Mr. >> Mr. Seamer. Um, >> no, it's okay. I would call her Miss Lewis. Mrs. Miss Lewis. You're Mr. Seamer. Uh, I just had a very good question. Can I suggest May I suggest
you take a five minute recess before you start? And can I talk to you and Mr. Miss Lewis out in the hall because I can do that? >> No, I just just want to have a
conversation on side a sidebar with two of you, not the entire B. And uh give me five minutes. >> Are you okay with that? Okay. >> Because we haven't even started yet. >> So, we'll delay.
>> I I was told I can that was in our recess with me. Recessing. >> We'll see you in the playground. >> Where are we going? We've been we've been called to the teachers.
>> Not the vice principal. You always >> start the meeting and we're in trouble already. >> We knew you were in trouble. Vice >> got a space. B present. One's right there. The other, I believe, is in the restroom. >> Um, >> is Kate out there? >> Yeah, she's just there.
>> Okay, since we haven't started yet, I'd rather just wait to get everybody here. That's fine. We just go ahead and just do the normal way. comments. >> Just maybe just do that.
>> All right, there we go. Uh, welcome to this regularly regular monthly meeting of the Charlottesville Board of Architectural Review. Uh, staff will introduce each item followed by the applicant's presentation, which should not exceed 10
minutes. Um, the chair will then ask for questions from the public followed by questions from the BA. After questions are closed, the chair will ask for comments from the public. For each application, members of the public are each allowed three minutes to ask questions and three minutes to offer comments. Speakers
shall identify themselves and comment should be limited to the P's perview. That is regarding only the ex exterior aspects of a project. Following the B's discussion and prior to taking action, the applicant will have up to three minutes to respond.
All righty. Um to entertain a motion. >> Mr. Chair, I have a motion. Um, we'd like to I don't know if it's suspend the rules, but um to amend the rules. Um,
in our agenda, just to state that on item E, the pre-application conferences, um, there are two, one for preliminary discussion of the west, three West Main Street parcels and one for a preliminary discussion of the Valley Road parcels.
that on those the applicant and our conversation with the applicant will be limited to 30 minutes and outside of that 30 minutes we will take public comments. Is there is that I I'm not the chair. You can
>> That's right. Um do I hear a second? >> I'm sorry. Can you clarify that again? Just say that again. >> We're limiting um the discussion with the applicant to 30 minutes and we're allowing for public comment but it will be outside of that 30 minutes. Okay. >> And what are we doing in the comments
>> that we have been discussing that for the last half an hour? >> Okay. >> And I'm sorry you missed that. >> So, we're cutting ourselves off 30 minutes and then >> with with the applicant >> just for tonight because they can they have they can get in touch with us anytime. I
>> you can I mean you're >> That was a question and so and after we then the public gets a chance to talk then the public can give comments. I don't know if we need to do that because right now our preamble says the applicant's presentation should not
exceed 10 minutes >> but but then our discussion and questions would constitute the rest back and forth that we have would go out to Yeah. No, they're not limit they're >> their presentation 10 minutes the overall discussion should Yeah. 20 more
minutes interacting with them, our you know questions from us, questions from them, >> comments um and then after that public comments or wherever in the the agenda we usually do public comments. >> So I can time keep on this >> and and another query will both of them
one follow the other immediately or are we going to have public comments after each one? >> After each one >> I think >> I don't think there's going to be any about >> does that make sense? Valley Road, but um >> I know, but Valley Road is the last item on the agenda. So, it seems since that
would be less problematic, possibly they would have to stay here a long time to make their presentation. I'm just wondering if that is a concern. >> Would you like to um amend her motion to move theirs in front of >> I would like to move. Yes.
>> Okay. You accept that? Um, yes, but I thought but West Main Street is before Valley Road. >> He's recommending moving Valley Road before West Main >> so that we could deal with that more expeditiously. I I don't know for sure that that will happen that way, but I suspect it will be somewhat less
controversial. >> Well, to add 30 minutes on how long people in this room would have to wait during our meeting. I I would also add just because we're in the discussion on a motion that anybody can make any public comments. Um, at the beginning of
our meeting, as the chair just outlined, we typically don't take comments that are relative to our agenda, but we're being relaxed in the rules. >> Can I pause a minute? Um, so the risk there is it's items not only
agenda, you know, for example, the consent agenda. If somebody wants to remove it, they at the beginning of the meeting can comment on it. But you all um the opportunity here is for some you know 10 people to speak in matters from
the public and those same 10 people to speak later and you know let's be candid this is a a pre-application discussion this is not a hearing about a COA and uh so let let and I think let's also be open and
honest to the situation we're we're um your we have a an applicant coming to you with a project within an ADC district. It's subject to BAR review. We have the design
guidelines and uh uh Mr. share your your statement at the beginning about you know we we ask people to refer to things that are gerine to the B's business and um and I I think in in the sense of this being a work session to to sort of talk
about some of the architectural details um you can hold hold people to that but I um I don't I think just be let's be open about what we want to accomplish here uh but if you wish to make the um
matters from the public include items on the agenda that anticipate that. But I would say otherwise, you know, you can have matters from the public. And in a prior uh motion, you had limited that to just like council does to the number of speakers and emphasize that it's matters
that are not on the agenda. And uh uh for discussion, >> the west main project is on the agenda. >> That's right. >> And currently would allow some discussion. >> Disregard what I said. We did it last August and that was my president, that was my thinking, but >> we haven't had enough time to
>> No, no, we used the same motion that we used um where you addressed speakers during matters from the public and you also addressed uh what we discussed about, you know, at least some limitation on on the timing of your discussion and on the amount of of
comment you're going to take and and also about if if whether or not to to flip the items on the agenda, although I Miss Lewis has a reasonable point. >> She does. I withdraw. >> Okay. >> I'm confused.
>> But I just say, >> are we allowing? I'm sorry. Now I'm confused, too. >> Yeah. So, let's make sure we're right. >> So, in that um in the minutes, and I think actually, do we have >> if I have to go print it out, I will. But >> I have it from last August. >> Yes. >> Yeah, they're right here. >> And just, you know,
>> I think the amount of time we're going back and forth in this, we should just go through our normal agenda. and just agreed allow for public comment as we normally would and just let's get going. We alreadyed 15 minutes,
>> but I well we didn't because we didn't start at 5:30 >> 10 minutes. >> Um >> I would suggest >> do we want to limit the discussion to 30 minutes though? >> I do think so. And I think you're also asking people for a single comment. You know, you're not taking three minutes for questions, three minutes for comments. I think you you should be two
minutes. >> Yeah, that sounds >> and limit comments to two minutes and that that they're gerine germaine to the bar's consideration of this. >> Yes. >> So, I'll withdraw my motion. I'll make a new one. Okay. >> Um on the pre-application discussions for West Main and Valley Road. Um we're
going to limit the discussion with the applicant on the on the application to 30 minutes total. Matters from the public will be heard. They will be limited to each speaker. Two minutes each has to be germanine to what the B
can do. If you aren't familiar what we can do, I think our chair can familiarize you with that. That's my motion. >> All right. Do I hear a second? >> Second. >> Um, all in favor? >> I opposed. >> Opposed? >> Okay. All right. Uh, the motion passes.
One opposed. >> All right. >> I don't want to limit us. That was it. >> That's fine. Um uh the consent agenda this evening uh sorry excuse me matters from the public not on the agenda or the consent agenda. Does anyone have any they'd like to speak about that's not on
the agenda? >> All right the public >> in the public. Yes. Okay. Comes come up to the podium please. State your name. >> Hi there. My name is Frank Bectar. I
live in Fville and I just want to thank the board of architectural review uh for doing its darnest over the course of a few months a few months ago to try to adhere to its guidelines and I don't
know if there has been any kind of formal change to those guidelines but I suggest and hope that if the guidelines are still as they were or if they have changed that you would also just try now uh in any discussion here to adhere to
your guidelines to the best that you can as you see them and uh because well that's just what I hope because if a matter needs to come before council again then it will come before council again in terms of what their guidelines
are. So uh that's what I think should happen in any kind of consideration of how the council stands versus what their guidelines are. I hope that you will stick to your guidelines. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it, Frank.
>> Any other matters from the public not on the agenda? >> All right. Our consent agenda contains two items. Meeting minutes from February 18th, 2026 BA meeting as well as COA application for 203 Ridge Street. Um
I believe there's >> Yeah, I'd like to pull 203 Street for discussion. >> Okay. Thank you, Mr. Schwarz. Um, we'll move that to I guess the first new item. >> Yeah. >> Um, do I hear a motion to approve the
meeting minutes from Feb or February 18th, 2026? >> So moved. >> Hear a second. >> Second. >> Give it to Mr. Bailey. Uh, uh, all approved or all all in favor? >> I opposed. >> All right. >> Oh, and also something that came out of
our rules meeting today. You do not have to have been present during a meeting >> to approve the minutes. Okay. >> So, no, I just was something to remember. So, if ever you're voting on minutes and you say, "I wasn't there," you can
>> still read them and approve them and approve them. Right. >> All right. So, our first new item is a certificate of appropriateness application for 203 Ridge Street. Um, the owners of the city of Charlottesville. It's an accessibility project with site alterations.
Uh so staff, if you guys could please present this one. Thank you. >> Kate, you have you're more familiar with this one than I am. >> Yes. So there are planned accessibility improvements to the fire station. Uh Bridge Street uh Bridge Street ADC
district. Uh the building itself was constructed in 1959. The facade was altered sometime after 1985. Um, but it is uh the our little fire station. Uh, the let me see. So, here's a picture of the
original facade kind of match those uh bay dividers nicely. Uh, and then a kind of point of local history is that a replica of the Liberty Bell is at the Ridge Street Fire Station and is still rung every fourth of July for my understanding.
So, just here's the site plan. The improvements will include two brand new accessible parking areas, a new sidewalk, uh site alterations including landscaping and um accessible seating. Uh and then just essentially a new ramp
that will make overall this site uh more accessible. So that's it. Yeah. So, demolition of existing concrete sidewalk, minor regrading, repaving, restriping obviously uh that ramp into the new sidewalk and then that
new kind of area. So, everything you see in this picture um will be replaced um to better meet our accessibility requirements as a new school building. >> I take it the applicant's not here to make a presentation or Oh, you are.
That's right. That's right. Would you like to present this to us, please, Mr. Dear Hendricks? >> Pull up the uh the actual >> Thank you, board. I'm Scott Hendricks, the project manager of the city of Charlesville. This is my project and I'm
happy to talk to you about it. >> Okay. >> One second. >> Did you have any like do you want to give an overview beyond what staff did or just field questions or >> It's very much a 90% ADA project. um a lot of sloping that needs to be
rectified and things like that. Uh it's a it's a it's the route main route into the building. So it needs to be improved. Um we have added a little bit of landscaping to the plan as well. Um but really it is truly an ADA project.
some curb cuts and replace sidewalks again to get the right slopes and balances. Okay. Does anybody have questions for staff? All right. Um, do we have any questions
from the public either here or online? >> Yes. >> All right. If you could come up please to one side or the other. Either one. either side. Okay. >> Blessings everybody. >> Hello.
>> My name is Uriah Loftton. Uh to answer a quick question, yes, I'm Uriah from the Bible. Okay. >> And um I want to ask how does this project, how is it going to help our community? Are you going to use people
to employ from the community or you going to call people from outside the community like y'all been doing? Cuz a lot of our community is not working. And um I see a lot of people coming from out of town working and so we not
fluctuating. We not we not surviving. >> So we need to be more community attentive. You know, us as one people. That's that's a great comment. We are bound by the Virginia
um code for procurement and it's it's a pretty complicated thing. We can't hire who we want. We have to hire the low bidder in every every job and we don't know who the low bidder is until bid day, >> right? >> That's just the state low code we have
to apply to. >> Mr. Lawson, I appreciate your sentiment and your comment and your question. Um however that doesn't really pertain to the board of architectural reviews purview um which is really just the exterior elements of the design project and it's part of the community but it's our community right
>> it is but it doesn't fall within our purview we're here to to basically assess the project in terms of the visual and physical aspects of the project not who's executing the project. >> So >> but now but now that you've met Mr. Hendricks, you could follow up with your
concerns because they're >> they're valid. >> Um, appreciate your your attendance tonight. And thank you. Um, any other questions from the public either here or online pertaining to the BA's preview?
All right. Uh, questions from the board. >> Comments? Any got comments from the public? Any questions from VR? real quick. >> Uh I had a question about the um the vending machine. I think that I had to Google this. It's the first time I've
seen this. It seems like that's a harm reduction vending machine in Dropbox. Um just I mean out of curiosity I was sort of you know I looked at it and I thought maybe a vending machine doesn't belong in the front facade of a building here
but I think it probably serves its purpose better being visible to the public on the front of the building. So, I I'm not going to argue with that at all. I'm just curious how it's sort of operated from like a safety u I I'm not sure what's going to be in it, but you know, there are lots of miners passing
by that space every day. So, just curious about that. >> Yeah, I can't give you the details on how that's operated. Uh that is a a product that is is being provided by UVA >> u to the fire stations and this goal of the fire station to get it in with this
project. Um, I'm pretty sure it's an effort that is supported by the city manager's office as well on on getting these kind of things out there for public consumption when needed. >> Are are you going to be losing parking spaces with this new configuration?
>> Yeah, there are about four or five parking spaces there now and they have a non-compliant aisleway that's about three or four feet wide. Um, so the the wider um highway that you see there between the two parking spaces is is
code and what it has to be. So we really can't go down. So yeah, we might lose a parking space, but there are still probably four or five up there in front of that building that aren't ADA and some additional ones off to the right hand side as you face the front of
the building. That's for public. Any other questions? All right. Uh, any comments from the public either here or uh >> All right. >> It's just I have to Sorry.
>> Hey y'all. How y'all? Um, I just I know I I heard something you said, miss, you know, and minors walk that street, doctors walk that street, um, elderly walk that street, homeless walk that street, everybody
walks that street. So, can we not as a community or as the BAR look at minors like they're a problem for a vending machine >> that's been there for how long, sir? >> It's not there yet. >> Okay. So, like vending machines are all over the place. So when you said there are minors that walk the street, it kind
of hit me like, "Oh, dang. Hold on. Everyone walks that street." >> I walk that street almost, you know, every day. >> So would it be So would it be uh You said, "Wait, what did you say like protection wise or like you your concern is like that it would get robbed or something?" >> No, no, no. >> Concern miners walk in the street.
>> There are things like what? This is my Google search. Okay. That I did this afternoon. Um Narcan is in here. >> Um which I don't know how it's used personally. I just I'm curious if there's it's actually safety for the children, you know, like kids walking by, going to the music resource center,
things like that. Like is there is there a need for safety or like some sort of control on that or is it >> it's not a candy machine? >> No, I understand what you're saying. But when you say >> Nan, >> I get what you're saying. >> I believe birth control um like Narcan. So like people overdose, they need to
find a place to get >> totally 100% understand what you're saying. But see that Naran could save one of those minor lives as well. >> I totally agree. I was It was a question. It was a question. >> Yeah. I was just curious about it. Like were you trying to like pinpoint minors or you know I was just I was kind of wondering so I wanted a little bit more.
>> She wanted to make sure that miners weren't going to get hurt by what's in >> Right. Exactly. >> So if it Narcan can't hurt you though even if it's given to you when you don't need it. >> That's great information. I didn't know that. So thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right. Um,
any other comments? Yep. Go ahead. Come up here. >> Can I steal your mic? >> So, I wanted to speak to the the harm reduction vending machine and how it usually works is usually folks uh there are certain supplies that folks can get from harm reduction vending machines, no
matter who they are. Narcan, first aid kits, things like that. But if you're someone who has gone to UVA, has gone to the ED, the emergency department, uh has uh like used recreational drugs in any
way, you can get a number to put into like any regular it looks kind of like any regular vending machine and you put in your number, but it's like your specific number. And then you can get sharps, uh you can get pipes, you can get I don't know what's going to be in this vending machine. Um, and I see that
there's a a drop off point and I was to your question of like safety. I was like, people don't want sharps out. So, yeah, usually the great part of having a harm reduction vendetting machine next to a sharps container is folks can come and they can get rid of their their used sharps and then they can get new sharps.
And so, it's making it safer for the community because then there's not sharps where they where someone Yeah. all over the place. And so usually it means that folks bring their sharps there and with it being the fire department. Um like there are not enough
sharps boxes around town generally just putting a bug in someone's ear. Um but like so having it there so that people can get rid of their old sharps and then put new sharps uh get new sharps from the vending machine is usually how it works. But like things like first aid
kits um and other stuff everyone can everyone can get from the vending machine. So that's how they work. >> Okay. Thanks. >> Thank you. Any other comments? >> This is kind of random, but um I'm glad
that um these ADA upgrades are being made. It's long overdue. Um I'll date myself, but I was on the Charlottesville Electoral Board um in the mid to late 90s, and we had to move this precinct to a good location to another location,
Tonsler, which is a great rec center. It's it's a great location, but we were almost forced to move out of this firehouse, which a lot of the community there wanted to keep that precinct at the firehouse cuz historically it was,
you know, it was a precinct that was had been used for a long time, but we had to move it because of ADA issues um because people in wheelchairs couldn't get into the precinct and people would drop them off and then have to go over the curb. And so I'm actually amazed that we've gone the city's gone this long without
making these sort of improvements for access because it's not just firemen that access this. And now that we've heard what this vending machine will be used for, we hope that more people would actually be accessing this building, you know, at least the exterior of it.
>> So yeah. So thank you. >> All right, we're into our comments by the B. Carl and I. So, um, the reason I pulled this is, um, it's I I don't think we can actually force you to do this, but I just want you guys to consider it. Um, you're tearing up an awful lot of
pavement, uh, to do this. Correct. So, this looks like you're regrading a lot of the uh, the paving at the parking spaces. >> We're only going to be demolishing where those new >> parking spaces are with the center. >> So, looking at the site plan, um, there's a lot of distance between the back of those parking spaces and the
curb cut on Red Street. And it's a long curb cut. it extends, you know, the full length of the property along Rich Street. And I'm wondering if that needs to be there. Um if there would be a way to It looks like if I scale the the PDF, you could have a 25 ft drive aisle behind those ADA parking spaces and
still have about a 10-ft planting strip along Ridge Street. Um that wouldn't interfere with the fire trucks, but would just cut that curb cut, which is so obscenely long. Um and increase safety on the sidewalk there. um potentially allow for street trees, which we really don't have any on Red
Street um especially for such an important corridor coming into town. So, I I wanted to throw that out there and get on the record that if there's any way that the city could toss a little extra money at this project since you guys are already mobilizing and tearing up pavement, >> just tear up a little bit more. >> Well, well, it is an ADA project and
it's funded with ADA funding from specific funding >> from the federal government and from the city to do this kind of work. I don't know that I can add on a an traffic portion to this project. Um I don't I really don't think we can.
>> It would probably be be better that you know the distance between where we're working and the road is still a pretty good margin and it probably be 30 or 40 feet away from >> the area you're talking about where the curb is. I think it would be be better perhaps to bring this up um with public
uh works and see if it can't be a project with the city engineering team >> who know much more about talking about roads and curbs than I do anyway. >> So perhaps um perhaps that might be a better venue trying to get this. >> Okay. >> Thanks. All right.
>> But thank you. I just I needed to get that on the record in case it it seemed like a missed opportunity if it you know if there's any chance to combine the project somehow. >> Yeah. It is a long stretch without any shade for anybody who's walked from basically West Maine,
>> what is it? West, whatever that direction is. And to anywhere along that corridor, you've got that long stretch of asphalt. >> There is one magnificent tree on that. >> Yeah, there. But it's Yeah, we've talked about that tree before, >> but it's not in front of the It's not in front of the fire department. There's no
landscaping. >> Yeah. I mean, I don't even see any landscaping in your plan. >> There is a bit of landscaping. >> Okay. >> See? Oh, sorry. There it is. I missed the page. I looked at this before. Thank you. >> But, um, with that said, I'm happy to
make a motion. >> Go for it. All right. Um, having considered the standards set forth in the city code, including ADC district design guidelines, I move to find the proposed site alterations at 203 Ridge Street satisfies the B's criteria and is compatible with this property and other properties in this ADC district. And the
B approves the application as submitted. >> Second. >> All righty. I'll call a vote. Um, >> discussion. >> Sorry. Any discussion? All right. Hearing none. Um, call a vote. Mr. Rosenthal. >> Yes. Miss Tav, >> yes.
>> Mr. Timberman, >> yes. >> Miss Lewis, >> I. >> Mr. Bailey, >> yes. >> Mr. Schwarz, >> yes. >> I vote yes. >> So, motion passes. Thank you. >> Thank you guys for humoring me on that. >> All right.
>> Thank you, board. >> Uh, next item is certificate of appropriateness application uh for 1103rd Street Northeast. Uh, it's a window replacement project. Um, if staff wants to give us a brief
overview and then the applicant's here to also make a presentation. >> Go ahead. I was going to say I I've talked a lot this week, so >> all right. This is 110 to 114 uh 3rd
Street. Um and uh this building we well sorry this site we believe was mostly vacant for the later part of the 19th century into the early 20th. Uh construction date on this building not entirely sure from what I gathered sometime before 1950. So between 1940
and 1950. Um if you have >> Yeah. um loosely in the international style, the steel framed windows that you see are quite different on every facade of this building. Um but um as the applicant we'll discuss that there's
varying levels of um degradation um existing and has some pictures um the patterning are different from upper and the lower and so essentially for operability they are proposing
replacements of all second floor windows uh the pellet reserve series is what they've selected um with square millions Um and while we um staff recommends approval um on the side and rear elevations, but we would
maybe recommend that the applicant consider retaining the front facade windows um given that it is on the primary elevation and they are um unique unique in this orientation. >> Okay. Thank you. Uh would the applicant
like to make a presentation? >> Come on up, Steve. >> Hi, I'm Steve Barber. Um u partner owner of that building. Um can I share a proposed rendering printed out? >> Um it didn't make it into the application.
Sorry. So the proposed if you look at the proposed and the existing room are um proposals to match the the the window light layout exactly to what's existing and basically just replace the the units
with a a modern efficient window system, you know, respecting the the original masonry opening. No no structural changes to the building whatsoever. um just the the existing windows are basically failing, have no um thermal efficiency, they leak air, that they
don't half of them don't operate, that the cranks and the operators have have broken and failed. And there's literally no seals. And we've had three different contractors come out to look at um trying to remediate them. And the best proposal that we've gotten is this um is
what we're proposing now is to basically replace the um the units with a more modern um assembly. >> But these wouldn't be casement windows anymore. They wouldn't be operable. >> Oh, they would be operated. We can't tell from this. It looks like they're
stationary. >> They they would be operable. So on the front facade, they would all be casements um with the same light layout as the existing. Okay, >> those are just examples, but in the the paper uh rendering that shows what what we would propose.
>> And do you is there any manufacturer information or >> it's a it's a the PAL reserve series. Um it's an aluminum clad uh window with square millions has fixed fixed mullions with a insert in between.
>> Very good. All right. Uh, any questions from the public on this project? >> Either here or online? >> Nope. >> No questions on >> any questions from the board.
>> I have a question. Um, it looks like the the window units on the front facade are double operating. Each unit is double operating. >> Yes. >> Yes. Right. >> From your rendering, it does not appear to be double operating or is
>> I think that's correct. I think you're right. I think it's >> so it'll be a single swinging. >> I think that's right. >> Thank you. Any other questions? Well, I guess I have a question. Um, so looking at the historic window, it seems
like the top two lights are fixed and then the bottom four would be the operable leaf correct and then on the the new version. Is that the same or would that be >> I think in the new one the entire sash pivots out. >> You go to that diagram you had a second
ago, Pete, please. Okay, go. There you go. Gotcha. Um, actually that looks like the middle one. Looks like they do. >> Yeah, that's a double. >> They do split in the middle. >> Though the tops aren't fixed, but they do split in the middle. >> All right. That's right.
>> Okay. All right. Any comments from the public or any more questions from the AR? Any comments from the public? >> Actually, I have a question for staff. Sorry. >> Okay. Where are we with alum aluminum
clad windows on facades on historic structures? Like what do our guidelines say? I'm sorry. >> It's not vinyl or plastic. Um >> pardon me. >> As long as it's not vinyl or you know a plastic >> aluminum is okay. >> Yeah.
>> I mean they're currently steel you said. >> I think aluminum glide is encouraged. It was for new new >> and but not vinyl. not ranked. Yeah, that's >> okay. Thank you for answer. >> Sorry. >> Uh comments from the B.
>> I think the easy part, at least for me, is definitely the the three other sides I'm perfectly okay with. >> Yeah. >> Can we get that out of the way? >> Yep. >> Okay. Um, I I will say I've I've lived in a house
with windows just like this >> and you we had storm windows with them and there's no way to they never stop the wind from coming through. Like it's um these really are pretty terrible to live with. >> Yes. >> For what that is worth.
>> I think I think these steel windows kind of have a lifespan. At some point the water gets into them, they start to rust. start to malfunction. Um, I think the applicant's done a nice job at finding a replacement window that u mimics the original um pattern uh light
pattern and doesn't alter the historic opening for administration in the building. Um, so I I can support this application I submitted. >> I have I'm sorry. I have another question for you. Um, not a comment. uh
the detail you provided. Um the jam is at the it looks like you're adding two by material. So you're probably going to be increasing the depth of that jam dimension for the window, but that's correct me if I'm wrong. >> Uh slightly >> that's on just the edge of the brick.
>> Yeah, that's right. >> And is that the condition of the head and the sill also? So we're reducing the kind of visible lights or the sort of glass or >> uh I think slightly. Yes, I think that's correct. Yeah.
>> Any other comments? I'll make a motion. Um, having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including city's ADC district design guidelines, I move to find that the proposed window replacements at 1103rd Street Northeast
satisfy the BA's criteria and are compatible with this property and other properties in the district and that the BAR approves the application as submitted. There a second. >> I'll second with the qualification that we want to make sure that um the movable casement windows that the applicant
provided at this meeting are what we're for the front facade or what we're approving because he said that it was left out of our package. So I don't just want to say we're approving what we're given as part of the application. >> Yeah. The only thing that was left out was the color rendering. Okay. Everything else is Okay.
>> Thank you. Great. >> I'll accept that friendly amendment. Any discussion? I guess I'll second to that if I can. >> I think you need >> Yeah, I think you seconded. >> Okay, good. >> All right. Um, I'll call a vote. Mr.
Rosenthal, >> yes. >> Mr. Tab, >> yes. >> Mr. Timberman, >> yes. >> Miss Lewis, >> I. >> Mr. Bailey, >> yes. >> Mr. Schwarz, >> yes. >> And I vote yes. >> Thank you, Mr. Barber. >> Enjoy the
creature comforts in the new windows. Can I please have that document, please? That's the first time I' I've never seen. Thank you. >> Next item is uh 1615 Keith Valley Road. Um for new addition, exterior
alterations and repairs. Uh this is an interesting property. It's probably one of the oldest houses in the city of Charlottesville. So, uh look forward to hearing more about it. >> Uh yeah, it actually is. This is uh one
of those who knew um I know about it. A friend of mine grew up next door to this house, but um uh is something that a lot of folks don't realize is in town. But yeah, 1615 um uh Keith Valley Road uh
there is you see it here uh on the right hand side of the image. Uh that's a log cabin from possibly as early as the 1760s, possibly the 1790s. Uh so somewhere the various arguments in the
historic surveys and notes in the margin. So some uncertainty there, but um we know that it was there at least before 1800. And um initially it was those were two structures
um in the 1930s uh they were merged into one long uh building and then um pavilion structures are added on the back uh forming sort of a U-shaped uh structure
with a what we think and I I show it at the in the staff report we think was a uh well here you can that where those doors are on the back. I think it was an outdoor uh patio that was enclosed uh sometime after the 1930s
editions. And then uh very uncertain date, but probably in the 50s or 60s that you can see here on the left side of the screen, this garage was added. Um, it was not built with a foundation or
footing at uh um and the applicant wants to expand that to to add the the rest of the house is singlestory and doesn't lend itself to an addition. So to to have room for a family, you need a a bedroom that's connected to the house.
So, the plan is to remove the 1950s, 1960s garage, reconstruct it in its uh current footprint, but make it taller and so that you can have that bedroom upstairs and then connect it to the
house uh physically uh with an an enclosed hallway and not an open breezeway so that it is part of the house. Um the other things that are being uh done on the house are all on the back. Um the there's a lot of uh of
uh water infiltration. Um and other things. This house is in some rough shape. Uh so they're doing a lot of repairs, a lot of uh w moisture mitigation. Uh they have to also have there's living space in the cellar that to be a bedroom needs an egress window.
So that they're so removing that bay window which is on the the left hand side um and installing uh uh just a double hung window into the wall. So removing the bay and then that allows below grade there uh will be that uh
window out of the bedroom and an egress and then um that it's a I believe a triple sash window in the middle of the wing uh being replaced with a triple double hung and then it on the French doors. I'm I'm always intrigued when I I
see a building that looks like my house um held in place with with um big sticks. So, but the um this is the the rear enclosure of that we think was the patio. Uh and they're going to be
replacing the doors uh on these. They're they some close-up photos and I we've shared those. It's in pretty bad shape. Replacing the roof. um replacing the the Pizza Hut um skylight with something a little more appropriate. And ultimately
because of the low pitch on this section of the roof and over as on the photo you see to the left hand side there's a low pitch section there going back with a membrane roof but currently it's a uh roofs asphalt shingles everywhere. And
so going back, most of these are you see on the rear kind of non-issues. They're not um necessarily affecting the the the the the truly historic part of of the house. I mean, we do acknowledge the the the architecture of the the
1930s edition, but uh the garage is where we've got some glitches um because of our new code. Um by enclosing this breezeway they are creating a single structure and the
length of that structure exceeds what our code allows. It's it it so they there's a couple of options. Uh one of them them is for the applicant to uh request a special exception. Um I'm not sure which uh they're going to do, but
so we're including this in if and I I do recommend approval of of of the garage. Uh that um while it might have some difficulty with the zoning, you approval of COA would would certainly assist in that uh the request for the special
exception. Um, if if for any reason there was any uncomfort, you know, no one was you weren't comfortable with the garage or questions about the garage, I I wanted to make sure we still move forward with the um some of the the weather improvements on the back of the
building. and and and and Kate noted in in when she drafted the staff report, there's a lot of of of u maintenance and repair being done on this house and some of it that it very much needs, but those things are not what we would bring to you for review. So, you know, this is a
request again for the COA to add the garage to enclose the breezeway essentially construct a hallway connecting the new garage uh and to to do these window alterations on the back. And we're um staff I see no problem with
them and recommend approval. I know the applicants here um Kelly if you want to add anything to that question I have a question for staff. If we just approve the COA as submitted, does that in that sense say that we're approving the
zoning violation, if you will, like that we support the >> a violation, >> not violation, we we vary, >> we're we're supporting the the fact that this project would exceed the length allowable by the new zoning code. >> So, this is somewhat similar to well, not similar, identical to the fence
across the street here. Um, you're approving it if it meets your guidelines. uh whether uh and and I I >> I think you wanted us there was something where you wanted us to >> you just talked and said the opposite. I'm sorry to say that. >> Well, tell me where I said the opposite.
>> You said it would assist in the zoning. >> I can't hear you. >> You said it would assist in the approval >> for a special exception. >> It would be non-conforming, right? So it and so I think that if you were to
let's for B reasons say you don't agree with this garage and wanted to exclude it or remove it. Um then I would say omit that not deny and and I wouldn't deny anything I because this is just the first look at it but it would be to omit
something uh the garage or and Kelly can address this you know it might be the option might be to omit the um enclosed hallway and sort of that would at least avoid the the the zoning question for a while but kick it down the road but so
there's some permutations here but I I wanted to make sure just that because this is the first time you all have you all at B can defer something an applicant can request a deferral so I wouldn't anything that if there's anything part of this that you're not
comfortable with voting on and then some of the the the improvements on the back that are necessary you'd like to approve we approve those omit the things that aren't and the applicant can come back with a separate uh COA request at a later date >> I have another question for staff did I
understand you say that they are going to demolish the existing garage. >> Mhm. >> All the way down and they'll put a new one in with footings. >> Pretty much the same spot. Well, almost identical spot and just a little bit
deeper into the yard. >> And we are not required to give a COA for the demolition. >> Not in this case. No. I I think that that's not the the historic part of this building. the historic character reason
this is an IP. Um >> I thought you said the garage was 1930. It was Marshall Wells. >> Okay. >> Mistake. Just the the two additions towards back. >> Yeah. >> So that's Yeah.
>> Okay. >> Okay. Um questions for staff. My other question was my question was um on the Marshall Wells 1930s or I thought we said 40s but anyway um additions
um kind of around the old old structure. We're changing the windows on the back. What else are we doing? >> That's it on >> any modification any further modifications on those structures? >> I mean they're doing repairing some
roofs. There's some if you look and actually James you probably have some interesting insight there like the picture there on the the bottom the bottom right of the page um is uh how they've kind of ran that you know
the the sophet in there. You've got these huge um stone fireplaces. So, there's some there's some repairs that need to be done to keep water away from the historic building, but those are we're not reviewing those.
No. And so, yeah, the only um alterations to the the the 1937 additions. Um and actually, I think that the kitchen even that kitchen that that breakfast nook area is a later addition. Um, but now and I'm if you felt like the
garage was a problem and you wanted to to to remove it and talk about it, you certainly could. But I say I think the the remainder of the work uh it needs to be done and they're looking need to get >> When you say the um breakfast nook, do you mean the bay window? >> Yes.
>> And that's not Marshall Wells 1937. If you look at there's um >> I don't know >> the bay window at the front of the house is not being >> that's touched. >> Yeah, there because and the reason is there's a
>> it's the part that's says later >> says later expansion expansion. I suspect it is. And that's based on >> when there's a floor plan in a 1980s uh sales brochure and if you look at the
floor below, >> um it just suggests to me that that kitchen was added on. Now, you know, granted, yeah, a long time ago, but it it I don't think was I don't believe it was part of the 1937. And this survey
refers to uh the 1937 alterations and some later as if almost like recent, you know, to 1937 changes. This is this house is almost as complicated as the house on Hartman's Mill Road that that confounded us. So,
>> and maybe the applicant can answer my question, but thank you. I appreciate it. >> I'm sorry. Say that again. >> This is the breakfast room. This photo in the middle right here. This one is Oh, >> I'm referring to So, if you scroll down, there's a floor plan in that 1980. Uh,
>> keep going. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. And you'll see >> the one in the ad. Okay. >> And keep Yeah. Go one more. You'll see where it shows the basement space downstairs. Uh, there's Yeah. Where it says storage and util. So, there's some alignment that's a
little bit off. That storage room doesn't align with the breakfast room. So, I think that some things were added later. I could be wrong, but that's my best guess. Let's let Kelly, >> she spent time over there wondering, scratching her head more than I thought we would have.
>> I'm Kelly Trout. Um, I'm an architect with Robertson Renovations and New Construction. We're working with an engineer out of Pennsylvania who's helping us with this project. I I don't have a ton to uh to add to the presentation um apart from the fact that we're just trying to preserve what is
there. We have no interest in fundamentally changing what's there. Um, at the same time, we'd like to be able to bring it to modern usability. The spaces are small. The living spaces are very generous for the bedrooms, which
there are two bedrooms and two bathrooms currently, which is part of the effort to add the window well in the basement to try to bring a third and really connecting the garage. The garage is in terrible condition. it it will eventually demolish itself. Um, and no foundation,
no footing. Um, the existing HVAC and plumbing all runs exposed inside the garage to to the upstairs area. So, it's very poorly constructed and needs to be replaced. So our only ask really is to
replace that existing garage in largely the same footprint with the exception of a little bit of extension towards the back which does raise the ridge line just a touch in in order to keep uh maintain the existing pitch of the roof. Um I think it's a total of four feet
that it uh rises and then to connect the two buildings with a mud room that allows the rooms over the garage to become part of the living space. Um, we are fully aware of the zoning issues, um, and the fact that we're pretty stuck
in this project. Um, there's really no practical way to build a second story on any of what exists. Um, structurally not viable, even if we were to somehow convince BAR that putting two stories on
the back of that cabin made any kind of sense in respecting the cabin. Um there's just nowhere else to expand in this property. It's a very large parcel. Um and so that the house that exists there sort of does isn't well utilizing
this giant parcel and our our client would just like to have a couple extra bedrooms. And by that connection, um one change that from what is in your drawings is on the front facade. What is currently shown correct? Right there. um to the right of the second chimney, the
furthest right chimney. Um a part instead of being brick facade there, we're proposing to go back with siding so that it really does feel like an enclosure of that existing breezeway. Keep all those lines the same. Keep the
overhang so that it really delineates the new from the old, which I know is um important to the bar. Um, so we know that we have some zoning hurdles ahead of us, but um, as far as BAR goes, we'd
really appreciate approval of the project in its totality. >> All right. Thank you. >> Um, any questions from the public either here or online? >> I do have a hand raised. Uh, David
Heler. unmute. Sorry. Hi there. >> Hello. >> Can you hear me? >> Yes, we can. >> Okay. Um yeah, I'm we're the next door neighbors. Um we lived through the south of um the Murphy's. Um
and I had a question about the length of the the the fact that the property is exceeding the maximum length. If you add that breezeway, um does the maximum length or does that length right
limitation take into account the fact that the property is 2 and 1/2 acres and it's a very wide property. I mean the, you know, if you look at the existing structure, which is really the the new structures proposal sounds like
it's going to be about the same width as the um current one from the street. Uh it does not overwhelm the, you know, the site that it it sits comfortably within the very large site that it's on. And I just was at, you
know, that it struck me that the there aren't a lot of sites in the city that are pro that are this wide that are residential. And I'm not sure whether that should affect your assessment of what the maximum is.
>> That's a good question. Uh I don't know, Carl. >> The zoning doesn't the zoning doesn't differentiate between lot size. So it's it's just a fixed number in the zoning code. >> Okay. which is too bad. >> It is uh and I >> but but that behooves a waiver.
>> Kelly knows one. Yeah, she's been >> she could probably tell us the options better than I could explain them. Um but yes, sorry. It's been a uh a lot. I think they answered though the question that Mr. Hel raised is that yeah that
this this it is a result of the zoning you all can't overcome that um but uh but your recommendation if this is and as he said this this this fits I mean it's essentially just enclosing
a small section of breezeway uh so the masking and scale has not significantly changed uh um and particularly given the context of this site so I think that you all would be Um, you're not violating zoning by making a recommendation
because you can't a COA can't supersede that zoning. >> All right. Any other questions from the public? >> No. >> Right. Any questions from the BA? >> I have a question. Where is the low
pitched roof that you're going to put uh a different material on? >> It's on the very back, the enclosure of what we believe was at once a patio. It's actually got a really lovely slate floor inside of it. >> Um and it seems like that
>> exterior court courtyard was enclosed. That roof up there is failing. The skylight's failing. Just a lot of rotten water. So that would be the only section where I foresee uh membrane roofing. >> And what membrane are you proposing?
>> We propose EPDM, but we're open, you know, to whatever is, you know, there's >> And what is the slope? >> I say I don't know off the top of my head. >> Less than 312 is a rubber roof. We would put in
>> followup. What color EPDM? >> Black. >> Black. Yeah. What is the length limit? How far over are you just with the >> the length limit according to zoning is 60 ft. I believe the entire structure end to end if you include the garage now is 114 ft.
>> Um the main house alone exceeds 60 ft. Um so there's really no way to add >> to either side of the existing home. And in fact, the existing home is about 2700
square feet. So, we're also approaching the problem of the 3,000 square foot maximum per building on a site. So, we we there are several places where we get pinched um by the zoning code and
then being limited here. So, 114 ft is the answer to the to the question. Um and it is exactly what exists now. We do not propose any additional length. The only um change would be to infill that small piece between the existing garage
and the existing home. And it would remain behind that infill is also behind the existing breezeway which you can't even see the breezeway now because in that photograph that Kate you just had on page three up on the
right the um they've got such a giant holly there like that you almost can't the massing the addition would be pretty similar to what the holly is is showing us actually >> but but further back >> but it will you.
>> Yeah. So, it's behind the Holly behind the uh breezeway there. There's just that little section of breezeway that's masked there. >> Um, how far how far back is the facade of the garage from the front facade of
the house >> approximately? >> Jeff, I think I gave you that number at 1.2. It is not the 50 ft >> setup would that zoning would like us to have. >> That's the GIS that we have.
>> Is it It's in the footprint though of the original >> the exact same footprint uh with the exception of six additional feet to the rear. >> I just I'm curious what that little the bay on the front of the of the original
house. Anybody know where that came from? Was that original? I guess that probably was like the front door at some point. >> There was a discussion. Um, well, Kate, you you know better than I do. It was two maybe was two pavilions connected. >> There was two log cabinets that were
extended. And I mean, even in our city assessors file, we can't quite piece it together. Um, some of the best information is in this this old uh uh sales brochure. Uh, I was hoping to find where uh the architect's drawings might
be on record somewhere, but I wasn't able to find them. >> So, you think that was like a a dog trot almost sort of like an opening between >> I just sometimes sometimes that was the case. You might look at UVA special collections that they might have Marshall Swain's drawings.
>> Well, yeah. >> Started didn't have time to do full, but yeah. >> Well, the applicant could do that. >> Yeah. regardless or the applicant. >> They're not they're not proposing any change to that. So, it's it's a moot point. It's a curious question, but um
>> uh any other Where are we? >> Yeah, I think questions from the public. >> Thank you. >> Well, Wayne, I have one more question. It appears that the height that you're putting on the new garage and is identical than all the way across.
>> No, no, it's >> Oh, it's beer. It'll be 4 feet higher than the existing. >> Okay. >> I'll ask a leading question. Does it have to be higher? >> It does in order to get head height that meets code
>> because it seems like there's an apartment already there, but I guess it doesn't meet code, right? >> Uh, it does not. We'll just leave it there. Have >> we moved on to comments? >> Uh, no. That was a question. Okay. I don't think the public had questions yet.
>> They did. We had somebody online. >> Okay. That's right. Sorry. >> Judge Heler called him. >> All right. >> One other question. The chimneys are not operable. Sorry. >> Um, I don't believe any of them are currently functional.
>> Do you know, James? >> They're not. That's it's a good point because that's one of the main problems. The the gap between the house and the chimney and the way it's framed, all the water sheds off straight down the foundation
causing major leaves on the foundation of of that house. >> So trying to kind of fix all that, keep this place whole and still standing. It should have happened along that way. >> Where is that? Where is that happening? Is that that's on the rear?
>> That's the front. >> You can see it right here. >> It's the >> Yeah, that >> the ID cover. >> Oh, no. The one beyond it. Sorry. The second one to the left. >> Oh, I see. >> Down below. >> Right. It's right by the kitchen window.
That water runs off right under the kitchen. Right under the front porch. >> Yeah. >> And it just >> down. It's going, you know, goes it's going in the basement. It's just >> so this addition in a way is alleviating that. >> Yeah,
simply keeping the house from falling down. But that would be one of the kind of alterations that we do is try to remedy that. >> Yeah. flash it accordingly in and just try to >> repin those, you know, rebuild those foundation walls where they're bowing
and and were inadequate when they were built and have not been uh helped by the water infiltration over the years. >> Yeah, it's a flashing detail and and and you know where they're directing the water. It's that's but that's not
>> we're not again that's not on our agenda tonight. What is the exterior of the new garage going to be? >> It'll be uh Hardy plank siding similar to what can be seen on some of the
gables. >> It's a outlined all the materials on >> there is a list. Yeah, the application and the staff report uh outlined the materials and and even reference to the siding in le of the brick there uh that Kelly talked
about. So that's >> party point lap siding with similar to what's there? >> Any other questions from the board? >> There's a question from Do you have a question or a comment? We >> question >> um
>> and comment. >> All right, we'll just hold on. Let's do comments from the public. Go ahead. Come up. >> I thought you did have a question. >> He did, but we're past questions from the public. So, form it like a comment as best
>> again. So, I've been doing this work for 35 plus years. I'm 55 years old. From what I'm hearing, the place is not structurally sound. is on it's on unsolid ground and if it's not perked then it's going you're going
to continue to have the same situation or even worse. So how are you going to deal with the foundation before you deal with the structure is what we really need to know. How you going to deal with the foundation before you deal with the structure.
>> The foundation of the existing home. >> Huh? >> Yeah. We the plan is to excavate around all of the existing foundation drain tile waterproofing current code for foundation drains and
maintaining what's there rebuild what needs to be rebuilt in the foundation walls >> foundation first. >> Oh yeah. >> Okay. >> Thank you sir. That's a good question.
>> Mr. Heler has a comment online. Okay, Mr. Heler. >> Hi there. Um, we're we're fully supportive of all of the work that's being proposed here. Um, the the House needs work. I mean, they're very nice people, but the House does um the House
has not had a lot of um uh TLC in the 15 years we've lived here. Um, uh, this sounds great. And the the garage is a dump right now. >> I mean, Bark lives there, but oh my
goodness. I mean, it so so it's great that they're going to replace it and put something in that's not sagging and whatever. So, for what it's worth, the neighbors support this activity. >> Okay. Thank you.
Uh any other comments from the public? All right. Comments from the B. >> I'm ready to make a motion if there are no comments. >> I just want to say I'm glad that I I I the 1937 additions by Marshall Wells are
significant. Um I I I mean you can't say they're the most important part of the house because the log cabin certainly is, but they're important. There are significant properties in Amar County where people have fought to maintain Marshall Wells's structures like tooth
and nail. I won't go into it, but so I don't agree with staff saying that those are not important additions. They're just as important as the original structure. And thank you for preserving what you can um in those additions because they're it it has perpetuated the use of the house. This house
wouldn't have been used for the last century had as a log cabin unfortunately on the street and with current usage. So it allowed the home to be lived in. >> Um I'm supportive of other right. >> Oh not on that street.
>> Oh no James this is James. >> Okay. >> Um I staff didn't say did I just want to be clear. We did not discount the importance of of of the wings. I'm just trying to get the chronology of when things occurred. Uh so I in no way I I
do disregard the garage. Uh but um >> we'll we'll listen to video. >> I'm supportive of whatever motion you're going to make. >> So I um my only comment is that and it's it's deceiving a little bit because this elevation view doesn't have the depth in
it. And so, um, I do feel like the ridge line of the garage being higher than the roof is regrettable, but I think the fact that it's pushed back from the house helps mitigate that. Um, just wanted to kind of say that on the record, but I do support the project.
>> And I'll just add that I have no problem with the zoning issue. Um, you know, I think that um you're you're doing what you need to do. Um, you're um maintaining the same footprint. you're not, you know, um, uh, increasing the
size in any way. Um, you're obviously, um, putting a lot of, uh, um, money into the resources into the project to save what's a really interesting house. So, fully in support of it. >> Okay. Go. Okay. Um, having considered
the standards set forth within the city code, including the ADC district design guidelines, I move to find the proposed re rehabilitations, alterations, and new garage at 1615 Keith Valley Road, satisfy the V's criteria and are compatible with this individually protected property, and that the B approves the application as submitted
with the following conditions. Per the design guidelines, doors and windows with insulated glass and simulated divided lights will have internal spacer bars, new gutters will be half rounded, and the downspouts will be full round. In addition, the VR knows that the approval of the COA for the new garage is for the design review only and does not authorize any work requiring a
building permit, nor does it supersede the city's code of development, which the proposed work must comply with. >> Second, >> before you all vote, Carl, you comfortable? I mean, I that language makes sense as as far as it I mean, it's
it needs to comply with the code. Yeah. Okay, good. Yeah. Okay. All right, I'll call any discussion. Excuse me. Well, I guess we just had a little bit. Any further discussion? All right, I'll call a vote. Uh, Mr.
Rosenthal, >> yes. >> Miss Tab, >> yes. >> Mr. Timberman, >> yes. >> Miss Lewis, >> hi. >> Mr. Bailey, >> yes. >> Mr. Schwarz, >> yes. >> I vote yes. Uh, motion carries. Thank you all very much for >> your efforts in preserving this very old
house. second. >> That's a heck of a >> All right. Um that concludes our new items. Uh we are now on to the pre-application
conferences. Uh per the motion that was made, if anyone wasn't here at the beginning of the meeting, um we made a motion to limit the discussion with the applicants for both of the preliminary discussion topics to 30 minutes. We are going to allow public comment. Um we're
not going to do a separate comment and question just all in one. We're going to limit public comments to two minutes per speaker and that's just out of respect for everyone's time. Um we got a lot of folks that want to speak. So um our first discussion is
>> are we timekeeping? >> Okay, can do that. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Um 8:35 843 847 West Main Street uh multi-story housing development project. Um so we'll start with a staff report and then have a presentation from the
applicant or do we have yeah staff report? >> Yes. Yes. So, this came before you all in August of 2025, August 19th, for a pre-application conference, which is
required by code. And the um proposed lot is here in the West Main Street ADC district. It's currently mainly a parking area right after you cross the bridge on this section of West Main, which is sub area B of our district.
So you here see two um elevations of what was proposed in August and a new design which is the point of this discussion today. Uh continue discussion to address um the response of the applicant to your previous comments um
from those modifications. And again just to remind everyone that no action is to be taken tonight. This is just a continued discussion and the applicants are here with their presentations. >> Great. >> Any questions
>> for staff? >> Okay. Applicant would like to come up and give their presentation that would be great. >> And I would just advise council to sort of use the notes under the discussion. Um, some of it's the boilerplate stuff,
but you'll see on middle of chapter 3 or page three, I've also uh inserted some some specific comments uh and questions that you all may want to >> I can't use what you're saying. >> All right. And so in in the discussion
if you guys can work through use it as a framework for your questions and then I said there's a section on page three about the additional comments that I've added that I think are more specific than the generic um that's just my suggestion you go through those use that
as a checklist >> on page three >> and I put them up here just for quick reference. Um, >> so I can share my copy if it would help. Um, but so that's, you know, said the usual stuff from, you know, the the type
of information you're looking for. Uh, does it have elevations you want to see? Are there any details you want to see? Are there any sections you want to see? Uh but then I have like I said some specific things that I've noted that I had advised the applicant might be uh likely
additional information that you all would request but there's no need for them to provide that if if if you all don't think it needs to be provided. So that I just wanted to point that out. And then uh uh we did do a little bit of an analysis about height and massing and
spacing, but uh this is on West Main, so there's not a everything's up on the street and we have an interesting sub area that has >> very few old buildings. >> So, um so yeah, let's
now you can go forward. Okay. >> Hey, welcome. >> Thank you. Uh can we get do we need to get promoted to be able to share screen? No, you should just be able to share from your Zoom window. >> Please speak in the microphone. What you
said there? >> I think all everybody needs to speak into microphones. Um, a member of the public said they couldn't hear you just a little while ago. >> Not sure what that is. Do you have a separate is it a separate
present? my computer so I can drop it in here. recess. I was about to say, do you want a fiveminute recess? >> 2 minutes or less. >> Let's do Let's do 5 minutes. We'll reconvene at 7:00. Just bio break if
anybody needs the restroom. I thought you just ate. Do you know why they changed? birthday available. Yeah, there's a whole bucket of It's 7 o'clock. I'll pull us uh call us
back to order, please. >> All right. Uh so got the presentation on screen. Um and we're ready to hear from LV Collective. So if you guys would like to go ahead with your presentation, please. >> All right. Hi, my name is Britney Sanders. Sorry, I am losing my voice, so
I won't speak long. Um, I just thought it was really important for me to come up here and speak as the lead developer on this project and just kind of set the tone for the presentation. Um, I was at the last P uh meeting. I was not in a project lead role at the time, but I was
here, heard feedback firsthand. Um, I heard the community's feedback firsthand, and I think what you're going to see today is a thoughtful and direct response to both levels of those feedback, specifically around the height. Um, with it coming down from 11
stories to eight and six, we didn't just step it, we ripped the band-aid off to try to be very respectful of the the feedback. And then also the walkway was something else that was really important. um we now have direct access
um to West Haven's uh walkway that's there and then we're also proposing to carry that across Main Street in the form of a pedestrian and enlarged celebrated pedestrian connection. There are still ongoing conversations with the community. Not everybody's concerns have
been met, nor do I think they will be met. Um but LV is at the table and I think we've made some productive progress. Um and we hope to continue that progress uh by the time we actually come back in in a month. Thank you.
>> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you everyone. Uh good evening. Uh my name is Muhammad Nosen. I'm an architect with Niles Bolton here to represent uh LB Collective. Uh appreciate your time. Uh I was here last August when we uh presented this project
and got a lot of feedback from the community and feedback from the board. Uh, and I'm excited to kind of run through some of the updates that took place over the last few months. Uh, when we met August, there was really kind of three main things that a lot of the conversation centered around. One was
the overall height, uh, number of stories, the scale of the building in general. Two was the connection, the pedestrian connection from West Haven to, uh, West Main. And then three was some input and feedback on the overall architectural direction that we've received. Uh these building sections
here at the top, I think they tell the story better than any other uh type of drawing. Uh the left side there is what we've presented back in August. The right side is what we've done after the reduction of three stories. So we're now a total of eight stories. Uh it's no longer a high-rise building. Uh in terms
of code compliance, uh we are 70 under 75 ft to the top residential level. We're type three construction, so we are wood on the top five levels, concrete on the bottom three. Uh and the overall building height from average grade to top of roof will need to remain below 85
feet in total. Section below kind of cuts uh north south uh proposed development on the left. West Main on the left and it cuts all the way through feature development for West Haven to show the stepping and how the scale has kind of become a lot more uh natural in
terms of the height progression. I'm going to scroll through a few slides uh that show the before and after. Uh left is before, right is after. West Haven uh latest uh uh proposed development is highlighted in green. You
can kind of see the scale difference here between what we presented back in August versus what we are uh presenting today. This is party and eth and then the view from 10th and page. And these are a couple of highle views
looking uh along west main from the east and west. bottom is proposed. The next thing we talked about is the uh connection. Uh and you can see in the current development here, this is zoomed out obviously with the overall context.
You can see that what we presented back in August uh had the connection running uh right to the middle of our block coming around the building on the east side coming all the way down against the parking edge and then uh back along the sidewalk due to some great challenges
and then to West Main uh about midblock. And what we're showing now is kind of a sweet connection. We've worked with uh with the community. We've worked with West Haven. Uh it was a lot of discussions uh and and we've now kind of aligned the pedestrian connection or
pedestrian prominade uh from West Haven all the way uh to West Main and it kind of uh aligns along the the west end of the building. That secondary line there is still a pedestrian connection that's that exists uh and it and it also takes you to West Main right by the bridge
intersection on the uh on the south uh east corner of our development. Uh I'm going to scroll through a couple of slides just very high level. These are kind of some uh landscape uh and and horsescape studies starts to talk about the um precedent imagery that we're
looking at in terms of the screening along the west edge. The type of material used at the uh the walkway, the planters, the furniture, a lot of the pavement. uh as we as we kind of work through the portion of the pedestrian uh
connection that we'll need to connect uh vehicular access into the parking deck uh versus what is there only for service uh and maintenance uh and you know for the cell tower and potentially the transformers if if there's ever service required. Uh the the um the connection
here is a 22 feet wide uh pedestri vehicular connection, 8 ft wide pedestrian connection and then 3 ft of landscape buffer in a screen. Uh once we get past the entries to the parking, you can see kind of through the pavement pattern here. It really gets to it starts to celebrate the pedestrian
connection. Uh furniture along the plaza. We've got a plaza proposed along West Main here. Um and uh and you can see the the type of furniture, the type of lighting that's proposed uh and then just overall the character and imagery.
Um um I understand uh that uh Water Street will be brought in uh to continue the discussion, the ongoing discussion uh and uh and continue the collaboration with the neighbors. Uh quickly looking at the building
plans. Uh this is kind of the ground level frontage along West Main entirely active use. We've got this uh cafe area in green and then amenities and leasing on the right. Uh uh parking parking behind it. This is the mezzanine level. Some additional amenities uh on the on
the first level above ground and then we start to pick up residential. Uh this is the perspective view kind of at the middle of West Main uh where the signage is kind of our front door. The left side of this image is proceeding associated with the cafe. Uh,
and you can see just a lot of attention to that public realm and the detailing at the street level, whether it be the materiality, the the the brick material, the coursing, the stepping or the corbelling kind of at that at that band uh above the building base, the amount
of transparency and glazing. And then just the use of landscape and pavement patterns to really activate the streets. There you go. Uh this is the typical residential level. Uh and we above level six we have a step back. So level seven
and eight on the right side there. You see there's a big step back there. Uh and uh and that's what we've s we've seen in the section in the in the beginning. So the um you know we've got double you know it's a double quarter donut levels three to six and then levels seven and eight we have a step
back. Level eight, we also pick up an amenity and a terrace uh at the bottom right corner of the plan. This is the front elevation along West Main. Um, you know, we we've we've heard uh encouragement to use uh more masonry
along the frontage and uh along the edges as we turn the corner. Uh and and so we've got a mix of uh u uh masonry, fiber cement with different colors and then obviously at the base glazing and some accent metals. This is a zoom in.
It shows the detailing. It shows the articulation. It shows the the uh the focus on the public realm uh elements. uh that uh is is really key and important to this development. A couple of quick renderings before I wrap it up. Uh this is kind of a this is a view
looking over the bridge looking at the at the overall development. So we know that there's this this development is right by the rail. There's going to be uh a lot of open views on on West Main uh uh headed towards our building. And so we've we've kind of rearranged and reconfigured the overall massing,
simplified it some, brought more masonry to that side here. And of course with the skill reduction just overall the proportions uh improved considerably. I know when we met last time there was the feedback related to like how tall and how heavy and bland that corner felt
when we intended to really celebrate it. And so you kind of see the the progress from last meeting to now. Here's a little bit of a closeup again kind of at that bridge intersection. And then uh here's what we have before.
And then this is the uh this is the west facing facade. This is facing the standard. Basically that's the pedestrian prominard elevation. Uh and this is the perspective view kind of looking at where that pedestrian connection uh ties to West Main. Uh that that uh crossing here is kind of shown a
little bit pushed, you know, pushed a little bit more west. We we would like to work with the city and and the community to be able to get that to line up with the with the um pedestrian access. And then that's what we've shown uh on the last round.
This is the north elevation. This is the east elevation facing the rail. And then just a couple of the enlarged views uh should we need to reference those in terms of the overall context. Materials as I mentioned brick veneer uh that color uh that beige color
and then three colors of fiber cement panel. Um thank you very much for the time. We're happy to answer any questions. >> Thank you. Nice job keeping in 10 minutes. I really appreciate that. I think we all do. So >> kuda. That's a pat on the back, man. Good job. Um,
great. Uh, so I'm going to try to figure out if we if we want to allow for public comment and then come back to our discussion with the applicant. How do you all feel?
>> Maybe go maybe. Maybe go for it. uh allow public comment now conclude our interaction that lasts 20 minutes with the applicant. >> So I think that makes sense because that way we can hear what the public has to say and then perhaps we can form >> some of those into our own questions and
it'll it'll inform our questions and comments. Um so I'm going to invite the public up. Uh just a reminder, please state your name. Um keep your comments succinct. Please keep your comments to the B purview. That is the exterior of the building. Um,
and I think that's about two minutes. >> Two minutes. >> Two minutes. Thank you. Uh, had a third thought, but it'll come back to me. Um, >> good. >> All right. So, who'd like to come speak about the project? >> There we go.
>> Hey everybody, my name is Brandon Collins. um always one to talk, so I'll try to be brief. Um I've lived in Charlottville my whole life. Uh my children have lived here their whole lives. Um and I've had the serious honor
and privilege to work with uh residents of West Haven on the planning for their future redevelopment. Um and it's been uh from our end I think meaningful not without challenges uh and not without a whole lot of hard
work. Um some of those uh residents are here today. I do work for CRA but these are kind of my own observations in dealing with our resident planners. Um, so the first thing I think to point out is that uh at least our resident
planners and I think most of the community in general, this this is really a first look at a new uh revision to their plan. Um, the ones we've kind of been going off of are the ones in August. I know there's been some conversations about uh what LV may or
may not be willing to do and tweak, but um our planners, at least our resident planners at West Haven, which they're about 30 uh steady participants and probably an overall about 70 uh with uh over 90% of the community participating in our process. Um they haven't had a
chance to evaluate this at all. We've we've got tons of work to do. Um, and our assumption all along has been that when LV is ready to uh maybe make some commitments that they would sit down with the community and with our residents and evaluate any proposed
changes. Um, that said, I can see that they've tried to work with what some of what they've heard. Um I think it's really important for the BA to understand that um at eight stories um the height and scale and mass of this
building uh is still an adverse impact on the neighborhood. Part of that's because they're set down on a hill and it was done done done on purpose to separate the community. Um so that's something we have to work with. Um, so no matter what happens, no matter uh the
the proposed changes at eight stories, even just on West Maine, uh there's going to be opposition to this, right? And so uh one of the things is that to mitigate that, uh is to work with LB on a community benefits agreement. That's not your concern. You're concerned about
design. Um so what are the things that might make sense? So, this was based on an older drawing, but um >> sorry, we're gonna limit it to two minutes. I'm so sorry if you want to hand it. >> All right, I'm going to give you this. It's a very crude drawing. Uh basically cutting these corners to
allow for visibility. Uh deeper stepbacks on uh on the south uh east and west sides of the buildings um uh with a little set in. I think they're sort of looking at that. Anyways, >> have you shared this with the applicant?
Um, not yet. Um, I'm I'm sure some will at some point, but you know, if I were you, and yes, we want to work with Water Street Studio. Um, residents, um, core demand is being able to design that memory walk out to West Main Street. And
it's awesome that we can work with Water Street Stu Studio to do that. We haven't sat down and done that work. And if I were the B, I would want to see that design before even considering any kind of approval. Um, and certainly the residents need to be able to present
that to you all uh and and have you take a look. So that's all I got. >> Great. Thank you, Mayor. Appreciate that. Anyone else? >> Sure. Go ahead. My name is Earl Hicks. I'm also a West a
West Haven um planner, also West Haven um resident. I still don't like the building. We haven't seen proposals uh changed before the agreement was posted.
Design changes needed to be made, but without a significant reduction in height, it would still be a negative impact on our neighborhood.
So other so other steps needed to be taken work with residents for our approval of design changes. Residents to have full control over the planning of the memory wall
to West Haven to uh West Main Street. And what I wanted to say is that as I stand in here as a resident, as a resident planner, um I still propose the building still too big, even a
eight. Um, I've seen the additions, but still when you when you come in somebody's neighborhood, you need to sit at the table with them >> and let them know and and be a partner with them, not come through the back
door and figure, okay, here we are. This is what we're going to do. And and we should go along with it. >> It don't work in my book like that. Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you. HEY y'all again. All right. I'm Angela. Angela Carr. I'm a resident of
Charlesville, Virginia. I used to be a resident of West Haven. That was the very first uh core neighborhood that I had lived in when I first moved to Charlottville, Virginia. But um I just feel like it is I just have a kind of a comment, you know, but I feel like it is kind of inconsiderate like you said, Mr.
Earl to come in to a neighborhood and take full control and not have any consideration for the people that lives in the neighborhood or how they would feel or um how that would affect their lives, the daily lives or how the building would affect how they normally get to Main Street to get to the stores
or how how everything's so um just in arms reach. And now like you're proposing a big huge building. It is just kind of like what are you going to do for the neighborhood that you're you know that you're proposing the building to be in front of also. Um >> I kind of feel like uh I mean I feel
like but this was my very first time seeing you guys and it was like a really you know like I I I've never had any communication with you guys. I've never seen you guys at any meeting. I've never seen you guys at any table ever. I've never seen them. So this was like a
surprise when they stood up today and I was like oh this is LB Collective. It was really a surprise. So when you say you've worked with the community, my mom told me not to call anyone a liar, but that is a fit because you have not worked with the community. If you've worked with the community, we would have
seen you walking through West Haven. You're not on the cameras. So I know for sure that they're not working with the community. So again, I would urge the BA to, you know, dismiss the application until they come back with more information from the community themselves that this is going to
actually affect. And also with the memorial wall, it's kind of like how can you make a choice with a wall that you you what do you know the history behind it? You know, so it's kind of like how can you just take full control of something? It's not fair. It's not right. That's like someone coming into your home and walking right past you and
your wife and not speaking but taking their shoes off and getting comfortable. Like you don't you address the people that live there, you know? That's how you that's how you do it respectfully. So and that's how you gain respect and that's how you gain the community's trust. And you also gain the community's trust by having a listening ear, you
know, when someone's talking, but that's just my opinion. Thank you. >> Thank you, Miss Carr. Appreciate it. >> Hey there, >> Uriah. Right. >> 35 years, like I said, 17 years building here in Charlottville, restoring the Jefferson building, working with the
YMCA, working with Faulner, working with uh pretty much every company out here. Also, Rainbow Restoration, Fischersville, and here in Charlottville for UVA. Highly experienced in every part of a house from the ground up.
And um the thing that I want to bring to the table is this. I see a lot of bars around here. What I don't see is that many shelters. I don't see a place where these people can go to get off our corners so that
these people can enjoy their walks, walk their dogs, and the children. We need to apply ourselves to something other than bars. I think we got enough bars and cafes going on around here. Most of the
uh poorer people can't even afford to go in half of them. So, I mean, we're not communicating with each other. We're not I mean, other than me coming in and pulling a shift and serving you guys. I mean, I don't get to even talk to you guys unless I'm outside giving snowballs to the kids for free or something like
that. So, I do a lot of my work myself. Um I do try to collect donations. I do have three projects that I'm working on. One for the senior citizens to get them to and from their buildings instead of them having to walk to the bus lines, one for the children, the poor children
to get to the outings and set places where they can't experience the experiences of the other kids. And I got a store bus, low economy bus that I'mma have with care packages for the low economy areas. I hear y'all talking a lot about the
places that's already established and making money and doing things, but I don't really hear y'all talking a whole lot about the places that are not established and that still need help. I'm out here every day. I work with the public. I work and I use my own money. I
buy chips and stuff and flip them for extra quarter so that I can do my projects. It don't take much for me to pray to my Lord and put a quarter together to make another quarter. Uh when I try to ask for donations, a lot of the time I don't my my family is
not all my family because all of them don't apply to me the same. But I still have to work my way through it. I still have to take the rejections. I still have to forgive them and love them at the at the end of the day and wake up the next morning and serve them again.
And I have no problem with doing that. I need you guys to be attentive to us as well. >> Okay, >> have a good night. >> Appreciate it, URIAH. THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT. >> Good evening everyone. How are y'all doing? >> All right. >> Um,
one of the things I do want to point out is um that when we first came and heard about this the um project, the height was always a issue. the height is still an issue. Um they're proposed they went
from 11 to eight but if you looking at the remnants back there it is still equal maybe a little bit higher than the standard and the standard is still a negative effect um for us in um um West Haven in the 10th and Page neighborhood.
Um but however I we have Miss Britney has been reaching out has reached out to Far and we have had a couple of meetings a some meetings some question weren't asked and then there has been some conversation lately about what a
community benefit could look like and we talked about a lot of things about the preserving the community, preserving the neighborhood um you know services to the neighborhood But the one thing that they could not commit to is lowering the height to 65
and because and what they're basically saying is that 65 wouldn't make him any money. And so basically what we are asking and what we are saying and um today the presentation Miss Britney the presentation that he showed today I wish
we had that also to be able to talk about. So Brandon is correct. We haven't seen this. What you all saw tonight is the first time we're seeing it. However, the height is still too much for us. Um
Britney said the other day in a me in a conversation, she said, "Well, if we walk away, whoever own that lot is going to go and find somebody else." The difference is that if they walk away,
>> the person who owned that land now knows you have to do this better. You have to stay with the community. You have to get with the community and so we can build something that each um all the community tank and page plus the developer is
satisfied with and then you won't have us pushing back where we're coming here with a collective voice. So, no to the eight stories um 65 and please make sure we get a copy of
what you presented here today for we did not have that. Thank you. >> All right. Any other comments from >> I want to know >> I'd like to know how many people will be employed by this building like how many
community how many employers will be employing this building >> right I'm sorry that's outside work >> that's outside our purview >> that's outside our purview it's >> like this this board is really focused on the architectural impact of the >> building thank you um I did want to
clarify really quick our last speaker when said 65. Are you saying do you prefer six stories on the West Haven side? >> Uh you're so so presenting um I think >> eight stories. >> They're presenting 87 or 86.
>> We're seeing six on the front, five in the back. >> Okay, that's for Thank you. >> Just wanted to clarify >> um some of our res the compromises most of our residents. Thank you for reminding me residents. Not what they said at first, but I went to a
hospitalized answer. It's 54, but we knew that they weren't going to do 54. So, I said, "Okay, 65." >> Okay. Okay. >> So, that's what I've been taking into the room, but the residents actually wanted five in the front and four in the
back. >> Gotcha. Thank you. >> All right. And would you like to speak, Frank? Hi. Yes, my name is Frank Becker. I live in Fville. Um there's a point that is raised at these meetings that pertains
to what's already been discussed in this presentation uh about that your purview uh concerns the external appearance and um I know there are guidelines that often reference the cultural and uh
historical and architectural character of the building. of cultural. I've always wondered how that those two statements only the appearance on the external side and cultural character etc. How the board views the linkage or non-linkage of those I would think
they're linked. Um the applicant here did present and is emphasizing uh the public area and that presumably involves the people who would use that public area. So, I would want you to be
able under your guidelines, under your considerations to consider who's there, the people using the public walkway, the memory walk, um, as part of the external appearance so that you you don't have any feelings that you can't consider the
kinds of people who are there because obviously they'll be the residents, but perhaps the applicant is trying to make room for uh, the residents. of West Haven too. And I think that would be a very good thing and uh so that's a point of uh a technical concern that I hope
you can uh resolve in that way. >> Thank you, Frank. >> All right. Sure. >> Um hi, my name is Wendy Gao. I'm a community member here to support the residents of West Haven and Tenth and Page. Um, as people have already said,
this building is currently sitting at eight stories right now, and that's the reduction. We can't have historical amnesia. Eight stories is the size of the standard, I'm pretty sure. And the standard was already a giant stain on Charlottesville's continued inability to grapple with its history of violence,
white supremacy, and dispossession of black people. If we cannot even remember the mistake that was the standard, how can we even attempt to begin grappling with more violence with Vinegar Hill, with enslavement? LV Collective is up here talking about a memory walk for
Vinegar Hill and urban renewal when they are enacting the same violence that Vinegar Hill and Gospel Hill enacted. Residents have said over and over that they want their memory walk to be celebrated and in the open and to be remembered. They want the his They want
the public to actively be grappling and sitting with this history. They don't want it in an alley. LV Collective's current proposal puts the West Haven Memory Walk between two eightstory buildings and a road for maintenance and and trash and service vehicles. I can
tell you that remembrance of Vinegar Hill will not be found in any meaningful way amid the rumble of maintenance service vehicles. students buying $11 lattes from a cafe that no resident can afford or between two buildings that cement Charlottesville's legacy of white
supremacy. Last thing, I think that this discussion about community engagement, the thing about community engagement is the community gets to dictate what counts as that. So LB Collective doesn't get to come up here and say that they are sitting at the table or that they are talking to residents when people here have said that this is the first
time that the residents have seen this plant. That shouldn't be the the case. the residents need to get the plan before you all. And the fact that that's not the case means that these people don't understand what community engagement looks like. And if they're just talking to a select group of people, then that also means that
there's likely tokenization and not actual real engagement with the residents of West Haven, the people who will be most affected by this building. >> Thank you. >> All right. Um, thank you all for your comments. Appreciate that. Uh it's 7:30.
Um so we have I think we got to about 7:15. Uh so we still have 15 minutes left to discuss with the applicant based on the motion that Lewis made at the beginning of the meeting. >> Are you done? >> You know that gives all of us like less than two minutes, right? Or about two
minutes. >> You you voted against the motion. So >> I did. >> I believe I can respond for a few minutes. >> Sure. >> Are there no more for any more comments. Is that we're having a limited >> Okay. She's never been here before.
>> Okay. >> If you want to speak. >> Sure. Two minutes. >> Oh, yeah. >> Is anybody on there? >> Hello, Zion Bryant. Speaking as an individual, not as an elected. Um, but
so I do have concerns about the I share the concerns that the residents have about the hype, but I do want to say that just because we're talking about community engagement, Britney has been um she has been trying to engage with the Tenth and Page Neighborhood
Association. And so a conversation that we had yesterday that lasted about two hours um had a lot of things discussed during that conversation. And I think one of the main things that the neighborhood, just to be transparent, is having to sit with and like think
through is if the height does not decrease, what are the actual benefits to the neighborhood as far as that density goes? And so I think like though this is be technically beyond your purview, it is important to think about how if city council for example is pursuing
this agenda of wanting higher density and wanting taller buildings with the idea of creating more affordable housing which they believe in trickle down economics. People have differing opinions about that. But in this context we have to think about what will those
benefits be to the community. And I think it's kind of it is a hard job to be able to have this conversation in the way that you are expected to without thinking about all of those things. Like if it is taller, how much added affordability will be included in that building? And again, though that's
outside of your scope, I do think that that should be a question that is presented in this space and maybe discussed a little bit when you talk with the applicant. Um because I can say confidently that though everyone does not agree on the height, Britney has
been trying to bring some sort of benefits to the Tint and Page neighborhood and it does expand just beyond West Haven. I mean there's Rose Hill Neighborhood Association that was at the table. There's Tint and Page Neighborhood Association. There's a lot of homeowners in that space too who will
have their taxes increased and things of that nature because of this building. So, I just hope that we can have a more comprehensive conversation and give LV more time to actually work out some of those benefits that they can provide along with this project. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right.
>> Wow. >> Um before you speak, uh do we have anybody online? No. Anybody else from the public here that would like to speak? Sorry, Miss Bryant. I'm apologize, Miss Bryant. Didn't mean to cut you off um
ahead of time. Okay, Britney, >> it's going to be hard to follow that, especially with my voice. Um I don't I don't want to get into the specifics of the community benefits agreement because I respect the community and I want to have those conversations offline. Um so
I only want to talk through the one thing that does relate to your purview and that's the memorial walk. Um I've really struggled with that and uh not the concept. Um, when Jeff reached out and and said, "Hey, you need to have
materials on this." And I said, "Do you understand what that does to my ability to communicate to the community that they should design this?" So, I'm kind of caught between two processes. But just to go on the record, my goal is to
have the community design that the reason I set the building back is to create a public plaza so that it isn't just between two buildings. The reason that I gave up more density than I could afford to give and allow that connection to go around both sides of the building
is to give the history what it deserves, which is visibility. And do I know what that history is? I know what I've read. I haven't lived it. And I need the people that have lived it to design it. That's all I want to say. >> Can Can I Yeah, I want to clarify too
when I spoke with Britney and uh you know, I'll tip my hat to to the work I'll tip my hat to the work that Britney's put into uh reaching out to me and asking me questions about this. And one of the things that I advised was
this memorial walk appears to be um a a design intent uh that will be developed in time over time with the folks in West Haven. And I asked the question of is this
um is this part of should they want to come forward in this summer for a design review of this building the architecture of the building and and and of course this space to the side. Um, are they bringing a design a finished
design for that public space or and my suggestion was then whatever it is that is sort of a you you've set it aside, you have to finish it. I mean, it is a paved access point. Uh, I think they have some perial paving. They might have
some furniture in there. But as far as putting memorialization there, um, and and to whatever extent that the community uh, recommends, the timing of of of a review of that seems to be, you know, I if they're
going to go through a process, you all can't review a design until it's completed later. So trying to separate those two um and but it also falls where I I think when a community's had input on the design of a public space or a
park uh you know does that does that should that come to the BR for you know uh you don't want to have a space that's been uh created with community input and then you know it's like Belmont bridge it's you know a community came up design
does does B say we don't like that design so I'm trying to separate the memorial walk out of this a little bit because it allows the neighborhood the freedom to work with the applicant, the applicant the freedom to to sort of treat that space as a blank canvas at
this point. Uh to the extent that you have something that you can review and allow the project go forward because uh if it's if we're suspending everything until the memorial walk design is done, I don't I don't know how we get there from here. So that's that's I and then
also with the community benefits agreement. That's something that they've been working with through the city manager's office and enforcement of that. I and I I admire the work they're putting into that, but I'm trying to keep that again somewhat separate from it's it's outside of your purview as the
bar. Uh all admirable things. We want to see it happen, but I'm trying to contain what comes to you as an application later this summer into something that that you can act on and to take anything that might be aspirational and separate
that out. So, I wasn't saying just ignore that space or don't talk about the materials there. I was saying if there's things that are going to go in there later, then that later will be addressed later. Is that >> and I completely agree with that. I don't think signify anything different.
The goal of today and the reason that I was supportive of not having a vote is because just as much as the community's feedback is important, your feedback is also important. It's not one or the other. I kind of have to have feedback from everybody so that I can figure out
where to go from here. So that's what today hopefully is is to get feedback from everyone and I recognize that feedback is going to continue from the community. I know their position on the height and I encourage them to continue to speak on it. Let's have a healthy
dialogue in this. I think that's very possible moving forward. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> I just want to speak on sorry my name is Kalita Wood and I'm quite the resident. I wanted to speak on the Benica Hill
monument or walk or whatever is because I live that history. Most of those people are dead and gone. Their children don't half of them don't live in Charlottesville and they don't know what Vinnica Hill was like. They don't know the history of Venica Hill. Um, you're going to put a
walk there to pe for people that don't know the history. Then I think you need to put a room space inside that building so people can come and sit and talk about the history or learn the history. Put a classroom there. put books there
that have that history of Venica Hill and what you've heard. Go out and talk to the people and find out what it is that they would like to see in that building. I mean, nobody's going to walk up and down a memory walk and you just walking through. I mean, stop and look
around. Go have a seat and talk to people about their history. Um, that's all I have. >> Thank you. All right. Um, anyone else Okay. Good afternoon, I mean evening. Um,
Rosia, um, my thing is I can't understand if they've been studying this from the numbers that I've seen since the early part of early late part of 20s, but before now with so it's been some years that they have been studying this and
when you look at the height that we've already been put down, what would make you want to have a building that high, you know, over top of the people even Even though I understand that they might not know the true history, but when you're coming to a place and you're
willing to build, you're already supposed to know these things in place before you get to where you're at. And the disrespectfulness of how the presentations and the communications and whatever LV has
brought to us as residents in um at West Haven has been very disrespectful. you know, they going to tell us we basically had the audacity had the audacity to basically say, "Y'all are lucky we're even giving y'all the plans, you know, and then you wait until we had the master plan in."
>> So for you to wait till the master plan come in, then all of a sudden you're opposing this big building. So it feels like we're down in the bottom, but we have this high um extremity over top, you know, overshadow and it makes it
dark and the shadowing, you know, the standards is already shadowing, you know, West Haven. So we really don't have too much sunlight, you know, so that plays a big part. Then we're already down, like I say, we're deep down. So imagine all that water, you
know, even though they're fixing it, but it's a lot of water drain. You know, it's a lot of stuff that is down in that bottom that people really haven't saw, you know, that we're just now we're just now as a community after being built in 1950, we're just now getting into redevelopment. But I felt it harmful for
them to just bring this plan after our master plan goes in. So I just hope y'all have a good um thought on, you know, when y'all make y'all's decisions. Thank you. >> THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT. Anybody else? We good?
All right. Thank you. Uh, now let's um if the applicant wants to come back up uh and we can talk about the the uh architecture of the building and its impacts. Um
>> maybe Miss Richardson can put the talking points back up. >> That'd be helpful. Would you like would you like the full list from the staff report or just the slide with the materials and the returns? I think >> the slide would be helpful. >> Yeah.
>> Um I think uh this is you know obviously there's a lot of feelings around this project. I think that uh I know that a lot of y'all were in the room with me uh few weeks ago at the city council meeting. We're discussing another large
project. Um I think the tenor of the city council from that meeting uh is supportive of uh growth and adding more buildings in the city. And so I think that ultimately something's going to get built here. I think the goal is to try and all work together to try and find
something that um the city can be proud of and the in the various communities within the city can be proud of. So, um just prefacing that. Um and I think that you know if we can try and stick to our um guidelines and uh review this based
on what we see in front of us as best we can is the is the best we can do. Um so I think we just rattle down the list. Um I'll start really quickly by just saying that um I appreciate the reduction in
height uh that y'all have done. I think some of the brick details y'all done on the um the corbulling at the top of the base of the building is handsome. Uh I would like to see something similar at the top of the building like a cornice feature. I think it it maybe not on
every single portion of the building, but the the corner that's closest to the bridge and the train track seems like it could have a a cornice there that would give that some prominence. Um, so that's just my thoughts on some brick details, but I'll open it up to the B
to jump in. >> Go ahead, Carl. >> Sure. All right. Um, I guess since um, we got to be quick and because there's going to be more discussion between you guys and the neighborhood hopefully and this is a preliminary discussion, I'm going to focus on the some of the some of the things I think are working on
this. Um I think your uh the West Main Street facade is much more successful than you had before. Um the massing of it, the way you've broken it down into kind of three or three and a half large chunks versus some of the other projects have been a repetitive system of breaking down and it it ends up being just a big long building. I think your
massing breaks it down nicely into recognizable pieces. I guess that it seems to work out better. Um the um uh you know the brick base is great. Um the material palette um I I'm I'm
fiberment I still always am leerary of. Um I worry about um it doesn't age well. It mildews. Um I don't know if you guys are using the James Hardy stuff or if you're going to find some other type of fiber cement with a better finish on it. Something that might last a little longer and age a little bit better would
be much preferable. Um especially since it seems like everything facing West Haven is going to be this fiber cement material. Um, in terms of other massing, um, I I do appreciate the fact that on the back it's not a flat wall. It is
there's insets. There's, you know, um, it's broken down quite a bit and then it steps back. So moves like that are helping. Um, you have trees back there on the site plan that appear to just be small shrubs and little tiny trees if according to the label. I don't know
what type of utilities you have back there, but if there's a way to get some larger trees, I think that will help with any sort of provide some additional buffer between your building and the neighborhood. Um the um your renderings show a lot of depth in the um well, you mentioned you call it a faux brick
veneer, so I'm assuming it's thin brick. Um there's a lot of depth going on. Are we actually going to get that depth or is this just kind of pretty pictures that we're looking at? So, it would be great if you guys could provide that if with if with if what you end up with looks like the renderings. I think that'd be very successful. Um,
obviously you need to screen the parking lot lights. I think you're aware of that. Um, I really appreciate the alignment. I I don't know. It looks like West Haven's plan changed their alignment of their walkway. Um, however that coordination was happening. I do appreciate how that works out. seems
like it could potentially become a very good link between West Haven, West Main, and Tenth and Page. You know, tying all three together. I'm not sure how West Haven feels about having Tenth and Page using that walkway to get to West Main Street, but it does feel like it integrates it more. You like it? It
seems to be working very well in plan. Um, no vinyl windows or convince us that they're good, but I think it's going to be a really steep road. And, uh, rooftop screening is required by zoning. Um, so I saw your note on your roof plan. You do need to provide something. So come up
with something. Um, that's it. >> Thank you, Carl. >> Tried to be quick. >> You're great. >> Ron, you got any any thoughts, feelings? >> Um, largely I I think it's a a much improved
design uh as well. much what Carl has said I would agree with. Uh I appreciate the fact they've reduced the height and that they're trying to respond to the community concerns about that. Uh to the extent that we're supposed to consider whether it fits in its context, the fact
of the matter is it's on West Main Street and West Main Street already is designated for buildings of this size or larger. And I think that it fits the context and that we should take that definitely into consideration. There are not any particular concerns with regard
to uh I believe one at one point we were supposed to maintain Charlottesville's automotive heritage because there used to be a lot of garages along that street. Uh I think that this will actually fit in that context and um in
agreement with the city council's uh ruling, I actually think that ultimately more housing means uh lower uh more more housing leads to uh lower prices for other people's housing. Um if you restrict the amount of housing, then
there's nothing to do but go up or move to Green County. And that's not what we want people to do. We want people to stay here in town anyway. Those are my thoughts on the building. >> Great. Thank you, Ron. Sherry, >> I have no further thoughts other than what's been expressed so far.
>> Okay, David. >> Um, >> come up to Mike. Oh, yeah. Thanks. So, um, I want to just second what everybody's said so far. I think, um, the, um, design's been improved significantly, um, just from a massing
standpoint, from the different perspectives that you showed. Um the I think there's um a much you know um much more attention has been paid to how to activate the street and um and so um you
know certainly encouraged that um you know just after our our one meeting um that those that you know those um comments have been heard and and responded to in some way shape or form. Um I'm really interested in the memory
walk. Um um and um I think it's a a big opportunity. Um obviously, you know, there's been a lot of communication about it tonight. Um if we had the opportunity to ask questions, I'd be interested in hearing what the process of community engagement is um moving
forward. um because from your you know what you've communicated and what you've expressed that that's a um serious interest um um which everybody I think should um be encouraged by um and um I'm just you know I I think that there was
an improvement from the previous plans um the the sort of straight connection out to the the main street um you know I I probably share some of the concerns however with with number of the people's comments and that you you know, is this going to feel too much like a canyon?
You know, where is the memory in in this walk? And um and I think that could come, you know, with a very substantial um conversation that your um your group is suggesting. And I think that's a um that's
a very positive place to be here in the beginning. You know, a lot of a lot of us haven't seen any of these plans, but this is a preliminary meeting. Um, so, um, I hope that the, um, you know, the fact that we're having a preliminary meeting and everybody can hear what's
going on, um, will be a good springboard for future, um, conversations and ability to make this better. Um, the other things I want to say is that I I tend to agree with um
um, Carl on the materiality, no vinyl windows. Um, this is a big building and I I also agree with the cement board. I mean, I always think of cement board as being, you know, kind of appropriate for two, three, maybe fourtory buildings, but this is a big building and, you
know, our, if you look at the history of our civic um, um, architecture, you get to a big building, let's be proud of it and try to, you know, um, use substantial materials that aren't going to age in 20 years. Um, and then as far
as the height goes, I tend to, um, agree with Ron and that, you know, Main Street is if there's a place to, you know, build density that that's an obvious place to do it. Um, you know, um, and, um, you know, we may differ as we move
back, um, certain blocks, but, um, that that's a very obvious corridor and the, um, comparison to the scale of what's been going there um, is similar. So it's hard for us as a as a group that's comparing you know scales of building
cond you know basically um given to us by the by the city zoning um to say that this is out of scale. On the other hand um we've also heard you know concerns of darkness and you know what what the height um creates and um you know probably the biggest thing is the lack
of sun in the surrounding neighborhood. So I would like to really see some intensive sun studies and solar studies. Not only um how these different um um heights and masses are affecting what's happening behind it, but what's how it
is also affecting the potential um location and the size of the of the walk and the access for the for the residents. >> Um sun study was on the top of my list too. I think sharing that with the residents um would be really beneficial
to help people understand how uh shadows will move across the site. Um um I think I've also agree that I commend you to that you've brought down the height of the building significantly um and the design is better. So I think
that is great to see. Um, just looking at your plan, I'm I'm noting you've you've given yourself a really big challenge and that you're there is vehicular movement around four sides of your building and pedestrian movement around four sides of your building. And I
wonder if um I wonder if we if you had the ability and I don't know you know the details and particulars of your site plan. Um but if if you were to shift the I guess I guess well let me get sorry start over. Um this comes down to the me
memory walk u and the kind of doubling of pedestrians and vehicular movement on that space feels a little bit inappropriate or like difficult. Is it possible to shift vehicular to the east side of the building? >> So great question. Yeah
>> and one of the reasons why the memory walk is on the other side to begin with. There's a lot of topo. There's about six feet of grade change as you go towards the bridge and you can't city staff won't allow another curb cut right there at the bridge. So you can't enter
vehicles on that side. So, part of the reasons why we really struggled coming back here, why it took so long is because I knew one, I didn't want to present that to the community. >> But once theirs had to move over, like if you want it aligned, there's nowhere
else for cars to get into the building. >> So, it's kind of an impossible design challenge. I'm with you. I'm with the community. I don't want cars right there. and your city staff can tell you we already had a call with them to try to figure out the logistics of how to
make this work the minute we saw West Haven's plan with it relocated over there. It's it's a design challenge, but and vehicles only enter on that one side. They don't traverse all the way around. >> The driveway is for a um access for the
cell tower that has to remain there. So, it's not on a daily basis. >> I see. Okay. Um, in that I understand that design challenge. That's difficult. Difficult for sure. I wonder if um
>> maybe just to consider is there a way to expand the memory walk to the front of the building as well? Like >> that's what the plaza is meant to be. Okay. So I intentionally, right or wrong, did not put any markers or anything in those renderings because if
you do, not the right marker. If you don't, it suggests that it's not public space. But on the record, my intent is the whole reason for setting that back is to give prominence to the walkway so that you can also increase the prominence of the jewelry bridge sign
that's there as as well because right now it's just a small plaque. So my intent is working with the community so that we can get that to an appropriate scale within the plaza that we're creating. >> I see. Um >> I think that would be great to see a
sort of expan expanded memory walk that's not just about an access but something that wraps and extends and connects the bridge. I think that's a great >> I just don't want to say what it looks like and that's not evading. that's trying to be open to your feedback and
the community's feedback >> and what it needs to look like. >> I see. Um maybe when we see it next time there could be a diagram showing sort of the extent of that sort of future designed community. Um >> I think we could make meaningful progress. Um the community has been very
open. >> Um so I will get them the drawings. um and we can have a little bit of a working session to at least identify areas and concepts for the time we come back. >> And I think there there you know I think
there also just to talk speak to the community about the kind of eightstory building chasm or some I think a space like that could be very dramatic and interesting and beautiful if it's designed well. Um, so I I'm I'm open to
and excited to see what you all come back with. >> And it there's actually I don't think we've really talked about it, but there's a really interesting space that's created between the standard R building and the two West Haven buildings that's meant to be a gathering space. It's really open. It's right
outside of my understanding of the community center. I could be wrong. Or the women's health center. Um, but the idea is dedicating that space as a stopping point, not just the end, but as a stopping point and a moment of visual interest from that widened sidewalk
connection across Maine as well. I think Muhammad mentioned that was slightly off to the right. That's because there's already a curb cut there for to get to standard. My goal is to widen that about 50 ft so that even as cars are coming in, you still have a striped um
pedestrian lane, hopefully signalized, hopefully raised. We've got to work through fire with that. But that's the next step after this, assuming that everybody's on board with those concepts. Let's go figure out if we can make them reality. >> Okay. I will say I'm I'm a little
concerned about the sort of trash door, utility door, garage door, you know, that sort of that facade is a little concerning. Yeah, >> we'll need to work on that. >> Um into just a little bit of nitty-gritty stuff. I'm sorry I'm taking so long, folks. Uh the the window
details um look a little flat. If you could recess the windows, you know, a few inches, I think we've required on other projects. Right now it appears that the windows and the fiber cement are sort of co-planer. We generally like to see that sort of a
little bit more relief there. >> I think that's something we can look at. But one clarifying question just as I think about everything together. You know I' I've heard the depth conversation. I agree with that. Um I've heard the vinyl window. >> I've heard the hardy. Um, all of these
are things that are absolutely contributing to the viability of the project. Um, so I would just ask if we could consider everything when we come back. Of course, everybody give comments now. We welcome them. If we could consider everything as a whole um like
specifically on the the vinyl windows, is that just on the the main street facade? Is that on West Haven's facade or is that absolutely a deal breaker to go around the whole building? Same thing on the fiberment. I would just ask that would you try to think about the entire
project inclusive of what I'm hoping you'll hear in terms of community benefits agreement in June um in terms of financial viability of the project. Does that make sense? >> I can't I can't guarantee that. >> I understand.
And that's all I've got. Next, >> I'm lucky I get to go last. I'm not an architect. I appreciate your taking the effort to meet with the community and work that way. I appreciate the reduction in the height and the
setbacks. I think that's all great. I really commend my other bar members for their thoughtful and appropriate comments. And I would like to second it and hope that you can come back and work with your community and come back with
something that the community and you are happy with and that we can work as a bar to get you a successful project. >> Thank you. >> All righty. Thank you guys for your time and your presentation. Thank everybody
for coming out tonight. Thank you all so much for um actively participating in this project review or or preliminary discussion, excuse me. >> All right, Mr. Chair. I I you know, hang on, Mohamd Britney. I I just want to make sure I'm cuz these come the questions come back to me.
>> Okay. >> So, I want to be really clear. Um the memory walk is a a community project that they'll be working on that I don't for I don't you wish to see
where they are establishing an area that will be uh for that but they can't I I told them not to plan to bring back a design that's not what we'll be is that understood >> okay okay I just want to make sure we're clear on that
>> so water studio couldn't prepare it. >> Well, they it's a communitydriven design and they haven't >> Well, no, I I understand. >> What is the What is the timeline? >> I don't know. >> Okay. >> I don't know. I mean, it's I think it's all a function of >> that they wouldn't bring it back for
next week. >> Well, there's no way. >> We don't know. >> Sorry. >> Yeah. I'm sorry. They're not going to have a project. I just want to make sure this thing's it's it's it's when it comes back and if they turn something around and want us
to review something in June and you all aren't asking them for the design of the memorial wall can you you know so cuz I'm advising them >> to that that is a process of which they're going to go through with the
community. >> Yeah. So I mean ultimately the >> it's not coming back as a design how can we separate the memory walk out from the building. I want to make sure I understand that before they leave tonight. >> I think they could define an area in plan and in elevation
um on the building where that will take place >> and plan though, won't it? >> That's a this is where >> exterior >> when you talk about things that you you go and engage with the community, you know, and say we're going to design, let's take a park, let's take
Court Square Park. Uh there's a someday it'll happen but there will be a robust community input of the design of that park. It would be strange to oh the B would say no we don't like the what the community's come up with the design of that park. So there's a
>> good point. >> So there's a so I that's why I'm trying to to the benefit of the community and the benefit of the applicant I mean manage some expectations here. uh that the design that will come to you, for example, they're talking with the city
manager's office about uh somehow shifting the crossing in West Maine and and doing some things there. That that's not in our purview. And I I said leave that out because I don't want you all uh June and July when you're looking at a
design to be um asked to referee um >> no their relationship with the neighborhood on on a on a a promised design for a for a memorial space. that that's what I'm trying to tease apart here because I'm and then I also and I
know you all had said only so many minutes on this tonight but I think because of what I have to do with this next I want to really clearly understand you all um the I did not hear from I heard appreciation
for the height I did not hear a request to lower the building further >> and okay and um I just wanted to make sure I'm clear on that and materiality I agree and I shared that with them about you know the concern about you know vinyl windows but prove it don't you
know and um uh Carl some of the wall section questions you've raised uh >> the solar study >> solar study sh sun sh sun sh sun sh sun sh sun sh sun sh sun sh sun sh sun sh sun sh sun sh sun sh sun sh sun sh sun sh sun sh sun sh sun sh sun sh sun sh and shade study and that's actually something I think we should request to see more often yes um and um
>> all right good I have a question um the well my last question with um the applicants seemed to suggest that the like entire landscape was fair game for the memory walk so >> I don't know
>> more or less like the front side and back of the building >> it's it's possible >> so are we like not reviewing landscape at that point >> landscaping I mean they can't come in and just say it can't be white on the map and say something will happen here
in the future it must be a complete building. Um, so it if it's a if it's a walkway with some plantings along it and they and it's a driveway that meets our guidelines for a paved surface, then that may well be appropriate and, you
know, then it's on them to then fill in that space with additional things for the memory walk. But >> like the content of the memory walk isn't under our purview, per se. I'm trying to keep it I'm trying to at least >> an exterior. >> Yeah, but signs and markers and things.
>> Oh, no. Not wave funding, but Oh, wave funding is under >> Nothing would stop them from having a placeholder design that they revise by COA if they have to, right? >> They could. >> I mean, they they'll have to clearly mark on the drawing so the public doesn't get upset that this is a
placeholder to be reviewed. But we do need to approve something in case >> you need to approve >> that review never happens. We want to make sure something goes in that's okay for a couple years. >> It's comp I would much rather it be a >> you know this thing's got paved surface. It's got some bushes. It's got some
sight lighting. It's got a bench or two and we don't talk about a memorial walk because you all are then if you say oh it's a placeholder a COA has approved it. So you you you can't say well this this design is going to come back and
change. No. If they come in with a conceptual design and you approve it as the COA, then they by every right can construct that. So I'd rather this memory walk, whatever is presented be the minimum that it needs to be to to to complete the drawing to complete our
review of it and then embellishment of it at a later date. We can figure out how we treat it later. But but it would allow them to continue to move forward with their project. >> I thought that's what Carl just said. No, Carl just I think that's what I was >> Yeah, I think I think you I think he actually said exactly what you're
describing. He used the word placeholder, which you did not, but the concept I think was very similar in your comments, >> right? If it's a placeholder and says this design is a placeholder, then that design >> Well, I mean, it's No, it needs to be something that if if they never finish
the communication with the neighborhood and it gets built, it needs to be okay. I don't want to end up with like >> so I don't want to end up with a grass lot that we have next to the uh the Doyle right now >> because I'm I'm just very concerned and I know again you guys want to go home
>> but another applicant but these are the situation that we have to deal with and then I have to figure out how to come back and communicate with you all. So we're doing that tonight. >> That's fine. >> Are you expecting them to come back with another pre-application? >> No. And and I want to
>> when they come back it will be for COA. >> Right. I suspect so. That's my expectation and we'll see how they But I want to make sure that you all, the Board of Architectural Review, are not putting yourselves in a position where this community is counting on you to
create this memorial walk, to enforce this memorial walk, and and you heard reference tonight to this community benefits agreement. I don't I I know about it, but it's not under my purview or yours. I don't >> I know you didn't. We understand the community whatever benefits agreement is
not has nothing to do with this application. >> Thank you. That's all I wanted to make clear on. >> We we are bright enough to know that >> and I mean really I know you are. >> I mean Jeeoff we are we know what our I think everybody on this board knows what they're understand. Everyone understands because we just went with a large scale
project where there was a lot of neighborhood input. It went to city council on appeal and you all uh staying in the BA. I'm trying to keep you all and maybe I'm being >> we are staying in our lane.
>> I'm trying to respond to all that when the easy answer is for them to bring us a design that meets our guidelines that we can approve. >> Correct. >> If they want to amend it with whatever the memory looks like later is not ended >> and if it the design changes they got to bring it back to us. But what I heard
tonight >> was I want to hear what the process is for your memory walk. I want I don't care about that. >> We didn't say that. The community cares about their process. That's not on us. >> I'll read the notes. >> You mean we said it?
>> David. David said it. Sorry. >> Okay. So, it was said >> that doesn't mean all of us. >> He's interested in it and that's fine. Doesn't impact our >> I don't know if I said that. You got I guess you have to go back. My intention >> say something like that.
>> My intention was I'm just interested in seeing what comes back to us. This is a pre-application meeting, right? There's no decisions being made. The applicant um um made the statement that their their intention is to go work with the community. So it I'm looking forward to
seeing what the design is. That's all I said. If they came back and said that they definitely wanted the vinyl windows and it's a COA and we say no, >> are we going to deny the whole application? >> So that can be condition of our that
that could be a condition of our COA is that we're approving it without the vinyl windows like we can alter that. Um, >> yeah, just it's the content of their application and I would make sure it's like we're
that was the goal and I think you 99% there. It's just the thing about the memory walk has me a little I just want to make sure that we're and I think the conversation I feel better about it. We'll see what happens when an application comes back. I think
you all just my recommendation is that you let's be really careful that we separate these things that are going to be going on with the community that the applicant is going to do and then what you all will be looking at as far as the
design uh that's reviewable for a COA. That's all. I'm not trying to make your lives difficult. I just trying to avoid a little bit of what we went through where we had four meetings on a project on Seventh
Street and ultimately I I you know ended up denying that. So if this is the second meeting we've had on that. Um we had the opportunity tonight to say if we wished if you all wished sorry this
thing's just not going to fly. I think there's I think there's two different scenarios. The project we just had reviewed and and overturned by city council was directly impacting >> small individually protected properties. I think Mr. Bailey put it right in
saying that West Main is designated for buildings this size and this building fits within the context of the West Main Historic District. So, I haven't heard anything tonight to suggest that anybody has intentions on denying this application when it comes before us due
to the size of the building. I've heard a lot of people say they appreciated the uh applicant reducing the size of the building from what we saw last August. I'll echo that again. Thank you guys. I think you did a nice job in reducing the size of the building. Um I think that
they need to bring something to us. the the the I'm just going to call it the walkway between West Main and West Haven >> needs to be compatible and acceptable to our guidelines and that's it. If it gets
further developed as a memory walk then >> thank you. >> It may need to come back to us but you know we'll see when that happens. I think it needs something needs to come to us that we can approve >> right. >> Yeah it's up to them. I mean, I think we
should also like need we need to review it as a a walkway like, you know, people are walking through this. It needs to be well lit and the materials need to be appropriate and it's it needs to accommodate people and vehicles. It's tricky. >> Exactly. >> That's what it's doing. It needs to be
what what they bring back needs to be something that >> that we could approve that if that's all they built that we would, you know, >> That's correct. >> put our Yes, that was my point. Thank you, Kate. Um Frank, I'm sorry we're done with comments, but when this comes back for the COA, you'll have a chance
to speak at that time. >> That's why the point was the space allotted for the walk that was brought up by you. >> Yeah, it'll come back. So, um All right. Any more last thoughts? I think we're good.
>> I'd like to move along. Um thank you everybody. Appreciate I know this took a lot of time for people to pull together, so thank you all. Um, does anyone need a break? >> No. >> Okay. Um, we'll move on to our
next agenda item, which is preliminary discussion for 528 and 526 Valley Road. Um, all right. I'll fly through this real quick to to get you teed up on this. You looked at it. Um, >> yeah, >> back in February, it was a conversation
about 528, which is the brick house uh here at the the I call it the lower end of where Valley Road curves. Uh, and there we looked at two building, sorry, we looked at three buildings that were proposed on that lot. Um, this change
now u incorporates and you all only com commented on those. Those three buildings are now two. It's still the building in front of uh and to the west of the historic house and to the rear of it. Uh and what we're also now looking
at as as part of just this discussion piece is a proposed building at the rear of 526 uh Valley Road. Now, oddly enough, that's still considered contributing, although it was I think somewhat been uh
>> sorry, hold on, guys. worked on a bit uh at 526, but uh >> and we're we're bringing this to you as >> just for one conversation, but my intent and it it it doesn't necessarily affect
where you are going, but I just want to be clear, it's two building or it's two projects. It's it's two separate parcels. uh if for example you all decided you love what's behind 526 uh at a later date but 528 just doesn't pass
muster well you can deny that COA and approve a COA for 526 uh so by separating them out at a later date keeps things a little simpler for us but a and you know you are welcome to look at this as a development uh you're
welcome to look at these individually and where staff is falling calling on uh with this one is that the uh and what is now so there were three buildings on 528 there's now two uh the third building is the one behind uh 526 so one two and
three uh >> they they're not proposing this is one project >> at this point in time you're just looking at this as uh does it fit on this historic district
>> it A I am and you may review it. All right. Like Ridge Street where we had those two town houses right next to each other. They were on one parcel. We looked at them as one project. They'll probably when it comes back to you be two separate parcels. Um it keeps things
simple. But for your comments today, do these buildings as proposed, are they appropriate in this historic district? And where we've kind of, you know, our evaluation relative to the guidelines
is, you know, the building behind 526, you know, it it it it's behind the building. It's it's somewhat subordinate to a an unusual building. the uh building number two which is to the rear of the
brick building at 528. Um I mean architecturally I I I don't love it but you know spatially mass-wise location it it it's subordinate if you will to the building at 528. It really comes down to
what's going on with building number one which you all spent a lot of time talking about uh at the last meeting. It is um it spatially it doesn't it it it it crowds out 528. It doesn't fit there.
I'm not saying a building can't go there, but it just does not uh follow uh what the recommendations are as far as the location of that building relative to this setting it back further so that the you have some continuity in that spacing from the street. And so that's
the primary issue we have with that. There are certainly some details and things that you all can I as you said you guys you know that your job you know the guidelines uh but that's where staff stands is I think that the the the positioning of building number one uh
really needs a lot of attention and then you know it's otherwise it's similar conversation to any other uh preapp what you certainly can give a uh your feelings about the space the design the building you offered some uh comments earlier but if there are any details s
or information about materiality, uh you can certainly request that. You're not necessarily making a decision tonight, but I think we we can offer some uh feedback again that provides the applicant how to get to a complete application. And with that, do you have
anything for me? >> Is your concern with the building number one? It's not my my my concern is that that does not meet uh the design guidelines relative to to the spacing and the setback. Um the the guidelines
are recommendations. You all can certainly um they're flexible, but for for me making a recommendation based on the guidelines that that building is just out of character uh with uh 528. And in my opinion, 528 is probably one of the the
one of the more interesting buildings on that stretch of of Valley Road. So I feel like it does per the guidelines encroach on that historic structure and it's out of character with the spacing on the street. >> Okay. >> Is isn't are are that's those are
opinions of staff. Are you trying to persuade us with your opinion? I'm not understanding where we are. >> Well, I'll I'll read from your guidelines. setbacks within 20% of the setback of a majority of the neighborhood dwellings.
The medium front setback, this is on that section of uh Valley Road, is approximately 33 feet, ranging between 14 ft and 64 feet. The recommended setback for a new building would be between 26 ft and 40 ft.
The building number one setback on 528 is approximately 14 ft. That's not my opinion. That's from the guidelines. spacing recommended from the guidelines within 20% of the average spacing between houses on the block. So looking
at these buildings on the block, the median spacing between buildings is 46 ft ranging from 13 ft to 100 ft. Uh building number one is approximately 20 ft from 528 uh valley road. So it's uh
it and it the range should be between 38 and 55 based on the BAR's guidelines. So it is a little bit too close based on the guidelines, not my opinion. Massing and footprint relate to the majority of the surrounding historic dwellings. The average footprint that's the first floor
area is approximately 926 feet. That's the average for buildings there in that section of Valley Road. They range between 558 square ft. This is all in the staff report. this 558 square feet to 1562 square feet. Uh the dwelling at
528 the existing dwelling is 1,132 square feet. Uh building number one and building number two are both approximately 1500 ft². So footprint it is uh in the range that the recommended within our design guidelines.
>> May I ask what the block what what is included in what is considered the block for your analysis? So if you look on page four of the staff report, I indicate I don't have in front of me >> the properties that I um evaluated be and it is the primarily that that uh I
can't I think it's like 10 or 12 houses that are that uh loop in valley road that loops up back towards the hospital. So those seem to be >> sort of the whole length of >> correct valley that >> that's not necessarily the sub area but it seemed to be most relevant to the evaluation. And then as far as height
and width, uh the guidelines say keep the height and width within a maximum of 200% or two times uh the prevailing height and again prevailing width of buildings. So the prevailing height in this section I looked at is one and a half stories. So 2 * 1 and a half is
three. Uh the buildings are all proposed at three stories. So it's within that recommendation in the guidelines. The width, the average width of buildings is approximately 36 feet. uh they range between 28 feet and 68 feet. So per the
guidelines 200% of that average of 36. Uh the maximum of width of a building should be 72 feet. Uh building one is 60 ft wide. Building two is 80 ft wide. So uh they are a little bit larger but
certainly building number one is within that range of the recommended maximum width per the design guidelines. So uh and then the characteristics in the building uh they're medium all right the styles I'm sorry mostly uh the majority
of them are Cape Cod or colonial revival cottage style uh uh nine of them are brick that's a a wide majority of the building that's the materiality of these so that's where the design guidelines fall and uh and yes in staff's opinion
the proposal for building number one is is not consistent with the design guidelines. >> All right. >> Thank you. >> Um the applicant, do y'all want to give a presentation? >> Thank you all for your patience tonight.
>> Hey everyone. Uh it's it's been a long night. Um so I'll keep this brief. Um we did not have the finalized uh site plan before we were doing these renderings. So I do want to clarify on building one, it is not parallel to the road. It's
caned back. So we did try and break down the massing from the initial application and create that um repetitive uh arched entry that's sort of respecting but not trying to repeat what's going on with
the existing building on 526. Um but that building that's looked at here, I think, um Julia has the updated plan. So, this is really hard to see, but the the parallel line is here. The road is
going here. So, it does step back a little bit, opening up to where um the existing building is. >> Would you also Yeah. Do you mind pass? >> Absolutely. Yeah. >> Also to speak a little bit about the setback on that road. There are a couple
of houses at least two if not three that are set substantially back and that's because they're across a bridge um from a stream to to get to the parcel. So I in my opinion they don't relate as strongly to what's going on here because
they are set so far back across that stream across a bridge. Um, so we are trying to set within the the uh zoning guidelines to keep that building set close to the street but open it up towards that existing
picture. >> And did you want to speak to the other buildings at all or? >> Yeah. Um, I mean we did uh revise our our aesthetic goals here. Um, our team looked at some of the, um, architectural
elements along the street. Again, trying to do an arch entry that, um, pays homage to the existing house without replicating it. Um, adding some shutters, some gables, really relating a little bit more to to some of those
elements that we we saw. And we pulled a color um from a couple of other houses up the street uh that I think I included in the package. >> All right. Well, is that all you have for it? Like a presentation? >> Yeah, I don't have a I don't have a
formal presentation. It's just a preliminary application. So, just trying to >> Yep, that's fine. Uh I guess just to respect our process. Are there any is there any public uh comment or question? >> Really? >> No one.
>> Britney, you're a member of the public. Um okay. So I think we can just go ahead and jump in then. Uh I agree. I do think um some of the architectural detailing that you've picked up on and
>> still floating around. >> Sorry. It's coming. Sorry. >> Um, >> okay. So, that's So, it'll be helpful for us to see that in your renderings >> how you've pushed this back against the >> Absolutely.
>> back line, which is something we talked about >> at the last meeting. >> Um, >> it'll be interesting to see what that impact is. I, you know, I wish the taller side could be on the plan left, but I don't know if you got the room for
it. Um, >> yeah, we really did play around a lot with the the footprint there and and really shoehorning. >> Yeah, but then the site plan you're showing here, I think I think if I recall, my comments in particular was to try and align it with that back parcel
line. Um, and I do like, you know, the addition of shutters and some more traditional building elements. I I I like I think it fits with the neighborhood. Um, it's a big improvement from what you showed us last time with sort of why is there a window straddling
floors and, you know, things like that. Um, so I appreciate that. Um, >> you know, I do think that that particular, >> uh, I guess 528 Valley Road, um, is, you know, a little architectural gem,
especially with that arcaded front. Um, 526, I think the damage has already been done on that property. So, um, not much to do there, but, uh, you know, I think it, you know, I think Jeff's identified that the the main, uh,
focus is building one and and how it impacts 528. Uh, so seeing the the new rendering with the adjusted site plan is going to be really helpful. >> Um, but open it up to everybody for
comments and questions. different. >> Sorry, I may have missed it. Why is the site plan different than this rendering? >> We just were behind. >> Okay. >> Apologies. I >> I didn't know if there had been a change
if this had been done and then you reversed it or where we were. Thank you. >> That way. So, here's >> I'll just say in general, you responded to a lot of our comments from the last time you were here, which I really
appreciate. Um, especially with regard to building one. Um, I hear what staff has said. I I um maybe other members have a comment. It sounds like staff would want us to completely disapprove that building. And
I didn't think that was the sentiment expressed by the majority of us last time. In fact, I don't remember anybody saying that they wanted the building to go away. Um, but you know, hearing staff's analysis that is important to us. Um, I I don't I don't find that it
encroaches on the historic building if it if the positioning is such is like the site plan. That's what we were encouraging you to do. um in the historic um is it 528? Sorry, late. 526.
>> That's 528. >> Thank you. 528. Um it's not got much set back from the street itself. I mean, and so and I know that's not that's not the it's not the yard stick by which we look, but um it it no longer looks like
it's sitting in its front yard, which it did the last time you were here. >> So, thank you for that. I have no objection to 526 and the detailing of the larger building of 528 is much improved over what we
saw. >> So, thank you. >> Thank you. >> And remind me, are these threestory buildings? >> They are. um if it's something to maybe just look at and as you're going preparing for your
uh COA just kind of curious on building one obviously adjusted on the site plan any thought to like stepping down just the the column that's right next to 528 maybe taking that down off floor I don't
know just trying to reduce kind of the overshadowing of the existing building might be worth worth a look. >> Okay. >> I'm not saying I'd follow my sword, per se, but just go through the exercise.
>> Can I make a comment, >> please? >> Um, so I I appreciate what you're showing on the site plan. Um, I do want to see it in 3D because I'm not sure I buy it yet. >> Oh, yeah. M >> um I
so the exterior decoration for lack of word a better word um it's better um I'm it still reads uh and I'm thinking more of building one because that is the probably I think the most important to us because it's up on the street. Um, to
me it still reads as one large building and I don't know if there's a way to make it look more like two large duplexes that are, you know, put together. Um, because the way that the colors are broken down, I you wouldn't it doesn't it's not
breaking down the massing. You're you've got multiple colors on there. You have, you know, multiple window types and um the, you know, you're messing around with the it's kind of a fake roof on the front. Um it it doesn't do anything to break the
massing down at all and make it look like less of one large building. Um so I don't know if there's a way to I mean I think the roof line playing with that might help a little more. Um as opposed to just what you've got there really is just a fake little piece that isn't doesn't mean anything. But if it did
actually hip back or something, maybe it that would help a little bit. Um there's kind of a large amount of um uh blank area. Um which I know is common on a residential house, but it feels
especially large on this. Um so I don't know if maybe it's just cuz it's such a big building with little windows that it something about the scale of it is is not reading residential. It's reading kind of like hotel that wants to look residential. I I don't mean that. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but it
it is you have a you have a very flat box and even though there's an L shape to it, all of these are they're very flat and you've just kind of played around with the facade a little bit. Um, and I I don't know if there's some way to add some more depth somehow. I know it's that's money, but it um I I don't
know. It it some way to break them down so they don't look like single buildings with different colors on them, but more like maybe the left side is all blue and the right side is all beige or I don't know, there's some some way to make it so it looks more like it's two buildings
that are put together or three. Um I don't know. Um I you know, it's it does need some extra detail. So, I understand the wanting to put the shutters on there, but um if you're going to use shutters, just make sure they um are sized so that they
would if they were too shut, they'd cover the windows um and not get, you know, the hollow plastic ones from Lowe's. Um not that you would, but just that I don't know what's coming up next. Um so, yeah, that's that's kind of
that's my rample through that. I mean, I'd love to see similar principles, as I've talked about, applied to building two and three as well. Um, but definitely building one is the one that I think I'm I'm most worried about. And yeah, as James said, if you can maybe you can cut down the
masting a little bit on on part of it, so it's, you know, one of it's two stories and three stories or something, maybe that would help. I don't know. I basically I understand the problem with building one or the possible problem with building one, but in general I'd want to say that the design
is a vast improvement over the one we saw in February, which was frankly a mess. But uh I, you know, depending on how again this might might look, I think it actually would fit in the neighborhood given the way it
is. So, uh, I just want to commend you for making the effort to do this, and I look forward to seeing the project and y'all responding to the more architecturally, uh, adept folks on the panel. >> Additional feedback. Jerry, jump in.
Yeah, I I I to me it looks still a little crowded and I don't know if you can take building one and maybe if it was just two stories I think that would do it but that of course takes a lot of
financial consideration in there. Um, and I I too would like to see that thing in a 3D rendering >> to have a better feel of how it could do. And if you can do something to make
it feel less crowded, less less a little less mass there. >> Okay. Um, I'd agree with you, Jerry. Um, I think the it's a little crowded feeling.
Um, I also agree with uh Mr. Schwarz and his um comments about the kind of decorative application for the kind of roof decorative roof on the front and it looks good in elevation. Well, I' I'd say, but once we get into 3D, it's sort
of it feels very applied and and um agree that if there's room to push and pull on the front facade a little bit, you know, foot here, foot there, six inches, you know, something to give us a little shadow line, I think that would
help a lot. Um, and agree. I agree. I think it would we'll have to see the site plan and the renderings matching. Um and then um the comments about the materiality. Um
what were we looking at the windows? Um can you remind me what the windows are again? >> So they're fiberglass double window. >> Fiberglass. >> I think we've approved fiberglass windows before, but That's that's all I have tonight.
Thanks. Um I I didn't sorry I didn't see it the last time so I I don't have much to compare it to but um I I agree with Jerry's comment and the I guess crowding um feels like a real issue to me just um
not only the the the front one on the on the street that everybody's referring to but even the back one the way that corner you can really see it on the site plan the way it like cuts into the >> um you know comes so close to the the the old house Mhm.
>> Um, and so like crowding and then I think like disjointedness is another thing. There's something and I know a lot of this has to do with the just the the you know the forms of the parcels and everything but there's just like I want like a some sort of a something
cons some kind of consistency with the you know the way the h the original the existing houses are laid out and and the way these um are are laid out some relationship you know and I think somebody had mentioned a a massing in on the on the front house you know maybe a
a massing that gets it a little bit more in line with the existing house would would help along with you know seeing the new orientation of it. Um, and then I don't know if well just I'm not I'm not trying to suggest anything,
but just using that as as an example. If if you were to find a, you know, a massing relationship, then how does that relate to the the the house or the structure behind that, you know, finding some kind of relationship there? Maybe finding a relationship with the way that
the um the houses lay out. Um >> yeah is is is yeah >> I think the massing is difficult trying to preserve the two existing houses um instead of
uh the developer raising those and and doing what what zoning has allowed back there. Um so I think that's what creates a lot of this disjointedness is trying to keep the existing houses and still get the density allowed by zoning. Can I
ask a question about that? >> Sure. >> Have y'all explored demoing 528? >> We talked about this last time. >> Did we? >> 526. >> The ugly one. >> Yeah. >> Sorry. >> I don't know that those uh financial calculations have been run by the
developer. But I will pose the question >> because I don't know. >> Are you guys using them for a bonus density? >> Not on that. Not on 526. Okay. >> Or not on either one. Yeah. Not on that on either one. >> I made that suggestion at the last
meeting if you remember towards the end of our comments. >> It's not a bad one to consider, you know, to sort of create a more consistent layout. Um >> especially, you know, if you were to pick one of those, the the the one obviously
>> a little bit of an odd duck. >> Yeah. >> And maybe you do a new L-shaped building at 526 if you demolish the front one. you you can turn >> and then and then in lie of that could you get rid of building number one entirely?
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. And that could become park space or something. You know >> you got a deeper lot too. I'm sure you've considered these things, but >> yeah, I would prefer like a I mean, just you know, it seems like looking at it from the guise of the guidelines, I
think um I can I can almost imagine a sort of a single um if if you clear the slate there and um and in other words, move that remove that one house, >> then that gives you maybe some room to work with to create something a singular
unit that is more appropriate in a Okay. And it's variations um than the than the spattering of you know the three houses together and you accomplish the same you know density and what you're trying the kind of numbers you're trying to bring to it.
>> Okay. >> What's the max height that you could go in the back building? >> What's the max height in the >> What could you go? >> Oh, >> I think three stories. >> Oh, it's at Okay. >> I think. Yeah.
>> One thing because it that it was just curious but thank you Mr. S for saying it's it would make sense to do that. Um couple thoughts on what you all said just while you're and I know more but one if they did shutters we would want them to be
operable even though they would not be operable they would have to have operable hardware they couldn't be bolted to the side which raises the the wonderful question of which way would we turn the um >> so you get to that but yes if we did if
you did shutters we would want them to have operable hardware even if they were still uh anchored in place. Uh I was would offer that >> on the other side of the railroad from here on Brandon Avenue, there were these really cool three and four story brick
apartments that you know look like that and UVA knocked them all down. But I mean if you somebody came in and proposed something like that, we'd be I mean there's a picture that Kate and I hung up in the wall outside of our office saying, "Oh, look here's here's this is the missing middle. Here's what
it is." So, uh it it it we have the models out there. Wish we uh could look at them today. Then I want to make sure that you all um with a project like this, we're also dealing with um meter boxes, the mechanical uh boxes, utility
boxes, uh even with the box themed mailboxes. So, there are site elements here that we often um miss. uh where are the mechanical units going to be and how will they be screened? Um and so we don't I don't want to lose sight of
that. Um and I'm saying you have to say you know show it here but um that's one of the things when you particularly uh some projects when you walk down past CNO road there's all those apartments. That's not under our purview, but you see there's like literally right in
front of the entrance are utility meters and and transformer boxes and mechanical units right there. So, um I think that needs to be some attention paid to that and and where those things are located. Um >> yeah, we'd love to have it, you know,
once you get your final design to have designation of those um where they're going to where they're going to reside >> because it does make a difference. And do you need a fire hydrant? >> No, we're using the existing across the
street. >> Okay. >> What's going on? >> I have one other comment. I'll just throw this out. And there um I'm not a design professional, so the architects on the board, but if you if Miss Richardson could go to that. Yeah. The
Ariel. So, it seems like building number one, the gabling, and I I don't know whether you did that, I'll call it a front to back gable to mimic the actual gabled windows on the historic house or just to divide up the volumes. But it
feels like that gable is fighting the other buildings. Like I really want for I I want for all of the buildings have a gabled roof side to side and I I maybe I have a fondness for like the old garden
style apartment complexes but there is a comfort and I mean it there's there would be a cohesiveness in having all of the R styles the same. Now, of course, nobody's going to look at the vantage point that we have, but I would say if
you end up having to retain building one and figuring out how it can be there, I wouldn't be and I I know this is opposed to what we said before, but I wouldn't be I wouldn't be troubled if you had one continuous end to end gable
and got rid of those got rid of the front to back gable. I feel like it's fighting with a historic structure and it does make it appear more prominent, you know, proud of that like peering over the historic structure where whereas an open gable on that side may
not seem to be fighting with it, but it just really I mean it just looks like looks like some garden style apartments. And I mean the the the both of the existing buildings have the same type of gabled roof. the other two ones in the back that you've designed, you know,
even though they have peaks, I would call them, still have that >> that style. Anyway, that's Well, actually 520 the new one on 526 does not. So, I'll withdraw that. Anyway, >> this is what building one used to look
like. >> Yes. Yeah. It was like a shed. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I don't know. I mean, there could be a comfort in the continuity. I don't I wouldn't want for all the buildings to look exactly alike or mimic each other or the new ones, you know,
faux historicism to reflect the old ones, but there it may just calm the conflict down by using a somewhat unified type of roof >> going going in the same direction on the buildings. Yeah,
>> that's just my observation. I'd be wrong. >> That's a good point. and maybe even also look at like just different roof slopes um to to sort of tie into um some of the precedents on the street. Those are very kind of shallow,
you know. Um maybe that's another another sort of tool you could use. There's a point you that you all raised in in the last discussion about this was to to to use as Miss Lewis is saying sort of the the
hip roof but with dormers to sort of uh you know rep >> to create Yeah. And she and she has so I'm I'm contradicting my earlier comments for sure. >> But like actual Yeah. dormers >> dormers on Yeah. >> instead of just a roof feature. I don't
know >> because that lowers the the bottom line of the roof and and and sort of speaks to the scale that we're also talking about. >> It does. >> How many parking spaces did you end up with there? >> Um, none are required.
>> Oh, >> none are required. >> There are no parking requirements. >> So So you could design it so they they could park in the front yard just like their neighbors do now. Yeah, currently they all do.
>> That is definitely that's not it has to >> Oh, that's none are required. >> None are required. >> Yeah. And we did I know we did explore dropping the roof um if possible, but these are townhouse units. They're not
garden style apartments, so it >> uh really restricted. And these are about as minimal size town houses as we can as we can get. So, it really impacted the the top floor. >> Actually, now that you mentioned the
parking, that's that's another thing that just has been sticking out to me, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. The fact that that's sort of the center of everything. It's just a big parking lot in the middle. And also just I don't know. Um, I feel like >> um there's a better way to kind of
disperse the parking to kind of make it more integrated with the rest of the the buildings and in the in the context. It's a challenge. >> Worked on a couple of different parking layouts at the beginning where it is because that's where the bulk of the
utility pipes are and so it's kind of not buildable area. Um, so we couldn't really like shift any of the units into that parking area >> and there are a lot of utilities on this site. So kind of yeah, one of the other
large constraints that we're dealing with. >> Yeah, like I said, they really shoehorn into these things. >> But yeah, noted it does look kind of funny. So we can think about maybe if there's some kind of soften that
we can look at a little more. Um, one thing I wanted to note before we um, go is just uh, like again it's a very challenging problem because you're keeping two very different looking buildings and then adding a third type. So you have this sort of by definition
of your problem. You're sort of have this mish mash of architectural styles. So I don't know if like the we talked about like demoing one of the buildings like if that could help like with the just cohesiveness of the pro you know
the project. I think that it's worth worth studying at least. >> Yeah I will pose the question. I will say this is developer driven so I'm not sure that financially that's >> a great uh way forward but I will I will
ask the question. The the idea is that the both of those houses would be rented out, right? >> They are. Yes, they're currently rented out by students. And so, Right. >> Yeah. >> And Jeff, question for you. Is this going to come back to us as another
preliminary discussion? >> I think that depends because there's a little bit of evolution occurring on your end as well. Um the fact that you've looked at it twice I I I I and this is something for a work session
one day but it's where we wanted to be we wanted to be careful with having continuous uh uh preliminary discussions on a large scale project like an eight-story building on West Main. Um, but I think something like
this in the interest of of us in in neighborhood development keeping things moving forward. I I I would really encourage them to to, you know, take what they've had and then let's I mean, if they've got some questions, they can float them to me and
I can ask you, but uh I would prefer the next time you see this unless unless something drastically changes. But I I I just worry we get into that um you know are we working towards a decision or are we just working towards redesigning? So
that's something I would talk with the chairs about but no I would prefer that the next time you see this as an application. >> Do you have any further questions for us? Uh, not right now, but I will definitely reach out um to Jeff if I if I have any
or if our developer comes up with any. >> Great. Thank you so much. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right. We've got a couple staff questions and discussion. I don't think any of these will take too long. So,
>> yeah, Kate had some things, >> you know, it it always makes perfect sense in rehearsal. Um but uh >> then you so go ahead. I mean they were
>> Yeah. So um there is a question >> actually Jeff do the first one because you this is your do one a sorry >> the rest are mine >> I'll talk really fast. Um, I've defined
one a. Um, >> well, I'll give it a stab since you're Okay. So, for in section five or I'm sorry, chapter 5 section guidelines about cafe spaces for unleashed cafe spaces or when when leased but not in
used for prolonged periods, all elements including but not limited to furniture, railings, planters should be removed from the public right of way. >> So, this is a bit of a heads up. Um, >> is that Sorry, just to clarify, that's how it's written now. >> Yes. >> Yes. And we're not asking for any
decision. Just just a little bit of a heads up that um there's some, for example, James, you and I talked about the the deck that was built out there. Uh uh they got a building permit to build it,
but they did not have at least cafe space. So that's something on internally where we have to say well wait you know you got a COA but by the code that governs cafe spaces you have to have a leased space and it was
like well no it's not the cafe space it's the deck for it and now we only have two of those that have that situation but we're we're going to be framing some questions as they come up about all right uh when the B has said because they'll say well all right let's
say that that cafe goes away does the B want that deck removed. I'm going to have that conversation. But the other one that's coming up is that there are businesses on the mall that have inquired about using those leased spaces
for almost a a private type of use. You know, oh, I I own this building. We have we have people in it. They would like to use that space. My response been, well, per the code, it has to be at least cafe space. And then what goes in that space
is is evaluated based on our design guidelines for cafes. But it does raise an interesting question of well if somebody has condominiums and they create a cafe and then that space becomes used more as a a public space
associated with that residence or that business. So Kate and I just see some things coming that are going to be questions that will So we've just kind of had it just put it on your radar. Uh or if you hear someone asking about, oh yeah, the condominium wants to use it as
their public space type of thing. Uh there's pros and cons to that, but um give it some thought. So that was one a that was like I said just an FYI and then Oh yeah, your work. >> Yes. So, I am part of the NDS team along
with um a zoning um counterpart who's working with economic development um Brenda Kelly, the downtown mall strategy manager on working through the existing COAs for all the cafes on the mall. Um there's no decision yet um or when um we
might actually start speaking with operators on their compatibility with the current guidelines as they were adopted in December of 2024 gosh 2025 whatever uh 2024 and um so I just wanted
to let you know that we are working with um everyone and about 90% um so far have been um very pleasant and it's been working well and so we have actually adopted new cafes where operators have left and new operators are in. Um so um
we're meeting with those people first. Um and so far everything's good. Everyone's been amanable to the changes and recommendations. So just wanted to provide that feedback for you. Um but it is working with economic development. So just know that NDS is not the primary lead. We're coordinating with other
divisions and departments across the city on that. Um, do you all want to discuss premeating discussions? Now, >> can I go back to 1A? Just I have a question. So, on the um construction that was done next to the old passa
restaurant, what's what's the status of that? Are they making them dissemble it? >> I call it sky bar. That's the sky bar. Whatever. >> No, it was pass was the last restaurant there. It was called Passiflor. Um it that that's one of those tasks what it
within our system where things go through and who's checking what and um a COA you all it's just a COA and it's uh and they had one there they did it uh a
COA had been approved for the prior deck. The question is, well, if it's not a leased cafe space, then how did it kind of get through the steps of a building permit without
>> Did it get through a building permit? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Because it was built on public property. >> Well, that's >> So, how do you how do you get Let us know. >> Yeah. You're getting us started. Um, >> what what's it I'm sorry. What's Did they not check who owned the downtown
mall? I mean, I'm I'm a little troubled. >> This was before Jeff. I mean, this was Mary Joy time. >> No, no, this is just recent. >> THIS IS DECK. >> TWO. YEAH. Two two months ago. >> Replacement deck. So, >> oh, replacing what was there though because they they had a deck for quite a while
>> and then they took it up and but somebody started building and I don't I there is no restaurant at least in that space. >> Replacing it and so it would be interesting. >> It would just be like me building a hut in the middle of the mall. >> Exactly. Exactly. So that's one of the things >> and somebody issued a building permit
for that. >> I'm Yes. >> So there's some there's some I don't remember reviewing it, but >> was that I don't I don't remember. We didn't review that. >> We didn't know. That's the whole thing. >> They had a COA. >> We walked down at the mall and looked at it. >> Yeah, I remember that. And they should
only >> They had gers around. They had a cafe space. >> They didn't. >> Well, I'm not talking about the previous thing. I'm talking about what they did more recently, >> right? I >> God man. >> So they have a COA. >> They
>> They got a building permit. >> Have a building permit. >> They have a COA. >> I even talk to you guys about it. >> What? They have a COA? >> They do. They had had a COA for that. I talked to you guys about it. We can go back and revisit this as much as you
want. I can't change the answer for you. They've constructed that on the mall. I don't know how they put it on the previous I don't know. They received a building permit and Kate and I can't determine how that happened. We will and it's something that at some point we want to have a conversation. >> Why are you getting mad at us? Have to
ask this question. I'm very >> I can't answer your question other than to tell you they have a COA and they constructed it. We would like to at some point have a conversation with you about things on the mall. If you want to quiz me on why they built it or how they built it, I'm trying to explain that to you.
>> But did but a COA has to be issued by you or us. had to see things on the mall. Cafe spaces are reviewed administratively and so and I had talked to you guys about them replacing that thing. We talked about it. There had been one there and I talked about that
cafes are reviewed administratively. So we treated it as such. Now the fact that it was constructed without a leased cafe space is a very good question and we are going to uh find out why. I don't have an answer for you
>> right now. I do not >> sorry I thought when after the last month's meeting or the meeting we went down and looked at it for the first time and I thought you were learning for the first time that it was constructed. So that's why I knew it was being confused. I didn't know it was not a leased space.
I did not know but there's no check in this and this is part of the process that we're working on. But what I'm saying is there's for example in our guidelines we say if a cafe face is not being used it's guidelines it's not uh uh you know there are ways around it but
one of the principles that we adopted was if things are not being used then those things are being removed and we're going to have to make a consideration of do we recommend that if that's if something like that is not in use as a as a leased space that that has to be removed. Uh, I said I'm just bringing it
to your attention tonight. I'm not offering you a decision, and I frankly wish I had scratched this from the agenda. So, I don't >> I'm sorry. I'm still I'm still really confused. >> I'm sure you are. And I And I apologize. And And we are not going to >> You're saying the COA was issued a while
ago and that's to the >> They have a COA that still stands. >> They applied for a building permit. Got it. >> The building permit was issued and it was constructed. I learned that there's no lease cafe space there. Uh but that's not my I don't review those. I don't
>> No, no, no. I'm not blaming you. I'm just trying to understand it because like >> right >> it's kind of outrageous that it happened at all. >> It very much and uh but I can't fix it tonight and I I don't have an answer. >> I'm not asking you to fix it tonight. I just I asked cuz we all we learned about
it. We went, some of us walked down, looked at it, and I thought, you know, surely by now the city's going to make whoever did that like the like the place on the corner that we discovered um that you know that weird elevated sidewalk on Elliewood um that somebody just
constructed overnight. Anyway, >> yeah. Okay. Exactly. And those are zoning violations and and what we can do is report them and we do not enforce. we can um and so that's that's very much yeah where we are on that. Okay. >> Uh we're trying to figure out how it
happened. It shouldn't have uh just like the plaque that showed up on the wall outside of the beer place that's never been finished. Got >> um >> the uh so so like Yeah. So, as we progress, as we wait into the pond of the mall, uh Kate will be giving you
have more information as as as we >> carefully and slowly uh uh interact with the uh the cafe operator, >> but otherwise it's going well. >> So, yeah. So on the premeating situation, we have been advised, no, we've not we've been directed that uh we
cannot meet >> um in the um neighborhood development conference room. We have to meet in the public place. >> Um >> but we're not required to meet at all. >> We're not required to meet at all, but it was an opportunity for us to feed
you. >> Sorry. >> Um >> we're not allowed to have food and drinks in here, even though we do this. Uh >> but members of the public had pizza to >> know and so we are exploring as the >> I'm not sitting through a five hour meeting without water.
>> Yeah. And the planning commission has done is or at least last week used the downstairs. >> No, we were here. I asked if we could use downstairs and they hadn't figured that out yet. >> Okay. Cuz I um so I said no pizza this
week. We'll have a meeting. I apologize. We're going to try and figure it out, but we have to uh a the I've been directed the bar cannot have if we're going to have a premeating unless well we cannot be meet more than two of us in a room unless the public can come and
sit in the meetings. >> I think we just start at 5:30, >> right? So we'll start at 5:30. What that means though is now we really need to be if you've got questions, if we've got something that we can solve, uh, get them to me or get them to the chair
because what I'd like to do is at least have the chairs show up and we can um, choreograph some things. Now, >> didn't we allow public in when we sat any other >> It's because it's locked. >> Yeah, the door locked physically >> secured. Oh, >> we've had a couple times where the
buzzer has not been picked up by staff members and that is not anyone's I get it. So, we can't leave it prompt. >> It's just a difficult space to access. Yes. Okay. >> So, so that them's the cards we've been
dealt. Um hopefully we'll have something >> I think um I think something that would that's you can't fix and it's okay but something that would help in terms of your second point of helping organize
questions or comments would be if the email reply all would work but it doesn't and so >> we can't we can't communicate ate as a group ahead of the meeting putting out there, hey guys, this is something I see
an issue with. Does anybody agree or disagree? And like but I mean is that also waiting into having the meeting? >> It's a little bit waiting into that but it's also so you can get around the email thing by actually typing in everyone's email address. >> I know it's Can I make a suggestion?
They can also be a collaborative spreadsheet in which is shared that people can access and that is a way to drop in questions and comments without doing it via email and that is how other boards and commissions also do shared work. >> Great idea.
>> Interesting. >> So where would we find this collaborative spreadsheet? >> I'm happy to make one for y'all. >> Is it Google Docs or what? >> It can be whatever one you want. It could be SharePoint. It could be Google >> Slack. I don't remember. >> I don't Okay. Why don't
>> Why don't we immediately start abandon the list serve or whatever one calls it and just use our emails? I mean, we all have >> Oh, just like type somebody to type out our emails, >> right? >> Well, I I just have it in a spreadsheet. I drag and copy and paste it when I want
to send you guys something. I don't feel like dealing with the BA thing. doesn't but isn't there something to be said about the BA email address is like a public email address >> they would still monitor that >> foya boil it is foya I love that one but
it's foyable but where it's where for some reason when you hit reply oh it won't work and >> it's a Google thing >> and sometimes I stuff in spam >> that's right >> so I just take now the risk is you then you guys copy you don't have to copy us
I I mean, if it keeps it simple, you you copy those nine email addresses and paste it, but your spam may still >> be copied on all communication. >> Yeah, you should. And but it it now there's 11 people on thereable. >> So, we might I I don't know enough about
how to fix that, >> but it is already because it's part of the list. >> Yeah, if we're discussing B stuff, >> we can put all of our own emails in there, but we should also include the B email just to make sure that it goes into the city system. >> And then Jeff gets copied and Kate gets copied. I'm guessing there are a number
of other staff members that are on there that we don't know about. >> It varies anymore. >> No, I mean honestly the preservation email is probably the >> I just just I just want to be really careful here because as soon as there is
a list serve and anybody has a Gmail account, it will more than likely not send. It will ping back. So it is a list serve issue with Gmails. >> Just weird. So is >> yes the problem is the list serve
compatibility with Gmail. So, >> but when so when I use my Gmail and I send something new to the BA, not a reply all, not a like it's a brand new email, it usually goes through. It might go into spam, but it goes through. It's the reply all when it breaks down.
>> But then that's how you don't maintain a conversation strain. >> Have to just put in the car copy everyone. >> I think I'll just see you all at 5:30 next month. I think we just do away with the pre meetings. But I guess that but that's
we're saying that we would do away if we have a more robust system of asking questions in advance instead of saying we'll come at 5 and then ask our questions. We wouldn't want to do away with the premeating. >> Isn't there public spa like some public
space that's easily accessible that we could find >> city space? Yeah, city space was city space, >> but city space was but city space was also there was like a block of wood in the door and so I don't know if that's truly secure andor unlocked. >> So we have communication staff. I mean
you guys are one of the city council planning commission BCA B. You're in the big four. >> We can't eat in here. >> And we have communication staff that's set up to broadcast you live on channel 10 from this room. Um, >> is there no reason to just have our
>> official BAR meeting start at 6:00 or excuse me, 5:30? What time does it start? It starts at 5:30. >> Like, we just meet here at 5:30, have a premeating, and then start the official meeting at 600. >> I I mean, I don't know. I guess >> rearranging the deck chairs. the the um
I I I think what I most be honest with you, you guys don't get paid and we you know arranged to start feeding you again. Uh and Kate's been feeding you. >> And um and um
>> wait a minute, but you did feed me tonight. I got two pockets of cheddar goldfish. >> I never eat junk food. This is awesome. There is there's no stipen but um so we we compensate with pizza. It's >> a goldfish tonight man. I never eat junk
food. >> Well Sher will tell you the B used to eat in Carl too. It's like a buffet sometimes when I first came like my sandwiches. >> There was Chinese. >> Oh no. We never had that.
>> Lasagna. There was all sorts of fun stuff. >> Salad bar. So >> co happened. It dropped from the city budget. They never put it back in. >> So, is the only problem the food here? Is that what it is? >> I think some >> like because it worked fine. >> I think the problem is that >> except for the food
>> someone determined that that door needs to be secured to protect staffers. I'm not saying right or wrong, >> but securing where people work and we know staffers work, you know, late hours and we're right on Market Street.
>> And we did have a guide camp in They did lock the door to Marshall Street because people were just coming in. >> Yeah. >> Which seems like it should happen if it's a public building, but people didn't like that, you know? Like I
remember when you walked in and Lisa was sitting right there. But anyway, >> well, if you go down the hallway, that office isn't there anymore, >> right? But it's now so secure that it's not a public space where we could meet. And that's the problem is we don't even have a work table conference room like
in this end of city hall where things are open. That's the shame of it is well what yeah even and even council chambers which does have a concret conference room is >> on the other side of a secure door. >> It's like this place is like a fortress.
So it in its simplest terms it to me it's like I'm bummed because I that was feeding you was part of compensating. Uh and I don't know I wouldn't care. I'd sit up here and chomp on pizza if uh I don't think we're on t live yet. We need
to answer that question. But it is it is it really that we is it as simple as we got to feed you guys and it helped you out? I don't mind saying yes because that's what I and if you sat in here and you know and Patrick guarded the pizza
bar for two pizzas and the the bottled water and we sat here >> we're comfortable with that. >> What does planning commission do now? >> We don't eat. >> If they want to watch us eat, they can watch us eat. >> Yeah. >> So that's what I'd like to push for but
um >> do they not want us eating in their room? sign says. >> Yeah, >> it does. >> Can I make a >> pie fights, things like that? >> We do one more month in here. Um, but or we assume that we're going to be in here, but maybe in the meantime, you
guys check and see if maybe the basement would be open for us. >> So, for the meeting or for the pre >> for the premeating. So, we we'll plan to >> do like >> we'll we'll have a premeating again and either we'll luck out and we'll have pizza in the basement or we'll be up
here and we'll be hungry. We'll find out in a month. >> Basement is where the housing that the hack meets that conference room BCA meets in there. >> Okay. >> Is that there's a level below y'all? >> Yeah. >> But I think we need to get permission
from a higher up. Okay. >> Would you mind sending a link to the DHR workshops? Uh is if there's a way to sign up for the ones in Blackburg, Herman, or Nor. >> Did we decide? We're We're doing the same thing next month. Same time.
>> Yes. >> Yeah. >> So 5:00 here. >> 5:30. >> Our staff our >> No, we haven't decided. >> Okay. We haven't decided. >> What? So what are we deciding? 5:30 here. No premeating. Is that the decision?
>> We're going to drive. >> I just want to know. >> No, I do too. >> I think the premeating is useful. >> Yeah. >> Let's give it one more month and see if it works. and maybe next month >> if we could go to the >> basement meeting next month. >> Yeah. C Kate has had a great way of
presenting it up the ladder and that is that it's your you all as a group are come together pretty well. That's your communion time. You you your your fellowship time, you know, you're whereas others just
show up here and you know it's game time. I I I think there's something valuable in that interaction and even if it's sitting up there, but that 20 30 minutes of interaction prior to the the opening gavl, Kate and I both
agree that really valuable to you all as a a working group and and you are a collaborative group different than other uh you know appointed bodies. So I I I want to work to figure out a way to do it. But I guess I would say yes to your question,
assume we're here at 5:30, but I'm hoping I can >> 5 5:30 >> and I'm hoping I can send you a message that says, "Hey everybody, uh, good news." And then >> five downstairs maybe. >> Yeah. Something like that. Or we're eating in here and you know, damn the torpedoes. As far as the uh training
sessions go, thing is that in order for the for your year of training, you have to accomplish it before the end of September. So, there's only one in there that fits and I'm not, it may not be what you want to do. It's also an all
day thing. I will say this, they're really interesting. I've been to several of them. Uh, it's really interesting because you are also in these meetings with other bars. You have access to DHR staff, which you know, you guys rarely meet. Um, it it's a good day. Uh, and I
think what was the one we were talking about? Rona, where's where were the H. Hearnden. Um, so >> but we can also do the one where we watch the video >> and well and the other part is that I think what I would like to do is just say we're going to have an hour or we're
going to have two half hours when we we knock it out and uh uh and we like I said we went to this thing today on Robert's rules. Very interesting. we have the city and the city attorney can come in and do something. But um if you I I'm just saying if you are interested
in doing them out outside of your hour requirement, they are very interesting and and and you you learn a lot and you meet folks, but um I think we were looking at the Hearnden one even though that's after >> but we can talk about it. Um
>> so when are the two half hours? We can pick pick pick a bar meeting and we'll some >> Yeah, we have to, you know, we're going to we just want to make sure it happens before September 30th so I'm not running around. >> Well, we can do February >> training. >> You can, but then I have to chase you
down every year. >> I You never chase me down. You ask me once. >> You use you as a general term. Um, but >> I'm the one who's supposed to have continuing. He chases me down every year. >> All right. I'm terrible. There being no further business >> before the bar,
>> you have to make a motion. You have to make a motion. >> I move that we adjourn. >> Is that the first motion that Jerry's ever made? >> You think so? I don't think so. >> I think you. >> All right. All in favor? >> I I oppose.
>> Jeeoff, can you resend that link to those videos?