There is a plug. Used to be a cord. >> Well, they have an outlet. I think they do. >> Oh, there's one here. Here you go. You can pull it. >> Oh, there's a cord. >> Yeah, there's a cord. No, no, no. >> They did. They moved our cheese.
I'm sorry. >> All right. Uh, welcome to this regular monthly meeting of the Charlottesville Board of Architectural Review. Staff will introduce each item followed by the applicant's presentation which should not exceed 10 minutes. Chair will then ask for questions from the public
followed by questions from the B. Uh after questions are closed. Chair will ask for comments from the public. For each application, members of the public are allowed three minutes to ask questions and three minutes to offer comments. Speakers shall identify themselves and comment should be limited
to the BA's purview that is regarding only the exterior aspects of a project. Um yeah uh following the BS discussion and prior to taking action the applicant will have up to three minutes to respond.
All right. Uh first agenda item matters from the public not under items C through E on the agenda. Um, which means that the consent agenda is considered a matter from the public. The only thing on the consent agenda are the meeting
minutes from the November 18th, 2025 meeting. Do we have any matters from the public? Not on the agenda online. Nope. Okay. Um, our next item is the
consent agenda with meeting minutes from November. I move to approve the consent agenda. >> Second. >> All right. All in favor? I >> I >> I. Any opposed? >> The eyes have it. Consent agenda passes. Thank you. All right. There are no
deferred items this evening. And so we'll go straight to our first new item, which is uh window replacements for 701 through 705 West Main Street. Mr. Warner, if you'd like to start with your staff report.
To be clear, when when matters from the public, people can comment on consent. >> Yes. >> And then that might lead to pulling it. Of course, then you have to decide have the conversation with. All right. Um, first
up, this is a COA request for uh to replace the windows on this building on West Main. Um I'm trying to use the new format and uh but uh this was it's three um store
fronts. It's one building uh built in the 1920s and um I'm looking at two different things. Okay, that's nice. Yeah. developed in 1921 to replace the mixeduse block residences. Uh so yeah, it was
constructed in the 1920s. It's um has obviously the uh brick facad. It's got the I learned the word uh corey cut stones uh coreyfaced stone lintils and sills. Um and um we know that the
interior of the space was 70s and we discussed that a little bit in the the premeating. Um and uh but we think by and large the windows at least on the primary facade and on that uh side are likely original to the building. Um I
think there have been obviously some alterations to the rear. the um I think you know like all of the window projects that we've looked at um recently and as we just discussed uh how to treat some of these 20th century
buildings uh they're not you know is it a commercially made window this these aren't handmade uh yet at the same time there's the importance of the aesthetic uh of the original uh elevation So, um, at the very least, I would would
encourage, uh, the applicant to, if at all possible, uh, try to find a salvageable sash and reinsert those in the front windows, uh, at least to to maintain that original material. Um, but
otherwise, if that's not if they're not able to do that, they are proposing the use of sash inserts. So, it comes with the frame and this is a type the Marvin that fits tight inside uh so it doesn't close down um that you know you've seen
some of the past that have you know they're an inch or two smaller than the window and you end up with a large piece of flashing. Uh these are custom made and and designed to to have just enough room to to square square them up and shim them and um and have a minimal
reduction in the width. So um I said those my recommendation if it all possible to to preserve those that on the front elevation but otherwise uh this is a early 20th century building um
and the aesthetic is important and as Mr. Burl raised earlier uh tonight the city's comprehensive plan does also address uh the importance of of energy efficiency. So there's not um so there there's some validity in um evaluating
that as well. Do you have any questions for me? >> Is the applicant here? Would you like to give a presentation or speak to this? >> Not. >> That's okay. >> Um so thank you guys for having us.
Thank you for considering this. My name is Calder Kegley. Um, I'm here representing the owner of 70175 West Main. And since purchasing this building almost 10 months ago to the day, um, we've been faced with many challenges and have gotten plenty of surprises. Um,
after bringing on Mitchell's Matthews Architects, we began to formulate a plan to heavily renovate and revive the five apartment units that are upstairs. um with help of my friend Martin Quarlles who's also here with me for technical support who's got a long history of building and renovating both
commercial and residential uh properties in Charlottesville. Um we dove into the necessities to really help the help really to really help preserve the building for at least another hundred years. Um, it was very evident early on
that in order to improve the thermal barriers of the units, not to mention the rest of the building, the windows needed to be examined. With Martin's help, as well as Mark Wingers from Gaston and Wyatt, we were able to find and inspect the Marvin Ultimate Series
inserts that fit very nicely into space and best of all, do not come with storm windows. Um, by using these inserts, we'll be able to satisfy the thermal needs while also presenting an unrecognizable exterior uh facade. Um,
and also during this process, all the exterior trim will be repainted. Um, the rusticated seals will be repaired and preserved. Um, and like I said a minute ago, there will be no storm windows and any damage that those incurred to the original frames will be repaired. Um,
furthermore, just talking about the exterior around the windows, all the brick work, we're planning on repointing, replacing the existing brick that is not repairable, um, and going around the entire exterior.
And lastly, um with all the previous and upcoming high-rise construction that is happening on West Main Street, um we hope that we can be recognized a little for our effort in not only preserving but creating a space that is inviting within a historic building inside a
historic district and perhaps by example others will take this path rather than building a new. Thank you. >> Thank you. All right. Do we have any questions from the public? >> I do not see
>> No. >> Okay. Uh, any questions from the >> B? Oh, sure. >> As you indicated earlier. >> Yeah. Do you mind? Actually, sorry. Can you go up here >> just in case anybody's listening online
or watching? As you indicated earlier, the building was renovated in the early 70s. I'm almost certain the sash on the streetcape are not original and they represent that and they don't
they don't perform well. >> I got you. >> That's it. >> Okay. Thank you. >> I have a question. You're not going for um uh rehabilitation tax credits, are you? >> No. I apologize if you mentioned this. Uh, did you say that the the window units,
the air conditioner units, are those going away or >> Yes, I did not mention that. Um, speak that real quick. >> So, again, when we acquired this building, there was an air condition AC unit just about every other window around uh West Main and Seventh Street.
Um, and then what led us to taking them out was all the tenants left right about the end of December and then we had a really big cold snap. Um, so my paranoia to prevent any water from freezing, all the AC units came out and then we actually put plast sealed plastic around
the entire interior. Um, and that actually made an incredible difference in the heating capabilities of that space. And you can every single piece of plastic was blowing in like a sail on a boat. It's pretty pretty unique. But yes, no more no more AC in the
>> Okay. >> Any questions for the applicant? >> Um, I was thinking about it, but no. Um, all right. Any comments from the public? >> No one online. >> Any comments from the B? I'm just going to go back and say, you
know, the windows there are simple, easily replaceable. It's we're not losing any historic fabric that um represents Easter handiccraft or anything. Um I recognize, you know, uh staff's comment about finding a sash on another elevation building, but there
are none. Uh and even if there was, it would be pretty peace meal. So, um I mean, there are no sashes that match these. Um, so I I'm I'm fully in support of this >> and I mean it seems like there's no sashes that date to the original construction either if if this
assessment's correct. So, >> um, >> yeah, I mean I think my my biggest thing is making sure that the Marvin windows match as closely as they can to the one over one and proportions of the of this existing, which I think the existing are a replication of what was there
originally most likely. So they're it's pretty close. Um I don't really have any objections to the application. So >> I would say that the um kind of cumulative benefit of new windows in the
kind of overall preservation of the building is definitely a net positive for the user benefit comfort um and just sort of general appreciation of the building. said support this. >> Just a comment on related to kind of the
ultimate decision. I just wanted to I think it would I think it's Mr. Kegley who did a window by window survey. I really appreciated that because it allowed me to see all of the different conditions. Um you know, not just the front but the back windows. And some of
them were really, really poor, you know, kind of irreparable. Some were okay. But I really appreciated that that work that was done on behalf of the owner. So, >> thank you. >> Yeah, please. >> Apologies for the black and white, but it's really hard to take pictures of windows in color. >> I'm I'm impressed that you got the
photos that you did. Yeah. So, thank you. >> Okay. Can I make a motion? >> Sure. Having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including the city's ADC district design guidelines, I move to find that the proposed window replacements at 701 to
705 West Main Street satisfy the B's criteria and are compatible with this property and other properties in the district and that the B approves the application as submitted. >> Second. All right. Uh >> just a comment. Any discussion? >> Yeah, discussion. Are we there were
conditions in the staff report? Are we thinking that we'd like to express a preference for any of the materials? >> I think they gave us a um >> Hey, there's a cut sheet, but >> a window. >> I figured we might want to put that in a motion.
>> Um >> if anybody we didn't really talk about materiality. >> I I can proposal give that as submitted that they're going to go with those conditions. >> It's not It doesn't hurt to put it in our motion. Okay. >> Is all I'm saying. Um, I am fine with
that. Uh, >> or to give the applicant some flexibility. I mean, it it seems like they've chosen what they want, but >> you can anybody can say can agree with uh Ron and just tell me to
>> Well, well, so I I'll admit my motion to add um the replacement windows should be wood, metal, or metal clad um not vinyl or plastic. Um the um for any windows that have divided lights um there should
be an internal spacer bar. Uh and the mutton width should be between 5/8 and 7/8 inch. Um and the insert frame should fit relatively tight to the opening and retain the existing exterior trim. Um or if that exterior trim has to be
replaced, replace it with something that is similar. Second. >> Okay, I'll call a vote. Uh, Mr. Schwarz, >> yes. >> Mr. Bailey, >> yes. >> Mr. Burl, >> I. >> Miss Lewis, >> I. >> Mr. Rosenthal,
>> yes. >> Miss Tabony, >> yes. >> I vote yes. All right. Thank you guys. Appreciate it. Good luck with your restoration. Yeah, we're ready calling. >> That wasn't necessary. >> Okay, that's fine. Um,
>> so the next uh item on the agenda is a certificate of appropriateness application for the historic downtown mall replacement of the trash cans. >> Trash can replacement plan. >> Replacement plan.
It's uh Do we have >> Oh, yeah. I'm getting >> Oh, sorry. >> No, you're good. >> Yeah, this was one, you know, as you had said earlier, easily have been um on consent, but you know, I really wanted
to give Cliff the opportunity to be seen on channel 10. So, um I have to give him grief for not being here. But, um the uh you all know the story of the downtown mall. Um it was uh developed in 1976 and
the first phase first phase was completed in 1976 and then uh subsequently additional se sections were added. Um, it has been on the National Register for some time as part of the Charlottesville U historic district, but we recently got it listed uh
individually um and relative to the work of uh Lawrence Alpurn and Associates and also um uh interestingly due to the um the public process that um that led to it being uh developed. Uh normally you have to wait 50 years. though this was
put on the register 2 years early uh because um of those reasons. The um trash cans that are currently on the mall are not the original. Um I think you've heard me say before the only original can on the mall that we're familiar with is at Central Place. Uh
Cliff said they found another one in the city and I have to find out where that is. So add it to our our mall scavenger hunt with the benches. Um they the I tried to determine when these were approved but the um it's somewhat
cryptic that that at over time the Halpern can seem to disappear. I think that may have been when some of the later uh extensions of the mall were done. Uh and then there's
reference in when you all reviewed the re-bricking of the mall in 2008. reference to additional trash cans. Uh so I I think this was sort of in that um '9s 2000 era when the the original cans
were displaced and we these were installed. So these are in no way, shape or form associated with the Halpern plan, the Halpern design. um they're consistent in their color and their metal, but uh and they're round. So, uh but other than that, they're they are
not in and of themselves um particularly important elements uh relative to the same. We have to match these. But the cans that we have now are they swivel on this uh tubular frame. Um those are no
longer being produced by the manufacturer, but there's a similar uh well I I think it's all but identical uh can from the the same manufacturer. Uh that's the one on the the right. The new will sit on top of a pedestal that's
anchored onto the mall. Um and so that the tubular frames you see will be removed on. And you'll noted I I while the they've you know said this as part of the plan, I want to make sure we do state in the uh in the motion that uh
the granted pavers will be replaced. Um uh I don't want them I would recommend they not be patched. They should be replaced. Um there are several places where the cans are installed in uh concrete and so they can fix that
however they wish but I think on the mall uh we want to make sure that the the granite is is replaced. There's nothing imminent going to happen. Um they have I think a half dozen um of the cans on the left that they were able to
acquire hadn't been installed. So, this is um parks and wrecks just trying to get out ahead of um because some of them are in rush shape and it's it's uh they're difficult, believe it or not, these are difficult to um to empty out.
Um and there's a lot of uh deteriorated metal on the the frames. So, uh, by, uh, adopting a replacement can, it allows them to do some planning and, um, and as they move forward. And in talking to
Parks Rec, the idea would be, um, you know, I said, are you going to just do one here, one there? And, you know, preference would be that we they try to do things in groups, but when you're out on the mall and look at it, it's not necessarily critical that, you know, the
trash cans all match on a particular block. So, I think this is a good plan and I said it's um it it allows parks and recck to get out ahead of uh things and um and do some planning and and and have some things ready as they move forward to replace the cans. So, I said
I recommended uh um the approval. Um I did have the Yeah, I had the recommendation of the condition about the the the replacement of the papers. Um, and so unless you have any questions for me,
it's all yours. >> Do we know what the original ones did look like? >> The original cans. There is a photograph in your staff report. Okay. >> Oh, there is. >> They were round. >> Didn't see it. >> That's about all I could say. Metal and round. It's in there. Uh, in
and if I deleted it. >> Yeah, >> I remember. That must have >> It's been a um >> Yeah, >> I mean that was obviously just a curiosity. >> Yeah, it's it's a uh it it literally is a round can with a um kind of like a
tapered lid down to a hole >> and it's um >> so it let rain. >> Oh, it's very open. >> It's the one sitting at Central Place on top of it's hiding as a tree. Um they removed a tree. Okay. They put the trash can on top of it and it's been there
forever and I've somewhat opposed any touching of it. I think it's become something. >> It's an icon of them all. >> Um, >> so the the other question I had, you said that the new ones are going to sit on a pedestal.
>> Correct. >> Is it attached to set of this pedestal? >> So it's it's anchored. So >> pedestal's anchored because the can >> I don't know the mechanism of how they work. I don't think people will be picking up and stealing cans. >> But it's the you can slightly just see
it on on the right. Um there's a >> a pedestal that anchored to the mall floor and then the can is latched onto it in some way. >> So just tilt the lid back and pull the bag. >> Okay. Thank you. Any other questions for staff?
I mean um I guess the the um cliff is not here or not online. >> Okay. >> If you got question I mean there we're there's we're trying to get out ahead. >> I can put them in in my comments. >> Yeah. If you had something else we can >> I'll just make some comments. >> Any questions from the public?
>> No one I have a question that's not completely I don't know. I'm just out of curiosity. I see that the new ones have a l a hinge lid and that's how they would empty them. How are the current ones emptied if they're on that if they're hanging? >> What Cliff said is very difficult to
>> and I I didn't get into it. It seems like they're they swing and move the bag, but I >> I I took his word for it. >> Ease of staff dealing with that. I would think that these new ones are a whole lot better.
>> Yeah. And they're available. >> Yeah. Great. >> Any other questions from the B? >> Question. >> Yeah. >> Do they already have separate recycling cans on the wall for recycling? >> Good question. >> There are cans on some locations. There
are two and it's the recycling because it has the little round hole and not the giant mouth >> and not the Pac-Man mouth. Yeah. Hole. Somebody when they replaced the because it looks like they did do some replacements, >> the signage that says recycling did not
get replaced. >> Well, it's really hard to know what's recycling and what's without recognizing the fact that you got the whole round hole versus a big opening. >> It's a good question for mister. >> Yeah. >> Uh okay.
>> Unless there are other comments. I haven't I'm ready with the >> Oh, I do have some comments. >> We haven't gotten comments yet. >> Yeah, Carl hasn't made comments. >> Any comments from >> What was I thinking of? >> Any comments from the public? >> We had a question, but that's okay. >> No, >> no one online.
>> The three members. You all good? Okay, now we'll go to comments from the B. So, I I don't want to It's trash can. I mean, at the end of the day, it matches. I don't think it really like our purview. Fine. But I guess um what gets me is uh does it really matter that the
new one matches the old one so precisely because or does it matter that it's just black and round? >> Um what it gets me is we've got six replacement receptacles and 25 base covers which I think are the little tiny pucks that cover where the thing mounts into the ground.
>> Yeah. >> For $19,000500 $19,500. That's a lot of money for six trash cans. And um so I don't know if we're going to be replace there's a lot of them out there and we're going to be replacing these over time. Are we stuck
with uh the same manufacturer? Does it really? So just throwing that out there to parks and wreck is does the BA actually care that this trash can looks exactly like the one that showed up sometime in early 2000s or do we care that it's just fits in with all the
other trash cans that are out there? >> You want to talk to that? Yeah, I'm happy to comment on that. >> I have a comment, too. Go ahead. My my thought is it sounds like they're trying to do like a phased roll out. >> And so, I do see value in them matching the older ones so that you've got a consistent look up and down the mall
even if it takes 10 years to like roll out and then you're start you're back at replacing the ones we started with. >> Okay. Um, I take your point like, you know, >> is there a cheaper option that still achieves the goal? >> But if if the idea is to have I I do see
value in consistency and appearance. My other concern is that the um if you look at those little um the attachments to the um pavers, some of them are really rusted out and the city throws down way too much salt every once, which at some point I wish we could have a discussion
about that cuz it's destroying the buildings um and all the mall furniture. Um but there this new trash can is made out of steel, not stainless steel, but just plain ordinary steel that's been powder coated. And when it's sitting directly on the ground, are the bottoms
all going to rust out in a short amount of time? Um, so that's a just a question for has it been considered? Um, >> maybe that's why these ones the current ones were hung. >> I'm wondering if that might have been part of the reason for that. Um, I noticed on this manufacturer's website,
I didn't see that they had any trash cans that were hung. Um, so I don't know if that's just something people don't do anymore, but it just it I'm curious about the longevity of these trash cans sitting in so much salt every winter. Um, especially if they're just made out of plain steel. Um, and the other thing,
um, I am kind of wondering, do those steel hangers provide any sort of protection? Um, you know, are people, cuz some of the the big giant cast iron planters don't get busted up, but other people's planters do. Um, I feel like
somebody must walk up and down the mall with a baseball bat every once in a while. So, I'm kind of wondering if once we take these trash cans out from their little protective ballard areas, are they now going to be subject to getting kicked over and busted up? Um, so again, I'm just want some some things
I want to throw out there to parks and wreck to but if the bar thinks that these trash cans should match exactly minus the ballards, then I guess the conversation doesn't matter. Um, but if we're a little bit less concerned about that, then I'm I'm wondering if it would
be worth shopping around a little more. >> I mean, or could the ballards just be modified to have a hanger that holds the new trash can? You just leave the ballards in place. >> Um, a tab or something, you know, you could have it where it's got a pad lock. So,
>> yeah. Although, then are we modifying every trash can to >> Yeah. >> to fit that? >> Yeah. >> And the replacement has a hinged lid, so that might not be optimal. So, I guess what I'm kind of getting at is if this is not time-sensitive. Um, I mean, I don't again I don't want
to stand in the way of us approving a trash can, that's perfectly acceptable. But if it's something that parks and wreck wouldn't, >> you know, if they wanted to consider some of these questions, I don't know that would hurt. >> I want to ask you a question, Carl. Mhm.
Um um well actually the cost I think the cost is an interesting question but is that the trash cans or is that the masonry repair of this um the granite >> you know and is that going to be happening regardless?
>> I think that the 19,500 was for they preemptively bought six trash cans >> for when some of these fail in the future they could just pop a new one in place. >> Okay. So that's just trash cans. >> Yeah. So, Jeeoff, you can The cost of the granite would be something extra,
correct? >> Um, I I don't know. I can't respond to what I know what you just said is correct. They they these were no longer available and they got what they could, but then realizing, all right, well, as we move forward, um, my answer to them,
uh, to Cliff was that, you know, primarily what the B would be concerned about is consistency. And while we recognize we can't, you know, we're not going to go out and remake these um that they are at least um there's consistency
in that intent. It's round, they're black, they're located in similar locations, things like that. So um the fact that there was something that was visibly similar made it a little bit easier. Um I don't think that there's a I mean we I
certainly ask if there were other options uh they wanted to consider but it's possible they selected this simply feeling I mean there is a lot and I'm I'm still tamping this down all the time this oh the BA did this the B did that
and you know 99% of the times not true but you do see other departments responding to this fear that the B somehow >> yeah no I'm worried that they they chose this cuz someone decided that the existing trash cans that aren't original are somehow sacred because they're >> and and it's possible but and I and I
said Cliff Cliff uh we're working on together on a couple things and uh uh you know this is not imminent. Um I mean I think it would be helpful to okay it but if there's uh you know I don't know they may not need to buy one of these for a couple of years. So uh I can have a conversation with him about it but
>> So is Cliff with the city or No. >> Yes. >> Okay. And have these draft bands already been purchased? The six >> couple of the >> Yes, >> they have some that match what's there now. >> They haven't purchased anything >> beyond those.
>> They knew that these were being discontinued. So, they spent $20,000 to buy six ready to Yeah. of the old style. >> Right. >> So, they still will have six more trash cans that can fail that they can replace before they move on to the new ones.
the, you know, and this unrelated somewhat to this, but you most of you know I'm I mean, since I came on, I've been pushing for a a a long-term maintenance plan, management plan, uh, for the mall. You know, short-term, midterm, and long-term. Uh, you know,
you can see the condition of the mall. I mean, I I walked it again today looking at some things, and it's just it's it's in rough shape. And, um, we need a plan. We can't, you know, all of a sudden, you know, wake up one day and go, "Oh my gosh, surprise, surprise. The bricks
need to be replaced. We shouldn't be surprised by those things." But, and so that, you know, this is somewhat trying to get out ahead of that. Um, but there's a lot going on out there. And I, you know, um, I think you all could at the bar, you know,
I'm trying to keep you all involved in the mall as much as possible. Uh, but there's always that question of like, all right, well, what to what extent do I bring things to you? So, I'm I'm glad that they're asking about this and um uh but I I I I
agree. If you think there's something that would be more suitable or if you think there's something a design part or an aesthetic um I think parks and rec more than happy to hear um some ideas if you have any and we're going to talk about that in in fact at the end of the
meeting u another opportunity for some collaboration on on on them all but >> I guess my I want to make sure my comments are framed more as not this is unacceptable and we want to you cause more work for you. It's more of
if you had the opportunity to choose something else, would you like if you didn't think that you had to match it exactly, is there would there be a better option out there? >> Well, I will put I mean I and I think >> so that's a great question for them to you can always change it later.
>> $3,000 a trash can. >> Are we? So, I mean, this is these are good questions, but they do have a COA before us. And so, if we want them to reconsider, >> I can we can vote to approve this. I'm fine with that as long as those questions get >> because they can always come back to us later and say, "Is this different trash
can?" Okay. >> I doubt the city is charging themselves a fee to do a COA. >> Not that that matters either. >> All right. Roger. >> Yes. I went out there at lunchtime and u I didn't see any problems with the trash cans that I saw and uh I didn't do an
extensive right >> and you know this trash can is perfectly fine but this is the least of the concerns of the downtown mall right now is is this trash can >> and um the point that the person in the audience made is a much bigger point.
Why don't we have recycling cans that are like really obvious? Uh, totally a separate comment, but you know, if we're trying to promote recycling in the city like we do, >> it's kind of lame. >> I agreed. >> Mhm. >> And they could find something that matches this stylistically that has a
recycling lid or something. >> Well, they they do just and I mean >> I guess it's the number of them right now. There's only a few. >> Some services are single stream, so you just throw it all in one bin and they sort it out. So, I don't know if that's the case. I don't I am not but I can I
will I have it on my note to ask >> but I'm fine with this design >> actually that's a very good question is it single stream or not >> yeah it's actually >> design whether you approve it or not I think we
>> yeah functionality is beyond our >> I just I wanted to make sure I'm sorry >> you guys have comments >> um I I only am finding one guideline which is what we're supposed to talk about that pertains to trash containers
and it's in section G of chapter se chapter 6 public improvements. It's number one trash container shall be metal and should match other street furniture. We have encouraged black furniture on the mall. Um, so I would say that it meets that and I would say
there's number three criteria says attempt to make street furniture. It doesn't mention trash cans in particular but attempt to make them compatible in design color materials with existing elements. So to the extent that there's any benefit and I think there are two
one the new ones would are the same manufacturer and generally match the existing and would be easier. You know, I also think there's there's a there's a user component here that I I don't even have to think that these are
trash cans. Like I'm used to that's the trash can on the mall and you change I'm not saying change color, we probably if we change another shape or whatever, I wonder um how that would compete. I don't know. You know, it just I look at this as we have to consider the
application before us and it meets the guidelines. So I'm prepared with a motion if anybody else doesn't have any other comments. Having considered the standards set forth within the city clo city code including the ADC district design guidelines and move to find that the
proposed replacement trash cans on the downtown mall satisfy the B's criteria are and are compatible with the downtown mall and this ADC district specifically section G of chapter six of our guidelines. Um
and that we approve the application is submitted and would also add the condition that any damaged granite pavers um as the current ballards or hangers are removed be completely
replaced in kind, not just repaired. Um, I would also just add a a note to staff, not part of the motion, but it just should go on the record that um we would encourage a holistic look at recycling containers in the mall and how they might be located next to the trash
containers um to efficiently um you know get recycled items um collected most efficiently. That's my motion. >> Second. Thank you. All right, Mr. Mr. Schwarz, >> yes. >> Mr. Bailey,
>> yes. >> Mr. Burl, >> I. >> Miss Lewis, >> I. >> Mr. Rosenthal, >> yes. >> Mr. Tavony, >> yes. >> I vote yes. >> Any trash cans? Yes. >> All my questions get forwarded to parks and recck. >> Okay.
>> Thank you. >> All right. Uh so that concludes our new items on the agenda. Um and so we will move to pre-application conferences. Our first one is for 528 Valley Road. Um the
project is construction of nine town homes. Uh >> all right. So, this is um a pre-application conference uh for a project in the Oak Gilder Sleeve ADC
district. So, you're not making any votes tonight. You're not approving anything. No formal motions, but um I will ask that you all um this is an opportunity to provide um uh
given the scale of this thing to to um let's provide sort of position where the the B falls relative to the massing the scale the placement of these uh uh so that moving forward if anything have to be
contemplated relative to the site plan that that the applicant knows where you all stand. Uh so quickly uh existing on this site is a um is a colonial revival brick dwelling that was constructed in 1937. um tried to learn a little bit
about the folks that that built it. uh gentleman named Peter Witzell um and his family seemed to have constructed and lived there um until at least 1961 and then um the Comptons uh moved in and uh
I couldn't determine how long they were there, but it appears that this has primarily been a rental uh unit uh since the Compton family left. the um again the existing house will not be at least
we haven't had any um information about changes to it. I uh you know it certainly might get rehabbed or tinkered with but there are no changes uh being proposed in this uh iteration. The um
the request is the construction of three buildings and u labeled building one, two and three. building one being uh out at the street and I think that's the one I would encourage you to to maybe focus
on. Um this is a uh and I as I said this the staff report this is an example of where we're heading with the new uh code of development uh looking at higher density infill uh adjacent to single family what had been single family
dwellings uh or certainly a single family dwelling uh neighborhood. Um, so this is what I I suspect we will see more of versus the the you know multi-story buildings that that that um you think we might see more of. I
think this is going to be the the predominant theme. So the the guidelines are very clear on um an addition to an existing structure. Um, this isn't an addition. Um, but it's new
construction, but it's associated with with with the the district and this house. And while this is in a district, this is somewhat similar to what we dealt with over on Seventh Street, where uh the context for these three buildings, given if if in the Oak
Gildersleeve District, the in actually that view, you're looking south, but there's a the road fish hooks and heads back towards um the university. Um, and this house sort of sits at the bottom somewhat by itself and the rest of the street are these 1930s, 1940s kind of
Cape Cod cottage type houses. Um so it is there is the context of these is primarily uh in reference to the house at 528 and then immediately to the well in this image here what would be the
west um or some is an empty well just a wooded lot and then some non-contributing structures. So um what I my recommendation in the staff report is that you all kind of uh decide on some
parameters for um you know do you want to look at this as an addition not I know it's not an addition but look at it in terms of being subordinate to uh the primary structure or do you again looking at primarily building number one
do you look that as almost and I believe the intent is to create a new parcel, but as if that's a new building on a separate lot and sort of judging it in and of itself relative to the to the rest of the district. Um
I sus the architecture of it hasn't um I don't know how far that design has gone. It seems to be um somewhat early. So uh but I think the massing and the scale uh certainly can be evaluated. But there also is the materiality that um and when
I when I talk about something being um treated as an addition if this for example the elevation here at the bottom if that were an addition to this house um it certainly is differentiated from it uh you wouldn't confuse the two but
you would also I you know is that compatible is that stark difference uh does that achieve does still achieve the compatibility that you would want to see in in in in something in a set of buildings so close together. So I I'm
I'm offering some some some ideas to sort of uh frame around. Then you know once you decide all right what's important which context is important which relationship is important. Um then as we we move through the the the the discussion you kind of go back to
all right well we establish that what's most important is X. the house to the left here. While the project crosses over the parcel boundary onto 526, uh that's to accommodate the parking lot and and so this is a it is a two parcel
project, but for for the purposes today of this discussion, just focusing on 528. The house at 526 is a 1940s or 50s uh ranch style house. It looks like it had a popup done at some point in time. Um, I'm not sure if the new um town
houses are trying to emulate that. Um, but I I I I don't I don't view uh 526 or at least the the pop-up version as as a um as contributing to the to the historic district there. Um,
so that's my sort of recommendations to you all. Uh, I didn't want to go too much into the details. Again, preliminary discussion. There's an outline here of some of the things that you typically ask for, uh, that you, you know, make sure if there's something
particular that you would like to see in a detail or information provided, now's a good time to say it. And I think, you know, ultimately, uh, you know, while we've tended to treat a preapp discussion as sort of a meet and greet, um, I I I'd like I recommend that we
take a a stronger view and and um and give the applicant some direction that that they can uh move forward with. Any questions for me? >> Okay. All right. Is the applicant here this evening? Do you all want to give any sort of
presentation? >> Um, I I don't have a formal presentation. Um, but to introduce myself, I'm Adrien Strong. I'm a principal with Gaines Group Architects. Ray Gaines is the applicant. He could not be here tonight, so I'll do my best to answer questions. Um, we also have a representative from Ship Engineering
here to answer any questions you might have for the civil engineering team. Um, we did approach the project from a standpoint of preserving the existing house there, um, and not touching it. Um, so that's really what this is in response to the city zoning and and
what's being allowed um in the residential lots and and trying to to squeeze in that that needed housing stock. >> Thank you. Thanks for being here. >> Um, okay. Well, this is a pre-application conference, so we're not going to invite questions or comments
from the public, but uh I'll just kind of open it up to B. Um, see what yall's thoughts are. I guess my initial thought would be to look at these as new construction as opposed to additions because they're not connected
to the house at all. Um, you we should certainly kind of take the house into consideration as we're looking at these buildings, but to me it's new construction. Seeing some nodding heads. >> Yep. Yep. Absolutely. >> So, that checks that box, Jeff. There's
there's number one. >> Uh, if only. >> Yeah. And then um you know I so I think yeah so I think we're charged with kind of trying to tackle some of the bigger picture things so we can whittle this thing down and craft help the applicant
uh get to a good design. Right. So um I think scale and massing is our next topic of discussion. So >> yeah I want to commend you for for preserving the house for keeping the house. I mean, it's it's a really handsome house on the end of uh >> Mhm. >> uh where this road the character of the
neighbor kind of deteriorates as you get down to the the bottom of this. And this is a really nice example of a mid-century um nicely scaled house. So, if you're going to do that, then I think you need to respond to it in a way that is maybe more sympathetic than what you're
suggesting with building one at least. I think building two and three because they're so subservient in their in the site plan um aren't as uh noticeably out of scale as building one is. Uh and I don't know if
you can get maybe that top floor into the roof with dormers. Um that would be maybe a possibility if it doesn't cut too much down on uh square footage. And I also think that the entries are um
not appropriate for the neighborhood. It seems like an afterthought almost the two entry porches. >> Is there a image that would be more helpful to real? >> I think the um axonometric are there. >> Well, quick question before you leave
this. Uh oops. Nope. So that in the on the left hand side that's the railroad track. Right. >> Correct. >> So and then I think what would be helpful I don't know if there's service street view that helps show how tall the buildings are in relation to the existing house but that would help me
out. The axon's not bad. >> Yeah. The axon kind of is what I'm looking at. >> Mhm. >> It's sort of bird's eye. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's not really nice. >> Well, sorry. cuz that, you know, so picky. >> Yeah, the railroads is there's a rise
there where the where the sea monsters and the world ends. So, >> right. >> Um >> I guess are these are these there's three stories, right? The town houses. So, they're a full story above the house itself. >> Mhm.
>> Which is 200% of the prevailing height and width, which is >> our guidelines would permit that. And I'm sure the new zoning ordinance does. So, >> I'll I'll make some comments. The height and width is hard for us because of the
new zoning ordinance and our guidelines. Maybe I don't want to say they're direct in direct opposition, but maybe kind of hard to reconcile right now. So, I would I mean I' I'd benefit giving the applicant a little bit of leeway in
that. um where our guidelines might um require a more strict application um if the ordinance is calling for that just the massing and all of that but but for instance the spacing between the buildings is I mean it's very very
limited >> um and I don't know you know I know this is preliminary maybe there are fire code issues maybe you've already you know looked at those but um but I would say spacing I'd also just like to ask the applicant Yeah. And if Shimp has already passed on that, that's great.
>> Um, >> yeah, >> I can speak a little bit to the spacing with with all of these lots that we're trying to work on. We're running into a lot of utilities and easements and requirements that make it really hard to
fit all the intended density of the zoning code. So that's that's kind of why you're seeing the layout. This the area where the parking is and all of the area behind 526, there's a bunch of existing sanitary pipes um that go off
in various directions in that area. So we're kind of trying to fit things where they can go. >> And I'm sorry to be asking you guys this question, but you would know >> how many heights could you do here on any of these buildings? Just three. Yeah, the it's max three stories are 40
foot in RV zoning. >> Yeah, >> I'll I'll just I because we're supposed was just sort of be asking you questions and I mean you've had to submit this and you've been given a copy of the guidelines. Why don't you tell us how
these new buildings comply with our design guidelines? You could just point out some things. Maybe this a question for the architect. >> Yeah, absolutely. Um so so because of the zoning we do have a minimum but also a maximum setback from the road. So so
these structures do have to get closer to the road. There's also a build to width. So we do have to cover a certain num amount of that road frontage there. Um which makes placing these a little bit tricky on on a very narrow site. Um
we did try to at least scale it down somewhat with that water table design. not so much responding to what's at 526, but just to try and reduce the the scale down a little bit um facing the road there at Valley Road. Um and then looked at some of the colors from the
neighborhood to really pull in uh some of the existing greens. There's some green roofs, green shutters throughout the neighborhood uh that we tried to emulate with this uh but also make it look like it's new stock and it's not trying to replicate something that's existing there. in the staff report um
on page three at the bottom there's an analysis of the spatial elements and setbacks uh spacing along with those. Yeah. >> And so within an RBZ zoned district the uh the front setback can be 10 to 20 ft but also can be within the uh existing
range of nearby properties. Um, so that's that's that's it's not a required. Um, this is one where they said that they're, you know, looking at what's going on on the rest of the street. So >> So there's not a maximum setback.
>> Well, there is a it's it's 10 to 20 ft or within the existing range of nearby properties. Now, I don't know whether that's uh uh something the zoning administrator can has to answer to or but you have the latitude to um
>> set it back a little bit more. >> It's it's not it's not prevented um by zoning. >> Can I add a quick response to that? Um so on the portion of the lot with building one
>> the the width of that portion of the lot is 34 feet. So once you subtract a five foot rear set back five foot >> front or 10 if you go all the way and then we also have to stay off of the stream there. So going any smaller kind
of makes that not buildable at all. I think is again why we're we're at the layout that we're at just trying to >> is the stream parallel with the um train tracks. >> Yes. >> Okay. And is that shown as the is that the dash line that I'm seeing
>> um on the other >> in the site plan? >> Probably. >> It's the three dots and a dash. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It pretty much parallels that lower boundary line that you're seeing there. So >> what's the offset you need from the stream? We are in coordination with okay
the city engineers on this. There's some discussion on >> what this is designated at. Um so yeah, we we may there may be some more back and forth with that, but we're not going to get more space than what we're showing now. That's that's for sure. >> Yeah.
>> Um my um I want to echo um Mr. Burl's comments. I agree with all of them. Um, I'm just looking at your in in uh respect to the relationship to the existing building. This building feels like it's too far forward and too big on
the street. This is just sort of a kind of my gut reaction. Um, and I wonder if I wonder if you actually like flipped the building on the site plan north to south like what that would do and cranked it to the stream align with the stream if that would like
>> lessen that. um massing that sort of overwhelming mass. >> You wouldn't have that big corner. >> Right. Exactly. >> Right. >> Yeah. I think that's a really great point. Staying parallel to the street there is not helping. >> Yeah. >> It's making it proud of the historic asset, you know.
>> And then your smaller volume would sort of be a little bit more sympathetic to the other volumes along the street front. >> Yeah. But again, I think the notion of the like entry, the form of the entry, they feel very dimminative now. I think they
we should celebrate the entry spaces a little bit more. Um I also think the um there's something interesting about your facades where there's a kind of vertical striation with the windows because I think you have some stair columns behind where the windows are sort of offsetting
which is kind of colliding with your horizontal banding. And I wonder if you switched, you know, switched your kind of horizontality to a more vertical expression on the front if that would actually help you kind of break down those facades a little bit more. Um,
I don't I personally don't think there's like a problem with going with the height and so like why short why try to like short shorten it with a kind of horizontal stripes, you know, just maybe I would suggest respond more to the um
function of your building and where the windows are falling and sort of celebrate what's going on from the interior there. Yeah, I I would agree with that. I think it's um so our guidelines do allow you to be, you know, within 200% of the the
height and you are um and I think the width you were I think you found that was right pretty close to where it needs to be. But it is out, you know, compared to its context though it is a very large flat building and um surrounded by a bunch of one and a half story Cape Cods.
So I think the materiality and the way that you kind of I don't want to say decorate but yeah decorate the building is is there a way to break the massing down. So yes either treat it like town houses or something so it's more vertical and it's breakdown so it doesn't feel quite so wide or um maybe
there's a way to modulate the facade a little bit so it's not so flat. Um the flatness is the windows because it's such a flat facade. >> I mean it makes sense. I know what you're doing with the stairs and whatnot, but it looks like someone just kind of scattershot windows on a flat facade.
>> Um, and I don't think that's what you're going for. >> Um, I do agree with the other statements that it does feel like it's >> um, too close to the street. Um, so if there is some way to crank it or change the orientation or
something that makes it fit better with the existing setback range, that would be great. But, um, if not, if there's some way to at least break down the massing somehow. Um, the you've got sort of a semicontemporary roof going on. Um,
it doesn't really it's not contemporary. It's not modern, but it's also not traditional. Um, and I think, you know, there is a there's a mid-century modern house a couple houses to the west. Um, I think it's the only one in there, but at least it's it is there. Um, so you could
do something contemporary, but if you do, then kind of do something contemporary. And this is kind of a it's an in between right now that I don't think is fitting in with anything. Um, what else did I get at? Uh,
um, yeah. Yeah, I think that's Yeah, I'm about the rest of you guys. I think the buildings two and three I'm a little less concerned about. It'd be great if you could do something to make those facades a little less plain as well, but
because they're behind the existing house, it seems like they're a little less >> building one that's much warmer. >> A little bit of context. Um, looking just slightly more uh to the left of the screen there, the the hospital rises up in the background. So, it sort of dwarfs
everything there. and the new UVA. >> Can I just make sure I'm hearing you all? I'm understanding or I'm hearing what you're saying. It's it's that this house here would it's not over here. It's it's it's this relationship here. Like is there a way for that I was
looking for the laser but a way for that >> left hand side to pivot. >> Yeah. >> I think it's almost a 180. >> I don't know if I >> Well, so go to the plan. >> Oh, 180. Yeah, that's interesting. Go to plan view. >> Hold on. >> So if you take building one down there
in the lower left, >> if you what if you aligned it similar to the other two where the what's now the front of the building becomes the back and is aligned more with the property line, >> right? >> That's what that's what Kate was saying. >> Yes, I know. I guess I'm agreeing with
what she was saying. >> I don't know where if that was >> Well, yeah, that's what it it's not the whole front. That's what I'm >> I'm It's not the It's >> the smaller portion becomes the front with a step back. >> Yeah. >> A jog in it.
>> And hopefully that works with the zoning code. >> Now I'm wondering if it does. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't understand. >> I'm I think it is better what you're describing. I'm just saying. Now >> Yeah. >> I'm not a I'm not a zoning code expert.
So, right. I didn't say that. I did not say that. Say that. Nope. >> Doing that. >> Yeah. >> So, the double volume is on the left side. >> It's on the bottom. >> Pinch side. >> Oh, it's on that. >> I mean, that second volume might still
need to sort of deform a little bit >> and and >> you know, but I think if the main mass is parallel to the creek and, you know, I think it would work and you wouldn't be any closer to the creek than you already are with this. >> Yeah. Um, >> I also, um, how close is building two to
the existing house? Because it looks like it's right close there, doesn't it? >> It says 15 ft. Is that right? >> Right there in that in that corner. Is that a back porch there? >> A patio. >> Patio. >> Um, >> still right there. >> Yeah,
>> that was my first question was whether you said you had checked on that. Double check that. Yeah. How much parking do you have? >> Yeah, that's we're currently showing 15 spaces. Um
>> for how many units you have? Nine. >> Nine. >> Yeah. >> Plus the existing I believe the intent is for 526 and 528 to also utilize this parking lot if I'm right. Um, right now there's a lot of parking in the front yard.
>> So, um, trying to get rid of that situation and allow that beautiful porch to be shown. But, but we we also are required to meet the new zoning code bike parking requirements. So, there is one long-term bike parking
per unit plus like two or so short-term bike spaces. And this is pretty pretty close to a lot of the EVA areas, so I think And this owner also owns 526. >> Yeah. >> And is there
>> I know we're supposed to only look at what's being submitted to us, but take that >> the current Sorry. >> Did you finish that thought? He asked a second question. >> Well, the reason we and I I that's what I said in the staff report about, you know, a portion of 526 includes this. Uh
but for purpose of this discussion, we're just gonna we're treating as 528 and and and you certainly can if you don't if issues with and the guidelines do address the the site design. So in the parking lot is fair game on that. Um but when this were or if this comes back
and it's a formal application would it would be for 526 and 528 or or which if these are broken into separate parcels, however it is, but all the parcels that would be affected would be part of that application. Have you thought about redeveloping 526 or adding on to it? I mean, there looks like there's a lot of
real estate there. No, >> I don't know that that has been brought to us as a topic of consideration, but I can certainly ask the owner. >> I I think what was said was that it looks like it was a cave one story and then it was busted out, you know.
>> Yes. >> A second story was added. Um so our our guidelines say that when there is an addition to which we've determined it's not but if there were if this was if these were attached um and
being added onto this that we would want to distinguish the new from the old. But actually the opposite. It our guidelines say the opposite about new construction near a historic asset that they should complement them and not mimic anything
and not be false historicism but should complement them. And I I just don't see how at least in these you know I know this is really early and this is not refined. you're just it's probably massing and setbacks and stuff that you want us to look at. But I I find this
historic asset like really unique that Loia for lack of a better word is so different. I mean that is just a really unique thing on you know relatively modest house that I think distinguishes it from a lot of other houses in the city. I don't know if that it's
especially on a front facade. Uh, and I wouldn't want you to mimic that, but I wonder in a contemporary way whether you could reflect that um or other aspects of this house. We're not, you know, we're not getting a really good view of
it and I didn't have a chance to drive by, but not saying put fake gabled windows or whatever, but but picking up up on cues that would situate it and make, you know, make them respond to the historic asset. And I think it is
historic, you know, and it and like I said, I think I think it's unique in my opinion. Um, just because it's who did that? I mean, >> I think it's also the the district, right? Like this isn't it's not an IP. So like seems like the majority are that kind of Cape Cod style. >> Yeah.
>> So I even without the loia or whatever. That's right. Yeah. But the Yeah. The brick Cape Cod, you know, >> so it's a materiality. >> Yep. um you might could try and introduce some brick or some of I think Roger's suggestion of um the sort of dormer window um if is is maybe a way to
kind of reduce the feel of the height but still achieve your three stories you know be on a bigger scale of course but I think yeah like you can see how some of those um >> all of them almost have dormer windows so that's a feature that you can pick up on that's in the district right and respects the district um sort of
colonial revival Cape Cotti style Again, you're talking about building one and not necessarily saying >> I mean the other two, >> but but but primarily building one, but I mean, the other two aren't going to fully disappear >> behind this house, right? They're going
to peek up over it, and so they should respect the house and the district. Um, so yeah, I mean, I think materiality might be a way to achieve some of that, too. There's a lot of brick, though. There's a lot of painted white, too.
Um I almost feel like the the duality of what you've got is almost like referencing more the the other house 526. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> Right. And so >> very compatible with 526. Don't know >> if that's the way it wants to go, but
that's just my opinion. >> Um you know that's that the only real redeeming feature there is that really strong chimney I think. >> Mhm. But um >> I do and also like Carl's I wanted to echo his comment on the window placement
like I guess especially on the rendering of building one there's at least two windows that were sort of crossing over between the lower portion and the upper portion and that didn't look so great. Um but I think I think we've also all recognized this is early on in the design stage. So a lot of this is going
to get flushed out as y'all do your do your work, right? Um, what other questions do you have for us? Do you have some specific things you wanted to hit us up with? >> Um, it was mostly the massing and
materiality. Um, there will be some, uh, difficulty getting borick onto the site just because they are shoehorned onto these lots. >> So, um, so it might be we can look at thin brick options or or something to that effect. Um,
>> wow. But >> so it's that close that the thickness of a brick veneer is would cause a problem. >> It's pretty close. And uh we worry about constructibility um with the getting contractors in to do the work. So we
don't want to put things right up on the edge. But um especially getting a mason that would turn that corner between the buildings. But um but yes, that is something we can explore. When you talk about materiality, I do notice you've got vinyl windows called
out. >> Um, which is we that'd be a very hard uphill fight to get those. Um, similarly, the sighting, is it fiber cement or are you guys thinking vinyl for that? I don't think vinyl, I guess. I think at least fiber cement.
>> Okay. >> Um, yes. So, I know that um margins on this one are are tight. Um, so we'll uh we'll see what we can do there. >> Okay. But that is that's pretty explicit in our guidelines that finals we don't want
to see that. >> Okay. >> Any other any other thoughts? So, I've been taking notes. I was going to just rattle them off really quick because we're trying to do better at summarizing these prefabs. Um, and
folks, please jump in if I u misspeak or if you want to correct me. Um, so consider this. We're considering this new construction as opposed to an addition. Um, we compliment you for saving and respecting the existing house. Thank you. Um, scaling massing of
building one is kind of more, I'll say troublesome, but more of a challenge, I guess, than maybe buildings two and three. Um perhaps reduce the size of number one. U maybe using dormers to achieve a third floor or potentially flipping the floor
plan around to reduce the facade along the street side respecting that that may conflict with zoning code. Um but should be looked at and considered. Switch from a horizontal to a vertical breakdown to help break down the
facades, but go ahead and kind of own the verticality of the buildings. Um, for the roof line, sort of pick a style and go with it. Um, Carl mentioned there's kind of contemporary, modern, traditional, but there isn't they're not like like one thing. Uh, question of how
close is building two to the existing house. Um, the new construction should complement the historic asex and district. And then materiality, we asked to, you know, explore brick door windows Cape Cod style and avoid vinyl.
decent summary. Any additions or >> Cool. >> And I'll just tell you all the the the video will be >> is online. You can go back and listen to that. Uh and it's always fun to hear uh
you know what you missed. Um it's uh but uh so that that's streaming now, but just go to the city's web page and >> follow there. Okay, cool. Well, we look forward to working with you guys on this project. Thank you so much for bringing
us. >> All righty. Our next pre-application conference uh is Zero Lexington Avenue. Uh construction of a new single family home. >> And this one is u it's at what is the
address? >> Zero Lexington. >> Z new house, right? >> And I'm sorry, guys. So since the staff report was published, we now confirmed it is 7:14 officially with city G. So our department got that done. Thank you. Now >> that's right.
>> We like to we like to suspend, you know, to hold out on the exciting things and announce them on live television. Um >> 7:14 >> 714 um Lexington. >> So this is within the um Martha Jefferson uh historic conservation
district. Um, so, uh, >> you usually don't get a lot of, well, we don't get a lot of new dwellings anywhere really that it's it's >> Yeah, it's surprising how few new dwelling units uh, you all have looked
at and we we rarely get a um, sort of a preapp discussion within a conservation district. Um, but um, this is a vacant lot. This is uh, if you recall the project we looked at at St. Charles uh last month. This is uh sort of on the
Lexington side and one to the north of that. And um the uh property owner is uh that's developing this will the the house will look very much uh like following the lines of the
house. you see her on the on the the left of this um and uh where there are a few if you seen in the drawings um there's some setback and boundary line issues they need to resolve um because
the house at 716 actually encroaches but u that's not that those aren't problematic and it's not anything that would affect what you guys are looking at so uh we know that has to be addressed the Um it's it's always
you know difficult in a conservation district because we are supposed to have a lighter touch. Um yet at the same time um you know we do want to you know make sure that at least that front elevation is is u and in this case
is is compatible with the district. Um, so I in my staff report I offer, you know, some of the comparisons of the of the the I think it all it fits the setback, the spacing between it, the
height certainly does. Um, materialitywise, uh, I think there are some questions about what's going where um, and you know, possibly some detailing um, of elements at that front elevation. Um,
this thing could be 100 feet long going into the rear. We're not looking at that like uh we would with a with an ADC district. So, focusing on that front elevation and what's visible from the street. The um Kate, I'm trying to remember what was it that we had. There
was like one or two things we spotted. Uh yeah, I think primarily it's that uh for me and and for you all to to this is one where like on St. Charles if if conceptually
this design um fits and you all um have any questions about the materiality and how it will be used. The opportunity is then is there for for staff to review it after this to review it administratively if you allow that. But I think that we
would want to get um there's this is sort of a stark elevation here. So there's not enough detail there to sort of judge what we're we're getting. Um and I and I so I'd like to have that discussion now if we can or at least get some clarity so that possibly we can
review this administratively. Um and yeah, so I I know the applicants here, right? And uh and we do lay this out again. Uh if you go to the staff report, um going
through what's nice about the design guidelines for conservation districts, they're only uh two and a half pages long, so it's relatively easy to um to kind of go through and find things. Now, one thing different about this house that um it does have a carport on the
side. Um and so they've so it's not a garage. Um there are we do have port to co shares and in a few other houses. It's not completely unusual, but I I think even with that uh this house
designwise fits, it certainly is complimentary to the house next door. And um the fact that the that side is in a garage um uh I didn't see any problem with that. So any questions for me?
Okay. Is applicants here? Would you guys like to I don't know if you have a presentation or not or if just want to answer questions, whatever you prefer. >> Um yeah, no no formal presentation. I can just give a a brief summary. Um I'm Bridget with Alloy Workshop. um
representing our clients, David and Chris Gardner. Um we our client is looking for um primarily an age in place um modest structure um that they can move into and stay there. Um so hence
the singlestory. I think I noted a comment that actually much of the neighborhood was twostory w which would have been great too but I think given the the program that we have with our clients um a singlestory space made more
sense and they're looking for um a modest sized house under under 2,000 square feet is what we're shooting for. Um so again kind of um the footprint um um makes sense as a singlestory space.
Um they have um they really like a lot of the views from the site especially in the back that kind of informed the L-shaped design around um a patio pool area. Um so that was kind of a feature
when we were doing the design. And then also, as you've noted, the carport. We looked at many options. everything from a detached garage in the back of the site, parking spots in the
front, carports, and again, I think with the aging in place goal, having having near proximity of whatever parking structure we were going with to the house became um something we
really wanted to attain. and we landed on um this carport which is kind of embedded into the house design and the goal there was to make it so that it's not a freestanding carport structure per se in the front of the yard or the side
of the yard but that it kind of just integrates into the the whole design um to be more minimal I guess with with being a parking structure. Um I think that's it. >> Okay, >> can ask questions. >> Great. Thank you very much.
>> Yeah. >> Um I mean I'll just start and say I feel like this fits in pretty well with at least the house right next door and and fits into the neighborhood um really sympathetically. So I commend you for that. >> Thanks.
>> Anybody have you guys worked with zoning yet on this? We we have been in communication and as Jeffrey mentioned um we have to um talk about the the property line which we actually have a meeting with Benjamin Kobe tomorrow afternoon and so
we'll get that resolved. >> I guess I'm actually more wondering about the carport. >> Oh he he gave thumbs up to >> interesting >> forward with that. Yeah. >> Okay. Okay that's that's good. I um planning commission's been having discussions
about active depth requirements and whether Yeah. So that's interesting. I need to talk to Ben, I guess, to see what the interpretation is there. >> Okay. >> What are you thinking that it explicitly said? >> I Yeah, I thought it wasn't allowed. Um
but if it is, um that's great. Um I think Well, I don't it's Yeah, the planning commission has been having a lot of discussions about this. So this that's uh it'd be interesting to I'll talk to Ben. Okay, great. >> Not to get you guys in trouble, but No, that's >> to find out what I get. And I want the
goal of this meeting to be as Yeah. with the previous applicant, everything. And >> what we can't do is just as helpful as what we can do. So, >> I don't know what the planning commission says, but I much prefer a carport to a garage snout at the beginning of a house.
>> Yes. >> Yeah. >> I have a question. When I look at A1.6, six. The perspective it looks like there are already some curb cuts that are I'm not sure exactly where the where
that is. Is is this a single property that's being divided by the owner? >> It has already been divided. I believe my colleague Michael can see more. >> They purchased both lots together and immediately
>> divided it. Okay. So, I guess that curb cut is a remnant of when this was a single property. And >> I believe that's right. >> It it it would seem you'd want to get rid of that and if you're going to have one right next to it, but um seems
obvious, but uh worth worth noting. And and I actually agree with the the other comments here about the uh carport being better than a garage doors facing the street, but I think that you could potentially um explore the side
elevation of the carport so that it doesn't quite look like a a truss that's spanning 24 ft. you know, that could become a little more opaque >> um with maybe a low wall or maybe some openings or maybe even just sort of a columnation that uh breaks that scale
down a little bit. It's not so much the the roof line that's problematic, but just breaking it up a bit. Or >> to me, it just seems like a a it looks like a a park gazebo on the side. And it seems like it would be more residential if that had a little bit
more um scale to it. Um I mean, it might be just as simple as having another couple posts there. Okay. >> In my mind, >> what the material for the siding? >> Um the client would very much like it to
be brick. Um however we have budget concerns and so um we have um Hardy siding as another alternate material in in the color kind of that you see in in the in the image there.
So so hopefully brick um but if we have budget constraints then it will be yeah hardy horizontal plank sighting >> in the materials they submitted. >> Mhm. I just have a question. Um, is the intention to kind of match the aesthetic
of the neighboring property with the volume? >> Yeah, certainly with the the form >> like the roof lines and the the front elevation. >> Um, the neighboring property is brick. Like I said, I don't I don't know if
we're going to be able to do brick, but um yeah, we were kind of trying to just tie in with the the adjacent house there. >> I got it. Are you good? >> Um, no. I mean, I think I'm I'm I'm curious
about the carport. I find it to be a little like a little jarring, but I think Roger's suggestion of some sort of cladding or screen or something along that uh adjoining property side would be really helpful.
>> Um and also like it makes me wonder what is the material inside of the carport because with a car not there, I don't want to look in and see garage, you know? I think it having drywall >> brick or you know >> no I think I think the hardy would wrap
all the way around. >> Yeah, certainly. >> And then the surf it also brings up the question of the surface of the driveway. What what is that and is that continuous going into the because I guess what I what I'm reading with it is that like
>> I'm not sure if that's interior or exterior space and and that's creating a bit of a tension with me. M >> um I don't know that it can't be resolved, but I I think um it's a curious condition that I would like to see more
of with more resolution of the details. >> Yeah. >> Um we have not given a ton of thought as to the the material I would say for the driveway yet and if it's differentiated once you are in inside the carport area
versus outside. Um, I know our clients would like something very maintenance-free. Um, but yeah, this is all good food for thought cuz I have not dug into the the materials yet. >> Um, are there driveways in the adjacent
properties or in the neighborhood? >> I think material a lot of just asphalt neighboring driveways. >> It's a lot of everything there. There are a couple carports further up Lexington. Um, so there is a precedent.
I mean, they're off to the sides of the houses. They're never kind of made part of the massing of the house, but the district ends there, though. That's that's the last house on the left kind of thing. >> You can see the floor of the cardboard being concrete. >> Yeah, that's going to have to be concrete. And it actually be nice if it
were concrete all the way down all the way up >> uh with a a nice colored concrete versus black top. that's going to be as big a you know, yes, garage doors on a front facade are kind of an eyesore, but you know, having a big asphalt driveway
going up on the front of the house isn't exactly uh beautiful either. >> Yeah, that's a that's a nice one. >> Yeah. And uh Martha Jeff, you've got one of everything. um not really too much
about the site um uh issues in the guidelines. Um so, but it is one of those places you if you want an example, it's probably over there. >> Yeah. Can you peek at the other house on the other side real quick? Uh >> these are not in the district, but
>> No, but the neighboring house on the other side of this parcel, >> this >> the one that it's mimicking or >> Yeah. >> 716, I think. Yeah, it's right there. >> Yeah, it's a little hard to see. >> So, I guess I have a question about that. >> It's not really a curb cut. It's just a
>> Yeah. >> Is that house uh does it have additions on the back? >> Um yeah, it definitely has at certain point >> multiple additions, >> things added on. >> So, where I was going with that was kind of going to materiality like and I don't
know. It's hard to see what those materials are if they're all the same or if there's >> there's pictures of the staff >> there. Yeah. saw. Um, but I didn't >> I didn't see that. It's >> So, so where I was going with this is potentially you might explore cuz it it seems like you're following suit a little bit in the massing of your design
to kind of have it look like it's got additions going to the back from changing the roof line and whatnot, >> right? And so you might actually play with that and even though it's a, you know, one building campaign, you could kind of form up additions, if you will,
if you needed to change materiality and that might help your budget issues as well, where perhaps like the front of the house could be brick, but then potentially have >> um different material went back just to just that way the brick might fit in better with the streetscape. And then if
you needed to save a little money, switch to already blank going back. um kind of like with the neighboring house that it's >> Yeah, >> you already broken it down on your roof line, right? >> Match that as you go back to make it >> a faux editions, if you will.
>> The last time we worked with Bridget on a project was that house over on Hartman's Belt Road that was a >> a collection of >> we're not sure what. Uh so uh she's had good experience with uh uh >> what is this TV
>> is the is this house slab on grade? Is that how you're going to build it? >> Um we usually like to do a crawl space of some sort for all of the HVAC and plumbing considerations. I think it's it
just seems to be our preference typically. Is that Yeah. >> I like it. >> Okay. >> So, um I'm just going to say this so you guys can decide if you want to do anything with it or not. Um but just in case
>> I don't want you guys to get a gotcha later on for >> Exactly. >> Um what I what I just looked up and what I think is the way this works is your minimum build to width is 65% of the lot width. Um and that built to width, um
all of it, um has to be everything that's up to that 65% has to be treated as active depth. Um and parking is not allowed within that active depth. So just as you're doing the math on the site for how wide everything is,
>> um just make sure that doesn't become and maybe there's an exception somewhere that I missed. >> Okay. >> Um but my understanding is that for 65% of the of the lot with has to be building without cars in it. Um, so I guess and
yeah, again, there could be an exception, but I just don't want you guys to like get so far down the road and then when it gets to building permit, someone says, "Oh, wait a sec. You can't do this." >> Right. Precisely. That's why Yeah. All of your comments are very appreciated. Um, so that is a that is a rule within the zoning thing.
>> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yes. And Carl, does that mean that they would allow a garage? No, because that's still the garage would be you'd be parking within that act. So if you had 65% was house >> and then another 10% was garage
>> then it would be okay. >> Um but it's >> so that's my understanding. I could be very wrong but I guess I don't want you guys to >> get so far down that it becomes a problem. >> Okay. >> Um but I also don't want you to like poke the bear and get in trouble if it's it's up to you guys if you even want to do anything. >> Yeah. Don't poke the bear.
>> You got your Yes. Take it. Yeah. >> Yeah. You got a yes. >> And we're not here to enforce the zoning code. >> We're not here. >> Carl happens to be really >> I am. No. No. >> Carl is the enforcer. This is just
>> so the BA has the BA has one member who's a member of the zoning or the planning commission that's that's on the B. Yes. Carl. >> And has no role in enforcing the zoning code at all. But just is trying to be a little bit helpful. That's right.
>> So we we try well no we we've been doing um for the last several months the Tuesday after the bar deadline we've uh we present what we've received as applications discuss it with the planning and zoning staff and sort of
say is there any problems here any questions here? Any issues here? And and so there've been a lot of discussions I know about the carport on the side for some time. So I we heard nothing that but I I am I I think Carl's >> there could be an exception to single
family houses that I completely miss because the zoning code is >> so complicated. >> I I do want to get that you know sign off to to >> continue forward. Yeah. Great. >> Um any
>> I don't know thoughts on roofing. I mean the material proposing is it standing seam like the one next door? >> Fantastic. >> I ideally and again with um budget with a budget backup option just asphalt shingle. >> Okay. Sorry. >> But hopefully metal. Yeah.
>> I would encourage like you've shown the architectural shingles as opposed to three tab if you go with asphalt. >> Yeah certainly. And I'm not a fan of the cap on the on the standing seam roof, but this isn't it's not a historic building, so I'm not going to die on that hill.
>> And uh one one of the things in the guidelines is to encourage good stewardship of the Maplewood Cemetery. Um but >> wait, what >> what is that? >> One of the guidelines, but u we put not
applicable. There you go. So, are we raising them? >> You would like to I've never really understood how that might be applied to a a COA on a new dwelling or an alteration >> a joint ad joining properties. It would on 8th Street and Maple. >> Yeah,
>> I'm going to tell parks and they need COAs for new uh >> or if a project came up on the cemetery itself, right? Maybe that would apply. >> Um >> I I just one more comment. Um I live in north downtown but not in an ADC
district. So kind of similar to this. Um not it's we're not even in a conservation district. I'm kind of in a but um there are houses that are about the age of houses on the street. Like mine is exactly the the age of 71 16.
>> Um and I have three carports original to houses going up the street three in a row. And my neighbor just built I mean she renovated a house but it is not recognizable from the original. You know they might have well done but she put a
new carport that is not connected to the house um on her property. And you know frankly I'd rather see a carport than I mean you know certainly than a garage. Um but I I do think that people I mean
owners want to get their cars off the streets. It's, you know, parking's at a premium >> and I don't have any problem with this carport at all. Um, it's a much better solution than an application that we saw last month where we're looking at a garage door, you know, and and with the
setbacks, a garage door that's right on the street, you know, that's just, you know, >> I'd frankly rather see people's junk in their carport cuz it's interesting rather than, you know, an overhead garage door. I'm sorry. Nobody. >> I have a neighbor who who like has all
kinds of interesting things in there. I'm always wondering what's going on in there. Um I mean there are kind of it is a living space I would say. Um a lot like front porches, you know, a lot like you know maybe the Loia or whatever we looked at, but um a screened in porch.
It is a living space to some extent. It it doesn't just contain a car. It'll have lots of items in it. And you know, maybe through your good design, you can you can create storage niches or whatever that you know, but I I that's beyond our purview. Okay.
>> So, I have no personal objection, particularly in a historic conservation district to carports. I think it's a great solution on this one. >> Yeah, people tend to park in carports. Uh they tend to fill their garages with stuff. Um, I will say when I was building and you had something like
this, we almost had a threecar garage with Peters in between and the bet was all right, well, which one are they going to hit first? Um, backing into this thing. So, uh, I would encourage a robust post at that corner. >> Yeah. And I would also say for, you
know, the intention of these owners and probably it's a good matter of public policy that a cover over your car, you know, is helpful. As we just found out three weeks ago, four weeks ago with that storm, >> some people didn't have to spend six hours digging their car out like I did.
>> That was three hours in the sleet. And then when the city plowed against my car, >> you know, then I had to dig it out again with with my ice pick. So I I just don't have an issue with this um at all. So yeah. >> Would you all be comfortable? Um, I
mean, I don't know where your schedule is on this, how quickly you it it hasn't >> it hasn't moved like it's an urgent project, but uh, but I mean it's um, >> as we go forward, uh, I can certainly check with the the shares and see how
they feel about it. Um, unless you all have, you know, really want to see this come back to you formally. Oh, that was the note that you had in the staff report that staff could even with a major review could >> well internally it was in the old
ordinance fairly clearly for conservation districts and it got a little uh it got a little diluted in the current zone. So I'm I'm just using it as if I but I can get direction from the BAR. So I'm seeking that where it had
been something you know could be reviewed by the chair. So >> I think um I would say yes as you know the the applicant has really done a good job showing us the materials they want to use including alternates right um that I think we all find acceptable. I
think that my only thing that I Carl's kind of brought up a few potential zoning questions that may need clarification. I'll just say um and if those result in any major design revisions then I think you should bring it back to us.
>> I think if this thing stays relatively the same in terms of form and massing and and the details we've talked about then I think I'm okay with I would be too. >> Okay. >> Um >> I'll just be in the minority and say just viistically I'd like to see what
>> just maybe by way of information at least from Scott. have one other question. You said this is for an aging in place. Are you making this handicapped accessible? >> That's the goal. As much as as much as we can. >> Universal. Yeah. >> Okay. So, the the front door is going to
be wider than a typical front door. >> Yeah. It'll be at least, you know, 36 in wide. >> Okay. >> And um no steps. >> No steps. >> Yeah. Um, so,
uh, I'll just rattle off sort of like I did with the last applicant. Um, summarize what we talked about hitting the high points. And if folks want to please add in if I missed something or whatnot. So, historic conservation district, um, essentially means we take
a little bit of a lighter touch and focus what's mainly on what's visible from the street. Um, I think this project, uh, has shown is sympathetic with the neighboring house and fits into the district very well. Um, I think there's some support for the carport. We
definitely feel the carport is a better option than a garage. Um, though, as I mentioned, you know, you may want to double check on the zoning, but at the same time, if you've gotten your yes, you might just take that yes. Um the though on the cardboard itself, I think
there's uh some interest in breaking down the side elevation of it either through some additional columns or a screen or a low wall. Just something to kind of break it up a little bit, give some visual separation for the neighboring property looking in. Um also
on the carport, we talked about the materiality of the driveway that perhaps concrete would be more appealing than um asphalt. Certainly concrete floor in the carport itself and preferable to have it go all the way to the street if
possible. Um the siding, the bricks preferred. I think we agree with that. The alternate of the hardy plank is is acceptable. Um we also talked a little bit about exploring um possibly, you know, breaking down the house as it goes further back into the appearance of
additions to to potentially match the the roof line changes. Um, and that that might be a way to uh save some money and achieve the brick on the front portion of the house. Um, also on the carport, the interior, the two walls of the the
carport should match the exterior of the house and so it should read as that's part of the exterior of the house. Um, that catch everything. >> Anything else? >> I think I might be in the minority about uh this coming back to us, though. I
feel like a new house in a a historic conservation district, there's not that many opportunities. >> Sure. >> I mean, I I I think if this were a small addition or something, but this is a whole new house. >> Okay, let's have it come back >> and and we'll have a light touch with it and there's nothing that you're doing
that would suggest otherwise, but I think it's worthwhile. >> It is also visible from two public rights of way. If we think about it, it's also from St. Charles and the other side. So, >> okay. Then I'm I'm happy to ask for it to come back. I'm not gonna fight that too hard. Um I think the applicants done
a really good job. I think hopefully we've given you good feedback. Do you have any other questions for us before we >> um I did have one question. I think it was in the staff notes just the comment about the setback. Um you know we had matched I think basically based on the adjacent house but
>> in reading the comments I was almost wondering if you thought it should be set farther back which which it could be. There was nothing that why we, you know, we were just kind of matching the next door house. But if the whole district has usually like a farther
setback, that's something that we could, you know, probably do if that helped things. >> Uh, yeah, I think it was fine. It's >> fingers. Okay. It's a little short from what the guidelines say, but in the sort of the
the the eclectic nature of of of Martha Jeff, there is it's a very wide range. And I think, you know, the you ranging in the 20s to the 50s and this being at 20 is it and also the grade it's not
this isn't high up or pronounced. It sort of steps down a little. So, I don't think that's a problem at all. Okay, great. And then um just following up on what you were talking about with coming back. So I would bring this
project back again at one more meeting. Um probably as like an action item. Is that it? >> Yeah. >> And then when typically in in the design process is that best to bring back for the second time. >> As much as you've got.
>> So at the end of design >> if possible. Okay. I mean, there's always a little risk of if we want to make changes and you've gone too far, but I I think this is in a pretty good spot >> when you know what the outside's going to look like. >> Yeah. >> We don't need to see the floor plan. The
the schematic um >> that that's up is fine because it gives us a sense for the volumes, but we don't need to see interior detail. >> Okay. >> I do like the Christmas closet though. That's >> that was a very important programmatic
element. We know we're our next B Christmas party. >> That's right. >> By ourselves. >> So great. >> Great. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> What was the name of that f over there
on Hartman's Mill? Why can't I think of the where we found the cemetery in the woods and the >> was the Nemo House? >> Nemo. >> Billy Billy Hunt. >> I went to Billy Hunt. >> Billy Hunt. Yes. >> Billy Hunt. Yes. Yes. >> I went to Burning Man with them. Remember?
You point it out. >> Have you been in it? >> It was my first BA over anything. >> That was that was a that was just the again that goes down in BA or our lure. It was the first time we all got together during co none of us knew exactly how to behave. Um
>> true. >> It was it was like we got out and we were outside and we were somewhere else and seeing people other than our spouses or kids. It really had this it was this amazing feel to it and we were I think we were like sitting in their parking
lot for an hour afterwards chatting, you know, waiting for them to come say, "Are you going to leave?" Um and uh it was uh and that's where uh Billy had an instrument that was a mannequin. >> Oh. Oh god.
>> And James and I walked into the little cottage in the back and the little mannequin sitting there in the shadows. >> It was really creepy. We uh it was a little it was a little weird. We screamed like little girls. >> James and Jody did some
>> demolition explorative investigative probe. >> Then we found a cemetery in the front yard. It was a really but it still is one of the most interesting houses. And I know Bridget and I, you know, we've talked at times like >> what's what's what.
>> Uh no idea. But it's where we had determined through the census you could see where you know every couple of years they had a kid or a grandkid and they were just adding acquiring new things as they went. So you should take a class over there and uh have them explore that
place. >> Um all right so couple things. >> Um do you guys need a break or anything or I don't have >> depends on how long you want to go. I know. >> I know you do, but I've got some >> may need a permanent break. >> All right. So, I found All right, move
on. >> No, it's not that simple. Um, unfortunately. So, um, so first, just >> a couple of updates on things. Um, >> there are some lighting issues on the mall that, um, uh, some of you have
noticed. Carl, I'm surprised you haven't asked me. >> I think I did. Maybe. Okay, you may have. We'll see which ones you're in. So, there's um there was some uplighting installed at the base of the trees last fall >> that my understanding was they were temporary. Um but they've now been
permanently affixed to the um to the light posts. >> So, they can't be knocked over. >> So, they can't be knocked over. Um I And then there are catary lights that have been installed over the um at at the intersections. Um there's there's
support for these at the city manager's office. So I mean they they are they like what they're seeing. Um so there's some discussions I need to have with all right well when you know they can't just have things sometimes go to the you know we don't just get trash cans but we
don't look at lights. So um so I have some some work cut out for me but I've what I've said about the catinary lights is that um I think most importantly that they they follow what we established for the cafe spaces for the catinary lights.
Um, but if they're got to be permanent, um, the comment today was then they should be installed in that way, not look like someone threw Christmas lights on their front porch. I mean, the exact words I use. Um, I'm a little I I I'm not happy with the uplights at the
trees. Um, I particularly if for no other reason than, you know, uplighting is something we try to not have in the city uh to to reduce light pollution. So I'm asking some questions about what exactly you know is how bright are they uh etc. The lights that are within the
tree box ask used to have an uplight element that was eliminated. So as far as a uh and and and Kate was in the meeting yesterday or day before and I was I was waxing very architecturally
and people were kind of just looking at me. I said lighting is part of the design. You know, there is this is a this is a design landscape on the National Register. We can't just go putting in lights here and there because
you know someone parks, right? >> I I'm not pointing my finger at anybody. I'm I'm I'm building bridges. Um but uh I'm let I'm just letting you all know that that I'm I >> and Carl's right. He has asked me um and I wear these. So, I'm going to there'll be some conversations about and I I
think try to get you know going forward some direction on you know from the city manager's office what we we can't just come to the bar intermittently. Um what what did I do? >> Um and now cafe spaces. Um >> you called out Carl, but Carl I think
wanted to comments on the on the lights. um or when you're talking about these um they do get the people move them like I guess they're fixed now but people rotate them. So are they going to be is that going to also be fixed because what ends up happening is you walk down the mall
and someone's got a spotlight and it's shining right in your face and it's blinding. Um the other thing is um I the color um it was cool when they had like the rainbow colors at one point. I think they did that some Christmas two years ago or whatever. Um, but now it's the
standard setting I think is someone's idea of cool white, but it's purple. >> And I don't know if we can just go back to our guidelines of stick with a warm white color. >> Um, warm as in a yellow. >> So that is a the color temperature is a function of our workings now.
>> Yes. >> And so >> these are not in compliance at all. >> And that's where I I've asked for some some information about these. Um the the the other comment I made, I said it's likely the B will ask, well, if you want uplighting, why don't we go you can go back to what had originally been
designed uh and put those back in. But um uh here I'm making a note and I'll check on that color temp. Um the um cafe spaces been a lot of discussions about um how
and when to bring forward uh the requirements uh that that you all worked on a year and a half, two years ago. Um and uh that's been some there's a lot going on that's >> fall 2024. >> Yeah. That's above us about how and when
and who and to what level uh of enforcement. Um but we're expecting this spring uh you'll start to see some um a little more engagement thing. >> Didn't we talk about that and decide it was like if there was a change in
ownership or something? There are things that are within there's there's things within the ordinance that that what we have and it's as we presented to the council when we talked two years ago um or a year ago or December if if a an operator is there and they're continuing
to operate they've got a space they've got stuff out there they've paid their fee and that's the big one they've paid their fee then they have a they have presumably have a COA or we will be giving them on that no fee, but
they may have to remove some things. There may be like, for example, at the west end of the mall, the large trough planters were removed. Uh, so we don't have to say anything, but there's a few things a few places will have to change, but by and large, if it's if it's been
in operation continuously, um, we're not going to make them change too much. the if a new space let's say a new operator comes in new space then they have to get a COA um or if somebody with an existing space or new wants to change something
then they would come in and revise the COA but um we are really going to be spending the next several months letting people know you're good to go except for ABC and so um but that's I
we're not I think the idea is sometime in March to start sort of having conversations with the U uh but an a new a person has been given the job of the the downtown manager and will be taking on some of this this
liaison uh work with the operators. So, we're not, you know, we slogged through that and got it approved by city council. So, we aren't going to bear the brunt of any like variances or are people going
to start bringing us like we'd like a variance on that cafe space ruling or guideline? >> I guess they could >> say that again. Like if someone wanted to request a variance on the cafe space guidelines that we kind of redefined,
>> they would have to apply for a COA >> COA and then it would come to us. >> Right. Right. >> But if they >> But this leazison could maybe hopefully curb that before it gets to us. >> We're we're >> that's the hope that >> that's the goal. >> That makes sense. If someone really
wants to do something, >> then they should come to us, right? Agreed. Agreed. It just it's a it's a function of there's there's actually uh chapter 28 of the code addresses license and or a permit they call it to
operate a cafe in the public right ofway and if you violate certain rules the penalty is to revoke that permit >> but a COA is under chapter 34 of the code and to violate the COA is a zoning violation. So there's we're still sort
of going, all right, well, who's going to tell people what happens if you don't do XYZ? So, >> uh, but we're getting there on those. And I I I do see some light at the end of the tunnel. Um, I just I guess I just hope that there's there's a a gatekeeper, so to speak, where, you
know, we're not getting hit up with like every single vendor wanting one more baker's rack to put plates on or, you know what I mean? Like that could get awesome. >> Yeah. Yeah. that I mean that's where Kate and I serve as that buffer is that uh and by and large you will you will
never see a cafe space COA unless someone wants to do something um and if I think it's just a it's a it's a bridge too far you know may not even bring it to you but great >> you very rarely see those things so um the opportunity we have um if you would
call up the the the fountain >> you made something is it in >> I I added it to the folder And and while I'm she's she's looking that up, anybody do you all have anybody have any expertise, experience, knowledge about Johnson Village? Richard Guy Wilson is
is studying it as a a late 20th century subdivision. And um I don't know, I just throw it out in case you know, you might say, "Hey, I looked at it. I have all the original drawings. >> I walk through there sometimes, but >> I was surprised to find out they have like gas street lighting."
>> They have what? Like apparently the street lights at least at one point there were gas lights. >> It's there are two old street lights down on um if you walk down Parkway. >> Yeah. Parkway gas >> and I don't know the story on there.
There's only two of them but I now that you say it I wonder >> actually beautiful. >> Yeah. Well um >> Mr. Can you please tell me the file location? >> It's in um the February 2026. >> So that's it. If anybody has knowledge
of Johnson Village, um yeah, I saved it as um free the fountains. So, this the opportunity uh that we have um and I know some of you were on the bar the last time Parks and Recre came forward with uh uh a proposal to put
grates in the fountains and um and you all declined to approve that and and I think understandably so. Um as we go into the the 50th um of the mall, we're we're
getting some attention. Um, so yeah, there looks great. >> That looks great. I know. And it gets and it gets better. Um, so, uh, yeah, I thought this is Kate and I, this is our new rallying cry in the office, Free the Fountains, but there is, um,
>> on Q and he's a dancer. Um, but, um, the Sorry, that's an old song. the uh uh city manager's office has uh directed folks at public works to to free the fountains. Um and um the thing I we have
to figure out is they they want it to be offtheshelf solution. Um they um they so it's for example if we have to go find special blocks that with the nubs on them type of thing cuz uh you know so
I was trying to think of ways that um we could make this happen and also get your thoughts on a solution. So I know this is a picture Beth Meyer had given a presentation some time ago. I had never seen those photos. In fact the next two are the same. They're kind of kind of
interesting to see that kid clearly is being injured by this fountain. Um and uh if only he had >> so >> yeah it's uh that then the next one's even where look those people are just they're afraid of the fountain because
it's so dangerous. Uh >> as dangerous as the movable chairs. >> But but the best part Yeah. The best part of this image is the hammock on the far right. >> Yeah. Cut it off a little bit. Yes. >> Yeah. >> Bring it back.
>> Different world. >> Just a different world. Um so where um >> I you know Kate and I go out there sometimes just stare at these things. Um try to say all right how can we do this? >> So So this is the this is the the
fountain at Miller. There are three small fountains. This is the one at Miller. Uh uh the next one is the one down towards Chaps. Yeah. Sorry. >> And uh I'm done. >> I was wondering where that was coming. >> I know. I wanted a I wanted a picture of
a fountain behind the bars. Let me out. Um >> and then the next one is at the Nook. And so there you go. So there's the context. So, taking this image, um the idea and I I I a former uh bar member, we'll leave
anonymous for now, uh and I were chatting the other day and I said, "How would you, you know, what's a way to solve this without um we need to have around the perimeter of a you need to have 24 in of a warning strip." M
>> and so when I spoke with the folks at public works um >> their idea was to use the those >> tactile papers >> those knob the concrete thing I'm like no and in fact these are these are 12 in x 12 in 24 in granite blocks. So I said
that that's I said I'd rather you brick them over than we start just tearing out some of this fabric. And the response was, "Well, we we have the concrete pieces. We can't afford to go get granite with the nubs cut into them."
And so, uh, Mr. Gaspier pointed out to me the other day. He said, "Well, they make these, go to the next slide real quick. They make these widgets that you can or bore holes in paving stones and install them." So, go back. So, that's solved. That's all that
one thing was saying, all right, we can leave this band of granite in place, but then I still need the additional 12 in. Uh, and they're getting ready to do work at the trash cans. Yes, sir. >> Question. So,
do we have to have the tactile pavers the full 24 in? >> That's my That's my understanding. >> So, who says what what is where is that coming from? Um, >> so what I was going to propose was leave the granite curb as is and then surround
it with the tactile gray pa >> might be a compromise. >> And that's a question. >> I'd rather do that than add those things like drilling into the granite kind of is compromising the granite itself. And it's a lot and I doubt it's I that's probably pretty expensive.
>> You probably should break apart. Well, >> um, okay. Just trying to offer ideas of compromise to where we want to get the fountains open. >> Right. One of my questions is what is that? And where I've looked it up
everywhere I've seen it's a 24 in minimum here. Go back. >> Is that Lawrence Halprin or who is standing >> Mr. Halpin? I tried to get him thinking but I didn't. >> So is that an ADA thing? Oh, >> so I >> it's what I'm being told and it's also
when I, you know, go on, you know, and look up ADA warning strip, it's consistently 24 in with the uh >> rubble strip type of >> tactiles. Yeah. >> Truncated dome is >> um and of a lighter color. So,
I I got enthused this morning and I came I came in I had a really bad day yesterday, but I came in today really enthused cuz I think I think we can do this. So, it's and I I respect what you're saying and I can talk to them about it. Um it if it could be 12 in I
agree it would be do it this way. I hate those concrete things but what's your thought on that? But could you put in Brooklyn perhaps? They're supposed to make bows. >> They have to be a different color. >> They have to be that the different
>> Oh, I see. And were the grapes put there as a safety railings? >> The railings. >> The railings sort of. >> Well, you saw they never used to have anything there. >> Um and then we >> um put up the traffic enclosures
for several years. There people don't even know there were fountains down there. They have the those jersey barriers around them. We >> parks and rack wanted to put down metal grates that the water would go through so you could almost walk across them. >> Um the B felt that that was over the top
and I and I'll put right. He said, "I designed water features all over the world and we don't hide them behind barriers." So you you can have a barrierfree um so the B felt that that was just too
much. Um and then uh the idea did come back to me and said can we put up these cafe space barriers? I said if it opens up those fountains cuz the next step was remove the fountains all together brick them over and we get more cafe space. So
this was that compromise, but it >> and the fountains were helping to originally >> and so the the I mean it's ironic how we we've gotten to the there are some voices that just they just be rid of these things, you know, I
don't want to maintain them. I don't want people fall in them and sue us. We could rent those as cafe spaces. And this is what, you know, this is what Halpern intended. And this is an opportunity to do that. >> Um go now to the
>> So I mean I so I just want to add that uh if even if ADA code requires 24 in if we came up with a solution that was in the spirit of the code I think this is a national historic landmark should weigh into that. I would if if you all are
willing to um examine that and offer some suggestions. I um my my hold on this one is rather tenuous. I probably spent more time today thinking
about it than uh I should have. So I'm not asking for free service, but if you have ideas um otherwise >> we just gave you one. >> What's that? >> I mean we just gave you one. Yeah, just sort of saying inviting your ideas. >> Backing off of it a little bit
>> and in what manner is in a people getting hurt? >> Uh there have been concerns. So and and I and what what I have to accept as staff is that the city's concern is that these are present a potential liability
and here's what must be done. And you know, you know, we learned with the grades that that, you know, that that's where their position is. And and so I can't uh I mean, unless somebody really had something rock solid to say here is proof, this is the current uh thingy. So
that's why I'm offering it as uh it is an opportunity and I know it I'm trying to be a little humorous with free the fountains, but this is this is an opportunity to remove the barriers at least on those. So, these are good ideas and I can and and I know public works is is enthused to make it happen.
>> So, circling back to where you first started that the city manager gave direction to free the fountains. >> What did the city manager mean by that? They say go ahead and take the barriers down and fire them back up or >> Yes. Uh
>> but but also trying to kind of >> not try meet >> Okay. So we do need to do some >> if you can if you can effectively install the necessary or necessary warning barrier strip
>> then you can take down the chains and you can remove the the barriers. If if that can't be accomplished then um I mean there is the idea of the the grates putting the grates back in which you all rejected. uh what I have instructed
people on that is that if council feels strongly about the grades they can instruct those go in I mean they are ultimately the decider on these things so you know but that you all had rejected those the so I think there's a there's an approachable solution and I
was worried that the adding a 24-in band however it's accomplished would start to interfere with too many things but it actually fits and in fact K you go back and some of the brick work is so lousy um I I I gladly um myth that's
embarrassing. >> I also think that like this this is a good example of where >> yes, we may have to make some compromises on the original design intent, but the overriding and overarching goal of the original design was to have these water features be accessible by the public. And so making
that concession to achieve that goal is worth it. >> Exactly. And that and that's where I am. And I know, you know, there might there's going to be differences of opinion on that, but I think that the um these things being locked up is is it's it's it's unfortunate. Anything we can
do to do take that step. central place is a little more problematic and and the reason being and I and I don't know how to solve it but you you can fix it up. Um, so you've got there's a and this is a sailor a stacked sailor. Uh, of course
at the edge. Um, to me this series of brick steps is is part of the design. I I said that shouldn't be messed with that shouldn't be we should be removing that to put it in this tactile. >> Is that original material?
>> Yes, those are. Yeah. But what happens is once you then step outside of this band and this all you can see the sides go to the next slide. So you can see the this ledge that surrounds everything. >> It's really
>> but like on one side you've got a step you've got this a drain on the mall side you know you've got a runel there's a a pump mechanism out there. So, as you step away from the pool, um,
there's space to put that band, but I don't know how far, you know, what's that's one of the things I need to ask like if it has to be immediately adjacent to it. Do we sacrifice that that top ledge or
um but otherwise we have to step out further back and are we going too far away? Um, >> is the city >> lot going on there? okay with the idea of if we do some sort of detectable warning they would get rid of the ballers and chains around the big fountain. >> That's that's the plan. And I've said
I'm not really concerned about the ballards, but if we could get the chains down. Now, it may even be that um we only take down two sides of the chains. I I I try. >> Are they going to let people walk down the steps, put their feet in the water? >> That is the goal. Yes. And and and to
have this done this summer for the 50th. So, um, so they said it's an opportunity, but I'm at the same time, uh, and and folks I'm working with in public works, they they acknowledge, they said, "Look, the BA has its job to do and and and
they want you to do it." And I I've said, you know, when I have to turn around to a private property owner and say, "No, you can't do this." Puts me in a tough spot to then say, "Well, yeah, but that's the city, so it's okay." So, I I want you, you know, stay true to to
your um to your charge. Um I'm not asking you to compromise. And I I maybe that's some of what I'm saying here is I don't I don't know the answer to these questions, but I I have been saying >> nice to have a land sequence of brick uh
steps is critical. So, I'm sorry. >> No, I said it'd be nice to have a landscape architect on the B. >> I know. >> I know a guy. >> Not even just on the bar. I mean, isn't this something that the city would hire a landscape architect to do? >> Yeah, but it still would come to the board of architectural review. So, I'm
trying to um Yes, I'm exploiting your presence and enthusiasm to free the fountains. I will say that shamelessly. Um >> and I I just know that this has to be the goal is an offtheshelf solution. And so, I just wanted to share with you where I was. You've already had some
good ideas that I can take back. And you know, >> and unfortunately the brick paving itself isn't exactly off the shelf, right? They're pretty custom sizes. >> 14 in. They're >> but presumably you'd be getting enough of them or whatever it might be. Um
>> I mean it's already it's so much going on out there. You you stand in one spot and you're I can't I don't think Halurn envisioned it being so noisy. Um, and but it's because we're the space that's
available for you to look at is so encroached on. You're not looking at this large space. You're you're you're standing in this corner and seeing all these things. Uh, but it really is a busy place relative to the brick and all the things going on. And and I like so I
so often want to go out there and just start if a cafe space hasn't been used for a month, I want to >> Yes. >> throw in the truck and move it. Um but um but yes there this is our opportunity to free the fountains um and a good point about the uh
you know the adding those things. >> See if I mean let's just sort of if that's what we have to do to get it okay but it seems like that potentially be very co costly to buy a bunch of those presumably stainless steel nubs and drill them into all that granite around
each of the fountains. Yeah, they are spaced apparently um a minimum of um 1.6 in and a maximum of 2.4 in apart. >> Well, there's not much granite left. >> Jeff, is it does it have to be truncated
domes? Is Is that the required? >> It it has to meet whatever the the >> tactile thing visual impairment. >> If you use a detectable warning surface, it's got to be those. >> I'm just wondering if there are other options like >> Oh, yeah. There's those brilliant yellow mats that we can glue out.
>> Yeah. And and papavers too, right? And thin papavers. >> At UVA, we did a project on McCormack Road where we replace the sidewalk and we we were able to use the their bricks, the brick colored with the truncated domes. Now granted, that was the university's building official, and I
think they've now since gone to the yellow, but um it was a good >> It wasn't as visually we we had a curve that kind of came in front that gave your the color change. mentioned here. I mean, if it were if it were just one course of tactile, it would fit. But I I
don't I don't have any room. And this is the same situation for the other two fountains. There's just if if I if I can't if this must be a tactile surface >> and and these, like I said, these are big blocks. I can't just pull these out down.
>> So, it's a dent if you do, dent if you don't. But if if it is possible to say, you know, a 12-in strip uh and also in combination with that lighter colored material, >> that would be nice. >> That might do we then on a hot day in
the summer, the kids are going to go jump in the fountains. >> Why not? I remember when they did in the '9s, the dogs, too. >> Well, what that's what it's for. >> Yeah. I mean, at least hands, you know. >> I Dogs would go in there and cool off and kids too. I
I put my feet in there, too. >> I've left a few concerts where people are in the fountains after the concerts, >> right? So, so I'm sure that's what we want. >> Thank you. Good. This is And um hopefully we'll we'll be continue to have you'll hear more about this. Uh and
folks from public works, I invited them to come tonight. They they want to they want to do some more research on their end. But yeah, they very much want to find a solution. But the, you know, I'm not saying it's the rule, but the it really has to be off the shelf. We
cannot go looking for special order something or other. It's it's >> the and the water is nonable >> or depends >> how thirsty you are. Yeah. It it's I mean uh
>> heavily chlorine treated, isn't it? >> Yeah. It's not city water. >> I I don't ask. Yeah. I I don't know. It's might be more treated than the regular city. >> I mean, there's a science. >> Drink at your own risk. Jerry, >> they do treat it just cuz people have asked, but I don't know >> how. >> I mean, the only other thought I have is
is are there examples of similar fountains in other cities that have this challenge that we could look to as a press? >> And actually, yes. Um, so I looked up because we always had the image of um Halpern's well in Portland, they've got that
>> the big one. They are currently >> barrier >> really evaluating the the it's not and we use I'm using the wrong word saying ADA accessibility. It's not that they have to be ask it has to be that someone who is is uh uh blind visually impaired
or can know that that is thing is there. Um and that um a very famous water feature in that place in Portland is it just so happens there they're evaluating this exact thing there. So >> yeah,
>> it's it's you know it's a sign of the times and um but I said we do have the enthusiasm to get it done if we can if we can do it. Um, I know I I was not that opposed to the to the great because
at least it opened them up, but um >> All right. Thank you very much. >> Okay, >> great. >> I move we adjourn. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I So, off the record, Clint, what's happening with