probably >> have to look at. >> Yeah. Okay, that's it. Because I was trying to like catch all of us in there. I'm sure [snorts] that >> somebody else.
>> Yeah. Waiting on Mr. Brian and Dr. Dawson, can you hear us? Yeah, he said he's coming. >> Yeah, I can hear you. I can hear you. >> Okay, cool. You said you're coming though, right? >> I'm parking. >> Yeah. >> So, I should be there in a second, but I just want I I didn't want to hold
anybody up. parking right now. >> I have not. >> I asked um Mr. Lefave to get with you. I have my uh.gov email that feeds into my Outlook so I don't have to always
have I don't even have a city laptop. Yeah, you can >> help him get that set up if he brought his laptop on. >> Yeah, personal laptop. >> Yeah, you can do that. That's what Dr. Bows does, too. >> Yeah, it was just it was a pain in the neck to do it the other way. >> And and I'm worried about for you in terms of his
>> As long as you're staying inside that email environment, that's fine. >> Yeah, that's what I said. >> Said he has access. >> I don't want him to have access to his entire Gmail account. >> Yeah. >> [clears throat] >> We should be all here. Dr. D said he was parking. >> Okay, give me one minute.
>> Sign seats now. >> Well, that's generally where you sat, isn't it? Sort of. Maybe it was on the other side. I don't know. I think it's over here. Shaking up. [clears throat] >> Maybe I'll see things differently from here. Morning, Andrew.
>> Hey, how are you? >> I won't check your hair. I need my cold. [clears throat] >> Last thing I need is a cold. I just started my sabatical so I don't go back to work until February 5th. Good plan.
>> Got some stuff to do with my parents that is necessary. No, they're in Northern Virginia. [clears throat] >> 90ish. 90ish. >> Been there, done that. end of the year. >> But I'm [clears throat] planning on organizing some at least day trips
perhaps overnights with my wife. >> Got some friends around do stuff. >> Yeah. I'm sure you learned it. >> I hope I have [clears throat]
James. It look like >> it did. It's a different day than it normally is. I think it's a Tuesday now. >> Is that a permanent change? >> I don't know. >> Tuesday the 12th. >> Yeah. I don't think it's a permanent change, but that's a good question. Do you know? No, it's not.
>> It's just for the >> Okay. Just for I'm like wondering and then I'm like, "Oh, wait. You would [laughter] know." >> Think I can do the >> Okay. That's right. cuz you weren't able to come to the the one before.
[snorts] >> I don't think so. [clears throat] He should be like walking up. [clears throat] >> Well, we started a few minutes after before. >> He was parking. Yeah, he's he's [snorts]
>> next month we'll have eight people. >> Yeah, we're gonna have the two new members. >> I assume we will. I mean, from everything I've been told, >> reconfigure our table. >> Yeah, >> we'll cease being our table's getting bigger, but now we need to start filling this in.
>> I know we had a couple people here last time, but we'll cease being the old boys club. Yeah, we need we need >> your seat. [clears throat] Dr. Johnson and myself will still be broken. >> We'll get you broken in.
>> Well, we've been here less than a year. >> I'll be. >> All right. >> All right. Um, good evening everyone. Um, Jeff Razer. the chair of the Crossville Civilian Police Oversight Board and I want to call this meeting of
the oversight board uh to order. It's Thursday, January the 8th at about 6:33 and Mr. Walker, would you please call the role? >> Sure. Um yeah, if you could just say here even though I know you're here, but Mr. Dillard
>> here, uh Mr. Lefave here, >> Dr. Dobson here, >> Dr. Frasier here, >> Mr. Fry here, and Mr. you all. Let's appreciate you being here. The PCB will uh I just want to say a little bit about the format. We follow
the rules uh which are on the back of the agenda if you want to refer to them. We want to adhere to respectful conduct. Meet other attendants with treat other attendees with courtesy. Listen actively, avoid interruptions, and refrain from inflammatory or personal
attacks. for the public comment section for which there'll be two opportunities. Please wait. We have the timer tonight. >> I didn't bring it out but I I will keep if there is a monitor going forward. Yes. >> Three minute time limit for individual
comments whether in person or online and any participants are welcome to speak during both public comments if they wish. When you speak, please clearly state your name, your organization affiliation, if there is one, and whether you're a resident of the city of Charlottesville, Alamar County, or
another jurisdiction during public comment. The board will not be entered into dialogue. It's not an opportunity for discussion. The board will listen to comments. If there are specific questions, we'd ask the participant to please submit them in writing and we will respond, but this is not a form for
that to occur. Um is can I get a motion uh to approve or amend the agenda for this evening? Moved >> second. >> All in favor signify by saying I. I.
>> Can I also get a um motion to approve the minutes from the December meeting? >> Second. >> All in favor? Does anyone have announcements? I have a couple, but uh >> you you go ahead and go first. I just put what I had on there.
>> Okay. Um I want to welcome uh Lieutenant Jacob Vio. If you're joining us tonight from the Charlottville Police Department, he is the head of internal affairs and he will have an opportunity to share with us some perspective and answer any of our questions. Thank you for being here, Dr. P. Lieutenant.
>> Thanks for having me. And I also want to um express my appreciation to the city attorney's office, Mr. Maddox, the city attorney, and Miss Wimberly, one of the um deputy attorneys who um have completed the vetting process and given
us three names, three candidates for possible um outside counsel for the PCOB. Mr. uh Walker and I will be meeting with them in the next couple weeks and bringing a recommendation back to the board. Um I won't mention their names because um
only one of them will be asked to assume a position, but they've been fully vetted by the city attorney and approved and it's just up to us now to to pick a candidate at which point we'll have an outside council. One word about that is any matters which don't involve any um
areas of contention with the city will still be handled by the city attorney's office. But if there are issues in which our position is in opposition to that of the city, then they would represent us in those matters. Any questions about
the outside council appointment? >> All right. So the other um does any any other board members have anything they want to announce mention or >> were you going to mention about the two new me potential members? >> Sure I can I can update on that. So the
expectation is for city council they have three um there was like five applicants during the last period but three [snorts] of them are eligible and have been selected to be interviewed by city council. I believe they're doing that later this month so they would join us for the February meeting. Um, and
that will fill our last two positions. Um, and so that's that's a good sign. That's that will have a full eight eight member board, which we have not had in quite some time. Um, I did have on here that the next comstat is is a different day than of the week than it normally
is, Tuesday, January 27th. Um, trying to always invite at least one board member to join. So, if you have interest and can can be available that date. I know, uh, Mr. Fry, you had expressed some interest to me already from a prior time. So, >> just let me be clear. It's at 9:15 in
the morning in this room, >> correct? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yep. Um, and so you can just let me know, but I'm kind of giving first dibs to you since if it works. [clears throat and cough] >> I don't recall any obstacles. I believe I should be able to be here.
>> Okay. And then the uh the March PCOB meeting, one of the, you know, we've always been kicked into uh neighborhood development services, which is over in the main hall, and it's a tiny room. Um going forward, and I need to verify with uh communications team that they can handle
it downstairs, but parks and Rex has a room that's basically right below this. Um pretty decent size conference room, nowhere near this big, but it's it's a good setup. Uh easier to access for people, bigger space for us. So March we will be down there because they will be doing some budget stuff. Uh it's budget
season for the city. They'll be using the space throughout the day. So kind of >> is that just when this room is unavailable? Correct. Walk. >> This will always be our normal meeting space, but if we get bumped out of here because something else going on, it we'll just go downstairs and that room is almost always open. It's easier for the public to get into things like that.
So >> entrance for that. >> The entrance is down the stairs right there. Right. >> It's in the bottom of the well. Okay. >> Try if you you'll see the door. It says parks and wreck. When you go in, it's a hard right and down the hall, you run right into it. >> Okay. You can't go anywhere else because
there's a secondary locked door inside. So, there's only one way to go when you go in there, which is good for public participation, too, versus like over at NDS, it's kind of opens into the whole building. >> I got some negative feedback last week. >> Yeah, was not ideal. >> Not ideal. It's Yeah. And I I understand
it's it's kind of a more internal in the building. So, this will help us out some. Um, and then one thing I wanted to mention is there is a city budget forum next week and I will be attending two of the nights, three nights of city budget uh forum. It's in the evenings. It's at three different locations. I think the
first night is here and then it I believe it's at the Jefferson School. I don't really remember exact. Do you do you know where the second night is, Caroline? For the um for the budget sessions next week, the Wednesday night. >> The second night is in the cafeteria at
Walker Upper Elementary. >> Walker Elementary. That's right. And then the third night is at the middle school, I believe. >> Yes. [snorts] >> So, I'll be doing two of those nights just at the the city represents. They have different tables set up. So, there's like a public safety table. So, I'll [clears throat] be there with some other uh people from other departments
that are public safety related. It's just to give an opportunity for the community to demonstrate um where they want their dollars going. Gives me an opportunity to just have conversations about the PCO and the budget and stuff like that, too. So, if you want to swing by, they're uh they sent out a news alert about that or I can give you
information about each night. Um, just wanted to mention it so we can move on to >> I had a quick question for you. Uh, Mr. Walker, I had an email this afternoon from Mr. Steven King is who's the new assistant to the city manager
>> and I wasn't clear in terms of our um the chain of command there. Are we still in under Miss Marshall's wing or are we moving to Mr. Kings. >> So, Miss Marshall is underneath that that role, Mr. King's role. So, his his role
>> or part of his role is definitely uh liaison to the boards and commissions. So, okay. >> There's quite a few boards and commissions and I know one of his objectives um probably in the emails stating trying to meet the chairs. Yes. >> And starting to engage with the boards and commissions now that he's been here a couple months. >> Okay.
>> Um and so, yeah, that's a good opportunity to to have that conversation with him. And so, he he's he's directly underneath uh city manager. >> Okay. So, I'll responded to him and we'll see if we can get together oneonone and then he's going to be attending one of our board meetings
coming months. >> Great. All right. >> Um, anything else for you to public comment you want? >> I don't think I have anything else. Just as I know some of you talked to me about the parking garage because there's been changes to it, but if you need to get some more details or figure out the
parking garage, let me know and we [snorts] can I can make sure I help you with that. What's the deal with the park ride? >> Well, well, they they changed out the uh system to where it reads your license plate when you go come and go. So, it's no longer a ticket. So, like it just opened when you came in.
>> I didn't I didn't park. I did. >> Oh, you didn't park? Okay. Well, if you do it, it just opens. It reads your plate and then when you leave, what I can do, I have a I have a specific way to validate to the PCO. So, I can just either put in your plate or if you have the app, there's a QR code to scan. Um,
so I was trying to slowly collect license plates so I can put them in. Um, >> you have every once Mr. Dillard, have you give can you give Mr. Walker license? >> I still we can do that outside the public session obviously, but I've got a couple people's or some people have the app and can just scan the code. But um,
that's something we can do. Yeah, >> I'm glad you brought that up because >> Well, if you're ever down here and you can find me, then I can validate your part [clears throat] and we'll have a official PCO conversation as part of that. But so, um, yeah, we can move on to the public
comment. I, as you see, I put Lieutenant Baya in that slot because I, as you can see, there's not a lot of public, uh, attendance right now, unfortunately. >> Caroline, is anyone online? >> Anyone want to any hands raised? >> I don't know how they normally indicate.
Um, if they want to comment, >> we'll use the raised Well, we have a second opportunity. So, >> at the end, we gonna um Is this a time for the some discussion with Lieutenant Bay? >> Yep. >> Okay. >> And you're free. I don't know if you want to. Yeah. This will be easier.
>> You want to sit? Yeah. It's We're trying to keep it casual. Yeah. >> Welcome again. >> Yes. Thank you. >> Appreciate you joining us. Do you want to just I guess introduce yourself and say kind of whatever you thought and then hopefully we got some
questions maybe from board members. >> Sure. Sure. >> Um so my name is Lieutenant Jake Vaia. Um I have been in uh this position in charge of IIA for two years now starting a third. Um in my office um I do have a sergeant that works with me. Um and so
we're tasked with investigating citizen complaints and anything that comes from an internal investigation. Um and then we um have a division commander who is a captain um who oversees not only us but um hiring, training, recruiting in the
department. >> Uh I was just curious the um I'm Kyle. Oh yeah, you have my >> Yes. [laughter] Uh so um I was curious the there's some movement around with roles, right? That's happening. >> Correct. >> Okay.
>> Correct. >> Um who's who's the captain? that's uh supervising now. >> Tony Newberry. >> Tony Newberry. Got it. Yes. >> And then u and the sergeant. I was just curious. >> That's uh Russell Handy. >> Yes. He came from they both actually
both came from our general investigations bureau. >> Is he new to you, Lieutenant Via? Sergeant Handy. I mean new to IA. >> Yes. He came uh November 1st. >> Okay. >> Replace Sergeant. >> Yeah, that's what I was curious. Yeah.
>> Flying solo for a bit there. Yes. Yes. >> Yeah. And I was also just curious just the the kind of philosophy of of moving folks around when it comes to on the IIA stuff. Um or even just kind of openly your perspective if you feel like it's good to get folks out of there in that
role because I know it's a it's probably a pretty tough um spot to be in for a long time. Uh so uh I I was just curious your your kind of perspective on >> Yeah. You know, it's it really kind of depends on [clears throat] who's in charge of the department um on
on how movements are. Um in the past, if you were you were put somewhere, you were pretty much there forever, right? >> Um I think Chief Cautious has a different view that he likes to put um a supervisor on a role for a couple years
and then put him somewhere else >> just to bring different perspectives, different leadership styles. Um and so that's kind of what's going on now at the captain's the captain's moved. Um
internal affairs is a little bit different. Um you know he picks someone for that role. Um and he's very uh particular about who he puts in internal affairs.
>> Yeah. you do have to have that mindset that you know you are investigating your fellow officers which is which is tough. Um and so yeah so he's very deliberate with what who he puts in this position. >> Someone who can who can handle that role
and the kind of resilience that he needs to >> correct to do. >> Correct. >> Um sorry for taking up all the space y'all. I'm just >> Please this is why we have him here. Please. >> Yeah, I can I can ask questions for days, but uh I I'll try to to wrap up. Um then the other thought that I have I
think I think it's really interesting the way Charlott School Police is [snorts] uh structured where um training and IA are kind of under the same supervisor. So that that uh new person in the role. Um uh and I was kind of curious your sort of perspective or
philosophy when it comes to that. And again, since this is, you know, uh, technically, you know, recorded for the public, I think the public might appreciate that education of the way Charlottesville is kind of structured because I I think it actually is is is quite smart in the way that it's not
just uh internal affairs over there away from everything. It's actually kind of meant it seems like meant to be paired with training [cough and clears throat] in in education in a way of saying look here's the some of the challenges you're facing you know uh and here's what we
can do to help you out right to get better >> right and I think that's why it was all housed together under the professional standards division >> IA used to be you know its own thing >> and now if we've investigated a citizen
complaint or internal investigation and it's minor, we have access to the training unit since they're in our division to say, "Hey, look, we have seen these training failures >> um which has resulted in this complaint
and so they know exactly what they need to >> y >> train that officer on and it could be um a broader training issue." >> Um so it's good that we are housed together and I think that was the purpose of putting us together. >> Thank you. Appreciate it. Anybody
else? But there's kind of all the seasons into a question I have which is um do you you know there a small group of you do you um track data on complaints you know location of incident time of day demographic information that
sort of thing or are you solely focused on individual incidents investigations? So we are focused on solely the incident. Now we collect everything the date where it's happening. Um and I think that it was um
and of course I update James with with all of that information. I think last year in their report um the PCOB report they were putting they were doing kind of more of that data uh stuff that you know what is IA seeing? how long is it actually taking
us to investigate a case? Um, and demographics and stuff like that. So, my division, my unit doesn't specifically do that, but we do collect it. >> We're just not necessarily analyzing. >> So, [clears throat]
are you feeding that to the training that is also under the profession? And that's I think I think something that the board could look at and and we could look at more specifically from a broad narrative. In the report from 2024, what we did was have just the number of
cases, what dates they occurred on, when they were like opened and closed, so you could see a timeline, and then just the allegations that were in those cases, and how they ended up, what was the final result. So what's missing from that is demographic data um and some of those other additional like location
geographical location but at a broad level that I mean we could do that that's something that that data we could bring together as an aggregate and look at those trends um I think that's that's worth doing uh in the future. So um but
it hasn't been done to my knowledge yet by either >> but we well we can do it like if that's something that you know we want to partner up in >> I think it would be useful but also useful in the terms of something we could have share with the public because we're tracking this and this and this
and this is the pattern that we're seeing >> and I think help people in the public have a better idea of what the committee we're doing. >> Sure. >> Good point. I know. Um I I'll just speak to like one of the process
things that happens is if someone comes to the PCOB to do a complaint, whether they submit it online or they just reach out to the office, um I forward that. I collect as much information as I can on my end, document it, and then I share all that with Lieutenant Vaia who then opens a case in within internal affairs
and just keep updated on the status of that. Um, oftentimes I'll attend the interview related to uh really it could be any case but I try to really go to the ones that came in through the PCO um and I try to stay in contact with that complainant. Now one thing is [clears throat]
a lot of that demographic data is self-reported. So at times you know a person may not want to report that level of data and that's something that we have to accept and understand. Um, and sometimes [snorts] you guys have a little bit more of that than I do because of the original incident that
occurred that data was being tracked in a different format, the police report or something versus PCO in our intake, they don't I can't force them to tell us that stuff necessarily. And it's not always the best thing to assume >> what someone's demographics and things
like that are. >> Um, typically though, they do provide their address. um they might often [clears throat] provide gender uh race. So those those options are on there uh on the complaint form. >> I want to just clarify one thing or make sure I've got this right. Lieutenant
Excuse me. There's sort of three pipelines into your office. One is through our office. One is from the public directly to you. But importantly, and this is somewhat unique I think not have had not been historically the case. officers can make complaints against federal officers and that represents a
sizable chunk of your business, does it not? >> Correct. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, >> so there's accountability really built in >> peer accountability which is somewhat unique in terms of the culture as I understand it. But >> Correct. Correct. And and I think when I took over the beginning of 24
um either they were coming in um a citizen go on our website and the citizen complaint form is on there and fill it out. It's the same form they would get if they came to the police department and asked for a complaint form. They submit it and then it comes directly to
my email and then I open a case based on that. And I've had them where they'll submit them through your portal, right? and then James will forward them to me and then I open a case based on that. Um, we can take complaints, it doesn't have to be those two ways from a
citizen. They can email us directly, they could call. Um, my number is on there. They can do it over the phone. They can send an email. They could write a letter. [clears throat] We take any type of complaint any way someone wants to go. So, it doesn't have to be certain
ways. Um but yes, so there is a mechanism if there is an what we call an internal investigation which means it's coming from inside the police department and it does necessarily have to be an officer that is complaining another officer. It
could be a supervisor that notices repeated policy violations and sends a memo to the chief and then the chief says I want an investigation on that. Everything internal has to come from the chief. >> Okay? So, I can't have an officer come
to me and and say, "I want to make this complaint." I would take it to the chief who would then >> direct an investigation into that. >> Just ask a clarifying [clears throat] multiple policy violations. Could that
be not against not not an individual per se, but across the department, the same policy is being violated by multiple different officers and therefore we have some structural problem and that would go to your desk as well. So that that can happen. It necessarily wouldn't come
to me unless the chief is directing me to open an internal investigation into that. Um it could be that if we're getting multiple p policy violations across the board, it could be something that the chief is going to issue a department directive or update a
policy. So that kind of corrects whatever that problem is. >> If the chief if the chief knows what the problem is, >> correct? But correct. >> Correct. But if it for some reason, let's say they just come to me with the with these problems, what then I would
do is I would take them to the chief and then we would discuss this is what's brought to me and then it's his decision whether an investigation is opened or it's handled a different way. >> I think it's also important to note that we also have that kind of input. We could come to the chief and say, you know, we're getting feedback about this
policy of stop and frisk or whatever it might be. and he he's been open to that. I mean he would he would hear our concerns and then the proc that the process would unfold from there in terms of looking at larger more systemic issues. >> Correct. >> Just want to follow back what what I was
asking about this kind of like systemic issue potentially. Is there you're saying I you would open investigation is there a difference between investigation and just pure analysis? So if there you know if the supervisor in our theoretical situation has noticed policy
violations being repeated by multiple officers um they would bring to the chief say we have this policy being violated >> and if and the chief to understand what was going on
would his avenue if he didn't you know if he didn't know what was going on precisely but knew that this problem needed to be fixed in some systemic Would he have to go to you and you would analyze it or are there other avenues for sort of analysis that aren't
necessarily investigation like one of >> correct? Yeah, there there are other definition. >> Sure. There are other avenues as well. Let's say if it's >> if he's see there's these issues that could be addressed with a change in policy. So then you bring the command staff and and the policy makers. uh we
have a chief's advisory board who's made up of officers that can you know and he cons would consult all of them and it it could be our policy is out of date maybe it's not the best practice maybe we need to update our policy there are other avenues that that we can go than the
specific internal affairs investigation >> skill sets correct >> there could be minor policy violations that could be handled within the shift let's say someone's has a problem coming into work on time they're Right? You could hand a shift supervisor could
handle that with a coaching memo or some type of verbal, hey, now if it continues, it then could go to the next category in our disciplinary matrix, which would then start at a written reprimand, which they call that a
category B. If it's category B, then it could potentially come to my office. So if it's a repeated issue and they've been coached and they've been counseledled and they've been you know there's been documented verbal counseling and the problems continue it
could the discipline area um action could escalate and if that happens then it would come to me. >> There's a question on that one. >> Why would that fall on I I >> if they a discipended thing that should
came on the supervisor. Mhm. >> So, why would it go to IIA? >> Right. So, it's it would start at the supervisory [clears throat] level like on their shift. So, that's the lowest which is what we call category A which is a coaching counseling. Um if someone
is coming into work later say someone's missing court, the supervisor can handle it on their on their shift. you know, they can counsel them saying, "Hey, you know, the policy says you will be in court when you're subpoenaed and we've noticed that you haven't been coming to
court." So, we've now told you, this is your counsel. If it happens again, then let's say the same officer has the next month doesn't go to court, then the supervisor can handle it. Hey, we've already had
this counseling. We're now going to make it a documented counseling. So now you've had two warnings. Say [snorts] it happens again. Obviously there's some issue there, right? Since there's been two counselings in
the category A, the next violation would bump it up to a category B, which now you're getting a written reprimand. So now you're enhancing the discipline. When it starts getting to a B or above, then it would be forwarded to our office. And then we would do a kind of a
deeper [clears throat] dive in is not necessarily that we're going to discipline someone, but what is the issue? You know, why is this person not showing up to court or what is the cause of this repeated problem? [snorts] [clears throat] >> And I can think of a couple reasons why
that might be, but why why would that wait for three instances of >> and and it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be three instances. um and and stuff like that that's minor is usually handled at the shift level, the shift
supervisors are usually getting to the root of that problem. Um but if it continues to escalate or the problems can continue um then it could come. It doesn't necessarily mean we have to take
everything that's a B again. It's an internal issue. So it's at the direction of the chief. >> I wanted to just respond to Mr. Vaughn and uh to your question which I thought was a good one is if you can attend one
of the future const meetings the monthly ones. I think you'll be impressed as I was when I attended two months ago with the depth of the data and how far down in the weeds they get with the data. I had no idea that that level of Mr. Walker can certainly speak to this more eloquently, but no idea that the degree
of of you know the amount of data that's collected on a vast number of of parameters. Mr. Walker, would you add anything to that? >> I mean, this this is where we get back to the conversation. There's a lot of data in a lot of places. One of the um
the systems that was being talked about was paragrin which is is not something that's as far as I understand not moved forward with anything but the goal of that was to bring data from a variety of sources together in one place. So it you know data analysis is always dependent
on how easy is it to access the data. What format is it in? Is it on you know older stuff might be just on paper. >> Um and how [clears throat] easy is it to kind of privatize it so that you're not giving you're not analyzing data based on specific identifiers of officers or
or um residents complaints all that kind of stuff. So it's a heavy it can be a heavy load and that's why it's best to do targeted. we're looking for like at this specific thing. Yeah. During this time, >> let's pull these what kind of data do we want to pull and then what is that what what are we trying to learn from that? I
think that's the key because that's going to guide that process. Um yeah, I I love data. That's that's my background. But it it is a messy it can be a messy thing um and difficult to to manage. So [clears throat] that's kind of originally why this this
uh management analyst position was created to begin with on the with the office. >> Yes sir. >> If we were [clears throat] curious to see the disciplinary matrix just so I'd have a better frame of reference, where would I find it?
>> It um so on our website um we have policies, procedures, general orders that are on there. Um it I'm not sure what all policies have are have been released on there. They do
withhold some that are could be policies that guy like how to do a tactical plan or something like that that we necessarily want to give the public. But most of the general order orders, policies, procedures, I'm
pretty sure the internal affairs and discipline policy is in there. Um so the public can go and kind of see how the process works. Um but the the disciplinary matrix is is out there. Okay. >> And so like I said, it ranges from an um
A to an F. Of course, F is the worst, you know, you know, termination. And then in the policy, it outlines all the violations. And then it will show where does it range in that matrix. And then that's what the chief has to go off of
when he needs to make a disciplinary finding. He has to go by that matrix. And so it's all laid out. So if >> for some reason Yeah. If for some reason that one is not on the public website,
um we can get it to Okay. So you can kind of see it. >> I and I can email those to you as well because I have a internal login to access the policies too. So I'm happy to send any policy from the department that you're interested in. >> Other questions?
You have any questions for us, Lieutenant B? >> Uh, no. I'm just glad to see that you've got your board up and running and >> we are too. >> Actually, I have a question on that. So, do you feel like uh what are what would you say is the sort of what would you say is like success from your perspective kind of outside of
necessarily just your role but can using using some of your um understanding of what the role of the board can be and and what you know you're hoping to do in in your role you know how you see us working together well >> yeah and I think you know
since the board's being fair I know Dr. has been on there just there's been a lot of change and there's not been a lot of direction and you know what's going on. Um, and when when the board was first created, I was in the, you know, as many other officers are, you know,
>> we have there are going to be people who have no police knowledge. >> Yeah. >> Judging what I do, >> right? >> That is the first thing when you hear a PCO that pops into officers minds. Um, now that I've been in this position and I work with Miss Gonzalez, I've worked
with James and work with Dr. Frasier a lot. Um, I see that it's beneficial that we can work together that we don't have to be on opposite sides. >> Um, I think it's good that when when James shows up to the to our interviews
and he watches. Um, and I think it just shows that we're being transparent on our part that, you know, we're doing our jobs correctly. Um, when I talk to community members, the first thing they say is, "Well, I don't necessar I don't want to make a complaint because I don't trust the
police to investigate themselves." That's the biggest complaint that I hear and why people are hesitant to file a complaint in the first place >> because they feel that I'm going to be >> impartial or more biased to an officer because that's who I am. I think having
the board who would have that option to look through a case and see what all was done and could then tell the public in the community no the off internal affairs is operating fair and impartial and yes if you do
have a matter of concern of service that you've received from us feel comfortable filing a complaint. >> Question for you Lieutenant. Yes, sir. Um, if a person come to you with a complaint and let's say they don't have enough
education for writing out anything, will you sit down and listen to them? >> Yes, we will take it any way we can get it. >> So, let's say someone isn't able to write it, they don't have access to email or anything like that, but they want to make a complaint. I will meet them in person and we will talk about
whatever their complaint is. And then based on that conversation, I will document what was said and then I'll open an investigation based on that. So it doesn't have to be always in writing. >> We've done that through our office too where someone >> My other question is uh to you and it's
not nothing personal [clears throat] whatever. Um how long have you been in this position? >> So I just started my third year in this position >> as I >> as internal affairs. >> I'm sorry. Thank you. >> I'm sorry, George. You I didn't mean to
interrupt you. >> No, I'm done. Okay, I'm good. I'm done. >> If someone comes in to Mr. Dillard's example, um >> you still need adequate information to >> pin down who, what, and where.
>> Correct. Okay. And I think that's that's where I think an in-person meeting is good because I can ask questions >> daytime >> to try to figure it out and then I'll have access to, of course, you [clears throat] know, which we've given
James access to all the incidents, all the reports, all the body cam. So someone's like, >> I think it was last Tuesday or Wednesday at 900 p.m. I can always narrow that down to try to figure it out. So, and that's online. You have access to that.
You pull it up. >> Okay. Great. >> So, are cases dropping between the cracks because you can't identify the necessary? >> Um, since I've been there, anything any citizen complaint that has been brought
either to me or to the PCOB has always we were able to find the incident and able to investigate. >> Sure. Yeah, >> usually if we have some type of time frame, we're able to narrow it
narrow it down. >> Um, yeah, and and perhaps this is just a discussion to have offline, but it's just I'm I'm thinking out loud a little bit here. um dangerous. But uh I was [clears throat and cough] I'm thinking
about um you know the challenge that you brought up earlier of people who don't want to talk to the police about their conflicts with police >> and um with you very clearly being police and them, you know, even if you
are going to go meet with them in person and talk to them, I could find that I I'm assuming that they would find that perhaps threatening or they might not be as open. Mhm. >> Um, and I know you you probably had anticipated that. Um, but then to think about, okay, well, that's where it's
probably important to have whether it's civilian employees, nonsworn folks within your unit, that might be a good way to to utilize that given that it doesn't sound like that that is what Charlottesville has. Um, I'm curious it and but we do have this
board, but also then the catch 22 of what you mentioned earlier of CPD and a lot of sworn folks don't really want the nonsworn to judge them in their behavior. So, I'm I'm trying to figure that puzzle out, but I recognize
especially as as board as this board rep, you know, what we represent and what we're trying to do, trying to figure out an appropriate process for potentially being able to do something like that. >> Sure. >> And still get that information to you where you would love to have that
information, right? >> And we will take >> Yeah, we take third party >> complaints. So, let's say someone was comfortable talking to Mr. Dillard >> about it. I I don't really want to go down to the police department or I don't want to meet with IIA, >> but I do have this concern. I'd like to
be investigated. They could talk to Mr. Dillard and he could provide me that information. I can open a case based on that third party as well. >> And not because he's on the board. He just because he's >> it could be anybody. It could be any citizen >> I think that has that. Um
>> and I guess for Oh, >> well, I'm listening what you're saying about the third party thing. How well have that worked in the past with you? >> Um, I've had I think we actually had one that was on the law earlier this year that was that was a third party. >> That's the one that I was going to slate
to for the board to review. >> Yeah. >> And Yeah. So, so you so it's you would interview that complainant, you know, the third party, you know, what did what were you told? You know, what matter? They may not even know that person. Maybe they just witness them. You know,
we'll [snorts] still investigate it. So, >> I'm just um I shouldn't say this, but I am, but I um I'm just speak I'm speaking from experience. >> Me to you, right? Just speaking from experience, but uh uh I've been down
your road before, so I I know what you're going through. >> Okay. >> Oh, yeah. >> All right. >> It It took some getting used to. >> Oh, yeah. It's going to take a little while to get used to. >> Okay. [laughter] >> It's a It's a different It's a different [clears throat]
It's a position that I didn't see myself doing. >> Okay. Um, [snorts] I think one of the uh one of the add-on benefits of of currently what the PCOB office is doing is oftentimes the what the complaints that we receive sometimes they come in
directly through us uh the email or online but often times someone will call up to the city manager's office and they're looking for someone other than the the police to complain to and they will forward the call to me and I will collect as much information as possible on the phone with them. If someone were to show up at the office door and come
in, I collect all that information. So, it's not the police taking the the facts or the details that that complainant is sharing. I'm asking questions. I'm trying to collect as much as I can and then I can share it over to internal affairs. >> Um, so it's it's someone other than the
police is collecting that information, asking the questions, trying to to get as much detail as possible. >> Yeah. So, I guess the the reason I'm talking about this and I'm thinking creatively is because I see this as a challenge. I'm I'm taking myself out of it. I'm taking all of us in the room out of it and thinking of it as a system
that that could work well or not. And from my perspective, there's going to be the public who is going to be very they're going to be displeased with honestly I'm sure a lot of folks from within government having to be the people that they have to talk to to complain about the police. And you know,
so honestly, I'm sure James, you're probably going to have to deal with the same thing of people don't want to talk to you either. They think you are an extension of the police or >> that absolutely happens. And and so I'm I'm only saying all that to say I I wonder if that that is something that we
should start to consider as a board of a process such that we can even give people who might not have the ability to to kind of speak their mind or the faculty mental faculties to uh to really express the challenges that they're going through to to give them some sort
of system that makes them feel heard and understood and it can funnel to to James so that we can then get it as board. Whether it's us as a board being that, I don't know. But I I just wonder if that's something that we should put on our radar as of an idea because again,
and taking it off of yours to say, "No, look, talk that that's something the police civilian oversight board is doing that they're really gathering a group of community members, like maybe even licensed professionals who are volunteering their time to talk to you, hear your complaints, and then I'm going
to hear them as cohesively as possible." >> You know, Dr. Johnson, such a good point. And and one of my goals for the new year for us is partly to respond to that is to um improve our uh
visibility in the community because I still run into people that think the PCO is the police. You know, I hear it all the time and you know, I want to put some daylight in there. As much as I appreciate the accessibility and the working arrangements, we still need some daylight between us.
>> Sure. And as we go into the neighborhood associations and do more outreach, the message has to be to what you're speaking to, Kyle, which is >> here we are. This is what we do. We're the voice, the eyes, and the ears of the community. We represent you when you have concerns, whether they're
individual cases, whether they're policy concerns or whatever. Bring them to us. That's what we're here for. And um that's that to me is very high priority for 2026 going forward as as this new board has come together and is attempting something of a
>> reboot. Can I just say something on one on that note? >> Yes, please. >> We got a long way to go. >> Oh, amen. >> Listen here. >> We got a long way to go. We got a lot of people that >> don't believe that. >> Look at this room right here. I know.
you know, and and that's the discussion we had earlier >> today, James and and myself, that um >> and thank you for that. >> We got to get to working in this community with these with these people to all get to earn their trust back. You know, it's just >> you're you're you're dead on and
>> it's it's a lot of work we got to do. And I've been on this board for four years. So I uh I know >> and I've been on this board for six years and I'm telling you woefully inadequate in that >> and that's why I say it's my number one priority for the new year because
>> been my priority for this board. >> We've got work to do and it's it's got to be all of us out there boots on the ground talking to people engaging with people and I don't mean just the leadership in the community the the usual suspects I mean the rank and file the citizenry they need to know who we
are and what we do. you do have a lot of citizens out there with a lot of concerns and then >> um trust and believe me and I've been in that position longer than you ever have been and all but let me tell you something that those folks out
there sometimes sell can sell a lot of things for you when you out there working >> on the streets find out things and um >> um it used to be I I I'll take back in the old days keep a piece of pepman in your pocket here's piece of pepp.
But man, you can't do that. You can't do that. But uh >> um yeah, and far as your job go uh goes, um it'll be a whole lot easier too even working with your your officers
and all. And I know again I say being in your position and working against your on your office doing your investigations, you know, my hat goes off to you. >> Oh, I appreciate that. >> So, uh, but yeah, [cough and clears throat] what we need to do, >> you know, and it all starts right in
here. Start start kicking kicking it off. >> Yeah. I just appreciate the working relationship, you know, that that we have. Hope we can continue continue that and I understand the you know where there need there needs to be you know some separation you know and all that but
>> it need not be adversarial I mean it need not be contentious >> and one thing that and one thing that we've been doing is when um we have officers who finish the their police academy they go into a post academy training that we put on for a few weeks and then I'm given a block where I talk
about internal affairs and what's going to happen when you get that complaint because it's going to happen [clears throat] >> sometime in your career, >> it's going to happen. >> So that's inside your department after they come out the academy. >> Yeah, I do I do a a block on on how how
does internal affairs work. So if someone complains on you and I, you know, have my PowerPoint, I show them you're going to get this letter from me and this letter is going to sound really serious and you going to feel like your career is over. >> Um you know, just kind of so when they do get it, they're aware of what our
process is. Mhm. >> Let me ask you a quick question on that. Have you ever when you when you um have your clients after they come out the academy, do uh their code of ethics, do you ever ask them about that code of ethics
>> and they and they can do it without looking at the paper? >> Well, and we don't res we don't have them recite it. We do we we do include the ethics in the in the presentation >> but that should be a thing that they
that's the main thing in that whole what six weeks how long is it now academy six eight weeks >> the police academy it's 22 >> 22 weeks now >> yeah that was my main thing I had to learn when I was in academy and I can remember it
>> yeah man remember at my graduation you had to recite it you know that was part of the graduation But we do we do know and [clears throat] I've been inviting James to those as well so he can say this is what the PCO is because like I said a lot of young
officers what they see online is negative PCOB you know um now granted this board is different from PCO in Chicago for example or whatever but that's what you see and you know they've
I've heard it like I can get on my social media and I can see you know the negative about PCO. So I think having James come explain how PCOB works and let them ask questions and say you know is it not an adversarial relationship
um it's it's a working relationship which has been good. So >> to try to >> sorry you know you're fine just try you know try to give them the full understanding of what the PCO does and who they are you know
I think it actually be an asset. People on the PCOB are volunteers and city employees. >> Yeah. >> Can make us more approachable, I think. >> And more daylight, too, Andrew. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, I'm not a risk of getting
written up or fired for making noise about something that some brings to me. >> That's right. >> That's great. >> So, that mean y'all going to get out and be a ride along? >> Already did one. Me too.
>> My third one coming up. >> Cool dinner. >> Yep. >> Are my breakfast, lunch, and dinner. >> They are so instructive. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You can learn a lot. >> All right. Well, we won't keep you. We appreciate you coming. Thanks for inviting. >> Oh, yes. What happens if you have
somebody who has a mental illness that may be delusional and may be reporting something that you know could possibly >> be reality? Um, so we don't automatically discard someone's complaint
just because they have a mental illness or a history of mental illness. You know, I they can still come into my office and explain what their complaint is. Um, I'm not listening just to get them out of there
because they have a mental illness. I actually take the complaint and then um as part of my investigation, look, you know, is there evidence to back that up? And if there is evidence to back it up,
then I've got a case. [cough] Um but if [snorts] there is no evidence to back it up and we can say yeah it was that we still document it um of the interaction but we don't open an investigation unless we're able to have some type of
of evidence that it occurred. >> But Jake, I would also add that if they persist u we have an anchor team we can refer them to. >> That's correct. >> Does everyone know about the anchor team? The mental health team you want to >> Yeah. So, um, the anchor team, it's a
mental health co-response. So, there's two officers on a region 10, fire, EMS, and, um, they all they all work together. So, if a call comes in where it's someone who is in a mental crisis instead of an officer being dispatched,
this team will go um, and the point is to try to get the mental help that they or services that they need. And it's good to have region 10 there and fire an EMS, you know, had they hurt themselves. If they have, you know, they can provide that the we're
pretty much the officers who work that are more just to keep the scene safe kind of more as security. Um, but if someone was to come to my office and, you know, is maybe is being delusional
and is telling telling me something, of course I'm going to document it. I can't find any evidence to support that. I can notify the anchor [clears throat] team of this. Hey, someone came into my office. They may need some services and then the anchor can go out and talk to
that person. And that can come and that can the anchor response can come from anybody. [snorts] >> Can that happen pretty quickly? >> And that's new to this department. That's new under this chief and it's uh it's it's a really good program. I met
with him before the holidays and and got an overview and I'm going to be meeting with them again and they're very interested in what we do. >> They want they want oversight on what they do from us. I'm actually going to be doing a training with them. So, um it'd be worth getting to know them. You
can also do a ride along with them because their their ride alongs are very unique and as someone with with your background, you you probably appreciate that. Yes, they've been good to have and and like I said, it started with one officer, now they're at two. They're trying >> Yeah, they they want to try to build the
anchor program out to where there's coverage every day >> 247. >> 247 with one person. You can, but you got to give some time off, >> but there's 13 in the pipeline as I understand. >> Yeah, but they want to build it build it out. Um because unfort you know mental
health the calls that we get it's not Monday through Friday 9 to5 >> right so it could be at any time so I think that's the key is to having multiple teams >> let me work with >> available for response >> at any hard to deal with manage
>> they can talk talk how do you how do you sort through right and usually if someone if someone was in a mental health pro crisis is at 10:00 at night and they've said something maybe to a friend, 911, police are the first person they're calling, right?
>> Yeah. >> And so now we kind of have to put on that counselor hat, you know, and and we provide officers with the CIT training and it's something that they have to do. Um, but in the long run, it's more beneficial to
actually have a team that can actually get at the root of the problem and get the correct services. You know, a police officer can't >> do that, you know. So, it's a good team to have. We're lucky to have. >> All right. So, we need to move on. >> Yeah. So, I'll just hang out afterwards.
I'll leave my card with everybody. So you've got my numbers and my email >> and if you ever >> appreciate that >> need anything just give me a shout. >> Thank you so much >> and and James by the way is always in touch with Jake so you can always triage it that way.
>> Thank you. >> All right. Um next item is ordinance model. So that was for your >> So this is um we are going to be um
meeting with council in a date to be determined in the new year to request some revisions to the existing ordinance. As you know the existing ordinances have been in effect for over seven years. There's not been a single hearing because of all the landmines and potholes and other obstacles. So I want
to go through Nicole. The National Organization of Law Enforcement Oversight has a a four model um matrix and I want to just go through each one briefly and then try to target one of them and then
once we have that targeted um Dr. Dobson and James and I will begin to put some specific meat on the bone to keep bringing it back to the board so we can work up a kind of a bullet point request to council for how we think the ordinance should be and how we would
like to function going forward so we can start doing real oversight. Now, as it is, James is [clears throat] overseeing every case that comes through IIA, but they're not necessarily coming to us because we don't have yet a mechanism for that to go smoothly. So all that
said, let me just give you the a brief rundown. The first model um that Nicole proposes is the investigation model and that technically we could do that. It's in in the ordinance it's written that we should do that but it's an independent and full
investigative authority. This is about this is where 90% of the problems are that we run into in this model because a we don't have a full-time investigator. So, we have no way of doing what Jake is doing. B, uh, that's not going to get funded. There
are all kinds of other legal um, constitutional and employment law barriers there. Um, I won't get into all the weeds, but um, it's just not a workable model and it it's even though it's been in the ordinance, you can see the the result in six years or seven
years has been nothing [snorts] has ever ever come of that. So that's that's one of the things that we're going to ask to u to have modified. The second model is an active engagement model. It's called auditor monitor focused and we're doing some of that.
That's that's where we're really um are James is already doing it. we as a board aren't doing it is is looking at at um the complaints as they come into Lieutenant VA's office and and then also making some um u request for changes in
policies and procedures. Um the third model is a review focused model which is again we're doing elements of that. The fourth model is I think the one where we probably want to end up. It's called a hybrid model. It blends characteristics and outcomes
of the multiple models. And it it it allows us to tighten up our procedures. And the model would look something like this. Although this would not be this is just a hypothetical. As the cases come in, James would review them. If if he flagged any of them or
had concerns, then he would come to the board with them. And then if we authorize him to do so, he would put together um a um basically a packet with the relevant complaints, witness statements, body cam footage, and so forth. We would then as a board go into
close session, review it, um come out of that with a a recommendation where we would say, "No, we think they made the right call or no, we think they they made the incorrect call on this and this is our conclusion." And then we would forward that up the chain of command to
the chief. What would have to be clarified is what what he would then do with that. Would he just take it under advisement? Would he act on it? Would we make a disciplinary recommendation? All those the devil would be in the details. But it would be a model where we would be doing genuine case review oversight, not
our own investigation. uh although we could ask for additional data or additional input from from CPD if we we had um but as it is now as you know under Gity we can't interview officers they can't be compelled to testify I mean there's all these other problems with us doing the investigation but we
can do independent legitimate oversight and that's probably going to be some semblance of that will probably be the model we'll end up with recommend me but again that's going to be a board decision it's not going to be my decision alone certainly not James's um
but James would you add anything to that? >> Sure. Yeah, I just speak to the fact that um when when you mentioned like discipline so discipline recommendations about discipline typically fall under well almost certainly fall under the independent investigation model. The reason for that is for discipline to be
recommended it has to fall on a very specific timeline. Um the internal affairs has a timeline then the chief also has a timeline [cough and snorts] when that discipline is given. So unless you have the staff and resources and the time commitment to actually follow those
timelines laid out in the marketight, >> they're very tight. Yes, that's always been an issue. Um that's one of the examples of one of those conflicts is the timelines don't match up. Uh this board meets once a month. So you're talking about having to adjust the cadence of this board and how you know
but with a review model it's more that discipline has already been um given out if if if it was warranted but the board is reviewing the whole process from the collection of the complaint to the investigation to the discipline that was
given and looking at as as a whole scope and potentially what policies are related to that and that way giving a full kind of at the end opinion on the whole process. So it is a little different um but it's also more manageable and a lot of times what you
see is in these types of models the board does a lot of that review and the office that's assigned to the board who acts as that intermediary does a lot of the monitoring and auditing because that that monitoring and auditing is often a day-to-day activity. Yeah. >> Versus the reviewing can be done at at a
scheduled time. Hey, we're reviewing this case or we're reviewing this topic that we see across these five cases or something like that. Um, and so the hybrid model is allows you to just pick and choose kind of create the menu that is is best for the appetite of the
board. Um, if you think about that way. >> Questions, comments? because I'm I'm gonna recommend and ask the board tonight to approve that we move forward with some variation of the hybrid model but let's discuss it if you
have if you differ from that we can start talking about it >> so sorry go ahead >> so we we have this uh fact sheet that the various Virginia localities of the site presumably
we do not place any extra restrictions that they do not >> correct because This is governed under a state law that was passed. Um, however, you know, each each municipality has their own local code that defines what their oversight
board can and can't do. For example, Mr. Walker can make available to you if you'd like to see the um Virginia Beach ordinance, which is much broader than ours and has much more authority. their board. It's much larger municipality, bigger budget, bigger office, but it'll
give you a sense of how they do it differently. They do have a a form of investigatory model, >> but they have a they have a everything in place to do that. >> And and for I know for other aspects of state code, you can get carveouts if you, you know, jump through a lot of
hoops, which Virginia Beach does. >> They and they have >> the size of that we are we get. Um yeah, my my follow from that is is do we have any idea of how they're doing and how effective they are? I know that Charlottesville is one of the first, so we really only have
a few years. >> Yeah. >> To to pull from, but are you in communication with you know Alexandria and North anywhere? That is on my one of my goals lists to start making those contacts. Um there's there is a um the Nicole group. there is like a full uh
kind of group that emails and discusses and you see that from all across the country. But one of the key things, the first thing that's easy to do is pull the ordinances from those cities and I have those for each of the cities and see really down to the details of what they're doing. That's where you can see some of the language and how they've
structured their their ordinance. But one of the key things and just to give a little context to the process, the reason we're talking about this is because um back in September we met with council, gave them some initial just cleanup of the ordinance um concepts. A lot of that was done through the office,
but as we move forward and the council wants to meet again, um we don't really have a timeline for that yet, but it has been expressed that they would would like to. It's more dealing with some of these deeper issues of what is this board actually going to be doing? what are the products it's going to be
producing and what are those outcomes from those products? Who do they go to? What are those individuals that get those recommendations? What do they need to do or um how do those get addressed? So, when it gets down to the details of the language, that's something that we
work on. That's something that I work on with Dr. Frasier, Dr. Dobson, and and the board as a whole, but like actually having to write that language into a new ordinance and present it to council. Um, and so as part of that, there's a lot of research that goes into it. It's looking
at other ordinances. It's talking to the city attorney's office. Uh, they always do a legal review of everything. Um, could be some conversation with outside council um, from their experience and their knowledge. But those are the fine details that we have to get to. When we have this future discussion with city
council, it will be at a probably a broader level of saying, "Here's what we want to do in theory. Here, here's what we all agree on. Um, okay. now let's go write the specific language and then that can be reviewed and finalized. Um so it is a slow and multi-tered process
but right now the ordinance is basically everything on this sheet in theory. It says we could the board can do everything. Um but it's not very specific about how it does that and what comes of that. >> Nor is it practical and in some cases doable. >> It it might not align with the the
budget. It might not align with the fact that right now the office has one staff member. it does not necessarily align with the fact that you were all volunteers. Um, and so there's a lot of alignment problems that the way I view it is if the scope of what the board is doing is narrowed, but it it is made
more clear and more robust, then it's easier to actually get the things that the community was asking for to begin with um to to actually conduct oversight in a meaningful way. And I would add to that that you know council the message from council is you know you've been at
this for years. What have you done? I mean we have done a lot but I mean in terms of provable results and we need you to come up with a model that will demonstrate to the community that you're doing actual oversight with accountability. And
honestly we we're not in a position yet to do that. And so they want us to bring to them something which will allow us to begin doing that which is why I gave you that sort of hypothetical model something like that where we could say here's what we're doing these cases blah blah blah you know whatever because
there you know one of the council members says you know we need to see results if you want if if this is if we're going to continue to fund this it's not an inexpensive undertaking you know they spent millions of dollars in seven years on this board and they want to see some tangible results and I get
And that's that's that's I think our mission. >> Well, and in in the meantime to speak to kind of what we're doing in the meantime is a lot of the work that we've been doing week to week behind the scenes has been focused on the community engagement aspect which is on here. We'll talk about that.
>> Um about making sure we're getting a very uh significant sample of what the community feels because it's been a lot of years since the original um community was engaged in in founding this this entity. but also um is just starting
that practice of what does it look like to do a review in close session. >> Yeah. >> Because right now the ordinance allows the board to do that. So [snorts] we've already been talking about slating a a review for March, the March meeting going into close session and actually reviewing a specific case that came
through the PCOB office. Um looking at the the body cam footage, the internal affairs investigation and how that was investigated to basically practice that process. Now, sure, that process needs to be cleaned up of how the board does that and what comes out of that, but we
have to start somewhere. And so, the the actually doing a review, actually looking at body cam footage, having discussion, that needs to get started. >> That's our goal for March. Yeah. Just so you know, >> for March, you say? >> Okay. >> And the reason for the timeline is because we'll have two brand new members
in February. So, there will be some orientation for them. I want to give them a little bit of a up to speed before we throw them throw them in the deep end. >> As I'm sure our two newest members are feeling that that get up to [clears throat] speed is >> challenging. So that's that's that's
good to hear that we will be going into a close session with uh something already because uh I can't remember the whole time I've been here we've been in a close we haven't anything really >> and and of course we understand that we have to do that for reasons of confidentiality and and the foyer law
allows us to do that. I mean, we do have a exception to your case. Now, we come out and we we can make a general statement about our findings without naming names. >> And that's that's the key of I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. The key of that that legal component is things
happen in closed session that are private because they're specific uh names, individuals, incidents, events, video, but what translates out of that closed session into a public generalized opinion, recommendation, statement. We
we need that. That's a pipeline that has to be figured out. Yeah. >> Carefully. >> Um >> the devil is in the DJ. >> Yes. >> Yes. Most definitely. >> Two two questions on that. I say I'm >> [clears throat] >> Do we where is there an alternative space that we go for post session
meetings? >> It could happen in the the PCOB office or there are a variety of other meeting spaces. Um the the PCOB office table is big enough. >> It's a little be a little tight, a little comfy, but it would be big enough. Otherwise, there are other rooms >> and we have screens there. We can look
at body cam footage >> and will we have our council >> not necessarily you know keep in mind they'll be billing us at a fairly sizable hourly rate. >> So routinely in the past we had them come to these meetings and we were spending unnecessary dollars just to
have them sit here. >> So we're going to use them much more judiciously and selectively because it $400 an hour. I don't want to Yes. So the city attorney be because I know that there's four recommendations. the city attorney be, you know, uh confirming that, you know, we're doing everything
on the up and up. Oh, yes. I know for other boards that >> everything has to pass muster with the city attorney and any ordinance changes, any procedural changes. But part of the reason for doing this in March would be to um really see where the bugs are, where the where the potholes are and and
clean it up a little bit as we move toward presenting to council. My understanding for the city council, the county board of supervisors, other boards of commission is that the city or the county attorney uh or representative would have to sit
in the close session to confirm that everything stated came under the foyer >> exception >> and that's so that's a conflict of interest kind of situation where we're potentially against the city. I mean, I think I think that I [clears throat]
don't know. Do you know, James? I mean, I think that there's some wiggle room there, but >> Well, this is where it's it's it's a really clear answer, which is that this will be planned with our assigned attorney from the city attorney's office. So, um, April Wimberly, we have a specific attorney assigned to the PC. >> She's terrific.
>> And, um, I we do check in meetings from time to time if issues bubble up. So, this is the the and maybe if she's listening, then she she'll know I'll be reaching out about like planning this out. That's why I also give a little time between now and then to make sure we clean up some of those uh aspects of
close session and what comes out of close session. But we do have assigned city attorney. That's who we go to first. That is our first point of contact. Our outside counsel would be if issues where those conflicts arise in the opinions of the board versus the city. That's where the the purpose of
the outside counsel is. Um and so like you were saying, judicious use of of that outside council because there is a limited budget. Um, but we do have a signed attorney from the city. >> Yeah. >> And we have a good working relationship. >> Yes. >> She she gets us. She knows she knows
pretty well what we do. >> Yep. And she's done a FOYA presentation before with the board and can do one. >> Probably another one when we get to >> when we have all the members. Yes. So she that's something that we would go in close session for. To also speak though to maybe what what you were getting at too is if we were meeting in here and
went into close session. One of the benefits of this space is there is a room behind this. It's it's big enough where we can go into close session if there were anyone here easily go into close session then come back out. >> Um and that's that's helpful in this space. >> Yeah.
>> Just not on March >> March. No, but thankfully actually downstairs there are two conference rooms as well. So there is a larger and a smaller conference room and the same setup is actually there. >> Um yeah, that is a good point. [laughter] Um, Mr. Director,
uh, I got a question for you. Uh, you said you going to get out and, um, get with some of these, uh, other agencies with, uh, their, uh, police review over oversight. >> Yes. So, the the Virginia ones would be
my target to start talking to and building that relationship. >> I just I'm just >> You see some of them at the bottom there? Yeah. >> Yeah. uh the ones at the bottom is the ones I'm very interested in. >> Those are the primary ones that exist in the state right now. There's not a lot in Virginia.
>> Yeah, that those those two those two is the ones that u areas that I I am uh just wondering how they're doing that thing because >> um I'll have James send you the he sent me the other day the Virginia Beach
ordinance. It's pretty extensive but it's very informative. George Maybe send everybody that one if you would, Mr. >> Just just send me a a copy of that. >> Yeah, it's really worth looking at because it was it was informative to me because it it raised some new questions in my mind about what we can and can't
do, >> right? Uh Fairfax County, I pretty much know that one. Okay. >> And um Alexander, but those two at the bottom, it just kind of raised the flag with me. The other thing to not get your input on
it [laughter] had a chance to look at >> all all of these entities are at different stages and phases of developing. I mean like like we had just said uh this is kind of new to Virginia in the way in the form that it is now. >> So every one of these is figuring itself
out in many ways. >> Um some of more than others you know and >> in fact to that point and not to get in weeds here George but Virginia Beach just revised theirs a year ago. So they're having some growing pains, too. >> And they've been at it about five years. So
>> it's ongoing. >> Just a couple things from a couple years ago that I I kind of when I seen that I was like, >> yeah, I think you'll find that I need to look at their ordinance. >> Yeah. >> Other questions or discussion
to entertain a motion to move forward some variation of hybrid model of the four choices. It gives us the most flexibility to get where I think we need to go. >> So moved. >> Can I get a second?
>> Second. >> All in favor signify by saying I. >> I. Okay. Did you get that, Mr. Walker? >> Yep. >> Okay. Thank you so much. >> And then that that will just set the stage of Okay. Let's The board officially wants to move forward and kind of getting the details hammered
out. Yeah. And then >> devil's in the details. All right, I'm going to kick it over to Mr. Walker to talk about the uh the work plan that he and Dr. Dobson specifically put in the most work and I'm very grateful to them.
>> I I'll Dr. Dobson, you step in as much as you want. >> Certainly, whatever you if you if you'd like to pass it off to me too. I don't >> Okay, I I can start off and just introduce it and then >> I I hope everybody had a chance to look at it so we have to go through it line by line because it's long and it's
expensive. But uh it's it's a working model and it's it's one I hope we can use to guide us going forward but it is subject to our approval. So James >> it is much more in a final form now and what you saw last time is uh
>> it's been a work in progress >> was a draft kind of but the whole purpose and goal of it and and absolutely step in Dr. Doson if you have a different thought or opinion or add on is basically to structure the board's work and the cadence of that work so that there's no more question from the
community or anybody else is what are the board's priorities how is it going about finding what those priorities are and then h what work is it doing as a result of that >> um and so the focus is to really start the key thing seeking understanding from the community um Dr. Dr. Dawson and I
have been working a lot on that next level down of that is like, okay, well, what does that look like? How do we go about seeking understanding from the community? How do we keep track of that? Who are we trying to connect with? Um, and that's stuff we've been working. We're working on it today. And that's something we'll bring to you um shortly
after this. But the work plan as a whole says start with that. figure out what the community is interested in, what is the priorities, what are the concerns, and use that as a method to prioritize the board's work so that the board is not just jumping around from topic to
topic um just on a whim and there's actually a cadence to it. The second step is conducting analysis. So, okay, we've collected all this information from the community. Um we're hearing different things, we're speaking to more people. Now we've got to kind of see
well what what does the data in the department show? What does um our discussions what do they result in? Where can we focus our efforts from that discussion? Looking at the research, looking at the complaints that are coming in, that kind of stuff. And that
way there's the ability to set a priority from all these different aspects, the community input, the the department data, all those types of things. You get down to step three, and this is the actual action step. conduct oversight. That could be in the form of and this is where the ordinance really
ch ordinance changes will really be important because what is that oversight look like? It could look like reviewing an internal affairs case file. It could look at like um pulling a specific data set like in the in the past what could have been the flock camera systems and
looking how how the usage of that system is being done and the policy related to that could be looking at a specific policy the use of force policy or the discipline matrix was brought up before and actually conducting conducting that
review doing research and being able for the board to form an opinion. And then the final step is the report outcome. Report outcomes. So you see there's kind of a list of different uh I should number these pages and that's something I can add. But there's different audiences. The the board is intended to
report outcomes to the community, to the chief of police, to the city council, and to the city manager. Each of those different stakeholders potentially need a different touch. The community is getting a more generalized view. There could be very specific things that go to the chief of police. Um, and that that's
these are the kind of things that we need to work out in that ordinance to specify >> here's what the board is doing, here's what the result of that work is, and here's what's going to happen with it. >> Yeah, I was just going to jump in to say, I mean, this is this is really just a a broad process that I'm trying to
think through like what systemically would make sense, systematically would make sense uh for anyone who could benefit from from the work that we're doing. Um, and so that report part is again it's so that Lieutenant Vio when
he comes in, he goes, "Oh yeah, I saw the report. You guys are doing good work. Glad to see that you're doing this thing. Here's the thing that I could imagine you doing in the next month." Uh uh, you know, same with city council, same with the community, right? Everybody is getting some sort of
understanding of what us as a board are doing and they're also understanding how they can have input in some way. So, we're gonna not none of this is is opaque. We're all being transparent to say we're going out there. We're talking to you. If you're not there, tell us
where you are so we can go talk to you. >> There you go. >> That's I mean, that's just that's the So, so I I And again, I don't I don't really do well with with beating around the bush on things. So, for me, this is this is just what makes sense. If someone else seems like they have a
better idea, they have a a better way to get an understanding what the community feels and thinks and needs um and is and is concerned about and then how we as a board mobilize to address those given our limited time, then I'd love to hear
it, but this is just what we came up with. >> I I think it's terrific. Speaking personally, this is a great place to start and then yeah, >> like many things, we'll have to fine tune as we're proceeding >> because who knows what the heck's going to happen once we actually start it. >> But but what I love about it is the how
broad the breadth of it, Dr. Dobson, and the fact that, you know, we're hitting all the the key stakeholders, you know, from city government, CPD, community council, that's that's got to be our priority. >> That's the vision. That's the vision.
Yeah. community. It's like they say community policing. We need to do the community also. >> That's right. >> That's that's that's the at end of the day, that's the whole whole question. You'd be surprised getting out and getting in touch with the public and
talking to people. >> Oh yeah. You get an airflow >> and then you get a lot of more trust. >> Yeah, you sure. >> That's the main thing. You get that trust. >> Yes. >> Well, I'm telling you, it's it's like it's like gold. >> It's like gold. >> Yep. It's like gold. Once you get it, >> you can't screw it up cuz I'm telling
you, it's just like >> like a thong. >> Well, and um you know, as I've talked to to folks at CPD, um you know, my my kind of concept of trust is is is
changing a little bit, but you know, I think what CPD thinks about uh trust is kind of there's this almost bank account that you have Um I think they inherited this from long ago, but um this idea there's a bank account, a trust that you have and it's going to get depleted,
right? Um there's uh all sorts of events that have happened in Charlottesville that made it go up, made it go down. Um and if you have a good sense of that fluctuation and the need to kind of re re-up your
your trust, then I think you're going to do a good job connecting to the community. And I think in the same way with the PCO, various iterations of it, you know, people are frustrated with or thinking about and they feel like they don't have trust, they don't believe in it. They probably feel the same way about the government here. I mean, it's
it's the same thing. So anyway, not to not to not to get all in a on a rabbit hole there, but I I I just am >> Yeah. >> reiterating what what George was just saying. >> Anyway, that's that's the work plan. James, would you speak a little bit just to the work of the board versus the
office just to >> Sure. Yeah. The only reason I included this is just in case [cough and clears throat] anyone wanted I mean this is laid out in the ordinance to a degree but just getting into more of the details is a lot of times there are shared responsibilities between the board and the office. Um but then as you go down
you can kind of see there are certain things that the office it's just better suited to do and the board is better suited to do. Um and I would say that the main thing is when it comes to community engagement, you know, right now this office is one person and this
board will be eight people and the whole purpose of the core purpose of the board is to be that connection in the community. >> Yeah. >> As as um citizens, residents of the community and so it's going to be really an important role for everybody to be engaged in that.
>> Um and so that's why, you know, Dr. Dr. Dobson and I have been working on the more details of what that looks like and who to engage with and how to engage with them. Um it's not meant to define exactly how you have to do it. It's meant to just say if we're going to talk to somebody, we got to keep track of it
and actually get the input. Yeah. >> Um and how do we go about doing that in a way that is broad so that we're reaching all aspects of the community? we're not just going to this one group or the this one group of individuals so that our reach is broad and we're actually >> truly getting input from across the
broad spectrum of the community at all levels. >> Um, and so that's some of the work that as we finish it, we'll send out through email and and we can have individual [clears throat] conversations about it, but it includes everything from you'll see some of these underlined and and
italicized of like a directory. So, that's something I've been working on of like neighborhood associations. Here's the neighborhood association. Here's who are the main contacts in that association. And then also, here's a way that we can reach out to them. Here's the menu of options we can offer. Say,
"Hey, we could come in person and talk to you. Uh we have we could have a survey that we distribute you could distribute to your uh community or your neighborhood or you're you're welcome to come and speak at one of our meetings." like just trying to establish that connection, figure out what works best
for that entity, whether it's a a organization, a business, an association, an individual who has a lot of uh ties to the community. Um the goal is to be able to identify who they are and make a clear way to talk to them and actually bring something back to the
board that speaks to the work that we're going to do. >> Yeah. Um, >> yeah. What >> I was just going to say, so the the the vision of that is is um we eight people while that's see feels like a big number to us, it's it's incredibly small um when it comes to the community of
Charlottesville and it's ridiculous and laughable to the community probably that we would be able to represent all of their their their concerns. And so again, a puzzle to solve is how do we do that? My my like thought in in in doing this is okay, you get representatives
from the community that might have uh be sort of hubs, connection hubs for for getting a lot of people together. Make sure you don't only focus on particular parts of Charlottesville that you actually get everybody represented there. If there's any blind spots, you
find out how to fill those blind spots as best as you can. Um and then again, you get that insight from people on a at least monthly basis. um so that we can mobilize and keep moving forward. Report it out. Repeat, rinse, repeat, rinse,
repeat. Um but yeah, so the the the vision there is I think um like James was saying, you know, it's really uh it's it's it's focused on not putting all of the pressure on us to to to know everything,
but to listen to people, to go out there to events, listen to people, talk to people. and we're creating something that should make it really clear who those people are, how to fill those gaps. Um, the question I forgot to ask
Lieutenant Bio was going to be who how do who like uh was going to be about actually some of those representatives of uh like how do we get uh some representatives from the community from from his perspective, but this gonna be a question we're asking all sorts of people. It's why that I Excuse me, Kyle.
That's It's why I said in my email to you last week that, you know, I'm going to ask the board in the new year to each of us commit to, you know, two um outreaches, however you construe them. Could be a could be a neighborhood
association, could be an individual, it could be an organization, it could be a a civic organization, you know, it could be people on the street. But we've got to put boots on the ground because it's not going to get done from the office. It hasn't historically been done. We've done four street fairs a year, which was
woefully inadequate. You get the same people showing up with walking away with four teddy bears. And you know, that's just not the way to do the messaging. With all due respect, and um so so we we're going to have to do some work, guys. We're going to have to put put
some boots on the ground and and I'll be asking you and James will coordinate that in the sense that he'll have the the um neighborhood directories, other directories. We're putting together a whole database of of contact points in the community and we want all of us to
have input to that database to say, "Oh, have you thought about this? Have you thought about this group? This that group?" So stay tuned. But but I want you to be thinking about, you know, what your what your um skill set would be where it could best
be used in your two two outreaches a month. So any any questions about that or comments? [clears throat] >> All I'm going to say is next month. >> Yes, sir. Yeah. >> That that'd be a big topic to bring >> going to the NAACP. >> It'll be a big topic to bring because I
>> Yeah, thank you for that. Um >> cuz Anz and James and I met with you. >> Yeah. >> Once once, but there's a lot more we can do there. >> Yeah. And and I think two organizations there together working together, but we we'll come out something. I talked to
James earlier that I'm working on some stuff. So, >> it's going I think it's going to be uh >> it's going to come out to our favor, you know. Um, let's hope I let's put my fingers together crossed that it will. I'm pretty sure it will because uh I've had
to talk with the president being the vi the vice president. So just I um I had to talk long talk with her u couple days ago. So yeah, it's it's some stuff and in 2026 it's gonna have to kick off
because when you go when we go to city council, I want you to really lay it in there. So So we nobody has a whole lot of questions. We doing what we got to do. We just need your support. >> And you know what [clears throat] else I want? I want butts in the seats when we
go saying, >> "Hey, >> everybody that's here for PCO will be up and >> that's right. and and raise your hand because they will listen to that. >> Oh yes, some of them will. >> Yeah, >> some of them will. That's
[clears throat] all that [cough] >> but yeah, that that'll be a good topic uh for you to uh bring in when you come uh >> next month. >> Yeah, so just to wrap this this section up, um >> obviously I put on there the need for
any alterations, feedback, additions. One of the goals tonight was to have a vote of the board to um approve this as the kind of the plan moving forward. >> But if you look at the last the last couple pages, that's where it lays out the monthly calendars.
>> So we we created a December into January just to start practicing using this. Um and this is something that we could fill in and and update as we go. But if we were looking at what we had talked about last time, we were talking about identifying places to canvas and venue
and organizing the work plan documents. Like some of this evolves as we do it, right? So some of these things we're like, h well maybe the best way to do it is to go about it by building a directory and figuring out where those those pathways are. Um gaining a historical understanding. We had some
conversation um Mr. Fry and I about looking at some of the old documents and the historical documents. um right >> because there is a lot there is a lot from the original members who formulated this board and I know we're also trying to speak to those those members who who created this board to begin with as
well. Um we had talked about a glossery of terms because we use a lot of terminology in this room as well as the the police department does as well and sometimes we might know what that terminology is or we might know what we mean by certain things. We I think Dr. Dr. VS and I were talking about educa,
we were talking about the word education, like what does it mean to educate the community from the board's perspective? >> Are we educating them about ourselves, about the police department? What does that what does that mean? What does that look like? Um, so there's these terms that come up and we're like, what do you mean by that? That's the purpose of that
glossery of terms. Um, >> are you taking you're happy to? Yeah, you're we can talk about that more. We have a bunch of words already, but like just the words that are in the ordinance alone are >> could mean all kinds of things. What does trust mean? What does >> um there's a lot of those terms
throughout the ordinance? [clears throat] >> But then looking at um like a specific general order, you know, talking about is there a specific general order from the police department that the board is relevant for the board to look at at at any given time. So whether that is the
discipline matrix or more frequently in the community um mindset and discussion is about school resource officers and though that's not directly related to that that interaction with the schools and and the police is not directly related to the board. It does go back to
police policy how police conduct themselves. So there are overlaps there but these are all things that we need to to understand and talk about. Um and then the last one Dr. Frasier was about talking about the ordinance and the topics in that ordinance that we need to address. So
>> what I viewed is maybe these things that are listed on that December January timeline we can redevelop into the January February like hey we understand what we're doing. We have a work plan now we're trying to really tie down who's working on what. Are you doing are
you focused on community outreach? Are you focused on working on some of these background processes and documents? Um, are you focused on wanting to look at some policies in the police department? Um, and try to pick what what you feel is most relevant to you. Um, but in
reality, everybody really needs to do that community connections component. >> Priority number one. >> It is the priority because it's hard to say the whole goal of this is to help the community set the priority um through conversations with the board. So >> we live in a bubble which we have been.
It's it's just not a it's not a a good way to proceed. >> So I I think maybe there's two two aspects or two conclusions to this is number one um as the as the t as the time gets later tonight it might be about hey we want to try to fill in this
January to February month calendar plan. What are we going to do between now and February the next February meeting? Um, we could spend some time talking about that tonight or everyone can use this time to think as they as they go home and then we communicate through email or over the phone and say, "Okay, here's
what I really want to commit to." >> Let's let's do that if we could, Mr. Walker. And and you know, maybe wait a week and then send us all an email with some with a menu and say, you know, what what do you want to >> And that's something that we could talk about Monday. We Dr. Dr. Fraser, Dr.
Robson and I meet every Monday generally and talk about some of these things. So, we could we could prep that and send out that menu of options. >> So, just be thinking about where you might your skills might be best used. >> And ideally, we would get ahead on this so that we're doing it in advance of the month. But, you know, as we've said many
times, we're kind of building the plane while we're flying it a lot of times. And the goal is to [clears throat] get ahead of this cadence so that people can look into the future and see, oh, okay, here's what the board has on its radar three months in advance. um because they're getting this input from the
community. Um and so I think the main thing tonight is does the board want to vote on this as the adopted plan? Dr. Dobson, I wanted to make sure you have some room to share some additional if anything. >> Yeah, I think people heard me.
>> Well, I mean, if you have if y'all have questions, let me know. But um yeah, but as you think about when when we get together and send out the email, we [clears throat] need to give community engagement um a good hard look is
priority because that's that's our real that's the hole we got to dig ourselves out of. >> A question I'm a little bit embarrassed to ask, but do we have designated community groups in this community? >> Oh my gosh. Is that very How many neighborhoods? There's there's 20
neighborhoods and they generally all have an association, but there are many many >> we have many many kinds >> organizations, entities, individuals. There's tons. Um, so that's why we're trying to build a directory. >> You'll see with a directory, but there's there's no shortage of of of places to
outreach. >> Yes. >> And are they categorized in any way? >> Yes. So the directory is laying out what kind of entity it is, whether it's a uh like a nonprofit or actual business or just >> like a group or neighborhood and the Lions or the Rose Hill Neighborhood
Association or the >> question about that youth athletic association. Go ahead. >> Oh, that's what you said. Uh Rose Hill Neighborhood Association. Now, how many associations they got? Is
is it the Rose Hill and it's a 10th Street? There's every one of them. >> All of them. >> I don't know >> because I've been trying to figure this thing out, man. I I lived in this town all my life, >> you know, and it's just like, >> well, all these associations coming from
now because I never heard of them until >> they're there >> until I got in this housing chair thing and all of a sudden it's everybody >> has got these associate degrees. >> Here's every neighborhood in the city. Well, so a lot of uh a lot of that work
is done by um neighborhood development services. So that's part of a wealth of information like this. This all came from NDS. It's got every neighborhood, the demographics, the income, the average rent. This is a gold mine. >> Yeah, I need to get hold of that because I I'm because I just happened to hear
you say that and I'm like, did I just hear this two weeks ago? >> You know, at a meeting. [cough] >> We're working on that right now. Yeah. >> Yeah. to Alb's point. Yeah, it's it will be a very um as upto-date uh directory as we can and we'll continue to add to
it. >> And do they have meetings, right? Is it just an informal neighborhood? Some do, some don't. >> I mean, last year I went with the chief to um to talk to to Rose Hill to just with him to say, "We're not the police.
This is who we are." And people had no idea. I mean, it was incredibly useful. It was a oneshot thing, but you know, a lot of heads nodding like, "Oh, really? We didn't even know you existed." I mean, that's that's the level at which we're going into these communities. >> I've heard the same thing.
>> Yeah. It's like, so that's what I mean. This has to be a priority. We have our work cut out for us. You ask the average person on the street, what do you think about the PCB? They don't have a clue what we do. >> Yeah. And one of one of the things that James and I talked about today um as we were in this is a little bit of what we
were talking about of like re-envisioning this um uh is not just going out doing outreach and talking to people because we've done that a lot. We have to be really >> uh thoughtful about what we're doing.
Um, and so that's what uh what we've been spending a lot of time on is taking this big long work plan and all this the mess of what we're trying to do and putting that actually into something that could fit on one page ideally in the [clears throat] nice you can put it in a in a restaurant. You can put it somewhere else where you can hand it
out. Um, it tells people what we are, what our process is even hopefully some to some extent. Uh, you know, here's what we're working on this month. If you want to have some input, [snorts] fill out our survey to us.
>> Well, yeah, but but ideally, this is going to be something that we can uh >> the thing that we did at Jefferson School. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> And uh I think we we need to do another one of them. >> You mean the town hall? >> I think I think you need to really think
about that. do that town hall thing again because a lot of I know you going to get some negativity there because it was there. I heard it. But I think that'd be that'd be another step through the door.
>> I agree with you, George. I I will say though, it sometimes doesn't get into the deeper levels of the community because you sort of get the usual suspects there, you know, the county community leaders and I and that's fine. They need a voice, but I want to get down in the weeds and talk to the guy on the street.
>> Yeah. Well, you can do that, too. I can put you right there [laughter] >> to that end. I understand this script being developed. >> Yeah, that that's what we're working on. A lot of these questions about the directory, the script, like the actual >> survey forms, things like that. That's
what we've been working on. So, trying to package that. What's that? I >> was saying we we technically have it. It's just what we we're being careful in in in bringing it out at whenever it's ready to get there. >> Because the thing is it's the the whole point of it is to make sure that there
is a clear process so that we're not all stepping on each other's feet when it comes to who are we reaching out to and how are we getting the the input from them and how are we collecting that data and tracking it. >> So that's the whole purpose of the fact that there's a directory and there is a intake thing and there's a survey here.
Um, but we're trying to make it simple so that it's like here's a script. If you want to send an email to this group of people, here's the script for the email. Here's the one sheet that you could send them to how to interact with us. Yep. >> So, that's what we've been working on. The goal is to get that out probably within the next week. Some of that takes
it just takes time. It takes time to sit think through and write stuff. Um, >> so that's the >> I guess my other question will be when we go see when do we go to see Senator C next month? >> There is no there's no time. I mean will we have to actually lay our report down
what we don't >> I think that would be strange for them to expect considering we have been waiting for this just to say hey we're going to go with this model uh for them to expect that we're somehow uh functioning as if I mean maybe I don't
>> we didn't even have a quorum till two months >> yeah I mean I that would be wild to expect that we >> I think we're looking at the spring at the earliest to meet with them because we've got a lot of work to before we go to them and say this is what we're asking you. >> So I guess you uh
relaying this to your bosses >> correct? >> Yes. And then that if I as soon as I know then I will I will obviously inform you the last time we had that joint meeting we already had some changes to the ordinance already laid out like literally redlined
>> already done. This is a bit broader than that because we're actually talking about changing some of how the board conducts its work and focuses its actual work. That's why it is a bigger conversation. But as we >> copy that thing, >> yeah, it's like are we cutting this line
out? Are we adding this statement? Some of that involves that research of looking at some of these other other ordinances and seeing what language they have written in there. It is a very detailed process. But what one of the problems or one of the catch catches of this the paradoxes is it's hard to do redlinining detailed writing of an
ordinance when the meeting hasn't occurred yet to talk about what >> is possible and isn't and what is everybody intending and the community connections haven't been made yet. So it would be bad to kind of like write a very detailed ordinance, but also people
tend to it's easier for people to comment on something that's already written >> versus trying to think of it in a theoretical way. So >> it's complicated. >> I I understand the tension there. Um but the the focus is keep moving forward, keep formalizing this into a more clear
format for us as well as the community. >> Yeah. So all that said, um could I >> question? >> Yeah, I'm sorry. I was just gonna and I'm still feeling very new, but this idea is coming to my mind of sending out something maybe James could do this to
community leaders and saying what would they like to see from us? What would be helpful? >> Then that is that's exactly what we're developing. >> Okay. >> The directory has those individuals on it and the process by which board reaches out because the goal is not for me to do all of that. The purpose of the
board members is to reach out to those individuals >> and we know who those people are. >> That's what I'm that's what we're building out. >> Yeah. >> And I have in mind actually some folks for instance that I would ask you to reach out to because I know you know them from your your past right job. >> And if and if because we collect data
and then we find then we know what we need to do because we're hearing people when they need >> that's the that's the goal. So part of that part of that process is a way for board members if you have somebody that's not on that directory already to submit that to me um with the information about that individual because what I'm what I'm building the
directory of off of is who we're already aware of from other city interactions. I mean there are a lot of organizations and there is a lot of community leaders but that doesn't mean that we're going to catch everybody. So if you know people that are related to your work, your your experience and your your
network, we want to add them to that directory. We just want to have a very consistent way of the way that we reach out to them and get feedback from them. >> So um >> but keep in mind, yeah, excuse me, James, that to to borrow a term
historical, there's a solid majority out there that has not ever been asked or accessed. We know the community leaders are. We know the people that show up at meetings and they're important, >> but I also want to get after the people that don't come to meetings. >> That's what I'm thinking. >> And don't speak up because
>> that's the community, you know. It's not just >> we're just dealing with the squeaky wheels. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> The thing you really got to realize with that that um when you get to start getting these community, there's always one person in there that's going to speak for everybody else. >> Oh yeah. >> And that's we don't want that. You know, >> you've been there, done that.
>> We don't want that. We want you to speak up. That's right. open your mouth and let us know how you feel inside. You know, that person that spoke previous to times and in these meetings, we want you to speak. We want that this individual, these individuals that come just sit and
don't say nothing. We want you to open your mouth. This is part of part of the whole thing. So, that's why we got to reach out to these these people and get into them >> and all and that's where you going to start learning your trust >> into these people. But, you got to have a game to have know how to get there
with them. And it may not be they're even going to come to a meeting, George. We might have to go to them. >> There you go. >> And be willing to knock on a door or two and say, "Can I have 10 minutes of your time to answer a few questions?" >> You just got to remember one thing and all that. These folks, number one, when
you say police, >> you know, that's that's the first thing, you know, and they going it's like slamming the door in the face. You got to let these people know before you actually start hitting doors that no, we're not the police. We are police oversight review board
>> because we're not police officers and all. I mean, I know a lot of you looking at me, but um just that we're not this is we're here to help you, to work with you, to hear your information and your feedback and all.
And we're that's where the script that we're working on will come in handy because we're going to be sensitive to those kinds of concerns. So we got work to do. >> Just got to meet got to be >> but we don't get so many gloves. Trust and believe gloves. Trust and believe.
>> So one of the important just and it's a good time to mention it. One of the important aspects of this is um Dr. Dobson when we were working today we were looking probably within the next week we'll have all these items finished and ready. And it highlighted the importance of using the city email and
city account because some of these things are behind the scenes like the directory that's not going to be a public item. No, >> the only way for me to restrict that is to restrict it to your city account, right? And so that's where if there's challenges there, please communicate with me so I can make sure that we get you set up to be able to access these
things. Our our goal has been to make it simple so that the the script and the outline, all that has like here's the directory, take a look at that. Here's if there's someone not on there, here's how you can submit it to me so I can add it. um when you're ready to reach out to one of these, here's the email you can send and here's the steps that you can
mention of, hey, here's a survey you could give out to your members or we could come in person, help us schedule a time. [cough and clears throat] You know, that's the that's literally what we've been working on is laying that out very clearly so that everyone has a framework to go through [cough and clears throat] and that way there's some me, you know, plan of this
madness, which it's hard because if you have eight people on the board in this [clears throat] office reaching out to all over the place, that's where it can get a lot of things can get lost um and messy. and we're trying to avoid that. >> We have to protect it. We have to protect the information. So, yeah. [clears throat and cough] >> Excuse me.
>> Well, that wraps up that section. >> Okay. Can I get a a motion to approve the work plan? [clears throat] >> Second. >> Second. All >> in favor? >> I thank you, >> James. [clears throat] struggling.
>> Help them out. Help them out. [laughter] >> You need another water. There's more water back there. >> Yeah. >> Um I usually carry them around. >> There's ones in the fridge, too. But [clears throat] the uh this has we've already basically talked about this next section on the or on the agenda here.
And kind of the whole point of that was just me to relay um things like I just met with one of the new um lawyers in the um legal a justice center. I met with them this week. Um Mr. Dillard
invited uh me to attend the next NAACP meeting in February um to to talk to that crowd. So that's that's a way of like just demonstrating this is actively happening. We're actively having conversations with community entities, individuals. Um, but now we're trying to
structure it so that we're actually capturing what they're saying to us and it's not just getting lost in some notebook that I took with me and wrote down a few few notes, right? We're actually collecting the themes. >> And so, one of the other aspects of that and I don't I don't know, it's up to you if you had anything from those documents
that I provided um Mr. Fry about some of those historical perspectives. That's always a a big deep well of digging into the history of this thing and seeing what people thought at the time when this was created. >> I mean, I can I can see that there has been not just motion but progress
[clears throat] >> in terms of where things were and where things were now. Can't really synthesize any particular lessons out of what I've reviewed. [snorts] back >> and it's there's a lot and it's it's a
lot there but what it includes and if anyone wants to see some of these documents it it'll be things like letters from some of the organizations in the city that originally proposed support of the board and what they envisioned this board being >> [snorts] >> um and the original members who had
[clears throat] an what this board is and there is a gap between what the board became and what was intended. So, one of our goals in this is as the ordinance is amended and maybe, you know, focus down a little bit is to do both things, focus our work, but also
give the community a little bit more of what they were asking for to begin with. >> Does the community today still want the same thing? >> Yeah, good point. >> That is a good point. Um, so I don't know if anyone else has had some community outreach, just even if it
was just [snorts] casual or ad hoc that you wanted to mention or bring up or conversations you've had with anybody in the last month or so um before we start formalizing this. I have a meeting with um two um longtime city residents that were
part of the original movement for the PCO that um just to get their thoughts seven years later, eight years later. I look forward to know but I'm looking forward to that. They were receptive to seeing where we are and where we're
going to speaking with us. Yep. So, also it's always always good to [snorts] try to get some some additional people here. Last last week or last month was pretty good. We had a couple people here, a couple of public comment, but trying to get more of that because this is a forum too for people to share [snorts] out their voice publicly.
>> Yeah. Um that's something that I continue to I'm disappointed [snorts] in if I'm honest. Uh because it's uh people have a lot to say uh it seems, but um I don't know where those those people are. And
so I'm I'm saying this in in my public recording of it. Uh, I would love to see you here. Um, you know, um, I am not I'm not afraid of of negative comments. I'm not afraid of of negative feedback, criticism,
uh, all those things. So, [snorts] where you at? Uh, that's call to action right there. >> Well, I didn't have anything else from my end, so >> Okay, >> I got an idea. Yes, please. Al, um it
seems to me that asking the question succinctly from whoever we're going to whether it's neighborhood associations, two things. Who are you going to ask and how succinctly [snorts] we ask the question? So, >> it's going to be very succinct. It may be one question,
>> Jeff's question actually. [laughter] Really? I mean, he he came up he's he did this canvasing before and it's a it's a fantastic question. >> What is that question? When I first came on the board, I went to uh South First Street, West Haven, and Prospect and knocked on some doors
and I said, "You I said,"I a white guy. I don't know much about what goes on over here, but can you tell me what's been your experience with Charlottesville police?" And boy, did I get an earful in every one of those houses. I heard stories that made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
This was six and a half years ago. So that question, you will be amazed. say, "What has been your experience with Charlesville police?" >> Such a good open-ended question. >> And it presumes nothing. It just says, "Please educate me." That's what I said. I said, I said, "I saw one police car in
my neighborhood in 30 years." Said, "I don't know anything about what goes on over here. You need to you need to school me on that. I'm a privileged white guy. Tell me." [clears throat] And what did they tell me? [snorts] So, they people will talk. You
just have to open yourself to it. And that's why I like the simplicity of the question because it's [snorts] so I mean if you [clears throat] anyone who's done investigations knows um and I know other folks have done interviews you know if you just ask a question you just sit
there in silence people will talk [laughter] >> it's uncomfortable >> well my thing is that uh [clears throat] and I learned little verb with judo >> you know you know brings a lot of trust and >> believe you said that I didn't quite
follow Say what? >> I didn't quite follow. >> Verbal judo. >> Verbal judo. >> It's a good school. It's a good class. Trust and believe. >> I usually think of it as one of the things I heard a while back was uh I arrived in this world with two ears and
two eyes and only one mouth. And that's a clue as to how often I should use each. [laughter] [cough and clears throat] >> Excuse me. Yeah. >> Okay. Well, there's that second public comment, but I don't Yeah, unless there's someone else. >> Caroline, anyone online? Besides the
chief, >> they are not. >> Okay. You said the chief is on. >> One person, but they don't have their hand, right? >> I thought the chief was >> I got a text message or two, so I know some of you are watch being watch. >> Oh, shoot.
>> Oh, that's pretty frequent. Um, in fact, I'll just let you know now. the chief has um uh indicated that he could attend our February meeting. Um so you can because I know that was some of the interest from the board members to talk to the chief and have the same sort of dialogue and ask questions. So um great
>> he he's offered to come and that's great. >> Let's accept his offer. >> Yeah. >> Gratefully. >> Yes. Very very happily. I thanked him already. So >> good. >> All right. Any other loose ends before
uh I ask for a motion to adjourn? We had a pretty long meeting here tonight. Think very good good one and appreciate everybody's >> input and I look forward to the the year and I think we're going to get some stuff done and I'm excited. >> Most enthusiastic I've been in six years
on this board. >> I think this is one of the best meetings in my four years on >> Thank you, George. >> There we go. I'll take that. We'll all take that. >> Can I get a motion to adjourn? >> So moved. >> Second. >> Second. All
>> in favor?