Your name tag's right here. So she can't hit me or something. That's why I'm in between. Keep us separated. Just the top part or the whole thing? I would like you to say the whole. When do you want me to say it? At the very beginning? Sure. Yes. I can do that. Yep. Alright. Sorry for being through five minutes late everybody, but, welcome to this regular monthly meeting in the Charlottesville Board of Architecture Review. Staff will introduce each item followed by the applicant's presentation, which should not exceed ten minutes. Chair will then ask for questions from the public followed by questions from the BAR. After questions are closed, the chair will ask for comments from the public.
For each application, members of the public are each allowed three minutes to ask questions and three minutes to offer comments. Speaker shall identify themselves and provide their address. Please come up to the podium to do so. Comments should be limited to the BAR's purview. That is regarding only the exterior aspects of a project following the BAR's discussion prior to taking action. The applicant will have up to three minutes to respond. We had a pre meeting discussion in the NDS Conference Room. So had to ask to read this little note. Please note sorry. I've got a message from our vice chair.
The request for 159 Madison Lane is incorrectly incorrectly listed as a deferred item. It is technically a new item. Not a not a big deal. Oh, there we go. It's actually on this updated, but that's more for the public. Also, the conclusion of the formal business and following action on item number two on the agenda, BAR will adjourn to the NDS conference room just down the hall for an informal work session regarding the planned updating of the design guidelines and the review
processes for ADC districts, IPPs, and historic conservation districts. No formal actions will be taken. Meeting is meeting is open to the public and will still be aired on the live feed. However, seating is limited and no public comment will be taken. So y'all are welcome to walk down the hall and join us if you'd like. Alright. First, we have election of BAR chair and vice chair. That's a fire part bylaws. We are supposed to do that for the following year in at the November meeting. So anybody feel like wanting to be chair?
Or I'm happy to do it again if you'd like. Discussed before, like, before this moment? I mean, the current I don't know. Maybe maybe somebody has discussed it, but I haven't discussed it. We we haven't discussed it as a board. We haven't. And if you're we're just assuming that the current people are going to continue, then mister Timmerman would how we wanna I texted so I texted him and asked him that question. K. I hope you feel better. Do you want to be vice chair? And he said yes. I said, do you wanna be vice chair again or chair?
He said, I am. Just returned, but pretty worn out from the last few days. Sure. I'll do vice chair. Is he on pain meds? I I don't know that. Right. Is he under the influence? Lawyer. Is that why you got his Lawyer Lewis? I don't know. Are you playing a coup? No. Are you and are you willing to continue? I think, so this will be my coming up on my seventh year, I think I'd be willing to do it this coming year. I do feel like it makes sense if I stay on for another year after that to maybe step back and hand off the reins instead of taking it all
the way to the my end of term, if that makes sense, just for good overlap. But I'd be willing to. So unless anybody else really wants to. No. I therefore move that we continue with the current chair and vice chair as proper motion, we're nominating, mister Zeimer for for chair and mister Zimmerman as vice chair.
Timmerman. Timmerman. Timmerman. I'm sorry. Yes. That's correct. I was it was a mash up up there. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Alright. Thank you. Yes. Should I send him a congratulatory text? Or a Yeah. Alright. So next agenda item is, matters from the public not on the agenda or on the consent agenda. The consent agenda is 1314 Rugby Road replacing a pool pavilion. Anybody had a comment on that? Any other any matters from the public in the room, on the Zoom?
Patrick? No. Any members of the public who wish to speak remotely, please raise your hand. We're good. Okeydoke. Alright. Consent agenda. We don't have the October minutes ready for review yet. They should be ready by next meeting. And then as I mentioned, it's a COA application for 1314 Rugby Road. That was sent to us as a in our packet, essentially replacing the pool pavilion that's the current is a pergola. The new one is a little roof pavilion. Any discussion on the consent agenda? I move to approve it.
Second. Alright. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Alright. Consent agenda carries. Thank you. Alright. New item is COA application for 159 Madison Lane. And I guess I will ask staff to give us a introduction. Yeah. This is, and it's something you looked at, jeez, two years ago. Time flies. But, this is for 159 Madison Lane. It's listed in within the corner ADC district.
It's one of the fraternities, or it is a fraternity. It's at the, North End Of Madison Bowl. It was designed, by UVA, a school professor professor Stanislav Mikalski, and built in 1928. And what they're here, they were previously, we had discussed, and you all had approved the three openings there on the the face of the porch, and you would approve
the infill with brick. But I I knew that they were also looking at some significant, water infiltration issues, particularly associated with the deck under the portico and the stairs on either side. So, a lot of this falls under maintenance and repair. And I mean, I honestly would have otherwise, might not even have reviewed it with you all or may put our consent agenda. But I did just wanna make sure you gotta look at, particularly with the stairs. They'll be restoring them or or, I'm sure what putting the the treads back the
way they had originally been. So I just wanted to make sure no one had any questions or issues with this, but staff does recommend approval. And I think I had, and I had listed some recommended, conditions that you can you can either read or you can refer to, their recommendations under discussion in on page two of the stack.
But did you have any questions for me? I know the folks are here that available. Alright. Would the applicant like to present anything or or just here for q and a? It's all there. It's pretty self explanatory. Okay. We have the original drawings and just want to repair what's been damaged by the wire over the years and neglect and Okay. Let's see. Do we have any thank you. Do we have any questions from the public?
Questions from the BAR. I was wondering why you could not, put windows back instead of infilling with brick. Understand the security issue. Maybe put bars or something behind the windows so it wouldn't be, but at least it would allow light into the basement. I I can we'll answer the BR had that discussion, in 2022. So there's a couple of scenarios played with, and this seemed the most, ideal for
their situation. So, but I don't know if y'all want continue continuously get broken up. Yeah. Kids don't care, which is why why we're back home there now. Or a a type of plexiglass that would make it difficult to break? Sure. They broke through a pilgrim door, the 2nd Floor hatch to get to the roof It's also probably inappropriate on a historic building like this. I mean, perhaps we approved in the past, but it would be kind of unusual.
Mhmm. I think there's windows there originally. Yep. I don't know exactly what you're suggesting. What's the The the material plexiglass. Oh, oh, oh, gotcha. Yeah. Yep. I guess my only question is, I think our staff reports said that we're calling for, like, one or two inches of recess, and the proposal calls for the grip to be recessed a quarter inch. And, That was what was in the prior COA. Certainly, you can So I don't know if that bothers anyone up here or if there's a reason that you guys went with a shallower inset. Like, is there some structural reason there? Okay.
I think that's a good point. I like it. It just it may seem sort of a shadow line at the depth. And there will be a a mortar joint that goes around the whole opening. Right? Yes. Okay. On the stairs that are brick that have the you're gonna replace the cap and extend the treads over, is the brick being reused, or are you is there enough brick there existing, or you're gonna have to find some matching brick? Or what's the Well, we spoke with a little, brick mason, m three, And he
believes he has something very similar to what's there now. Mhmm. So we were gonna try to repurpose as much as we could. Mhmm. And if not Then supplement with one hand. Mhmm. So it doesn't move as much. Okay. Okay. One other thing, I saw you're putting drains in the in the concrete, I guess, one minute. That deck. Where's the water getting drained to? If you're facing the building Yes. There's, on the left hand side, there is a, Do you guys mind coming to
the microphone? I'm sorry. On the left hand side of the building, facing left hand side, just to the left of that of that wall at the parking area, there is, storm drain that we were hoping to pipe it it down and through and out that way. That was the last discussion. On the railing replacements on the handrails, one thing I wanna confirm that you're not planning to replace the railings in between the columns that wasn't shown on the plans.
Y'all are trying to retain those. Is that correct? They're at the very front on the portico. Yeah. We were going to replace them as they are, on the original drawings, which is that right there. Okay. Because those Oh. Those didn't show up on on any of the it was point all the arrows were pointing at, like, the stairs, but not those three center sections. So I just wanna clarify that. And there's that's kind of Yeah. That's my understanding. I mean, the whole deck is kinda being reworked. Sure.
Those are our monitors to the columns, though. So I don't I think there's a way you could potentially save those without even if you replace the deck. Where I'm going with this is and let it move. It was a question, like, because I can wait for my comment. But Well, this is why Ultimately, do you foresee I know you've you've said that you're gonna replace them as is, but I'm worried that code requirements are gonna make you all follow the four inch rule, and so they're gonna have a different appearance. And we spoke to staff about that, and we were under impression that we were
since we were putting back what is currently there that we were okay. Okay. So what yeah. That's why I have the condition here. The, Reinstalling the existing railings. So there's a couple ways to look at it. One, there are, because it's a historic structure, there are certain things that, in order to meet code, don't necessarily have to comply. Haven't had a conversation with the code official about this, but I I I agree with that in some, but I'm not comfortable when it's a life safety issue.
So if there's a railing height issue, and that's why the condition in here that I added the first bullet about, if it's replaced, it would be replaced similar, with the understanding that it might have to be at a different height. Yeah. You all can certainly I just don't have an answer for that. But I I said, I know that Virginia code allows some flexibility with historic structures. But I understand all that. There's also these are they're, like, rounded. They're curved. Right? They're not just straight run railing.
So I think that is that at a minimum is a pretty important detail to match if you if you end end up having to replace them, right, with new railings. I would at least match that curve. On drawing a two facing the building on the right hand side between the far right column and next to the left, we have a note that addresses that to match existing. Somebody pull that. So we not not only address the handrails going up, we hit it in the center as well. Okay. That missed, I guess It was it's hard to see.
That's why I was using my phone to zoom in on it. Sure. Right there. Yeah. Okay. Do you know how tall the existing railings are? 42 inches, I believe. Oh. Well, then you're good. Yeah. You're not looking. Are they really? Perfect. I measured them myself, but it's been a couple years ago. Okay. So I'm going off a memory on this. So I think then the only hang up would be potentially if the code official require y'all to do, like, the four inch spacing on the We were concerned with the same thing. Yeah. You know? Everything else world. Not the end the world. Yeah. Everything else was being put back the way the original drawing showed.
Yeah. Somebody did on that left stair going down. They did a hodgepodge of a repair. It's not the greatest in the world, and it's frawling all along. Yeah. Another question on the handrails. If you go to this Stanislav Michalski, drawing, I noticed the detail for, like, a video cap. Mhmm. They're all missing. They're all missing, but were they there? And I would support putting them back Yeah. If you'd like. So you don't plan to replace them? That's a very good question. They'll go missing again. They might. I know. I end up being somewhat squid worm.
Anyway, that'd be nice. Mhmm. Any other questions? What are you doing to ensure that you will not repeat the of the brick and and the concrete in the future? Well, I hopefully hopefully, it's installed per our specifications, and we don't have this issue anymore. We have consulted with several different, quote, unquote, experts with waterproofing slabs like this that are over a finished space.
So we're trying to get the the best solution for this application. It's our intent. Yeah. Because we don't want this to happen again. Yeah. Yeah. So when we were first looking at this, we went through different options. And one was to discharge the water, let it discharge, and come over top of that brick on the very front. Yeah. But then you'd have the same thing in the freeze and thaw happen again. So we, decided to go with the internal drains, the internal drain system, run it
down and out like we just spoke about. R. E. Lee contracting, did a building just across the street from this, and we went over and saw that elevated slab and saw how they did it. They provided the drawings. We matched very similar to that with this one. That's the intent. So we feel like we did our homework to not have this issue again. Yeah. Alright. Any other questions? Alright. Any comments from the public? Alright. Any comments from the public? Alright. And comments from the BAR?
Just wanna commend the applicant for trying to go back to the to stand a song. Mikulski's drawings and digging them up, first of all, and trying to restore those aspects of the railings in the front porch. It's a beautiful building that they just take care of. Is. Mhmm. Or if it was taken care of, then I'm sorry. The, the new board is going to, make sure that's that's handled in the future. Yes. As a newly installed member of the board, I will not take responsibility. Fair enough. We are we are trying to work with that long term culture issues.
And I wasn't And I wasn't kidding that the gentleman did bend and break a Bilco door to get through the hatch to get on the roof. It's crazy. Yeah. That won't happen again. You can explain to them the liability issues. I'm ready with the motion. Sure. Having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including the city's ADC district design guidelines, I move to find that the proposed Mason re related rehabilitation work at 159 Madison Lane satisfies the BAR's criteria and is compatible with this district and that
the BAR approves the application with the following conditions, that the existing railings will be reused. However, if the existing are I think it should be. Salvageable meant to be. The new will, reasonably replicate the existing with the understanding that dimensions might be modified, but I think we've addressed that with our comments. They probably don't have to be modified. And to approval of the info with the brick, receded, is there an a dimension?
I'd say one inch now. The receded one inch from the surround, I guess, or yeah. From the The language of brick infill be set one inch, back from the plane of the brick wall. Back one inch from the plane of the brick wall. I'll read through the whole thing. Approve approval of the infill with brick, with brick, the three basement level windows at the front of the porch with the condition that the coursing brick color and mortar be matched as closely as possible to the historic and that the brick info be
set back one inch at least from the plane of the the exterior brick wall. Okay. Second. Alright. We'll take a vote. Mister Bailey? Yes. Miss Lewis? Aye. Mister Burrow? Aye. Mister Schwartz? Yes. Mister Rosenthal? Yes. Miss Patty? Yes. Chair votes yes. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you, guys. Appreciate it. Very much. Nice seeing you. Good to see you. Great. Okeydokey. I think other business we're going to tackle, described at the beginning of the meeting. We're gonna retire to the, NDS Conference Room at the end of the hall.
Publix is welcome to join us, but we won't be taking public comment during that, working session. So anybody have a motion to adjourn? We we don't wanna adjourn the meeting. We just wanna recess the meeting for a few minutes to go to another place and then Is that correct? Okay. Sorry. We're we're assessing. Recessing now. Updating them. But we're, we're at a point where there's some questions that are obvious questions. There's some questions that are, maybe they're the idea of I feel like my nose
is so close to the chalkboard. I was curious of these questions, and I just wanted to, like, just sort of let you all have a conversation. If you wanna do it in order, if you wanna do it at free for all, I I I, I just want to see if I can take notes and answer So we have the entry tool or which you all have anything to do with it. You have these or conservation district.
There are three districts. And then, of course, there's the 18 district guidelines, which are also given to the IEPs. So for example, one of the conservation district is yeah. It's only two pages for each update. Those maybe a little bit. But we have for each of the districts, you have the characteristics for each of those are very special to each district. So, we have to do, we have to do Martha Jefferson next year. The others, several years later, do I I look at conservation districts separate from the
ADC district guidelines, do I, hold together by just the generic ones and worry about neighborhood characters later. So some of these things, I'm like, just how big this is a very large element, and there's possibly three of them. So, hopefully, if we can identify where you will use things where where do you see things work I would like to thank David for having written an excellent email,
that went out to everybody. Covered a lot of lot of stuff that was well written. It really I thought in a lot of really important things. Sherry followed up with some other very, very good point. And Carl also Was this from, like, two weeks ago? Yes. Yes. Or last week. Couple weeks ago. Yeah. And I thought those were really really thought provoking, and I thought could be a
basis of our conversation, just from that one. And I I really appreciate, each of you taking the time to to put that out and and let it be out there for us to take it out internally. I I also wanted to just thank Jeff or maybe it was Carl that came up with this homework and, the the questions are great. I actually think we could spend an entire I've I've also preface this by saying
I've not wanted to do a special meeting or retreat or whatever, but I thought, I don't know how we're gonna cover all these questions in an hour. I actually dug into it. You know, just like I'm saying, I don't have time. Of course, once I once I started looking at them, I was like, oh, this is really interesting. And then reading through that long list, I really appreciate you and Kate putting together the long list of applications where we had granted COAs. But in addition to that, I was thinking of applications where we didn't grant them, or You're you. Well, or just because, you know, I think you're right.
Right. But there are some that we've denied and just, you know and also once it just would come to us and then, which I mean, nothing, you know, like the viral crime. So but once I start thinking about it, it was it was it took me a long time to to prepare some answers, and I just thought I'd be really curious about hearing everybody's answers. This I don't know how we're doing it now. Because we put out this stuff. But I wanted to thank you because it was good it was good. And it wasn't, like, oh, what new guidelines would you suggest or how do we
skin this cap? But it was really more global and macro. Yeah. So thank you. Scale of these three sets of design we used to do and that there's no easy way to explain. There's not scale, I said over and over again, I need to give you guidelines
and said, we'll be hypersonic guidelines. Very helpful. They tell us what I've canceled. Change so much. It would really be the question of, you know, counsel, us an overview of that
process. So the future is insane with the public. Very, very helpful. And having, like, a flowchart of, like, is then kind of for the public to understand, like, very graphically and very easily Yes. Would be great for owners, for developers, for architects, everybody. Yeah. At least Us. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. There's been so many times where a call, you know, said Yeah. This isn't gonna that's something or this has the only issue. And it's so frustrating to have spent all this time that we're giving to, something
that is I haven't even white checked notes on me. These microphones are off. Yes. Yes. Okay. Great. You know what I mean? I think the Okay. There's super arguments to it, perhaps. But then we'll also, you know, essentially check lists. I think that one of the challenges I've sort of realized is that is that perhaps the affiliate control or whatever might be able to check the box, but then when it comes to us, they don't like it.
Like, do we uncheck the box? Or and I mean, it's, like, site plan is often one that, like, it's fine for zone. It's fine for zoning. There's VA guidelines. It's we're gonna it helps. We'll do the design. It's our guidelines. And then we don't we take it back. And so, like, I think that's one of the big challenges is that sort of cyclical thing where an applicant is feels like they've got it approved until it gets to one or the other of these groups. Right? So I think that's where this workflow really isn't sorted out. It's not there to be a r.
It's branches to be a r Yes. Process. But not all of our applications are going through that process. I I don't think no Mac doesn't realize that, but, like, tonight was a great example. We've got Right. Two small things, but we have a lot we do we do that. That's part of our purview is. There's small renovations, you know, maybe they're maintenance, but So for a fence, it'll be Okay. But it's supposed to be five months. So, Kate, I always like, just when we feel like like, yeah. Not a good enough time except for the vets and biosurgeon.
There's always gonna be a problem. Right. But we would like to eliminate this versus muscle memory. I think, I think this muscle pump is that, but it's, it is quite safe. But we've got so those are challenges with the process. We need to have a challenge with the VA. Well, we I think we've all answered. Remember, it's we're fully out. One of the I know the process, and we discussed it with you, is if someone comes and ends up in your office, for you to be able to say,
you can handle this administratively and do it so it doesn't come to the BAR, and that we can be comfortable that staff is doing what we want and you're you're aware of that. And it should be, again, something that can be given to an applicant or someone who shows up. Here's what's gonna happen. So it's clear. That was the direction I got my loss We will.
We will. We will. That was one of the things too. Because I I I have I have a two inch stack of notes about what I wanna look at, but it's trying to get that to something I can share and not have a consciousness of what I've shared with someone publicly. Ultimately, when we I wanna have something more organized to go through with you already. I your talent? Yeah. You know, so the administrative approval, at least in my mind, when these things are
very cut and dried, very black or white. Like, is it three feet tall or is it five feet tall? Right? Like, you know, whatever. And then perhaps where the BAR can be helpful is when you've got those gray areas. I think we'd all love for there to be a set of things that you guys can or deny. I think, you mentioned thinking about this in terms of our upkeep going up. It seems like it would be helpful to have someone look at both the zoning ordinance and meeting our guidelines and identify this, like, all the specific persons that are,
colliding, not being. And, Sharon, I think I agree. Yeah. Right. And so the challenge for that, who knows, there's some level of analysis necessary to, like, someone who reviews for preservation guidelines, design review style, you think primarily about secondary standards. Ashley, what's your case up? Where the collisions we have are with any x y z zoning, your setback is this. Mine, this is the setback will be this. So some of it, you know, the idea is, alright.
Can we get into that house and say, you know, here are the collisions to those from that high asset scale in place of the building? And then look for a guideline to help address that or because it might it might be different. It might be different. We gotta be keeping an engineering firm or architecture firm to track the landscape. Here's your zoning. That part of what I've asked out loud as well. Once we had that analysis and we went in and said to counsel, here's 20
examples of what the BAR would say and what the ordinance would say. Should we spend money having a consultant to all this? Or that's one of those policy questions. I think that we need someone needs to analyze it. Yeah. I think we've decided that analysis to be determined. I think the key challenge is zoning the height and mass either above and above right. I think that's the elephant in the room. And I'm and I'm not saying that I'm opposed to that that high in Massey. It just doesn't some of it just lies in the face of some of our
guidelines. And and I would say the historic districts themselves would, you know, not just what they look like now, but even the descriptions timelines don't I mean, it's only curling. It doesn't it it doesn't match up. It's like two different cities almost. I would also say just process wise, one of the challenges is Jeff and MK too, their ease of doing the job this job with a new structure and process,
you know, what Matt just described, and, just how, you know, how it impacts them or makes their job easier or whatever. I think that's just a challenge. It may just be a transition rather than a permanent challenge, but, you know, there's a reason why Matt was here tonight, and I figured there are some there's a transition of, but, and I think a challenge is just neighborhoods and, you know, and
I'm not trying to belabor it, you know, the last meeting we had, but neighborhoods and areas that were not represented or were not well organized. We have a lot of neighborhoods in the city that are not well organized. In fact, I would say most are less organized than they were about fifteen or twenty years ago. And, and and that's a down side because I don't think they were well organized, this is my opinion, during the comp plan process or during the adoption of the zoning code.
I'm I'm not saying that the consultants and everyone in the city, you know, we heard about it. Their input was listed, but I'm just not my opinion and it's mine is just that they weren't all at the table. It could have been their fault. It could have been the city's fault. It could have been anyone's fault. But, you know, to have that many people turn out, and those are some neighborhood leaders that, you know, had no idea that this could be built in Fayetteville. That just seems you know, I'm not I'm not and I'm not characterizing those victims, but there's just there's a disconnect there.
So that I think that is I mean, that hopefully, that won't be the last meeting I I have fear that we have, like, that or the last time when those things are in opposition to each other. Then shed no on that. You're exactly right in that. That's why two groups are being told your only opportunity to say something is to the end. I push back to the No. That's no. You don't think that's true? It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be. Did we know? It's a commission to the other committee council.
Right. I mean no. It's also I mean, I didn't not to belabor that particular project. For any reason, it's in front of us at all because they're Those two little ones going after those two. I mean, I feel it's not a historic district recognized for that city. But That's that's, like I know there's some discussion with trying to the community is trying to get some level up, and they don't really know how to do that. And it would be nice to have some sort of process. It should be an HDF. Like, every ten years or every five years or something like that. That's either actually, we don't want to be a part of the district or actually
we do want to be, you know. Yeah. The tendencies. Yeah. Getting I don't know. I asked a lot of people what it's going through. If we do create a district, create a district, that would be all. I mean, first off, I mean, to create a new district would have to be absolutely the overall title rating numbers to do it. But it will also not change the underlying tone. So that's where I had conversation with people to realize that this is something that says VR, take a look closely. It doesn't say it. So that's what we build usually. So, but, a question this question is, like, do you include how and how does
the city promote extension districts? How does the city promote? I don't have I don't have to go do it. We do a lot of we do a lot of history promotion, but, it's, we have to do it. Were you here for the last two historic histories? I don't know. I remember that one. I I was I It was.
I remember that one. I I was I except for when's the first one, Universal's Federal or University, Kentucky, or whatever. Actually, I I I don't competition. I was here for all of it except for, I think, the first two, where they all were adopted. What? But they just Yeah. They just You were there? No. It was the, conservationist Oh, no. The for the only ones I was involved. I was still on the the planning commission when Willa Mills was adopted, and that was the first one. Oh, okay. I'm sure that was or maybe it was it was Martha Jett.
That's right. And that was they really initiated that when Bosco was leading. And then someone William knows had a lot of opposition within it. It was it was hard for I think they were first aiming to be an ATC. Getting back to my assessment, we had the historical house on work that we said should not be demolished. The link to city council, they upheld all of that. And then you came back and said, if the applicant has a way to get
around this by offering the property for sale, if it doesn't Yeah. They the the state code allows them by any, wise transaction.
I'm paraphrasing heavily, but then you can't demolish the structure. Wait. So that state code, it doesn't have anything to do with the state? I think the whole legislation and state that's in our city code. It's in our city code. Okay. What are you saying this is a challenge, or what do you Well, I was wondering whether the city can say we don't think that that is appropriate. No. They can't. Appropriate. No. They can't. They they well, they have the city the city has stated that, and then It's in our opinion. For the code of Virginia, then the applicant gets saved by the way.
So and the intent of that legislation is because it's happening words for them. It was not, it's to say, alright. There's a step back and Yeah. So Google challenges key challenges, in terms of the application process.
I think we've talked a lot about, especially for larger projects that I've learned from the architects, in terms of just the designs in the middle process. Right? And how, you know, it seems like we get a lot of rumbling that our guidelines almost require time to be fully fleshed out, complete, and and a lot of money spent to do that. Right? And it allows me to a lot of iterations to get it to a point where we're ready to improve it.
And then, you know, when we have critiques that make them redesign things, then that's, you know, a step back, so to speak. And so I wonder if, you know, step back, so to speak. And so I wonder if if there's a way to change some of our processes. Maybe with these larger projects, especially development projects, maybe it becomes part of this, development process or work flow where maybe there's actually, like, at a certain level, you know, you go to the BAR, get the VAST to get site plan approved, and then they do some more steps and then come back to the BAR for the details.
That's not that's not the flow, though. It's not in the I mean, but I agree. It's a challenge to studio. I agree. Thank you. I I tried to speak with Lisa Robertson when she said, you can't have these partial COAs saying I know.
Let's do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a key challenge. Let's do that. That's a key challenge. That's what a key challenge. And not here to We're not here to solve it yet. And that's up to city council. I agree. Appreciate it that way. I get it. Okay. But but we've got some architects in the room. I'd love to hear y'all's opinion on that. I think it would be very frustrating to have to go through this whole process with the client in good faith if they're gonna get a COA or the admin, you may not. Right. So it seems like from just, a process standpoint, that would be very helpful.
Yeah. There's one project in particular, the hotel, where, on the mall, where you're seeing these, like, fully detailed renderings. And you think, like, every decision has been made because you're just beautiful. It has the stuff. And then but then when we start asking questions, like, wait a minute. Is that a, like, a brick return? Is it and I can see them just sort of, like, you know, making stuff up because they haven't gone that far. Of course, they haven't gone that far. They don't even have to leave verbally yet. They're not gonna detail window openings yet.
So that that's really a challenge. Gosh. It's a challenge. Yeah. I don't have an answer, but but if you, you know, if you present that detail of a rendering, there's gonna be some needs to say, like, okay. You make it look like that. It's a design development. Yeah. Yeah. I'm fighting with it for years, though. Did you really pretty writers? But it's not always realistic. Yeah. The the challenge we're facing right now, decision to be large scale projects.
Small. I'm okay. I ended up trying to figure out what is to look at it. The I I I think, you know, you asked how long we have to show it was two years. We're still testing and talking through. We have not we don't have the capacity to kind of game play and say, alright. Here's a scenario. What happened? Where's the best? That would and I feel we'll be able to to gain a lot of that out in the middle of the full circle. I think there are still some holes, and I think it would be, there is
a sense, and honestly, there's gonna be discussion with city council in January about, they keep asking about the BAR purview, kind of thinking out the entrance floor as well. You do see them on the big pillars. But that, that expectation of, well, they should just be going to the BAR once and saying, here's what I wanna build. You guys say yes or no. And I've tried to explaining, well, the design process doesn't work that way. And and these are architects. They understand that this isn't you know, they know exactly it, and they for some
large scale projects, a series of discussions is not a bad thing. It it it that and so that it's not when you guys look at something three, four times, that's not bad. That's not No. That's the result. It's been and that's why I asked in this list. It's not not bad. It's good. Yeah. No. I think it's a subdivision. Like, I thought we need to design a house in Bundoor that requires four reviews. Yeah. I said exactly what you were saying. I I understand. Review where it's just about, like, where's the house?
See what needed with the buildings come before the wall. No. It's just and and and you do eventually get down to, like, you know, I don't know how restrictive that would be to a developer to have to go through hoops three hoops, four hoops. But Not a bit. But that's really how you sort of do it from a design standpoint. You do an incremental. It's like, alright. First, check with zoning and make sure that this thing is even, like, gonna beat the the size, the placement, and masking so that we're not having those issues or
discussions at BAR. And and then you start talking about materials. You start talking about landscape. You start and it's a lighter event. And and to be honest with you, they come back three or four times anyway with, like, the same sort of discussion and the same level of drawings rather than kind of like, okay. Schematic is approved. And now we go to assigned development. I think one area where we've had it seems like First Max procedure presented to us is the dial stat. So it sounds like the wrong right track.
Yeah. And one of the counsels we made was that I think we just when we're doing these, I just think we need to be a little more clear. Each one of us, I can support this. This is headed in the right direction. We need to do x, y, and z. I can't support this. It's not in the right direction because of x, y, and z. So just trying to and making it clear. So they see, alright, there's three of us are for it, three of us that are against it, three of us are not here, which I think is also where it gets a little tricky where, you know, the 7th Street we had, the BAR
had a certain makeup at one meeting, and then it was kind of a very different makeup at the next meeting, which I think led to the applicant thinking that they had more support than they did. Because I don't think no one's been inconsistent. I mean, the people who were interested in the, the last meeting were they've been against it the whole time, But it just I think the perception changed. Yeah. So I don't know how we get around that where the applicant has a clearer idea. During these early meetings, they guess they're going in the right direction or no, they're not. So that makes sense.
I I would just on that application, I would disagree with you. I mean, I agree that the applicant is is should be entitled to know early on, you know, the big picture of the massing and how, you know, they shouldn't be surprised. I mean, I'm not sure John was surprised, but whatever. You know, if he wasn't, he'd be surprised that there wasn't as much support as as he had. But I do think that, in all fairness, we don't have a checklist, and a lot of the early meetings were about the little houses. You know? I mean, I would say I mean, I don't think there's any any time that they've come before us when they've asked us directly, are you okay with the high
massing? And we haven't said no. Scale it down here. Do that. But I don't think, you know, even every time it's been modified a little bit. But I think it's like Jeff says, it's all it's an iterative process. And I think our I think all of us are spending an amazing amount of time on that application, like a lot. And I'm not just saying the public comments, but about giving up giving them comments
about different aspects of it. So I I don't think I don't think we were I I just would differ with you in in saying that we're I don't think we're unfair to the applicant. I don't think we're unfair. I think it was the way it turned out, I think, was surprising. Maybe it wasn't. He wasn't surprised, but to me, it seemed like it was a And I know this is a public meeting, and if John Matthews is listening in, I don't care because he's, you know, I'm friendly with him. But, the next day, they were they were ready to scale back a little bit. So I'm I I beg to differ that it was a huge, oh my gosh, you know, I I think that it might have been a direction that they anticipated
that we might have been heading. We just hadn't verbalized yet. But I don't wanna I don't wanna But you made it more authentic of challenges when we're reviewing these these projects. Do we need a checklist, or do we need a I felt like on that one, we might have just, you know, like actually agreed with Carl and say we didn't verbalize it. Yeah. And that is what Carl's point was, was to try and get to that with some clarity on maybe it's not maybe you don't even have the bandwidth to chime in on every single thing, but just whatever you feel strongly the most about. I mean, that's what it is to our guidelines or that isn't in the words
to our guidelines. I just wanna make that review. Yeah. I think that's sort of something that ends up happening. The project is got the okay from zoning code as far as, like, height, mass, scale placement. And we can't really say, well, wait a minute. That doesn't meet the height, mass, scale placement of the area. Well, that that's what I was gonna say. I'm glad I wouldn't you're not allowed to. Well, it seems like we're not allowed to. The most we can do is take, like, two stories off, but that's still Now I understand kind of what Jeff has been concerned about this process that's being brought
been brought before us, and Matt sort of went through this evening. You know, for for from your your point of view as designers and architects and advocating property owners, you probably do want this flow as they presented. But as members of the BAR, does that mean we're hamstrung? You know, if if our review is final, how much could can we modify with where the project's gone at that point? And that's it. That I do do think it has a potential to hamstring us a little bit,
not to have early input. And I think that's what what James was saying. You know, could there be, like Jeff said, a partial COA for mass saving and height early on? I think that's something that yeah. Yeah. LeBron, on speaker one, I'm trying to get my glasses. But, anyway, yeah. That wasn't either. That was This is to this point of reconcile what I put down here to reconcile where we're at.
And there's a part of innovation that said, what we have to do is figure out how to get certainty to people through this process. And what we've done here in the case, in our opinion, is we've given them no certainty. They're they're very concerned about what things look like, when they can go forward, and so forth. And I think that's very detrimental to the city ultimately in trying to build more housing, provide more space, and and new businesses and so forth. And so I my concern is how do we not participate as a board in enhancing uncertainty of of people who want to have projects?
Well, I think that my understanding is that and again, we don't want to focus on that application. No. It's a it's a good intent. But my understanding is that application was the only one or maybe one of the few ones and the most maybe the most major one that came forward before this new process was adopt or was being formulated. So and and I think staff and maybe the applicant too, I don't know, agrees that if they had to check those boxes, then what Matt said, it would have
been more predictable for the for the staff. For the applicant. Yeah. And and, again, they wouldn't have come to us. So, you know, I'm glad that we had input on the project, especially with those sort of structures. It's a weird, you know, it's a weird situation. It's not just what do you build in an ADC district. I know it's not, you know, it's not an ADC district. Just say it was somewhere else, and it was, like, West Main or something or whatever. That's a You know? The thing I I wrote down is we we have to discuss, which is it's all it's that chapter, an IBP versus a district.
And it was it was interesting to me that that the West Main Project and the South Street Project were coming at the same time. It actually offers, the two examples to use internally. Okay. These are actually two different things. They're very different. I was hoping it'd be a little more positive discussion on it, but the there's also, similar to that, where you should be looking at a new building in the area, like, West Greenwood, where we basing this on. But something that I just and then I'll pop is Tim Moore had mentioned a
long ago. I'd like to bring it back somehow as when we have a large scale project to establish, just like we did with the, cafe spaces. What are the principles that are gonna guide us on this one? And at seventh speaking to the community, they didn't know where you all stood. They were wondering why is the VAR that's a bad explanation or or a salary.
But one way we could solve that is to say upfront. Here are the the principles we're gonna use. And then just to the point of the high pass scale, it all works if you all say, move it back, push it back, move it step back here, and the applicant says yes. Under the current process, I will see process, I think, the foreseeable future, the the break of the chain and and I think it just has to happen. So it's evident that I'm not interested here. You go and Yeah.
If they disagree, they have nothing to appeal. There's no there's no higher level to take it to until you've voted on CLA, which, as Matt explained today, is down the line after they finish some level of cycling. So if I again, if we can, let's level that smoke bomb and set it aside because I know I have to I know I have to figure it out. The commercial COAs, it's not that. It's it's it's so long. We can't can't do that. Assume we can't. And I I would like to say, I have felt that the BAR has gotten
involved in the projects and made them better. The the comments have been made have changed, I I think, the hotel in West Bay. I mean, on the on the mall, that's that's better. I think I think I think Oh, it's it's Yeah. I think this this project was 7th Street got substantively better after after our comments. In fact, most of the large projects, I feel the BAR has.
And I it I can understand they may be frustrated having to come back three and four times, but it takes time for us to to see it. But the final projects were better than what they came with at the end. Are people frustrated to come back three or four times? I think it's more of if they get three or four times down the road and then find out, oh, shit. Yes. Sorry. It's being Yes. It's being used. The project's not gonna be approved. Yeah. It's certainly it it's being used to fuel the well, you know, the VA.
Well, they are who they are. So it it is, even the slightest appearance of, you know, come back next week, is I would say the Portland, project was, you know there was a it seemed like they expected an earlier approval, and it turns out, you know I don't know if you guys think that's enough. It doesn't it's off topic. You know, that's funded. So Except the work that's in a big building.
Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. And and they and there's a there's new cycles that they could they could be. It's not dead for us. And I've used that. And I've said, alright. Let's take But I think we were kind of we were being blamed for that, and I'm not certain that that's fair. Well, a claim was made, miss Swan. I don't know if he wanted to go to the plaintiff. She said if I want to the Thornton took that work session. Yeah. I went to the council. And I said, here's how many things the VARs. Oh, that was that. Yeah. I said, you know, it was, like, 1,500 things, and they denied 84 denials, and
only four of those denials were, like, from residential classrooms. So, and I said the answer to school has by far more large scale residential buildings ever to my end. And so there is a there is a perception of it. I think that is one of the challenges. I I I do, I do worry that that an argument is being made on some sides that the design review process is why you're not getting more housing vouchers.
The facts will back that up. But we need this is what Kate and I have been talking about, like, the analysis we need to do no need to show that. The housing folks are code regardless. So it's oh, yeah. You can't build new affordable housing. Period. Period. I'm sorry, folks. It's not you can find financing for it, but the cost of new construction makes
it impossible to build a new affordable, which means rental unit even and and it'd be worse for be simple for ownership. But you cannot build new, not with the not with tariffs. I'm not being political. I'm just saying not with the not with cost of lumber that was already skyrocketing before tariffs, not with the current building costs. You cannot the the best thing the city, I think, can do is look at opportunities to redevelop existing places.
And it's not gonna be brand new and spanking beautiful. It's not gonna be new construction. It's gonna be renovations and modifications. And I can think of a lot of existing buildings where that would be appropriate, but we seem to need to build new new construction affordable housing, and that isn't it's it's a conundrum. It's you can't it's not Seymour. Thank you. Am I? I'm sorry. But You're right. That's that's why this can't be done. That's why developers aren't knocking bigger project to them.
It's a very j margin. It is. But I think I I fear a pressure to Even if they get grants, you know? Yeah. Well, let us build this with you know, something that you create in the next ten years. And, oh, yeah. You get to do a lot of it. Kate, can I Let me also hear the argument of, like, oh, well, if you make me knock these two stories off my building, then the economics don't work? That's fine. Really I mean, like, the two stories. But if you don't but if you don't build that materials, then we're gonna lapse. Yeah. And that's where it has I mean, some of these old guard apartments, four story
guard apartments, there's a lot of voices. And you get off and down by, you know, hospitals. They've had your middle house. That was But we're not gonna build it. That was workforce housing that could have been converted, could have been bought by private property owners and converted to workforce housing right in the middle of the city of Charlottesville where those people can walk to work and not have to use buses or cars or anything. There's a question about process again in going back to 7th Street. Michael Payne has said he wants to bring before city council to try to get
community involved in these projects. I don't know how he's gonna No. So council did did say they wanna have a meeting sometime early next year Yes. To discuss student housing and discuss possibly, you know, BAR purview might be part of that. The in lieu fees and why they're different between student housing out of student housing. That that radius that they keep talking about. Yes. So there's supposed to be a work session early next year. Okay. And and does that should that have any bearing on our view of when he
brings his project to us? Well, it would have a bearing on especially that the policy decisions of so page a little bit. We've been talking a lot about the buildings. We also have guidelines. Which is the lion's share of what you guys can do to work on whole buildings. So I don't wanna lose sight of that, but the, the I would my if I had to lay it on a table, my concern is that, design review has a bull's eye, and, it's seen as an evident outcome.
And it's it's, maybe a few anecdotes about very few large scale projects, and not looking at the whole like what you all do in within. Like, it just doesn't get in school. So I I I but if they have those conversations and said, we're gonna change what the DAR looks at. Yes. That would change what we would be asking to solve with that. I guess, it seems like we've been asking for some multiple figures to have at
least a two step design review process. And every time we've asked, asked, you've told us because I ignored that and that we're not allowed to do it. So we're offering a solution to all these people who are saying that the design review process is the problem. So don't tell us no. If you want us to help, this is how we think we can help. Send that up the chain. Go to change the organs. And is there really the most perception that we're, like, anti Yes. Because I check with me, Carmel, tell me that you guys don't have enough teeth.
You're letting, like I I have those people telling me You're you're letting too much stuff come through. Yeah. And I was like, oh, yeah. Like, I can't think you're too tough. I hear more of that than I hear of that we're sort of anti low income housing or some, like, reactionary. Different. We we weren't the one but we weren't the ones who stopped the violent crime. Council said we're not interested in giving you the additional idea that they said they needed to make that financially successful. So we've been we've been shoved under the bus and run over about five times
on that one. We're the one who voted, you know, for the demolition. We're supposed to just understand we are one of the many reasons that we need. Like, again, it's Yeah. The, you know, the form based code and the, you know, in lieu fees and all that other stuff. So I'll speak blank to people. I don't know. I and, you know, obviously, if so, we talk about big buildings, we make the quote challenges. I I just I don't think You know?
What happens if one of you guys leave? Can you add off your I mean, Jeff keeps threatening retirement. You know? Hey. I don't know what your life plans are. I mean, if one of you guys leaves, is there some way to I'm married to this city. I'm married to this city. I'm here. Definitely. It's my husband. Sorry. I get to your desk. No. No. No. No. I get to see the phone circle. Just jump the street to this. We have a new system that's supposed to make everything streamlined, but Kate has to
check every single billing mark because it doesn't flag, whether it's signed with people. Or will get bogged down because, like, it's just an address check. Really? The address is just not like it. Or, like, you think. You would think. You would think. Okay. Everything. We start on the list. Yes. And the top or it's the, This is why, like, Kelly, as you said last week, go through what are the common sense things that you guys should handle. We spent so much time talking to people about what do they need to do
for that condition. Windows, again, popping up. People not gonna cut down treatment. Like, a awkward example, mister, the key words property over on Grady Avenue, we've got the area or c in front of the building. No. They're leaning over. Yeah. They're ready to I can see the foundation walls impact. He wants to cut them down. Technically, that's supposed to go to BAR. I just and I don't it's where I go. If the tree is damaging the building, you plant a new tree, but, yeah, the
rules and then with the new tree removal permit required to it. So we spent a lot of time dancing on it, explaining or being trying to go, gosh. What do you guys need to be able to do? So that's hopefully, a lot of that's gonna get captured in our common sense solutions. Right? So, you know, some of that That's something the city historically hasn't had.
So our historic design guidelines don't click with big building. Right? They seem to suggest that they should be within scale of the neighborhood. I would also say that we don't currently have a lot of That's what I'm saying. The existing fabric, you know, and the guidelines are far apart. And the the the goal of the development code is to get us bigger. But, yeah, it's I don't I don't think our guidelines necessarily say it has to be a certain you know, we don't have high limitations in the guidelines, for example, not that I know of.
We don't really have massing percent except for the average of the within the I say this The spacing between buildings matters. That setback in the sidewalk matter in particular neighborhoods. There's a rhythm there. We know we don't have a West Main, but but an overinventable neighborhood, High Street. There's a rhythm to those. The second thing I tell people is, yes. The guidelines say Billy should not be taller than 200%.
But the more important one is there is that the the facade height at that front facade should be within a 130% of the veil. And to me, that means you can keep that harness line going, and then you have a step back. I said, the BAR, the spinal pipe, provided it doesn't shave them all over. I said, but the BAR is not afraid of height. Both VAR does wanna maintain that rhythm of spacing, that rhythm of setback, and that voice line will step up.
And that that I said, there is there's new buildings. One zero one as far as VAR is concerned. Now when you get to materiality, I do think we'll have some feelings about that one. I think we I I do have that on my list to address. I think people are gonna go tall buildings. There's there's they do use on tall buildings. But where will you all get in and go we have these places where I get asked historic preservation questions, and it's really not made it difficult for me to look at that empty lot West of Main Street and say this is a historic
preservation question. It's, it's an urban design. What do we and I think that's one place where you Jenny Keller will beat me up for saying this, but, you know, there's some places where you just might say, you know, what are we reviewing? What is this? You know, these gap areas, how do we treat that? It might differ from how we treat something on the I mean, I think, you know, I think that, you know, building did good on one side, not good on
two others. It's a long time. So this is where we got it wrong Well, I was gonna but I think I think the challenges of workforce is testing, you know, and I think, what I think what we last talked about was sort of the challenges of either public or between, and those are challenges, you know. People in the city that don't appreciate what this board does, including people maybe on council, but just don't know why we exist. They don't know that our authorities from council.
They don't know that council is responsible for adopting ultimately the guidelines. You know, then they don't under I I appreciate that. I understand a specific question, but what how do you think council receives the BAR? I I I don't I don't know if we wanna specifically say that here, but but we're there are some there's sentiment in the room repeating what that there are members of council that don't understand what we do. And there certainly are members of the public that don't understand what we do. And then there are members of the public that appreciate what we do.
But I I do all I think all of that is a challenge, and I don't think the new development code helps that. It probably makes it more challenging. It goes back to the account the key challenge, how do you reconcile the new zoning code code with the VR guidelines? And to a certain extent, because I don't know how this works legally, but it was adopted democratically by the council. I think that it precedes a lot of what we need. Right. Whatever the I want I guess I wanted to create certainty for people who wanna
build this in the city. And if they can't rely on the zoning code and they perceive us as getting in the way of using that code in reliance to develop plans that go through a whole process before they get to us. It costs a lot of money. And then we somehow, we get in the way they proceed that we get in the way, and we say, no. We don't think you know, in some case, you can do that. You can have this many stories, but we don't think you should be having the many stories. I think that gets to be a real problem for people as they're going forward
because they're doing the finances of it in advance. How this is how it how big it is. I kept the impression on that Service Street project may have come that way. I didn't wanna keep that fresh. I I know I know. You mean from the last meeting? I was not at the end of the meeting. Because I was not at the end of the meeting, so I just I was not at the lab. Okay. Oh, no. But I've been at the other meeting, so I should go with the with the the development team there, and they I did too. Said overall that they I mean, they're they're not 100%. They'd like to not have to come before us.
But but, anyway, now we're probably Yep. The water's a lot of right now I think some of it, you all are
in the process. You know, we deal with a lot of anecdotal stuff. So it really needs actual, analysis of, alright, what what have you looked at? How long does it take it to get approved? I I would love to see, alright. If things just gone through, how many have gone to billing? I'm sure you're exactly right. There's quite a few places you guys have looked at it never happened. I mean, obviously, the first one, that's we talked about that. What analysis or thought thing that actually, what you should think about is, our curfew,
is it to always make a project better, or is it to grant approval that's just good enough? And I know I struggle with that. And I feel like we all kinda struggle with that. And it's I don't know if we internally just consider at what point Yeah. What is the the cutoff for us? Gosh. I struggle with that so much. I just wanna, like, get a piece of paper and, like, I'll figure it out for a few hours. I'm sure I'll just feel that way when people visit later products. But I don't know if we need it. I don't think we should answer that, but I think that's something I think we
should be thinking about. Well, I I don't offer about this.
And, you know, that you could say we have design guidelines. We have this zoning code. If that, like, came to some algorithm that could, like, spit out buildings, is that what we want? You know? And I think I think what we are why we're here is because we are, like, passionate designers and have good ideas and can help people. You know? And as, like, a volunteer, I wanna help people and help the city. So, like, I'm gonna try to make projects better every time I look at them. I I it's just who I am right now. But I was in Houston last week, and I stopped, like, looks like there.
It looks something that we're we're doing. That's I've seen a lot of time. Not to say anything more. I was like, this is we're gonna be done in Houston. I mean, it's really And if not So back to analysis information, how about I'll
just throw something out because Jeff kinda mentioned it before. Like, maybe in the new guidelines or maybe, you know, you've got one set of new development code. Are are IPPs, do they have a different review than something in an AGC district than maybe I mean, the 7th Street things is very unusual, but it's like a blue moon diner sort of thing. But, you know, where the asset a historic asset is a small part of a
larger development plan is that, like, a third set of review guidelines or analysis or whatever, you know, checklist, whatever. Functional periods, you can say for? Yeah. Yeah. They got now I wasn't on the tell tell me why. I I was to say so we we reviewed the we reviewed the office building portion because it was connected to the historic building. Right. But the rest was The the workers were not part of our work. But still, that was a it was a lot of discussion, like, where does our The most frustrating. Yeah. I'm trying to What would that happen to the building they're doing next to West
Salem? I mean, did we approve? We do have it. Definitely. I I I feel a little frustrated with that. I have not heard back from the developers. I I have not heard the process yet. But what what showed me on that is that we were contacted with people requesting the BAR do certain things. And I assure most people and everything, you all, the booking need to speak because the BARs are very costly.
They're very aware of the height of that thing. They're gonna probably do some of these things to get it that will raise. But then following that meeting, it seemed to be a, there seems to be an effort to just have nothing there. So I'm I'm I'm, moved at all. And and also the other piece complicated is that that there were criticisms about the VAR not staying firm and saying, oh, we want tall buildings here because that's what
we needed for affordable housing. So we got it in every direction. But I think it's where, you know, again, maybe with that, say, more robust pre application discussion and establishment of some things that that, you know, are years of personal experience. You just move forward on this. And that's gonna take development process too that we're all it it it's gonna be be a little more homework when I send you all something out that's a pre ad conference. We're gonna have to dive in a little deeper and, you know, James, you as
chair. I have to pull our feet to the fire a little bit. What's that? But we've gone with the checklist. As far as the checklist goes, if you look at any of my pre app, staff reports, I just think it's like, you want the detail on this. You want a wall section. You wanna see that and Carl has it now automatically, working out what's happening. The balcony was the ceiling of the balcony. And, so, and so it's it's in a new nurse's advanced application, and, I I automatically will ask for the joint details of this.
But that's me. That's not my language. Twelve years. That's what I was sending you back. Yeah. No. I just literally argue for seeing something for these pre app conference these conferences, which are required by code to be just simply comparing and contrasting with the guidelines and project. Where do you see other things that you can shot at? Well, it should be happening at least one of our skill projects. It's where it K-nine may not let you be in the room if you have really tremendous guidance on quite massive scale.
And now whether the applicant takes that and just, you know, responds to it in their subsequent application, we'll see. But that's I think, at this point, that's the that's that's the best thing I can offer here. I I I'll thank you for your input. I know everybody Do you wanna hear what we'd wanna just so we could do a round table with we you know? Like, it should work or it makes it Well, no. This one is the last one. So I just So you're asking a consultant to respond to RFP. What would she absolutely insist being the scope of what? Yeah.
That's I think we could just go around. I mean, Jane already said one that's very important, which is in the districts, like, Downtown Mall, I think, like, needs some subset of rules. Maybe maybe sub subdistricts. Like, we did West Main and we kind of did that to wait until a couple of different sections. Yeah. Specifically, I mean, it would be nice for a consultant to actually do an analysis
of height scale passing of midterms. It's like, you know Yeah. It was far In the downtown mall hotel, you know, there's a lot of sort of anecdotal like, the developer saying, like, oh, there's only, like, two or three parcels where this could possibly happen. So don't worry about this becoming, like, a high rise. Well, this sort of, like, walking down the downtown mall was, like, I think there's a lot more than two or three places where this could happen. And if we're not careful, you know, you're gonna have ten Twenty.
12 story bills or twelve fifteen story bills. And then you like, you've lost your account back to a more traditional model. Well, but that requires work. You know? It's a trade to say, like, okay. What is the average height Or what is the The MBA's got the school of data science. Right? Like, you know, I mean, somebody Which that mindset, not an error, not a scientist, but, like, just a data analyst. Yeah. I don't know. Like, and who's the dude the lucky dude that, like, gets to to glue it to glue the new buildings in there.
Good job. I know. And and burned down the old ones. Just ask for quiet. But it it's a terrific question that we, we go around a neighborhood. What would absolutely be That's our feet. Start to work for that. Yeah. No. I can go to the neighborhood. You guys just wanna take it. Austin and I, work in the street in some area at twice. Out there that would say, you know, I can program it to measure the spacing between buildings. Yeah. It's not possible. And it's not just easy to say, hey, consultant.
Do this. Because it never actually take longer to explain to the consultant what we need than RDS people just to do for us. So Mhmm. One thing I think, Bernard, it would be for staff to have a list of things that you feel would be important for you to be able to do your jobs better? I think time. I keep telling my boss time. And she can't. She's so excited to Can she produce another person, or is that not helpful?
That's true. I got to read you the descriptions, you know, the just the narrative description of the districts, I think it's good, like, for somebody who doesn't live in the city to do that. Because I feel like they would have a keener eye than we do. I really struggle with writing mine.
I know I never presented to you guys, but I do apologize. I I West Main. Like, I how do you summarize West Main in a couple paragraphs? Are you kidding? Like and even when you when you break it down into sections, it's still so I I think a I think a professional planner architect might have a better eye for capturing what's there now and and also maybe what direction with the development code we might wanna go. And that might also be part of the narrative. Like, I I do appreciate guidelines that would general description.
This is emphasized front porches or emphasized you know, this block emphasizes verticality of commercial building, you know, whatever, for It was a big success. But it those seem like the low hanging fruit, but I do think that they're really important. And I think they will be more important when we have applications that are, you know, that are really difficult in front of the very a very aggressive development code. You know, and I don't wanna revisit 7th Street, but, you know, it's the other
one that I had was guideline writing guidelines that that are not subjective, but objective. And I know that's really we we have some that are really subjective. We have ones that I think are fairly discernible and maybe more objective. But, you know, I I was I was on the BAR when we we last redid our class. And I think Frasier, for what they could do, Frasier and Associates did a good job. And but I don't think that we were, like, rewriting it.
I mean, we just we have I don't even know what the guidelines were before. I I know we were very skeletal, and we needed some way. And I don't think that however, I doubt that council reviewed them much. I think we reviewed them a little bit, probably made some tweaks, but it wasn't like a year or two long process. The challenge for me, can I would be helpful if you guys could just Like, I I for example, you do the thing about rules and we're supposed to let's say I've replaced the furnace on my house?
I'm supposed to save I'm gonna put my house. I'm supposed to save everything I can, only replace what needs to be replaced. And my house is already it's old, but it's cobbled together. God knows what. And he gets to that question of, I I mean, I don't wanna be, like, a place to handle that and that and so called action, but I think there's some it that's where some reasonableness in those, some flexibility will be useful. I I don't know if it's sold. I said, they're gonna set your standards and kinda say, here's what everybody else does.
But I think there's some places that we need to add some flexibility that all of you understand. But I absolutely agree that you you I was writing I hope I I got it all now. What you you said was and I heard it. We need someone to look at these districts in the context of of describing them such that that description's of use when we're evaluating. Because if you read them them now, some of them, lots of parking. I think one of them talks about the lots of parking, auto oriented, power lines,
power lines, cover lights are, you know Yeah. And and not written in terms of, alright. If you're going in to evaluate this, what are the characteristics of this? It's a good deal then. So that's Right. Right. You're mixed. Yeah. I I think I'll send just a big the description is gonna be helpful because I think there's probably there's been a lot of buildings built since 2012 or I don't know if the character wasn't a hang. So that's so that's sort of where I come back to especially less than the train tracks in that in that big of a lot.
It's must have been, like, that is the character. It's a big building. Like, that is the character of that strip right now. And so, like, as much public outpouring as there was to say how to build this, like, I think I would have a hard time sitting against the guidelines for that particular location field. Yeah. And so and that gets into the verbiage and, like, where does our verbiage stop and start? Is it within the district? Where do we factor in these, like, neighboring neighborhoods? Right? That's a challenge. Yeah. That's a little for me, I have to somewhat sort of remove, how I feel
about, like, the effect it's gonna have people around it because it's a much different scenario significant. But, you know, I mean, yes, there is a neighborhood around there, but it's not like, the impact is that's that's big. And I know that's a lot more urgent, but I can't help. Is is everything that the aide does outside of our apartment? Homeless. Everything that's Oh, it's not the foundation for the school.
They can voluntarily bring things to us and they have before. There's They didn't have to ask. University, they don't have to ask because there are insights away from what they should. There's just, you know, a small scale Once you've worked with us, I think something to do what you are you do have an advisory role as a citizen, on the extent and scale of the the district. So what's designated? And I and may not speak to Chris Fisher Harris here, but I I one
of the questions that Kate and I bounce around a lot is what is what is critical for what is threatened? What's critical what what's sacrificed? Where you know? And, you know, for example, I'll say I'll call. We have a lot of storefronts. The store behind your bill I don't know. I put it in the seventies. If you wanna change it, I would say change it. If you walk, you know, a couple blocks there, some commercial storefronts would absolutely be pristine from, you know, wherever that building that in. We should identify those, and then that's, you know, really what these are special, and
we may have to be any recommendation to shift those boundaries, change those boundaries, add, things to those boundaries will go through the renewal first. So, so that's also part of this recommendation and also part of the codes to evaluate, participants to evaluate the true structures. I've left it off the table a little bit, but you all do have a role in that. And I think it'd be helpful to do some thought to, you know, what what is this city is not we're not a museum, and, what are places that we
really need to to to where where we get your deals? And I guess you'll say, look, like work history. We'll see. But the next set is, so does that probably make sense? Not now, but Yeah. That provides you to, I think, the reevaluation also of contributing versus not contributing. Yes. Not to say to, like, kind of greatly lessen the amount of contributing, but there are certainly some that that can't be seen. Everything up and down on Market Street used to see all of those contributing. Enterprise Building. One of the horrors probably came in. Right? That's like, one we were recently reviewed, the lady was, you know Oh, okay.
It's our Dawn's Florist shop. Yeah. Yeah. I graduated at the yoga studio. Yeah. It's like, that did not need to come to us. I'm sorry. Do what you want. Right? So and there's probably just a little bit of low hanging fruit that could kind of get get to where people are getting to the brain things. And did we ever decide what happens to, like, if you knocked down a contributing building, put a new one in its place? Is it still contributing? It's not It is. That's a great What is the idea of the property? That before unless counseled by ordinance undoes the historic designation.
It apparently still lives. So I'm thinking the corner of Cherry And Rich Street, we've got the hotel, the apartment building. Do we have to review that if they have done It still appears where it gets. Interesting. Is that what you call it again? Well, because Well, because the only place and this is a GIS meeting that Kate's been taken with is we don't the only place that we have that that says whether it's contributing or not is on the map. So nobody would be kind of like, okay. That's building An F Y Z. But So without without designating notice of IPP?
Well, no. Just simply to note that it's not an address. There's no upper address that changes in five years. That number is assigned to it. But so if you will, at all, there are buildings that are on this map that were on this map only because the AR approved them, and then they got shaded. So there are buildings. The VR is approved that are contributing. But if tomorrow, somebody wanted to come in and knock down the, the standard, I
would say it's not procuring. It's not shaded on this map. That one's been updated. It is. And I think we've got the updated in here, but we we Real Okay. The question is, you say, how did I knock that building down? But then we get to review with it. Correct. You know, one of the things I've raised about 31 work is, you know, some of these assumptions would be, of they can knock down the building. Knock down the building on. Well, the approval they have to to build something there was relegated on for because they're built. So that's gotta be understood.
And then So the seal is where the time is ticking on both of the seal is. Well, they are So okay. But if they've done they go something to clean you, that still would have to go to the so it's not like not it's down. It's just cutting that carbon carbon watch. But that would be another question. That would be a positive question for Natalie. If if you allow a, a a contributing building within a district to be raised, does that property itself stay in the I don't know the street, there's the parking
garage, iconic. It's underground, but there's a building there. On this map, it's not it doesn't show up as a building. So because it was the GIS there is using creative. So one of the things Katie and I are wrangling with in our analysis is, let's contribute, let's not have a way to enter plan. The statute is not, you know. So I'm just gonna you know, for a question. I mean, I so my point is, I've been part of the RFP with the consultant. Find some list of I'd say anything that they want to change the destination on.
We're super tight. So that it's not So that it's not necessarily, like, overused on us to review every single building. Like, to set up floors. Right. Let me I mean, when they propose the changes to us to say, like, every single building the destination on, and we get a last chance to look at those. If there's a reason to say no, keep that on the recruitment list. I guess I'm pretty sure Yeah. Which which is a curious with you.
But, Paul, the We did. There was supposed to be a Walgreens there. That's true. And the city This was on Well, I I I I I'm I'm I'm I've picked enough fights this year. Okay. Yeah. I remember you. I don't I've never seen it there. So question that it, also we have on our list of things.
This is. Yeah. Do we ask what there's so we break things up. So we use some analysis beforehand, but that's for chapter two of these discussions. Is the consultant going to report back to you guys in the bar, or they gonna report to city council?
Well, none of them. They we all work for council, so the political answer is yes. They would not have to but they they consult for the BAR you stuff, we would review with you that make a recommendation counsel to build the labs. The answer to school work would go to language. And, of course, the age old question will not apply as the BAR. But, I I we still I'm still chalking through this. I I think it's that it ended up on time. We have some analysis we have to do first.
It may be a consultant that does that, but to inform us before we hire the design. And I think we may need to leave chapter one and sort of a survey of districts, evaluation of buildings that might in order to This is the claim Fisher
dealing with these same issues? Different issues. I mean, we we just looked at the Fortis code, a week ago and looked at some of the cut things that are in there. But there's issues that came up where, well, you know, the the build to results, like, with the again, You need to grapple with Windows.
Yeah. I'm trying to just get a check on. Well, we'll think we you know, the guidelines currently are sort of only replacement there at a certain state. But I think that there's a tendency often to just say, okay, just let them replace this longitude for something quality that matches matches what's there. So I mean, it's that's one that's it's it's the secretary of interior standards are pretty clear on it. I think that public sentiment is against the secretary of interior standards. Right? Right.
Energy code. All, you know, energy kind of all those things people want in the dibs. Right? I mean, I've asked a couple more to, like, have energy inefficient point of the codes. I've got them. But Yeah. And this is what I'm saying. It is this if you would get like it is something that people kind of feel strongly about. And I think that we owe it to the city to, like, make a decision. I mean, like, our guidelines seem to suggest that we should be enforcing more repairs.
Right. And we tend to allow more replacements. Yeah. And so do we just need to change the guidelines? Actually enforce our guidelines? But when you say we change the guidelines, we have to get a council to agree to the change. Correct? Yes. Part of the part is for this I guess I'm I'm just saying that's one that that's on a particular topic that needs I'm just suggesting that. I mean, I I broke down a lot, sort of saying earlier. If I know someone that has handmade windows in their house and I have to
go through a little bit very differently. We had a house that Rich Street was built in the sixties. Lower grade windows, little screens. It's like, I don't Yeah. I mean, I hear that. I think the problem is it just keeps going first. I I understand. So I think it gets into your users' word, sacrosancts. But, you know, there's certain buildings that we're willing to really fight for to save those windows. And, well, the rest I don't know.
I have I have a resurgence for maybe other areas of the city, but not a lot of mischief done on windows downtown. People just do it. They know that Yeah. I told you that a former chair of ABOR told me they would they were somebody would come to them and say, you think your VA already approved this? She'd get she'd go, no. But if you do it on a Sunday night, it'd be super nervous. It's just a chair. But, you know, for small things. Like, she would never she wouldn't ever do that for Easter, but, like Well, there's there's a chapter where It's hard.
It's like spelled like this where people are like, why why do you make people say this? You know? And it's like, that's where the friction really puts it for the most people. And I would like, from my end being on the BAR, did see follow-up to
what we've done, like, not knowing what happened on, on work with or at West Haven or with the trees on the downtown wall. If we could have something that would say, here's what we've approved or here's what we've done. Here here here's where that project is. Abandoned? Or like Inland loads? Or is there any, you know, when people do something without approval? Yeah. And that's why I'm asking you to penalty. Yeah. You prefer a voluntary.
A jerk. Thing. I'm like, oh, I just drove by a house like Raiders on Jefferson Street or whatever. I think it's Jefferson as good as that's beside the new courthouse. And at the end of the street, we said the White House. It's not in a district. Basically, towards the towards the front porch shop. How does that matter in the district? It got left out loud. That's always It never had a front porch. The same spot. Yeah. It's it's it's so Marshall's old old office building. It never had a front porch. I don't even think it had this super it it was it was a weird
Yeah. The 80180 yeah. 801. 801 is east of the art. But, the other one's, that corner's not in. It's, I do talk to folks a lot about things, and we walk walk through, you know, if they wanna do something, right, how are you doing it? Maybe Certainly. I I work with people in flu symptoms and downpuffs a lot that that, you know, I know what we wanna see, what we don't wanna see. So it's, I and where I probably do where used to be an administrative view
of, like, pay me on trucks, you know, and you'll file it. I tried it as much as possible to treat those as a guide, getting results of, via email, which is more or less important. So just need to think through. But it's then what you said or who asked if if if Kate and I didn't come to work tomorrow, then the problem with that is that, yeah, that's kinda how we do it. But if all of a sudden, you know, Kate, I haven't made it home from Hopewell, you'd been digging through a pile of paper going forward. That that actually doesn't ramp up. I'm really I think we've we need to grab some history approvals to get a
list of those up there. So They should all be in stairs. Sometimes things Jeff and I don't talk to each other for a day or two. I don't know. Yeah. You guys don't I'd say I I I have, for example, buildings on West Bank
in 1980. At least when it was out, you know. Finish on it. And he's like, well, is the VR gonna make me restored? I said, we don't know what you're doing now. Take it off. Take it off. You have my word. To to put up the glass screen again, you can do it. I said, but just let's see what you got in there. That's nice. But I don't want someone to be so terrified to take off the that ugly, like, get a house on on Park Street where it's covered by all siding, and they were afraid to take last Let's see what you got.
Yeah. Alright. Thank you. I know. Appreciate it. Yeah. No. I was just saying, Yeah. I mean, I didn't I didn't see the list of It was attached. Yeah. Not much. Nothing comes to mind. For me. Oh, I have I have a big one. Oh, absolute the courts. That's the big one. Best public, yeah, best public building.
Over for one of the first ones. What? The rats. Is what? The rats. Rats. Yeah. Alright. No. The The rats. Rats. Yeah. Alright. Now that, the they're I don't know what the material is. I'm sure I know we're gonna prove it, but they have vetches out front and those trees were, like, one inch tall or they'll they will not provide shape along this time. Those fetches are black and they're high as shit on a warm day. Once in the winter, they'll be really warm. You know, like today, I'm quite a bit warm to sit there, but they are hot as hell. So we should never approve black wedges.
Blood. They're stone. So they really absorb it was like a mistake. I can't believe I can't believe that firm. Like, I'm sorry, but I'm surprised here. Eric sat down, he burned his butt on it. I thought I could have done more with the windows. I thought that they were still in the layout. I'm not sure what's the Well, that was a little They replaced them. Yeah. They replaced them all out. Staying. I think we approved that. We did. Yeah. But it was We did. I guess some slight of hand there that I can't And I don't like, what? It's been releasing on the record. It's I think it I do think it is, I think it works.
The building works. That's where you all were talking about a height relative to the Cornish line. I mean, you go back and look at the business directly where, and and certainly their architects were in agreement, but it was after those discussions and that forest and ISD really works very successful. I but that's the only one shared. I think it would be Institute It's a two unit public buildings is what I call it. Yes, ma'am.
The the only other one, it it we've had some age on it, but I don't think we've ever had any constraints on this. There's no but the storefront at Chats is pretty nice, and we have it on the list. Yeah. We've proven I know it's 2022, but I don't know when it was built. It was just the one pretty much replicating it. But it was better. Wanna do something. Wow. Like, tell the guy to put How about how about the district done? The How about how about the district at the hotel? That's Ephys, that's Jesus' fiance. The hotel. That's Ephys' That's Jesus' fiance.
Joints. I mean, I was gonna say that, like, the thing that's across the street from McGuffey is, pretty great except for the fact that they still haven't finished their knowledge. So the I thought it was a thousand and five seconds. That still hasn't finished? Okay. They need to come back to us. But they're still working. Right? Are they? I saw it pretty kind of far advanced. Not finished, but I mean, there's just an approval for that that stair the back portrait. Yeah. It's like a hotel branch instead of I I I don't I'm just asking something.
What'd you call would be we would be happy to host again.
So the last time the meeting went on It was late. And, we had joined y'all's company, but the next day we were up. And so I'm going to say, if you'll let wait till a week before we get the agenda, maybe I can talk to you, but that's because I'm Yeah. The agenda is we were we were appearing that their house is pretty lame, so it's hard. And it's hard to you know, anybody who's hosting has to play in a house. Also, the street comes in. Just the street. Like, holiday party at the, Bailey house Unless unless, yeah, unless But we don't have
to listen to we don't have to entertain public comments or see pretense. Is this Yeah. The application or That's the COW. They were thrilled to listen to to say that. We can And, Star, we have a horny I don't know what you're saying. It's just working. Okay. Okay. Shit that one. I don't I don't know from a record, our chair is choking. Yes. We don't like that.
I'm kidding. If anybody's on video, you can see that he's smiling and laughing. Yes. That's ironic. Alright. So we'll let's everybody hold the evening. Pay all host that we maybe had an efficient meeting, and I'll do my best to get I'll be ready for a motion switch. Sure. So second second, I'll Thanksgiving. It won't have the street. Sure.