##VIDEO ID:a7EBVaeC_eU## um I wasn't oh testing testing yeah e e e e e by who now they're talking please turn on your microphones in compliance with the open public meetings Act of 1975 adequate notice of this meeting has been provided if any member has reason to believe this meeting is being held in violation of this act they should state so at this time we'll have the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the repu for na indivisible andice for okay we'll have the roll call Mrs Werner here Mr venudo here Mr Lewin here Mrs Notch here miss Sheen here Mr Walsh here Mr Zer here Mr Jagger here miss Stevenson thank you and before we do the um oos of office we'd like to welcome Mr joerger to the board thank you very much glad to be here okay so you're who who is it that's being sworn in tonight so we have Mary Notch Timothy Walsh Teresa Werner Michael jger and Sarah Stevenson okay what I'm going to do is I'm gonna I'm going to read it and then you're going to say if you uh agree each of you solemnly swear that you will support the Constitution of the United States and the state of New Jersey that you will bear true faith and allegiance to the same and to the government established in the United States and in this state under the authority of the people and that you will Faithfully partially and justly perform all the duties of the office of Zoning Board of a judment member according to the best of your ability and that will you will not use your office to Grant preferential treatment nor to seek personal gain favor or Advantage not available to the Gan general public do each of you so agree yes yes do congratulations thank you for serving and if you could sign your form does each of you have a form I to see you sign your form my glass s and U I will I will notarize it for you if you pass it down this way we'll collect them all notarize them and give you the thank you chair you can move forward okay so the next thing is the election of a chairperson we need a nomination IID like to nominate Terry Warner I'll second any other discussion okay um Mr venudo motions Miss Sheen seconds Mr Lewin yes Mrs not yes Miss Sheen yes Mr Walsh yes Mr zexer yes Mr venudo yes Mrs wner yes thank you thank you okay next we'll have the election of the vice chair and I would like to make a nomination for Sam venudo my second Mrs uh any other discussion Mrs wner motions Mrs not seconds Mr Lewin yes Mrs Notch yes Miss Sheen yes Mr Walsh yes Mr Zer yes Mr vudo yes Mrs wner yes thank you okay our next item is the appointment of our board attorney and I would like to nominate Richard King of King borns I'll second hey Mrs wner motions Miss she in seconds Mr Lewin yes Mrs Notch yes missan yes Mr Walsh yes Mr Zer yes Mr vudo yes Mrs wner yes thank you thank you everyone you you know I enjoy this probably more than anything else I do I do actually okay now we also need a motion to approve the resolution appointing Richard King as Board of I'll make the motion so Mr zeter I'll second and Mrs Notch okay Mr xer motions Mrs no seconds Mr Lewin yes Mrs N yes Miss Shen yes Mr Walsh yes Mr Zer yes Mr vudo yes Mrs Werner yes thank you okay we have the appointment of our board engineer and planner and I would like to nominate Craig hurle of hurless planning and Engineering I'll second Mrs wner motions Miss Sheen seconds Mr Lewin yes Mrs N yes Miss Sheen yes Mr Walsh yes Mr zexer yes Mr venudo yes Miss Mrs wner yes thank you okay and a motion to approve the resolution appointing Craig hurles as the board engineer I'll make the motion second Mr bero motions Mr Zer seconds Mr Lewin yes Mrs not yes Miss Shan yes Mr Walsh yes Mr Zer yes Mr vudo yes Mrs Werner yes thank you thanks everyone she enjoy it as much as Rich he works a lot harder okay we have the adoption of the meeting dates and times we need a motion in a second so move second Mr lwin motions Miss Shen seconds Mr lwin yes Mrs N yes Miss Shen yes Mr Walsh yes Mr zexer yes Mr venudo yes Mrs wner yes thank you okay uh we need to designate the official newspaper for Public Notices uh right now council is using the haral yeah the Harold is the official newspaper there aren't two official newspapers that's the newspaper you have to publish in and for some reason the Harold isn't publishing then the backup is the Atlantic City Press but it's not something where if you just happen to miss the deadline for the herald or whatever you get to do the Atlantic City Press if the Harold is being published that's where our citizens go to see what's going on that's where people have to publish so I'm putting that on the record because I get asked the question sometimes by Council and I tell them that I know the intent because I said it at the meeting where we passed it so you're voting to make the H the official paper if that's not publishing then they can publish in the Atlantic City I make the motion I'll second Mrs Notch motions Miss Sheen seconds Mr Lewin yes Mrs not yes Miss Sheen yes Mr Walsh yes Mr Zer yes Mr venudo yes Mrs Werner yes thank you okay the next we need um a motion for the minutes of of November 14th 2024 I'll make the motion I'll second I'll second okay Mr vudo and Miss Stevenson okay Mr vudo motions Miss Stevenson seconds Mr Lewin abstain Mrs Notch yes Miss Sheen yes Mr Walsh yes Mr zexer yes Mr vudo yes Mrs wner abstain thank you now we need a motion to approve the minutes of December 12th 2024 I'll make the motion second okay I got that one missan motions Mr lwin Seconds Mr lwin yes Mrs Notch yes Miss Sheen yes Mr Walsh yes Mr zexer yes Mr vudo yes Mrs wner yes thank you uh can we uh go on to the other resolutions um thank you okay so we have a resolution for Christopher roner 1514 vento Avenue somebody okay I just want to say something about that one we did something that we don't usually do on that one so I just wanted to go over the voting on that one is the one we voted on twice we voted had to do with a height of offense in moving it back a little bit we gave them two ways to win basically and they they lost both to my election so um but the first one everyone voted no on the second one four voted no and three voted yes so what I'm going to ask is that anyone who voted yes the three of you who voted yes on the second one just abstain from this resolution and let the people who voted no both times vote Yes on this resolution okay so basically all you need to know is if you weren't here abstain if you voted and you voted yes at all during that application then abstain everyone else should vote Yes okay anybody have any questions okay okay so we need a motion I'll make the motion I'll second hey Miss in motions Mr venudo Seconds Mr Lewin yes Mrs Notch yes Miss Shen yes Mr Walsh yes Mr Zer I believe abstain all the yeses have gone so that's the good news okay thank you Mr venudo I did Mr Veno you have to answer the way yes Mrs wner abstain thank you okay who were the yes votes on that two right now yeah well I I think Tim didn't you vote I yes for no for both of them defenses for both or do you vote Yes for the forf foot if you if you voted if you voted yes on either question last time then you should abstain this time the first application was for the six foot high fence I voted no for that right and that allowed them to have the four foot fence right right second was to have the fence move back I voted no on you voted no both times yes okay yeah he did I remember yeah I can't be right do you have three everybody I was told the vote was four to three so corre there can only be four people who should be voting uh yes in this resolution so if there's five someone is mistaken you were in favor Le and V were in favor soain we're counting the yeses yes people voted only two people should have voted there's seven votes right and the last one was four was four four three four no oh wait it was four Nos and three s's so so then that means only two only four people voted no both times so that means there should be only four yeses today someone has so Mr lwin would you like to change your vote no he voted you voted yes did you vote Yes either time last week I voted yes the first one no the second okay then then you need to abstain right Karen yeah yes you did that's how you voted you vote to abstain abstain okay thank you all right we're scare now thank you right it was confusing we we don't usually do that but we try to that's what we get for ch so the um next resolution was for Anna Diaz Ru and Jose Tapia gradus we need a motion I'll make the motion second Mr seter seconded by Mrs Walsh okay thank you Mrs N so we have a motion by motion by Mr zexer seconded by Mrs Notch Mr Lewin yes Mrs n yes Miss Sheen yes Mr Walsh yes Mr Zer yes Mr venudo yes Mrs wner yes thank you okay we have an added resolution for the um facts and conclusions of the Zoning Board of adjustments for the 2023 decisions that we all discussed at the last meeting we just have a resolution now to to say that we had that discussion so we need a motion I'll make the motion second okay Mr renewa motions Mr Lewin seconds Mr Lewin yes Mrs not yes Miss Shan yes Mr Walsh yes Mr Zer yes Mr vudo yes Mrs wner yes thank you okay that takes care of everything you agree okay okay so we're ready for our application Mr King would you like to announce the uh adjournment of the young application of which one the young applications the second one listed on the agenda yes ma'am thank you there's an application on our agenda William and Emily Young 122 de C Street block 1041 lot 6 for variance relief that application at the request of the applicant has been adjourned in March 7 2025 same time and place 6:00 in this room there will not be another publish not notice this is your notice so if you wish to be heard on that application you should appear here at 6 o'clock on March 27th 2025 thank you okay so our application is um for 1206 Merlin Avenue block 1132 Lot 8 this is an appeal from the decision of the zoning officer good evening board members my name is Lindsay Nukem from the law firm of monzo Kaden deales here tonight uh on behalf of uh Steve KAC the property address is 1206 Maryland Avenue Steve is here with me tonight he is a representative he is the applicant uh of the owners of the property Harold and Judith KC and Donald and Susan Miller Steve is also a registered architect and professional planner in the state of New Jersey um and once he puts his qualifications on the record uh if the board accepts him as an expert he will testify in that way as well um we are here tonight on two separate applications uh that are being combined um well one will be first and then depending how that goes the other one will be heard the first is an appeal of a zoning denial dated September 23rd 2024 the denial was for for the alteration of a detach garage at 1206 Maryland Avenue the denial was based upon the requirement uh for a variance for a change in use a copy of the zoning denial and the notice of violation were submitted with a part of that application the property owner was doing uh renovation work on the detached garage the garage door was removed as a part of that process which converted the detached garage to other out building under the zoning code uh as you know garage and other outbuilding have different bulk standards uh accordingly we understand that variance relief is required to permit the renovation uh to convert the building to other outbuilding uh that will be the second part of this application um if the appeal on the first part uh is granted the appeal isn't based on the categor categorization of the renovation as an other out building the appeal is based on the ter determination by uh your zoning officer that habitable area was created in this accessory structure um they can I ask me a question about that sure and I'm sorry I just make sure I understand but sure if if you thank you machine uh if if you agree that this went from being a garage to an out building and that that change of use occurred outside of the permitted building area meaning it's in a sidey yard or a rear yard don't you need a variance no matter what or you dis like we do that's the second application we get to the second one no matter what because when you say it depends how it goes I think it doesn't well it does only because how many we consider in the second one right well no it does actually depend if we get there because if habitable it it's our position that habitable area was not added to this out structure however if it was that changes the variance request to a d variance right that we aren't here before the board on we'll have to figure out how how to address that if habitable was area was added it is a second principal structure again it's our position that it was not added that's why we're appealing that decision but I fully acknowledge that we need to apply for bulk variance relief for other outbuilding for the successory structure does that make sense um I'm sure it does you said it so it probably makes sense just my I may not understand it so um and this is just I want to make sure we vote on the right stuff so what you're appealing is not the decision that this became an out building a other out building correct okay you're not appealing that I am not so we agree that you're changing the use in the structure and that that structure is a is in the setback yes so you definitely need some kind of variance for that you need so we're going to get to a second issue yes second here okay yep what you're not sure about is depending on how they vote on whether this is habitable space right when we get to the second part you might also need a Dev when we get to that the if this is determined that it's habitable space this application will be converted from one for bulk variance relief for an outbuilding to a d variance for a second principal structure on the lot which was not a part of our application so I I I believe unless the board disagrees in which case we could proceed in that manner certainly that we would need to come back before the board for that application okay I Mis then then I misunder OD I I when I heard you were also including a variance request with your appeal I assumed that you had the use variance I did not be I I did not the answer is we did not um again if the board is inclined to hear that we can proceed on that but again did notice for that no that's why I don't think that that's appropriate but if the board wants to hear it by all means we can hear whatever we want right exactly it doesn't mean it's a valid hearing so we do it okay I good I understand better now thank you okay does the board have any questions I know that that was no okay um so as I was saying the appeal is not based on the categorization of the renovation as converting the space to other out building we understand that in the removal of the garage door itself and putting in a regular door that that conversion occurred that this garage although not moved not changed inside in size requires bulk relief to exist as an other out building at that location um so if the board agrees with us tonight on our appeal that habitable space was not created we will be proceeding for bulk variant relief for other out building in the setbacks so in talking about the appeal the zoning officers notice of violation states that the accessory structure must be returned to the condition it existed prior to the alteration work that was done building must remain a detached two-car garage with no habitable space that's where we get to this habitable space issue the determination that habitable space area was created is important because other outbuildings can't be used for human habitation or for living space so an other outbuilding cannot have habitable space such That's the basis for our appeal it's our position um that the habitable area has not been created in the renovation of the structure habitable area is a defined term under the city code it's defined as an interior finished room enclosed by a floor and ceiling and permanent weather resistant walls which has a minimum floor to seal height of 6 and 1/2 ft which is intended primarily for human occup occupancy um it's also important to note that living accommodations have not been created during this renovation living accommodations is also defined in your city code a living accommodation is a kitchen bathing facility sleeping quarters toilets and toilet facilities or any other Improvement intended to support human habitation so we go back to that kind of habit habitable area human habitation portion uh of this so again it is our position tonight on appeal that habitable area has not been created in this other out building that we acknowledge we need to proceed for variance relief for the other out building but that habitable area has not been created what you'll hear in testimony from Mr cowc the owner is that the other out building um has always been insulated there was drywall on three of the four walls the only area that wasn't insulated was the garage door itself that it has always had electricity run to it there's nothing new there there is no water run to it now it is not it does not have a bathroom it does not have any of the qualifications that would make this property intended for human or not this property that building intended for human occupancy um Rich do you want to swear Stephen and I'll ask him some questions sure sir do you swear or affirm to tell the truth all truth nothing about the truth and our board Engineers being sworn in as well I do I do Steve uh you're here tonight as an author authorized representative of the property owners and the applicant on this application correct yes um and you are uh also a registered architect and professional planner in the state of New Jersey is that correct I am can you uh put your qualifications on the record for the board so I have a master's in architecture from NJIT uh that I received in the year 2000 I've been licensed by the state of New Jersey as a registered architect since 2005 as a licensed professional planner since 2006 uh licenses are all in good standing uh for a long time uh my father and I were partners he he founded our firm in uh back in 1976 uh he just retired only a few years ago he just turned 91 um but had the benefit of over 20 years of uh of working at his side and all all of his uh lengthy experience um appeared in front of many boards all over the State not this one I'm happy to be here um but uh I think that sums it up will the board accept Mr KAC as an expert in uh planning and architecture tonight yes yes although my my my question goes not to his qualifications as an architect or planner that's that's fine is he is he someh connected to the owner go ahead Steve so the so two two there there's four owners of record on the property two of whom are my parents two of whom are my wife's parents in actuality there's there's eight contributing owners so it includes uh my my wife and myself my my sister-in-law and brother-in-law and as I mentioned my parents and my wife's parents so so when you testified to the Past use the past use and the intended use which I assume you're going to do tonight you're doing that based on personal knowledge correct correct I want to get okay good thank you um Steve you kind of did a little bit but can you just briefly explain your uh history with this property for the board Sorry Miss Nukem that's okay so no that's fine um sure so um you know sort of lifelong um uh relationship with with Kate may my you know my my family and I uh vacationed here for almost as long as I can remember um and when my wife and I got married in 1997 uh we started coming down as a whole group so her whole family my whole family um and did that for many years and always talked about um you know trying to find a place that we could that we could call home once the grandkids started appearing it became really evident that we needed uh that we really needed to find some place so in 2008 we we got uh very we were fortunate enough to find uh this property at that time it was a single story uh kind of kind of modified shotgun house um we uh we designed an addition we constructed two two stories on top um and and that was designed really to accommodate the four households that that uh that are that are part of that are part of this property so there's there's room for you know both sets of grandparents and there's room for the two kind of younger families um to be comfortable and to and to all kind of uh use use the house and we do all use it together so we we we often are all there together uh we use it separately we use it in various combinations of households um so uh it's um it's it's kind of a just a home base for the extended family that was formed when my wife and I got married um we do uh we do also uh rent the property for usually about eight weeks in the summer we keep we keep a some of the summer for ourselves um but we do sort of uh make the most use of it in the in the offseason we're here on holidays we're here on weekends um various times throughout the year um and Steve to uh just to correct the record I guess for the benefit of the board um an error on the application do you have a mertile license for this property we do um can you uh talk a bit um about the renovation um and the scope of work that was completed there sure so um you know when we when we built the addition um and that was back in 2010 uh we we intended to make improvements to this structure at that time as well and at that time the the the the structure was more or less um function the same way it it it's never functioned as a garage um it was you know when when we bought the house there was a there was a large workbench in there there were there were storage racks in there um you know it was it was clearly used as a workshop and a storage space and that's how we always used it as well um so because because we do rent the house for for those few weeks in the summer we need a place to keep uh our things so we always had a spare fridge at least one spford sometimes more than one uh that was out there where we kept where we kept uh you know food and and Frozen stuff we always had canned goods and Dry Goods storage out there um but then that was also the same place where the lawnmower was and the bikes and the beach stuff and the tools and the building supplies and household supplies and all that kind of stuff so it was always um kind of a jumble um and because of the the the condition of the garage door which was not great um basically the garage door never really functioned properly um it and it was it was an oddball size it's about 4 in shorter than a than a standard garage door so I could never replace it it had a it had a sizable hole in it that could never be repaired because it was made of an obsolete material um so we we always I mean the somehow you know piles of leaves would find their way under that door everything that could creep and crawl would find their way under that door so you know as a as a storage space um and a place to to sort of work on your bike work on your your your fishing gear whatever it might be um it was always a little musty a little kind of creepy to be in there um filled with filled with leaves filled with with bugs very difficult to keep very difficult to keep Oran organized so the you know after sort of years of of living with it this way and and and as I said we intended to do to make the improvements back when we did the the house but we really just kind of I guess ran out of steam at a certain point it was a it was a sizable renovation we were kind of you know by the time we got to the end of it we were exhausted and and didn't really want to continue at that point um so uh you know finally it got to the point where the the the shingles the shingles on the roof were were very degraded the siding you know didn't match for one was also kind of had seen better days garage door as I mentioned was in bad shape you know the Finish inside was was getting getting mildewy from from dampness and whatever else um so it was you know it was just time to give it uh a little bit of a once over so we did did replace the the the the shingles on the roof we put new siding on uh on two sides uh the two sides that that are visible to to us um we did eliminate the the overhead door we we added a uh a man door in the front we added a small window in the front facing portion um we there's an existing mandor on the side which we didn't touch that stayed in place um we did replace an existing window on the side um and we also replaced some exterior lighting as far as the interior um we replaced the the wall finish with new sheetrock and the ceiling as well we didn't touch the insulation ins insulation remained the only as uh Lindsay mentioned the only place we added insulation was in that uh down that front wall and then we created a couple of uh sort of discreet storage areas uh so that we can better segregate kind of the different the different things that that are kept in this in this building so the door the door that that faces the the driveway um leads into uh a discrete room about 10 by 12 um which is where we intend to keep uh Beach items um and that's the only way into that into that little room the the door the existing door on the side leads into the main room um which again is just kind of a mainly an open space it has kind of an l-shape now because of the creation of that other that other room that opens to the driveway um Steve uh you heard me say as well but just to confirm there was always Electric in that that um in that building correct right so there were there were Outlets all around there were lights all all throughout the ceiling um there was uh there were lights on the outside um and there's also an existing subpanel in there so there's you know there's an underground feed from the house that that feeds an existing subpanel uh inside the inside the building and obviously at this point you understand that um because of the removal of that garage door that this um project required approval and that inadvertently was not obtained uh when it was necessary um but you are here tonight requesting that approval um at this time correct correct uh and uh as a uh based on the your personal experience your knowledge of the work as a professional can you confirm that this uh structure is not intended for human occupancy no absolutely not I mean it's um you know it it as as you you mentioned earlier it it lacks um it lacks all of those uh those sort of key elements that would that would make it suitable for for uh habitation or for living accommodations there's no there's no Plumbing of any kind um so there's no access to running water there's no access to drainage um even if you had running water um there's no cooking facilities there's no there's no sleeping facilities um you know it's it's really intended to be used the way it was used before which was you know a a workshop area SL storage area um so uh board members what what you've heard uh from Mr KC tonight um as both a with his personal knowledge as well as a professional is that there was no addition of habitable area in this case there is no intent for human occupancy there is no ability for the space to be occupied um there is no restriction on adding an extra wall of insulation the electricity was already there uh an outlet may have been moved as Mr KC said but that doesn't change the use of this um in fact you know it's quite common garages or out buildings are approved all the time in the city that are both insulated and have electric um so we're asking tonight that you approve our appeal of the zoning Deni denial as to the addition of habitable space in the structure um and obviously Mr kowak is available should the board have any questions did he Testify the temperature control uh I don't did you testify did so I didn't I mean we we we would like to add some climate control in there just because humidity has always been been an issue so you wanted heated and air conditioned uh well yeah I mean we were thinking of doing like a like a a combination unit that would provide that would provide Heating and Cooling if I might add something it says on the fire department recommendations that you're going to put heat in it's a a heat Source that's uh yeah fossil fuel heat Source what what are they talking about there no there's no any anything that the the only access to fuel we have there is electricity so there would be no there's no there's no potential for a fuel burning Appliance there it does say if if a fossil fuel heat service is going to be used right yeah okay okay gotcha yeah no there's there's no there's no uh fossil fuel I would assume then would be fireplace or wood stove or something like that there's no there's no gas line or anything like that feeding the feeding the this is already constructed right yes are there any pictures you want to put in the record sure Mr K has I may have missed it in the package but I couldn't find a picture of the inside of what's built is it is it in there somewhere yeah well uh the zoning it's hard to say it was a I saw that but that's that's what we're I mean that was the zoning officers rep s that but that's the one thing that showed I mean it's your record if you don't want to you have no we can Mr everyone's trying to get a feel for what this inside is and yeah picture would save a thousand words there is the plan that was submitted has a layout a floor plan of the interior which is helpful um but Mr KCK did bring photos tonight there is there is a pict there's two pictures in yeah I I appreciate that I thought that there were that appear what's the what's the floor right now it's concrete is that what it's going to be um most likely it might just we might we might do an epoxy finish on it or something like that um was there an any additional space added to the building going um towards the center of the yard no the the the the outer envelope and and the and the footprint have not changed and and the roof angle and anything didn't change roof did not change in the least okay can you move that microphone a little closer I'm having a hard time hearing thank you so much is this in the HPC area no no it's not okay that's actually um the uh Engineers report identifies it as in the historic district I think it probably was just a carryover but this is not in the historic district excuse me did I understand that there was an area that was enclosed that's 8 by 10 inside the shed area it's about 10 by 12 by 12 doesn't that with walls doesn't that make it a habitable area it well it's it's talk it you know it's it's basically uh so I don't know if it if it's helpful to look at the plan um it's a that that's a discreet space that that opens onto the driveway [Applause] um and I mean if if it's if it's habitable it's it would be very inhospitable you know it's it's it's a rectangular room with no windows and adding in partition walls inside an out building under the city the the strict definitions under the city code partition walls do not create habitable space again there's still there's no intent for human occupancy or ability to occupy there's no running water there's no kitchen um there's I back to the definition what does occupy mean i' like to hear other than a human who's going to occupy it don't know but that's what the definition says intended primarily for human occupancy yeah I know I'm okay I'm asking you to persuade the I well I think I think the ask the question I have a lot of questions too I mean one of the difficulties of this you have to understand is that this is sort of like an interpretation mhm okay it's an appeal but it's an appeal of an interpretation so what we decide here is sort of giving guidance on what we think our ordinance means so if everyone can just build four walls doors and windows with heating and air conditioning and that's okay then how do we know if it's a dance studio how do we you like you you can make anything inside those walls because it's not a garage it's it's not a shed it's not a so we're it's very difficult to well I I I if I might I I think that would be true of almost anything even if it were even if it were a if it were a garage um it's very difficult to to to say well what what goes on inside that but if it were a garage it most likely wouldn't be have finished rooms right and has a garage door I mean I get like I've seen garages that have couches and TVs I mean I understand that right I think it's important garage like the next person could park a car in it like so I I I I think it boils so what I don't like about the word occupancy you know as an architect occupancy is a very broad term that that that covers you know anything that that that people can do not not all of which is necessarily construed as as being habitable so even a even a garage is still occupied by humans right because you're in there when you're when you're parking your car you're so occupancy to me is not the best term I think the spirit of of when we talk about habitable space in general is that it refers to it refers to livability in terms of a place where people where people have sanitary facilities where where they have cooking facilities where where they where they sleep but they but they correlate right the definition of a living accommodation refers to human habitation right so we have to look at the human habitation it says kitchens bathing facilities sleeping quarters toilets and toilet facilities or any other improvements intended to support human habitation right and then we look to the definition of habitable area and again it refers Back To Human occupancy so those two definitions are are related and required to be looked at I think largely together I think it's why they were both in the zoning um violation and I think they were what that why they were in your engineers review memo okay so if someone put mirrors all around these interior walls and operated a dance studio in there how's that what's changed about the building I mean that would be a commercial use that's but suppose it wasn't commercial they had 10 granddaughters and they put their dances in there I mean I don't I'm not seeing how those are connected to what he's proposing okay but but we're not we regulate you uses and structures right and the structure is somewhat defined by the use so if they sell this tomorrow this is set up to be an office a studio it can be anything it's very difficult when applications without structures whether they're garages or otherwise come before this board this board my my experience here as well as the experience of other resolutions that we've looked at don't look at whether the garage has air conditioning and heating you don't look at whether there are partitions in it they can have partitions in a garage people do it all the time so adding a partition doesn't create habitable space here that's not that's not what your definition out my mouth I I think that's I think it's but but putting heat in air conditioning does make it habitable right and you have electric so you can put electric heat in there yeah I mean that's and the fact that you took away the garage door you're now making it not a garage but a whole another living facility there's no garage door I mean you heard from Mr KC why they took out the garage door it wasn't a door that could be replaced because of its side it was in ill repair nobody ever parked cars in there it was not for all intents and purposes a functional garage so there we agree we need to come before this board for relief tonight we're not saying that what he did was in due course or the right thing to do without coming here first he is fully acknowledging that no no wasn't the punishment by board doesn't punish they do zoning I've told that a million times no one's going to do that okay they treat it as if you were just about to do it so they're just trying to understand it okay and whether we like the word habital or like the word occupancy we don't write the things right okay this is the ordinance right so there's a section on living accommodations I agree these are not living accommodations right all right um well I'm not to I don't totally agree with that because as or any other improvements intended to support human habitation but where we're focused where I'm instructing the board to focus is on the concept of intended primarily for human occupancy and then there's certain structures that are permitted even though they'd be occupied by humans garages other out buildings whatever else is out there okay so yeah but no other out building is a different thing there's let's go to this that so we can talk about that for a second the permitted uses the code is open on my phone I apologize to the board I didn't print it before I Craig Craig's Craig's engineering is probably one of the best engineering reports I've ever read so we can go to that and everything is in I didn't know where you were reading you did a great job on it no this is this is well thank you I I've I've been substituting for my partner in other townships and I see the engineering reports they get and they're not this um oh so I should let you do the talk what is what's the question well we're trying to figure out where this fits I mean no no detached garage may contain living accommodations so we got that right so I think the applicant has conceded that it is not a detached garage got it okay so and when I wrote this report that was still in question so but if it's not how can you say it's not a detached garage how can you say it's not a detached garage because there's no garage doorm it's but it but that's only because he took it off if we say you have to put it back on then it becomes a detached garage I question with parking as you know parking calculation because there's nothing calculated for that anyway but regardless it was it was a detached garage when it had when it had the garage door on it it was a detached garage I I think it meets that that standard now taking that away now you're you're bifurcating it and there's no ability to park in that you're using it for storage and and other Workshop space and I I don't think you know it was in question but the more that I hear the applicant describe what the improvements are in there I think it's other out building now and I think what Rich's I'm rich is rich is talking about an interpretation um and it's it's more reading and and Lindsay T touched on the two definitions that I think you guys should be paying attention to and they're on page seven of my nine of my report one is for habitable area and the other is for Liv living accommodations cig can I get can I just Sor I'm going to let you do that that's it I don't want to skip this part okay an out on the out building section Miss Nukem if I called you Lindsay I apologize I'm just used to call you Lindsay but miss Nukem it's my name it's it's section e okay on other out buildings on page six of nine of the very top at the very top of page six and I don't mean to be loyly about it and I'm not I'm not telling anyone how to vote I'm just trying to get a structure for thinking about it how they vote is entirely up to them and I have no I am not absolutely sure about this myself so says no outbuilding may be used for human habitation or living accommodation and with that as a matter of just structure means that they're two different things because when you have or between two words it means that they are two different things okay so when we start mushing about that's why when we start by living accommodations and winter and all that I'm saying that's to me is a relevant because you can't use it for either one of them okay so the fact that never running water and all that that's an issue when you're deciding if it's a living accommodation so but this also can't be used for human habitation so if it fits in this habitable area this habitable concept that's where it sort of is a problem because we have this thing about habitable area we've talked about this before and it's about the ceiling height and finished surfaces um weather resistance I mean the testimony is part of the reason we did this was to keep the weather out right so now we're talking about weather resistance so it starting to take the shape of habitable habitable space they literally did this to make it more habitable I mean that is the testimony so far right it wasn't a comfortable place to be stuff flew in there it was getting Milo we wanted to make more more habitable we want to put air conditioning make it more habitable so that's why it's starting to sound habitable okay so that's they respectfully that's not what the testimony was the testimony wasn't to make it more habitable it was to make it better for storage he is saying that he could not store his things in there safely there were rodent there no I don't want to say rodents but there were Critters I think was your word that got in there that things were getting mildewy whether it was dried food whether it was a rust on a bicycle because the solid air was getting in he he never said that he intended to make it more habitable he said that he wanted to make it a better solution for storage for his family that's what you heard from Mr kowak tonight and I think that that's important and I think when you talk about intended for primarily human occupancy which is those last couple words of that habitable area I think I I understand what you're saying the word or is in between habitable area and living accommodation I agree they aren't necessarily the same and it could be one or the other right but when you look at habitable area and primarily intended for human occupancy I think you are inherently speaking about a living accommodation right if it is intended for human occupancy you're looking at how a human could occupy that space and that's not what Mr cowc testified to he testified that he did it because of all the reasons that I just said and don't me to reiterate for the board so I I think that there is an important distinction there and I think that that's exactly what you heard from Mr cowak tonight and again I I agree with everything that Craig said in term of in terms of this is no longer a detached garage um with the removal of the garage door and I know that we're coming here after the fact and I what Miss Sheen said I understand that if if it was a requirement that the garage door be put back in it the use again May convert but what we're saying is that what we're here on right now because of what we're asking the board for whether it was done or not is an other out building not a detached garage because we don't meet that requirement all fair and persuasive argument but if he put a desk in there and a TV what is it it's still another outbuilding and that's not his intent I mean you're listening to him and saying what his intent is again another what Mr KAC has also um offered to do as a part of uh his testimony and we were going to get into this in the variance relief but I guess that it's it's prudent now is to in some way deed notice or deed restrict the use of that building um if that is helpful to the board he is willing to do that tonight what what would it say it would say that the rear building is not to be used for human occupancy is an occupied as other option that's just putting us right back in the pit I mean so now we have to we have to do it each time what would it say you got to say something like it's only used for Storage storage sure I mean you you and I could figure out what it was supposed to say to convey the meaning of the ordinance that it was used for storage it's not intended we're pass the ordinance now if we're going to deed restrict then he's going to say what his use is and that's what it is we just repeat the the ordinance then we haven't got it is used it is to be used for storage I mean that is what Mr kak is offering to well it's also a workshop I heard I mean I think there might be a work bch in it to put his paint on but I don't think it's a workshop I just I'm trying to maybe I'm I can get a vibe that it's not I I feel some NOS near me so I'm trying to figure out a way to maybe get some of those people to yes for you and if maybe it could be locked in on a what you're really doing here because it is it's a zoning disaster if everybody's just going to start building big squared air conditioned sheetrocked buildings in their backyard how do we it can be anything they can put bars back there I mean you don't have to have running water you they can put a bed in there they can put a bed in there Mr KC is saying that he does not need to climate control it if that is what the concern of the board is that he will not put heating it's not there I mean he he will not put heating and air conditioning in there and keep in mind there was already Electric in there so the comments about it could have electric heat garages have electric I don't think that's what we're talking about agre yeah agreed most garages have garage doors yes I know my garage I have probably 10 bicycles six surf boards three boogie boards cornhole games lawnmowers there's no way that I'm getting that equipment through a single 32inch door it's it's almost impossible to go to that space to me to me this is my opinion taking down a garage I would put it in a bigger garage door you need more area to get all this all of our crap into the garages yeah and taking off that garage door not only changed the I feel change the use of the building but it really limited really limited your storage into that building you have several families I would think you would need a bigger garage um I have a question when it becomes from a garage to an app building isn't there different requirements for setbacks yes because a garage you're allowed to be closer when it becomes an out building all of a sudden you should be moving it off the property line other out buildings are actually more restrictive with regards to setbacks than detached garages are right um I think the side yard setback goes from four to 5 feet so that that's what Lindsay was saying is that they're going to have to follow up with variances depending on you know and I think we've already determined that so what and doesn't also fall in then into um I guess it wouldn't be lock coverage habitable area for the the far re evaluate the the standards I don't think the lot the lot coverage is not changing the footprint has not changed but I have questions with regards to parking now you've taken a detached garage with the residential site Improvement standard say that you count that as a parking space and now and I don't know how many bedrooms are in this dwelling my question it's uh six bedrooms six bedrooms so there are four parking spaces that are required so I don't I haven't done the parking evaluation but you know that that's something that needs to be considered yeah I I have another question um is this a Triplex yes the the house yeah yes does that change anything it becomes a Triplex that it could be sold off into different units what's a Triplex that's not a that's not a zoning term I mean it's a three-story house it's yeah I didn't know I have three different entrances no no no no no it's a single family residence it's a single family house three units right it's one single family house it's a single family house three different entrances into the house that are separate no no no okay that it just no try who used the term Triplex Trix three units yeah I thought IC used I was like no he said yes when she asked it was a Triplex he said yes and he meant it was three stories it is a single family there are not three k there are not three separate entr single single family house single single yes no single family for you uh what's the service in the garage I couldn't find that on what's the I'm sorry what's the what size of the service going into the garage well it's not a separate service but it's uh I believe it's fed by uh it's either a 40 or 60 amp break or something like that off off the main off the main panel house yeah so is it 122 240 400 what is it it well the main the main service in the house is two is a 200 amp service I mean people use their garages for storage and for workshops all the time so I mean that in of itself is not F I don't think that should offend everybody I mean and my father always had like a big heater in his garage because he worked in there and was cold and he like the big blower heater wasn't like so I get that people use their garages for all kinds of stuff when you get out of garage and you make it four walls two doors and windows it just gets more confusing for the board you know it's just more challenging so turns into another out Builder well and I just it doesn't automatically convert to Second principal use on the structure for primary residents right I mean people have sheds on their property there's out buildings that aren't that obviously aren't for human occupancy right ones that aren't heated that are wide open that are like a gazebo there's all kinds of things that can be an out building right that doesn't look like it's designed to be for human occupancy but once you totally close it in with windows and doors and insulate it and put heating and air conditioning in it it sounds like something that humans are intended to occupy not necessarily take a shower but to sleep in to watch TV to have a dance studio all all the things that can be done in a so that's what's causing the the challenge so there's there's plenty of out buildings that look nothing like this that are nothing like this so when he says well I want air conditioning I think that's persuasive to the board that starts to sound like a storage area well and I I think what you heard Mr Kik say is that he's hearing what the board is saying and that he will agree to not install heating and air conditioning in the out building he has also agreed to provide a deed notice or restriction however you want to word it that the out building is to be used solely for storage so I I think that those are two things that should provide Comfort to the board in the concerns about any type of occup occupancy of the rear building now you're out of my area that's that's persuading them that that see I have an issue with the fact oh we took away the garage door because we couldn't we didn't want to replace it to me if it were just replacing the garage door you know I don't think there would be as much of an issue with the fact that you took away the garage door and put a a regular door to me becomes it's a it's a building it's not a garage and it's habitable do you feel that doing a report is going to help work what the board done asking questions I think so should we do Craig's report just to bring on some more clarity I'm sorry I interrupted you I just wanted no I'll I'll highlight I to highlight I think um so uh my my review is dated December 31st 2024 um so this is there's two there's two things going on in this report the there is variance language in there so if they're not successful with the appeal um so if you think that the the zoning officer interpreted the ordinance wrong and and then then that that's how you should address the appeal if you feel that he ruled correctly and interpreted the ordinance correctly then you should um acknowledge that he made the correct decision um that's the appeal um and then there's on the back side of this depending on how you review you review that appeal and decide on that appeal then V variances could be required and I'll go through those so this is a project located in the R2 District you've heard testimony from the applicant they've essentially converted a detached garage into an other out building which is uh defined section and we have code requirements for that um with regards to the completeness review um with regards to and I'm GNA I'm going to touch I'm just going to go through the review as it is but it's I'm kind of mixing and matching as I go through the review um as far as the completeness review with regards to the appeal I did believe they gave you enough information to review and determine um and make a decision uh so therefore I recommended deeming that portion of it complete with regards to the C variances and D variances um they've asked for waivers from items 24 1922 2833 um because of the nature of this because there was no changes proposed and impact any of those I did support those waivers and did recommend Deming it complete um now uh Miss Nukem uh mentioned that a d variance could be required they didn't not notice that I think it would be make sense not to address the variances tonight and do deal with them all together does that make sense if there's a Dev variance required there devarian required right so so tonight I think it might be prudent just to address the the appeal I think sorry I think that it depends how the appeal goes okay right I'll leave that to you that's fine so if we if it is decided tonight that we do require a d variance I understand we will need to come back before the okay so okay did did support the completeness um the once again this is an R2 District um I question the use with regards to the detached garage or excess other outbuilding if that has habitable space in it it changes that and therefore the use could be non-conforming and therefore need a d variance I I highlight that and illustrate that on page three of of my report um and then I deal with the outbuilding requirements itself and there is an error in there because I under the dwelling accessory uses depending on how you I I think we've already acknowledged that it is an other out building and kind of pivoting as we go um we have determined it is another outbuilding um there is a rear yard setback because we've changed the use um and it's existing non-conforming and there would be a side yard setback requirement um I indicate four other out buildings are required to have a 5- foot setback from all required y uh yards so that would that four number would change to five and where that is existing non-conforming at 0.8 ft okay so with regards to the appeal um the zoning officer who is here tonight you're going to hear from him I think um he indicated um the notice of violation was issued excuse me the notice of violation was issued in cited non-compliance with um section 5258 which is the Conformity of regulations 5255 a2c which is residential accessory uses and that could be the use variance that's required um from section 52555 A3 for detached garages and I think the applicant has conceded that that is it's no longer attached garage and is indeed the following section 52555 A for other outbuildings and then finally from section 5278 from uh getting a building permit or the requirements of the building permit so um we've talked about and on the section three on page five and N I offer I offer the code requirements these various sections I think the important ones are 5255 R2 is is a low medium density residential district under accessory uses or permitted residential accessory uses but they're subject to section 52555 and that contains the requirements for accessory uses for detached garages other out buildings and that's what we're talking about so I'm going to skip over the dwelling accessory uses and go right to other out buildings and if you take a look at that section and Rich already highlighted on the top of page six and9 subsection e says no outbuildings may be used for human habitation or living accommodations I think that is the most important part of that section um and then I'm going to roll into the definitions on page four I mean on on section four page seven of nine so habitable area this is the important definition I believe so a habitable area has to be by definition an interior finished room enclosed by a floor ceiling and permanent weather resistant walls which has a minimum floor to ceiling height of 6.5 ft which is intended primarily for human occupancy so do we have an interior finish room yes yes it it has sheetrock right it's enclosed it's enclosed by a floor ceiling and permanent weather resistant walls I think it meets all of that criteria it has a minimum floor to ceiling height of at least 6 and 1 12 ft meets that criteria now the what you need to interpret is which is intended primarily for human occupancy I think that's that's the Nexus of your your determination of that now I'm going to move on to section five the denial of the zoning application sites that a variance required for the change of use it appears the zoning officer ruled that a detached garage was converted to other outbuilding the following definitions are appropriate for review so we have the definition of a detached garage I think it's converted it's now another out building now other out buildings are not not defined term a defined term in the code definitions so um they're generally used for structures that do not meet the strict definitions of detached garages um and it's more of an all-encompassing if it's not a detached garage it's kind of another out building okay the other pertinent definition is for liviing accommodations because if you remember if going back to that subsection e it said can't be used for human H habitation or living accommodations so we have a definition for living accommodations and that says kitchens bathing facilities sleeping quarters toilets and toilet facilities or and this is the important part or any other improvements intended to support human habitation so I think that's another portion of that definition that you should be considering with regards to um whether the zoning officer made the correct determination or not okay so that's that's there's my comments for the appeal and then should variances be required and once again I this is these are the ones that were listed and these are the ones that stood out at the time of review we've now heard more information with regards to this application so we have we would have a variance for the residential accessory use um strike number two because it's no longer a detached garage and we're dealing with the section on other out buildings which is number three and then for rear and side yard setbacks we now have a change of use with non-conforming rear and yard side yard setback so we would need relief from those sections and then under the general review comments um I've asked the applicant to address uh revise the zoning table um we we have now we now have some information with regards to um request for information under number two um the applicant has indicated there are six bedrooms that would require a total of four parking spaces um and they would have to be demonstrated that they can be provided on the lot or you would need a parking varing um and then the rest of these three through nine are my standard conditions that I usually fix to any board applica Bo application that is granted favorable approval um with the exception of seven um they've indicated is not in the HPC so I don't think HPC approval would be required um so that is a summary of my report and I'm happy to answer any questions the board has great question for you under uh uh 52555 section 4 which I think you outlined on page five at the bottom okay the applications or the request before it doesn't meet those standards is the other out building if you were to build it if you were to take this and and build a new other out building it does not it no it would not this this this conversion of this structure is a structure that does not meet the requirements of other out building with regards to setbacks and possibly however the human habitation or living accommodations depending on how you interpret the definition and the height is different for other out buildings the height I don't think we have a height issue on this one maximum height of 10et 10t 10 it depending on the slant of the roof though there's no there's no um height dimension on this plan so I'm going to leave that I I just I'm going to leave that open an open just interested clarification that under that under section four since we've now agree that this is another out building think we've all agreed so if if then you're correct that before a detached garage would have a maximum height of 18 ft right other out buildings have a maximum height of 10t right so that's in play so I guess where I'm going with this is thatp being another out catch around the application or the request in front of doesn't follow the conditions of that section of 525 no and I think that the applicant has indicated that that should they need to come back they would have to address that variance I just want to make yeah I I agree you're right there are several variances that if this is categorized as an other out building in agreement that there is no intent for human occupancy very relief is required um I I don't think variance relief for height is required because it's 10 ft plus five based on slope of the roof but no I don't think you get that support it's only that that is only for single family dwellings okay well so we maybe it would need a hype variance but the point is we acknowledge that we would need variance relief and that will be a subsequent whether it was tonight or another night application but in terms of the appeal and what's before the board at this exact moment is whether or not this structure it really boils down to is intended for human occupancy um and that's what's here right now the other issues of variance relief are a subsequent issue well I I would disagree with you that I think you're before forc to to challenge the zoning officer position and and if we've all agreed that it's another out building then that section of the 525 code is in play and and you don't you don't meet all the requirements under section 4 and that's why we would require variance relief from those standards you have to come back as right this is yes this is a process so I think what we're doing tonight is taking care of the first item which is the appeal so you guys are going to vote on the appeal and that's going to tell the applicant which way they need to approach the of this if if there is a rest of this right yes I agree with that but in deciding whether or not this is it I think we've all acknowledged this is no longer a detached garage right so it has to be some kind of structure it's an accessory structure and the catchall in Cap May city code for accessory structures that aren't detached garages are other outbuildings and so that's what we're here for an interpretation on I understand and agree that we do not meet the bulk standards of other outbuilding to the extent we are that we need to come back separately for that relief I I agree with you and and what was the zoning officer decision based on I don't want to speak for Bruce tell us but yeah that the the appeal the his decision is as summarized on page the top of page five of n of my report and sled section 5258 5255 a2c 52555 A4 and 5278 and he did and that notice of violation is in is attached to my application I hope you have it it it was submitted with the application yes I do have a question about the parking spaces I know you would need to see that but do you have four parking spaces on the lot for sure I mean we can we we can easily get two cars in front of in front of the the structure and then we've got a long driveway that that we can you know it's not uncommon for us to have you know four or five cars stacked in the driveway and again I think that while that's certainly prudent information for the board that kind of comes as part of that later application when we get there if we get there and just as a matter of Correction there is a there is a parking uh calculation indicated on the grid on my plan okay there's no bedroom count okay that that was that was the the question was okay just six actually I I do have a question for the I I would like to hear from the construction offer because I have a question for him are you calling him up as opening to the public or just calling him up calling him up thank you part as part of the thank you you swear affirm the testimony you give is the truth old truth nothing but the truth supp God I do the thing that I'm struggling with is we can't be the first ones to think of this and you know this human occupancy question um I don't understand occupancy to mean sleeping accommodations people occupy rooms for all different kinds of reasons okay and the construction code talks about this um and there's actually a definition and I I'm always confused by the whenever attorneys dive into the uniform construction code we get a little lost in the sauce this is the 2021 IB International building code New Jersey Edition I don't know if that's an a good thing or a bad thing I know there's multiple codes but I think that's the one they use yeah that's actually the construction Department not zoning okay but nevertheless they do have have a definition of occupiable space mhm and it's a room or enclosed space designed for human occupancy in which individuals congregate for amusement educational or similar purposes or in which occupants are engaged at Labor and which is equipped with means of egress and light and ventilation facilities meeting the requirements of this code I know if that's helpful or not but what do you look to to determine or what did you look to to determine this is an area intended for human occupancy I look at it so generally on um other out buildings detach structures detach structures I do not allow sheetrock uh it's bare stud if it's if it's detached because the part where any other elements that lend to human habitation that's the way I view it that's my interpretation so um this particular one actually came about because a complaint came into to the building department and the inspector went out and found it and then I was called over so um there's been a lot of work done in here I mean listening it it kind of was like this is was all here we just kind of freshened it up I don't believe that's the case um walls were built on the interior that turned us into three rooms the the front room with the single door going into it I believe that's absolutely storage um there's no windows it's one door in it's a 10x 12 size room uh dark if you don't turn the light on so I believe that will be storage the other two rooms to me they look like they're they're they're Prime um theh habitable space I know the the pictures in my thing are small I do have a couple bigger ones you could use as exhibits if you want to see what it really looks like yes but um the main room is is sizable and then off to the side is a smaller one where the refrigerator is there's lots of electric that was installed and in the smaller room where the refrigerator is the Electric's all up at counter height as though maybe cabinets will go in maybe a work workbench will go I don't know but um if you want to get a look can you show the council first see if there's any objection and then you can do it to us that's inside no are they just a larger pict pictures that were part of your there are two of them okay two two of the four is this what it looks like now that's what it looks like now that's so there's there's no flooring in it because the job was supposed with to stop work with her so who knows what would have been there I I I believe maybe it'll be you know epoxy could be I'm going to Mark through Z1 and Z2 but um no I took these they look almost exactly yeah it's it's a big issue with um these accessory structures and the habital space and and I can't obviously like part of as the zoning officer I have to inspect every property that sells and I mean it's ridiculous the amount of space that's converted into living space that then they I end up making them have to tear out um but uh so so I denied this because when I went there and saw the first thing I do I go back to the office I pull the block and lot file on the property and look into the history of it and what's there was any of this permit it did they get permits for any of the stuff was it allowed and any all I could find in the block and lot file were the original permits and plans for the for the additional in the garage or so it in in the file it's one big room one big garage um now it's three um so so right now technically it's still a detached garage unless they get a variance for it to be another out building it's still a detached garage um so part of being a detach garage one of the requirements is you have to be able to park at least one car in it okay can't do that here so um the variance so the the the the denial I gave is once he once they got caught um he I believe he submitted um applications to the the construction department for the work that was done um and part of it was he had to apply to zoning too for the change of use which I obviously denied because the change of use to go from the garage to the other out building requires variances so that's that's pretty much what happened did I understand you to say that you saw um permits for an addition to the garage um I'm I'm not sure on that now I I kind of think it was originally one size and they added out the side of it but it's been been months but that was all permanent that was allowed okay yeah if if that was the case but but the but the plans show it as one large garage not divide it up like it is so at the very least there were never any permits pulled for the additional electrical work on the interior walls which is now all covered up can't be inspected if the applicant were to put the garage door back take down some of the interior walls everything would be fine yeah if it goes back to way it was yeah right I mean you you always have the option to go back to what it was and but he could still fix up walls and clean it up he want to inside put insallation in well um the the thing is I generally don't approve sheetrocking detached garages okay he says it was there if he can prove that it was there okay if he has pictures old pictures of it my my thinking is it would not be habitable really habitable space if there's a garage there's a car you know right that kind of so generally what I've been doing is if it's an attached garage they can sheetrock it it's attached to the house okay because um but when they're detached too many of them um are are being converted so I don't I I I require it be bare stud okay but aside from your general practices what we're deciding tonight is strictly WEA when you denied this when you did not approve this change of use whether you were where's your where's your thing just um just the err have that here it is I underlined I underlined it um it was whether there is an error in any order requirement decision or refusal made by the building inspector any other administrative official so we're deciding whether you made an an error that we're being asked to decide so and your decision was that this requires variance as habitable space and as and other out building I don't think they deny that though so they're not claiming you made an error on that decision the error that they're claiming is that you believe that this require is habitable space and therefore is not permitted use yep okay yes and that's what the board's deciding I think we all agree that on that right how they vote is up to them sure okay anything else from me okay so a couple comments I guess or points that I I think are important um to reiterate on is first that three of these four walls were previously insulated so that's not new the garage door removal is new and I understand that and I understand the point that you're making if you put a garage door back and a car in there and you could fit a car in there whatever size that car may be you that perhaps this becomes a detached garage again I I understand the point is mute I I understand the yeah I understand the point that you were making so I but I think it's important to keep in mind that adding this insulation it it was already there so in if insulation is the magic thing that happens that converts to human occupancy it was already there and if the position is human occupancy means that an area is insulated or there is a partition wall which is what I'm hearing every detached garage and other outbuilding in the city of Kate May can only have studs they cannot be insulated otherwise they are fit for human occupancy right that that's what the decision that we are appealing is because I don't believe that there is a basis in the city code on which that is where human occupancy turns I don't that's not his ruling I don't I don't believe that that's because the part of the definition of habitable area the first part of it says an interior finished room and I believe it's the zoning officer's interpretation is when you put sheetrock on it it becomes an interior finished room so it's part of that definition right that's what I that's my impression and he's here I mean we can ask him but I think that's what I was just trying to reiterate right if you meet the other the 6 and 1/2 foot ceilings the floor and that the walls are insulated you have now created space you insulated or sheetrock to me that's two things sorry she sheetrock sor I'm not I want to make that clear yes yes she rocked and and if I might the the prior condition met that definition already no because you had a garage door that wasn't insulated and sheetrocked the room was the whole building wasn't enclosed that's a change well it it was it was enclosed as far I mean a door isn't is a form of enclosure I mean we don't we don't we don't consider a a door not to be part of the enclosure of the building the the the walls the doors the windows all contribute to the envelope of the building the roof but I you know I I hear the lawyer saying it was already insulated but I haven't heard the owner say that it was insulated and sheetrocked beforehand oh I apologize I thought Mr I'm saying I'm just saying you know just for yeah sure technicality you know Bruce is saying he's not really sure if was already done before or not and that's you know you're you're making a statement but he he's under oath for that statement you know Steve there was insulation absolutely and the the same insulation is still there and the drywall was correct well yes I thought he told us that he'd replace some of that because of the mold and everything else the sheetrock was replaced the dra the insulation remained so say that again the the sheetrock was replaced but the insulation Remains the picture looks like that's brand new sheetrock the sheetrock is the sheetrock is no correct so again I I mean we've made it apparent right our our position is that this addition of a wall um that is insulated uh with sheetrock uh does not change the use of the building to be intended primar here read is so I don't mess up intended primarily for human occupancy that is that is our position and and I guess what we are appealing is the decision that because this is has a six- foot ceiling that it is enclosed by a floor and a ceiling that because this wall is now insulated that it has become intended primarily for human occupancy which again would mean that detached garages and other out buildings in the city if they have six foot ceilings and have a six and a half and have a floor and a ceiling with Reser resistant walls have to be at their studs okay I I'm not I I don't I don't know about that because as everyone's pointed out when there's a garage door that part of it is not does not have it's not airtight I mean that's why I didn't say garage test I'm just trying to I am trying to um when the testimony is that the garage door made the place drafty and leaves got in and all that okay that sounds garish okay and that is an area that's not temperature controlled and all of that when you seal the whole thing in and drywall and insulated it insulate it the in the building inspector views that different than just a garage it starts to look like a place that you we agree that it's not a garage it is not why are you talking about garages at all you're trying to put it you're trying to you're trying to change what we're voting on by saying well now you're saying that every garage that has drywall is intended for human occupancy we're saying no when it's a garage we don't have to get into whether there's human occup respectfully Rich that's not what I just said I said that in the city that's okay I said that in the city if there are other out buildings as accessory structures that meet the requirements of habitable area and are insulated with Dy wall they are now fit for human primarily intended for human occupancy that is what I said I didn't say that for garages because we're not a garage then I think the answer to that is yes I mean that's that's it yes that's the zoning officer's decision I understand that and that's what we're if people put up buildings that are insulated and look like they're going to be temperature controlled and have windows and doors and they put them in their backyard then yes I think our building inspector is going to say hey that looks like that's intended for human occupancy that's an out building I don't know what that thing is it's not a garage it's not a gazebo it's not a storage shed it looks like a place that humans are going to be comfortable in and do things in and have a dance studio or an office or something and we regulate that differently than we do garages and things that don't look like that now people may want one of those and someone may come in and say I'm an artist I want an art studio I want to put this back here can I do that and if everybody's persuaded that the benefits outweigh the detriments and they vote on it then fine but as a first line of defense our building inspector is going to say that's not okay sure as listen it that is what we are appealing right you might be saying you you don't agree with me which is what I'm hearing but I don't that is what we are appealing that decision we don't agree with it and this board is going to vote however they're going to vote on it and I understand that but our first step in this process with Mr Cow X building is an appeal of that decision of the zoning officer if Mr KC decides to come back because your def decision is that it is habitable space and ask for some type of relief like you just talked about then that is the next step in his process but the first step was an appeal of the zoning officer's decision this is almost an interpretation no there's a section there's a section in their ordinance I'm learning things as I go here um definition 28-9 it's our flood stuff okay and in that it has this paragraph habitable building and it says means a building that is intended for regular human occupation and to Residents examples of a habitable building include a single family home duplex multi- residence building a commercial building such as a retail store restaurant office building or gymnasium an accessory structure that is regularly occupied such as a garage barn or Workshop mobile and manufactured homes trailers intended for human residents So it's talking about places where humans do things as a habitable building so I think when you put whatever habitable thing says right 6'5 drywall and it's a place where humans are going to be doing stuff I think our ordinance is viewing that as habitable area space habitable building being occupied by humans um so I just I don't think I mean the board's gonna vote I think it's up to the board to decide that it is it is and it's okay right it's up to me to try to point out parts of the ordinance that are relevant I mean you're welcome to do that as well I mean you may have state cases or statutes but I'm just trying to do my job and read through this ordinance and I'm searching the word human in our ordinance and I just that's what I'm finding you know okay um were there separate rooms the were three separate rooms in there was it two two separate rooms no separate rooms so originally it was it was just one big space we it's I wouldn't characterize it as three rooms we've carved out one room which left an L-shaped larger space so I would characterize it as two rooms currently so you're trying to have one space that you're going to put a door on and lock stuff in or something like that is that the right so there's there's one as I mentioned earlier there's one uh smaller room that opens directly onto the driveway with its own door and then the door on the side leads into the L-shaped space was there a the garage door was in the front was there also another door in the front or is that door is always on the side the door was always on the side the the originally the door in the front spanned almost the full width of the of the structure thank you public comment t so are there any more questions from the board another relevant section is our Flor area ratio definition and that is the sum of the area of all floors of the hab habitable areas of buildings or structures open pen not including attics basements porches decks or other areas not designed or intended for human habitation so attics basement porches decks just gonna open it right if I open it up to the public there's here open it up to the public within 200 fet seeing none open to the public Beyond 200 ft and seeing none closed to the public oh what I would let Miss bua make her you have something else you would like to say sure yeah I'll be brief I mean we we have probably ad nauseum discussed um Prim what primarily intended for human occupancy means uh again it's our position that the the addition of one drywalled insulated wall and the removal of a garage door does not create a space that's intended primarily for human occupancy um we don't believe that that's consistent with the definitions that are in the code uh or with again the intent uh here you've heard from Mr KC that he is not only willing to deed restrict the space for storage but is also willing to um not climate control the space um all of which I think make clear the intent uh to not be primarily for human occupation uh again we understand that there are other conditions that would need to be met in terms of variance relief if this was if you agree with us we would be need we would need to variance relief um but uh that you know that that's our position tonight and we you know we appreciate your time I know it's taken a bit well I will tell you that I I I've given miss duuk a bit of a hard time only because I'm trying to think think through this myself but it's not as clear as I am making it sound um now it uses the term human habitation and living accommodation then it also habitable area says human occupancy not human habitation human occupancy um so it is you know it is challenging we've done our best to try to um Define things that are hard to Define but what you're being asked to do tonight is to decide if your building inspector committed an error and he concluded that this particular structure as viewed by him as described by the witnesses is something that is um Falls within the definition of habitable area no whether it falls under uh the definition of the falls intersection a no out building may be used for human habitation or living accommodation your board Engineers directed you to some helpful indicators in the ordinance including the definition of habitable area to help you understand what human habitation means and that describes it as an interior finished room enclosed by a floor ceiling and permanent weather resistant walls which has a minimum floor to ceiling height of 6.5 ft which is intended primarily for human occupancy the applicant has argued that this you should also look to this part of living accommodations which talks about kitchen bathing facilities sleeping quarters toilets and toilet facilities or any other improvements intended to support human habitation and and since human habitation um seems to imply the things that are living accommodations and the term in section e is human habitation the applicant wants you to look at it and say hey that's intended for things that look like sleeping quarters second primary uses and M nuk has articulated that she doesn't believe that to be the case and there's you know support for that position in the ordinance um as I just I think I just read it that's the support that it does the human habitation words come from the section on living accommodations um and those start to sound like places that you sleep and bathe and have kitchens um so you need to to weigh all that information I also read you a couple other sections that I might not be able to F oh I took a picture of it I did I read you some other sections that might be of interest um if I can find my photos I'll tell you um a section of our ordinance relating to flood that talks about um garages barns or workshops being areas that are intended for human occupation not habitation occupation but it may be helpful to you understand so you need to decide if your if your zoning officer made an error in his determination I hope that's helpful summary Mr nuk if I mated anything I tried to give a relatively balanced summary I just have so we're no longer a garage that can house a car everyone agrees we're not in garage no matter what you have to come back for some variance releas because the building is sitting in an area that doesn't conform if it's not a garage yes we do well yes but they have noticed for that variance tonight so so if you conclude that this is an appropriate outbuilding then you can vote on whether or not they're entitled to a variance for the location of the out building but if you find that it's an out building that is intended for human habitation or living accommodation then they need a different kind of variance they need a use variance for that so the first thing you're voting on is whether you're building inspector made an error when he concluded that this was not an appropriate out building because this out building he believes is intended actually what it says is uh no outbuilding may be used for human habitation and he believes this is an outbuilding that appears to him to be intended to be used for human habitation I'll make that motion and vote on it is that second okay Mr Walsh motioned Mr ledwin second just to clarify the motion uh we need to say this in right particular is your motion we always do it as a motion like an affirmative kind of thing so your motion is to affirm the the the decision of the zoning official yes correct and then so if you vote Yes you're affirming it if you vote no you're rejecting it okay and and just so you you know rejecting it means that you are saying that it um it is not intended for habitable space and they'll move on to the next vote okay so but yes is the support the building inspector no is to reverse him Miss Lindsay Miss Nukem is that does that vote sound the vote we're supposed to be doing okay that's the what we're supposed to be doing so go ahead okay Mr Walsh motion Mr Lewin second Mr Lewin support the uh zoning officer yes Mrs Notch yes Miss Shan yes I support the zoning officer I believe it's human habitation um it may be used for there's rooms that separate and it's insulated so human habitation is possible in that room please Mr Walsh yes Mr zexer yes Mr V know yes Mrs wner yes can can can a couple can you just give machine gave some reasons can you just articulate some reasons why you voted the way you voted Sam that and I I did because I uh as well see it as habitable space once you put um drywall in a and take the garage door off and also I appreciate that you know the gesture of no longer you know put putting any climate control in however you know down the road if the house was ever sold uh it's not you know stopping someone else from putting climate control heating or air conditioning into the structure and you have mine that they separated rooms that I put there I said she and these just my notes right I'm typing quick I said she believes it is for human habitation rooms are separated ins okay thank you that he sees his h space because there is drywall and even though and then I stopped but I'm about to say even though they talked about not having heating this time it looks like it's can be heated and I affirm what Sam said is that the possibility down the road even if not at the moment okay and I appreciate those comments I just want to reiterate though that what you're voting on is not anything that they offer to do you're voting on whether your building inspector AED if they want to alter what they're doing and submit new plans to have them considered by the building inspector no that's I'm just I'm saying that that was correct right I understand okay okay Rich all right good luck we do have a sheet of bills here that we need a motion um approve second Mr Lewin motions Mrs not seconds Mr Lewin yes Mrs Notch miss shayen Mr Walsh yes Mr Zer yes Mr venudo yes Mrs Werner yes thank you and if there's no other business um we need a motion to adjourn a motion motion is she in motions all in favor yes thank you everyone good night turn off yours wow was a journey that was a journey