Quick round of introductions. Although I think none of us is maybe none of us is new, but we'll do it anyway. Um I'm Gigas. I live in Belmont. I'm the co-chair of BPAC. Also say your favorite piece of winter outerwear. Mine is my
trusty gown vest. >> Kyle Robins school coordinator with the city. Um, and I This is winter inner wear, but I really love it. Long underwear.
>> I know. And you And you didn't use the new angled face layer. >> That could be an outer layer, Kyle. >> Sure. >> I'm Herb Ley. Live in North downtown. I
am a bike freak and my favorite piece of winter outerwear is brand new. My wife just >> a news a beautiful >> can't beat that. >> I love it. [laughter]
>> Um Jacer I live in Belmont and I don't like winter and so my favorite Oh no. I'll show you my new piece of favorite outerear. Look at this muppety thing that I got for when you ride your bike. You can put it on like this. [laughter] That's what I love. May
>> I'm sure right. I live in spring. My favorite winter outerwear is probably the Patagonia down jacket I wear everywhere. >> Thomas, >> uh, Tommy Sopranic, bike and pedestrian coordinator. Um,
probably the orange raincoat that I wear while biking every day. Um, I had that for 10 years and never wore it. And then when I started biking, I was like, this is perfect and I wear it every day.
All right, Zoom folks. >> There was a call and I went >> Oh, sorry. Uh, we'll start with Josh Crown. Uh, name where you live and favorite piece of winter outwear or inear. >> Yeah. >> Hey, uh, Josh Kron, Locust Grove, North
Avenue. Um, I'm like herb, but I'm a scarf guy. >> Scarf guy. Uh, can you pass it pass the mic? Passing it to Ethan. >> Hey, uh Ethan Tate. Uh Martha Jefferson
neighborhood. Uh favorite winter outwear is ski boots. Uh started getting my six-year-old into skiing this year and uh that is a lot of fun. So, I will pass it to Peter Krebs. >> Yeah, I'm Peter Krebs. Uh I'm a Belmont resident. Uh, and I work for the Pedmont
Environmental Council. My favorite newish piece of outerwear is um like waterproof ski mittens that allow me to walk, bike, or run in any weather. And my hands are good at least. Um, yeah,
I'll pass to Az. >> Hi everyone. Azish Falabi, a Belmont resident. And um great question. I never leave home without my puffy coat once it's below 40. So love that. Love that coat.
>> Pass the mic. >> All right. Um Zoe, Zoe Mackenber, transit planner with the city. I am um was using today my new gloves that are tactile that I can use on my phone while I was out doing bus
inventory. So that's a good one. >> Heck yeah. >> And I will pass it to Y. >> So uh Y North downtown probably my lap gel gloves for bike with this this hand.
[laughter] Nice. Uh Paul, >> I'm Paul Rousel. I'm the city's ADA coordinator and I really don't have a favorite pair of or any kind of clothes for the winter. I like the winter so I'll just I relax in it. It's great
times. >> Just embrace the gold. >> Yes. Awesome. >> All right. Uh, I see Cindy and Josh are panelists but maybe are not or sorry our attendees but are not panelists but Tommy can allow you to talk if you'd like to join the meeting.
>> I'll promote them to >> they can accept. I think I've already done this before. >> Yeah. So Cindy and Josh if you just accept Tommy's invitation then. All right. And Josh Karp will pass it to you. >> Okay. Josh
lives near Forsell's Park and leads the ebike lending library and I don't know his favorite winter or outear. >> I'm going to say goggles. >> Goggles. Goggles. Great. Let's go with that. >> Lives in [clears throat] a windy neighborhood. >> Um and Cindy, welcome you to join us at any point if you like. Um and find also
if you'd rather not. Um thanks everybody. Um approval of the agenda and meeting notes. I just want to acknowledge Meredith and her excellent uh meeting notes and um even if they don't arrive when when she would like
them to, they're very thorough and uh just really grateful that she shows up every month um and records what we talked about. Um I'm happy to move to approve the agenda and meeting notes from last month.
>> Yeah. We need a second. Great. There we go. We good. Anyone? >> How about a raz? >> A puzz. Yeah, zoom. We're good. >> Right. We'll share some public comments.
Anyone have a public comment or feedback? >> Uh, yeah. Hi. Um, I would like to talk about the budget and I'm I'm sorry if I didn't have time to like really closely look at it, but my understanding is that
it's not much and it's even lower than like many years ago. And I heard that also the region one of the main reason was that there's not specific project attached to it and the city wouldn't
budget without specific project. So I was really kind of it's hard to reconcile because based on what I know um bike infrastructure is like one of the like really high return project uh
every dollar invested usually people estimate $3 in return uh in the future due to the improvement in public health uh productivity low maintenance of the infrastruure
structure and so on and so forth. And also uh people estimated that every dollar I mean every mile uh changed from driving to biking that return that has a
like a dollar or more of return to the society and it also cuts down carbon emission like almost eliminate carbon emission and the ownership cost of driving a car or owning a car is like uh more than uh
10k per year, right? And that can directly go to local businesses and studies and studies have shown that uh people on the bike spend either about the same amount or more money on local
shops because it's much easier to stop and park and spend. and bike uh cause almost negligible wear and tear to the road infrastructure.
So given all these things already known to us uh it's and given that almost no um street in Charlottesville have a traffic caring for instance and that means I
would I would not feel safe to let my kids like bike alone in most of the Charlottesville street and given that it's like it sounds really kind of blame excuse that we
cannot spend more because we don't have project because in every street I I encounter on my route to work or on my route to drop off my kids like every single street
require more traffic coming more uh improvement in terms of bike infrastructure and pedestrian infrastructure of course the given that I really cannot reconcile that together. Like I see like literally every street
require more work and I know that this traffic infrastructure is very expensive like like one street making creating this traffic coming infrastructure require like 500k as as far as I know
and why there is so little budgeted for bike infrastructure. Yeah. Uh end of comments. Thank you. >> Thank you, WA. Appreciate that. Um, anyone else for public comment this evening?
>> Uh, and I'm seeing a comment in the chat. Uh, and I'm not sure who said it because I can't see the name. Uh, Josh Cart, I agree with all this, but maybe staff can talk about funding sources for traffic coming that don't come from bike infrastructure, the bike infrastructure line item in the CIP. And I think uh why
what you're referring to is the uh capital improvements project capital improvements project budget uh which is in active conversation right now. So it is absolutely the time to be talking about what what we would like to see in that budget. Uh via Chris.
>> Thanks Gwynavir. Um just a quick announcement that uh tomorrow is our our normal by um monthly uh pean uh mobility alliance meeting. Normally it's a hybrid meeting but because of the weather it's
entirely virtual. Um information about that meeting can be found at pecva.orgvents. I'll also put that in the chat. Thank you. So that's 9:00 virtual only mobility alliance. Thanks, Peter.
>> Can I just say something to Y Wise? Um, >> yes. Let's make sure we don't have any further public comment. Anyone else for public comment tonight? [laughter] >> Sickled out. >> I think it would be great if we didn't lock the door at 5:00 p.m. for a public
meeting and have to make a phone call to enter cuz what if you don't have a phone and you still want to be involved? >> Send your comments to the city manager's office. And there were two people that left the building who wouldn't let me in the door because they didn't know who I was. >> Maybe regular committee members can be
issued >> and I was like meeting and you're not supposed to. >> Well, your comment is not part of the permanent record. It's only going to be on YouTube. I'm sure city manager watches this. >> No. Accessibility is important for sure.
Um, all right. Uh, yes, Tommy. we can give you a minute to respond and then we're going to shift back to our agenda. >> I just really quick want to make sure that people understand that Y's comment specifically about bike infrastructure. This is the bike and pedestrian advisory committee. So there's millions of
dollars set aside towards sidewalk infrastructure. Just keep that in mind. But also keep in mind that there's also um a lot of money set aside already so for bike infrastructure and then we have not been able to uh spend that money. So there is money set aside currently ready
to go when projects are ready to be built and approved and all those fun things. So that's part of the reason why it it's not additional funds aren't being requested um in the CIP. Uh and uh there's a lot of funds um being set
aside for things like a concrete crew for public works so that we can build the necessary infrastructure. So, even if you don't see that in the line item, there's a lot of money going into these type of projects, even if it's not specifically on that line item.
>> Got it. Thank you, Tommy. Um, seeing Josh's comment that it sounds from Ben like we're going to spend down most of the bike infrastructure fund next year. Uh and point of clarification, this upcoming CIP that is under review
right now under discussion to be voted on by city council. >> How what is the funding period? >> Is it just FY27? >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Okay. [clears throat] So July 1. Correct. So it's not like a fiveyear plan.
>> Correct. >> Gosh. [clears throat] Yes. >> The CIP is a fiveyear plan. >> Okay. [clears throat] I'll I'll put a link in the chat when I find it, but CIPs are always five years here. >> Thank you for the clarification. That's important. Um and and let's uh let's
table this conversation. I think we can come back to it when we get to the work plan part of the agenda. Um all right, any final public comments? All right. Um this is more of just a heads up. Um but for our January meeting
um well first thing is that uh the first January the first Thursday of the month uh in January is January 1st. So we will not be meeting on the 1st. We'll be meeting on the 8th. So mark your calendars. I >> um yeah did you write that down somewhere?
>> Uh it was it was in last month's meeting and I'm going to update the calendar in uh invite as we as I speak. >> It was on the agenda also I think. Yeah.
Okay. Um so next month, January 8th, um the January meeting is also the what we call the annual meeting for BPAC. So it's um it's when we elect the new slate of officers. So if anyone is interested
in serving as secretary uh uh chair, vice chair slashcochairs, um those are the three officer positions for BPAC. So just bear that in mind. Uh if anyone would like to let that be known of their interests this evening, uh please do. Um if if it's something
you know and you want to share, um otherwise we'll talk about it in January. >> Okay. >> So the um weren't there other dates that you all were looking to modify as well? >> We we did those last month. >> So they're in the meeting notes that Meredith sent out today. So I can go
through and update the city's calendar for all those things. >> Yes. I think the only meeting where there was some question was the July meeting because I think it's like July 3rd or something is the first Thursday and it was unclear like I think often in
the July meeting we we cancel because it's so close to July 4th and so many people are out of town. Hey, >> hello. Welcome. [clears throat] >> And and okay, I'll go back and look at it. >> Let me know if you >> Yeah.
>> Um All right. So, uh last month we talked about the BPAC work plan. Um Tommy, is that something you can bring up on screen share? Oh, and I'm so sorry. I'm seeing Peter's comment here uh in the chat. Why's comments are valid. There is
only benefit in him making an articulate comment of that kind in writing to council with the council email address uh or via public comment. And yes, absolutely. Let's encourage everybody to flex their civic engagement muscles if you care [snorts] about infrastructure funding.
>> All right. What am I doing? >> Uh screen sharing the BAC work. I sent you a link. Yes, exactly. Um, so we talked last month about the BPAC work plan. Um, there's a couple of
hard copies. Maybe there's >> Yeah. Well, I think I printed one hard copy because the others are like the charter and >> um if anyone would like to peruse. >> Um, so we discussed this uh last month. We
took in some really good inputs from folks. Um, >> it's not it's not shared for us. >> Yeah, >> it's coming. It's coming. Tommy's working on it. Thank you, Zoe. Um, so what we'd like to do tonight is just we've we've woven in some of the some of
the feedback we heard. We'd like to revisit this as far as um thinking about like if if I were doing this over again, I would actually bucket this a little differently. I would be thinking about BPAC uh like the buckets
of activity for BPAC as advocacy advisory like advising staff and city leadership and other city committees um and education and outreach. And then I would put goals kind of under each of those buckets so that it feels very
clear kind of what the lanes are for BPAC um and then where everything kind of sorts out. Um, right now it feels a little uh ad hoc or like it feels a little disorganized. Um, so I'll just name that and I'm happy to go back and
kind of improve this work plan like to to to restructure it so it just feels a little bit more organized. Um, because I think we've got it and maybe this is just how my brain works, but it feels like we've got like some things are goals and some things are like uh
activities. And anyway, it's just like a little it's a little feels a little out of whack. Um, but and and I would also like us to think about like how do we want to be fleshing out each of these things so that it feels very clear recognizing that there are always things
to react to, like there's always just going to be stuff that no one could prepare for. Um, and I think the clearer we can all be at the outset about the things we want to advocate for, the things we want to um, you know, we'll always take we'll we'll always like be in sort of reactive mode when it comes
to requests from staff about how to weigh in like for example on things like the Veo agreement um, or uh, the city transportation plan. So things that BPAC has always done as an advisory body. Um but I think also wanting to be a little
bit more proactive about like what do we want to if we look back over the last 12 months what is what is it that we want to say we've accomplished. Um so kind of thinking about it in those terms recognizing we are not an organization. We don't have funding. You know we are not paid. This is all something that we
do um with the exception of staff kind of off the side the sides of our desks or bikes or whatever. Um, so you know, we want our goals to be right- sized for an all volunteer city committee. Um, and I think we want to be strategic. Part of
that is also making sure that we're working in deep coordination with advocacy efforts in the community like Mobility Alliance, like Liverpool Seville, like C3, um, who share a lot of the same goals um, as BPAC. And so, how
can we not just think of ourselves as like advising city staff and and and kind of working within city government only, but how can we also be a kind of part of a broader ecosystem of activities that's, you know, where we're all advocating for the same thing. We're
all kind of singing from the same song book. So, uh, part of that work is also just making sure that we are, you know, thankfully we have folks like Peter here. Oftentimes, Kevin Winchell from Community Bikes is here. um five um and others who uh who are who are coming to
VPAC as members of uh of their respective organizations. So we are already in coordination, but how can we make sure that we're like more deeply aligned? Um, so, um, Jen, I know you had suggested that we tend to some of the
bullets that don't feel kind of as well or or fully fleshed out um, as they could be. Um, and I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I just wanted to make sure we were um, addressing you what you shared with me and James over email. Um
>> yeah, I think we just want to get to a place or what you know what James was suggesting is like can we thread the needle so that we are getting them closer to to final without workshopping the whole rest of the meeting on them so that in
January at that annual meeting then we can really tie them up with a bow and so the s I think it's number three Tommy Fuel um Yeah. So, this had kind of the most questions to it. Um, and so I wondered if we should start with number
three and then get this a little more solid. Um, and maybe number five, outreach in the community. Now, unfortunately, they one is advisory and the other is enga education and outreach. So, they'd be under two different buckets in your
revision. But um I think particularly number three if we do want to go forward with that as part of the work plan is one that could be very powerful for BPAC to advise because it is uh it has a lot
of policy imple implement implications >> implications. Thank you. Um and it'd be nice if we were at the head of that discussion. So um throwing that out there. just kind of a reaction to what you
said. Um, this is a quantum leap for PAC. Um, we don't have to be perfect out of the gate. So, you know, let's reward ourselves, pat ourselves deeply on the back for getting this far, knowing that we can make some improvements, knowing
that a year from now, we will have learned how to really massage this stuff even more effectively and and more cleanly. But this is a big step and it's a great one. >> Thanks. Absolutely. I think Yeah, I think Herb is absolutely correct and I
think like none of this is even like possible to think about without the fact that y'all show up every month and you're willing to serve on subcommittees and you care about this stuff. Um so yeah, just thank you. Um I'm realizing too Jen with number
three part of what it's like this is both this is this is advisory this is also has policy implications as you're naming and a lot of I think what the questions are that are kind of embedded in here are actually things for the quick build
subcommittee to take on as the work of formalizing quick build process >> like okay >> so in some ways again as I'm like as I'm realizing kind of how like disorganized this work plan is um I think we could be we could just be adjusting this so it's
like no the the thing to do is formalizing the committee and for the process >> and then let's turn that over to the subcommittee >> over the coming year to to make that happen. So maybe that's like a cheat, but >> No, it's not a cheat unless unless it
isn't meant unless quick build is not meant to be in subcommittee. Then that's the only reason. >> Is it really something that deserves all of BPAC's attention or should it really live in a subcommittee? I I don't know. I don't know. >> I came to it through a subcommittee,
>> but that's how I entered BPAC was through subcommittee. So I I don't know how um >> anyone can be on a sub >> any subcommittee. So um [laughter] [clears throat] >> so I thought about quick bill at some
point and not from starting gate I think we got to be bringing this to council so that there is a sense of this is the way it goes this is this is the the the means by which uh the departments are expected to respond to it. Um this is the way that uh it's not just an
exercise. It's a an effective tool. >> Yes. >> Um I'm sorry. Let me just I just want me to sh What is the effective tool? Um >> the quick build. >> Okay. Got it. Got it. Okay. >> Yeah. and and like formalizing, you
know, like um there were quick builds put down near where I live on the slip lane around like Machella Avenue turning on to Carlton. Like those flex posts got eliminated within like weeks, you know. So it's like, well, what does that mean? You know, like maybe a quick doesn't
belong here. Maybe they're, you know, like maybe the whole intersection needs to get redesigned. I don't know, you know, but like >> there are different scenarios where it's like what do we do in these different scenarios? what are they telling us and what's the kind of the feedback mechanism to ensure that like you know
and we've had I've had outside conversations about this too where it's like what kind of data do we need to collect or do we need to collect any data at all cuz it's just common sense like you shorten the side the crosswalk and you make it harder for vehicles to make a turn going quickly like you've
just made the thing safer you've made the intersection safer um yes we could collect data on that but it it just makes sense so Then what is the process by which we turn those flex posts and paint into concrete curving. Um
so lots of things to flesh out. Um as we think about it >> so that next step like I just want I want to make sure you don't yada yada yada that next step is that like a big >> jump. >> Well yeah because where this came from was because the city launched Quick Builds without a plan. So really they
should have done this work, right? The city department for quick builds, whatever that whoever that lives under should process >> should have had a process and a strategy and a plan and they did it. They just started putting down which was awesome but also now we're like crap we need a plan and we'll help you make the plan. That's essentially what we're
saying is that we're going to be here to advise you as the experts in making this plan um and the strategy moving forward which includes tracking and then assessment and evaluation >> and prioritization >> and prioritization. >> But I guess that what I'm thinking is
just want to make sure we're all clear there's going to be a level of like prioritization that like lives outside of BPAC. >> Yes. like engineering are going to have to figure out is this an actual I mean Kyle knows this very well all the projects he's got turned from paint
plastic to concrete some of them are not feasible because of drainage yada yada yada but like that's not something that we're BPAC's going to figure out but like maybe public engineering can come and do a report and say why there are issues with this one turning into concrete but you need to bake that into
your plan some capacity >> and have a reporting mechanism so we can know that >> to that point that prioritization is good feedback for us internally, >> right? >> To see, >> yeah, it's good for everybody, >> right? >> And like we'll take that and then it's like we can, you know, go at it with a
red pen and be like this is a huge huge like streetcape plan, not just one little. Well, FYI, just we're going to learn more about this in the coming months, but Oay's um new platform that she spoke to us like 6 months ago about, I think, is
going to be helpful and and like the quick build page can have a lot more ability to like engage with the public on that type of stuff. >> And I think also we're here for elevating the blind spots that tend to come with Oh, there's You have a chat
thingy. Yeah, there >> that tend to come with this which is and don't forget to tell the public. >> Yes. Yes. And and I think like >> and don't let any emails could be saved, right? If we just had a tracker like the county has a tracker for all their projects or even a spreadsheet where
it's just a you know there's just a like status column and we can say like you know denied hardening because of drainage like you know just just a way to save uh those of us who who track these things a lot of time.
>> Yeah. I got a peak behind Oay's platform a little bit this week and I have a training for it next week. >> Awesome. It like right away jumped out at me as like public works transportation project spreadsheet needs a lit this be the first case study for
this new platform like for sure. So >> that's a work plan for >> um awesome. Well that's yeah that's important. I know there's people on the call who care about that. >> There there is a comment here um that uh
Josh just shared the current draft. Um, I'll just say yes, it's a 5-year plan. This doesn't necessarily stop anyone from the public or BPAC going to council and saying, "Yeah, you've got your fiveyear plan, but like why don't you put some money aside for this project or
what?" You know what I mean? So, the budget's an evolving thing each year, even though there's a 5year CIP. >> And now is the time to be asking for what we want in that CIP budget, not the done deal. Um
I mean all right so back to our um I think I would like to reorganize this um and present it again in January to vote on um if I'm not hearing like a whole lot of I mean everyone has access
to this document and everyone can put drop their comments in can quibble with anything that's here or make it better. Um, but I think I think the goal would be like let's start 2026 with a clear understanding. Let's get our subcommittees sorted. Um, and a clear
understanding of, you know, what what it is we're working on, what are the what are defects goals when we look back over 2026, what do we want to say we did? Um, and then let's get to work. >> Does it sound good? and to the extent
possible word things in in measurable terms. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I Yeah. I'll I'll throw a comment in there that just says I think it is a good thing to point it to a subcommittee to tackle >> unless we decide it's such a big thing
that you know to the BPAC legacy that it has to be a whole group thing. Well, and I think the subcommittee is also like reporting activity pack and saying go through what we you know what do you think and how can you improve this draft build process that we've developed. Um
um but my another question maybe this is actually a better question for the subcommittee but is also um like if feedback goes to the trouble of doing all of this and maybe this is what you're getting at Herb with like let's get city council involved is like who's to say that public works and engineering
have to do what we say they should do with white belts like how does it go from like our good thought and care and development of a process into actual like policy implementation. >> That was really my point. If if there's
a council approved process, then it doesn't come from a small group of citizens. It comes from council saying as long as it follows in this fashion, then it it rules the interdep departmental push backs.
>> Yeah. And maybe it means like I think that me and someone else have to say to Sam, make this happen. I don't know. I'm still learning. I'm still learning. I don't start. >> I would I would just say realistically
to answer your question, it happens in a couple different ways. Some of them are more formal than others. >> Yeah. >> Uh, >> so BPAC can think
strategically on how to do that. You could also think about how to work with council on how to formalize that process. You know, there might be some benefit from across the board city looking at how to formalize these type of things
from the ground up. >> Yeah, let me I actually want to I want to ask that question. I'm going to ask a question. So glad you're here. Sam seems like why is Jen asking so? Um [laughter] I I I've also I I'm struggling with that
type of answer as well. Right. So internally >> on our side NDS we've got some good ideas >> and we struggle also with how to implement them. >> Right. So I think
I think we are going to hopefully work well as a team even if we don't only see it eye to eye on like how we can like you know build consensus and and show that the city's working well within
community so therefore these things should happen. Um but but yeah we don't we don't have >> um sometimes the decision-m power um over here on this side. of city hall. >> Hey, this is Peter. I'd like to just add
one thing, which is as as the city's developing its um transportation plan, there should be a whole section about procedures. That's one of the things that is really good about the city's park master plan is it it doesn't only
look at like in fact it probably doesn't look enough at like what our actual parks need park by park but it does talk about like what what's holding the parks department back and this this is like
the transportation version of that. >> Nice. I like that idea. I'm adding it as a sub bullet under the transportation master plan. >> Thanks, Peter. Are we saying that we need a written
uh sorry that we need that procedure all written down or a written resource for those procedures or that one exists and that we want to um benefit >> it does not exist. It's not written
anywhere. Um, other communities, like I've seen the one for Milwaukee, >> um, they have a quick build and and like any resident, there's a process by which you can request a quick build in your neighborhood. Um, so I think that's what
we want this committee to figure out is like how do we look how do we um assess the locations of Quickfield? Um, how do we kind of formally recommend those locations to city staff? Um, how do we ensure that the quick builds are are
either like working? How do we assess if they're working or not? How do we prioritize or assess which ones should be turned into hardened infrastructure? Um, and then prioritize cuz you know we need the hardened infrastructure everywhere and you know how do we decide
like which projects come first. Um, so that kind of thing and it really is like gonna require the input and buyin from multiple city departments. It's not just a bike ped >> and the neighborhood >> because if the neighborhood isn't there
from the outset, we can be moving the train down the tracks and and notice that the track just got disconnected because the neighborhood really didn't what didn't buy into our solution. >> Yeah. So, >> and one piece of that is, you know, we heard from Brendon and Caleb last month,
um, getting feedback kind of working with them to collect feedback on the quick bolds that have gone down so far. Um, with the exception of, you know, some strife around the Oakley Delmare intersection. I've not heard a lot of like people being up in arms about quick
builds. >> Belmont Avenue. Is that a quick build though or is that like a state? >> It's not part of the urgent transportation funds but it is a quick build. It's using quick build >> materials. >> Yeah, it's an example of a quick build
type project that had a lot of neighborhood feedback and involvement. >> Yes. >> Yes. I think one major change though is that it was a quick build that also
involved taking a formerly two-way street and turning it into a one-way street which I don't know that any other quick build has done that and do you think like is that what's your sense of like what do people not like about that project? >> Oh my gosh. I mean that's that's a list.
I mean that's we could have a whole meeting about that but um I mean to kind of run with one point that you just made and not really answer your question like maybe there is some kind of
definition to quick build you know or it's like are we changing the whole traffic pattern you know is that does that still fall under the purview of a quick build >> right so like where are the guardrails >> and I think of a Quick build has to involve like a lot of public engagement
and like a long process and lots of staffing then I think maybe it's not a quick build even if it kind of technically is quick materials. >> Well maybe that maybe that so what I was thinking though was just now is >> I hopefully we get to a point where we
this is just a program we have it defined and we do a good job of communicating it to our citizens so they are not shocked by what this plastic thing is all about. And that kind of goes back to what Sy was working on is like these like this like handout of
sorts, right? Like this um like what what is a bump out? Like defining like what these these terms mean for our public to better understand. So that like there isn't necessarily this big lift every time a one project goes in
because it has become not routine per se but like we've we've raised our citizens knowledge about this program. >> Yeah. Falls in the education bucket >> right of activity. >> There are a couple
oh I'm sorry um sorry for finish >> there are two kinds of push backs a neighborhood might provide. One is that we don't exactly like or we love the approach that you're taking. The other one is that's a great idea, but but but this other project's much more important to us that could be a quick vote.
>> So, it's both of those kind of things that we needed to build into taking into account. >> Yeah, feedback is is >> and and there real quick there was a couple other push backs on some of the projects. Um, some of those some some of it was like I
don't love the actual execution or design, but I'm I'll I'm fine with like it existing. I would prefer [clears throat] if it was done differently. It wasn't taken as harshly as Oak Leaf or Green Leaf, but >> but and then and then the actual design
itself probably should have been differently. Um, technically um >> that was a tough one. Well, it would be remarkable if we came up with a political initiative that that had 100% support. Right. So, the fact that there is push back is Yes. expected. >> Right. Exactly. And it doesn't mean we
stop what we're doing. Um Y shares uh things like daylighting can be a simple criterion that can be mechanically applied to everywhere without manually specifying locations. I may be wrong, but lots of quick builds can be like that. If we have X, it means we can
quick build Y. So like yeah there's like character if you meet a certain set of criteria and characteristics then bam you get your quick build uh rather than manually identifying them >> that goes back to Jen's matrix which look
>> which I'll I'll say can be a thing and I think you all should consider doing it. Um there still need to be a level of like nuance and understanding about each neighborhoods differently. think the people who live in those neighborhoods react differently to different things. yada yada yada. So,
>> yes, um we are a little over time on our uh on our uh work plan conversation. So, expect more from me over December. And um maybe if you don't mind doing a
little reading over the holidays to see where I've how I've shifted our our work plan proposal uh before our January meeting, that'd be awesome. But we'll we'll send that out. Um sending it over to Tommy to talk about Beo. I thought there was going to be like a I don't
know. I guess Beo got put in the agenda a little late, but um that's going to be a lot of like pitchforks. >> [laughter] >> Um, so, uh, I sent around or Gwyneov or James sent the staff updates as well as
the VO permit, um, with VO or the doctor's mobility permit with VO that was signed just over a month ago. As part of that plan or that permit, they are required to give us essentially three plans and a template. Um, each one
of those was an attachment in that email. So, how I'm after I kind of maybe present some of these things to everybody. Uh I think in my opinion what would be helpful uh is if everyone had a month to look over these plans and then
on January I can collect feedback from BPAC and then I can make recommendations to the just as a heads up they turned in some of these plants a couple weeks ago I asked them to go back to the drawing
board. So what you're seeing here is a significant step up from what they had originally um presented. Um, >> so J. [laughter] >> Um, so
let's start maybe. So there's so there's the um there's the staffing plan and you know a lot of this for for folks who aren't in the day-to-day may not mean much. Um but the most important thing about this staffing plan is
actually going to be for me uh which is going to be part of the reporting the monthly reporting um template. So meaning every month I'm going to be able to see how many people they plan on staffing the times um of their shifts um
and then I'll be able to see the previous months like what actually happened. Um, that's been very difficult from our city staff's pers as p perspective to fully get a good answer on how many technicians they actually have physically rebalancing, moving and
reporting to violations. Um, so yes, so again, they are on the this is technically a three-year permit. Uh there are many opportunities for us to like cancel and tell them to like close
shop and get out of town um quickly if needs be. Uh this is we really worked hard on baking in a levels of accountability towards VIA or any other permit vendor in our city. Um these four plans were set up so that we can really
dive into these these four specific things um and have input from like BPAC and others. um to help us further hold them accountable while also having good program and system in place. Um
so before I move on to the other two kind of plans which is the marketing community engagement and the um parking operations plan, is there are there questions uh either online or here in the room
about the permit or anything else? Is this um who makes the final decision on the plan how it gets approved? >> The city manager or their designine will approve the um the plan and they have 6
months to get approval and if they don't if it's not approved within 6 months then the permit is canceled. >> Okay. And if if they weren't doing a good job in those first six months, they can permit can also be cancelled. So it's not, you know,
all all things are true. All right. [clears throat] >> How much do we know like how much more they're investing in this market? >> Investing >> like in >> in staff like um >> comparatively like how much? >> Um I that's a good question. Um, I'm
probably not going to get the straight answer to be perfectly straight from them. Like, they're not going to tell me like, well, we have these pending texts in the Columbus market. Um, >> and I'll I have ways around that. I'll mention here in a second. But, um, I will just say they since June of this
year, they have significantly increased staff. Now, the problem is staff come and go for a variety of reasons, but compared to where we were last year, it's like night and day. There were some days last year where I don't think they had people working um for a variety of
reasons. >> Um but there is a significant increase in um overall staff operations and and we typically meet with them on a bi-weekly schedule. It's not been a good plat like way to meet. we meet for 15
minutes. I don't have anything in front of me that to review like I don't I don't have questions. So that's why I I I I I'm forcing them to come up with a monthly template that they give me days before a meeting. I can review it. I can come with questions. I can why was this
shift empty or why' you have two people or whatever you know it was. I can come prepared to those meetings and and we can make these um these reports available to BPAC as well as part of the staff report. >> Do we have access to customer complaints
or like issues flagged or anything? Do you have access to that or >> like what are the complaints? >> Yeah, >> they are supposed to as part of their monthly report identify the number of fines and pilings issued issue includes violations by level and number of writer accounts deactivated due to escalating
violation levels. number and nature of complaints reported through VO's customer service portals. >> Okay. And comp like there are complaints and there they have a couple of different reporting like >> options. Are they and it's one of them is easier to fill out than the other and
it's not quite a complaint. Do we have access the last time we use it at least? >> Do we have access to all of the reports? >> No. Well, I can get I mean they're they're they need to provide on request anything that I yeah I request. So if I
have something I want to um I want specifically they they'll have to provide it. Um there is their there is their online 247 customer service portal and then there's the my bill that people are reporting and that they promote
people to report. I have access to all that stuff and those are the ones that V now gets at this real time as I do. So they'll see complaints and reports at the same time. >> Okay.
>> And they send some a person out to fix those in real time. Is that the implication? >> Correct. That's why I'll get the report the basically the report comes to me. I am the um owner of that that complaint in my seville and then I
just set up an email rule that for automatically forwards that um complaint to VO so they get it as soon as I get it and then basically what happens and within the next couple hours I'll get an email from the um general manager saying
that that's been taken care of. the the the the downside to that system is I I don't get a report from the actual tech who moved it. So like it might seem like the thing was moved six hours later when in fact it was moved within 45 minutes or an hour and a half or whatever if
that makes sense. Um, which is why we baked into the permits um the need for them to provide, let me make sure I the wording accurate on here. They must
provide an online platform accessible by desktop that allows city staff to see the live locations of all devices. This online resource should provide a map and locations and unique identifiers for each device as well as an indication of
how long a device has been at a location and its current battery charge status. The third thing um battery whatever the most important thing for me is I want to know how long a device has been idle. >> Yeah, >> they can they they used the permit used
to say they can have up to 5 days. Um, so like ideally you park it out in that hub and it doesn't move for five days fine. The problem we're seeing is they park it anywhere and everywhere and they don't know that yeah it it might be parked fine but in reality it's blocking the sidewalk. So we bumped it to 3 days.
So it used to be 5 days now it's 3 days. Um I would love to get to a point where in other municipalities it's like every day >> unless it's in a designated spot. So there's I I I've started coming through um these plans and adding my own
notes. Um to some degree, I don't necessarily want to say what I'm thinking. I'd love to kind of maybe hear your thoughts before I just interject my thoughts into making your thoughts. >> Um I had some notes.
>> Yeah. >> On parking in particular. Um, I think there should be on the bikes there is a whole long list of like reminders on the bike. >> Mhm. >> Don't ride on sidewalks. Wear a helmet.
>> There's nothing about parking on sidewalks and that you should not do it >> because it's legal. You can park on sidewalks as long as it's not blocking >> blocking a do not block a sidewalk, right? But like if someone's doing it, then they're just an who's doing
that. Like [clears throat] that's >> Well, not necessarily. >> I think there are people who are clueless. >> There are people who definitely We've been on neighborhood walks with UVA students specifically and watching me move a ve and they're like asking me why I'm doing that. They're nice people. They're coming to like a neighborhood
walk. They just do not they just it did not strike them. They didn't understand. They're undergrads. They see these things everywhere. They didn't they don't understand. The biggest the biggest issue I saw from day one is VO does not have a way to comm to to do does not have a great way to communicate
to its user group and that hasn't changed, right? >> They aren't going to change. You can sign up with a cell phone. They're going to give you a couple notifications here and there. They don't have like a newsletter and a captive audience listening to every word they say. >> Well, and most people wouldn't opt out
of that. [laughter] >> Correct. >> Okay. So my next note um like just like make it very hard for people to not understand. And I would actually take issue with the that you I mean yes I get some sidewalks are very wide. There's plenty of space. There are even biker in
some sidewalks. But I also am kind of like, well, if you just have a blanket no parking on a sidewalk rule because the rule as it's written in the permit right now is like there's something about like 36 in and it must
be like and I'm like no one is no that's too complicated. Just have a blanket rule. >> No hard sidewalks. >> I'm going to wait to make any my comments. how it looks. Feel free to write it down and or simple interaction with your notes or if you rather go through them.
>> Go for it. >> Um, are you saying like uh that it wouldn't be possible to park it and like it would be a block the same way they have for lime scooter, some of the other scooters that you have in other cities that you actually it'll just keep running up your time.
>> I mean, that would be that's fine. That would be ideal. >> I would also think that like I do think I think the I think a $5 fine and a $10 fine are just like woefully insignificant. No one cares. >> It just is going to drain your account
if you don't park your property. That's what I think you just need something that's like a little bit more like maybe a $30 fine or $50 fine would be I don't know like let's start >> except for a lot of the people using this are kids. A lot of people using this are kids and they are kids who will
not have $30 to spend on that. >> I don't mean I don't believe in fines, but I just mean like you can only park it in a like in a zone that is zone for parking. >> And if you don't, the meter keeps running. >> Yeah, basically. And you it'll keep running until you park it properly.
>> So, let me let me just give you um heads up on a couple things. Number one, at UVA on grounds, they have required parking zones. So, you have to park in those zones. The problem [clears throat] with that is the GPS is not totally accurate. So it
might say that you're in a zone when you're really not in the zone. Um but a lot of a lot of students and you can ask um Peter who or Patrick who comes to these meetings from UVA uh will just don't care and they'll just and it'll just keep running and their their daddy
or mommy is paying for it. So there's those kids that you're talking about and there's these other kids who don't care about it. >> Yeah. So yes, it's that is important. And maybe for the veil access program, we have a different set of rules. Um also, >> um
>> and and the kids that Jyn's referring to um are like I'm assuming under 18 that legally aren't allowed to use these same, >> but but >> sorry, that's who I'm talking about. >> But I mean that's fine. Like I mean it's not fine. Like it's it's going to
happen, right? Um, I'm just I'm just seeing what the reality of the the is the program is, right? And and so it's probably their parents who are they're using their parents account, right? >> Um, >> so anyone else, but I want to let
>> Paul's hand up for a long time. >> Oh, I'm so sorry, Paul. Please go ahead. >> There's also some comments in chat. >> I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That just took me a second and my camera's not working so I apologize as well on that. I'm I'm here pretty much um received issues
about the parking and the parking really has me concerned how I see it written. It gives the 36 in and the 36 in I know they're going off a standard. They're going off the old ADAG standard under the Americans with Disabilities Act, but the city uses PROAG. The
Commonwealth of Virginia uses ProAG. ProAg has been adopted by the Department of Transportation, and I'm sorry to give a history on this, but 36 in is not a good standard whatsoever. It gives zero room for error. And so, as soon as we somebody parks a scooter there, if it
goes into the rightway just a little off, you're creating an ADA issue for the city of Charlottesville and we're violating access for people with disabilities. And that's a civil rights issue. and you not allowing somebody to
pass or have room to move if you're parking that scooter there really can cause a lot of issues and it can cause federal lawsuits for the city. U most places I've researched on since I've looked at this since I received the issue today go to 48 to 60 in of
clearance >> because it gives real world accessibility. You don't you want people to be able to move and especially your people that have disabilities. um policy doesn't even put in there about curb ramps. It doesn't address them whatsoever from what I've seen.
Um so I have a lot of issues with it and I think we your committee should really work on this because you're baking in ADA problems and you're creating civil rights issues if you leave that policy in there like it is.
>> Yeah. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. So, I said I wasn't going to write what say what my comments are. The thing that I'm leaning towards and you guys can think this over is no parking
on any sidewalk unless designated. >> Yes. >> So, it could be designated physically with a sign like an orange hub or an actual sign or it could be designated virtually on the app. Mhm. >> So if it's designated virtual on the app, you'll see that and we can bake in
some other things in here in terms of but um it would be hard to communicate anything to the user about 48 in 36 in 60 in or whatever it might be. Other cities definitely do all this stuff
differently. Um some are more successful than others. Some of them have an active program, some of them don't. Um, but after looking at everything, this to me from a communication standpoint seems to be the simplest is the best. Um, but
I'm happy to hear other thoughts. You guys, you guys are good at communication and and so if there's some other elements here that I should be thinking of, um, please let me know. >> One thing I would really hate to see if we were going to do like block, you know, like the zones where you're not
allowed to park. I really it's really shitty when you're trying to like if you're somewhere that there's just this huge area that's like historical district and you're not allowed to park anything anywhere and you like in DC for example, you can't park anywhere near the train station and it's really hard
to figure out where you can park one of these things and you're trying to catch a train and then you're like, you know, you're just trying to find like a a correct zone to park. And so things like that are terrible barriers that cost money and they're not clear before you start out on your journey. You don't you may not
have known this before you left because there's no integration of say Google Maps with the parking. So I wonder if there's something where there could there be a feature in Beo where you just like quickly put in where you're going and it'll show you it's a blackout.
>> Yeah. Uh where things are blacked out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There. And you can also put in your address and like it'll give you turn turn byturn directions to where you want to go. >> It used to be. Yeah. Uh I will say the thing that you you just said that also I
wanted to say does would BPAC like to see like a planned map of all these virtual and physical locations. >> Yeah, let's do that. >> But I think less even less so than the instructions. You're like I need to know where I'm parking this thing when I get
there. >> Kind of. Yeah. Like I need to know that when I get there, like I want to do the right thing and park it correctly, but I'm also trying to get to a place like where the hell is the parking? It's not integrated. I can't use Google Maps in the in the app and I'm trying to cross
reference while also trying to sprint for a train ultimately. >> Yeah. Um that was I had a similar thought where I was like can't like either by geo location or because you're in their app like can can video just
tell you like oh there is a safe and legal parking spot like 30 feet ahead on the left like because it knows where you are. I mean to a certain degree. Um so some kind of alert that's like your nearest legal parking spot is
>> How does Doc Mobility do it? How does like city bike do it? How do you know? >> You see it on the app. Like you see it in the map. You're like that's okay. My nearest thing is like three blocks away. So I got it. >> But are those actual physical docs? >> They are physical docs. >> Yeah. >> But if you have physical I mean this is
where you would need the map. You'd need the docless mobility hub. What does Natalie want to call them? She wants to rename them orange. >> She just wants to replace them with >> So, but we'll call the Docless Mobility Hub, the orange blocks, >> those are all located like safe and
legal parking is somehow identified even if it's not in a hub. Um, >> well, you can't call it a DAP because it's not charging the bike. >> I mean, I want to be like reasonable with the expectations. It's not this is not a very sophisticated
app or service that we're talking about. So, you know, I'm like I'm not trying to assume that the GPS will be so precise as to allow for, you know, that level of detail being like you're in you're in the rightway, get out of the rightway or
else you're not allowed park. cuz I don't think that that actually I don't think it I mean even with services >> it's like they have an easy out of being like oh well the GPS is only so good >> well it depends on what you're expecting the GPS to do right the GPS can't tell
the difference between a >> scooter on the sidewalk and a scooter in the grass next to the sidewalk >> but it can tell if you're within 30 feet of the mobility dockless mobility station. >> Yeah. Like I think saying that or or like if there are ways to identify on
the map like it's not yet it's not maybe yet a dockless mobility hub but it's still like a safe and legal place to park where those can can just be identified on the map and there can be an alert as you're ending your ride. >> Well under the current system isn't the grass next to the sidewalk a safe and
legal place to park. Yeah. Yeah. So, it wouldn't be able to tell the difference between that, >> but it could identify. It could just say like the grass over here is safe and legal. I I don't know. I'm just like, is there a way to use the technology here that can be helpful to help like help
people know like, oh, my app just told me where to park this bike. I don't have to leave it on the side. I don't know. So, I mean, the thing that they were pushing for this past year is this AI parking tool that fizzled out and I hadn't heard anything in a while about
it until I saw in this plan um this week that it's there's some AI tool about helmet usage. Now, >> um that's new to me. I haven't heard that before, but they were trying to double down on when you park your your device, you have to take a picture and
the AI would be able to tell if that was a legal place to park your scooter or your your device and I can't remember what it Well, there were some issues. Let's just say that uh with and I'll tell you guys later because it's kind of funny.
>> Um >> and sorry, I'm realizing it's also fixed that we're eating into our um staff updates. Um >> so so I will ask BPAC um I will ask via um questions about
map and um integration. [clears throat] Okay. All right. >> And I I'm I would fully and 100% get on board with the no parking on sidewalks unless there is a fine designated area
>> or virtual is designated virtually designated. Yes. a designated legal place to park. And I think those should be signs, right? Like, can we just make it really hard for people to park badly?
>> No, cuz you've got under 18s running. [laughter] >> That's a different problem. >> Ridden a bike or driven a car lately? >> Science, right? >> Josh had a comment. Uh Josh says, "Turn car parking spaces into scooter parking
at every street." Heck yeah. Um and I there was a previous comment from Josh Carb about with an update from Rory Stolenberg that CIP funding is binding in the first year, but the following four years are a plan that can be
changed. And I think Sam's position is that he'll support adding more money in future years if staff bring him more projects. All right, let's ask staff to bring in more projects. Okay. Um,
staff updates, questions for staff. >> I have a question for staff. >> Yeah. >> Which is very related to a conversation we had earlier about a written procedure for quick builds. Is there a written procedure for infrastructure projects that aren't quick builds, like normal
infrastructure projects? And where do I find that? Wow. >> Will you um >> see it? >> Oh, it's a very broad question and I apologize for that. I've been coming to these new pack meetings for, you know, a
couple months now and I've been trying to get a feel for how the whole process works before I start trying to make moves, right? How does an idea or how does something go from an idea in someone's head, >> whether that's a city person or a
citizen to a plan that gets approved and then from a plan that gets approved to a thing that exists in the real world. >> What are the the players? I suspect there are many >> possible routes that that path can take, right? through different agencies,
different people, different funding, money, power players, >> so >> contractors. It's a really broad question and I hope that I'm not asking you to lay it all out yourself, which is why I'm phrasing it. Is there a written procedure somewhere that could tell me
these things? I mean um there might be an SOP somewhere on on that will probably touch on some of this but you know what I'm hearing is the ideas coming from the ground and bubbling up to the top because there's
also the the reverse right there is the ideas from the public that come to city manager and then they come to staff and say how do we make this happen? >> Yeah. So, um um I would say and I'm gonna let Kyle because he has more experience in city hall um and seen different
administrations and how they do things. You know, there's a lot of new staff here. Uh I'm one of them since co uh to some degree I think we are all learning
on how to create those processes. Um, and [clears throat] so I haven't seen anything specifically written down and since I've been here, I've seen that process change a couple times. Um, and not to say it doesn't work hasn't
worked well. I'm just saying it's and it it's I mean to some degree Ben has tried to create the written processes um so that we can be a little bit more efficient. >> Did you have something ty? I mean I can
add to that a little bit which is I'll just say there isn't a written process. There is not one. Um I mean the closest thing to a written process and I have to preface this with when you say idea
uh of you know installing something or infrastructure or a project or something like that like that like the the the reason for the idea actually kind of matters. Um it's like where where did that come from? Is it from like some
tragic event like a traffic fatality? Is it >> you know is it because of some public feedback around development and concern for traffic congestion? Um, so there's a lot of weight and a lot of nuance and
and complexity in, you know, where that comes from. And just like you said, where that comes from dictate the avenue that it takes. Like who who interfaces with that feedback or idea or problem first? Is it planning? Is it city
manager's office? If it's a city manager's office, then it takes the route of coming from the city manager's office and council and then then coming to the staff and saying, "We have this problem. You guys need to come up with some ideas on how to fix this."
>> Um, so that's one avenue. Um, and then the other avenue is kind of bubbling up from the bottom, which is what Tommy's talking about, which is like, okay, this neighborhood or these people are going to lobby for this, you know, we have this problem or
Tommy's neighborhood walks or something like that. Um, or getting involved in I know it hasn't been, they're still trying to figure kind of a dead endless thing. Um, but the closest thing to any kind of procedure
really is, and this is not a good answer, really is like in some kind of strategic plan. >> Mh. >> Um, or like a master plan. So, you know, like like a good example of something
coming going from idea to actually built using a master plan is the skate park >> because there was they were redoing the master plan for McIntyre and the skateboarding community. They put a person at every meeting
and they lobbyed hard for it. Not that that's a procedure. Not that that should should have to be required, but they successfully got the skate park into the master plan and then the
funding and the grants of the grants and the funding of all >> and it was executed. So that's just I mean I think that like putting putting some lobbying for something to be in a plan is probably the most official way
that there is a procedure. >> Yeah, it depends on not the only way to do it. It's not like I'm not trying to say like yeah just go get it in if you got an idea. Like there's many other ways, but as far as >> any kind of official way, that's probably the closest thing to an
official way is to kind of get something into a plan. But certainly not the only way. >> Uhhuh. >> And it is just there's a, you know, I've been doing a lot of research on this recently about skate park and some other things, especially about Michael Tire
Park. And it depends on what we're talking about, right? Cuz you just look at a bike pit master plan and there's a recommendation in terms of sidewalks. Some of that was taken as a like action item. This is your list. Go and build. And some of that happened and some of it
didn't. And then we're still using the same list 10 years later. And we've rep prioritized it to some extent and added some to it. Um but our director in this department is um pushing for work plans
for each project. um that anyone does under NDS. Um Kyle and I both have several that we're working on. Um but none of this I don't know that any of this really answers the questions that you're you're asking about. So,
>> and there is Tommy >> process about >> Well, I was just going to ask a followup of what kind of infrastructure you're curious about because >> it could I'm talking about transportation roads, >> right? Are you talking about between the
curbs? Are you talking about the sidewalks? Are you talking within about within city right away? Are you talking about county jurisdiction as well? >> I would like to learn about all of that. Well, I mean that's >> maybe we need >> keep coming [laughter] to pack. I mean because like I s I don't
know if you put in the staff notes, I put a little update in there about the NO tech committee because a lot of decisions get made on the NO tech committee to Zoe's point. >> That's something I'm running up against. So I hear a lot of acronyms and first names >> and those aren't things that I can
search online >> 100%. >> Yeah. >> So this Yeah. So the >> dragon dragon >> agreek >> I mean I think right now I mean >> the thing that you're running into given the system that we work within right now which is not very organized with how you
know the process but basically what you need to know is the who's the right person to complain to. >> Yeah. >> You know and like I mean I'm just I'm saying that that's the kind of shitty system we have now. >> That's kind of how it works.
So before we run out of time, almost a year ago, I reported that a plastic thing got put in the road at home, >> making it impossible to safely cross the road as a pedestrian on a bicycle.
>> Um, brought that up again last month. I'll bring it up again tonight and next month. And nothing is is happening. There's a slip lane now that's protected by this plastic spiked thing that separates that slip lane from the rest of traffic. The slip lane operates all
the time. So, it's impossible to safely cross either High Street or Long Street. The only way I can get across is putting my bike in traffic at a very busy intersection. >> Can you under the bridge? >> Yeah.
>> Not there. No. >> Because No. If I if I'm trying to get to free bridge lane. >> Yeah. >> If I'm trying to cross over >> and then you go you take >> there's a path that steps >> but so you can go two ways. You can stay
on the on the eastbound side of of 250 and cross on the sidewalk >> and then go around and it's all you got bike access all the way down on to connect under the bridge. >> I'm coming up the river trail. >> Yep. >> I want to cross over with the river.
That's right. [clears throat] You stay on You do not cross 250. You do not ever do that. You You go on the sidewalk or you go under the bridge. Like it is some of our best grades operated. For sure. >> I go under the bridge all the time. I can't get over the free bridge.
>> Yes, you can. You stay on the sidewalk and then you go around and under the bridge. >> I think you're thinking on one side. She's think you can do it on both sides. That would be awesome. >> Yeah, I think you can do it on both sides. I was trying.
I have explored this lots of times. >> I've done it many times. You can totally do it. You do not have to cross. That is like taking your life. You guys like don't >> Yeah. And her we I've talked to public works. They really like that flex post. It's It reduces costs. It they're they're not really interested in
changing their flex post. Um they really like that anchored system cuz when when one gets knocked out, they just have to go. It's easy fix to pop a new one in and it doesn't require all this rigomearroll, >> you know, >> but this isn't individual post. This is
one apparatus. >> That's what they like about it is that like if the post gets knocked out, the a base is still there and they just have to put one more in and keep it moving. It reduced cost, time, all that stuff. So public afterwards for about the wrap
cuz you don't have to cross 250 and and and like >> I do it all the time. I live right there. Um, and we should do a Saturday morning so we just all do it together. >> And we need signage, like signage everywhere on all of our shared use paths because I think bikers also don't understand that they can be on those
paths. They're not just for walkers. >> Um, >> this is something that's kind of internally recently. It's just like how do we >> what's the way finding there? Like you're you're a person who rides a bike. Like you do this and >> you haven't figured it out. Yes. Right.
Like >> Yeah. You've lived here for a while. You're not >> Peter Krebs and I did meet with a company um this this week and I've met them a couple times called >> Bike Streets Street Bikes. Anyway, look them up. It's kind they're doing some really cool stuff on on digital way
finding. >> Um it is 624. So we want to keep us um on the internet because it is almost time to wrap. Um any other final questions for Tommy? Questions for staff? And I'm seeing that Josh is is
acknowledging uh Josh Brown is acknowledging uh your >> your pain. Her intersection is terrible. I know all the ways I live north of 200 250 and it sucks. Um >> there's also some good things by the way. A nice shared use path that takes you up there. So
>> yeah. Yeah. Um announcements other business neighborhood walk. >> Yeah. December 14th, 1 p.m. >> Be there. Be square. >> Mobility Eagle Alliance meeting tomorrow morning, 9:00 a.m. on Zoom.
>> Uh, agenda items for the next VPAC meeting. >> Agenda items. >> Officer elections. We're going to finalize the charter and the work plan. I realize we did not we did not finalize the charter tonight. That was the other thing we're supposed to do. Um, but I think we can get to it really quickly. >> And like can we spend like 50 more
minutes on the VO stuff just in case like I everything? Um, I cannot spend 15 minutes on the BS stuff, but if anyone would like to spend 15 minutes on the BF Oh, next. Oh, oh, oh, I'm sorry. >> Yeah, >> we have conversation about the operating
budget and the capital budget next meeting. >> The proposed budget that is moving forward, things that we want to be sure to support as voting citizens to stand behind what the city staff are proposing. And we need to get the
schedule of like public input sessions on the CIP budget because I think we I think we can talk about it here. I think we can also be directing people to go attend those sessions. Um and also always send your public comment to city council directly.
Any other business? [snorts] Uh let me try to get to the land. Um, >> so go to food line. >> I know. Go to food line on the trail. >> Yeah, you a decent connection and you know
>> we do need a we do need a bike rail there. >> I will just real quick. >> Yeah, >> cuz 30 years ago they built that bridge and I read through all the meeting minutes of the former director of NDS and they were talking about how bike and pedestrian friendly that bridge was and they were super excited about the
decision making on the the large the wide sidewalks and the low railings. you can see the river. So, at the time that was like considered primo bike ped infrastructure on a free bridge >> and if it was in the city it would be illegal to ride your bike over it, but
it's in the county. So, >> right. >> Uh that's right. >> I guess technically, but one could argue that those meet shared use path standards because it's 8 ft wide concrete, but whatever. >> It's still a sidewalk. That's why. >> But is it a sidewalk?
>> The city pass. But isn't it the county? What is the definition of a sidewalk? >> That's true. >> We should be advocating for uh eliminating that part of the city code that should not be illegal. >> So the work [clears throat] >> all right too late to add a question for
staff for the record. >> Sure. >> What is the legal definition of a sidewalk? >> Great. >> There is technically in the standards and design manual a definition that's 5t wide concrete blah blah blah blah blah. >> 5t wide. Yeah. [laughter]
Sidewalk. >> Sidewalk needs to be at least 5t wide. City city um to our city standards. >> That doesn't mean that something built 30 years ago was less than 50 years ago. Anything new it needs to be might be what? >> Right. So I mean like what am I going to
get a ticket >> if I ride my bike on or not? >> Well, so CPD is not actively interested in enforcing that part of the city code. I mean maybe on a case by case basis. Um but that that are those are conversations that have been had um with
advocates. So like they're not trying to go bless people at least is what they say. Um but I think the idea that you're like oh but I'm not allowed to ride on the sidewalk so I'm not going to do it when really sometimes riding on the sidewalk is the safest option. >> Um which I'm sure we're all
>> and yet like Tommy's hands are tied because he can't tell people to do that. We can't put on the bike sevil website like the easy route that involves riding outside. >> Yeah. I just want to know the law. >> I don't think outside but we can have other >> I just don't think it should be like
illegal and I think there are certain I think bikers really need to understand that they have to pedestrians. I think that's that's something that people don't know. >> Um >> there's difference of like a 10year-old riding a bike and like a 15year-old or 50-year-old in
>> spandex you know going 35 miles an hour. And I think because our infrastructure is so suboptimal, sometimes you got to ride on the sidewalk. >> Sometimes. Yeah, >> sometimes. >> But if you then say it's allowed, then people just do it everywhere. And when you have people walking out of a store and someone is riding a bike ride into
the people in Boston, it drove me crazy. >> Well, it's and it's legal in the county. >> Yeah. >> And often times, like if you're riding from the city to the county, you literally can't do it safely without getting sidewalk. >> Yeah. Are you in the county? Why would
you be walking anyway? >> Because they don't walk. >> If you collide with a pedestrian and you're riding a bike on the sidewalk, I bet that's a situation where the legality will be very >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Which is why all and this may just real
quick uh because VOTE has a study up or they may have just closed it. Any all these VOTE studies are typically looking at entrance corridors. Avon this street 250 hydraulic 29 whatever I'm saying
that's why I I think that all those interest corridors any connection should be a shared use path for that very reason we shouldn't be looking at like building more sidewalks along interest corridors they all need to be um shared use paths >> there should be fair signage on shared
use paths so the pedestrians also know that you're not being >> exactly you're not being a jerk but Yeah, they're a lot. >> I'm not going. >> Well, this goes into another thing that we need B I would like BOP to discuss at some point is
um [clears throat] emotives. >> Oh, yeah. Conversation for another time. Um motion to adjourn. What's an emot? >> All right. >> All those in favor? >> I thank you everyone on Zoom. All those in favor