The meeting is now called to order. Roll call. Mr. Shapiro. >> All board members are present. >> Thank you. Um, we are going to stand for the pledge of of allegiance. But after the pledge of allegiance, can we please remain standing for a moment of silence to honor the memory of Xander Whit Broad
Rouse, who passed away over fall break. Xander was a junior at Carmel High School, a valued member of the Ice Hounds, and a previous member of the football and track and field teams. His bright and uplifting spirit will be greatly missed. Please stand for the pledge of allegiance.
>> I alian to the flag of the United States of America to the republic for it stands one nationice for all Next is our CCS mission statement and that is that Carmel Clay Schools will
provide opportunities for all students to realize their potential in an everchanging world. Typically up next we have public comment but this evening we do not have anyone signed up for public comment. So, we will move on to our consent
agenda. Um, and tonight the consent items include the personnel report, hiring of Steve Starks as custodian, claims, and payroll. And as a reminder, these consent items are items are part of our business items that we group together. They're routine items grouped
together so that we can kind of look at them efficiently and consider them and approve them in a single motion. Do I have a motion to approve all items on the consent agenda? >> Madame President, I move to approve
consent items 3.1 through 3.5, approval of personnel report, the hiring suggestion, claims, and payroll. >> Thank you. Do I have a second? >> Second. >> Thank you. Any discussion? Right. Seeing none, we will take a vote.
All those in favor signify by saying I. >> I. >> I. Motion carries at this time. Whoops. Um, at this time I'm going to request a motion to suspend our regular board meeting and open. We have four different
public hearings this evening. Um so the these public hearings allow public input and so we will have another opportunity for public comment um on the following. the 2026 budgets, the 2026 capital projects plan, the 2026 bus replacement
plan, and number four, the second preliminary determination public hearing in conjunction with consideration of entering into one or more leases with the building corporation, which would permit the building corporation to issue its first mortgage bonds.
May I have a motion right now to suspend the regular board meeting and open the public hearings? >> Madame President, I move to suspend the current board meeting uh the regular board meeting uh for purposes of opening the public hearings as you stated.
>> Thank you. May I have a second? >> Second. >> Thank you. All in favor of pausing our um meeting at this point and we're suspending it to move on to the public hearings. All in favor? >> I
>> I. >> And as a reminder, per board policy 0167.3 when a public hearing is required by federal or state statute, the same rules followed during a public comment. So the when we would typically have our public
comment previously also apply to these with the following exceptions. Advanced registration is not required and speakers must speak on the topic of the public hearing. So I'm going to kind of just read the rules. If there's anybody here who does
want to do the comment during the public hearings, I'm going to read um the general rules for public comment. Participants must be recognized by the presiding officer and must preface their comments by an announcement of their name. Participants, as with our other public comment, will have three minutes
to speak. Comments may not reference specific corporation employees, patrons, or students. Comments comment shall be directed to the board, and no person may address or question individual board members. The school board will not act on or respond to questions or comments
made during the public hearing, but will take them under advisement. So, we'll begin the public hearings with the 2026 budgets, the 2026 capital projects plan, and the 2026 bus replacement plan. On September 8th, Mr.
Mcichael presented the proposed 2026 budgets, 2026 capital projects plan, and the 2026 bus replacement plan. The board discussed the proposals and authorize the administration to advertise for public hearings. Mr. Mcichael, would you like
to make any comments regarding these three items, which are the 2026 budgets, capital improve capital projects plan, and bus replacement plan um before we invite members of the public to come in?
All right. Thank you. So, at this time, I will open the hearing first on the 2026 budgets and offer members of the public an opportunity to make comments. If you would choose to make a comment, go ahead and step forward and you will
have three minutes. Unfortunately, no three minutes and then please uh make sure you state your name before beginning. So, thanks for the opportunity to speak and for all the hard work that you're doing for the uh budget and all of this
work on capital um projects. Um my name is Lesie Webb. Um I um moved to Carmel 25 years ago and our uh children had a good education and so we're grateful for the teachers and the administrators and
the hard work that the school board does. Um, so my comments tonight I um are about the broad um not just one specific um public hearing uh but it it's in
regard to um safeguarding t taxpayer dollars and protecting the future for students as it relates to energy. Um so um I would like to urge the school district to incorporate solar energy as
well as energy efficiency and also incorporate environmentally friendly um infrastructure into both the budget and the facilities projects uh because both can financially benefit from these clean energy and
environmentally friendly choices. for example, adding solar to the Smoky Row renovation, adding solar to the new roof section at Carmel High School, uh, and other things. Um,
but CCS has the largest, uh, is is the largest consumer of energy in Caramel, which is no surprise because you have a dozen big buildings. Um, but it also means that CCS has the largest carbon footprint in Caramel and
this is a threat to our students future. So I know CCS has a long history of leveraging energy efficiency to manage utility costs and has saved $23 million since 1995. And that's great, but it's not enough.
Um, we need to do more to protect taxpayer dollars and the future for our kids and grandkids. Uh, as you know, Caramel Utilities, the Caramel Library, the Hamilton County Jail, as well as schools in Fisers,
Noblesville, and Sheridan have invested in solar. In fact, in the country, one in nine students attend a solar powered school. So, my first question is why hasn't Carmel justice. So, um
I think that you need to include this in your planning because um the everchanging world that you talk about at the beginning of every meeting means hotter summers, hotter springs, and hotter falls, which means more
energy costs for the school district. and energy costs are expected to rise because of the demand for data centers. So solar is is a solution.
Um and I know sorry I'm I'm almost done. Um many schools have used guaranteed energy savings contracts to finance solar. So, there are ways to do this and there's a
30% incentive that schools can take advantage of to make it a wise investment for taxpayers. Thanks. >> Thank you. >> And again, right now we have the public comment for the 2026 budgets. I will see
I will wait and see if anyone else would like to speak. Seeing no one else, I will close the hearing on the 2026 budgets and open the hearing regarding the 2026 capital projects plan and again offer members of the public an opportunity to make
comments. Okay, seeing no comments, I will close the hearing on the 2026 capital projects plan and open the hearing regarding the 2026 bus replacement plan and again offer members of the public an
opportunity to make comments. Hearing none, I will close this hearing on the 2026 bus replacement plan and then we'll open the second preliminary determination public hearing in conjunction with consideration of entering into one or more leases with a
building corporation which would permit the building corporation to issue its first mortgage bonds. Mr. Mcichael, would you like to make any comments regarding this? >> I I would I have uh some narrative to read. I'll abbreviate it, but I believe
you noted tonight is is the second hearing with regard to this. Um this is for what we've referred to as our 2026 facility projects and and the larger ones include Smoky Row Elementary full renovation, Carmel Middle School,
Midcycle. We have several projects at Caramel High School. Um and then some final work at Cherry Tree Elementary School guarding the playgrounds and believe that's hit as far as the outline of the projects.
And so the maximum principle for these bonds is $66,260. The maximum term of the bonds is 20 years and the lease is 22 years and the estimated interest rate is 5%. The maximum allowable interest rate will be
5.5%. And um note that the the net increase to the debt service fund rate as a result of this these bonds is expected to be zero and that is in part because our
management of our finances are such that we also have um existing obligations that are maturing. So we have bonds going off coming on and that's that's been a practice we've had for a number of years. And so um finally the estimated debt service levy and the tax
rates over the next 10 years accounting for the proposed bonds and any changes from existing obligations maturing or ending during that time and based upon the pay 2026 net assessed value with no change thereafter and those rates are
listed on the screen. And with that concludes my comments and now would be the time to offer opportunity public So again, I will offer uh members of the public an opportunity to make comments regarding these plans um that Mr.
Mcichel just commented on. >> Since there are no comments, uh may I have a motion to close the public hearings at this time? >> I move to close the public hearing. >> May I have a second? Thank you, Greg. All in favor?
>> I >> I. We will now resume our regular school board meeting. And we are moving on to our action items. Our first action item is item 5.1, which is adoption of the preliminary determination reimbursement resolution.
Mr. Mcichel. Well, this is just a followup of of the hearings that you just had and so we would recommend your approval of these resolutions which will complete that process. Then we'll move to the next step. >> Thank you. May I have a motion to
approve action item 5.1, the adoption of the preliminary determination reimbursement resolution. Madame President, I move to adopt action item 5.1, the adopt to adopt the preliminary determination reimbursement resolutions. Thank you. May I have a
second? Thank you. Any discussion? Okay. So then our motion is um approving item 5.1, the adoption of the preliminary determination reimbursement resolution. Uh if in favor signify by saying I. >> I. I.
>> I. Motion carries. Our next action item is action item 5.2, the resolution and form of lease for the 2026 facility project. Mr. Mcichel, >> thank you. Um, this resolution is
regarding the proposed lease and also approving the issuance of first mortgage bonds by the Caramel Clay School Building Corporation and various matters. >> Thank you. May I have a motion to approve? Um, again, this is action item 5.2, the resolution and form of lease
for the 2026 facility project. >> I move to approve the resolution and form of lease for the 2026 facility project. >> Thank you. May I have a second? >> Second. >> Thank you. Any discussion? Okay. So, we're going to take a vote.
Again, this is um approving item 5.2, to the resolution in form of lease for the 2026 facility project. All in favor signify by saying I. >> I. >> I. Motion carries. >> Our next action item is 5.3 which is
approval of the 2025 2026 contract between the school board of trustees of Carmel Clay Schools and the Carmel Teachers Association. Mr. Mcichael. >> Thank you. On September the 29th, members of the Carmel Teachers Association approved the proposed tenative agreement for 2526.
Then on October the 3, Board of School Trustees held a public meeting and discussed the terms of that tenative agreement. Uh the major changes to the agreement is it provides for a 2% increase to salary to the salary schedule plus increment. It also
provides a new added literacy endorsement amount of $200 to the base salary per recent Indiana code. Then there's various language items which you have in front of you that I won't detail. And with that, we would recommend your approval.
>> Thank you. May I have a motion to approve action item 5.3. This is the 2025 2026 contract between the school board of school trustees of Carmel Clay Schools and the Carmel Teachers Association.
I move to approve the 2025 2026 contract between the board of school trustees and the caramel teachers association. >> Thank you. May I have a second? >> Second. >> Thank you. Any discussion? Right. Seeing none, um we will now take
a vote. And again, what we are voting on is approving item 5.3. That is the 2025 2026 contract between the board of school trustees and the Carmel Teachers Association. If in favor, signify by saying I. >> I. >> I. >> Motion carries.
>> I just wanted to add a couple words and uh say that Mr. Mark Ween, our CTA president, was unable to be here this evening. However, he wanted to send his gratitude to our school board uh to the administration and uh also to our teachers and our caramel teachers
association for the approval of tonight's contract. Uh we have a wonderful working relationship with our teachers. We appreciate everything they do in the classroom each and every day. And I am very pleased that we had such a positive uh work session to come to this
agreement tonight. And uh we look forward to a great uh relationship moving on in the future with our Carmel Teachers Association. Thank you. >> Thank you. Next up, we have our workshop topic. And it looks like we get to
relocate ourselves. Yeah. Um so our topic is operations and finance. Mr. Mcichael. We're ready for you. Anytime anyone talks, make sure you have the microphone on so that this is being live stream and recorded. Um, so just press
the button down um that is automatically on right there, but if you have one of the handheld or the portable mics in front of you, just make sure it's green while you talk and uh we'll turn it over to Mr. McMichel. >> Well, thank you. U have looked forward to this opportunity to give this
presentation. Uh over the last several months there have been, you know, questions about how we do things with facilities and construction and all that and how they're financed. And so we thought we'd just have an entire workshop that would respond to those questions and also provide some
information maybe that you didn't ask for, but but uh but we want you to hear it. >> Or at least I want you to hear it. >> We're going to hear it anyway. >> You're going to hear it anyway. So, um, first I want to introduce the folks that are here tonight to assist me. Uh, first
we have Belvia Gray and Belia is a partner with Baker Tilly. Then we have Lindsay Simonetto who's a director of Baker Tilly. Brad Skilman who's CEO of the Skilman Corporation. Victor Landfair who's executive vice president Skilman
Corporation. So, I'll start and just give some overview and then most of the presentation will move that way. Sure. You're pleased about that and so much. Well, so as you know, you've heard this, but the public hasn't necessarily, but
but as you know, we have 19 major buildings. Uh 15 of which are schools. We have about three and a half million square feet of space. Our oldest facility is a port the east side portion or portions of the east side of Carmel High School. the auditorium and so forth
which was uh constructed in 1958. Our newest facility is an addition of that building which is the polytech edition you all which is just just recently finished. So the mission of our facilities department is to provide highquality facilities to enhance and
support the education program. As I've said before only reason for this for the building in the first place is to do that and so if we fail that the rest of it are met. uh we we always have a focus on transparency and we want to be responsible stewards of the public
funds. Um our guiding principles that we go by is to again support the academic program. We absolutely have to have safety in the safe facilities. We want very much transparency. We want to maintain facilities at a highest level. We want to maximize energy efficiency
and we you know there were comments earlier and we want to be good stewards of the taxpayers funds. So, how do we know if we're being successful? Well, we believe that with a recent 94% of community approval rating for the school district, but that is one example. Uh,
we do deliver what's promised to the community and we delivered on time and within budget. And we also do maximize sustainability and green building practices. Uh, and I want to give some examples of that because as noted, Carmel does not have solar caramel
schools and many of our neighbors do, but we're all different as you know, um, in a variety of ways in terms of amount of acreage and all a variety of things. But what we do have is 11 of our schools are Energy Star
schools. That's a national recognition. Um, we have the most Energy Star schools in in in Hamilton County, including all those that have solar. Um, we began we were the second to begin an energy management program in 1995.
All of our neighbors have that now. And then fairly recently in 2023, we received a national green ribbon award for for a district. not not a 2014 Pharma High School received revenue award but in 2023 the school district
did and so we had um people attend at Washington DC for that recognition um and and so um those are some examples of of both sustainability as well as energy conservation we do a lot of energy
conservation we do it as a practice as because we do work regularly it's always incorporated in what we do all the time as opposed to and I'm not well as opposed to a separate energy saving contract or project. And so we we
basically incorporated and so our facilities would compare do compare very well with any any school facilities you want to look at or compare to in the state of Indiana including our nation and and they're very good by the way. Some I don't mean to suggest by my
comments that they aren't and And so with that, this is our team. Um, at the center of it, we have myself representing the school district, Toby, Toby Steel, our director of facilities, Tabitha Hughes, our capital projects
manager. Then we have Skilman as our construction manager as you know, Fanning and Howie is our architect. Uh, Baker and Daniels is our bond council, our legal counsel. And then we have local council of course with church hill and and then we also have our municipal
advisors financial advisor Baker Chilly and so that's that's the team and uh we work uh you'll hear more about this but um but it's a consistent team that has estab developed a very good relationship that we we all work on the same page
understand what the goals are and and it seems to work out very well. So with that, I'm going to turn it over to Belia uh and she'll start the presentation regarding finances. >> Hi, thanks for the introduction, Roger. Good evening, everyone. I'm pleasure to
be here. Um like Roger said, I'm Belvia Gray. I lead our public finance team for Banker Tilly and I'm also resident and a high schooler. So double dip in and all the ways that I serve the community. Um but tonight I'm going to share a little
bit our role as municipal adviser. Turn it over to Lindsay who works really closely with Roger and his team. And um you know the slide really kind of captures um the the overall view of what we do, but we've been serving as
municipal advisor for 30 years. Um and in this role, we serve as a fiduciary to the school corporation. And that means that we are legally and ethically bound to act in your best interest. We don't offer advice. It's really a standard
that we're held accountable to. We're regulated by the SEC and we also have oversight by the MSRB. Because of that, we really view ourselves as an extension of your business team. We sit on the same side of the table for you and so we provide really specialized advice to Roger and
his team when they need it. We know how much caramel schools really values transparency and clear communication and this really aligns very well with our goal. Our job is to make sure that you have the information that you need that it is clearly presented, thoroughly researched all
while keeping your goals in mind and to provide a little bit more context specifically on our rules of duty of care and duty of loyalty. I'll give you a few examples. So for duty of care, that means that we are providing you with datadriven recommendations that are
tailored to the district's needs. We're breaking down complex financial information that's easy to understand. And we're ensuring that your business office, the board, and the community have tools to make informed decisions.
Duty of loyalty means that we're remaining independent from outside influence. So our advice is unbiased and focus solely on what's in your best interest. So overall, I mean the message here is that we are bound legally bound to put your district or put your
interests first. So that's an overview of our rule role as municipal adviser and Lindsay is going to talk a little bit more about how we serve the district and how we have. >> Good evening. Thanks for having us. So, Baker Tilly serves school districts across the state and really beyond and
schools of varying sizes um varying needs. And what we have on this slide is just different ways that we do support schools um all over the the state and beyond. and and the ones in bold, which if you're a little bit hard to see,
maybe easier to see on the paper in front of you, the bolded ones are the ones that we the services that we provide specifically to caramel schools. And as you know, schools have a lot of
capital buildings and many of those capital needs are not able to be funded through the normal operating budget. bonds just like
preliminary detents do all over the country to fund those capital projects. So the services that we have bolded here, a lot of them do relate to the planning of bonds.
One of the things that really stands out that Carmel does a really nice job of is taking a proactive approach to facility planning. Um really having that long-term vision and sense of what the future needs are when making decisions
about immediate projects. And this really helps us as a financial advisor to be able to model out different bond illustrations planning for again those immediate needs with a long-term high as well and being able to
manage the tax rate and keep that consistent and steady and ultimately just be able to issue the bond more efficiently. There's also consideration of those projects as those get prioritized which
projects will be funded for bonds versus which projects through the operating budget while still maintaining the cash balance in line with policies that are in place there.
From a bond rating agency standpoint, Carmel has the highest of all the school in the state, one of four schools that have a bond rating. That's the highest that has
um those those credit rating agencies really value this long-term planning. They see that as a positive because even though we know that these needs are going to change over time, circumstances change,
the plans are going to evolve over time, but having the framework in place is so an example we have here in this chart of how we've modeled
current and future bond issues. This is a chart that shows all the annual payments in gray. Those are the bonds that are currently outstanding and all of those existing bonds mature within 10 years.
And then in yellow, that's an illustration of the 2026 projects tonight modeled that. And then there's future projects and bond issues that we've modeled which are certainly
subject to change. Again, um an an everchanging fluid document, but this does show ultimately that those future projects are layered in. There's a that long-term vision of being able to
issue bonds without making tax rate go up and go sit tax. Um and again having a plan even if it is changing it's a lot easier to change
start from scratch. And with us having a long history with the district, it's really been helpful to know tax rate, know what goals are as far as repayment term, all of those things
process issuing the bonds a lot more efficient both a lot less. So the way that Carmel's been able to borrow historically been able to have these bonds be repaid
over a term of about 10 years or less in Indiana. These property tax bonds can be repaid for a term up to 20 years. So that's one area that Col's been fortunate to be able to issue bonds with
a shorter repayment tax also has a really strong area to manage keep that tax rate not just steady but actually keep it lower.
So both total tax rate and also the taxific Lindsay Roger is um >> okay it was like really loud and then I couldn't hear it at all. Apologies. Is it okay to ask questions during >> if you like? >> Yeah. Very informal.
>> So great. So appreciate this. make sure I'm understanding and make sure we're not giving um an incorrect impression. This chart >> uh presumes there's no a new debt issued after 2035. Is that right?
>> Right. >> So those last 10 years it looks like it was you're you're taking the 10ear plan and doing it out over a year. So basically it's looking at projects over the next 10 years and modeling
those out. >> So to your point we're showing a 20ear period something is 10 years from now 10ear >> but to your point that's why the tax rate shows that it's going down. It's not that we believe it's going to go
down because there will be, you know, five years from now there'll be >> pro some form of the last five years of this and a new five years, right? Which will so there will there'll continue to be work. We try to show that in in a kind of 10 years or so at a time as
opposed to 40 years, >> right? is going out longer than that. I think really >> Yeah, it gets gets pretty if >> I didn't want to give the public the impression that our tax rate is going down like that because we're going to have to issue new whenever that might be. >> Yes.
>> Um the 10ear plan I I don't think I've ever seen it. Where is that? >> We have we have really I'll say two plans. We have a formal plan which we are going to bring to you that you've not seen but um we have a 35 or 40 pages
of of charts and graphs and all of that that's um kind of a long range kind of a detailed plan and then then daytoday we work off of a working document that's like two pages and and it simply is um we're
going to with on that document you would see these 26 six projects. For example, just like Smoky Road and just ding ding ding. And then 29, you're going to see, as we've mentioned before, you're going to see Mohawk Trails and Woodbrook. And
um and then after that, I don't remember exactly, but there will be projects coming up at Carmel High School. Um, from memory, there will be ones out there that are scheduled like Prairie Trace because on really in both, but on this two-page,
you know, summary, if you over outline, if you will, um, it starts with those assumptions of major renovation in about 35 years, midcycle renovation 35 37, midcycle, you know, se 151 17. And so that's the
outline of that. that becomes the outline for the two page. And so when you get out here 29, you'll see Smoky Row, I'm sorry, Mohawk Trails and and Woodbrook, and there may be one or other two things on it, but by the time we get to 29, I guarantee you there will be
four or five other things that they won't be $50 million, but there'll be, you know, a compressor or a boiler or something. And so as you get like any plan as you get to that we know that when we get to that detail or that closeness then we're going to get you
know serious about what do we need next year or the year or you know for 29. And so that gets more detail really starting now and it'll get more detail and finally finished as we finally get to 29. And so that's kind of the practice
that we have. The purpose of that is um my approach has always been when I present 60some million dollars worth of bonds, I don't just say here's what the bonds are. My my intent is to say and here's here's here's next and it doesn't raise the tax rate. Well, but then I say
well and not only that um you can see that we considered there isn't there is a tomorrow and in this case there is 10 years. And so the big stuff, if you will, it's represented. Um, and so which is a way of saying we're not just
looking today. We're looking always looking out always and and we there have been examples where somebody may come like myself may come and say, well, here's a here's a we want you to prove this bond issue and there's no tax rate. You didn't ask me what about next year or the year after that. And then when
the tax rate spikes, it's a problem. And so, so, so that's part of that transparency, too, by the way. But, so that's how we have it. So, in summary, we have we have like a two-page plan that gives you kind of the big stuff.
And then we have based on just years. You know, nothing's that simple. Um, but but I've said before that facilities that you can anticipate, you know, they have a useful life, but it can vary. Depends on how well you like your car. Some cars last 10 12 years and some of them last 25 because you take care of
them. So all that goes into it. Um so it's much more complex than what I'm describing. But but that's that's kind of where we start. >> Thank you. So when we are working with the district to bring these bonds to market, one of
the things that see a lot of interest from dealers on these bonds across the nation. So we get a lot of strong interest, a lot of biders bidding on the bond and even some really that we
don't often see on other day-to-day bond issues. We see some new names show up. Um That also drives up that competition ultimately drives down. I appreciate the opportunity here. Brad Skilman. Um, I want to take a
little bit of time. Lindsay talked about services with Baker Tilly. I'm not going to talk in this this next probably 10 minutes about services that our company does for car. I think like to spend some time really
look at it as kind of a subject matter expert on delivery methods that are available for public institutions like yourself in the state of Indiana. Um on the screen here we have all of the different types of ways that you have
available to you to deliver district. um want to talk about the three in the circle and spend some time discussing those uh specifically because that's that's what we see the most and also because
some of those are are not necessarily u long established delivery methods recognized in the state of Indiana. It doesn't mean that they're not used in other states or haven't been used in other states over a period of time, but
because the way that the state of Indiana has certain laws, um, not all delivery methods across all states are equal. And so I want to talk about some of those nuances and probably start from from left to right. Uh,
construction management as as agency uh, has been around for over 50 years. We delivering those services for over 50 years. CMC or construction manager at risk or construction manager as a contractor have been available in other states for
public entities for years. We've been doing that type of delivery method in states like Ohio and Michigan since the early 90s in the state of Indiana. Uh that method became available by law in 2015. As a matter of fact, the first
school district in the state of Indiana, Southmont, that used the CMS constructor delivery method, Victor and I did June of 205. And also we'll discuss a little bit about design build, which has been a
nuanced approach since since we've been building buildings uh but available to Indiana in a form since 2005. It's important to keep in mind when we talk about delivery methods, there is something that supersedes all of the
language and all of the I'm going to say in some cases propaganda of talking about delivery methods and that is public bid laws. So the public bid laws come first and foremost and then consideration about the nuances of construction construction delivery. Um,
in the state of Indiana, in order for us to have what we call a responsive and responsible bid, those contractors that wish to engage in a relationship and someone like Carmel Clay Schools need to be IDOA certified. So that's a requirement for for anyone seeking to do
business with you. That certification means that they have to have financial wherewithal to have 100% performance and payment bond. Also, disclosure of of past litigation with public clients and Indiana code requires us to do this when
someone like ourselves or whomever you work with or if you take bids directly to come and say this is in fact a responsive and responsible bid and we can enter into a contractual relationship. You do because you do do so much work and all clients, all owners
have this, all public owners. You do have a right to use past contractor performance for awarding contracts. So I don't care what your financial wherewithal is. I don't care what your past disclosure is. If you've not been a good partner in the past, you as a client have the right to say no, you are
not a responsible A lot of delivery methods talk about about schedule. So what I'll call sometimes speed to market. There's nuances to consider for all owners when you look about construction schedule where your priorities lie on
schedule. But I will offer when you're dealing with public entities, especially Carmel, there are some considerations. Number one, Lindsay's got to get the money for me first. Roger and Lindsay have to free up the funs. We have transparent process that you go through. This isn't like a private development
where I can go and get a loan and then boom, I'm off and running. We always are looking at aligning the funding mechanism with your priorities of needs and how do we maximize the funding to those needs. Um, city of Carmel, they have requirements. They're an excellent
partner, but that is a six-month process we need to take into account before we can start construction. We've gotten smarter over the years and we can do things like early bid packages to fasttrack projects. All delivery methods have that available to you. But we have
to take in mind when we look at schedule, we have a partner in the in the form of the city that we also need to. And lastly, and and this is this is most important regardless of any delivery method. We are building in a unique environment
students and staff. And so we do not uh let construction schedule trump the day. We have to build a schedule around an educational environment and all delivery methods have to take that into consideration. Victor, who's worked much more closely with you than I have,
thought we just put some of those examples of of why working in that environment is soant. is critical and making sure job is safe and safe for students is not always the fastest way to build construction. State the
obvious, but for example, also working around existing occupancies. Cheritary is a good example. That's a $20 million project. We're taking 26 months. There's 10 separate phases. Each of those phases moves students from one area to another.
the occupy. It's really 10 little projects stacked together. So that's driving that schedule, not the speed in which we can do the construction. Um you look at the uh the stadium project and the niatorum. Um temporary facilities at
the stadium project to maintain um you know seating dur um we're not going to close down football season in Caramel. At least that was the preference stated to me. So we we worked around that. So again, that project could have most likely started at a different time,
finished a different time, might be done more quickly because uh but needed to be accommodate the public of course and other things that are very important and critical and do do end up tending to drive issues about sound and noise and dust and of course it is not unusual for
us to stop work during ilearning testing is another example where again education trumps construction. Just wanted to give you a highlight. Some of those things that really drive schedule and drive our projects are really around making sure we're good education.
Again, not not having a preference for for any of these construction delivery methods because we we do do all of these. Um it it's important to look at delivery methods um on a standpoint of an axis of of how
much control do you as an owner have and how much transparency is involved uh through that process because all owners are different and you might look at this and say well it's very obvious I want high transparency
and I want I want high involvement not all owners are like that. And so it's it's important to say the the the delivery method is for the goals of the owner and and not all owners are equal. And so if you if you start with
uh a method that you're familiar with, construction management as owner, as far as a contract structure, you as the owner sit at top and you have two advocates that you work with. one is your your architectural firm that you
contract directly with and your construction manager as an agent which means by contract they they sit on your side of the table. Uh the the line bar there under the full transparency that's listed that because we have public bid
openings. I think some of you have sat in some of those and it is a very detailed prescribed process. Uh, and what you hear is is what you see on on bid day. Um, want to talk a little bit because because some people when talking
about delivery methods talk about about risk and risk shift, but I think it's important to keep in mind what IDOA and what the state has done on your behalf to set guidelines to manage those risks.
So, I mentioned the IDOA certification that all contractors have to have. I think it's important because when you think about failures of a construction project, you either have failure of funding, meaning the the owner can't come up with a cash mid- project. Well,
you have a double A rating. Your your cash is pretty good. Um, you have failure of performance from the actual people doing the work in the field, failure of contractors or going out of business, failure from your professionals, your design professional, your
construction management uh uh professional. And so what are some risk management tools that are in place to protect the community and protect your assets? Number one, we talked about performance and payment bonds. So if any contractor fails, you have an insurance
policy for someone else to come in and take over at no cost to the owner. Professional liability from from construction manager. I don't know about others, but we're not perfect. We do make mistakes and we're required by by law to carry coverage for that. And your
professional liability and errors and emissions from your design team. Um, as the graph indicated, this is the most transparent process because you were involved with all stages of phasing, financing, design, construction,
sequencing. Um, the the the good thing about the CM delivery method is it does provide flexibility. While we're over here doing one large project, we can take uh a same group of team members and do two or three small other projects.
there's some economies of scale. Um the the the process focuses upfront on getting as much good information as possible to get the most competitive bids possible to maximize
dollars that go into in your case educational program. It does not come without its downside. If you don't want to see how the sausage is made, this is not a good delivery method for you. If you don't have a staff that has the wherewithal to manage a design team, a
construction team, and and get into all the details and take the time to do this, then you should probably look at a different delivery method. One of those delivery methods that if you go on the scale then to owner involvement and transparency
is is CMC or CMS is constructor. I have to say 50% of the work that we do is under this delivery method. When this delivery method became available or was being discussed as being available in the state of Indiana, I personally worked with Indiana University, Purdue
University, a handful of architects for about three years to get this um get this passed. Um, not so much because it was it was better than any other delivery method, but we had certain clients specifically like IU, Ball
State, and Purdue that have different needs than you do and said, "We want that tool in our toolbox." And so we set out to craft legislation to make that happen. Uh, in this case, you have the architect, same relationship as under CM
agency. Your CM or your CMC is a little different. uh becomes a little trickier because now we're serving two masters by contract. We have to serve the contractors where we hold the contracts, but we're also working very hard to make
you happy because that's how we, you know, do our business. Um, in the case of CNC in the state of Indiana, it is a transparent public bid process, very similar to agency. But once those bids are taken,
your CMC holds all of those contracts and you no longer see those agreements. Those agreements are now between me and my contractors. So, anything that happens behind that scene after bid day, you no longer see.
some of the nuances and and why these are good for some clients. Uh somebody mentioned the Carmel Library earlier tonight. Uh Victor and I worked on that project. Uh that was a CMC project and the reason it was a a good fit for them
is they only do a project maybe once every 20 25 years. They don't have a Roger across the street and they said we need somebody to do a bigger lift and we need somebody to carry some of that water for us. um
risk management tools or CMC are almost identical to CMA. But one one quirky thing that happened in the state of Indiana under state law, not only do your contractors bidding the work need to
carry performance and payment bond, but I as your CM am now your contractor. I'm your your your single point of contact. I too have to carry that uh uh performance and payment lo. So you're paying for that bonding twice. And so
that can go from anywhere between one and 2% of construction cost. And that's just the way the law reads. There's there's no way around. Some other nuances. Uh I as your CM can competitively bid up to 30% of your work.
Some can argue there's pros and cons there. If all of a sudden I get to bid 30% of your work, my motivation to go out and get a lot of competition may or may not dwindle. Um, professional design services. I mentioned your your architect is still
on your side of the table, but we do create some conflict of interests. And since I am now your contractor, any change orders that happen or are a revenue source for me. Those are those are now my change orders. Uh so just just something to decide or think about.
But again uh Karma Library we did most of the healthc care work we do which is which is private takes on this model and a lot of municipal uh municipalities that we work with that are uh short of resources will outsource some of these
responsibilities under this delivery method to to a CNC. And then lastly, this is this one probably I hear more accurate information from an industry standard but inaccurate information as
far as a delivery method in the public sector. And that's because of the prescriptive method that the state of Indiana requires uh you an owner to deliver a design build project. If you look at that graph
you before you can engage in I'm going to go back one thing I'm sorry the last bullet point I missed something because we're talking about procurement CM agencies of professional services just like your architect you can hire
that that team and go to work to do multiple concurrent projects under the CMC procurement process in the state of Indiana. Every time you want to have a CMC contract, you have to go out for request for proposal and procurement
process that's dictated by the state. So every time you want to go do a project, RFP selection, possibly interview, then select. So it it does add time and there
is there is a process. And so that's why when you have somebody like Carmel Library or you're doing new building and that's all you're going to do for the next 10 years, it makes sense. One RFP, you move. If you're doing multiple concurrent projects, every time you do
one of those projects, RFP, proposal, collection, selection gets even more complicated when you go design build because before you can issue any kind of RFP, you need to hire a technical criteria developer.
somebody that says, "Here is the here is a conceptual idea or design of what we're trying to do." Hire a technical review committee that has to have an engineer or an architect or a licensed contractor. And that's a paid position or a paid
process. You have to pay for both of those groups of professionals before you can issue an RFP, request for proposal, request for qualification to even start the process of hiring.
At that point in time, after the selection process, unless you bring on an owner's technical rep to help you navigate this process, you're on your own. The design builder holds all the contracts with all the designers. They hold all the contracts
with all of the contractors. And there is no public bidding process like you have under CM agency or CMC. For example, Victor and I did what at the time was the largest design build uh
school project in the state when he and I did Fisers and HSC high schools and those were 46 a piece. We gave them one piece of paper when we when we submitted our our guaranteed maximum price.
There was no bidding. We got numbers. It was all done behind the scenes and we came to the school board and we had one of these people. So that transparency shifts. >> Mr. Skilman, question please. Um well,
first I'll preface it because this is terribly terribly helpful and appreciate it very much. So and please know that I know and appreciate the quality of work that your firm does. Um, and it's apparent throughout our community. Um,
my question, my first one is really related to to the bidding and what's transparent and what's not. So, you've got on this slide zero transparency because what you're saying is the individual trade
companies that come together for a certain project in this example for design build do not individually competitively bid. Is that what you're saying? Correct. >> So when you came and you said, "Okay, when we presented HSC with an
all-encompassing oneprice project," you're not saying, are you, that you were the only company that came with a onepric bid. I mean, a design build is a oneprice all-encompassing. Correct. >> That's that's there was a competitive process where
four firms were looked at and price was only part One of several criteria. >> One of several criteria. That is correct. >> Okay. So, you did have competition for your all-in price among other criteria
in order to be have been awarded that project. Correct. >> Correct. But the keep in mind that was also off of 35% complete drawings. So, I had 65% >> incomplete. >> Incomplete. >> Question mark.
>> But you were held to that price. >> Yes. But I control the design. >> Correct. >> And I >> which which as you're talking about how much owner being us or and our team has over it. We can make changes. We can do
things using another uh format that you can't do in design build. Correct. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> Correct. >> And that's generally not what we've used in caramel. >> That that is correct. So for what we've used in caramel is essentially CMA.
>> CM agency that's correct. >> So in CM agency do you have competition for construction and architectural services or are those professional services selected by the district in
advance and the competition comes in with those subcontract level trades people. That is correct. >> And so it's your presentation that that is transparent, but you yourselves don't actually have
any competition for the services you provide in the overall umbrella structure because that is how and this is all how the law is already set out. I'm not suggesting you're doing anything wrong. I'm just saying in the pros and cons,
>> you're selected and that decision is already made. Correct. We are professional services. So you have the ability to, for lack of a better term, shop our services whenever you like, just like
you do any other professional services, whether they're legal services, accounting services, architectural services, financial services. So, um, while we are hired upfront as an owner advocate, you do have the right to, um,
for lack of a better term, shop those professional services whenever you deem necessary, >> right? And so, I guess, Roger, this is the question that I when I get asked, you know, we get approached all the time when we go to conferences. >> You know, everybody says they can do a good or better job as you can do, Mr.
Gilman and they can do it better and cheaper and you know they'll everything's wonderful right and so when they say hey we just want an opportunity to compete and show you that we can do that when do we shop for those services Roger
>> there's not a set schedule u before we built the two elementary schools um for the first time in years um we invited uh proposals from both CMS and architects and as you may know we changed archct We did not change CN. Um we rarely do
it. Um which doesn't mean we're not aware of what the market is. Uh but a to put it in the fees for the CM and the architect larger projects you're you're looking at at around 12%. So not insignificant, but it's 12%. It's not
50%. Um and I'll say even the state of Indiana has seen fit to not require bidding for services. You don't want to bid your brain surgeon. You may not want to bid >> your lawyer. You don't want to bid your lawyer. >> Well, no. Ex ex Well, and you're we're
talking a lot about the two major, you know, the CM and the and the architect, but you're right. I don't want to bid the lawyer, Barnes and Thornberg in this case for bond counsel. Uh I've used pretty much every major bond council over my career, and there's not very many in Indiana. They're all excellent.
Um financial advisor, same thing. But my point is is that uh the fact that we don't go out for price. Um we go out for we in services we're looking for the best at a reasonable price and everybody
knows what everybody charges and and so um there's not a meaningful difference um from one major architectural firm to another major architecture. So um so we have to be very I believe we have we
have to be very careful about the cost of services in relationship to the to the services provided and the quality of those services. Now these folks are not the only uh quality CM and they're not and spanning how he's not the only
quality architect but they are two that we've worked with for years and if I selected another one we did select another one of the cso we elected to go back to Fanning and how and there's a variety of reasons most of which were not I'm not being critical of cso but
those two elementary schools were very difficult uh to get them built uh because this is a relationship business and and it takes years to establish a relationship. The name of the company is the same, but the players change it
naturally and so do we. But um so it's a relationship business and the better that relationship is with quality people, the better outcome we're going to have. So we've had very excellent outcomes. So we've not routinely changed. Uh we did change on the
elementary schools. I won't go into the reasons why, but there was motivation to consider alternatives and so forth. When we did that, um, as I said, we changed one, did not change the other. So, it's a very important point, but I can't emphasize enough that, um, we do not
shop services, and you guys don't shop services, by the way, as far as I know, for for corporation council. Um, and so we've had uh David Day for 30 years and different firms that he worked for, but the same lawyer. And so, so I use that
as an example. And we've had different board members, but not different attorney. And and I would say the same thing about about Church and and David, you know, fine firm, fine lawyers. There are other fine firms and other fine lawyers. and and uh and we could change
and I believe we could assemble a different team and and I believe we could ultimately uh be as successful and continue to be successful as we have been. Um I think it would take a while. I think and so the question is is what's
the motivation to change? And I'll tell you what, answer my own question. One of the things that happens that we're very um um and that happened with the two elementary schools, everybody got too comfortable. I got too comfortable. My
staff got too comfortable in my opinion. Architects got too comfortable. And so it's when you have that first job if you're these guys and this is your first job and it's huge. I mean, you can imagine you're going to put your best foot forward. You're going to be right
on top of your game. And I'd say the same thing about any relationship whether it's two people or two companies whatever but then over time you get to know each other so well that there's real pluses of that but the downside is is everybody gets too comfort and so we
try really hard we're very conscious of that first of all and try very hard to avoid that and I think they they might say and I don't want to ask them because you know they couldn't hardly disagree with me I suppose but but I believe that they understand and that if I felt that
they were slipping or that there was a problem, they would we would we would change and we would certainly consider change. And I don't put and I do not threaten people. Um things that I say threaten people. Um but they do. But there's a difference. I mean I a threat
in my mind can be an idol. >> You sound like me, Roger. >> You know what I'm saying? But but if I'm telling you something, you better believe it. And so, and I think they believe it and and I think they continue to to stay at the top of their game. Um, the other thing that happens is if you're them, imagine how important this
account is to you. And so, it would be just as important as some of the people that solicit you. Um, just, you know, and they would like they would like for, you know, for that to be them. And, you know, we all get that. They're trying to make a living and so forth. Um, but they aren't all good, by
the way. Uh there's a very select few um over long term and skillman for example I've been been around long enough to where when CMS came into schools some of them were former painters and all kinds of stuff and they and another company
are were only there were two that actually kind of survived the process for years and there's you know currently there's certainly more than two but that's my point and some they all have all different models by the way but so anyhow that's my comment, but I I want
to um elaborate on that because the idea of competition and bidding in this scenario is a real issue and and and clearly we've not focused on who's the cheapest.
>> I I I think I'll probably pivot and come back to delivery methods if anybody has any question. But that's that's a good pivot to now switch my hat and and talk about how important uh relationship consistency and institutional knowledge
is to speed to market. Um because I think what we're doing and how we work as a team, this is the best speed tomarket transparency utilization of funds that that you could you could use. And this was my idea to
have this this this evening uh when when Roger and I were first talking about spending time tonight because this mission stage mission statement and these guiding principles are something that we as your construction professional,
your design professional and your financial professionals keep in mind every time we sit down every year to develop um this this master plan, this district-wide plan. If it doesn't fall into one of these, we're doing something wrong. So, these this is this is Roger's
challenge. And you have high expectations as a community. You have high standards and you have high standards of your professionals. So, what that means is is this relationship is an investment where we're not one and done. And in order for us to be ready
for next year, as Roger said, not only this year, five years, 10 years, because I was kind of nudging Victor when I looked at Lindsay's slide. Those 49 pages of projects all have detailed backup to what we as your design and
construction professionals are doing every year and I get to tease Roger a little bit. Roger changes his mind every once in a while and so we have to jump through hoops to make sure all of that is right. And so there's an advantage to that. And I'm going to have Victor talk
a lot about some detailed numbers, but you know, I said you don't if you don't want to see how the sausage is made, this isn't a good process. Uh, we're going to do a little bit of little bit of hot dog right here because there's there's a lot of work that goes into every year when we do projects. So, I'm
going to have Victor explain a little bit what this is and why it's important. >> Thank you, Brad. I wanted to try and in a very short period of time capture a little bit of this relationship um in some illustrative documents. So the first one
I have on the screen here if you will SNAP is a snapshot of three years Skilman working with Karma Clay Schools. Um, and uh, there's a couple numbers and there's some colors here to
kind of simplify that that process. In terms of numbers, um, uh, during these three years that we were working with you, your building program, construction costs total 170,000 $170 million. Other
words during that time period we you had under contract $170 million of construction which we were your advocate managing for you. Of course that was not all at the same stage of construction and that's what the colors illustrate
that uh green represents ongoing work. Blue represents work that started either prior or during that time and was completed during that time. Yellow represents I'm going to talk a bit about quoted work but smaller quoted
projects and then red represents the time in which it started. So as you can see we were we were multiply we had various projects in various stages of development starting well within this and continuing on beyond this snapshot of time. Um also
want to talk about in terms of speed to market. Um you have been able to leverage your relationships in order to do smaller projects and sort of respond quickly to programmatic needs often at the high school but all across the district. And
that has resulted in a number of quotes. I have a team here a full-time team in Carmel managing your larger projects. you take advantage of that resource and you incorporate smaller projects so often in the summertime, not always. And
um and in essence, they're somewhat freely managed for you because I already have the resources here and we're overseeing them during that. And so that that's about $2 million, but 17 small projects that all impacted education and programs during that time. And so I
could go on, but that that's what I wanted to illustrate is the leveraging uh and our ability to do this and our ability to to move quickly and respond quickly to needs is because we have resources, we have institutional knowledge. We have an architectural and
facilities department that we sort of we're in sync and that's becomes very efficient and Brad's term speed to market able to respond quickly. the the the next uh go back one, Brad.
The next one is on the back page. And I know this is a lot of numbers. I didn't really expect anybody I expect Belvia to check my math because um but >> the point here is that in order to
>> one one of the components of every project is cost and time, right? And so as we're developing cost estimates, we also are developing schedules, right? And so Brad, if you go to the next slide,
we are able to take, not that that's a whole lot easier to read, >> a little better. >> We were able to take our knowledge early on. This is a snapshot of the 2024 bond series and just cherry tree the first
year is is the component up on the slide here. We were able to anticipate the dollars spent in January, February, March each month. Why is that important? Because it's important because Roger Lindsay, they're working together to make sure
you have the money when you need it, when we need it, and also the ability to refinance or excuse me, reinvest that and get dollars uh in in the bank. So, this we could only do this because we're
planning upfront with you. we know your expectations. We understand that it's going to take two years and 10 phases to um remodel cherry tree. So, it's a bit of an illustration of the partnership and how it infects affects your
financial aspect, not just construction. That was too much information for me, but thanks, Victor. I'm going to get back to one of the guiding principles. That's my favorite. Um, one of the guiding principles that's that's on your place, Matt, that's that's near and dear to my heart, our heart as an
organization is supporting academic program and and I think we've talked a little bit about how important the relationship and that that long-term institutional knowledge is on implementing the districtwide, but that
academic program and we started with these buildings support education first and foremost and I I have to say thank you. Uh thank you because we've also had access to your students and we've had a
pretty special opportunity to use your construction job sites as a as a working lab. And so over the past few years, here's just a list of the the interns that we've been able to to put on campus
and and that workforce development through the state is is more and more important. We're very much engaged, very proud of it. Thank you. Please, if anything, if we can keep that relationship with your students, we need them in our industry and they're they're pretty special people. Um, as a matter
of fact, in 2024, Carmel Schools and and the Skilman Corporation won a nominated for a 2024 impact award for workforce development with with Isaac. Um, and and that's pretty special. And so, thank you. Uh
that's that's a a win-win for the for the whole team and and we couldn't do that if we weren't here long term in the district and could develop relationship with your students as well. So thank you of of all of the schools we work with. You have done an excellent job being a
partner with that workforce development. So something we're we're very proud of and I know you are too. So, um, I started by saying I was going to be the if there's any other questions on delivery methods, happy to answer that. But, but I'd be remiss in saying coming
off such a special weekend, thank you for allowing us to be a part of all that. That was very amazing. Thank you. Very much appreciated. >> At this time, we'll close out the presentation. I'd like to make one comment and then then open it up to questions and then how long we're here
depends on the questions you ask. So, but to to kind of close out the the discussion about, you know, the services and so forth, I want to emphasize to you, and you you all know this because if you go to a conference, you know, you've got vendors and people just all
over you, right? I mean, that's business and uh and um um people soon learn your names. They, you know, we spend millions and millions of dollars of the public's money, but it's millions and millions of dollars. um big business. Um most of the
people you're maybe all the people you're hearing from have a self-s serving interest and I don't mean that as a bad thing. They're trying to make a living. Um I don't. And so I would would um encourage you to u seek out because they won't unlike the vendors they won't
seek you out but seek out other people um more in my role perhaps or in you know at a university or someplace where they're not uh trying to get business but they that that they have expertise and in this matter then I think you'll
get a better perspective. Um, I I I'm always concerned that um because I I've been around here for a while and so I I know how this works and so you all of you are seen as like a new opportunity
and and it's not a bad thing. They're not bad people. It's just but that's just how it works. And and they're they're wanting to sell you something themselves. Um, and there's a huge amount of money and anytime money's involved, it gets really important. So, that's all I would say about that. Now,
we'll open it up. >> I already warned them before I turn around your badge or hide it. >> Do not make them look in the eyes. What I tell you, >> don't go don't >> the vendor booth. Don't even No. Yeah,
you can get the free stuff, but just don't tell them where you Well, just grab it and run. Don't Don't look up. Uh, not a not a question. Um, thank you for the information. It's super helpful. Um, some of this experience as a newer board member is a little bit like
drinking out of a fire hose to some extent. Um, not completely, but a little bit. And so being able to deep dive and get uh more information, especially as we're doing bond issuance and reviewing budget and knowing what is coming down the pike, uh over the next few years, is
super helpful um because of the responsibility that we have to be good stewards of taxpayer dollars uh of my taxpayer dollars as well as the community's taxpayer dollars and ensuring the standard that that we've set here in Carmel because I think that is of critical importance. you know, I
made a decision to live in this community for a very specific reason so that my my child had the chance to have a high quality education and he's had that and we want to maintain that and we know that delicate balance that we need to strike of being responsible stewards
of the resource while maintaining the excellent reputation that we have. And this helps me um better understand how we can sort of ensure that we're lining up all of those pieces um and and juggle all of those balls. So there isn't a
specific question there other than this is this is helpful uh to sort of absorb the information as we continue to go through the process. and you know the the limited opportunities I've had so far to interact with some of the folks on your teams has has been helpful and I I appreciate that opportunity and and
look forward to more of that as we continue to progress. So thanks for taking the time to be with us tonight. >> I echo John's words. Thank you. I really appreciate as we have as a board made it a focus of ours to align our strategic
uh goals with every presentation we have. Having a presentation such as this when the state has made it a priority to have work-based learning showing how our students are have these opportunities
and are going into these types of fields and then showing how it's paired up through our university system is very important and it shows us that we're on the right track. So, thank you for including that. That was very informative and helpful.
I just wanted to make a couple closing comments. I believe Skilman and Fanny Howie also support Carmel Education Foundation which is very close to my heart. So appreciate your financial support as well as your participation in our achieve initiative and which again
is related back to that promoting um different career pathways and work-based learning. So so appreciated. Thank you again for coming and I don't have any other questions. Thank you. >> Yeah, thank you very much. I I think we
all learned a lot today and it's it complex uh infrastructure that we build and maintain and we've been here a number of decades and our child went through the school and it's been great to watch it all grow and to see how this all comes about. So really appreciate
the information. The bad news is I do have questions. The good news is there are really simple questions, quite simple answers. So I'll try to keep it quick. The uh Roger, you'd mentioned I think that the the fees we typically see between the architect and construction
manager combined is about 12%. >> 12 13%. >> 12 13. Is that typical on these projects? >> Yes, that's what I was saying. um professional fees. Um they're going to be in that range. There's not going to be somebody h if they're half the price,
they're probably half as good. Uh so the the top players, it's not a matter of of I likely would not make a decision on who's who's the lowest provided the lowest fee. Um because they'll be close
and by the time you get to that $60 million if it were $50,000 difference, you can see what I'm saying. So, but yes, that's that's going to be about the the fee can range on the size of the project renovation project and have be more have
more fees particularly for the CM um and as opposed if you build a brand new building out there's just more complicated but but that's that's kind of the range. Next question is uh is a sequence question of they have a complex project
let's say a major renovation of the high school. Um what how do you start with do you start with that that we need to do a major renovation of the stadium or whatnot and uh do you have an idea of what it costs
or do you start with the budget like we're able to acquire so much money in bonds so let's find something to do. How would you describe the sequence? I'll take a stab at that. In Carmel, um, use the stadium project as an example, we
start out with, or if it's a school, we call oftentimes we call it educational specs. It's a little misleading on an athletic facility, but but we start with a group of people that are involved. Um, in this case, it would be your athletic people and principal and coaches and so
forth, but people that are, you know, focused on athletics and the needs and so forth. So, we're developing an educational spec which is telling u communicates to the architect. They're like the designer who's listening and saying, "Okay, what do you want?" Because their other client wants
completely different. And this is where we're very I'm very adamant about. We want I want our schools to be I hesitate to use the word customized, but I'm going to use it not because it's high priced, but it's customized to what we
need. Our program, not somebody else's, not a pre pre-designed pick one of these buildings or do it at this price, but we want to we want to uh we start there and the architect. So, it starts there. hear the architects listening. Uh we start
what's called what they develop what's called a schematic design and that's like a bubble diagram or something. It's like start to get a sense of well there's six rooms or two rooms or whatever. Um very preliminary and then Skillman one of their responsibilities
is to start the estimating process. So they at that point they're probably they're estimating on square footage um and and and very broad and so they do have that background expertise. So they have they they they have an idea of what square
footage costs are but there can be it's like building a house you know you have two houses same square footage and one of them costs twice as much as the other and so but they also know um they have they understand you know our standards and so forth which again that comes into
play um when when you are working with an experienced team that's that's a part one of the members and so so you start to develop the preliminary cost and we do that just did it be you know reflected tonight because Smoky Rose is
a little different because we have one copy off of with some cherry tree but like um Caramel Middle School there had to be enough upfront work with these guys to give some it's like chicken or egg, you know, I've got to have some number to
take to the board and so it's, you know, $14 million and so um but usually that usually things haven't been usual for several years now, particularly since co but but because prices changed so much and everything but but usually what happens is that'll tend to be a higher
price if anything more likely to be high than low because if they're going to estimate, which at this point I'll just say is a good guess. um they'd rather it not be low and that but they know from working with me that they don't come and
brag because it came in at 20 10% less because that they missed their estimate. Now would I rather have it missed that way than the other way? Yes, but I don't want missed at all because somebody didn't get something because we thought it was going to cost this much. So, but
that's the process. Then then you get into uh design drawings and more it's more and more detailed to finally get to the end. You have final drawings, final estimates, put it out to bid and these guys are the estimates usually going to be really
just a matter of very small percentage one way or the other because they're not necessarily targeting for the low bid. So, so some places they they actually exclude the low bid and the high bid and then they pick from the middle. But that's the process.
>> Okay, good. Thanks. Um, you know, I uh I'm going to use an analogy when you go out to dinner and and u you know, you get asked if you want an appetizer, you know, drinks and >> and uh you know, salads and blah blah
blah blah and heads on. Then of course at the end there's always ask for the dessert, you know, and the >> you know, you I'm thinking all along, well, this all impacts the tip 20%. and uh that tip gets bigger and how do we how do we manage that? I mean I would
be incentivized I would think >> yeah if you're 12% they know the bigger the project. >> Oh that's a that's a great question. So by by law under CM agency I cannot work on a fee percentage and so we are a fixed fee and so as Victor talked about
when you have and that's why I pulled these up uh because I want to back up sometimes we work very because you you have high expectations as as a community as an owner. Roger has high expectations of us and and so
we often create more work for ourselves in order to our our team wants to please caramel. That's their number one job. And so we often create a lot of work for ourselves and this this diagram reflects it because once Roger has our contract
and once he has a fee for us for a certain amount of time, he has us. And so all of the sudden we're halfway through the natiatorum project and some of the contingencies that we had in there for maybe unforeseen conditions
and some of the other things that were under budget. Now it frees up two other projects that we now have to get in on the same time. And Roger says, "Well, great job, Brad, Victor. You came in under budget. That gives me money to do that project, that project, that
project. use that exact same team that we already have and go do these other projects the same time you're doing this one. And so um we don't get a tip. We work for wages. >> But so so how does that work when you
know you mentioned there's a fee 12 to 13% for the architect and construction manager but it's fixed. I'm not Can you help me understand that? >> I will. Um so first there was a time where where u years and years ago where they did work off of a percentage of construction and both the architect and
the CM and and the implications of that are just what you're thinking and so was the state legislature. That's why they outloaded how long. Now having said that it does you know the people we're working with they're not oblivious. They have they have a they have an idea of what it costs say to build an elementary
school and although they got fooled on on the two that we built. Um, and everybody did, but the point is is so they go, well, you know, and they build a lot of other ones, right? And and and they know they're not all like Carmel, but they adjust and so forth. So they
have an idea and based on that idea, they go and and then they also know particularly Skilman the personnel that it takes to oversee a project. And so time is money. So if it if you have guys on site and it takes six more months to
finish this project and there's allowances for that u but you know cost more money. So they're they're doing all that, but they're and and so um because people that we're talking about, they they know what they're doing and so
they're they're going to be close even though they don't they start from like there is a price and and and for their services, but it's a little bit like a a lawyer. Um they're all they're also building their price based on what they're projecting to be the
time. And so a school that doesn't have, you know, vinyl wall finish um costs less money, but it may still takes it may take as much time to build it. On the other hand, if it has the vinyl and it costs more money, doesn't mean you
you spent it's cost you more money to build it, right? So So the cost is a factor, but but they don't they don't make twice the fee because of twice the cost. It's much more based on I say like square footage and and time and type and
those kind of things which they all know >> and so um they don't stay in business and not be pretty good at and not not charge enough to you know come out more often than not on the right side up but that that is how it works. >> Um I'll kind of combine two into one.
The uh we use the uh CMA approach for >> most of our projects. Is that what we see in similar districts in nearby? And and the kind of a similar question to that is are do our sister districts
typically use the same contractors like Skilman and >> um >> let me speak to >> Yeah, please go ahead. Yeah, >> because I have I'm a bit opinionated on several things here and um and so um as
you as as is clear, Caramel for a long time has used one CM, one architect. We have a neighbor that uses seven CMS, seven and um and I and three or four architects. Now that makes people you're you're
getting, you know, approached by happy. So they they get their piece of the pie. And I know how this works. I mean, I've been doing this for a while and it would be life sometimes would be a lot easier if I'd give you a little business, you little business. Particularly, you live in Caramel, right? Everybody lives in Carmel. Seems like whenever they come to
talk to me, it's like, give me the business because I live here. I go, you know, I'm looking out after all the other taxpayers, not just you. And so, but anyway, so, so there's a, you know, a lot of difference. And so, this isn't a criticism of my
neighbors. I want to keep saying that because it can sound that way. But we do things differently and they do what they do. We do what we do. I'm proud of what we end up with and I'm likely proud of what they end up with different. And so,
but on my part, um, trying to develop seven teams and the relationship that I just described and have that also be efficient and effective is beyond my imagination. And and not saying I
couldn't do it, um, but I'm I'm saying I wouldn't choose to do it. And but there are people that do. And so so there is that even in say similar sized districts. Now most of the districts as you know in Indiana are not caramel you
know the sixth largest out of close to 400. So most of them you know if I were in Lwood I always pick on Elwood a little bit. If I were in Lwood and hadn't built a building maybe ever and I'm the superintendent and I've got, you know, a couple people to help me and that administrative assistant, this
design build or one of these other methods like a pretty good idea because they'll end up with a really nice school most likely. Um, and and so for the most part, you know, we end up with things that I could, you know, if I
showed you another brand new building, you'd like it too. it look be clean nice and pretty and all that kind of stuff. Um, but it may not have all the that customization that we know we have and and I see and other people that are here,
you know, that are involved see those things. But my point is there's there's there's a place for all of this. Um, and there's certainly room for different perspectives. Um, and so I'm try never to pretty much never would say I'm right
and they're wrong. I'm just saying this is how I do it. This is how I recommend it. And and and I just kind of stop there. >> Can I ask one more question? >> This would be probably to you. you
mentioned about um helping decide when do we fund a project with bonds or write all the operations. What what criteria do we look at for that? I'll answer that one too because because >> I tried. >> Well, I don't and I'm trying too. Not
not hard enough, apparently. But but uh can't help it. I love this stuff. But uh when we talk operations, you're talking about paying for cash. So you can't do $50 million out of a fund that you get 50 million a year. Um although we built two or three elementary schools in
Carmel with cash back in the days when the funding was better, things were different. Um, but those days are gone. So, so when we talk about operations, we might do a nowadays we're looking to not do even a $500,000 project, let alone 5
million. Uh, so it's mostly operations is going to be more dayto-day, but we'll have some a mechanical unit that will break and schools in session. It's got to get fixed. If it's 50, 60, $70,000, 100,000, you got to fix it. So that's
that's operations. This stuff that we spend a lot of time talking about is bond issue. More now than ever and more to come probably by the way. One more. Um you'd mentioned early on we talked
about energy savings and solar panels. We had a some questions this meeting before. Can you describe or do you think we'll be using solar here in the near future or how do you how do >> I don't think I'll be recommending solar myself in the near future. Um and the in
the short as I can be reason why is that solar from a from a a return on investment. Um you hear a lot of publicity again about HSSE put in spent $3 million. they they got a 10 or a 10year re return return on that
investment because they're saving $300,000. My humble opinion is that that's not the return that accounts for no value of the property. You think property in caramel's free? No. So it's not free in HSA either. Now in Sheridan where there
where it's farm country and it's $45,000 an acre. Again, different situation. So here it's like where you going to put them? Um, I believe that the current ROI is more in a 12 to 15 year range. It can
be on a guaranteed contract, by the way, 20 years. 20 years, if you know anything about investments or finance um and and I do, you should hope so. But that's not a good return. We can put money in the
bank at um five or six% interest and we will we will get return on that with guaranteed. This isn't putting it in the stock market. We we can get guaranteed return forever. Not for 10 years or not for 20 when it wears out forever. Why
would we? From a finance standpoint, I'm going to save the world here and talk about that in a minute, but but from a finance standpoint, that is not a good investment. That and geothermal are the two um most they have the poorest return on
investment of any any energy saving effort that you would make. We do stuff every day. They'll tell you. But >> can you could you give a handful of some things that that the district does? >> Small things are we do a project and you do when we get finished with cherry
tree. Yeah. You guys now you can talk. >> LED lighting is by far the best investment and I've heard engineers talk about two to three year turn around quality space too. Um all of our HVAC
systems are continuing to get more and more uh energy efficient. So, every one of these projects we're doing, we're updating, replacing, uh, revising mechanical systems. >> Those 11 those 11 energy star schools to be to qualify for an energy star, you
have to be in the top 25%. We're more likely in the top 10%. You don't get there and be energy inefficient. It's energy star, right? It's about energy. Uh, and you don't get a national green ribbon if you're not uh sensitive about sustainability in the earth and all
those things. Um, we just don't brag about it enough. >> Roger, I do think we need to brag a little bit more. Although there are certainly sustainability things outside of energy, you know, I do for a living. >> Utility scale solar. I I don't think
respectfully your statements on RRI are with the most up-to-date data. maybe 10 years ago what you said is true. I don't think it's true now. Let me finish. But that said, >> I guess the question I have that leans into that is, >> you know, when do we look at that in a
real life situation? And because what you're describing a doesn't take into account that Duke and AES's rates are going up every year significantly. Generally ROI calculations are based on a flat payment for the school district
for energy and it isn't flat, it's going up, which makes your ROI over time better. So if you looked at the ROI 10 years ago or 5 years ago, it's going to be better now than it was. It also doesn't take into account the 30% >> uh tax rebate that schools can get. That
said, I guess one thing that I'd like the administration and our team to think about is when when is there an opportunity for the students that learn in these buildings every day, the parents that
volunteer every day, the teachers and staff that work in these buildings every day? Where is their ability to input during the process of building a new school or completely rehauling a new
school? When are we taking their everyday experiences in these buildings into account? And when are we talking to them about what their world is going to look like when these projects
um actually start construction? because I think perhaps we could do a better job of that both during planning because nobody in this room including me is in those buildings every single day like those people are and
you know it seems like all the decisions are made and then we tell the public that it's happening and nobody pays attention to it until the construction starts right and they have to drive around it and they get cranky. So, you know, how how can we do that part of this a little bit better? not so much a
question, but more of a um you know thinking about how we do things in a a transparent and collaborative way with the community. >> I think that's probably an Amy question, but I want to go back just to make a comment about the assumptions on solar.
The HSSE project that I used as an example was a recent project wasn't 10 years ago. It did include any savings that that you the 30% all of that at the end of the day. It did not I don't know I don't know the details of it but but but the but the people that are
promoting seller are the ones that said it was a 10-year payback wasn't me. Uh what I'm saying is is there what I did am doing is when I take their their data their their 10-year statement and say well what about the value of the property what about the maintenance of
these there's not huge maintenance but they're they have maintenance um and what about the um so so you have these additional costs that kick that 10% up and and so again I'm not I don't know whether they they accounted for
inflation I I think I would but you know we most people >> they probably didn't it's hard to forecast utility in your defense >> I'm just saying that I'm taking the data from the solar advocates and and there but the other thing I >> but I'm saying it's more than that >> right the other thing I was thinking about as well Roger is the reason why
we're different as schools and we've talked from time to time about how we have lots of >> outages in Carmel we can't have school if we don't have electricity if you have solar paired with a battery which also like solar is becoming becoming increasingly increasingly affordable and
having a better return on investment. You can keep a school open for half a day when there's no power. And we can't do that now. >> We can we do it with a generator. >> If we have a generator, >> we have a generator. >> Does every building have a generator? >> I don't know specifically if every one of them entire building or not the
entire building. We have Well, we have we have >> and we don't need it in the entire building typically because it's usually daylight when we're having school. But but we do have generators. I believe in every building if not their plan for every building including this one. And so we do have an alternative to that and
and I'm not here to debate solar. I'm just saying that there it's a larger issue. It's one me one area one method for energy conservation. Um and and there are the critics of that by the way that it's not it's not necessar it's clean energy but what do you do with all
these thousands and thousands of panels? And so there is that um but so it's a larger issue. um just not one that we've used, but it's not that we're unaware of it and we've not predetermined. It's not a matter of predetermining starts with where do we put it. Um and if property
is not of if we don't need property, we don't have a lot of grass around here we don't use, right? And so um if we didn't need it, we put solar panels on it. Then if we sold it for the x amount per acre and added that to the investment, that's
where I'm saying it's more than 10%. And so from a dollar standpoint, there's other factors that we consider as you do about sustainability and so forth besides just the money, but we are using taxpayer money. So we have propane buses and so forth. So we have other areas of
examples where we're sensitive about that. This doesn't happen to be one >> answer when do we involve when we so before we built the two elementary schools we very much engaged all stakeholders into that
process we had meetings here we met teachers We also had parent and then like at the high school the design is directly for example the
poly tech area with commercial kitchen because it very much kitchen to the culinary program. So that that's what helped us. So those are all directly supporting
where we are. Thank you very much. This is great. Appreciate your time. >> Yeah, we'll stay let's just stay here and finish it out. >> Next up is your report, your superintendent's report. >> All right. Well, first of all, Bellevia,
Lindsay, Brad, Victor, thank you so much for being here. for the time you took to put tonight's presentation together as the board shared uh very helpful, very educational. Uh Lindsay probably hates when I say this, but um when I was a first year teacher, Lindsay was a
student of mine uh at Eastwood Middle School back in the day. And so very proud of you and the work you do uh on behalf of Carmel Clay Schools. So just wanted to say thank you. And then finally, a special thank you to Roger. Uh Roger, for the past 30 years, you have put this district in such a great
place financially and as well as planning and our uh schools and our buildings here. And I just want to say thank you for all you do um not just your expertise, but saving the district and the community money and uh moving forward looking into uh how we can
continue uh to effectively utilize taxpayer dollars while keeping those educational programs strong uh for our children here in the community. So well done and thank you very much. Uh so today's superintendent report uh we have a couple of uh exciting opportunities
for our community coming up. The first is brand new on November 13th, Thursday from 4:30 to 6:00. We are going to have kindergarten connection day at every single elementary school across the
district. So parents who are interested in learning about uh Caramel Clay Schools and who have kids coming into kindergarten, every single school will be open. Uh if there are people that are in the area and want to move into the district and don't know where to move,
they can check out uh the different elementary schools to see what be what would be a great fit. They'll get tours of the building. They can go into classrooms, uh talk with our Carmel Clay School employees. So, it's going to be a phenomenal opportunity for our incoming
kindergarten families. So, do not miss it. In addition to that, we're going to have our Caramel High School open house once again. That'll be on Sunday, November 2nd from 11:00 a.m. to 100 p.m. And that is anyone in the community. If
you're a parent with an incoming freshman, if you are a fifth grade parent, you want to know more about Carmel High School, bring the whole family in. If you're shopping schools and you want to see what the best fit is for you and your family and you live in Carmel, come check out Carmel High
School and all you heard a ton of uh great opportunities that are available to your children here tonight. Come check us out. If you're a retiree in the community and you want to see, hey, I want to check out that uh new facility. I want to see what programs we're doing with work-based learning um and career
technical education and polytenic. Come to Carmel High School November 2nd from 11:00 am to 1 pm. Additionally, want to give a bit of a sports update. Yeah, I lost my voice cheering on the girls soccer team at the sectional championship in Zansville on Saturday
night. Um, and they won. I'll talk to you about that. But to everyone around this table, to Mr. Insky, Mr. Hester, the Caramel Swim Club, all of our volunteers, the World Aquatics World Cup at the Caramel High School was
spectacular. Whether you watched it on NBC on Sunday on National NBC, whether you were there, um, we had worldclass athletes from all over the world and their feedback about the Carmel High School Natitorium was just phenomenal.
And so, thank you all for being a part of that. Um, Caramel, uh, the city of Carmel certainly knows how to ho host a worldclass event as well as Carmel High School. So, we appreciate the mayor, the city of Carmel, and all of you for your
partnership on that. Girls golf, uh, they finished fourth in state. We're very proud of our girls golf team. Um, also we had Maya Fujisawa Keeling finished third overall in state and then Caris Reed earned all state honors as
well, finishing in the top 25 of all golfers. Um, Maya and Caris are freshman and so the future is bright with Caramel High School girls golf. So, we're excited about that. Caramel tennis made it to state. We have the state
quarterfinals uh that will take place on Friday at 10 a.m. And then when Carmel wins uh sorry Avon superintendent when Carmel wins they'll head to the semifinals and the final four and then to the championship and we hope to bring back the state championship this
weekend. Soccer as I mentioned both boys and girls they had one of they had the toughest sectional. Our girls beat the number four team in state, the number five team in state, and the number 10 team in state to win the sectional championship. The boys had a similar path. They're both going on. I think the
girls uh play tomorrow uh at Murray Stadium here at Carmel High School and then the boys play on Thursday in the regional semifinal and then the regional final and then heading to semi-state. Um, volleyball is set, no pun intended,
uh, to, uh, kick things off here on Saturday in the sectional. Um, cross country has sectionals coming up this Saturday at North Central High School. North Central High School. And then, uh, football ranked number two in the state of Indiana right now. Uh, we received
the sectional draw. We play Harrison at home and then when we move on, then we either get Westfield or Zansville. So looking forward to competing against our neighbors in football as well coming up. And then oh my gosh, plague unified flag football. They won a couple games in the
sectional but came up a little bit short. And then unified botchi. If you've not been to unified sports, you have to attend. Unified botchi was incredible. I attended that. Just the positivity, the sportsmanship, the competition. Um it made me want to uh
get out there and play botchi. I've never played botchi before, but the kids were having an absolute blast and it was so fun. They uh they finished top 10 in state as well in unified botchi. So, lots of excitement going on around Carmel High School sports right now. Um
and then the bell ringer for tonight. Uh I'm from Milwaukee. Uh so we have a bit of a game tonight, so we'll jump right to the bell ringer. Um, congratulations to Henry Juliet, a 2025 US presidential scholar from Carmel High School. He's an
alumnial scholar. Um, this prestigious national honor recognizes the nation's top high school seniors, including one male and one female scholar from each state. Henry joins a remarkable remarkable
tradition of Carmel excellence. Caramel High School has celebrated a US presidential scholar every year since 2021. And if you just think about that, that's just incredible. Including Carmel High School had both honores uh back in
2023. So now Henry's a freshman at the University of Michigan. He's pursuing a bachelor's in business administration with a minor in history while also gaining hands-on experience through the MECC consulting group. We're so proud of
Henry and all of our past scholars for representing Caramel Clay Schools with excellence. And that concludes tonight's superintendence report. Thank you. >> Thank you. May I have a motion to adjourn? >> Motion to adjurnn.
>> Do I have a second? >> The meeting adjourned. wasn't on the wasn't on the O show. >> Got to sign the bond issuance.