would like to welcome everyone to our um regular um housing advisory committee meeting for the year. Yay. Um I'm Joy Johnson and I'm the chair and
I'll go to my right. >> I'm Nicole Crow. I'm the real estate professional. >> Richb I'm just a board member. Rosenswagen with Habitat for Humanity. Billy Brown, NDS director, Bill Donio,
Planning Commission and alleged real estate. >> Mike Breezy, Rosello, resident at large membler, acting health manager. You're good. You're going around the table. >> To the audience.
>> I'm Wendy. I'm A4 organizer. Corey Kennelopoulos on the long range planning team with NDS. >> And I'm Alan Puro with the city manager's office. And >> I'm Wade Lewis, far. >> I'm Melina Hill, um, FAR intern. Emily
Drip, community organizer with Legal A justice center. Lane Smith intern um bar board far intern and I would say uh community outreach because I'd be outside so you know >> we'll say I can go to long range
planning manager and yes >> mly development planning manager. >> Thank you. All right. Um number next on the agenda is staff update. >> Yes. And I'll um thanks for bearing with
us today. I know there's quite a list here and we have some special guests um from NDS to provide some updates about what's going on in the department. But I'll start just from the housing division and I'll focus today on the cyro evaluation work plan that is in
your materials that are in front of you. This was also shared with city council on December 1st. Um and I really want to share it with you all because you'll as the hack members be involved in the portions of engagement when we are working on those portions. Um so there
will be more communication to come for you all in the new year as we kick that project off. Um but I did want to get that before you all but I won't take time to you know delve too deep into it. But we're just trying to holistically
look at that program. We know it really is one of the only programs we're having in the city that is 100% the funding is going towards um families that are earning 30% or less of the area median income. So, we want to look at how we can strengthen it and potentially serve
more of the community and make sure we're meeting the needs um and strengthening the program as best we can. >> Can you just explain for the folks who may be new what um the seed scrap program is? Yeah, it's the Charlottesville Supplemental Rental
Assistance Program and it was designed to kind of uh be functioning similar to the federal housing choice voucher program and it's a local housing voucher program that uh folks can apply for and then use on the market to find housing.
Um we know that the federal program could always use more funding and so we wanted to supplement it at the city level. Um, of course that still only goes so far, but it's a little bit further than just the federal dollars
alone go. >> All right. And if no other questions for now, I'll turn it over to Alex Gira who will give an update on the tax and >> can I just add one thing? Um, so an update on the housing division program evaluation. Um, we have kicked that off.
We have a consultant on board uh to lead that evaluation for us. Uh, so some of you may um hear from him. His name is Andy Freriedman. He's uh from Progressive Housing. He was formerly a long time director of housing and
community development in Virginia Beach. Uh really built that program from the ground up um and is now uh consulting and advising other localities on how to achieve their goals in this space. So um just wanted to give you an update on
that. uh they will be uh he will be coming to uh a hack meeting to provide an update um during the process. Um but again just be on the lookout. You might hear from him looking for uh an opportunity to talk to you and ask you some questions about uh what your
insight and feedback might be. >> And do you know whether or not that will be like in January, February before you come to that? >> It will likely be February. >> It'll be in February. Yeah, possibly March, but hoping for February.
>> So, probably add that to the agenda. >> Start building it. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, and I'll note too while we're on that topic, we next month, um, Lori Gene Tuloon from the Thomas Jefferson Planning District Commission will be
coming in and potentially with, um, the folks that are working on the regional housing study to give the group an update. they have done a lot of the preliminary um data analysis and have presented some of their you know preliminary findings to the project management team which I got to hear and
I think um you would all be really interested in that as well. So as long as you're good with that for the January I'll put her on the agenda for that. Um but we can talk more offline about that if you'd like. >> Y'all good with that? Okay.
>> All right. I'll turn it over to Ellen then. Great. Well, thank you, Madeline. Uh, and again, in introduction, I'm Alan Shur. I'm with the city manager's office and I've been uh the lead uh staffer on the tax abatement uh study and process
that we kicked off uh back in April uh when uh we made a presentation to council about the concept of the tax abatement and city council asked staff to commission a study uh to look into the concept of a tax abatement but first
of all do a market analysis so we could identify what are what are the primary impediments to uh housing construction projects in the Charlottesville community. Uh to carefully quantify the
costs of housing uh so that we could understand what cost impediments may exist uh and then do an analysis of what incentive opportunities city government may have before it uh to potentially overcome some of those impediments uh on
some levels. And so that's what the tax abatement study has done. Uh we hired a consultant 3TP who you recall have addressed uh has a we had Jeremy uh and Mike here I think at your two meetings ago. Um and so they have been conducting
the study and we're to the point now where they have completed their uh final report draft and their feasibility model which I think we demonstrated for you a couple of meetings back. Uh we're kind of in the final let's edit, let's make
sure all the grammar lines up. Uh and uh we will be presenting all of that to the planning commission uh on January 13th and uh between now and then uh making the final report and the draft the draft
report and the draft model available uh for review. So my understanding is we'll we'll probably have that available uh soon uh for you to review. just missed the opportunity uh for today. Um but just a couple of quick hits from what that uh uh report is going to conclude
which most of which Jeremy was already here uh may raise these points when we were last in front of you. Uh but again based on all the data and and incidentally uh he's been working uh very diligently to get a lot of information real time information from
current projects ongoing projects projects that have tried and not gotten off the ground uh pro and that includes both in the past couple of years and in in our rearview mirror talking to developers uh I know he met with some some of you and spoke with you
individually with the goal of getting as accurate information as possible uh to look at costs in the areas of hard costs, financing costs, soft costs, and then of course market rate rents uh and and of course the affordable rents
because all of that data is going to inform that model that will help us as a collective whole look at what the impacts uh the policy implications of a tax abatement program will be. Um but again as a reminder those uh major
findings uh are that market conditions for housing construction are challenging right now primarily because of a lot of high costs and construction materials driven by a lot of things. Most recently of course we've got tariffs uh on many construction items that come in from
other countries. Uh we also have high costs of financing while the Federal Reserve has made some reductions to uh to their rates. uh those have yet aren't quite percolating through yet. It's a little early. Um but all of those cost
impediments are making it tough to get uh housing construction off the ground right now. Um their other finding is that the inclusionary zoning uh ADU requirement is indeed a material impact on uh how much housing construction
costs increase. Uh but while it's material, it's not necessarily significant. It in is not in and of itself a barrier uh given all those other barriers that are much more significant. Um they also then looked at
uh tax abatement models across the country and essentially conclude that given the headwinds to uh housing construction kind of the traditional base and increment uh formula for a tax abatement would probably not be
particularly feasible uh given the without putting significant risks on city budget because of all of the changeable factors that are in the typical base increment. uh that's impacted by land values, improvement values, tax rates, etc. On
the other hand, uh they talk the uh conclusion uh one of the findings discusses the potential viability of the rent what we're calling the rent gap model of an abatement. And that's based upon what's going on in Baltimore where
essentially it's a much more uh elegant model in terms of uh very simple it uh what the tax abatement formula would be is it documents what is the loss of revenue that a project would
incur because of the 10% ADU requirement. it that's what we call it a tax gap model because it it tries to identify what the gap uh is between what they could have uh collected as revenue without the ADU requirement uh to what
they have to do because of the ADU requirement that's the gap and then the model would consider the opportunity to fill some of that gap with a tax incentive um they talk about the the findings are that that might be a viable model although it concludes cludes that
in and of itself it is not likely to be sufficient to uh reduce the impediments to construction at this point in time. And so they also went on we fortunately we wrote the scope broadly enough that they looked at other incentive opportunities. So the final version of
the model that we hope to roll out soon will include additional of additional uh other additional incentives that we could consider uh the council could consider coupling with a tax abatement. Um, but the bottom line is the model
provides a great uh financial illustration of all of these impediments and all of these potential incentives and helps give us an opportunity to have some conversations and council to have some good policy deliberations. Um,
and I think >> yeah, just a quick question. you a moment ago you were referencing that the the their conclusion towards the end was the tax abatement would be insufficient on its own. Um is that because of the other factors outside of our control
i.e. interest rates and that sort of thing or is it because even if those things were more favorable the tax abatement itself would be insufficient as an incentive. It's the former that it's given the current uh cost impediments a and and I should correct
that. It's that a tax abatement that wouldn't put future budget revenue at risk would likely not be feasible enough to overcome because the the requirements of the size of that incentive would be rather significant uh with the idea of
uh not putting uh future budget revenue at risk. um and that but that's in the current context and that's an excellent question because one of the final uh findings and and reminders is all of these conditions are going to change. Nothing stays static in this world and
so the value of the model is that staff will be able to update these cost uh inputs on a regular basis as financing costs are likely to come down. We will be able to change those inputs as the facts on the ground merit so that we
could evaluate what a tax abatement might do within the context of this world in 6 months, 12 months, a year, two years. And so that's I should have qualified it. It's that a tax abatement would likely not be enough without s
significantly putting uh future city revenue at risk. Can and sorry one thing uh when will we see the documentation or the >> the analysis the report the report itself just so we can like look at it in more detail ourselves
>> the report has pardon me >> the report has analysis yes >> yes yes and we're hoping to uh again like I said kind of correct final uh grammar and things like that and make that available uh between now and January uh 13th's uh planning commission
the meeting so that you you'll have access to it so you can take a look at it. >> You know when you you think you'll have it >> finalized because January 13 is right around >> Yeah, it is way fast. >> Soon. >> Soon. Um yeah,
>> very soon. So, it's obviously extremely fresh and forward in your mind. So, I gather you're you're wrestling with it daily at this point. I I'm reading reading things as we go and uh and and actually I have the model up on my desktop because I'm
wanting to make sure that we made some final uh formatting changes towards the end. Uh we wanted to be able to better display what the what the actual impact of the abatements would be to tax revenue over uh yearbyear over the
30-year term potentially etc. We wanted to make that a little bit more transparent in the front end. So, uh, we just got back kind of those final enhancements to the model and I just want to make sure that they match what staff recommended and requested the consultant. So, yeah, is literally right
up on my desktop, the office. So that my >> so that >> my inquiry on this uh and from my recollection about my thinking about it and the earlier iterations of our conversations have we taken a look it's
look at this and does this model address circumstances where an affordable unit is not required for example under a smaller configuration where it's not required to move the density of the zoning and seeing what impact we can
have for providing one there. So, let's say we've got a four unit on an RA and they want to do an affordable one. Do we have a built-in for something on that scale? Because it seems, am I very, and this is very much back of the envelope and
>> anecdotal, the plural of anecdotes is not data, but I know that. Um, it seems to me that there might be an opportunity for a bigger bang for the buck on smaller ones where immediate cash flow and cash positions are more
important to the smaller player, >> right? I mean, somebody's building 150 units, they know it's going to cost a ton of money. They know they're going to be in the red. They have the money. We would love to get remade but you know if we on a smaller scale it seems that there might be some additional
opportunity there. That is that the model uh the answer is yes. So the model is adaptable to projects of all sizes although the original scope of the project um at as uh council's uh direction was to focus on those that are
required. model is adaptable um in terms of the number of units uh the number that would be affordable and you can you can plug in I'm going to build a 500 unit structure or I'm going to build a 40 unit structure so that can be done in
the model um to address another point that you uh had raised in there um one of the incentive additional incentives that's built into there would be the idea if the city could roll out a bridge loan for the
smaller investor. We >> discussed that. >> Yeah. Who can't necessarily afford between uh conceiving it and uh >> leasing it out. >> Exactly. So, we've built that in as an opportunity. Again, it's it's giving
it's giving us a lot of tool options that we can demonstrate what the impact would be on the feasibility of and that is one of them. And I think that was because of the meeting we had here where I think you guys raised that that we uh that Jeremy heard that filled
it out and he demoed it for us a couple weeks back. Can I just jump in real quick on the on the the the timeline moving forward? So the planning commission presentation is an information item only. We're not asking planning commission to take any action nor do we have any sort of schedule for
going to council either on this. >> Okay, that's my next question. Yes, we we are not seeking um any action yet. We feel like there's still a lot of opportunity to get some feedback, consider this within the context of some
other um items that are being studied right now. And so if there are questions after you've had a chance to review the report, we can certainly talk about those again um you know at at your January meeting or or even February meeting. So, just wanted to flag that as
something we had. >> Great. Thank you. I probably can make that very clear. Thanks, Kevin. >> So, I'm Go ahead. >> Um, I I don't know. I I want to say I'm really excited about this. It kind of threads the needle of
staff concerns about budget and how providing a tax abatement would affect the budget, but development concerns about feasibility for projects under also concerns about providing too much um you know incentive and and over
incentivizing. So, it's very targeted and I'm very curious what the other incentives are that supplement. Um, and you don't have to tell me now the report will come. >> This was a teaser. Yeah. But it's very exciting. Um, but one thing that we
mentioned a bunch is the um the difference between the 80% and the 60% AMI for RA, RB. So, we can capture voucher holders. I've mentioned this a few times and I I think that would be
great to have more voucher eligible >> projects come up, >> right? Well, the um the model does allow us to uh flex between the AMI levels. So I can we
could plug in what would be the impact if uh uh on an abatement if we had you know anywhere from 30 to 80% AMI. So that is built in. Um I don't think we quite threaded the needle on the voucher
addition but again this is a a it's a it's a dynamic model that we can change and add to. So that was Jeremy's primary build. Will you all be looking at threading that needle >> um if it's re if
>> it needs to be correct? >> I think that's a good question to consider like put in the hopper with like all the other potential areas of study we could consider over the course of the next year. Um and again I think once we've had a
chance to all review the report, you know, we can see what maybe are the greatest areas of interest for additional exploration. Um clearly I think this report shows that there is no silver bullet. You know that a lot of other tools are going to be needed. There's still other areas of focus that
need to be addressed. >> Yeah. I think it needs Oh, go ahead D. You had your head up for a while. Go ahead. >> Yeah. So I in light of what Kelly had said, I think this takes on less urgency, but I'm wondering, do you know off hand what the ROI assumptions were?
what the allowable return on investment for investors was to develop to decide on feasibility >> that I don't know off hand I mean you can see it in the model it was 15% and then our 20 earlier inclusionary zoning
analysis used 12% as the cut off so I was more optimistic and found the same city >> okay because what I don't want is for us to evaluate the data based on feasibility for um uh chasing the best rate of return for investors. That's the
wrong way to do it. Then you end up subsidizing the investors, not subsidizing the tenants. Um and then the other thing is we had talked about including um the a layer for looking at what ROI in an opportunity zone would
be. Did that get um added to the model >> uh in No, we did not. that actually was a little bit beyond our scope and it's in there as a placeholder and a recommendation that that it's something we might want to look look at as a subsequent review.
>> That'd be that'd be great. I'll be probably pushing that when February rolls around because it may be that this could be a targeted abatement in areas of town that are fueled additionally fueled by >> uh federal legislation.
>> Right. And in particular um we had some discussions with uh it was either Minneapolis, Columbus, Ohio both who have done just that. So we we it just pushed us beyond the scope of this particular study, but it definitely
potentially. >> Great. And just to clarify for those those who don't know, OZ opportunity zone designation is typically census tracks that are lower income and that are more like our more core neighborhood designated spaces. There's general overlap.
>> Can you guys say which areas in Charlottesville? >> No. So, I think it's a little premature to say because the new OZ legislation passed in the one big ugly act. Um, uh, not that I'm editorializing or anything like that, um, actually loosen
some of the criteria for what can qualify as a regime. Um, not necessarily in a bad way, um, because it's not necessarily forcing gentrification pressure on low income neighborhoods. >> Yeah. Census track. Phil mostly Belmontish
>> that towards Belmont down to Southwoods. I mean that's the county but uh I believe Tenth and Page was count in there as well. So historically that's true. I um and there was also some uh leniency in the OZ legislation previously that if you're doing
something in an adjacent tract to an OZ tract, there is still opportunity for benefit too. So, um, we don't know exactly how it's going to play out >> and the governor elect will be the one who will redesate >> new Oz. >> Yeah.
>> Is anyone in the room involved in that initial process of selecting? >> So, the way the OZ was set up is there are some statutory OZ census tracks based on census data and then the governor had the opportunity to designate additional census tracks
beyond the statutory. Um, so I was around and and conferring with the governor's office at the time or staff uh and advocating, but it was a fairly opaque process. Basically, city councils or mayors contributed their
recommendations >> and the statutory stuff based on census can give you some wonky answers in some tracks. for example, in in in the city, for example, because the lowest quote income census tracked right next to the university because
>> yeah, they're not povertystricken. They just don't have income that we call income. >> And so I just want to thanks Emily for the prompt where you are around what does OZ benefit. So, opportunity zones are um ways for investments in those
districts to gain additional tax benefits for the investors. So, the ideal outcome uh is that that benefit you know has some impact on either on deeper affordability or affordable
housing in some way. um in the pre in the first round of OZ I think we generally saw that that was not the case that it was just opened up a door for the investors to get more equity out of uh um or more benefit out of the OZ
investments. Um there is a there is a couple of studies that came out in the last year or so that highlighted that there you know I don't how much I trust this but that you know a couple hundred thousand units of housing were developed in out of the OZ
>> uh incentive but uh that much was affordable housing it was just housing in general >> um and it was uh unclear I mean there there's dis there's disputed analysis about whether that would have happened anyway in that environment and whether
really just put more money in in the pocketbooks of folks who were developing in those census tracks. >> The one of the things that I advocated for back when it was first happening in Virginia is that like we it's federal legislation so there's nothing we can do
locally to hamstring it. But what we can do is set up um guard rails around how we uh put our own incentives on there to push the right kind of investment as much as possible. And I think there's opportunity at the state level and the
opportunity at the local level to really devise a strategy that um incentivizes it's not going to be able to stop but incentivizes the right kind of investment that we want to see. I actually think that there is an opportunity at the federal level when it roll when it comes back around again. Um
this time in the the update to the to the law the um they uh they actually provided additional step up in basis or additional tax benefits to targeted to rural area investment. And so there's no reason there's now a blueprint for how
you would do it for affordable investment for example. And so we at the we have aat at the national level have started um running that up the flag pole with legislators on both sides of the aisle and hasn't been completely shot down yet. >> Um but that's at the federal level we're
actually pushing to make it so that there is additional tax incentive for affordable housing investment as opposed to just housing investment. >> Great. >> Okay. Well, I think the the good news about this study that's coming to a conclusion and the subsequent model is
um I would I think when you when you get a chance to look at it soon, you'll see that it's a it's actually a starting point. It's not an end point. Um there's subsequent things we can do whether it's vouchers or opportunity zones or what have you. Uh there's things we can do
with it going forward. So, it's a it's a starting point uh not an end. And I I think Nicole's point I think you'll see that when you see it um remember what she was talking about in terms of all we you can see things from multiple
different perspectives. I think what will be the most valuable about this model is that everybody will be able to talk the same language at the end of looking at some of the scenarios as as Nicole was saying how much this
might impact the budget how much it might make a project more feasible does it look give us an opportunity to look at other incentive policy options etc I think you'll find that there's a lot there and it's more of a starting point than it is an end point. I
>> know we spent a lot of time on this, but just briefly, can you just say is the model in Excel who will have access to it? There'll be >> any of us can use it any time or we >> it's an Excel model that will be owned by NDS staff, which means that they will
create some processes for updating things because again, it's dynamic. It's not intended to be an endpoint. Um, and uh, so Kelly's team will will take possession of it as soon as it's final. Um, and how we go about it from there is yet to be determined.
>> I'll ask permission to everyone. >> Yeah, I don't run the numbers. >> Yeah, it Yeah, could potentially. Uh, and because Jeremy built in >> Jeremy built in a if you break it accidentally,
reset it with a magic button. >> I'll save that. I mean, and even if we if it was shared, it's like we would still have our own copy that wouldn't be the same one that people are playing with. >> Right. Correct. But it's uh yes, it's
got some uh default settings so that uh it's idiot proof for people like myself. >> I went too far by um unless there's any questions. Madam Chair, I'm >> Anybody? You have a question? >> No, I don't think so. >> Okay. >> Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. >> All right. Well, I'll pull up the presentation here for our presenters. >> Good afternoon everyone. >> Uh my name is Oay Akin Lton. The easiest
way to remember is Oay KC. Um, I currently serve as the long-range planning manager for the neighborhood development services department. Uh, what I really want to do, uh, because we are a new de new division, our inception was February of this year when I joined
the team and we have expanded and I'll discuss that a bit. Um, but to introduce you to us, our purpose, um, and some of the work that we're leading and how it connects to everything else we're going to discuss today. All right. So, I've introduced myself.
Um, additionally, we have Tori, who's in the back there. If she waves her hand, um, she is our long range planner. Additionally, we are fortunate enough to have Mike, um, who has been serving as our intern since this summer. Um, he has transitioned to not only serving long
range planning, but transportation planning. Um he is with us for 10 hours a week um and five hours are dedicated to each division. Sarah who is not in the room um she serves as the historic preservation and long-range planning intern. Um she is
with us 25 hours a week through May. Uh for her it's she is primarily focused on historic preservation and dedicates about seven hours per week to long range planning. So, as you can see here, I've outlined
the the purpose of our division, um, which is ensuring today's decision along with the community's vision for the future. And we'll get into that just a bit in the next couple slides. And it is our mission to foster a planning culture
rooted in justice, connection, and resilience by connecting systems, partnerships, and community voices to guide Charlottesville towards a future where everyone thrives. So basically what that is, we set the policy um set the term policy and the um
direction for growth and preservation. Um, we translate your priorities into clear implementable guidance and policy. Um, and we attempt to align the work across all city departments.
So, our northstar in the long range planning division is the just communities framework. It builds upon what is already within the comprehensive plan but sets out clear bounds um at the local level. So it focuses on anti-displacement, inclusive governance and wealth
building. Um it centers fair access, affordability, climate readiness and repairative and restorative approaches. acknowledges historical exclusion, including the lack of representation of black communities,
and it commits to shared benefits, repairative engagement, not just the identification of past harms, but repairing those past harms and accountable outcomes. So, I want to highlight uh our 2022 for
you. So we have acquired a public engagement platform called social pinpoint. Uh it will be announced or made public next year. Our platform name will be connect Charlottesville. So for
um next is home states as short-term rentals. We collaboratively worked with zoning zoning um to gather feedback. We did a survey early in the year. Uh we just had a public engagement uh about two weeks ago
um unveiling what potential changes or updates uh we are proposing to that regulation neighborhood fact sheets. And again I'm going to look to Mike because um he really led that effort all summer. We
met with neighborhoods across the city um for that development. They are available online and includes trans proposed transportation projects, zoning information, historical information relative to neighborhoods and again that is available on the neighborhood leaders
site. Uh I will say uh we worked with the neighborhood leaders for quite a bit this year. Um it was an absolute privilege um sad to have let that one go. Um also an environmental study. So Tori is actually leading our environmental
policies and regulation study for the city. Um it's currently in its infancy phases. There is a um work session with city council on January 5th if anyone is interested. And finally um just to highlight another project is the 10 page of Rose Hill
plan. Um you may have heard of this. Uh we have been working on this since its inception. It's still in its early phases. We're trying to move at the speed of trust. Currently, it is one pause um until we get further direction from council and city manager's office.
>> Why is it paused? >> We need further guidance uh input from the community um for how we should move forward with this planning process. >> Was that seems like you have another question? Did I? So there's no more
engagement happening with the community. >> Oh, there's always engagement happening here with the community. Um my motto is to be in and with community. So I like to be boots on the ground. I will share next year. Um we are we will have planning
popups um in Tenth and Paige and Fville uh where we will be in City of Promise every other Tuesday from 11 to 2 p.m. and then Tonsler Park we we're um consular recreation center pardon me. Um we are still trying to determine a time
but most likely on Thursdays. >> So what guidance from council are you looking for? So due to um concerns uh about items or projects in the neighborhood um we had to take a more holistic look
which includes zoning which Matt will get to as well as housing um which uh I believe Meline do you have a few slides will >> Kelly has a few slides later on that
>> why was it that it's at the city of promise for the tent to page. That was the only space that we could acquire at this point. Oh, I did hear back from peer center. Um I had reached out to them months and months ago and just didn't hear back. Um but there is
an opportunity there as well. >> Yeah, there needs to be a because everyone doesn't utilize the t the city of promise house. >> Understood. >> Mostly their participants, but if you're talking about the whole community >> Yes, ma'am. It has to be another space.
>> Yes, ma'am. >> And I know um since I'm responsible for the West Haven Community Center and it has changed somewhat, it has to be a schedule time. Okay. >> So, if you can reach out to Alamia or Kathleen, >> we'll do
>> we can try just to make sure that the whole community um participated. >> Absolutely. And we will prioritize times that are better for the community as well. Right. So I look forward to connecting to >> even if we're doing it at the legal aid
space. That's another space where it seems to be kind of neutral for all the communities to meet the tenant page neighborhood if they don't want to meet in and uh there is a division between
West Haven and Tenton Page. I just hope you know that. >> Yes, ma'am. I've noticed that there are some >> West Haven seems to be some tenth and page folks seem see as separate >> and I understand
>> and I think developers see it the same way that's why we have this push back with LV collective we are a part of the tent and page and you would treat us as we are part of the tenth page >> absolutely and I really want to make that connection I as you've seen before
I attend the tenth and page neighborhood association meetings and I want to become connected to West Haven. So I I look forward to connecting about it for sure. Uh so I've already somewhat talked about long range plans. Um it is the guiding
document for the city, our vision, overall policies and again all of our departments are supposed to look to that for guidance um capital investments. Uh but again, we are a a new division within the city and so again we're in
our infasy phases and we're trying to get our footing and trying to figure out what that looks like and how we integrate into the existing ecosystem here within the city. So um examples of plans of course not only the comprehensive plan but small
area plans that have already been developed. our climate action plan. Um we will be moving forward with a mobility plan. Um and of course the parks and rec master plan that was uh adopted this year. So I just wanted to provide an example.
I don't know why this is still up here. Okay, it's just gonna stay here, I guess. >> Okay, I can figure it out. Sorry about that. All right. So, um the vision uh this is the process. So, the vision is the master plan or parks master plan
identified the need for a citywide vision for recreation facilities. Um and I apologize that's the comprehensive plan um identified needs for the citywide vision for parks and recreation. The policy the parks and recreation master plan adopted this year
outlines clear strategies for investment and implementation. Uh, an example of that is um recommending targeted improvements to Northeast Neighborhood Park, including ADA access, lighting, and new amenities.
Um, so we're going to move into planning. The smaller area plan redefineses scope especially, not especially, but for those areas uh small identified areas, um, it applies the citywide goals to uh, a smaller scale.
Um it should reflect the local context and lived experience. Um you are the experts of your lived experience and it should be included within all we do in planning. Um and that leads to investment um which is the CFP funding for Tons Park
supported major upgrades um alignment with um comprehensive plan and the master plan priorities um including new recreation facilities and accessibility improvements. But I just wanted to give you a a small
example of um implementation and what work has to be done and how we fit as as long range planning into that process. So you're well aware of this process. Um I I just wanted to highlight
especially as we're going into the conversation with our development review manager uh of course the um affordable housing plan was adopted prior to the comprehensive plan. Um it identified
housing affordability as the most urgent challenge and that is outlined and projected within our comprehensive plan. um it helped or assisted um identifying clear
targets and needs first for this effort. Um so from there a new development code um was outlined the need was outlined in the comprehensive plan um to align with the regulations and policies out um outlined
within the comprehensive plan and I apologize I repeated that but it also provided a clear standard for enabling consistent outcomes and um that was adopted in 2024. So, we took an obscure
um process to the actual development code, but adopting the housing plan first um is probably the best um timeline or process for us because um it
focuses on the need, the urgent and important need within our community. Um and so you will see that throughout the document um and the focus to implement that and include that in everything we do here within the city.
So moving into um zoning that code, it took a few years to develop after the comprehensive plan, but because of the housing um that led that comprehensive planning process, it was um included or prioritized also within that development code inclusive of the inclusionary
zoning and and other items. So I don't have another slide. It's just my contact information. But I just wanted to share that long range planning um guides policies
um regulation policy regulations. Uh long range planning also improves or hopefully improves trust and consistency. That is what we're currently working towards. I'm going say it over and over and over again. I move at the speed of trust.
There are obstacles. There were acknowledgements like at the meeting that I had at tenth and page and well you were there at tenth and page um and it resonates with us. We hear you and that is how we prioritize and move forward within our
work plans, our processes. Um yeah, it's it's supposed to be intent into action and that is the purpose of our division. So this is my contact information. Um I
look forward to collaborating with all of you um as we move forward. That is the goal of long range planning. So you'll see us frequently. Uh and thank you. We're going to move into the development. >> I um am I I I would love to make
absolutely sure that you're connected with um our resident planners. >> Yes. who are um um who meets um just about every Thursday still in the process of planning um the
redevelopment of West Haven. Yes, ma'am. >> And one of the thing that they talked about um the residents talk about one of their goal and objectives is to do um because West Haven was the baby that was birthed out of Vinegar Hill.
>> Yes, ma'am. that there is a historic content there that needs to be still told. It needs to be visualized and that a lot of people um even though it may have been doubt dirt ground, it was their homes and a lot of people lost
that and so there's some reparation that they're always talking about. Yes, ma'am. But um one of the things they wanted to build and um is to have a memory wall is to be able to do a memory wall just basically showing what was in
Vinegar Hill, how it was torn down, how it sat for 15 years and then when the new the when the um West Haven was built to show because there's lots and lots and lots of pictures of just actually
showing how West Haven was dug out. How they just dug it out. I mean, it's unbelievable that they went so far down. And then also um about the the 30 years later, the water issue that is running down on the buildings and causing mold
and stuff like that. And so they've been struggling with that piece of it. And then um that was the push back. Um that was one of the big push back with LV Collective because um their goal was
how do we connect back to West Haven and then when they did their um footprint showing some of what they would like to see um connected back um when uh when they came with when they used our footprint
to um draw their design, it actually now will block the the um the visual of whatever a memory wall would look like. And so that became personal to um the residents. And
so this is why we push back because even if the wall go up and even if they have done something to show the history, the wall is the only thing that's going to be seen. it will not be people and and so I would love for you to
connect with um the redevelopment committee. John Sales is not here but and Brandon is is leading that charge but I personally would love to see you working with them to see how they can come up with something even if it even if we lose the battle of that forsaken
thing going up. How do you still do a memory wall or something historic historic memory of um showing Vinegar Hill what it went and then now how it has transformed because Vinegar
Hill didn't have any residents participating and we have resident participating in this redevelopment. Oh, gotcha. I I want to uplift something you said about um the culture that exists there. Um and
we are not just focused on the physical infrastructure. We look to the social infrastructure that exists within your communities as well and that's very important. Um also placemaking people always reference placemaking um which to
certain people um does not bode well. It's a it's a negative word or a negative process. We focus on placekeeping as well. That historic value, that historic texture that exists within neighborhoods and I agree, it needs to be prioritized. It needs to be
recognized. Um and I look forward to connecting um to see how we can collaborate on making something happen. Appreciate that. Absolutely. >> Good afternoon. >> Good afternoon. >> So I'm Matt Alley. I'm the development
planning manager at NDS. And this is a good segue. Thank you, Jose. Uh I can kind of talk about our division in NDS. So as O was talking about with long range planning, we are the front end uh
engagement with the community and policy making development review is not a policy side. We are a uh review and compliance side. So we are the side of the house that reviews site plans, development plans and utilizes the
development code. And so um as the development code adopted in 2023, uh this was a new as Oay alluded to this was a long process. This is a very different code than our previous code,
our 03 code which is more formbased and builds off the comprehensive plan. But as with any code um as the planners on the development review side have been engaging with it, we run into
areas where it's not working. And we have divided those into three tiers being tier one which is our kind of small grammatical errors, small changes. tier two which would are areas we've run
into that are uh choke points but are not we're there the policy and the intent is not changing but there is a better way to approach it and then tier three which is a lot of people in our community are very interested in those are the policy changes those are the the
the issues we're running into as a community in those are so as I was explaining with the tier one um these are very small things, small changes. I wanted to go back just to highlight one other thing and I'll speak
about this. Um I wanted to highlight kind of these updated dates. So updating the development code for tier one and tier 2 is going to be a yearly process that we'll be uh doing every year. This batch that we're taking
forward, we're going to planning commission on January 13th with about 70 tier one changes and about 23 tier 2 changes. Point that out. I'll probably be speaking to that too throughout this. Uh but again, tier one very are very
minor edits, things you just run into with any document. Um uh scrier errors, those type of uh changes uh that we've caught. Tier two or excuse me, here's some examples of some tier one. Um, not very exciting.
Again, scrier errors mostly and then also catching any changes related to development that came out of state regulations. The two biggest ones that we were hit with this year was our review times were shortened by quite a
bit at the state level and plan the role of planning commission was scaled back for development review. So these are these two bills that that were passed we needed to incorporate into our code and our processes.
Tier 2 amendments again address more oversight and ambiguous areas of the code. Uh but again nothing that impacts the policy or the intent. One of the good things about our development code is every section has an intent section
um what it is trying to do and so these changes fall in line with those um so they're more about modif I'm struggling with the tears >> certainly >> um because right now um um part of what
um both seven and a half street and and tenth of age is dealing with is about the the things that we missed when we supported the the change in the code about how um um these humongous building
in impact the perimeter of a neighborhood. What tier does that fall in? >> That would fall in tier three. That is about a that is about a policy change and engaging the community and really hearing from the community creating a planning scope to handle it. The the
chain the tier one and tier two which are moving forward are just about changes. They're not this is more in informative where the public engagement is at the p the the public hearing side of it. So they're not these aren't big changes where you would want to engage
with the community. So why wouldn't community engagement be in tier one if they're getting ready to build a building and shouldn't that's where you start with the community? >> Well, that's not understanding. >> Yeah. So the tier one are just scrier
errors where there were uh >> typos >> typos in the code. >> Gotcha. >> Yeah. So we'll look on that example page. >> Scrier. Okay. >> I don't know what scrier error is either. say that typos and um typos and misspellings.
>> Okay. >> Yeah, that would work better for me. >> Yeah. So, that's why we have like we have like 70 of them for >> and then >> tier two are the small edits. And I'll go to the example page because this maybe would help.
>> Can can I actually offer one suggestion for the labeling? Like tier one is low impact changes. Tier two is medium impact changes. Tier three is high impact changes. >> I feel like they've fallen off. >> I I'll the example I'll use I'll give
I'll give the it's a car. >> I get it. >> It's and I use this with planning commission too. So the the code is a car. Tier one is washing the car. Tier two is changing the oil. Tier three is the light came on. We've got to we've
got to fix something with the car. >> Okay. All right. We're so important to put diesel. >> So some of the tier 2 examples we that um that are coming up is a good example is that this is a very form-based code
that has gone away from unit type. Our old code was all about different types of dwellings. Single family homes, duplexes, triplexes, town homes, multif family. Our current code does not use that language. It just talks about unit
count. And as part of that, one of the um unent conse unintended consequences was in some of the low density residential, you can't have duplexes because you have a 4ft side setback and that's preventing a type of housing we want. And so we were proposing some
language that would allow duplexes. So you're allowed to go to the property line. But that's the kind of the level of these tier 2. These are these are minor minor changes um that are not policy changes. And then tier three are focused on
policy changes focused on um significant amendments that impact the uh long-term uh goals of the the plan. And they need to have a planning process because they need to have that robust community engagement to really uh this really ties
into the long range planning. Um, and this will tie into uh, Director Brown's next presentation which gets into the uh, work plan and some of the planning projects that are going on uh, to incorporate some of these things into
tier three. And then just some examples of tier three. This is of course not all of them. Know we've heard from the community, from developers, from our builders on some of these um, tier three. But you know some of the examples is what is a building? I know it sounds
like a small thing, but that actually plays into a lot of our bonuses and a lot of our um intensities. >> Just a minute, please. She she had a question. >> Oh, yes. >> Oh, thank you. You're welcome. >> That wasn't
>> I I don't want to be annoying Matt. I just um can I ask you if the sublots in CX and RX has been added to tier 2? I'm sorry. It's a very annoying question. No, I mean it's it's been added to the list. So, we have um it probably won't
go through with this patch, but that we again we're doing a yearly. We'll be doing this yearly where we're learning a lot from this first year. This has taken more time than we would like. We're hoping the next um 2026. We're hoping it won't be as many as you know 70 plus
tier ones and 20ome tier 2s and um we'll actually fine-tune the process. But what we want to do is this is really about maintaining the code. The tier three issues are about finding the community goals and community policies. Those are the big planning side. The tier one and
tier twos are about just making sure the code still works as we want it to work and we're maintaining it yearly. >> So another example kind of at the tier three is is the RNA districts. We know these these these are in the code but they have need
to be explored more. are we, you know, doing the right things with our RNA districts? And then another example, >> Nicole's question, why can't it be done this year? Why it have to be done >> well next year? >> Uh because we're going the the packets
really already just because of the logistics. So, we're going on January 13th for public hearing. So, that information has to be done about a month in advance um to make sure we're doing the we had to send the advertisement out has to advertise in the newspaper twice. Um, so there's a lot of logistics that
goes into when you start doing changing to the codes. >> She's been asking about this for a while, so I didn't make it. >> Thanks, Joy. I should have asked earlier. It's okay. >> Uh, no. And um, Nicole, I can get better
information for you and once we I don't we have all the information in the working document which will be part of the packet. Um, but I can get that information to you. with that. Um, okay. I'll see if there's >> Sorry, >> before I turn over to Brown.
>> Yes. >> So, first of all, I appreciate the work you're doing on this. I actually really think that the process Oh, hi Miss B. I think the process has actually been really good. You've done a great job stewarding it. I think the tier one, tier two, tier three makes a ton of
sense. as it pertains to the development codes. I'm going to beat the dev horse. I beat all the time when we talk about this that I don't actually see I've investigated in 15 different parcels. Now, it's not the development code primarily that's responsible for
chilling development and um and stopping the um uh implementation or movement towards implementing the vision and the code. And it's the it's the holy trinity of zoning, fire suppression, and engineering.
>> Absolutely. >> Until those three things get worked out, we can perfect the code and we're not going to build anything. >> And so, um, and sorry for the sarc the dripping sarcasm. I can't help myself, but I'm just wondering where in the process
um bringing those three um points on the uh on the triangle are going to come together and we can think about all of those things holistically. >> I think we're we are definitely moving in that direction. We have definitely seen um under the 2003 code, we
definitely saw a lot of barriers with zoning and I think a lot of those barriers have been removed with the current code and we're seeing where the where those barriers are now that uh I think we'll be exploring the best way now to focus on those. But I do think there's some stuff coming hopefully
coming together in 2026 that'll start to look at um at these issues that have come up that have not been zoning related, but we see them on the development review side because we're the ones sitting at the table >> and so I think there will be some opportunity.
>> Just invite I'm sorry probably doing this in on behalf of the chair but invite the hack to be a resource on that. here we have people who finance projects, who develop projects, who design projects, who build projects and so we would love to be part of that
process and it's in fact I think it's one of the things that we're prioritizing later in the meeting as as on our work plan. So would you put us in coach? We'd love to help. Sorry Joy, is that okay? >> That's fine. Thank you all again for the opportunity
to come speak and give kind of an update on where we are with this process. >> So, I'm Kelly Bin. >> Brown Kelly didn't make that typo. I I did just for just just to clarify. Kelly
does typo only. All right. I don't know. Is are we using the microphone? Is it is it necessary? I'll just I'll just talk. It's there. Uh so I am going to provide you with a brief update. Um I think this is our last staff update. Um share with you an
overview of our scope of work for review of our affordable housing dwelling unit manual, our EDU manual, um and the specific focus that the study is going to have on our inlue fee expectations and student housing specifically. So um
as you all know we are required to review the manual on an annual basis. Um and so what we decided to focus on in this first update were um the inloo fees specifically and expectations for student housing. um really because we
are seeing student housing uh development in the community interest in that um and a number of questions have been raised about whether um the expectations for contributions for affordable housing are are are correct are are right sized for student housing
and fair relative to expectations for other sorts of housing. Um, also questions about um where policies for student housing apply geographically, whether or not that geography is appropriate. Um, so you can go oh I can
advance. Okay. So uh so the focus as I just said will really be on uh in fee payments, student housing and also expectations for um bonus height. Um and we will conduct the study uh ultimately
have some recommendations that we'll bring forward. Um the as I just mentioned, sorry I had just gone through some of this, but the uh the criteria for student housing affordability expectations will be looked at. um the geography, you know,
whether the current um focus for student housing requirements is appropriate, if that should be changed, um whether the requirements for student housing should be different than requirements for non- studentent housing. Um and whether we
should have different expectations for the application of bonus height. Uh the process will start with the development of some guiding principles to inform recommendations. Uh we are looking at peer jurisdictions policies and strategies. Um and we're also uh
looking at different methods for how an inlue fee um quotota should be calculated. Um we will be asking questions of of stakeholders uh as we conduct this study. Uh what really should define a
successful outcome? What what what would mean success? Um, should a policy prioritize on-site units or should it prioritize fee payments or is a balance needed? Um, and how should um the production of student housing really be
treated in our community? What are what are truly our goals? What are our concerns uh for student housing? Uh so we are conducting engagement with commissions. Uh we will be sharing an overview of this with council in the new
year. Uh we will be evaluating um study findings. Um we are working with the same consultant who did the tax basement study. So we have a really great baseline of expertise >> 3TP. Yes. To help inform um this work.
You know they already have an in-depth understanding of uh the financial feasibility of different types of development. They're taking a closer look at student housing. uh we'll be developing some policy options and hoping to have recommendations in the spring of this year. Um but ultimately
we're hoping that these recommendations provide a better framework for um meeting our community's goals for for different types of um of of housing in the city. So you all are are doing this now or we
will be doing it and if and when you do how are you going to be reaching out to communities to talk about it and we do have um some students who are working with FAR on um doing a lot of surveys
about how students feel um about um some of these student housing that are going up and can they afford them. So >> yeah, we would be happy to meet with um your interns. Um looking forward to doing engagement. Um we're happy to attend community meetings.
>> Wendy is in the audience and she >> I'm right over here. >> Okay. >> And we'll have information on a web page um that just provides kind of an overview of the study and the different uh touch points for engagement with commissions and and council. >> So you are actually doing the study now.
We we've started the work the kind of the internal analysis of financial feasibility and things like that. We have this you are our first stop in an engagement effort. So looking for feedback from you all in terms of so it would be good to >> so what I'm asking is that you include
far >> we'll do >> because they have a student group friends of far who is actually working on that working on some of that stuff. That would be great >> just to get feedback so we better understand how the students are feeling
if they're feeling the same way we're feeling about these students housing being built on the so I would appreciate it if >> absolutely you >> and click to >> yeah that'd be great >> to circle back to that question from earlier so is the 10th and page in Rose
Hill small area plans paused in reaction to the two large student housing projects that are being proposed and I guess is the study going to happen first? >> Yeah, so I so the the um the tax abatement study is
is wrapping up um this review of the manual recommendations for student housing. You know, that will be concluded in the in the spring. In the meantime, we do expect that there's going to be some discussions with council about questions that have been raised about these large scale projects.
um those questions are uh making it difficult for us to move forward with the long-range planning process because I think there's questions about what should really be looked at within the scope of that small area plan. So, we're hoping that through some engagement with council, we can get some clarity on what
the scope of the the small area planning process should be. Having said that, um, and as Oay alluded to, moving at the speed of trust, you know, it's really important for us to, um, be receiving, um,
knowing that the community is really wanting to move forward. Um, there's no sense in us doing a planning process, you know, kind of on our own. So, I think, but for both of those pieces to kind of be in place is what will help us know how to move forward with a small
area plan. And I think just to add kind of a city council perspective on it. Um I think you know one of the challenges these projects are the main focus of people in the neighborhoods not just because or one of the main focus that's
engaging people not just because of the two individual projects but symptomatic of um underlying zoning districts. and you know to have plans to create a small area plan where you're saying and we're
not going to do anything about the issue everyone is most concerned about for city council I feel like makes it just challenging and then connected to that I would guess a big priority for many people is going to be a desire for
community oriented development um and that has if that's going to be achieved that the plan would need to coincide with zoning changes that make that feasible. Um um you know one example um
you know the community believes like 501 Cherry is a good type of project that we should try to get more of that literally only happened because it required a reasoning with the discretionary decision point. So those are just political decisions city council will have to come to. I don't know if that
answers it at all, but I think those are some of the questions council will be weighing. >> Yeah, Dana or I mean they both like are symbiotic, right? Like they're community like I I thought it might be a good time to get community feedback to inform how but I can see how well we want to I
don't know they're related. I get it. I was excited to see Jen Page and Rose Hill. >> Yeah. and and around the student housing. It's just interesting to get so to hear how there is some perception
from other folks of um how the unit they're using the the school numbers to kind of say, oh, people are moving back in the neighborhood and students are moving out, but that is not
so. And so that's why I want to make sure that the community is involved because there is a whole lot of myth that is not so true when you talk to people who live in the neighborhood or from people who
live in the neighborhood who knows you know like there's this one myth that you know venable people are moving in the neighborhood new people are moving in the neighborhood because the numbers in at venable went up but what happened was
all the kids in West Haven who used to go to Bella Moran are now going to Vanderbal >> and so yeah and and and and then you know there's some other things too that we know who
>> um is renting um you know affordable housing or buying some of these housing and renting truly affordable housing to to folks and it's not the stuff that get newly built But anyway, so I would just it's not Yeah, I would just love to see
you working >> from the community perspective just from to and even Rosale, no one is paying attention to Rosal, but Rosale Drive has a pocket of lowincome communities
>> there that you know um right now nobody's paying attention to it, but I am and some of us is because um we know sooner or later. Um most of those houses um um is probably going to get um
>> up. Just to add to that, I think you know the some of the Welden Cooper C Center's past work could potentially be of some use. About a decade ago, they did that study on trying to estimate school enrollment after the standard in flats
went up and they updated that literally like a year ago and presented that finding at the regional housing partnership and said they are no longer seeing families move in to neighborhoods and they their explicit words were we do not expect additional student apartments
to result in families with children moving into neighborhoods. Um that decade old study is no longer Weldon Cooper's analysis. Um and our original inclusionary zoning
analysis if there's any way to um get with some of the people who developed that it could be of value because one of their findings was that in geographic areas they estimated that our inclusionary zoning was too low and that it could actually be higher particularly
for student housing. um given it was the most profitable housing type. Um and I think it'll be relevant that they estimated anything above six stories in our market is student housing. Um that was explicitly in words on the paper. So when we think six
stories and above, we should really think student housing and think about what that means. And the final thing is I don't know how we do it, but I feel like we really really need to try to connect with UVA to get a sense of what their plans for enrollment growth are.
Um because I really don't think this is just like a talking point. It is totally reasonable that UVA's response to a glut of new private student housing is to just increase enrollment either at an undergraduate or graduate level. Um, and I we have no at least I don't have any
sense of what their long-term plans for enrollment growth are. Um, but I think that is that that's a pattern that has happened in other college towns. >> Well, we do um plan to engage you today. Um, if you have specific individuals
that you'd recommend connecting with, >> I they probably wouldn't listen to anybody in the city. >> Well, I I appreciate the feedback. We will be back. Um but wanted to let you know that we were taking these questions seriously and um this has had not been
on our work plan as a tier three study but um decided to add it kind of midstream um so that we could try to address some of these concerns and do think that the recommendations can have an impact if not on projects that are currently in the pipeline you know in in
the future. So um >> be doing um a market analysis of student housing >> that is not in our scope um at the moment. >> Oh yeah 3TP is doing an analysis of the student housing market.
>> So areas cost how much? Which kinds of buildings cost how much? How are they changing? >> Yeah, >> it's an interesting question. >> I made a stab at it. >> Um >> go ahead. I actually need more data to really speak confidently. But um I think
that piece would be really valuable >> about how to regulate student housing. It's not all moving at the same rate. I think >> Yeah. um as you were speaking like the it occurred to me that even like through
all the presentations and discussions that have happened so far today and I was trying to map it out all in my mind about what study goes where and how it informs the next piece and the plan that moves forward. Like I do think there would be help helpful to have sort of a
visualized diagram that shows the intentional um building of our studies and our work to lead to whatever outcomes we're trying to pursue. >> Um because I know like we are here for two hours now. We're going to come back
next month and we'll have forgotten all those dates >> because we're not in it every day. So having some reference point for us to understand how those studies are and we know they're intentional. We know they're purposeful, but how they relate to the long range planning, how they relate to
>> um the the outcomes we're trying to get at the zoning side, at the other the other parts of the the triangle that Dan was referring to, we went through this process um you know, going back in time to like the 2018 time frame where the uh the first
real or the first meaningful affordable house or housing assessment, you know, need study came about the planning commission had begun their comp plan process. Um the the hack was proposing for the to do the affordable housing
plan and there were it was all of a jumble for a while until it took us probably a year to like work through what the planning commission was doing what we were doing what the city council wanted to see before we started to get a plan that was clear and and contiguous. And I feel like there's an opportunity
to redo that in this moment recognizing there's a lot going on between now and say the end of 26. >> That's good feedback. That's something we can think about figure out how to communicate that. Uh we are in the process of developing some web page updates that should help a little bit
understand the individual items a more. Um but I think showing how they sequence with one another would be helpful. Agreed. And if we go back to the earlier one or earlier presentation, this this would be just a decision city council would need
to make, but I wonder if kind of a political tier on the changes would be warranted because some of the bigger changes will require study, but some of them I feel like don't require any study or analysis. It's just as city council
make the decision or not. Um, and just >> but that's city council to make that decision. Okay. Thank you. >> You're welcome. Okay. So, now number next on the agenda is to approve our November 12 hack
meeting minutes. >> So, move. >> Is there a second? >> Any discussion? All in favor? >> I. >> Any oppose? and then review and identify priorities.
>> So, I'm just pulling up the minutes on the screen, too, because Mike did a nice job of capturing so we don't have to try to remember everything that happened last meeting. >> Yeah, I was I was looking at this right before the you pul pulled it out,
Maline. And um the three thing we went through a two vote two round process for trying to take a whole range of ideas and try to figure out what we were going to focus on first. And the three there were two clear winners with a a close third. But
essentially, you know, what Dan was referring to around the triangle between um the zoning code and then related regulations was one of the top focus areas. the budget advocacy um and IAT is the
second. And Kelly, I know you're getting food at the moment, but I'm gonna just loop in to the city council meeting that happened on Monday and how there was a reference at one point to the work that I think Mike Michael you brought it up or around the IAT the um uh investment
analysis. I can never remember intervention analysis tool. Thanks, Dan. Um >> yes. Yes, >> that we had done years ago and it sort of has sat and languished since. >> You sound like you were interested in and so one of the things I was going to
suggest out of as an outcome of this meeting is that we uh establish a small working group and then to meet with Kelly and whoever you think is appropriate on your team um just to do an intro to it to see what was what was there and then we can see whether what
we think would be helpful moving forward. You're welcome. >> Um and then this uh the other the third one was placebased in incentives and that's specifically this is at um
just leave >> to stop out right now. Yeah. >> Okay. Well, this gets at the small area plan um and around the potential for designated revenue for implementing uh small area plan um priorities through a
tiff structure or any other sort of structure where it allows for um community directed spending and prioritization in those communities. So, a lot of the things already talk about like the things that are already in play. Um I had not heard that the small
area plan process had sort of stymied for a minute because of the you know what you were bringing for >> assessing. >> Yeah maybe stop word is a strong word assessing we're >> but I think just to reinforce I'll say this from my perspective but I think this is true for the hack as well that
that is one of the priorities that we wanted to see happen. So as you contemplate how that fits into the puzzle of priorities that's a that's a high one on our end. Don't forget sunshine the land bank acquisition
on Monday >> is a priority >> well not I know I know I know >> that actually not to I I think that's really really important and could have
been a solution to the two projects moving forward right now Having very aggressive and very pointed and directed land acquisition by a collective group
would be great while we have an opening of the zoning code in wealthy neighborhoods so that they can we can build in those wealthy neighborhoods but protect >> yeah I don't whatever we're trying >> agreed well the one thing that I
thought was interesting in Sam's comments during the work session around that is that he seemed like I didn't he wasn't totally explicit, but he seemed to imply that he was less supportive of like a strike fund for example, more supportive of other forms of
intervention, but he didn't really go into details on what those might be. So, I wonder I do wonder, you know, I don't know what further conversation there is to be had, but anyway. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, I was a little disappointed with how defensive Sam was.
I think the planning commission meeting was good. I think that there were a lot of issues identified in the planning commission meeting and then it kind of seemed like a council meeting was really defensive because of those identified issues and that was a little disappointing. Um
to say that there's a process in place for analyzing affordable housing because we have an RFI or whatever is a little ridiculous. Um >> what >> he said that he Sam said that there is a
process in place currently for analyzing affordable housing priorities and affordable housing outcomes because we have a request for information process. >> Yeah, it does make sense. >> I think we I think we have an opportunity I know there was some language in one of those slides that
spoke to how staff wants to work to improve that process. >> Yeah. to increase transparency and have some more um standards for criteria that we're all in agreement of. Yeah. >> Yeah. Develop criteria for evaluating applications, making sure that there's a
public a time frame for public review. I think that's something that staff wants to work on this year. So perhaps there's different opinions on how much a process is in place today, but I hope we can all agree that there's an opportunity for improvement moving
forward. something that NDS is very much interested in pursuing, working on >> and do you guys see that as being the IAT or is that something different in your mind? I >> think it's a tool
potentially a tool that can help inform that process. I don't know if it is the process. Sure. So what by way of sort of general observation, I think that and I and I spoke to this
at the planning commission meeting last time um that part of OA's job fits into this box, but this is these processes need to be
within a strategic framework that everybody understands and can refer to. And we really don't have sort of strategic level thinking on a lot of these things. In part of that is
because there are people who have that as a piece of their job but not a big enough piece of their job and the rest of their job takes priority over that. I mean, you know, when you're when you're busy trying to bail out the boat, you don't have any bandwidth to
try figure out how to plug the hole if you're busy, you know, I mean, it's the thing that's immediately in front of you that you're dealing with. And so, I was very relieved to see that we are hiring a citywide chief strategy officer because I think that can really inform some of these larger decision-making
processes and how they all inter how they all interact with each other. But that is a very important role. You know, I have been on the hack for 12 years. I've been involved in the city's housing efforts and one of the constant refrains
from staff, from commissions, from council, from planning commission is that a lot of this is really in spite of itself really siloed and not integrated well. And I think part of that is the larger questions that we need to start
asking about, you know, larger scale processes, long-term thinking, how it all fits together. And there needs to be somebody who does just that. So, I'm really excited. Hopefully, we've got some good candidates for that position that they can start putting a bit of
stick about and print, you know, and impressing that because otherwise to Sunshine's earlier point about let's see how all this interacts. And that's on a very small scale. That's easy fix. Yeah, I can graphically show you this, but to make sure that we've got this in the broader outline. So, I'm not sure I've
got a point to this other than I really hope we get a chief strategy officer on board and they are um loud and aggressive about developing some strategic tools because I think that's one thing that we bump into a lot here, >> particularly particularly if we're
hiring, you know, consultants have that capacity, but unfortunately it's not a static situation. They can say here's a way to think about this like you can't. >> So, so let me all add to that and I'm channeling Osite is that yes, having a chief strategy officer developing a
strategic plan that can guide us in the short term benchmarks for measuring success helps inform prioritization. Yes. But our comprehensive plan and um the supporting elements of it should really be what I think is guiding how we
do our work. And if we don't feel like we have enough guidance in our comprehensive plan or maybe some of the guidance and elements for comprehensive plan is a little outdated, you know, maybe that's where some other focus should be. >> Agreed.
>> Um, and I also think that there's just a lot we can do as a program moving forward to help clarify, you know, how things move, pieces move together, what areas we're focusing on in any given year. I'm looking forward to developing a work plan for the housing program for
the next two years that you all will be a part of helping us to create. And I think that that in and of itself will give us a lot of comfort in knowing how we're moving forward. >> I I agree. I just think that there needs to be somebody who's 100% of their time
is the strategic thinking piece and they can deal with a full-time job to do that. >> Do the strategic think I mean and not just for NDF. I mean for the whole city. >> Yeah. and to be able to sort of swoop in and say, "Okay, let's try to integrate." >> So, I'm really excited about that. I
understand that there are interviews going to be starting in January. >> So, do we feel like we have our four priorities? >> I think so. >> Yeah. Well, the land bank
>> Nicole is the land. I mean, it is right in the first round. >> I mean, yes. Four. >> I don't know. I'm sure we're all tired of this. >> So, >> okay.
>> Can I ask a question? >> Sure. >> Of Kelly thinking about >> um let's say January, February, March in terms of the engagement with you and your staff. Um, given the priorities we've outlined,
given what you shared today, your you and your staff shared today, what do you think are the the three things that get focused on from your perspective in those first three months? >> You are putting me on. >> I am >> and maybe it's a followup.
>> So, so share again, you're you're part on that. So it's the ordinance ordinance and related regulations the triangle that Dan was talking about. >> Okay. >> The land acquisition and holding land bank other tools >> land acquisition and holding strate
which is the small area plan and that sort of thing and then budgeting process. >> Okay. >> So I I mean we are actively engaged in number one. So that and that's already on our work plan. That will continue to be on our work plan. you know, refining
the ordinance, finding other ways to facilitate the development we want to see. So, that will stay on the top of our list. Um, >> can I >> small area planning? Huge fan of it. I think we should be doing more of it. Um,
so that and I think it's a way of prioritizing our investment, you know, in the community. So, that'll be at the top of the list. Um but then we have so many other things that we're working on. We have a CISRP evaluation. We are
trying to develop recommendations for tax abatement and student housing. So it's going to be more than three things. >> Yeah. >> That we're all doing trying to do in the first part of next year. >> Hearing you say that >> developing loan agreements. Sorry. >> No. hearing hearing you say that I mean
it's just like a huge amount of work and a huge amount of new initiatives. Is I know our affordable housing plan called for increasing staff levels for implementation of it. Um, >> is there a sense, you know, additional
staff positions would be helpful or necessary to do a lot of this? >> Say no. >> Well, I think it's >> so the the housing program evaluation will have recommendations in it for what for what a program, you know, how a
program should be staffed that's trying to accomplish all the things we're trying to accomplish. So I think that will be a very important report for informing recommendations for this year and for probably many years into the future. Um the manager's operating budget, I'm not sure when it comes out,
you know, what in what he will include in there in terms of his recommendations, but definitely he is aware of the workload and the need to make sure that our team is supported. He spoke to that um on Monday night. You know, I think that's probably all I
should say in this forum. >> Say you told Sam. >> Yes. Manager, excuse me. >> No, I remember statement about it. >> Yeah. Does that help? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Can I go back to where you started and
and um maybe try to get a little more specific because I what I heard Matt talk about was and I heard you say prioritization like it's already underway around the ordinance side. Um, with all due respect, I I heard Matt kind of like fumbling a little bit around how to address the other two
parts of that triangle and how they integrate into the work plan over the next year. >> And that is a priority for us. And so, just wanting to get more specific on what that looks like. >> Yeah. I mean, he he wants to bring together, you know, a working group that can start to think through those
challenges and develop some ideas for how to troubleshoot. The challenge is that a lot of things are going to be outside of the control of our department very honestly, right? Potentially even outside the control of the city if you're talking about building code
issues. Um, so while I think we really want to try to dedicate some time and mental energy to thinking through what else is going to be needed to see our vision become a reality. We we will need to try to like you know
manage expectations about what it is that the city can can accomplish at the end of all of that >> realistically. Right. It is a lot like utilities are a big part of what Yeah. I mean love to have utilities.
>> I was going to say can they come talk to us or is that not >> there there are some constraints that we really I think need to do a deeper dive on to better understand. So more to come. >> More to come. I laugh when I say that to
myself because I had a boss that used to always say that more to come and it was very frustrating. Yes. >> Because it's not very satisfying. >> Matt wants to start a working. >> It sounded like that, but I would didn't hear any clear plans for it. Just a
desire. I think he wants to get some more of his thoughts down on paper before he makes a and sure he's I'm probably oversharing at the moment, but it's definitely the intent, you know, that we focus some energy and effort on this
next year. Is that something we could ask them to bump up because it seemed like put more energy into it would probably mean June, July, August and I think we know how much of a priority it is but and so and it's good to know that you all are really
interested in it and willing to be supportive of it. >> Well, we can get a committee to work with him. I think that that would be the the goal of working group when I'm here and I'm hearing more to come and you know it's it's already January.
>> You want to know a date? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I'll have to get I'll have to get back to you on that. >> Okay. So, you'll bring it back to us in January. >> Well, I will share something in January. >> Okay. Thank you. Well, I think you did talk about bringing up the overall NDS work plan
>> um at some point too in the future just to show the broad scope of everything that is is going on and that may be helpful to Sunshine's earlier point too of >> how things are all working together at least in the realm of one department.
>> Okay. Well, on the point of working with groups, sorry, >> go ahead. >> Can I ask a quick question? >> Uh because I wanted to ask Matt now. Do you all keep track of in the preapp meetings what the issues are? >> Yes. I mean the the the preapp meetings are one of the best data points to
inform what's on that long list. >> Yeah. Okay. >> That's like Patrick attends those meetings for the taking of records. >> Okay. Well, I will ask for those later. >> Um just so back so back to the IAT
piece. um the the working group there um in like one of the things we did at in the sort of like working days of the IAT is we structured it so that no more than two of the commissioners so we didn't have to have it be a formal public meeting we could just get do working
group related stuff before it came back to the the committee as a whole I would recommend at least in terms of a meeting with you and whoever else you designate um that that is the right format just to catch you up and see what you think of it and see what their next steps might
be. So, I was just going to see if there are two folks who would be interested in participating that from the hack side >> on the IAT. >> Uh, you got three. >> Oh, you need two. >> Nicole, you and >> that's too many.
>> Two, >> Dan. >> You can only have two unless you call. >> You only have two. >> Yeah. >> Well, >> but you can still come to the meeting. game. >> No, can't come to the meeting. >> But, you know, I will point out that
>> what if there's rotating >> what did you say? >> Rory has retired from the planning commission. So, >> I think it'll be two of us plus Rory. >> Yeah, Rory. I think he's he's great with his stuff. Well, >> he he also he was the one who helped.
>> Oh, I know. I talked to about it. All right. Well, let's try to find a time with the two of us and Rory and then you and whoever else you want to bring. >> Sure. >> Uh in the new year. Okay. >> Okay. Anything else?
Okay. Now we move to public comment. >> Never mind. Sorry. >> Have any There's no one on >> uh No, nobody join. >> Okay. in the audience. Any public comments? Wendy.
>> Hi everyone. Um I'm Wendy. I just wanted to make a public comment to say that I really want this body to take a stand on this issue of LD Collective on West Main Street and the Mark on Seventh Street. Um, I think that I've been to every hack
meeting since September and Miss Joy has raised the issue at every single meeting and asked for this body to do something about it and prioritize it and it really doesn't get much traction. Um, but as the housing advisory committee, I think it's really important that this body in
specific takes a stand and makes a recommendation to city council or whatever it is that you all can do to put pressure on city council and the planning commission to change the zoning code. Um, I think that y'all you should do that. Um, because these buildings are
going to be catastrophic for core black neighborhoods. They're going to accelerate gentrification and dispossession. Um, I know that y'all are all approaching housing from different hats. Y'all are, some of y'all are developers with Habitat for Livable. Um, but I think that amid all the noise of
supply and demand or how displacement actually happens, I think that what this actually just comes down to is like keeping black people in their homes. And I think that if you all had the opportunity, like if you ask yourself, if you had the opportunity to intervene and do something about Vinegar Hill or
Gospel Hill at the time, like would you have and if your answer is like truly and genuinely yes, then I think you have to be willing to vocally oppose these luxury developments. >> I I second that wholeheartedly. And Wendy, I really want to say like, yo, I
really commend you because you got a shout out last night at that bar meeting. I know this not the public comment for y'all, but I truly truly second what she's saying. And I think y'all should stand on what she's saying because y'all are a part of this community. You know what I'm saying? And your word really do hold some weight.
Everybody at that table, y'all hold weight and y'all can make a change. Y'all can hold y'all can hold that area down and y'all can hold what's left of urban areas. Y'all can hold us down. You know what I'm saying? Y'all can really do that. But Wendy, yo, I'm telling you, like, you tough. You hear me? I'm
talking about like you really got the gift to get because you be in every room and when you walk in, it's like they going to know you coming with that with that work. You hear me? So, I commend you because, bro, you show up, man. You show out every single time. You don't hit no, you don't miss. And I truly
appreciate it. Like, I truly appreciate the information you gave last night about that being a slave plantation. That jump was just like boom. like you dropped the you know what I'm saying? He got on his computer instantly like hold on this it and then he stopped typing. I was like yeah it is you hear me? So you come with them. You come with loads.
Like you come with loads of information. And I really really appreciate you for real. Like you are one of those people who going to be in history in those books with black people. You know what I mean? In those neighborhoods and be like, "Yo, when he got like she was that girl like you're going to be in those books the same way some of those people
were that helped save Hill." You know what I'm saying? For real. You stood there on the front line from day one. I do appreciate Wendy because I don't do the cold and and I don't do the cold. She show up. >> Yeah. All the time.
>> Anyway, anything else? >> Okay. Can I have a motion to our next meeting is >> Well, do we want to talk about that? >> Uhhuh. >> Do we want to talk about >> Oh. Oh, yes. I'm sorry, Nicole. Yes. We
do. Y'all want to comment on what you said? Do we want to set a meeting to talk about it? I mean doesn't have a >> you know we don't to their point doesn't matter in in the sense of making any
change but this ends up making something symbol like um you know adding hack's voice matters to it >> do we want what I will say is it does I
mean it does matter to me being that I'm the chair that um I hearing y'all view about what we're saying it to me from based on what I'm hearing and double checking with my mentors who is getting me to understand this whole zoning thing
it was a miss from all of us we did not realize how this was going to impact it was a miss and so a lot of times when we decide things there are things we don't foresee but now we're seeing it and it
needs to be addressed because it is going to be an impact. So, I I I definitely would love to either put it on the agenda, talk about it, and let's take a vote, do whatever, or make a recommendation back to council.
>> Um, I just want to say I truly appreciate you uh being able to uh put on the front street, you know what I mean, that you guys had a little bit of, you know what I mean, like y'all messed up a little bit. What was that lady's name that was up there as a volunteer? She had the black and white on. She had white hair and she had admitted
>> um Louis >> is that her name? She was one of the bar members. Yeah. She had admitted completely all around like it's all of our fault. You know what I mean? So I really I like to hear when you can admit that it is your fault or you played a part in it being your fault. You know what I'm saying? That you didn't you're not keeping that part away from the
public. Like everybody make mistakes. You know what I'm saying? And we didn't know that it was going to trickle down like dominoes like that. But now we do know. So it's a chance that we could do something about it. You know what I'm saying? Well, I've got a million thoughts. Basically, all I think about
>> if it's at all possible for you all to meet before your regularly scheduled meeting or to delegate to whoever's willing to be on a committee that would that would make a statement on hacks behalf because I think that the city council work session is two days before your next regular meeting date. I think
it's going to be on January 19th. >> Where is it in the process? Um they've only had a pre-application um go before B and >> sorry last night.
>> Is there anything left for discretionary review? >> What's what's Oh, the B deciding on height >> and then it probably will be appealed to council like >> you're talking about the mark. >> Well, it's not at that point yet though, right? I'm just saying there's more
discretionary review period. >> So this is the one after the after the application is submitted then it goes to the bar to decide whether they want to curb the height. Is that so their discretion is on height. Is that is that correct? >> Yes.
>> Two stories. Two stories. >> They can knock it back two stories. >> Another design that historic landmark. >> Yes. So the seven and a half street one last night got that got denied but Elvie collected when he went to the bar meeting couple of months ago or maybe
three months ago they were told to come back to the community and work with the community. They came back one time and just said this is what we're going to do and we haven't heard from them >> and they didn't door knock. They didn't outreach to nobody. >> They didn't outreach or do anything. Um
Kazina Howard reached out to us and said hey have you heard from them and we said no. We set up a meeting. It was at legal aid. We spent two and a half hours. Um, and we had people like Miss John Sales
and different people in the room talking to them and they still was not hearing us. This is what they're going to do. But we haven't had or seen any movement. They haven't we've been keeping up with the B. Nothing has happened. And you
know I I don't think that they have >> they don't have to come to you all. >> And that's the issue with the myth. >> They don't have to come to who >> is they don't have to come to city council. >> They don't have to submit anything to city council by right. They just go
straight to the D. >> Right. They are entitled to this amount of development. And because that decision has already been made by council >> and I'm saying that's a miss. we miss because the community doesn't have a so
in it until the B meeting >> right >> and that's >> that's the only time they have a comment >> that is the decision that was made >> and their rights have not vested >> and the the other relevant timeline is
city council will have a work session I believe our second meeting in January >> to right to discuss possible changes related to student housing generally whether that could be zoning changes, special exception
permits, additional bar perview, geographic coverage. >> Yeah. many things. And um >> staff will be presenting on the scope of work for our study for student housing and the scope of what those recommendations could do to um
address what how those how those recommendations could impact future student housing projects. But we have to be um just really mindful of the fact that these applications are already submitted projects um and the fact that they have
entitlement already under the code as you think about what sort of changes you might want to consider moving forward. But they haven't their rights haven't invested and so broad stroke changes can be made that would impact these
>> and um I'm sorry I was a second >> just wait a minute >> clarify what you mean by there they have >> there there are if we and I don't know if I agree with this honestly I >> right >> stay up at night thinking about this but there are
>> what are changes that we that the city can decide to make that are policy oriented that impact more than one pro property and project that aren't spot zoning. >> Okay. Yeah. Okay. Now I have the
distinction. I got your >> thing the city can do if they want to do. >> I second that and obviously that is a very controversial decision but it is a decision that city council can make. And the second point is >> the discussion even if both these
projects move forward because they get full vesting rights they are symptomatic of what is going to happen in all of the X districts. >> So >> that part is >> that an example. >> So it's it's going to be relevant to think about whether city council does or
doesn't change anything. And I think it will also be useful to have city council provide um a clear perspective on you know their opinion on it. And it's a very controversial issue. I think um obviously hack is not going to determine what happens but it is you know it is a
voice city council >> with or without still going to drum that beat going forward. >> So Joy, can I ask some clarification in terms of what you would like to see come in front of of the hack? So I I see like
four different four different subdivisions of the question. One is the the application package that's currently in front of the BAR. Um two is the place of the BAR the role
in the zoning code because one could argue that the BAR being part of it at this point is kind of out of order in a way. But that's that's >> big question elsewhere. >> It's a big question for that's probably
a tier three type of thing. Changes to the zoning code. So so rewrite of the zoning code to potentially like scale back the intensity of >> parcels. Can I can I please? >> Sorry.
>> And and and then student housing. There are questions about student housing. And so I I just want some clarity about what it is that you would like this body to weigh in on on the application process on the the particular application package or the policies that are kind of
the policies that may be out of alignment. >> I think how I would answer that question is how it is all of it is impacting um the neighbor the our neighborhoods >> the historical landmark. >> It's all of it right. It's it's it's
it's the height. >> Yeah. >> Um Oh, you wait a minute honey. >> Oh, my bad. >> It's the one one is the height. >> Um two is first thing is that that's
something we did not foresee. I we the community didn't foresee. Maybe you all foreseeed it, but we didn't. But now that we're seeing that um your monster building like that in a neighborhood does impact, that's something that needs
to be be changed. And then the other thing was that there were no community involvement in any of it. None whatsoever. So for me is all of what you just asked. >> Yes. >> It's all about that community, right?
And so um so yeah, you had something you needed to say. And I I do sorry I didn't mean to interrupt you down. I just the way I think about it is >> there needs to be and I think everyone here would agree there needs to be the
city acting to write historic unjust things that the city did in the past related to land use and and minority communities. Right. Like there's that the city should act and and do something reparative. >> Yes. So then does that mean that we have
lower height? Does that mean we have a land bank or a late acquisition entity? Does that mean zoning changes need to happen? Right? Like all the things Dan asked. And it is like I kind of am differential like what do what does it
look like to have a repair happen? I don't know the answer to that. I I I I think it starts with one undoing what you did not foresee and two you listen to the community, you plan with
the community and you build with the community and and and that none of that happened from either one of them. None of that happened. And and and and I will go back to the dairy central. Their essential
was a prime example that this shouldn't even happen again because they're essential came in have a couple of meeting and they promised the community something and then they did not do it.
They did the opposite which now is um causing a lot of issues in the community as far as traffic and all kinds of stuff. So, I just think that we need to pay attention to the the what's left of
our our communities. And so, that's where I'm coming from, right? I um I mean, the standard we basically said we don't like the standard. The standard is overshadowing. And I think um I can't
remember her name. She used to be my annoying person at at the at the planning commission, but I loved her that day when she said this is a mistake. >> I can't remember her name. >> Jenny >> Jenny >> something with a K. >> Jenny Kelly.
>> Yeah, she said this is a the standard is a mistake, right? And here it is. We're going to go even four story higher than what is there at the standard. Again, you all don't see how it impact the
residents who live in 828, 822, and 8:14. That standard. >> I do. They do. >> You're not living it. You're not seeing it. And then there was supposed to been an entrance to West Main and all they
gave them was just a pathway and that's going to be closed off if that building go up. So again, that's why our residents don't trust any process. Even with us doing redevelopment right now, they're showing up, but they're saying
they're going to do what they want to do anyway. So come on. I don't know what else I can say to you all is that this is something that is if we win if if we lose this battle,
it's gonna wherever it's going to be any pockets of lowincome community. It's happening. I'm already in fight field >> and and I would I would just add I think to everything you said and agree with that and and would add I think
clarification on just the basic issue is by right 7 to 11 stories of student housing adjacent to Tenth and Page Fil Rose Hill. >> Is that good or bad? because there are people who think it's good and they want
more of it to happen and that's I don't agree with that but that's a legitimate perspective. Obviously those folks are scared to say that out loud right now because but >> I would say sorry >> sorry >> I keep interrupting people >> you know yeah no I'm just done but I think um I think that is kind of
important in um see where that takes you know the community conversation um and I and we had another mistake I mean the call to mobile home park was bought after it was reszoneed RX3 which allows five stories and unlimited density of that parcel you know maybe there was a
less we could have learned there too about >> how capitalism works but >> but anyway I don't want to hold up anybody because it's like 210 but again it would be nice for it to be on um on um
>> who sets the um what is on the agenda >> you all suggest but it's important to hear from you all is it something you're willing to be on Joy.
>> For me, it's a resounding yes. I was just trying to figure out what it is. So, there's like different it is doing things. I'm hearing displacement >> and then >> but I mean I hear an urgency about a particular application is in front and
so so the hack speaking about that is different. >> It's related but it's different than the hack speaking about height in zones adjacent to R. just say that sorry >> we're going to be we're going to be useless talk if we're just talking
without any any kind of goals like we have to like I heard and I'm moved by the urgency that I heard look stop this building and >> and so we could talk about what what is it about this particular these projects
that makes it so urgent and from that conversation maybe bore out what particular particular action steps council can or should do if anything. >> Would you like to schedule a special meeting for this topic? >> Sure. Before
Emily >> Yeah. Um I think there are very specific things you all could say. Click send a letter to council on Monday that I'm happy to forward to Meline and she can circulate it. But what you could talk about is changing the core neighborhood
corridor overlay. I think it is an overlay. um to decrease height substantially from what it is cuz right now it can be it can be close to what they're asking for and they're not in a core neighborhood or overlay right now. And that was what the
oversight was was not to have done that. But um you could do that so it's not spot zoning like identify all of the core neighborhood corridors in the city that would be relevant and decrease the height in all
of them. But I love the idea of a special meeting because I really think you all can impact what city council will talk about on the third Monday of the month. >> Can you clarify and Kelly just left, but uh in terms of what is actually on the
docket for the 20th for city council relative to this? I'm just trying to see if it at the special meeting. I hear the call for a special meeting. I just want to see if there's actually agency that would be meaningful. >> No, go ahead. It's just it's really as broad as kind of what we're talking
about now. They've had like two separate discussions about the discussion like it's so I I don't think anyone really knows what the work sessions are generally mostly led by yeah they don't they don't usually have an agenda come
together in advance like we do for everything else on the agenda. And so there's no action expectations out of that meeting necessarily. >> And it it's very much going to be a city council discussion because this is inherently something that really does not involve staff. >> Staff is mostly looking for knowing
where city council stands on a lot of items. >> Yeah. But but I I I think it'll be as broad as you said. And when Lloyd and myself requested this, um the explicit at that time, the goal was to have a work session to
discuss student housing as a whole related to underlying zoning districts and whether we want to change that. >> I don't know if that's helpful. I would love to know what sunshine. >> Yeah, I mean I think it it lives like I
hear 100% uh the concerns the lived experience the the lives to be impacted. What I know is being balanced on the a diff I'm not going to say other side of the equation, but a different side of the equation is
the risk of um downzoning on sites that then gives purchase for other entities or other advocacies that aren't really rooted in the community in the same way to pursue downzoning for their own purposes
>> to undermine the the the reasonzoning purpose that we came up with in the first place. And so the the big question is just like how to do this in a way that is responsive to the community request without opening the door and causing further un unanticipated harm.
Like you know we're like we're we're trying to fix a miss but we don't want to do something that then opens up the door to another miss. >> Yeah. Just like this a couple. >> Uh so that's where I'm like I'm still in stewing and trying to figure out how to do it most effectively. Uh I think
everyone's stewing with that. Like that's why city council is like binging it back and forth and talking in generalities because the the out the the solution isn't abundantly clear how to do it in a way that doesn't then potentially cause further harm
>> and I I totally agree and I would just add I think I think if fear is a concern I don't think we should have that stop us from trying to get into the most refined zoning we can things change, but the
political center in Charlottesville, true, >> is changed so much. Well, >> many ways has changed, but the the downzoning pressure in in the rich neighborhoods, I I just don't see that happening. >> There's the constituency has ran
candidates and didn't just lose, lost terribly. Um, and I think part of this sadness and limitations of zoning too is the market on its own is naturally seeing the least change in the wealthiest neighborhoods. They're already not changing just because of the
mark, >> the alderman, >> which is why we in like part of the zoning effort was to have this distinguished zoning between core neighborhoods and the wealthier neighborhoods to try to redistribute the development pressure and not exacerbate,
you know, development within the the core neighborhoods. So, let me um might I suggest that we're talking about a special meeting where we're not exactly sure what the topic where the pointy end of the spear on the topic is, but we know what the topic is, right? And also
that this is a good segue into that relationship between the neighborhood the core neighborhood zoning which and its relationship to this and maybe this is a larger conversation about the neighborhood zoning the neighboring overlays and the relationship and that's
a that's probably a worthy topic in and of itself and we might as well do a special meeting so you so we've got something to say at the work session. And I I think one of the most important questions to me is really like special use permit, special exception permits because I actually think that really
squares the circle of the concerns you raised because I think if you have low base height, lower density of special use permit, the evidence that our special use permit process was the constraining factor to development is
pretty weak. Um, it could be >> applications weren't weren't put forward to you because of the >> No, and that's fair. And I don't think they should be >> you want to everywhere, but allow you to contact
>> agree with you. I think that might be the way. I just have the same. >> No, I think it's it's reasonable. >> Okay. So we'll get with >> I can circulate um an email to find a time special meeting. >> Motion to adjourn.
>> All in favor? We got to get >> I'm glad that Wendy and you keep bringing it up. Um >> yes, >> it is like all I think about >> that. That's all we've been doing. >> See, that's right. like we re
>> got to do. Yeah, they doing >> I'm not surprised. >> Okay. All right. time. Am I right?