So, >> what a seal of >> we feel like we're in the airport. >> Just in case. Next step is just >> interest samples. What are we waiting for exactly?
I guess >> will be just a moment everybody. We're just waiting on staff to begin the >> the meeting. >> Sorry about the delay. >> Yeah, we'll give him another few minutes.
>> They're present participating. Do they need to know anything? They can share the screen from here. >> But nobody requested >> that's
[Music] got. >> So when we get to that, >> so that presentation I shared with communications so they are prepared to have that ready to go and cl Oh, okay. We can just
>> Yeah, he's already prepped that >> three of us. >> Three of us. >> We ready, Jeff? >> Hi. >> Okay. Welcome everybody to this regular monthly meeting of the Charlottesville Board of Architectural Review. Staff
will introduce each item followed by the applicant's presentation which should not exceed 10 minutes. The chair will then ask for questions from the public followed by questions from the BA. After questions are closed, the chair will ask
for comments from the public. For each application, members of the public are each allowed three minutes to ask questions and three minutes to offer comments. Speakers shall identify themselves and provide their address. Comments should be limited to the BAR's
perview, that is regarding only the exterior aspects of a project. Following the BAR's discussion, and prior to taking action, the applicant will have up to three minutes to respond. So um first um
uh part of the agenda here is matters from the public not on the agenda or um on the consent agenda. Are there any matters from the public not on the agenda? >> Yes. >> I just really want
>> Sorry. Could you uh state your name and address? My name is Isis and I live on Green Street in Belmont. Um, I wanted to voice my support for bike bill, which you'll talk about later, and also for the residents of West Haven and tent the page, none of which want their neighborhoods gentrified by rich college
students. We don't need more housing that most students can't even afford, and we certainly don't need it in a location that would cast a shadow over black and brown communities that the city already has a long history of marginalizing. And city council has continued to say that zoning needs to be changed. That should be a priority. But in the meantime, anyone with any ability
to stop or even just stall these luxury student housings from being built has a moral obligation to do so. And by that, I mean you. Thank you. >> Thank you, Isis. >> Anybody else? Yes, sir. Please come up
and state your name and address. >> My name is James Snyder. My wife and I own a a house in uh at 206B Fifth Street uh Southwest in the Field neighborhood. It's a one of the Oaklan Cottage
condominiums. And uh I'm here to uh talk to you about uh what I think is an emergency situation. the uh the zoning ordinance that was put in place which was supposed to create affordable housing in the neighborhoods instead has dumped a huge
byite uh set of developments in two of the most fragile neighborhoods with no with no review and very little that anyone can do about it. And so I recommend I've presented this to council and I'll give you copies that the city and the city council and the planning
commission uh do a u emergency u ordinance to protect the fill 10th and page and west haven neighborhoods is suspending the ordinance in those areas including the development areas so we
can have two years to actually do planning. Clearly there was no planning done or discussion done with you all about which historic properties might be upzzoned like our houses which are missing middle are zoned for seven stories. The weight house which is
directly adjacent to a case you're going to hear about probably one of the most important historic houses in the area is zoned to seven stories. You all should not be burdened with a with bad planning and nobody talking to you about historic properties getting reszoned to be redeveloped at ridiculous
heights. So this does get to the point of acknowledging the history displacement and there are abilities within the state code to um give the city authority to regulate these properties and that's included in this
resolution. I've also got maps of the Fville area which also shows the area along West Main Street if Fville West Haven and Tenth and Page and the areas in between them are suspended for
two years so we can have time to actually do planning and talk to the community who is not talked to. Then you can do your job and maybe give advice on properties how they ought to be zoned. You shouldn't be having to deal with historic properties of value being zoned to seven stories or missing middle
housing like ours being zoned to seven stories. And we need your support, frankly, to the planning commission and the city council to zone these things back to a reasonable level. 1,600 units in the poorest, most fragile neighborhoods in the city, while in theory you're trying to do good with,
you know, affordable housing in the rest of the community, that's a bad plan. You got bad advice from your from your consultants. It's bad zoning and you all need to be able to have take a break as a city and do planning with these communities. So, I'm happy to pass these
on to you. Thank you. >> Thank you, James. We appreciate uh your input and your um resolutions you're passing around. I'm just going to ask for the sake of um allowing us to conduct our um um immediate matters at
hand. Uh, anybody else that has comments on the Seventh Street project to hold, we're going to have a um discussion period or we're going to allow um public comments for that project um uh when the project is presented. Um but if anybody
else has um other matters um not on the agenda, you're welcome to come up. And Mr. Chair, if I could just offer the the discussion on Seventh Street is just a preliminary kind of a discussion of of of where things are with u the project.
Uh you all are not taking any action. You're not voting on it. Um correct. >> I don't know if the result of tonight's discussion will even be a formal application, but it's not before you to to uh vote it up or down. >> Thank you, Mr. Werner.
Okay. So, let's move to the consent agenda. Um, is anybody on the board? Um, >> I'll move to approve the consent agenda. >> Okay. >> Second. >> All those in favor say I.
>> I. >> Great. And just to clarify, there's you're good to go with the uh modified artwork as shown on um I'm sorry on 14th Street. >> Yep. >> So, yeah. Do we need to say anything
specific about >> then the motion that is uh the draft motion that's in the staff report will be was adopted with the consent agenda. So, >> Okay. All right. Thank you. >> Yep. >> So, now we're on to the new items. Um, first up on the agenda is 1409
University A. So, this is not an unusual one, but one you all don't typically see. It involves signs. Um, this is 1409 University Avenue. the the business uh there is u
um insomnia cookies and uh they have are within the corner ADC district um and because our design guidelines for signage uh well let me take a step back all commercial signage
in the city requires a signed permit uh typically zoning reviews those and if it's outside of district we don't see it when it's within a design control district. Uh we look at it and apply the design guidelines and 99.99%
of the time we um are the code allows us to review them on your behalf. However, when something and what we do is say does this meet the design guidelines, yes or no. When something exceeds what's proposed in the guidelines, um then the option is to
bring it to you all for a decision. similar to what we did with grid uh a couple of months ago. So, the request here is um to install a um projecting
sign uh a blade sign above the uh the awning that you see there, that purple awning to the to the left of of the Z. And um they've got back in 2015
um Mayor Joy had worked with them and approved a signage package and uh uh that was all installed. Now with the this sign and there it is. you can see at the top left um is
it exceeds the number of signs that that are allowed and and per or recommended per our design guidelines of two building signs per business. Um, so now we're not going to get into the details of what's on the windows because uh
there's a there are signs adhere to the interior of the window that had under the previous ordinance if it was inside or just inside the glass was not considered a sign. So the purpose here is not get into numbers but to put that blade sign up there exceeds the two
signs uh that we recommend within a design control district. Uh my recommendation to you all is that the the corner is somewhat different from downtown and West Main. Um and you see there are blade signs there. There's a
lot of signs on the corner and on the buildings and and projecting signs over the entrances is not unusual. So, I think that given the circumstances of the location, uh, and given that the other signs are not on the building, but the primarily on the window, uh, we
don't have a problem with you all approving the request. >> Thank you, Mr. Warner. >> Is there an applicant somewhere out there that would like to talk on this project? Uh, do we have any questions from the
public? >> Is the applicant online by any chance? >> Okay. >> No applicant. >> So, can we get uh questions from the public? Anybody online? Weighing in.
Anybody other? >> Yeah. >> Questions from the board? >> I have a question. Is there any illumination on this sign? No. >> And not from the inside either. >> Uh, this sign will be above and there's not
>> it won't be internally illuminated. >> Oh, I'm sorry. No. Okay. >> And then um they've also offered this is the deal that we liked. There's a lot of wire and conduit on the facade and uh all that will be cleaned up. >> I'm sorry. And there's also the sign on
the uh the awning front, the the text on the awning, but no, this not illuminated. >> Okay. And there's so there's three signs essentially. >> Well, depend let's not get into the definition of signs. It gets a little clunky. Uh suffices to say that this is
allowed by zoning by the sign rags. It's not recommended for the design guidelines. >> Other questions from the board? >> Okay. >> I actually for I do have one. So, we're talking about the round blade thing,
right? That would be perpendicular to the building. >> Why does it appear? And I guess this is a handdrawn thing. I'm not sure. Was it submitted from by the >> This graphic that I'm looking at that the the blade only looks like about half
of the height that's shown. So I don't understand that >> size or location or >> what's I guess why did why are we seeing that drawn line above the
the the the the height of the building. What what is that? >> That's the they're showing a center line on the it's centered on the facility that but >> it's a dimension string. So, it's showing it's centered between >> That's all, >> but that's not the height. >> No.
>> And do we have specifics on Yeah, we do have specifics on the dimensions of this sign, right? >> Yeah. It's just to the right of that. >> Yeah. Got it. >> Basically 2 feet by two feet. >> Yeah. Which is not actually that big. >> I have an issue if it covered up any,
>> you know, of the architectural features of this building and it doesn't. So, I'm in favor of it. >> Well, in that in that case, let's move to >> You have another question. >> No, no, I thought we were on a comment. Sorry. Sorry.
>> Yeah, let's move on the comments. Go ahead. Sorry. >> Go ahead, Mr. Schwarz. >> Just one quick comment is the the attachment. I would say the attachment point should be through the mortar joints and not through the brick. I didn't notice that in the conditions, but I'd like to add that. >> Add that to the motion. Oh,
>> anybody else? Mr. Rosenthal? No. >> Okay. Would somebody like to make a motion? >> Is it in here? >> I'll make a motion. Um, having considered the standards set forth in the city code, including the ADC district design guidelines, I moved
to find the proposed blade sign at 1409 University Avenue satisfies the bar's criteria and is compatible with this property and other properties in the ADC district. and that the B approves the application as submitted with the following conditions. Unnecessary wires, conduit or cables will be removed from the storefront facade. Um, excluding
removal, any alterations to the existing signage and/or decorative graphics per the current photo, including the open sign will require a new sign permit and/or COA. And uh, the attachment points for this new blade sign uh, should be through the um, the mortar
joints in the masonry and not through the brick itself. >> Mr. Schwarz, can I offer one additional is that uh it will be installed as indicated on the drawing because I do uh you see the potential for them elevating this thing higher up. Um so I think we
should stipulate that. >> Okay. >> And that the um the blade sign will be installed as indicated in the uh the graphics provided to us. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Do I hear a second? >> Second.
>> Let's take a vote. Mr. Rosenthal. >> Yes. >> Mr. Schwarz, >> yes. >> Miss Lewis, >> I vote yes as well. >> All right. So, now that you voted, Kate, put that image back up. So, signs are going to be something we're going to have to discuss
also with our guidelines update and we've been we're working on organizing it and uh I'll bring you guys into the loop at some point because a lot of complicated questions. But for example, on signs, just one of the things that we're wrangling with, if you notice in the
upper sign there, you see u um I thought it was a a moon. It's a halfeaten cookie. So you wasn't really paying attention, but you see the illuminated sign inside the glass has open. Um under the old ordinance, that's not a sign.
So we're going to have to go through and say, "All right, what is this called in the sign rags? what's it called in our guidelines? Uh, in fact, we have signs in the sign ordinance that use terms we don't use in the design guidelines. So,
we're trying to that's one more thing on our to-do list of trying to get the the the two documents talking to each other. And we know we might have to modify the guidelines a bit, but we're still trying to well find the time to do that. But that just went I didn't want to get into
it earlier, but so yes, it is three signs, four signs. Well, is that illuminated sign a sign? You know, if it's >> basically anything visible um through the glass or on the glass >> if it's in the old rags, if it was inside the glass but 6 in
away from it, it wasn't a sign. But now we've got some dimensions to it. Um the uh zoning folks never used to they anything was on the door they didn't consider a sign. Well, so that's that was one of my questions I was looking at
with K. What's this on the door? Like, so we have some work to do, >> but it's required, >> right? >> Yes, sir. >> Um, do I remember correctly that when the um signage ordinance was approved as part of the new zoning code that it was there wasn't a lot of time to review it?
Like it was always very much in draft form until the end. Um, and the comment >> point of that question would be um is there a way that maybe the BA could offer some input on the signage ordinance? We are working towards that. >> Okay.
>> We are um we had a wonderful intern a year ago went through and compared them. >> Unfortunately, she saved it in a document at like eight font. So, I'm not sure, but we have the basis to work on it, but you know, as you know, we've
been trying to work on the guidelines update for some time. But we're um um I'm I'm I'm careful what I throw your way and I think we'll have to make a determination of um whether some of that will have to go to a consultant or not when we look at the guidelines. So uh that I just wanted to just let you know
I'm not wasn't trying to gloss over the questions about signs, but this one's a little bit it was more important if are you all okay with this blade sign and you you are. So, I appreciate the >> stay tuned for the sign the rest of the story. All right.
>> Appreciate the background and we look forward to the definition of what is a sign >> and where and when. All right. Um, okay. Thank you all. Next up. >> Next up, >> I don't have my Which one's next? >> 1331 West Main.
>> The painted storefront brick. >> The fig. >> Yep. >> Okay. So, um you >> I'm not used to sitting up here, but um this is a COA request to um paint the exterior uh of this uh circa 1960s
probably 1965 building on West Main. It is it's in the West Main ADC district, although I I I typically kind of think of this as the corner. Um and in that regard I also talk about in the staff report the context in which I looked at
it. But uh so originally uh for the old maps this was a vacant lot and at some point in time in the 20s uh this um trolley car someone reports it as a a former railroad car. I don't think it is. I'm not sure what it is but it's a
uh uh uh sort of a mobile place. And I know that the last meeting a couple years ago was a lengthy discussion. Everybody was remembering uh that you could get like a some what was the special thing that you could get here? The the ice cream sandwich on a donut,
you know. >> Yeah. My aunt and uncle who were here and my uncle was at UVA in the 60s. That's the first thing. Oh, I remember that place. So, it's uh and then in in ' 65 that was removed and replaced with the structure that you see on the right.
um and continued uh to be used as university diner and I think it's been a couple things uh in recent memory. Uh some years ago the BAR approved the um there's that decorative uh masonry on the exterior of the entrance. When I
refer to the entrance I'm talking about that piece that's protruding out on the right hand side uh that covered with a cement board and and has been painted. Uh the request that's before you now is to paint the unpainted brick on the building and to paint the wall. We had a
discussion back in 2021 and uh the BA had it sort of a hung jury on it. It didn't it was a four or four vote. So it wasn't an approval. It wasn't a denial. Uh and the applicant deferred it. But uh that's passed. This
is now a new application. So we're not picking up where the last one left off. the um the the applicants offered three color palette schemes and as you know I'm I you know I typically can review if
this were a painted building I'd review the colors and approve them myself but so I I unless you all feel strongly about the the a proposed color scheme the question really is whether or not to allow uh the building to be the unpainted brick to be painted and with
that was also a request to paint the um uh the metal frame of the storefront and the the entrance. Um I did a little homework on that and it can be done. If it's done right, the paint will adhere. Um I think that was probably the thing
is I would be concerned have the least longevity be. But if you do it right, if it's prepped white, right, you can uh paint the anodized metal uh frames. the um I think the painting of the wall and I included the um minutes
from the last time uh some really good points on what painting would allow uh and Breck even said it would allow features of the building to be you know more easily read. So I'm I I have no problem with the painting of the wall
and uh uh particularly if it gets that wall repaired and and um now if they painted and haven't done that that'll be a problem. Um, I'm as far as painting the unpainted brick and the side of that building is is painted. So, if you go
around that corner, um, there's paint on that masonry wall. So, you're really talking about those this area of exposed brick on that front elevation. Um, lay it out in the report. It's sort of two ways to look at it. One, it's an interesting uh the brick coursing. It's
a long uh slender brick. Um it's uh I think and it was pointed out last time that the the the coursing of the brick in and of itself is a is a nice feature. There also some of the comments the B made that uh really the feature of this building is is the window and the and
the the masonry around it is sort of the you know playing second fiddle to that. So there's some thought to that. I think another point that you all made uh several years ago that resonated was this is a non-contributing structure and um I think this goes to a conversation again we're going to have as we move
forward on the guidelines on a lot of things of when you have what's considered a non-contributing structure and to you all in the audience when something is determined to be non-contributing the B will still evaluate any alterations and changes but the owner of this building could have it
knocked down and it would not require BAR approval. So, um, so we're discussing what would can or can't be done to this building, but if they were to knock it down, they would not have to come to the B to get approval for that. So, um, it's
uh I I have no problem with it. This is not um I know we don't like to paint brick, but that's traditionally been uh one not reversible, but also if this were a a 1910 building or an 1890 building, I would adamantly say we can't
paint it. But this is a more or less contemporary, at least contemporary to me. And um so I think there are paints that can be used. So that's where I stand and my recommendation I think is is laid out in here with some options. So do you have any questions for me? Yeah. You said it's non-contributing.
>> I believe so. Did I say it's contributing? >> The staff reports is contributing. >> Uh, >> you say non-contributing. >> Why do I think? >> Look, >> now I have to think. Now my brain hurts. >> The maps in our binders.
>> Yeah, Matt. Yes. Why did I Because there was a com There was a comment in the >> There's a list on >> Well, hey, you know what? It's contributing. So, there you go. >> Okay. Um, I didn't think it was. >> I Some of us last time may have said it maybe didn't need to be.
>> Oh, you know, it's not in the I'm sorry. You're right. It's not in the comment that was made last time is it's not contributing to the West Main Historic District on the National Register. They didn't include that, but we did include it as a That's where I >> Okay. >> Yeah. So, it's uh it's on the local
locally designated. So, they can't knock it down without your approval, >> but it is not on the National Register District as contributing. It's good to know. >> Carl keeps me. >> Do we have an applicant? >> Do we have an applicant out there? >> Yes. >> Please come to the microphone and state
your name and address. >> Good evening. Uh name is Joseph. Um you can still get the grill. Did you know that we kept those? >> That's why all the alumni come in right now. They see the sign and they're happier than anything. They see the grill strip and it's also priceless. So
you know doing some marketing here. So >> u do you have any questions for me um regarding this building? The only the only reason why we want to do this is if you look at the at the bricks somebody previously already did some kind of white wash on it. Um the bricks unit
work. We have no issues with that. We're going to fix all those bricks and use proper paint to bring it up to be nice. But right now, if you look at the bricks, they're not bricks. They all like just white polish, red. You're going to see a lot of spots around the building. It's not presentable to us.
Um, so we just want to make sure clean it up nicely. Uh, get rid some of those uh flower pots and come up with something else nicer and just make a nice clean look. Uh, that will even attract more people from, you know, you can pass by this building, you're not
going to even see it if there's no sign, anything. So, so easy. Are there any questions from the public? Not this questions from the board. I have a question. Um I think I know the answer to this. The you've got some renderings with the different color
schemes on one of these sheets and um it looks like it's just someone did a 3D model and maybe wasn't super careful with it. But are you intending to modify the brick like add like the brick banding the brick piece to the left of the windows is a lot thicker looking in
these renderings? >> I had the same question. >> Um are you adding brick or is >> this is a 3D. So the the thicker brick that's on top right now. If you look on the right side, which you're not going to see it here, there's a flower pot. We remove that flower pot and there's about
seven bricks that missing. Mhm. >> So, we're going to have to add those bricks to it or just leave it and keep it. You know, >> I guess I'm talking about to the left of the window. There's a vertical piece >> to the left. Nothing will be done. Nothing will be added to it. But I know on the right side once you remove the pot, there's
>> Go to the um >> It looks wider in >> Go to the >> Oh, that Yeah. No, nothing. No. Yeah. >> Okay. It's just that you see underneath there's a lot of white and it's like somebody just saw the paint. But we would we would basically just fix the bricks, make sure that it looks
really nice when you paint it. You guys know when you put the paint on, it just sucks it in and there's holes. So, that's not going to happen. We're just going to fill everything, make sure it's presentable, and then >> do proper primer and painting and all this stuff. >> Along the same lines, I didn't notice the the wall uh change of dimension.
But, um I did notice the the front wall, the landscape wall. Um the existing is on three levels and you're showing it as one um level. So are you planning on rebuilding that at all or >> No. And I'm sorry I'm interrupting. I I
really I tried to emphasize these were just conceptual for the color palette. Okay. >> Uh for example, the band across the top there uh that that's at an angle on the that's the garage to the back that when they did the whatever paint thing on the
web page, it captured that. So look at these singularly for uh color palette only. Uh and then refer to the my other drawing with lots of arrows for what is and will not be painted. So sorry to interrupt, but yeah, just don't don't
get bogged down in the details on these. >> I guess I had another question just about the the glass. You're keeping the glass as is. >> The glass will be kept. We're gonna try to paint if you guys approve the uh frame of the window. If not, we're going to try to try replacing it at some
point. Um pro painting would it's going to work because you already got the estimates and we know it's going to work. It's going to be black solid. It's going to be nice. Um and it's going to be upkept pretty much. So, >> and will the same color paint wrap the
building and go down that side? So on the other side, >> would this would this be the same as this? >> It can be. That's a center block. Um, we're trying not to put white around. If if it looks nice down the road, we can, but usually you have a lot of people standing around putting their feet. It's
going to get a little dirtier, but it shouldn't be a problem. It's only center block around. There's no bricks around. Those are the only bricks up front that you see. There's no bricks nowhere else. The entryway also is cinder block >> where you have your sign the the door
vestibule that's that's cinder block. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> I think it's something else. I don't >> It's been covered with a >> Yeah, it's already been approved. Yeah. Yeah. >> Oh, >> yeah. We use something different. It's a cement. >> It's a kind of a stylized cinder block.
It's in the older photos, but it was covered up with a cement board. >> Okay. rec recently. >> Yeah. >> Are are the three colors that we were presented with and I can ask Jeff this because he did them. Is are we supposed to choose between them or is that just a
palette that you would like or do you have a preference between the three? So right now what we have is the right side but the the third one would be ideal because the right side is already painted and it's it's approved and grayish or grayish. So we would basically just do the white bricks to
that and then we will refresh the gray. It's the same color just to make it new. >> So you you like that? >> I like the last one here. >> Okay. I didn't prepare those. So they provide >> that's all from us. Yeah. >> I didn't know. >> Yeah. >> Sorry. the there was a part of your report that
said the staff's staff assembled it. So I didn't know whether you had done them as you have in the past >> for the applicant or not. >> Yeah. >> I didn't know what else to call it other than I assembled a bunch of drawings and images.
>> Any other questions about comments from the public? Comments from the board. And for clarity, the signage is not included. Again, this there conceptually, so this is just fix the brick, paint the brick, and paint the uh
unpainted uh metal. >> Did you want to go? >> Yeah. Like like I I'll just say like three years ago, I'm in favor of this. Um I think Mr. Schwarz was at that time, too. I think we had a longer discussion and other members that had some heartburn about painting the the brick
and there, you know, there was there's really not a whole lot of brick on this facade anymore, but um I'm in favor of it. I'm ready for a motion if there are no other comments, >> please. >> Okay. >> Um sorry, >> I was just going to say I I'd actually be okay with any of the three color schemes and letting the applicant work
with Jeff on that. >> Thank you. >> That's what I was sorry. >> My motion. Note, having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including the ADC district design guidelines, I move to find the proposed painting at 1331 West Main Street, satisfies the B's criterion is
compatible with this property and other properties in the ADC District, and the BAR approves, the application is submitted with the following conditions. That any brick or mortar be repaired and repointed prior to painting, the paint be appropriate um for application to
unpainted brick. um where where it's currently unpainted. Prior to painting the metal storefront, an entrance or frame, um the metal will be appropriately cleaned and primed um to asssure a quality finish and that we would be supportive of any of
the three color schemes. >> Okay. >> That you wish. Yeah, >> I second. And let's take a vote. >> Mr. Rosenthal, >> yes. >> Mr. Schwarz, >> yes. >> Miss Lewis, >> I. >> Mr. Bod, >> yes.
And I also am Yes. >> All right. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Excellent. Okay. Next up, um, is a request for 530 East Main Street.
So, that's just across the mall here. Um, this one was an interesting one. It involves a fence and our new ordinance. And Andrea, you can tell you all about how she's become an expert on designing a fence and getting special approvals.
Uh it's uh something simple proof that something simple can be complicated unfortunately. But this building is um um again directly across the street of the mall. the uh it had been originally built in 1910 and then was added on to
in the 50s and then in the 80s the um the multi-story building that you see there uh actually that's from Water Street looking west. So, portions were kept, the upper stories were dropped,
and then the brick building that's out there now uh was built and incorporating a courtyard uh that's accessible off of the mall. Uh the the applicant contacted me earlier this year about um installing
uh they have a in their courtyard area they have uh these raised brick walls and on the brick walls in the back uh there's existing fencing. Uh and the question was can they replace that? Can they install new? Um I try to treat
railings and things like that. um if I can if I can approve it administratively I will. So I was if it were replacing what's there staying within the height of what's there um I would have been okay with it. Then we found out that this is DX zoning which does not allow
fences in front yards. So we had to learn all about what's needed for that and um even determine what exactly is the front yard. So, um, if you're looking at the image here, the the the
line, I'm sorry, down there or up here, whichever, uh, the where I've drawn it in red is the front yard as determined by zoning. And therefore, if they want to put a fence in the front yard, they need a special exception from city
council. Um so if you all were to approve this um they could proceed with sorry take a step back along with the fence that they are adding onto these uh the I call it an upper wall and a lower wall they're also
replacing there's a gate uh between the two brick peers there that as you walk up to the building and then where you see that rather simple handrail on the slope section of walk that would be replacing with that uh something a little more ornamental Um, and it's it's
in the the packet. So, the um your approval of a COA, if you if you do um would then they could do construct the the gate, install the new fence in yellow, install the
handrail. However, they would have to then go to council and get approval of a special exception in order to install the segment of fence on that front wall. Clear as mud, I know. So, as far as the
we have typically um well, in our guidelines, fences that are at the street or what we've traditionally at the street or at the sidewalk, no higher than four feet and that's in total fence and wall or if it's just a fence or if it's just a wall, but in total four feet
at the front that exceeds that. We've typically in front yards up to the face of the building required those fences to be no taller than 4 feet. That's the preference. It's not a a requirement. You all can allow something taller. And
then the sideyards and the rear yards 6 to 8t tall. So for purposes of this, the fence that you see in yellow is in the sideyard. Um, so it could be four to six feet tall, but um I think the design
guidelines and what I'm talking to the applicant about is um does it work aesthetically? Does it fit the design? Is it does it overwhelm? Does it underwhelm? Is there a height would be acceptable? I think the design of the fencing uh that's proposed and the gate,
all of that's fine. So the question is really about the height and um the location and if you all have any particular comments about the fence on the front wall like I said that will then become a recommendation. It it
could be a COA if council approves the special exception then your COA is valid. If council says no you can't put it in there uh in that um front wall that doesn't matter that you all approved a COA. So, I think the the
the recommendations I've made I said I have no problem with the design. Yeah, I have no problem with the design. I have no problem with the handrail. I have no problem with the gate. Uh the
question really comes down to is a um is a fence appropriate at that front wall? uh and is a a fence of the proposed height uh appropriate at that front wall. And per
your guidelines, you would suggest that that fence from the sidewalk, the top of the fence be no higher than uh 48 in. So, it's it's a little bit quirky, but and I know Andrea is here and answer any questions that you have. Do you have any questions
for me? >> Yes, sir. So, did you say are they getting rid of the existing little fence that kind of zigzags? >> I believe they are, but I I I'm actually haven't confirmed that. I mean, they can remove that if they wish. >> I have a question.
>> Yes. >> The um this image is what they're proposing, the >> No, that's not the scale. It's just trying to illustrate it. And it and it continues um on the right hand side that there that lower wall is in two sections and goes up. There's another entrance
there that it curls around to. Yeah. So there um so that >> it comes and it curls there along that lower wall there's you see there it says door. Um so
>> so the red dash line is how tall? 42. >> That's 42 and it's on top of I I think I measured at about 15 inches. Um, >> so 42 total. >> No, the fence is 40 3T, right?
>> No, the the fence itself is like 42 5/8. Um, >> the um PL I mean that's remember when they set the fence they'll they'll level it in the ground. So, but so just assume 42 in. And then the height of that lower
wall is um >> right there. Yeah, 15 in. Now, that's at a grade, so it's pitched, but it is continuous uh in height above the sidewalk, whereas the upper wall uh starts at 3 ft and it drops, I think,
five or six courses by the time it gets down there. So, but it is 3 feet at that corner. >> The applicant like to come up and present, >> please state your name. >> Um, good evening. My name is Andrew
Nelson. I'm representing 530 East Main Street. Um, so just for context, we've been trying to spruce up the building internally and externally. So this is part of a big a bigger project. We're using um Stokes of England, which is a local blacksmith. So really excited
about that. Um, and we have put a lot of thought and effort um into the design. As Jeff said, we think it will add a lot of great value um to the building and just to the area in general. Um, I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.
>> Any, uh, questions from the public? >> Questions from the board. >> What's the, uh, reason for the fencing? >> Well, the reason for the fencing, so as it was shown, we we actually already have the gate. Um, and then we have internal fencing that we are actually going to going to rip that out. And the
reasoning is because it's very old and it looks very um deteriorated. And so because we're doing that anyway, we just wanted to continue it and we think that that's the best way that it looks. Um I I will say also so we are also um like for security measures as you can
see we have really big um windows and so anyone that doesn't have ill intent right I don't think that this would apply to but just for like a security standard like it's just if it's a little bit higher we think that anyone that has ill intent to carve into the building or anything which has happened might be
deterred And you are you're replacing all the you're replacing the existing gate. >> Yes. Yep. We're replacing the ex and I there was a picture of the gate. I don't know if it was in this presentation. Um but we are replacing and it's already an iron gate, right? >> And then anything that's internally like
the zigzag that was mentioned. Um it doesn't show it here, but it's really deteriorating and like orange and kind of falling apart >> as is the gate. You can actually kind of see it on the railing at the front how there's like spots of of orange in it. And that's how
it all looks. >> Any other questions? >> Uh I had a question. The I think you said this so I apologize if you're repeating yourself, but the there's a fence kind of in the planter already that's going. >> Yes. Okay. >> Yeah. And that's just because it it is
degrading and very old. in this front front section. Have you did you ever just think about adding shrubs or um you know um other landscape instead of the um instead of the 42 inch
high fence? >> You know, we we really haven't. >> Any other questions? Is the landscaping going to stay behind the fence? Yes. >> Hi. >> Wait, I'm sorry.
>> Are you getting rid of any of the like the trees? >> Oh, no. No, we are not planning on on changing the landscaping. >> So, any uh comments from the public? Comments from the board? I think the applicant's been very nice
not to mention this, but we know the reason that this is being done is that there are trespassers that not necessarily may be trying to break into the building, but they're using these planted areas to urinate and defecate and possibly even sleep there. You know,
the first two are much worse probably than the third. >> Um, but it not just happens at night or during non-b businessiness hours. Um there probably could be other solutions, but you know, frankly, another solution is to build out to this building volume
or increase that brick wall. So it would be you couldn't see through it and um which would also achieve the ends, but it wouldn't be as appealing as it is. So I think this is a good solution. There are difficulties with running a business and any business district, but
particularly the downtown mall um is having an error right now and I would support this application. Um I think it's too high. I um in particular the corner condition where
you have the sort of lower wall meeting the higher wall and the sort of jump in scale of the the um the fence I think is sets up a kind of pre precarious condition. Um,
I would recommend I think I think if it could come down a foot in front I I would be happy to see that and then probably a couple feet on the yellow side. It's hard for me to understand really that sort of elevation of it um
in the drawings uh in total. But I think bringing down that yellow section as shown in here would be a positive change. Um I um I think the gate portion just fine. Um
proceed. But the um what's marked in red down there, I I would not support that. Um I think it would be very odd to put a fence on top of that low wall. Um, and I I apologize that you have a problem um that you would need to fence off that
little grassy portion, but it um it's too tall and it's um there's no, you know, our guidelines say don't add fences in areas where fences don't exist. And I know this building has fences, but downtown doesn't have fences. So, it's very odd to have this
very fenced off area on the mall. Um so, I would not support that lower portion. Um perhaps if you absolutely must have the fence, maybe you just keep it all to the upper wall. Um so it turns back towards the building where that you know
the yellow ends and then cuts back back there as opposed to blocking off the lower planter. Does that make sense? >> It does. >> Um and then the other comment is um while the the handrail looks nice, I
don't think it meets code. So, I would just check into that. Um, handrails need to be graspable and there's specific requirements for that. So, um, yeah, just make sure so we don't have to see this again after it goes to the building office, building permit office. Um, that
that does comply with code. Um, yeah, that's where I stand. >> Can I respond or or no? >> Um, >> I can I don't have Why don't we get all the comments from the board and then we can respond. Um well, I'll I'll I'll I'll chip in
here and say that um so I think um I think the addition of the fence is um a bit unfortunate just based on the on the um overall existing design. I think it the overall existing design um looks and um works um really
well and adding railing is going to kind of fussy up that that um corridor. um you know there's already a railing on the other side. Um on the other on the other hand um I would I would be in support of it just based on the needs
that you know you're expressing um and um um but you know I think my question before have you considered shrubs or some sort of landscaping um in place of that that could act in the same
way that creates a a barrier you know um an area that um wouldn't allow um folks to walk through. I think that would be a um much sort of more appropriate way of of of handling this. Um and then I just also would like to say that um you know
the the design itself is um you know understand that you could put up any kind of fence and this is a nice fence from a good crafts person. Um so that's um I think that's a that's a plus as well. So um while I think that there's a
better way of handling the front um I would be in support of it. Anybody else want to weigh in? >> So, where do we stand or did um let the applicant speak? >> Yeah, let's let's hear uh
>> I just wanted um to touch on the railing that was put together. Jeff had actually asked and so we had him just do kind of the just for the design sake, just so you know. So, that was very preliminary. it would look like that if if it meets code, but we hadn't gone to all that for the for the railing. So,
>> just standard cap that you know at the appropriate height and then I had also asked Andrea about the uh uh that corner where it turns on the lower wall and just make sure that we where the red and yellow came together that that that's engaged and that's in this in in the
drawings. So, I think they have accomplished that. Um >> it just Yeah, I mean it the handrail probably when it actually gets through the um permit office is >> Right. Right. Yeah. That that Yeah, absolutely. And um in fact, I think the
fire department I we've learned more about fences in the last when did you first contact me? In May. So um I'm sorry I make light of it, but but just the humor keeps us going, but it has been Yes. She's Andrea has become an
expert. we're going to hire her as a to get her on a bar next maybe. But um I I think I will just add candidly, you know, again, this has to go to council. Um >> I don't I I can't make any predictions on that. I think um uh but
it's uh but to be clear, if you've got, you know, if if you're okay with the yellow, that does not require counsel. So just so distinguish if you you feel strongly about something. I have a question. >> Yeah. >> Um I like Carl's suggestion of pushing
the fence back to the second wall. Would that require >> No, but we've I raised that. And um I don't want to I don't want to put Andrew in a difficult position, but that would that would solve the the question at least on this side. Remember, there's
also as you proceed to the right of this photograph, there's a large picture window and offices there. So, um I don't think that they the applicant really wanted to concede um something along the front that that served a purpose,
>> but it this brick wall that you see um you know where I have the the three-foot dimension that brick wall continues back straight so the shadow hides a little bit but yes uh as a one remedy would be to just turn the corner there with the
upper wall fence. they could do that. Council doesn't need to be involved. >> And I think also David's recommendation for a planting that would be a deterrent for people occupying that space would be very appropriate for that location.
>> Everybody up here's gone and looked at this, right? Okay. It's Yeah, I was surprised by how small the space is. Um, which again is why it seems to me that putting a fence um on that lower wall feels very awkward
to me. Um, and even more awkward on the piece that's I guess the little triangular piece to the right of this picture. >> Mhm. >> Um, I that would feel very very strange to me >> and out of place out of character. But there's space is big enough to for I
guess people to sleep in. >> I don't know what people do on the mall at night. >> Um >> yeah, I think >> we are going to I mean supposedly we're getting bathrooms on the mall. >> Well, can we just suggest it's best to just take this >> Yeah.
>> from sort of continuing discussion we had earlier. What's the design element here and and how is it looking at it through the lens of the guidelines? Um there are fences and railings uh at other places nearby. So it's not unusual to have that here. We already have the an iron
>> we have an iron fence there. We have the iron gate. So you know so it's sort of to sort of suspend disbelief if you will for what may or may not be the intent of this. Um >> well you said there's fences and gate. I mean, I guess there's as you go further
east around the pavilion, there's fences, but there are none elsewhere in the mall, are there? >> There are no yard fences, but there are railings. And there are certainly railings already existing in this courtyard. >> Yes. >> And yeah, >> this tall, >> right? And and you've got a 42-in
railing there, but we know I because it's pitched, we have, you know, railings and bar, you know, barriers around the the cafe spaces. So, it's not this is not totally unheard of. Um, but I think uh to me a sense of scale. The
design is is is perfect. If they had come in, like you said, and had, you know, something that bought at Lowe's and started putting it in there, I'd have a problem. But this is a an elegant uh design. And I think that yes, from my recommendation to you all, the height, if it was reduced, it would fit in
nicely here. and not for me to comment on the why they may or may not >> how I'm sorry how >> sorry >> how tall is that current one that we don't know when it went in >> oh that lower one I don't know maybe a
foot maybe 15 inches >> this one >> oh that thing there that's uh >> 42 okay >> I mean that's a good picture I think to talk about the fact that there's going to be a lot of fence there now you know when you put the other the one along the
building >> feel a little more tunnel-like as you walk down that pathway. >> Yeah. >> But is that a public path? It goes in front of those two buildings, but it also leads down to >> So, this is where uh property lines on the mall are. Um traditionally, if you
were to walk along the mall, you'll see that soldier course along the front wall. Um our assumption is usually that's the property line. I mean, it may very well be um the face of the wall, but um I don't know. I I would assume
given that they were allowed to build this wall in the 80s that that's on their property. This is not in but that would be part of the building permit review and all that they you know, but um >> but the sidewalk >> the sidewalk is a public walk. Yes, my
understanding. >> Do we have a sense for what the slope of that sidewalk is? It's just over 2%. It's very It's almost imperceptible. And in fact, not until you
you take I took that photo intentionally because I did I end up chatting with Andrea about like how when they build this fence are they going to you know fabricated at a rake or is it going to be segmented? Um and but that that slope
is so imperceptible but it's there. Mhm. >> So having a handrail there wouldn't ne necessarily make sense. So like I'm just thinking like is there a way you could >> make an offering to the public instead of a sort of deterrent and with a
handrail and maybe it could also do the same thing. I don't know if that's a reasonable uh request. C >> can you expand on a handrail or where that would be? Um, and rather than adding a fence with that's clearly like
articulated as a fence like don't go here, >> that's a language of you know architectural language that says keep out to me. whereas a handrail may sort of structurally act in the same way uh but be sort of more inviting like I
don't >> I don't know if I'm I'm not articulating this well but um >> you are >> uh but it's still like structurally like creating a sort of barrier right but it could be an offering rather than a deterrent
>> so currently drawn the um keep the little laser point. So this at that sloped walk here that has the it's a less adorned segment of fence that will have a a
a handrail on top of it. >> You're almost suggesting that at that railing replicate along here a a handrail. Um and then it is a it's a physical deterrent. could still go under it, but it is creating it does create a
barrier and then >> it doesn't show the upper wall here, but that >> upper wall and then >> I mean I don't >> exactly that's what I >> again putting you on the spot. I know that but that's that would be >> I understand what you're saying.
So, uh, Kate, go to the, um, we'll scroll down and there's the image of the, um, hand rail that we included. It's on the last image, um, >> or last page, sorry. Um,
>> no, I don't remember that in my jar. >> Scrolling. Scrolling. Scrolling. One more. Little more. Right there. >> Oh, that's the handrail. >> So, M. Tav, I understand you're you're essentially saying something of a a lower height.
>> Um, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a 42 inch or anything like that. Well, if it's a handle, it's 36 in. >> Well, you could attach the handle to the face of it even, >> you know. >> So, you'd have something at 36, >> right? >> I don't know. Just an idea to consider.
>> Does any of this resonate with you or do you I mean, I guess >> it it does. I didn't know if I was allowed to talk yet or not. >> U please do. >> So, um No, it it does. I just you know, it it has already been mentioned, so I will bring it up. you know, my staff are having to pick up feces on the that
brick wall and that area, which is, you know, not something that they should have to handle or try to prevent as it's happening in broad daylight. Um, >> and so I under I understand the >> hope to transition to something like
landscaping, but we have landscaping and that doesn't prevent them from even that back area, you know, and like I said, it's not only that. we've had pretty unfavorable um symbols carved into our building. So, I I do understand what you're saying that we don't want it to
look and like, you know, and we're not doing a huge fence at the front because we do want to still be inviting. We want to make it look good. We want to add value. Um but we also want to make sure that we're doing something that helps us also and helps, you know, the people
that work in that building on a day-to-day basis. So, Where do we stand? >> I mean, someone if someone's in favor of this, they should make a motion. We'll see if it flies. Um, I think there's a bigger issue. I mean, obviously, there's
a bigger issue at play that I think council needs to address with a more general solution to the mall. Um, >> I I have a question. Sorry. um having this go to council would that be a
positive discussion to have again meaning like the reasons this is happening is that a forum in which this could be a larger discussion. So, if we were to approve this, then it has to go to >> I think that you have to almost like uh
with the the demolition of Wland um realize that your your conversation is going to serve as the record. Um I said I I I I hesitate to um because on one side and I understand from talking with Andrea that that this is what they wish
to take to council. So there was a hesitation to say all right well then we could throw in some alternatives because then the first response from council might be oh well then do the alternatives instead. Now if you felt that it was really a strong design reason to do that um I think it's
reasonable but I I think it's it's it's that fine line of deciding or we're trying to find a solution that's acceptable to council or find a design solution that's acceptable for the guidelines. Uh having said that I'm
I'm I don't believe council there are I get contacted frequently um people who are concerned that things that the BAR has or should have looked at uh serve as impediments uh uh to the
unhoused on the mall. But that's the distinction of this is private property. This is not we're not this is what's you know I have a fence in my backyard you know I and my sideyard it's to keep a giant dog in but um it's my I have a
fence and that's my business so this is a looking at this as a private property I think they have every right to ask that um however I I know that the bar or that council will be asked about that because that is a pervasive question so
I think Um the that's why I think your solution if I were advising the applicant is really an ideal one. It creates the barrier that at least has a separation and it it is a design solution and that continuing the fence
around the corner on the upper wall um would allow them to at the very least con they could construct that regardless of what the the council that would not be going to council. But I think that you all um
you are welcome to make in your recommendation acknowledgment of um the situation. It sort of goes to what we were saying earlier about the use. Um um the it's not in our purview. It's not in the
B's perview to disagree with them for wanting to install a fence. Um we don't have to agree, but to at least understand why they wish to do it. and then B, how does that then fit with the guidelines? But I think when council gets this, um, I don't think this it's
time I don't think they'll view it as time for a broader discussion. Um, I think it may come up, but I would I would I would stay in your in your box on this one. >> I think if we vote to approve it and then it goes to council, council's going to look at that as just we recommended
they should approve it. >> Correct. >> So they're not I don't think the discussion will happen. M >> I would think if we denied it the um um if they um take that to council, >> it would go to that would go to council
as a recommendation for them to not allow the special exception permitting that fence on the lower wall. >> But I imagine that might dig up more of a discussion about the reasons for the fence. >> I think they're going to come up no matter what. >> Okay. >> I'm just saying that I think they're
going to come up. I just don't think that the bar should be that that that just if you want to start talking about that I think you you're you're exceeding your
by the book you're exceeding your >> Well, I don't think Yeah, we can't use as a reason, but >> Sherry, you want to make a motion. Why don't you make a motion and we'll see if it succeeds and if it doesn't >> I'm going to I'm just going to make a comment. Um mostly that two things. One that our
purview does not go to zoning and that there is a portion of approval for this that's out of our hands so they would be at city council and that has to do with zoning. This body does not deal with zoning. There's the next um item we're looking at our on our agenda. I think that the public's concerns are more with
zoning than they are with our purview, which is very limited. Um, I also support this because there are extreme circumstances um, facing this property owner and weighing the guidelines
against those circumstances and frankly wanting for businesses and you know without businesses folks the downtown mall shutters and there would be nothing there. Um, and it doesn't pervade every decision I make, but you know, the
comfort of the people that come to this place every day, and it's a very large employer. Um, and not just comfort, that's a light word, but you know, none of them should be asked to clean up somebody's feces. I'm sorry. Um, that's just a a shame. And it's it's extreme.
They're not they're not being bad neighbors by doing this. They are protecting their property. And I don't think that what we have in the guidelines or the zoning objection um outweighs my support for this. So I'm
going to make a motion in favor. Having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including the ADC district design guidelines, I move to find a proposed f fence gate and rail installation at 530 East Main Street satisfies the B's criteria and is
compatible with this property and other properties in this ADC district and that the BIR approves the application as submitted. I also want to say that I can sit here and come up with other
solutions of how this could be done that may have achieved some of the goals, but I'm not the applicant and you know we can we can't second judge and we can't design for the applicant and we you know we have to take a vote on what's before us and that's what my motion's about.
Thank you. If I could just clarify and that is at the height proposed um the 42 inch fence whatever the height the resulting height is but the the the height as shown on the garage. >> Yeah. What the height is shown if you want to add that is.
>> All right. Let's take a vote. Mr. Rosen. >> I second a motion. >> I Mr. Schwarz >> no. >> Mr. Tony >> no. >> And I'll vote yes. >> So I think you got it. So, the motion passed 3 to2.
>> Okay. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> All right. Yeah. So, Andrew, we'll talk I'll talk to Carrie tomorrow and so the next step is whatever she has to prepare for council and we'll see where that goes. >> Okay. Thank you. Thank you for your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right. Thank you for your patience on that.
>> Um yeah, I mean as a downtown resident almost 30 years, so yeah, I understand. Um, and it's a this is a tough one, but I am I am often asked by people um if the BAR should be um and I I've just
had to say to folks, this this is private property. This is uh um I can't, you know, and if if it violates the design guidelines, well, then the B can decide, but it's um I can't ask you all to to to to step in
um where you can't go. >> Oh, go ahead. I just say I mean um staff of the public should remember that we also fought really hard against parks and wreck trying to put backless benches in on the mall that you know prevented people from sitting for a long time. So it's not like we're
>> but there are gates around our fountains. Let's be real. The downtown mall is full of barriers. >> Don't get me started. >> Some of them installed by the city of Charlottesville. >> Um and not all of them are at handil height. The ones around the fountains are even larger. And is there really a
public purpose in keeping people out of that water that's greater than a private property owner protecting its boundaries? You know, I I I don't know the answer to that, but there are certainly a lot of barriers and gates and fences all up and down the downtown mall
>> that we didn't put there. >> We did not put that. >> I think I think timing played into it for me as well. I think that there was seemed like there was an urgency and that they've been working on this issue for quite some time and um it seemed like something needed to be done.
>> It is u part of the uh tree plan. Um and Paul Chosy uh you know pushed some things. It wasn't just about trees. She's also recognizing other elements of the mall such as the fountains and that they need to be freed
and opened up. And so, uh, and I can tell you Kate and I quietly bang the drum as much as we can. Um, we have to be good civic employees, but not all the time. Um, so when we had the opportunity, we remind everybody there
are actually are three small fountains and one large fountain. You can't get to any of them and uh, etc., etc., etc. So, keep it up. Uh, the you're being heard. We just need to keep nudging things along. So, fingers crossed. Okay, the
next item up is um find my notes. So, this is a discussion about uh the project at 7th Street. I don't know quite what to call it yet. 202, 204, 208, 613 Delivan, but
so just 7th Street is what I've come down on. And uh but the um you all have had two um had a preapp conference about it and a preliminary discussion. Um
this tonight I'm not bringing forward for any action. Um it is I think maybe the the the last turn uh if you will to advise the applicant um if there is
anything in these 78 pages that is unclear or needs to be uh expounded on so that there's is understanding of what they are proposing to do. Um I mentioned briefly in in the premeating, but the city has
neighborhood development has a new process uh for um presenting preliminary projects and preliminary discussions and uh and this one sort of straddled that line a little bit. So uh
but I won't get into the details but the point being um certain things need to be demonstrated on site plan or development plan either concurrently with the bar sort of review or prior to it. Um but I think that um I don't think this
project's as presented I think there are some still some questions will come up in the in the site plan development plan discussions. However, I think um they've they've demonstrated thoroughly what they're hoping to do and planning to do um at least as far as the extent of this
site is involved. But what I um as I mentioned in my note to you all, this is a it's a complex project. There's a lot going on here. And the greatest difficulty that we've had um I think even discussing amongst ourselves but
certainly expressing it outwardly is the only reason that you all are seeing this is because two parcels on 7th Street are individually protected properties. Um this is not a historic district like on
West Main or downtown. Uh the reason that you all have purview is singularly because of those two uh late 1800 brick buildings. If this project were to have moved forward and not touched those, there would be no design review
whatsoever for this. This wouldn't um and it would there'd be no public process in fact. And that's some of what we're seeing is that because of the way the ordinance was written, uh you all are now um the board of architectural review is seen as a
a place to voice concern. And I think as we talked a month and a half ago or two months ago about um the West Main project, we're a town that takes great pride in public participation. I spent almost 20 years before here getting people stirred up and going out to
public meetings, so I know all about it. I like seeing the good fight be fought, but the um the challenge that you all have is that um there are some concerns with this project that are zoning and there are some concerns that are related to its design and particularly related
to its design as a function of how this new project interfaces and interacts with these two historic houses. Um that's not to say that we don't care what happens around the three walls uh away from these two buildings, but the
primary focus is the preservation of those two buildings um and and that the this design is compatible with them. Additionally, I know this was within a national register district uh Tonsler neighborhood is is on the national register, but it's not because
of that national register district that you all have perview. We do when that district was created I think 2016 or 2017 um much like Belmont North Belmont neighborhood the neighbors did not want a local designation. So uh they uh
accommodated being on the national register but they did not as I understand from Mary Joy did not want local designation which would have afforded district status to the entire neighborhood and you all could be looking at this project somewhat differently. Now, I'm not trying to give
you a way out or or I'm I'm just saying the facts are is where your purview comes from and what your guidance, what your instructions are from council is entirely comes down to these two historic houses. And um I think we need
to be I think it's it's valid to consider how this project um ma height massing and scale and its relationship uh to the setting. But it's um there's also in the zoning where it's adjacent to a neighborhood of a of a different uh
um zoning. It has to have step back and a um height reduction. So some of that is built into the code. But you all cannot um this is a residential project and it's
good to know that uh because it does help in the context of what the design what are you looking at? You're looking at something that's being designed for residences. Who lives here is irrelevant um under what you all are charged with looking at. Um you can't consider
whether or not this should be a residential project. That you're not allowed to do that. But you can consider what this residential project will look like. So, um, and then as I spoke with some of the folks, uh, who've been communicating with me, um, it's very
helpful to get comments, but it has, you know, what's within your, uh, perview to do that. And I know Mr. Snyder has talked he's talked to people uh, my colleagues about uh, having a a zoning um, amendment for this area. Fair
enough. But that's not you all don't even review or comment on zoning text amendments or zoning map amendments unless they're associated with expanding or reducing historic designation. So it's not something that you would even comment on. So um sorry that now to get
to the Mr. uh Matthews is here tonight and I've asked him to you know keep it brief. let's, you know, get to what his questions are, get to what anything that he wishes to point out and really make this an effective conversation from his
point of view and then from you all. I really if there is something in here that is lacking, if there's additional information, if there's a question, now is a good time to ask. One of the key things that I had asked you all in the my note was um John didn't want to come over here tonight with a U-Haul full of
um samples and I told him not to bring any, but if there are some things that you all would like to see, you know, whenever this comes to you as a formal application, now is a good time to ask. I mean, you can always make a comment later, but that's one of the questions that I thought um you all should talk
about. And the other thing was there's a lot of information at the end of the submittal package about the two houses and you know have they have they adequately addressed how the two houses will be um be treated and the last thing
I'll say is that the the the thing about the buildings those two old houses is we don't review maintenance and repair. So, um, there's a lot there maybe, but I think knowing that they're going to be preserved and that there's a plan for them and there are going to be some slight alterations to them as long as
we're okay with that. But as far as them fixing the gutters or painting the windows, that's um that's not some that's something I tell them to do with uh just a conversation. Uh Jess, before we get to this,
>> if it comes about and we approve the COA when it comes to us, is that going to be the end of all the public discussion on this project? >> So, I don't know what's involved with the uh zoning side of thing or I know there's still some site plan issues. I
don't know. Um, I mean that was part of the result of the new zoning ordinance that it it there's a lot less of the give and take, but you all will have you can certainly anybody can send me an email
whenever they want. Um, they can send something to the B, they can send something to city council, it gets circulated, you can share comments. Uh, we have we allow comments during work sessions. I think I would like I would encourage you to keep those limited and germanine but um and then whenever this
does if it does go forward for a formal request um that's an advertised public hearing. So those are the opportunities for people to speak. We don't um as far as the design review process we don't have u required community meetings.
These are the community meetings. >> Okay. So, I guess I'll just reiterate that no actions being taken. This is just discussion. Um we'll leave public comments um until after the applicant has a chance to present. And so with that, would you like to
>> Was the applicant asked to limit their comments to 10 minutes? >> I did. Well, typically and and that's in our >> that's our that's SOP anyway. Uh, so I will I will set the time clock. This doesn't have a score on it, but
that's the hardest part of a Oh. All right. So, I see 10 minutes, but then I see seven minutes. What's down? >> I see. I see seven on my >> Which what? >> Hit the plus button. >> Well, it says total time 10. Now it says 11.
>> Oh, there you go. You got up to eight. You go up to nine. >> But now it says 13. >> See? See? >> Thank you, Kate. >> Well, what does this thing say down here? >> Great. >> All right, it's fine with me. As long as Jim and John don't get in a fight over who talks first.
>> So, good evening. I'm John Matthews with Mitchell Matthews Architects. I'm here with my colleagues Alan Wong and Jim Dutbury. We're joined on the line by Danson. He's our landscape architect. I think Jim G uh Jeff gave a good uh
recap. We can go as quickly as you're comfortable with. We can just zoom through this. I thought we should give a brief brief recap for folks in the audience, but if you think we can skip over that, we can we can Yeah. Well, didn't want to bore you with
that. So, um this is our third meeting in front of BA. As you can see by the title, we assumed that this was going to be a vote on this, but the city planning asked us to come back for yet another discussion. That wasn't our choice, but we were asked to do that. So, very
quickly, this project is, as Jeff said, is not in a design control district. It complies with the comp plan. The project complies with the zoning ordinance. The project complies with affordable housing manual. The project rescues and retains those two buildings. And if you've
visited them or looked at the package, you'll see how how poor quality they're in or shape. This project furthers the city's vision for more housing. And this project rejuvenates those very seriously declining, dilapidated, almost falling apart buildings. Um, let's go through
this. So, briefly, we're here to ask for your permission to remove non-contributing aspects of those existing buildings. We're also asking for your permission to build behind those buildings. You've uh supported those requests on other projects very
close by very recently. So, this is doing ex virtually the same sort of thing. The site you all I think everyone knows where it is tucked up against the railway line. A large enlargement of that site showing the two um the two IPs
204 and 208. This is the site history. I don't want to read that to you. This is the front view on on 7th Street. 204 is on the left. That has not been occupied by for 23 years according to the current
owners. And it's uh again if you have a close look at it, you'll see it's barely hanging on. Existing photos. Next quick. >> It's going so fast. Okay. >> Plan on the ticket. So the inside is
severely dilapidated and keep going. Um more detail on that first request. Um next this is showing those um non-contributing elements of the IPs that were requesting be removed.
They were the post shade areas. This is them in more detail. Next, these are the projects. Some of the projects you've supported. Some of them you have actually approved, others you've just verbally supported. Next, uh the second bar request. Um and this
is how we're honoring those two houses. We're really honoring them by retaining them, rehabilitating them, reusing them, repairing them. Um and then we're doing a number of other other things that you I'm sure have read. These are those uh
precedents that you have previously approved. Very very close. Um probably the Doyle is maybe the the one that most people might recognize. Next. So this is sort of important for you and maybe more for Carl. He probably knows
this by heart, but this this site is zoned RX5, but the previous ordinance was also zoned for higher density. So nothing has really changed on this for decades. It's been higher density for for a long as long as I can remember.
Next, this is really just a topo. There's a a threetory drop that goes down seventh. This is in response to your comments, previous comments. Some of you were at those previous meetings where you asked us to move the building back. So this building starts at the high point along
the railway line and drops down as it approaches uh Delvin Street. So it's stepping down all the way again in full compliance with the transitions required under the ordinance. >> And so these are the responses to the your comments from our last meeting and
I'll go through these quickly. Um the first comment was can you provide more detail on the proposed opening at the rear of 2087 street. So this is that view of the what we call the pocket park behind 208 on the on the right and then the new building kind of wrapping around
this courtyard where Seventh Street is sort of glimpsed through on the right there. Um and so this is you know the next step um where the plan on the the site plan or landscape plan on the right there
demonstrates where that pocket park exists and then how we're proposing opening up the rear of 208 so that it um has a connection to that courtyard and this is covered later. Um
the second comment was that uh there was the idea or they asked for a clear understanding of how the brick brick ribbon band would create a better shadow visible shadow line. And so this uh demonstrates that where we have our belt course. And then also what didn't show
up well in the last rendering was that the idea it's rusticated across the base of the whole building. um as well. The idea there is that it has enough brick detailing to be complimentary to the IPS
but not try to mimic the brick design. U and then bar comment three was uh would be helpful to have a cross-section through Delivan and the project and to show how the transitions and stepdowns occur along Delivan. And so we have a
face-to-face building of about 51 feet and then the minimum uh step back is about 20 feet. Um comments five and six were uh regarding the planting tree planting space along uh 7th Street and Delivan.
And this is a detail to show that yes, you can get a tree to to plant a tree in that zone. So this is a view from seventh street and this view sort of represents many of the requests that you had made and we've
incorporated those requests to step the building down to step it back. That center portion you may recall we stepped back 100 ft further than it was initially. Next looking up Seventh Street, the two IPs
are here. Next, looking down Seventh Street. The two IPs are here. Next, this is a detail up close. I think Sher, you were interested in the activation of the street and how we would handle those IPs. These are folks coming out of the
pocket park that Jim mentioned. Next, this is a view of that park, pocket park. The proposed building is here. Existing buildings are here. This gentleman is walking out onto Seventh Street next.
>> Uh, and these are some of the elevations that we showed previously where we're identifying the material pallet. I'm just going to flip through these quickly. >> Two minutes left. >> It's moving so fast. >> Oh no,
>> it broke it. >> Okay, stop the clock. >> Keep talking. Jeff Jeff >> I think it's loading it'll come back. >> Okay. So >> sorry. >> Okay. So uh at the we met with the folks
in Fville and they um one of the gentlemen there had a good question about he he was wanted to understand if I remember correctly what this project would look like from his house. He lives generally at round number one and we thought that was a very good question.
So we incorporated we took that question and expanded it and within a block of the site we started to take photos and then imposed the building on that. You may see on this the tower that's the existing radio tower that's there and this is from about a block away. Um I
think the gentleman lived here approximately and so that's his view out in the street next. And we just go through these. These are from Sixth Street. And the map in the bottom corner shows where they're taken from in case you're wondering. This is from Fifth
Street. Quick June. Uh from 7th and 7 and a half street from Delvin. This is across Dalvin. So obviously it's not not visible. This is further down 6 and a half street. fifth street to join.
We're going to run out of time. Let's This is the landscape. Let's just jump through that. If you have questions, that's >> I go too fast. >> We got a slow click that we need. I'll just say at the at the very end there are several sheets regarding the historic structures the IDPs and happy
to answer questions about those. >> Yeah. And I will add that though what we're following is your guidelines and secretary of the interior's guidelines as closely as humanly possible on the on the uh rehabilitation of those. So they're you know we're not cutting any
corners on those. Happy to answer any questions. Anyone? >> I think we probably need to >> public question. >> Oh, >> it's not actually no public hearing. >> Yeah, I think we're just Yeah, I think
maybe we just keep that for one session. Um, so do we want to make any comments first? Open it up to the public. Um, I do have a I do have a question. I'm curious about what the um use will be for the the two IPs.
>> What was what >> I can I can tell you, but I thought I thought Jeff clearly outlined that, but we we had answered that previously and they're going to be some type of comm uh amenity space for the larger project.
exactly what that will be. Whether they're meeting rooms, a little coffee shop, >> we're not sure, but it'll be that we figured that they were too small. I know Sher had a different opinion about that, but too small for actually actual units by the time we made them accessible. So,
I'll just jump in too and say um hopefully it was evident how much care is being given to that courtyard around them. And that is because it's meant to be some kind of active space um that that
streetscape. So something >> Yeah. Just to be clear um I didn't say I mean you all had mentioned last time how they saw it as uh almost like the think about like the cracker box on um East Range and some of the smaller out
buildings on the academical village. But the um they had discussed the potential use for it and and so just we're all clear and folks in the audience you you can ask what the use is and we can talk about the use. Uh I think
knowing what something's going to be used as is helpful in in that I mean understanding how what the space has been designed for. So I when I say it doesn't matter what the use is, it's not to say um we're ambivalent to that, but
that we don't have you don't have a say. You don't get to say I don't want that to be used as residential or I don't want that to be offices. It's that uh but understanding what that use is helps um sort of put that design in the right
context. So, so if John had said, I'm I'm going to be using this to store things, you all would ask, you certainly could ask design questions in the context of it being a storage space. >> I'll just jump in too and say on the on
the sheets that we submitted, there was we did include some a brief history of what happened in those structures. Um and uh that we do intend on having some sort of permanent marker to talk about that history. So one of the things that they
are doing is in that courtyard uh presenting that brief history to people passing by. >> Yeah. And I'd also like to point out that the uh zoning uh ordinance also we're using these as active depth to meet the active depth requirement. So
that requires us not we aren't allowed to put storage or certain uses in there that make it inactive. Um so we're using we're using this as part of our calculation uh to meet the zoning requirements. >> Other questions while the applicants
have I got questions but I think I'll save them more for when we're having a back and forth discussion. >> Okay. Um, shall we open it up to the public? >> Sure. >> Thank you all. >> Anybody from the public would like to
come up and make a comment? Yes. Please state your name and your address. >> I'm a little slow. >> Take your time. >> My name is Laura Facto. Dr. Laura Feto. I'm a was the chief nurse at the health
center and also a member of the faculty at the school of nursing. So I have mixed feelings about a development. Um as a chief nurse I liked to hire nurses
from town. They make good nurses and they can come in at a moment's notice. But school I was um worried about faculty not having space to live in town. So from a
perspective of what they want to build, I have mixed feelings. On a personal level, they would be building in my backyard. I live at the very end of Walker Square, which if I walked through
my um through my doorway, I would hit the lovely pictures of the my neighbors um garage, I guess it is. There's a boat back there. There's a variety of things that are pretty just uh not pleasant.
But the thought of building a sevenstory building that would absolutely destroy the texture of Fville is just I bought in FIL because it felt right. It felt like
a community. Um I sit at at the um FIF meeting every month trying to understand the history uh of FIL which I happen to be a New Yorker so seven stories is sort
of silly to me um I lived in town I went to school in New York so that the height is not the issue it's where the height is um the Baptist church would be adversely affected you couldn't see that
church. Um, I want to say one other thing. I took a drive today on Delivan and the all of the up and down neighborhoods. I'm curious. There's not as much space there as as I was thinking based on the
pictures. Um, so it's curious to me other than the garage that's sitting at the end of Delivan, um, what's going to be torn down? What possibly could they put that building on that space? I'm not
an architect. I'm a nurse. Heaven forbid um you give me that kind of opportunity to give advice to um if I were a mill billionaire and if I had a piece of land in town, not there, but perhaps close
by. I thought the pictures were gorgeous. But I'm a nurse. What What do I know? They look pretty. Um but I ask um I don't know where this goes but this is not the place for a sevenstory luxury
dormatory. Uh with all due respect thank you [Applause] thank you miss back. Hi, I'm Stephanie Lawson. I live on 7th and a half street Southwest. I went to UVA, graduated in 88, uh, excuse me, 92,
came to Charlottesville in ' 88, bought my house in Fill in 2001, and I've lived in that neighborhood ever since. Watched a lot of changes, watched Walker Square get built, and I remember the hoops Walker Square had to go through. I am
all for using the land we have in FIF to do, you know, to put extra housing in. 100% behind that. Do I like the type of housing that's being proposed? No. I think my big objection to the whole thing and that I think the architectural review board can help with is that I do
not feel that the building that we're putting in that is being proposed while beautiful doesn't really protect the scale and character of the Fel neighborhood. I feel like it is well a lovely building if it's set on Main Street and all the examples given
were on Main Street. You know, it does not suit uh an actual neighborhood where you have small children, where you have a lot of family, single family homes, you have duplexes, and you have people that have lived in that community that actually been, you know, I noticed the
comments from the man there about like what people have done or not done in the past. And I don't think that's really at play. I think you have a community that is slowly becoming educated on how they need to take action and what they can do. So I just wanted to say I don't think the building fits the scale of the
neighborhood. And that's it. And I will be going to the zoning units and talking to zoning about it. >> Thank you, Stephanie. >> Hello, my name is Kalita Wood. I am current president of Field Neighborhood Association. Thank you guys for
listening to us tonight. Several of us are here. Um I come before you to talk about this project on 7 Street. Years ago, this neighborhood and the streets were not built for luxury cars,
big tall buildings. It's a small scale neighborhood. I also ask that you scale down on that project that's coming down. If you come down Main Street at one time, you could look over and see the sun going any direction. You could see
the mountains going any direction with all the tall buildings coming up there. Feels like you're in a dungeon. You're going up the street. There's a tall building here. There's a tall building here. No sun coming in. How would you like to be in your home? Sevenstory
building being built. Your kids are getting dressed for bedtime or for school. Someone in a tall building is looking over in your yard. Your child is there getting ready to go to bed. That's not good. We ask that if this project goes through that it be scaled back at
least to a minimum of four to five stories. Also, I want to um ask that you think about the impact and the quality of life the elderly would have with this project coming into the neighborhood.
Some of the elderly people there as it is can't get around and you added more cars coming in, more people coming in. Walk a square on one side, this project on the other side. It's not good quality of life for the residents in this
neighborhood. it does not fit into this neighborhood and we ask that you think seriously about this project and what it'll do to the neighborhood. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Hi, my name's Hannah and I live in
Belmont, but I'm a long-term Charlottesville area resident. Um, I >> would you repeat your full name? Hannah Strauss. Um, I ask that you one listen to the residents of the people who already live
in this neighborhood and the fact that they regularly have said please don't build tall buildings in our neighborhood so that we can have light and have mobility and a lot of these streets are one way. Like you can't build something this tall and expect it to have the same
feeling of the neighborhood that it does now. But anyways, um I also just this is this is similar to the other building the other luxury apartment building that's going up where we don't need luxury apartment buildings like just
period. We don't need luxury apartment buildings in town. We need affordable housing. I know that there you had a lot of talk about purview and what this board and this committee can do. Um, I ask that you listen to Miss Carmelita of at least scaling it back or putting
pressure on them. And I ask that you uh think about the fact that a lot of residents in a a lot of these black neighborhoods, specifically thinking about like West Haven, um, have been pushed out of other neighborhoods. And so if you're thinking of I can't imagine
who could have made those decisions about raising Vinegar Hill or about destroying black homes and black businesses, you are in the position of power right now to push back on that. I know that you would say it has to go to city council. But you can at least make them waste their time, waste that money
because they should not be able to build something like this and block out people's light. That is that should be illegal. We shouldn't let that happen. Um there are things that need to be that need to happen in fight like there needs to be access to food. There needs to be access and like food systems. Uh there
needs to be more bus routes and more access to equitable transportation. There doesn't need to be luxury apartment buildings that are here to to support the further gentrification of a small neighborhood in Charlottesville. So please think about the fact that you do have power in this and should use
that power to benefit people who live here and who lived here for generations. There are generational homes that need to be protected and families that are here. So, please keep that in mind. >> Thank you. >> Yes. My name is uh Todd Hill, H I L. I
currently live at the uh Cedar Court Condominium building uh right near Barracks Road Shopping Center. Uh hopefully next year I'll be living in Fry Springs. Um, I'm not going to stand here and say I'm in support of the building or not in support of the building. What I would
like to say, uh, speak a little bit about the context of the building. The fact of the matter is, uh, we've jumped the shark in Charlottesville. Uh, regardless of whether anybody likes it or not, or for better or worse, uh, we are gentrifying
and we have become more denser and denser. And basically if you look at the whole main street corridor at this point uh any sense of small community, small town uh historics um is gone and has been gone for a
while. Uh what I like about this building in the brief presentation that the architectural firm put on is the fact I think they really went above and beyond to actually consider where it's going and what is already there. the fact that they are taking so much
consideration of the two historic buildings there. Uh to me, you know, if you're going to put something there, I think they're presenting a very good option. Uh if you look back in some other situations in town, I can't give you the exact address, but I know you'll
know the building I'm talking about. uh right across from the Omni between um Water Street and South Street uh a large high-rise was put up there and attached to one of the original buildings that was considered historic. My guess is
none of you were on the architectural review board at the time. So, I won't blame you, but whoever thought of that idea, if you look at it from the back, it's absolutely heinous and hideous and it ruined that South Street there. Definitely, without
a doubt. So, once again, I just like to point out that I'm not saying yay or nay in the building. I'm just saying if it went through, I was impressed by what this architectural firm has has done. That's all I have to say. Thank you. >> Thank you. Yes, please step up to the
mic. >> Hey, everyone. I'm uh Matthew Simon. Uh live on Dice Street. Um celebrating my 20th anniversary of living there this year. actually. Um I also own the property uh right behind that which is on Delivan Street uh which is at the
very very end of that street. Um I think the presentation is fine. Uh you know it's definitely doesn't really match what the actual realization is. You know you look at a lot of green that's happening in those pictures and I mean there's Walker Square on the other side of 7th Street. No one's going to look in
on that view of the courtyard ever really honestly. Um I I think it's gorgeous but I don't think it really fits. And I think that's what my my plea to you all here is that just to maybe consider a little bit more. You know, when we were walking over here um from our house, we were looking at all the
other houses. Like our house was built in like the early 20s. A house next to it was built uh even earlier than that around the corner around the same time. It's all brick. It's all It all looks old. It looks like a neighborhood. You know, I grew up in Willoughby where we all the houses look the same. We have a
little bit of that, but in the same time, it has a definition. It has a character. You know, you might not like the code building, but at least it's freaking brick that matches all the other brick that's on the downtown mall. I just don't think this matches. I
really don't like the facade. There is that like little bit of brick on that first level there, but as you go up, that is not what it looks like. And that is not what our neighborhood looks like. And it just doesn't fit on so many levels. I know that we don't have time to go into the traffic calming and the
parking and all that stuff today. And I know that's not really any of your purveyance here, but currently what's happening in Fville on those streets right now are traffic calming initiatives. And they've been happening for a year and a half. And no one's been talking to these guys about that
apparently because there is no way that this structure is going to be able to sustain what they've got going on right now. The neighborhood is moving, getting a co-op hopefully. There's a lot of energy in this neighborhood. This just doesn't fit it, and it doesn't fit it on
the way that it looks either. Thank you. >> Thank you. [Applause] >> Good evening. My name is Sarah Malpass. Uh I live at 626 Bailey Road in FIL and I'm also the vice president of the Fil Neighborhood Association. I think you've
had a lot of um community members and neighbors of mine who've spoken tonight about the feel of the fit, the sense of the conflict with the history of the community. Um so I just want to affirm what's being said um from those
residents and also add that as you think about community fit and the historic nature of this community, history isn't just about buildings. It's about the people who built them. And I want to make sure that as you think about the impacts on the
neighborhood, you're thinking about not just the impacts on the architecture, but the people and the communities that created that architecture and the people in the communities that continue to steward that architecture going into the future. Um, so I'm just going to point us back to the Terry Avenue small area
plan, which came from residents, which has been adopted into city code, um, and which reflects the vision that our residents have. Um so as you're thinking about community impacts and fit, please keep these um items from the Cherry Avenue small area plan in mind. First,
the neighborhood vision. Cherry Avenue and the surrounding areas will be a vibrant mixeduse community that supports a diverse, thriving Fville community. Development will respect and preserve the history and culture of the FIF neighborhood. New development and
investment on Cherry and throughout the neighborhood will build a sense of community between longtime and newer residents and be accessible and welcoming to residents at the most vulnerable end of the socioeconomic scale. This building does not do that.
It contributes to displacement in our community, something that our residents have been working really hard to fight for the last number of years. We need your help in fighting that fight. Um there are a lot of goals in the Terry Avenue small area plan. I will just pick
one um to read um to you, which is to ensure that lowincome residents, people of color, and generational residents are able to remain in Fville and benefit from neighborhood investments. Again, this building does not fit that vision
from our residents. Thanks, [Applause] Hi, my name is Sophia Morero. I'm a community organizer for the Public Housing Association of Residents and I live on Beach Crest Court by the Wegman's. Um, I'm here to speak in
opposition to the Field Building, but most of all here to ask what we define as the right to a home. Uh, it's something that has become something of a human right, I believe, and it's something that's up for discussion. But when we talk about a
home, we don't just mean a building. We don't just mean a house. We don't just mean walls. That doesn't make it enough for people to live and survive. Um, and so when we think about the impact that these that this building is going to have on these homes, it's not about it's
about the quality of life that people experience and the quality of life that will be interrupted if this building is built. Um, so I just want to echo that uh and echo what everyone else has said. Um, and to protect black neighborhoods,
we are gentrifying this city. We must do something about it. Um, and I understand again that the bar is limited in their purview. Um, but whatever you can do, please do it. Thank you. [Applause]
>> Hi, my name is Andrew Nighting. Um, I live in the Rio district of Al County, but I work at UVA, so that's why I'm here. Um, I'm just bringing in some of the worker perspective from UVA. Um, on my end of town, we have a luxury
apartment that looks very similar to some of the plans that were presented tonight. And I can let you know that the people that are in my range of income cannot afford things like this. If we want to have people that we want to work in our town and live here, we have to
have buildings and housing access to them that they can actually afford. Um there was recently some apartment buildings put up uh and we're concerned about how this is going to be raising our rent in our area. Um
a studio apartment that's 550 ft is going to be $1,800 a month. Um which is very close to what we're paying for our three-bedroom apartment right now. Um, I want you guys to consider that as you're coming to your decision about whether or not this is actually going to represent the community that it's going to be
built in. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Hi, I'm Marina Simon. I also live at 599 Dice Street and have the property delin that backs up to this property. Um, and I guess for me is that I see all of
these renderings and living in Charlottesville since 1992, I don't have faith in in it. I've seen the standard go up. I've seen all these buildings go with all of the promises of what it's going to look like. I remember when the
amphitheater was going to be a a movable park that could come in and out and it was going to be this thing and that was all crap. And so I don't have faith in these drawings because I don't know that somebody who isn't from our town and our
neighborhood and speaking from our voices is actually going to believe in it the way that these people do. And it's your job to make sure that that happens. And I know it wasn't you on those committees at those times as you
can say, but you still represent that and your track record is pretty low bar. So, we have to hold you accountable and I hope you all hold yourselves accountable for what you are doing.
>> Hey guys, I'm Andy James. I live at uh the corner of Fifth and Dice, 223 Fifth Street Southwest. Be happy to give you my phone number or my email address if anyone wants to talk. Um, so last year, I think it was late December, maybe January, got this notice in the mail
from a traffic calming study with Woodard. I know this, I'll be very short here. Got super psyched because I'm like, cool. Like, we might get a grocery store in Pedmont Housing Alliance is talking about this whole space on Cherry Street. Cool. Anyway, um, I signed up right away. I was like,
"Hey, I could be a block captain." Gave him my phone number, address, uh, email address, everything, which I don't usually like to do. Um anyway, it wasn't until yesterday and actually today is the first time I've even seen the traffic calming or like some additional I saw an article in the paper in June
about this building. Um so I'm kind of like oh wow. Okay. But unfortunately, I have to say that like I've been in this house 10 years and um it's a vacant house across the street from me owned by some folks that have a
nice lovely farm in North Garden and took me three years to call them public works to get the pigeons cleaned out of the house. It's an IP. Um, you know, but then we have people like the Simons who are awesome neighbors are two doors down from me and the
neighbors, our neighbors in between that haven't been here, but like and all our folks in the association, but like I get it like this is happening cuz I've seen FIFA like you guys again 3 years it took me to get pigeons out of a vacant house
with history but forget the history cuz like we have the enslaved labors memorial now so we can all move on, right, Dave did his concert and the Unite the Right went away. So like this building is gonna happen. So I just want to say like you guys like uh you might want to be
careful with like this whole like we're building a community zone for Third Way and amenities and all cuz I think the people in the neighborhood kind of see through some of that language. And then also, um, I'm I could fire my house to any of you guys on this project that are looking for a place or maybe you could
have a parking lot or something because I got to get out of this neighborhood because I can tell how the city is treating this neighborhood now. The Tonsler House made a big deal of it and then you let it go to not you guys. I don't mean that personally, but anyway, I know this is kind of jumbled and
confusing, but I mean, it's like, come on, man. Like I signed up to get notice and I just got noticed yesterday only because there's a sign in front of their house, a puny little sign that you can't see and a city person who's not really even in
charge of any of this stuff named Deborah Willard was nice enough to return a call. So I booked a thing on Friday with Caleb Smith who I think's our new traffic engineer and like I mean whatever this is all really pointless, right? And I'm like, I'm stoked that these people in the room
who, you know, I'd love to be that, but I just know what's going to happen. So again, like third way, wonderful amenities, maybe a coffee shop and a lovely courtyard, assuming it's open to the public and not just the residents of
the building. Um because you know, and um and again, my house is available. Fire sale. I got a cash sale be great if any of you guys are interested. I think you could turn it into a parking lot or somehow incorporate into your building. So, but anyway, thank you. >> Thanks. >> Yeah.
>> Yes, please. >> Hi, everybody. >> Hello. >> I've never been here before. My name is Sher Lynn Kobe Bautell and I live on 7 and a half street 7 and a half street Southwest. I have lived in this neighborhood now for 10
years and we bought the home from our family friend, our chosen kin and he and his family had lived there for 35. I have been really honored to learn about our neighborhood. I want to just echo a few pieces of what's already been said. Um, in terms
of scale and scope, what's being proposed will dwarf the things around it. We're not going to protect those two IPs or IPs. I don't have the language right. We're not going to protect those two little houses. We're going to envelop them with this. They're not going to become part of the fabric of
the neighborhood. They're going to be cleaved off. They're not going to be rehabilitated for the community. They're going to be again enveloped and cleaved off. Another concern I have though is not
just about those two spaces and how they stand independently, but how those two spaces connect to the rest of the neighborhood. the neighborhood isn't just a little block here and there. And again, I'm an anthropologist, not an architect. Um, so forgive my ignorance
with the language, but those those spaces are part of the way that people walk back and forth. When I walk through my neighborhood, I walk through those spaces, but they're spaces that are connected to other spaces. And when I'm in my home in the morning on Sundays, I hear First Baptist Church. And when this
building goes in, it's going to cleave off that historic church from our neighborhood. And it's part of our neighborhood. It's part of the sound of our neighborhood. It's part of the way people walk and move through our neighborhood. It's not just these chunks, right? It's not about protecting
this little chunk and wrapping it up with a big building. It's about preserving the way that all these pieces work together. And so I would just want to bring up to you that when we talk about scale and scope and fit and protecting, we're not protecting that for the community. We're protecting that
for the development. And that development isn't there to promote community in Fville. Tonsler Park and building on Cherry and bringing up the um ideas about community and how we're supposed to serve each other and build each other up that protects our
community. putting in two little buildings that might be storage or a cafe for the residents isn't going to do that. It's going to cleave off the church. It's going to change the sound of the neighborhood. It's going to change the way we walk through the neighborhood. And that's what I'm concerned about. So, I just wanted to
say, please help us to keep investing in our neighborhood. Help us to keep pulling our neighborhood together with coherence and walkways and sounds and community and people and the way we can move through our neighborhood together without having this large chunk in the
middle sort of justified by protecting these two buildings that won't be part of the neighborhood anymore. Sort of pull us apart and work against that goal of building us back together. Okay, that's what I had to say. Thank you. Well, you're gonna hear from another
anthropologist neighbor. Um, I'm Lakshmi Fjord. L A K S H M I F J O R D and I live at the corner of Nal and seven and a half just around the corner from Sher
Lynn. And I want to echo I want Sher Lynn's statements about the atmosphere, the sense of movement, the sense of belonging. I've only lived there a year. My family um my immediate family and my
extended family live on NL and seven and a half and Dice and I was enticed to this neighborhood because the fact that it's so knit the the the people are so friendly. I lived over on Altoont north
downtown. The neighbors were not interactive with each other. There's just such a sense of calling across from porch to porch or calling across the street. My little granddaughters can run across the street. I can run across the
street. We can be playing. They can learn to ride their bikes. I have a huge concern about the scale and what this will do. This is a walking neighborhood. We talk to each other. We stop in front of each other's houses. And when you put
again I think people are using the term scale and I I it has multiacets but principally it's so many stories up in a kind of symbolic way those
residents will be looking down on Fville and it's not necessarily that they're looking down in a classist or racist way. They are literally going to be looking down. They're not going to be on the ground. They're not going to be picking up the litter like I do every
single day that gets dropped by people walking through because they won't believe that's their street, but they will have taken over those two streets. So, another thing I wanted to point to was this notion of precedent, which I'm a great believer in because I do a lot
of environmental justice work and we depend on precedents in the legal sense. Right? So now we have the environmental justice act. Okay. Precedent. But the president of the blue moon diner being engulfed by one of excuse me this
is not this is personal ugliest buildings in the city. That's like a zoo. So, I lived in California in the time when the redwoods were like they would have cut down all
the redwoods, but they would have a visual of the last redwoods, you know, that you could kind of see um through. Of course, this is a teeny blue moon diner engulfed. It doesn't have any place there. It seems ridiculous.
So please, I know I know your your architects and landscape architects, you know this much better than I do, but that's that's just faux history. That's like zoo history. That's not real in place holding on to history. No matter
what they do, whether the buildings are separate, which is good. I'm glad they're not backing up on it and building on to them, but that isn't the point. These are zoo buildings. They're not this it's not um a preservation of
history. So please um I don't know if these are useful to your decision, but thank you for this opportunity. >> Thank you. [Music] Hi, my name is Wendy Ga. I'm an organizer at FAR. Um, I first just wanted to thank you all for listening to
the residents of West Haven and Tenth and Page at the August Vet and I urge you all to listen to the Fville residents today and take seriously how this monstrous building will further gentrify and tower over this historically black neighborhood and also those two tiny homes that you all are legally obligated to consider. I
understand the V's perview is supposed to be limited, but the reality that we're all living with is that you all have been tasked with the duty that you didn't anticipate because of blind spots and oversightes in the zoning code. And if that's hard for you to sit with or grapple with, um, the residents of FIL are facing a gigantic concrete wall and
students in their neighborhood that none of them anticipated having to live with in their backyard. You all are the last and only city body between historically black and low communities like West Haven, Tenth and Page, and Field. and these ginormous profit-seeking byite buildings that will always be for
students. The city's economic analysis has said so itself at the heights of six, seven, eight stories and above. Student housing leased by the bedroom is the only kind of housing with enough rent per square foot that will make a profit. I realize that this is a zoning issue. Community members and residents
have been working and organizing day in and day out, showing up to every possible city meeting to make noise about these massive mistakes in the ordinance because they have to be. Their lives and their homes are at stake. But until we get it changed, we need the Bar to help us by using all the power and
tools you have to recommend maximum design improvements and when the time comes, deny COAs to developments that have real material negative architectural and design impacts on communities below them and also the two tiny houses in this case. So the decision we are asking you to make is also entirely in line with the BA's
perview. I also just wanted to remind that several of you actually did vote for the current zoning ordinance that we're dealing with. Um, and you all have publicly admitted remorse for doing so. So, I would also argue that it is your moral responsibility to actually go above what your current authority on the
BAR allows you to do because you are responsible partially for all of the threats to this neighborhood that these people are voicing to you. Uh, Miss Joy Johnson, the FARboard chair, cannot be here tonight, but she has asked me to say a few um a few words on her behalf. She wanted to voice her absolute and
unwavering solidarity with FIFA. She also wanted me to say that she has been looking and waiting for BA member Sher Lewis to join us at city council to fix the zoning code. So please come to city council with us on November 5th. >> Thank you. Just want to be clear
everybody. The uh the B did not vote on the zoning ordinance. >> I did >> as a member of the planning commission. Yes. Okay. Okay. >> Go ahead. Please step up to the mic. >> Uh you've heard a lot from uh my neighbors tonight. We've heard from the
>> Could you just Paul Reer live at 211 Fifth Street Southwest. I've lived there for over 10 years. My property backs on to the luxury student housing uh development that is being proposed on 7th Street. My own home will be less
than 15 ft away from the back wall of this land designed building. Um, I've submitted comments in adv advance to the BA on this development which staff distributed last week. Um, you've heard from my neighbors on this.
We are completely united in our opposition to this travesty of a building. I'm suggesting that there is a way within your purview for you to hold this development up. And I don't know whether it will hold it up permanently or
temporarily, but as Wendy suggested, some of you have a moral and all of you have an an obligation to try to protect the historic black neighborhoods of Charlottesville. In short, this building is inappropriate
in its scale, location, and usage. You heard earlier from the architects for the developers who have expertly applied their lipstick to this building, but the building is still a pig.
The architects suggested and discussed in their written pre presentation the importance of honoring and respecting the small Hawkins built cottages. But honor and respect are given freely, not in service to the almighty dollar.
In reality, the proposed development will dwarf, I think somebody used the word engulf, I think that's very appropriate as well, will dwarf and diminish these cottages. The architects have tempted you to focus
on the trees or the benches or the paving or the nice windows or whatever else it might be. I urge you instead of focusing on the trees, you need to focus on the forest. Per the approval process guidelines,
you are required to look at the height, scale, and mass of the proposal and to judge whether it is visually and architecturally compatible with the Hawkings cottages height, scale, and mass.
Further, the Hawkings properties are typical of the historic neighborhood in which they sit. Small, modest homes in a walkable neighborhood. No building is an island and the cottages should be viewed in the context of their neighborhood.
Viewed from that perspective, the proposal is incompatible and these again words from your guidelines with the historic, cultural and architectural character of what is a national historic district of Fifil.
So the core question is whether the development is appropriate for these historic properties and this historic neighborhood. There are many reasons why this is a terrible development proposal.
But I acknowledge that some of those reasons are beyond your purview. However, within your purview, per the approval process guidelines, you have a specific reason to decline to issue a
certificate of appropriateness. Please do so. Thank you for your time and service. [Applause] >> Hi. Uh my name is Frank Bectar. I'm a resident of FILI. I live at 6 and a half
and Dice uh 3046 and a half street Southwest. Um certificate of appropriateness. That's an interesting phrase. As a citizen of Charlottesville, I would think, well, that's a good thing to
need. A certificate of appropriateness. I wonder what you all personally think because it might not be in your actual purview, but what you all personally think and what you think we all should personally think that a certificate
appropriateness of appropriateness might to a large degree have absolutely nothing to do with whether some architectural proposal is at all appropriate to the space in which it's going to be put a neighborhood that's
been described. Appropriate has an interesting related word appropriation. It's almost as if you're discussing a certificate of appropriation. That that area is in FIF. It's not next
to it. It's it's in FIF and it's not going to be given to FIL residents whatsoever. FIL residents very vocally in many ways in many meetings have said along with
the rest of Charlottesville in many cases we need affordable housing. That's the mandate I believe that the city took on about seven or eight years ago. It's a very difficult mandate to accomplish. How can we do it? But so
we're all evolving. This board in some sense might be evolving along with the the the community of Charlottesville as is the community of Fville, a smaller neighborhood that meets monthly. We discuss things. It's not kumbaya there. We have all kinds of different views,
but we are indeed very much united. I haven't heard a single FIFAL person say anything in favor of this development. I think a certificate of appropriateness. I'm I'm not an expert. Must must have to do with appropriate to the code
to the zoning. Is it appropriate to the zoning and appropriate to some narrow questions that were specified by the the uh city staff person? So, um I don't know exactly what it has to do with, but it's odd that it does not have to do perhaps with the
appropriateness of the proposal to a neighborhood. Most people here have objected to the finished building. A little bit was mentioned about actually building the thing. Is it appropriate in the neighborhood of
Fville where at every single entrance to FIville there is a no truck sign that was recently put there by the city traffic coordinator of the city.
Every single why because trucks cannot make certain turns. Diesel fuel was spilled into the city's gutters because some truck tried to make this turn and its diesel c uh cooling system was punctured and and such. And
this was done just uh say four or five months ago. We had those signs put up maybe six or seven months. Is it appropriate for this building an absolutely gargantuan building? It dwarfs anything. It dwarfs the church
there. The church looks like a hut in comparison to a little cottage next to it. Is it appropriate for thousands upon thousands of trucks, not just 10?
Do an AI, do a chat GBT about this project. Seven stories, 600 beds. um on an incline, one-way streets everywhere, narrow streets, railway next to it.
>> Train tracks right there. Just do an AI on that. It will tell you 5,000 truck trips. I do think it's appropriate personally that each of you might be interviewed by
media and I know that you can't necessarily speak and probably wouldn't want to speak in terms of your duty on the board, but I think it would be appropriate that you could say personally I do think that the city should change the zoning there. A
mistake was made. We need to put a halt on this if only for a while. If only for a couple years. Big buildings are being built. The students of UVA have housing. It's being built for them. They don't need it here.
And as as was said at a city uh city council meeting the other day um yesterday perhaps it was uh students have made a survey saying that 89% of them could not even afford to live in one of these buildings.
So thank you very much for listening to me. Thank you. My name is Miles Hingley. I live on Ridge Street. I've lived in Fville for a long time. I lived in Charlesville for almost 50 years. Um, it's not true that
everyone in Fville opposes this building. It's not true that the people that live in this building are going to look down over FIL and be sort of racist and dislike the residents. as was just stated,
>> uh it's not true that you guys should not issue the appropriate certificates for these guys to build this building. Um as developers, they've spent a lot of money, those slides that we looked at were not cheap. The idea that they want
to come in with outside capital into our neighborhood and invest in our neighborhood is a good thing. We are not going to be able to rely on private development if every time a developer tries to build something in
this town, you guys put a huge roadblock in the way. Does anybody know what they just did to the Violet Crown? That was going to be a huge development. Income, taxes, people living, activating the mall. If I owned
a business on the mall, I would want those people there. What happened? The developer pulled pulled out of it. What happened to the development on Tarlton Oak? Is that happening? They pulled out of it probably, right? Those are >> approved. >> Well, is it approved? However, are they
developing it? Those are citywide issues. However, part of the citywide issues for outside development and outside capital as you guys want to. No one is complaining about sevenstory Salvation Army building in our neighborhood. Not a word has been said about the height, the massing, the trees
that are going to get cut down. No, the traffic. Nobody cares. Nobody is upset about that building. That's seven stories, five stories, $3 million of city money. That's all city taxpayer money. What we need to do is encourage people with outside capital to come to
our city, come to our neighborhood, invest hundreds of millions of dollars in building things where people can live. And the last thing I'll say is affordable housing. When you build How many units is this going to be?
>> How many? >> How many? >> Who cares? >> I care how many. >> A lot. However many people move into this building are people they're going to move out of. I live in Fville. I rent places in Fville. If you're a landlord in Fville, you don't want this building. You know why you don't want this
building? Cuz first year med students, people working at the hospital, they're going to rent buildings in Fville for a lot of money. I know people in Fville that rent basement for $1,500, $1,600 to med students. And those people can afford this building.
>> But if we don't build it, guess what? They're going to take up in this historic neighborhood. It's going to be filled with doctors, first year med students, filled with all the people coming in. Guess why they want to live there? They can get on the train and go to New York. They can walk to the hospital. This is a place where we need
more housing. And for you guys, I I've been listening to me. I was listening on Zoom before I got here. I was kind of at work. But what you guys need to understand is setting a precedent where we get to tell who develops in our city based on who the people that are going
to use the property is is a slippery slope. I think it's a bad idea. I think it opens us up to legal challenges. I know you guys are saying like we're not purviewed for that and I know that. But I know these guys are concerned. I really feel for them. If I live next to this building, I would be crazy. I would
be upset. It's that's the way it works. I live in Fville. the zoning code. Everybody here had a sign in their yard that said, "We want more housing. If you want more housing, you have to get people with outside capital to build it. If you
refuse, if you put up blocks, the nimiism, they don't like nimism. I don't like nimism either. We need to build the buildings. We need to get outside capital to pay for it so that we don't have to rely on the city taxpayer to build every single housing unit in this town.
And that's the easiest way to get out of to get affordable housing. The easiest way to get it is to increase supply and price goes down. And if you don't increase supply because you don't like the people that are going to move there, you're not going to get affordable
housing. We can't afford to build affordable housing with taxpayer dollars. So, I think it's I think you guys just need to think about it. >> I need I think you need to say this is the law. This is the zoning code that we all passed that we had debates about. We
can't change the rules on these developers. If we want to change the rules on future developers before they get in the pipeline process, before they spend the money, before they lock up the land, before they spend capital and time, they're just going to go to Ronoke. They're going to go to Lynchber.
They're going to go to places where they don't meet resistance and the resistance isn't followed through on. And it also I they weren't able to come here, but I know I know lots of people in Charlottesville and I know lots of people in
Fville that are not opposed to this building. They want students. They want foot traffic. They want to go to a coffee shop that has critical mass. They want to activate West Main Street. You guys could plant some trees there at some point. We could we could have a a
vibrant, economically active community that does not only involve subsidized housing. >> Thank you. >> And these guys are going to do it. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> My name is Jenny Rydale and I live at 3007th Street Southwest, which is right
on the corner of 7th and Delivan. So, I'm a little like this is my yard that it's happening in, but I don't mean for it to be just about me. Uh, I could move
and we've we've been there 24 years and raised our kids there and they're all gone off now. Um, I just feel like this destroys the neighborhood. It destroys
the feeling of I I've loved this neighborhood since we moved in 24 years ago. It's been an amazing place and not just that it's my yard cuz it is,
but it's overwhelming. It's too much. If it were three stories or four stories or anything less, it would be manageable. I understand. I get the reason for density in Charlottesville. We need to increase
density. We need that. But this is overwhelming, too much, too luxury. It's more than this neighborhood can handle and it destroys the fabric of this neighborhood. >> That's it.
>> Thank you, J. >> Anyone else? Can I just go again? >> I think we're limited one one time. >> To anybody who hasn't spoken, >> please. [Music]
[Applause] >> My name is Earl Hicks. I live in the West Haven community and I live that far from Fightfield and I walk through the Fightfield neighborhood all the time and it's a wonderful neighborhood. lot of
history, historic uh h houses, everything. And for for developers to come and build what they want to build in somebody else's backyard, that's invading of privacy. You know, you know, you got to respect people's yard.
And the buildings that I've seen, same thing is trying to go on in my backyard with the LV Collective. They try to come in our backyard, try to build behind us, try to shut us down, West Haven down,
Faithfield, we all we all family. We all part of the same neighborhood here. I'm from Charlottesville. I born and raised here, Charlottesville here. And to see this happening is very disgusting. And I'm I'm very disgusted with it. And
should that be be happening at all? And this gentleman over here, I respect his opinion, but my opinion is is like this here. We do need affordable housing here, but not in this way. We need to we need to think about families. We need to think about
communities. We need to think about generations. When you when you don't think about those things, you waving out whole families, whole generations
is not right. Thank you. Thank you. Anybody [Applause] on the board want to make any additional comments? >> He's going to start after all that. >> I mean, I
I'm almost happy to speak. >> It helps. I'm going to share a little bit about the B process so the folks understand what next steps are and what but I was going to at least first I think um >> typically after comments the applicant
does you do allow some comment if they have any um the um and I think just go back also are there any questions anything that you had about the project that we want to communicate and then I'll talk about process
>> thanks Jeff Mr. Matthews, would you like to make any response? All the good comments from the public? >> Yes, I do have a response to a number of those and I certainly appreciate how attractive five is. We've done work for
the last year on a really important project in five. Um, and we're very familiar with the um all the planning that's gone on over recent years. But there is and you guys wouldn't know it and other people
listening to it wouldn't know how much of what we've said is just out. Let me just give you a couple of examples. Luxury apartments. The argument that we constantly hear is that these are luxury apartments. Now that's relative. What is
luxury? These apartments will have to compete with all the other apartments including UVA's apartments. So, I think this spin that gets put on these all these developments, not just this one, that they're luxury. That's sort of a fallback argument. Everything somebody
doesn't like, it's a luxury apartment. It's unaffordable. This project, as some of you may know, is likely to generate about 4.5 million towards the city fund for affordable housing. Somewhere in that range. We're not sure yet. 4.5
million in one hit. The current tax on these properties is about $33,000 all of them per year. The future taxes will probably be closer to a million. And you can ask yourself where that million million is going.
It's not going to the developer. Um it's going to the city and it's going to help on affordable housing. The other argument that folks sitting up here could probably make better than I is that this building will help the affordable housing component or the affordable housing in fight by taking
students out of the housing and allowing those houses to be rented at whatever rates they are. This is not this is not a guess and we respect that you you're speaking. You can probably respect others that even though you disagree with them. I think the comments that the fulfill folks made were all good ones. I
might make the same, but some of them are not based. In fact, the thought somebody said it would block out the light. I mean, that's the I don't know where to start on that that comment. It would block out the light. That's just out and
out false. Um, the student housing is the only housing that would make a profit. Where on earth did that come from? This this could be any number of housing types that would make a profit on that site. Displacement. If you've looked at the site and it was
written up by a very noteworthy journalist, they called this site a morabon site. Go and look at the site. No one's been dis displaced, but you're given the impression that that's the case. And people listening in are feeling that
somehow we're we're pushing people out. The site has been neglected for decades. And what I made in the first meeting to B, which I think I it bears repeating is that these houses are protected in the ordinance, but in reality they're not
protected. Look at them. Look at how dilapidated they are. They're only protected in the text. They this these two houses become protected with a project like this or a future project that takes them over and starts to look after them. Many other developers would
have opted it to come with to come to you and ask for their demolition. We didn't. We're restoring them and and sorry, not restoring them, rehabilitating them and using them as part of the overall project. Um the
>> just I mean it will take consider what we haven't had been able to get into both um the houses and look extensively but it will take considerable uh resources to get them to a place where they can be usable and not many
others could actually um do that for those houses. We are looking to to bring them to a point where they can be appreciated. Um >> if it was viable to if it was viable to rent them, they would one of them
wouldn't have sat vacant for 23 years. I mean, the proof is in the pudding there or in the history of it. It's just not happening. Um so anyway, I I think that's all I really wanted to say that some of the facts or or some of the statements just aren't based in facts.
And I urge you to take a balanced view of this. Not to have uh any neighborhood I'm not talking about five foot in five foot in general but any of these neighborhoods to balance your thought not with to balance your thinking on these projects and not just to base it
on those that have the loudest and most aggressive. Just one last comment is it it does the clients do see this as a unique opportunity for this for this project to engage with the street. It is it is
something that they they obviously value um but the history, the scale, the craftsmanship, they want to bring that along with the rest of the the the project. They see this as a as a win-win for for all involved. So that's that's
where they're coming from. >> Yeah, I think that's all. >> Thank you, John. >> Shame. >> No shame. >> I think we should say something. >> Why not three or four stories? >> I would just like to ask that we all keep these comments respectful. This is
a hot topic, but cat calling, name calling, being disrespectful. We're all smart enough to know that there are grave differences in this room. and I don't think it advances anybody's cause to not be respectful right now.
Thank you. >> It's a good point. Thank you, Miss Lewis. >> Shaw, have any comments on further on? >> Sorry, >> I'll I'll go ahead because mine are not relevant to this application. I'm back where I was a couple months ago and I
apologize to my colleagues and Miss Gal, you're you'll hear hear the same thing from me again twice, but I won't take as much time this time. But this application puts us it it basically puts the new zone zoning
ordinance in a light where it's almost untenable. Um, I don't know whether it was predictable by the people that voted for this ordinance, by the neighborhoods that thought that this ordinance was a good thing. Um, I'm willing to admit, as
I said before, that I was part of the problem. I was on the steering committee and I gave up on this ordinance because I thought it was a train that I couldn't catch or stop. And I stepped aside because I just thought it was a nightmare pending. and I was one small
person that couldn't do anything about it. So I have before publicly blamed myself that this new ordinance is in place and I'll you know take blame again for that. Um I think that the next
comments we we should hear from Mr. Warner to tell us what the scope that we have which a lot of you have alluded to some of you don't seem to be quite as familiar with and that is that we have a very narrow scope. Um this is
in some ways um under our ordinance a suitable development because of the ordinance that we just passed. um your some of your issues are not with things that we have a purview
on, but they're with zoning and we don't look at zoning. So, Mr. Warner can go over that. So, and I it's not that I disagree. I actually kind of agree with both sides of this. That's what makes this this consideration pretty hard. Um
I hear the neighborhood. I feel the neighborhood's concerns. I have to say in advance, I'm not sure all that we could do, you know, to to satisfy you just be only because we only and I'll let Mr. Warner do it because
I'm getting tired and I'm not as open as he is on this, but I'll let him tell you what our purview is. I thank you for coming out, including Mr. Hingley for coming out. Um and um hopefully we can be guided to, you know, a wise decision
with the little bit of discretion that we do have here. Um >> that's that's about all I'm just Yeah, >> thanks Louis. And I just want to add that I would like everybody to listen very carefully to Mr. Warner because
there um were a number of um statements made about what we can and cannot control here on the bar um that hopefully um um some of this explanation will um help you to determine what we can and cannot um guide and perhaps even
empower you to you know not look at just um us as the one stop gap in this um um you know and I I think I'd like everybody everybody to know that um um there may be other possibilities of ways
getting yourself heard and maybe changing um the the course of this discussion. So instead of relying just on the bar um there's um um I think um a certain amount of energy that obviously you're you're you're showing we all
appreciate it. the public voice coming out. That's very important in this uh probably the most important thing. Um but in order to um get your point across and have a chance and I wouldn't say that you don't have a chance like some
of you um mentioned but to have a chance um you know um look at all the avenues um that you have with that Mr. Wernner. >> All right. So, well, let's I will say and I wasn't going to lecture about the the the purview necessarily, but it just
share some of the process so the folks know how they what a certificate appropriateness is that and I'll just say, you know, I've I've lived in this community almost 30 years. Um, some of you may even heard my name from where I used to work where for almost 20 years I
was a a key troublemaker for the Western Bypass and things like that. So, I I know all about um getting uh about advocacy and getting people involved. And I'm I'm thrilled to death to see I used to joke that no one comes to the
bar meetings. In the last two, we've had we've had more people speak and participate than we've had in the prior at least uh eight years that I've been working for the city. But I I am a longtime city resident. I I live in a beat up old house a few blocks from here that I talked my wife into buying. Uh,
so some of you your stories sound very similar. My kids have grown and gone. Uh, my son's in finance and in lives in Manhattan, but he says he can't afford to move back here. So, I get that. I understand. I wish they would. Um I also
um something that when I was hired, some of you knew Mary Joyce Scalla and when I was hired I we were working on the comprehensive plan and and I sat in six meetings and I listened to people say over and over and over every neighborhood in this town,
different socioeconomic uh different race, everybody said the same thing. I love my neighborhood. Please how do we how do we protect our neighborhoods? And you know, I'm I'm a good city employee, so I probably shouldn't be saying that, but um I feel
to be honest with you all, yeah, we get it. I get it. I understand it. Um and um uh I can't comment on this ordinance. Um but it's um it this was this is what the
city's going to have to deal with. We've got we want housing. we but yet how do we do it that in a manner that's that's um that people will accept in their neighborhoods and I don't have the answer to that now um so as far as uh
just to answer the certificate appropriateness I understood the point and reason for asking that it was that was that was I mean that's a great way to present the case but just the simple answer is that everything that we do um in the city with our historic districts
and the bar um comes down from the Secretary of the Interiors and so the Secretary standards for rehabilitation of historic buildings and it's a rather clunky wonky big thick binder of what to do in certain things. You know what to do when
you have a new this next to an old that. And the word that's throughout is that it's appropriate that the new is appropriate to the old. So, uh it's not a great term, but certificate of appropriateness. And I even hate saying that. um it's just too long. But it
simply reflects that uh a judgment on the part of this appointed body. They they don't get paid. I we get them I try to get them pizza every once in a while, but that's all they get. Um but in their judgment based on the design guidelines,
which are and these guidelines are problematic as they may be right now are they are we have to update them, but they're approved by council. So council approves the guidelines and then the members and we're missing four of our members tonight. Um they're charged with
applying these design guidelines and yes it may seem subjective but making a judgment does this request comply is it consistent with is it appropriate uh within the design guidelines. So that's why you know Mr. Reader I know you and I
have talked and some of us have spoken. It's um the the argument to be made. Uh all of the arguments are valid and it's good to hear, but what B can base its judgment on is the section of the code that says here's what you are allowed to evaluate and then these design
guidelines and they're online. You can look at them. They're not it's not a it's not a score book. You don't go through and say you must hit everything or you know you have to hit 10 out of 20. It it it's a and in fact you you >> but Jeeoff you mentioned um I would just
like for you to reiterate what you mentioned um at the beginning of the of the meeting which is um our design purview is on the um historic districts. It's on the historic district and the designated properties. And >> so the historic district, the main
street, the district, >> right? We have eight historic districts. Uh West Bane, downtown, North Downtown, Wartland Street, the corner. Um >> and Fightville is not a historic district. I was surprised actually to find out just tonight that it was um not
made a historic district by the residents. >> The residents did not support um it being locally designated. And this is some time ago, 2016. >> So, yeah. And >> and nobody can be blamed for that. That I mean, there are lots of reasons why a
neighborhood would choose not to do that, but there but there are similar neighborhoods as we know in the city that did choose to go that route. And that would give us a little bit more purview. Um, and I'll let Mr. Warner explain that because the only reason we're looking at this is that there are
these two very historic structures. Um, like, >> right? An individually protected property. My house is an individually protected property. And I've joked that back in the 90s, I think the city went around and looked at all the old 100 plus year old houses that looked like
they were falling over and designated them um in order to protect them. Um as my wife said, the night we moved in and I was dragging stuff out to the dumpster. She said, "How much of this house we just bought are you planning to keep?" So, um, it's, uh, you know, it it
it's, uh, I get it as far as an IP goes and it's but the reason they're designated outside of districts is they're not part of a continuous district. That's one of the things that makes this a little bit complicated about. >> In other words, the only reason why we're it's even in front of us right now is because of those two houses. It's not because of the district,
>> right? >> It's a bit and there's a difference there. >> Yeah. the local district only a local designated uh only the city council designation brings the BAR into having design review purview. Um North Belmont neighborhood is on the national register
but it is not on the na it is not locally designated. We have no purview. Fville national register not a local district. You all don't have purview. The other piece I wanted to touch on is that the next step in this process >> actually can I just pause there because there was there was something else that
we discussed um earlier. >> Um some of the our guidelines say that we can look at the impact of a certain development visav the rest of the district. Unfortunately there is no rest of the district here because Fville is not an architecturally
architectural control district. So some of the guidelines for instance I think Mr. Reer had had recited some we're being told that those mayor those those don't help us to either confirm this application or deny because they
don't apply because we're not allowed to consider the impact on the district. I'm not I'm just saying that people have said this. I don't know if it's I I'm not taking the position. I'm just saying that this was presented to us and that it would be a lot easier if this entire
development if all of your houses were were part of an ADC district. Um >> can I make make a point? >> Our our our purview would be stronger. We're we're being told that. So I want to >> Yeah. >> I I am a member of the Fell community.
Um my understanding and other people may know better than I do. So please speak up if you do. I believe to be, you know, considered an ADC district, people, residents of the neighborhood have to have a certain level of
means to make modifications to their house, right? So, you are required to have an architect. >> No, that's not >> Well, well, a designer. No, >> no, >> no. The only thing that needs to be done is a historic survey and >> Oh, but no, no, no. But but if we were
to be want to be in a historic district, if we were to decide that that would mean the residents would want to in order to make changes to their homes have to go through the process of a design review >> if they were if they were designated as contributing.
>> Correct. Right. So I think that's the reason that Ffeld opted not to do that because most of the residents in the neighborhood wanted to. Yeah. >> So, so therefore, wouldn't it logically follow that like you have to have a certain level of affluence to be in an ABC district,
>> right? So, so how does Fville like have punitive? There also >> there's a c certain punitive nature of that like we're not >> historic conservation districts >> which is another tool which doesn't require
>> we don't we only basically look at demolition and we approve almost anything that's done in a historic conservation district and that was another I'm not sure if that was an option at the time I think it came later >> there's still a level of design like drawings that have to be done right there's
>> no with the So to answer your question, so we did a historic survey of Tenth and Page Neighborhood and uh um it was the when I looked at everything that's been surveyed, it was the hole in the donut. We did that in 2021 and uh Department of Historic Resources was really enthused
about it and it was great. I mean was deemed eligible for the National Register, but and I've had a lot of people say, "Well, why don't we make that a local district?" And I I've I think that if the folks of Tenth and Page came and said, "We want to do it," I would listen. But the thought of
someone asking, you know, I I I have a choice of fixing my roof. I mean, I could say about my own house. I have to fix a metal roof that's 40 50k. I'd love to put a asphalt roof on there. I don't know. So, what I do instead is I put duct tape on my roof. But the the reality, so there is a I think there's a
reality to people, we would have to to consider another district. You'd have to give some thought to what that means. And now the last district that was established was the Woolen Mills. Woolen Mills and then Rugby Road. Those were conservation districts. I think this in 2017. I would say at this point council
is not going to approve anything unless there's overwhelming and I mean overwhelming if not universal support. But that that that's so my my to be helpful to folks here is that the process that you all have available the applicant will um we have another we
meet monthly every third Tuesday same time um 5:30 the uh applicants are have to submit something um I think 3 weeks prior to the to the next meeting uh and then I have to determine if it's if I can get on the agenda if it's a complete
application. So when something this moves forward as a formal request, um we used to do the city used to require mailing to all the adjacent property owners that doesn't require that anymore. All you have to do is stick a sign in the ground. So it does put a burden on you all to check
the city calendar. Um you know, go on there at the beginning of the month. Uh well, we try to post our um >> the sign the night before. Pretty lame. >> The night before. >> Yeah. You had to post up and then we were like, what? post there and you didn't put it up until the night time of
the night before. >> Well, this is not this. It wasn't this one. Oh, well, it wasn't this one because we don't post. >> Yeah. >> Sorry. Yes. >> Yeah. So, yeah. So, we have to put something >> problem with the new zoning ordinance. Go to council.
>> I don't know why we took away the mailing requirement. Neighbors should know what's happening next to them. It's ridiculous. >> We also in the city don't get the emails about it. So, it's >> Neither do I. That's why you you know me now and you ping me and but you look at
the the on the city calendar and see what's on the the B agenda the um cuz yeah like where do you put this 11 by7 sign a project like this but the next process then is it would come to the B we'd have a meeting like this it would
be more formal um we would have the give and take uh as we've had tonight the B would make a decision all decisions all formal decisions by the board of architecture review and um are appealable to council. So um if
the BA approves a COA for this thing and let's say has some um conditions uh says all right we approve this but we want the building to be you know only two stories tall and be made of of of bricks. Um the applicant can appeal
that. So they can even appeal an an approval any agrieved party in the city can appeal. So if we the B approved it, a community can appeal that approval to city council. Um if the B denied it, the
applicant can approve that appeal that to city council. So in many ways a COA is is really nothing more than a recommendation that after 10 days becomes official. So, it's uh we're going through that right now with B. We've actually had several appeals this
year. I think I don't think we had five appeals in the last 10 years, but this year primarily about the demolition of historic buildings. Uh you all are following possibly the the building over on Wartland Street, which um uh the developer once demolished. The B denied it. An appeal to council. Council also
denied it. So the um the avenue for participation is said as you've done tonight and I and again it's it's great to have it I think but under I only I only urge everyone to stay within the BAR's purview because we're the BA let's
say to deny this project and say I you know I just don't like students or I don't want this here or there that that is grounds for that that that easily for the when council gets it to say the B did not stay within its purview because
that by its very nature the appeal is to say what did the BAR do right or wrong within its purview. It's not a I appeal it because I disagree. It has to have >> and just to give an example of that like there were a lot of good comments about what you know what the building is going
to be used for. I mean that that's a logical um issue to bring up um especially for you all who are going to have to live next to whatever it is that's going to be built there. Um but um we can't comment on if it's a student
housing or luxury housing. That's we'd have no say in that per our guidelines. >> So that's not >> when I bring that up. It's just because I think it's important for you to be educated on what we do. I think you can be more impactful to understand what our limitations are and and I think I hope
that's why maybe this dialogue was was um maybe more one of the most enlightening things for you tonight is to get a better understanding of where where we sit and you know what our jurisdiction is. I hope anyway. >> Yeah. So that's I I think that's the point is the B could um I know some
would hope say we just disagree with this the zoning we don't like the zoning. We're not happy with the direction it's going. um that is easy grounds for the applicant to appeal. The BAR, you know, what's the reason for the appeal? The BAR went way outside its lane. Its decision was inappropriate and
did not uh were not consistent with its code or its charge. So, um so yes, you may hear me sometimes nudging folks back in their lane a little bit. I'm just but I'm trying to keep that um the more we
and I'm not one to color in the lines but the more we color in the lines then we have the validity of the decision if something is appealed or is it it is challenged. So so that's and I'm not I know the applicant's going to probably be upset with me. I'm not trying to road map how to say no, but that's the means
to an end relative to a project like this is is for folks to stay involved to to to to offer the comments and certainly, you know, continue to express to council and the planning commission concerns you have about the zoning, but to ask the BAR um
things within the guidelines and within the criteria for their decision. and then um they make their decision based on their judgment and then that action is appealable to council. Uh we do not get
the final say. Uh these folks don't I don't get a vote so I don't does that help? No. Does that make it doesn't make Well, I know it's not saying no. I mean, but at least there's a process and that's
the best I can offer you. I think there were also some comments, some very valid comments about the height, the scale, the massing and the character of the building. Um, which I think is definitely within our purview. Um, so I I agree that this building is much too
big uh in relation to the IP properties. um it very much dwarfs them and it could it could react uh in a more um responsive and sensitive way and to the neighborhood, the adjacent neighborhood.
Um um so th those are my I've said it before, but I'll say it again tonight. So >> Carl, did you have a comment? >> Um sure. Um >> not to call you out.
>> Yeah. No, I'm fine. Always >> You always do >> always have a comment. Um, so I just do want to start by just saying um I just to make it clear I'm not necessarily remorseful about voting for the zoning code. I did vote for it. I do see that there are some some issues with the zoning code, but I do stand behind it as
overall beneficial for the city and it came out of a very very long comprehensive plan process. Um there are some things that need to be fixed. Um the city is currently working on that. Um, one of the things is, um, you know, the the guidelines, um, set up by the
housing advisory committee, uh, inadvertently seem to be encouraging student housing and we are, I I understand staff is working on that. Um, but, um, back to this project. Um so one of the
if we were to lop off the portions of the building that are not on the IP site um I don't believe there would be any material difference to this project as far as as far as fill is concerned. It would still be the same building that you guys are all seeing. Um, so again,
the only reason we are reviewing it is because there are portions of this building that overlap the properties that those IPs are on, those two little houses. Um, and honestly, I think that um, should they just be left out of the project
would probably be detrimental to those individually protected properties. So um in that sense um it's >> get your handle in as far as what >> as far as um they would remain in their current state of disrepair
um and um disuse and I'm not sure if uh you know perhaps someone could purchase them and turn them into each one could become a little house or something um but they would be sitting in front of and wrapped by this large sevenstory building. Um,
so overall I'm, you know, as far as the building itself, I'm not a fan of the materiality. I, the first chance I get on when we update our guidelines is to remove fibers as an acceptable material for large buildings. Um, so when you bring this back for its final review, I
hope that you will come back with some information to tell me that this fiber cement will will last. If it's seven stories up in the air, I want to know that it's not going to have to be repainted at some point. or I mean if it is that there's I guess at some point it will always have to be repainted but at least it'll take a while. It won't
mildew which is what I'm seeing in a lot of the larger buildings around town. Um this stuff was advertised as lasting forever and it's not a forever material. Um it is a very residential material. So if um the information I know you've got cut sheets in here, but if there's any
warranty information or anything that could come with that I think that would be helpful. Um, you also mentioned vinyl windows and our guidelines do discourage those and it would be great if you could come back with some information on why we should approve those vinyl windows, why they should be an exception. I know
we've done that in the past, so I'm not saying it's impossible, but it just would be nice to know why these windows are >> uh bring in next month um or when you come back with your final review. Um, so that's just my general comments on
portions of the building that I I'm not I I think could use some some work. The uh renovation of the existing buildings, um, I think you've this is a very thorough application and I think you very carefully considered how to how to do that. Um, one thing, um, for the
windows, you just put our guidelines in there. Um, and I just want to know that if it sounds like you're just going to repair the windows, but if you end up replacing any, I would just like to know that those go to staff and they meet our guidelines and they're not vinyl. Um, I think it's most important for these historic houses. I think you understand
that, but it's um covering our bases here. Um, I'm fine with the uh the opening up of that back wall to put to put the um the serving counter in. Um, I I I think that that's acceptable for um bringing some life back to these buildings and making them useful.
Um, if there is a way to uh flip the location of the sidewalk and the planting strips so that this planting strip is against the street in maybe on Delivan, wherever. If there's a way, I know you've got probably utilities you got to work around. I'm sure you've got
plenty of excuses. If there's a way it would provide more room for those trees, which would provide the trees, room for them to grow bigger and hopefully make this building a little less impactful when you're down on the street. Um, it does look like you've got
room on Delivan, but again, that's you've got the site plan that I I I'm not I can't see that. So, um, let's see. Um, and just for the sake of the public, um, this project does still need to go through zoning and development review. So, you know, the
fire department's going to look at it, traffic engineering is going to look at it. Um, they'll be looking at, you know, um, how the project is staged, where roads are closed, any of that. So, I'm not sure if there's an opportunity for public to comment on that, but there is,
um, it is going to be reviewed. So just because you can put a sevenstory building here doesn't necessarily mean you can put a sevenstory building here if it doesn't work with you can't physically build it. Um
so that's that's my commentary. I public's not going to like this. I I I think if you did those few things I would be ready to vote approval for this next month. Those are a lot of good nuts and bolts. Oh, go ahead. >> I want to uh thank the applicant. I
think they've done a excellent job of bringing a whole bunch of information, giving it to us and letting us look at that more more. though I want to thank the people from Fville and the and the
neighborhoods for coming out and speaking their heart and talking about how they care about their neighborhood and how they see about it. It's very very important for for me sitting on
this this board to be able to see this in a larger context and I really appreciate everybody's heartfelt comments. Moving on, I have some questions that are unrelated to any of this. Uh, so if
you wish to >> mean the application, >> you all can stick >> application at all. >> No, I have some V business. >> Sherry's got a lot of notes. >> I I did take notes on every thing that was said with public comments. I tried to note your names and um I'm not a fast
notetaker, but I'm a slow listener and a slow noteaker, but I tried to capture in my notes all of what everyone said this evening. I would say that um and I'm uh less prepared to give comments. I didn't know we we were hoping you would ask us
questions tonight and I don't know if that was clear. Staff told us that that would be the case. I know that you I know that this packet has been you know there's been a lot of work that's gone on it which I appreciate. I appreciate the information about the two houses and
a little bit answering questions from our August and our June meeting about how those will fit in, how they'll be enveloped by the development plan, by the project. Um, a lot of information about what you're doing to them. I don't
think this is just maintenance or repair. uh in order to get to a place where these are incorporated into your development p plan, a lot has to happen with them. Um you know, I'm not one of them. I'm not sure if I would walk into today. You know, at least I wouldn't go
on the second story. Um so, um you know, realizing that, thank you for that information. I do I continue to have questions as does Mrs. Tab, Miss Tavony about massing, about height, about impacts. I appreciate the comments from
the neighbors about natural light being blocked. I do think that that is an issue and that should be a guideline um that we follow. Um there have been buildings in the city and some of them were mentioned by in the public comments that have really changed
quarters in our city and neighborhoods in our city permanently for as long as those buildings will be there that those places have been changed permanently. So, I I think that's a huge consideration for us. I think, you know,
the the the big factor here is that is just the quality of the neighborhood. It's, you know, it's not like some other neighborhoods that might might be able to bear a plan like this being shoehorned into it. It's it's a
really delicate neighborhood with a lot of beautiful historic homes, but they are one and two stories. you know, maybe they're two stories with a gabled roof, so give it two and a half, but um we're not seeing three and four stories story
buildings here. So, and it's it's just it's just a really difficult um fit. I also have a lot of concerns about the impact that this building will have, and I hope the applicant will be able to address this on First Baptist Church. Um
I don't think that's that that facade. I don't think we've ever gotten an elevation of it um much less in context. And maybe I'm wrong, but John, I just can't remember that you brought that to us. Um it might be good to bring that to
us or you can send it to all of us as a reminder that you gave it to months two meetings ago. But um that's a that's a historic asset. I'm sorry. >> We do have the elevation facing the church. Which elevation are you talking about? That would be the one. Is was it
in the packet? Okay, I'll look I'll look again. Um I am concerned though. I I don't consider the railroad to be your a joining parcel. I consider that church to be your adjoining parcel and its impacts on it. Um could be great. So I
would like to have some consideration. And I mean you know we're not the only ones who consider the guidelines. I just want to remind the applicant and everybody else this. You can address them as well. I mean, and I think I think much of your application has done a good job doing that and pointing out
guidelines that that are favorable to your application, but if you could look at them and let me know how you get to be next to that historic church and that historic asset. There aren't many like them in our city. So,
um, if you could address that as well as the as the impacts to this neighborhood, that would be great. Um, I don't really have any other more specific comments per our guidelines. Nobody, not everybody can be Carl and be as thorough as he is.
>> Thanks, Miss Lew. >> I'm sure that's a good thing. >> I think that I think the overriding issue here is um, you know, this is a zoning issue. Unfortunately, it's um I mean this is this is why we're here
because this is by right and um a number of you said what do you think personally? Um I mean personally um I'm along with um the group that doesn't think this is appropriate. I mean appropriateness speaks for itself.
Um and I think given the um the nature of that of the your kind of precious historic neighborhood um zoning has sort of failed in that um you know um an area like where this is going should have
some kind of a buffer um um consideration you know to allow for the a massing and the scale that um is more in keeping with the this neighborhood. it. Um I mean if we were to um um
evaluate this in any other ADC, we would be very specifically talking about the massing the scale and how it relates to the neighborhood. We're not doing that. I hope you're all aware of why we're not doing that right now. Um but this is the conundrum sort of that that we're in. Um
and I think it's just that's an important um point to be made. Um I think there were also precedents um um you know the projects on Main Street um which actually are some of them are good projects. I don't I I disagree with some of the comments made that the Blue Moon
Diner project is the worst building in town. But that that's personal opinion and it doesn't really matter here. Um I think the distinction what I want to make is that those projects are different and that they are on a um on a busy commercial connector. This is a
different location. And again, this is a I find this to be a zoning uh error. And that's all I'm going to say right now. >> I I think we probably do owe it to the applicant to say um because they're going to come back with something. >> Yes.
>> And they're going to want to know what it takes to get approval. Um so, and we're missing four people, unfortunately. So, I probably would recommend emailing the four that are missing. Um, but I mean as far as you guys are concerned,
are you willing to approve what comes back to us next time if it looks like this or I keep getting stuck on the fact that there's a building uh recently completed by um the architects in Stonefield that looks very similar to this and I I can't
square in my mind how that architecture goes in Vville like next to Costco and next to Delivan Street. I just can't I can't square that in my mind. And so I would have a hard time approving this project if it stays the same scale and
character that's shown. >> I have no problem with the building as it stands alone. Um, you know, I I I have I have utmost praise for the presentation and the thoroughess and and um you know um
everything that's come in front of us. Um but I agree that there's there's something about the location that this doesn't I mean honestly just doesn't sit right with me. >> Do you do you need to see a significant reduction in massing to approve it? >> That's what I'd like to see.
>> Okay, Sherry. >> Yes. >> Same thing. And I would like to see a reduction in the massing. >> I don't know if significant is what I would say because I'm not certain what our ability is, but I'd say I'd say yes.
>> So you've got four that are saying reduce the massing. You've got one that's saying give us some quality assurance. And then you've got four people around here that you probably need to check in with. >> Okay. I think that's clear.
>> Thank you. >> I mean, ultimately, I would hope that the um the city could look at zoning and this becomes a zoning issue. It's it's difficult and from our perspective to happen >> make a an evaluation because we're making an evaluation on a IP.
>> I probably let me get I probably should say one thing. So obviously with a project that's this expensive that we don't just come in and hope for the best on these. We look at options. We look at all sorts of options. What if you if you vote favorably? If you don't
vote favorably. Taking the floor off would would kill this project. So uh that's what you would that's what you would be voting for. you would be voting for which would be totally contrary to the comp plan, the zoning ordinance and what at least
the five or six things. So I just want you to realize what you're doing and you have it balanced. I think um Miss Tabony is totally biased on the whole project. Um probably should excuse yourself or recuse yourself. Um, but um I just want
you to be aware that these we've been working on this for a year and to take a floor off for a year would uh would really really kill the project. And I I think we'll do we'll we'll go back and um discuss with the client what
he wants to do, but I want you to know what you're potentially doing. And if he walks, if that firm walks away from it, as you said, Carl, you're back having this these two buildings dilapidated. Uh, and probably next time you come back, one of them may not be there. I
mean, if you've looked at them, I think some of you walked around this site. Anyway, I think that's all, but I thank you for the time, your time, and I thank for the comments from the five neighborhood. It's all it's all good information. We take it to heart. >> Thank you, Mr. Matthews. All good
points. Thank you. Can I say one more thing? I'm so sorry to go back here, but um I I was shocked that um Mr. Matthews said something about a member's bias and I just for public because we've been pretty much
this has been a dialogue all night. Um we are required to recuse ourselves. The standard is pretty low. It's when we basically have a financial interest in the outcome of the decision. Miss Tavity, I'm sure does not. Um, we all have biases, we all have opinions.
That's one of the reasons that, you know, besides professional expertise, which I don't have, we were appointed to this board, you know, that we could make a difference, that we may our biases and differences may be all over the gamut. Um, but that that we can't divorce
ourselves as decision makers and we are unpaid. We're not like council or planning commission. We are completely unpaid. We did get pizza tonight, though, and it was really good. Um, thank you. Um, but I I don't think that, you know, if somebody expresses that
they don't approve of or won't v vote in favor of something or um or may may con support it that that proves any sort of bias. So, um I just think that was inappropriate. Um I'm sorry, my friend,
Mr. Matthews, but I have to point that out. I I don't think that's a good strategy for you to take at any of us. I'm sorry. >> Yes. Would you like to make a comment? >> Just that there's been a lot of really great conversation and I thank you for
your time. Um I think there have been a lot of really valuable and important opinions expressed and I recognize that some of those are more or less relevant to the work that you are able to do. I also want to just say how much I appreciate speaking about the works that are relevant and what you can do as well
as your own personal ideas and values and I just don't want us to end the night on a false dichotomy. Right? As Chris mentioned that either this goes exactly the way it is or things going to fall apart. I think what's clear from tonight is that there are so many different options for us to work
together and think together and find a path forward together that I just felt really passionately about saying let's reject that whole psychology. >> Thank you. I think that's a good I think that's a good place to to end the meeting. >> Well, not to me that
>> well end that portion. >> Jeff needs to talk at us for an hour. You guys can stay or not? Never. >> Never. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So, just a couple quick quick updates.
Um, >> how you doing? >> Sorry, I just like figured out I know it came off. >> I mean, I get why [Music] it is, but it that's not why we don't
exactly understand. >> Thank you very much. That's not the case. >> We did the most service. Maybe >> we could have sat here. >> It's not. >> No, thank you. I should have said
something. I was just like I was like I was like >> he rolled me out of that all the way down. Not just heard that, >> you know, it's right. >> This was funny because we used to do this in the 19.
>> I don't know for sure. I think it's >> I don't think >> it's very polite. >> You do have my contact information, right? >> I think we laid it out as we could.
It's just been a while since I don't know what >> was I would really have to do this again. So they take off the limitation. I mean that could be that >> which I think >> I know Tier What does my text
go through? under. We don't >> know. >> It was right there. Snake a bit. You I I was afraid to say. Were you looking for that? >> Come back in and say hi to us. >> Have a good Have a good evening. >> Yeah.
>> All right. Quickly. um uh 1301 Wland Street. We didn't meet in September. I wasn't able to really give you guys an update. Um but as you know, on September 2nd, council uh met and they um up I don't want to say upheld, but they denied uh the request. So the the
applicant um is in the process of um looking at their the remedy. Um it's it's now in the city attorney's office, but there is um I'm not aware of taking it to court, Sherry, that we don't have any information about
that. Nothing's been we haven't been served. >> Good. But the there is a provision in the ordinance that allows them the owner and we've only done it one other time and Sherry was involved so she's my expert witness but the uh ordinance
allows if if the council has denied a demolition uh appeal then they can the owner can make the property available for a period because of the value for a period of 12 months after which and they have >> if nobody buys it they can do
>> they basically can demolish it by right. >> That's hopefully that >> but there's a but the and the criter the requirement is that offered at a a um a reasonable uh market. >> What's the name of the owner on that? for sorry >> seven development
>> something yeah seven something >> development >> not lucky seven but yeah seven >> um so I will it has reached a point where >> I'm not communicating with the applicant the applicant's talking to city attorney so I attorney to attorney >> are they trying to sell it now or what
are they doing >> that's my understanding I just I'm just giving you that that is that's where the discussion is going um and uh but I'm I'm now a fly on the all of the conversations and I'll share with you what I know as we go.
>> Ticket for this whole year >> period. >> I don't I >> What? What are you talking about? Be great if it >> I I will let you know when I know more. >> What? Wait a minute. What did you just say? I'm sorry. I missed it. >> Is the clock ticking?
>> You mean on the year? >> Yeah. >> Well, they I mean, but they have an appeal, so it doesn't matter. >> But they do have it for sale for before. So um so I will keep you in the loop as
I hear more. Uh but they are pursuing a remedy through the code that would allow them at the a given period of time um if the property hasn't sold to uh request a year. I think it's less than a year and we probably need to stay on top of
that so that we can >> advocate if it gets close to that that maybe there's somebody who's got some money. >> Um There's somebody who has the money who wanted to, but it's for sale now for >> 4 million. And well, as long as we're
talking about this, I might just say it. That person who was interested in buying it maybe for what the developer bought it for closer than that, but not for four million blames us because the developer thinks he can sell it for 4
million because we approved an apartment building on it and he thinks that vests him or any subsequent buyer with the ability to put something on that property. And because of vested rights, you know, for a little while that might be true anyway.
I'll check out I can read I can find the um ordinance and read it out. >> Well, I can read the ordinance and I I'm just saying that I will share information as I I I'm comfortable sharing it when things go lawyer to lawyer. I um and that's some of what
happened a little bit this evening was there were uh a lawyer was questioning um our process. Um and once that happened, it took my discussion with John. I couldn't I once you have a lawyer contacting us I I can't
>> John had a lawyer >> there were questions that were of that appeared to be of that nature. So that was some of what was complicating bringing this forward tonight. So I I so I just saying when when I'm sharing with you I'm sharing with you what I can I'm
not withholding anything but I'm I'm this is a it it's reached a situation where the city attorneys involved and the the applicants attorney are involved. So I'll I I I keep my opinion myself. Um the >> what's happening for Seventh Street? >> No. 1301.
>> Okay. >> Was it was a question it was a questioning the policy of for seventh street relative to questioning the policy of what needs to be done before something can be taken to the bar and uh I I had no problem bringing to you guys
for discussion. Now uh so that's where we're on Wland Street. Um uh hopefully I'll know more by the end of this week. Um the um and I yes Sherry the questions you said about the valuation and what that's based on. Um I might have some
more clarity on that. Uh but the >> that's fair hostage for reasonable >> it's a determination per the code. It's a a reasonable market value something. It's a >> fair market value market value.
>> So who makes that determination? I don't but that's I use >> it didn't get changed >> not me. >> So um the second thing is um >> I I I think everybody but one person I I
cross out the CLG training requirements but um going to make sure we cover those better next year. Uh that it's a report that's due >> a new person help them to not make it. >> I they could be exempted out. >> Well I they haven't helped. You guys
have done far better than anybody any B I've had. So I think we're in pretty good shape. But the reason I was pushing is because it I have to track I have to turn that report in in January and that's when we end up going well gosh what did I do a year ago. So thank you. >> You sending us you know multiple links
>> right and everybody. So I I very much I appreciate what you all did. >> I think it's the person the person's new on here for >> No, it was actually someone that's been on here a while is >> cing causing me grief. All right. Second thing, the um
>> can can tonight count as CLG for next year? >> There was a lot of learning tonight. >> You know, >> I learned a lot. >> It's possible, but I would have to say that I prepared it and I I winging it. I don't think particularly counts, but yeah, maybe count as 15 minutes. the um
very briefly Kate mentioned to you at the beginning or the early meeting we we have a new thing I'm not sure what to call it whereby your attendance at meetings is is is taken it and it and it's recorded available to the public so the public
can check and see who who came to the meetings who can't um we don't have to get into it now but I'll explain all that but we do have in our bylaws we ex excused absences unexcused absences. >> We did have a member, this is before a
lot of board, but there was a member uh the minutes that I asked for um just three years ago. I was reading down them and one of the members like last name was there and I was like, who is that? That's right. >> And then I remember that was the member that only came to like one meeting.
>> One. That was his only meeting as the minutes that he asked for. He like council appointed him, >> never came like it was like a joke about how many creative things he could make up to not be at our meetings. >> It was Yeah, it was pretty bad. So yeah,
it was that was resolved. But just so in case you >> I literally didn't rec I was like who who is that? >> So your Yeah, your friends and neighbors say I saw you didn't go to that meeting. This is some something that will be public and and we'll we'll we'll go more into that.
>> The um the then I had two questions. The first one is um I keep forgetting we can look down there, but this is on Second Street. Um folks, this is uh downhill from Bill Lucy's house and um not asking a yes or no, but they want to change the front
walk. I'm really I'm like to what kind of I mean it's a photograph obviously some sort of sketch plan or something but like I >> So what do they want to put there? >> Uh the walkway on the on the right you want to remove the brick >> the current brick
>> is on the left. Yeah. So I'm not I'm not thinking in terms of yes or no. It's just like what kind of this is kind of a hairy homeowner thing. How how much detail is a rough sketch and a photograph good or um
>> some material call outs like okay >> what is that? What are those plants? I don't know. Are those boxwoods? >> Yeah, the boxwoods are there. >> Yeah, they're they're pretty they're pretty amazing. >> Yeah. Can they like keep those on site and transplant them or >> But this is a really interesting house
entirely because in the backyard is the >> Is it It's the one that used to be the girls school, right? Or is that one more down? >> This is not my The my >> The next one down is that one. It's got the amphitheater in the backyard. >> It used to be the Oh, the other one used to be the girls school. >> Yeah. So, okay.
>> A while ago. >> What's that? Is this one we reviewed? >> We looked at some they talked about >> fixing some things. Yeah. >> Uh some shutters and but I think that may have been the one downhill. But um All right. Well, I'm I'm going to I'll
keep it simple and we'll get them to bring that back to you. The um because I'm not Well, I need to go through the >> It's just the walk and the plantings. That's it. Well, they're all they're going to be doing is pushing back, removing some of the boxwoods, and then replacing a brick
walk with the flag stone. Um the the guidelines don't really say no. Um I think the challenge on this would be if I knew this was some a designed landscape that this is, you know, had been there, this was part of, but I I I
I'm not qualified to make that judgment. But >> are they doing this just because they don't like the current entrance? >> Um, I mean I down the street from or up the street up the hill from my house. So I walk by a lot. It it it is it feels a
little enclosed now. You know, they could probably do it again with softening the plantings there. So I think this is a uh this is a an aesthetic preference and I'll keep my opinion myself. Um, I think it opens it up a little bit too much. But, um, I
think the key question is would be is removing the brick walk and replacing it with with a flag stone appropriate here. Um, but I really just asking sort of this not going to get too complicated the simplicity of a of an
application. Um, and then the other one is uh this is our favorite um uh measuring uh thing on the mall. The uh I was even I was at Rapture a couple weeks ago and joking with Mike Roodie about
how many people you remember the guy that was laying on the road. So how many people equal what? So what what they've asked is uh that artwork that we okayed up on the facade um the photograph at the top is it at night and the question
was can we can we can they illuminate those >> sorry >> and um >> you predicted is this Ally who still wants this. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know the the thing that's troubling is I'll sit there, you know, the last several, you know,
Fridays and no one sees it, you know, but I'll point it out. >> I happen to look up there the other time >> and no one's noticing it and it's and it so I think to some extent >> weird, >> but yet when people do they go that's really cool. So the the response is positive. Reason I'm asking is now we
know this is not a historic facade. Um but the Kate um so on the mall it's not unusual to have lights. >> You mean the Schuma building wants to be lit? >> We got the green lights gone, you know. So we have so we have lights on the mall, you know, sort of these these barn
lights. Um and go ahead, Kate, keep flicking down. But I uh you know, so it's not unusual to do that. They could do something like that. >> Looking up. I was wondering if um and maybe this is you know maybe more an architect question keep going Kate but
there are um no down >> it's twice in there >> there so there's like the barn lights or you know it's something more modern >> it's just more stuff on that facade >> really okay >> yeah I mean it just I don't know why
they're going to have they got the little pictures up there and then they're going to start having these little things sticking out to light them and it's just more junk. >> And then Alli's going to want strobe lights or something and then he's going to want music and it's up there. >> I think the the art that they put up. It's cool. It is cool, but I don't think
light on on it's going to it's just going to be distracting from the storefronts down below. >> I'll take an opposite opinion because it's not a historic facade and I'll just say let him do what he wants to do. I don't I think there's such thing as
too much light. That's That's getting to be too much. >> Okay. Within the confines of good lighting. >> Yeah. It's uh I I was going to tell him do not if you do something cons go to a lighting consultant something minimal
that illuminates those that is concealed or say it's not I uh what I'm hearing from you all is we don't want bright lights. We also don't need more stuff. So, if there's a way to illuminate those that's ob not obtrusive. Um,
maybe we consider it. >> It also doesn't seem to make sense that to like attach them to the cornice above. It just that feels like inappropriate to me and I don't know where you would put it otherwise like coming from the parapet. I don't >> I don't know. >> So, I was hoping one of you architects
would say something really like cool. I'm saying don't do it. >> Use these new space age lights from NASA. >> It's hovering. >> You want one light for each section. >> I don't know. >> You can launch drones every night.
>> Drones. Yeah. >> Just have somebody out there hold a candle and then >> All right. >> Everything doesn't need to be lit up. >> While we're on the downtown mall, did the cafe rules get >> No. >> Asked and accepted? >> Yes. >> Oh, yes. Yeah,
>> they did, >> but they're not enforced yet. >> That's what I was going to bring up. >> Everything looks the same. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> I mean, cuz I I was I was eating at Lazies and they they still have the fake
flowers. >> Yeah. Why haven't it Why hasn't it been enforced, Jeff? >> Oh, no. >> No, I'm serious. I mean, I know we're in a public meeting and I'm not asking you to call out colleagues, but that's >> no one no one's no one's falling out. I
just I think there's some um evaluating priorities um relative to um some of the hopes and wishes and requests of the business community um balanced with enforcement of some things. So, I think there and plus we're
having some transition responsibilities of the mall right now. So, uh, but I think some of it is is there's some balancing going on. Uh, and it's not a, um, it's not a withdrawal from the, um, guidelines that were adopted, and it's
not, you know, no one's backing away from them. It's a, um, it's it's it's it there's obviously a lot going on in the mall right now. We've already had a conversation about that. So, it's it's trying to weigh
um h how heavy a hand here, how light a hand there, and um and it's above my level. In fact, I will say to the point where I remind folks, the B does not enforce zoning. Um we can point things
out. I can um the B can comment on things, but the the enforcement um responsibilities are are with zoning. >> Yeah, staff does receive a lot of things that are coming at us that we
have to ignore. >> Strategic um and but yes, there is a recognition of things on the mall and an understanding that something some a threshold has been reached and so trying to determine what how do we how do we
line up our the actions? Well, what maybe continuing this or maybe separate I what about things that the city puts on the mall that seem to be I'm thinking like the purple lights um which I don't know why they're purple but they also >> I close my eyes when I walk by
>> they get kicked over and they get like >> I've been very >> don't work >> I was told they were um temporary and I was adamant that if they became permanent we needed to be asked and we would likely not Okay, them because of
it just they're not part of the design. The wires, I mean, it just looks Yeah. The result of the lighting is great. The lights themselves look like. So, but I there are >> someone put them out there and then like a year later people have moved them all
over the place and they shine in your face because they're not shining up the trees anymore. >> Um, >> they're trip hazards too, I think. And one other thing that we discussed and had brought before us was the tree study. Was that ever funded by
>> Well, we tried to um and I, you know, Kate worked triple overtime to get a grant request in. Uh but we did not unfortunately did not get that grant. That would have funded a couple million towards it. We did not get it. Now it's
really coming down to what council uh is willing to put into the CIP. So I think that's where the you know >> anything that the planning commission needs to advocate for. >> Well, there's a lot in there. Uh but I think um and I don't know this I I
haven't gotten involved in the budget process yet. I don't know how much they're talking about for the tree plan, but I know that that's what it's going to come down to is that um will funds be allocated? >> What's the majority of the funding for? Well, I think didn't Paul Josie say something like a million a block to
>> Well, part of the plan was just starting to call out >> and that's being done as the the Steven Gaines is doing a lot of what he can do um through his authority uh but to replant new trees and the the situation
with the um the plant the root cells and the situation with some infrastructure that's in the way. There's also some infrastructure that's programmed to be relocated. So that it's trying to choreograph all of that. We've got the the the mall crossings starting and of
course next year's the 50th anniversary of the mall and we have crossings dug up. So um but but as far as the trees go, it's I I I believe it it's really a function right now of of how that's how the plan how the financing or I'm sorry, how the funding is is um put together.
Is the second street crossing going to be done? The one that we talked about in >> the seventh and fourth street. Um I know that the plans have gone through and they changed the plans per my request because they had some things that weren't right, but so the plans look
good. I don't I believe that they're I believe I don't know that that it's now like they're gonna go out for bid or you know but I as far as timing though I I honestly don't >> I thought it was pretty urgent when it was brought before us that they wanted to start right away.
>> So it's just a function of you know how quickly someone >> responds really looks bad. I mean, both of them do. Second Street is just >> I I don't look at those. I don't look at the hotel. >> The pedestrians, >> it's just it's getting where I'm >> Yeah. It's really It's
>> And the Reynolds look the Reynolds are in terrible shape. Um it it is a little bit of I'm dismayed. Uh next year's our 50th anniversary of the mall. uh we're going to, you know, see all these activities centered around it and and um
I think the condition of the mall is is is is not great. Um I'm surprised more people with heels aren't tripping and falling um uh in the Runnels. So, but uh yes, Carl, I think in the planning commission, you all paying attention to
that to the CIP process and um >> I mean it's it's imminent. So, I mean, if there's stuff that we need to be looking at, like if we're not going to get new trees in the mall for the next 5 years because it's not in the CIP, it would be nice to know that. >> So, those number the figures they give us don't always, it's not clear what
everything is >> because there's Yeah. and Paul's giving his best, but there's there's underground stuff that's just some unknown to that they have to account for and do they have to move it and and uh you know then who moves it and and is it part of a planned project or is it
something they have to finance or fund? The last piece is and this is um I have been under tremendous pressure to put together a plan to complete the update of the guidelines and and and Jerry, I appreciate your your note and I um I
understand where you are. Um can't fully advise on what to do, but I I would the response that I can give you is that we need to update the guidelines. Yes, absolutely. And that's been on me. Um it is an extremely complicated
thing and I have been working on I have a lengthy document but when you start to think about just some of the questions that we have to pull together for example do I I have historic district guidelines for the ADC districts
conservation districts I have the design guidelines for the entrance cores so I have three sets of design guidelines I need to update I have um some of that involves should we be re-evaluating the boundaries of our historic districts? That's probably
too much. Take that away. How much should we be evaluating conflicts with the current zoning? Um one answer I've gotten is, well, that would take a lot. So, update your guidelines and then then as we come up with conflicts in the code, we can address them as they go.
Well, all right. So, you know, so there's a lot of how how far do I want to go? What are some of the answers? Do we want we're supposed to by code evaluate the contributing structures within districts? Does that need a consultant to go around and evaluate those? Yes.
>> So, there's a lot of little questions of do we bite this elephant all at once? Do we bite it in take it in bites? Um but if I take it in bytes >> to evaluate the contri hasn't already been done >> by code I'm supposed to um
>> re-evaluate >> well I think the last time we had a work session on this we noticed that a lot of the buildings that are contributing there were some questions like why are they contributing or why are some not contributing >> so what would be the pro and and and I'm not saying to answer or even talk about
it but consider that consider of the what 1500 properties that we have within in historic districts alone and um probably 80 90% of them have contributing structures. Uh some have
several um some are gone. Um some shouldn't be, some should have should be, but you know, who's going to evaluate that and what time would that take? Uh you know, we've all had the same questions about like West Maine, that area where you know, between the
bridge and 10th Street that's kind of a no man's land. what exactly what are our guidelines telling us to do there? Uh signs are a big one. So we I put together this list of questions, you know, what abouts and that you know are meaningful questions. A very big one and
this goes to what Jerry contacted me about. Do we should we sit down with council and say before we update these guidelines? Are there things that you know we you know should we not look at solar panels because you're going to you do you want
us to allow them? But you know cart before the horse uh it it's I don't know the answers but as I pull this plan together my next step will be to sit down with you all you know small group individually. I want to sit down with Breck. I want to sit down with Tim Moore. I want to sit down with Melanie
Miller and former B members and say what do you think and I think the question the ask that I would have out to you all is that you know what are the things you know that that we need to change um in the guidelines I know we have some process things um we have some things
even in the ordinance that I think needs to be changed I think you know looking personally looking at all four sides of a building you know so I've I'm bringing stuff to you somebody's building a shed in their backyard you know and we're having to review So there's I we really
need to I need a good honest critique of the guidelines and the process and that's going to take some work. Um but we're also Kate and I are in process of offering comment on some up some not updates to the zoning but they're in the second tier of looking at we've adopted
this ordinance where some of the holes and some of the mistakes and not a lot of attention was given to the to the the design um district uh control district. So there's some things that even got omitted that we have to go back and add back in. So we're we're very very busy with process. But please give some
thought to if you could snap your fingers and change the guidelines, you know, or the process big picture kind of stuff, you know, what or or some of the maybe even insurmountable questions that that we've dealt with. start just based on tonight. Let it start by, you know,
some kind of a recommendation back to um the planning commission to illuminate some of these, you know, pinch points in the zoning. You know, this is a good example like why doesn't a neighborhood like have a buffer zone
or some sort of a, you know, there's no reason why there could be an amendment made um to help better protect these places. need a little help. >> Well, the height limitation of the previous just an example, the height limitation of the previous zoning
ordinance that said you could only build, you know, it related to all the other buildings in the block >> occupy an entire block. I'm not sure how that apply anyway, but that you would average, you know, see you never get something like this that's four times
the or whatever. It's almost four times the existing height, but you get, you know, average plus 50% or something like that. So, you have reasonable increases in height of massing, but not, you know, the BMF that's being plumped down.
>> That's where I want to start. That was uncomfortable. It's like a number. And and there was another issue that had been brought up before about seventh street about student housing being within so many
>> Yeah, we that's >> not us. >> Well, I understand that. But did did is that >> does city council know that city staff approve that? >> Council approves council sees
everything. So even if if coun there's no nothing's done by you know sort of fiat by staff if if there's something in our process you know uh it goes >> so council did approve that no council hasn't taken action on that that was a
staff determination whether the whether this is a half mile radius of EDA >> so there was a u so there's a zone the zoning administrator can interpret the code they are allowed to do that um but >> said yes it is Yeah.
>> And is that then legal that or does council have the right to say that wasn't right? >> Well, it's it's sort of like a law, you know, it's like legislation. If if council doesn't want that, then they can they can amend the code. if they don't like an interpretation or someone can
appeal the BCA type of thing, but um council doesn't jump in and I mean and but again this is the zoning side of things and I I I don't dodge it out of laziness. I just it's it's it's it's
hard enough in my lane. Um but um that's why I tried to say, you know, if if they want to say that's within a/4 mile of grounds or it's, you know, not within a foot of >> within a quarter mile of some UVA property. I saw >> but not central ground. >> Yeah. >> And that's but that's all the zoning
ordinance requires >> that it be within a quarter mile. So, so if tonight this project had been >> for regular old apartments, I mean, would that change how you all are looking at this?
I mean, no one said it. I was waiting for someone to say it. I mean, if this were just apartments, you know, an apartment building for, you know, my wife, you know, cuz she doesn't want to live in hot room. my parents. >> Well, >> I think it would if it were just
people. >> They did it student because they can get more density. >> Understand? But my point is is that more easily >> the problem is the height, masking, and scale of this building, not who's going in it. >> Yeah. >> I mean, and that's a, you know, and it's fair to point that finger at that, but I think
>> aren't necessarily going to go into it, >> right? >> I don't know what I don't know what's going to happen next to it. I don't know what um I'm I'm I I I don't know. But I I I just say my my question validly is if this were you know a regular
apartment building or an office building transition for the Del Street side but >> there the zoning code and that's why they stepped down to about three stories and then step back. Um, >> the problem for the the neighbors that have the the condominium that's next
door is that they're also zoned CX-5, which means there is no transition. So, that's where they're getting upset. >> Yeah, fair enough. But, I said, I think it's the height and masking and scale of this thing, pure and simple. And um, and that's within your purview to evaluate
and and and comment on, but >> says it all. Little cartoon graphic. the monster on surrounding those two. I mean, that says it all. >> Because if if if you know said if if
Reed Broadhead had said, "Nah, this is 2 in beyond being student housing." The applicant said, "All right, fine. We're going to just do regular apartments or make it a hotel." Um, it it still would be here in front of you. And what what is the um the uh
affordable housing that was going to be built right off Main Street? >> I don't know where that went. Um the one that next to West Haven. >> Yeah. Well, there we have the West Haven and then we had the >> the one at Portland. >> They didn't get their funding.
>> They did anything to do with us >> after all that. >> UA could have funded it. >> That's what everybody >> They're behind it. >> Yes, they get their funding. >> They did. So >> that's going to pay for that. >> I can't say that. I just know that I heard >> in the last meeting blame us on not
getting the fun. You know, >> I I don't know this as a fact, but I I think they just have to wait for the next round for the next year. >> And what what about West Haven? >> What about West Haven? >> They're projects moving forward. I don't know. >> That is moving forward.
>> They're the West Haven project. >> Yeah. Um I don't know the status of it. I don't know how that's being financed and managed, but I know that they their plans in pretty good shape. They they made some changes to kind of not they just shifted some things a little bit for some alignments. A key thing they
really want is that connection to West Main and it looks like there is one there on the side of the standard and I don't know if that's been guaranteed although that that is a um there's a utility running there but >> awful connection. My comment to the city
folks is that that's a that connection to West Main is critical if the city could get involved in in in in securing that thing is is the land is not being sold. It's a it's a long-term lease. >> I think these are all post discussions,
aren't they? >> An ement. >> These are all post beating discussions, aren't they? Should we conclude this command? Well, it's helpful for you all to know a little bit of the background, but yeah, I haven't heard um uh I mean, I like the Verb. I don't I went by there once a couple months ago. For all I
know, they're done. Um that thing is frightening. That That's just >> three city blocks. >> Where is that? >> Over out of South Lawn. >> That was the IP that they tore down >> JPA. Uh just one thing back to the Wordland
demolition. It is a year any properties over 90,000. That's how outdated it is. And I don't know why council didn't update that with >> anything over 90,000 in value has to wait out a year >> because that was written in 1972 or
something. >> That's good. I don't know why I had like six months in my head because I remember >> they're different valuations, but the first valuation is you can market it for three months if it's less than 20,000. >> Realistic swing set. Um, so, um, >> it's a car,
>> but but I I think to to what that the gentleman was saying about and I when I shouldn't have interrupted, but you know when he said in Charlton Oak that was approved. I mean, everything got that they had a site plan and a B approval for the project on Second Street. >> Lavine walked away from
>> Lavine walked away. >> Walked away from Violet Crown. >> Why did that happen? Why? I don't I >> I heard it was financing. >> It's a complicated project. Well, the the news today is that that per that property has been purchased. >> Yeah. >> And it'll be run as the they want to continue the
>> three three women bought the property and made a deal with the >> three women here in Charlottesville. >> Bought the bought the property and have made a deal with the operator of the movie theater. >> Did it say who they were? >> Yes. >> Who were they?
>> Have to look at it's it's on the news. >> Local news. It'll be >> 612 West Main Street is approved. Um that was nothing's been realized in that one. Um the uh 218 West Market before it became a hotel was being pursued as a
sevenstory um residential. They got a special use permit to go high. >> But to blame us for those two things that was really that was well researched. >> I I I get it all the time. People say, "Oh, the B this." And I'll go, "What project?" And I'll go back and look.
>> Somebody else said the B low regard. >> It is. I'm like >> and for what? >> And we are assuming that Lavine is going ahead with the hotel at the Artful Library. >> Yes, I can confirm that. >> Okay. >> But I think that's why I think that's why the dialogue that we had is valuable
is because it did sort of I think inform people on a lot some falsehoods that were in their minds about what we do and what we're what our purview is and what we did or did not do. So, >> well, I think they're also frustrated because
>> things they don't have anywhere else. >> Yeah. >> To to get up and say anything and slow or stop a project, right? >> It's all our fault because we were, you know, the comp plan. When did you not hear for the last or the comp plan the zoning ordinance? We all heard about for
three years and how many of us engaged and said it's not right. I mean, I'm I mean, I have a lot of opinions about it. all night. But >> it's it's hard to imagine like going through each property and saying, "Well, this doesn't make sense." You know, it feels like there needs to be an interim
period where we're evaluating it in real time, but it could shift, but maybe it won't. >> It's just too much and none of us could, you know, >> yeah, our chair is trying to make us >> I'm trying to um do I hear a motion to adjurnn? >> I move to adjourn.
>> Meeting adjourned. >> Jeff, quick question. were earlier. I was