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could go back to city space, but that is so I know. There wasn't even a >> Maybe I didn't get that. just go with our our normal preamble. >> All right, y'all. Ready? >> The the alternate preamble given our

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>> I think I think I'm just going to go with our normal. All right. Good evening. Uh welcome to this regular monthly meeting of the Charlottesville Board of Architectural Review. staff will introduce each item followed by the

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applicant's presentation which should not exceed 10 minutes. Uh the chair will then ask for questions from the public followed by questions from the BA. After questions are closed, the chair will ask for comments from the public. For each application, members of the public are allowed three minutes to ask questions

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and three minutes to offer comments. Speakers shall identify themselves and comment should be limited to the BA's perview that is regarding only the exterior aspects of a project. Uh following the B's discussion and prior to taking action, the applicant will

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have up to three minutes to respond. All righty. Uh I want to introduce our new member, Jen Trumpeter. Uh she is a landscape architect. Hi, Jen. >> Welcome to our Mary band. Uh >> thank you. Happy to be here. >> Say anything. You're welcome to.

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>> Sure. Um entroper. I am a landscape architect. >> I am a landscape there. can hear me now. I'm a landscape architect. I've been uh I'm a UVA grad. I've been practicing I've been living in Charlottesville for

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longer than I want to say. No, I've been practicing in Charlottesville. I've practiced at a number of firms here in town. I went out on my own about 10 years ago, maybe longer. Have had my own practice for a few years. Um no, less

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than that. Um I am excited to be here. I I will be honest, I haven't done a lot of work in Charlottesville, so I'm counting on you all and and you all to help educate me and um I am excited to take part.

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>> Awesome. Well, thank you very much for joining us and um we're looking forward to working with you and and your landscape architecture expertise. So um our first uh agenda item is matters from the public not on the agenda or on the

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consent agenda >> before you move forward. I I don't um I don't know the the level of of uh folks who will show up and or be online and wish to speak. um if you wanted to um

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because it has been an unusual amount u uh but if you wanted to um alter the questions and comments uh now is your opportunity to do that and um I think Kate

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came yeah so I said it's not um it's entirely your call but otherwise you will then be Uh uh >> subject to the three >> two times three minutes. Yeah. >> What's the B feel? We don't have that

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many people in the room at least right now. >> How many people do we have online? Anybody? >> There are three guests online. >> Okay. >> I think that they would be here already. It's going to be a crowd. >> I agree. >> Yeah. >> I think we just Thank you, Jeff, for the reminder. I appreciate that. But I think

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we'll just stick to our normal routine. Um, anybody any matters from the public online? >> No hands raised. >> Okay. Anyone here? Okay. Uh, next item is the consent

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agenda. The only thing on the consent agenda are the meeting minutes from St. Patrick's Day. Uh, does anyone have any comments on the meeting minutes? >> Move to approve as as submitted. Second. >> All in favor? I

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>> I >> All right. Jen wasn't here, so she'll abstain. I'll >> Great. Um, thank you. Uh, there are no deferred items, so we'll go straight to new items. Our first item is or application is a

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certificate of appropriateness application for 601 to 617 East Market Street. um installation of an entry gate and we'll have staff report and then the applicant can give us a little presentation.

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Um okay. Yeah. This is a um a COA request uh the installation of a gate at uh an an existing masonry opening in the Mickey building. Uh this building was

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constructed in 1900. Uh it's a two-story brick building and uh it was built for the Mickey Company which at the time was and for some time was one of the largest um printers of of legal books and u uh case

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studies uh in the south and the there have been you all have the BR's looked at this a couple times uh at least in recent memory but um going back through our old files And uh noticed

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that quite a lot of changes to this building. Uh yeah, as you see here that can I am I shooting somebody in the eye? >> Only a green pointer works on the screens. Sorry.

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>> Oh, it won't show up on screen. Okay. But as you can see that the the photos on the left are from 1925. Um, looks like the same day just uh the blinds are up and the blinds are down. And uh

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in the in the late 80s there were some alterations approved. Not everything was realized. Uh but primarily you saw a lot of changes to the um window and door openings and not

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just on this south elevation but wrapping around the corner and um one of the interesting pictures and I don't think I included it was that the where the pavilion is now and that landscape space uh used to be a parking lot. So

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it's uh uh you always you forget what something was. I was pulled over once in that parking lot for going the wrong way on Market Street. >> Okay. Yeah. And um so this addition to what we're looking at is in the

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elevation on the bottom right. Uh this is an opening that had originally been a window um and in 2007 was uh modified as a doorway. Uh the door uh opening itself was not installed. Um, so the remnants

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that I see on the wall, I think, uh, probably evidence just from the window that was there. Uh, and then they have when you go into this opening, there are there's a door into a

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business. Uh, there's two double doors on either side, but those are fixed. It's um, so this is, you know, the entry is there. You see that wood door. So the intent is to uh create a secure opening

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to close off that vestibule and the the drawing it it sort of difficult to show something uh transparent but the uh because the this is access to an office space. the code

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official was requiring um you can see some of the the the egress u panel uh and when I think the best image for this when I looked at the photos of some nearby gates I understood it made a lot

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more sense to me and there I know they're in the staff report um the not those it was the >> oh yeah I didn't include >> oh didn't so but I think they are in the application so yeah And so

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the question uh I think that said in the context of those images uh it this drawing makes a lot more sense to me and staff is recommending approval. I did also ask the applicant uh you know the

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possibility of doing a I know because we had discussed it at the the court's office building um maybe something like a full piece of glass uh but those are just ideas. What you see on the left has been done elsewhere. We've

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approved gates uh nearby. Um so again like I recommend approval. Um, >> I know Candace is here to represent uh the applicant and or she is the applicant and the designer. Uh, do you have any questions for me?

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Candace, would you like to come up and >> Good evening. I'm Candace Smith. I'm an architect. My office is at 2026 Street Northeast, just around the bend from this building. Um the proposed metal gate installation is really aims to minimize the alterations to the existing

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structure. Um the arch transom that completes that closure security closure is a glass transom and avoids altering the existing opening shape and other gates in the surrounding area were referenced to ensure the proposal fit within the context of the building and

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East Market Street more broadly. >> Okay. Thank you. Uh, do we have any questions from the public? Anybody online? >> Okay. Questions from the board?

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>> I have one. I think I know the answer, but I'll ask it anyway. Will the Babar sconces on each side of this proposed gate remain? >> They will. >> Thank you. >> Yes. In fact, the only other external addition is this little thing on the

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left that's a NOX a box >> for emergency personnel access, but it sort of balances the fire hydrant >> framed thing on the right anyway that is existing. >> That's why I included in my staff report the sentence, the design identifies the

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gate as non-historic while contributing to the contemporary eclectic elements that have been added over the years to this historic building. So, good catch. I think the Babar lights are almost historic at this point, aren't they? I think they've been there at least 30 years. >> Yeah. Since the early 90s.

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>> Yeah. >> Is the primary purpose of this gate security? >> Yes. And it'll just be closed at night. It'll be open during the day. Lay back against the opening and allow normal access to the business. >> Swing in.

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>> Uh do you do you need the uh dark panel there? I noticed some other examples at the Montichello Hotel and so forth where the gates are more open and seem >> Yeah, I think I'll show you those two examples that are in the Can you get to those? >> I I saw those.

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>> And the reason for those is >> Did you want me to >> do you mind? >> Yeah. Well, those two big black panel things there. One is at the Mickey building and one is uh on Main Street. >> There's a note that the interior just a lever. The gate is secured with a key on

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the outside for getting in, a key pad, and on the inside, it has to be able to be just pull the lever and escape, >> right? >> And so if we don't put a security panel of some kind, you can reach over and just lift it open and open the gate. So

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other more exotic shapes were added to other places, but we thought that square panel with an applied molding of a steel uh bar sort of went along with the rest of the >> rectang rectangular images from those

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other windows and openings. Right. And I'll also say I suspect that uh at least at the um the tavern um the Montichello Hotel had it gotten the code um because that was the first question when Kenneth

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talked uh asked me. I I went and talked to the code official. So I assume you probably should have something on that. So that's the difference. >> Yeah, we we we talked to them and confirmed their gate could swing in even though the egress door swings out, >> right? So,

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>> I'm just curious about the glass panel. I'm assuming it's glass. It's not some kind of synthetic or >> just clear glass tempered and um maybe the address on it so people can identify. There's two actually two businesses that go in and out that door currently. >> So, >> and you need the that for security and

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everything. >> Yeah, it would be take a big effort to climb over but it's possible. So, >> and I guess the the sort of the the door and then that panel and the frame, it's all one piece. Um, >> the the transom and the frame are

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anchored to the building and the gate then is set on hinges >> and opens. >> Did you say it would swing inward when it's open? Yes. >> And it would block one of the doors. >> Those are fixed doors. They're not They're not They have desks and things up against them. They're not They don't have handles. They don't open. So, it's

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really just one door directly ahead. >> Does the gate also swing out or just in? >> The gate just swings in. >> For fire reasons. >> Well, she said they already talked. >> Yeah, Chuck said it was fine. >> If you have a >> limited number of people, you can swing

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in. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Okay. >> And they also have back exits through their businesses up and out of the building. Yeah, >> there's something about applied decorative sticking. Can you >> That's just on the black metal panel. So, it's just using a picket to make a

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square like as though it was a raised panel. So, it's just an applied half inch square that's will be black like the others. It'll be more a textural thing than a visible sign. Uh, and then I wondered about the the

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powder coated black mild steel if that was consistent with the with the other steel uh elements that you have even Yeah, it looks like the light fixtures are quarten or weathering steel. >> They actually are weathered copper. They

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were installed in the early 90s. >> Okay. So, I was just curious if the powder coating would be consistent with even even at one picture there's there's a metal, you know, the sign is hanging from a what looks like a dark that is

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black. >> Yeah. But actually, there's two signs on arms for the two businesses, an architect's office and the Heartpine Company. >> Yeah. I just I just think just ensuring that you're not adding another >> right. It's about same color and metal as those those two existing armed signs.

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>> Okay. >> Any other questions? Any comments from the public? >> No one. >> Any comments from the board? >> I'd like to make a motion. >> Please go ahead. >> Okay. Having considered the standards set forth with within city code, including the ADC district design

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guidelines, I move to find the proposed entry gate at 609 East Market Street satisfies the B's criteria, is compatible with this property and other properties in this ADC district, and that the BA approves the application as submitted. >> Second. >> All righty. Um, Mr. Schwarz, yes. Uh,

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Mr. Bailey, >> yes. >> Mr. Burrow, >> yes. >> Miss Lewis, >> hi. >> Mr. Tener, >> yes. >> Mr. Tav, >> yes. >> Mr. Rosenthal, >> yes. >> Mr. Trumpeter. >> Yes. >> I vote yes. >> Thank you very much. Good >> luck with your gate.

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>> It's nice to nice to go nine and 90. Yeah. >> Thank you, Paul. Um All righty. Next item is uh 1410 Grady Avenue certificate of appropriateness

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application for window replacements. And this is u, you know, one of our our favorite types of projects, a non-contributing building, non-historic windows, non-original. Um, and uh, so

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hopefully I I mean, the approach I've taken is reasonable. Um, so this is, um, an apartment building on Gradia Avenue, uh, constructed in 1952. Um, I have a special place in this building. My that

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apartment on the second floor on the right hand side. Uh, in grad school, my daughter got very upset because we didn't my friend there didn't give her jell-o in a fancy jar. Just just gave it to her in a bowl. So, my three-year-old

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took umbrage with that. So, yeah, this strong feelings about this building. Um, yeah. So anyway, 1952, this is in the Rugby Road, University Circle Venable ADC district. Um, it's,

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as I said, the windows are not original. They are replacement windows. I'm not sure what if what the exterior even was on this. Um, and you saw in the front there, uh, the

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the two large trees that used to be there, they were removed. uh uh they were structurally damaging uh the building but uh some oaks have been planted to replace them. Just saw that the other day. Just want to note that the um so the the challenge on this one

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is that the recommend or the the applicant is requesting the use of a uh vinyl window um which we our guidelines discourage. They don't uh preclude but they discourage. Um, and I was curious

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more about the alignment of the of the sash and if it would um, so really just playing around to give me a rough idea. U, and then looking at some buildings nearby where they're, you know, the double hung windows with that are wider

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than they are high. So, um, I this was more a satisfying curiosity for myself. Um, so I think the double hung uh do work. Uh, the color is fine. I am not an expert on vinyl windows, but

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I know things have uh improved uh with time. But I think given the the intent here and given the aesthetic result um I'm comfortable uh recommending approval and uh but it is

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it does raise a question that I think we need to talk about it moving forward is uh and certainly later tonight we'll be looking at another project that has final windows. Um you know what are some of the decision points uh that you we'd want to look at? What would where does a

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vinyl window um cross the line to being a preferred product? And it the the idea is, you know, Carl and I had some back and forth about this is you could go with a window that meets all our criteria, but it could be a a

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poorly constructed builder grade window. So, you know, that it's possible uh vinyl windows in some circumstances might be preferable. So, but um again in this circumstance um I've recommended approval. I think uh Cassie is here to

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to if if you all have any questions for them. Uh but do you have any questions for me? >> Did is there somewhere in the staff report to mention the color? >> It's a like a bronze on the exterior >> similar to what's there now? Like a dark bronze. >> Okay. >> And what's the light division that

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they're um >> It's their sliders right now just side by side >> right now. What? They're replacing it with a double home. Double. Is it going to have divided lights or is it >> No, it's a single one over one. >> And is this to replace all the windows in the building or was it just I noted

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some apartments were noted. So, was it >> there was it's a question about that, but it is to replace all of the windows. >> I went by the other day and I I didn't take a picture, but because I was driving and I thought there were some double hung windows. >> It's possible on

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any existing >> I think on some of these smaller what I I believe >> on second story >> windows yes >> I'd ask the question well >> Jeff what what has been the objection in

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general to to the vinyl and why you suggest an alternative >> it's been in the guidelines for some time um and the guidelines haven't you know particularly on that have it changed. Um, if this were work on a

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historic building, uh, it'd be a different uh, response to it. Um, but, uh, I think the objective or I'm sorry, the objection uh, previously just been the the quality of

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the material. uh you know, vinyl windows at that time were a sort of a builder grade product and uh just not appropriate for within a historic district. But I I think there are products have gotten better and um again

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this is a non-historic building, non-historic windows u and you all have okay vinyl windows in some uh circumstances recently. So let's let's um >> yep. online. Sorry. If the applicant

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would like to speak to this project, please feel free. >> Hi. Um I am Casaya. I will be representing Wood Properties in this for this project. Um so for this initial phase, we will be doing 36 of the um

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windows, the 36 existing aluminum windows throughout the building. Uh throughout the next three years until 2029, we do expect all full window replacement of all 130 of the windows. Um, a few of those are double hunk

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already. They are aluminum. There are the ones that's in the bathroom. All the other existing uh windows are the sliders. Um, the proposed replacement of the units consists of the bronze vinyl double hung windows that are

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consistent with the surrounding neighborhood's architectural context. Um, and also ensuring u minimal visual impact with a cohesive refined exterior appearance. Um, we more so want to use uh vinyl rather

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than higher cost materials. It's a deliberate and valuedriven decision that only not only reduces upfront and long-term maintenance expenses, but also allows us to help attainable rent levels for residents while reinvesting those savings into meaningful sustainable

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upgrades within the building's interior. ultimately enhancing both both affordability and overall quality of living. >> Awesome. Thank you. Uh, anybody have any questions? I guess we'll go questions from the public

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first. >> No raised hands. Thanks. >> Nobody in the room. Any questions from B for the applicant? >> I have one. Um are is the is the um

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interest in replacing them have to do with any problems operating the windows at this point? >> Um no to the operation more so we've been having a lot of concerns with tenants with ongoing condensation buildup thermal bridging and water

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intrusion >> worse. >> Okay. Yeah. >> And I know there's I guess folks have said the aluminum windows aren't the original windows. Does any do you or anyone have any idea when the aluminum windows were installed?

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>> I'm just curious. >> Um we're guessing a little after 1952. We don't have an exact date though. >> Oh, okay. >> That would suggest they might be original. >> The building is 1952, >> right?

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But It was just a curiosity. Um, any any comments from the public online or here? No comments from the board. You know, I've got comments. Go ahead.

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Go on. Um, so I guess my concern is um I feel like when we approve a vinyl window, we need to have some sort of proof that it's a quality vinyl window. Um, there's no looking at the marketing materials for this, there wasn't

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anything in there that told me that it's really it's gonna that's commercial quality that's going to last for multif family um, apartments. Um, I found the the warranty online and the warranty explicitly excludes commercial properties or anything that's not um,

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owner occupied. Um, so that right there makes me want you to pick a different vinyl window and then prove to us why we should accept that vinyl window. I mean, I I'm okay with vinyl as long as I have some sort of reassurance that it's it's quality, that it's going to last and

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that it's not going to fall apart. Um, so yeah, I guess that's where I don't feel like we have enough information right now. I don't have enough information to approve this. Um, and I feel like I know the building is not contributing, but if it was new construction, I think I would say the

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exact same thing. So, just because it's a, you know, it's kind of a non-contributing and frankly kind of ugly building, I don't think it means that we can just let them do whatever they want to it. >> The cut, >> I hate to be harsh, but >> yeah, the cut sheets did look like they

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were first single family residential >> owner occupied that that picture on the front. I mean, there's a lot of marketing in there about the energy savings, which is great. I totally 100% want you guys to get energy efficient windows. Um, but I mean, it's there's two pages on the glass and like one page

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on the window itself, which is I' I' I'd like to see some reassurance that it actually is a quality product. >> Okay. >> But if you guys want to vote yes, that's just where I'm standing right now. >> Sure.

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Any other >> I had a different I had a different um thing that I just wanted to mention which I had raised in an email. We're changing the profile of the aperture from um side by side to double hung. And

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in in my opinion the sidebyside windows which sliders which look like casement I was mistaken about them. They're not a character-defining feature of the building, but I just want to note that if I felt like those

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windows were that I wouldn't want to replace them with a different profile. Um, but I don't I don't think that the change impacts the building at all. Um, I also would note that 1952,

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we have we have properties in the city that have been designated on our IP list that are much newer than 1952. So, saying that this building is not historical, we may not find it interesting or 100 years old, but it

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certainly is is an old building. Um, so anyway, just know that that was a footnote at the end, but um, but I just wanted to note that I, you know, we haven't talked about the pro profile the windows changing and I think if it were a different type of window, a more

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unique window and character defining and defined the facades of this, we would be discussing that now. So, but I support it. Um, except for the concerns raised by Mr. shorts.

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>> I do feel like the fact that it's a non-contributing building kind of lets me back off um a bit, but at the same time uh since typically we don't allow vinyl windows per our guidelines, there kind of needs to be like a good reason to do so. And

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that's sort of in step with Carl's thoughts of something quality just really to ensure just the integrity of the neighborhood that you know by the time you're halfway through replacing them they don't start falling apart before you even finish the job right. Um but in the same breath I was ready to

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approve this. So, I don't know if um what I guess let me ask the applicant. What are your thoughts about doing some research on possibly a a product that's that's still affordable but maybe is a little higher level quality that for

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example has a warranty that applies to commercial buildings? I mean, that might be something y'all would be interested in regardless. >> Yeah, we can u we can definitely do some more research. I will say for the ones that we did price out um it's not the series 100 which is like the lowest

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grade we did upgrade from to a more uh premium style series. So the series 200 is a little bit better. >> Yeah. Well I think you know to Carl's point if it's you know if the warranty doesn't cover commercial uh uh properties you know if something happens

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and it gets damaged then it there's no warranty just for your own awareness. Uh, so I mean there's a couple different ways we could do this. We can go ahead and make a motion and take a vote. Uh, or the

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applicant can request a deferral or we can defer it. Um, any thoughts? >> Are there people who would want to approve it tonight? >> I would. >> I think I would. >> I think I would too. >> You guys probably want to take a vote. >> Yeah.

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>> Draw a poll um to hear a motion from someone. >> I have one. Okay. >> Having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including the ADC district design guidelines, I move to find the proposed window replacements at 1410 Grady Avenue

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satisfy the B's criteria and are compatible with this property and other properties in the ATC district and that the BAR approves the COA as submitted. >> Second. All right, we'll take a vote.

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Uh, Mr. Schwarz. No, >> Mr. Bailey. >> Yes, >> Mr. Burl. >> I >> Miss Lewis. >> I >> Mr. Timberman. >> Yes, >> Miss Tabony. >> Yes, >> Mr. Rosenthal. >> No, >> Miss Trumpeter. >> Yes.

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>> I'm going to vote yes. So, seven to two. >> All right. Good luck with your windows. Um, >> thank you. >> And hope it all works out. Thank you. >> Have a good evening. You >> Thank you.

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All righty. Um, our next certificate of appropriateness application is for 835843 847 West Main Street. Um, we've looked at this most recently last month and

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then uh back in was it August? Um, so this is a multi-story housing development on West Main. Um >> I wish we had a an interesting name to use for it or but um 835 843 847 we'll

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just have to get okay with that rolling off the tongue. Um the I thought about LV Collective but that's the developer and maybe doing things elsewhere. So, um the but this is yeah a project uh COA request for a a new multi-story uh

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apartment building on what is currently a vacant lot and um has uh for some time been it's a three parcel lot but for many decades has been used as surface

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parking. Um, and there's a small uh singlestory building on the site. The This had been a um um and I don't know the date of the residence or when it was um an old house

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uh and and property uh by the 19th century. And uh but uh you all have reviewed this um

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twice before uh last August you had a u preapp conference on this and then in May so last month uh we continued that preop preapp conference with a preliminary discussion about um some

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additional details and at that time the applicant had um reduced the height of the building. It had originally been 11 stories on four sides um and shifted to the west. Uh this uh version and this

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nothing has changed uh in the elevations just uh from what you saw, but it is now eight stories on uh the front facing West Main and it steps down to six stories at the rear uh which is adjacent

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to the West Haven neighborhood. the um there's an awful lot in this staff report. Um I won't go through all of it. Um I think uh just hit on

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some of the highlights of it. I think from a um relative to design guidelines as a function of um height, massing, scale, the spatial elements um this building certainly uh meets the

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criteria. Um material-wise, uh I know there's questions about the cement board, uh but these are it does employ materials which you all have um approved before. Um

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the windows are proposed as vinyl and there is not a specific specification on it. Um I'd offer to the applicant that uh that something that tonight um they would have to address

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satisfactorily uh if we didn't have uh information ahead of time. Um they did provide um a lot of discussion. The last meeting was about building sections and some of the details at the brick and the transitions and the the recessing of the

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windows etc. And they've provided information which responds to that. Um the you all requested a sun shade analysis which u they provided u an analysis. I'm

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not qualified to say whether this is sufficient for what um you all need and uh but one has been provided and um the last comment I had here about um sort of the design overall was uh one of the

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questions that you had raised and this is why it's good to have this um this view here is as has been for some time a focus of this project is that transition to the West Haven neighborhood where um now the rear of the new building has the there's

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it's set back further from a property I think you know 30 to 40 ft so there's space there it's the question of what's going on in that space and uh one of the questions that was raised uh in May is that uh you know a preference for larger

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trees a visual buffer uh that's appropriate for that spot and uh in fact uh Jen and I were talking before the meeting and I said that there's you know that's a you know what's the right thing there. Is it trees? Is it a hedge? Is it

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you know plantings? Is it you know um and it's in your purview to to to take a good hard look at that. So to me that's one of the last or one of the big question marks and I know that that was a particular concern of of the folks in

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West Haven as well. the um I laid out and I'll jump back to those other thing but I laid out in my recommendation um I know I I have recommended approval uh with conditions uh that are noted Miss Trumpeter mentioned something to me earlier

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tonight that she can raise that I think is worth considering um the but if you're going to I I feel like there's There's information here that allow you to to make a decision whether that's to

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approve or to deny, it's there. Um, but if you all if there's something additional and this is if if it isn't presented in the discussion or is something additional that you want to see or hear, um, I would ask that that

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that be sort of approach that with a mind of this is information that would allow approval of the project. Um if if this is a project that's going nowhere as far as the CO is concerned, I I think it it it it's fair to say

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tonight to express that. Um we don't need to I don't I wouldn't want to go to a fourth meeting and then just and then say nah, you know. Um and that was some of the comments that you know happened with the the mark. We looked at an awful lot but

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then reached took us a while to reach a conclusion. So that's my recommendation is that um if you're going to defer this or suggest they defer it, then that is with the eye towards providing information that that that that will

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help with uh a decision. Um but if you're not happy with where this is, let's let's make that statement tonight. Now, you all do have um the ability as the B to defer this to next month. Um that's your call. You can do this. um

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that would just mean that uh they'd have to turn around any uh reapplication very quickly. So, but the bar if you vote to defer something, it's deferring it to the next meeting. So, deferring to the July meeting, the applicant requested a

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deferral, then it's um um at least by our procedures manual um they can defer it for up to 18 months. After that, it would have to be would have to become a new application. Um, I've touched on the

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memorial walk in here and I I don't I don't want to get into a discussion about it if not necessary, but um are there any questions about how I've characterized uh that in the staff report? Just to

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clarify on that, um, essentially we're we're ruling on the project that walkway connector as designed. >> That's right. >> And then if if I believe what I read was if that were to get community involvement and a design flushed out,

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staff would look at it and make a determination of whether it needs to come to us in the future. And the caveat there is kind of like it, yeah, when you get a community-led design, just be really careful about, you know, they've come up with something, do you then put it in front of the B for a yes

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or no? And and I can't calibrate that at this point, but um uh but that's the that's at least to plant that seed there that um >> I think I mean I think the way you laid it out was pretty clear. I think it's a good process in terms of it would go

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through staff review first which is pretty much everything comes through you guys first anyways and then you know you could also reach out to the chair and vice chair bounce ideas off us and we can help determine whether it needs to come to the full bar but >> I think the marching orders for tonight are

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>> what's in front of us looking at what's in front of us >> and I I you know I had a good conversation yesterday with with with uh one of the individuals associated with the community and Um, I it's a rather dry paragraph in here and

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I was worried that I'm I don't want to communicate that this matter doesn't matter. Um, but I'm trying to find it's a as dry as it is simply saying, you know, as a means to an end here. We

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don't have a design. We can't approve something with uh to be determined later. So, I needed a something that you all could either say this is okay or this is not okay. I very

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much hope that if this project is approved and moves forward that that that what's been shared with the neighborhood will be realized. Um, but I don't know how you all within your purview can

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compel that or require that. Um and um I think the at the very least what we can do is acknowledgement in the discussions that this has been raised that this has been promised. Um but you all can't go

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so far as to say I'm approving this only if this happens in the future. We we just you don't have the perview uh to do that. >> Correct. And that's what we talked about at the end of the last meeting as well or at the end of this um the

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pre-application conference for this project at last month's meeting. So I think we're sticking to that. Um, >> so I said there's a lot in here if you I know you have another question online or um >> I got a question for staff um in the I

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guess it's in the staff report but um there's like a letter in here from uh city of Charlottesville Inda Timman's group >> um from just I don't know 12 days ago uh that's talking about the the plan being

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denied and I just didn't some clarity on that would be helpful >> give it the best Um, and I say that on the non-planner, >> if you want me to. >> Yeah, we're we're we are planners, but in that we don't review site plan and

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development plans every day. Um, >> maybe an easier way to ask a question is does this bear on us or not? >> Development plans are either approved or denied. Right. So if there are any comments that need to be addressed whether it's zoning related um in previous development plans there were

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like engineering comments if there are any revisions required comments that need to be addressed then the plan is simply denied. >> Got it. But for example you check box check them all >> is on a timeline basis they resubmit. >> An approval of a development plan

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requires a COA. Now, that's something that Kate and I are still wrapping our heads around how exactly to make that happen. >> This is a little carton horse because, you know, some of the requirements or some of the reasons for denial

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really impact us like uh green space, tree requirements, tree canopy, like >> Amen. Um, and uh this is a yes, it's a bit of a cordian, not cart before the horse. Let's pick a pick a

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metaphor. Um because I I I I would even go so far as to say >> page 91, >> you know, than simply state on the development plan this I I must get a COA for this. So the circumstances with it are um and and and what we're saying is

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that with a site plan ultimately you need a site plan to build you look below grade. So, like honor, let's say there's a, you know, a giant lake 50 ft underneath this property. You know, oh my gosh, we can't build there. There's a giant lake there. You know,

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without looking below grade, the development plan doesn't identify that. It's more of a a two-dimensional view looking down. So the risk to the developer and the applicant is that if

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you all approve a design and then that becomes part of that approved development plan, they move forward with the site plan and find that giant lake uh and can't build what was approved. They have to come back. So there is a so

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it's a it's at their risk um that they are um assuming that they can that what's shown on that development plan and approved by the COA can be transferred successfully to a an approvable site plan and if not then we

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see them again um with a revised design. Does that make sense? Not trying to sound catty about it, but yeah, it's kind of as simple as it comes down to. So, this is on um on the applicant. >> Okay. >> I wanted to uh just ask a question on

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the memory walk if we could go back to the contextual plan that was up just for um clarification for us and for the members of the public. there on this contextual plan there is no area designated as memory walk but I believe

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it's item one which is the pedestrian walk and the vehicular alley I think that's how it's described vehicular drive aisle and pedestrian prominade are we that's that's what is collectively called the memory walk that we're

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>> well the it will the intent and um I also shared an email with you all today uh from um Emily Drifus who raised some questions and if you want to address those you can uh discuss them but the the the memory walk exists as an

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aspirational >> right >> idea. I'm just asking where what it what it is and what we're asked not to look at it >> except as it's presented. What what are we >> we're looking at the vehicular driveway? That's all it is. >> All it is there's a sidewalk

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>> because it's not it's not labeled as memory walk on the textual plan. So for members of the public trying to make a connection about what the memory walk means, I'm pointing out that it's number one on that. Thank you very much. >> Yeah. And that was the space that was identified as uh available for that.

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It's possible when whenever it occurs, it surrounds the building. Uh so it's a you know, we're also not limiting uh what the community may come up with. And yes, it's a sidewalk on the side, a driveway in and out of the parking

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garage, and then where the number one is there, that's a continuation of a a semi-p permeable pave surface, which allows vehicular traffic to the cell tower site number five on the east side. So that's so that's what it will as

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currently designed and as you're looking at, that's what it will accomplish. cars in and out of the drive garage. Uh a a path for occasional trucks to the tower site and a sidewalk along the west

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boundary. >> Any other questions for staff? >> Is the the tower is going to stay? >> Tower's on a separate parcel. Yeah, it's um I imagine that the owner of that is quite happy with uh uh how it's being

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used. >> Okay. Uh I just want to take a moment to compliment staff on the excellent staff report. Thank you guys. >> Thank you. >> Um let's go to our applicant. Would you guys like to come present, please?

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>> Hey Sorry. Hopefully everybody can hear me a little better tonight. I actually have a voice. So, I'm back. >> Glad you're feeling better. Um, I'll just really kick us off here, but most of the presentation will be from from Muhammad since we're going to really focus on the details and the the

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architecture. But I just wanted to take a second to again say say thank you um for the feedback and to acknowledge that we spent a lot of time trying to make sure that we responded to each and every single one. And I know some of those will be done here in the meeting with

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physical samples. Um figured that was a little easier than than the email back and forth. Um we've made some pretty big changes. Um one of them being wrapping the brick around the north and the west facade. I thought it was a great

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suggestion, an appropriate one. So we went ahead and and did that. But majority of what we've done is a commitment to the details that the rendering suggest. so that really we show that we are committed to actually

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providing the details, but also to make Jeff's job a little easier during the site plan um process so that everybody's really clear on what it is that we are are proposing. Um before I kick it over to Muhammad, I know Jeff mentioned the

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possibility of a deferral. I do want to go on record and say that it is our desire to hopefully get to a vote today. no matter what that vote is, we are very hopeful for a vote. And then maybe just touching on the the memory walk, I want to publicly state that it is still LB's

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collective um intent to follow the process that's being discussed here today and um that what was discussed at last meeting in terms of having a productive community dialogue and following their lead in terms of how that memory walk is designed. Thank you.

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>> Good evening. Thank you all for having us. I'm Muhammad Wilson, architect with Niles Bolt. >> Um I'm going to kind of pick up from where we left last time. We got some great feedback. I think the direction uh that we had presented uh in our uh meeting in May was received well in

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general in terms of the the adjustments that we've made since our meeting from August of 25. Uh we've shown the renderings, we've shown the depth, we've shown the massing. Uh we did get questions uh or uh were asked for a

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little bit more information related to how is that depth 3 really going to translate into the two-dimensional elevations and the plans and all of that. And so what we've done uh working with with staff um is we've went back to the elevations and looked at all these

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uh renderings that we've done with the corbling and the brick and the depth that was presented and identified uh five key wall sections around the perimeter uh that have these uh changing conditions from uh from the corbilling to overhang of building entry the garage

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main lobby and we've kind of identified those here where you see the red dots these are kind of the wall sections So, we've got three of them along west main uh given there was a lot of transitions that took place along that frontage. Uh we've got one uh through the parking entry there on the west facade. Uh and

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then we've got another one along the east uh facade where we have the uh parking uh at the ground and then uh the uh change of planes that are occurring further up with the residential uh levels.

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And these um go to the next slide. Here we go. Uh and so these are these are the five sections that we've identified. And you can see we've kind of enlarged a couple of them uh that I'll run through in the following slides. So that really starts

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to kind of show uh the renderings, showed the design intent, what we were what we were uh uh considering from massing and transition and you know layering layering of materials. And here we've kind of taken a step further with these wall sections to really understand

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constructibility one uh but also like you know where do where do we kind of start identify these dimensional changes and the depth that has been presented and so the next few slides uh kind of are zoomins on uh just in large details

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in a couple of areas uh from those wall sections uh on the screen now you're seeing you're seeing the brick corbling that's happening along west main and as it wraps the corner on the west facade uh fronting the the standard building. Uh this is the condition at the

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amenities along West Main and also at the front door of the lobby. Uh these here are a couple other conditions where we've got overhangs on the elevated level. So a couple of set conditions. The bottom right is the set condition kind of above that uh that parking level

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that that's uh fronting the east side and then a couple of parapit conditions further up in the building. So, these are all coming from the wall sections and enlarged and dimensioned to give us a little more clarity on exactly what's being proposed. And here's a couple other uh uh parapit uh conditions that

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we're uh illustrating here. Uh plan transitions. These are enlarged floor plan details um showing um how we transition from you know outside corner transition where we have fiber cement panel brick transitions at the corner

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transition transitions from brick to fiber cement. So just kind of giving us a little bit more information on that depth. Um this is the um the west facade the ground level where we talked about a lot of the the service rooms. There was

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some concerns about how are we going to address this area. It is where we have the celebrated or the memory memory walk uh and the connection yet we had a lot of utilities located in this area. Part of it is just the the challenging access that we have on this development.

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There's really very few areas we can get these vehicles and uh get get access to the utilities and services that are necessary. But we've kind of really pushed the, you know, pushed the design a little bit further here and kind of we're illustrating between brick texturing, uh, a little bit of coral

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corbling, the brick pileers that you're seeing it to start to really kind of give it a strong character even though it's not necessarily a transparent use. Um, so these are solid doors, solid brick. You can't really see through the wall. And then the on the right side there again there's a little profile

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that shows uh how we're stepping and just kind of that dimen dimensional change in plane. And then this is a a vignette. Uh the colors here are not necessarily what we're after. Uh but it kind of shows that back that northwest

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corner. Uh that the the beginning of the memory lane coming from West Haven. Uh we talked about uh Britney you talked about adding brick at the back of the development. That was a comment that we heard uh last month as well. Treat portions of that back as if it's it's

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also the front. Bring the the brick and the materiality and the change of massing to the back side of the building as well. And so we've done just that. And this is kind of looking at that northwest corner uh where you see all the brick detailing coming together along along the memory walk. And then

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further up at that corner, uh we talked a little bit about windows last week and so uh we um we are proposing vinyl windows. We discussed that it was earlier discussion about vinyl windows. I do have a sample that

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I'll pass around here. Uh vinyl windows have come a long way. They're they're very efficient. uh they're thermally broken. So they do contribute to the sustainability and energy efficiency of the building. Uh they you know the manufacturing and the you know the

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process now allows for us to have a lot of colors. We're proposing black uh uh vinyl windows uh along the the the perimeter of the building. Um we had talked about the depth. I know with vinyl windows the frame does need to

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come fairly close or you know flush if not project slightly beyond the the fiber cement panel. Um and that's the detail that we need so that we can caul around the per perimeter and provide a proper seal. However, we are, you know, with the with the manufacturer that

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we're looking uh looking at or similar manufacturers, some of them do have the ability to provide that deep back set, which is the frame that we have at the top there where the frame does stay fairly flush with the exterior, but the glazing and the and and the sash, the

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window itself gets pushed in to provide some additional depth. So typical frame would kind of put the frame right at the edge and put the glaze the glazing right at the face. So the whole thing feels fairly flat with with profiles like this. We're able to get the glass pushed

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in so we can get a deeper shadow line within the window frame itself. So it really kind of help you know provide that depth. We are proposing that on the west main facade and the west uh elevation where we have the memory uh walk knowing that that's where the

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building is going to be experience from close proximity people walking right right under those elevated levels where the vinyl windows are proposed along the east and the and the uh and the north sides. We are proposing to stick to the

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uh original frame which is the one at the bottom there. So we've got a couple of details here showing that window profile in brick showing in fiber cement and kind of the range of depth that we're able to achieve with that deep back set uh profile. Uh this is these are some these are some

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images from uh the manufacturer that we are looking at as basis of design. You can you can it's hard to tell that that's a vinyl window. It really looks like a a metal frame from an aesthetic standpoint. I mean they've come a long way in terms of being able to provide uh

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it used to have a lot of curves and bends in these in in in the fabrication process but with the with the uh more uh uh uh with the higherend products they're now able to get these profiles that are fairly rectangular and they almost look exactly like from a distance

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almost exactly like uh like a aluminum windows. Uh one uh the storefront we've got the details here. I I I don't think we had uh we didn't hear concerns on this. We are keeping you know everything at the ground where we have the amenities where

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we have the uh the front lobbies and where we touch the ground. Uh we're using storefront. And then fiber cement is another one that we talked about uh last uh last month. Uh similar to the vinyl windows,

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you know, fiber cement has come a long way. We're looking at James Hardy as kind of the the the basis for design here. Uh big part of the perception of the of the fiber cement panel is typically, you know, where where you might see um the the the product looking

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like it's aging quickly. It typically ends up being around at the joints where you have the where you have the panelto panel conditions. Um we are proposing um uh we we are proposing the uh a reveal

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system easier trim reveal that's uh that's a heavier gauge uh and it's a lot it's a lot more durable than your typical kind of aluminum um hardware or the the reveals that you use uh with fiber cement installed. This is

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certainly far more superior. I'll pass these around so you can see the gauge that we're that we're looking at. Uh but also like compared to like a a batten installed that that tends to age quickly and then it's very hard to keep those joints straight. So with this product

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here, we can get a a much cleaner joint. Uh and that typically really is how the fiber cement is perceived. Uh these are a couple of example projects that actually uh LV collective uh developed. This is in in Columbus,

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Ohio. You can see all of the elevated uh panel there. That's fiber cement panel. And I I uh I believe that's using the easy trim reveal. Um this next one here is in Athens. This is one that actually

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uh uh I personally work worked on with with the LB Collective team and I I can say that that one does have the easy trim reveal that I'll pass around. This pro this project however did not have the deep set frame. Uh so this was the the typical vinyl window where you can

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kind of see in these photos the face of the glazing is fairly close to the exterior finish. Um so we're kind of proposing slightly different approach here as as I I mentioned. And then lastly this is the um uh solar uh uh

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solar study. Um we've kind of looked at it at four times uh during the year just to show how this building impacts the um the surrounding area. Um happy to answer any questions on that. Uh and then finally just the the

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materials that we're proposing. So with that said, um I'm happy to pass these around. This is the this is that black vinyl window that we're talking about. Fully it's thermally broken. Uh, I'll pass the uh the easy drill reveal. And

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I've got a couple of the Hardy fiber cement panels in here. Uh, I'll put them I'll put them in that box as well. They kind of click into the hardware. So, if you want to see how it all comes together. Um, maybe I'll start this one on. Can I test

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this? I'll start on this side. And then, of course, >> I'm sorry. And then I also have uh a couple of uh great samples here. Uh we haven't necessarily like zeroed in exactly on

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which products we're using, but you can see they're all kind of in the same range of colors. Uh so I'm happy to get as close as needed. I'm happy to take any questions and written a

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>> great thank you. Um we'll start with any questions from the public. Um let's see a few folks have come in and joined us. Thank you for joining us tonight. Um so we'll start with questions. Just I know some of you weren't here in the beginning. We are going to allow three minutes for

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questions from the public. We'll then allow three minute or then we'll allow questions from the BAR. Then we'll allow comments from the public and then comments from the BA. So just our typical procedure. Just want to remind everybody since we've had some folks join us. So again we'll start with

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questions from the public. Let's start online. Anybody Kate? >> No hands raised. >> Okay. Uh and anyone from the public here this evening would like to speak. Please come up to the podium, state your name and >> locality.

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>> Locality. You're not required to state your address anymore. I don't believe. >> My name's Emily Drafus and I'm here on behalf of Legally Justice Center. Could you please clarify? Are these questions for the developer or questions for the bar members? >> Uh you need to address your questions to

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us. >> Yes. But okay. Um well I sent an email yesterday that hopefully most of you have read. So uh one of the concerns which has a question is about asking their intentions for

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community um dialogue. There to my knowledge has been no attempted community dialogue since the last B meeting. I work closely with the public housing association of residents, so I think I would have heard if there had been some followup, but it's concerning

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that the last time they were here, they heard that you were going to approve and then the dialogue seems to have stopped. Um, so if you could ask their intentions and set up a timeline for check-ins, that's my question. I didn't phrase it

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like a question, but could you please do that? Um, uh, let's see. The perspective view that I requested from 806 Hardy Drive is something that I think you all would benefit from as

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well, understanding um, how things will look from the street level. The plan for the West Haven redevelopment will ultimately have um, tall buildings where it will be like window to window at the lower floors. So, it would be helpful if

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um we could get more information and I would like to ask if you could request that perspective view and not approve until you get that information. Um, I have lots of questions about the solar study, and you all probably know a lot

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more about solar studies than I do, but at a minimum, would you please ask them to do one that reflects 9:00 a.m., 3 p.m., and 6 p.m. in addition to the noon view because I think as the sun moves, it will change the shadow.

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Um lastly, and this may be the most impactful thing, um is the whether you could do more to ask them about greenery in the back. And um currently from the street view, I don't think most people will be able to even see the greenery if

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it's low. So it would need to be tall trees that could survive in the shadow of the building with a lot of shade. Um, and if you could please take the ideas, any ideas that you have and help ensure that

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um, large trees or perhaps a hedge or other attractive materials could soften the view for residents of West Haven who will be the most harmed folks obviously with this development. And I do also want to just say thank you for all that you did on the mark. I don't think I've

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been back to the podium since then, but we appreciated that. >> Thank you very much. All right, any other questions from the public? >> Okay. Uh questions from the bar? I had a

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couple and if you want to >> let's see um >> answer question. I'm happy to. >> Does that work? >> Yeah. >> Go ahead. So just a a quick a quick rattle down public engagement dialogue ask

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intentions which you did speak to before some folks came so you can repeat yourself there um the perspective view uh solar study and greenery in the back and I think some of these Muhammad will speak to maybe but go ahead.

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Yeah. Um my my choice would be not to kind of speak to it, but I will because there's a specific question. Um, multiple attempts were made via email and I can provide those emails for public record and I can provide phone

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calls to where contact was attempted um with all community members but and they were all copied but with a specific direction towards attending the West Haven planners meeting. Two attempts were made and both times the day of I

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was asked to attend virtually and then when I asked for the details of the virtual meeting I was no longer invited. >> The purpose of that West Haven planners meeting was to go through a lot of those questions. The intent um of the first

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one in my mind was to talk about the building overall, but I was told by the leader of that West Haven planner meeting um who is not on behalf of West Haven, it's CH. I was told that the purpose of the meeting was just for the

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ground level memory walk. And I said great, that's perfect. We can I was hopeful to come to this meeting with some dialogue on that between us and the community. Um, but like I said, two attempts in writing, follow-up calls. We

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had the discussion u with Mr. Sales with CR CH and hopefully you guys can understand why I did not want to get into that here. That's not the point of this meeting. But at the same time, if a question is asked, I'd like to respond to that. And I will go on public record

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and say again, our intent is to dialogue with the community. I hope the community's intent is to dialogue with us. >> Okay. Thank you. Um >> there were three other questions. >> Yeah, I guess well and

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>> so that answers the trees in the back. The So the trees in the back are a little tricky. We're happy to discuss that in detail right now and put on our plans what is controllable within our property line. I'm not evading that. If we just want to ignore the community dialogue and just put what you guys see

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fit, great. Let's do that. But the intent was it's a little fuzzy because the d the property line is right in the middle between our building and the six-story West Haven building. And some of the plans that I've seen from West Haven have improvements on our property

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line, >> which is okay. Like we're we're open to that. But how can I design landscaping without knowing like what's on our property line? We're happy to provide that. but without the opportunity to have that dialogue.

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>> Bit of a conundrum. Was there another question that I missed? I think that answers the back and >> study. It was good to take >> I will we did have four different times on the solar study, but I'll let Muhammad speak to that. >> We we do have uh it's different dates on

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the solar study. I'll put it back on the screen. Uh, and you know, obviously at noon is when the sun is is up high. Early in the morning it will be a little bit lower. Uh, in the afternoon will be a little bit lower. But you know, we

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kind of picked we picked one time in the day to kind of show how it would be at noon recognizing that that's probably when you're going to get the most sun because the sun is going to start dropping as it gets early in the morning, further in the afternoon. But

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that that was kind of four times in the year picking a noon time just to see how how it impacts the u the surrounding area. >> And I feel like um you do have some landscape plans with proposed plantings at the back of the property. Correct.

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>> We do. That is correct. And I can scroll through these quickly. >> It's um >> so >> page nine of the submitt. >> Yep. Uh so yeah, >> we did our representative landscape plans. It was a specific request from the community as a part of a negotiated

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community benefits agreement that has not been signed, but it is still our public intent to work towards that. Um, it was one of it was the community's request that we use Water Street Studios for the ground level um or just landscaping specifically on the memory

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walk and in between our two buildings. We committed to that. We continue to commit to that. However, we are happy to adjust these representative plannings however any one of you see fit. >> Okay. I mean, I think what we're going

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to do is when we get to our deliberation is go with what we were presented. >> Um because that's what we need to react to. So, >> we have a series of slides in in here in the package from pages Yeah. page seven all the way through uh 12 in your in

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your package that kind of has the trees, lighting, furniture as kind of a representation of what was proposed. And I think the only other thing to to really address really quick from a massing standpoint uh related to you know how the the building feels from a

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couple areas around around the site uh we do have a couple of these massing or just these studies that we've put together. Uh looking at the building from Hardy and 8 this is this is the view on the screen and then uh this page

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25 in your package. This is looking at it from 10th and page. There's a couple other views that are kind of further up looking back towards West Haven and then our building in the backdrop just from a a progression of scale and height. Um so

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those are in your package as well pages 23 through 24. >> Thank you. Um so we're still in questions from the bar period right now. Um I had a question. So, the two

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examples you showed us uh from Columbus, Ohio and Athens, Georgia, can you tell us when those were built? Like what year? >> Yes. The the Athens one uh completed uh two years ago. >> August was 25.

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>> So, 2024 delivery, August 2024 and then and August 2025. >> Okay. >> Or maybe a little sooner. May June May June deliver two to three years old tops. >> Yeah. Okay. I was asking just in terms of some of the questions or maybe about

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the fiber senate panel and just aging and things, but >> they're brand new. So, >> um uh do you also I think I read that the bricks are still are full thickness, right? The sample just for color. >> That's right. Yeah. >> Sorry.

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Um, and then on those the window depth sheet, which I had it pulled up before I scrolled, I saw some were >> I think it was plus or - 3 in to 4 in

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deep uh recessed and then the others were like plus or - 1 and 12 to three. So I was just curious that seems like a bigger range and I was curious if you could >> So that that's the Yeah, that's the two different options. So, we're kind of proposing a deeper inset for where the

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glazing is going to be located. That's the three and a half inches along Westmin and uh the memory walk. And then for the two other sides, we are proposing to go with a conventional vinyl window, which would then be the the the lower um the the reduced depth,

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the inch the inch and a half, I believe. >> Yeah, I guess that's what I was curious about. Right here, it says varies from inch and a half to three and a half. And that's, you know, a 2-in variance. I just didn't know if that does it depend on the exact location on the building or or is

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>> Yeah, I think the it's a little hard to see, but maybe let me zoom. So, like this one here, this this frame here, you can kind of see where the window itself where the glazing is going to be located right here. It's kind of pushed a good bit from the the outside face, the

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outside edge of the frame. And so, that would be the three and a half. And that would be proposed on the vinyl windows that are fronting west main and the ones that are fronting the memory wall. >> Right? >> And then the the lower end of the range

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would be let me zoom in on that one >> which would be this profile here. You can see the glazing is kind of sitting fairly close to the outside edge of the frame. Mhm. >> This would be this is proposed for those windows on the east side facing the rail

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and then on the side facing the the the north side facing the back. >> So that would be a shallower plane or depression from you know face of frame to face of glass. >> So the top image matches the two

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left-hand details and the bottom image is matches the two middle details I guess. >> Yeah. So they're really kind of drawn to to handle both in a way. It's just really saying from the face of the fiber cement to to the face of the glazing is going to be an inch and a half plus or

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minus uh you know where we have on the east side and the north side and it's going to be three and a half on the south and the west. >> Gotcha. And then so but they both both of the images say inch and 38 and maybe I'm

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confus inch and 38 is is actually the overhang of from the flange to the outside edge of the frame. This is yeah this is like the the outer from from where the flange is installed to the outside edge of the frame. It's really the same because the finish is the same.

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So this is sheathing and the fiber cement panel and then that frame extends out so that we can haul around the perimeter for a seal. So it's really not you know the inch and 38 is from the flange out as opposed to where the glass is sitting. >> Okay.

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>> Gotcha. Thank you. Um those are the questions I had for right now. Some might pop up but want to open up to the rest of our happy band. I have I have a number of landscape related questions, but I don't know if we want to like lump all those. >> Uh I think it makes sense to try and

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lump questions. I mean, we'll get into comments as well, but >> Yeah. So, do you want to do AR since you're sort of discussing architecture? >> Yeah, maybe. So, that's Thank you. Uh any other comments or questions on the windows? Let's do that's a good call. Thanks. >> I I Carl brought up on the previous one

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about the quality of these vinyl windows. Are these commercial windows and come with a warranty that will work in a commercial building? >> Absolutely. That you know this this

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sample here specifically is VPI is the is the window manufacturer that provides it and that's a commercial grade vinyl window. Um and you know we >> we our preference is to kind of keep keep it open. the specs are going to be

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calling out for these quality windows, but we would be looking to, you know, bid the job at some point and we want to be able to keep it open to other manufacturers. But that's the level of detail and quality that we'd be after and it would be a manufacturer that can provide that deeper frame so that we can

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insert the glass further in from the outside frame. >> And two things on the manufacturer. um that comment's going to come in from me because I've developed projects where you commit to it and then they go out of business or it's just not available due to lead times. So it's not that we are

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unwilling to commit and that's why we've tried to add the dimension here. We're very happy to commit to the dimensions. It's just trying to give ourselves a little flexibility when it comes to buyout and scheduling sequencing to be able to have a little flexibility as it relates to manufacturers specs.

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Absolutely. Um and then also wanted to talk through the window color. Um one thing we talk through is LV does black windows on all of our buildings which is a premium and also limits the groups that we can go to. If you want to talk through

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>> No, absolutely. Yeah. Typically and and if you know long ago vinyl windows only came in like white, you know, ivory, it was like two or three colors. Uh and then as the uh manufacturing process advanced, they were able to start to get

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an array of different colors, typically the higherend manufacturers, the higherend products are the ones that you're going to find that are able to offer these different colors, especially the darker colors. And so that sample here is kind of what we'd be looking at doing along the perimeter. And that's

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usually kind of an, you know, it's an indication that it's a higher quality window. It's not it's not single family, you know, product. You know, color there's a lot more to it than color, but it's the color, it's the efficiency, it's the it's the thermally the way it's thermally broken, uh, and the efficiency

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it provides. I mean, there's there's a lot of a lot of aspects to it. Uh, but this is definitely a commercial that would be able to offer the types of warranty that LB Collective is going to be expected on a project like this. I have a question about what you were

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showing on your details and this sample. They look like two different kinds of windows. Um they just you know the this looks like it's sort of a um a bigger scale sort of um representing a faximile of a storefront

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whereas the the ones you were showing um on the screen I don't know if they're in our packet. I I believe I believe that this section here is specifically is sticking kind of not at the frame, but it's sticking kind of at a

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at a sash condition at kind of the at an inside where you've got kind of the top panel and the bottom panel there, the top and bottom sashes and it's not necessarily like showing the actual frame. I wonder if that if I can find >> this is a storefront section that you're

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showing us here. >> This Yeah, this is this is a this is a vinyl window. >> So that's is that a structural mall? That's >> this right here. >> I'm trying to see I'm I'm agreeing with uh with Dave here. I don't see that.

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I don't see where that is in the in the section >> that that's because the section here that you're seeing, you're talking about these details, correct? >> Yeah. Like >> Yeah. So, this this section here is is kind of showing the frame and the sash. I'm going to zoom in on it again real

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quick. This is showing kind of like the the the top frame. This section would probably be just this portion here at an inter at an intersection between the molians. Like if you have like a double if you have like a double window that would be that intersection right here. So it

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doesn't this doesn't include the frame. >> So all the steel and everything that's in there would be in a bullion condition but not like your typical condition, >> right? Not it's not it's not because the frame doesn't need the stiffening because it's already attached to studs.

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But but all of this except for the stiffener in here, all of that is vinyl. The only metal in this is the little rectangular square. Rectangular the tube. Yeah.

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>> Anything else on windows? I think we're kind of trying to fix when Okay. Yeah. window question. Um, so you're talking about I know you've said this multiple times, the West Main Street and the um >> the West facade will be deeper, >> but you've got

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>> What happens where the where you turn the corner with the brick from the West Main Street side to the east side? Like it almost seems like the it would make more sense if does this does the thick and thin only apply to the fiber cement or does it also apply to the brick? No, just the just the fiber cement because

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with the brick we already have four inches of depth, so we're assuming we're going to use the the regular profile by our window. >> Okay, that makes sense. Thank you. That was >> Yeah, I'm sorry. I should have clarified that. Like we brick usually gives us a decent bit of depth anyways and so we

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didn't think that we needed to go above and beyond there. Uh and then again like the the the reasoning behind West Main and the West facade is that's kind of where a lot of the pedestrian traffic is happening. And so we figured, you know, let's get that value. You're going to be experiencing it from a close proximity.

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Let's let's, you know, put the upgraded window there and then on the on the other sides, you don't really get that close to it. And even when you do, you're kind of either under an overhang or tight to the building. You don't get that perspective of it. And it looks like there's there aren't any conditions where you're turning a corner and you're

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switching from one type to another. >> No. So, yeah. >> No, it's always separated with brick. That's correct. Okay. >> And the addition of the brick at the northwest corner kind of gave us that separation cuz otherwise that back corner would have been a a transition, but we don't have that anymore.

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>> Okay. That's I'm good for windows. Yes. >> Okay. Looking at the architect. No more window questions for me. Yeah, >> David. Good. >> Uh, I guess I have one other question. I was noticing on the top um of the

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souththeast corner, which is probably the most visible >> southeast corner >> corner. You know, the one that's facing out to the tower. >> Yeah. There you go. So, are those storefronts up there up top? >> Up here? >> Yeah.

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>> Yeah. The Yes. the this is an amenity space up at the top of the building and with the size window and the configuration that we're doing there we we couldn't do that with vinyl. Vinyl still has some limitations on size of window and all of that. So we would still have now by by the time we work

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through this I would I would imagine we would actually have uh thickened mullions. It wouldn't be like this repetitive 2 in or 3in mullion all the way through. we probably just for design loads and wind loads and you know just for full transparency I think when we

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advance it some there's going to be some thickened volume so this will be a series of storefront windows not one continuous storefront but we're talking about a very limited gap between them enough to get a stud so that you can brace it so from a design pressure standpoint you're not designing for this

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really long uh window you've got some stiffeners every now and then to be able to support the window in the opening in case of So you store front on the top and then down at the base um >> along the entire uh public realm that

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would be storefront. >> Is it storefront or a curtain wall? >> It would be storefront. We would be you know in in this case here we were seeing that darker band uh that's actually a the floor level in there. And so like that will provide you know support for

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that. We couldn't do 15 16 feet tall storefronts. you tend to be limited to like 10 10 1/2 ft uh 11 max depending on manufacturers. And so with this one, it would be separated. And at the lobby where we have the double height, there's going to be a a steel, you know, frame

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so that we can split the vertical span into two storefront windows. That would be the that would be the opposite corner right here. >> So what is that that thicker um yeah, if you go back to that other >> what is the the the wider bands? What is

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that? this that will be a metal that will be a slap cover metal. It'll be a metal cover >> part of the part of the um store storefront system. >> It uh it might be some manufacturers offer that slap cover or kind of a blank panel uh that it that matches exactly uh

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what what you know what finish they have. But most cases even if they don't have if they can't provide it, it's either brick metal depending on the size. It's either brick metal or like some sort of a metal panel that we would install there. But it the intent here is to make the bottom storefront and the

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top storefront feel like they're part of an assembly. So it's not broken with like some other material in between. So it would be metal to match the color and finish of the storefront. >> What are the what are the manufacturers you you typically source or is there? >> We used white we use YKK as basis of

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design, but for the for the same reasons that BitM had mentioned, we kind of we tend to keep it open from a spec standpoint. we just kind of do the performance spec uh YKK I believe they do have they do offer that cover now >> for this project here there you know

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there's going to be um just from an energy standpoint whether we have to do rigid insulation and and you know how you know we're probably going to do do an energy model to understand that better and depending on what we have to do if we have to insulate the edge of slab or not it can kind of restrict some

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of the options we have available as Thanks. >> Great. Um, we'll go to questions on the landscape since that was first brought up. Jen, do you want to start? >> Sure. So, I apologize in advance. I'm my

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first B meeting, so I might say or do things out of order. I might ask say make comments when I'm supposed to be asking questions. So, >> try and stick to questions right now. >> We'll try to stick to questions. You might wonder what questions. >> Okay, it's hard to contextualize some

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questions without commenting. >> Um, so I think >> yeah, the question was what raised about what what is the memory walk? Um, I I would love a little history on

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what what that is like. It doesn't come up. I don't see >> I guess. Sorry. I'm gonna step in. >> Thank you. We're not judging the memory walk this evening. >> Okay. >> Um all we're going to look at is the vehicular pedestrian connector

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um that's to the west of the building that connects West Main Street >> to the West Haven neighborhood behind >> kind of as it's designed. >> Okay. So, we're not So, we shouldn't call it Memory Walk then yet, >> right? >> We'll call it a driveway because that's what it feels like to me. >> It's a it's a drive and a pedestrian

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area. Um, and I think the applicants made it clear that they would like to continue a conversation about a future some sort of memory walk or some sort of way to engage the community in the design of the building. But, um, that would come to us later if staff determines appropriate.

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>> I am happy to talk through the history. There's a lot if you'd like me to. >> Well, I know I'm happy to move on. Okay. The question I I think related to that though is in the comment in last month in the conversation you mentioned um I you know I listened to it on YouTube the intention to make more out of this space

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in the front of the building so that that would extend to the front and then you also talked about a dedicated space between the buildings between the West Haven and so I guess I'm not you know again this I'm I'm there's a lot missing for me on this drawing so I'm going to

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ask a lot of questions about the things that are missing. I don't see >> it's intentional um because these are all spaces intended to be designed with the community. >> Okay. >> I think Kate asked I think during that

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>> clarify. >> Yeah. But we do need to whatever is there, we need to approve something that if we make an approval tonight, we have to assume that >> if everything goes bad and you guys don't work with the neighborhood,

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>> what's in these drawings were okay with being that's right. >> And was at the is within our guidelines. >> So I would encourage Jen if she sees things that are missing then. >> I I agree. I would ask that we look at it ignore the memory walk just give me

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comments. just going to give you >> Yeah, >> I think Kate did ask in that conversation last month for a diagram of the public space and right now I don't feel like I really understand what's >> consider it's all public. We have to ignore the memory walk and I would

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review it as if it's all public. >> So the area in the front is all public. Yes. So where all the where the seating is located >> everything at the ground level is public for the purposes of >> the furnishings that are shown on Main Street are for every in furnishings. I

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would not weigh in on movable furnishings, built-in furnishings. Yes, >> but there's no furnishings shown on the west side or the back side. >> We cannot. And this was a question that was asked by CH. Um, so just for clarity, the gray area where it shows 22

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ft. That is a true drive aisle into the deck. The area in green with the kind of festune lighting that's up above, that is a service alley for two things. You have to be able to legally we are we have to provide access for two things

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and that is our utility equipment that's right behind the building in terms of transformers and then also to the cell tower that is number five on this that is not a part of our property. It is outside of our our property line and it will remain. So vehicles are running

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through there. There will be ballards that are movable. Um, you cannot put permanent furnishings uh as it relates also fire access. That's how they're getting back there. So, you cannot have any permanent furnishings that would obstruct the fire department's ability

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to services from a safety standpoint and from vehicles being able to access the other side. The intent if you Well, if maybe I have control to do that. So now the area where there's a trellis that is a built-in um it is

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representative if there are any comments around the look or the placement. Now it's it's there because it clears the turn in order to get to the transformers that are there and to get to the cell tower. But that is the intent for the

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builtin space that serves as a transition from those stairs, the monumental stairs um that we are aligning directly with. And maybe it would be good to go to the site plan to help um

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help her understand the context of this. So this shows you how the memor the outdoor space is connecting directly between the two newly proposed um West Haven projects. This is their new plan,

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not how it exists today. Um so it is aligned and the intent is where the blue double-sided arrow is there. That is where there is a moment um to be designed with the community. Okay. A lot of the things you just

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mentioned are not indicated at all. Festune lighting, ballards, trellis, monumental stairs are not indicated anywhere on go to the site plan that we presented in the last meeting. Please, >> do you have that where it is? We have landscape plans. And apologies, this was

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all presented in the last meeting. So, we didn't include it not to evade it, but because I was under the impression that we we just didn't know um that there was going to be a new member. So, again, our intent is not to evade or not provide information. The information was just provided previously and we're happy

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to go through it again. >> Okay. >> I guess as BA members, we if we're at being asked to vote tonight, we look at only the submittal that we've received for this meeting. >> Yeah, we're happy. Yeah, we're happy. >> We can't look at anything that we received in May. >> Okay. Understood. Then

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>> and I think we got >> I mean I know it sounds redundant. >> I think this is in your in your package. It was just not in the presentation today. >> Exactly. And apologies for miscommunic. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yeah. As he say stated he was picking up kind of where he left off last month, but it is in the package. I saw some

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lighting. >> Yeah, there is lighting but there's no estune lighting. There's no ballards. There's no trellis. And there's no monumentards. Yeah, >> the monumental stairs are not on our property. >> Okay. Well, that that's good to know, >> I guess. >> And the the lighting, no, we don't have

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a spec. And again, this is where it gets really hard. We specifically discussed not getting into detail. The only reason I mentioned festune lighting is because the strings are overhead. I was just mentioning that for for reference to describe where the >> zigzags are

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intended to be fest. Okay. >> I thought that was pavement markings. >> Are there pavement markings? I apologize then. That's my personal misunderstanding. >> And that part of what we're doing is like the the 22 foot wide lane

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>> day day in day out is going to be used for parking up to the parking entry. The section beyond that where we've got the the pavement patterns and the greenery that's going to be X favored. We do need to design it to obviously withstand fire access and also access to the cell tower

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and in if needed access to our transformers that are located at the back. So it is going to be designed to withstand that type of load but we've changed the pattern so that it's a clear delineation between what is vehicular access to get to the deck versus beyond

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that point it's emergency services only service access emergency first responders that's it >> right and what we've talked about with the community is even though we cannot do built-ins there um I can provide the emails where we responded in writing

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saying that we are happy to do programming subject to the fire departments. Um so if we wanted to have food trucks in there, if we wanted to have a art show, a market, um those are all things so long as it is temporary and and removable um that are all open in discussion and again happy to provide

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those communications. The the daily use of it though would be temp like temporary >> up for discussion. Um as we are open so long as it is not a permanent obstruction that would stop the fire

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department from having access or again from us meeting our legal obligations to allow access to the cell tower and the transformers. Okay, I'll keep going. Um, is the walk that is shown there, is that intended to be accessible?

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>> Yes. Everything has to be accessible. Yes. >> Okay. >> The the 8 foot walk on the west edge of the property. >> Yes. >> Yes. Yep. And and everywhere. >> I mean, even though it's coming up the hill from West Haven,

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>> we cannot control what is not on our property line. >> Okay. And then storm water. I was curious where storm water will be collected on the site. >> I think that's part of that engineering that civil engineering package that is

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currently being uh reviewed. Uh I believe that it's going to be under the building in the uh in the parking area, but I would need to go and confirm that with uh with the civil engineering team. >> Okay. Yeah, I didn't see any indication

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of any sort of >> collection area on the site. >> Yeah, we we have not included any civil engineering. >> It's going to be underground detention anyway. So, that's a part of the site plan approval process, not necessarily

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>> if it's underground. >> That's right. It's sort of out of out of view. So, it's not ex >> Okay. >> Yeah. The downspouts, if there were exterior downspouts, those would be under our purview. >> Or if they had a rain garden or retention pond. Yeah. Okay. For sure. >> Okay. I just wanted to see >> what the intention was there.

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>> So, I mean, still relevant then I guess my next question is about archaeology. Um, given that this has never been developed, have y'all considered to phase one to look at? We've taken care of that and we will adhere to all of the the requirements. Um, the most that we

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can do is start construction and if something is found, then we'll stop construction. But as it relates to the design of the building, um I'm happy to answer any question or concern around the design of the building. >> Can I ask staff is that I mean is it

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acceptable for us to request? >> Very common um particularly at a site like this that is that hasn't been developed uh uh to require a phase one um uh examination. And those are not,

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you know, this is these are spaced test pits, but I think much as anything, it's a um an in-depth uh uh document document uh and record evaluation by an AR archaeologist. But

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um if they deem necessary to do any sort of test bits, they might. But it's uh it is not uh this not does not become an archaeological site and we don't unlike where we had at um the court's expansion project where we

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had documentation of um burials um none are suspected here uh or at least not a record indicating burials here. So, um, so yeah, phase one, uh, would be appropriate and you could use language

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that we used in the, um, for the mark for the 218 West Market. Um, and simply to say prior to the issuance of a building permit, um, uh, a phase one archaeological investigation will be

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completed and provided to staff. >> Okay. If that is complete already, we can provide it now. Yeah, >> city staff. >> What's that? >> You said by the staff >> provided to staff. Sorry. >> Um and on the landscape discussion and I

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know I handed Carl a suggestion and he passed it down. Um so we're still in questions. >> Uh we thought it was being passed to the chair. So we it wasn't that >> fair enough. Fair enough. Okay. >> We'll come to it. I think I have a question. >> Yes.

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Uh, is there this we don't normally talk about the interior of the building, but I think this directly affects the exterior uh space on the west side of the building. Is there interior access to the trash room from the parking side? >> Like how are people bringing their trash

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down? >> Oh, there's shoots. >> Okay. >> So, you're not you don't come down. You're going to drop it in your chute in each in each floor. >> So, we're not going to have trash sitting outside the trash door. >> No. No. No. and that we'll have like weekly pickup from a truck probably. I mean, we don't

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know this. >> Yeah, don't know that yet. Um I think that's to be worked through with with the city. We have started those discussions. Um weekly would be the the minimum >> minimum >> pickup. Yeah. So, the the the doors that

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we're going to have in the termination room in the ground level in the trash room is going to be an overhead door so that when the bins are getting emptied, they're pulled out and put back in when that overhead door closes. Usually, we would have like a a regular man door in there as well, just

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cuz that maintenance wouldn't want to open the overhead door every time just to get in and out of the room, but those would be possibly that that could be designed to be facing uh the parking. We we've shown one door currently kind of in that design that we've done with the plasters and the brick detailing.

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There's one door there. Uh but we've got flexibility there in terms of how we maneuver these bins of the sheets and all that to make it work. >> Okay. >> I I wanted to get back to the solar study and the shade analysis where you

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have shown the noon. I think it would be helpful to show 9:00 a.m. and 5:00 p.m. on those same dates. And I think that that would help determine what plantings

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are survivable or thriving >> in in that and also at your property line because they may want to do plantings there. seeing that shade in solar study would be helpful

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for them. >> Right. >> I think that's a good point. Um and and follow up with that. I was just curious about the trees that were shown in the shrubs. Um were those selected by how what was the selection process um for

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those? Were they done by your um group or was water street involved? you mentioned Water Street having been involved in some of the planning at some point. Um I was just wondering what you know what the selection process was there. >> Yeah. So uh and I'm happy to respond. I mean this was done by our in-house

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landscape group uh early on as we were starting to kind of advance on the on the design and leading up to the submission that we made to come and meet with you in in May. Uh since then there's been some updates in terms of the ongoing discussions and Water Street

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uh potentially coming back on board. I think >> we have not had any dialogue with Water Street um since our August meeting just for for clarity. >> Is there a reason why you haven't engaged with them yet? >> Yes. um because it's a large it's a

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larger part of a community benefits a agreement and it was a part of maybe about 200 line items um that I was presented with and because I have not had the opportunity to sit with West Haven um specifically because that's kind of who we interact with the most

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there hasn't been an opportunity to engage in that dialogue so I don't necessarily want to have conversations with Water Street if I don't know what the community is looking for me to say to Water Do you know if the plants that are shown on this plan uh adhere to the city's uh

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plant what is it recommendations? What's the right word? >> Tree list. Hopefully. >> Yeah, I would hope so. I I cannot I do not know unfortunately. If not, if there is a preference on the type of plants that go back there specifically looking

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at, we don't have any preconceived notions of of what goes back there. Scale, height, width, um, >> truly open for >> Did staff just confirm did Kate just confirm that they are on our list? >> No, she was confirming.

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>> It's a plant power. I just want to respond to that. Well, I've got a follow-up question on that based on the June 4th letter um to Timmans from the city planner. I mean, it sounds like um you know, there are still some issues with streetscape standards, green space,

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tree requirements, selections. These are all reasons for denial and that they're looking for a resubmission. And my question to you is, is that resubmission going to change the site plan that we're looking at? because again, we're only able to comment or or vote on what we

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see tonight. >> Jeff, do you want to speak to that? >> Yeah, it's what I said earlier. It's uh this is the rolling of the dice, if you will. um they're um

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the applicant. If something changes, something substantive uh significant um then we have to weigh whether or not um if if that's necessary to get an approved site plan. And that's why I

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made the note. Um I'm digging for my staff report. Um So basically this would just come back to us. >> Well, it's possible and that's I said it's a uh it it's it's a you know again

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to make clear that the you know a development plan is not the equivalent of a site plan and so acknowledge that upfront. Um and that if the um if if to if what's approved

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for a COA presumably if if that occurs uh then that must be reflected with what's on a development plan and development plans now are requiring elevations and and a level of information which as I said I think it's

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um it's it's it's more information. You should really be looking at this. If I were an applicant, I'd be looking at my site plan because I want to make sure I know where everything is going to go and where everything will fit. And then I make sure the building fits within that. So

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the risk here is the developers um and if um I said if you all approve the design as presented and later on it a you know site plan or development plan can't be approved without changes to

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that then the risk they face is that to come back and and modify their design. >> And we we tried to do our best here in working with with staff. Um, we went ahead, we were in a site plan process before and that's our intent to continue

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with the site plan process. We switched to the development process for the process of transparency here so that we could outline what doesn't match, but that is typically a part of the process. We're in our first round. You're always going to have comments, right? You're always going to have comments in the

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first round. And that's simply where where we are. It's a little tough to ask the development community to go all the way through to construction documents to get your site plan without knowing if BA art supports you. Um, so just not really

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sure how to >> I I appreciate that and um >> but put yourself in our shoes where typically we have uh a more specific I mean it doesn't have to be fully construction drawings but we're we are usually presented with more specific

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species uh um tree canopies. I mean those are things that that matter a lot to us. I completely understand and that's where again I'm in a bit of a hard place when it comes to landscaping as well because it's all a part of the community

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dialogue and the last thing I want is to design this in a silo and do kind of what the community thinks I'm I'm doing. So what I'm trying to tell you is if there are spec we are happy to put on there anything that's on the list of requirements no matter what we can't get

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a permit without site plan approval. it. You can't build this without getting to a site plan approval. So, you guys have comfort that something from the city's list of requirements is going to be there. That that comfort is inherent because we can't build it without doing

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that. So, what I'm suggesting is if there's something from the list that we have to pick from either way that you guys would like to see, please tell me. >> I have a question for um Carl or staff perhaps. Um the planning requirements

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for this site, would that just be along the street right along Main Street or does that apply to all four sides of the building? Like the tree the tree >> tree canopy is the whole >> the whole thing >> the whole site there there's streetscape requirements and then there's like a tree canopy for the whole site.

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>> Um yeah >> yeah yeah so they will be looking they will be overseeing all the planted trees. If I can clarify something, um Kate, can you just go to a go to that uh one of those conceptual landscape uh

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plan views that they have. So um and I mean fortunately in my resume is many years in construction. So I I I I do have a bit of a unique view uh when things change on a project site. No, go

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to the Kate that um on their in their submittal just one of the the landscaping views. >> Yeah. And so what I want to make clear to everyone and and not only to you all and the applicant but the to the public

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record um because it has happened where uh buildings get tweaked you know there there's a um you know where there's a door uh might become a window or where there's a window might have to be shifted because a mechanical room wall

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has to be uh built. So I um I I if at some point in the future, you know, they come back and say these transformers or whatever they are are over here, uh or you know, this wall is, you know, this little inset isn't

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there. This wall continues, I'm probably going to work with them on that. Uh I I I don't sit down and say, "No, you said this thing was going to be working and not um you know, you said this thing is going to be 12' 6 in. It

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better be 12' 6 in and not 12'8 in." You all are looking at this at a at a a step back level from construction drawings as you've said. And when projects of this scale when they go in and said figure out where the

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transformers are going to go, figure out where the mechanical systems going to go, things move around a little bit and I I allow myself the freedom to work with the applicant. Now, if they came in and where this plaza in the front is suddenly, you know, infilled and uh uh

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the sto the the storefronts are only on the two ends. we're going to come have a conversation. So, so I just want to make that clear to everyone out there that when we talk about what what tweaks may occur, um tweaks happen. A landscape plan is

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required for the site plan and and certainly a more robust uh landscape plan than what you're seeing here. Something that's detailed, something that meets the tree canopy requirements. Uh with our new ordinance, there's a lot more specificity in that that they have

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to meet. what um so that's why I say I'm okay with this because I know for example the lighting is addressed in our code uh they can't put bright lights with a lot of glare and I put in some conditions that

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address the the the parking lot an option and and I uh James if I'm if I'm jumping ahead on my question but as far as the landscape goes if absolutely necessary I I could omit the landscaping from this

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COA. It's very different from a you know I know we don't do incremental COAs and that means we don't say I like the height massing and scale. we approve it, come back later with the design, the landscape and I what I'm speaking in terms of is that the plantings is a

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distinct uh piece that's separable from the design of this building and I if it's if that's a we want clarification on what is planted particularly on that

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um north boundary. Um, I see no problem with uh if if you were to approve a COA for the design, omitting uh the landscaping plan requiring that to come back for a COA and that would be a separate application. It wouldn't be

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something later. It would be a COA specifically for for the uh the plantings or or for whatever element of the landscape that you uh chose. Uh I'm very comfortable with that if it's a means to an end. I also as I what I shared with with James is there's a

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section of the code that refers to the type of screening between areas of different zoning. Uh we don't have that here. So there's not a required type of landscape screening but the code does

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lay out um a series of of and I you know see there transition screen high number two. Um so I if would be helpful if if you all are asking maybe we're not I don't know what is the best species to put there um

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or what sequence of plantings to put there but if if there's an intent that we can establish um and if it's an intent we can establish through reference to these in the code. So you all don't have the authority to

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say you have to meet the code, but you certainly have the purview to say, hey, here's a really good example in the code of development. Let's refer to that. So if I'm offering that if that's a helpful way to express what you all are hoping to accomplish. And a quick question. If

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we approve the massing as proposed and the shade makes this screening uh untenable, then where does that put us? >> And that that's a you know, so let's um >> there's species that will they can find

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species that will fit that will grow back there. >> Okay. >> I mean, there are trees growing on the north side of the flats that are they're living there. There are trees growing on the north side of lots of tall buildings in town. so they can find something. >> And I I do think you're hitting on a really good point. I I want to make sure

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I'm saying I'm not necessarily asking for a specific species, right? >> But what I'm saying, what we are happy to commit to is the bulletoint list that Jeff put up earlier. If we want to add a bullet point that says you must have plantings at two feet, four feet, six

433
02:29:01.120 --> 02:29:17.600
feet, 12 feet or a plethora thereof, happy to add that as a kind of, you know, option. And I'm happy to outline exactly where where that needs to be within the plan. I would just ask that, of course, that the species is left open

434
02:29:17.600 --> 02:29:34.960
to pick from what's allowed within the code. Yeah, it it's trying to keep us from going down that path of designing this space knowing that tree canopy and and coverage is a requirement of the code, >> but it it using our code to express an

435
02:29:34.960 --> 02:29:50.720
intent. You know, the goal back there is to achieve X. Um the uh I think if if you all were to say I mean if they came back and said we can't do this because of the height of our building, we can't meet the tree canopy

436
02:29:50.720 --> 02:30:06.479
requirements and then then they have they have avenues to request um a remedy to that. Now the result may be well you all aren't providing the screen that the BA screening type the BA asked for. you

437
02:30:06.479 --> 02:30:22.880
know, then we can have a conversation about that. But this is a uh I I I'm trying to think of a means to move forward. And and if I can just sidestep for a second, it's part of why at the end of the staff report, I took the guidelines and Carl sees this because I

438
02:30:22.880 --> 02:30:37.840
do it for the entrance corridor. I use a spreadsheet of all of their guidelines and I say yes, no, here's what happens. Here's what applies. I did that here and it's unusual but it's to this is a lot of a discussion we've been having internally is you know what are the

439
02:30:37.840 --> 02:30:54.640
guidelines and you know and what are B's per purview and and an explanation that's helpful is the our guidelines don't say that you have to provide building sections of a level of detail a lot of these are because it helps when

440
02:30:54.640 --> 02:31:10.160
we have to review the building permit that that the the drawings are help are realizing what's shown in the renderings and elevations that you all have looked at. So there are I appreciate there are times when we ask for more detail than

441
02:31:10.160 --> 02:31:26.319
maybe the guidelines suggest we ask for but there's also places where uh you know the guidelines are fairly general and so um I just trying to illustrate that by adding it here. So I think again landscaping the intent back there is to

442
02:31:26.319 --> 02:31:41.840
create screening. What type of screening I think you can express by reference to to the ordinance if if what types of trees and spacing and what ultimately that landscaping will be back there. If you want to see that in

443
02:31:41.840 --> 02:31:58.479
specificity then then you can you can omit that from the COA and say that it comes back. And then the last thing I would say is that there is it I I you know Breck and I talk a lot about landscape architecture and how it fits into the V process. And I think there's

444
02:31:58.479 --> 02:32:14.880
that distinction between a a designed landscape where um you know someone is achieving something with the you know terrace and plants and everything versus providing the trees as required by code. So it's sort of that that you know if

445
02:32:14.880 --> 02:32:30.160
this isn't if this were intended as you know this landscape that 100 years from now is a you know Lawrence Halpern landscape that's you know available for the national register or is this you know what are the trees necessary to

446
02:32:30.160 --> 02:32:46.080
provide shade and provide buffer uh so that I think be that distinction applies here this is uh we're not in these are not the gardens in front of the the palace But I think this is a vernacular landscape, right? I mean, this is a

447
02:32:46.080 --> 02:33:03.600
cultural landscape probably since the 1960s. This has been a site where the community has access West Main Street. >> And so I think we need to give it >> much more consideration than just a a sidewalk, >> right? >> Um so I think

448
02:33:03.600 --> 02:33:19.359
>> and you that is within your purview. Yes. >> So that that's where I probably do need to speak to to the history. So kind of taking a step back to about a year ago. So the memory walk was on the other side of the building and there was a detailed

449
02:33:19.359 --> 02:33:37.200
landscape plan designed by Water Street. Um and the community understandably so wanted a direct connection to Main Street. Um at that point their um their location of the walkway um was also a

450
02:33:37.200 --> 02:33:53.600
little closer to ours, but it still joged. Um so they just wanted a straight shot. So in between August and today um West Haven re-imagined their plans um uh not to necessarily align with anything

451
02:33:53.600 --> 02:34:10.160
just conditions on on their site and it moved to where it is now. In response to that we relocated ours to align with it so that we could provide that direct straight access and we're even providing we've already talked to fire. We're even providing the walkway all the way across

452
02:34:10.160 --> 02:34:26.000
Main Street to the southern side so that there's safe ADA access with a signalized crosswalk to get to the bus stop. With that, however, there's about 6 ft of topo that doesn't show in the plans running from our driveway all the

453
02:34:26.000 --> 02:34:41.280
way to the bridge. Remember, bridge connection is right there. There's only one place that the city will allow us to access our garage and it's right there. So if we want the direct connection to align with West Haven per the community,

454
02:34:41.280 --> 02:34:59.120
not us, per the community, then how do you fit all of that within there? So there are there are a lot of layers to this. It's not meant to be an 8ft sidewalk and that's why we're trying to figure out ways to wrap it all. The intent is that it wraps all the way around the building, right? And the

455
02:34:59.120 --> 02:35:15.280
reason that we can't get to specificity on the landscape plans is because again, the West Haven plans show improvements on our property line. And we want to be able to do that. That's the right thing to do. We want that connection to to happen. And I know we're focused on the

456
02:35:15.280 --> 02:35:31.120
historic district here, not the relation to West Haven, right? That needs to be remembered, right? But the intent is that it's wrapping all the way around. So, we can't get into specificity of the landscaping without having that

457
02:35:31.120 --> 02:35:46.399
community meeting, which again was attempted to have twice by the time we got here. Those meetings are bi-weekly. An attempt was made at each meeting. >> Right. And I appreciate that. And I just want to say, I mean, I totally understand what you're saying. I just

458
02:35:46.399 --> 02:36:02.560
want to go on record that this is not just a planting plan. Um, we're not just looking at, you know, >> and we're not suggesting that, >> right? I'm I'm talking amongst ourselves like this is a really important connection for the community that has been there as long as West Haven has

459
02:36:02.560 --> 02:36:18.240
been there and I just want >> there's not a dedicated it's a parking lotification I'm just saying there is a connection to West Main Street from West Haven and I just want us to I want to be able to like really >> there's no connection I want to make

460
02:36:18.240 --> 02:36:34.319
sure that's clear there is no connection right now >> people that walk >> but there is no connection you are walking a vernacular like there's an experiential connection that people make. They walk they walk from West Haven. I see the p I mean I've seen the paths. I've seen people walking. >> So I'm talking I'm not talking about a

461
02:36:34.319 --> 02:36:51.920
design. I'm talking about a vernacular >> a cultural landscape that exists. So I think we just need to really be thoughtful about >> and we're trying to be very thoughtful and inclusive. So I think what like we talked about earlier

462
02:36:51.920 --> 02:37:07.760
that that level of community involvement hasn't happened yet for whatever reasons and so that flushed out full design isn't what we're looking at tonight. >> Right. >> Correct. >> Um so we either you know we're going to have to grapple with that in a few

463
02:37:07.760 --> 02:37:25.760
minutes. Um I think I want to recognize we're still in our questions phase. Mhm. >> Um >> so if we can table that for a little bit and then we'll come back to it. I think that'd be helpful. Um let's talk about any other questions on we've talked

464
02:37:25.760 --> 02:37:42.479
landscape, we've talked windows details. Uh questions from B. Sorry, >> I have some questions. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean um what topic do you want to go to next? Does it have to be a topic or can >> I just feel like it's been helpful for our note takingaking for my note

465
02:37:42.479 --> 02:37:59.680
takingaking and whatnot to try and talk in in like brick hardy plank like what do you want to go to next? >> I want to go to um well >> and we're still in questions. >> Okay. So I'll start simple. >> Let's do materials. We'll talk about fiber. >> There you go.

466
02:37:59.680 --> 02:38:16.560
>> Um so you're just you're going to use the James Hardy with the finish that comes with it. Is that the the plan? that is the intent. Uh in some markets we found that painting the the hardy is kind of the the the way that it's done

467
02:38:16.560 --> 02:38:33.200
in these specific markets. Our preference is always to >> find a color if it works with the palette. They have limited colors, but if it has expanded over the years, our preference is to find something that is uh that comes in prefinished and it installs. It gets touched up as need be,

468
02:38:33.200 --> 02:38:49.600
but that tends to actually age better than the paint onsite product. >> And um I I think this is me just ca or whatever, but covering my own, but sorry. Um >> you're going to use the smooth finish, not the wood grain. >> That's correct.

469
02:38:49.600 --> 02:39:07.200
>> Okay. Um All right. Um that was my question on Hardy Panel. Are there other questions on Hardy Panel before I questions I want to ask? And and those are the proposed colors. >> Yeah. Do you guys want to see these again? I can pass it back down

470
02:39:07.200 --> 02:39:22.960
>> with a brick as well. >> Those are four four colors in here. Uh we we only have three on the on on the building as it stands currently. So we have the light, the white, and the dark. These are kind of the the accents. And I

471
02:39:22.960 --> 02:39:38.000
think the lighter of the two grays is what we would use as the mid as the mid gray. So this one will be our darker, right? That would be the dark and then the and then that would be the mid. >> So this one's probably going in the trash >> probably. >> Okay. >> Yeah, >> I think those two are are pretty

472
02:39:38.000 --> 02:39:56.080
similar. One's a little gray, one's a little green, but we get it. There's a dark, there's a light gray, and a white. >> That's right. And I can >> And then for the brick, remind us. Is this just texture or all three colors or >> But the brick is just is just one

473
02:39:56.080 --> 02:40:12.399
current one color currently that we've got proposing. These are just alternatives that we're weighing in just, you know, proximity to the site where it's coming from, but we it's really just to say that this is the tone and the shade that we're going >> back to the uh the note uh the notes that uh zoning gave you guys. Um there

474
02:40:12.399 --> 02:40:27.840
are some um modifications, variances, and waiverss that they are expecting you guys to address. And I'm just these are not gotcha questions. These are more of just me trying to help try to understand the building better. Um, so, um, the requirements of the streetscape, I think

475
02:40:27.840 --> 02:40:43.280
I understood that the is it just where the trees are relative to the sidewalk? Is that the question? And do you guys are if you narrowed in on like in our packet, we're seeing the trees against the street, but I think there's a a screenshot somewhere in here of a site

476
02:40:43.280 --> 02:40:58.479
plan that shows them shows the sidewalk between the trees and the street >> that >> which ways are you? >> That's correct. that that has to go with the with the topo uh the topo that we're working with. We're trying to get that plaza obviously as leveled as it can be against the building, provide these

477
02:40:58.479 --> 02:41:15.120
entry points as much as we can. >> Uh there is a slope that 6ft slope from one end to the other. And by by doing it by by having the landscaping between the internal sidewalk and the outer sidewalk, we're able to maneuver the grades a little bit better and provide

478
02:41:15.120 --> 02:41:32.479
stepping between the internal sidewalk and the external sidewalk. was working a little bit better from a utility standpoint. You know, talking to the civil engineer, it was also working a little bit better in terms of being able to run what you know, everything that needs to run on the ground. >> And remind me, Landmark has the same

479
02:41:32.479 --> 02:41:48.720
condition against the street. >> I believe across the street, uh the building across the street from the standard had that same condition. Uh I it could be that the standard has the same outside. Uh, and I believe there was also some utility benefit to it in

480
02:41:48.720 --> 02:42:05.040
terms of where the trees are going to go relative to utility. >> Okay. >> Yeah. All right. Well, we'll um >> we're going to share our plan just to make sure we're saying the same thing. >> Okay. Because it looks like the Yeah, the the rendering or the rendered site

481
02:42:05.040 --> 02:42:20.960
plan that you gave us looks like you have a >> middle that is under review apparently has adjusted that to do exactly what they've done at the flags. So, what we're voting on tonight would be those trees are moving inward is what you're telling me.

482
02:42:20.960 --> 02:42:36.640
>> That's correct. >> Okay. Is everybody following? >> So, not what what not what was submitted. >> Correct. >> So, they're moving toward the property line. >> Um, moving towards the building >> and the package >> in the staff report. >> Staff report there's a different plan.

483
02:42:36.640 --> 02:42:54.560
I'm thinking of the variance that that >> um >> I was going to say this may be a timing issue >> um because we're moving trying to get the development plans kind of reviewed at the same same time. um because I

484
02:42:54.560 --> 02:43:11.520
didn't even realize um so apologies that that this is not showing >> and I'm just being extra OCD sure when we make a vote tonight we know what we're >> completely completely agree >> um the um

485
02:43:11.520 --> 02:43:28.319
uh I guess active depth is always an issue but the uh ground story height and finished floor elevation um where are you guys going straight with that >> where where we have Uh, I'll go back to the plans on that one. Where we have the

486
02:43:28.319 --> 02:43:44.080
uh where we're not meeting the active height, it's where we have the amenities stacked. So, uh, where we've got where we've got the lobby, where we have this double height space. >> Mhm. >> This plan to the next plan. Uh, we don't we don't have we don't have issues

487
02:43:44.080 --> 02:44:00.240
there. As soon as we get into the amenities, because of the way the sidewalk is working, we're actually kind of depressed once once we get past these steps, the finished floor inside the building is lower >> than the than the plaza. >> And so we've got another level above

488
02:44:00.240 --> 02:44:16.720
that. And so we, you know, if you if we're measuring from street level, that next amenity level up comes in quicker than we don't have. >> It's halfway in between. So you still see it. It just doesn't come all the way to the window line to to count. So you still see that second like mezzanine

489
02:44:16.720 --> 02:44:32.080
level up there. So you still have the activity just doesn't come all the way to that band that we were talking about. >> So for the pedestrian experience, we're still seeing kind of double height spaces. >> Active use. Active use. Yeah, it's just two floors instead of one tall floor.

490
02:44:32.080 --> 02:44:49.359
>> Um Okay. And I understand the setback in the the entrances. I think that'll I get why that's an issue. Um >> Okay. been extended here to to accommodate the plaza. >> And the intent of the plaza is to serve

491
02:44:49.359 --> 02:45:06.640
as an extension of the memorial walk, not a plaza for our residents, per se. It's because I actually felt the same way in terms of having this memory walk to the left that I wanted to bring it to the front of the building to make sure it was at the forefront. So, the intent

492
02:45:06.640 --> 02:45:23.040
is that you have your art there, you have your signage, and that it's celebrated front and center. That's why that's there. >> Um, any other questions about zoning? Because I got I have pick your little questions. >> So, just to clarify the I was trying to

493
02:45:23.040 --> 02:45:38.240
find in the staff report where the image was that somebody referenced like the trees along the street edge or go away. >> No, they move. >> They shift. >> They shift towards the the steps >> the building. So, there'll be sidewalk street trees,

494
02:45:38.240 --> 02:45:53.760
>> steps down, and then plaza. >> Okay. So, if you look at this right here, Muhammad, tell me if I'm wrong, the the rectangles or squares down at the bottom, those go away and there's already planters and the planting boxes there. Now, they have to meet city

495
02:45:53.760 --> 02:46:11.040
requirements, right? Um, but that's the idea. >> Shift up and then you've got the sidewalk against the curve and then you got the landscape landscaping strip with the steps that connect between the two sidewalks and then you got the plaza. >> It's page 93. >> Yeah, thank you. 93 PDF

496
02:46:11.040 --> 02:46:26.080
>> PDF 93. >> But from a variance perspective, if that's not approved, then this is the plan we have to build. Is that right? >> That's correct. >> Here we go. So, you're kind of looking at it both ways. If we don't get approval for the variance, this is what

497
02:46:26.080 --> 02:46:43.479
gets built. If we do get approval from the variance during the site plan process, the rectangles at the bottoms go away. >> Go away. Is is this buildable >> with a landscape against the curve? >> Yeah.

498
02:46:44.080 --> 02:47:00.160
>> Kind of a civil question on whether or not like yes as shown you'd run into utilities but we'd have to look into utility reroutes like it's because of the slopes. I can't fully answer that unless you can >> and and I think that you know so I can't

499
02:47:00.160 --> 02:47:15.040
answer the civil portion of it but because we do have the sidewalks you know internal on the plaza and the sidewalk on the outside because at some point the closer we get to the the bridge the more that elevation change occurs. If we have them right against

500
02:47:15.040 --> 02:47:31.120
each other it makes that con connection between the two a little bit more difficult. open. So you would have to work your way to the southwest corner to get closer to being leveled. And so separating them allows that landscape buffer to function as that zone that we

501
02:47:31.120 --> 02:47:47.760
can use to step up and down between the two sidewalks. So it improves the connection between the outer sidewalk and the plaza by having the landscape zone in there to be able to grade it a little bit differently and give us enough room to be able to step between the two when we need more than a couple

502
02:47:47.760 --> 02:48:03.680
of steps. By the time we get to the to the front door on the on the south west corner, we're fairly close to the sidewalks are fairly close to being leveled. It's the bridge side, you know, that you know, now we've actually improved the condition with the plaza stepping up the way it is, but there's

503
02:48:03.680 --> 02:48:21.200
still great differences to be to be worked out between the plaza and the sidewalk because the sidewalk has to be maintained as an accessible connection all along the front edge. So, we really have and and the street elevation is not changing. and we don't have any control over what grades that's going to be in.

504
02:48:21.200 --> 02:48:37.439
So the landscape buffer in between I'm sorry I'm talking a lot but that gives us that ability to step up and down. >> So there's no like there's a still a step here. >> I think I think at that point it ends up it ends up being nothing >> cuz where why I asked is to your point

505
02:48:37.439 --> 02:48:54.000
sorry to your point of accessibility uh I think it's important to have >> these grades right there. Absolutely. That's the goal >> so that folks can get into the plaza basically if they have accessible needs. >> That's that's correct. So that end by

506
02:48:54.000 --> 02:49:10.160
the front door is going to be leveled and civil is working the gates for that to be leveled and then beyond that there'll be start with a couple of steps and then you know up to like four or five at the most height difference. But because the sidewalk, the street sidewalk maintains

507
02:49:10.160 --> 02:49:26.720
its grade, then you don't need to add in additional ADA requirements. Like you don't need a ramp at this step here. >> That's correct. Okay. >> That's correct. Yeah, cuz we have guard rails at the bridge. There's no connection to that sidewalk anyway. The

508
02:49:26.720 --> 02:49:44.479
elevation is different. And so that that's how we're kind of working. We're working the accessible means by having that zone in the middle to warp it and ramp it. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Can you nitpick your questions?

509
02:49:44.479 --> 02:49:59.680
>> Sure thing. >> Sorry. Parking screens. Um, so the north side on the elevation, it looks like we're I was expecting to see screens. It says textured brick. I think I read that correctly. Is that correct? It's just >> that that that is that we we've actually

510
02:49:59.680 --> 02:50:15.600
made that change between the presentation in May and this one. Uh part of that is there was some there was some feedback, some comments about thinking through how how are we uh screening the lights from the parking from bleeding outside. What happens to

511
02:50:15.600 --> 02:50:32.160
headlights? And you know based on the redesign over the last few months, we have lost our ability to do natural ventilation anyways. And so we were not needing these openings to be able to get uh ventilation in the deck. So we figured if that's if that's an issue and

512
02:50:32.160 --> 02:50:47.120
there's a concern there and we know we understand that it's going to be residential on the on you know on the north side of us. We've decided to you know block you know take out the openings and instead you know we didn't want to have a flat brick wall. So we've

513
02:50:47.120 --> 02:51:04.000
kind of used that same patterning to just create texture brick or just kind of a different running wall. >> Okay. Okay. From the bottom. Well, that that makes that easy. Um, and I guess the you've got a metal parking screen example that just looks like it's a wire

514
02:51:04.000 --> 02:51:19.600
grid. Is that what >> That's right. And that would be on the east side. >> It's a mesh only on the east side. That's correct. >> Okay. Just really facing anything. Okay. >> That's right. It's that side is facing the rail. >> You had some decorative uh brick shown

515
02:51:19.600 --> 02:51:36.640
on some of your renders, but it was unclear how it was. I mean, it looked kind of interesting on the renders, but I had no idea how it was what it was and how it was detailed. There you go. >> This here. Yeah. So, this is this is really kind of what we're doing is it's a this one here is a is a is a is it's

516
02:51:36.640 --> 02:51:52.319
shown as a Flemish bond right now. And what we're doing is really just with every other course, we're pushing it out half an inch. So, it creates it creates that texture that uh that you're seeing in the screen. It's not it's not a lot of depth, but it's enough for when the sun hits it, it kind of creates that

517
02:51:52.319 --> 02:52:08.399
shadow effect, and it just elevates it a little bit more beyond just the the typical flat running bonds. >> Part of that is we don't have glazing on this side, and this is the this is the memory walk and we wanted to kind of celebrate it. We're forced into having

518
02:52:08.399 --> 02:52:25.279
to put some of the utilities there because it's the only way we can get vehicular access to them. And so this was kind of a way to elevate the design along that base along that west base of the building. >> So you you also have some rustication or or there you go. Thanks. Uh

519
02:52:25.279 --> 02:52:40.880
so that's on the >> So this is looking south on the right side there is the west. So that basically the memory lane is on the right side of this image. >> Okay. So that's okay. >> You have it. You have it. And then it's also >> trellis in your plan, but I don't see it there

520
02:52:40.880 --> 02:52:57.680
>> cuz we're standing in front of it and this is not meant to this is more there was a specific request at the last meeting to focus on enhancements to the elevation. So this image is just meant to focus on the enhancements to that elevation, but you're also standing in >> Yeah.

521
02:52:57.680 --> 02:53:14.080
In all honesty, even the even the patterning on the floor on the on the ground, you know, is not really matching up like I would reference this just for the purpose of some of the detailing on the facade. >> So for the vertical brick striping, I guess on the upper floors >> over here.

522
02:53:14.080 --> 02:53:31.120
>> Yep. Is that the same approach with that >> same approach? Same approach. A little more subtle. So, in a couple of areas along the along al along the perimeter, this being one where the where the unit layouts are coming together, we're going to have bathrooms along the the edge. And so, we

523
02:53:31.120 --> 02:53:46.399
we don't have the ability to put windows. And so, we're coming in and this would be kind of part of the typical running bond that we're doing. We'll take a zone in there and we'll start to kind of inset at like a half inch inset portion of it just to create a little bit of texturing on the

524
02:53:46.399 --> 02:54:02.000
>> You've got some along West Main as well, I think, at least in one spot. Uh currently on West Main it is one it is one spot. So it's like some it's like these residential wings that kind of project out just the design of the units at the end of that wing tend to you know

525
02:54:02.000 --> 02:54:18.640
put bathrooms against a a center demising wall. And so instead of it being kind of a flat wall we're just coming in. We wouldn't change the bond of the we wouldn't change the brick uh bond or anything. We would just come in and start to kind of inset in and out just to create a little bit of shadow and some detail.

526
02:54:18.640 --> 02:54:34.160
>> Okay. is I mean it looked like you had just Flemish Bond and the other visit. What is like what is creating the vertical there and what's creating the horizontal? >> I I think uh I think I think this is just the the pattern in this rendering

527
02:54:34.160 --> 02:54:51.120
kind of ended up Yeah. I uh I'm going to go back to the >> It's just me. Oh, I see. It's got the You got the corbal up top. >> Oh, yeah. We have the coral up top and but but I I this this graphic here shows a lot you know a lot better kind of what we're what we're proposing and that

528
02:54:51.120 --> 02:55:06.399
wraps the corner on the north end as well. Uh so it's the Flemish bond with the with the with with the with the full bricks getting pushed out. >> Uh and this this right here this this is kind of the silhouette or kind of the

529
02:55:06.399 --> 02:55:21.439
profile of what the wall is doing. So you kind of see the in and out in and out every course. And then at by the time we get to the top here, we're doing half inch coraling. So it's just a brick supporting itself. Um and then and then horizontally we've got these projecting

530
02:55:21.439 --> 02:55:47.040
pyesters that come out 12 in. And this graphic here was to really kind of like assign a dimension to it. So it's not just in the rendering, but it's kind of showing what we're proposing. What's the fencing on the roof? >> The screening.

531
02:55:47.040 --> 02:56:01.520
>> The fence. >> The glass. >> There's a glass rail. Yeah, >> it's a glass rail. And how tall is that? >> 48 48 in. >> Oh, >> yeah. So, uh you know where we have the terraces up high. Is that right? Uh so

532
02:56:01.520 --> 02:56:19.200
the the the brick the brick comes up uh a couple of feet and then behind that the glazing extends. So, the height of the glazing is going to be 48 in, but it's it's you're not going to see the full 48 inches because the the masonry comes up some and then you've got

533
02:56:19.200 --> 02:56:35.520
glazing on top of that. >> I I think um we we uh we do have uh a detail, although I would admit not super clear. So, like on this in this uh diagram here, I'll zoom in on it a little bit

534
02:56:35.520 --> 02:56:50.880
more. You can kind of see this is a deteras. So the brick comes up uh and then we have the coping. So that comes up 24 in. But the glass rail comes up 4 ft from finish. So it kind of extends up out you know 24 to 30 in above the

535
02:56:50.880 --> 02:57:05.840
brick. And I know we we had talked about um not it it's uh it's not shown in this sketch here, but we had talked about with these brick with these brick masses

536
02:57:05.840 --> 02:57:21.680
kind of celebrate the the the top of it uh some not necessarily a large crown or anything. We started to think through that and so you're seeing kind of the soldier course and how the coping is going to is going to lap over the masonry. This might be this might be a

537
02:57:21.680 --> 02:57:37.359
great place also where we can get a half inch depression just to give the the top band of the masonry a little bit more profile. Uh we talked about how with the corallaying and some of the brick uh courses that we're doing down at the base, it's kind of giving it a lot of

538
02:57:37.359 --> 02:57:54.200
texture and and detail. And so this would be kind of a more subtle approach to it up up at the very top where instead of just having the running ball all the way up, we're just doing a soldier course band at the top and letting the coping leg kind of run down on itself.

539
02:58:00.080 --> 02:58:17.279
Any other questions from the B? Just following our procedures. >> I I have another question. Sorry. No, that's fine. >> Uh, the sophet material, some of the renderings you're showing wood >> and then I think your details I'm only seeing fiber cement. What's your

540
02:58:17.279 --> 02:58:34.319
intention there for the public overhangs at the ground story? >> For the public overhangs at the front uh like where we have this uh main entry along West Main, it's going to be wood. >> Okay. >> Or the wood look and texture. It's not

541
02:58:34.319 --> 02:58:48.880
going to be a wood product. Uh we've got we use uh metal that's got that wood texture just it it it's very durable. It lasts a long time. Uh beyond these main prominent entries where we have the building overhanging on the east and the

542
02:58:48.880 --> 02:59:07.479
west uh we that would be that would be a sedentious product. >> Thank you. >> So seeing this image um actually brings me a question. Are y'all having plantings on the top of the corbling?

543
02:59:08.160 --> 02:59:23.279
>> If it was up to my design team internally, yes, >> if they're watching, >> they sprinkled them in there. >> Um, that is actually something that would be desired internally. Whether or not that depth can support it,

544
02:59:23.279 --> 02:59:39.279
>> questionable. Um, >> we'll see what grows. >> Yes. Right. >> Yeah. And that in in that detail where we've showed the planters, we do have this is one of the areas where we have a little bit of a little bit of a recess. So we actually do have a zone there

545
02:59:39.279 --> 02:59:54.479
behind the parapit where there could be planters that sit there and then the plan would spill over. Uh I think the detail hasn't been worked out, but it's it's done in that location intentionally because we do have the depth to be able to to to do it. It wouldn't be it

546
02:59:54.479 --> 03:00:10.880
wouldn't be a potted type, you know, setup. Not. >> Let's just say it was intentionally added by our leadership. >> Okay. >> Doesn't look like you can get to it, though. >> That's the trick is how do you water it and maintain it? >> You might have to do Can you do irrigation? >> Yeah, you would irrigate. Yeah,

547
03:00:10.880 --> 03:00:29.600
irrigation. And it's not it's not >> It's up to us to figure out. >> Yeah. And it's not very high from a maintenance standpoint. I think you would get to it with a ladder uh when you need to get to it, but you would probably have it have have irrigation. >> I mean, for what it's worth, you do show

548
03:00:29.600 --> 03:00:45.920
some green roofs on your um your precedent images for your uh the >> other other projects. >> It's something we strive for. >> Um just I I one more question I guess um I was thinking back to your wall

549
03:00:45.920 --> 03:01:02.000
sections. I think there were some of the ones we were looking at originally. Um I didn't see any they looked very thin to me, you know. I didn't see any continuous um insulation on the outside. I'm just >> curious about the energy code, how that >> Yeah. >> is all working out.

550
03:01:02.000 --> 03:01:17.680
>> So we h we haven't gotten there yet. Uh we plan to run an energy model. Uh a lot of if we go prescriptive, uh chances are we're going to have to provide the the rigid insulation. I think for this climate, even with the energy model, we

551
03:01:17.680 --> 03:01:33.279
might have to, but a lot of times in in a lot of climates, when we run the energy model based on the performance of the windows and the and the R values of the walls and the roof, sometimes we're able to get out of needing to provide the continuous insulation. We have to

552
03:01:33.279 --> 03:01:49.040
prove it through an energy model before we can we can commit to that. So, right now, we're we we haven't gone through that exercise. It is it is an exercise that we plan to go through if we need the energy model to comply with the energy code requirements. Certainly,

553
03:01:49.040 --> 03:02:05.520
it's going to be included in there. And all of these profiles, um, the easy trim reveals that that I've passed around, uh, those are not, they come in different depths. I think there's a little brochure that comes with it. It kind of shows all the dimensions. They come in they come in all dimensions. So

554
03:02:05.520 --> 03:02:21.680
if you have to do rigid installation, you just we just different profiles and and and it and it it it works with up to like I believe 3 in or 3 and 12 in >> with your cement panels >> w with the rigid insulation behind and f behind the fiber cement if we have to do

555
03:02:21.680 --> 03:02:37.279
it. >> So it's a fiber cement. That was my next question is if you have to use that then it's a fiber cement. >> Yeah. You have it's Z channels attached directly to the sheathing uh that are as deep as the rigid insulation needs to be and then the fiber cement gets installed

556
03:02:37.279 --> 03:03:01.520
directly into that C channel. >> Why not just use ephus? >> Is that allowed? >> Just use that leading question. >> No, I >> I'm watching Jeff's head like smoke. I think just use why not just use a

557
03:03:01.520 --> 03:03:17.439
material that um returns, you know, um easily um doesn't need like a a complicated clip system or you know I I guess um just I don't know that's a little bit of a leading question, but it's but it's also a question. It's just

558
03:03:17.439 --> 03:03:33.760
it's a question that follows this train of thought. >> Yeah. I mean really the options that the option that that that come to mind you know if it's not a cementitious type board it's going to be a stuckco type system uh which you know when you need 2

559
03:03:33.760 --> 03:03:50.720
in if we find out that we need rigid insulation behind the stuckco it would be somewhat similar to an system but uh you can still do a hardcode stuckco on on rigid insulation and that you know that I I I assume that I I believe we

560
03:03:50.720 --> 03:04:09.600
can do eaves by we we couldn't it's not it's not allowed but I could be wrong on that. Um it's just when you don't if you don't need insulation or if you don't need 2 in of insulation then maybe maybe that becomes an overkill. Um I think for you for from

561
03:04:09.600 --> 03:04:27.520
a you know just u maintenance and durability standpoint LV collective would prefer a product like this cement board or in other markets stuckco as an alternative. Now when you when for this type of construction when you get into other

562
03:04:27.520 --> 03:04:44.000
kinds of construction prefab panels there are great EH systems that are very durable and again they they have come a long way compared to like some of the old EFS installs that have caused a lot of issues over the years but for this type of construction when it's not prefab okay

563
03:04:44.000 --> 03:05:00.640
>> tends to be 90% of it tends to be either fiber cement panel or stuckle >> so I think if y'all were to switch materials based on your energy model that would have to come back to us. >> Yes. >> Oh, it wouldn't be we wouldn't switch materials. We would just be putting

564
03:05:00.640 --> 03:05:16.960
insulation >> behind the fiber cement >> which we can't see. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So that's not our >> So that's not our perview. Right. >> Correct. >> Okay. So I don't need to discuss insulation. There you go. >> Yeah. That would just be to comply with energy requirements and that would just be it would it would thicken the

565
03:05:16.960 --> 03:05:33.120
assembly some instead of it being >> towards the interior. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> like thickening towards the interior, not >> or it would it would grow. It would I even if we can't get out of it all together, I I can't imagine we'd need more than an inch inch and a half max.

566
03:05:33.120 --> 03:05:49.920
And I even if that's if the stud holds firm where it is, if that means the the fiber cement panel comes out, it may reduce the change of plane between the masonry and the fiber cement from four and a half inches to 3 and 12 in. It wouldn't be anything that's noticeable.

567
03:05:49.920 --> 03:06:06.880
Give us >> go to the inside. >> No change in dimension. >> Um so I think >> public hearing too. >> Got it. Um does anybody have any other pressing questions

568
03:06:06.880 --> 03:06:23.359
on the B? >> We're going to get to comments in a few. Uh I we're going to call a 10-minute break, bio break. Um after which we'll come back and have uh we'll start with uh comments from the public. We've just ended our questions phase

569
03:06:23.359 --> 03:06:39.760
just so everybody knows. Um we'll start with comments from the public. Um I'd like to invite folks who are here from the public. We got some signup sheets. So during the break if you could come up and uh jot your name down if you'd like to speak. Uh you'll have three minutes to speak. Um and then we'll go to

570
03:06:39.760 --> 03:06:56.800
>> uh then we'll go to comments from the board after that. Also, if you're online watching and you want to comment, maybe go ahead and raise your hand so that staff can see that you would like to um comment and then they can add your name to the signup sheet. Okay, thanks

571
03:06:56.800 --> 03:20:20.399
everybody. We'll take a take a bio break and we'll reconvene at uh 8:20. I'll figure that out. >> All right. >> Sorry, we're a few minutes past, but I think everybody needed a break.

572
03:20:20.399 --> 03:20:36.880
>> Slicing things off, and you're like, I have a little person here. >> All right. You ready? >> All right. >> Great. Uh, thanks everybody. Um, I think that was a good question period. We'll see where our comments go. Um, we are

573
03:20:36.880 --> 03:20:51.920
going to please invite members of the public to comment >> on this project. Thank you. Um, anyone online with the hand raised? >> If anyone online would like to comment,

574
03:20:51.920 --> 03:21:09.040
please raise your hand now. >> I see no hands raised. Okay. Um, then I'll call Brandon Collins. Please come on down. >> Good evening, B. Uh, my name is Brandon Collins. I live in Charlottesville. I've

575
03:21:09.040 --> 03:21:28.080
lived here my whole life. Uh, I, as you may recall, uh, have the very deep honor and privilege of working with our West Haven resident planners. um they're coming up on four years of planning of their uh newly redeveloped community. Um

576
03:21:28.080 --> 03:21:44.720
and uh you know there's a lot to say uh based on the discussion uh I'm going to try to stick to design but I I think overall you know our ask uh is to defer this. Um, I know it's not

577
03:21:44.720 --> 03:22:02.640
necessarily uh your concern that an agreement hasn't fully been fleshed out between the community and LV, but uh that agreement is going to determine sort of the parameters for which resident planners can chime in on

578
03:22:02.640 --> 03:22:18.239
the design, right? And it's not just the so-called memory walk, which is really a connection to West Main Street. We want to incorporate memory into that. Um, and certainly some of that will have an impact visually

579
03:22:18.239 --> 03:22:35.920
uh on the broader community. Um, but there are uh other aspects about the building, particularly the facades on all four sides that our residents are going to want to have some say in what that looks like. uh particularly the north side,

580
03:22:35.920 --> 03:22:52.880
the colors, uh the materials, certainly the plantings. Uh we had a recent discussion with residents about plantings back there. Um we've had past conversations about historic plantings. Um, and so those are all things that

581
03:22:52.880 --> 03:23:09.040
need to get worked out and I don't think the BAR really should move forward with an approval right this second without having the answers to some of those questions. particularly uh the west side the west side

582
03:23:09.040 --> 03:23:25.760
uh facade um when we're talking about potentially having banners hanging down um that facade's going to interact with our connection to West Main Street in the memory walk um the color the feel of that how can we create an openness there

583
03:23:25.760 --> 03:23:41.520
how do we deal with the uh turning into the parking there that black hole that's basically there uh for parking Um, those are all things that are visible from the public from West Main. The entrance of Cox's Row to Main

584
03:23:41.520 --> 03:23:56.960
Street. Uh, what that looks like. You know, what if residents decide we want a whole lot of red brick uh to commemorate West Haven? Don't necessarily want it in our West Haven redevelopment, but we might want to have that as some kind of

585
03:23:56.960 --> 03:24:12.720
incorporated memory, right? And that's something that I think is within the B's purview to uh consider. Um there's a lot more uh reason to defer. Um you know at the bottom line residents still

586
03:24:12.720 --> 03:24:28.000
the whole thing from the get-go is an eyesore which is why we need an agreement and some parameters and we're this close. So, our residents have tried to discuss certain aspects and just can't until they know what they're

587
03:24:28.000 --> 03:24:44.720
working with once there's an agreement with LB. I think we're close. Uh, but I do think um the design changes that will happen as a result will impact this project a lot. And you're not ready to see those.

588
03:24:44.720 --> 03:25:03.160
That's kind of our problem, not yours. Your problem is what this thing is going to look like. And right now you're you're not really going to know what it looks like. So that's all I have. >> Great. Thank you, Mr. Collins. Appreciate that. All right. And then Miss Drifus.

589
03:25:06.319 --> 03:25:21.760
>> Thank you, Emily Drifus. I'm happy legal aid and um I want to roll back my communication about um conversations with the community because I talked with Britney during the break and she tried hard apparently to

590
03:25:21.760 --> 03:25:36.960
get to a resident planners meeting um and not just one and she was put off um to some future point which we will look forward to having happen. Um, and I also encouraged her to talk with residents by

591
03:25:36.960 --> 03:25:53.520
being in the neighborhood and talking with FAR and trying to get more dialogue going because the connecting walkway is really critically important. Um, I think if you could please delay approving this

592
03:25:53.520 --> 03:26:09.359
for both the reasons of the connecting walkway and the landscaping, um, it will really help to keep you all involved and have the residents quality of life have this this body as a checkpoint. Um, and if you can't do

593
03:26:09.359 --> 03:26:26.479
that, if you don't feel like that's possible for you, um, then I think omitting the landscape landscaping and omitting the, um, walkway to come back at a future point. I I really hope that you don't completely drop your role with the

594
03:26:26.479 --> 03:26:42.160
walkway. The solar study is the other thing that really concerns me and I know some of you expressed concerns about that and um getting more pictures because the current residents um assuming that West Haven redevelopment

595
03:26:42.160 --> 03:26:58.960
like most lit processes takes longer than a private development there will be an impact on current residents for probably a year 18 months. So knowing more about what shadows are going to be cast for them as well as for future residents would be really helpful.

596
03:26:58.960 --> 03:27:16.720
Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Dus. Anyone else? Okay, you're good. All right. Uh then we will go to comments from the B. Uh Jerry, you want to go for it? Start us

597
03:27:16.720 --> 03:27:34.960
off. One thing um I would hope that uh they could provide perspective from West Haven to give to staff to help with uh with the plantings

598
03:27:34.960 --> 03:27:51.680
and other aspects. And so that's something I would like to see from LV just going to staff. Uh I I don't think it needs to come back to us, but I think it would be a a useful

599
03:27:51.680 --> 03:28:14.560
thing. >> Anybody else want to dive in? >> I I'm always happy to talk. >> Got it. Um I so I I I hear the um the public and wanting the wanting us to defer, but I also feel like if we go ahead and

600
03:28:14.560 --> 03:28:31.279
approve or deny or just vote on it tonight with um on what we've got before us, um it does allow um the um West Haven residents, they don't have to rush and try and get something figured out the next week to

601
03:28:31.279 --> 03:28:49.200
then come back to us. So instead, something basic could be voted on and um that if it's approved, that would mean that, you know, the um applicant could work with residents and take their time, come up with a a good plan, and then it

602
03:28:49.200 --> 03:29:05.200
all comes back to us and B gets to look at it again. Um, I would hope that we wouldn't put too heavy a hand on whatever the residents come up with, but um, still it would give us a chance to be involved again. Um, so

603
03:29:05.200 --> 03:29:21.279
I think we, you know, we spent an hour and some odd amount of time asking questions. I'm feeling more comfortable with what we've got in front of us as being a complete application. So, I would be in favor of having a vote tonight. um some conditions I would put

604
03:29:21.279 --> 03:29:40.160
on there. I think as far as the um the hopefully soon to be memory walk that area. Um I think we approved the sidewalk and the driveway and the pedestrian lighting that shows up on the plan but the um the ballards and the catinary lights um all that I think just

605
03:29:40.160 --> 03:29:55.600
we assume it's not there and when it's added later it comes back to us. um the trellis I think because we don't have any information on it. We assume it's not there and when it's finally designed it comes back to us and we see it. Um

606
03:29:55.600 --> 03:30:12.160
I do think we I want to push for some some shade trees, some big trees in the back. I don't know what site plan implications you guys have, but I think my my recommendation would be um well I I emailed all of you the transition screens. I don't know if you had a chance to see that. Um we've got a print

607
03:30:12.160 --> 03:30:28.000
I can circulate this printed copy. There's a note passed to me that I was waiting till our comments period. But yes, basically um in the development code chapter 34, there are transition screens. Um in this particular case, it

608
03:30:28.000 --> 03:30:44.560
would not be required by code. However, we can use this as sort of a uh this is what our intent might be. And so, and it was shown on the screen uh earlier this evening, the potentially transition screen high- two um is sort of the I

609
03:30:44.560 --> 03:31:00.960
guess the tallest and deepest of a transition planting plan, which provides for tall trees and larger shrubs. Um 20 foot depth minimum um etc. So, like >> I I would be okay with a moderate two.

610
03:31:00.960 --> 03:31:16.160
the moderate >> because what that gives you is two large trees per 50 ft. So, one large tree every 25 ft. Okay. >> An evergreen tree every 25 ft and then five shrubs which I think spaced out kind of matches a little bit what the what the site plan was showing.

611
03:31:16.160 --> 03:31:32.000
>> Okay. Um but that would be that's my thought just so that if folks haven't had a chance to pull up their email yet, they can see them. Um, I do think this is a good mechanism for us to to give guidance on that landscape area. Um, and

612
03:31:32.000 --> 03:31:47.760
also address some of the concerns we've heard from the community tonight about screening. >> Um, go just I want to make a clarification that so everyone again you all folks here and

613
03:31:47.760 --> 03:32:02.880
folks listening understand. So, when I was referring to the landscaping plan and uh omitting that if necessary, uh again, I'm not talking about a community design memory walk. I'm talking about

614
03:32:02.880 --> 03:32:18.880
the trees at that back or the tree selection or shrub selections. I know I'm sorry, not allowed to say shrubs, plant selections. I'm not suggesting that a, you know, it's up to LV Collective if they want to engage and

615
03:32:18.880 --> 03:32:34.800
talk about what kind of plants to put at the back. But, um, I'm just simply saying that if we can't decide the spacing of the trees or what type of trees or, you know, which screening, you know, variation will be >> you have a condition on there. They certainly need to be native species and

616
03:32:34.800 --> 03:32:51.040
selected from the city's approved. So just make sure really clear when I say landscaping plan I'm not talking about >> I'm not talking hardcape. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> And I I don't I don't want to there's some parts of it I think I'd like to get baked into the approval just in case.

617
03:32:51.040 --> 03:33:06.399
>> Gotcha. Gotcha. >> I just if it gets built we need to have something there. >> Got I don't >> I want to make sure that happens. Right. >> Like the Doyle Hotel drives me nuts every time I walk by there. But wouldn't we be able to just require them to come back with a landscaping plan to be required

618
03:33:06.399 --> 03:33:23.040
as part of the condition here as opposed to specifying any screening or anything like that? >> Could I my preference is not to, but we can we can do that if others want to. >> My preference would be for it to come back fully. I think landscape is much more than just plants.

619
03:33:23.040 --> 03:33:39.920
I think there's there's visual connection. There's spatial character. um their circulation. I think there's just defining you know number of plants within a certain area just feels very limiting.

620
03:33:39.920 --> 03:33:54.960
>> I also don't think we got enough information about the memory walk about the ballards about the easement that goes around to the cell tower. I know it's sounds extreme because we've been working on this and I think there's a lot of support for this application. I

621
03:33:54.960 --> 03:34:12.319
would propose that we approve everything except for the memory walk, a landscape plan, a hardscape plan that even even details in the plaza you were basically calling out verbally that were different than what was submitted. I'm not criticizing. I'm just saying but it all

622
03:34:12.319 --> 03:34:28.319
is connected, you know, in some way. the the the memory walk presentation, for lack of a better word, apron at at the street front at West Main, you know, connects the materials will continue and be the same as used in the memory walk

623
03:34:28.319 --> 03:34:45.760
itself and maybe, you know, maybe the pedestrian walk will be contrasting and then the easement will also need to be connected and landscaping the back and probably even around um I guess the east side. I mean, I just see it as one continuum of things to where I don't

624
03:34:45.760 --> 03:35:02.640
know how we can approve one of those elements tonight, you know, just kind of bifurcating it. So, I would I I would advocate. >> Yeah. and just it would be a separate CO later and and certainly at maybe at the

625
03:35:02.640 --> 03:35:20.239
you know if there I I think that would give the applicant options if they if the if the planning of the memory walk didn't didn't go forward quickly and it needs to take more time you know for both parties you could come back and give us some landscape and hardscape and

626
03:35:20.239 --> 03:35:36.399
you know that could be a separate co um but I think those are the those only like it's just really hard for us to approve something and say, "Well, we're just kind of approving a blank slate or we're approving the bare minimum or what the zoning code currently may require."

627
03:35:36.399 --> 03:35:53.120
That's that's not the best job that we can do. Um, and we've got some real expertise on this board that I think could, you know, with more discussion and more time could could really refine those elements. >> So, I'm going to interrupt again. So

628
03:35:53.120 --> 03:36:08.720
the development plan does include a landscape plan. So I can't can't sign off on the development plan if there's not a COA for the landscape plan. I'm just saying if it was absolute impass that's a means to an end. U I >> we're not we don't choose the development plan. We're we do a

629
03:36:08.720 --> 03:36:24.479
certificate of appropriateness. >> You right and I can't approve I can't put my signature on the development plan until there's an approved COA. Well, >> there are lots of conditions on that development plan right now. So, I mean, you know, like we said,

630
03:36:24.479 --> 03:36:39.760
>> and all those have to be met. I'm just saying that if you if to to to suspend a >> I thought we were in a comments from I thought >> I'm trying to help with your discussion, but okay. >> We agree for what it's worth. If I can say that I agree with everything that's being said, >> okay,

631
03:36:39.760 --> 03:36:56.160
>> and we are immutable to that. I'd like to know why from Jeff if if he personally objects to this why we couldn't have a separate CO for the elements that I've named. >> Well, I did not >> we've done it before. >> He's he suggested it to begin with. >> I'm not objecting to anything. >> Okay.

632
03:36:56.160 --> 03:37:11.840
>> At all. I'm simply saying that >> only because >> for a development plan review and I know this is so just pointing out the fact here that um I mean if there was if to you approved the COA for the building that's that's fine they know

633
03:37:11.840 --> 03:37:26.720
that they can move forward with that. That doesn't allow me to sign off on the development plan which is a a a a piece of this. So I just want to be clear about that. I'm not trying to sway. I just want to be clear about that. Jeff, can you

634
03:37:26.720 --> 03:37:43.120
>> So I understand the development plan doesn't have to be finalized until they go for a building permit. Correct. >> A site plan has to be finalized, but a development plan, the way the ordinance is written, it's to create a

635
03:37:43.120 --> 03:37:59.680
a zoning um compatibility document. It's essential a document says this thing meets the code of >> but I guess my question is if if we set if we take the all the landscaping out of this all the site planning all the heartscapes everything out of this

636
03:37:59.680 --> 03:38:14.960
application and it becomes a separate COA um are we slowing them down in a way that like are we are we damaging the process or is it still going to be something that >> you're not damaging my process it's just simply that I could not sign off on the

637
03:38:14.960 --> 03:38:31.359
development plan signatures necessary to say that this development plan is consistent with the COA >> but sequentially it's not going to disrupt the timing of their the development of their project. >> Maybe the applicant would like to yeah >> we are switching from the development

638
03:38:31.359 --> 03:38:46.239
plan to the site plan anyway. So there is no development plan. We will be going for the site plan and we do not need that until building permit. So it allows us enough time. I think this is a great in between solution to allow for that community development and to hold LV

639
03:38:46.239 --> 03:39:02.000
accountable to actually get it on the plans before building permit. >> Thank you. >> That was my question. >> Okay, that was the biggie. So, thank you. Yeah, >> sounds good. Um, so it sound so with that in mind, it sounds like if we

640
03:39:02.000 --> 03:39:17.920
wanted to move ahead with some sort of motion or vote, then that we would essentially just be excluding the the site plan. >> Yeah. Okay. All right. >> Which would include the memory walk at that point, right?

641
03:39:17.920 --> 03:39:34.560
>> The memory walk we're not doesn't exist. It would >> or do we never look at the memory walk? >> Not tonight. We didn't. We will look at it when they come back with come back with >> well again I'm I'll refer to the staff report >> if they choose to >> if they choose to include the memory >> we will have to approve a site plan

642
03:39:34.560 --> 03:39:49.520
>> you have to do something >> whatever that is >> I think that's a very doable >> compromise >> and it doesn't it it avoids the the collision of where again you used to say we're approving the the height but we're

643
03:39:49.520 --> 03:40:05.600
not approving the design um these are separate things and I and I I I can I can be >> there's a reasonable approach here. Um >> so just >> go ahead keep going. But before you make

644
03:40:05.600 --> 03:40:19.439
a motion, let me more to talk about before. >> Right. Good. Good. >> Um I'm sorry, Kate. >> But we had lots of Go ahead. >> No, you go. >> I was going to say we had we had lots of questions that we asked, but we didn't necessarily circle back to saying what

645
03:40:19.439 --> 03:40:36.000
we felt about those things. So, um, for example, the brick. Um, in terms of our palette, um, I know some of y'all were looking at those. Personally, I kind of like the yellowish tone brick.

646
03:40:36.000 --> 03:40:52.960
Uh, just me, but you know, I think I want to hear what other people have to say. If y'all disagree, disagree. But, um, >> I don't know. >> I have no issues with the pallet in general. Okay. You know, I think they're uh I'm okay with there being some

647
03:40:52.960 --> 03:41:09.600
flexibility as long as it's within that range that they >> Maybe that's a better way. >> I didn't care for the butter and yellow. So, we would we would cancel each other out. >> I just don't I don't I just don't know where it reminds me anyway. It I I don't

648
03:41:09.600 --> 03:41:26.640
know where we where else we see that color in the city of Charlottesville. I can I just I don't It It reminds me of an old federal institutional building. Sorry. >> Sorry. >> It looks DC to me. >> Um I guess there's I'm not hearing

649
03:41:26.640 --> 03:41:42.160
objections to the pallet per se. >> Correct. >> Um I think stylistically I like where y'all headed with the building. I I really liked the articulation of some of the brick work, especially the vertical um in the field where like you had

650
03:41:42.160 --> 03:41:58.080
mentioned where you've got restrooms um or bathrooms. I think that's really helpful to kind of help give the facade some texture. It kind of to me there's some hints of like art deco detailing going on. um which you know I would

651
03:41:58.080 --> 03:42:13.439
encourage you, you know, in some of the storefront openings you kind of had a little almost um curved uh edging at those openings. I thought that was really handsome. Um so I appre appreciate y'all kind of adding in sprinkling in some of those levels of

652
03:42:13.439 --> 03:42:28.160
details. Um like we had talked about last time with the qual brick. Um you picked up on my uh ask a little bit for the cornice up higher by switching to the soldier course. I agree. I think if you could step it out a little bit just to give some shadow line that'd be

653
03:42:28.160 --> 03:42:44.160
great. Um Um so that's I don't know that's just me on brick real quick. Um any other thoughts on brick or the hardy plank fiber cement board? >> Yeah,

654
03:42:44.160 --> 03:42:58.640
>> now's your time. >> I don't I'm I don't know what's So I appreciate the fact that the brick is we're people are going to see the building up close. It's brick. So, I'm usually I'm I hate fiber cement and the

655
03:42:58.640 --> 03:43:16.080
hardy plank stuff just really it's even when it's prefinished. Um we have other buildings around town where it's not just that it gets kind of wonky over time which I think your your reveal system will help with. Um but it does um I don't know if it collects dirt and the dirt then mildws or if it just the

656
03:43:16.080 --> 03:43:32.880
material itself mildw but um the um I think it's the lark. Yeah, the the lark that's kind of caddyy corner to all this stuff on 10th Street. Um that sighting has it's got mildew all over it and it's it's less than 10 years old. So, um but

657
03:43:32.880 --> 03:43:49.359
I I don't know if I I think yeah, Jeff will explode if I start asking for ephus or stucco or anything like that. So, um, yeah, I think I'm gonna I'm gonna back down on that just because again, I do appreciate the fact that you're wrapping most of the building with the brick, at

658
03:43:49.359 --> 03:44:07.199
least for the lower levels. Um, so I >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I'm going to let it go. >> There's two elements to that that I think you've got working in your favor. If you use the smooth, uh, that holds up a lot better as far as, uh, picking up because I've seen that, too, picking up dust and mildew. And then I I think the,

659
03:44:07.199 --> 03:44:22.880
uh, channel system that you're using is a good one. Um, so I mean that's where usually you see these things looking kind of cheesy is when the uh the extrusions aren't um big enough. >> I think it also goes back just to your point in the previous project about I

660
03:44:22.880 --> 03:44:38.640
mean there are different qualities of all these products and I mean the Hardy is a kind of a residential product. I mean it's there are better cement panels that you can choose from. Um I certainly prefer them. I would love it. Like I

661
03:44:38.640 --> 03:44:55.359
love I mean first of all I just want to applaud you for being open to the process. You've listened you know you've really come back and and try to respond to feedback. I app I I I was sorry to hear that there wasn't more communication um between you and the you know and the

662
03:44:55.359 --> 03:45:11.600
community because when we left the last time I felt like there were both sides were here and we kind of heard each other and so I felt like it was the start of that and I was I was hoping I was looking forward to hearing what what would come of that and so I was a little disappointed when I heard that there

663
03:45:11.600 --> 03:45:27.520
nothing had come of it. That being said, um you know, when we took our break, you there was a re-engagement of communication, which was fantastic, you know, and it sounds like there's a there's a path forward to that. And so in a way that led to this um you know um

664
03:45:27.520 --> 03:45:44.000
a willingness and what seems right from all of us to to separate the landscape to give that a more of a chance to develop so we don't have to make decisions about the landscape, you know, or or or um recommend a really kind of a

665
03:45:44.000 --> 03:46:02.080
standard and not sensitive solution like well just make sure you screen it sort of thing. That's not what we want to do here. We want to want this to be as rich as it can be and that's only going to come from communicating to one another. Anyway, all that being said, that's not really our purview in a way here. Um,

666
03:46:02.080 --> 03:46:18.000
we're just looking at the building now. Um, and just so just getting back to the cement panel thing, I mean, I I agree with Carl. I I don't I don't like it. Um, especially in a um on a on a kind of a what should be a class A building.

667
03:46:18.000 --> 03:46:36.160
This is our main street. Um, and um, it's a piece of civic architecture. Everybody's going to see it um, all the time. And um, it's a big building, so um, you know, um, the for me the the vinyl window is a is an issue, too.

668
03:46:36.160 --> 03:46:52.080
>> Um, I I grudgingly approved the previous one. Um, but that was a two-story little 1950s, you know, they needed new windows, so what are you going to do? But in this case, um, I I wish there was

669
03:46:52.080 --> 03:47:07.520
a sort of a sense of, um, appreciation of quality that that would be instilled in these kinds of projects. Um, you know, these kind of um, and and very public facing projects. Um, that being

670
03:47:07.520 --> 03:47:23.760
said, like again, I go back to the priority for me is the fact that you did listen and that you did provide um a good amount of good material, true brick, you know, and you've come up with some interesting detailing um that I

671
03:47:23.760 --> 03:47:40.399
think um adds to the richness of this experience. Um so um so you know again I I appreciate that um and I think you know everybody on the board does here because this is a process that we want to we want to work and we want it to

672
03:47:40.399 --> 03:47:57.359
work for the betterment of uh the community. I would say that um per the comments a condition I'd like to you know if we do um vote on a condition that I would like to apply would be the sun studies make

673
03:47:57.359 --> 03:48:15.720
sure that um those are included um in the follow-up report I think that's an important issue that we should delve into a little bit more and there was there was some more information that probably could have been um looked at in that regard

674
03:48:16.640 --> 03:48:33.279
Um >> I I agree that um deferring the landscape is the right move. I personally don't feel comfortable with the level of detail for any of the landscape in particular the front building uh front

675
03:48:33.279 --> 03:48:50.239
of the building on Main Street. Um, I think when you come back with those details, it would be really helpful to see detailed sections through that stair the stairways, the kind of seats, um, the planting there because I I feel like

676
03:48:50.239 --> 03:49:06.479
>> the amount of talking that happened and not just reviewing drawings about that was a kind of a tip off for me that that was just not enough information. Um, same with, you know, the elements that you're proposing in the back, the trellis, the specific trees, you know,

677
03:49:06.479 --> 03:49:22.960
or at least a detailed description of the kind of massing of trees that you're planning to plant there. Um, um, the sun studies you've provided, uh, a lot of the community members have spoken about that already, but it's it's hard

678
03:49:22.960 --> 03:49:38.479
to read those, especially because of the slope behind the building. So, you're just showing that in plan, but I think what would really be helpful is to show kind of facade studies of, you know, the massing of the proposed West Haven buildings. I'm not sure how solidified

679
03:49:38.479 --> 03:49:55.439
that is yet, but assuming there's a number of stories that they plan to have there. It'd be nice to see how that uh the shadows from the LV building will pass across those facades. Um, >> I just have a really important comment

680
03:49:55.439 --> 03:50:10.640
on study specifically >> if we do get to a vote and we are separating the site plan from it how will the >> so I I was going to say that in as much as it'll help them with whatever planning they're doing um

681
03:50:10.640 --> 03:50:26.319
>> you know I think that would be part of the process of engagement >> okay >> moving forward >> fair enough >> it also potentially could impact planting selection >> if it's going to be a formal condition I would just kind of want to make that clear because that for sure

682
03:50:26.319 --> 03:50:42.880
>> mean a lot of things. >> It's not I'm not suggesting that you change the massing of the building but like we said landscaping and just planning. >> Yeah. The note as I wrote it earlier was a a shade study to be provided. Um, and

683
03:50:42.880 --> 03:50:59.199
you all could decide whether or not but showing uh 9:00 a.m., noon, 3:00 p.m. and 6 p.m. uh and to assist uh with plant selection on site and provide information for the West Haven um landscaping,

684
03:50:59.199 --> 03:51:15.439
>> the West Haven neighborhood plan. >> So, you can leave off March or September, one or the other. Right. Yeah. >> So, it's providing it to providing it to staff. It's not December. >> It's not presented for approval. It's provided for information, right?

685
03:51:15.439 --> 03:51:31.760
>> Um for an hour and a half. >> Um I also I guess you've already done the phase one archaeological study. Has that been provided to staff? >> I'm not sure. It may have before my time, but we do provide it. Okay. As a part of the site plan.

686
03:51:31.760 --> 03:51:50.160
>> Great. Um, in general, I'd say I think I'm in support of the architecture of the building. I think it's um I agree with my colleagues about the comments about materials. Um, and vinyl windows, fiber

687
03:51:50.160 --> 03:52:07.840
cement, um, those things. Um, this is a really important building. It's right on the corner of a major throat affair, you know, main street. Um, and we see so many we see all the sides of the building. So, I think it's just a really important moment in our city and it

688
03:52:07.840 --> 03:52:23.600
should respond to that position appropriately with materials. Um, I think those are my only comments. Oh, the last thing I wanted to say is like the the sections that you've provided. I think the one with the kind

689
03:52:23.600 --> 03:52:41.359
of red line of the section cut showing the hill is really really helpful, but I' I'd like to see more detailed sections through the the pedestrian walkway on the west side of the building and also just that where the property line is like where the roadway lands in

690
03:52:41.359 --> 03:52:59.199
that sloped section back there. It's just really hard to really understand that right now. So, thanks. >> You want to go Jen? just pull your mic down. >> So, I'm really excited that we've all

691
03:52:59.199 --> 03:53:14.160
kind of come to this conclusion about the site plan and I'm really really appreciative that you are on board with that. Um, you know, I I appreciate your intent, but we cannot vote on the intent. So, that's I'm just really

692
03:53:14.160 --> 03:53:31.760
pleased that's come down to this. Um, so you know, I was just noting this really robust conversation about architecture and windows and and and brick and I was just sad sitting over here, you know, wishing I could talk about the planting or talk about the the sidewalk or talk

693
03:53:31.760 --> 03:53:46.560
about, you know, something I just not having enough to do. So, I'm I know I'm I'm excited to that you'll be looking and and be able to provide more detail on that. Um I think I just want to emphasize that

694
03:53:46.560 --> 03:54:03.680
more study and collaboration occur between the two um spaces. I think um you have there's like a wedge of planting and I think that's an opportunity to look at you know accessibility. I know if there's a there's like a switchback walk at West

695
03:54:03.680 --> 03:54:19.199
Haven. Like it'd be really cool if that walk could continue to create, you know, up into the space so that there is I'm just worried that there's going to be this real effort on West Haven's part to make an accessibility and that it's going to come into the site and not be. So, I just want to see some effort to

696
03:54:19.199 --> 03:54:34.160
collaborate and I think it's great that Water Street's on both um and that you can do that. So I really encourage that collaboration um at that at that interface between those spaces that transition space. Um

697
03:54:34.160 --> 03:54:49.600
um the I think in in spirit of collaboration I think that there should be some connectivity between things like lighting, furnishings, planting, paving for both spaces so that it feels like it's more connected. And again with

698
03:54:49.600 --> 03:55:04.720
Water Street doing both I think you have a great opportunity and efficiency to be able to do that. Um one thing that didn't come up is um I think there's a bus stop right there on West Main Street in front of the building. So I think it would be great when you are looking at

699
03:55:04.720 --> 03:55:20.800
the the the landscape in front to think about um how people I know that's a city right away but just to think about accommodating for um people waiting. I think people will be coming up and so just considerations for that. I'm excited that there's going to be, you

700
03:55:20.800 --> 03:55:35.760
know, the phase one work will be done. I'm really curious as a person does cultural landscape preservation to see if there's any findings in the phase one um sections um and perspectives. I think I

701
03:55:35.760 --> 03:55:52.399
would like to see when you come back and Kate brought it up to a section through that that west side at a at a more detailed scale. Um I can't really see what the conditions will be between the sidewalk and the street and the wall. Um so I'd like to see more sections

702
03:55:52.399 --> 03:56:07.840
um and maybe even studying them in section. Um I'm concerned about the grass pavers on that west side. um that it's going to be mostly in shade and I'm grass pavers just don't often work. Um and it being

703
03:56:07.840 --> 03:56:24.239
in shade it it'll make it even less likely. So I'm just I just want to encourage you to revisit that. Um the planting is suggested plant pallet. So I'm not going to really comment on the plant pallet because it's it's not really the plant pellet. I think um

704
03:56:24.239 --> 03:56:39.840
again Water Street is killer at planting as as Dave knows very well. Um, so I think they're going to be a great asset to you when it comes to planting. Um, I just want to go on record. I hope there's a significant budget for the

705
03:56:39.840 --> 03:56:55.600
landscape. Um, I, you know, I I I worry sometimes when I see site plans like this in my own work that it means that all the money is going to the building and none of it's going to the landscape. So, I just want to like say I really hope that there is being set aside a good budget for the landscape for the

706
03:56:55.600 --> 03:57:12.560
memory walk. Um, larger trees on the back definitely more screening. Um, viewshed studies I think are important. Um, the perspective the model views were done from really far back. I would like to see a view of the

707
03:57:12.560 --> 03:57:28.640
back of the building um just to to see I think that will you could combine a viewshed study and a solar study together um to look at how the shade conditions will be and again I'm not I'm not I'm not commenting on the building itself. I just think those shade studies are important and then those those those

708
03:57:28.640 --> 03:57:44.800
views I think the intention is to have a clear view to to West Main and I just want to see what that looks like. Um >> I didn't think so. And then um you know this this section is um on West Main is more open. >> It's got more open space than other

709
03:57:44.800 --> 03:58:01.279
sections of West Main. And I know the intention is to is to build up um more building more residents >> um there. But um I do I just I just want to emphasize the the importance of open open space and that and that memory walk that opening can can be really beautiful

710
03:58:01.279 --> 03:58:16.720
and celebrated and and really invite I think not just to bringing West Haven people out to the street but encouraging the public to go back into that space and to really be a place where the community can engage. And so I just want to you know emphasize that open space is

711
03:58:16.720 --> 03:58:35.120
important. >> That's it. Good summary. Thank you. Um, one other just thinking about the site plan. I forgot to ask this question, but at that I guess northwest corner, you know, you'd mentioned the need for vehicular

712
03:58:35.120 --> 03:58:50.399
access to the cell tower, but also potentially uh emergency vehicles and whatnot, like just making sure you got the turning radius for a firetruck or something like that. >> Um, just double because that may impact the site plan a little bit. Um there's

713
03:58:50.399 --> 03:59:05.920
also a couple um suggested conditions from staff um that I'm just going to we could we could work those into a motion eventually, but basically talking about ground level mechanical equipment,

714
03:59:05.920 --> 03:59:21.199
making sure that those are screened um per the design guidelines >> that would be deferred into >> that's part of the site plan. So yeah, so I don't think we'll put those in this because it would be but just as a reminder making sure those things are screened properly. Also anything meters,

715
03:59:21.199 --> 03:59:37.040
panel boxes, cable connections, can any of that sort of stuff get um put in the garage uh as much as possible? I guess we'd like to see those things going into the garage. Um and if not then similarly needs to be screened per the design

716
03:59:37.040 --> 03:59:52.640
guidelines. Um there's sort of a reminder that um any signage would have to go through the approval process for a signed permit which is not through us but still working through neighborhood development services. Um

717
03:59:52.640 --> 04:00:09.040
there's a note about the glass at street level storefronts doors, windows, transoms must be clear with a BLT of not less than 70%. Um I guess that would apply. So we'd probably work that into our motion. um

718
04:00:09.040 --> 04:00:24.560
seating tables, planters, that's part of the state plan. So, I just wanted to hit those real quick before we forgot them. Also, >> not to say that I'm squashing any more further comments. And the um second bullet on page three, the first paragraph had to do they've

719
04:00:24.560 --> 04:00:42.239
addressed that with um the solid >> um brick wall outside the garage um on the West Haven side, but um there's also a suggestion that um any um that anything be dimmable if it is shining

720
04:00:42.239 --> 04:00:57.680
towards that area um you know down onto West Haven. We're happy to do that. It was more so the second part of the the statement that was a little troubling. Um I would just maybe ask that we could work through any

721
04:00:57.680 --> 04:01:13.359
resolution with staff if there are any concerns expressed but also with the brick. >> I don't know how that works. The dimmable is very easy. It's >> yeah I I only meant to talk about any exterior lights on that back portion

722
04:01:13.359 --> 04:01:29.040
>> but the the complaints about public you know public complaints that's outside of our purview anyway. So >> okay that was my >> yeah we were confused by that too >> but I mean I guess site lighting >> which would include ex does that include exterior building lights. >> So I would suggest that all of the

723
04:01:29.040 --> 04:01:46.640
conditions that I've suggested you know they they become associated with this project. So mention them now. Um and >> and to be clear on the lighting um this is it's a unique set of conditions that we've applied in entrance corridor

724
04:01:46.640 --> 04:02:04.880
and on bar to large scale projects and particular large scale projects with um um sorry I was trying to draft some of these conditions so that you had them but the let's walk through excuse me walk through what I noted here. So yeah,

725
04:02:04.880 --> 04:02:20.800
the the the ground level mechanical equipment, utility meter boxes, etc. Screening that's um pretty boilerplate stuff, but it just puts it in there on record. Mirrors, panel boxes, u location >> puts it on record. No problem with that.

726
04:02:20.800 --> 04:02:38.880
>> Uh the lighting, so I don't mind if you all want to reward this or fix my grammar, but it's it is directly from what we used for um the verve. We used it for 2005 JBA. We used it. >> Okay. The second portion starting with

727
04:02:38.880 --> 04:02:54.239
additionally, >> what's I'm sorry. starting with the word additionally >> but deleting the part about public complaints because that's >> well and that's in there because um and that's a that one's been vetted quite a bit because that actually the bigger

728
04:02:54.239 --> 04:03:11.520
concern is that um where uh we do have um and this is I'm trying to address here both you know now our code now requires lighting with the color temperature that we've had no issues

729
04:03:11.520 --> 04:03:28.160
with glare. So, I really it it's it solves some of that. Okay. But it is it is a as much as anything, it's the the applicant and developer acknowledging that, you know, if you built your garage and all a sudden light is blasting out

730
04:03:28.160 --> 04:03:44.000
of it and people are having an issue with it, they're acknowledging that they'll work with us. It's uh so maybe it's a goodwill statement. Um, but it's and then it comes down to if now the fact

731
04:03:44.000 --> 04:03:59.439
that those garage openings on the east are going to be closed up. Uh, but if you've got the light I mean there's one thing you have vehicle lights coming in and out. >> Everything but the east. >> What's that? >> I think they're closed up everywhere but the east.

732
04:03:59.439 --> 04:04:15.520
>> Okay. And so, you know, and I but if somebody says, "Gosh, I can't there's the interior lighting on those because remember our code doesn't regulate interior lighting, >> right?" >> So, if they go in and put, you know, 7,000K um LED >> so,

733
04:04:15.520 --> 04:04:31.600
you know, and Tim and Tim Moore calls me and says, you know, from his house up in parks, he can see it. >> Part of my question was more related to the light fixtures themselves. I know that site lighting will be part of the site plan. Are exterior building mounted lights part of the site plan typically

734
04:04:31.600 --> 04:04:47.040
or no? >> They are if they're part, you know, if they're um >> because we didn't really see >> like the light packs that, you know, there are required light packs, but >> uh most of what we've seen are can lights, you know, or maybe some but unless

735
04:04:47.040 --> 04:05:01.359
>> you didn't see any cut sheets on, >> but nothing shown here. >> Well, they had some in the renderings that were pretty decorative. >> Yeah. So if it's a decorative light, so there's the light fixture and then there's the lamping. So I'm this condition here is addressing the lamping. Yeah, I'm good with that. The

736
04:05:01.359 --> 04:05:17.920
light fixtures. >> Uh I mean the lesson typically reviewed. >> Yeah. What would you what would you >> like what's we don't really go to the guidelines. We don't really have a you know what's a

737
04:05:17.920 --> 04:05:35.279
>> can that be a staff level review item? Well, I I just look at the lamping and now if they come in and they've got ornate chandeliers dangling from these uh you know openings that's something I didn't you know I'm going to have a question about that. But um it just

738
04:05:35.279 --> 04:05:52.640
really has not been an issue and it's something yeah we will see it'll be on the building permit or like I said they come out and it's something it's really obnoxious. >> There's something in the ordinance about night sky isn't there? Well, that's about that's the lamping and so yeah, so that's covered

739
04:05:52.640 --> 04:06:09.439
>> just lamping that's >> that's cut off like there needs to be cut off on full cut off right full cut off and that's required. No. >> So, whatever, you know, street lights or wall packs they have to put on there. Um, but if they, you know, like I said,

740
04:06:09.439 --> 04:06:27.040
do something ornamental on those canopies in the front and it's really egregious. Uh, yeah, I might say, I got to go ask the B about this. >> Are we requiring I mean, seems like sight lighting and furnishings are part of >> So, my my suggestion is that the Yeah.

741
04:06:27.040 --> 04:06:42.800
that they we emit the uh the planting pallet, the paving pallet, um the um site furniture. >> Can't read my own writing. Um >> it's the same because it's a different >> omitting everything outside the building footprint,

742
04:06:42.800 --> 04:06:58.080
>> right? No, I I want to be specific and I so I'm referring to the P the sample plant pallet, the paving pallet, external lighting and site furnishings um as indicated on sheets 8 9 10 11 and 12. this

743
04:06:58.080 --> 04:07:13.520
>> I guess I would say um we should include like something about the stairs you know there's not just the palette of the paving like meaning color selection but like the >> the detail >> design of the stairs >> um you know again I go to the you know

744
04:07:13.520 --> 04:07:30.880
how far down how much detail do you all want to get into and referring to the guidelines like to you know how >> I'm okay with everything outside the building footprint >> yeah well I I'm I'm trying to at least

745
04:07:30.880 --> 04:07:47.680
if I keep it in a very small box, then someone's not going to yell at me for excluding a bunch of stuff. So >> include building lighting at the at the first level to the site package. >> It's actually our action >> and our choice. >> Yeah, I would. >> Let me just say that Jeff I mean Jeff

746
04:07:47.680 --> 04:08:03.279
shouldn't be blamed for something that we did that wasn't in the guard rails, >> you know. God. And Kate shouldn't either. So if we make a an error tonight, it's squarely on us. >> Sure. Like that recess wall lighting,

747
04:08:03.279 --> 04:08:19.359
pedestrian pole lights. That's the that's only sight lighting I see. >> And right the applicant's just suggestion right now. I wouldn't mind the uh pedestrian >> uh level building lighting to be

748
04:08:19.359 --> 04:08:34.800
included. I I can think of some examples pretty close to this project. >> Yeah. Well, they haven't really shown any exterior work. That's right. I was going to say I don't see any, so I don't know what. >> Just my point is we typically do see a

749
04:08:34.800 --> 04:08:51.920
cut sheet of a proposed exterior light fixture. We didn't see one tonight. I think it'd be great to see that. And if it's easy to include it in the site plan package, great. >> Like, let's just weave it into that. >> Um, it it will be it it will be Yes.

750
04:08:51.920 --> 04:09:06.479
Yeah. You're using site plan in a different way than I'm using it. But yes, >> uh >> I I have one further thing. First of all, I'd like to commend staff. That was a lot of work

751
04:09:06.479 --> 04:09:23.760
>> that you guys had to do. like to commend LV because I think you guys did listen and brought back really reasonable stuff for us to deal with and that you're being very flexible with our suggestions

752
04:09:23.760 --> 04:09:40.399
here. And I go back to Sherry's uh idea of separating out those items that we approve basically the building and leave out these other things and the

753
04:09:40.399 --> 04:09:56.640
ideas that Jeff has articulated I think need to be put in our COA that we do. And I also want to commend the members of the of the bar for their thoughtful

754
04:09:56.640 --> 04:10:11.600
comments and helping to move this forward in a positive way. >> Um, I also want to compliment and thank the public and especially the West Haven community for coming out uh at both of our pre-lication conferences and

755
04:10:11.600 --> 04:10:28.880
tonight. Um, so I know it's been, you know, it's been a a tough one a little bit, but I think that we're starting to get to a good place. I want to appreciate LV Collective again from between the first meeting and second and reducing the height of the building um,

756
04:10:28.880 --> 04:10:44.080
from 11 stories to nine on the front and down to six on the rear. Um, I think that was definitely helpful. I know that there may be some members of the public wish it was lower, but I think that's that's a compromise, right? league, you have to kind of um everyone has to give

757
04:10:44.080 --> 04:11:00.239
a little and take a little. So, um appreciate y'all willing to do that. Um any other comments? I think we're ready to try and craft some sort of motion. >> Um >> craft away. >> Thanks. >> Um

758
04:11:00.239 --> 04:11:16.720
>> Mr. Chair, >> I'll give it a shot. I I don't know if Jeff you want to hand me your crib notes and I can from them a little bit. I think Sher your point's well taken as well that >> I'll do this so I can read along with you guideline but

759
04:11:16.720 --> 04:11:32.399
>> um >> you just want to hand me those. >> I am >> if you say what's the what >> what's that handwriting? >> He's going to hand it right back to you. Um, >> so you can start at the bottom if you

760
04:11:32.399 --> 04:11:48.439
want and I that's just simply a notice that you can reference the conditions on the staff's recommended conditions at uh on pages four and five of the staff report. >> You can certainly read them if you wish or

761
04:11:49.760 --> 04:12:04.800
>> that's okay because that is >> I would say you can omit the um >> if it's part of it good. Yeah, the last one about the seats and tables. That's fine. Unless you want to include >> Yeah. All right. Um,

762
04:12:04.800 --> 04:12:23.520
>> and Jeeoff, you got my note in there. >> What notes that? >> Oh, >> you got my note, too. >> Do you Do you want to give it to James or >> Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. And that's Yeah, I addressed that.

763
04:12:23.520 --> 04:12:39.840
>> Okay. Having considered standards set forth within city code, including the city's ADC district design guidelines, I move to find that the proposed development at 835, 843, and 847 West Main Street, satisfies the B's criteria and is compatible with this property and

764
04:12:39.840 --> 04:12:55.120
other properties in this ADC district. And that the B approves the application with the following conditions. Uh, ground level mechanical equipment, utility meter boxes, panels, transformers, etc. will be appropriately screened per the design guidelines

765
04:12:55.120 --> 04:13:10.000
chapter 2 section 8 screening will be indicated on the final site plan and approved by BAR staff meters and panel boxes for utility communications and cable connections will be located preferably within the garage if not then in nonprominent

766
04:13:10.000 --> 04:13:26.800
locations on the side elevations only and appropriately screened. Screening will be indicated on the final site plan approved by BA staff. Uh, the owner will address any reasonable public complaints about brightness or glare from exterior lights or non-vehicular lights visible

767
04:13:26.800 --> 04:13:42.000
from the garage by either dimming the lamp, replacing the lamps fixtures, and/or modifying the screening at wall openings. Um, don't need new signage. Glass at the street level storefronts, doors, windows, and transoms must be clear with

768
04:13:42.000 --> 04:13:59.840
a VT of not less than 70%. you need to read further. >> We are going to omit from the COA um the sample plant pallet, paving pallet, external lighting and site furnishings including first floor level

769
04:13:59.840 --> 04:14:17.279
building lighting on the exterior. Um the forementioned site details indicated on sheets 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12 of the submitt. Um, these site elements will be reviewed at a later date as a separate COA request.

770
04:14:17.279 --> 04:14:32.960
Prior to BAR staff approval of the final site plan, applicant will complete a phase one archaeological investigation of the project site and provide that report for the BAR archive. They will provide to bar staff a shade

771
04:14:32.960 --> 04:14:49.120
sha shadow study examining the hours of 9:00 am noon 3 a.m. 3 p.m. >> Oh, you're right. >> 6 p.m. >> 3:00 a.m. and 6 a.m. might not have any sun. No. >> Uh the intent is to advise plant selection for the site and to provide

772
04:14:49.120 --> 04:15:04.880
information to the West Haven citizen planners to assist >> uh plantings within the West Haven community. um and that those um those hours be added to the dates

773
04:15:04.880 --> 04:15:20.720
that were already part of the solar plan. Okay. >> Um and I think that's it. >> I'm going to second that so I can make some comments. >> Okay, I hear a second. Let's have

774
04:15:20.720 --> 04:15:37.279
discussion. Thank you. Um, so the comments about the garage lighting, I thought you we were going to keep the first part of it and delete the part that you read. >> Uh, I thought that we >> the opposite. >> We keep the first part, the 3000K is

775
04:15:37.279 --> 04:15:53.040
>> Yeah, cuz once it's inside the building, the zoning code can't regulate the color temperature and all that. So, yeah, we want it to be 3000K. We want it to be dimable. Right. I thought the applicant was saying that they don't want to have some legal obligation to adjust the lighting if it's

776
04:15:53.040 --> 04:16:08.720
>> okay. >> No, we're good with that part. It was the complaint section. >> The way you read it was >> Well, the way I read it is that you would have to address address any reasonable public complaints. >> And I thought that was the part that you

777
04:16:08.720 --> 04:16:23.680
guys did. >> Yeah, that was the part that >> that's what I thought, too. >> Okay. Should we amend the motion to strike that? And >> uh yeah, I would make that amendment. And I also um when you're listing off the exemptions, um >> please add

778
04:16:23.680 --> 04:16:38.880
>> Please add >> Well, you mentioned just the um the ground level lighting. I think we should just exempt all exterior building lighting and that comes back as part of the the landscaping package that we're going to review. Is that >> I'll accept >> okay with >> and I thought we were also exempting

779
04:16:38.880 --> 04:16:54.800
from approval the memory walk >> memory walk is not exist but the site plan you omitted page seven you included page eight blah blah blah but page seven which is where it identifies

780
04:16:54.800 --> 04:17:10.880
you know the tree and furniture zone the vehicular drive out pedestrian prominade >> we'll add >> seven >> all right so I'm going to accept a friendly amendment to also exclude page seven. I'm going to amend the

781
04:17:10.880 --> 04:17:27.199
uh summary about lighting revised to say we would prevent will strike the strike the phrase that says the owner will address any reasonable public complaints about brightness or glare from exterior lights or non-vehicular lights visible from the garage by either dimming the

782
04:17:27.199 --> 04:17:43.680
lamp, repairing the lamps fixtures, and or modifying the screening at wall openings. and then add to prevent bright light and glare emanating from the garage openings. Lamping for the garage lights immediately inside the any opening will be dimmable, have a color temperature

783
04:17:43.680 --> 04:17:59.760
not exceeding 30,000K and have a color rendering index not less than 80, preferably not less than 90. >> Yeah. And that we would also like to include all exterior building lighting in the site plan. >> Yes. And the reason I'm saying that just

784
04:17:59.760 --> 04:18:13.760
in case there's any lighting that happens on your rooftop terraces or things like that, just I'm sure it will be great, but just want to see it. >> Well, sorry, Forgive me. I'm confused. The lighting's not shown. The only

785
04:18:13.760 --> 04:18:32.080
lighting that's shown is on page 12. >> I guess that's I guess >> we're already excluding page 12, >> right? And we're wanting to see the exterior lighting of the project, right? >> Okay. But I just didn't want to say

786
04:18:32.080 --> 04:18:47.760
we're excluding other lighting. >> Fair. >> Cuz it's not >> Yeah, I know it's not, but we want to see. >> Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. >> Any other amendments? >> All right. There's motions. Have we

787
04:18:47.760 --> 04:19:05.040
adequ ad adequately exempted the plaza in the front? >> The hardscape. >> I mean, if that's part of the site plan, that's >> I mean, if that's >> if the answer is yes, then I'm fine. I just want to make sure. >> I mean, I think so. If we've excluded

788
04:19:05.040 --> 04:19:20.319
the site plan, >> I mean, but the front includes a lot of hardscape, not just the plant. I mean, our it says plant pallet >> just based on what this says. Okay. >> So, we're using all the right. So when we say site plan in the minutes, make sure we're clear. We're not talking

789
04:19:20.319 --> 04:19:37.040
about the required site plan, but the >> the landscaping and hardcaping >> site plan. Okay. >> Right. >> Yes. >> And um >> there I want to just again before you vote just be clear on clarification on something so so that everybody

790
04:19:37.040 --> 04:19:53.680
understands. Um archaeological investigation phase one relatively simple. Um, if human remains are found on a site, that that by state law, you have to stop. That's a that that that we don't even have to say

791
04:19:53.680 --> 04:20:08.560
that, but we would hope they would. Um, if if a phase one is completed and we accept it into the record. Um there's we do not have an archaeology ordinance in town so we can't we can encourage it and

792
04:20:08.560 --> 04:20:26.000
wish for it and hope for it but um if while they're doing excavation and >> that they're they're >> they'll not beholding state law um regarding archaeology. We're just requiring um phase one >> just so we're clear. Yeah. >> Yep.

793
04:20:26.000 --> 04:20:42.800
>> All right. Call a vote. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think my second still stands. >> Did you do you think we captured the motion >> as well? Patrick has >> I will get to relive this again. >> Yeah. I I would say yeah.

794
04:20:42.800 --> 04:20:58.720
>> Okay. >> You're you're clear in the in the recording I heard the pieces fit together. So >> Okay. Um Mr. Schwarz. >> Yes. >> Mr. Bailey. >> Yes. >> Mr. Burl. >> I. >> Miss Lewis. >> Hi. >> Mr. Timberman. Yes,

795
04:20:58.720 --> 04:21:14.560
>> Miss Tavony. >> Yes, >> Miss Rosenthal. >> Yes, >> Miss Trumpeter. >> Yes. >> And I vote yes. >> All right. Thank you. >> Final thought on this. Just again to inform. >> Nope. >> No more thoughts. >> No thoughts. >> No thoughts.

796
04:21:14.560 --> 04:21:30.960
>> I'm sorry, Mr. >> Yes. >> So, the applicant can appeal uh any the conditions of this approval. uh they have 10 business days following this action uh to make an appeal. So yes, an

797
04:21:30.960 --> 04:21:48.880
applicant can appeal uh an approval. That's right. The conditions of approval and additionally if any uh if the uh adjacent property owners feel agrieved by this, they can also appeal that to council. That process requires an

798
04:21:48.880 --> 04:22:05.680
application uh be submitted a statement and I can if someone is planning it then please talk to me because it's not just saying I want to appeal this process or this project there there is a fee involved and there's a formal application involved. So I just want to make sure we're on the record >> within within 10 days.

799
04:22:05.680 --> 04:22:22.560
>> Yeah, it's good. >> You can just announce that within 10 days. >> Yes, 10 business days. >> Business days. Yeah. >> Thank you. It's short. >> All right. Um, >> Mr. Chair, I would respectfully

800
04:22:22.560 --> 04:22:40.239
suggest that we not discuss the BA bylaws this evening, seeing as the time is 9:30. Could we possibly defer that to our July meeting when I understand the agenda may be late? >> We may not have anything. So, >> we might not have it. What others feel

801
04:22:40.239 --> 04:22:57.279
uh folks want to dig into the bylaws or not this evening? Not. >> All right. Um maybe we'll just ask for homework and ask everybody to >> look over them on their >> own time between now and the July date

802
04:22:57.279 --> 04:23:15.439
and um email in any thoughts and comments to Kate and the group. I've already thrown in my two cents on the pre-application conference if y'all if anybody had a chance to read it yet. Yeah, >> when we have to discuss our barbecue.

803
04:23:15.439 --> 04:23:30.960
>> That's right. >> And I was going to suggest, Mr. Chair, we could meet. I believe in the deliberative process that if nine people plus staff get together and we talk about the bylaws, we all get instead of, you know, everybody sending in separate

804
04:23:30.960 --> 04:23:48.399
emails in that environment, you hear other people's comments. You come to a consensus. you are better, you know, in that deliberative process than you are just us shooting our opinions or ideas, you know, to staff and then having them call it. But, and I would also suggest

805
04:23:48.399 --> 04:24:05.120
if we did want to do the barbecue, we could meet, you know, 5 or 5:30 here or whatever, 4:30 or whatever, and meet and it'll be an official meeting and then we adjourn and we give the location of our adjournment and the meeting actually continues to wherever we go. And that's

806
04:24:05.120 --> 04:24:22.560
how you handle it under state law. >> So we would have to disclose the address of wherever we're going. So any member of the public could come and eat barbecue with us. >> I don't know if that's what we want. >> Um >> that's not what you want cuz you want

807
04:24:22.560 --> 04:24:40.000
you want to take all day off and cook. No, you all have you and you've historically had a the city has provided a an annual dinner and you know there's not been a public meeting. So I uh I think to separate the business >> I think your point's taken of uh having

808
04:24:40.000 --> 04:24:57.199
a discussion about the BA or the bylaws and I was sorry didn't mean to indicate that we would uh supplant a discussion about them with our comments or or emails. Um, I think it was more just making sure we do our homework and read through the suggested edits and maybe

809
04:24:57.199 --> 04:25:11.920
maybe at least send in questions or like, "Hey, could you clarify this?" Um, and then that way when we do get back together, it's a more robust conversation. Yeah. What what Kate and I would, >> you know, is not finalize them, but have

810
04:25:11.920 --> 04:25:29.439
>> where you all are heading at least a good understanding of that. So then we can have a conversation with legal and then when we sit down we're looking at something that we've gotten feedback on internally and uh so >> potentially votable. >> Yeah. So I agree with both of you. Um

811
04:25:29.439 --> 04:25:46.319
but there was we were also we were under advisement to not to take everything to legal first and we kind of had to push back and say I want to make sure we're we've captured the idea. So >> that's right because if legal says yeah

812
04:25:46.319 --> 04:26:01.680
it's all good and then we have further changes that's wasted in their time. >> Right. So I would so yeah I would say if you've got um we've got a lot going on uh I don't know if we have a July meeting or not. >> I think we should um hold that date for

813
04:26:01.680 --> 04:26:17.680
our barbecue >> and then >> and then do the bylaws in August. >> I think you're fine and then um >> unless something comes up for us. >> Is that a good timeline? But please tell but still respond to me if like you know you got a a thought or a question. And

814
04:26:17.680 --> 04:26:33.040
then the last piece of this I and I discussed this with the city attorney discussed it with Missy um my boss and the recommendation was that try to keep this skeletal and a framework. You know

815
04:26:33.040 --> 04:26:48.560
don't don't box ourselves in with a lot of words and and rely on Robert's rules for procedural things. So, you know, we reference those and I think that's where that I you as you were saying sort of separating out take the agenda and chunk it out. You know, here's where the

816
04:26:48.560 --> 04:27:05.040
public comment comes in, but you know, we're having a preapp discussion that's a different thing. So, um >> so keep a final thought. >> Yeah, cuz you're organizing >> like three hours marks the 2year anniversary for me working with you all.

817
04:27:05.040 --> 04:27:20.159
Y very happy and >> thank you Kate for everything you've done for us >> and kudos to Jeff for taking me on. >> She's uh she came with a good recommendation from a guy with a great southern accent. Um

818
04:27:20.159 --> 04:27:35.840
who said I'm not sure what name she's going by right now. And I was like uh >> in the south we take our husband's names. So here >> you go. Um >> thank you. Yeah. Who has the code?

819
04:27:35.840 --> 04:27:52.920
>> I think I do. >> Um, >> right there. >> I drove I drew on one of them or No, I actually took some notes. >> I know where it went. >> Is it in there on the other side?

820
04:27:53.120 --> 04:28:09.239
>> That's yours. >> Where did that go? Oh, I passed it along. It had the trees and the >> Oh, yeah. >> Do I hear a motion to adjurnn? >> So moved. So move. >> All in favor? >> I. >> What code section?