e e e e e e e e e w good afternoon this is a hearing of the
CH Conservation Commission being held on April 2nd 2025 in accordance with the Massachusetts Wetlands protection act in the town of Chad Wetlands protection bylaw and regulations my name is Karen Latin and I serve as the chair today's hearing is being broadcast live on
Xfinity channel 1072 is being recorded for the on demand archives available on the town's website it's being conducted in person by phone and by video conference the agenda instructions on how to attend and copies of documents for review are posted on the town's
website to all participants whether attending by phone or online please remain muted unless you've been recognized by the chair when recognized please identify yourself for the record if you are attending by phone you can mute and unmute by using star six if you
are online and you are not a commissioner please keep your camera turned off unless you have been recognized indicate that you wish to speak by using the raised hand feature so we have a record of a quorum I will now ask each commissioner to indicate
their presence Vice chair Elise Gordon Janet Williams pres Cheryl misseri I do not see and I don't see that she's online okay uh Eric Hilbert here Bob Delia present John H Paul Johnson
present and I'm here we've established we have a quorum so before we get into the agenda is there anyone who would like to make any announcements comments or have future agenda items for anything other than the properties on the agenda today
I don't see anybody indicating uh I actually have something I would like to have the commission consider in the future I'm sure people saw in the chronicle the article about Orleans and Native plantings on Town
property not trees but shrubs and all and I was thinking that it sort of piggybacks onto our new tree regulations on Town property and thought maybe this would be an opportunity for us to consider something
like that where we on Town property maybe it's not 100 they're going for 100% native I'm thinking you know maybe we could you know follow our 75% native or something and I think it's a great
opportunity to have the public learn how nice natives can look and consider them for their own properties so I would like to put that on the agenda at some point anybody else that's a great idea
um and it's a good timing since we're looking at the regul the tree regulations anyway that's what I thought so having a hearing that Focus you know part of the agenda that focuses on that maybe we can get some photographs of some really nice fully native uh installations and show people
how that looks and it has not yet passed because Orleans has not had their town meeting and I don't know if it will but it's sort of triggered the idea that maybe we would want to consider something like that and it's may be an opportunity now that it's been uh
highlighted in the chronicle for another town so anyway um before we begin the agenda um Paul are you doing the are there any announcements of continuations thank you madam chair good afternoon Commissioners there are no
requests for continuances on the agenda today perfect and so at this point Paul Whitman chadam conservation agent will lead us through the agenda uh thank you madam chair and uh Katherine Ricks our assistant upstairs she'll be sharing documents if we need to do that first on
the agenda is a submitted field change request the address is 34 scattery Road uh owner 34 scattery Road nominee trust map 161 parcel 32-2 the EP number se10 3669 project is raise an existing house
new uh construct a new house outside of our jurisdiction with pool patio and walls and modify existing Land Management plan the field training excuse me the field change request is to conduct Vista management activities that's the project hey how are you hi
everyone this is Matt lonberger with Wilkinson ecological uh speaking to our um project at 34 scattery um so like Paul said this is a field change request to um remove a total of three trees um there's one
Cherry further up the bank near the house and then two smaller English Oaks um these are going to be replaced with seven Cedars along the side of the property there um and we're also proposing to remove I think three limbs
on one of the larger oak trees and do rotational pruning on the large Willow at the base of the Hill um I'm happy to answer any questions anybody want to start I we'll let you start or oh thank
you um can you explain why um they all need to be removed all those trees the three yep so the Cherry one is right up
in the middle of the view corridor pretty much dead center in the middle of it and then the two Oaks that we're proposing are younger Oaks um so they're going to be in that view corridor eventually our line of reasoning there
is that if we get them now while they're younger we won't have to come back in later to do either you know coping the tree regularly or um having to come in and remove it at a later date so this is all part of our effort to set up that
space to be as hands off as possible uh in the future don't they have a bit of a view corridor already if you don't take out those trees I mean if you just pulled in the few Corridor lines a little you
would still have a view um I don't know it just seems like it's a a large area um I'm just concerned you've you
know we've allowed so much more to be done and now we're being asked for even more so um Yep this is uh we were unable to
officially ask for a view corridor until the house was finished being built So This Is Us asking to have that added to the plan and I'm not opposed to The View Corridor I'm asking if it could be made
smaller um bring it in so it's not quite as wide at the bottom and then you're losing less trees I'm just asking so I'll let others chime in go ahead
Janet first of all um the regulations that require that view corridors should not not be or can't be applied for until the construction is complete is there for a reason not only just to see what the actual view is but in this case
because the hardscapes not done it required us me to climb up and over and across slippery steep slopes that are muddy and a cup stairs that have big deep holes here that we had to I literally had to climb on my hands and
knees to get across some of those it was really dangerous to try to scale up there and get on that patio so we could have a look at the view so that that that put me off from the start but at any rate secondly this this View Corridor
exists because and you probably remember this because you were called in to fix the unpermitted tree removal that happened under the previous owner before they put the property on the market to sell um so all that area that that blue
area in the center that is the restoration area that you proposed and that we approved is where those trees there used to be trees all through there so by virtue of restoring that area entirely with shrubs they've
already have the benefit of a pretty significant View Corridor and standing up there you know once I got up to the top of the mountain and stood on that patio the view is pretty spectacular so I have to agree with I I I strained to find the two Oaks way down there at the
bottom and they're so far down the bank that they're even even they're hardly there it's so Steep and it's so far away I just don't see how they're going to grow up into blocking that view from the patio the Cherry okay it's in the view corridor but it's you know again the
regulations say that view filtered views are what we're looking for not open views so I don't I don't see why um it's necessary to remove those and there are also by the way it's a about this has
got a tortured history and you know um but when this plan for the demolition of the house and the new house went on um we had to close out the previous order that restored that area um which we issued a certificate of compliance on
that but the certificate of compliance kept the view corridor requirements in as continuing conditions so they are still actually part of the title record um that the view corridor shall be permanently demarcated on the ground
blah blah and uh vegetation within the approved View Corridor shall be maintained according to the approved plans um so you still have they're still of record so um I don't see how this works with all
of that well this is us modifying the as you said the view corridor allows us to trim according to the approved plan trim yes so we are asking to get this officially part of the approved plan and
yes I again like I'm with Karen it's I think it was an oversight on everybody's part and when the last order um was issued that the view corridor disappeared from the plan it had been in the the restoration Plan before it disappeared so I don't have a problem
with with reinstating of VI Corridor um that's not the problem the problem is the maintenance of the vegetation within it um I can you know it's designed the concept has always been trimming things so that the a filtered view is available I think more than a filtered view is
available um and it does not contemplate removal of trees so the English Oaks at the bottom of that Hill will get 30 to 40 feet tall and they will definitely be in that view
corridor blocking the view the cherry tree that we're suggesting is is already blocking the view and it leaves out but to Karen's point which I also agree with if you moved the view corridor just a tad to protect those
three trees you still have quite a nice 50 area and you have the ability as we said you have the ability to work with branches rather than taking entire trees down in my opinion you don't take a young tree down
just because it's young and it's going to grow when it's in an area that is actually we could be quite flexible with in my my opinion I do want to point out that this plan involves planting
essentially an entire Cedar Grove on the property mhm and that those trees would be more than a replacement for what would be taken out they're native the English Oaks aren't native and
um it's more I think than you currently have on site and can I add that we we went through a lot of this about those those English Oaks you're like you we went 10 Rounds you're like Mohammad Ali you're coming out for the 11th round on this um
there are I mean by the time that Oak Gets In The View you might be retired anyway so you know hang on that Oak will never get in view I'm just looking at the plan it's at elevation 14 The Patio is at 57 so yeah unlikely that's the
point I I just my my opinion is I I just don't think the two trees are going to matter in the view it's uh you know it's one heck of a view as it is so I I have to agree with them on this presumably we could alter the plan
then to just be the cherry tree that is in the view yeah it's sort of interesting because previously we approved you removing trees it looks like
16 six or maybe those are the height no that's it yeah but6 yeah we approved you removing those the cherry tree was right around there yet you never asked to remove that one at that time which is sort of interesting that the other two
that are would have been in the view corridor were previously approved to be removed and now you're coming back to do the you know one more which is a little bit further in what you've drawn of the
view corridor but it's sort of interesting that we there are other trees that were previously approved to be removed and they were in that view quarter so just as an aside but Bob do you have anything I had a question on
the willow um keeping it low like that prune low to 18 ft will that hurt the tree um we'll specifically be doing the rotational compassing method so that it can have a full Crown without us having
to go in and essentially hedge the top of it um that'll be producing you know a full set of leaves and appropriate biomass for a tree of its size and Bob I had can we just ask can me just hold what's a diff how is that different from
topping what what is rotational cassing so that it preserves the crown right so when we're rotational cassing we pick a few leads on the tree that are doing well and we trim the other branches then as those move up in and the other trees
are regrowing we then come and cut the leaders and then the trees that had been growing or coming up into that area that way there's a naturalized canopy to the tree at all times without having to go in and do um like serious
compassing that leaves the tree stunted and kind of uh sickly looking we had we had willow trees significant willow trees in Connecticut where we live for 35 years and we had that work done to maintain it to maintain so that they didn't get legy
and high and and we didn't maintain them to an 18t height but um it was was very successful and the trees are still healthy today so so the Willows to get a view of that overflow water drainage ditch down
below I mean or the little pond that's down there is that the view we want no you still won't be able to see the Wetland from the house this is just to see the ocean to see the ocean okay anybody else
all right um I say I guess we have to have a motion if nobody else has any questions go ahead before we vote I mean do you want to talk about re revisions that might
yeah if wi the day or do you want to roll the dice and see how we vote if there are revisions that the commission agrees would be an improvement to this plan I can bring those to our client I don't how does everybody feel I mean I well by revision I mean removing the
removal of the two English Oaks yeah okay if that's the sticking issue for everyone that's mine anyway it's mine yep I mean I guess if you wanted to remove one black cherry I guess we could approve that but you know I don't want to
see we've approved a lot for this property and I get it they want to be have a view I think they have a view and so I I think if anything yeah the Oaks need to come
out um of the plan so it would be just the cherry and then you probably would modify your mitigation yep what about Eric and Bob are they
Bob Eric I agree yeah okay Paul is this uh am I able to ask for a continuance on this or does it oh yeah yeah absolutely oh yeah because you have to confir absolutely through the chair you could you could vote the revision that you
want you you I I believe I should definitely talk to my client and prepare a second I before we yeah all right so we have the 9th we have the 20 third I think the ninth might be a bit too
fast for you let's let's aim for the 23rd okay I move that we continue 34 scattery road to April 23rd 2025 second Paul I I Janet I Elise I
Eric I Bob I and I say I so we'll see you the 23rd thank you thank you okay the next Paul thank you madam chair next on the agenda is a request to amender in order of conditions this is a
phase one address 86 cpri Lane John and TMA Andre map 13c parcel C13 to EP number SC10 3550 project is construction of a garage addition driveway and deck
expansion expansion excuse me amendment is to increase the depth of the proposed addition by two feet within the existing driveway how are you afternoon good uh David Clark from Clark engineering on behalf of the Andre's um so this is like
Paul stated first phase uh looking to add two feet uh to the addition that's been approved nearly all of that two foot addition to the addition uh is within the driveway area um Mr Andre's has recently become
wheelchair bound and so this change is to accommodate an elevator in in the addition um one thing that we didn't add is not on the plan that uh talking with Mr Andre's last week um he needs a flat and
smooth durable surface in his driveway right now it's shell um so uh in talking with the architect um we're looking to to add to our request to change all or a
portion of that driveway to Pur concrete um it's been used in town a couple of times last time we proposed it was for the uh I think it's the Sixt at Seaside links we also used it at rers Co
Boatyard for an ADA space there um so I think that's an appropriate surface uh to use in this location it would actually provide better drainage than the than the the uh Stone and shell that's there now we wouldn't increase
the size of the driveway we um just change the surface so that will be on the plan if you if you allow us to go to a phase two okay thank you anybody have any questions Bob go ahead um how would that
how would the drainage become better David um would you add a would you add like a catch Basin or something no no uh part of the design for the the previous concrete um this is the cast in place
concrete um not the previous Paving blocks you have to provide a structural support which is usually uh inch and a half to to 2 and a half inch Stone um that that's approximately 8 Ines in
depth so uh hopefully once we they remove the existing driveway and whatever base materials there we'll get into some pous material naturally a curving perious material underneath and uh and and put the stone down and place the concrete on top of that so you'll
basically wind up with um over 12 in of of a very coarse substrate that will improve infiltration and not and and more importantly in the winter time it's not subject to freezing um
so we remain pervious uh even in the winter months okay thank you welcome I just want to add i' I've seen this done before at a customers's house of mine when I was in business and uh it was a very steep driveway to a garage and I
was amazed how well it it worked unbelievable uh it's a good product it it's it is amazing I went to a seminar at University of New Hampshire who the they have a program that that specifically tuned to uh alternative form very
expensive um it is but in this location but U yeah they uh they took a 55 gallon drum of water and dumped it in the parking lot and the water didn't spread more than 3 feet from the end of the barrel it just went right down wow oh
that's cool on yes on list is right next time we review that um if you are Paving the drive way just well doing whatever not not using
the stone and shell um does that change coverage no I didn't think so I just want to make sure because you're already in the outer AA 41.3 yeah so that would be an issue
um okay this is phase one so does anybody else have any questions comments then I think we can move this on to phase two uh when would you like phase two because you've got to do notifications
and everything we will we will file and and and get on the next agenda after filing so we we've got some more work to do before we have a plan that's ready to file so uh I'd rather not set a date now we'll just file it on fine get in the
regular schedule all right then we will just move that we approve phase one I move that we approve phase one of 86 Capri Lane second all I Janet I Elise I Eric I Bob I and I say one I
thank you thank you okay Paul the next one thank you madam chair next on the agenda is a uh request for a determination of applicability the address is 80 stage Harbor Road Town of ch M 14d parcel C1
r- 25-2 project is invasive removal and Native plantings and we have a representative from Bartlett here to uh go through the narrative hey how are you good how are you good hi Craig Scher Bartlett Tree Experts um this has been a
kind of long evolving uh process I would say over the past year so year plus um there's a pocket of area down by oyster Pond which many of you are probably familiar with or have seen it at this point in time which is an Ever growing area of um Russian olive and and shrub
honeysuckle Bittersweet and such um and it's overwhelming an Eastern red seedar inside of that you know lighter green blob and Once Upon a Time the town would regularly prune all of that material down every year um but those days have
kind of come and gone and so we're now just proposing that uh the invasive material will be removed treated no stumps removed and then replanted with natives great thank
you anybody have any questions comments this is one that is attached also to the mitigation for the easement at 500 Shore Road just so everybody's aware this is the the one okay and Katherine did you
have something yes so I assisted on this one and this is as you said the mitigation for the Shore Road which was about 1,000 sare ft but this is also going to include mitigation for the pump station down at 608 stage Harbor Road so this will be
mitigation for two projects um and be able to remove the invasives and plant some natives in this area thank you yeah I forgot to add that part I have a question go ahead so how how does that work are the
orders for 485 Shore and for the pump station how do you how are those how is the mitigation attached to those so that their record has shows that the mitigation was done later at this
location the 500 Shore is um it specifies that the mitigation will be taking place here so that is attached to that order um the pump station if I remember correctly and Katherine you can
correct me if I'm incorrect um is one of those where we said mitigation would be placed someplace at a later date right and we're trying to get to a point where the town doesn't owe us mitigation right
so it is you know it it is in this that um it's a part of that order so so will will some notation be added to that record that shows that when it comes time for certificate of compliance
someone's going to have to to look at certificate no for the pump station and the and Shore Road I'm just I'm just saying something has to be put in those files to say this is where the mitigation got approved I've just never seen this done before I love it I think
this makes a lot of sense just want to make sure that as a process it's uh um it works I do have a question for you Craig though so um this removal seems pretty quick um cut them down to about
four to six inches treat then cut them down to the ground and then plant that's a lot faster than we normally see removal of invasives and replanting with natives is this all going to happen what is the total time frame for this so I think what's realistic at this point in time is probably to do nothing for the
summer months um and and cut them down cuz herbicide it'll be effective but it won't be as effective and we don't want to be in there numerous times of course there's going to be a seed bank inside of there that's going to have to be addressed right and so I think that's going to become part of the the the
Walters across the street are interested in just participating to see this occur and and be a success um so I think with with Rick we'll be able to get him on board with having us in there to treat any any Resurgence but so the cutting
will happen in the fall then yeah initial cutting and then the planting of the Native vitation the following spring either I would think either the the following spring or maybe in this fall I mean I think maybe we're we're we're pushing it to get it right in afterwards but I don't see any any difference
really between putting it in the fall or in the spring I'd rather get stuff established and started sooner because we often see it expressed as that once the invasive has been managed to 80% then planting can commence sure this is talking about compress small area it's a
little that I can hunt and peack in there and take care of it okay what is the so so so the gentleman at on Palm Street and others why are they willing to because part of this traditionally they've well view once upon a time
they've got plenty of view and they do and Rick would say Hey listen I this isn't about my view this is just more about what used to happen traditionally for all the years that the town had been going in and cutting it um they were used to that and they enjoy the Eastern Cedar in the center and he likes Natives
and he sees the problem in front of him and he says why are we allowing this invasive Mass to grow and bubble out let's do something about it so okay great um um I'm we're we're beholden to him then so uh absolutely okay all right
thank you everybody else Bob hi Craig how are you good how you doing Bob good um so are you gonna be monit monitoring this area from time to time how and how often I well I'm by there every day um but yeah I'll be monitoring it you know
once it's once it's occurring and it's under my purview I'll be keeping a close eye on it so I mean we're going to have you know how are we going to water those plants after we plant them you know there's going to be a lot of logistics where Bartlett's going to be involved and I'm going to have eyes on it so okay
thank you yeah if I take ownership of this effort believe me it'll get it'll get done so I used to work for an old timer on Queen an and used to always complain about that Clump blocking his View uh because as you go up Queen and it goes up the hill a little bit there
and you used to always say can't you go down there and cut that down like no no you can't you can't do that I'm sorry anybody anything else all right I think we can go to a motion I move that we approve the RDA
for 80 stage Harbor Road second for for I think I almost got it without you I tried to whisper it's negative -2 right Paul correct thank you okay Paul hi Janet hi Elise hi Eric
hi Bob I and I say I okay thank you next Paul please next on the agenda we'll move into a notice of intent uh the address is 112 Independence Lane the uh applicants are Scott and insay Copeland map one excuse me map 13B
parcel dc5 D number se10 3727 the project is construction of a barn and a driveway expansion within the buffer zone to a bordering vegetated Wetland BBW that's the
project how are you good how are you Mike Tannis blue flax design based on the feedback from the commissioners of last hearing we've made a few changes to the plans uh primarily we've moved the mitigation area to the west side of the driveway closer to the
Wetland the client also requested that we remove the grass strips in the driveway so to which increases the mitigation requirement so we're now increasing the mitigation to 650 Square fet I substituted out some of the
smaller shrubs on the previous plan for larger ones that are more shade tolerant because of the location of the mitigation area and we are still planning we're still proposing to do the invasive removal in the old mitigation area but I've also
substituted out some of those plants because after an additional look there's still a lot of natives under the invasive vines that I think will come back once we remove those and we'll just plug in the gaps with a few Beach plums and the two
trees great thank you anybody have any questions comments I will say thank you for listening thank you to you thank you to the owner um I'm excited about this option so anybody
else I was also going to say thank you you really listened with both ears so thank you for that just to clarify so the the the part of the driveway going to the new part is still the same geoblock grass pavers yes but there was
going to be grass in between those papers and that's what's been removed no no um as mitigation we the existing driveway as you come in off of Independence y we were going to add grass strips oh in there okay and and we
counted that towards some of the mitigation uh or not towards the mitigation but um a reduction in uh sight coverage coverage okay um so now that that's been removed um that added plan shows the actual mitigation
increasing to compensate for that got it and I neglected to file our revised site plan so I have two copies for the record so that it it matches uh blue flax's plan okay thank you I got that digitally this morning so I was just looking at it trying to figure out where the uh change
happened so thank you for that explanation anybody else com mentss questions um then I think we probably can go to an order so how does the 23rd
sound because oh wait a minute let me check um you were approved already with zba correct this didn't required youb oh okay well special permit you were yeah you were granted a special permit on February 27th it
says that doesn't sound right I'm reading what she said don't know okay all right well but anyway you're you're all set with anything else so we could go
to I think the 23rd if that works yes okay I move we continue 112 Independence Lane to April 23rd 2025 for an order of conditions second okay I'm going to start this side
Bob I Eric I Elise I Janet I Paul I and I say I so we'll see you then thank you which oh yeah I know isn't that funny yeah I noted that okay Paul I'm sorry oh
no problem uh next on the agenda is a notice of intent 186 Strong Island Road is the address the applicant David and Judith uh Doo or Dono map 13m parcel 48 toep number SC10
3724 the project is to construct an 8 by 18in foot swimming pool and expansion of an existing patio seasonal roll roll out boardwalk and seasonal access access steps installation of mitigation plantings invasive plant
management and native plant restoration that's the project how are you good good afternoon everyone Teresa sprag with blue flx design um just I'm going to go over quickly the um changes that we've made um to the plan um just as a quick
reminder the overall project is as Paul just stated is a proposal to expand the patio and add the plunge pool um add a set of removable seasonal steps laterally expand the garage under an existing deck um Locate pool Mechanicals
under an existing deck add a mounted kayak rack to an existing shed and then add um Native plantings um remove invas of vegetation and restore the vegetated buffer um since our last hearing um we have received um our not take letter from uh
nhsp that was dated March 14th um in addition we've made some changes to the plan and we've also um submitted a request um a revised request for a variance so um the changes that we've made to the plan specifically are we have removed the proposed rollout
boardwalk and benches located on the Eastern side of the property we are going we are proposing just to maintain the existing three-foot wide Sandy foot path um that runs through the Dune in that area we have also
um we've also um reduced the the size of the patio so we reduced the size of the patio by approximately 79 Square ft um around the surrounding pool so we've brought that in tighter so that it's currently in line with the existing stairs on the new
deck um and then the question came up of whether or not we were at that or over that 35% um within the 50 to 100 foot buffer zone and we were just slightly over that 35% so with the reduction in the um patio and then we've reduced the
portion of the driveway by 100 approximately 104 square feet that goes into the 100 foot buffer zone so with that that brings us down to 34.98-ounce our request for variance to only include the seasonal um removable
staircase um and with that we have included um some images of what the homeowners are hoping to install um for these proposed seasonal stairs it's a 32inch wide aluminum staircase that will just allow them safe access over that steeper portion of the Dune um we're
continuing to remove um approximately 665 square feet of lawn in the northwest corner to plant that out again to um to increase the vegetated buffer but also prevent um people accessing and walking across the property to the parking lot
um just to the west of that um and the kayak rack we've made more clear we've also shared an example of the kayak rack it will be mounted to the back of the existing shed so there'll be no footprint on the ground for that so with that we're looking at a
total increase with the with the seasonal removable steps of 517 square feet um overall within conservation jurisdiction and we're proposing 3,162 Square ft of mitigation with lawn removal planting invasive species
removal and restoration um in the existing vegetated buffer um which is just about greater than a 6:1 ratio for mitigation so I am happy to answer any questions that you have about the revisions to the
plan anybody want to start start okay I have a couple questions about the coverage table yes so previously you had 10 in the ndz you had
176 square feet was the net change and now it's 19 that is because you're not doing the One path correct okay that's the rollup boardwalk and the benches that we've removed so then
previously there was no change in the outer Aura for the area of structures dwelling sheds decks Etc and now it's 9 square feet so there is a
lateral expansion of the garage underneath the deck and if you look closely at the plan pardon me if you look closely at the plan I shaded it in Gray yes it's just this small Corner within the 100 buffer zone that the garage is expanding so it's it totals 9
square fet and maybe that was already there last time but we didn't catch it I think I wasn't counting it because it was under the existing deck so I'm adding it just for clarification purposes and also for clarification with the zba application that the homeowners will be resubmitting to the zoning board
of appeals okay yes so then the next part the area of Hardscape pools walkways driveways Etc originally on the old coverage table the existing was 724 Square ft but now the
existing is 424 again there was a so because of the way your calculations table is laid out it's a little bit confusing because deck is considered structure Hardscape is considered Hardscape so the there the patio the existing brick patio so again
in order to make it a little more clear I shaded it in Gray so there's an existing brick p patio underneath deck so I'm including all of that now as well as the actual house itself within the 100 foot I think before we questioned whether that had been permitted
previously and you were saying that yes there was a previous order but we can't find it Well the existing brick patio and deck was part of the house when the house was constructed there has been a new there has been a change to the deck
so you can see the deck was squared off so all that happened was is there was a set of stairs and the deck was squared off and that was approved as an administrative review oh I don't know that we have a record of that I I I
actually oh sorry it is okay good okay few yeah because I don't think there was any increase so what happened is where that where this curve to that deck that I'm showing which was the existing brick um is underneath that deck and that's the
shape same exact shape as the deck above it so that deck has been squared off you can see the new posts and now there's a set of stairs that go up and down from the deck just to the west and that was the only change that was made so I think it was a wash of square footage for the
deck but that brick patio Still Remains underneath the deck okay great thank you for clarifying all that then I have one more small thing sure and this is more I think you need we need you to maybe present another plan because your
previous plan landscape and mitigation plan had how many square feet each the invasive management the lawn removal everything in your key and that's gone now again there was so many lines and so many things happening so we have
included there's 665 square feet of mitigation area in the Northwest and I so we included it as just in the key you in previous I can update the key for previously in your key you had those numbers Y and it's helpful okay especially when we're writing an order
absolutely so that's just yep as I said that's just a little thing but um anybody else go ahead um so the brick was added in the percentage right the it was added in the percentage that's and the pink
the pink planting plan that's just foundation planting has to do with mitigation is it and we're not counting that towards the mitigation but we just wanted to point out that they are using all Native vegetation in their planting because it's within the buffer zone anybody
else go ahead okay so I have a couple questions about the stairway um interesting concept and design I guess I know this is not done this is what they're this is the concept that they're pursuing is that yes that's
correct that right yep how does this this Dune is is is pretty unconsolidated loose sand so how does this stairway secure itself against a moving mound of sand right so I don't
think that it's happening that there's a lot of movement in the season and I think that's why and the homeowners put together this presentation to show the picture of what they were imagining here and I think that's why they're showing the photo illustration only um so I think basically just lays on the Dune so
I don't think it's secured in any way um I think it just lays on and it looks like it's got a footing it's basically a ladder yeah yeah so it is yes so that but with railings handil but it seems to me that as people go up and down that it
will shift definitely shift it it and I have to be honest I'm not quite sure I my understanding is it's not being secured it's kind of resting on the Dune it is fair steep in Our Land Management plan on page
um on page four of Our Land Management plan we have a photo of this area and as you move from um east to west it gets more steep as we're moving towards the parking lot area for the Strong Island Road Landing uh Strong Island landing and so it's it is quite steep in that
area so I can see that this would just rest against this and it would basically rest against it like a ladder it may have to be repositioned but it is AB absolutely meant to be seasonal and only to be used during the summer season while the homeowners are here um the the area where we're maintaining that
existing through the reason that they were previously requesting to shift that path to the east was it's a little more level in that area and they have elderly parents with some mobility issues so they're just trying to find a way to get them safely down to the beach I I don't
know personally how well this will work but I think they're willing to give something a shot if the is willing to approve it so what what we had been told I thought I had written down was that this stairway the removable stairway was being installed for purposes of
accessing the beach for nourishment no the area itself is where the beach is is accessed for nourishment so that opening is where they come down and access that beach for nourishment the stairs will only be seasonable season that's for General access that's just for General foot traffic access but I still have a
problem with it not being secured because it is in a velocity Zone I understand and I think one of the things is if there's a storm it makes it very easy it's very lightweight makes it very easy to remove quickly I think that's one of the reasons they chose this particular um
type of staircase okay W okay um and I'll just close out by saying I still have the same objection that I think I mentioned last time about a pool in the coastal flood plane um I just this one
this one is only 25 ft outside roughly 25 ft outside of the Velocity Zone yes given the location of this property facing the open Northeast Y and the fact that there's no revetment there's only this smallish Dune um it seems to me
that it's more likely than not that this is going to experience some flooding uh at some point yeah and a pool is um impervious and I just don't see how it meets the performance standard of not uh reducing the ability of the land
to absorb and contain flood waters so I think a couple of things um to consider on this site and one of them is definitely the Topography of this site so this yard sort of forms a bowl um it's what I'm what I'm thinking of when I think about flood waters is it's not I do not believe that this is going to
displace flood waters onto surrounding properties the surrounding properties are all higher than this property this middle of this property creates a little bit of a bowl so that the elevation the property is higher to the South and it's higher to the north where the Dune is
located so I do believe that floodwater would possibly collect in that low area it's um elevation following the the toppo lines oh you know what I'm sorry I took
off the mark the numbers aren't there anymore I will I will add those back on um but anyways you can see it forms a little bit of a circle in that low spot in that low area with the significant amount of vegetation that we're adding and restoring in this area it's a
relatively small um patio and poolscape I I know you're saying the pool is impervious it's a saltwater pool um I don't think that it's you know it's going to hold water until it overflows potentially but the water will not be displaced from this site so it will
remain on site uh it's a sandy soil it eventually percolate in um it will not displace um water flood water and again it is in the AE Zone I know it's close to the vzone um and again the vzone is um my understanding from the engineer and I will forward you his explanation
of the V zones and the a zones but the vzone is not based on um elevation it's based on the limit of moderate wave action um in this particular case so um so I think that um I I don't have concerns about flood water being
displaced on this site this site is within the flood zone so there is a likelihood that at some point this site will flood but I'm not concerned about this small area of patio displacing flood water and causing flood water to cause damage on surrounding properties well it isn't just a question displacing
of of flood water is one of the standards but the other one is um not reducing the ability of the land to absorb and contain flood waters which this absolutely does right well the patio itself will be permeable so we have discussed that with the homeowners
we've continued to maintain the proposed dry well for you know and if the if it needs to be drawn down it is meant to be um almost like a plunge pool so it's a hot tub as well so it's not drawn down seasonally like a large swimming pool might be in order to cover it for the
season um and that we've we have talked to the homeowners the patio will be around the pool will be permeable so that it will be allowed to um so that water will be able to infiltrate through the joints um so I think we can't make it any more permeable than what we're
proposing I I hear you thank you for all of that I will consider that um I was going to say that what you can do before the storm is you can drain the pool and that way you have a chance to absorb some of the ocean impact
absolutely yes not happening you have to drain it into a truck and truck it off site right before a storm but but if they had to even draw some of it down a little bit the drywalls there it it's a really modest size if you saw it staked in the field it's it's an oversized
currently is yeah and it's basically an oversized hot tub um for yeah no one's doing laps in this pool not with 18 feet no Bob I got a couple of quick ones Teresa yes uh the trees that you plant will they be staked
or gued because it's it's pretty windy over they will be we always guy our trees for at least a couple of growing Seasons till the root systems establish yes yeah I almost got blown away when I went to visit the last time time um it can be windy there and the northwest
corner there's some beach grass in that area I think now existing uh will you re will you uh just keep that we will keep that beach grass in that area we did not include beach grass in this particular plan because it's part of the beach
nourishment um permit that they have so but Beach Grass will be continued to be planting ongoing but that will be done through that their their permit that allows them to do the nourishment continue to plant the beach grass mhm so you'll plant around the beach grass that that's existing in that corner I think
so I mean we're up above the top of Coastal Bank any Beach Grass that's there we will not displace or remove so we will plant around that yes okay thank you anybody else well I have the same reservations I
I am not a fan of the pool in this uh on this property um and more importantly the stairs as they look in the picture and as they feel in the description don't feel safe to me um and not safe for the
human beings or the the uh the Dune they're going to go over because it feels like people going up and down are going to move everything around so I don't know what the solution is but the pool the pool should shouldn't be in that
spot well I have to say the pool is one of the major points moving this project forward it's something that the homeowners are really hoping to um be able to enjoy with their children and eventual grandchildren um they it's we we've looked at multiple options when we
we've literally been working with the Doos for over a year um on designing this project looked at multiple options for locations um for a pool um as well as you we even looked at the southide outside of the 100 foot buffer but the septic system is there so it can't go
there so we've we've literally looked at multiple locations and this location seem to make the best sense and this pool size seem to be um we met with contractors I mean um representatives from soak pools in multiple different plunge pool companies um and this seemed
to be a size that fit the client's desires for what they wanted to use this pool for um as well as kept it small enough that we felt that it was a reasonable ask of the commission with the amount of mitigation that we were providing I get it it just it's
counterintuitive to me there there is literally no other place to put this pool on this property we have investigated all potential options for pool locations when I was a kid I walked through the sand and went in the water well they have they have elderly parents
they were concerned about or something but the way I look at it is two items the stairs I mean hey they want to spend the money and they're going to be there during the season and they can try to Anchor the stairs safely where you can get up and down maybe you know as the summer goes along it'll get an you know
anchored in on its own by by use y um I mean they're responsible for the stairs as far as the pool goes with me I mean you know I don't like to break bre break ranks here but I don't really have a
problem with it I mean it's their problem if the thing fills in with the ocean they're going to say well I Wish I Didn't Do It um so um you know that's the way I stand on it you know anybody so do you have to go to zba
they do so the um homeowners had had submitted a zba application on their own and they are going to be they withdrew that um they learned a lot I think through going through that process um so they are resubmitting an application to zba um I believe that they're going to
be on the May 20 second zba agenda um so they are hoping of course that if the commission feels that this is a project that can be conditioned for approval that you would be able to relay that to the zoning board of appeals um that was one of the concerns the zba had
um at the first at their first hearing is my understanding um so I think with that we would be looking at an early June continuation if possible um for an order if you feel comfortable with that the only thing I will add though on the stairs is that if I was elderly and
hardly walk I don't know if I'd be going down the stairs or just simply just simply go down the beautiful Sandy path that's almost flat to get to the beach I mean you know two accesses is a little you know maybe you can compromise on something here you know yeah I I completely understand and I think that
again I think there's a couple of things that they're trying to do one of them is get safe access the other one is to we already got that right to close the space off to prevent people from walking it ah and which is part of the planting and perhaps the staircase would show you
know private ownership I I'm not quite sure I I I feel like of all the stairs I've seen um requested in all the years I've been doing this this is pretty innocuous it's it's I do think it anchors to the top it doesn't that we're not talking about having to drill
helical or piles or anything like that so um I you know they're they're willing to give this one a try if the commission feels comfortable with it so we would have to continue it but
you want a letter from us saying that it's approvable well if the commission feels that this can be conditioned for for approval I think I'd like to hear people's thoughts because I'm hearing a lot of different things right now yeah
um Bob do you think it's uh yeah sure um I look at the uh you know the mitigation area and I see a real benefit from planting all those Natives and so forth so okay um you know I think that's the tradeoff so I I'd approve I'd uh vote in
favor of it thank you gonna jump around Paul well would you be able to approve it yes I agree with okay thank you Eric yeah I don't I don't have a problem with it I mean you know it's it's their
dime Janet um I I would not approve a pool in a flood zone Elise I'm with Janet and I feel the same so you've got three with
and three not we're missing one person but right now I don't think we would go ahead Paul well if if she was here and uh she voted on the other side of Tai would be a no vote ties are no votes so
well right now it's a tie yeah so that's what I'm saying so I mean if you get so if you're not going to approve the pool then the letter that we would write I mean the letter that we usually write is that this project may meet the performance standards and can we can develop conditions to meet those
performance standards that's all we're saying but if you're not happy with the pool I don't see how we can write that letter right exactly and that's why we were doing the straw ballot to see if they would approve the letter the ti Breer not here and the tiebreaker is not
here so well at this point I would then I think um I wonder if we provided some more detail on the pool I think there's some decisions that are still being made whether this pool would be slightly elevated above the patio whether it'll be flush with the patio those are design
decisions that I didn't you know we we we thought we'd still have some time to make um I you know a plunge pool or a hot tub with in the AE flood zone I think is something you have approved in the past um so I'm not sure if it's your
concern pretty big hot tub 18 feet right no 8 by 18 but I'm saying a plunge pool or a hot tub kind of thing is something that you have approved in the past within the AE flood zone of course it's not something that we would propose within a velocity Zone I know you're concerned about its proximity proximity
to the velocity Zone but exactly it is still outside of the Velocity Zone we aren't proposing it within the velocity Zone well I think maybe you know if they want to come back with more detail um or you know I don't know I I I'm not sure what
gets me over yeah that's what I'd like to hear that's that's my I I'm my concern is the location I mean when you look at it when you're physically on the
property yep it's just so close to the whole Beach the water the you know there is easily if we've had some horrible storms it could easily I just as high as the
pool um and I just I don't know I just struggle with how close it is really so is the concern if the area were to flood and it was to displace some of the water from the pool pool onto other parts of their property that's that would be the
concern with the saltwater pool well that's that's in some ways Eric said it that's their problem yeah you know if if it if it sure if it and my again my concern is not so much displacement of flood water but it's
interfering with the ability of the land to absorb excess flood water which is what's so critical in a coastal flood plane sure so if it can't absorb the flood water the flood water in the pool fills up it where's it going to go it's going to go into their house so but
that's their problem right but it's still it's just that in in in in coastal flood Plaines particularly ones like this open to the Northeast which strike you as likely to be experiencing storm surge at some point in the not too distant future um any interference any
kind of of of um impermeable Hardscape is a real problem now a hot tub sitting on top of a patio that's a little bit different that's not it's not Hardscape it's a removable piece of it's up high and right if it's and and if it's
elevated they can sit on something where the flood water could go under it we did approve one pool I can remember in the flood plane but it ended up being partially um out in ground what is it out of ground above ground with with a drainage system built underneath it so
that the flood water would go around the pool and then drained down so it it took it was no longer impervious it was perious and that one we approved that was some years ago but yeah um I think I was not too long ago yeah on Fox Hill Road we because I worked on a project
with you on Fox Hill Road where we put a pool in the flood plane um sad was the engineer on that um okay so I'm just I'm just trying to figure out you know how that how because what I'm seeing is If This Were to flood and like you said the
pool water fills up and it overflows it basically ends up in the lower portion because it's graded for um positive drainage ends up in that bowl in the yard um which then would um allow that water to infiltrate um it doesn't displace onto other properties where's
the low point of the bowl so the low point I'm going to walk over I know I'm not supposed to the there's the thing you should have a yeah it's here so this is like a bowl this is the low point of the yard so the pool is actually if you look at the
elevation the pool is at elevation 11 bottom of the wall is at elevation 10 so it's about it's 11.5 so I think it's about a foot and a half above there's 10 10 goes through the house
y the 11 goes right here through the house this is the 11 Yep this is the 10 10 is sort of yep so we're wrapping around so we're wrapping the 10 around the bottom of the pool wall here so we are changing that
slightly so we're wrapping that 10 so we can extend that is that a retaining wall going around so it's a foot and a half high wall yes it's about a foot and a half high that goes around this pool area and then it's planted out so fo and a half high on top of that would take it
to what so it's the wall the top is elevation 11.5 sorry okay yep that's still below so okay so because there's an existing right there's I mean obviously with some with some positive drainage they'll be
minor but there the we're we're matching the grade of the existing patio so in that area where the pool is going is where that Garden currently is and there's a and it goes it's there's a hump right the garden's almost like a BM yep so we're basically just matching the grade of the existing patio and bringing
that out into the area where the existing Garden is located what what if a drainage structure was built underneath the F the pool we could do that so we had originally proposed a channel drain over here and now we're going back to impervious but I mean we
could do belt and suspenders and do both if that was something the commission felt comfortable with we originally had Channel drains around the pool that would allow any water to drain into this um proposed um drywell that could help that would help that
would definitely yeah that channel drain yeah is no longer proposed I mean that would help I've got the old Plan and the New yes yep um so we can add a channel drain um I think the goal here is because really
to me it's more um The Patio potentially that I think I'm hearing the commission I I I'm hearing you say pool but I I wonder if it's more of the patio area that's expanding around the pool and you're concerned about that not being able to absorb flood water well you said the patio is per is well that's semi
perous is it is it dry patio would be dry laid permeable patio around the swimming sing pool but it with that if there was some kind of drain added to that um right because the the so the patio is at least semi perious correct that's correct the pool is still
impervious so well yeah I mean it's full of water yeah yeah no I know but at some point it fills up and then it's a it's impervious water can't infiltrate the bottom right water can't infiltrate through the bottom of imperious yes dry Wells only work to a certain point if
there's a major event I mean they just fill up right not going to be an endless right you can only engineer your way out of these risks to some to a certain degree you can't remove the risks entirely right I mean I guess the question that you know if if we were to
have a nor Easter and you know we had I I don't you know I I don't know and I'm not sure I don't believe the Doos own the property during the 2018 backtack um nor easers so they did not own the property at that time but I don't know that there's any signs of this area
flooding um at that time time question I mean we can't can't predict predict everything it's just we have to try to make sure that whatever we
approve isn't going to be detrimental to the area and it is a very open you know vulnerable area really with storms yes I mean ultimately I will say that again I I I feel feel that the any flood waters
will not be dis this patio and pool proposal will not cause displacement of flood waters off of this property I'm confident about that due to the topography on this site we get a tsunami I don't know I I can't say anything to that but but I think in you know based
on the elevation of the flood waters I do not think that that FEMA has provided for us and that's all we can use as guidance I do not think there'll be displacement of flood water off this property um mam can I add one thing we we could get some comments from Ted Keon
before he leaves oh that would be great yeah helpful um position they when they were doing this did they can read you know when you were looking at the plan a second time yep did you consider pulling
the pool back in a little so we have like I said we've exhausted you know dozens of design Alternatives um as we pull the pool back a little bit more towards the deck um we get more and more shade on the pool from the house because it's on the north side of the house so
we really tried to locate it to maximize sunlight on the pool um and give them space underneath the deck because the deck you can see the line of the deck oh yeah here so it gives them a little bit of space to have some access it's it's
not a lot this is the deck right yep and all we're adding for patio all of this gray is existing patio so the the only thing we're adding is this portion of patio here and this small portion of patio here well if you moved a little bit more
to the east then it's not under the deck I'm sure there's because they'd like it the placements because of the existing patio and the position with the house and all of that I'm just trying to
it does and we we did explore that option and now we get into this cluster of cedar trees that we did not want to remove so we're right now we're proposing to remove one cedar tree at the corner but as we move it further east we start to get into this cluster
of cedar trees um and and we don't want to remove that right but you know you could go a couple feet and then you're where you're taking the cedar tree out I'm just trying to think yeah what we can do and you know I'm not I'm just
throwing things out it's not necessarily what I'm looking at this and it it is what it is I mean the way they have so they're going to come back with a this new drainage system and and it's either you know vote again or what have you it's yeah yep and I will add um I'll
update the key um to show the score footages for each area and then I'll put the too elevation back on I'm sorry when we got the new site plan from the engineer the toppo elevation was off I didn't notice that on the cad file so I will make sure that that gets back on and um and so I guess with that if we
could what if we we could request a continuance to your next hearing third I think yes I think we could update make some up Absolut okay no definitely I guess just one question sure yep so the the the patio the 100% of the patio is
being utilized now or some of it under the house or something did you say so the the patio so the the the way it was um the way the deck was previously designed it was this it was the deck was over an existing brick patio that was
the shape so the deck has been redesigned so the deck is now squared off this area of patio is around the front of the house and so it's you know as far as it not being used the deck construction just got completed um we actually updated Our Land Management
plan to show on page four a picture of what it looks like with the new deck MH um so I think they haven't even had a chance to really use it yet um as far as the deck area underneath it's a walk out there's two um French doors underneath
the deck and you walk out um and if you look at that picture on the upper right hand corner on page four we're basically proposing the pool where that Garden is located I know so I was going to I was asking the question because if some of
the brick could be taken up and removed and and uh uh and maybe Stone added instead that would kind of okay that would kind of um increase the
infiltration into the ground if it's not being used okay we can look at that from a design perspective yes all right then thank you thanks Bob I think we can have a motion to continue to the 23rd I move that we
continue 186 Strong Island Road to April 23rd 2025 second Bob I'm going I Eric hi Elise you're freaking us out I Janet hi Paul hi and I
say I I'm just trying to keep you guys uh alert engaged engaged yes engag thank you for your time and you're willingness to work with us on this than thank you okay Paul the next please last on the agenda is a request
for a certificate of compliance the address is 79 bark Cliff Avenue John and Elizabeth Gardner are the applicants map 15f parcel 44 the EP number SC10 2384 uh replaced this was a 2008 I
believe order uh replace Timber stairs view pruning maintain foot path the catwalk was never constructed and uh I visited the site yesterday I had a lengthy conversations with Dave over the last two days but I think the best way is to let him do a presentation and if you have any questions and I can chime
in as also David Clark Clark engineering on behalf of the gardeners um as Paul said this was from back in 2008 um I can't remember what happened Monday let alone 2008 but uh it was a it was a long time
ago and the records a little thin on uh on what was requested uh as well as um um the order of conditions was not what is expected these days but uh as Paul stated the catwalk was
not constructed um the path has been somewhat maintained over the last 20 years uh the stairs were replaced uh Unfortunately they use poor materials and they're getting close to being need
in need of replacing again um but uh they were replaced um and then the last part of the project was uh uh some uh view pruning um so as far as what was permitted I
believe everything uh is in compliance with with that order um and that's why we're here thank you okay Paul you're the one that visited it I think yes I did did
you all have a chance to see it yeah okay I like to hear your comments if you have any and uh um you know I I saw the fence I saw the compost it is a permanent structure which is interesting
and I don't think that was permitted but the same time I you know I I don't know I think it I think it's approvable yeah I mean the the the plan when originally done um the line came off the old Conservancy district
line that's how they did it back then we developed an a uh inland Bank regulation which would probably even put the delineation line even further toward the pond right so I think the fence and the compost thing is outside of our jurisdiction is it now yeah okay um I
couldn't remember if that was so I mean it it looked fine and actually I talked to Eric about it because Eric used to be the one that maintained this property and they you know he said the owner the
gardeners were very specific you know don't dump down below the fence and you know everything so I think they've been very very careful and cognizant so I which I appreciate so I do think it's
approvable and the um the uh delineation of the resource area being the uh Conservancy District Contour I feel is quite conservative in this location um we did a stair project on the other side of the pond on Ocean
View Terrace uh back in 2017 and I went back and looked at that site plan we had the bvw flagged by Blue fla and we also showed the uh Conservancy district line because that's a zoning issue and the
the the bvw was on average 20 feet closer to the pond than the Conservancy District um we have a new project that uh we just started um getting the existing conditions plan together it's three or four properties to the West on this same
side of the pond and in similar in that in that instance the conservative district line is is Inland um from the bvw so I think uh in this case uh although there is a fence there um the
the the jurisdictional lines are very conservative on this plan I appreciate that thank you um does anybody else have any questions comments all right then I think we can have a motion I move that we approve the certificate of compliance for 79
barcliff Avenue second okay Bob I Eric I Elise I Janet I Paul I and I say I so you're all set thank you thank you so we have one more motion I move that
we adjourn the meeting second okay I'm going the other way Paul hi Janet hi Elise hi Eric hi Bob hi and I say I