Welcome to the board of health meeting of December 15, 2025. Pursuant to Governor Healey's March 29th, 2023 signing of the acts of 2023 extending certain COVID 19 measures adopted during the state emergency suspending certain
provisions of the open meeting law until June 30th, 2027. This meeting of the Chattam Board of Health is being conducted in person and via remote participation. Please note this meeting is being recorded and will be available shortly hereafter for scheduled and on
demand viewing on any smartphone or tablet device. If anyone else is recording this meeting, including the use of AI note takingaking apps, please notify the chairman. Every effort will be made to ensure that the public can can adequately access the
proceedings as provided for in the order. A reminder that persons who would like to listen to the meeting while in progress may do so by calling the phone number 1 9508-945-4410, conference ID number 117041383 pound, or join the meeting online via
Microsoft Teams through the link in the posted agenda. While this is a live broadcast and simalcast on Cadam TV Xfinity channel 1072, despite our best efforts, we may not be able to provide for real
time access. We will post a record of this meeting on the town's website as soon as possible. Now, I'll turn the meeting over to our chairman, Dr. Noble Hansen. >> Thank you. It shall be the policy of this board to conduct its meetings under the open meetings laws so as to
encourage public participation whenever time permits and as part of agenda item discussions. Uh today we are having uh a public hearing to discuss and review the proposed determination of bedroom count
regulation. And um first we'll get a uh quorum and when I call your name please say present. John Beckley >> present. >> Dick Edwards >> present. >> Ron Browman >> here. >> Uh Noble Hansen here. And uh Joanna Kale
>> here. >> Here. So we have five. Okay. So we have a uh quorum and uh Okay. So it is uh the proposed uh chat board of regulation determination of
bedroom count in residential dwellings. And this is uh sort of a refinement of of regulations that have been in place. A couple things have changed. Um and I'll read through the whole thing if I need to, but I'm not sure I need to do
that. Uh most people will have have seen the posted uh document. Uh one one thing that we did change a little bit is uh definition of an open concept or a rate room and
how you count rooms and that was taken from some other towns uh similar documents actually but I can open it up and first just any anyone on the select board have a comment or a question before we open it up then mainly what we >> select board >> not the select board
>> oh the health and uh Then we'll open up to uh comments. And what we want to do is hear from people. Um >> you have to open say open the public hearing in the time. >> Okay. We're opening a public hearing at uh 5 minutes after 4 on
um December 15th, 2025. So the public hearing is open. And are there comments or questions or uh uh anything that we we should hear about from from the public? We have a number
of people in the audience and probably come up to the mic and I see David is the quickest on his feet. Uh good afternoon, David Clark. Um
so, uh my first question is what what prompted this? Is there a crisis in town that that you have to be more restrictive on uh on how you count bedrooms? >> I think it was more or less that we we're we're counting bedrooms all the
time when we're looking at uh septic system and variances and house plans. And I think we started off looking upon it more as a clarification of what was written and how how we were going to understand it. Um and it may have evolved into some some other changes, but I I think that's where it came from.
There's I don't think there's a crisis, but we're constantly trying to figure out what a set set of architectural plans is in terms of our rules with bedrooms and total room count. It Judy may do more of this than us because I think people interact with her first and
then we and then we get it. >> Okay. Um, and the only reason why I say that is because mass law requires you to state at this public hearing what particular circumstances in the town of Chadam requires you to have regulations
more restrictive than the state. And there's nothing in this document that that leads to that conclusion. >> Okay. Um I yeah I I would >> these did go before our town council and
he um did not state any concern. We do have a purpose um listed at the top of the rig. So >> how is that purpose unique to Chattam? >> I I can't answer that question. I mean >> well so then if the if the board votes
on this they're in vi violation of state law. >> Okay. These are things you you we're having a public hearing so you can make comments and we will follow up on your comments and obviously we will >> I can read you the statute um prior to the adoption of any such regulation or
amendment which exceeds the minimum requirements for subsurface disposal of sanitary sewage as provided by the state environmental code. That's title five. A board of health shall state at a public hearing the local conditions which exist
or reasons for exceeding such minimum requirements. Again, there's nothing in your proposed changes that addresses that. >> Okay. I mean I >> So the state has a definition of of
bedroom. What is a bedroom that's different than than what we have? basically the first bullet points. >> I mean, I think the board has been concerned just to answer the the reason for us doing this about the size of
houses and the number of um accessory rooms that could be used as bedrooms. And with the short-term rental issue in town, we're finding um a lot of rooms that have been approved as otherwise being used as bedrooms. So, that's
really the reason is just to um just to make our our bedroom definition more concise to make it easier for the public and for the designers and engineers. >> Well, you you speak of short-term
rentals. Um, I looked at all your agendas for this past year and uh and there were 13 instances of uh the board having a show cause hearing for for a uh
short-term rental. Assuming every one of those um had a was an issue regarding somebody using a room as a bedroom. That's 13 properties in the town of Chattam. of over 7,000 residential units. So you're proposing to tighten up
your regulations based upon 2 less than 02% of the public. So it's 99.8% of the houses in chat are theoretically in compliance. So I think this is an overreaction to to a
problem that's largely invented. Um certainly 2% or less is not a crisis where you have to come up with regulations that further restrict what people can do with their houses.
>> I can just say that none of those hearings had anything to do with bedroom number. They were all about whether they were registered or not, which you know, we get bedroom number. Our inspector goes out and routinely tells people which rooms they can and cannot use and
we review the plan. This board saw no violations of >> not to the point where we had to have public hearings on them. >> Okay. So >> So >> that just further reinforces that it doesn't appear to be a problem. >> Well, okay. I think that um we that's
something we'll look into. We'll probably get the attorney to review it again and um we'll review what the minimum requirements are and what we've done more and whether it is something we can or can't do, but I think we would probably need our town attorney's opinion on which I think we already have
this, but we'll we can review that again. Um >> and then speaking >> and I think I think we started out it was more a clarification of it, >> right? >> And maybe a tightening up um of it. Well, you then a than a wholesale
change, but we that's something we can review. I think that's um >> well, when I when I say tighten up, um uh the uh the bedroom count um method of determining the number of bedrooms is a very large departure from the state
regulations. >> Which one? >> You mean the total number? >> Whole house count. Yes, >> that's in that's in the >> I think I think that >> well it's in title five but but the town your version of it is is substantially
different >> in in what in what way? Just inform >> and well you you're stating that you take if it's nine rooms or more you take the number you're saying that uh the number of rooms shall be the number
of rooms divided by two. No, it says the number of rooms >> or whichever is bigger. It says >> but title five says the number it'll be presumed to be. There's a big difference there. Okay.
>> And uh and title 5 also states that the applicant can provide the health department with a deed restriction um limiting the the dwelling to the lesser amount of rooms. If they're truly
not bedrooms, but this room count divided by two calls it a bedroom. It's certainly not going to be intended to be a bedroom such as a home office with a 72 inch um access. Um doesn't qualify for a
bedroom under your regulations, but if that house has more than nine rooms, it now becomes a bedroom by default. And so title five says the owner can uh record a deed restriction limiting
the structure to the lesser amount of rooms bedrooms. Um and again title five bedroom count is to ensure that the septic systems adequately
sized. I don't think we have that problem in the town of Chadam in that uh the last four census I think shows that Chattam has an average o average occupancy of less than two persons per dwelling unit. So, it's not about the
it's not about wastewater and properly properly sizing the septic system and uh and it's all about from what I see is is limiting the size of houses which title 5 is silent on.
>> Uh I I think our understanding is that the the um the uh whole house room count was in the the state's title five. >> Yep. And um it was basically stated the same way. House over nine rooms, you
take the total number of rooms, divide it in half, round down, and that's the presumed number of bedrooms. >> You took out the word presumed. >> Say that again. >> You took out the word presumed. >> Oh, you're saying that the word shall
instead of the word. The state code uses the term presumed to have that many bedrooms, >> right? >> Regulation says shall >> and then the state goes on to say that the applicant can design for less number
of rooms um provided they um record a deed restriction and that language is left out. >> Okay.
Yeah, I think shall and presumed. Okay. >> So, what you're saying is if if if the word shall was replaced with presumed and a sentence was added that said the homeowner could uh provide a deed restriction,
uh uh limiting the number of of bedrooms that that additional room could not be used as a bedroom. that would that's what you're what you're >> well that's what the state requesting. So I mean there are many many other towns that have done this that have not done that but uh you know I guess that's
not a big issue. Now in terms of the the occupancy of the houses I don't believe that that with the the the dramatic increase in number of short-term rentals we're now having that low occupancy rate in Chadam. And I
don't think the census has provided an answer to that question, but I know in my neighborhood the short-term rentals next to my house have six people in it today. And that house never had more than two people in it for
the last 25 years. So, you know, the the shortterm rental surge in Chadam is dramatically changing, you know, the number of people that are in Chadam. And you just look look at the traffic
>> certainly has changed, but um I I think that one property near your house is an extraordinary example in that um I think you talk to any broker in the town of Chadam and they said they I think they
all would agree that if you have a 10 week season of full occupancy, you're doing darn good. And your theory is you're stretching it to an eighth eight-month season, which um there are very few properties that that
that can handle all that that are able to be rented this far into the shoulder season. Um >> well, >> okay. So your but your big point there is that the the distinction between the
word shall and presumed written into it. That's that's the big that's the one that you're questioning >> that that gives an applicant the the the the um ability to come before the board and present evidence to overcome that presumption.
>> There's no doubt that this is more restrictive than title five and I think it was meant to be that way by the way we wrote it. So, that's something we'll have to look into with our town council. >> Mhm. >> Thanks, >> Y. Thank you.
>> Good afternoon, Eric Whitley. Thank you. Um so previous speaker brought out a couple of really important points and and then um couple people on the on the board of health um really shed light on what this is all
about. It it seems that the intent is really to fight against something that probably really isn't a problem. This short-term rental issue. And it sounds like there's even a member on the board that is specific to his neighborhood
that he's trying to translate through the entire town, which is uh in my opinion inappropriate. Um the making the this restrict this uh regulation more restrictive for that purpose
is really not something that that I don't think the the board of health should be doing. if if that's where the town wants to go to further restricts in some way that they're not currently restricted, it's potentially a zoning issue. and and to try to back this into
the to the uh um the bedroom count and the and the Title Five regulation that um that you have um oversight of um takes that minor piece of what is part of building a house, renovating a house,
and defining how many bedrooms there are for the number of places that really are short-term rentals. um and expands it over everyone that's trying to do something with their property. Um it's just not the reality that all these houses are being built for short-term
rentals. Yes, there's short-term rentals. Yes, there's certainly more than there were 20 years ago. Um but to to take your role and try to push that on to try to stop something that you have a personal issue with uh is
inappropriate. And I I really feel strongly that that's what what you're trying to do here. >> Thank you. >> Uh good afternoon board members. Uh my name is Bill Marsh. I have a building company named East Companies. Um,
I got notice of this proposed thought about change and uh, bedroom definition toward the middle of the week last week, maybe even toward the end of the week. And I really feel that in my opinion the um, as I read it that um, your
suggestions or thoughts are drastic and unnecessary. Um, as I talked to folks around town or in the building community, which you really haven't had much time to talk to too many people, um, the feedback I got,
which was, um, I don't know this gentleman's name in the green, um, but he seemed to hone in on with his comment on on what may be, uh, something that is a concern that that should be dealt with in the town of Chadam, and that's
short-term rentals. And when this fellow says that he's got one on each side of him and and so so now we're going to hold the because of that you're holding the the building community in this town hostage for unnecessary cost and and it
really hurts um our building efforts uh dramatically. I mean, we've been dealing I I've been building this town for 55 years and and I frankly don't know one house that we have built in all those years that that that folks are are
conducting short-term rentals and the your the u the title five regulations are incredible. um what we do in the way of taking care of of um of wastewater is
is it's unbelievable what what we do in the way of construction of septic systems um uh nitrogen reducing systems, the expansion of our of our sewer system in town, which is is really wonderful.
And but this it although the although your concern may be bonafide in the way of their of short-term rentals being abused in some fashion, I haven't seen any of I hear about it, but there's nobody in my neighborhood that is is conducting short-term rentals, and I
live on the water where you where you might expect to see them. So, I think you ought to focus your concerns uh in policing and permitting on these so-called short-term rentals. I mean, we build houses of an average size of 3,500
square ft. Um, mostly three, sometimes four, and unusually five bedrooms, and these these bedrooms and these houses go occupied uh 2/3, 3/4 of the year. So, I I just don't understand the problem. Um, but I but if we're to adopt these
regulations that I read in your draft form, it's really going to hurt the builders in this town. So, I'd like to see you to take more time and and invent this properly with the building community and others that are concerned. Thank you.
>> I I let me just say I think um short-term rentals is one aspect, but I think what we confront more often and Judy could speak to this is uh bedroom counts and septic systems that are installed. you know, title five, an IIA system. Um, and then the house plan
that's there and whether the bedrooms designed in that house match up with the septic system. That to me, that's mostly what we do. Short-term rentals is maybe is a part of it. But the other thing that would help us is these aren't I think we thought this was more a
refinement of existing regulations. So, if there's something that jumps out that you think is wholesale new that was not there before, that's a whole new issue that would help us um uh you know, when we go over this because this is a proposed determination. We're we're
having a public hearing. But what what jumps out at you that where you say, "Well, this is just impossible from our standpoint." Well, I'd like to I' I and others um would like a little more time, a little more notice to be able to digest this and to be able to work along
with our board of health at at understanding what your concerns are and and taking care of them. Um, two things that jump out that not only in your proposed regulations, but as a as a practical matter, the houses of today
have changed from the houses of yester year. Not even yesterday year, 20, 30 years ago. But it seems like so many of the houses that we build have legitimate lofts in these houses. And it seems to me you you're trying to call these lofts
bedrooms when they truly are a loft and they're being used as a loft. And and a lot of people are finishing lower level basements, especially in in houses where there are walkout conditions. And we all know that most of the all all most almost all of the really good flat easy
to build on lots in town level lots are gone. So a lot of the the available building lots are sloped and uh they kind of look for a walkout basement. So, we'll finish space there and there may be a recck room. It may be a home theater, maybe a pool room, maybe a lot
of things. And and maybe there's a couch down there and maybe some little kid sleeps there when when grandma and grandp have the the kids there for Christmas or any other holiday. But for the most part, these these spaces in houses go unoccupied
75% of the time. So, I just I think that we Go ahead, Judy. I was just going to say those rooms aren't counted as bedrooms in this regulation. Lofts, >> sorry, I can't hear you. >> Lofts are not counted as bedrooms in this regulation unless they have um adjacent full bathrooms.
And um >> and so what's wrong with a full what's wrong with a full bathroom? I mean, >> basement rooms below grade are not counted as bedrooms either. >> I mean, and in the whole thing about a bathroom, somebody needs to go to the bathroom. Let them go to the bathroom. It doesn't mean they're sleeping in that
space. And so many houses today, Judy, are being built with pools. >> And pools uh generate the need to go to the bathroom, especially with kids. They need to come in and go to the bathroom. You're going to call that that room a bedroom? I mean, it's I I wish you would
take some more time with this. I understand the plight of the whole shortterm or long, whatever kind of rental you want to call it. I'm not seeing that in in this town as being a problem. This fellow in the green is cuz he's got one side and and he's got two sides of his house. She's got short-term
rentals, I guess, is what you said. Did I understand that clearly? >> It's only one side. >> Okay. >> It's a short-term rental. It's a short-term rental owned by uh uh what's the name of the one of the one of the uh big rental companies. Uh but but
you know, they have a 10-month season. I I don't know about all the other short-term rentals in town, but that's my experience. My experience is also that there are a lot more people in Chattam than there used to be. Even now, you drive on Queen Anne Road now,
you know, you wait for five cars to go by at at an intersection. 10 years ago, that wasn't the case. There are a population of Chadam is substantially higher than it than it than it used to be. And I believe it is
largely due to Reynolds, but I can't we don't >> I I don't agree with you at all. And and frankly, your comment I don't want to be out of line here this afternoon, but your your comment is is completely um anti-development.
I mean, Cadam has grown since its inception. It's become a very very popular town. We all know that. And uh and I I have no problem at all with you trying to control and police uh short-term rentals if in fact they're hurting the town, but because the town
is growing doesn't mean that's hurting the town. And that's what I just heard from you. >> Yeah. I I would bring it back to I think our problem is we'll see a set of plans on on architectural plans of a house and a septic system that's being proposed
and we have to look at it and say how many bedrooms is this and and it's not just what's labeled but we have to have some sort of rules about what we call a bedroom and what we don't call a bedroom. So it it does admittedly get a little arcane about how you do it but we
try to have some rules and minimize just the subjective part of it. I think that's what what the intent is. Your suggestion that you all need more time to review this regulation because you really couldn't answer the question, what is the specific thing that you object to? That's reasonable. We and we
we can arrange something like that. How should we go about informing you beforehand and uh letting you know beforehand what we're going to do so that you can give the kind of input that you'd like to give to us? What how how should we do that? other than >> I I just want to say we probably had six
hearings at board of health meetings on this topic over the last six months. So >> this is the first one that this is the first the first public hearing. >> I mean one one thing that can be done is I the building office must have a list of builders in town. I don't think we've all gotten any kind of proper notice
about this. Well, it's been, you know, I did send it out to a few people who are here and knowing that you would be interested in this and the word would get around, but we have had six or it'll probably at least six public hearings on this just in the course of our board of
health meetings. It was advertised in the paper. It's printed in the paper. Um, so this this process is open. We're here to discuss it today and that's what we're doing. We're not going to vote on it. I don't think the board is going to vote on it tonight. So, especially with
so much um concern on your part. So, >> thank you. >> This is what we're having here is a public hearing for you all to tell us what you're thinking. And so, we'll factor that in. I mean, we're just trying to do the best job we can to look at a set of plans, see how many bedrooms are really are there. And houses have
become more complicated, more extra rooms, and you know, so we're just trying to sort our way through that. Um, so we appreciate the input because we we will look at we will try to address it. >> I I I can tell you with confidence that you know we build a lot of houses and um
the however and all the towns are different. However, it gets determined what the bedrooms are. The the um the idea of a bedroom and the use of a bedroom is simply not being abused. And and that's the that's the sense I get
from your regulations. So, I'm hoping that we can continue to work together, >> right? But when but when we go to look and and make a determination about number of bedrooms in the septic, it's hard for us to weigh in intent or or some sort of a generalized survey of
the town. You know, we have to have some specific things and it gets a little, you know, I use the word arcane. I I I agree. So, but we can try to figure that out, I think. >> Okay. Thank you very much. We do we do have issues when we look at
a set of plans and we see an office with an on suite full bath with a with a shower and included in an in an office it's labeled office it's clearly you know and I can tell you that ever since
co half of the houses when we sit down with our customers that prospective customer we're going to build a house for and designing a house and he speaks up and says, "Well, I got to have a home office." So, we do a home office. We know he no sooner gets those words out
of his mouth than she says, "Well, gee, if if Bob's going to have a home office, I need one, too." So, you're seeing a lot of home offices, and they're legitimate home officers. They are not being abused as bedrooms. >> Well, then you don't need an on suite full bath attached to your home office.
>> Well, that's not up that's not your decision. I'm sorry. >> Well, >> I can tell you this. The bedrooms and the houses that we build are not build are not being abused. Point blank. Now, if you got a few spot cases in this town
where you got short-term rentals and you need to focus your attention on that, that's what you should be doing. I'm making the building community suffer from it. And that's what's going on. >> Yeah. I would just say that uh when we see a plan and there's a room and it
says office, you know, it's labeled office, we have to have some criteria beyond just the label that the architect that you all put on the plan, some some concrete way of saying is that
a bedroom or is it a bedroom by our rules? That's what we're trying to do. And I understand the whole labeling thing is is uh is very difficult. I mean, >> I don't even know. I have to ask David Clark on some of our applications. You know, I'll get I'll get the feedback back. The plans are done by our
architect. We submit them. Then David said, "Gee whiz, you know, you're calling this a sun room." Well, yeah, it's a sun room. Well, you're going to have to call somewhere something else because they're going to they're calling the board of health's calling it a bedroom when it's not a bedroom. >> So, I mean, I don't know what the answer
uh to this issue is, but I'm more we are all more than willing to cooperate and continue to work with you. >> Absolutely. That's that's what we're trying to do. We're not >> okay. >> But um >> I would say it is difficult for us to determine what is a bedroom. So it does get to be a problem no matter what the what the label is. And I also say this
isn't out of out of the whole air. I mean there already was a set. We actually viewed this more as a refinement of the pre-existing rules than than wholesale new new rules. And there are other towns that have and I I guess I can say it. I mean, the town of
Hangingham has a very, you know, explicit set of um rules that was a template and so we're not the only town that's doing this sort of thing. Um that that's all I'd say. But I think what you can give us specifically and if you need
more time and to to have some kind of a meeting, that's um you know, we can consider that. But I asked you how what's the best way for us to notify all of you people in advance so that you have time to look at things and you don't feel like there's lack of
communication. I mean this is a public hearing and it's there's a notice in the chronicle and we've been having it it's been an item of discussion at our meetings for >> how many months? >> I would say email works pretty good. >> Well, also it's on it's advertised the um in the town government the web page
under agendas. Every week our agenda is posted there and it gives start to, you know, look more often. I mean, every I religiously read the chronicle and, >> you know, the whole legal ad section get to be so so large. Anyhow, but >> your suggestion is you go we go to the
building department and find a list of all the uh contractors in Chattam builders. I'm more than happy to to to to meet with Jay and and and and try to condense it at least from where I sit as to you know known concerned builders
or those in the real estate community that would like to be involved. >> Okay. So, so one of the points for us is h if we have another discussion how do we inform everybody so you have what you feel is advanced notice so you can look at things >> again I think email works pretty good
>> noted. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Just got one more comment or request actually. Um, as with a a lot of your changes over the last five years, first your your
nitrogen regulations and uh and now uh the bedroom um issue. Um, one thing that I had asked during the nitrogen uh, debates uh, is if you had any data and and I think you said you
didn't have any data um, as to why those changes were necessary. Um, so the town's had sewer had the expanded sewer for over 20 years at this point. So there's a tremendous amount of data uh available at the water and sewer
department of all these houses that are being connected to the sewer. Um every permit for connection to the sewer states the number of bedrooms in the house, floor plans are provided as part of the application to connect to the sewer. So there's a tremendous
amount of information there and more importantly um that information can be weighed against the actual increase in flow at the water and sewer department. So for the last 20 plus years you've had x number of bedrooms in theory connecting
to the 10 sewer and you as a result there's been an increase in flow at the water sewer plant. Um, I'm willing to bet that uh the actual flows uh are far less than
title 5. Uh, and I think the actual flows are going to be far less than what GHD, the town's engineer, expected um in these last 20some years. And if that's the case, then uh your presumption that
people are using these rooms as bedrooms are not supported by the facts. If it turns out that the um the water the wastewater flow uh is at title five or or or more, then you have a very strong
case to to tighten up your regulations. But I I just don't think that's the case. But I'd love to see the numbers. Um It's it's not something the the public have has the resources to gather. Certainly, uh the town has the resources to provide
those numbers, but it' be interesting interesting to see what those numbers are. >> So, what data exactly are you talking about? >> You know, how many houses have been hooked up to the sewer? That's relatively available since the state
lifted the moratorum on connection. >> That's known. water and sewer department has that number. They also have on every single permit the number of bedrooms. Um and so there's a direct correlation
all those houses the you can calculate the number of bedrooms and there should be and there is an increase in flow at the water and sewer plant. Um my gut feeling is it's that increase in
flow is significantly less than anybody's projections. >> Right. I mean is this with the idea of of of changing the the state title five regulations in terms of septic systems and and bedrooms and and homes and and
what you need. the the purpose of the state having the bedroom definition is to ensure that the on-site um septic systems are adequately sized. That's it. >> Right? And that's basically what we're trying to do as well. Right.
>> Our problem is when we look at an architectural plan and you have to count bedrooms, what criteria do you use to count bedrooms? That's the hard part, >> right? Absolutely. And you're making presumptions that people are going to be using these rooms as bedrooms. So, >> we're trying to develop criteria as to
how we count bedrooms. I mean, it's hard for us to >> we should have you sign an affidavit or something. I mean, to to to figure intent is is difficult. I'm just >> That's why Title Five put put the ability to provide a deed restriction. >> I'm sorry. That's why Title 5 has the
language about a deed restriction. But my point in looking at the sewer flow is you have a direct correlation that the stated number of bedrooms versus the flow and you can easily extend that to houses with on-site
um septic systems. So >> and then what would the purpose of that data be? to show that the regulatory presumption that >> under title five >> under title five >> aren't correct >> are overestimating
>> are overestimating. >> Yeah. >> So the problem is with the state regulation. >> It's not not necessarily um because this the state >> understandably wants to make sure that septic systems are adequately sized.
Um and and from my experience uh and the demographics of the town of Chadam, they're significantly oversized. Otherwise, Chadam would never have regionalized from the Haritch. We'd have a full
school system. We have 7,000 over 7,000 residential units in the town of Chadam and we have handfuls of kids in the school system. Eric used to be on the school committee. Um there are fewer and fewer kids in the
school system every year from my understanding. And uh and so now if these houses are fully occupied year round who are in these houses um
certainly there are a lot of work from home people now residing in Chadam but they don't have a house full of kids >> right near they well 20 year olds maybe but >> well let let me let me ask you I understand what you said let me ask you
this question um Like I said, we thought this was more a refinement of pre-existing rules. What specifically specifically in here do you do you find is um uh has changed significantly and and that you think is unfair? U just to
help us sort of look look through here. >> Well, in the uh the whole house count, >> yeah, then that comes from title five and that and that's kind of that's kind of a check, I guess, on bedrooms. >> Well, one sentence is from title five.
The rest of that paragraph is town of child. >> The rest of the paragraph meaning >> under section five whole house room count. >> Yes. >> So that first bullet point that's the only part that's from title five. >> Yeah.
>> And then the second one total rooms including bedrooms, living rooms. That's >> that's town of Chattam. That's not in title five. And then the the rest of of section five is all town of chat. >> Yeah.
uh the statement about an open concept design that >> right then I think that that is something that's new with the because we see you know be you know the that's the great room design with multiple and that comes uh from what some other towns have
done actually to try and look address that but u I would agree that the open concept is is something added on uh from from the old uh rules >> we seeing a lot of houses with an open concept design. >> Well, yeah. Now, absolutely.
>> So, uh to say a kitchen room, dining room and living room that is is that is entirely open now becomes three rooms under that uh nine room count provision. the total house. >> Well, it's with it's it it's the caveat
u the space divided by a small dividing wall, half wall, pillars, built-in cabinetry, other architectural features that protrude into the space that actually comes model left of what some other towns have done to try and get a handle on the the big great room in terms of house size. But okay, thank you very much.
>> Um other people, you have you have some comments, the woman in >> Yeah, >> excuse me. somebody online. >> You want to recognize? >> Yeah. Could we get someone online? >> Um
>> Sean Riley, >> Mr. Riley. Good evening. Sean Riley with Time Bond. Um just want to echo my concerns of of where this the basis of this is coming from. I can understand if the basis was that we're seeing an
expansion or uh an increase in uh total wastewater flow within these systems. So maybe we're seeing a increase in failed systems because they're under design or we're seeing evidence in water usage uh exceeding amounts. But I haven't really seen anything to Dave's point um that
shows any data that to to back up the fact that we're not calc uh calculating bedroom counts correctly. As far as the the the writing within the leg regulations, I I do have some confir concerns about the definition. Um a
degree of privacy is um it's always been that you know if you could walk through a room to get to another room, it didn't afford the degree of privacy to be counted as a bedroom. And I still agree with that. Um >> well, that that continues. If it's a pass through, um it doesn't count as two bedrooms.
There's only that's only one bedroom. If you if you pass into a bedroom through another bedroom, that's not two bedrooms. That's one bedroom. That's that still exists. >> So, if you walk through an office to a bedroom, then that office doesn't count regardless of whether or not it's
enclosed by walls or it has a a cased opening, >> right? It wouldn't count. >> I just I don't read I just don't read that way to the bedroom. It doesn't count as a bedroom. The office. Okay. The other thing is I know that we we've constructed a number of houses
that have very large walk-in closets. >> Um, and whether they're off a hallway or they're off of the bedroom. Um, if they're not off of the bedroom and you don't have to walk through the bedroom to get to the walk-in closet, which I've seen those designs, um, they definitely afford the privacy, but they're a
closet. Um, and they're big enough. They're big enough to be a Title Five, uh, you know, room, uh, 70 ft. That's the other thing I don't see is the square footage amount um the minimum square footage in a bedroom definition uh in here either. You could have a
closet that could be considered a bedroom. Um as far as these this definition goes, I think you're on the right track. Um but I think this needs a lot more work and and I think you're hearing from uh the professionals in the room that we're more than willing to work with you to um to parse the words
and and make this make sense uh for bedrooms. But again, if we don't have the data to back up, you know, the reasoning behind uh providing additional bedrooms in these in these houses other than you just have uh you know, these short short-term rentals where people
are stacking people in and exceeding, I think that's more of a zoning issue than a than a um a board of health issue. if there's no evidence that uh the the daily flow is increasing on, you know, the bulk of these homes in Chattam. Um that's that's all I wanted to say. Yeah,
I think the square footage uh criteria is in some of the other regulations. We we don't have it in ours, but that's something we could look at, but the the size is actually pretty small. Uh but the pass through room is clear and that's um I think is in this as well. Um
the super large closet a bedroom. We I don't recall that we don't have windows. So >> they could >> Yeah, >> they can. Yep. >> That would be some We haven't come across that. >> Yeah. I don't I don't recall we've ever
called a large closet a bedroom >> and then it's it's screwed as a room as well, I believe. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. But uh >> well Judy knows that I >> your recommendation about a a specific square footage. I think that is in some of the things we looked at and there are
numbers out there. It's a pretty small number actually, but we can that's something we can think about adding in the pass through. >> I've never had an issue uh with with arguing bedrooms with with Judy, but um you know at some point I'm going to retire and and uh someone's going to take Judy's place as well. though. Um I
want to make sure that that person that's that has the same degree of um intelligence making those determinations. >> Well, that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to make it easier for everyone. >> Yeah. Um Okay. Someone else online.
>> Thank you. >> Thanks, Sean. >> Yep. >> I don't see anyone else with their hand up right now. Oh, yes, sir. >> Uh, hi, Chris Cannon, architect. Um, >> what's your last name again? >> Canon.
>> Canon. Okay. >> So, uh, you know, there are a couple things that that stand out to me. I mean, one I, you know, I I think you're you're right to uh be looking at some of the the issues of uh like the size of a window, but it you would do well to look
at the Massachusetts amendments to the building code because they're different and they're also far more specific. And I think if you're going to talk about lofts, you have to talk about ceiling heights. If you're going to talk about windows, you have to talk about the height above the floor. Um, you know, I
do see a change in here of the uh 72 in or greater, which that's a new one on me if there's a full bathroom next to it. I've never heard that before. So, it does seem that this is getting more restrictive. Um, I think one of the areas where I see the biggest uh I I
deal with these every day um with this issue. It's the first thing that we deal with other than walking through someone's door and trying to figure out do I go to the side or the front. um it's how many bedrooms can you have? And so we have to guide the process as architects uh to get us there and to uh
to inform these people. And if we're shifting the thinking, we need to know and uh I did get uh this from uh your health department. Uh they they were kind enough to provide me this. Um, but one of the areas where I, you know, I
think it's, um, we see the most rooms is above garages, whether they're detached or or attached. Um, we see rooms and in the past way that's been viewed is if there is a toilet and a sink, that's fine, but the minute we put a shower in,
it becomes a bedroom. And that's been a really nice way to approach it. Um, it, you know, I think a lot of people use these, uh, for lack of a better term, they have their man caves over their, uh, uh, over their garages. You see a
lot of that. That's not to say that people don't abuse it. I'll tell you, absolutely they do. And they do it behind my back and they do it behind your back. >> So, uh, I would say the deed restriction is a great approach to that that maybe allows you to somehow police it over
time. Um because I can tell you absolutely they do. And I just look and I know because I've looked on the at the real estate online and I can tell a house that's a fourbedroom that's being sold as a five. I can look at the pictures. You can look at the pictures and see the
doors that have put on spaces that aren't allowed to have doors. Those are the exception. Most of the houses are not that way. And most of the people most of the houses are are underserved. you know that they're four bedrooms and two people if if that
living in them and they're probably not even living in them 6 months a year. So, you know, I tend to agree with everybody here. Um but if you're going to go to to this, you have to be, I think, almost more specific um than you've been because you're still leaving some room
for uh for us to read things in. The way it's worked has worked beautifully. I'd recommend leaving it that way. We understand how to guide everybody and we're the ones doing it. And unfortunately, it's not you doing it. It's it's it's us. We have to be the
ones to talk to people and guide it. I can tell you right now to to this point that I think Sean made about um closets. You're about to get Judy one of my plans and it has a room that's 6' 11 and a half because the room for is a bedroom
when it's 7 feet according to the code. So, I made it six foot 10 and a half just for that reason. It's a closet and it will likely be used as a closet or, you know, a desk for the person that's that's living there and wants a home
office. It's not a bedroom. So, we have to play games to get get us there. It's I' I love things being defined. That's great. So, I'd appreciate if you do define it. I just don't think it needs to be more restrictive than what it's been. It's been pretty well defined. It's just the
specifics have never been there. >> Um yeah uh I think in in this in this uh document it has uh the detached structures you know it does have the statement that if it lacks
uh heat or a toilet. So you don't you don't have to have a shower but if you have a toilet and heat then then it can be considered uh you know a room. Um, >> yeah, I read it if there's a toilet that it it would be a bedroom. U if it's detached if I'm not mistaken.
>> Um, >> yeah. A bedroom >> if it lacks a Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, and and that's not the way we've been treating them. We we do a lot of them, >> right? Well, it's obvious to us, you know, we're not architects, but
>> you are designing to whatever the rules are, and that's legitimate. >> Absolutely. We put everything in front of Judy. We have lots of talks and you know and she's been great at guiding the process and we adjust accordingly >> and and Judy's been a part of this process but yeah you talk to Judy and
then things get worked out a little bit and then we see something final that >> she's already said that she thinks it's okay that's how it's worked pretty much. What was the first thing you said though we should check in addition another >> Massachusetts amendments to the code because as for instance you have uh
>> the building code the building code >> yes yeah I think it's the 10 >> Massachusetts amendments to the building code >> yeah because Massachusetts is very specific when it comes to windows as a for instance you have a 5.7 square ft uh we have 3.3 in the state of
Massachusetts so you know not that I want a smaller window to to be a thing. Uh if we put a big window in, you know, if we put a normal size window in, we're never going to get to 5.7 in the state of Massachusetts, >> right? Some of the rules are a height
and a width and not a square foot. >> It's the height and the width are are about the actual sash and the opening. >> Okay. All right. >> So, it's just you have to be be almost more specific with things like that. >> Yeah. And but I'm just saying that we
have different codes than just the international codes. And you know, >> well, I will say being more specific helps us because when we look at something, it's easier for us to figure out if it's a bedroom or a room or what, >> right? But rooms also have ceiling
heights and we have to consider that. And particularly when we do lofts, uh loft spaces very often don't have they don't meet the criteria of being a room. And so I, you know, I applaud the idea of the health board being in sync with the building department. That's been a
problem since time began. U so if the two are in sync, it makes our jobs a lot easier. >> Yeah, that has been uh the Yeah. the assessor's database and the health department's database don't always match.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Thank you very much. >> Thanks, Chris. Um, someone else online. >> I don't see anybody else. No one else in the room. >> Uh, somebody else from the room have a
comment or question? Um, any comments or questions from the board about uh, Right. So then at another time what we'll do is sit down and talk about what we've heard today and then um see how we'll go about uh >> so you can process from close the
hearing >> close the hearing. Oh, okay. Nothing more about this, then we'll close the hearing. We take a a vote for that. >> Um >> to close the hearing, >> I think. No. Okay. >> No need to. >> All right. >> Um >> Okay. Thank you. So, we can go ahead and
uh uh close the hearing on the Chattam Board of Health Regulation determination of bedroom count in residential dwellings. And when I call your name, uh say yes. >> John Beckley. >> Yes. >> Dick Edwards. Yes. >> Ron Bumman. >> Yes. >> Joanna Cal. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> And Noble Henson. Yes. >> Okay. So, the public hearing is closed. And we have a set of um minutes from December 1st, 2025.
Anybody have any additions or comments? Otherwise, we can get a motion to approve the minutes. I move to approve the minutes. Second >> and I'll take a voice vote. John Beckley, >> yes. >> Dick Edwards, yes. >> Ron Browman, >> yes. >> Joanna Cal, >> yes. >> No Hansen, yes.
>> Okay. And then, um, any other >> So, we can put this back on the agenda for our next meeting to have a follow-up discussion. >> Follow-up discussion. Yes. >> Well, okay. And I would say that the the
complaint we heard and I think sometimes it just is makes things more difficult and it's not necessarily getting to the end but uh a method of uh notifying these people with enough
time in their mind reasonably to uh be able to come in review the regulation and come in and and have some actual input that helps us. It doesn't help us just to say they don't they think it's overreach and they don't agree with it. It needs to be some specific things that
we can deal with. So, we may that may be the I I don't know if you can just go to >> I mean it's not >> building department the list of all the builders and whatever the town that's I don't know I don't we'll have to think about it. >> Well, yeah. I really I mean we've always
notified we we don't usually send out if they have a variance before us then Judy we all notify them when it's a p when it's a hearing to continue everything it's on our agenda every time. Well, I think >> what I'm thinking is not what I'm thinking what I'm thinking is not
>> it's not >> uh doing what's legally necessary, which is what we've already done, >> but it's what >> might help them in terms of which is why I reached out informing them and and that's just more or less a courtesy
on our part to be as open as possible, right? >> But we have already fulfilled the legal responsibility hosting this open hearing. So, we could go ahead and vote this through right now, but we're going to I think we'll step back and >> Yeah. >> What's that? >> For a regulatory body like a board of
health, we is it is in our favor to over a period of time to build email groups, mailing lists, etc. of of of >> which we have. >> Yeah. of of of groups of of interested
parties that we do business with and that we regulate and we rely upon >> to just have that built and available as a way to give a heads up if something's u coming up. I just I think it makes
sense to do it if we I can't you know over time and and that should be our our our best policy in my opinion. the the the comments that were made varied from, you know,
we really don't need this definition of a of a bedroom and we should just use what the state what the state has u uh to the you know, we're overreaching dramatically. Um and the and and the question in my
mind is is there's no requirement that the board of health limit the um extent of this regulation to to just what the state applies. I mean, we
can exceed the state's requirement if we feel that's appropriate for our town and if we and and so that's that that that point. uh the idea about just accepting what
the architect writes on the on the plan as being, >> you know, true and fa and and that the homeowner will never use an office that has a full on suite bathroom. >> I think I made that point a couple times a shower, you know, and and his view is,
well, if the wife wants a bathroom, then she can have a bathroom in it, but it's still an office because we say it's an office, >> you know. I mean that that playing us for the fool. I mean, you know, we really need >> to look at these plans and determine
what the true intent of these plans in terms of how how not we're not trying to read what's in someone else's mind, but we look at the physical part of the room with specific criteria and and yes or no because we
can't judge intent on someone else. Got to talk about potential >> potential >> potential. So when you have a a newly designed and installed septic system that with a four bedroomedroom house, that system has got to be designed to accommodate up to
>> the amount of flow that would relate to those four bedrooms being occupied. true in real life probably um the vast majority of septic systems
are underused. They're under be because of that reason. You know, you you design to potential and and but that's you you go to any state in the country, you're going to find the same overdesign aspect and it's
prudent because it helps protect the environment. We're designing for the Fourth of July week basically. >> Exactly. >> Right. I mean, this is a unique community. I mean, this this is a a >> unusual >> an unusual community with a lot of uh of
of visitors uh during three or four months of the year. And um we have to we have to think about that. Um >> okay. Well, I think we'll put it on the agenda. I'll see if I can get um
>> business to weigh in again. >> The sewage flow also >> I mean are the connections to the sewer? >> We can discuss this >> representative of the of the >> it's on the agenda. I mean >> the total the the the total town or are
the connections more in commercial areas and and large streets? I mean, there are a lot of connections to sew in places like uh down by the beach, you know, where that's where all the short-term rentals are. If you're saying, well, the shoot
the sewer flow hasn't gone up, but you haven't connected 80% of the short-term rentals, then that that that number doesn't mean anything. >> Yeah. I mean, David's suggestion about gathering data, measuring flow and and
then and then graphing that against bedrooms and seeing whether it's up or down is I mean that's the data we'll never have. It means nothing will ever get done. And um in a way I asked him it's what he's asking us to do is to
investigate the basis of the state's title five regulations with bedrooms and septic systems and all that. And I mean that's just not something we're going going to do. >> I mean I could certainly try and get that data but like I say I don't know that point of it I didn't even get to I
think it's >> I think it's >> because he's just trying to say that it's a rabbit hole. You go down you never live you never max out these houses. It's true as far as flow. You're you're designing for two people per you know two people per bedroom per day. So
you have a fourbedroom house. You're assuming that, you know, 365 days a year you're going to have eight people in that house, right? which you're not going to, >> but you may have >> 12 or 14 people in that house on, you know, for three weeks in August or, you
know, so >> so the other thing that I was struck by was there and I think they were they were they were saying it to make their point, but they viewed this as a wholesale new drastic expansion of bedroom definitions. In my view, and I
may have to go back and review things, it's more of a clarification of what's already in place, not a change in substance. There may be a couple little extra tweaks like the law thing, >> uh, which has always been sort of illdefined. Um,
so you know, I think I have a feeling that this is maybe the first time in a while they've sat down and actually read this whole thing and they don't think >> I would like to sort of for my own edification >> pull out title five regulation as they're written and see what that says and then go back and we have looked at
all this over the last six months but I don't remember it all >> you know exactly how we arrived at this but we went through all this. John >> Judy, are you going to be able or are you going to be able to try to summarize what you heard what we heard tonight
from the various commenters? What >> between Andy and I, we should be able >> I guess I think it's >> identify the essence of >> the specific things that they raised. I mean, the in general, well, it's you've gone way too far in a big change. But it when they go right to the loft, the
ceiling heights, some of that stuff is in other things we looked at like square footage, ceiling heights, it isn't in here. >> Um, >> yeah, >> but the real specific questions they have that we can look at, get and dig up the information and then and then review it and be, you know, >> right? >> Okay.
>> My sense is that they're not happy with the existing. Some of them are because >> they think it's unnecessary. It's unnecessary. >> I don't think these rules are that much different than what already exists. Lofts is one little addition. That's it.
>> But they're not happy with what already exists. >> Yeah. And this degree of privacy, I think that's in the other ones is so um but >> and the whole and the whole bedroom. I mean the whole >> I mean I have to say too like Chris
Cannon said you know him and I would work things out and then sometimes they would come to you and you wouldn't like what I you know based on the regulations that they written because they have a on suite double sink bathroom in their office you know I mean
>> but they they somebody implied >> okay >> that their discussion >> I mean I get that >> that somebody implied that their discussion with you never led to a change in the design, but that's that's not true. >> That's not true from my experience, what I know about it. >> Um, not true.
>> And the discussion about the great room, >> you know, that that the that >> sometimes >> a great room that has a kitchen, a dining room, a living room, and maybe another room should only be one room. That would allow an like a sevenbedroom house,
>> you know, on a half an acre of land, >> you know. It it it that that's crazy to just say a room this size that >> well the loft thing that gets tricky because >> but called one room >> you lifted some of that from the Hangingham regulations. >> Um but the but the other point was the
difference between the word shall and presumed in terms of the total room count and how it works. I I don't I I I didn't understand that there was a difference there. I think he was talking more about what came later, >> but the the actual count the actual
count the total number of rooms divided by two rounded down that's the presumed number of bedrooms >> that means that's the number of bedrooms that officially would be counted if if it's more than the than the bedroom count >> my thought on that is why can't we leave
the wording that we have and then put a notation parentheses and then refer to the option for there to be >> sure you know in other words just include that deed restriction. >> Yes. Just put that in, you know, for re,
you know, just mention in some brief way. >> That's the kind of thing we can do. >> I mean, all of these that come to the board of health are getting deed restricted anyways. >> Yeah. And I >> but I don't always do that if it's just an in-house, you know, Andy and I looking at it. We won't always require a
deed. Sometimes I have in the past, but I've gotten away from that. But >> but if he wanted if he was troubled with the wording >> yeah we can go back we can add a little parenthetical >> I don't think it won't change the intent but we can >> right they won't exactly >> um
>> but this document >> basically this was covered in the nitrogen loading regulation before and this is a sort of a new document derived from what's in >> in the two regulations right >> in in the two regulations are the are
the references to bedrooms the same basically. >> Yes, they're exactly the same. >> And so that's the town's current >> bedroom count. And then and then there's a state >> there's a state definition of a bedroom count. >> This is our the subsurface rates and
this is the nitrogen. >> This is the current definition of a bedroom. >> I can we'll give this out. We'll send this out to you. the current definition of a bedroom in the regulations and then the state has their definition of a bedroom. >> Right.
>> Right. It would be nice to see what's in the state thing or is it too long to look at? >> I have that here as well. >> Well, the building code you're you talking about the building code or the >> title five? >> Title five definition of bedrooms. Maybe you can get that to us so we can sort of match
them up. >> We'll send those to you right away and get a real good clear idea of how this is different than those. we refresh our memories to use a George Bush term and um and then uh because we have discussed this over such a long period of time I
forget the progression how we how we how we get here >> because we we this is not new >> right >> so anyway so we'll have we'll get it on the agenda and we'll get that information and then we can review it and we can talk about it and figure it out and then I guess talk about getting
more input because you know the the toughest criticism is when somebody comes in and say it's >> going to be on the agenda. >> There was no we there was no um >> want it on January 5th. >> No um communication lack of communication. >> Do you want it on the 5th or do you want
more time or do you want it on the >> 12th? >> I think we need a bit more time on >> the 12th because that'll because it we're not going to >> I was thinking of canceling. >> We have a lot of time off. >> We can if you want. >> We don't have anything on it. >> Well, if we don't that would we might as well. that's the holiday and if we come
in just for one little thing and it makes no difference if the person requested the variance or whatever. Sure, >> we could we could cancel it but get that information so we can all study very hard for that meeting. Yeah, >> I can do some tweaking too based on comments and stuff like that. And
>> and I think this I think the last architect cannon >> Chris seemed the mo not seemed very reasonable and evenhanded and was kind of on both sides and going through things that would he might be very helpful to get more information from. >> Yeah.
>> Um and then other people are just sort of globally against the whole thing. That's hard. The guy from Eastwood Hoe who disagreed with the guy >> the guy from Eastwood Hoe Eastwood >> Holmes who disagreed with the guy in the green uh about about whether change
whether or not whether or not you really have any short-term rental issues. >> Well, that that person is more than a guy. He's he's a fairly prominent person in the so we listen to what he says. >> I know he is but he he's still on the record. Can I get a motion? >> Issue.
>> Can I get a motion to close the meeting? >> I have a mo Yeah, I have a a mo I'd make the motion that we adjourn the meeting >> and a second. >> Second. >> And then take a voice uh count. John Beckley, >> yes. >> Dick Edwards, yes. Ron Bman, >> yes. >> Joanne Cal, >> yes.
>> No Hansen, yes. So, we are ajourned. >> He was offent prominent.