All right, everyone here? You good to go? Okay. So, um yeah, welcome to uh this plan commission meeting. Um I guess we're going to start with um commissioners reports. I just want to uh start by saying that um there had been a um a listening session that had been uh
proposed for this meeting. Um and it's been postponed. Um but uh if anyone wants to speak to that uh they're welcome to during matters by the public and that is going to happen after we report from NDS but we will get to that. Um all right so um
uh Miss Recker, would you like to start with the report? Oh, or I can start with I'm okay. Okay. Um let's see. Um mainly I sit on the tree
commission. um and they are actually recruiting some new members. We had a pretty small meeting this month um and they continue to work on um policy, education, advocacy, and they have a really cool new program going on
where they're um educating neighborhoods about invasive vines on trees. And they've been doing some cool like walks and training for people to chop their own vines. And anyway, and that has been um I'll I'll send the um summary of what
they've done this year, but it really seems to be taking off as a you know, just a kind of like a very persontoperson um activity. Um, and then, um, yeah, I think it's been a hard couple weeks,
um, talking to residents in general who have nothing to do with UVA, unsure about the future partnerships there. And then with the zoning rule, you know, there's just been a lot of, I think, um, kind of uneasiness. And
hopefully we can all be patient and work together. So, um, that's all we can do. I don't have anything to report this meeting. I have a draft uh change to the Virginia
building code uh for 2027. Additional to what I've mentioned before, this one is called more affordable elevators. Trying to make make it up with a very approachable name. Uh the uh current building code uh
banned uh what I consider an elevator, you know, a sort of a classic safety elevator u mandating uh only elevators that can uh accommodate an extra-large stretcher uh with the hope that while everyone wants an extra-lar stretcher, that would be great. Um but what has in effect happened is that it's just banned
all elevators for all um uh sort of missing middle housing. Uh which was not intended. they were not trying to get rid of elevators or harm people who need elevators. Uh so this um proposal is to repermit
uh affordable smaller elevators uh as needed. Uh and uh the Virginia ARP uh uh is uh joining on this which is exciting. So I I think it may succeed. Again, this is coming out of the Charlottesville comprehensive plan uh effort to legalize
missing middle affordable accessible housing. um hack meeting was focused on the uh dissolution of OCS and a discussion of the land bank work program.
Uh January 27th is sort of the target date for passing a land bank ordinance. So uh but there is going to be some there's is some continued development
work to be done uh and uh hopefully make some adjustments to where we are presently. So that's that. Uh TJ PDC did not meet as they do not in July. Uh and I can report from other
parts of my re-remit uh community development block grant. It looks to me like we actually know what the money is. And yesterday, uh, council took the appropriate actions to actually take the money and allocate it.
And I think that's most of what I got. We skipped Danny. Did I miss it? No, I have nothing to report. Okay. Ah, guess I have to talk about tech then. Um, usually take all my items from CEK. Um we had an tech meeting on
uh June 17th. Um the big news uh is that um CAT is applying for a federal uh low no emission grant um for uh basically an expansion of uh the catyard down Avon um
including um new facilities uh for charging electric buses um and new maintenance facilities. um that grant deadline is coming up in a couple days. Um so we'll know in a few months if they received it. Um and if so, they'll uh have significant
expansion in their capacity um and and newer facilities uh to maintain buses. Um also a TDM that transportation demand management study is just getting underway at the MO. Um they will be
looking at uh you know mode share um you know how to get people out of cars and reduce BMT. Uh that is updated from the initial scope that was essentially do we have enough parking downtown. Um I uh
Lupek uh meeting was cancelled. Um I did attend a uh DHCD um building code cycle uh single stair study group meeting on behalf of Lyall who was at the beach. Um we uh managed
to achieve consensus um with all the code officials and fire officials in the room um on Lyall's uh fourstory single stair proposal um with some sort of minor caveats that I won't go into here. Um
and uh that's my report. Um since our representative from the university is not here um uh my report is uh at the June BA meeting we um let's see reviewed actually a number of
um interesting projects. one was a um uh well the um I think we we approved the hotel at on um uh 218 West Market Street. Um so we'll see um see if that moves forward uh through construction.
Um that is a six-story hotel. Um we uh we looked at a um an interesting addition to a a house over in the uh um Rugby Road um 14th Street area is on uh 17th Street and um it was a interesting
interpretation of um zoning. It's uh adding a duplex on the back of um an existing house. Um but there were eight bedrooms in each unit. So it's you know um obviously student housing. Um so but
that's um uh the BAR was supportive of that project. Um but that was just a preliminary uh a pre-application conference. So there was no action taken. Um then we had another pre-application conference for a sevenstory apartment building um on um
7th Street Southwest. And this is on the site of um the large radio antenna that is just south of West Main Street. Uh which I didn't realize is not used at the moment, but um anyways, it's uh proposed for that. And uh the big issue
is that there are two um houses from the 1800s, very small houses um but very historic uh located on the site. So the discussion is how to either incorporate or respect those houses with the construction of this very large
apartment building um directly behind them. Um so that was that was the bar and we um we will not have a meeting this month. Um so that ends the um reports and now we have a report from the department of
NDS. All right. So, I'll go ahead and start while Kelly is getting up for another piece of the puzzle. Um, wanted to let you all know that uh, Chair Mitchell is um, out of town today. Um, he also has
some other circumstances and may not be here in August. Um, so he is already getting way ahead of the game. He's already appointed a nominating committee. Um as of in September uh we have our annual meeting where vote for
new chair and vice chair. Um so the nominating committee will be reaching out to people um about your availability on that. We'll report the nom nominating committee at the August meeting and then um they will officially do their
business but they will they will be out there doing things and just wanted to make sure you guys knew about that. So, um, I've got that and then I'll pass it over to Kelly next. Good evening. Um, so I was asked to
present a, um, brief update on the current state of affairs regarding our development code. Um, so I'm just going to offer a couple of brief remarks this evening. Um, by way of background, on June 30th, the Charlottesville Circuit Court granted a default judgment in the
case of White versus Charlottesville after the city's outside council failed to meet a required deadline to respond to the plaintiff's amended complaint. As of today, we are still operating Sorry. Again, as of today, we are still
operating under the 2024 development code. Sorry, I am having multiple tech issues. It's part for the course. Okay. All right, we'll try again. As of today, we
are still operating under the 2024 development code pending the circuit court's issuance of a formal ruling. Despite the June 30th decision, building permit applications, including trade and fire permits, are continuously being accepted and processed.
All zoning related applications are temporarily on hold pending further legal and procedural guidance. Affected applications are those le listed in sections 34-5.2.1 through 34-5.2.17
of the development code and most notably include new construction, addition, site modifications and changes in use. We are continuing to review applications, but we are not issuing any approvals until we have a formal ruling from the judge.
So again, I just wanted to provide you with that update. And if you have any questions, um, you can ask me, but I'm really limited in what I can share at this time. Um, if I was a developer or homeowner
in limbo between code, so working towards the new code, but wondering if they should, are they able to come in and meet with someone about that or you would you rather they wait? Yes, they're welcome to reach out to us. Um, we do have a statement on the main
um, neighborhood development services web page that includes the information that I just shared with you today, contact information for Mr. Alfelli as our development review manager. Um, so they're welcome to be get in touch with us about their specific circumstances. Great. Thank you.
ready to move over to Alan. [Music] Well, good evening, commissioners. Um, I'm Alan Pur with the city of Charlottesville uh housing team and on April 21st at a city council work session, uh staff gave a presentation on
the topic of an affordable housing tax abatement program. uh tax abatement had been raised and briefly discussed during the uh zoning rewrite process, excuse me, the process that culminated in the inclusionary zoning ordinance uh
in late 2023. At that work session, uh council expressed interest in looking at the tax abatement concept. So they charge staff with taking a deeper dive to perform due diligence researching whether an affordable housing tax abatement would
be an effective jump start uh to uh progress uh towards the city's goal of increasing affordable housing in Charlottesville. As part of this due diligence, we're creating we are conducting a great deal of community engagement to discuss this idea. And
thus far we have uh made a presentation to the housing advisory committee uh to the chamber of commerce uh developers group cadre. Uh we've met with representatives of livable seville and this evening as part of this community engagement uh we'd like to make this
presentation to all of you with planning commission. So what is tax abatement? uh tax abatement for affordable housing uh would be a reduction in real estate taxes to serve as a financial performance-based incentive uh to
building affordable dwelling units. At this time, we're focusing on rental housing projects, not for sale housing. Uh in particular, the larger projects that are subject to the inclusionary zoning uh ADU requirement. The purpose
would be to improve the financial feasibility of building affordable housing while preserving the revenue tax base. So what is the recent history and the legal mechanism for this concept? In 2022, the Virginia General Assembly approved and codified in the Industrial
Development and Revenue Bond Act, a provision to allow local governments working with economic development authorities to reimburse a defined amount of real estate tax on the new incremental value of new affordable housing projects. It's under that
authority uh that we are considering the program. Other jurisdictions in Virginia have created similar affordable housing tax abatement programs, including the city of Richmond and Albamarl County. Uh the county's program provides a 15% tax
abatement for up to 30 years uh for projects that provide at least 20% affordable dwelling units. Because Virginia law does not allow local government to directly abate the real estate tax owed for affordable housing,
programs may create a tax abatement calculation at the front end uh of the program with a performance grant a performance grant distribution at the back end. In other words, the incentive uh is a formula uh calculated through a
real estate tax abatement and the abated tax amount is then reimbursed to the developer after they have paid their full tax bill and the abated incentive amount would be refunded. And Virginia law requires that an affordable housing tax abatement be
administered jointly between local government and an economic development authority. or should Charlottesville create a land bank authority, uh, we believe it may be able to be administered jointly with the land bank. Next slide.
Let's look at an example to be sure we understand how this works. So, let's say under the tax abatement program, the tax incentive is a percentage applied to the increment tax due that is based upon the new increment value of a new housing construction project and that amount
would be refunded to the developer. The increment value is the difference between the higher assessed value after construction uh and minus the lower assessed value before the project. That's considered the base. And the increment tax due is
the difference between post construction tax and the preconstruction real estate tax. So, on the screen in front of you, uh, we have an old property that needs to be developed that's currently valued at $100,000 and pays $100 of real estate
tax. After the construction, that same property is now valued at $250,000 and pays $250 of real estate tax. So the increment would be that post construction value that post
construction tax minus the base the $100,000 and the $100. So in this case if the tax incentive was a 50% abatement on the increment tax then in this case that increment tax due is 150. The
developer would receive a uh tax incentive of $75. So, when that developer receives their first post construction tax bill, in this case it would be $250 because we can't abate that tax directly, uh, they would pay that full
$250 and then they would receive a $75 tax abatement credit. So, uh, the outcomes of this example are that the developer gets a real estate tax abatement that defers some or all of the cost of the ADU requirement. And of
course developers can monetize today the value of that tax abatement so that they could use that uh to get the financing for their construction. The city then would get the remaining portion of the non-abated new revenue
that would not exist but for the new housing construction. So that in this uh example, the city now gets $175 of tax revenue, the $100 from the original base, and the remaining $75 increment. And of course, in this
situation, the ADUs um that the Charlotte that the inclusionary zoning ordinance are striving for would be built and increase the affordable housing stock. Next slide, please. Why tax abatement research and a market analysis? Now, in part because the new
zoning ordinance includes the 10% ADU building requirement for larger projects and this creates a new financial constraint to the ongoing operating revenue of rental housing. That constraint can be quantified as the difference in revenue between market
rate rents and the affordable rents for those 10% ADUs that are required. And there is discussion that this financial constraint may be a material impediment to rental housing construction. And I've heard some call this an unfunded mandate. At the same time, the
affordability of housing construction is rising, including land costs, construction costs, labor costs, and of course, interest rates remain high. Will those costs remain high and potentially trend higher going forward given our uncertain environment? And what is the
quantifiable impact of the ADU requirement h and how significant is that cost within the context of all these other increasing costs? Would a tax abatement incentive have an impact to jumpstart housing development? For example, the city of Boston in 2024
uh found that a tax abatement would have little to no impact on housing construction within the context of all of those other higher costs. They determined this after they conduct conducted a due diligence market analysis and a study. So at that time
they did not create a tax abatement program. So a tax abatement may be an option to provide a financial incentive to make market rate housing developers whole uh in part from this new financial constraint. But frankly we don't know that yet. And while a primary driver of
this idea is that 10% ADU ADU requirement for larger projects, questions for future study could be extending an abatement opportunity to smaller projects that don't hit the ordinance requirement but still build affordable units. Perhaps the abatement
would have no minimum size to be eligible. That is an option that will need to be uh studied more and uh discussion as part of a future effort uh due to the complexity of smaller infill projects and their potential for subdivision. Next slide.
So would tax abatement be a good strategic fit for Charlottesville? Well, that is why the first step will be research study and a detailed datadriven market analysis. The benefits and costs are mostly understood, but whether the Charlottesville market demands this
program is not uh fully understood, hence our study. The benefits of tax abatement uh include it supports long-term housing uh affordability goals. It aligns with the 2021 affordable housing plan and the 2023 strategic plan. It uses future revenues,
not existing general fund allocations to fund affordable housing. Uh therefore, it may be a more sustainable option uh to fund affordable housing going forward rather than using grants and current revenues uh current revenue from bonding. It spends city funds after
projects are delivered at the end of the pipeline rather than early in. But of course, there are costs. Uh committing future revenue for as long as 15, 30 or more years uh in a tax abatement is certainly a risk and a cost. committing
future revenue well in advance of knowing what the city budget needs will be, what the priorities will be in those 15, 30 or more years down the road. And therefore, it creates budget risks going forward in the event of an unforeseen uh
budget emergency. Next slide, please. But wait, let's circle back. How do we know this program would indeed be needed? Aren't market rate rents so high in Charlottesville that the market rate revenue will subsidize the 10% ADU
reduction? Or if not, how much should we abate taxes? Well, starting in late June, city staff is working with a consultants, 3TP ventures, on a comprehensive city housing market analysis to help us establish the extent to which the program may or may not be
needed. 3TP is looking in detail at those cost drivers of housing construction to ascertain the specific cost of the ADU requirement to help determine what the true cost impediments are to housing construction such as material, labor, financing, etc., and
help us keep those costs distinct from the actual costs of the 10% ADUs. This analysis will also help us determine the degree that market rate rents can indeed subsidize the ADU cost. So the goal of this analysis will help us achieve three
things. Clearly and objectively establish if an abatement program could jumpst start housing production or if the project would still remain infeasible despite an abatement. it help us uh and and if so if an abatement is called for the study will help us
quantify the need and help devise a tax abatement formula that keep that may keep the developer whole uh in all or in part from the ADU requirement so that we can effectively incentivize uh housing construction and finally this analysis
uh we hope may guide us to the consideration of whether to target different abatement levels to different geographic areas of the city perhaps tax incent incentives should be higher uh where market rate rents are lower and uh incentives should be lower where the
market rate rent is higher and can can potentially subsidize the cost of the ADUs. We hope the analysis will allow us to consider other incentive options as well. Next slide. What are the policy options the other tools that city government could use to
address the new ADU constraint? Well, there are the grant programs that we currently have like calf and hops and we could increase the funding for these grants, but grant funds of course cannot be awarded to for-profit developers. And grant funds come from current city
revenue or obligate bonding capacity committing current funds today for ADUs that won't be delivered until the future. and current revenue and bonding capacity may well be needed for other city government priorities like education, public safety, and parks. On
the other hand, a tax abatement program uses future real estate tax revenue that will come from the new added increment value of future development. You protect base revenue that government services depend upon and commit a portion of that added increment revenue for new
priorities like affordable housing. And this again may be an optimal way to make funding affordable housing more sustainable for city government going forward. In the meantime, while we are working with 3TP to complete our due diligence market analysis, some of the
policy issues that we will be looked at uh include starting with the highlevel options. If we did a tax abatement, should a tax abatement simply make the developer whole from the 10% ADU requirement or should it uh potentially
be more generous uh and uh in an attempt to kickstart uh housing by adding an additional tax incentive beyond that 10%. Um but if that were the case, how much more generous would need to be identified?
And of course it may be that the option uh that we fall on is the tax abatement does not provide a meaningful ability to address financial feasibility given all of those other costs and we come down where Boston came down and opt not to go forward from these highlevel framework uh
concepts that we hope to uh address through during uh through this market analysis. We might also want to consider uh the the maximum uh we would need to consider other policy options such as the maximum percentage of new incremental tax
revenue to reimburse via an abatement. In the example I outlined earlier, I hypothetically threw out the concept of a 50% tax incentive. Is that the right number? Could it be 10%. uh 20% Richmond's uh model uh goes up to 100%
uh tax abatement on that increment tax due over 30 years. Uh we will need to consider we would need to consider should eligibility for the abatement start at just meeting the 10% requirement or again should we require something more than that. uh should
eligibility uh uh also depend upon just meeting the 60% AMI requirement or should eligibility for an abatement require going a little bit deeper. Um other policy questions, how many years should the abatement last 15 years, 30
years, something else? Uh should abatements be granted anywhere or targeted to specific areas? And could an abatement payment schedule be frontloaded and scaled down over time? Some developers uh in some areas prefer that as it allows them to frontload uh
the revenue that they're going to get which can improve their financing options. Um and finally should an abatement program should it go forward provide uh bonus opportunities again for building more ADUs than are required building deeper affordability. Next
slide. So uh once again the outcome options of this due diligence effort are likely to be either determine that this uh is an incentive that makes sense and consider a recommendation to go forward or
determine the tax abatement does not provide a meaningful uh ability to uh financially uh incentivize affordable housing. and through the study look at other options that we might be able to consider if we feel that uh we need to to do something to incentivize
construction in the face of an uh uh an unpredictable future. Next slide. So once again toward this goal of completing a market analysis we are working with the consulting team from 3TP ventures which includes Mike Callahan and Jeremy Goldstein who will
be managing this project uh in particular the market analysis and data research. Uh we introduced Mike and Jeremy to our cadre uh presentation uh which was also attended by folks from Livable Seville. Uh we did that so that
uh communications could be opened up to help them gather real data from developers uh who are doing uh doing or considering real projects uh here in Charlottesville. So it was important uh to open up that lines of communication
as 3TP moves towards completing their research and analysis. We will work with them to present a preliminary report to allow additional community dialogue about their findings and preliminary conclusions. So, the study has been launched. Uh we're rolling and uh we
will keep you all informed as we go forward. And uh that's all I've got at this point, but if there's any questions, I would be happy to respond. Thank you all for your time and attention. Are there any questions? I've heard good things about the
Baltimore program which rather than a a fixed uh percent say 100% or 20% or 50%. Uh looks at the specific unit and says okay you you are charging 50% of market rate therefore your credit is 50% of market rate.
Is that a reasonable approach? It it's actually uh a model that we are looking carefully at and doing some extended research on. My understanding uh of the Baltimore model is it it indeed it requires that the developer uh submit detailed financial statements
that say here's what we're charging uh in rent for the affordable units. Here's what we could charge uh if we were doing market rate rentals. There's the difference in Baltimore abates at a portion of that kind of real time uh actual gap between uh market and
affordable rates. Um I'm not aware of exactly what percentage of that gap they're evading, but uh that's kind of the basics that I know about the program. So indeed, Commissioner, that's um you're right, that's a model that uh merits a lot of attention that we're looking at. Thank you for bringing that
up. We've gone to some trouble to uh create a comprehensive plan that outlines areas where we want uh more uh more more activity, more services, especially around park schools uh and at places with adequate transportation facilities.
Um I don't have a formula in mind, but if if we could consider that when we're looking at this, that I think that would be wise. I'm I'm making note of that. That's exactly when we in the scope of work we gave to 3TP ventures, it included
looking at various subm markets uh to look at those other uh incentive goals that we have in our plans. um you know when we we talk about transit line uh you know workforce housing that might be located on transit lines or again uh so subm markets that are also going to
depend on the develop developability of certain geographic areas construction types and then as I mentioned the rental rates again there are some abatement programs I've seen where the abatement is lower where they know that the market rate rent can be pushed up a little bit
because it's a high demand area um So we're asking 3TP to look at those things as well. So thank you again for raising that as well. What's the timeline for the 3TP study? Do you know when they'll wrap up? We're hoping that they will wrap up
sometime in uh early and midfall so that we can uh then have them present some preliminary findings uh to the community kind of a next to final draft and allow some dialogue and uh and uh have them hear input before they move towards a final one. So maybe mid to late fall but
by the end of the year everything should be wrapped up from the three from the consultant perspective on this is our timeline goal. Okay. um quit knowing that sometimes timelines slip but yeah and then I guess another question on kind of process and timeline uh do
you know if you know so let's say recommendations come out of this study um you know here are some options for a tax tax abatement program um do you know if this would then come through the planning commission and then to council or is this purely a kind of a
city council decision about the city budget are we going to stand up this that I'm not sure of what the process will be should something go forward in terms of moving from an idea to a recommendation to an actual uh proposal. I'm I'm not prepared to uh uh to know
that at this point. Fair enough. Thanks. Any other questions? They had some down there. That was my question. Okay. I This is really more of a suggestion. Um I would suggest uh be ambitious. Um we we we will learn things
as we go. Um but we have a pretty clear idea of what happens when we are not ambitious uh on uh on getting what we want. We get nothing. Yeah. I think to echo that I uh you know one of the fundamental questions here is do
we do it or do we not? And I think just to sort of emphasize that, you know, yeah, I think we do it, but my gut tells me that we go big, you know, go big or go homeless or
whatever. I don't know. Uh but uh yeah, I think that uh we should be ambitious and look at being aggressive with this. Um but and I'm very curious to see what the consultants come up with in terms of
numbers and how they approach this. because the more I think about it, the more um unmanageable that Excel spreadsheet becomes. Thanks. Well, if I may uh respond uh
commissioners, one of the reasons we selected 3TP is they've got uh experience in this area. They're currently working with Charleston. They've worked with Tampa uh on very similar questions and what they have built, which is their intention for us.
uh regardless of whether the market analysis recommends that we go forward, uh they are going to build us a model that we can use to uh be able to project out what difference of different uh incentives uh would do to help make a uh
proposed uh housing project pencil out that will would include abatement options, but it may include other incentive ideas uh that they've been working on in Charleston, Tampa, things we learned from all of you and our community engagement. So the end product will be recommendations,
data to determine the if uh and then a model so that if this program were to ever go forward, we would have a way to help project out the costs and the impacts on the budget and the ability for uh any of these incentives to help developers move forward with the
project. Um if I could throw in a suggestion, maybe this is more for 3TP, but um I I think you know when we've when we've seen these sorts of um financial models of developments in the past and whether things are feasible or not, um we often
view it as um a very black and white question. Um the model puts in certain inputs. It says, you know, here's the output for this type of development, that type of development. Um you know, it's a yes and a no. Um but I think in reality what you find is that every
development and every site is different. Um and so seeing how uh the market would react to each you know each input or each assumption changing by 10% um up or down um and really looking at what the
incentive would do uh to that marginal project um rather than assuming that kind of all projects are the same um and will all all succeed or all fail. um but rather that it's a spectrum of projects some of which will become unviable um as
we add costs and you know at the margin as we add an extra incentive you know an extra project will become viable um and really looking at it that way I think would be uh much more helpful than what we've seen in the past thank you commissioner that's an excellent suggestion and uh and um I
know that they're aware of that and I know that the model I saw I uh that they demoed for us that they have built for uh Charleston and it very much does that. But I will reinforce that message. It's an excellent suggestion. All right. Uh Mrs. Christie, was there anything else from NDS?
Um no. Okay. Uh so I guess we move into matters presented by the public not on the formal agenda. Yes. Um so we'll follow our normal procedure on this. I am going to have uh Patrick assist me in this because my
technology decided not to work. Um what we do during matters from the public is we ask if there's anyone in uh chambers that would like to speak in three minutes on whatever topic you would like tonight because we have no hearings. Um
and then we'll rotate to our um virtual audience, we'll ask there. And if anyone is interested virtually in speaking this evening, you can raise your hand in the application or if you are on a telephone, you can hit star9 and that
will raise your hand in the application. Um, so we'll begin with our in-person audience and I don't see anyone desiring to speak. Um, Patrick, do we have anyone in our virtual audience with hands raised?
James Snyder keeps raising his hand but then lowering his hand so I don't know if he wants to speak or not. Okay. Um he's the only person in what does it look like right this second? His hand is down right at this moment. Okay.
All right. Well, we'll go back to our in-person group and check on our virtual group one more time. And his hand has gone up. Okay. All right. Well, let's uh let Mr. Snder have an opportunity to speak. Mr.
Snyder, can you hear me? Yes. Can you hear me? Yes, we can hear you. You have three minutes to speak. Okay. Thank you. Um, I'm um addressing you to bring to your attention some cons
some concern some concerns that the owners of Oak Grove, Oak Lawn and Fifth Street Flats condominiums have about the zoning, the RX5 zoning between
Fourth Street and Seventh Street. This is the area between Fifth Fourth Street and Seventh Street. Our properties are on the southwest. There seems to be a long delay in my speech. I'm not sure why.
Um, we're not sure either, but continue forward. We'll do the best we can. So, we've we uh saw the article about the sevenstory student housing project. I'm going to try another microphone. Let's see if this works.
Is that any better? seems to be there. There's a long delay, but at any rate, we would like to take the chance to talk with the planning folk.
Chance to talk with the planning folks about the impact that the sevenstory zoning will have on our properties. the sevenstory zoning we'll have on our properties which unbeknownst to us are
cottages which are 20 years old and stable were reszoned to seven stories and we had no idea uh so so we've prepared some maps we've prepared some maps and other
exhibits that we could share with the commission because we think because the impact of the sevenstory student housing project on historic housing project on historic properties and on our
properties would be devastating to our property values. And I think And I think to Fightville in general, the cottage style housing, the cottage style housing that was built 20 years ago is a stable,
well-maintained transition uh between the railroad tracks, developments of proper scale that are really the kind of things being done all over the country. They are this kind of cottage and
smallcale development has been a very good transition is is a very good transition and has been very stable and we've been reszoned to seven stories. We have been reszoned to seven stories.
Our properties are directly adjacent. Our properties are are directly adjacent to the new properties owned by and purchased by the housing redevelopment authority by the redevelopment authority.
This makes no sense uh in terms of uh what's on the ground and protecting Fightville. in Fville. There are also several historic homes that would be dramatically affected that would be dramatically affected
and the excavation with no setbacks required in the current development zone. This would be would undermine our properties and really make us uh untenable to continue these properties.
Untenable to maintain these properties in the future. We collectively had no knowledge that we had been reszoned to sevenstory zoning. No knowledge that we've been reszoned to sevenstory development. So, we think
this is a good time to take a pause and talk to the planning commission and the planners and see if we can't pause and take time to talk to the planning commission and the planners to
and the staff and see if there isn't a better way forward. Seven stories on the south side of of the railroad tracks is bad planning. And um there is good planning and what's been built is actually being copied all
over the country. Um, so I I would just want to let you know we'll be trying to be in touch with folks and see if we can in touch and see if we can have a dialogue, maybe a walking tour so you
can see what we're talking about to see what is on the ground. Um, I think you'll agree when you see it that this is not a place, Mr. Snyder. Yes. Um, I apologize. I think the audio is actually becoming um a little cumbersome. Uh, would it be
I I think we'd welcome your your feedback. Um, would it be possible for you to uh contact us through the uh the email link on the city's website? And um I I'll see if I can do that. Okay. Yes. I apologize for the uh the audio. It's Well, that's right. No, thank you for
your your feedback on this. Um and um yeah, we'll we'll kind of take it from there once we once you send us this by email. Okay. And just lastly, these properties are on Fifth Street Southwest, just below the former Cork Hotel.
Understood. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Um, we'll check in with our in okay audience and then are there any other individuals on our No, not on our
hybrid either. So, uh, chair, it appears that we've, uh, we don't have any additional speakers at this time. Okay. Um, well, uh, next would normally be our consent agenda, but we have no items there and we have no public hearing. So, at this moment, we are now
the entrance quarter review board. Do I really have to do that? In your chair. Do Do we need to change clothes? I do have to say, uh, Lyall, that when you
say the word Baltimore, the there's no T. Uh, it's a D. It's Baltimore. Okay. So, it's even more mumbled mouthed where I grew up in Baltimore. So, uh sorry. Nice
to hear my my hometown uh is doing something good. Um good evening. I'm Jeff Warner, uh the city's preservation design planner, and I'm here tonight wearing my my hat as staff for the entrance corridor review
board. Um, and before you tonight is a certificate of appropriateness request, a COA request uh for the redevelopment of the 1185 seminal trail. Next slide. We think Carl, should we try these at
the B? The slides. Oh. Oh, so um, sure. Yeah. So, this COA request is for the redevelopment of a uh 4.04 04 acre site on the east side of Route 29
approximately a mile north of the 250 bypass. There is an existing singlestory commercial building uh there was built in 1995 and it will be raised to accommodate construction of a multi-story uh I believe 267 unit
residential building and a parking structure. uh this project has been approved uh has an approved preliminary site plan and with that the project is being reviewed under the prior ordinance. So that was the one prior to
the one adopted in 2023. Um next slide. So, um, a little bit off from my text, but 1185 Seminal Trail is within sub area A of the Route 29, uh, Route 29 north entrance corridor. Uh, you all
serve as the entrance corridor review board, and it's your responsibility for the design review within the city's entrance corridor overlay districts. Um, this development requires a site plan. Uh and with that um then requires a COA
uh per provisions of section 34-309 of the city code. Um and per that code um the ERB shall act on an application within 60 days of submittal date and that's when we have a complete application and you shall either approve
it, approve with conditions or deny the application and uh any appeal would be to city council. Next slide. the um so just sort of the arrangement of the site and it is unique. It's a skiddy
site and long on the east west axis uh but it's uh fronting on route 29 uh the primary facade. So on your left uh we'll have a fivetory uh elevation and at the rear on the right facing Hillsdale Drive the building is six stories. Uh the new
building is aligned on an east west exits so from front to back. uh has three bays that extend from that building uh into the north and enclosing two courtyards. And at the rear uh you see the large rectangle, there's a
parking structure um or structured parking garage. It's concealed from Route 29 by one of the bays. So, and I I say that because when you're reviewing an entrance corridor, uh it's essentially what is visible from the corridor
unlike with what we look at with the board of architectural review. Uh next slide. Just a selected rendering from the application. But, uh the bays have uh gabled grooves uh and there will either be staining seam metal or asphalt
shingles. I think the uh either is acceptable. the applicant hasn't uh made a decision on which they'll use. Um and then in the the sections of the building between the bays are flat roofs behind a parapit. The the exterior walls are
articulated as as uh we require and they feature brick panels um cement board siding and cement board panels on the ground floor. The doors and windows are set back within the opening. So, sort of that traditional punched opening within a masonry. Uh on
the upper floors, the windows not are not recessed as much. Uh, but there's a and I asked because sometimes renderings there's some issues with colors, but on this you'll see there's that L-shaped um
uh shadow around each window and that is a separate colored uh brick panel that's set back about one inch. So, sort of creating that that image of the traditional punched windows. Um the design is I guess you would say a
contemporary interpretation of typical and traditional architecture um in element style and its building materials. Gabled roofs, flat roof with parapit bricks and siding, enclosed courtyards, covered entrances, private balcony. So fairly typical of
Charlottesville. Next slide. Um, in reviewing a COA request, uh, you all, the ERB will apply, uh, the standards set forth within section 34310 of the city code and which requires
consideration of certain features and factors in determining uh, the appropriateness of the proposed construction. And those are one the overall architectural design, form, style of the building, structure of the building or structure uh including but
not not limited to massing and scale. Two, the exterior architectural details and features of the subject building. Three, the texture, materials, and color materials proposed for the building. Uh four, the design and arrangement of the buildings on the site. Uh five, the
extent to which the features and characteristics in the uh prior four items are architecturally compatible or incompatible with similar features and characteristics of other buildings within the same entrance corridor. And finally, uh the application of the
provisions of the entrance corridor design guidelines. So, next slide. And uh briefly the staff recommendation is that the project uh generally meets the standards and guidelines for a COA within an entrance corridor. Um we
recommend approval of the COA with the conditions that I've I've listed out in the suggested motion for approval. I know the applicant is here. Um, I had offered to them that uh they could certainly review the project, but maybe uh jump to any questions if you all had
any and not go with a a 10-minute review if that wasn't necessary. But, um, do you have any questions for me? You're on. I do have Oh, is that for Jeff or Jeff? That's cool. I'm not leaving. So,
okay. Um, so I in the the suggested motion we have has some conditions and I'm curious are these conditions um I guess like I don't know much about lighting from the garage and how it impacts things and the report doesn't go
into detail about kind of why these conditions are here. I wonder if you could just tell us more about that. And I'm also curious if these things are are these additional requirements than what is already there in our kind of standards and guidelines that we have
for for builders. Yes and no. Um one the lighting issue has been one for at least the seven and a half years I've been working for the city and um what we've gone a long way in solving some of
that. The primary uh issue was with the new LED lighting technology. The lamping, you can't say light bulb anymore. So, the lamping was um sort of that glare bomb that you see uh uh you see some of these cars today have the
headlights, it literally blinds you. So, that's probably like around 10,000 K the color temperature. Um the BAR several years ago came up with a condition of 3000K color temperature dimmable and a
color rendering index um of 80 preferably not less than 90. Color rendering index if you will is um it's more when you have a lot of lights like this. if you're uh in a stadium setting
or on the mall, it it's how realistic that light renders colors. So, it's um so the dimmable means we can if somebody complains about it, the the ability to lower the brightness, the color
temperature seems to be pretty good with that brightness and glare. And then I said the the color rendering index is it's sort an aesthetic. Uh so we've applied that for some time to the BAR uh the planning commission. It's it's it's
been applied in other situations. So that's where the sort of the development of that lighting thing. Now it was adopted in the code that was it the 2000 2023 code but it's not in the old one. So that's why we continue to use it as
conditions. But it's always helpful to explain how and then um the thing about the garages and this actually Carl brought this up several years ago on on a B project is when you have um a garage without walls,
you get lights shining into other buildings in houses. So, we've tried to as best we can um address that with the vehicular lights and that I think that last first time that really came up was with 2005 JPA.
So, this condition is from that and then of course the um going back to the the the interior lighting, our rules address exterior lighting, but sometimes that the lights that are just inside the garage can be just as bad. So
that's the evolution of that. Hopefully it's it's fully codified, but for this project, it's it would be okay. So these are things that would be required if this were under the new zoning, but since it's not, we want to add it as That's right. And and it's Yeah, it's sort of the evolution of of things that
because you all, for example, a good one, um entrance corridor signage is um I review that administratively. One thing we've been trying to do for years is not is get away from internally lit signs that give off a red glow. We don't
have an ordinance that says that, but I was able for entrance court to signs and say, you know, because you all have some say over that that that visual aesthetic. But now in in the new ordinance, that's been addressed. Okay. So, thanks. Appreciate it.
All right. Good evening, commission members. My name is Chuck Rap. I'm a landscape architect and planner with Collins Engineering. Um, would it be possible to bring up our slide presentation? Pull up whatever this uh presentation slides from the application
packet. Y, how do you spell that, please? My last name rap r a p I'll briefly talk about the site uh landscape and lighting for the site and pass it on to a member of our design team from the architect's office here.
There we go. All right, next slide. Next slide. One more. All right, just to orient everyone, uh, as Mr. Warner said uh is on northern end of the city here right the the city
county line route 29 Hillsdale is on the the just the one side of it um property fronts on both the next slide please just a bird's eye view of that site again you have the route 29 uh primary frontage there Hillsdale to to the rear
and the post office immediately adjacent to it it's relatively flat site existing uh parking lot out there now with the what we all know as the Habachi Grill restaurant right now. Next slide, please. Just some existing photos of the site. Uh, as I mentioned, primarily it's a
large parking lot, relatively flat. Um, there are two entrances off of 29 and one uh secondary entrance off of Hillsdale. Next slide, please. Next slide. This is uh illustrative of our site plan
uh with landscaping on it. Shows the the general layout of the proposed multif family building. The as mentioned there's the large uh structured parking there uh attached to the building and then a small amount of surface parking as well. Have two amenity courtyards. Um
I will say there are some unique challenges to some utilities that run through here. There's multiple gas lines and major sewer lines that are running through the site which are kind of highlighted there with some of the utility easements that we're working around with some of the landscaping and building configuration. Um did our best to to avoid those. We do uh were able to
accomplish some street trees along Route 29. Um using some uh more of a columner uh tree, the Regal Prince oak um landscape screening um adjacent to the parking lot to shade the adjacent uh to screen the adjacent property. Mixture of trees there and shrubs. And then there
are a few existing trees along Hillsdale. And then we've added in some uh little leaf lynen as well as service berry uh to provide a little variety back there. And then um there's this large open area to adjacent to Hillsdale there where we've we've added some additional uh plantings to help reforest
the site and bring uh that urban can be back uh to an extent. Next slide, please. Um site lighting for the most part is just really lighting that outdoor parking lot. Um it is kind of a typical razor type fixture. uh full cut off dark sky compliant just to
illuminate that exterior parking. Uh as I mentioned, majority of the parking is interior within that deck. Um that's the only site lighting that's proposed at this time. So with that, I'm going to pass it off to um Ryan from HTM to talk about the architecture.
Hi, good evening. Uh my name is Ryan Kelz with Copa Mock Architects and uh I'm just going to briefly talk about the the mostly the exterior of the building. If we can uh go to the next slide, it's probably ne one after that.
So in general, and some of this may reiterate what was said previously, but uh starting at this the closest spot to you, that is a fivetory uh facade, and it does drop off to be six stories in the back. Basically, the the site is
relatively flat. Um, but towards the back, it does drop off enough to get a six story at the base. We're getting we're designing that as a type 3A construction uh primarily, but the back portion that does have the six stories
has a a small concrete podium area. In general, the layout of the design is sort of this E-shape with these two courtyards. Uh the the courtyard that is closest to you in this picture here is slightly larger. That is more kind of a public um active courtyard. The
secondary courtyard is maybe a little bit more private. And then we have these three wings that are kind of these um they're basically identical wings kind of protruding out from that as well. Um, you can see maybe if we can slide the
image to the left a little bit or to the right. Zoom out. Zoom out maybe. There we go. Uh, in general the architectural language for this um, as was said is sort of this modern interpretation of a
vernacular architecture. Um and we are using that in a lot of ways to one to create kind of this dynamic expression um in the city sort of this gateway uh element there. Um, and it creates a nice
visual break with the massing and the roof forms where we have on the right side of the image, you can see these larger roof forms and then it really kind of steps down as you go to the left, which is to the north on uh on Seminal Trail. And so we're stepping
that down uh in scale and using a number of scaling items uh scaling uh techniques to break that down as well. You can see that we have um a kind of a light gray brick as a primary facade
material along Seminal Trail. And those three other facads in the courtyard that step back, they're all kind of facing out towards the front. And we have a secondary material which is this um wood look uh fiber cement panel which is uh
basically at this smaller gable as well. the the gables. We have the large gable on the right side of the image and then the smaller. And what that does besides just creating kind of a dynamic expression, it's allowing us to have a flat roof area on the back side where we
can have um mechanical units uh on the roof as well. Flip to the next image, please. So again this is kind of looking at the um uh from seminal trail um and we are using those scaling images uh scaling
techniques I should say at the corner creating uh large ganged windows um these are all basically punched windows but you we can kind of cobble them together if you will to create larger looks. Those are kind of ganged together. At the base is where we have
our amenity space. So, that is really going to be have almost a retail look to it where it'll be kind of glowing at night, very active at the base, which is something that we want along the street there. That amenity space builds all the way through the building to the other side. So, it's going into the courtyard
as well. Um, and as we go to the left side of this image, you can see in the distance, that's where we have our pre-cast garage. I'll get to another image as we come along. Uh, but that's the pre-cast garage there. and okay yeah let's go to the next image here
so this is looking around the corner this is the longest part of the facade and one of the main reasons that we wanted to introduce the gable forms and we can imagine if this was all flat roof um it might be a very long linear u design but these gable forms really
provide a nice focal element for your eyes to kind of stop on and diminishes the the effect of the the length of the building um again we are breaking up even within the kind of the hyphens between those gable forms, the the light
gray and the black, breaking those up a little bit as well to help uh reduce the sense of scale um of the building as it goes down the street. Next, and then on the Hillsdale side, we're not we don't want to forget the
Hillsdale side. So, we're taking that what was sort of a secondary material, the the woodlook fiber cement, and that becomes a primary uh material on this facade here because we do have a secondary uh lobby uh entrance on this
side and some amenity space at the base there. Um, and so that is uh basically a way to create a um a focal point at this side of the building as well. And you can see the bottom what's in the kind of
the gray brick at the bottom of the image here. That is that lower sixth level that is in a concrete podium. Next image. And so the final image we have here uh kind of wraps around the building on on
Hillsdale. Uh you can see how we are wrapping the garage. The garage is completely wrapped. It's either wrapped by units on the the um south side or by screen on the north and the the east east side. Uh these panels these
screening panels are um conceived of as these vertical battens. Um, you know, we've done this a lot where we you have vertical battens are sort of randomized so that they can uh block the light as we were talking about blocking light from the cars and the um the lights from
the interior as well. But a lot of this honestly um you can see the trees in the foreground. They're kind of faded back. A lot of this is actually going to be screened by the trees as well. Next image. Oh, and then here's our final image.
Just kind of looking at the courtyard, you can see how we have different sides. Um on this side of the courtyard, it is primarily a fiber cement panel um above that amenity space at the base. You can see all kind of the glazing and the openness of that. Um and it's a a
different facade type than we have on the other side facing the street. Next, um I wasn't really going to go through the elevations. I don't think they read quite as well. So, we can maybe flip through those. And if you want to just go to the materials slide. Yeah, that
one there. So, we have two different types of brick, the light gray and a dark gray at the base. Multiple colors of fiber cement panel. And then the fiber cement um uh woodlook siding which is on the bottom left.
That's it. Um basically the typical plan just kind of showing the a typical arrangement of the units um around the courtyard and then the the um the parking garage. I think that's all we have. Okay. Thank
you. Are there um any questions from the public? Do we have any public left? Um no. No. All right. We don't typically do that though. We don't offer ECB. No.
Okay. Well, I'm sorry. Actually have a question for the applicant. Um, yeah. Uh, yeah, we'll just Yeah. jump in. Uh, if I might ask, um, do you have any issue with the, uh, proposed uh, uh, langu uh, language from staff at?
Acceptable. Thank you. Are there any other questions for the applicant? Yeah. Who wants to start? I don't um I think it's it's a super hard site because no one wants to be next to 29
North as I'm sure you guys know. Um and I think that the scale, you know, the breakdown of the scale works really nicely. I actually the gables have a little bit of a Danish or like European look. It's nice and clean. Um,
yeah. I I guess this is unrelated to the entrance corridor, but the the pool seems like it's on the north side. Like, is there are you trying to block the post office building or um the cars coming up 29? I feel like
it kind of buffers, you know, the pool will be not on the traveling side. I get I just wondered about that. Yeah. Um, as far as the pool in that coro, we've tried to kind of we'll try to push it out as far as possible. Um, so that you do get some sun. That's kind
of been a focus. Uh, but mainly you have you have a large gas line that runs through the parking lot, which is why the building is on the side it's in, unfortunately. Yeah. Um, and so the gas line goes all the way. Sorry, unrelated, but I I do think that um this is going to be new for us. you
know, we're obviously hoping 29 will um become a more walkable place and, you know, and uh we need housing. I But I think it looks pretty clean. I think the materials are nicely laid out to, you know, as you were saying, to kind of
like get the scale toned down um in a place where scale is kind of meaningless out there right now. Um, so hopefully this will set the standard for some of what's to come, but I think it looks nice. Do you have any questions? N
questions. No, thank you. I just want to uh agree with you on uh most of that. And uh you know it is uh you know considering the neighbors that you're dealing with uh particularly to
the south. I mean that particular parking lot the back parking lot of the uh post office is u I don't have a diplomatic way to describe the aesthetic of that parking lot. So I won't uh and uh you know I don't know if we can
embarrass the United States Post Office. We've been trying to do that with their delivery service for years and that hasn't worked. Um, yeah, I don't really have anything else questions. Um, yeah, I've got I've got a couple things. I guess I I'll start with a couple uh for the architect. Um, these
are mostly out of curiosity. Um, so uh I guess first um on the gables you have these these vertical dark elements. Um can you talk a little more about why those are in there? Are they aesthetic? Are they functional or Yeah, it's primarily aesthetic. Um,
basically when you have that large kind of gable end, um, it could become visually maybe too massive, too too monotonous, if you will. Um, we do sometimes get, uh, vents at that area as well. So, that could be incorporated. Um, but the the reason for the length of
that, the size of that is primarily the aesthetic just to break it up a little bit. Okay. And then, um, why'd you go for this shade of brick, this light gray? the well, the shade of brick, we didn't want to go for kind of a reddish brick. We wanted to do something a little um
more modern um contemporary, but it's also kind of an earthy feel to it. Feels kind of natural um as opposed to like a bright white brick or something like that. So, the way that we were approaching it, it almost feels like stone, if you will,
but it's done with brick. Um, and that color with the the wood tone, it just seemed to have a nice combination with that and then the darker brick as well at the base. Okay. And then um I know uh Mr. Warner
made some suggestions um along the lines of a of a more prominent um cornis like feature. I'm assuming those are for the flat roof segments. Um can you talk about why you didn't opt to uh incorporate those? Well, again, I think
in a more uh maybe contemporary um roof form, we wanted to keep it relatively simple and and instead of having a more traditional roof overhang or corners piece, um again, just kind of keep it more modern um simplified, but done so
in a in a way that the details a nice simple clean detail uh for that. Okay. And then sort of same question um for the uh I think you suggested like a a uniform um like base element along the
Well, we did actually um basically uh to respond to that comment, we did increase the dark brick at the base a little bit um around certain areas. Um we just didn't want to take it all the way up to the base uh all the way up to the top of the first level. We really like the idea
of some elements of the of the brick coming to the ground instead of everything being kind of floating. Okay, thanks. Um, yeah, I say I have to echo Betsy. Um, I'm pretty impressed with how this project looks. Um, for an
old zoning ordinance project done by Wright, um, it it actually looks pretty good. Um, even with gabled roofs and no cornises, uh, I'm okay with it. Um I guess I do have a few questions for Mr. Rap. Um these are going to be centered
around um chapter 3 uh the the site chapter, the site design chapter of the uh ECRB guidelines. Um and in particular the the connectivity portions. Um if we can we pull up the last rendering.
Um I think I noted in the this is sort of the first off uh looking from Hillsdale um I noted in the text that it said there's going to be a sidewalk and there's currently a sidewalk, right? Um in the rendering it almost looks like there's a large grade change. Is that just a rendering?
It's a rendering issue. Uh the sidewalk along Hill there is actually expanded to 8 ft where possible where we don't have the bump out for the parking. Um but uh no it's it's great. The whole whole sidewalk runs along Hillsdale. Uh the building exit out there, the backside near the post office is almost
level with Hillsdale. Uh it just was an issue. I think there's a fence line along the post office that might have been grabbed when the service model was created. And I see. Okay. Greeks and habit. Yeah. Great. Um that's good. Yeah. I mean, I'm glad to see uh the pedestrian connection to Hillsdale since that's probably where
most residents will be going um on foot or on bike. They're not going to be going up 29 on foot most of the time. Right. Right. um and throughout the site. Uh I do have a little bit of a concern about that sort of that sidewalk crossing the garage entrance and I hope
you guys will do some kind of treatment um to that entryway just so if a pedestrian is walking up from Hillsdale and trying to get to the northern or to the western part of the site um that they can cross that safely. Certainly. Um, but I think my larger concerns um are just about how this uh
this site connects with adjacent parcels not via 29 and uh and Hillsale, right? It's like 800 ft deep. Um the guidelines talk about uh you know pedestrian pathways within a site and between
adjacent sites. Um, as I assume you guys are aware, uh, there's a proposal for a development on the adjacent site on the Aluro side, right? Um, are you guys working with them at all? There's there have been communications. Uh, I'm not part of the same team, but,
uh, certainly there's been some dialogue there. Yeah. Okay. Um I I mean I guess what I'm looking for is is some sort of interpersonal connectivity um you know at least uh for pedestrians right to get through that parking lot to that next
site over. Um you know in particular you know I think you know if two large buildings do end up next to each other people are going to know each other be walking between the buildings but um you do also have that waw wa at the corner that people are going to be walking to. Um, in your case, if someone lives uh on
the on the wing next to the garage and they need to walk to Wawa by going all the way to 29 and then walking up, it's going to be twice as far as just sort of cutting across uh in the way the adjacent site is currently proposed. Um it would be nice to see uh you know some
sort of accessible pedestrian pathway um to interconnect or or provision to do it, right? Um, you know, I think I'm obviously in Alro County, um, there are there are much more stringent requirements, um, to interconnect between parcels than we have in our old
zoning code and even new zoning code. Um, but I'm wondering, you know, if you guys give any thought to sort of, you know, trying to comply with the spirit of those, um, and what the impediments might be. Certainly, I think it's a valid suggestion. Um, as it is now, obviously we have the the 8ft uh expanded sidewalk
along 29. Um, I think it a lot of it would have to do with how that site shakes out um as to where that connection should be. Um, if you don't want a sidewalk that's going to run right of a building um I I remember some of the original plans for that property from years ago. Um, and I know it's it's kind of evolving.
Um, and so certainly I think not opposed to to trying to make a connection once that that site is flushed out. um as far as how it works for the timeline on this project. Um I'm open to to discussion that for sure. Yeah. I I guess the tricky part you know that I'm thinking about is is you can't know that that is guaranteed to happen
as a project and what the final design will be. Um but you know I want to make sure that there's provision for that happening in the future for whichever project happens second that it will be able to connect somewhere. Yeah. Um you know I I do I am leaning towards
wanting to include this as a condition. um you know, sort of the pedestrian maybe equivalent of of a sort of stub street like you'd see in a county subdivision, right? Um but you know, maybe I'm struggling with exactly how to word that. Um I'm wondering if you have any suggestions for for how you can
incorporate that or how you'd suggest I incorporate that idea. I do I might defer to city staff to figure to how what language would be appropriate for how they like to do that. Um I know each locality is somewhat unique with that language with how they like to craft it. Um, as far as where it would go though, I mean, I I
guess uh the site is tight as it is now, and so I hate to break it apart. Um, just just um the only spot I could think of would be at the end of the parking bay before you get to that open kind of forested area or the grass area right now might
be depending on kind of how that how that would tie into the adjacent property. Yeah, that seems like about the area except that I think that that is cuz on the north side, right, there's there's technically two properties, right? One's the VIA site and one's uh that site that's being talked about for development. I'm not sure that the big
one goes that far back. Um you might be right. Yeah, I I think you know the way to do it would probably be to cut across through one of your sort of landscaped like parking brakes. Um but again, you know, I don't want to be overly prescriptive. Um, I just want
to to create provisions for for a future midblock connection. Um, yeah, it's that's it's a good question and and I do want to say you you said walking to Wawa. I think that's a as optimistic a thing. I love it. I love it.
Oh man, if you're a 14year-old Oh, yeah. If I live in that building, I'd be walking to Wawa. But um it it's it's difficult to have a condition that requires the neighbor to do something. Yeah. Whatever is going to happen over
there and who knows what outl they can do. I I I mean if you all wish to you certainly you can craft a condition and put it in there and they can always you know you're having conversation now or if they it
doesn't work you can they can even ask council about it. What we've traditionally done with the bar is when there's a something like this treat it as a recommendation. Uh, and I know that's not binding, but it it it's um
there there are ways to suggest it, recommend it, encourage it without encumbering them with something that may not be So, I mean, I guess the way I'm thinking about it though is that it would be like a stub connection that wouldn't necessarily connect to anything if if
the next site didn't develop, but that when it develops, um, it will be there for them to connect to. But of course, Al Marl will make them do it probably. Um yeah, I think I mean it makes sure knows uh this is one of the complicating things of um at what scale
can you start to extend things uh uh when you're just looking at the site and I hate paper towel to planning. I like to look pat but I I just don't know how you would word it. I do think I'm maybe I'm sorry to get sorry to cut you off. I I do think this
is in the scope of of the ECRB because we have these extensive guidelines on mid-sight connections and particularly for this corridor we have such a long block length um that those midblock connections become really important. Um, and I maybe the way I would phrase it is
just to have uh a midblock pedestrian connection um to the to the property line um on the north side. So,
I think my concern I think you're I uh applaud and endorse your intent. I think that we just you never know what a kitten's going to do and the next site over, you know, frankly, who knows how
they're going to flesh out and develop. I mean, anything beyond, you know, recommend strongly that they that they be very proactive in putting in some sort of midblock, you know, in conjunction with the
neighboring property, etc., etc. I mean, I don't know. I don't want to sort of cause an expense for them to put somewhere that goes nothing and then the neighboring property says, you know, too bad and we're doing something else. It, you know, it dead ends at our uh at our transformers. Have a nice day or whatever.
Yeah. I I I imagine what I'm suggesting, you know, 10 to 15 ft of sidewalk is not a major expense for you guys. Um, and this what I'm saying isn't too ownorous, and feel free to correct me if if that seems wrong. Um my only fear is that if
we don't have a sidewalk over there and so it's a sidewalk to to kind of to nowhere until it's to somewhere. Right. Correct. Um which which is how roads work in new subdivisions in the county though. Um and then in the county site plan
review process when a stub road exists they require that you extend to it. Right. Even a pedestrian. Well not for pedestrian that's just for for vehicular which totally makes sense. Um, but I guess I have a hard time a little bit pushing the sidewalk there when we have one couple hundred feet to
one side. Um, you know, uh, and as was stated uh by your fellow commissioner, we have no idea what's going to happen on that adjacent site and you know that the screening is required for a reason um, for the benefit of both properties, you know. Um,
yeah. I mean, you know, you say a couple hundred feet, we're talking 400 feet in either direction from the middle of the site. Um that's significantly more than a city block downtown. Um you know like the the length of this site is is coming up on three city
blocks downtown. Rory, I mean the next developer could do a they could do exactly what this building has done and put a big long saw all the way across there. Yeah, they could not have their parking lot there. Um or they could orient it the opposite direction, right? Um, but is there would
it be difficult to add it later? Um, I from either a construction wise or even a procedure site plan wise. I I think the difficulty of adding it in later is that they could say no. Um, I I would be fine with with putting it in a condition that if they ever build
it that you guys have to let them build a pedestrian connection to the pedestrian network on your site because those guys are not going to be able to get to Hillsdale otherwise, right? And then that those people are not going to be able to ever bike to anything in our in our new mixed use area in our plan.
Um the problem I think with that is that we can't you know put the condition forcing them to do something in the future post site plan. And that's why I'm suggesting to build it as a stub so that it's there to make the connection um once that is built out if they choose
to do it. Yeah. Can I ask a question? So, are you talking about if you just like an amenity courtyard too, say let's extend one of those sidewalks as a crosswalk. Mhm.
So, all it is is a sidewalk. It takes out one tree and it's a little stub other side. That's all we're saying. Yeah. And either take out one of those grassy strips or lose one parking spot. I mean, you're way over parked anyway, so that
I imagine wouldn't be too ownorous. But you're not prescribing where it goes. You just want it somewhere along that line because, you know, events may overtake us. Exactly. I don't want to be overly prescriptive here. I mean, I I would rather you not put it right at the first
spot next to 29, obviously. Um somewhere in roughly the middle area uh would be ideal. Um, but uh but I I want to I want to add the least restrictive, least prescriptive
condition that doesn't let you say when those guys built the big apartment building and they want to let their residents bike on Hillsdale, you can say nope, sorry. Um, no trespassing, keep off our landscape offer. Mr. Chair, I have a motion.
Um, I'm not ready for a motion because I have some questions. Very good. Um, and LA, maybe let's let's come back to this thought. Um, but, um, all right, a couple questions for the architect. Um, and I know these may sound a little picky, but I guess what I'm getting at
is I'd like to know that what what's being proposed in the renderings is what we're going to get. So, um, are there going to be downspouts? And I'm a little I'm wondering how that's going to work on the 29 facade where you've got the kind of the facade bumps out. Um,
yeah. So we there will be down spouts. Uh we have this we've done this condition on other projects in the past where we have that kind of I think it's a one or two foot separation between the brick. That's what you're you're talking about, right? Yeah. I think there there'll be a
transition piece there. Um we when we have the down spouts, we typically um sometimes try to you know color match it so it goes away, but then we will have that transition piece as it goes down to the to the brick portion as well. And we also try to minimize um the visual
impact of that, putting them in locations where they're either kind of tucked into a corner or things like that. Um I know that's not really possible on that facade, but yeah, it's quite a long facade with um um I guess it'll be the same thing for the flat roofs. Are you expecting to
drain that off the side through scuppers or uh typically downspouts? Yeah. Courtyard. All right. So, we'll be seeing some some metal tubes around that sides of the buildings. Okay. Um the um
you've mentioned fiber cement. It's a lot of fiber cement. Um is it what are the joints going to be? Are you going to use battens? Are you going to use We prefer to use um reveal joints between them rather than the battens um when possible. And
uh the Yeah. So anywhere there's kind of a panel that would be the preferred method to use. Um can uh would there be opposition to us putting a condition that you'd have to use like a extruded joint? Um because what I'm getting at is if you do
battens, it's going to be a very very different look from what we're looking at. Um which then moves on to the woodlook fiber cement. What is that? Is it are they planks? Are they panels? Um what makes it woodlook? like is it a laminate of something on it or
so? Primaril the the main woodlook um fiber cement that we use is a product called Niha. Okay. Um and there's other ones out there as well. So um but that's the the kind of main brand for it. And it's a it's a panel. They come in uh lengths. I think
they're like 10 ft by 18 in. And they have like three grooves. Um from a distance they're very convincing. They have a lot of variety and texture to them. The color kind of changes. So it doesn't just look like, you know, like a painted piece of something that's
painted wood color. It actually looks like wood from a distance. Okay. So that's that only has visible horizontal joints. Correct. It's going to look like vertical siding with like a horizontal strip at Exactly. So you'll when we have them vertically oriented, you won't really
see the joints this way, but you will see like at every floor level basically there will be a horizontal. Okay. Um see um there are wall sconces in the application. Where are those going?
Uh those are primarily at the entries. Okay. So they won't be are they going to be at like all the balconies? I don't think we have them at balcony. Not all right. That's no kind of my that was most of my concern with those is that they're going to be all over the building or just down the entryways.
Um the mechanical units I think you said they're going on the roof. Is that correct? Yes. On the roof. Um the project narrative talks about utilities being screened from Hillsdale. Um what kind of utilities are we thinking and where exactly are they going?
I or services I think was the word that was used. Um, like are we talking about like is there a big transformer that's going to be hiding in those trees on the northeast corner or we do we will have transformers. I to be honest I'm not uh I don't recall exactly
where those are located. I'm not sure if we figured that out yet. Okay. Yeah, that would be yeah as far as utilities um HBAC condensers would be on the roof. The only thing that would be on the site uh trash is internal so there's nothing like that external. It would just be
electric transformers is the only thing I would be aware of. Okay. Okay. Um I think those are all my questions. Um I think so some of you already kind of broke into comments. We can go through if we want to do more comments. I've got
my own comments I can tackle now or wait for you guys. Do you have do you guys have additional comments you want to add? No, I I think I like uh Rory's suggestion and I'm not sure how to word it, but um it's difficult because that
whole area there's not really a cohesive there's nothing to respond to. So, um yeah, I think just right. So, a suggestion that someone might cross a boundary would be great. Um, but
otherwise I'm okay with the the look. Um, can I can I suggest that that crossing uh maybe we just have a midblock crossing or a mid-p parking lot crossing uh as a as a a condition of the site plan approval because we're almost we we have a few more comments to address in the site plan. We're pretty darn close.
Um but seems like that could be taken care of with site plan because we've got a lot of stuff utilities and things parking lot crossing to the property line. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, that sounds good. Crosswalk. Um, also I think uh you know I have to pull it up the shape files and GIS because the county GIS is down, but
I think the uh end of your parking lot is still adjacent to the future development site now. So you would be good to put it there if you wanted to. Yeah, we'll find a spot for it. Um, my only other comment would be that it'd be nice to find a way to activate uh that sort of grassy area in the
northeast. I know it's a little hilly in parts um but a picnic venture there. That's not going to be a condition or anything, but cool. Okay. Um, any other comments from anyone else? I just wanted to say I have some language.
Okay. Um, we will come back to you. Um, I guess my comment was um, uh, yeah, I'm I know the entrance corridor is 29. Um, it seems to me, and you guys correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like Hillsdale is going to be the more urban corridor
at some point. Um, so we're kind of stuck in this weird thing where 29 has to look nice, but then Hillsdale, I feel like this project's ignoring it. And I'm a little I'm curious why you guys haven't put more building mass back there. Um, and kind of wrap the garage
more uh, and followed along Hillsdale more. Um, I'm also curious what's going to happen in this big You have a clump of trees and you have a big grassy area. Is that your storm water? No, there is a primary sewer line that runs through there and then there are
two primary gas lines that run through there. So that's why it's it's we can't put a building there. We can't put road through there. We can't do anything in there basically cuz I see the utility some trees where I could I see the utility easement and then there's a which kind of cuts a diagonal, but there's still kind of a big chunk of
there's another one doesn't show up on the rendering. Um I just couldn't get the line work to gray back properly. Um but it it so yeah there's like the open areas are where there's an easement basically. Um so our uh the storm water for this site is underground um underneath the one
amenities the second amenity space the courtyard there and then it does discharge into that area where there's a culvert that goes underneath Hillsdale. So right now that kind of area that area is essentially acting as a small okay storm water basin. Interesting shoot but we aren't using it as such. We're just discharging it. to add to your
point about Hillsdale being the main corridor. I think that really is true and that's sort of the fundamental idea with this whole parallel grid system that led to the Hillsdale extended project that got Hillsdale extended all the way to hydraulic. Um and our guidelines predate that
project. Yeah. Um so I do think they're a little outdated in that respect. I'm sure you'll keep that in mind as we update them. Um but uh I do agree that Hillsdale is kind of the important uh frontage here. Yeah, if I can offer a perspective
having I was you know in my 20 years fighting the bypass and became the uh uh I was actually very instrumental in the the whole grid network in that discussion. And so I I I I almost feel a little bit of ownership to that. But I I was just going to say
to your question and and and something Carl had asked me earlier um relative to the to the hydraulic 29 small area plan um and maybe I'm I'm sort of giving a look at this as success in in in a way
and that uh what was had been shown here in the plan was for this to be a this parcel was to be a road connecting to and and beginning to create that network of streets. And but in fact that the result is in fact a street. I mean we all know I mean
the old uh Kmart bypass this will be the new you know bypass slightly north of of Kmart. So uh so we've got you know it's resulting in a street is resulting in a also a sidewalk connection uh between 29 and Hillsdale. So it's accomplishing
some of the things at least east west that had been envisioned in that small area plan. Um, so I I was going to say it's not a total loss in the sense of connectivity and and and moving towards what we had hoped would be realized with that smaller plan. Not a perfect
solution. Um, but I'm just saying as far as that middle of the parcel connection, I was just offering that as a perspective. Yeah, Carl, I see you your brain. Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, it's frustrating. Um I I can now I think guess it's a Is the utility easement a
really fine light colored line? I've got the You want to see I've got the uh I think I see what's going on. Um I So yeah, I guess there probably isn't much we can do with it, but it is um it seems a little unfortunate. Um even because it looks like you can't put
trees there either. Um, but I am, you know, when it talk about the garage and screening the lights, um, I mean, this screen concept you guys have provided, um, it's vertical slats, so you'll see straight into the garage between the slats. Correct.
And, well, yes, you would, but primarily we think you're going to be seeing it kind of obliquely. Typically, you're not as often looking straight on onto it. Yeah, I guess I my my concern is just that garages because safety
concerns tend to be very brightly lit from the inside. Um, and that tends to be the problem that we see around town is the parking garages are just glowing so brightly um that it's um it becomes a little bit um I it
it becomes a problem. Um so I don't know if um and you've got so much of this garage exposed to your neighbors and then to Hillsdale. Um, I do wonder if that technique is going to be sufficient. I know we put a we're going to potentially put a condition in to tell you to make those lights dimmable,
but at some point you or the owner is going to say, "No, I don't want to dim it anymore because it's not safe for people inside." Um, so I do kind of wonder about that being um if that's going to be a problem. Um, I'm not offering many solutions, just
complaints at this moment. I apologize for that. It is a the project I I I think you guys have done a good job with the masting materials and what um Oh, the inset. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Know, I get it. I get it. That's unfortunate. Um
although it does look like there's a storm water outflow right there in the middle of it. Um all right. I see what looks like a bunch of rocks. I don't know if that's you do have a small uh so that's where the uh underground retention will eventually discharge but it has to
discharge in a location that is not within an easement. So okay yeah I would have as a landscape architect I would love to make that an awesome space but no I get that you guys are stuck. I mean you guys have again I think you you've done a good job with the the massing of
materials. Just I would like to know that it's going to look like what you've proposed. So, um I the I think the nijiha I don't know how we can craft our emotion to I mean you're going to review this. So something similar to nijiha. Um
and then the um using an extruded um joint for the fiber cement panels elsewhere. Um I think I don't know if you guys agree with that or not, but I'd like to throw that in there. Um just so that we get it what looks like a flat plane on the renderings doesn't become like the basket weave thing that we get
on you know West Main Street um with all the battens. Do you have language for that? Yeah, I can I can give you some language for that. Um where what's being treated? Oh like um the standard and the flats
have the the battens on their fiberment so it becomes very heavily gritted. Um, and then they it ends up collecting dust and mildew and looking great after 10 years.
Um, I I have lots of opinions about fiber cement. I apologize. Um, yeah, I guess it's not worth pushing back on much. I mean, I don't I don't know what to do about the garage. Um, I don't know if anyone else is going to feel that way, so maybe
we let it go. Um, but it is a lot of garage exposed to the neighbors and I definitely would have preer preferred more building on that side, especially if it would have gotten more units. It sounds like the site constraints make it pretty difficult. Um, like I said, I would like to see that area activated in
a way that might work with the utilities, throw a few picnic tables down, some bike racks. I don't know. Um, is there a bus stop in this vicinity? Would that be over there? or potentially could be over there if
there's two very large new buildings going. There is not right now as far as Yeah, there's one that's um down at the shopping center. Yeah. Well, and then and there is one just a little Yeah, there's one uh that's across the street and a little further into the
county. All right. Because the seven's only going up, right? Yeah. I just I just have a vision in in my head and and scooting past it, right? Because the seven terms don't pre- prior. Yeah, that's Yeah. Yeah, Mr. Chair, I have a motion ready when
you are ready. Um yeah, why don't you start with your your motion? Anyone else have any Okay. Having considered the standards set forth within the city code of the entrance corridor design guidelines, I move to find that the proposed redevelopment of 1185 seminal trail is
consistent with the guidelines and compatible with the goals of this entrance corridor and that the ERB approves the certificate of appropriateness application as submitted with the following conditions as listed in the packet. Additionally, I suggest uh new language. a pedestrian
walkway which will enable pedestrians to walk safely and conveniently from the site to the adjacent property to the north. Thank you, Al County, for the language. And and where are we going to put that? Or not not specified. Not specified.
Um how would a bicycle bicycle pedestrian pathway? I'm comfortable with that. Okay. To be located at the applicant's discretion. Okay. Um, and
are we allowed to add to this like without do we need to second it first or No, I mean you're aren't we completing this motion? As well as an additional uh suggested language from the chair. Okay. Um that at the um the Woodlook fiber cement panels um they will use a
product similar or equal to nitiha to be evaluated by staff. Say that one more time. Uh they'll use a product similar or equal to niha to be evaluated by staff. Um the goal being that it looks like
plank sighting and will be long lasting and durable. Um and that at the other fiber cement panels to use a um to use extruded metal joints um to minimize the appearance of the
joints. That it. I think that's it. Miss Greasie, do you have that? Okay. I think I'm seconding this. Um, Mr. Christie, can you uh call a
vote? Sure. [Applause] All right. Mr. Stolenberg. Hi Mr. Duranio. Hi Mr. Silates. Hi
Mr. Yoder. Yes, Mr. Roer. Yes. And Mr. Schwarz. Yes. That's it. All right. All right. Could just you know offer comment quickly if it would help. Um so
in the ordinance board of architectural review has to have a pre-application conference with uh a project of anything in excess of $300,000 or if it's a public project. there's no such provision for entrance
corridor and um it does leave me sometimes guessing a little bit at um and I it is like I don't know how far you all will go sometimes or I don't know and and so um I really I would like
to find a way for projects of this scale because I I think we are going to start to see more of them in the engine schools that we're able to come in and sort of have the BAR type of thing uh because I said a lot of what Mr. Schwarz raised I had also already told the the
applicant think about these questions but I just don't know when to tell them this is will be a question or that you all will require it. So could you suggest a preop conference and they decline?
Um we don't quite have a way to do it and I we've done it in the past. Yeah. I mean, we've done first looks and second looks and yeah, you suggest that it's just make the suggestion it would be a very good idea.
I I think it would be helpful. We'll troubleshoot that as staff to see if it makes sense. Um, again, this application itself um the iterations that Mr. Warner took the applicant through to what you all received um is a
very very different um uh application. And so there's a lot that we can do on our side to to work through those nuances um and limit a design off the day I guess situation.
Yeah. I mean yeah and I know I've said it before to you all. It's my relationship with you is very different from the B and I I it it's like I I wish we had there was some way I don't want to say gosh I wish
I brought you more stuff because the code's even allowing less things to possibly come to you but what when we have a project like this to try and anticipate what your questions might be um it puts me out on an island sometimes and and I I
need to you and I can certainly talk about it, but it is a uh you know uh it it it it's a gap that we should close if we really want to you know we're talking about making this process more predictive for the applicants. I I think
those um pre-application or some sort of preliminary discussion would really be helpful. So, but but thank you all. I'm not sure how to even I I I like what you all said about this one architecturally because it's like I don't know how do you there's nothing else out there. What am I what am I
evaluating this against? Uh I even asked the B last month, what do you guys think of vertical siding and very interesting response? They were very Yeah, we like it. It's contemporary. It's this. So, um All right. But thank you. Have a good evening. Thank you.
I think that's it for our agenda. So, do we have a motion to or um Miss Christie, do we have Oh, I guess yeah, we are uh no longer in the ECB. We're now in the planning commission. Um, do we have any reason to hold open our work session time this month?
Um, we will we are not scheduled for July, but stay tuned. Okay. For August. For August. Okay. Do we have a motion to adjurnn? Uh, Mr. Chair, I have a motion. Look, July 8th is a it is a fckened ground for
me to try to riff off of things. It is Eli Lily's birthday. It is John D. Rockefeller's birthday. It's Nelson Rockefeller's birthday. It is uh Von Zeppelin's birthday. We can talk about all of that. It is the anniversary of the Center in the Hands of God speech
in 1741 by uh Jonathan Edwards. But we've all kind of I mean, we've kind of been beat up the last two weeks. So, I'm going to leave you with this. Uh today is also in 1994 uh the day the space shuttle Columbia
lifted the mass the majority of the international space station into the sky in 2011 on this day was the last day with the flight of the Atlantis which was the last day of the shuttle program and it's also coincidentally the 78th
anniversary of the Roswell incident. So, in putting all of those together, you know, we've sort of been beat up and are looking at the ground. And I'd encourage us all to look up and be a little more optimistic. Add Astra Perispera uh for lack of a better expression. And
since it is National Ice Cream Sunday Day, that we all get some comfort from that and uh try to get our eyes up and adjourn. Second. Jeff, did you report this back?