Good morning and welcome to the January 6, 2026 meeting of the Chattam from historical commission. Um the first thing I need to do is read a little note about our process. This meeting is being recorded and will be available shortly hereafter
for scheduled and on demand viewing on any smartphone or tablet device. If any else anyone else is recording the meeting in courting through it including through an AI op process, please notify the chairman. Now,
pursuant to Governor Healey's March 28th, 2025, signing of chapter 2 of the act 2025 extending certain CO 19 measures adopted during the state of emergency suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law general law 3A paragraph section 20 until June 30th,
2027. This meeting of the CH Chattam Historical Commission is being conducted in person and via remote participation. Every effort will be made to ensure the public can adequately access the preceedings as provided for in the order. A reminder that people would like to listen to this meeting while in
progress may do so by calling the phone number 1508-945454510 conference ID 9460654546 hashtag or join the meeting online via Microsoft Teams through the link in the posted agenda. Well, this is a live broadcast and simcast on chatam TV
Xfinity channel 1072. Despite our best efforts, we may not be able to provide real-time access. Um, just parenthetically, I am doing this part of the show here because Mr. Msina is got some issues and but he is
about to participate virtually. Uh, beginning with the roll call list. Mr. Msina, are you available and online? He's muted. >> He can hear you though. Bill, >> you ask him to unmute.
>> Bill, Frank, you're you're you're muted. Hey sir, Frank. >> All right. >> Yes, Robert. >> Hey, >> you're you're present. >> Yeah, I know that. Oh, no. You just have to wait for me to unmute it. Thank you. Okay.
>> All right. We see you. Uh, the chair is here. Miss Bar is >> All right. Can you hear me now, Mike? >> Yes. Okay. >> Thank you. >> I'm counting you. Counting you as present. >> I am present. >> Uh, the clerk, Nancy Bar, is out of town. Miss Hamilton >> here.
>> Mr. Stevens >> here. >> Miss Tennyson >> here. >> Mr. Wilson >> here. >> Miss Porter is absent. Okay. First order of business is the minutes from December 2nd or December
16th. >> 16th. >> December 16th. Um, you all had a chance to review them. Any comments or additions, corrections? Any motions? >> I move that we accept the minutes.
>> Second. >> Okay, we will go down the roll again about that. Mr. Msina on the minutes. Yes. >> Chair votes. Yes. Uh, Miss Hamilton, >> yes. >> Mr. Stevens, >> yes.
>> Miss Tennyson, >> yes. >> Mr. Wilson, >> yes. Okay. All right. So, we have uh one hearing scheduled today which is in two parts because it's in the National Register or Historic District. Uh it was continued from
December 2nd um at the applicant's request. >> Bless you. and also from the 16th I think. But um Mr. Riley, >> Mr. Chairman, >> sir. Yes.
>> Uh we had notification from Mr. Riley's office that they wanted a continuence uh to a future meeting. Is that the case? >> Uh that's a question for Mr. Riley, I guess. >> Uh good morning, Bill Riley. on behalf of and Picardo. Uh we've been having
conversations with our neighbors uh represented by Mr. Ford. Uh and so we're considering other alternatives to elevating the house to the full height. Um we we're still having like we have a
meeting today with Cape Cod Commission staff so because we don't yet have an agreement. we hope to uh so we're still exploring that option as well. But right now uh yeah, we think a continuence would be appropriate to see if uh
the clients can come to an agreement that is satisfactory to all. >> Um what kind of continuence are you looking for? I I for one am getting tired of the continuences. U I don't blame you, Bob. You know, it's probably time for you to retire.
Well, I'm going to go out with I'm going to go out with censoring you for your continuences. >> Well, I mean, the reason why continuences make sense is that uh if we're able to resolve what we consider
thorny problems with with a continuence, that would make a lot more sense than requiring the staff to accept a new filing, do the new publication. you know, we we have the same conversation with the zoning board of appeals because, believe it or not,
they're tired of the continuences. But the reality is that in terms of staff time and the possibility of completing something sooner rather than later, continuouses really make a lot of sense. Well, I agree with you in theory, but um waiting
until 2 o'clock the afternoon before the hearing is not exactly convenient for staff or commissioners. I'm sorry about that. We Mr. Ford and I had a meeting yesterday morning. Uh and then I had to consult with my client
thereafter. So, that's just the way we work these days. >> Well, I've been there, done that, unfortunately. Uh, Miss Hamilton, >> Bill, that's our only thing on our agenda today and that's brought all of us out. So, it's a bit of a mess for us,
too. >> Oh, I'm sorry. >> Yes, RP. >> Mr. Chairman, >> Frank, wait. Let Bob Mr. Wilson has a comment to make first or a question. Uh just uh with the context, what would
be your estimate of the probability of needing another continuence after this? >> I'd say probably pretty strong. I don't know. It depends. I mean, I think uh we have a framework for an agreement
and we're we're trying to put together the details of that. Uh so if we don't reach an agreement then we would move forward to the next meeting. Uh if we complete the framework
and have an agreement then we'll probably need a continuence uh to put it in final form before we come back. >> Okay. Thank you. Um Frank, sorry. Um anything else for us now, Mr. Riley? I want to hear from Mr. Ford also. So >> Oh, that's right. Thank you,
>> Mr. Chairman. Frank, go ahead. >> Yeah. Uh, I guess I'd like to express um Stephanie Hamilton's frustration in myself. You know, uh, this is, uh, getting a little bit, uh, silly here. Uh, yes, Mr. Riley, it it's important
that we, we reach an accommodation here. uh you know from the get-go uh we made it very clear you know relative to the concerns of the commission and uh we as Stephanie indicated we scheduled this meeting which really wasn't going to
happen there was no meeting no reason for a meeting but we scheduled it you know at your behest and u your concern for staff is heartwarming uh but u you know at my behest you insisted on having a meeting That's we didn't want to have
a meeting. We will go to the K. Mr. Riley. So don't be telling me what I said. If you could get out of the habit of interrupting people, it would be really sweet. Thank you. >> Well, we scheduled this meeting. >> I'd like it if you were accurate in your statements about me.
>> Mr. Mr. Would you wait until you finish speaking before you interrupt, please? >> Thank you. >> We scheduled this meeting at your request. >> No. >> Okay. and expecting that we were at the last meeting. You said, "Look, why don't you guys just vote and send us to the
Cape Cod Commission, I cautioned you that that probably was maybe not the best way to proceed and you agreed and allowed us to continue to this meeting and that we would in fact have, you know, some kind of conclusion of it."
Now, I I I appreciate the fact that you're finally, you know, talking with Mr. Ford and the and the other members of the uh of the community to try and resolve this but it is a bit of frustrating and I don't want to let let it go on set that if we are going to
continue this meeting if we are to to agree I mean we could agree not to continue it and just take a vote >> but I think that's not the that's not the proper way to proceed. The proper way to proceed is a continuence but we certainly would like some assurances which was expressed by Mrs. Stevens and
I think other members of the commission if we continue this we're going to continue it for a couple of months until you get your act together and come back with something definitive. Uh we also met we being myself and Mr. Um LRA met
with the Cape Cod Commission yesterday just to reiterate the concerns and the uh issues that you had been expressing relative to threatening lawsuit and also uh to uh the FEMA issues and I think it's pretty clear that the only issue
we're dealing with here is historic preservation and whether or not what you're proposing provides a detriment to the National Register District. Having said that, Mr. U I would agree that we probably should continue the meeting, but we should
continue it with sufficient time and not reschedu it back on our agenda until we have to receive something definitive that we could we could review and discuss. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Msina. Uh Mr. Ford, do you have anything to say as representing
the abutters, I guess? >> Yes. Thank you, uh Mr. Chairman and and members of the commission and uh uh Mr. Msina. Um, uh, we're in favor of Mr. Riley's request. I appreciate the fact that, uh,
all of you came out today for this and again, my apologies on behalf of my clients as well. Um however um this is a complicated issue and it's not one where um you know you you can
give direction uh as you did and um expect that uh within a meeting or two um there'll be a revised plan u because there's a lot of there's some deep legal questions here um both at the commission
level and um at the Cape Cod Commission level and so I'd ask uh for your patience. Um I I will tell you that u I had a positive meeting with Mr. Riley yesterday as he indicated. Um it is our hope uh that u with our assistance and
um our our joint clients that something can be um agreed upon that we could present to you. you're the ones who would decide whether that is something that meets the requirements of the demolition delay bylaw and um whether it
still needed to be referred to the Cape Cod Commission. So, at least I and my clients fully understand that um whatever we're able to come to if we can agreement and revised plan and is presented to you, it's still your decision and we understand that. We'd
ask for your patience. We probably need a little time. I I agree with Mr. Riley that it would probably be two meetings cuz we'd report back and tell you what we believe the solution is and we'd look for direction from you. And if you said
that isn't going to work, well then uh we'd probably Mr. Riley would ask for a vote. If you said that that sounds like it may work, then there probably would be some detailed plans that need to be done um that may involve experts such as structural engineers and so forth. So,
um, I'd ask that you have patience if if you can. I appreciate the fact it's taking a long time, but this is one of the more complicated cases that I've been involved in in in in your jurisdiction over the last number of years. So, my apologies about today um
to Mr. Msina and to the commission, but um I would hope you'd grant a continuence. >> Okay. Uh we will >> I think it has to be a date certain. It can't be whenever we receive a a plan or something. Can you and Mr. Riley confer on what type of continu like how many
weeks, months, days or whatever? And we obviously have only so many list dates. So >> give me a time range and I'll ask Christina to look at the calendar. >> Well, as I indicated,
we're going through what I would say a very serious, very good faith negotiations. And I believe that we'll either have an agreement or we won't have an agreement in the next two weeks.
If we have an agreement, we'll come back and we'll ask for a further continuence to do the plans and complete the things. And that might we might ask for a month at that time to do that. If we don't have an agreement, we're going to want to come back in and get a
vote. So I think uh and what we can do for you know understanding your schedules as well is we'll do much better at notifying you earlier in the process
whether we need a continuence or not. So, I'd ask for a two-e continuence or to your next meeting. And we will I apologize for the inconvenience, but it was Christmas and New Year's.
You know, we did have other things to do. Michael's got a very large family. He celebrates Christmas with everybody. So, but we had a great conversation on Friday. I spoke with my clients over the weekend. They authorized me to do the
negotiation. We had a great meeting yesterday and uh my clients are very much willing to proceed down this path. Uh you know, we have concerns as well. So, it's it's
not a one-way street, but you know, I would say we're working very firmly towards and we have and we both have good reason to resolve the matter, and that's what we're working on. >> Okay. Well, I appreciate that. I would also appreciate if we go for the January
20th meeting that if you're not planning to be prepared to go forward at that point, you let us know by noon on Friday before. >> I think that's fair. That's very fair. We can do that. >> Okay. Um Um There's hand raised on online.
Somebody out there. >> Yeah. Hi. Can you hear me? It's Chris Cannon. >> Oh, yes, Chris. Go ahead. >> So, uh, sorry I couldn't be there, but I had a knee replacement yesterday, so um, felt it better not to try. Um, but, uh,
the one thing I would just like to add, and I agree with both the attorneys, and these discussions have been ongoing, but I want to put this in terms of, uh, it being kind of like a book. When you open the first page, you haven't a clue where it's going to go. And as you get to about threequarters of the way through,
you got a pretty good sense, but you still don't know the the outcome. And that's pretty much what's happened here is we've sort of learned things over time. For instance, you know, variances and exemptions. Those weren't things that we were that were clear at the time
we we began this process. They weren't clear two two weeks later. And uh they're things that have unfolded gradually. And so I' I'd ask your patience because they're still unfolding. uh we were discussing many of the things that we're currently discussing. We were discussing those
within a day. We were actually discussing them right after the first meeting. So, but it takes time to solve some of these problems. One of the largest problems is is our codes and how we can solve some of those issues. Um and
those are answers that are not easy to come by. They you don't just go to your building commissioner and get the answer. Sometimes you do if you're lucky, but sometimes we have to go outside of of uh our building commissioner to get the answers and he has to do a lot of research to get
there. And so I'd ask for your patience on this uh because those answers aren't aren't there yet and they're going to take a little bit of time. So that's really all I wanted to add. >> Okay. Thank you, Mr. Cannon. Um I I must say I agree with what's been said both
last most recently by Mr. Cannon, but certainly Mr. forward before that there's sort of four jurisdictions involved here and I don't think that that's been played out certainly not to my knowledge any place else. So got a tough tough if we don't come to a
resolution amicably. I don't know. Who knows what's going to happen if it goes to court. Anyway, um Christina, the next date is January 20th. >> That is correct. >> Okay. Um so both council are moving to
continue this case until January 20th. >> Thank you very much. >> And we need to take a vote on it though. So um >> Mr. Chairman, >> yes, Mr. never seen it. >> You indicated that uh that you wanted the applicant to notify us the Friday
before, which is the 16th, >> right? >> Whether or not they were going to be be able to present or not. Uh that doesn't give us enough time to uh get the information to the uh members of the commission prior to the 20th. So uh I
suggest >> I the 19th is a holiday thing. I forgot about that part too. So, >> well, not only that, we generally like the information at least the Wednesday before the meeting on the 20th. So, the the decision would have to be on the
14th. On the 14th, if the applicant uh had the information and present the revised application to this, that would be fine. If not, then the meeting would subsequently have to be continued. The other question is Christina, do we have
any applications for the 20th? >> We have one other application. >> Okay. So, we do have a scheduled me hearing. So, that would be fine. But the the addition is that what the condition of the continuence have to be on the 14th. The applicant would either notify
us that they are not going to be able to present or they are and and want a decision one way or the other or they have a revised application which is submit to Christina on the 14th with the required copies to distribute to the members for consideration at the meeting
on the 20th. Is that clear Chris and Mr. Riley? the uh this we're not going to have anything by way of a plan to present whether it's on the the 20th or whatever your next meeting after that is. So then
why don't we just why don't we continue with why don't we why don't you let me finish Frank >> I apologize it's hard to hear you >> the the uh so uh Mike and I think that one week is not enough
uh because of some of the technical issues that are involved. So, we'd ask to go out to your second meeting >> February >> February >> February 3rd >> and then we could let you know the Wednesday before that meeting, but the 14th just doesn't give us enough time to
be able to tell you whether we've reached agreement or not. So, >> okay, that's fine. >> I think that's a better way to proceed, but Bob. >> Okay. Well, it modify the motion that we um continue this case until February 3rd
with the stipulation that um we get notice by whatever the Wednesday before that is as to whether what it's going to happen if it's productive. So, >> January 28th, I think is the date. So, that gives us a little more time. >> Okay, that's fine. All right. Now, >> we don't have a meeting.
>> Is that a motion? >> Wait a minute. Yes. Okay. Um, wait a minute. Do we have three meetings in? >> No, I think that Wednesday before is just when we'll need Okay, there's not a meeting. That is correct.
>> The motion is to continue the case until February 3rd with the stipulation that we get information by the 28th or whatever the Wednesday before is as to what uh whether the hearing will actually go on. So, with that, we get
back to the roll call. Mr. Msina. >> Second. Mhm. >> Thank you. >> Uh, yes. >> Uh, chair votes yes. Miss Hamilton, >> yes. >> Mr. Stevens, >> yes. >> Miss Tennyson, >> yes. >> Mr. Wilson, >> yes. >> Okay. Thank you, gentlemen.
>> Thank you for your time and your patience. >> Thank you. >> That wasn't so bad. >> What a mess. >> This is such a mess. >> All right. The ne next items on our agenda first of all is new business. I don't have um anything to report on
that. Frank, do you have new business information? >> Yeah, Christina, I'm not sure the agenda I'm not sure. I'm looking at the correct agenda item, but you and I discussed in putting on the agenda the discussion of preservation restrictions. Did that make
it in the final version? >> Yes. >> Yes, it did. >> But I didn't have any information to give. Yes. Okay. Let me just briefly and I'm glad Mr. Niccastro Dean Niccastro select select person I guess that's what
we call you right Dean select person Mr. the Castro is is on the uh is on the uh teams so we can discuss this. I wanted to introduce the subject of preservation restrictions u introduce it to the
public and also to the members of the commission because we have some new members of the commission who may not be aware of this process. Uh very simply uh in addition to many things we could do to help preserve uh historic uh
properties uh which is putting them in a national register or uh putting it on the uh in a national registered district or an historic district. There is there is an option that's available to individuals and that is to take their property if it truly is an historic
property and generate a preservation restriction not unlike what happens with a with land and open space where there's a conservation restrictions which effectively protects the land and the property in perpetuity. This is not a
deed restriction which expires in 30 days. This is a preservation restriction which effectively uh lasts forever in perpetuity. uh when since I've been on the commission too many years, we have one
property which is in the old village, the uh YW.CA CA property in which there was a situation where the Boston YWCA was attempting to take over the property and the Philadelphia YMCA effectively
created a preservation restriction on that property and the land to ensure that there would not be all of a sudden condos being built there in the old village. and the town of Chadam uh with the historical commission actually hold
that preservation restriction. Uh subsequent to some activity in the town where we've lost some historic properties. Uh people are concerned about it and individuals with fortunately some means also are inquiring to me the historical
commission chair and also to Ellen Briggs the u the founder of protect our past uh about could we have a preservation restriction uh on their particular property and if we did would the historical commission hold the
preservation restriction? Unfortunately, in time, a lot of agencies that used to hold the preservation restriction have backed away from doing that. What does that mean, hold the preservation restriction? Uh effectively the historical commission is the arbiter if
you will that if somebody tries to do something to this YWC YWMCA property which is inconsistent inconsistent with the preservation restriction the historical commission can take with the town of Chattam can take that individual to court to stop that destruction of
that historic property. Sorry for the long- winded explanation is actually far more complicated than I just did. Now the question before or the issue that I want to raise before the historical commission is uh it's if it's something that we want to particularly encourage
people to do uh there are costs involved there are not costs involved for the town of Chadam ostensibly because the applicant of the preservation restriction would bear all of the legal costs and there are legal costs like any preservation restriction or conservation
restriction there's a lot of legal matters to be discussed. Uh but at least the historical commission would be uh encouraging people if they wanted to that we would do that. I preface the beginning of this conversation with Mr.
Niccastro who's chairman of the select board at present. I I guess what I'd like to ask Mr. Ncastro and is your feeling or the board's feeling on this subject. uh the historical commission I don't don't believe has the
authority to go ahead and say oh yeah we'll hold the preservation restriction without uh some acknowledgement or approval with the select board and dean I guess what I'd like to ask you with the commission is if you could just at
some particular point give us some guidance uh because I'm being asked by individuals and also for protect our past can the historical commission and continue in this role. And again, I didn't want to give a blanket yes, but you know, it's a great thing to do, but
it's not my authority to say yes. So, I'm looking for some guidance from you and from this and from the select board on whether or not we want to participate and uh encourage this type of activity um for preservation of historic properties. And again, my purpose of
putting it on the agenda is that it's not me individually that the select board, excuse me, this the uh the historical commission also concur. Bob, I believe you have been involved in with pop on a little bit of discussion on
here. If you have anything that you wanted to add to this subject. >> Um, not you basically said it. I think the what could be the thing that would lead the town to say well we're not too sure about this is and having been president and trustee of the
conservation foundation which holds many hundreds of preservation restrictions um there's a substantial monitoring obligation that comes in and now we we have very few properties but still somebody in the community development
would have to go out that has some knowledge and be able to check on the property. So, it's an oblig some small obligation at this point that the town could be taking on, but in the future it might be more substantial and also just the process of running the
endowment or whatever the expense account is to um make changes. >> Dean Dean, you have any additional comments? >> Thanks, Bob and Frank. Uh just this is my general comment about it. uh you know
as Bob mentioned there are numerous there are various types of statutory uh preservation restrictions in in Massachusetts. Um we have uh the open space conservation type restrictions. We
have agricultural restrictions and um historical restrictions. Um my sense is that the way to proceed here um would be to um and I'm happy to follow up on this with um on this is to ask Katie Donovan
and working with Christina to check into you know what would be involved and maybe we might want to get some advice from town council on how it works. It would seem to me I can't speak for the whole select board. It would seem to me a logical that a logical body
to be the sort of overseer and enforcer of this would be the historical commission. Um I don't think we're talking about a whole lot of restrictions restrictions at least not initially. >> Yeah. >> But we need we need to get the process defined. I think when the um restrictions are approved, they come
before I know they come before the select board uh because a document goes on record at the registry. Uh and um and we've had uh numerous um restrictions, preservation restrictions, conservation restrictions that as Bob mentioned have
placed the the conservation foundation in the role of basically the monitor. Uh but those have to be approved by the select board. It's probably a similar process, I'm guessing, under the statute. Um, but we should check that out. But I I think it's worth looking
at. I I think um we just need to find out what are the steps, what are the protocols, and then we can come back to your board and your commission and and see how you'd like to proceed. >> Dean, thank you very much. That's kind of what I wanted to do, you know, you
know, begin the process openly, you know, with public information public and be responsive to the citizens and also to protect our past who have who have been made the inquiry. You know, they have been very helpful in the past in in assisting us and in uh preservation. So,
I I wanted to at least bring this subject up to you formally. Uh thank you very much. >> No problem. Okay. >> So, Christina, can I just say we'll continue that on the uh uh over new business as we move from one agenda to the next and we'll see where we we can
report in future meetings. Okay. >> Sure. Yes. >> Thank Thank you very much, Bob. >> Um, next up is ratification uh for administrative reviews 134 speech road. Um, RP, I know you were out there. Did somebody else visit 134 speech,
Janet? Okay. >> I did too. What uh what say you? >> Well, um when I visited the property, uh I felt the house is a quasa Cape Cod style that I would not classify as historic
um when I saw it. It's 79 years old with what looks like a relatively new addition on the south side. And the plan is to add the enclosed porch to the rear of the addition. And the new porch will not be visible from the uh it'll be an
open porch I gather and will not be visible from the road therefore not influence the streetscape. So I recommended approval of the application >> RB. >> Yes, I would agree totally with every single thing you said.
>> So I hear a motion from the representatives. >> Um >> go ahead. >> Can I move my own mo? >> Sure. So, I I move approval of the application for 130 Forest Beach Road.
The uh approval of this application. >> I'll second. >> I'll second. >> And the vote. Mr. Msino, >> yes. >> Miss Dennison, >> yes. >> Miss Hamilton, >> yes. >> Mr. Stevens, >> yes. >> Mr. Wilson, >> yes.
>> Good. Um, old business. I have nothing to say on that. Frank, any comments? >> Uh, nothing on old business. Just one brief thing on chairman's report when you get to it. >> All right. Go ahead.
>> Uh, I just wanted to uh to comment briefly uh on a subject I brought up earlier in terms of the Cape Cod Commission. nothing specific related to any particular application but again
as I indicated u Sarah Cordf as you know has left the commission and she's currently uh uh temporarily replaced by uh by two young women uh Khloe Schaefer and Elizabeth Kellaher and they have h
they have helped us and assisted us with uh information when we uh when we needed on a particular application as it relates to uh the Cape Cod Commission. Uh we had a brief meeting yesterday, Bob and I, with them to discuss a number of
issues, but specifically the issue of the Cape Cod Commission and its jurisdiction and its roles and responsibilities. and the Jordan Vel I think it's V L O who's the legal representative to the
commission actually was on the meeting also and and made it very clear that that when we submit anything to the Cape Guard commission from the historical commission the only role and responsibility of the commission is in relation to historic preservation and
not any other legal or FEMA or any other thinks that when they opine or dis make a decision, the decision is based on historic preservation and that was a a clarification and hopefully that will allow us to continue to use them and not
and and uh and to be satisfactory in and that they're assisting us in that process. So anyway, just wanted to let you know, you know, we're okay. We've got people at the Cape Cod Commission to assist us uh as needed and when and fortunately or unfortunately we do use
them a lot. Thank you. >> Yes, I think they can be very very helpful in um keeping things properly focused as opposed to getting tied up with the uh state building code etc. Okay. Um
anything else for the cause? Any other comments? Any other motions? >> I move to adjourn the meeting and apologize for my nonpresence. >> A second. >> Like Miss >> All right, you get to vote first. Adjourn. Frank,
>> yes. >> Chair votes yes. Janet, >> yes. >> Stephanie, >> yes. >> Robert, >> yes. >> Robert, >> yes. Thank you all. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Dean.