Heat. Heat. [music] [music] >> [music] >> Okay, I think we are live. Yes. Um, this is the January 20th, 2026 meeting of the Chattam Historical M Comm Commission. I'm Bob Leer, the vice chair, acting in
charge of the room today. I believe Mr. Msina, the chair, is going to be joining us virtually. But first, uh, this meeting is being recorded and will be available shortly hereafter for scheduled and on demand viewing on any smartphone or phone or tablet device. If
anyone else is recording the meeting, including the use of AI note takingaking apps, please notify the chairman. And I have no idea how you would notify me of that, but that's good luck. Pursuant to Governor's Healey, March 28th, 2025, signing of chapter 22 of the acts of
2025 extending certain COVID 19 measures adopted during the state of emergencies suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law, general law, chapter 38, section 20 until June 30th, 2027. This meeting of the Chattam Historical Commission is being conducted in person
and via remote participation. Every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings as provided for in the order. A reminder that people who would like to listen to this meeting while in progress may do so by calling the phone number 5089454410
conference ID 898988998 hashtag or join the meeting online via Microsoft teams through the link in the posted agenda. While this is a live broadcast and simal cast on channel on [snorts] Chattam TV X 1072, despite our best efforts, we may not be able to
provide real time access. Um, all right. First order of business is a roll call. Um, [snorts] Mr. Msina, are you online with us? >> Yes, I am. Can you hear me? >> Yes, thank you. Um, the chair is here.
Miss Bar, clerk >> here. >> Miss Hamilton. >> Yes. >> Mr. Stevens. >> Yes. >> Miss Dennison >> here. >> Mr. Wilson. >> Yes. Here. >> And Miss Porter is here, but she's an alternate. So, she will be participating, but to the extent
necessary, not voting >> here. [laughter] All right. Um, first order of business on the agenda is the minutes from January 6th. Any comments or proposed
changes? [snorts] >> I'd like to make a motion that we accept the minutes from January 6th, 2026. >> Second. >> All right. Um, roll call again on the minutes. Uh, Mr. Msina on the minutes. >> Yes. >> I vote chair votes or vice chair votes
yes. Miss Bar. >> Um, I abstain. I wasn't here. >> Miss Hamilton? >> Yes. >> Mr. Stevens? >> Yes. >> Miss Tennyson? >> Here. Yes. Yes. And Sandy, you are not present, I believe. Right. Okay. So, M Porter
abstains. All right. On to business. Uh, Mr. Lichfield. The um only hearing schedule for today is application number 260001
to be heard in accordance with chapter 158 which is the demolition delayed bylaw of the town pursuant to a notice to partially demolish a building at 528 training field road represented by William Lichfield. [snorts]
>> Thank you Mr. Chairman, members of the board, Bill Lichfield, [clears throat] excuse me, here on behalf of David Miller and Ashley Baker who uh through a trust owned the property uh historically known as the Kimble Ryder House
out at 528 uh Training Field Road. Those of you who were at the site visit or for that matter have just driven by the property know uh and I think appreciate at least I do the fact that David and Ashley have been remarkably good
stewards of this property. uh and they are now seeking uh to connect the uh existing garage uh to a portion of the house which apparently was built in the uh 1980s or
1990s as shown there. Uh so there is some loss of materials but not historic materials in order to build that connecting piece. the front of the house uh the old portion uh built the formbb says circ 1820 but I tend to think it's
older than that uh the front of the house uh traditional uh cape is not going to change the older portion but we are seeking to connect uh the modern garage to the modern portion that was
built on. So uh what has been highlighted there in yellow is the approximate area where there will be a connecting piece and that's essentially it. Obviously the notion of having a
Cape house expanded over the years is shown by this house as it now exists and the notion of connecting it to the garage is also sort of historically appropriate. Uh, and also in weather like this, I think we all understand why
they'd like to do it. Uh, be happy to answer any questions if you have any. >> Um, Mr. Litfield, I was I didn't notice on the summary sheet that we have, but this house has been before the historical commission before. Am I correct? >> Uh,
it may well have been. I wasn't involved. >> Well, we miss Basset's records show there was 1919. We had a >> [laughter] >> 2019. Yeah, it's not that old. 2019, we had a session regarding and I cannot remember precisely what it was, but I
think it was a small change to the main old house that you're referring to. And I was just trying to make sure that we're not having a cumulative effect through various changes such that we might gain jurisdiction even though it was found to be historically
significant the last time around. Well, clearly it is historically significant, but that portion to which or for which we're proposing work is more modern, >> right? And there's there's also just a complete the plans show a proposed garage addition that is not part of what you're
>> not going forward. Okay. >> Um with that bit of background, any questions from the commissioners? Robert Wilson. I drove by and u missed a 4-minute meeting and uh but I judge this addition
to be a relatively minor change to the appearance of the building and not too visible from the street and I think it would not be uh make a big impact on the appearance of the property. >> Mr. Stevens, I no objection, Miss Hamilton.
>> Yes. Um I drove by that house every day and admired it and I have no objection. No, I attended the site visit and um I think that it's uh not going to alter its historical significance. I think it
I have no objection. >> I concur. It's a beautiful historic property. It's being wellmaintained and cared for and this work will not impose any significance uh to the historical significance. >> Miss Porter, any comment?
They've [snorts] been wonderful stewards of this property. It's a gorgeous home. I have no objection at all. >> Well, and the chair agrees. I happen to know um Mr. Miller and I know that he runs a commercial cleaning operation. Therefore, he is a very meticulous
person. So, and a delightful human being too, I will add. But anyway, any motions on this? >> Yes, I'd like to make a motion. Um I'd like to move first that re we reaffirm the historical significance of the property um which was initially decided
um in 2019 I believe by this commission. Um, and I further move that the historical commission finds uh that the building is Sorry, I'm sorry. Um, that the proposed work to
be done will not materially diminish the historical significance of the building and therefore we do not impose a demolition delay. >> Second. >> Um, any other comment? Anybody in the public wish to comment? Anybody online? Yes, sir.
You have to go up to the microphone. [snorts] >> Good morning. Uh Phil Pointelli, 550 Training Field Road, immediate a butter to the east as you look at the house to the left. Um, and I just want to and uh
I've been there for 34 years as a weekend person. Um, and uh I'm an architect. So, um, just a couple of clarifications.
Uh they must have been here in the last 10 years because the um bath closet at uh adjacent to the master bedroom is has been put on by the millers. So I
assume that they were before the commission then and that was within the last 10 years or since they've owned the property. So we should >> Yes. in 2019 they were before the commission. I don't know exactly what for but >> I just wanted to clarify that because
comment was 1919. Uh >> yeah 2019. Yes. >> 2019. Okay. [laughter] >> Uh and the sitting room uh is not a to my knowledge is not a new
addition. Um, and it would take some uh research into the into the uh uh building uh
department to define when that was. But when we moved in in ' 91, that was there. Uh, and I had been in that building and it wasn't new in '91. and it wasn't
anywhere close to being new. So I think that portion predates uh so they're not adding new to old. They're adding new to they're they're not adding new to new. They're adding
new they're adding new to old. I believe just as a clarification. Um I think this is I agree with the commission uh uh on the historic
significance and the no uh impact uh on the historical [snorts] significance. This really is a um consistent with uh New England tradition of big house little house back house barn and this
makes the final connection to it. So um that said I just wanted to do some clarifications. I have no objection as an abutter no objections to uh the uh project. Thank you. >> Thank you.
>> Sorry. I would love to hear um >> Bill respond to that regarding where the addition you know we had a 1989 edition added according to our records and that's what I thought was being added on to. >> Yeah. My my understanding is that the
portion to which we're going to be connecting or the structure that will be connecting the garage to the rear of the house is uh shown there the yellow highlighting is itself not old historic
uh as indicated by the poured concrete foundation below it. Um but saw that >> even if it is not >> new is hard to define even if it is not historic uh the I'm not aware of any
historic materials which will be lost or damaged by the connecting piece. >> Thank you. >> Anybody else? >> Another chance for the public if you'd like. All right. We're going to do a roll call. Mr. Msina.
>> Uh yes. I concur. historically significant and um no objection to the modifications as proposed. >> All right. The vice chair also votes yes. Miss Bar, >> yes. >> Miss Hamilton, >> yes. >> Mr. Stevens, >> yes. >> Miss Tennyson, >> yes. >> Mr. Wilson,
>> yes. >> Okay, we are unanimous. And Mr. Lichfield, thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> All right, that is We lost chair has misplaced his agenda. That's the hearing for today. Um
we have two new business items listed on the agenda. One's a discussion of preservation restriction process. Um I don't have anything to add to that. Mr. from Msina. Um, got anything?
>> Uh, yes. Hi everybody. Um, good to see you folks. Um, hope to be back in a few weeks, maybe longer. I got a new friend here. Keeps me keeps me busy, especially when you're right-handed and you got a right-handed sling on all day
long. Uh, but uh, Bob, thank you very much for continue to to hold the fort down. Just quickly, I think uh Christina could probably add some information since we brought this subject up at the last meeting. There've been some conversations between um uh uh selectman
uh Niccastro and Katie Donovan and uh Christina, why don't you add some information of where we are and how we're proceeding on this at this present time? >> Sure. Yep. So, um Dean had reached out to Katie and I and we've started um the research process on this. um something
came through on the lift serve. So, we're going to kind of piggy back on that and um so the process has started and we're going to we're going to move forward with reaching out on the list serve and then go from there. >> Thank you, Christina. The only thing I just want to add, we have a number of
new members on the commission. The concept of the mass historic commission list serve, I'm not sure how many members of the commission have actively signed up and participated in that. Uh, I know we get hundreds of emails that we don't like to uh necessarily uh go
through, but if you're it's it's a really a great way to keep up to speed about what's happening, not only within historic preservation, but at Mass Historic and with all the other historic commissions and historic districts in
the state of Massachusetts. uh you know it's very informative to find out that you know we're not the only ones having the same issues and how other towns and commissions uh address it. So if you're not a member Christina can show you very
quickly uh how to how to sign up for that just that comment if I may. Bob, under new business, um we continue to show the ratification approval of administrative rules and regulations, but I guess we we probably should drop
that. If I recall at the previous meetings, we agreed we were not not going to address that any further, that we were confident in way we were proceeding. >> That's my recollection. Yes. >> Okay, Christina. Um I have a couple of old business items. if there are no other new business.
>> Um, I just am curious whether Miss Briggs has something to say about preservation restrictions. >> Hi, Ellen Briggs, Protect Our Past. And we began this conversation with Frank actually, we being Frank Ecker, Fred Ecker and myself um to because we are
deeply concerned about the issues of losing historic houses and um so we started asking Frank how to dig into this and we engaged Bob as well. Had a few more conversations. We would like to be part of the conversation that you all
have with Dean or any other members of the select board. We are meeting with uh the head of preservation mass on Friday to discuss it. We need to find entities in which to hold these uh restriction easements. Um preservation restrictions
preservation easements are just for 30 years I believe but preservation uh restrictions are forever. And this we have we al I know a few people already who would like to put their properties
under such a restriction. So um we are part of this and we're happy to be uh helpful in the conversations to find solutions. We're really um pleased to know that Dean Niccastro and uh others have said, you know, this is something
we really do need to look into, but I think it's going to be a core solution to saving some of these amazing historic houses. So, um thank you for being interested and involved. Yes. You have a question, >> Stephanie? Go ahead. >> Yes. I'm just wondering if someone puts
their home under this and they sell five years later, the house is still under that. Yes, a preservation restrictions means it can never be demolished. It has to be Well, I know how about the maintenance and the level of maintenance. Um,
so there are some issues with that from an owner's point of view. Maybe it will be devalued because it has a restriction. Others will argue the opposite. So, we're digging into this. Um it is it is probably the only way that
we know of Frank included that a house can be saved forever. >> Thank you. So there are posit and the reason why uh this is done in other areas um and they are asked the owner would be asked to put a sum of money
into an account which will be held by whoever is holding the easement in order to have u funds to support a legal battle that may come up. So that is why it's done. It's done lots of places around this country. We need to
get it on the Cape Especially especially this year 250th year. We are just an FYI, protect our past are featuring the 250 year old plus houses on the Cape for each each town each month. We're focusing on a different town. Um, and
the more you look, the more you see. And it's just amazing what we have in this little peninsula. So, we must really get behind and see if we can save them. So, any Yes. >> Um, Thank you, Ellen. >> Are you
>> are you thinking that an organization outside the town like Protect Our Past might be under should be under consideration for being a holder of the restrictions? >> Oh, wouldn't we love to? We're so young.
We really don't have the capacity. We have definitely talked about it and that's ideal, but realistically we don't have the uh we're not prepared to be able to hand something of that that magnitude right now. >> Okay. >> Maybe in a few years.
>> Okay. Thanks. And I I think Ellen has again pointed out that one of the main issues is not getting somebody to do it but getting somebody to monitor it uh permanently which requires some resources and both in terms of people and perhaps money if somebody needs to
make some >> changes in order to retain the historical significance. So there's it's more than just signing a sheet of paper and filing it with a state and having it >> right >> done. It needs to be followed up >> and and you have experience with the
conservation easements and restrictions um knowing that someone needs to keep tabs just like you have to do on properties. You have to keep tabs on. >> The town has some conservation restrictions that they hold or monitor.
Uh some of the town lands and the similar number or a similar size and acreage is held by the conservation foundation and that that is a they [snorts] have over 200 properties that are involved. So it's should be a
full-time operation. It unfortunately has not yet been a full-time operation, but they're they're catching up rapidly, but it >> it's a lot of work once once it gets started, and if it works well, it just creates more work. So, >> and we need to take our time to do it
right to make sure it's it's it's manageable. Um, you have how many properties and conservation properties? >> 220, I think. >> I don't know. Do we have 220 houses in Chattam? I don't know. I doubt that we have that many sites. We're working hard.
>> It'll start slowly, >> but it's still it still requires um uh some management and we have to figure that out. So, we're here to work with you to figure that out because a lot of people want to have it done. It's just
how do you do it? What's the best way to put it together? >> Yep. >> Frank, I think he I can tell he has something to say. >> Go ahead, Frank. >> Well, thank you very much. I don't want to get ahead of us on this thing here, guys. Um, let's be careful. The one
preservation restriction that we've been involved in as an historical commission with the YW.CA took a long time, cost a lot of money. But in that case, we had uh a devoted organization with resources and as well
as the u the town of Chadam at the time who was trying to protect help protect a significant uh asset in the old village. So, uh, you know, uh, yeah, it's a nice thing to do. It's the ultimate protection, but it's extremely
complicated, can be extremely expensive, and I don't want to give people the false impression that this is a simple way to try to preserve an historic property. So, we we're we're proceeding slowly, Ellen. Uh, slowly in the sense that the historical commission certainly
would be responsive if an individual wants to make the investment. And from the historical commission point of view, uh, do we want to ask the town of Chadam to, uh, allocate resources to be the, uh, holder of this kind of a
restriction? Um, and and I think as Bob indicated, there there are many things that you might have to do even before you proceed. So, uh, there's a lot of information that's got to happen before we proceed, and we're taking the first steps. So, thank you very much, Ellen. I
appreciate it. Um, just know that we're we're going to be addressing every town on the Cape with the same thing. So, we're really starting here. So, yeah, it's going to be a step-by-step process. So, thank you. >> Okay. Uh, Robert
Ellen, is there a town on the Cape similar or nearby that has these kinds of regulations where the mouse traps already been built? No, not in not in the Cape, which is why we're talking to Preservation Mass and other people to
find out what they know and we this is a we just have to take the time to get all the pieces out in front of us to put this puzzle together, but I think we're all determined to to try and make this work. So, any other questions?
You know, Ellen, I appre I appreciate the the um you know, the the exuberance to to attempt to do this, but you know, there are many many ways to to try to make historic preservation, you know, a significant part of the
culture of of the of Chadam and of the of the Cape. And um and I think we got to be careful here uh on how we sell this, you know, to uh as a as a simple solution uh to the community to try and
save uh historic historic homes. Um uh so I'm that's why I'm cautious and if I sound cautious, I am cautious because I don't want to oversell this uh this concept u to the selectman or to the community. Um, when there's one that's
appropriate, I think we could we could proceed, but it is not a it's not a beall for every situation. Bob, I have a couple of other old business items I'd like to address. >> I was about to ask you about that. Go ahead. >> Thank you. I I thought we were going to
break a record for a half hour meeting, but I guess not. Uh just very simply uh the old business Nicholson family association the submission of the application to mass historic well that's proceeding very
well actually was on on in contact with Robert Nickerson the former president of of uh the Nickersonson family association who was providing the financial resources for PL Holly Herbster to proceed. They are proceeding they are in the form of writing. So, uh
it just it's just something that's happening uh uh ever so slowly but still is happening and moving forward which is a significant uh resource for us and as well for the town of Chadam. Uh I guess the next item there and if
nobody's have any questions on the uh the Nickerson homestead was again uh Christina I think we dispense with the meeting protocol issue and we should probably eliminate that from the agenda.
>> I can do that. >> Okay. >> That that that's that's fine with me. I I will note that in our current rules and regulations um which were last modified in 2021, the last section section Roman numeral 9 is hearing
procedures and that pretty much sets out um if nothing else. It's the way zoning operates and most of the other boards and commissions do. So I don't see any necessary change to that. >> I agree. Thank you very much. >> We just need to do it that's all.
[laughter] Well, it's always easy to say it, talk about it, but doing it is another story. Uh, okay. Um, I guess under chairman's report, Bob, >> you're down to the boat house.
>> Yeah. I I asked Christina to uh include on your packet this morning a copy of a piece of correspondence between myself and Greg Burman, the director of uh uh Bob Bob uh
Dr. Dinson's replacement and what's going on with the boat house and and I want to thank the commission. you know, we uh he came before us a while back, you know, with the boat house and some things and we had suggested some some alternate funding situations that he
could potentially pursue and he did and they were lucky enough to uh to get some additional funding. So, what I guess all I'm trying to say, I got my fingers crossed here, uh is that everything seems to be in place in terms of the funding. Uh, as you as you aware, the
boat house made its the beginning of its journey home, you know, through the uh from Quincy to New Bedford where they're going to be taking out the floor. If you've ever been in the boat house, uh the b the floor of the boat house is tilted because it was a railway in which
they could uh bring up boats from the water and the and the rail railroad uh railway uh into the boat house to store the boats. And that has to be flattened out and structurally supported with steel. uh because the next step after
that's done, that work is being done with our good friend um Dave Dy, you know, uh heading up that effort. And when that is completed hopefully in another month or so, and everything else is completed at the uh the 90 Bridge
Street site, they'll be bringing it back. Um, I was actually hoping it wouldn't be coming back until May when my boat's in the water and we could sail along with it, but I'm afraid uh March, April, it's a little too early, a little too cold to put the boat in the water.
But it should be really hopefully an interesting uh situation to bring it back to Chadam and in place for the last step into converting it into an upweller. The purpose of my conversation very simply is for those of you who were on the commission when we were involved in
updating the form B for this property when we were first trying to save it about 10 years ago maybe longer. We at that point talked about submitting a DOE determination of eligibility of the uh boat house as a national
registered property. uh in consultation with the town, we thought we had a better chance of making that happen when the boat has actually returned to Chattam and we held off and uh and I guess I'd like to just informally get a
consensus from the commission members that what I'd like to ask uh Christina to do is to reach out to Katie Donovan. I've already reached out to Eric Dre to get an estimate for him to update the
form B one more time and then prepare a uh letters and necessary documentation so we could submit to Mass Historic a determination of eligibility of the boat house as a national register property. Uh the boat house, the other two boat
houses on the Cape, the one in Mmentia and the one on Nantucket um I believe are already on the National Register. So it would be a nice trifecta having all three of those historic boatouses listed. So, uh, unless anybody has any
objection to that, I'm going to ask, uh, we're not taking a formal vote, but I'm going to ask Christina to proceed with, uh, Katie and and I'll have in informal conversations with Eric Dre if anybody has any other questions on that subject.
Thank you, Bob. >> Any questions up here? >> No, I I think it we need to get started. Frank, you're right. If you wait until it comes back, it's just going to take that much longer. So get get the path ready anyway.
>> All right. Um any other comments on the agenda, folks? I don't I don't see anything. Any motions for the rest of us? >> I move we adjourn. I'll second.
>> Okay, another roll call. Last roll call. Frank, adjourn. >> Yes. Nice to see you guys. Vice Chair votes to adjurnn. Miss Bar, >> yes. >> Miss Hamilton, yes. Mr. Stevens, >> yes. >> Miss Tennyson, yes. Mr. Wilson, >> yes. >> And Miss Porter can object or not. We
don't care. >> Thank you all. Nice official broken record. Bob.