testing testing the open 1975 i pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and
justice for all all right here we go please if you haven't done it already uh roll call please karen yes mr bazair
mr jones here mr riggs here mr crowley here mr gorgone here mayor Mullik here deputy Mayor McDade here mrs reed Mr lhome here mr padus here mr mr krippen
here thank you we have one resolution for approval dated 48205 it's 409 Elmyra LLC 409 Elmyra Street block 1060 lot
33 is there a motion to approve motion i'll second roll call okay uh we have a motion by Mr krippen seconded by Mr producus mr gorgone yes mayor Mullik yes
deputy Mayor McDade abstain mr crowley yes mr lhome yes mr riggs yes mr producus yes mr krippen yes mr jones yes thank you uh minutes we have
approvals first one is dated March 11 2025 is there a motion to approve so moved second roll call mr gorgone motions mr krippen seconds mr gorgone yes mayor Mullik uh
abstain deputy Mayor McDade approve mr crowley yes mr lenholm yes mr riggs abstain mr baducus yes mr krippen yes mr jones yes thank you second set of
minutes is dated March 25 2025 so moved is there a second uh second we have a motion by Mr gorgone seconded by Mr krippen mr gorgone yes mayor Mullik yes deputy Mayor McDade abstain
mr crowley yes mr lunhome abstain mr riggs abstain mr padus yes mr krippen yes mr jones yes thank you Karen i made a mistake on the minutes for March 11th i voted yes i I was not there i
abstained okay I'll make that correction thank you uh we have a couple housekeeping items we want to take place first uh we have a pretty big meeting this evening we want to uh approve our payment of bills earlier so we have two sets of bills anyone want to make a
motion to approve both sets at the same time make a motion to approve both sets sorry was that a second by Mr yes okay so a motion by Mr produces seconded by Mr krippen mr gorgon yes mayor Mullik
yes deputy Mayor McDade yes mr crowley yes mr lenholm yes mr riggs yes mr produces yes mr krippen yes mr jones yes thank you uh second item we would like to discuss is we're thinking about moving our
meeting here okay so I had um put forth a request um to consider moving the meeting time from 6:30 to an earlier time um for several reasons one for just to be able to um be mindful of the volunteer members of the committee from
a timing standpoint second of all this is staffed by city members so um I'm sure they would appreciate not having to start a meeting at 6:30 um we've made meeting time changes in other v for other uh meetings within the city and have seen no negative impact so we're taking an informal poll of the committee
at this point in time to consider whether or not moving the meeting to um would be open to 5:30 or 6:00 i uh will speak and I'm open to 5:30 or 6 o'clock i think starting earlier also allows for um you know our professionals
and us as board members to start to dive into some of the topics that we normally you know may not have time to um in an evening and yes it is we do have city staff here as well so it would certainly be greatly appreciated so I'm in support of that
um I'm fine with backing it up a bit but 5:30 would be a real challenge for me to get here six o'clock's fine okay fair enough six o'clock's fine with me okay all right okay so all right one thing I would say is six o'clock is better for me but also if you're going to move your
time up you might want to consider clarifying what your cuto off time is because in my experience you move it up and you think you're going to end earlier and what you end up doing is just being stuck there longer uh so give some thought to maybe setting if you if you you know yeah certainly 10 o'clock
now maybe 9:30 sure just I don't care i'm just giving you that heads up because I've seen that we will talk to we will talk internally and make sure that we have those parameters set forth thank you everyone for the time and consideration okay now we're up tonight's application is a view LLC 62nd
Avenue block 1012 lot 15.01 101 site plan site plan preliminary and final approval variance relief for hardship and substantial benefit you're on another item for this evening we this if the meeting goes for
a long period of time which it may we're going to cut it off around 10 o'clock okay so everybody knows ahead of time if we have to not in the middle of the sentence but we'll go we'll do it at a convenient time good evening Mr chairman members of the board appreciate your time here tonight
to briefly introduce myself my name is Peter Chicanius i am an attorney at the law firm of Highland Chapyro my office is located in Marlton New Jersey uh up in Burlington County uh my office represents the applicant AVU LLC i'll probably just refer to them as AVE or
the applicant from here on out with respect to this application as the chairman mentioned this is for preliminary and final major site plan approval with bulk variances uh to construct a new hotel on the property located at 62nd Avenue block 1012 lot
15.01 Kate May New Jersey uh I did want to briefly introduce the application discuss some of what the board is going to be hearing from our professionals just to kind of give you a brief introduction we're going to have four uh witnesses testifying here tonight we also have an a representative from the
applicant if necessary to answer certain questions but he doesn't anticipate testifying um quite yet first we're going to have our uh architect Mr steven Fenwick speak about the and you're already seeing some of the easel and the pictures up here what's there now versus what will be
there then we will have our traffic engineer Mr david Shropshshire testify as to the traffic and the parking we will then have Mr mike Marshall uh testify as to the operational standpoint how the how the hotel is actually going to operate and I'm sure some of the board members are aware we have been
before this board before with respect to this property and attempts to to construct a new hotel on this property before the operational aspect was the item that I think was probably missing from from those previous applications to kind of reflect how is this going to operate on a day-to-day basis with
respect to the number of employees uh trash recycling things like that and and Mr marshall is well-versed in not only the running of a hotel but also Kate May as his company also is very familiar and in fact runs and he'll clarify this if I'm incorrect but I believe he runs his company runs the in
of Kate May so he's very familiar with the area and and what the what the city needs um as for this particular and then finally our our last um witness is going to be Mr andrew Schaefer um who's going to be testifying both as our engineer and as our planner to kind of close
things out and discuss the positive and negative criteria uh this property again 62nd Avenue is zoned C3 Hotel Motel District and I would note that that it expressly permits the hotel that we're proposing uh here tonight it also
permits eating establishments drinking establishments and quote uh uses which are clearly incidental and accessory to the uses by right including dining or other service facilities provided such uses may not occupy the equivalent of more than 25% of the total floor area of
the principal use and one thing that our engineer will testify to is that the proposed amenities on site will be limited to will um not com will not be more than 25% of the total floor area of the principal use uh the other thing
that I wanted to touch on a little bit was the type of uh hotel that my my client is proposing here tonight because it's a little different from some of the previous applications that no doubt many of the members of the public are familiar with here tonight this is proposed to be an all-inclusive luxury
res resort style hotel which means that every amenity in the hotel is going to be limited strictly to hotel guests and per Mr mike Marshall as he'll testify to later enforcing that in an all-inclusive style is actually relatively simple you know I I even had some questions at the
beginning of this process thinking well how can you enforce that and there's a number of processes by which we're going to do that and he'll testify to what those are um from the beginning everything is going to be incorporated in the price prior to the hotel the parking itself and I'm going to touch on
this a little bit um a little bit later because it actually deals with the variances that we need here tonight the first relates to the number of parking spaces uh according to Mr hurles's review letter uh and I know he'll go over this but I just wanted to touch on this a little bit the number of spaces
that we need are 135 spaces what we're proposing are 65 spaces on site and with the potential for 79 stacked spaces uh essentially 14 additional spaces through the the the act of stacking and that's the second variance is actually the use
of stacked parking which is not precisely uh permitted in uh Kate May there's two things I want to touch on with respect to the parking the we're not necessarily contesting the calculation of 135 spaces i don't want this to turn into into an adversarial
type of scenario and God willing it won't but one of the things I want to make clear to the board is that that 135 number it for lack of a better way of putting it operates almost under the assumption that the amenities such as the restaurant and the bar area are
going to be open to the public so for example say those amenities were going to be open to the public they're not but let's assume for the sake of argument that they would be that's the number of spaces that we need is that 135 the reason why we think we can certainly meet the criteria for the variance
related to the parking is because this is a hotel that's going to have 56 sleeping rooms which means that the the 65 spaces we're proposing and 79 stacked is more than sufficient to cover the the patrons of the hotel which the the
parking is going to be limited strictly to those patrons nobody off the street is going to be coming on to this site for any reason because of its all-inclusive style and the other thing I wanted to mention with respect to the stack parking uh Mr hurles's review letter from March 27th does indicate
that that requires a variance from section 525-49 C1 mr hurles I think that might have been a typo because I think that deals with the number of spaces for dogs c1 is residential I think so I think it's A1 is it A1 no it's going to be C2
c2 okay four okay so the one thing that I'll mention and again our our engineer and planner will testify this a bit more is there is a con there is a circumstance in Kate May where stack parking is allowed that has to deal with Victorian hotels that's a stated exception and what's interesting is that
if you look at the exception which I believe is found in section 529 525 excuse me,-49F um the requirements for any exception for Victorian hotels is that stacked parking must be if it's going to have
stacked parking valet services must be provided as the exclusive system for parking vehicles and shall be required to delineate the parking spaces by paint lines or markers furthermore each stack sparking parking space shall be at least 9 feet by 18 feet in dimension while my
client's hotel is not proposed to be Victorian it will comply with the remaining requirements of stack parking as it relates to Victorian hotels and Victorian hotels are defined in the ordinance as hotels with upwards of 100 rooms so we're dealing with a scenario where we're dealing with about half the
rooms where stack parking is initially uh anticipated and we're proposing those stack parking spaces with the understanding that we're going to comply with the other requirements for stack parking which is valet services as the exclusive system for parking and that the spaces be 9 by18 um the valet
services themselves that's the other thing I wanted to quickly mention to the board is that there will be no self-p parking by the hotel guests on site which means once you come on site for your beginning of your stay it's going through valet in order to ensure to to
quote the ordinance to ensure the safe and convenient access during all seasons so those are the two variances that we're dealing with there was a third one mentioned in the review letter with respect to the site triangle however I think our engineer is going to testify that we intend to comply with
that so there's really going to be no variance there as far as I know but he can testify that a little bit better and beyond that the only other thing I wanted to say as respect to the the the particulars of the application are we've been in correspondence with the board professionals or I should say my
professionals have been in correspondence with the board professionals about this application since it was initially filed which was some time ago a majority of the remainder of the requests of the board planner and engineer we intend to comply with in
terms of it the suggested conditions and other requirements if once we go through it we we will be able to say comfortably that a very large percentage of that I would even say pro approximately 90 to 95% of that we intend to comply with whether it's a condition of approval or
what have you so we want to understand that we're taking the board's concerns the public's concerns as much as possible very very seriously and we're not just being flippant with with this approach um beyond that I did want to just provide final comments i I know
I've been talking for a bit and I know we're looking at a long night so I'm going to try and keep this brief i want to make sure because I'm anticipating certain comments from members of the public and now I might be assuming here which I would apologize for but one of the things that I want to make clear to the board is that the appropriateness
the appropriateness excuse me of a hotel on site is not the question that we're facing here tonight a hotel is an expressly permitted use on site my client's intention to construct a new hotel on site has been clear for a number of years as again we've been
before this board a couple of times with respect to two prior applications so one of the things that I just want to make sure the board is clear on and I'm sure your attorney can correct me if he thinks I'm wrong is that the a hotel is permitted on site so the question isn't whether or not we can allow a hotel on
site and the mere existence of a variance because I one of the things I'm I'm I'm I'm sure the board might hear is that because they need a variance obviously they don't comply entirely with the ordinance therefore you should deny it i just want to make sure the board is clear that from a legal
standpoint the mere existence of a variance when viewed in the totality of the circumstances relating to the rest of the application what conditions the applicant has agreed to and things like that does not constitute sufficient grounds for permitted use to be denied for a non-permitted use before the
zoning board it's a bit different question but when you're dealing with an expressly permitted use something that the the city governing body has already deemed appropriate on at this location it's a bit different of a story in fact the appellet division has stated in in in one case and I thought it was said
quite nicely that quote there was nothing inherently evil or misguided about the grant of a variance where it is supported by proper proofs a variance is a legislativelymandated safety valve from the strict application of a zoning regulation so we're dealing with two
potential variances here tonight the remainder of the hotel that we're proposing complies in its entirety with the ordinance whether you're talking about SEACs impervious coverage in fact we're actually decreasing the impervious coverage as it exists now versus what um
will exist um if and when we get our approval here tonight so actually the impervious coverage is going to decrease and I would also note that I think some of the other departments within the city of Cape may recognize this because this application was recommended to be approved by the environmental commission
the fire department the police department public works and the shade tree commission all of them recommended approval of this application now the shade tree commission and the fire department did have certain conditions ones we would agree to readily um but I would also note that the environmental
commission actually quote commended us for the use of seaside tolerant native plants in the landscaping plan so that's I think the a good perspective through which we can view this application again we have four witnesses here tonight i've talked more than enough I believe so
without further ado I'm going to bring up our first witness uh Mr steve Fenwick who will be the applicant's architect good evening Mr fenwick do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the true stuff you got yes I do thank you sir i do too Mr okay
sorry so will I how's it all right go ahead you want me to start go ahead Steve you know the drill introduce yourself okay so uh yeah I'm supposed to I guess uh tell you about my background and qualifications so been an architect and planner in the state of New Jersey for an awful long time
qualifications are okay you're good thank you Michael appreciate it makes it simple okay um I'm very familiar with uh with the site um and the project uh we've been working on this job for more
than 10 years I think um but just to familiarize uh everybody freshen up real quick this is the existing Jetty Motel and um so Steve just for the sake of the record I believe it's rebarked that A1 right uh
you Yeah you want Oh it is marked A1 look at that and uh um I'll just show it to the public everybody knows what it looks like it's a 35 room motel you know uh ground level parking uh doesn't meet flood codes or anything like that so
okay so this is the proposed building it's um in the uh it's it's it's a it's a a new hotel uh it's going to be a an exclusive luxury hotel it it's in the C3 zone it's a not only it's a permitted
use by being permitted it's an encouraged use there's not much else permitted and hotel motel run up and down Beach Drive um it it has uh 53 units and 56 sleeping rooms
um and um and Steve very quickly just to make that clear that means there's 53 rooms but three of them had two bedrooms is that correct that's correct that's correct yes and that relates to the parking count which I'll leave to others um and so I have two boards here there
i'm going to try to share the information so that everybody sees it i I just realized that I'm going to have trouble flipping this baby here can I ask are these exhibits or are these part of the application we're going to make them exhibits Miss Keenan okay thank you a2 and it's rendering at the proposed
hotel yes want me to mark that a2 yeah please yes [Music] so so it's a it's a it's a traditional building it's it meets the bulk requirements it meets the setbacks um
the ground level is all for parking it's you know below the design flood elevation um as any new building on this site would have to thanks Manny um this is uh the ground floor and
the uh I call it the main level the first floor plan and um discussion was made i'll try to keep it short about the the public areas are in purple i I don't think I have to point it out to the public in the What document are we
pointing to uh I was going to say we got a A3 make it this is the ground and first floor plan uh it's marked as sheet A1 but we'll mark it as A3 is this the ground floor plan ground and first floor plan yeah these were submitted documents yeah I understand i
just Yeah yeah I got it i marked it A3 thanks sir okay and it shows the parking layout and the engineers and traffic consultants will talk about the parking more than me uh you come into the foyer it's uh uh you know restricted by flood rigs by the way you come in you come
into the building you're in the lobby and you check in and uh the access to the building the rooms the elevator that'll be discussed by uh uh other experts um the pink areas are the
rooms and um the green areas of storage and the important thing I guess is that the uh amenities which are the retail restaurant bar fitness spa rooftop bar
restrooms and pantry are 25% of the total floor area of the building and that is indicated on this drawing and it's colorcoded as well did you say the purple is storage the purple the the purple is public
areas purple public area yes yes and green is storage the green is storage and that I'm going to turn the page and you'll see that further illustrated [Applause] he's going to say right yeah that was
smart mhm okay um so again the purple areas are amenity spaces and um the pink areas are the rooms the brown area here is the pool deck um so this is an open area um it
opens out to the the south and the west um provide a nice environment for the the pool deck the pool is uh you know it's not on the ground the existing pool is right on the ground this is not uh so
it's it's sequestered in a way by the by the building itself and they'll talk about the access and Steve very quickly these this is the second and third floor plan and we'll mark this [Applause] A4 all right this next page are the
Beach Avenue and Second Avenue elevations and we'll mark that A5 i don't know the solution but I know that the public can't see any of the things you're showing it has the same thing on the other he's That's what Manny's I can't see what the
public's good that's what Manny said i thought you were going to tell what a great idea yeah it's a great idea i couldn't get one day I I'll I I'll stop being a technophobe and I'll start using the screens but until then they made me do in summer and it work great
it's all good because usually people can't see um okay so this drawing is uh I don't know how pertinent it is tonight but it's a it's a you know a refined drawing of the of the elevation of the buildings
uh and you know it's uh it's a first class luxury building um it's been reviewed and approved carefully by the HPC um it meets the bulk requirements i'm sure everybody thinks it's big and
high compared to what's there but it's not that big and it's not that high i don't know i just drove by a house back there it was like I don't know how high it was ginormous but um well Steve very quickly meets the bulk requirements and it meets the setbacks and uh um well
Steve very quickly I think the the height of the hotel and the copa actually are compliant with the with the ordinance correct yes yeah we meet the bulk requirements okay do we have a document from the HBC that says it's approved uh we must somewhere but I may have to go back because it was a while
ago we don't have it we don't have there's nothing provided in this application well what we what we can probably do is to the ex I believe there was a conceptual approval some time ago to the extent any additional approvals are required by the HPC we would certainly that is condition of approval
and the conceptual approval we did we would also provide that as well we did not it's only a recent occurrence that we actually got written approvals from the HPC for conceptual approval so you may have gotten your approval at a time when there wasn't a writing oh okay it was very confusing years ago Chris
Gillans became the attorney So if Chris wasn't the attorney there wasn't a written conceptual approval okay but that's what and to obviously we did we got conceptual approval but the I know the HPC doesn't give final until you get planning board approval so again to the extent any additional approvals
are needed by the HPC we would certainly agree to that as a condition of approval yeah I probably have something in my file i'm sure I do i was you know happy to get that approval obviously so I'll look i I I sent an email to you Peter and I asked you if you had HPC approval
and you said at this time the applica applicant has not received any approvals from the HPC regarding the project that said the applicant is aware the final HPC approval will likely be a condition of planning board well that's I I must have been mistaken i I was aware that
conceptual approval was obtained some time ago oh it was definitely before my time to be quite honest with you with this application but once again to the extent we need it we would certainly agree to that as condition of approval yeah it was definitely obtained because I believe me I would know if it wasn't
i remember your understanding if they make any other than very very minor changes you kind of have to come back here because you're seeking finals i I doesn't that necessarily if if it's certainly design changes of what materials we can use in obviously if it
if they increase the height or things like that then materials materials Yeah exactly so and to the extent though if if it alters the bulk variances in any way or anything excuse me the bulk uh requirements in any way yes we would have to come back we're aware of that that's not our intention hopefully but
we're certainly aware of that requirement yeah we we we don't expect you know we don't expect any changes so okay so this is uh I don't know is it my A6 I believe
yes and this is the it says it's the north and west elevations building section and unit plans and Steve just for the sake of the of the record uh this is the same design that received conceptual approval from the HPC correct yes okay thank you
yes so th this drawing uh it shows the three different unit types there's a two-bedroom suite there's a one-bedroom suite and there's an efficiency suite um and those are uh listed on that earlier drawing that showed the the unit count
and room count um and well on the next drawing an important uh point comes up that um your engineer pointed out uh um so let me just finish with this this just shows the other two sides of the
building and it shows a section through the building at the top of the board it shows the open pool deck uh and uh basically you got three stories over parking okay
um the next drawing which I'll mark A7 for the record uh A7 will be the seating chart so our original submission uh showed a different seating plan and um Craig Carlos uh um correctly uh
indicated to us that the unit count that we that was included with the old seating plan was not the correct unit count that had been done by an interior designer of the seating
count in California right Manny and but he retired and they just his office just sent up the plan and we didn't check his the fact that he had changed the units the architectural plans govern and this is the seating plan so what sheet is
that this is A6 and it was uh submitted I think like two weeks ago or something aren't we on A7 i'm sorry prepared that plan is that your plan Mr fenway yes Greg it's essentially the same seating
areas as the prior submission but the prior submission included the whole building and the designers had why am I not surprised inadvertently changed the arrangement of some of the units so inappropriately they were the the
units are shown on the architectural plans governed but we missed that when we submitted and Steve if you can yes Mr james before you go any further everybody scrim let's make sure everybody's looking at the same document and we make clear what document we're working off of because I don't know that anybody has the right and my engineer
looks like I don't think I don't think that's that is not part of the package right the re most recent package that the board has and that's going to lead to confusion well I think what we can probably do I think to make it is Steve why don't you just kind of take them
through it um okay you know just kind of piece by piece before you do that okay fair enough so there was a seating plan that was recently submitted March 24 2025 that I reviewed that's part of my review memo my most recent review memo
that plan was prepared by Design Continuum Incorporated right that that plan is void okay void void null and void is there a difference in the seats that are on this versus what's on your plan you know I'm not sure Craig i'm not
totally sure there's the same number of seats i think it may be different at the at the bar i don't remember i can I can pull it out and check right now we have we have 29 at the bar 12 at the outdoor
patio tables for a total of 41 at the pool area that's the one just for the record the thing you've been referencing you're calling A6 but it's A7 as we marked no it's it's A7 yes it's our drawing A6 marked A7 it's called seating plans
concept design seating plans and it's dated 32725 all right so So we want to We did send it in i don't know if Karen got it you never got it Karen right you guys made me crazy no what I
think we can do then is to kind of just kind of again take them through what we're looking at now okay and we can kind of just to walk up and look at it i don't want to have you talking to me and I can't even see it if I was hoping that you would tell me that the seating plan on the most recent
was submitted that that was valid for the seating plan the other areas do not match up with Mr fenwick's plans and that's what the issue that I raised in my report so like there were different unit counts on the the entire floor in those on the
seating plans um that I raised an issue with so you're sure that that up there isn't what's here no not No it's not it's not that it's dated differently this is incorrect only the
Steve hold up where's this this is old just make sure this is old make sure you speak can I ask a Can I ask a question we don't know yet let me see if I have this straight the plan that we've been sent to study was dated March the 18th
2025 from from design Continuum Incorporated now you're telling us there's another seating plan that was March 25th i believe it was dated March 27th 27th and that's what we have here marked and we
don't have that this is what you have well again it's my understanding that it was uh brought in but Karen says she never received it and that would have been about two weeks ago i don't know if it was FedEx or hand
delivered i I don't really handle that stuff in the office we went between myself and uh the attorney's office regardless at this point in time for us to sit here and try and project our eyes to see that is impossible so if you want
us from my perspective if you want to continue with this I want to come up there and look at it yeah okay well I would part of the difficulty if you look over Mr carly's paperwork right like hours um and has pen marks all over that trying to understand it and do it and now he's looking at you like I need
another like two hours over whatever it is you're going to have me do because he does look at it i I I appreciate that and I respect that i I can try to explain it quickly and then come back and show it to you how about that i can actually put I don't think that's going to work
i I I have no objection take a five minute break or 10-minute break everybody can because there's two copies of it so one up there one for us and one for the public and the board can look at it and everyone can take 10 minutes and look at it and I would advise comfortable with that your team should
take a look at this seating plan and see what changed and let us know what changed on that good idea can I borrow that Craig because I can't find my file board let's look at our side republic can look at your side if you want i would ask the board not to discuss it with each other while you're off the
record just look at it can you say that again the board discuss it while the record's closed so just talk to yourself can we get on microphones off please uh board members please turn your mics off please
senator that's hoping you would tell us i'm sorry i I didn't have this to say that well just go verify that and we can end this confusion right now and say that okay you know what i I think it's the same so
I I think it's the same so if I can just verify it this looks the same but that's not on the drawing that we that we have what's not this is not on it yes it is this is your drawing that you got oh so it says
29 and then it says 12 so over here 12 and 41 total so it is the same yes it thank God it's the same oh we they made me crazy to get it in here two
weeks ago i know i don't know what happened anyway and then this plant I'm sorry this Oh it's they're both the same drawing except this is there the
All right really There's a little separate [Music] [Music] We're not there [Music] you ready to go again mayor you ready all right everybody can we sit down now
we'll get started again please yes luckily I can't lose any more hair it's gone uh all right everybody can we have some silence and we'll get started again everybody turn your mics on up front okay sorry for this confusion i'd like
to try to clarify this as simply as possible the plans that were in your packet they were labeled design continuum incorporated um they are correct as to the seating but they are incorrect as to the
units so the seating plan are the same and the architectural plans govern the actual number and arrangement of units so we're actually I wasn't sure
that they were the same but I just checked Craig's plans and the seating is the seating I know that was an important point that Craig made in our application and uh I I didn't expect this to happen but because
we did in my mind made a hurried submission to the board there was some period of time and somehow it it fell through the cracks um very quickly Steve I just want to make sure that the board understood what you just said if they have any follow-up questions craig if
you have any follow-up questions I just want to make sure that everybody kind of understands what happened and what governs so I just want to what I what the the notes my notes reflect which usually gets turned into some part of the resolution so does Mr herurles review the design continuum plan dated
March 18 2025 this plan is actually the same as A7 except the units are different therefore for the seating the board may rely upon the March 18 2025 plan they reviewed perfect right and that's called out as furniture layout so that's which we
should only rely on it for and that so the answer that they gave is the answer that I was hoping that the architectural plans that we've been relying on all this time govern with regards to the room count and the room configurations and the areas which is very important
because correct there is a 25 max 25% maximum percentage of the building that can be dedicated to the accessory uses on site the architecture plans have been reviewed and show that they are right up against that 25% maximum um so but
you're comfortable with my my two sentence summary of the last 20 minutes yes okay a point of clarification Craig you said um first floor furniture layout it also should include the second the third floor furniture layout right they gave us two sheets it's the first and
the third there's no seating on the second floor that's why I So so the seating issue is covered on these two sheets yes we're relying on their that to is part of their testimony yes that's correct that's correct yes and these two
sheets is the March 18th 2025 plan right i think that concludes my testimony unless you have anything more for me to say no I think anybody has any questions unless the board has any further questions for Mr fenwick uh we'll turn it over to our traffic
engineer seeing none Steve thank you appreciate it you're welcome thank you i'm going to mark the March 18th plan A8 just because I'm mentioning it in here so let's just Do you want to do A8 and A9 just for both sheets
oh I thought it's not a two sheet document it's a different things no it's a two-sheet document but if you want to keep it as one okay that's fine a8 it is uh just to before the architect leaves Steve we are going to hear from your witnesses about how these numbers were
calculated yes our engineer and planner is going to be testifying last and he's going to try and kind of bring it all home and bring it all together essentially batting cleanup okay and if you have any questions of me later I'm sure I'll be available you know yes Steve please don't leave
i get why you might want to but please don't all right Dave um you know the drill introduce yourself discuss your qualifications i swear affirm the testimony you're about to give is the truth old truth and nothing but the true self you got i do uh Dave Shropshshire
Shrofessional Engineer professional planner in the state of New Jersey uh traffic engineering transportation planning uh that's what our expertise is i appear before this board uh and over 200 throughout the state of New Jersey and been qualified as you're fine thank you thank you
take it away okay uh we prepared a uh parking assessment could you just move that mic a little closer please thank you we prepared a parking assessment dated March 19th 2025 uh to evaluate this and uh I'll I'll try
to briefly go over uh what is uh I guess the important po components of this uh the uh requirement uh which has already been stated but I'll restate it uh for the 56 bedrooms uh would be 65 spaces uh
the additional uh requirement for employees uh would bring it up to uh a requirement of uh 75 spaces so the overall uh requirement uh on the site uh
for those two components will be 75 when we add on the restaurant bar seating to that that adds 60 more spaces to the overall requirement so that's almost half of what is required brings it up to 135 and a key component to my assessment
and my evaluation of this is the management component that says this restaurant bar seating is an amenity uh and for hotel guests only uh so from a traffic standpoint from the parking standpoint it would be inconsistent to
consider those demands together as independent uses uh on the site because they are integrated uh and that's going to be a a dictate of how this hotel operates can I just pause you for a second i just I may be wrong about this
but what I wrote down what he said was that the 56 bedrooms require 65 spaces i'm not sure that that's right so I think you kind of like I you used the right numbers but they got in the wrong places i think it's 56 requires 56 yeah then there's 19 employees and that's the
75 parking requirement is based on the number of sleeping rooms so there's said that's 56 so we don't want to talk about units because there are a couple of two-bedroom units there's 56 sleeping rooms that require 56 parking and he said 65
and I apologize just can you do that again because it went in and it went in wrong and it's the basis of everything we're going to do for the next and and I apologize because your ordinance when when it comes to um taking a look at the bedrooms or or actually sleeping beds as
kind of an independent from the units all of our data basically is compiled on unit counts as opposed to bedrooms so So when you have a door into a unit but there's two bedrooms in there that's that wasn't the problem you said there's 56 bedrooms across 65 and No just go
slower yeah I will there's 51 bedrooms no three 50 There's 50 single bedroom units and then there are three twobedroom units that comes to 56 which would require 56 spaces that's right okay then there's 19 employees per large
per the largest shift correct per the largest shift which is the other requirement uh and that would bring the total up uh to 75 required spaces essentially 56 + 1975 and then add 60 on top of that if we
look at the restaurant bar seating completely independent uh of what is being proposed uh as part of an amenity for this and for hotel guests only so that that forms the requirement when we looked at the uh what we generally look
at is the Institute of Transportation Engineers parking generation manual to try and identify what we think the projected demand would be uh for this style hotel um I'll read you what the land use says for this type of hotel i I
typically don't do this but I just want to make sure the record's clear and under uh the IT the Institute of Transportation Engineers parking generation manual the description of the hotel is as follows
a hotel is a place of lodging that provides sleeping accommodations and supporting facilities such as a fullervice restaurant concierge service valet parking cocktail lounge meeting rooms
banquet room and convention facilities a hotel typically provides a swimming pool or another recreational facility such as a fitness room so you've already heard Mr fenwick describe it that's what this
is based on it definitions it fits when we look at what the IT data says the 85th percentile parking demand for this type of facility is
0.98 spaces or vehicles per room so if we do the math on the per room basis based on it the ratio that we have provided on site is 1.23 23 spaces
per room so we we far exceed what it would say the parking demand is going to be for the exact definition of what this hotel use is and Dave very quickly just so the board is clear can you take them through what it is how they come up with those numbers and then just kind of go
from there it the Institute of Transportation Engineers is our professional society to where we would do a parking survey and we would provide that information to the institute and they would compile it in terms of trip generation because there's a trip generation manual that I know I've
testified before this board related to that and they also have a parking generation manual so that data comes from professionals like us and some of the data that we provide actually have provided form the the the basis for the data that I'm giving you and it's fairly
standard to rely on that data in order to generate the report such as yours correct corre that's correct okay um question u on pa page three4 this is what you're talking about that first full paragraph
uh and correct me if I'm wrong because it seems to me as I read that paragraph you're basing your calculations on on the number of rooms that are being occupied or projected to be occupied which then generates the need for a
parking space is that right correct right why aren't you also factoring in the employee parking spaces because under the IT data they don't independently look at employees uh independent of the No I understand that
that's what your requirement is but what we're trying to do is determine what the demand will be for those parking spaces and this data is based on a per room basis for everything for everything that's associated with a hotel including
employees you lost me i thought I'm finished though well okay you can finish but I still want to go back to this paragraph because I still don't see how you've factored in employees if nothing in that No I'm not factoring in employees the
Institute of Transportation Engineers would take a hotel like this do we would do a parking survey it's not split up by anything other than rooms so whatever that demand is we give that to the institute and they do the division based
on number of rooms so we have to take that and then we have to calculate the impact of our ordinances on parking requirements for employees and come up with a combined number of parking spaces that's how your ordinance comes up with a requirement for parking i'm trying to tell you what the demand would be for
those parking spaces okay so that and ironically this is always like a big rub even in our office to the definition of supply versus the definition of demand your ordinance requires supply i'm trying to tell you what is going to be
in those parking spaces right so based on the data okay um just one more question on that paragraph though but you don't have any benchmark this says a hotel it doesn't say an all-inclusive resort it doesn't say how many uh seats are in the restaurant bar lounge
anything that's correct so if you know if you're adding in all of those accommodations in this hotel you're doubling up the number of parking spaces based on the design of a 162 seat restaurant actually that's not true based on the data that is compiled by the institute
it would be that I read you that paragraph that has all the amenities and actually very consistent amenities that this hotel is proposing and with those amenities that that ratio is what the demand will be and in this in this condition there's never any public
parking available so have you ever been to a hotel where there's not public parking also available you come for dinner or you come for a meeting place or a banquet or a wedding well because the all-incclusive is really what's driving
your definition of how this property will be managed that's correct correct okay so what I'm saying to you is this isn't defining an all-inclusive hotel so you're kind of comparing in my opinion apples and oranges here number one and number two I've never been to a hotel
quote unquote that does not have some public parking accommodation because people are coming from the outside right so you're saying that this is this is what we're supposed to benchmark against and I'm saying it's not the same definition of what you're proposing for the use of this property i I can read
the definition again oh no i have it right here in front of me the definition is very clear that that's exactly what this is okay all right and and one thing I do want to make clear to the board is that in this particular case no there will be no public interaction that's what it's quite literally designed to be
okay we're going to hear testimony on that correct yes from two separate people and Mr shropshshire and it's going to be exclusive across the board that that's there's going to be no public interaction at this restaurant i mean excuse me at this hotel all right so all right when we get to that thank you sure right
um so uh that's the uh the Institute of Transportation Engineers which we typically rely on would say we have enough parking and their justification for the parking variance that were granted i want to go back to the supply side of things dave very quickly because I just want to make sure the record is
clear because I think your question was a very good question essentially what you're saying and I want to make sure the public is clear on this as well when the the IT defines hotel it defines it as including many of
the amenities that we're proposing here tonight correct that's correct and in incorporating the peak demand at 0.98 per room as opposed to the 1.23 that we're offering that is meant to incorporate in addition to even though it's calculated per room it's meant to
incorporate and include the amenities for the patrons of those rooms that correct that's correct okay and I I'll make one other note um because the Institute of Transportation Engineers comes up with new additions of the parking manual uh this project's been
going on long enough that we actually have a new addition the sixth edition that I utilize for this i actually looked back at the fifth edition because I was concerned when I saw that 85th percentile at N98 spaces per room
because I recalled that the demand uh was higher in a previous edition and that is correct it was higher and uh I'm I'm thinking well the reason that it would actually be lower is the advent of Uber and things that would actually
decrease the parking demand associated with this type of facility so the actual demand rate has come down uh in the latest data that has been put together with it if if I may on that I I think when I hear
uh valet parking cocktail lounge m meeting rooms banquet room convention facilities that doesn't really sound like a Cape May hotel necessarily i I mean I I I think any study is going to vary very much based on is this a
roadside hotel or is this a downtown New York City hotel well you know in a New York City hotel you're going to have to cab subway you know all of those i will try to answer that question okay I appreciate that because the next section
in the report uh deals with a survey that we did a while ago uh at the existing Jetty Hotel uh or motel and uh what we found there was a parking demand on-site parking demand of 27 parking spaces when there was 30 occupied rooms
that ratio is 0.9 it's about the same i looked at other data that we've done for uh another uh hotel along Beach Avenue over time from 19 or 2014 151 19 we did several
surveys uh up until uh 2023 all of those parking ratios are right around one space per room which would include everything that's being generated by the hotel room and all the staffing so Dave do you recall which hotel that was it
was the La Mir was the one that over and over again came up with the same basically the same on-site parking demand um so so anyway that to me that's another justification that this data looks pretty good for this type of hotel
in this location which I think might address the concern that you have that this might be a different animal than the survey data that was contained in the Institute of Transportation Engineers data um so so okay with all of
that said we do have 65 spaces on site however uh we're proposing a valet operation the valet operation would add 14 additional spaces to this stack parking which I believe we need a variance for but we do meet the criteria
as was read earlier with regard to how that is designed and you've heard that this is going to be a valet uh all-inclusive hotel so another component of this that's critical not only to have the restaurant bar seating be hotel only
is having this valet operation and again this is becoming more and more standard with hotels that we do analyses for um so with that given actually the parking supply that we're providing is 79
parking spaces with a operational and efficient valet system which actually exceeds your ordinance requirements for the hotel with the employees which would be 75 uh spaces on top of that uh because the
Jetty Motel today has backout parking on both Second and on Beach we're going to recapture not recapture we're going to create at least six more parking spaces on the street that would be for public parking not necessarily related to any
demands associated with the hotel but anybody who wants to park in this area uh I did take a run out today tonight to take a look at what the county's done along Beach over uh the recent time i guess there's some improvements going on
there actually the city Oh the city's doing this the improvements well um it seems like this is one of the lone half blocks that doesn't have any on street parking uh on Beach and I'm not sure why that couldn't be incorporated if that's
what the city wanted to do so there might be the opportunity to get actually more uh on street parking for the public not associated with this hotel just through the elimination of the backout parking on Beach we definitely will get it on second uh because of elimination
of the backout parking on second from a traffic safety perspective it's way way better to have and I think your own ordinances recognize this uh to have uh a a a structured parking that has a
designated entry a designated exit and not backing out onto a city street or it's it's just something that's uh trying to get removed uh and this will remove a substantial amount of backout parking so from a safety perspective
that's a benefit that's going to be created through this so I think all of that taken together and you'll hear planning testimony but from my perspective from a traffic perspective I think the parking variance has justification i don't think it's going to be uh any detriment to the public
good with regard to this parking variance i don't think there's any impairment to your planning ordinance or your master plan with this parking variance that's being suggested um and there's the possibility that there that's actually going to be more public parking added to the overall system
critical to the the entire situation is the management plan that has the restaurant bar seating for hotel guests only and having an effective valet system for the parking which is able to
be done based on the design may I ask a question with regard to your parking survey i'm curious as to why you chose uh a period of two weeks after the state lifted the co ban for people to be able to come and stay in hotels that ban
was lifted and for the first time around June 26 hotels in the city were able to take in guest and your parking survey is dated July 30th of that July 11th seems a rather odd time to base your argument on well well I'm actually not basing my
argument on that uh because we don't need that public parking however we provided that data when it looked like we may need public parking uh for but you do understand that there's a difference even between the two the property at that end of town
versus Lamir if you understand that neighborhood at that end of town in east it's not a residential neighborhood in the same context and concentration as it is down at the Jetty Hotel understood so it so the the utilization especially just using that as sort of a barometer
and looking at it and comparing those two properties again um very different just from one end of town to the other well actually um just so I can just respond to that all we're looking at is parking demand for a hotel La Mer which
has 162 rooms at the point we did our surveys with I think it was 140 seat restaurant that was open to the public and the on street parking is more than on site parking lot well I'm just saying I gave you the demand so so anyway it I
think it was relative data supports the IT data supports the data we got from the jetty and and I just want to you know the the idea of the surveys that were done in 2020 it was a different application when we did that i could have neglected to put that in the report
but since there was data related to the on street parking conditions in the whole area I thought I would add that uh with regard to the actual surveys that we did of the onsite parking for Jetty we made sure that we counted how many spaces were occupied and also knew the
amount of rooms that were occupied so we could get a a good20 yes correct okay that's sort of what I'm saying that's not I don't consider that period of time to be a real indication of business in Kate May and what July 11th week looks
like in Kate May in 2024 or 2025 well I could have just you could have skipped that whole thing because we're not relying on that parking a little confusing to me so thank you what we could potentially do and I guess I mean this sometimes will happen and this is more of a suggestion than it is a
recommendation there are sometimes and and as a condition of approval what boards will require and it's up to the boards you know it's it's at their if it pleases them to do so is a follow-up study to confirm the findings of the survey as found in 2020 to provide the
board with an added le level of comfort that the 0.98 per room park peak parking demand that was reflected in 2020 that seems to be consistent in Laamir is still consistent and uh to this day so again if the board would like an added
layer of comfort there we can certainly provide an additional parking survey as a condition of approval in relation to this application that's something we'd certainly be willing to to do can you include the weather when you do that include the weather when you do that yeah you know the interesting thing was
with La Mer we did it over three weekends so that we made sure that we did not get overcome by a weather event uh so we got I thought we got really good data there i was hoping it would be during a hurricane and just you know but you know
uh so yeah we will when we do traffic counts when we do parking counts we make sure that we're getting the peak of the peak uh or at least we make our best attempt and one of the things Dave I just want to make sure the record was clear when you brought up Laamir you weren't necessarily comparing what we're
doing with Laamir in terms of where it's located or the hotel design itself so it was really just in the context of a hotel in Cape May consistent with your study on this property from 2020 in Laamir the parking the peak parking demand tends to be about 0.98 or 0.9 per
room yeah maybe the best way that I can state it is if we provided the data from Jetty from 2020 and LAR from many years it would fit right into the IT data
okay but however and correct me if I'm wrong here but it seems to me that you're you haven't done a study that captures what's happened at the Cove in the last 5 years in terms of usage beach usage
surfers families the entire complex at the Cove is materially different than it was 5 years ago because we don't need that public parking yeah perfect yeah that's that's kind of and if if and Dave correct me if I'm wrong in any of this
but that was much when we applied when we filed an application in 2021 what we necessarily what we proposed was a very similar application but we said the amenities were going to be open to the public and obviously there was considerable push back and that application was denied at that time we
were certainly reliant on the public parking in order to cover the the variance aspect what we're saying here is that what we designed in this particular application is designed to actually contend with that by removing the need of public parking altogether
for our operation and in addition add at least six spaces on Second Avenue by removing the backout parking that currently exists so not only will zero patrons of this hotel be using public parking but there will be six additional
spaces for the public to use during peak hours and that's just on Second Avenue with the removal of backout parking as Mr shropshshire mentioned we're going to be removing the backout parking on Beach Avenue as well and of course we would welcome additional spaces there as well
so the parking spaces that you're going to pro maybe this is a operational question for one of your other witnesses sure the spaces on Second Avenue then you you're saying they're open to the public they're public parking spaces there'll be meters on them there's meters everywhere else down there um and
yet the the the design of the building that's the front entrance to the building and there's going to be valet parking only which means you're going to be stacking cars up along that side for your two valet people to get to them i don't know if that's an operational
question or actually the the way the parking is designed uh they enter right in and can go all the way down to the end aisle and there's enough room there for six or so cars which would be way more than would be anticipated to be there at any one time for the valet
service so there's there's distance within the building itself to actually have those cars off the street there's no need for reliance so there won't be a valet stack on the street no no need no that's something we would want to write into this plan if we ever did it because otherwise if you don't do it those
aren't public spaces correct we would agree to that as if you want to make that an express condition that there's no stack parking on we'll disbelieve you i just want to see it in writing i I get it trust but verify i understand i'm an attorney by trade that's all we have to do every day all day
and those spaces would be metered the ones that are on street also so I mean that I mean I assume they would be consistent with all the rest of what happens on people and Dave I think you and I both saw that there was some concern from certain members of the public that there was a concern that
actually 70 on street spaces need to be needed to be provided can you just maybe provide some clarity there no I mean uh if we're going with the parking requirement for the rooms and the employees under the ordinance of the city that's 75 spaces and we have valet
parking for 79 so in effect we meet the requirement we more than meet the anticipated demands from the surveys that we've done and from the Institute of Transportation Engineers so there's no need for any public parking for any of this and again the the key thing here
is the integration of the restaurant bar seats as an amenity for hotel guests only and valet operation that's the critical components of this and that's a perfect segue I think into our unless Mr has I just wanted to clear something up
and I think Dennis asked the question and the mayor sort of asked asked a similar question but the IT is an accepted engineering manual that we use to estimate parking um and the way the
it captures this data is they do surveys all over the country at various sized hotels and they plot the data based the number of parking spaces versus the number of hotel units is am I correct in that that's correct so they plot this data and they come up with percentiles
that we can best guess how what's the parking demand going to be for a specific hotel that has x amount of units so we can plot that and kind of come up with an estimated now they may not that those estimates are taken all
over the country and may not capture localized summer beach peak hotel rates but now Mr shopire is using some data that he's done at the La Mer now we recognize that the La Mer neighborhood
is not the same as where where this uh proposed application is um this where your proposal is has certainly more parking constraints than what the La Mer does and I think you recognize that but um the I think their argument and their
justification for this parking variance hinges on whether their operational plan functions so I think that's where you should be concerned with so and I hope I answer answered everyone's questions with regards to it that's why it's not a
it's not a definitive number that's set in stone it is an average of things taken all over the country and may not represent localized conditions so and the and the questions are going to come down when we discuss operation okay thank you
and with that note we'll bring up our operations manager Mr mike Marshall yep absolutely whichever go ahead you want Just do we want to swear him in yeah and then I'm going to I just like to be particular about what expertise we're
putting him in for okay it's not typical hotel operation and management sir do you swear for him to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth sup God yes I do okay now your qualifications because this is everybody wants to hear what you're going to say yeah okay uh my name is
Mike Marshall i currently live in Ocean City Maryland um I'm the CEO of TPG Hotels and Resorts we manage approximately 140 hotels in 30 different states uh a lot of them are independent boutique type of properties like this
hotel uh in fact we have a division called the Entra Collection i don't know if you shared that deck with them or not no that was that wasn't part of the application okay so I know it's not part of the application but um I've been in the hotel business since I was 15 years
old uh I started as as a dishwasher at the Holiday Inn in Salsbury Maryland um my father at the time was starting a hotel management company uh which became Marshall Management Hotels and Resorts um I took that over from him and I
bought him out in 2012 i sold my company Marshall Hotels and Resorts to TPG Hotels and Resorts uh three years ago so but I I was retained as a CEO of the company so I've been managing multiple
properties i mean I've probably been involved in well over 400 different properties over the course of my career everything from again as a dishwasher to a general manager to a director of operations uh to just building a company
when I sold my company I had 75 hotels that I sold to the management of to TPG um we continue to grow and look at different projects um I'm flying to Indianapolis tomorrow to look at a hotel in downtown Indianapolis i mean this is
all I do um you say how many uh of the hotels you're involved with are all-incclusive as opposed to open to the public um just a handful uh one of them would be on Block Island up in Rhode Island um
where you have to specifically take a ferry to get over there and whatnot um so it's a handful but as I as I'll try to explain how many people have been on a cruise ship well hold up real quick let's just unless the board has any further questions unless there's anything you'd
kind of want to go through a little bit more I would just offer him as an expert in the field of hotel management operations expert an expert in the hotel operations and management okay currently TPG manages the inn at Cape May uh we at
one point when we were Marshall Hotels we managed the Jetty also for a couple of years so I mean I've I remember coming up here over 20 years ago to meet with the board directors of the Marquee de Lafayette so I' been in and out of
Kate May for many years we've had hotels throughout the state of New Jersey over that time as well i'm okay with the witness at the board having any other questions can I Can I just ask Can you What's the management company again k TPG t as in Tom tom P as in Peter g as
in goat yes got it very good go ahead go questions no we didn't just for qualifications that's all we're Yeah let them speak so anyway I I wanted to ask who's been on a cruise ship
all right when you when you make a reservation for a cruise line whether you go through a travel agent or through them directly you pay in advance when you arrive at the cruise ship they hand you a set of keys or a key fob uh to get in that's your passport to get through
the ship and once you have that that's how you charge everything they typically ask you to provide a credit card for any incidentals which might be at an extra drink at the bar or to use at the gift shop or the spa or what have you this is
the same concept we'll know in advance who's coming we're going to know what their meals are choices are going to be they're going to pull up to the front they've already paid their key fob or we
could use an RFD key card as the ability to get in and out of not only the building but their guest room so they're handed that when they check in they'll probably be asked for another form like a credit card for any
incidentals that card or that FOB will be timed once you're supposed to check out it no longer works so it's only while you're on property that that you've paid to be on property will that card work and again we we'll know in
advance what your meal choices are everything is it it's it's it's all included you don't have to worry about anything you just you make your reservation pay in advance check in drop your car off valet take it downstairs
and then you enjoy your stay our job as management is to make sure that that stays as enjoyable as possible that the experience at the hotel and in Cape May is something that that they'll want to go home and tell all their friends about
because in our industry the best word of advertising is word of mouth even though my daughter will say it's social media but that's another story alto together um but the whole concept is very simple there's nobody that's going to be
allowed to come in from outside you have to be a registered guest to be on property you have to be a registered guest to use the the the pool facilities or the exercise room or or the again we'll we'll be serving breakfast we'll
be serving dinner um lunch is not included because we want we know people are going to be at the beach or they're going to be wandering around town we want them to make use of all the other amenities the city of Kate May has to offer so we're encouraging them to go offsite to to wander around the town and
to spend money um and again that's part of the overall experience we we are offering something that nobody as a guest you don't have to worry about anything you just have to worry about having a good time we're going to have offer a clean comfortable stay the the
facilities are magnificent the interior design will be fantastic the beds will be top-notch the amenities as as in the soap and the shampoos and whatnot will be topnotch this is going to be uh uh a
as close to a luxury experience as you can get we're It will not be five diamond in that we're not going to have uh valley shoe service that they drop off at the door we're not going to offer 247 room service i mean there are certain limitations that we'll have
because this is a seasonal property and we know that we have a certain amount of time to maximize the profitability of the revenue of the hotel and again I've been in seasonal properties my entire life um we know how to maximize but we
also know how to make sure the guest is having a great time so they want to come back so that they go back home and tell their friends about it and it I know that one of the the concerns was number of employees and I I can list the number
of employees we have on the busiest day i mean it starts with the front desk clerk four in housekeeping you know three in the front of the restaurant three in the back of the restaurant mike yep i'm I'm going to say slow down on this one only because I think this is this is kind of very important information i get a little excited the number of employees we're going to have
i don't I'm sorry i I'm not disputing that you're going to need 19 people i would say that it seems a little light from running an operation of that size and if I need 19 I guarantee I'm only going to have 17 show up so here here's more my concern what is your marketing
analysis that suggests an all-inclusive resort in um in Cape May is going to be successful what is your price point you know this town is known for its restaurants that you know to be able to say you're offering all-inclusive and they're going to pay for breakfast and
dinner they're not leaving to eat and accommodations at any of the other restaurants in town i you know most people come here and want to go out they list they immediately call i'm I have you know some inkling of hospitality business you know the first thing they
call about is what are the restaurants that are open do I get reservations where do I get them from will look for you for recommendations etc so I'm just curious you talked about Block Island you're on an island you're in a remote island there's not a lot of offerings
for other amenities there i can see that with an all-inclusive works there i've been to many all-inclusives in my life um it just doesn't resonate to me so I'm wondering what your marketing analysis is that just suggests and and here's the reason I'm going in
this direction is because if you're not successful what are you going to do with a 162 seat restaurant okay okay i mean that's fair all right but I I will I will also say that that we will offer the ability to
eat off site will offer a credit if they don't want to have their dinner or they don't want to have their breakfast we will give them a credit so that they do have the ability to go offsite but but we we want them to again we want them to enjoy it's a it's it's a cruise line
type of feel where where you're but on a cruise ship you have nowhere else to go to get a meal you understand that's not that well that's actually that's true and it's not true because if you go on a lot of these cruise ships now they offer and and and better dining options
where you can pay more to sit in the top house restaurant whatnot um but there will will be the ability that if they say listen I only want to have breakfast every day we can factor that into the meal count and and offer the credit that
way now it would be more advantageous for them to want to do that because when we know how many people we're serving I know exactly how much food to buy i have no waste so I'm a lot more efficient that way and Mike I think one of the other ideas that was floated around and
I I don't know correct me if I'm wrong was the idea of separate kind of packages in terms of if people would prefer to eat offsite they could pay a lower rate in terms of because they're not actually you know it kind of varies based on the the what the the guest wants is that correct there will be
options but the options will be priced to try to push them to do as much on property as possible because you know it's a Disney concept they don't want you leaving the their port without with any money left in your pocket because of
not necessarily what you're doing on day one it's what you're doing on year three when that model is not successful in this market that's the reason I'm asking yeah because I'm not looking just to approve this application or not approve it based on what you're doing the day you open this is this is a long term for
from my perspective so you say you're only going to need x amount of parking day one but if your model needs to change because that's the only way you have an ROI which we all know that in hotels it's food and alcohol is what
drives the bottom line uh the guest rooms okay I make to a certain extent but yeah anyway and make a much larger percentage of profit on the guest rooms just just very quickly though I think there was a question there and I just want to No the question is I I I don't know that you can answer it we'll get to
this the parking and the conditions of the parking for the facility that you're going to open my questions are just around the feasibility of that in the long term and maybe that's not appropriate for this board but if I'm looking at this I want to ensure that would I approve or dis if I approve this
that's the conditions in which this this operates that's indefinitely i I thought I understood that so if I can perhaps provide some comfort okay so I think what you're kind of saying is listen let's assume for the sake of argument now I'm not necessarily conceding this point but let's hypothetically this
model for whatever reason is not as successful in Kate May because like you said all-inclusive versus people going out and experiencing Kate May which is the draw largely if the model is unsuccessful and you switch for some
reason the variances are being granted based on the conditions that the hotel amenities are limited to guests and if you need to change that for whatever reason how am I to know what's to stop you from using the parking and opening it to the public and things like that one thing I can
confidently say and I and I'm I'm sure Mr king will will will um agree with me here and if not of course you know he can correct me Rich and I've been a board attorney myself so I understand how this this portion of it works what is agreed to tonight if if if the board
decides to approve this whatever conditions are agreed to tonight are conditions that will bind the property and run with the land to the extent that the model has to change at some point in the future for whatever reason and that in any way affects the approval here
tonight meaning we want to open something to the public we cannot do so legally without coming back before this board in any fashion that's why you have a resolution that's why you agree to certain conditions so any change to that
degree would inevitably and without question involve a reappearance before this board asking for an amended site plan or a new site plan however it's categorized so we would not be able to make a change of that magnitude without coming back before the sport i I agree
with that but there's a harder question and I'm curious about your view of this i'm hoping Miss Hendricks can hear me at home i got yelled at um the um if we're going to set this condition right that it's going to be an all-inclusive that it's only for hotel
guests and has this gigantic bar and restaurant that is very nice and luxurious but suppose we set a condition that the board doesn't think you can meet like suppose someone wanted to open up a place down here to to an arcade but in order for that to function they had
to be closed June July and August and we say "Yeah you can build an arcade but you have to be closed June July and August." And and we think that that is not going to work and the applicant says "Well yeah we want to build an arcade but we'll agree that it'll be closed June July and August." And the board
thinks "Well that's that condition is going to make this project fail and now we're going to have a hotel that we allowed to be built that can't function." Is it a legitimate consideration for the board if if our member thinks this isn't going to work like
we're going to build this hotel and then in a year or two years or three years it's not going to function and now we're going to be in the very difficult spot of either having a what's beautiful now but will be an isore after three unmaintained summers and winters uh that
can't operate and now we're in our position where we have to let it be open to the public because it turns out that's the only business model that'll work so if you know does a board have to allow you to have a condition that it thinks will cause the project to fail i'm not saying they think that but I I'm
curious about what you think of that legally because that's what I think our members I think that's what's on a couple of their minds what would the condition be that you can that you're building a giant a beautiful hotel with a beautiful
restaurant for 162 seats that's going to be all-incclusive in a I mean and this isn't my I'm not making I don't make policy judgments and I'm not I think what she's saying though is in a in a town known for its restaurants is if that concept seems to
be not something they have confidence in do they have to allow you to put that as condition in order get the parking variance like can they say well yeah we understand you're willing to do that but we don't think that'll work and now we're we have a big hotel is and I'm not
trying to put words in your mouth I'm genuinely asking is the proposal that we don't limit it to hotels I'm making no proposals I'm asking you I'm asking you I'm just asking your position on what appears to be our board members concern that if they don't think that the
concept will work do they have to give you variance based on that concept that's what you're asking us for and I I I am not saying they can or they can't i'm asking you to because if that happens I don't want to be talking about this for the first time in the Superior Court if that's if you think that's an
improper consideration I kind of want to hear that conversation i no I would I would I would certainly I think it's always dangerous and legally questionable at best to um impose a condition or deny an application based on hypothetical the
hypothetical being here that an all-inclusive resort style hotel simply won't work in Kate May which is something that they're doing on the opposite hypothetical that a that a all-inclusive will work i mean there are two hypotheticals we're not What are you saying on the opposite hypothetical
things you know you there we're all working on hypotheticals your hypothetical is that it will work because we don't have another example of it in town and maybe our well maybe maybe that's the question and Mike if you can maybe we can talk about or perhaps provide the board with some
comfort that this will work will this work can I explain what's happening in our industry there you go there has been more and more all-inclusive resort type properties going up around the world uh Hyatt now
has a division of all just all-inclusive resorts uh Marriott does Hilton does i mean it's you I mean it used to be that the Poconos's back in the day with the champagne uh hot tubs that that was
there how that worked um the the hot tub started leaking but um it's our industry is evolving a lot of it has to do with the aging of the population and there are more and more elderly people that have money they're traveling they're
looking for a higherend experience uh they don't necessarily want to get on a plane and fly somewhere they don't necessarily want to get a on a ship either but they're looking for that experience they they want the ability to to if they just want to stay in the room
and just walk across the street to the to the beach and that's it that's what they're looking for and it's the experience so what we're selling is an experience that that is becoming more and more prevalent within the industry
and Mike correct me if I'm wrong is the in doing the in Kate May is are they following this model as as exists today they're not okay okay let me ask a question it's not hypothetical and it's actually the numbers that you've provided to
us explain to me why you've got uh 56 rooms which would probably generate between 110 and 120 people guest wise and you have a restaurant that holds 162
people i believe you got the pool area and the bar area so they're two separate a bar area that holds 67 people um u isn't that isn't that too much amenity if you're only going to serve
Well you have a bar area i mean there's people are are don't want to sit in the bar area for breakfast so if they all come down for if they all come down for breakfast you're you have 40 empty seats you're never going to fill
the bar area has a number of seats in the restaurant you have 162 restaurant seats and you have I'll give you 120 people and they're all your rooms are filled you have 120 people in there 152 you're never going to fill 40 seats in
your restaurant there's 142 seats in the restaurant not I think it's 142 your sheets says 162 okay well there's 20 Can you come up or your document says total restaurant dining seating 162 and
then you have 56 okay so 20 20 were in a private room well it doesn't m Yeah i'm sorry it doesn't matter where they are yeah obviously special occasions people may want to have a I get it and then
they get in and the 12 people will go into the private room that's 12 empty seats in a restaurant so I mean it's not you get what my my point is you you've invited 120 people to stay at your place and you set up a restaurant for 162 people well I don't know that it's 120
people if you're talking about 53 sleeping rooms well I'm assuming there's two people in each bedroom it could be could be two to four i would probably guess four people in one bedroom it depends upon it depends two beds you have a family two kids two We can we can go back and forth about how many people
are sleeping in what beds no but but I think because you brought I don't want necessarily go down that road but when you mention because you're It's not that kind of a resort just I The reason I brought it up was because
[Laughter] you get my point yeah yeah the the only reason I brought that up was because and and and one thing I'm glad always glad to do is provide a good laugh you can always walk away from that but with your concept was premised upon 120 people i I was simply saying that I don't that's
it's a rough estimate and Yeah that's what I said it was that's what I said fair enough okay well I'm trying to look at the numbers you gave us and I'm saying that there's going to be like 120 people coming into your place you won't let anybody come from the outside which
I assume means that if some of your guests invite their parents over for dinner they can't come in because they No they can't they can't use the property if they're not guests what's that they can't use the property or the amenities if they're not guests so they can't be invited by no company for dinner so that doesn't explain then why
we have 40 seats per I mean again this is not legal argument but I think the number I think there should be the same number of tables as rooms because in my experience at hotels every room uses up a table so if there's two people in a room they're going to sit at a four table seat and there's going to be two
people at it you generally don't gather at the table so I mean I don't know why the restaurant has to be crowded but I'm just giving you the concept that I think most of the time it's a table a room whether there's two people in the room or four I don't know that is Mike is that true typically not on cruise ship
because they they they ask you to sit with people you never heard of uh and and some people now if you've had enough drinks before some people on cruises don't like that but you're absolutely correct i'm in trouble on We're not trying to force people to sit
with other people that they don't know if that's true I'm in trouble you won't you won't have that problem because you have way too many seats for the number of guests you're going to have could I can I go back to the hypothetical sure sure yeah sure the hypothetical is that this is successful and and I hope that it would be of certainly but as a
planning board I asked the question is that what the city wants do we want and hotels that see this success to say you know we could build more rooms and not have the parking for it if we become an
all-inclusive mhm and this town is built on mom and pop small businesses that have restaurants and bicycle rental places and um museums and theaters don't we want those folks to get out and
use those amenities and and businesses that that exist in town the breakfast and the I mean I just to me it's like a whole different thought for the town and I'm not sure it's such a good one for for the Kate May plan there but I could also argue I could also argue the other
way that it's a choice that people want they want maybe they somebody wants that place down here i'm just saying I think you set a precedent that if one hotel does this do we now allow other hotels to do the same well if if I may answer
that and Rich this might be getting into legal aspects that the board is either permitted or not permitted to consider this would be the type of hypothetical that I think is a bit beyond the purview of the board because the question in your ordinance in terms of the permissibility of what we're proposing
is hotel It doesn't limit the type of hotel it doesn't limit in terms of can it be all-inclusive does it have to be open to the public does it not and I I can promise you based on the previous applications my my client is very aware that having this open to the public
would bring its own problems in terms of parking and public push back it did certainly did in 2021 so this is a a bit of a a response to the city of Cape May as a way to say "Okay we heard you so here's what we're proposing instead something that doesn't exhibit the same
concerns that you had with the 2021 application which proposed that these entities be open to the public in order to draw in exactly what you're describing the the fact that my client's proposed business model may or may not work which is
something that I don't think anybody but the person standing to my sitting to my left Mr marshall is is able to weigh on is a basis by which to deny an application it's a hotel it's a permitted use if the the business decides to use an all-inclusive model
that because they are the private property owner that would be I would say their prerogative to do so except that you've made the argument that this is the reason why we should be approving this application you've driven that point from the beginning of this presentation it supports it supports the variance it supports your variance
because you're saying that you're not going to need parking for the public you also just said that it may not be just two people to a room so if it's not two people to a room and it's four people are they bringing another car because now all of a sudden we have four people in a room and how many cars are they
going to be bringing pardon two little kids no you're presuming it's two little kids it could be two adult children and just for the sake of the record that was the applicant's representative Manny Demuta said two kids as opposed to two okay all I'm saying is we're working on the
premise that it is one car per room now you've just introduced the fact that some of these bedrooms can accommodate up to four individuals what the ages are are you restricting them that it's only two adults and two children no okay so you could have two young adults sharing
a room with their parents that in my opinion doesn't discount the the You still have Don't You're not limiting the cars are you you're making the argument that it's one car one car per room so somebody shows up with a car you're going to tell them to go find their
parking on their own this this this question this is it no I'm not saying we can't go down this road i just think this is our traffic view that we do we have an ordinance our ordinance says and Craig will correct me if I'm wrong that it's done by the number of bedrooms and
it's one per bedroom that may be am I wrong about that the parking generation for the number of rooms is based on the number of sleeping rooms okay one per sleeping room so that's a decision that the town has made whether we think that's a good one or a bad
one that's not for us to overrule today okay our ordinance requires one parking space for one bedroom and we can't just hold an applicant and say "Well we we don't think that's a good a good plan we think there should be two parking spaces for a bedroom because
bedrooms may have a big bed or a cot and there may be three." So today's not the day to overrule that so I just want to So that's not a useful conversation okay okay i I didn't get the impression that that was was being argued
i if we look at the parking count the number of hotel rooms is 56 and they have 19 employees and and this m Mr shropshshire I think leaned on into this as part of his justification they have 65 single spaces with up to 79
double stacked valley spaces that accommodates that the issue is the 240 seat restaurant and bar seats that really don't that are accessory and that they're they're they're arguing and trying to justify the variant parking
variance because the parking variance is really encompassing those 240 seats so that is what the board I think feels uncomfortable with making sure that this business model works making sure that this is not going to revert back to an
open to the public which would create a nightmare parking scenario in that neighborhood so it is very important that all these layers of things sit well with the board so that they can justify granting the parking variant with with that i agree i was directing my
conversation to the discussion about how many cars are people going to bring to a single bedroom and I'm saying that that is something that our ordinance has decided for us so that's not something we debate today if there's one bedroom it's one parking space if we do something different than that we will
have a problem in the superior court the ordinance says that now the other things you've said a totally legitimate consideration i just didn't want to get in a discussion about how many cars are likely to drive to a single bedroom because we've already decided that if I can quickly respond can I expand on
Craig's point before you go sure um the the plans you've given us here with respect to the public areas the restaurant the bar the up the the pool they're they haven't changed since
the last set of plans they are the same size they're the same maximum capacities they're they're the same space but now you're telling us that it's only going to be used for the people who are booked into the rooms
that space was designed for an open bar for an open restaurant my my point is you've got too much amenity space for the limited number of people who are going to be in your building now Moren's point
is I think if I am I listening is does this set up a runway for some sort of transition later on if and when a business model that this is based on happens to not go over well that's that's the one thing I kind of wanted to respond to and I'm glad I think you
summed it up nice and I think you've said the same thing that's what I tried to convey before is that that can't legally happen without us appearing before this board again we can't say "Hey this business model isn't working we're going to make a quick transition and try and get the public more
involved." That simply cannot legally happen without coming back before this board so any attempt to do that would require an application before the board which you could then weigh and then potentially and likely deny if that were and if I could just chime in on that and
and I can respect that but then you're coming back to the board and I think this is what we're trying to say is then you're going to come back to the board you're going to make that argument and now we have a vacant building and we're all sitting around looking at each other
going what an eyesore and and that's where we're trying to get to and you haven't answered the question well that's the that's the question that I think Mike will have to answer is I mean one thing we can't with with
100% guarantee of course that this will work i don't think anybody on the planet can say 100% certainty there's no way this can fail things you know things happen and this whole concept is premised on the idea that this business model fails i can assure you my client wouldn't be moving forward with this business model if they didn't think it
would work but Mike if you can maybe just try and hone in on that on that point in your experience in managing hotels your experience working hotels the things you've encompassed your knowledge of Kate May and running the in at Kate May why do you think that this specific model will be successful here
in addition to the testimony you've already provided with the evolution of the hotel business yeah I I mean it all comes back to that it is the evolution of the hotel business where people are looking for a different type of experience especially after the pandemic where people are looking for a real
guest experience they're they're not just looking to go to one place or another they're looking for options um you've got a lot of major cities within driving distance the population as you know within driving
distance of this of Cape May is tremendous and those people are looking for different things to do and this is an option that gives them a certain peace of mind uh that that they're going to get what they pay for i I would also
point out that we will be charging some very hefty rates for this which will compared to what the jetty is paying right now in in tax revenue is uh in occupancy tax and whatnot it's going to be a tremendous uh addition to the
citizers um so the the the traveling public has been evolving and this is the next level that they're going to they're looking for the next level experience
if I can just follow up and expand a little further but what we're at least from my perspective is back all the way to the beginning of the conversation we we have two hypotheticals that were sitting here that were weighing
so I I need to hear a little bit more on how is that going to work in that section of the city based off of your experience in other towns running all-inclusive resorts the the all-inclusive resorts
historically have been found in in your sandals your Caribbean uh island experiences Mexico the the concept is moving into the continental United States it's it like again I said
back in the 60s 50s and 60s you had it in the Poconos it's ran its course the traveling public is evolving in this country where they're looking for different
experiences can you point to a town like Kate May where that business model is currently being applied i cannot but I I can certainly find it well and in fact on that quick note can I think I think
this is a good time for a break if I can have just 10 minutes with my client briefly everybody we'll take a 10-minute break thank you appreciate it they have more They have another They have one more witness they have to put on the variance
testimony from Mr schaefer can I leave i had enough can I leave all right everybody we're going to uh try and get started there was a question that whether they could move that easel over to the left
well we might we might not have to because what my what the applicant is going to propose I think is something that hopefully the board will be open to uh because you know I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't listen to what the board was saying hear some of the public commotion behind me agreeing with what the board is saying in terms of their
concerns so what we're proposing is this the client uh my the applicant is willing to go back a little bit to the drawing board with respect to one thing not the whole thing we're not going to redesign the whole concept nothing like that what we're essentially going to take a look at because if I'm reading
correctly one of the big concerns of this board is the size and the number of seats in the amenity spaces and how that might transition in the future in addition to the business model which again our position is technically the business model is not a board a consideration for the board but the size
of the amenity spaces we heard you loud and clear so we'd like to go back to the drawing board a bit as to that see if it's possible to shrink the amenity spaces to a certain degree without sacrificing of course our business model and the likely success of this and we
would like the board to adjourn this either to the um excuse me the May or June meeting to give us an opportunity to do that can I comment on that uh I want the Rich to comment first okay my policy that I stick to on requests for adjournments is
that it is um a vote by the board um particularly when we have 100 people in the audience um you know they're prepared to go tonight and we're prepared to hear it so generally I mean you've made your pitch for that and that's fine now i'm not speaking against it uh I generally let the board vote
um if there's an attorney or someone who I mean I I don't want a board to make a decision without hearing from I Mr are are you representing a series of objectors or something representing eight different objectives as is Mr murphy well I don't need to hear from Mr murphy
on this topic but if you wanted to say something on this I'm going to give you the opportunity but do you Yeah if you have a brief you need a mic can you borrow one of those that mic please yeah no I I got one here we got a few i think we're good uh while he's prepping can I
just ask one question Rich sure um that's what one of the things I was going to say let's hear from some other folks but the other thing too is this request to adjourn to come up with a better plan for the public space
in which case we haven't even talked about the parking space yet and so and I have questions about the parking spaces now if we don't get a chance to flesh that out at a meeting and come back in May we'll have to flesh that out then
that may be another set of problems separate and apart from this public spaces all I mean in terms of the parking if the board votes to adjurnn then we'll have a uh if anybody has something they feel strongly about and they want the applicant to consider during the adjournment we'll give you an
opportunity to say that on the record okay but in terms of the spaces the only thing that would necessarily happen if we decrease the size of the amenities is amenities is it would decrease the number of parking spaces that are required how would that happen because parking spaces are based on No the parking
spaces based on rooms but technically the 135 is the variance from which we need we don't need a variance if it's just calculated based on rooms but we need a variance related to the inclusion of the amenities the number of seats in the restaurant you also needed a variance for the stacked parking and yes
as well no I'm not I'm not arguing that that's what Mr crowley is referencing yes yes no of course and we'll have to of course address that as as we move forward with our application but what we're trying to do is be considerate of the board's comments of their concerns and potentially go back to the drawing
board and say "Okay we heard you the amenities are a little too big for you guys we're going to decrease their size decrease their the number of seats that they have." and see if that assuages the board's concerns to some degree or another i'd rather I'd rather if you're asking me I'd rather hear what the
public has to say and then hear what the board has to say with the other remaining issues we haven't discussed yet and then go back and work out a plan that's that's acceptable i don't know that no the p and rich you can correct me for Mr crowley expressed his opinion
and he has one vote when we vote to adjurnn and that's fine and he can vote okay right i mean and so I'm just saying like I'm not going to undo everything let's It's not undoing everything it's it's for addressing a particular concern of the board i'm trying to help you here
okay fair enough fair enough rich is the proper terminology adjourn or table it uh I consider them the same thing but I guess what would you recommend uh I'll let council pick but I think I usually say adjourn you know it's adjourn is I mean I consider them synonymous as well
so I the word the terminology is irrelevant to me we're good go ahead i'll wait you're good now so that I think simply I mean there's a number of people in this room that traveled long distances uh there's also a number of people in this room that paid professionals to be here tonight and
essentially what we're doing is paying for the fact that they weren't prepared to present this application adequately tonight i this application go dates back to 2010 when things first started here the public opposition to the proposed amenity space and to this proposed
development hasn't changed this applicant knew that there'd be opposition to this coming in yet they chose to proceed tonight anyway based on that i think given that the fact that we're here and ready to present an opposition an adjournment request is just too too out of the question at this
point they're too far along in my opinion can I quickly respond to two comments based on that just because I think some of them need to be addressed from a legal perspective i would disagree with the assertion that the applicant was unprepared to propose what we're proposing what we're simply hearing from
the board is what we're proposing makes the board uncomfortable so we know to move forward is to present a certain level of risk and I understand that some of the members of the public objected to this or were going we knew that people were going to object to this we know
that without any degree of doubt 100% certain that no matter what we propose here beyond the existing motel is going to met with be met with some push back from the public what we're trying to do is take the boards the public's concerns
into account and amend accordingly and the resistance to that I think is almost to to to force the okay we've proposed something we've received what the board is saying we're looking to make a quick change to address that and the fact that people have traveled to come here my
client has traveled to come here i've traveled to come here we've paid professionals as well that's simply the cost of doing business in a land use context that's what this technically involves um we welcome the public's comment we would certainly love their feedback um I don't think it's appropriate to do until we've rested and
and proposed all our witnesses but what we're telling you here tonight is you're it seems like we're being presented with the option of continue with a plan that the board already appears uncomfortable with or try and address the board's concerns and then be penalized for that
as well and I'm not necessarily saying that's that's just kind of the the catch22 my client seems to find itself in so once again I would say what we're trying to do is not delay this we're not trying to waste anybody's time we're not trying to weigh the public or the objector's time or their money we're
trying to address the board's concerns with the application as proposed and make a change based on those can I just interject for one moment page seven you received Mr hurles's planning board application and it mentions page seven
uh second paragraph down it says the applicant should be prepared to discuss this issue with the board and verify the restriction can be enforced and there is adequate off- streetet parking available on street parking in this neighborhood and has been observed he's included all of the questions with regard to the
amenities the accessory amenities in this property and said come prepared to discuss it and we have come prepared well now you're asking for us to postpone or adjurnn it based on the fact you want to go back and recalibrate your design so I'm we're trying to address
the board has made it clear they're concerned about the size so we're saying Mr chairman Mr mr chairman we we took we took a 10-minute break at the CL at the uh applicants request we've been talking about this for the next 10 minutes uh I
think let's let's should we have a vote and just say if we're going to continue this or not the only thing this is obviously discretion use a microphone mr i do have a few of my clients that would like to say something that have traveled all the
way down here to say something it's obviously in your discretion as to whether you hear them but they do want to be heard well we we haven't opened to the public yet so there there's a request for an adjournment here's what I'm going to say about the adjournment in this instance and and it you don't have to listen to me i get I get paid for advice people don't take all the
time happens all the time me too you know this is a big project okay it is zoned for a hotel there's supposed to be a hotel on this property that's what your master plan says okay so a hotel that doesn't use
public parking is the best option the neighborhood could ever have okay that's that's the the home run for a a a zoned a property zoned as a hotel that is not going to use any parking in the public is a home run for the town and for the
neighborhood that's that's a fact okay now I I think it would be appropriate to give it as much thought and careful analysis as you can and if you're going to reject it to reject it having given it the best chance it can get now or if you're going to accept it accept the
best version of it at that you can and it's an inconvenience to have to do this another night and we've I sat on this board we've refused to in fact it was this applicant and we refused an adjournment and the court upheld that decision so it's not that we can't do it
okay so you have the power to do it it's in your discretion but on a project this important that has the potential to be a good version of a hotel that can be there i think it's appropriate to get all the information and it may be that
nothing changes and maybe they are unable to persuade you but to to to make them go forward now when they're saying that they may be able to make it better well then you know that's that's something you should consider okay if you don't do it it's within your
discretion to do that okay recognize the inconvenience to the crowd but you know what we probably weren't going to finish tonight anyway all right you're all got to be here another time anyway so why not be here with a plan that they're comfortable they've given you their best shot now I admit this applicant has had
while I've been here six or seven chances at their best shot and sometimes before that okay but this all-inclusive thing is a new concept it's new to everybody so if it takes two meetings to really flesh it out and either accept it or reject it then maybe that's what you
got to do but you vote your conscience it's within your discretion to do it but I just want you to think about all those things as you vote so I'd ask someone to make a motion and either we're going to press forward because we're going to be done in an hour and 15 minutes anyway so press forward or we're not going to be
done like you said but we're going to be covered we're going to be Yeah coming here another night in an hour and 15 minutes anyway one plan or another i have a a question for you if this structure did not have a restaurant or actually for you Craig I guess if it didn't have a
restaurant there wouldn't be any variances needed would there so they could just go ahead and do the hotel same size same look same parking it would be close but they they wouldn't require any variance because it stacking
oh even even without a restaurant the same room count the same number of employees no it would be a different number we wouldn't have a nested number of employees we'd have to figure that out that's But theoretically theoretically it would be a byite
project so so which is they wouldn't need and then if that was approved they would have the total number of basis requirement okay just just curious now it's it's up you know Mr chair there's also the concern that the
applicant may not have heard all of the concerns so that they they may not make amendments to their plan to address the the board's concerns so you know I I don't know exactly how to repair that my my thinking was if you agree to adjourn it was to have a conversation about
things that you'd like them to consider during the um interim but I I don't know how else to fix that or we could just spend the last next hour and 15 minutes you know we can spend some time listening to the public's concerns or whatever you you're the chairman so I'm giving you Yeah but
how can we I I He's He's going to object to that yeah I would I mean again it's the board's prerogative i certainly can't stop them but I would object to opening it to the public until of course we arrested our case and chief and and Mr chairman in all due respect to that then we're not hearing all of the concerns we're we're hearing what the
board's concerns are we will have we will hear their concerns once they redo this the public has every right after he represents whatever they're going to do then the public can obviously and and and if I can provide the board with some degree of comfort as that I think the
concern being but but one of your reasons for the adjournment was because of those concerns so well the board's the the concerns expressed well you mentioned the Well because I I'm I can hear that i understand that but I'm just saying you you you made that a a a
condition of wanting the journal concerns so I think it's fair for them to for for some reason no one ever thinks of this but there's a reason that the attorneys have to put their name and address in the notice uh anyone is free to contact the applicant at any time
when an application is pending to express their concerns and things that worry them in fact attorneys want them to do that so they can deal with it ahead of time so everyone here has the notice that was published i am sure the address and phone number and maybe even the email address of Highland Levin I
think that's your phone right it's my last I'll even spell it c H A C I S at highland.com my number is 8563552992 and you're free to you're free to express your concerns and things you want to see in the plan at any time before and after this meeting but just
to very quickly I I can let the board kind of know if this doesn't work i think the applicant is probably it this is probably the the last attempt that the applicant can make in its own mind to to change this to to assuage some of
the board's concerns if we can shrink it great we'll propose it and that will be the proposal if we can't we'll be coming back discussing the same proposal you have before you here tonight so I don't think there's going to be a concern of the public making additional comments at public comment and me coming up and saying "Oh I want to make more changes."
At that point we'll simply be addressing the public's comment in connection with our professionals as is the normal course for any application mr king how did the public's comments become public to us i mean because they're going to be there's going to be another meeting and they're going to be able to say whatever they want we're going to have the public
is free to contact this gentleman sure and then they're going to then restate the same thing at the next meeting if we in a perfect world the way the system is designed to work is that you the applicant publishes their notice and then people who have concerns about the application are supposed to contact them
ahead of the meeting and try to address those concerns and that actually happens a lot you just don't hear about it because they address the concerns so the neighbor calls and says "I see you're putting on an addition can you move it back two feet?" and they say "Okay we move back two feet." So that happens uh so that's not uncommon and things that
they fix the public may not have to talk about it's been fixed or if they don't fix it they come up and they say "We asked them to fix this and they didn't do it and we don't like it." And then they do that at the next meeting and just to piggyback off of that I would welcome that if if we can address the p a particular member of the public's
concerns we will do so if we can't we'll say so and then they can certainly come here and say "Hey I asked them to do this they said no." that will be their prerogative to do so um so and then in this particular case they won't have just have 10 days from when they got the notice they'll have at least a month so
the the time to do that will have increase now again I can't promise that we'll address every concern of every member of the public um but it's certainly something we're willing to consider i'm just trying to be respectful this evening and sitting here um you've had your time to be able to
voice you know your position on it so I'm just trying to make sure that there's an equal voice for the individuals sitting here and those that are being represented so that's my reason it's one thing to communicate with you but there's something else very powerful about a public statement understood
Rich there's nothing stop if we'd adjourn there's nothing stopping these people from addressing it right now with him right uh no i mean it's a it's up to him free world rich Rich Rich could I push can I say something yeah because I I
mean they're not done yet so we can't open the public comment till they're done that's not fair no we we've agreed to that we can't yeah so if we'd adjourn they have their opportunity to speak to them right now and give them their concerns and I think he's saying that they have the
opportunity to speak to the applicant you'll hang around for a little bit talk to everyone's talk to you right i I'll hang around i don't know if it'll be until but you know I'm having I don't know I mean with and and if I could just jump in on that too we do have city
staff I'm looking at Karen who we need to be respectful of people's time on that as well that is how we proceed that's just one thing I'll say though just I'm happy to stick around and chat without question we want the public's comments i can tell them now I I can't
agree to anything tonight i just want to make that clear i can't say agreed agreed agreed and then we'll make those changes i'm happy to talk about concerns i'm happy to bounce them off my client and if to the one to the extent that there are ones that we can agree to we will certainly do so but I I just don't
want anybody thinking that they're going to talk with me and then have a surefired bonafide promise that yes we'll make that change i just I don't want to put anybody under any delusions about what they're going to get in speaking to me tonight i just Let's Let's be fair if we don't agree to a journey fair enough then then then it's
then it's a mid point yeah okay okay and and we haven't heard all the testimony yet either have we no you're not deciding the application you're deciding adjourn or not adjurnn so someone make a motion to adjurnn and then someone second it and then vote i'll make a motion to adjurnn i'll second yes means
you adjourn no means they continue karen can you roll call please we have a motion by Mr krippen seconded by Deputy Mayor McDade mr gorgon yes mayor Mollik no deputy Mayor McDade no
mr crowley no mr lenholm yes mr riggs no mr producus no mr krippen yes mr jones yes uh I think that's 54 no so continue your presentation
absolutely okay so Mike the uh the question that's on everybody's mind is how do we know that this business model is going to work and then the second question is how are we going to enforce the restriction that the hotel amenities
be limited strictly to the hotel guests those are kind of the two bugaboos that we're dealing with tonight all right so if you look at the way the hotel sells to groups and it could be bird watchers it could be anything i mean a lot of
groups come into a hotel and they want breakfast a box lunch they want dinner they want alcohol coupons in order for you for them to stay at your hotel so if you look at at just the industry as a
whole we already do this it's just not all at once so by taking this concept into a singular facility we we're just looking at expanding on it but we're looking at expanding on it to individuals not only just groups we're
still going to sell to groups and we're still going to get that the people that want to do that every hotel every full service hotel in Cape May is selling to groups right now so and they're selling to those different it could be a bicycle club it could be there's so many
different it could be a wedding there's so many different things uh different types of of groups that will do that and we do include that that's part of the package that we sell so this is not a new concept the difference is it's all
in one place and that everybody is being asked to participate in that concept however we're saying you don't have we're giving them options you don't want to have dinner tonight then we'll give you credit for that you don't want to have breakfast today we'll give you credit for that you can still go out and
and and enjoy whatever you want to enjoy but it's not it's nothing new i mean there's so many and I'm sure you look at motor coach groups i mean everything every every one of their meals is covered so it's this is nothing new um
why we think this this will work here is because it is a unique destination there are a lot of people that maybe don't know about Kate May you know maybe we're going to open the eyes to a new set of guests and these are
going to be guests that are that are going to be paying very well to stay in this facility and we're looking at taking a really not a very nice hotel right now and making it something beautiful we're looking at at taking a a a hotel that
probably should have been torn down 20 years ago and making it something that the city can be proud of that's that can go on the postcards that can go up on on these on these billboards over here so that's the cell is something unique to
this community and looking at a customer base that may not normally think to stay here but we're giving them something new to think about a new option i'm sorry what was the second question well adding to that first one
and we'll get to the second question do you have any concerns with respect to using this business model in Kate May in terms based on your experience your longtime working in and operating and running hotels do you have any concern that this business model will be unsuccessful here i do not i I really
think that this is and and again maybe we go after more groups maybe maybe we don't go after more individuals i mean there are ways to pivot and move we're going to have a beautiful facility we're going to have top-notch food and beverage options for people to enjoy
again word of mouth will carry this to the next level i have a question about the food and beverage offerings you have that's a key pivot to the success of your model having a range of food and beverages mhm and almost half of the
public space on the first floor is dedicated to a bar lounge and I don't know what a guest library is but it's right next to the bar so I assume it's a lounge of some sort um and and yet there's no liquor license available are you going to have a liquor
license to be able to operate this and if not if one's not available how much of your plan gets sabotaged in the process i I don't do adult liquor licenses the the intention is to have a liquor license obviously if it doesn't
have a if there's no option available i I believe there's already one that we're we're investigating so uh but obviously our intention is to have a liquor license we're we're aware that you know that terms of the serving of alcoholic beverages is somewhat pivotal to the success of the hotel and if the board
again wants to make the acquisition of a liquor license as a condition of approval we would certainly agree to that because our business model depends on it so it wouldn't necessarily be a push for Have you guys decided on months of operation that was my next question i believe it's going to be all year round all year round
12 months 12 months yes my only concern is you know they say to follow the science you've heard that a lot and you're asking for us to be an experiment in this town you said you've managed or owned over 400 hotels that
you can't provide one example of a hotel that functions as this in your portfolio that that's that's my only comment you've never done this before if if I can address that again and and then this isn't intended to be adversarial
but one of the things that I want to implore the board to understand is the type of hotel is not necessarily the question the ordinance permits a hotel as Mr king said himself an a hotel that doesn't rely on public parking is almost
a slam dunk as it relates to the ordinance and that's what we're proposing here tonight so the simple I I I don't disagree with that but you're I do I just want to say and I'm not I I'm not offering an opinion on the vote of
the of the project but I I have to say that I do think it is a legitimate consideration when you're basing your request for a variance on a particular business concept to justify it there has to be sufficient evidence in the record for the board to conclude that that
concept is likely to succeed so that the variance can can have a duration uh proportionate to the investment of the hotel because if it doesn't work now we are in a very difficult spot we either have an eyesore or we have to let you have a public hotel which is not what
the board wants so I I am not saying that they they have to decide a certain way but I do think that it is a legitimate basis to deny the variance or grant the variance just as if they think this concept will work then that's a legitimate basis to grant the variance
if they don't think it will work then it's a legitimate basis to deny the variance so I do think you've put that issue in play by proposing it the way you proposed it and I am not taking a plan position on whether it works or not i've been to all inclusives and they were great so I I don't have any but the
the key aspect in No no no you made the argument at the beginning that the operational model was the justification for not needing public parking okay that was your premise when you sat down at the table so based on that is why we're
having this conversation so let's just agree that that was what your argument was the argument of your applicant so that you know we're not keep going around to in a circle on this that's what you guys have basically said to us the reason why your justification for
not needing 135 parking spaces is because you're this is your operational model and this is your operational marketing expert the but the the the purpose of the all-inclusive aspect and the most important aspect of that particular proposed model is the fact that the
amenities will be limited to hotel guests only that's the basis by which we're doing it that's the primary justification for the variances now again I'm not disagreeing with what you said our operational model serves as justification for the variance but the as aspect of it that the more particular
aspect of that is the fact that because the resort is all-inclusive the amenities will be limited to hotel guests which means we don't have to account for the public coming in the same way the 2021 application did in terms of the additional parking necessity so that was that if if that's
if that's clear I hope it is if it's not then okay and if that model if it should fail at some point your you had testified that you will come back to the board and ask for a site plan removal
well once our our official testimony is that we don't believe it will fail operating under the hypothetical that if it does fail nobody wants to get cancer i I'm not saying necessarily that we will come back with a separate proposal to open it to the public i'm not saying we'll come back with anything what I'm
saying is the model itself cannot change for whatever the reason that building you're going to come back with something so you're going to come back with something and you're going to go in front of the board and ask for what amounts to a self-inflicted hardship and the board's got a choice at that point
might be 10 different people they have a choice of of giving you that that waiver or not and at that point that's going to be a very tough call to make the
yeah another 10 minute so very quickly I think this might be so we're going to pivot a little bit i mentioned at the beginning of the meeting that a representative of the applicant Manny Demutus was here um Manny has heard some of these comments and is prepared to address them um he currently is the
operator and owner of the the Jetty Motel also obviously he's very familiar with the property so at this time I'd like to um Mike if you could just step down momentarily and have uh Manny come up and provide some comments manny you'll be you'll be sworn in that's perfectly fine it's just that um
a gentleman has to remain for any cross-examination by any They will all remain yep okay that's fine mr mus do you uh swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth beyond i do thanks sir i'm sorry to interrupt we had a request from
the public to move these um sure i'll please yeah you can go ahead Manny i'll move those right now yeah so you got full name the idea I think there's a lot get the full name i Emanuel C demuse thank you um yeah i think the there's I
think there's a bunch of u information that's get getting thrown around uh and it's getting thrown around in error and so I just would like to clear uh the record the rooms themselves the room revenue themselves carries the project okay the amenity the amenity space is an
amenity to the guests so it's it's it's the icing on the top it's not it's not critical to our operations um the question was raised do how do we do this uh currently here and the answer is yes we do it all the time okay okay i mean
how many how many hotels have you stayed in where uh breakfast was included well you think it was just free or do you think they added it to your to your room tab um you know the burning groups the you know the the burning groups we have
I think four or five this year and they're just one small segment where we feed them we put them to bed they use our meeting space for tutorials um it's an active weekend um for these folks and and we have many of them so I think one
of the thing the the the we're not trying to prelude as a person who's done a lot of community planning we're not trying to prelude people or isolate people from the rest of Kate May city but I've been doing this since I was 34 i've been this application has been
before this board since I was 34 years old i'm 55 okay let me say that again okay we've owned the Jetty since 2005 and um what we what we did was we
heard from the neighbors over the last 21 years that they didn't want an impact to their neighborhood that they didn't want you know what they wanted and what they didn't want i mean do I think it's a cry and shame that nobody sitting behind me is going to be able to come into the hotel unless they pay $800 a night yeah I do i think that's that's
awful but that's the ordinance that's the rules we're playing under and and we feel comfortable with that we've owned three hotels in Cape May my family's been in the hospitality business since 1969 i take all the risk the idea that it's going to be a failed a failed and
I'm laughing because I I I deal with a lot of failed projects and turn them around um the idea that it's going to be a failed project is is in my opinion uh doesn't take into account the experience and and and the and that that we that we have as a as a team um we're
trying to have the least amount of impact on the neighborhood creating a beautiful building the room revenue from this building will be four times what the existing room revenue is not that this is material to to the existing
jetty and we're able to provide each one of those guests an amenity that's exclusive they don't have to sit why is there more seats because there could they have we have the potential for up to 152 people to be on property at one
time okay now there's going to be seating plans and you know you're not everybody's going to eat you know I'm going to eat at 5:30 and you're going to eat at 7:30 and there's going to be vacant tables but they're not going to be used utilized for the public they're going to be utilized for the guests and the comfort of the guests
and everything we don't have enough chase lounges at the pool area to support the number of guests that could possibly be in on property at one time and to give and where this really gained roots was in was in the this concept
gained roots was was was hearing what the neighbors had said over the last 21 years and realizing that at the end of Kate May the first question that everybody asked is what's our census how many bodies do we have how many souls do we have on property because we can tell
within 10% what kind of food and beverage revenue we're going to have on any given day and so um it's a much simplistic it's a much simpler plan we know how the number of meals that we're It's a much more efficient operation system probably the most efficient in
the fact that you're not if you have 100 people on site you're not going to make 120 breakfasts our food waste goes to zero the amount of people that we have the amount of employees that we need to pull off that uh get dramatically decreased uh so I I just wanted to set
the record straight um you know we've been trying to get this exact same building uh approved by this board for 21 years and we've gone through every gyration of this and yeah I'd really like it to be open to the public but
that's not even a consideration today we we refuse okay we're not going to open it to the public it's a shame it breaks community continuity but the but the parking ordinances don't support it and this board consistently has not supported it so we found a way that we
can that we can uh get a return on investment as you said over a 21-year period and provide our guests with a first class exclusive experience so if you're if I'm paying $1,000 a night to stay at a View uh I don't want somebody
I don't want to sit I don't have to sit and wait for somebody at the bar now is 40 seats at the bar i heard that all night right 40 seats at the bar well you know what at 2 o'clock there may be and it's a rainy day you may have all 40 seats used okay at 9:00 in the morning probably not going to have anybody there
right so these various different spaces and amenity spaces that we have for the guests that are staying there okay are there for them they're there for them and we feel like we can create a fantastic guest experience um and is it
ever anything we ever thought it was going to be absolutely not but this is where we are today this is the plan that we have today it's a good plan i really believe that i believe that it's a good business model um I'm not as old as Mike Marshall but you know I think that he you know I
would I've been in this business for a really long time and I So I would want you to consider all these things like take it at take it at its reality is it going to Are we going to invest $25 million to construct a new hotel
um and have it be a rusting hulk i No it's I don't We don't We don't have one of them we don't have one of them in our portfolio um although we did buy the end so we we've been putting that we've been putting her back together every every
year slowly but surely so I mean that's what's going on here and um and I just wanted I I wanted to ass on one side say that this is going to be a failed business plan and then on the other side we're telling you that we need that we feel very comfortable with
the number of seats we have in the dining room but it's too many it's a contradictory statement so and since we're not service we're not serving the public we're not we're not serving the outside public we're only serving guests um I think
it's a fantastic new slash old uh model you know I was digging through the end the other day and you know what I found from 1905 i found it was an all-inclusive hotel okay
pudding was 10 cents and a ham and cheese sandwich for lunch was was 25 cents and chicken livers god forbid were like a$125 so people used to come here and camp out in their hotel and that's where they and that's what they did so
it this community has been on a day with this for the last 150 years mr mus when you were I mean as a business person I know you do your investigations uh the people who are investing $25 million did they do any analysis of other examples where this model was used
and succeeded and can you describe to the board some of those yeah sure i mean well I think you're talking about sponsor right so when you go to get funding for a construction project uh we're talking about a resort hotel with a limited schedule um and they're going to say "Okay who we So the numbers make
sense right the numbers physically make sense we know that we do 67% of our business May through September and that's enough to support the to support the building we also know that it's awful for our employees when we don't stay open 12 months a year i mean it
just disrupts their entire lives and so we've committed at the end to stay open even though some months have been painful to keep people working and keep people on property uh and that's a commitment that's a that's a commitment that we've made to our employees
um I'm sorry Rich what What did you You asked me a question and I'm pretty sure I talked right around it i I maybe maybe there isn't an answer i'm sorry but I I assume that the people who are considering funding this project said to you "Has this been done anywhere else and was it successful?" And I was wondering if you had any examples of
that you could share with the boards that was one of the questions that they asked yeah so there was Yeah so there's there's a bunch of especially in New England but there's a bunch of of u hotels boutique hotels especially um that that that provide this service um
you know we interviewed before we hired Mike uh and TPG you know we interviewed a bunch a group out of Nantucket um and we talked specifically about this model uh and they loved it i mean you love it for the for the labor efficiency you love it for the for the supply
efficiency but how we're going to fund this and how and how is this going to get funded it's going to get funded because a banker from Philadelphia is going to say is Manny have the physical capability to do pull off this project and does he have the experience and in my experience over the last over probably about a half a billion dollars
worth of deals that I've that answer's always been yes excuse me would the banker then ask you for a market research analysis we would give them I mean no we would give them a one-year a 10-year a one year or 5year proforma um you know when
we when when we bought the inn I mean the inn was operated you know in one way and we went to the we went to the lending institution said we're going to totally change what's going on we're going to raise rates by four times or five times we're going to raise the cost
of food totally changed that business oh by the way we're not going to close we're going to stay open um and we totally changed that business model it was never even a question i mean it just wasn't a question no but market research for this project there's tons we have we
we we I mean we know how many people Kate May County uh Board of Tourism is an incredible resource for anybody who has is in the hospitality business here um they can tell you exactly how many people are going to be here on a given
in in a given year um you know we know what months we're going to be busy what months we're not going to be busy we know that we could use some more hotel rooms in Gate May um at least that's my opinion from a community planning standpoint and I spent 20 years on a
planning board like yours just Manny real quick if if I may think the question is more once the investor is deciding whether or not to put this money down it would be a bank but yeah but what a investor bank however you want to categorize it you said a 5 to 10
year performer what exact documentation in terms of the likelihood of success are you going to provide to them it's all market study so what we did was we took we took the operational history of the Jetty Motel and Cong and and some of the Cape Resorts properties that were
had publicly they have public the their information is public uh and our 23 year experience in the Kate May market and we and we determined what our occupancy rate should be uh in and in Kate May it's about 67% for one year for one year
and and that's being open 12 months a year uh and then we assigned a value uh of what we felt like what is it what is in our comp set a comp set is what what other hotels do exactly what we do or have the amenities in the rooms that we
do and uh you you factor all those things in there's lots of footnotes to these tabs um and we didn't we wouldn't have presented this plan i would have not done this plan if we didn't already had a full understanding of the s the
you know the financial success of this project but to the mayor's point you didn't have any Cape May property to uh test it against because there is no Cape May property like Listen I used to appraise real estate all over the place
and the object is to find a property as similar as you can and then you just adjust it back to what you think it is to Cape May location yeah simple as that you can't you can't make anything up but you just find properties and you adjust for it that's all and the market's very specific you know i mean if you think
about you know if you think about what happens in here in July the last couple Julies have been very very slow for us at the end um unreasonably slow uh and you know it's it's it's kind of like the stock market you're constantly adjusting rate until you get to a sweet spot and
Zach knows this i mean you're constantly saying "Okay what's everybody doing?" And I we want to be within 5% of the top the lead the the the the leaders um and some hotels in Kate May outperform everybody else by miles uh so
we kind of discount them and say we're not going to be them and we get into a subset group and you know we we already have I don't know 4,000 rooms at the end booked already for 2025 um so and you know so we we have a
pretty good understanding of this marketplace and this by the way this is a small project okay this is a very small project the in is 51 52 rooms um and it has all kinds of facilities this is this is this is a very small project
um it has about a 13month 12 to 15month build time and that's with massive weather delays so it's not a big project mhm any other questions for Mr demutus okay um with that I think we'll pull up
our engineer and planner uh Mr andy Andy Schaefer thank you Manny schaefer do you swear affirm to tell the truth old truth and nothing but the truth stop your guide yes I do thank you all right Andy you know the drill i think you've been before this board before but to the extent they wish
discuss your qualifications your background and we'll get you i will 41 years as a professional engineer 37 as a professional planner i had to do the math before and um I have been before this board before and most other boards in uh all of Kate May County and Atlantic County
sure we're fine go ahead thank you um I've been to the site a number of times okay and just to be clear I think the item that you just put up is the uh the site plan correct that is correct it's the site plan as it was submitted i think
this will be A 9 or 10 it's been a while uh eight or nine seven eight i don't see a nine so I'm going to say eight or nine mr keenan would usually chime in here
it's 810 it's 810 yeah i don't know why I answered i just I should just asked our Give or take all right except for the parking we're going to discuss the site is completely in conformance with the ordinance and in fact we've lowered the impervious
coverage from a non-conforming 78 plus or minus% to 7 a little under 75% so that's one thing we brought into uh better conformance uh the site currently has I believe 34 rooms and I counted 38
parking spaces which I know there's a little bit of controversy over how many there really are existing so it's with the number of employees in an a motel only would have without a restaurant it's likely compliant with only a few employees involved so as stated a hundred times
before the amenities are meant to be for the residents or the guests only and as such I'm suggesting as a professional that we don't need a um a variance for the number of parking spaces and there are actually four spaces over what is
needed as long as the condition is set on the site that it's the amenities are only for the guest and no one else no public however we will need a variance for the um stacked parking recognize
that for sure but I think it shows some innovation to allow parking uh that cleans up what's already there so that it is not impinging upon the public streets in the way it does now andy very quickly if I may because I just want to address the quick comment that you made
you pushed back a little bit on whether or not we actually need the variance because we're limiting this to hotel guests only but you're still going to provide an analysis based on the positive and negative criteria under the assumption essentially that we do need that variance correct same argument i'm just going to say some because I'm
already picturing the titles on the appeal okay i just want to say I disagree with that position um because your own application claims that a hotel use is a hotel use so the fact that you're going to use it differently than anyone else doesn't mean you don't have to comply with the ordinance so I
believe you do need the variance for the hotel and the accessories uses uses that are there but you're just trying to justify that variance by using the hotel in a particular way so I disagree with your analysis that's correct that's okay we're allowed to disagree i didn't quite have a chance to finish and I think the board engineer agrees with me okay and
his letter bears that out um and quickly before we get to the parking variances I want to talk about the sight triangle uh variance that was brought up we're not going to be asking for that there mr hurles pointed out to me there are two different ways to calculate a sight
triangle one is the city ordinance which is a totally different shape than the ASHTTO uh state version of a sight triangle and we're either going to move the sign put it on the uh on the building itself but we will fully comply with all sight triangle requirements
both city and uh state mandated and then also the um okay that that addresses that so we still have two variances left for the number of parking spaces we're providing 79 parking spaces where uh 135 is
required um but we contend with the use which is a little unique would only require 75 spaces which would leave us four over and of course the um stacked parking is mitigated by the fact we're going to be doing valet parking so
nobody's going to be stacking their own cars in there um if I could go over some of the characterizing this as a C2 variance which has some familiarity with the even the D variance and providing positive and negative criteria uh for
the variance the first one I want to point out is there's an improvement into the public safety i counted 16 parking spaces that you have to back out onto a public rideway two parking spaces three excuse me three parking spaces that are very close to the intersection of Second
Avenue and um Beach Avenue it's just it's just a dangerous situation so what we're proposing is going to create an improvement to public safety for the motoring public uh additionally as far as the parking goes there are tent spaces that have a non-compliant depth
of parking as well as a non-compliant uh drive aisle in the same area another positive to the variance and the size and scope of the building will be that there's an aesthetically uh more positive than the current building which I know has already been
covered all of the driveways on Beach Avenue will be removed creating the opportunity if the city decides they want to do that to add six parking spaces now that six parking spaces is
calculated on uh on the other side of Second Avenue and Beach there's striped parking there now and they set back their parking from the curb of Second Avenue by 23 ft and their parking spaces are also 23 feet using that criteria
with the driveway at at the north end as well as Second Avenue of 23 feet spacing we have room for six parking spaces and there may or may not be available several parking spaces on Second Avenue depending on the protocol that the city
would want to use for the distances between driveway and parked cars but as a minimum there's an opportunity for the city to add six parking spaces or we add them however but they would still be city parking spaces and metered could you clarify
that you're talking about six spaces on Second Street and six six spaces on beach and depending on the protocol or distances between where parked cars are in the driveway there could be room for up to three spaces on second but I can't
necessarily promise or guarantee that oh in the plan you have six spaces on second i I know and that's I shouldn't and so if I can I'll be I'm honest i'll be simple with the three driveway locations
again depending on what the city decides in spacing between parking spaces and driveway there may or may not be room here there's certainly room that's dangerous can you pull that leg towards Thank
you there's a hair pin mark andy just make sure you speak into the microphone okay there's a hair Thank you there's a hairpin marking here which sets this first parking space on Beach Avenue 23 ft away from the curb line of Second Avenue we're suggesting
the same thing here and the same thing here where this parking or driveway is into the parking lot adjoining and there's more than ample room for six parking spaces along Beach but I can't guarantee or promise that we could ever do that without the city's input on
Second Avenue but to the extent the city required it that's something we we have the space to provide correct that's correct okay and that's the only part of beach that doesn't have parking parallel parking along there but they're all public spaces correct and they would be public they would continue to be public spaces
we don't need them for the parking regime as we have calculated it and the other thing it positive being an all-inclusive resort with its internal amenities as well as the proximity to
some of the other amenities restaurants and the beach in particular it's my contention that the cars would not be entering and exiting the site as often as the hotel only that exists there now would be because in many cases people
are going to want to take their car out because they're going to go somewhere where it's a little further than they want to walk whereas this would not eliminate that but it would reduce the number of trips in and out of the parking lot as in terms of negative criteria
criteria there is in my opinion no substantial negative cr impact being made and in spite of the variance requested there is ample light air and open space provided given that no coverage variances are being requested so we haven't overdeveloped
uh in terms of coverage of the building and I think you mentioned this before we're actually decreasing it from non-compliant to compliant correct that is correct so the requested variances while we I think still need a variance for the number of parking spaces is more
operational than it is the number of parking spaces because of the way we're going to be using the property which is a unique way yes I agree would limit the number of parking spaces truly needed to 75 providing 79 but if we were to open the doors and be pure open to the public
135 is actually the number I agreed And as already stated while stacked parking is not permitted here it is recognized in the ordinance for a Victorian hotel and I I do note that a Victorian hotel has a very limited uh definition of what qualifies as a
Victorian hotel but if I recall correctly the the catch for a Victorian hotel is that if you're going to have that one the size of the of the stacked lots has to be I think it's 9 by8 if I'm quoting that correctly
and on top of that exclusively valet no self parking that's correct and we would comply with both in this instance correct right except we don't fit the definition of Victorian understood yeah you you you alluded to the definition of a Victorian hotel just a minute ago what
is that definition i actually have it here i I anticipated this might come up so it's defined in section uh I think it's 525-4 of the ordinance a structure with at least a 100 rooms the main portion of which was constructed during or within 15 years
after the reign of Victoria Alexandrina Queen of the United Kingdom of Great and Britain and Ireland 1837 to 1901 well her her granddaughter just died but I don't think that So it's it's it's hyper particular for sure yeah and and
that hyper particular definition was crafted for a very specific reason mhm it it was never intended I don't believe to apply to new construction of any kind it was to give the people who owned those Victorian properties the
opportunity to convert them into B&Bs if they wanted to but but understanding that the on-site parking was going to be a problem for them they were never envisioning and maybe I'm wrong i wasn't around then i was only about six when this ordinance was passed i don't think
it was designed for B&Bs because the other portion of it is a structure with at least 100 rooms right so it's meant to cover I think very very large structures with very high during the reign of Queen Victoria right uh but it specifically did not envision
it being used or applied in any way to new construction no and I think what we're trying to do we're not necessarily saying we're Victorian therefore we meet this what we're trying to do is draw a comparison we're dealing with a hotel that doesn't have a 100 rooms rather has 53 but the the rationale of behind the
valet parking behind the the size of the spots designed to ensure that the parking remains on site and off the road we're simply trying to draw a comparison and say this is something that Kate May does recognize elsewhere and we think it's comparable the rationale is comparable here oh you want to hang your
hat on the Victorian thing okay okay i just want to make sure I understand why you're doing it okay and one last positive that I did forget to mention in terms of the um shared access uh easement that exists between lot 1501
which is us and 15.02 where there is a house constructed now there there is existing parking on that easement uh head in parking and it's used in the dry it's used as a drive vial for seven or eight parking spaces that currently
exists there it has a trash dumpster uh I measured the other day 16 ft from the corner of the house and it's not contained inside a um enclosure like which would be required for a new facility as such under the proposed
conditions those parking spaces would not be there they'd be removed the dumpster would be put inside the building near the entrance to Second Avenue so it's going to be moved far away from that so it's going to limit the amount that the hotel uses that
access easement compared to today and I think it the sole use of that of that that easement area because we're not necessarily using the easement but the area um adjacent to that it is strictly going to be limited to loading and unloading right we have a loading zone that will be intermittently used but
cars will still easily be able to bypass that loading zone uh while even if it's being used and that's actually the current loading zone as it exists today correct so that's not changing correct okay speaking of that I had one one more question uh on do do you have this uh
parking lot set up yes yeah the uh receiving and wheeled trash area uh from the from the design of this piece of paper it doesn't look like there's any way to get in or out of it it would be from the exterior of the building
you're not showing any kind of door anywhere that's just it you mean a door to put trash in there in the first place from the hotel and to get it out into the dumpster which is going to be in the easement is the access to that going to be through the building so the access is by opening
doors to the building that are normally kept shut from the where the loading zone is and there are doors inside the garage to put uh refues into the trash container to begin with and the the first floor plan shows an elevator over that space but it doesn't show it at the
bottom on the ground level i think we need the architect yeah Steve can we because I think we're we're talking about the floor plane here so this this might be your area can I ask a question i I don't know of
which professional at this point so you've got 19 employees they're all going to valet park no employees I think is just the maximum per large shift and actually that was something that I think both Mike and Manny were going to testify to and and they can be brought up to do so that
that's actually just and if you can address that yes the parking lot is sized for all 19 employees to park on site under the building in the valet and they'll valet park yes okay all right and the valet parking so I pull in I get
out of my car I go into the hotel the next day I'm checking out what's the operation how is my car getting out without having cars stacked and parked on beach or wherever the easement there one way in and one way out so there's
two aisles that cars can be stacked one coming in and on the other side coming out 79 cars are going like this so I'm I'm car number four well there are parking spaces okay so you could easily pull me out and get into the other side and I'm not saying I'm trying
to visualize yeah and I'm not saying there won't be times that cars have to jockey around especially a couple months out of the year okay but that's what valet parking is so they they can take advantage of some of the drive aisle space to park cars i just find it interesting that you're going to valet park all your employees seven well I I
don't think there's any other way to do it no there isn't it's either all or none nine did you answer my question i I think he's he's checking the the floor plan now oh we were giving a little breather there to figure out what the elevator
looks like trash comes down the elevator oh that's right out the door all right so it comes down the elevator can be all Okay so we got the trash coming into the space how do we get it out of the space is there going to be a door there yes there's a door there so on the architectural plan
it's on the architectural yeah it's not on this plan correct so the truck will be able to pull in pick up the dumpster load it and then put it back inside the building okay now also on this plan uh if Do you have it there yeah I have right next to that receiving area and
wheeled trash area there's seven parking spaces am I right in assuming that's correct yes they're also stacked yes yeah no there is no wall there they could potentially pull out
oh they're going to pull out into the into the easement they can yes there is no wall there right okay well there's a wall on the plan so I know that okay a requirement that says if you're going to have the parking under
I believe you're right so I originally designed the site plan for those seven spaces to be stacked so what you just heard your engineer he said if they're underneath a building it needs being closed so those spaces will be stacked so there's now now we're up
to 14 now we're up to the same 14 it's still 14 spaces wait no you've got the 14 lined up over here but now we're going to add another seven on that there's a total of 14 stack spaces uh I I on your plan it shows one two three four five on that side five on
that side two and two that's 14 and then these seven would be 21 okay I stand corrected you'd be right thank you sorry about that i I got to write something down on what just happened i have to write something I have to write something down on what just happened
there so Greg help me out essentially I think it's we're we're recounted and they said there's 21 stacked parking spaces rather than 14 rather than 14 and to Deputy Mayor McDade's point we
heard earlier Hold on i want to get res down on paper and that's because they're closing in a wall that would that was going to be an exterior open to the exterior but when that closes it creates the stack parking right okay can I go
yes sir thank you Mr app deputy Mayor McDade's question was answered earlier i think you pull you're the valet operation they're going to pull inside the garage yes stack your car there there's going to be no stacking on Second Street correct right because
there'll be parking meters there perhaps again I can't speak for what the city may or may not want to do with those with that new curb space there got it now also you show you show two EV parking spaces in this uh map right but one of the EV parking spaces is also
handicap space that's right that's typically how we do it um the law is a little bit gray but it appears that you have to provide at least one of each one handicap and one regular parking space is there a numerical load that that
determines how many spaces you have yes for handicap yes what is that um it varies but it's roughly 2% of the total 2% of the total roughly i mean there's a there's a table and I don't have it memorized and the EV is uh same formula
or is it different no oh yes there is a formula the state has for I believe it's one space for every the first 50 parking spaces and so we have two okay so you have two but one's actually doing double duty correct
so the eventuality that two people show up with an EV vehicle and neither of them are handicapped they don't get to use that that's correct okay got it now also uh on that seven um the seven stack spaces that we found
on the back wall there three of them look like they're not consistent with the minimum size of a parking space because there's a wall there there is but there there is extra space there to do that so they're all 9 by 18 so So the
the five that aren't Well one of them actually is so the four that aren't there they're they're extra large yes and then the three that are against the wall in a limited space they're they're still legal is that what you're saying
yes all of them are 9 by8 there's a little extra space between them for the columns okay and and also on the documents that you provided to committee you you included a document from uh 2011 which concerned the
easement says that the 20 foot wide easement over the proposed new lot 15.01 is for the benefit of the proposed lot 15.02 uh you're you're going to use part
of that however as a space for dumpsters no no for the loading zone yes no it wouldn't be for a dumpster it's going to be a loading zone it's what it is that it's the loading zone is essentially staying the same as it exists today in the And then also the easement has a row
of vegetation on the uh far side yes is that part of the is that part of the easement or is that in addition to the easement no it's part of the easement so the easement is the the width of the easement for vehicle use is actually more less than 25
that's correct what is it no I don't I don't think No it's You can't drive over bushes 25 ft i mean you can It's not less than No it's not less than 25 ft the easement says 25 ft right but part
of it is a planting of of bushes trees there's a big tree at the bottom of it right uh is that part of the 25 and in which case how can it be an easement for access to the back lot you mind if I come up greg it's 20 ft
it's only 20 no I know and while you're doing that if I could ask a question for the EV parking spaces is that limited to the resort guests or open to anyone off the street that needs to charge their EV limited to the the
resort guests okay show it but here is he asking what the cartway is is he asking what the paved cartway is that mason right there wait I'm sh It's a big tree in the back of there dennis we'd like to move along if we can
he's I think he's got an answer but I'd like to move along the easement and the paving is 25 ft wide the shrubbery shown the greenery is actually on the next lot and it's already there but it's inside the retaining wall that's there right it's all the way up there
there's a there's a retaining wall on that property yeah but I'm not sure exactly where that retaining wall is relative to the but it's it's not on our property and it's not it's not included and the retaining wall are all are all on the other side that's proposed is on this side of the
your side of the retaining wall okay so it does cut down on so so it is a little limited it's less than 25 ft for the paved area however to the extent if the board wanted us to remove that that's something we'd certainly remove the shruby yeah whatever the board's
pleasure is in terms of if you want to leave all that the 25 feet without the addition of the shrubbery that's certainly something we're willing to consider removing it's that's that's fine we could ask the environment sorry sure i'm sorry go ahead while we're talking about that area so I raised a
question as to Sorry i raised the question as to whether it's appropriate for you to be proposing a 12 by 55 ft loading area within that easement
who who is the easement in favor of have they signed off on that um the legality of you doing that so in terms of the legal analysis I mean it's a it's a non-exclusive easement obviously the the property owner which we would be of of
that land were permitted to use it it's being used as a loading area now it would continue to be to be so um and again this isn't meant to be kind of adversarial with the board it's just stating what what the law as I see it um exists and Mr king is is welcome to
disagree with me the terms of the easement the applicant's rights under the easement the easement holders rights under the easement what we're permitted to do and not permitted to do is not within the purview of the board necessarily if the easement holder is of the opinion that it should not be there that it runs
interference the appropriate mechanism by which to enforce that or for us to do so vice versa um is in superior court so I don't necessarily I I'm just from a zoning standpoint the reason I asked the question is because you're required to have a loading zone and if you're not
able to put it there then you need a variance from that so that's the appropriate analysis for this board is can you provide it or can you not provide it yes we can provide it in that area here's my uh here's my view of it that
then it matters um if it is a it appears to be a non-exclusive easement which means that you can have an easement where uh I don't want to talk about dominant and servant estate i it it the big property and then the flag lot okay we
we'll call it that so that's a bad example but the narrow part you can have where that's exclusive where only the property behind it can use it and that means the property that gave it to him can't use it at all that's an exclusive easement but then you can have a non-exclusive easement where both parties can still use it right this is
by all appearances a non-exclusive easement meaning both parties can use it the extent to which each one of them can use it by and I I do a lot of easement litigation you know they they can't unreasonably interfere with the purposes of the easement right but some judge has
to decide that zoning boards don't decide that and really the applicants don't decide that what we do is zoning so what I say that we do is we say you need a lo they want to put a loading zone there fine we say you need a loading zone and the loading zone is
there if they can't put the loading zone there then they can't build the building um but it's for them to work that out if they try to put a loading zone there and then the um what we call the dominant estate the people have who they gave it
to go to court and the court says no that's an unreasonable use of that area you can't put a loading zone there then they can't build the building because they can't meet our condition but that's for them to work out we're doing zoning zoning says they proposed a loading zone there it looks like the right size loading zone I'll leave the engineers to
decide that and that's where it goes and if for some reason some judge decides that that's an unreasonable use then that's their problem and just one quick addition because you disagree with that analysis not at all i'm just want to just add to that actually supplement it according to the easement itself because I'm going to read it into the record
very quickly it's recorded in PA uh book 104 pages uh 630 to 634 at in Kate May County it says quote verbatim it's a non-exclusive easement for pedestrian and vehicular vehicular ingress and
egress for the benefit of block 12 1012 lot 14 uh excuse me lot 15.02 so the term non-exclusive easement is right there in the language some judge is going to decide whether a loading zone is ingress no I I I would disagree there yeah we're going to say you have a lo
you're going to decide if that loading zone we're going to require the loading zone to be there it's required they're putting it there if ifies they can't have it then they're not compliant with their site plan approval rich would a judge also decide what this language
means in terms of the uh the easement is for the benefit of the proposed lot would that factor into a judge's decision about whether or not this is doable a lot of things will factor in apparently it's a loading zone now and cars go up and down it so for the hotel so I mean usage is a factor custom and
usage and past practices so some some judge will will do all that we're not doing that tonight we have enough to do we're putting in a loading zone the zoning zone's required and the applicant will work either work it out with the other owner or a judge will decide it we're not doing that just one more
question about that is the current loading zone inside the current property bound or is it in the easement no those are the the purpose of an easement is that an easement is on the property that's why it's an easement otherwise it wouldn't be their property
i get it but the current hotel or motel has a loading zone is it inside the property of the hotel or is it in the loading or is it in the easement okay i I just want to restate that the easement is on the hotel property it's just a portion of the hotel property that can
be used by someone else right isn't that correct yes okay that's the difference between a flag lot and an easement if it was a flag lot it'd be owned by the property behind it and they would own that area and we wouldn't even be using the word easement so you're moving the whole uh loading zone fully into the
easement that's what they're No the the the loading zone is staying in the same spot that ex that exists today okay it's not being that's the only thing in the easement that's currently in the easement area that's not being moved the trash and recycling the the additional
spaces that the hotel is using all of that is being removed so we're actually lessening any level of interference and I'm I'm using that not necessarily as a term of art okay well I mean I'm not going to litigate the case but sure it has a restaurant now that wasn't there before so it's going to be a different
loading but that's that's for someone else to deal with the board I'm just directing my board not to deal with that put a loading zone there and whether they can have it or not lawyers and judges and hopefully maybe neighbors will even work that out shockingly so we'll see what happens so let them let them deal with that
i don't we have seven minutes left tonight so let's use it other than on the easement go ahead all right just flying through some of the other uh site issues um the building height and the Koopa are all compliant with the ordinance
um we agree to conform to the CH flood dam flood damage protection requirements and that's basically uh floodgates as opposed to lifting the building higher uh because it is commercial and we do show the 12 x 55
loading area as required uh the lighting in the pool area will be provided uh but it'll be a dark sky compliant uh type of lighting system uh the freestanding sign uh depending on where that ends up will still be externally lit not internally
lit we are providing the uh uh EV parking spaces as required uh we are confirming that the self-p parking will be not be permitted on the site but it'll be all uh with um valet parking thank you
and the rightway improvements we'll be placing curbon sidewalk along and again we'll have to get approval from the city to and also to determine how many parking spaces and if they even want parking on Beach and Second Avenue but
we are available to provide that if they desire that uh the we need to I need help on the trash and recycling schedule other than business hours i think need something a little more definitive than that correct yeah it just said during business hours
but hotels are open 24/7 so like we want to make sure that the loading area and the unloading of recyclables whatever is not going to wake everyone up in the middle of the night so we need some So I think Manny you know being the current
operator of the current hotel uh when is trash picked up uh I don't know it's on a regular it's regularly scheduled um I I know that just to to answer when that lot was subdivided by this board that
lot was subdivided by this board I don't know 2010 or so and that's when that was the creation of the flag lot well not the flag lot the the lot and and the easement uh the easement gives uh the property owner the
right to to get in and out of his out of his place um and then and currently uh and since that time since we've owned the jetty since 2005 um trash has been back there and deliveries been taken back there so very
quickly you you said you didn't know for sure exactly when trash is picked up but it's at the same time every day or how often a week and three times a week yeah three times a week um I can get you a trash schedule i don't want to Can we restrict it to 9 to5 yes yes absolutely
also and yes the same for recycling yes thank you and then lastly storm water management is complied with because we're actually reducing the uh coverage of impervious coverage of the site compared to existing so it's a it's a positive in that sense
any additional questions for Mr schaefer either from an engineering or planner perspective from the board seeing none um that concludes the applicant's primary testimony um I would simply just reserve the right to be able to respond to both the objector their
council and public comment as well and whether via cross-examination or by bringing our our um uh witnesses back up to to respond to some of those comments so I've reserved that right before we go too much further um I just would like to ask is is there the opportunity you you
discussed at the very beginning that you had conceptional approval from the HPC correct yes is there a way to provide this board with some documentation of that because we could be going through this i'm telling you
depending when they did it for for what what minutes could we pull up you know there there's got to be some mechanism you can get a transcript of the application but for most of my tenure here there was no document that came out of conceptual approval except for the
last maybe 18 months and that honestly probably was the source of the confusion i probably had asked the applicant or their professionals for the conceptual approval that I know they now give when they said they didn't have it I I I unfort shame on me assumed that we didn't have any at all but we did have
conceptual approval but I without a doubt know it was when Mr refund commission twice twice from the from the full commission yes i I I don't I have no idea i will tell you that the last application that I remember for this project the place was taller and
different and there was a height variance requested at one point yeah dorsa Steve Fenwick's wife got it for us in 2006 and and then sometime around 2010 uh Steve got it based on a change but again we we would agree so but I I
am just requesting that at some point because obviously we're running short on time that I would like to see that at some point if we're going to you know progress there's got to be a mechanism whether it's minutes or a letter or
something that the HPC gave some conceptual approval because we could be going through all this rigomearroll and then end up right back here if the HPC said "Hey you got if the last time you presented to them was in
2010 well I know I I I just think it's important that you go back to them now have a conversation about someone finding documentation that you got some type I mean they've changed their design standards so you it's an entirely new design standard so
I'm not sure how that impacts your project you would want to you would want to know that sure sure the original approvals and if and if there's a conflict in the design standards we'll go back absolutely i would just say we kind of be in that position anyway because I know the HPC will not give final approval for any project i I
understand that i'm trying to make sure that all the ducks are as we're moving forward understood you know questions can be asked answered and then you know and also HPC acts in two different ways they have subcommittees that review
plans then they have complete approval by the full board we need to know which one that is and we need a documentation of it also Rich to answer your question back in 20 22 I guess the building height and
the proposal was 43 ft non-compliance non non-conforming but it's been reduced to uh 35 plus uh five for the CO i just knew there was different shapes to the building yeah it was 43 but I I don't
know what they approved yep okay hey look it's it's 10:00 normally Craig would be on now for his pres you are you guys done are you done now yes again just simply reserving the right to eventually respond to the objectors and public comment normally Craig would be would be saying something at this point
and then we would open it up to the public and then based on whatever their questions are we might have questions for your experts or something like that and along those lines uh and would allow the experts I mean the your expert to present something on behalf of the of
the of the off of the objector the objectors so when do when are we be able to reschedu this like what do you think are they there won't be any new resubmission is
that correct not at this time no there's no intention because the board has has made clear they want to move forward with this particular their proposal we h we have another application to be heard i believe it's May 13th so I don't know if what you're
thinking do you want to do it in June do you want to do it at a work session well I don't mind doing it at a work session but May you have a problem doing a work session so what So what date are we looking at then april 22nd we're not It's not the
13th so we have uh April 22nd May 27th i'm I'm not available on April 22nd that I know May 27th I believe is available may 27th may May 27th is work session
meeting may that well that was the date that was provided i'm not available okay i think a bunch of us have some conflicts on the 27th also so June 10th should be fine
may 13th oh I'm definitely June 10th is available as well all right so we'll do it June 10th uh do they have to re do anything uh this matter will be uh continued on June 10th at
6:30 unless the committee changes the times between now and then and you know what i'll I'll make I'll make it easy if the committee changes the time just let me know and I'll renotice for the new time just to make it very easy for the members of the public so they know exactly what time to be there all right
so um this here this U application will be continued on June 10th june 10th june 10th there will be no further notice if it's to take place at 6:30 on June 10th if that date or time changes the applicant would probably have to renotice but as of now this will be your
only notice so if you tend to appear come at that time thank you we are sorry that the public had no say today but at sometimes that's just the way it happens um so we motion to adjurnn now or what
anything else all right is there a motion to adjurnn i make a motion all in favor i thank you everyone good night nay peter oh boy the mic's
off everybody keep your Oh no