Welcome to the board. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Good afternoon. Welcome to the board of health meeting of May 19th, 2025. Please note this meeting is being recorded and will be available shortly hereafter for
scheduled and on demand viewing on any smartphone or tablet. If anyone else is recording the meeting, please notify the chairman. Pursuant to Governor Healey's March 29th, 2023 signing of the acts of 2023 extending certain COVID 19 measures adopted during the state of emergency
suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law until June 30th, 2027. This meeting of the Chattam Board of Health is being conducted in person and via remote participation. Every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings as
provided for in the order. A reminder that people who would like to listen to this meeting while in progress may do so by calling 1508-945-4410 conference ID 964646240 or join the meeting online via Microsoft Teams through the link in the
posted agenda. While this is a live broadcast simalcast on Cadam TV channel 8 and 1072, despite our best efforts, we may not be able to provide real-time access. We will post a record of this meeting in the town's website as soon as possible. And I'll turn the meeting over
to our chairman, Dr. Noble Hansen. Uh, thank you. It shall be the policy of this board to conduct its meetings under the open meetings law so as to encourage public participation whenever time permits and as part of agenda item discussions. And we have four uh items
on the agenda for today. But first, let's establish a quorum. And when I say your name, please say present. Carol Boyce, present. Joanna Kale, present. Noble Hansen, present. So, we have a quorum. And we may have one late member.
Uh first on the agenda is a continued discussion and review of revised transfer facility regulations and proposed refuge hauler registration form requirement. So we've been working on transfer uh station and uh waste from
other towns and there's three separate things we're doing. Uh the first thing uh Judy has worked on and given us an an example of changes to strengthen up the registration form for the commercial haulers. The previous form didn't really
say much and we we had talked about um having a very some very specific language that was maybe even a little redundant to make sure the point is made to the haulers that they're only hauling trash from Chattam to the transfer station. and you all should have a copy,
but I'll just quickly go over the there's five things here. Um, this is for the commercial trash haulers. I the undersigned attest to the accuracy of the information provided in this application. I affirm that a licensed commercial refuge hauler. My operation
will comply with the requirements of the Chattam Board of Health regulations regarding the Chattam transfer station solid waste facility. All waste commercial and residential transported to deposited at the facility was collected and or generated within the
boundaries of channel. Another one, waste will not be mixed with waste from other towns. Uh and then last, I understand that failure to comply with the board of health solid waste regulations could result in the for forfeite of your
license to use the town of Chadam transfer station. So uh this is the the commercial hauler application form which is handled by the health department. Judy usually takes care of this and this is a form that she um generates and and can do this on her own. So um first is
there discussion from other members of the board about about those. The intent is to make sure it's perfectly clear that that the refuge is just from the town of Chatt. I don't have a copy of that. You don't. Did do you do you have a copy
of this, Joanna? I do. Yeah. Okay. Um that's that's it there. And um Oh, you have one. Yeah. Excuse me. Yeah. So, I think that um but this will be on the yearly um
application form. The renewal date, I believe, is in December. Um but we can discuss this today. If there's no controversy or questions, I think we can just go ahead and give Judy the okay to make those changes. Judy, you may want to It's It's an online application. It's
very easy to just um change. You know, a lot of our applications have such similar types of attestations for different reasons. So, um we can add that in and we'll start renewing uh our haulers licenses in usually November,
December. The their licenses are up at the end of December. So, usually in November, we start renewing them. And then I believe Mr. Failey had asked that he he could have a list of all the commercial carriers. Yeah, I think I sent him one at least. Yes. So, okay. Um
I don't think this requires a vote. It can just be if there's no discussion quick question. Yes. On the ODA complaints, how long have they been going on? you know, off and on for years really, but um last summer um
we had we had a few um and just I think the concerns have been about the um the condition of the building itself and and as you know that they're working on they've got funds approved to rehab that building. So that
hopefully will help quite a bit. So, but I would ask you then if there are any uh comments from the uh audience or uh online just about this part uh of the sort of beefing up the application form and if there are none then we can
just sort of agree to go ahead and let Judy make the changes. Okay. Yep. We'll take care of that. Anyone online? I don't see anyone. Nope. Okay. So I think um that will help a lot. It
means the driver has to get out. Well, this is the application. Okay. Then um the the next thing we're working on um is something that the board of health has to do by having a public hearing. The board of health
writes the board of health solid waste regulations. We write them. And to amend them, we have to have a public hearing and go through that process. But what we want to do is um require that all contractors um coming to dump their waste, the
commercial haulers, uh sign in at the gate a sort of a check sheet saying that all that material is from Chattam alone. And each time they come, they would have to hop out. They get weighed anyway. So, it's really 30 seconds more. They pop
over to the um guards, the gate house, a sign up form saying that it's Chattam waste and then they're off. Um and that may be putting a lot on the drivers, but the drivers will relay that to their
um owners and then and then they can make make the adjustment. That's the thinking. Um and uh that is just something for us to discuss today. And if there's no no change no
um there's if there's agreement that we should we should move forward on that then that is something that Judy will have to work on and set up the public hearing and get the exact language for changes to the regulation. Did I don't know if Rob has any Yeah, Rob had some concern about the time in the summer maybe. Did you want to speak to that? I
think we should let him address it. So, they have to get weighed anyway. Yeah. Thank you. And the regulations now say um what's the wording? It's um they have to get check in, I think. Yeah. Logged in. Loged in, which is interpreted as
being weighed, but we're adding that they have to actually check the thing. So, I I see it more of an issue now, but as we just recently got approved for the the funding to redo the recycling area, um we'll be doing uh some modifications
near the gate house. So, the scale will be immediately adjacent to the gate house going forward. So, nice. Um so, to be able to have like a driver side interaction right with the window of the gate house. So, once we do those renovations, it'll be really simple. It'll just be a transition period between now and then.
And this would so we're we're thinking mainly of the garbage haulers, the garbage trucks that you see, the commercial ones, but then there are also commercial haulers that bring in demo debris and that kind of material as well. And and do you are you interested in interested in checking that that all is also just from Chadam? Yes, but they
don't necessarily require a special license. They come in, we we ask them weigh them. We do and staff asked them is this generated in Chadam and they and they do. But if they were to sign an att testation, I think that would be a little bit of a stronger enforcement. Right. So I think the our regulation now
they have a demo part and then a weight. So we would include that on both of them. Right. Okay. So I think that's pretty straightforward. Um and then the the last thing is and Judy has put
together a letter um that uh we are it's a draft letter that we would be forwarding to the select board in support of Mr. Phale adjusting the fees and um I'll I'll just kind of briefly read it not all the fees but what what it says. Uh the board of health has been
reviewing the issue of commercial haulers use of the Chattam transfer station. The board became concerned for the following reasons. Odor complaints um which came up particularly last summer. A lot of it has to do with the floor which is going to be fixed with the with the next section but um also
the volume um to other communities namely Brewster and this was key. We learned last summer name Brewster does not accept commercial weight in its transfer station. So all the refues picked up in Brewster has to go somewhere.
um and the transfer station's inability to check incoming loads for town of origin. We're addressing that with the regulations. Now, the next paragraph, the board of health is recommending that the transfer station fees be raised for commercial and construction demolition debris to match those of surrounding
towns, therefore eliminating the incentive to bring the waste to Chattam. And then we have a chart and basically what it shows is the the Chattam charges per ton are about at least for the the waste is is half of what the surrounding
towns charge is about half. Um and Haritch which runs a regional transfer station. So the Brewster trash could be brought there is is about twice as much as ours. So there is there is a financial incentive for for them to
bring the waste to Chattam and it's very difficult to check where it comes from. So that's been a concern. Uh and uh this is something that the select board would have to um change and our
letter would be in support of Mr. Failey as he goes in front of the select board and I believe that uh Mr. Bailey has has a lot more to add to the fee structure in the transfer station and what might be done about it. Yeah, if I may approach, I've got up some paper copies. It's just a spreadsheet of some proposed
rate changes. Thanks. So, if I may, I'll just walk you through the the spreadsheet. Uh, so on the left hand side is the just the description that's on our brochure, uh, the one that we published at the transfer station that
has all the different categories of of waste. Um, if we go down the list, uh, Brewster, uh, I went through the three adjoining towns. Brewster, Orleans, and Harwitch. And that's basically what their current rates are for each of those. It's not always an applesto
apples comparison because they may not have the exact same descriptors, but I used the information that I had uh that was available. In the blue column is Cadam's existing rate ch what we charge. Now, I wasn't proposing any changes to
the sticker or recycling fee costs. These are basically a reaction to what the market is charging us to get to dispose of all this material. So, we're trying to be reactive to what it's actually costing
Chadam. I think there are about maybe a dozen individual rate changes and I'll go through those individually if that's what the board prefers. Sure. Okay. So, the first is just 9 to 11 bags. Um, we have three different categories. People
who don't have stickers, we charge them um by the by the bag, basically. So, one to three bags is $5. Four to eight bags is $10. And once you get up to 9 to 11 bags, it's only $15. I just wanted to raise that to $20 because there could be a lot of weight in 9 to 11 bags. And we
do pay for it by the ton to get rid of. Second category is something that we charge currently, but it's not listed on our brochure. It's not a separate category. So, that's just something I wanted to introduce. And that's for televisions, monitors, computer towers, etc. We currently charge $15 each for
those. And I just wanted to track that as a separate item. Commercial disposal, we currently charge $90 per ton. Out of pocket, it cost us
$10742 per ton. If you include hauling by a third party hauler, our costs are $135 per ton. And I provided a lot of that background information uh in the columns to the right. I'd like to raise that to $175
per ton to match Haritch's fee. You can see it's still less than Orleans that charges 240 per ton. And as you mentioned, Brewster doesn't take commercial refues. So the $175 would be the $135 out of pocket. Plus, we just bought four
new trailers at over $400,000. Um, brakes, tires, wear and tear on the trailers. That all be needs to be replenished. Um, so this would be kind of a slush fund to help us rebuild some of that. Uh the next time we needed a new trailer, we'd actually like to
have a fifth trailer for the summer volumes, but right now we're limited to four. Commercial single stream. Currently, we charge $110 per ton. We pay $121 a ton to get rid of
it, plus our own trucking costs. So, I'd like to raise that to $150 per ton. What is commercial single stream? Some of the haulers collect mixed intermingled recycling. It's not
separated. So, we have to send it out to a facility and they separated there. But this is what what would come in in the garbage trucks that would Yes. But it's just it would just be recycling though. It's recycling. Yeah. Okay. So, like the glass, the metal, the plastic is all
comingled. Yeah. And you see a lot of towns don't even accept that. So, this is kind of a unique situation for Cheddam. Going down the list a little further, um, upholstered chairs. Uh,
there could be some weight there. We only charge $5 for an upholstered chair. Uh, but some of them, uh, are quite heavy. We'd ra like to raise that to $15 per chair. Demolition debris, that's a big one.
Currently, we charge $190 a ton, excuse me, and we pay $196 per ton. It's interesting. We just signed a or we're just in the process of signing a new contract with our vendor, a three-year contract. The price is going
down $6 a ton. So, we're going back to $190 a ton, but the following year it goes up to $200 a ton. And the year after that, it goes up to $210 a ton. So instead of coming before the board and the select board every year, I'd like to
just raise it to $225 a ton. We still have a lot of labor involved with handling, breaking down larger demo material, uh putting it in the dumpsters and things of that nature. So it is pretty labor intensive. You can see Brewster and Orleans already charged
$225 a ton and Haritch is at $25 a ton. mattresses and box springsings. I'd like to raise that from $30 each to $50 each. We used to charge when it was $30, it was $8 for us to get rid of those
mattresses. We had a lot of problems with that vendor and we signed on with a new vendor. It's now $21.50 a ton. We get over 1,400 mattresses a year in Chattam. For a a community the size of
Cadam, that's a very large number. If we have a rejected mattress because it's moldy or wet, it cost us $90 each to get rid of. So, I'd like to build a little bit of capacity for rejects and just the handling and
trucking. We have to handle it sometimes two and three times before we dispose of it. I'd like to add a new category for crib mattresses. We often get complaints that people, you know, a crib mattress is so small, why are they paying the same rate? Um, it's just because we don't
have another category to capture that. So, I'd like to just charge $10 for crib mattresses. Typically, crib mattresses we dismantle on site. We take the springs out and put them in the metal pile. We take a lot of the other things apart. So it is labor intensive but it
just goes in with the normal municipal solid waste. Um three more left. Bear with me please. So sofas uh we have a category sofas and sofa beds. Um you could see the sofas we
take in last year we took in 225. Sofa beds we only took in 25. If I were to guess, I would say the majority probably were sofa beds, but people weren't being honest with us because they wanted to pay the cheaper price. So, I'd like to just level the playing
field, and all sofas are $30 a piece. Maybe just combine those into a single category. Um, large truck tires, we charge $15 a piece. It cost us $20 a piece to get rid of them. Like to
charge at least the $20 a piece so we can break even. And the last category is something that's not listed. That's fire extinguishers. We currently charge $2. It cost us $6 to get rid of them. I would like to upgrade that to a $10
charge. Everything else um is pretty consistent. I think we can hold tight on all the other rates. Right. Thank you. Yeah. So our our interest with the issues that came up were was primarily the commercial disposal and the demo. You kind of
broaden it to a lot of things I suppose. Do all these things come under our um all all the categories of waste are in our solid waste regulations but we don't set the fees. So we don't set the fees but we so we have an interest in all of this that you're talking about. Yep. So
we so if we generate a letter in support it should include some with language that would encompass this whole thing I guess. Well, yeah, we just we support increases, I can take our chart out and, you know, and just say we support the
the um changes that Rob is going to be recommending. So, instead of listing them all because I'm sure you're going to have to do the same presentation for them. So yeah, I mean it's the select board that sets the fees, but what we want to do is is write a letter to the select board requesting from our
viewpoint that the fees should be increased to match the other towns to take away the incentive. That's the first thing, right? And then you have a second goal in making it costwise fair. Um but uh now other questions or
comments from the board and and then I'd ask Mr. Failey, have you had a chance to look at the letter that that the demo the draft letter that Judy put together? Did I? I'm not sure if I've seen that. I I Okay. Well, I basically read it and it
but it includes the example fees from the towns and then the two other things we're doing as separate paragraphs that don't really have to do with you directly, but is there anything that you would like to see in our letter of support that can help you with what you're trying to do? If you could just
reference the proposed rate changes, I think that would uh that would carry more weight in front of the select board. And we're currently trying to uh have a public hearing in front of the select board at their June 10th meeting, June 10th. So the rates could go into
effect on July 1st. All right. So um three weeks or so, correct? Yes. And we need two weeks for a hearing. So that'll be when you present your whole thing to the select board. Correct. Okay. And then they should have our letter and then we would probably have someone be
there represent office if there's a question. Yeah, would take volunteers. I'm just kidding. Okay, so June 10th. Um Okay, that sounds um that sounds pretty good. Um anything else, Judy, that we
No, I think that covers it. And I I mean to us with you know the fact that Brewster B just closed their transfer station to all commercial haulers. So I imagine there are other towns in the state that have done the same thing. So I mean you
but that raises the question and the fact that our rates for the basic waste is half of the surrounding towns and there's not a real good ability to check where it's coming from leads us to think um we need to firm that up as best we
can without uh that's what we've tried to do. Um, I'm going to be meeting with Rob um and one of his staff people tomorrow and also Carrie from the county um to talk about transfer station issues and
recycling, but also I'm going to talk with Carrie about looking at our rags and see where we can make some changes. Carrie from Barnesville County, the the solid waste um woman that spoke to us. Yes, she's the very coordinator for C
Cape Cod. Um, and she's quite knowledgeable and very helpful. So, so we can I can review this letter um and and and share it with um with Rob and you and then we can send it out so we get it out by the end of the month.
Right. And then if you make some minor modifications, does it have to come back before us or can you talk about it? If you guys are comfortable with that, I can share it and if you have any comments, you can let me know. Okay. Other questions? Questions or comments from the board or questions or comments
from uh the public? In the room. Nope. Excuse me. You need to come up to the mic if you're gonna tires. Did you say? So, we've got different categories of
tires. So, small tires are $5. Um, regular size, you know, passenger car tires are are $10 and large truck tires are $15. The only ones we would propose changing are the large truck tires because it cost us more to get rid of
it. Um, okay. I think that's that's a good plan. Okay. Thank you for your support. Appreciate it. June 10th, so hopefully they'll move ahead. Okay. Thank you. And I think there are
some changes there, too. So, that'll be interesting. Okay, Rob. Thank you. All right. Okay. Uh, next on the agenda is definitive subdivision plan review
for William Franklin and Marie Franklin, 48 Silven Way, lot 29. Paul Sweetster, land supervisor and Mr. Swezer. Swezer Sweeter,
if you can just sort of present the what's happened here, the case. Uh, you'll need to be up at the um the mic. The uh Sorry, Paul. Yeah, I wasn't sure whether that was on
or not. Jump around from town to town. So, yeah. So, anyways, uh what we're trying to do is we're trying to come up with a road layout to divide two lots on this property. And we've come up with a plan
that we believe the planning board is going to go along with. And we already have one house that's already constructed in there and it already has a septic system and everything else. And we're proposing a second house. And what we've done hopefully you've got the plans there for
uh showing a house location septic and trying to make sure everything complies with the uh title five. Okay. And um so Julie, let me ask you. So this is the definitive subdivision. Y is it was there a preliminary subdivision here or
it's not necessary or how does that work? We we had an approval not required plan that went in front of the planning board, but the problem was there was a culde-sac that was shown on the recorded plan, but it really didn't exist. So we
had to come in and create a definitive plan. Okay. Paul, do you know how many bedrooms are in the existing house in the existing house? Six. Six. Okay. How's that for an
answer? That's sounds about right. I just if you if you you're going to have 70,000 square feet more than that in the new lot one. So, you still have to abide by our nitrogen loading regulations, but since you if you have six bedrooms,
you're under that. So, that's good. No change would have to be made. Um, and then the new lot would have to would not be allowed more than six bedrooms. Actually, one minute, please.
We never got No, I think because this is a div subdivision plan. Okay. So, on lot one we had 71,211 square ft. Lot two, we have 65,441 square feet.
Good. So, the existing dwelling is going to remain, right? And that already has a septic system, right? That already has a system. Yeah. And then, uh, there'll be a house to be built on lot two. And then, do they come again before the board when they have a plan for the septic system? Not necessarily. Only if
they're asking for a variance. Right. Right. Okay. So, most likely they won't be coming before you. And each lot has Six bedrooms. Yes, they're very large lots. 1.5 acres. So that's like 60,000 one bedroom for
10,000 square feet. So Yep. And then do you review the plans to make sure that they only Oh yeah, I review all the plans and then it comes before the board only if they're asking for a variance, right? Yeah. Otherwise, you approve it. And when does the soil
testing formal soil testing with data have to be done? Um they new septic system it it's done in you know in the months before the the um the plans are drawn up and the time subitted. So we usually go out you know it could be up
to a year before but have we done any testing out there? There is on the uh on the plan there is soil test logs. Okay. They were done in 2024. Okay. Yeah, I thought I thought I kind of remember that I think Lucas went out.
So, it's generally all sand in that area, I believe. So, right. So, this is coming back again. Yeah. Okay. Uh, other questions or um issues and any um comment from the
public or in the audience? See none. Uh okay. So um Judy has reviewed things and she's has recommended for approval um of the definitive subdivision
plan. And if there's no other questions or comments, maybe we can get a motion. I'll make a motion. Motion to approve the definitive subdivision plan for 48 Silven Road and a second. Second. Yep. And then
um I'll take a roll call vote. Uh when I call your name, please answer. Carol Boyce, yes. Virginia Kale, yes. Joanna Kale, and Noble Hansen, yes. And John Beckley has just a member has just joined us. So
um you get part of the quorum and we'll we'll get your voice on the next one I guess John. Okay. So you're that's is granted for you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Uh yeah. Uh and I John Beckley has
joined us on the board. So uh if you want to call your name, say yes and you're a part of the quorum. John Beckley. Yes. Okay. Um, and the last we have modified definitive subdivision plan for Alan Perau and Joan Perau 79 Forest Beach
Road, East Southeast LLC. And uh, that is here to present the case, I believe. Good afternoon. That Eldrich G Southeast with my intern Paul Carlson to see a government meeting in progress. We were before you a few years
ago with this one and uh, we're now flipping it. So, we had a 30,000 square foot lot to the north, a 40,000 square foot lot to the south. Everything was endorsed, and then the client said, "No, I think I want to change my mind. I want
a 40,000 to the north and a 30,000 to the south." We hadn't made it all the way through land court yet because they had a technical difficulties that were going on. They were going for a modified subdivision, so we kept the land court
file open with them. Uh we'll be back before the planning board. Other than the shared driveway that was going to extend from Forest Beach Road to the Southerntherly lot, everything is the same. And obviously the 10,000 square
foot change between the two lots. That would be four or five bedrooms to the north where it's a three-bedroom house or and three to four bedrooms to the south where there's nothing at the moment. So, if there are questions, I'm happy to
answer them. Um, so Judy, I ask you what what's a modified definitive subdivision plan or that? So, when you do a definitive subdivision plan, that's a bigger filing. Um, we're modifying that that
definitive subdivision. It's almost like doing a new subdivision over again, but changing everything. you basically change the lot lines to we could have finished the land court process gone back to the land court and done this under an approval not required
plan and not been before you because of of the ANR um but because we were still in the land court process we we chose to go with a modified so we wouldn't have to double file with them okay so and and um so
when we're approving that the the lot is uh although lots are acceptable for a sept a septic system. Yeah. And then now there's there's a proposed dwelling. Yes. Now, are we dealing with that right
now? No. No. The planning board really wanted to see the proposed dwelling or a proposed site plan. And it's we've seen this in a few subdivisions before. Um because of the storm water questions here. There's a low point in the road that always floods. Judy's lane was
paved without any real review. Not this Judy. A different Judy. Not my lane. Uh the neighbors added a catch basin at one point to help take care of those problems. The town tennis court of all things contributes more storm water runoff to this area than than anything
else. And because of those problems, the planning board really wants us to look at how do we make sure that this lot doesn't contribute to to those storm waters. So when you get ready to deal with that, you you'll bring the septic system plan to Judy in the future and she'll approve it and if it needed a
variance for some reason, then it would come to us. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Can I just ask is the access for this lot going to be off of Bobby's lot. Bobby's and Judy's. Y So it's going to kind of go up into that
lot or Yeah. The design that we had Yeah. It went up into the lot and it was kind of a walk out to make it work. The Peralts were looking at this as their retirement home. They've been living in the historic to the north. They renovated that. They were going to sell
it to develop to the south, but they really didn't like the the layout that they were getting here. They really want that single floor living for for their retirement years. And it just wasn't lending itself to that with the hillside. Yeah, there's going to be a
steep hill going up. We'll have trench drains in order to capture the storm water runoff. And we'll have a different plan out there. That was just a placeholder. put a rectangle down and and get it going.
Just out of interest, do did you have to get some special permission to make uh access off Bobby's lane? No, this has rights within Bobby's lane to begin that. So, okay. What is lot seven? That's the
road. So, under the land court and and roads are weird. Who owns the road? And unless you designate a specific owner of that road, it falls under a weird statute called the derelct fee statute.
So in this case, we wanted the option to be able to retain interest in that road or to be able to convey it. So under the land court, we had to designate it as a lot. Weird rules and but I guess there's a reason behind
it. Okay. Um, other questions or comments from the board? And u so if once they build on lot six, then they will come back to Judy and she'll get to review all of that. And any uh comments uh from the public or the room
on um subdivision for 79 Forest Beach Road? Nobody online. Okay. And Judy has uh recommended approval um for the modified definitive
subdivision plan for 79 Far Beach Road. So if there's no other discussion, can I get a motion? I'll make a motion to approve the modified definitive subdivision plan, the 79 Forest Beach
Road, South Chadam. Uh, and a second. I'll second it. Okay. And we can take a a vote. Uh, uh, Carol Boyce, yes. John Beckley, yes. Joanna Kale, yes. Noble Hansen, yes. Okay, so you're all set. Have a great
afternoon. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. And um next on the agenda is a continued discussion and review of revised bedroom definition. And Judy has put together a
um whereas before the bedroom definition kind of was within a bunch of regulations, she's put together a separate quote policy for determining bedroom number in residential dwellings in the town of Chadam and it's based off a little bit what's done in other towns.
Judy kind of put this together and maybe do you want to comment on what you've done here Judy? Um, so what I did, you you you indicated at our last meeting that you liked the Hangingham format um because it was very um narrative driven and kind of, you know, a description of
of different rooms and how they saw them. So I basically took their format. I I changed it a little for our benefit. Um, the only thing I'm I called it a policy. So, I'm I'm not sure how I would add this type of
language to our existing regulations. So, um I I guess that's something that we I have to figure out whether we're going to just do this as a policy and from now on um all all bedrooms will be looked at
based on this policy. Um the other thing I I don't know if this can supersede our regulation definition which has a lot of the same stuff in it. This is just more descriptive. Right. This would be part of our nitrogen loading regulation and
our and our solid wa uh our um subsurface sewage disposal regulation. Right. Um but it would require u definitive language public hearing and then we would vote for both regulations. this wouldn't as a policy have to figure
out how to how to insert it into it. So this is like a preliminary discussion I think right now because it's complicated. Uh we we want to um firm up how we define a bedroom maybe be a little stricter sometimes. Um it's not easy language
wise. Uh so I think today any questions or discussion about the different elements of it will be a help. But we'll we'll talk about it more down the road. And I I'd like to get Dick Edwards. I know has has an opinion about this sort of thing. He's not here today and Ron
Weiser was uh the one who particularly liked the uh town of Hangingham one which is a good template. So we would like his advice too. So I'll just I'll just kick it off. One thing that jumps out to me is in the in this bedroom and
then there's a number of things. It has this phrase a degree of privacy, right? You know what's the definition of that? And when I think about Thinking back, looking at our plans, we we have a room and then there's a stairwell coming up to the room and there may be a little
banister on it, but it's kind of all by itself. But we say because of the hallway and the and the stairway and the banister, it doesn't have privacy. But this idea of what privacy is, it's hard to define. But, you know, I think sometimes we're too liberal with with
saying it doesn't have privacy, so it's not a bedroom when really it's going to be a bedroom. Um, right. It's it often comes up with the rooms over. It's interesting that this one they don't get any more explicit either. Degree of privacy. That's right. From the Yeah, I didn't. Right. So I mean it I think you
can write a regulation where there's some degree of discretion based on what you look it but the hard thing for me is you have to be consistent. If you do it one way you got to do it the next time. And then the the engineers and the architects I mean they are designing
right to our rules. Yeah. To maximize what they can offer their clients. I don't begrudge them for that but I mean that's that's kind of what happens. But any questions or comments from from the board about the language? It, you know, requires a study in a way. Does the Hangingham document use the same
phrase, a degree of privacy? Um, I believe so. I think I have I think they did. Yep. That's that was all exactly the way they had it. And how long have they been using their document? Um, I'm not sure. Is this new or is this
2019? Mhm. since 2019 and and so this is what they've been working with. They call it a guideline. So, but they haven't so suggest to me that it works. Okay. They've been Yeah. I actually had
somebody calling about a a permit for town and I talked to them and um he was on the Hingham Board of Health. I asked him to change something on a plan and he said, "Oh, I totally understand. I was on the Hingham Board of Health." And I said, "Oh, funny. We're stealing your
bedroom definition." Um, well, I like the other thing I like is he got it is it this first paragraph that's purpose. It it explains why we're why we're looking at bedrooms and what we're doing and what we're thinking. So, if there's some discretion, degree of privacy at the top
of it, there's a kind of an explanation of of what of what we're trying to deal with. Yeah. The context. Yeah. Um, another thing that jumped out to me is that, and I don't know if it's in our other regulations, but if if more than if it's a basement and the room is more
than 50% above grade, you know, on a slope, then that's considered can be considered a bedroom. Sometimes we look at a basement and it's we just you just see the basement, but you don't necessarily know the grading on the outside, right? Is that in our
regulation? Um that's that's part of um title five state regulation. State regul Yeah. Because it's emphasized here. I guess you have to have egress um windows and sometimes they kind of get around the egress stuff by putting in well
window wells um with big windows. Are they considered that legal for egress window well if they meet the the well it's basically five 5.7 square foot opening right? Um and that's the egress. But if it's below grade, it still
doesn't it wouldn't be considered a bedroom if it's more than 50% below grade. More than 50% below. But it's not uncommon to have uh have it be on a slope where the front is right below grade in the back is above grade because we we've seen um sliders and walkouts and everything, right? 50% or more floor
space being above grade. So, and then if and if once we once we have think well it's a basement, we say it's not a can't be a bedroom. But this broadens it a bit. I think um and then it's in in a detached
structure like a detached garage with a room above you. What what do you need to make that a bedroom? And in these regulations say you need heat, a shower, and a toilet. So you don't need a full bath, but you you can a shower and then
that that's enough to call it a room if it's a detached structure or a garage. Relax. Um these three features if it lacks one of the following. So heat, a shower, or a toilet. The only thing I'm I'm not sure
about this one. Lucas and I were talking about it. So it needs all three basically. That's another way of saying the heat thing is kind of an issue because what happens is they build pool houses that are unheated and then we go back and they're being rented out for short-term
rentals and they've put up put splits and they've gotten you know they've added heat. You we don't know about that. They can get a plumbing permit to do that without us ever knowing it. So, I I'm not sure that that's, you
know, that is in the the housing code. You have to have heat in for in order for a room to be a bedroom. So, if it doesn't have heat, technically we can't call it a bedroom. But, we might want to think about that section. Um, I think a
shower and a toilet, if it has a shower and a toilet, it's a bedroom regardless of whether it has heat. And we could probably just say that, you know, because they're going to add heat after the fact if they say it's unheated, particularly in a world where the the
rental, right, industry has been growing leaps and bounds and um short-term rentals really don't need heat, I would think, if they're they're in the summer. from May I think it's
it's May 30th through there's dates that they're not required to have heat, right? So yeah. So yeah. Um but there's a number of things that can be done after the initial inspection to to to you know
quietly change the inside of a house to provide more bedrooms and probably it's being done. We don't we wouldn't know about it except short-term rentals. Are they has it been decided that they they are going to be required to have a yearly inspection that's proposed, right? Or it's passed? No, they're they're um Karen's inspecting now. Not
all of them. She But isn't the state saying you have to inspect them? Oh. Uh yes. Yearly. Yes. Well, and it's passed. The language is kind of funky because it says um at the request of the owner. Um so, and it has to be and it's only um
nonowner occupied. So we have to kind of drill down to what that means. What does owner occupied mean? So how much time during the year like say someone lives there for 6 months and rents it out for six months. Is that owner occupied?
But that's the language in the in the new housing in the new building code. So that's the their requirement to have a um building inspector go in um once a year for every short-term rental. Right. And they did they are
going to be hiring somebody the the building department to work with us. Yes. Presumably. So so the rent the short-term rentals may well be inspected every year but a private home but nobody goes back in and inspects it later on really unless I mean you do you ever do
that or wait time of transfer? Uh we don't I mean Karen is going she's trying to do them once every three years. So, so she's trying to do a third of them this year and she's she's done. And when a home's transferred, is it inspected by the board of health or the building
inspector for bedroom counts? No. No. Right. So tell me, refresh my memory on what the state did in terms of a new requirement for they basically said that every
short-term rental has to be inspected by a build a certified building inspector, which my in housing inspector is not and cannot be because she doesn't have a contractor's license. And so this became essentially an unf unfunded new state
mandate. Yes, exactly. And it is it proposed or is it law now? It's law and the town in the new budget put in a position which got passed last week. So there is a a new position for a new building inspector that will be credentialed to do that. Right. So we'll
be working through a program to work with them on these. is how will the funding how will the the fees be allocated between that program and our program in terms of the
I mean we'll probably increase our fee our registration fee it goes into the general fund so okay but somehow there ought to be a reflection in the wording in our I mean if the inflated fee is
going to be reflected in the border health regulations or the border health, then there ought to be a notation that this increase is related to and driven by unfunded. The fee incre the fee is
stipulated in the reg our regulation. Correct. $50 in our regulation. We kept it low. So, we're going to have to have a hearing. Fe was 150 in order to increase the fee. I don't think we were increasing the fee. It was being increased by the town. they want to but it would be through our regulation but
the reg I'm saying the wording whatever the wording is in our regulation relating to fees should be reflective of the fact that this fee yeah if we double up the fee that's quite a big jump so has to be explained this fee is
going up because of a new statewide mandate so those will all be things that we'll be working on I would think in the next six months or so the fee increase. We have to approve that. It has to it's in our regulations. So the town unless they
decide to do a separate fee through town is asking but that's kind of so the town basically is asking us to increase the fee. That's the idea from 50 to 150. So you say 100 Yeah. I don't know the extra $100 is is is a consequence of the of
the inspection that is now required by the state. Something like that. Yes. Exactly right. Um but Somebody people have said you say there's a thousand short-term rentals and you're inspecting a 10,000 homes per year. Is that even impo is that possible with one person?
We'll find out. Right. And like I said, it might not be a thousand because if they're owner occupied and we have to figure out what the state means by that. Okay. So there's a work in progress. So it definitely is. But yeah. Now the other big aspect of this this document
um highlights and I think sometimes we forget about it the whole house room count you know above a certain number of rooms you know you take the total number you divide by half and that's the presumed number of bedrooms it's not it's you know you're it's it's presumed
that you have that many bedrooms just by the size of the house. It doesn't allow you to have that many. it it it presumes that the house size is equivalent to so many bedrooms and so you can't you can't do it if you don't have the right septic board. I got to say I'm still fuzzy in
my brain about when the two methodologies take precedent over each other. Well, I put I put an asterk there. So my asterisk says that the board will use the largest bedroom number determined either by
whole room count or strict definition as noted above to make final bedroom count. Okay. Well, I didn't clearly read that. So um so that clear so that I mean because I think that's kind of what I've been doing so far. Um it's better to
have it reflected in it says overnight. So it means that we count the bedrooms by design with our rules and that's how many bedrooms it has. But if you have a, you know, three bedrooms in a house, but then you have all sorts of work rooms
and playrooms and offices and then there's over nine rooms, yoga rooms and this and that and that that comes up to 12 rooms and you divide by 12 that's six presumed six bedrooms. means your three-bedroom septic is is your your
house design is over what's allowed for your septic system. Right. Correct. So, it's it's a separate count from the bedroom. So, they're not like and there may be other times two separate ways of of counting things. There may be other times when we count more bedrooms than then they're saying, "Well, if you
divide it by two and it's still only four," and we're like, "Well, yeah, but that's five. That's a real way to create a little grid, a little calculation grid, and then that Well, it's it's I don't think it's that complicated. It's total. It's nine rooms or more. Yeah.
You divide in half and then you if it's, you know, 4.5, you drop down and that's the presumed number. Um, and then but you know, so if you have a three-bedroom, three official bedrooms, but you have this great big
auxiliary roommed house and it and it comes up to nine to 10 to 10 rooms, you're presumed to have five. The house is too big for that septic system. And basically there's nothing you can do about it except to redesign the house. I guess
you mean the when you say it's too big it means that that size house is presumed to have like for example it exceeds five bedrooms so it exceeds what's allowed for the three-bedroom septic. Okay. So the house could be reconven though you have just three
official bedrooms you're presumed to have five because you have all these auxiliary rooms. So a change would have to be made in the design of that house to not But this this this way of counting is not new. It's sort of in there. We haven't really paid much attention to it. It's been Yeah. But I
think when you start talking about basement rooms 50% above ground is a room and then their next section it's it is counted as a room or whether it's counted as a bedroom or not. Bedroom. Oh, it's a room. Yeah. Right. As a room.
Yeah. Because it's bedroom and rooms. This is rooms. But when the other thing is the great room, okay, kitchen, dining room, living room, great room. That's one room. But they have put in some
extra things. If you have um you know in an open concept design where the large space has a small divided wall, half wall, pillars, built-in cabinetry or other architectural architectural features that protrude into the space or obstructs normal movement within the space and produces a defined visual
demarcation that should be considered separate rooms. So in other words, you have a great room, but you have a kitchen counter that comes out that cuts off the kitchen area. And you can say the kitchen is a room and the rest of it's a great room. If you have pillars that run across or a half wall that
sucks off the dining room, now you have three rooms. You can say three room. Now I don't think we have thought of it that way but now they can design around it but I mean right um so if it's all wide open like this room
even though you have four rooms by these regularly one Yeah. by the Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't I mean most people don't want that type of a right thing. And then and then the other thing that comes up is a loft. The loft you see that the loft um
they have open lofts you know where the whole wall is open to downstairs and that I don't think that well and then um a loft with a stairwell. This this says the stairwell has to be less than five feet wide.
And that this is a little confusing. Yep. This that's for counting it as a room, I guess. Yeah, they to count it as a room, right? So, if you have a narrow staircase going up, it is a room. But we also say earlier that it's
considered a bedroom. An odd shaped on page one, an oddshaped or distally located room that meets the prior bedroom definition is a bedroom. These atypical circumstances may include a room over an attached garage, a basement room that is majority above grade and
has natural light and ventilation, lofts with limited access, finished attic spaces or storage rooms. And then I added uh what the definition of finished is because again people are kind of you
know putting in rough plumbing and electricity and calling them unfinished and then just going in and finishing them after the fact. So, um, right. And then, and I the other thing I I keep thinking we look at plans and if
you have a staircase that goes up into a room, we we say it lacks privacy. So, it's not a bedroom, but coming up from what room? From a hallway or from another room? If you have to if it's a bedroom that you have to walk through to get to Oh, that's
different. Yeah, that's different. Yeah. Um anyway, so but it gets gets confusing it. Um yeah, you have to read this. So through so I think that so we you all have a copy of the Hangingham one and now you
have Judy's um um draft but Judy's draft reflectionates the Hangingham keyed off that to some extent. It's pretty much the same. I just added a couple little We'd have to dig asterisk and then then there's the language of a bedroom
definition in our current title five a current um nitrogen loading regulation. We have that other other right. So I I guess what I need to do is is consult with town council and find out what the best way to incorporate this is. If I if
we do it as a policy, can that supersede or can it be an addition to our existing definition which includes isn't you know this it's got to be cross referenced somehow right in the legally adopted documents. So I I would like to I'm guessing it's he's going to say it's
part of the nitrogen loading regulation. So it's a regulation addendum so it's got to go through a public hearing and I don't know which we can do. I mean that's I don't know but yeah I mean they call it a guideline. And I suppose I could ask them how, you know, how do you what do you call it? And how do you get
it legitimate? What it's going to be called, you know, what's the right how formalized does the adoption and the acceptance have to be for what it's named based on our regulations too. Right. Right. So and I
think it's something you have to look at and think about how we have looked at plans and so forth and decide what is a reasonable way to put all this it's not automatically you know you don't it doesn't come right away you have to study it a little bit so I think this is
a discussion we'll have bring it back again with whatever extra information we have I think Ron has something Ron Riser has something to contribute and Dick Edwards I know has been talking about this Ron was the one that I think this pretty much I think everybody I think it
does. I have to I'd have to look through it again but I think yeah I think this is it's just how we want to incorporate it is the big question at this point. So I need to I need to do a little more. But we'll we bring it back here so these other members can can contribute as well. Oh yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Well,
we're gonna have to we're gonna have to vote on it one way or another. Question your comments from the public. Anyone in the audience want to comment? Oh, okay. Um All right. So, that's good. That's That's No one online. That's a
pretty good start. Let's see. And um Okay. So, um uh public comments, future agendum, agenda items, requests from anybody or from the public. We'll have a Milh Hill update.
That's there's a process going on there. And um no, I I do need to and I haven't forgotten about putting the um airport back on the agenda. Um and then I've also started looking at some of our IIA
data um our innovative alternative systems. Um, I pulled out a whole year's worth of data and I'm not good at charting things and such, but I think the big question there, you know, I was looking at like what the
median is and the numbers. They're not as bad as everybody thinks. The IIA systems, we had to report one study, right? The IIA systems is it shown that one works better than the other. Now, they put in the one that's least expensive. Does that work significantly
less well as something that's more expensive? How much more expensive? So this is a discussion we can have because a subset list of the state list that that this town the state yes we can and the state we you know we can talk about this at a hearing but or at a another
posted agenda but there is um a best available technology um category in title five and they haven't they haven't determined that there are any best available technologies but they do recommend too
specific that are getting as close as they possibly can. So, we could talk about that. Not only how it performs, but how do you factor in the cost aspect, right? They're probably more expensive. And then I think the board needs to also think about um the fact
that we're sewering and is it that's a very good is it really something that we want to, you know, flip over at this point. So, exactly right. So, yeah. So that'll be a discussion although the sewing dates are go way out pretty much
but uh I don't know if we there is a plan though isn't it approximate dates for the anyway we can talk about that for the sewing and then the airport yeah what's their plan what's what's the end point um and uh for the lead out okay good
good all right so then we can um deal with the um minutes from April 28th anybody have any um additions, subtractions, uh corrections. I'll make a motion we accept the um the
draft minutes of April 28th, 2025. I second. Okay. And we'll take a vote. Uh Carol Boyce approve. John Beckley I. Uh Joanna Kale I. No Hansen I. All right. And then
I guess we can adjourn the meeting and I'll take a voice. Uh Carol voice. Yes. John Beckley. Yes. Joanna Kale. Yes. Noble Hansen. Yes. So we are adjourned.