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[music] Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] >> Good evening everyone and welcome to the Cadam Select Board meeting of July 14th, 2026. Please let the record show we started promptly at 5:30 p.m. I'll read

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what I'm supposed to read. Pursuant to Governor Healey's March 28th, 2025 signing of chapter 2 of the acts of 2025 extending certain CO 19 measures adopted during the state of emergency suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law general law chapter 38 section 20

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until June 30th 2027. This meeting of the Cadam select board is being conducted in person and via remote participation. Every effort will be made to ensure that the public can access the proceedings as provided for in that order. A reminder that persons who would like to listen to this meeting while in

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progress may do so by calling the phone number 158-9454410 conference ID20386491 pound or join the meeting online via Microsoft Teams through the link in the posted agenda. While this is a live broadcast and simoccast on channel TV

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Xfinity channel 1072, despite our best efforts, we may not be able to provide real-time access. We will post a record of this meeting on the town's website as soon as is possible. First item of business this this evening is to establish a quorum of the select board. I'll do so now by calling the role. Mr.

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Smith, >> present. >> Mr. Niccastro, >> present. >> Ms. Potach, >> present. >> Mr. Meadows, >> present. >> And Mr. Dykens is present as well. Next item is our minutes of June 30th, 2026. A motion to >> Motion to approve. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Any edits, comments, suggestions?

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Uh Mr. Niccastro? Anything there? Okay, Mr. Smith. >> Um thank you, Mr. Chairman. On page seven uh relative to the uh uh the police chief contract, um these are all [snorts] quite correct.

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Um, I had an issue with removing the um provision in the contract uh relative to um dispute uh issues. Um I wanted to keep it like it was with the previous contracts. The board did not support

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that, but I do want to make it clear that I did support the uh the appointment of um Mr. Malone to chief of police. >> Okay, good enough. Any other comments or edits or suggestions? Okay. We all a motion and a second. All those in favor, Mr. Smith

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>> I. >> Mr. Niccastro. >> Chairman, may I in light of Mr. Smith's comment, may I suggest we insert in the document uh statement that the board unanimously by consensus supported the appointment. Is that true? >> Certainly. >> Good. Thank you. Uh Mr. Mcastro,

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>> hi. >> Ms. Potad. >> Hi. >> Mr. Meadows. >> Hi. >> And Mr. Dyen says I as well. Next item of business are public announcements and agenda item requests. We've got a couple of announcements. We're going to start off with announcements. I know Jill Goldmith has one very important one. Um

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and then Steve Dborah will present the Independence Day awards as well. Okay. So, Jill Goldmith, please. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, I'm going to ask Lieutenant Sarah Harris to join me at the podium. We got a really big trophy for you. So, congratulations. >> Thanks. [laughter]

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Um, I'm very happy to announce that I at the recommendation of Deputy Chief Lou Melzone, who as you know will become police chief next week, that I've appointed Lieutenant Sarah Harris as Deputy Police Chief effective July 23rd,

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2026. This is really an exciting moment for us as Sarah will be Chadam's first female deputy police chief. [applause] Thank you. I just want to give the public a little background on Lieutenant Harris. She served as a member of the

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Chattam Police Department since 2000 when she joined the department as a patrol officer. She was promoted to detective in 2009 and to sergeant in 2010 before most recently being promoted to police lieutenant in 2024.

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Prior to her time in Chadam, Sarah was a member of the Worcester State University Police Department and the Bridgewwater State University Police Department. During her 20-year career in Chadam, she has held almost every position and assignment within the department. In

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addition to being a police officer, she's been a detective, sergeant, lieutenant, and she has served as a court prosecutor, sexual assault investigator, department IT manager, criminal justice information services

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administrator, patrol commander, citizens police academy instructor, and is the police department's representative to the CHU, which is the Cadam Elderly Working Group. Regionally, Lieutenant Harris has been a member of the Cape Cod Law Enforcement Council's

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human trafficking enforcement team. She holds a bachelor's degree in criminal justice with a minor in sociology from Westfield State University and a master's degree in criminal justice from Curry College. She's also a graduate of the Reserve Intermittent Massachusetts

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Police Academy, the Special State Police Academy, and the Massachusetts Police Training Committee Full-Time Academy, MPTC. She's a member of the FBI Law Enforcement Executive Development Association and the Massachusetts

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Association of Women in Law Enforcement. Sarah's married and has raised three children, which he says has been her hardest job yet, but they are her pride and joy. A joint swearing in committee will be held for Deputy Chief Mzone and Lieutenant Harris on Thursday, July 23rd

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at 10:00 a.m. in front of the police station, which is right next door, and there will be a small reception here. So, please join me in congratulating Lieutenant Sarah Harris on promotion to deputy police chief. >> Congratulations, [applause] >> [applause] >> I'd just like to briefly thank Jill, the

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select board, the entire town for supporting me in the 26 years that I've worked here for the town of Chadam. It's been enjoyable. I can plan on continuing to u be on this journey to help everyone and anyone that I can along the way. Um, thank you Kathy for being the in between

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to help me get to the select board and to Jill to get everything that I need to um to them and bringing everything back to me. Um, and I just support everything that the town needs and continue on this journey. Thank you for >> Thank you. >> Congratulations Sarah. [applause]

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>> Wonderful to promote from within. Uh, our next item is Mr. Dbor is going to present our Independence Day awards. Uh um what a great parade, Steve. You guys, the whole committee did a great job. >> Well, thank you. Uh you know, it was a good parade. Maybe it could have been 10

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degrees or so cooler. Um but it was a good day. Um and I just want to mention we had a lot of help. You know, there's five people on the committee, but there's a lot of people. There's town staff that help us. Um Corey is our uh liaison to the select

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board. Um, Chief Anderson and Lieutenant Harris are, you know, very enthusiastic and, you know, helped us. I think they attended every meeting. Um, there's just so many people, all of the emergency services and and protecting the the town and and deploying their equipment where

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it had be. Um, the fire department, the um the DPW who was uh, you know, active before, during, and after the parade, and they're sort of the the unsung heroes of the of what goes on. So, I appreciate everybody's help and um it it

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it makes my job a little bit easier. So, I appreciate it. So, without any further ado, uh we have some trophies or plaques to hand out. The first one is for the best business entry and that goes to the

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grateful mug. So, come up [applause] >> [applause] >> You want to come around over here? >> Oh, sure. Keep walking. Go, go, go. >> Sorry. >> You should have practiced. >> So, here you go for 2026. Congratulations.

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>> Congratulations. [applause] >> [snorts] >> Uh the next um award is for the best civic entry and it goes to uh someone who's helped us out I think in the past. The witches on the water. >> Oh yeah. >> WELL, [applause]

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>> so he's 2026. Thank you. Thank you everyone. >> Thank you. Congratulations. [applause] >> All right. The next one um is for the best family entry and that's awarded to the Magner family.

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[applause] Congratulations. >> Thank you, sir. >> Congratulations. Thank you. Okay. [applause] [applause] >> Okay. Thank you. Um, the next I think is a repeat winner

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uh for the funniest entry and that goes to Candy Cane Pogo Dave. Is he not here? [laughter] [applause] >> Dave's not here. >> I'll track him down.

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>> Uh, the next one is the most patriotic entry and I think this is another repeat winner. Um, the most patriotic award goes to Mudo Construction. >> [applause] >> Okay, the next one is for the uh best youth

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entry. Um, and that is presented to the Pro Lynch family. [applause] [applause] There you go. Thank you very much. >> Congratulations. >> Okay.

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[snorts] [applause] Thank you. Okay. Now, we're going to get into the um the overall um awards. The third place overall um plaque is awarded to the uh Chadam Maronei Maritime Center

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and RCA Wireless Museum. [applause] >> Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> That was really good. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> [applause] >> Uh the next award is the second place overall as selected by our judges and

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that's awarded to the Chattam Municipal Airport. Thank you, [applause] Rex. >> [applause] >> Alas, I've run out of plaques to hand out. So, I think we'll have to u present a trophy instead. >> Um, it wouldn't be the Fourth of July

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parade, I think, without the Phillips Farm family. Once again, have won best overall for their entry. [applause] You got a line through your head. Congratulations. [applause] >> Make sure I get it back. [laughter] Uh so that that I guess that concludes

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uh 2026 Independence Day parade. Uh we already have a meeting scheduled for early in September for next year. So, uh, we'll get rolling pretty soon after the summer. Thank you very much. It was a great day. >> Yeah, it was a great event, Steve. Thank you very much. [applause] >> Okay, we're still on public announcements and agenda item requests.

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I'll let the room clear a little bit here before we continue. Mr. Hogrin, I'll I'll recognize you. John Harman, South Chadam. I think this may be a combination of a sort of, you know, public announcement sort of agenda item request simply because of

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>> I believe some of the board may be aware as far as the incident that happened last Friday night at the band concert where there was enough music interference from the wayside in so that the band was disrupted and I personally was sitting typically

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at first the beginning near the flag pole. I had trouble hearing the the chat and band because of the interference the music. There was amplified guitar and vocals. Um after about 8:15 I moved to the front of the uh the restrooms because it was

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possibly a rain and to get away from that noise during the silent period when nobody was speaking the band was not playing. I could hear clearly lyrics from the wayside in at that distance. I believe this is totally unacceptable

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and having attended Chattam band concerts for probably 65 years. Um I'm not sure what's what can be done, but I know obviously I think they have to have permits to to have amplified music and it should be some limitation to make sure that at least during band concert

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time from 7:45 to 9:45 on Friday nights that they pretty much just keep quiet. Um at 9:15 approximately I went back to where my original location they had moved the and what was happening was

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there was in a tent behind the the facility they obviously had amplified speakers going on from there that's why it was so loud at 9:15 and afterwards I went back and they had moved the music to basically inside the dining room but

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they still had the back doors open so you could still hear enough so I could hear music from them at the flag pole even at that point but it certainly was not distracting. Um afterwards at the concert or by during the concert um the band leader Tom

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Jankee had recognized Anita Harris basically and thanked her for for apparently assistance and I saw her come back into the band stand. apparently she had gone over and talked to Wayside and afterwards I confirmed that so on and there was somebody else from the audience who apparently had been over

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the wayside and they had even called PD and I guess reported it also. So, I just wanted to bring it to your attention and so on and see because I on Monday I contacted Miss Lewis and to see if there was any, you know, outstanding, you know, authorization for their music.

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And I also backtracked the last year on select board agendas and I didn't see any >> any items there. So, I'm not sure, you know, what permit they had. If they have music on Friday nights, you know, in the front of the wayside in facing the street, that's one thing. in the back.

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No, I don't think that's And now I'm concerned also with the potential for any sort of interference with the Shakespeare in the park that's going to be coming up. Um so obviously I mean the way set in you know apparently great business I you know love going there for

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Thanksgiving for the council on aging dinners and so on but um ban comes first and I just wanted to bring your attention and see what can be done you know whether it be instead of agenda items to request to do some modifications of whatever permit they have or get them to have a permit. So

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that's all. >> Well thank you John. It was brought to my attention. I know Anita went over and spoke to the general manager there and he said, "There's nothing I can do." And she said, "Yes, there is. You can shut this down now. We've been having a band concert every Friday night since 1932 in the summertime." So, they did shut it

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down. So, I think a followup with the Wayside's probably appropriate and I see Shauna has her wants to speak as well, but was clearly communicated them that they needed to shut it down and they did. >> Yeah. So the Shauna licensing agent, the Wayside is not currently licensed for entertainment. And again, as we've had

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this conversation previously that entertainment under the the license is for the general public. So if they had a band in the tavern, they would need that. um wedding receptions as a business of the inn doesn't require a permit but we did

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I did contact um Michelle Joyel who is the parent company's licensing guru um and we did have a conversation uh Monday morning uh followed up today with some additional information for her about

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what is and isn't allowed um we had an internal meeting this afternoon and we heard from the new general manager this afternoon. He was very apologetic. He understands the conflict. He, you know, said it was an oversight on their part and is very uh committed to being a good

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neighbor. So, I don't think we're going to have conflicts in the future, but we will be bringing them into compliance with an annual license shortly. >> All right, Shauna. Good. I'm glad you followed up and had a good conversation with them. That's that's great. Any other uh announcements from the public at this point? Announcements from the

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board at this point? I I have I have a couple. I uh the uh over the holiday weekend uh you know everybody parties but there was a party on North Beach where the folks that partied uh left really we left a mess um real real this

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is North Beach Island not North Beach North Beach Island and uh my friends went over including my daughter and cleaned it up and I want to publicly thank Graham Millie because they put a note out on Facebook and Graham came in his boat and gathered there were bags

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and bags and bags of trash to towels, cans, food, tra just screwed everywhere. So they cleaned it up, put it in bags, and Graham brought it back to the fish pier. So publicly, I'm I'm thanking Graham, Millie, and the folks that volunteered to they were just going to the beach. They volunteered. It took

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them, you know, an hour and a half, two hours to clean it up. It was disgusting. So the other message there is, you know, we have some of the most that's arguably the most beautiful beach in the world or certainly on Cape Cod. And if go enjoy it and party on it, but clean up. Don't leave your trash behind. Footprints

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only. And you know, it just it's not appropriate. Totally inappropriate. So, that's one announcement. Uh um I guess I guess that's it for announcements from me. I have a couple agenda item requests. Agenda item requests from the public.

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Any agenda item requests from the board this evening? Oh, well, I have a couple. I uh there's confusion among in the ESRAC about their charge and and we've had some interviews with them and they would like clarity on their charge and they would like to hear from the select board on clarity on

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their charge. So that's an agenda item request. We want to talk about their charge and it's its genesis and how it's interpreted. You know, Stuart's made some comments, you know, and and they want to really get they don't want to be at odds with the select board and they don't want to be at odds with the town. So, we really need to have some clarity. I think we should have a discussion

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about about their charge. Um, the other one I have is is is relates to the second vote we took on the intersection last last time we met and and I I I really think we need to have an agenda item for plan B, if you will. What are we going to do if we want to do it? How

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are we going to do it? Who are we going to enlist? Who are we going to There's an awful lot of work to do there. So, I really would like to have a formal agenda item on plan B. So, those are my those are my two requests. Um, just want to remind want to remind folks tonight

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for our our business uh agenda, we're going to have three minute limit on comments. So, if you've written comments and you want to read written comments, you need to rehearse them and make sure they're under three minutes if you really have something to say. Um, we don't want repetitious comments. We want

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um brevity uh is is sanctity. So, but concise comments, three minute limit. The ZBA has done it very well and I'm taking a lead from Randy Potach who implemented the threeminut um rule at the ZBA and I think it was very very effective. So that's during our uh

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public comments on the business agenda. Any other uh agenda item requests and or public announcements? Any online? I see none. Okay. Well, on to our first uh uh public hearing this evening. uh to consider an application for a new seasonal all alcoholic beverages

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restaurant license for PM doing business as the Cadam House of Pizza. Philip Lus, manager for the business located at 75 Old Harbor Road. And I will have the clerk read the formal notice, please. >> Thank you, [clears throat] Mr. Chair. Notice is hereby given that the Chattam Select Board will hold a public hearing

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on Tuesday, July 14th, 2026 at 5:30m in the lodge meeting room at the town office annex 261 George Ryder Road Chattam and remotely via Microsoft Teams platform to consider an application for a new seasonal all alcoholic beverages

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restaurant license for PM Inc. doing business as Chattam House of Pizza. Philip Mal Malidus, manager for the business located at 75 Old Harbor Road, >> Molitus.

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>> Sorry, >> Phillip, welcome. I'm so We're everybody's so excited about this. >> No, really. Everybody's pretty excited about it. >> I've been hearing that a lot. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, tell us just a little bit what you're doing and and >> uh we're going back to the old roots,

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1200 Main Street. So, pizza place, you know, everything we had there. Uh, nothing fancy restaurant stuff, but we'll do Greek Greek additions to everything. And, um, that's it. A nice little quaint bar. And, uh, that's it.

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>> I do have one question. Yes. >> You're going to have the original Greek. All right. Thank you. Gosh, [laughter] >> that's super. Thank you. Good. Uh, any any questions from the board? >> Hi, Philip. >> When are you going to open or have you already? I'm hoping to open August 1st.

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>> Great. Oh, I think we're all happy to see this back in business. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Okay, that being said, any comments from the public? This is a public hearing, either online or in person. Yes, Mr. Phillips. >> Good. How are you?

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>> All right. Brian Phillips, 374 Road. Phil did a great job with Ling House Pizza as long as I can remember, and I'm sure he will continue to do so. Glad you're back. Thanks. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, I think we all are. Okay. >> Is there a um I assume there's a license

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available. Did that somebody relinquish one? >> Shauna seasonal. >> It's seasonal licenses. >> Seasonal all alcohol. >> Oh, okay. >> I believe they're unlimal. Any other comments or questions? Okay. I'll entertain a motion to approve.

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>> So moved. >> Second. >> Thanks. We'll call the role. Mr. Smith, >> hi, >> Mr. Niccastro. >> Hi, >> Miss Potass. Hi, >> Mr. Meadows. Hi. >> And Mr. Dykin says I as well. >> Have fun, Phil. Good luck. >> Thank you. >> You'll do great. Everybody's really excited again.

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>> Okay, we have a consent agenda this evening. the consideration of a special 1-day entertainment license. Music on the porch with old exit 11 band at Chattam Maronei Maritime Center, 831 Orleans Road, North Cadam on August 6th,

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2026 from 4:30 to 6:30. Jen Faly, the executive director, has requested this. Um, I think you had this something similar last year, if not even the year before. So, Jen, well, welcome Jennifer. >> Thank you. Yeah, last year we did a series. This year, unfortunately, we can

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only have one. So, um, the old X11 is agreed to be our band on, uh, the Thursday. >> I love the name that people supposed to bring their own chairs and towels. >> Absolutely. Same just same thing. Picnic, you know, blankets, chairs. It's open to the public. There's no charge. >> No charge. Great. Good deal. Okay. Any

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questions for Jennifer? Okay. Move motion, please. >> Move approval >> and a second. >> Okay. Mr. Smith, >> I Mr. Nick Castro, excuse me. Hi, Miss Potach. Hi, Mr. Meadow. Hi. And Mr. Dykin says I as well. >> Thank you, Jennifer. Have fun.

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>> Mr. Chair, I was wondering if you might want to take item F out of order. It's a consider request to increase membership to the Chattam Cultural Council. >> I would like Barry to sit here all evening. [laughter] Barry, please. We will take that out of order. >> Thank you.

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>> Thanks, Joe. >> Good job. Good evening, Barry. >> Good evening. Barry Dissolitz, chair, Chattam Cultural Council. Uh the cultural council voted uh at our past meeting on July 6 to increase our

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membership from um 7 to 9. Um we currently have six. You have interviewed two other candidates. And uh Kathy should be getting another um application tomorrow from a gentleman who is the

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chief marketing officer of a company. He's also an artist. He also plays in a band. So he'd be perfect. Um so that would that would bring us up to nine. The two that have already interviewed um you

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>> I'm sorry. I just I show seven. You have seven currently appointed. So is someone coming down? >> That's right. That's right. Sue Sue got appointed. >> Just wanted to make sure we were right on the numbers because you would because then that would be a third for two season. >> Okay. We got we got a lot. Okay. So,

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anyway, we want to go to nine. Um because, you know, they're they're available. Less than a year ago, we were on the verge of being under five. Um and we had one member who wasn't showing up at meetings. So, we were we were in

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trouble. And so within within a year, we've really we've really stepped it up. >> Very good. Awesome. Okay. Any issues? Any questions for Barry? >> I move approval. >> A second. >> Okay. And absolutely. We'll call the role. Mr. Smith. >> Hi. >> Mr. Castro. Hi.

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>> M. Potach. Hi. >> Mr. Meadows. >> Hi. >> Mr. Dykin says I. Good job, Barry. Thank you. >> Thank you guys. Appreciate it. >> Mr. Chairman. >> Yes, sir. Could we um after the chatum the next agenda item which is the update on the well testing, could we um listen

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could we hear about the uh seasonal communities legisl uh agenda item before the two affordable housing discussions? >> Sure. Thank you. >> Yep. >> Yes, Rob. Welcome. How are we doing? We're doing well, huh? >> Good afternoon. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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Good evening, sleptboard members. Rob Failey, director of public works. I'm here to do the uh June monthly water report. Oh, this is not the right one. Excuse me. There we go.

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So, for the month of June, the Chattam Wells have been pumping 7 to 18 hours per day. Water tanks did hit the low-level alarms three times in June on 617, 619, and 626, uh, a Wednesday and two Fridays. This

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was before Wells 5 and 8 were pumping into the system. Um, so we're still playing some catch-up there. It's been a pretty dry June, so u nothing out of the unusual. Um, we usually see about anywhere from three to six low water tank levels in June, so it's a little

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bit lower than than average, which is good. Sorry, guess I've got to scroll. Um, so for the training field, um, wells 5 and 8. Um, so we did start pumping into the Cadams water supply on June 24th. Um, it was

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closely monitored monitored during the day. We only had a couple of short days where we were watching things, making sure um, all the chemicals were feeding properly. Um we shut it down for the weekend so we didn't have staff there. But then on June 29th uh during the day we started pumping full-time into

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Chadam's water. Um and it's fully automated. So now we have for the first time all 11 wells uh for Chadam are pumping into the water supply. So July will really give us a really good glimpse into what our adequacy is for

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the need for the demand. Um irrigation meters. Um, again, we are down to just several properties that have are not in compliance. Um, as of June 30th, there were two properties that had not paid for the

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second meter. They were already fined $79,200 each. Um, we went to court on one of those on July 13th, yesterday. Um, unfortunately it was just the uh the

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person that was uh in front of the judge was ordered to pay a court fine of $50 and there was no uh remediation towards uh having their irrigation meter installed. Um that person claimed they didn't have the $50. Um so they gave

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them a month to pay. Um so to for $200 to have an irrigation meter installed and then hiring a plumber, I don't see where that would be a path forward. Um, we'll have to work with that property owner to see if we can come to some resolution in the meantime. I don't believe they're using their irrigation system now, but they still don't have a

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second meter at this time. Um, the second person will be in front of the uh judge on August 10th. And then there are still other properties that we are uh 12 properties have not made appointments for the second meter and another three

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properties um have appointments um and then through August and then there's another six properties that are kind of in the queue but just haven't made that point that made the appointments yet. Any questions on that? I know it was a little confusing but um

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>> it is a little confusing Robin. So, the way I read it is there's there's 12 plus 4 is 16 that are really scoffs. Three at least have appointments and six need to reschedule, but they certainly sounds as though they know what they need to do. >> They they've paid for the meter. They

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just they're waiting for their plumber or whatever kind of scheduling conflicts they have. >> The 12 that haven't made appointments to install a second meter, they they know that they need to install one. They just >> they they've confirmed that they're aware that they need to install or not. It's one of those things where we're

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sending the fines to them and you we may wind up in court. Sometimes you get a letter a letter from a judge from a clerk magistrate and that does tend to motivate the the person pretty quickly. >> Boy, it gets down where you're going to be dealing with these kind of individually, aren't you? I mean,

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>> yes, >> it is it is confusing though and it's too bad. Okay, Mr. Smith. Yeah, >> thank you, Jeeoff. Um, is there consideration to uh bulk all these complaints together and go to court once and send town

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counsel? >> Unfortunately, that's not the way the laws are set up. They have to be fined individually every day. Um, and then it's up to the clerk, magistrate, and the judge to determine when they're going to be tried. >> Right. No, I understand the process. Um

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but what I things may have changed but um the first part of the process with the finding and the uh the days they get to appeal I understand that's set in statute but the but the grouping of like complaints we did as a norm. So if I had

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50 complaints against a uh on mooring issues they would schedule it for one morning. uh and it might be something you want to have a conversation with >> so we get some seriousness you know on our part >> they would schedule all the cases all in

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one morning if you will yeah >> might be helpful >> yeah I I' I have had conversations with the clerk magistrate and for whatever reason they spread them out over a month and a half period >> yeah Miss Potes >> thank you Rob do you have to go there

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every time yourself or do you send someone? How does it work? >> No, it's a Zoom meeting. So, if it's an arraignment, the the property owner has to appear in person, but we can participate via Zoom. >> You can Okay, thank you. >> But it is it is a lengthy Zoom call. You know, sometimes several hours by the

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time the case gets called, >> right? >> So, excuse me, but uh so the person who's been issued the fine shows up to the magistrate hearing >> if they show up. Yes. Well, >> we've only had one so far.

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>> Okay, we'll put it a different way. So, when they're requested or ordered by the court to show up, they show up or they get a warrant. >> Correct. >> Okay. So, um but the town shows up on Zoom. >> Correct.

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>> Well, maybe when we have our disc I don't think that I'm not sure that that shows the seriousness on our part. Um, I think it's all about getting the attention of the court, at least my experience with Orleans District Court. And, um, you know, if we show up, they

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tend to be more serious with more serious cases. Occasionally, I would request town council to show up and they would show up and then the court would take it a little bit more seriously. It's all about how we approach this and um, just food for thought. Okay,

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>> Randy, please. Yeah, >> thank you. So, um I just want to clarify. Is this a clerk magistrate's hearing for whether or not to issue a criminal complaint or is it a summon arraignment and you get to go remotely? You know, >> it starts at the clerk magistrate,

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>> right? So, this is a clerk magistrate hearings to determine whether or not to issue a complaint, >> a criminal complaint. >> And you've only had one. >> Only had one. And that was in front of the judge yesterday. >> Was it Wasn't it in front of the magistrate? >> No, it was in front of the judge. >> Oh, okay. Okay. And it's a criminal

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complaint >> and he changed it from criminal to civil and lowered the fee the fine to $50. >> Right. >> Okay. And uh Okay. So there wouldn't be my understanding is there wouldn't be a warrant for them if they don't show up. There would be a summon arraignment

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different but it's much different than they're not going to get arrested. >> Yeah. Well, >> but it would be a summons arraignment. Yeah. But my experience is that at least in Orleans District Court, if you issued a citation, the people didn't pay it or the court would order them show up. They

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didn't show up, a warrant for the arrest would be issued. That's the process we used. Maybe something's changed in two years, but that's what it was. >> Mr. Castro. >> Rob, was it your sense that yesterday that the judge was

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influenced by a belief that this particular individual was a hardship case? >> I believe that may be part of it. He he first he claimed he didn't have so it was an inherited house from his mother. He claimed he didn't have an irrigation system, which we know he does. I mean,

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we know he's a backflow device. Um, so [clears throat] and then he claimed kind of a hardship and the judge, I believe, my interpretation was the jud judge had sympathy on him and they gave him again a month to pay a $50 fine. >> Was he there in person or was he on Zoom

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as well? >> He was there in person. So I've I've appeared before in person and then the clerk magistrate was like, "Don't waste your time. Just appear on Zoom." So I just took their advice. Have we had um more recent conversation with town council about how to handle these

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because we have several of them here that are running up fines about how to and and Stuart offered some suggestions about how how to deal with this at the courthouse. >> Not recently we haven't uh we we have over the course of time over since we

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started sending out those letters we've had several conversations. >> Okay. my you my broader concern I have no basis in this particular instance at Orans but you know I attended some of the airport

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skydiving litigation and there was a judge now retired who literally said something to the effect that well the town of Chattam has a lot of money and you know they can afford lawyers and there was some sense I'm concerned that you know we uh might

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be viewed as uh not really needing this money or the you know these fines. So I I I think um I would encourage um at some point soon uh sit down with town council to discuss how to we might more

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efficiently process these cases. Thank you. >> Rob, I have another quick one. You you've also verified the following status changes. What does it mean that 39 properties are on the exception report? What does that mean? >> So, we had uh developed an exception report um properties that are either

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under construction or you know in some kind of a process of renovation where >> their yard may be torn up and they Okay. You know, >> that was done water and sewer committee by the way with their approval. >> Yeah. Good. Okay. I just didn't know what it was. Okay. Thank you. Water sampling.

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>> Yeah, water sampling is all good. >> Good. Um, >> and then we're gonna we're going to take samples from Training Field obviously after the startup. >> Yeah, we've we've been sampling that all along. >> All along. Okay. >> I think there are monthly requirements to send the D.

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Um, station maintenance. Nothing out of the ordinary here. Everything is um is going very well considering the summer flows that we have. Uh, system maintenance. So, one unusual thing was an AT&T truck struck the hydrant in the water storage tanks and we replaced that. >> Mr. Chairman.

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>> Yes. Yes. >> So, what happens in that instance? Do we have a claim against AT&T? >> Yeah, they they repair it. Their insurance company takes care of it. >> Thank you. [snorts] >> And then moving on, here is the uh pump comparison for the month.

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Uh [clears throat] you can see we're at 64 million gallons, 4 million over last June, 6.7%. Um again, it's been it's been a pretty dry month, so um nothing unusual out of that. And here we go with um

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the graph. You can see the uh it's very similar the upper part except the middle of the month from about the 9th to the 20th. Um if I were probably look back at the weather, we'd probably see it maybe of a more a drier period where uh people were irrigating more. >> Um it's the only unusual thing I could

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see out of that. >> Oh, we had a heat wave too during that time. I think >> we did. Um and then the June monthly report just shows, you know, our average is uh 2 million gallons, a little over two million gallons per day. Um minimum is 1.4 million, maximum is approaching 3

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million. Again, for a June, that's not unusual. And [clears throat] then you can see wells five and eight just starting to come and pump into the system in the last couple of days of June. And here's our monthly monthly pumping graph. Again, training field wells are

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just starting to show up on the graph. and our year-to- date pumping report. So, for 2026, so far we've pumped 180 million gallons. Uh, last year we were down around 163 million. So, um, you know, despite, um, the drought we've

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been in for approximately two years, we're still pumping more water. I don't know if that's drought fatigue, possibly. Um, >> but anyway, >> I I noted it's up 10.5%. I mean 17 million gallons. It's I mean that's that's double digits. That's a bit you

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know gross pumping. So >> but but it has been I think drier than it had last year. >> Yes. Yeah. So at least we're have adequate supply knock thus far. Okay. Good. >> And here's the year to date. I I apologize. The graph that you had um for

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the pumping graph uh had a blue line on there. Um that was an anomaly. Um so it looks slightly different. It it wasn't an identified month. It was just a blue line and a blue dot at the bottom. >> I think it was meant to be a um >> okay >> kind of a total like an accumul

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accumulated pumping, but it was it didn't translate. So um so this is the accurate one. All the other uh columns from January to June are accurate. Just ignore the blue one in your packet. >> June's green. Yeah. >> Yep. Correct. And unmetered water usage. Um you can

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still see flushing and blowoffs are around 3.6 6 million gallons. Um, you know, we had a number of dirty water calls, especially over uh near George Ryder Road. Um, then wells five and eight. We were pumping to waste uh trying to get all the chemicals calibrated. We didn't want to pump that

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into the system. Um, so I think that's uh part of the reason you see that number so high. And then the 5-year uh pumping, we're right in line. Um 64 million. The average is 63.3 million. We're right in line where we should be.

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Even the pumping hours are are pretty much right in line. So, that's all a good sign. Pretty consistent. >> Yeah, this looks good. >> And Chattam observation wells. Um, we're pretty much in line with last year. Um,

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hopefully we our trough doesn't go down quite as deep as last year, but we'll uh time will tell. Um, we're not worse than last year yet, so that's a good sign. Rob on those on those the last little piece it's period of provisional data that's not real data that that decline

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on both that's provisional at the very tail end of it >> it is it's an estimate >> an estimate okay yeah okay thanks >> they do have real time reporting but I think they still go back and verify to make sure it's accurate >> y >> and this is Brewster um very similar to

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last year as And then this is the uh the drought update. Uh the six indexes that are measured are precipitation, stream flow, groundwater, lakes, and impoundments, uh KBDI, fire danger, and evapo transpiration.

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So, if we look at our precipitation index, you could see they they look back 15 months or an 18-month look back and we are at a level two for Cape Cod. >> Still, huh? >> And then we look at the um stream flow.

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Um it's a little worse here. We're I think at a level four in part of the Cape and a level two in part of the Cape. So, that's a little bit worse, but there's only two reporting um locations. And then we look at the groundwater

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percentiles. Again, you could see the the Chadam and the Brewster observation wells on there and they are in the orange, the level two. So that's consistent to what we're seeing. And then lakes and empoundments.

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Um we're at the 19th percentile. There's only one uh area on Cape Cod that reports on that and that's Garrett's Pond. Garrett's Pond. >> Yeah, it's in Barnstable. >> Okay. >> It's the only single reporting entity.

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And then the KBDI is um basically it's a wildfire risk. >> Um so that just measures soil moisture. Um and that's 353, which would be at a level one basically.

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>> And that's good. >> And here's a vapo transpiration. Again, this is the level two. Uh but you can see parts of the cape if it's just kind of a pixelated color, but some of it's yellow, some of it's orange, some is red. Um so that measures basically the sun,

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wind, and uh uh vegetation evaporation. So if we look at our recent hydraulic history, um you know, we're in a two-year drought. You know, we've had some es and flows. We've had some areas where some months that we seem to recover and then months that are a

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setback. So, we've kind of doing this roller coaster for the last year or so, but um you know, we'll see if we can get out of it by fall, but um as was announced uh last week, we're at a level two, which was consistent with last

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month. And um hopefully we can maintain that for the month of July. Yeah, I was hopeful that we'd be a little better because of the winter, but it doesn't look that way, does it? >> Because we had we had a winter finally. I mean, >> yeah, >> it's not it's not enough. Even the rain

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we had Monday and Tuesday last week was substantial. That's not enough to wipe away a deficit for two years, you know. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Those are great reports. Mr. Niccastro. >> Yes, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. I know there is a public member who wants to

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comment, but I want to just commend Rob. uh it seems like every month you u enhance this report with some additional slides of information. Uh it's pretty comprehensive. I also want to frankly take some credit to the board [snorts]

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to you Mr. here and um in particular and I'll immodestly throw myself in this because and there are others um relative to the operate the um opening of wells 10 and 11 because seven

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or eight nine years ago it wasn't clear that we were ever going to open those wells up >> y >> and now they're here and they're online and I think um we should give kudos to our staff um water and sewer committee and to the [clears throat] and to the select board uh for pushing this and the

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town manager for overseeing it. Um and I guess um the only thing I would also mentioned the water and sewer committee most recently considered um a proposal to amend the town bylaws

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or regulations relative to enforcement including an enforcement mechanism for sewer hookups. Is that correct? But did they they did this last week. >> I missed that meeting. Unfortunately, >> I was not present myself. I was unable to be there, but >> but I don't know if the um

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>> Yeah, I think I saw communication from Chair Colby, so that will be coming to the board. >> Right. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. >> You're welcome. >> If if I may add, um Mass D is asking um just recently, just today, we got a a notification from them that they're

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asking us to renew our water permit. And one of the criteria that they spell out in there is an enforcement mechanism. We would have two years or so to come up with some kind of enforcement mechanism about irrigation and people violating um

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any kind of water conservation mandate. >> That that's that's what it was about. I'm sorry. Thank you. >> Good. >> Good timing. All right, Rob. Thank you. That's those reports are great. Yeah. >> One question. >> Smith.

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>> Rob. Rob, >> Rob, we have a question. >> Sorry. >> Do you have any, as this came up earlier, I just like to put it to rest. Do you have any more insight on this this hydrant running near the animal control uh building on George Ryder for three or four days? At least that's what

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we reported. >> We were having dirty water calls. So, we were flushing it, but at, you know, instead of the normal flushing where we would have the hydrant fully open like we do in the springtime, it was more of a a gradual smaller scale flushing. And that goes on for three or four.

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>> It went on for several days. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um and the emergency number that was called that's posted at the pump stations. Um is that a uh that's not 24 hours >> that goes to the answering service.

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>> That goes to an answering service and 51. >> Yeah. They ping the uh the person on call for Violia [snorts] who manages water and sewer. There's a 24hour on call person. So, somebody uh was not I'm assuming somebody was notified for that hydrant.

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>> We knew it was running, you know, it's whether we are to respond after hours, you know, or just thanks for the heads up. We'll get to it next business day because we were aware it was running. It wasn't an emergency that we felt. >> Okay. Thank you. [clears throat]

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>> Anything else for Rob? Okay. Thank you, Rob. Great report. >> Um I'm sorry, Nicole Stern. I think at the N online hand up. Nicole, is that you? >> Yes. >> Hi. >> That's me. Thank you. Good evening. >> Good evening. >> Um I am a little disappointed, but it

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appears that there are there are no consequences for people that are not following the mandate. I think it's great that we're getting lots of responsible [snorts] people even though it's late, three and a half, four years

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late that are getting the second meter. But >> right, >> I think we're in a very bad position and I I hope that you do follow up with council because we have fines out there.

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We're not collecting a dime. So there's really no incentive for the people left to conform. I mean there was a mandate by the town. Um and that also brings me that I wanted to ask

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Rob about the the people that aren't registered and I ask that every once in a while when we have a meeting. What are we doing about them? And how if we find them when we find them, how are we going to get them to conform

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when again there are no consequences? >> So we have we do review the high water users every month. Um we're up to uh the top 100 water users every month. We've through this entire process I think we've had it was in the 50s 50 or so

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irrigation systems that were not registered that have now registered with the town. So we are making headway. It you know it's not going to happen overnight. It is a lengthy process unfortunately but we are making a lot of headway. >> We expanded that search if you will. We were at 50 or so and at our suggestion

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we expanded to 100. >> Correct. >> Has that yielded results? >> Absolutely. And we found more houses that had leaks. Good. you know, so we've notified those property owners. >> Yeah. If we can get through those, maybe we bump it up to a buck and a quarter or, you know, 150 or whatever, just to as Nicole brings up a good point. Um,

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and it's got to take some digging and some work to to to identify the folks that are, you know, cheating the system, but yeah. Okay. Thank you. >> Thanks. >> Okay. Anybody else for Rob? Okay. Hearing seeing none, uh, we've Mr.

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Stewart has asked uh um to take the seasonal communities designation agenda item out of order. >> Public comments. >> Oh, I'm sorry. >> Oh, no. >> Oh, public comments on on the business agenda. Yeah, if you if you have

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comments on the business agenda that um you would like to uh express now versus when the item is brought up, you're able to do so um at a threeminute limit. And I see no one willing to come wanting to comment. So we'll go on to our

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business agenda. [clears throat] And again, Mr. Smith has asked to take the uh review of the housing elements of the seasonal communities designation out of order uh in advance of the land disposition agreement discussion. So I asked Gloria McFersonson to come forward

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and here she is. Welcome Gloria. Um good memo. Why don't you kind of take us through it a little bit and see if we got some questions for you? >> Sure. Thank you everyone. Um, so I prepared a um, you know, a fairly long memo for you guys with a table of some

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of the key items of the seasonal communities final regulations for your review. Um, I want to backtrack to the adoption of seasonal communities by town meeting of 2025. We were an early adopter and um as

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such, as anticipated, um we ended up getting a $175,000 seasonal community grant program grant which is used to move the Stepping Stones Road project forward. Um and actually the grant period is already over. So they've used up the 175,000.

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Some of it was used to put a deposit on the solar installation so that we're going to have solar panels installed right from the beginning on that. Um, and I appreciate and am thankful for town meetings vote for that because this year, um, we got the NOA for the FY27

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seasonal communities grant program and the maximum we're going to be eligible for is only 75,000 because it's the same 2 million set aside, but it's being spread out amongst more um, communities that have adopted it. So, good job Cadam, for adopting it. Um, we really

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ended up benefiting from that early adoption. So part of the reason we wanted to adopt it in addition to getting the grant funds um you know early and being able to use them for um the Stepping Stones Road project is because there are some components that

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were really um appealing to a place like Chattam. So there were things that we had actually asked for the ability to do attainable housing restrictions, the ability to do year-round housing restrictions. So, I don't know if you've been to planning board meetings when we

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were talking about West Chatam Neighborhood Center zoning. The idea of year- round restrictions came up all the time. Like the board members kept saying, "Why can't we do year- round restrictions?" And the answer was at the time before seasonal communities,

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there's no mechanism in the law that would allow us to do attainable or seasonal or year-round um occupancy restrictions. So that was the big win in my opinion for seasonal communities. So now we can do attainable housing restrictions. Now we can do year- round

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housing occupancy restrictions. Um we got the you know the bigger grant funds by being an early adopter. And there are a few other things um that are in that are summarized in the table which I think are really important and beneficial to Chadam having to do with seasonal communities and that's the idea

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that we can target our housing efforts for state employees, municipal employees, school district employees, um essential workers who are employed by the municipality. So, DPW workers, firefighters, teachers, those are all

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actually specifically mentioned in the Affordable Homes Act of 2024. Um, so now we can actually target um our, you know, some of the housing that we develop specifically to these um occupations. It also includes artists and creatives, um,

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writers, and if you remember also in 2025 when we adopted, um, seasonal communities, we also, um, passed a home rule petition that would allow commercial fishermen to be among among the, um, professions that could be targeted for seasonal communities. The I

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and we tack that in with the artists and writers and creatives with the idea that um, just like artists and writers are both culturally and economically important to Chattam. um so is our fishing community. So it seemed like a really good fit and from what I understand Wellfleet did a similar home

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rule petition this year. I expect other Cape communities are going to do the same thing. Um so that was really briefly and quickly in my opinion some of the really important benefits of seasonal communities and of course with every good thing there's always like the flip side. What do we have to do now

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that we're a seasonal community? So there are two requirements on that and we have to do this in order to maintain our designation and get all those benefits of the grant program of targeting housing to teachers and municipal employees of doing these

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year-round occupancy restrictions, attainable housing restrictions. And the two zoning amendments that we have to pass are um related to tiny homes and related to attainable housing on undersized lots. So, the tiny home um

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tiny homes by right zoning um in in my opinion is not is not really different from from what we have. Like people can build a tiny home if they want right now. And there are certain requirements um that go along with tiny homes. Like there's a square footage

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maximum. They have to um have a year- round housing occupancy restriction, which is fabulous. It means it can't be a short-term rental. Has to be the principal dwelling. must comply with state building codes. Um, and then Chadam can further regulate or even prohibit movable tiny homes. So, all

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we're talking about are smaller scale homes on an actual foundation as the principal residence on a lot. So, you can already do this. This is an easy zoning amendment. We'll probably do it by putting a, you know, a line item in

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the use table. And um tiny homes by right have to be allowed in all zoning districts where single family homes are allowed either by right or special permit which is most of our zoning districts. I think it excludes municipal conservation industrial but basically

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anywhere you see single family homes in town you're going to be allowed to build tiny homes but like I said you can already build a tiny home. So um I don't think that that's going to have a huge impact on Chadam um in any way. Those those have to go not to interrupt glory but they have to go to the planning

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board >> and we have we have to we have to adopt those by in our annual. >> Correct. So the zoning bylaw amendments that are required under seasonal communities have to be like the official process is the select board has to refer

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to the planning board. The planning board has to hold a public hearing. Town town meeting has to vote on it. >> Right. >> But we can't forget. >> No, I'm I'm on it. >> Good. >> Um Yeah. And so, and actually the timeline is interesting. So, we have two

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years to adopt this zoning from the time the final regulations became effective, which was like the end of February, I think February 27th or something like that or 25th. Um, but two years puts us like two months before town meetings. So, actually, even though we have two

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years to do it, we really have to do it >> the by next town meeting because unless we have a special fall town meeting, which is not guaranteed, um we really have to put it on the 2027 annual town meeting. And I don't see an issue with that. I don't think that either of these

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zoning amendments are um really big or complicated. I think that they'll be well received by town actually. And so, especially tiny homes because we can, like I said, we can already do that. Um, so the second zoning is a little bit more like complicated. It's not just

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going to be a footnote in the use table and a line item in the use table. It's probably going to have a few paragraphs involved. And so this is um attainable housing on undersized lots also by right in any zoning district where single family homes are allowed either by

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special permit or by right, which is all the same zoning districts that tiny homes will have to be allowed in. And so has to be attainable housing, not affordable. Attainable housing is also year round, but attainable has the income restriction. Um, you know, the

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lot has to be smaller than the actual square footage lot of the zoning district, but there's still a threshold of 10,000 square feet. So, you can't do this on a 2,000 foot lot. You can't do it on a 9,999T lot. you have to do it on 10,000 square

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feet up to like one foot below what the zoning district um maximum or minimum lot size is. I think at a I think it was a I think it was a select board meeting and not a planning board meeting, we had I showed a I showed a visual of the um

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undersized lots that would meet this definition in town. And then I had the second visual which is like all the developed undersized lots in town. And there were I think there were something like I I can't remember the exact numbers but it was like in the tens so

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say like 50 or 70 like undersized lots that are undeveloped but there are hundreds and hundreds of undersized lots that are already developed because you know a generation ago our lot sizes were much smaller like people built houses on

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10 and 15,000 square feet and so and then we upsized the the zoning and so now you have these pre-existing non-conforming lots. So, a lot of these undersized lots fit right into neighborhoods. And in fact, there's one neighborhood where like the undersized

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lot that wasn't developed is actually bigger than all of the other lots um in the neighborhood. So, in a way, like tiny homes, this isn't necessarily going to change the the character of Chattam. It's almost like um an infill

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development type thing. So, we have these undersized lots throughout our developed neighborhoods which all of a sudden become, you know, able to put a house on it. So, one of the interesting things about this particular zoning um bylaw that we're going to have and the

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regulations make it clear that it's still subject to sewer and septic regulations. So, if this is an undersized lot that's not on sewer, it still has to meet title five requirements. So that's going to limit

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some of the develop develop developable um undersized lots because of the you know the wastewater management requirements. Um you know and there are frontage requirements, there are setback requirements. The regulations allow Chattam and other communities of course

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to go further like the minimum um setback whatever is is 15 feet and we would be allowed to do less. I wouldn't recommend that. I would just say we should craft a zoning bylaw that meets the requirements of this um attainable

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housing on undersized lots. Um without like going crazy, without saying that, you know, you don't need any frontage or the setback can be five feet. We can we can craft a bylaw that meets the requirements that still fits in with the character of Chadam. Oh, and the other

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thing I wanted to mention is we can also um say that these are for lots in existence at the time of the bylaw so that people aren't, you know, cleaning their parcels and creating new undersized lots. >> Gotcha. Gotcha. >> All right. That's a that's maybe more

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detailed than I wanted to go go into. >> Um if you guys have any questions, >> I I and I think we do. I I'm particularly interested in the in the c the uh essential public employee preference. if you might, you know, wax eloquent there, Gloria. And then I think that probably impacts some discussion on

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the on the LDA as well. I I just can you explain how we can how we can uh take advantage, I should say, of our public employee preference. >> So when we So this would be something that's not written into zoning. This is

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something that would be on a project by project basis. And you're right. So, it's going to show up when we talk about the LDA for Stepping Stones, um, where we're proposing that there are going to be 12 units developed on the Stepping Stones Road property with in the LDA, as

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it's currently written, two reserved for municipal or school district um, employees. So, and that's and that's the benefit of seasonal communities that we can reserve or target these units for um, people who work for the town or work for the school

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district. Let's have questions on seasonal and or comments on seasonal and then let's go to the LDA because I'm sure they're kind of there's a nexus there. Mr. Smith. >> Sure. Uh thank you, Gloria. Um I was looking at the it was on page two

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of this of your memo. Uh essential public employees. It's hard to we've been round and around with this for probably 20 years and um it's hard to find employees of municipal government that aren't essential in some way, shape or form, but I'm sure there's

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a few. Um the next categories m they define municipal employee includes municipal employees holding office position or employment in a municipal agency and serving with or without compensation.

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What's a municipal employee that we don't pay? >> A board member would be considered a special municipal employee under the law. So, yeah, >> it's not what I envisioned. Okay. Um, >> they they took that excuse me, I think they took that right out of the conflict of interest law definition. Yeah. A

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municipal >> employee. That that my point is it's I don't think it's who we're trying to target. We're trying to target those people. I agree. >> Who are full-time employees. So, >> I just found that surprising. Um it goes on to say or on a full regular

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then part-time or intermittent basis. What's it >> so it could be a part-time employee not working 40 hours a week. Intermittent could be a seasonal employee. >> No, I I understand what they are. I'm just trying to understand

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if we're trying to assist I mean the town of Chadam is the second largest I believe employer in the town second only to chat bar so it's I think it's makes sense to target those employees for uh

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to live in this community or at least as close as we can get them um and I envisioned you know full-time employees full-time employment, wanting to raise their children here, send them to the

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schools and become part of the of the um of the community and um I didn't I was just wondering if if you had any uh insight on the I don't think part-time or intermittent we're trying to target. [clears throat] >> So, I would agree with that. I think in

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general when laws and regulations are written um and this is good practice, too. Um I think that at the state level they try to be as broad as possible to give municipalities as many options as possible. So I agree that we don't

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necessarily want part-time or intermittent but um right now that's how the regulations are written. >> Yeah. And is is there so there is an opportunity for us to restrict this and you're suggesting >> so I so I don't know that you could

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restrict the definition of municipal employee in the regulations. So I think that if you meet that definition then you would qualify for you know the housing in the lottery. >> Yeah I would and I I don't think I was looking to res to limit the definition.

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And I agree with you. It probably couldn't do that, but we can limit its implementation. Hey, as a matter of town policy, we're not interested in in um using intermittent employees uh um and interfering with a full-time employees

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ability to get home. >> I I would let town council opine on that. >> Okay. Mr. Dcastro, >> Steuart, can I just add something to this since I know you have other stuff? >> Um I was looking at this The way I'm reading these regulations

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themselves, uh the key, um definition is the seasonal community essential public employee. And that basically says um that you have to be an employee. You could be intermittent, you could be

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part-time, you could be full-time, you could be on a board, you could be a a regular employee, but you have to your employment has to be necessary to the public health and public safety of maintaining a year-round community,

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including but not limited to teachers, public works employees, public safety employees, publicly employed first responders, town administrators, and other employees essential for municipal operations. ations. So, they're giving those specific categories

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which I think we could choose from. Um, but it's interesting. It says including but not limited to. So, somebody is supposed to have the discretion to determine what other categories should be included. Um, and I

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read these regulations to to as to give the that authority to the town because later on um on page um [snorts] 11 of the regulations

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um there's a reference to the process for um giving the benefit of the housing to the se to the essential employees and you're supposed to the town's supposed to pres uh describe by

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narrative the need for the preference and how the seasonal community determine the employment types that are necessary to the public health and safety. So that says to me since there since this paragraph deals with what the

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town's supposed to do that it's in the town's discretion to determine all the categories or what additional categories [snorts] the state might not accept it but um that's that's what I'm reading.

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So I I I think the key point is as Gloria said they drafted these regulations. They took this definition out of the conflict of interest law which has been around for 60 or many more years than that. Um because maybe

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some communities like Welssley for example might want to have a board member that um you know couldn't otherwise afford to live in that swell town. Um but um I think the the the more

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um dispositive definition is the one that uh is the one for uh special I'm sorry essential employees. Anyway, I just wanted to offer my thoughts on that and you can talk with town council see if they agree with that. Yeah. >> Thank you.

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>> Thank thank you Dean. That that was helpful. Um [snorts] and um the if we could go to page four under your memo um attainable which you mentioned attainable housing units on undersized

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lots and then in the last bullet it says prohibits rentals for less than six months. Um >> that that seems like 6 months. We wouldn't we wouldn't we'd want more than that.

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>> Would not actually be a year round restriction. Yeah. >> I mean so the law also the regulations also give you the ability to because so year round is defined as 10 months out

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of a 12-month calendar year. Um, but it also gives some flexibility for extenduating circumstances. So, if someone has an ailing parent and they have to go live with them for four months, they're not going to lose their

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year- round status and maybe during those four months they rent out their place. I mean, I'm just I'm just spitballing. I don't really know. I mean, it seems like it's in conflict, but also when you look at the actual regulations and you see that kind of extenduating circumstance thing, maybe

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this ties in with that, >> right? I don't want to encourage rentals. I mean, here we are trying to accommodate these folks. I think well this is the problem with um >> I think we can I think the regulations actually allow us to restrict short-term

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rentals on that but that wouldn't prevent someone from doing a longerterm rental up to six months perhaps >> and I guess I can see your point about well somebody has an extenduating circumstance and in order for them to go deal with that extenduating circumstance

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they need to rent their place and okay but it should be somehow codified to be few and far between. That should be the a real exception. We're not trying to encourage that. I assume >> I agree. >> Um and then um same page occupancy restrictions

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here. We and we chatted about this, but it goes back to the 30-year. Could could you on the third bullet um uh 30-year term, these restrictions cannot legally allow year-round housing occupancy restrictions to be held in

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perpetuity. >> So, this is the same for attainable housing restrictions. So, there are very few restrictions that are allowed under Mass General laws to be held in perpetuity and they're very clearly defined. affordable housing restrictions, conservation restrictions,

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watershed restrictions, um things like that. Attainable housing and year-round housing occupancy restrictions are not specifically listed. So therefore, you cannot hold a restriction in perpetuity for them. That's why we did the home rule petition um at the same time as

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seasonal community. No, actually I think we did that this year. you did >> to do this just this year >> specifically to allow attainable and year-round housing occupancy restrictions to be held in perpetuity which is really like supporting the seasonal communities. I think at some I

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think at some point it's it's going to happen. I've already heard like talk at the EOHLC and the state that like this is this is on everyone's radar. So I think that for instance we're going to do as you've seen in the LDA for

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stepping stones. We're going to do a restriction for the maximum uh term allowed under the law for the attainable units. Um, and then we're going to use a springing restriction so we can redo it at the end of that 30 years, which is the maximum term. But I'm hoping at some

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at some point we can write it in such a way that once we're allowed to hold those in perpetuity, then that's what what happens. >> Yeah. We don't want to end up like the chop housing again. >> No. No. I think well I think with the

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with the springing restriction language that's in the LDA I think that takes care of that. You just have to be on top of this like in 30 years minus 6 months um someone at the town is going and I'm not going to be here. [laughter]

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You guys aren't either. Um someone at the town is going to have to actually reup those restrictions unless they're unless they they've you know they're in perpetuity now. And yeah, how that happens, I don't know because that is a significant weakness on our part. >> So I so just judging by all the people

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who are like so painfully aware that the chop house restrictions are going to be expiring, I think that there's going to be an entire cohort of people who are going to be like very aware when those 30-year restrictions are going to be expiring for Stepping Stones Road. >> That's what we love about you. You're an

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optimist. Not so much over here. Just um Okay. Well, I hope. >> Yeah. And the chop houses were were written differently. Like we didn't have the option to just automatically renew the restriction. We're going to have that option with Stepping Stones Road

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and other attainable housing restrictions as we move forward. >> Yeah. I mean, long as we have somebody to police it, I that'll be good. >> All right. Thank you. >> Hopefully, we'll get the the you know, home rule petition gets approved. >> Exactly. >> And then we we'll be done with it. >> Right. Right. Any other questions for

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Gloria on on Yes, please. Randy. >> So, Gloria, does the home rule petition for to include fishermen, the fisher women, does that have to get approved by the attorney general? A home rule petition does. Yeah. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Y >> and the court as well.

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>> Has to be voted by the legislature. >> And the legislature. >> Yeah. >> Mr. Niccastro. >> Yeah. I I just wanted to thank you for the very comprehensive uh report, Gloria. I appreciate that. Um, we did sub, as I recall, we did submit some comments

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to the um, agency when they were when they had submitted their draft regulations back in February. Didn't we not submit a letter? >> I I think you did. I did. I did also. I think I I actually testified at one of the hearings, too. There's a there's a provision uh it's se it's it's on page

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147611 >> for a waiver uh from any of these requirements if the town wanted to. Did did you have the sense because you followed these pretty carefully uh these proceedings? Did you have any

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sense that that would be a fairly narrow loophole to use a >> So no, there were no specific examples given, but I can tell you that that language was in the first draft of the regulations and was carried through to

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the second second draft. It wasn't elaborated on or anything. Um I think with respect to the two zoning changes that are going to have to be um implemented um you know we'll have to I guess refer this to the planning

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board at some point um or is the planning board going to take this up on their own to propose the bylaw changes to the protective bylaw. How's that going to work? >> Should we remand the issue to them or raise the issue to them or the house or >> I think they're they're aware that they have to do it.

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>> Okay. All right. Okay. >> So, I think we'll see, you know, how they how they craft them. Uh, I think that's going to be very important in terms of being able to sell this uh to to town meeting. The one item that's in here um residential tax exemption um can

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be bumped up to 50% >> if the select board so chooses in a seasonal community. That's part of the u it's in the statute. I think that's behind the regulations. Okay. Thank you very much. >> Okay, any other questions? Well, on to

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the LDA. We Carolyn, please come forward. [snorts] [clears throat] >> Carolyn Mlullen, South Chadam. I just had a question. Um hopefully I don't know if anyone here can answer. If not, go up to the um town council. In regards

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to the uh preference for municipal employees when we would be building a property and we would want to have that option. Is it and maybe this will come up with uh the stepping stones. Is it like these two units are going to be for municipal employees or would it be um uh

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a preference for on application? So if there were we'll give we're going to have an application goes out and if there's any uh fishermanmen or municipal employ not fisherman municipal employees who apply they would get it over somebody else and that would be a

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recurring thing or is it if we build that house and it's for municipal employees it has to be for municipal employees moving on. I was wondering how logistically that would work out. Um so I'm not >> I mean all good questions. I I don't have an answer. I'm not sure I have an answer for that

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either. It could be just on and well >> because then if it's a if it's their house, if we make a house that's we want uh teachers there who are misable employees and then later on it comes up in the market and there aren't any applicants what then happens whereas if you gave them preference if they're in

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the pool and you want to give a certain amount of them preference in that pool then I I so that would be a logistic thing that I assume that it would be preference but that >> Mr. Niccastro, >> I don't have an answer either, but we do have town council on and maybe she can

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comment either now or when we're doing the LDA because that's a very good question. >> That's a good question. >> And the the other question I had was I had the assumption that um the town would have the discretion depending on the type of building that you know whatever opportunity came on the type of

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development and I like use Ptown for an example. If they had a property that they thought would be ideal for artists, they would designate, well, this would be a great artist studio type of situation. So, they would want that for artists, not for everybody, but for artists. And we might have a community

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that we would have preference for municipal workers or something. Is that our discretion to do? That would be my question. >> Artist housing is a little bit different because there are other requirements in the seasonal communities regulations for that. it has to be designed for

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specifically for use by artists and you actually have to um explain to EOHLC like how you've done that and how you've met those requirements. So I think artist housing is a little bit different. >> So then that would be specific to them but would it would it be an option to be specific for us in other scenarios. So

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those are questions that I have in the term. So okay, thank you. >> Great questions. Thank you. Thank you. Uh we have a town council Lisa. um you can speak if you'd like. I'll recognize you if you have any thoughts on those questions from

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Carolyn. >> Sure. Thank you, uh chair and members of the board. It's good to see you all this evening. Um I think that the way this is written and the way it would have to be implemented is you would have two designated units. Um and when they came up for sale, you would create a lottery

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of the eligible uh municipal employees. Um that would have to be done with the lottery agent. Um, and then obviously reviewed and approved by EOHLC. Um, but you would have to have two because we reserve two for municipal employees. Um,

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I think you're going to have to have designated units. >> Okay. Thoughts? >> Okay. Thank you, Lisa. Uh, >> Steuart, you have something? >> Uh, hello, Lisa. Stewart Smith here. Um would that it related to this not

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specifically but um it's come up. Would that um hold true for uh 127 Old Harbor Road if we wanted to hold it for school employees? We've talked about trying to keep with Miss Ellis's uh will

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intentions and one of the ways was to uh she wanted it dedicated uh for the use of the children or the benefit of the children and um um one of the thoughts was well that attainable housing on 127 Old Harbor Road we could we could

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designate that for >> uh Mr. Smith, I'm not familiar with the project, so I couldn't I couldn't opine on on the specifics of it. >> Okay. Well, we'll be dealing with that in August. We can address it. >> All right. There we go. [snorts] >> Yeah, we certainly would like to. Uh I

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see Ela Ela Gibbs, your hand is up. >> Yes. Thank you, [clears throat] Mr. Chair. Uh yeah, I don't think at the 2025 town meeting uh understood the implications. We thought it this was some kind of an award and I'm opposed to

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it for two reasons. Every time you give a preference to certain groups like artists or town employees, you take away from other groups the opportunity to get housing, uh like the elderly, people who um have owned homes and are taxpayers

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and live in town but can no longer afford to live there. It also eliminates all single family residential districts if it is for year round or perhaps only six months of affordable housing. Uh I don't think people understand the

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implications of that. The impact on abuing properties, our infrastructure, water, and a massive increase in density will be substantial. I think subleting by any tenant if they could do that over

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six months is absurd uh and a huge potential abuse with virtually no ability to monitor it. Um I think that this is not a good thing for Chattam. We already have traffic uh issues with our

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water and uh our infrastructure and this is going to increase density substantially. And I think that the butters who have paid taxes on properties that are in residential districts uh are going to be

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hurt in a lot of ways that I don't think we can even conceive of. Thank you. >> Uh Carolyn, you've got your hand up. I'll recognize you one more time and then we'll move on here. >> Follow. >> Yeah. If I could just ask the Carolyn

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Mullen self chat if I could just ask the attorney her interpretation. Is that based on the way this particular LDA was written? Is that specific to that or is that how she's interpreting the general seasonal uh community's designation? >> This particular LDA because we reserve

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two units. Right. >> Okay. All right. Thank you. >> Okay, Carol, >> there's there's nothing that would prevent us. Um, personally, I don't think two units is enough, but um I understand Miss Gibbs concerns. I I

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share some of them on on the density and the holistically of the community that we're we are adding significantly stresses to our uh land use but you know maybe an issue for another discussion but more immediately that two uh units

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held in reserve we could make 50% held in reserve or held for municipal employees uh if we chose right >> you could yes sorry to be definitive Yeah. Or were you asking Lisa? >> Well, I could ask both of you.

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>> So, so, so as an agenda item, we're now into the LDA. Let's recognize that. Let's talk about the LDA. And I I share the exact same question. Two units. Why not four? Why not six? Why not eight? What What was the What was the thought process for for your marking two rather than 10?

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>> Um, I'm not sure, Jill. I don't I don't know if you remember the discussion around that. I I think Hack may have might have offered it to us, but certainly um if we Laura, do you want to set up the staff

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report and um then we can turn it over? >> Sure. Let's let's see it up. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Chairman, are there any more comments on season on the >> I didn't think there were just Yeah. So, we're going on to our next agenda item, which is a consideration of the land disposition agreement on stepping

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stones. And so Gloria can take it away and then Lisa please add value as you see. >> Okay. I'm going to do a very general um introduction. So as you guys know we put out an RFP for the development of Stepping Stones Road. We received one um

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proposal which was from Hack Housing Assistance Corp. Um the review team reviewed it um intensely considering there was only one application just to make sure that it really met the requirements of the RFP and met the needs of the town. And then um the

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select board accepted that proposal. And after that happened, the town manager acting as chief procurement officer set up a negotiating team to work with hack um and their council to um draft a land

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disposition agreement which dis um describes how the property is going to be developed, how much we're selling it for, which is just a dollar. It's a nominal fee. Um people on that committee were um the town manager, the assistant town manager, me. Um from the select

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board it was Corey Meadows, from the fincom Steven Daniel and from the affordable housing trust the chair John Avery. So that was our and of course um Lisa me town council. So that was our negotiating team and we went back and forth over a few months with hack to try

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to nail down um the kinds of things we wanted in there. I you know I briefly outlined um you know some of the specific provisions in there. I think the only one that I want to really point out the only thing that's significantly changed is that the proposal was for 14

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units initially and as hack was going through its due diligence and they were doing test pits and surveys and refining the site plan. I think they realized that 12 units fit on the site more comfortably and so they proposed 12

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units to the negotiating team. Um and unanimously the LDA negotiating team was fine with that. So while the original proposal was for 14 units um the LDA and the final product um is uh proposed at 12 units. >> Mr. Matters. No, I do want to just

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comment on that because I do think it was a very good conversation we had with H when they came in because they were the ones who removed or withdrew those two units because we were looking at the site. Um, which they laid out relatively tastefully, but there were like, you know, circumstances like one unit was

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extremely close to the bike trail in the back. Um some of the units were a little bit close and if you if you just take away some of the units you get you created a better site plan, a little more uh privacy for some of the adjoining units um little less um cumbersome you know encroachment into

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the bike area. So I think the reduction was basically just to make a better site and and they they recognized it. they, you know, we commented on it, but as something that they kind of initiated and I think it was a we as a group, we we supported it and I think it was uh

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the right decision to move to move it in that direction. >> Thank you, Corey. Uh I just had I I thought the LDA was fine. I had two comments or questions. One was the decrease from 14 to 12, and you've addressed it. I mean, I'd like to get as

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much housing as we could there, but if 12, you know, if if Hack in Hack's estimation 12, they're more comfortable with 12. And I do remember the back deck on the west uh lot was very close to the bike trail. I remember that in the design. So, but it's probably fairly tight. But the other question I had,

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it's been raised earlier in our earlier discussion was why only two for municipal and public employees? I I just as a general comment or as a sentiment, I would at least like to see four and I'm making the number up, but I'd like to see I'd like to see more than two. I would like to see more than two, but

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that's my that's my opinion. >> Mr. Castro, >> thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, overall, I I I think the agreement is in very good shape. I do have some um proof reading

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edits that I'll go over in a moment, but I agree with you and and with Mr. Smith. I think that the number of units available to municipal employees should be bumped up to four or six. Um I don't

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think it should be at two. I don't think that's sufficient unless there's some demonstrable um compelling reason to the contrary that the developer is proposing. Um, I did want to just call to the attorney's

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attention um a couple of things and I I applaud the um the work of the uh negotiating team. Um on page Lisa on page three, if you have the same

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>> I do. I'm pretty sure I do. >> Okay. Up at the top town approval. >> These are these are just typos. Uh second line uh it refers to the school department. You would want to say school district. And then uh under section two, this is

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about 3/4 of the way down. Um there's an insert paragraph um lowercase I lowerase one affordable housing trust fund grant. Second to the bottom uh second to last line in that paragraph, the second word

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and I think is extraneous. You may want to take a look at that. I think it probably should be deleted. >> Yep. >> Similarly, similarly on the next page, the third line down, the word and at the end of that line should probably be deleted.

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Um then on page eight um the paragraph Roman numeral 4 the second sub subp paragraph in that section

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um fifth line down I don't know whether this is correct or not but it refers to attainable unit I wondered whether it should also refer to an affordable unit but I defer to you and um the the group because I I just don't know which is the

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correct um reading of that. In that same paragraph, uh last sentence refers to the provisions of this item 4 D1. Uh that looks like a stray reference or an incorrect reference. I don't know

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what is meant by that. Um and then I think I have just one or two more. Um yes, I had a question on page 15. Um this is um under the uh a paragraph

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8A designated developers defaults town remedies. So if the developer defaults um they're supposed to turn over um all their due diligence work. Um I guess my question is is that everything that they

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will have done for us or or are there um is there work product that they've done that might they might have done that that's exempted from the requirement to turn anything over to turn everything over to us? Um the due diligence work would be uh

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their hazardous for example like their um their hazardous material review a phase one or phase two depending on what they were doing. Uh any any kind of surveys that they might have had done. I don't know that architectural plans would be included in that because I don't think uh an architectural plan is

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due diligence. It's development. Um but it certainly would be survey title um phase one or phase two environmental. >> Okay. Well, thank you very much. I, as I said, I think it's a very good document. This is a pro pro project that I support

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enthusiastically. I think it will be uh very good for the town uh once we break ground on this. Thank you, Mr. Chair. >> Thank you, Mr. Caster, for that close reading. Thank you very much. Other comments on the LDA? Um >> Mr. Smith,

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>> so is tell me if it's appropriate um to raise that number from two to six. you know, I I I think it's appropriate for us to suggest that they raise that from, you know, two to to some other amount. Um, some other number, whether it's 246,

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88, I don't know. But >> I mean, I'm willing to chat about it. I just thought we could start at six. Um, >> I shared Yeah, it's >> Yeah, that that's 50% of the the units, which I think is it's it's a good gesture. It's a good message. Um,

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I other thoughts. I I would support it. I would support it. So Lisa, do you want to talk a little bit more about that? What what if there's any impact or what it does mean to >> Sure. I don't I mean I would I would have to obviously um and I think Peter

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Freeman is on tonight, too. Um you know, it's not a money issue, right? It's a pool. It's a pool and qualification issue. And so I guess the question is um and you know, I suspect that the pool would be large enough. Um, and so I

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don't think it's an issue because it's still the same qualifications. It's still going to be the same price. Um, that's that should not be an issue. Um, I so I think if you gave us a little bit of latitude to work, you know, no less than four and maybe up to six, something

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like that. Um, then we could go have the conversation with them. But I don't I don't believe we have any legal impediments to doing it. >> Okay, good. Is there a way to write something into the LDA that um asks for

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six, but then if for some reason we don't have enough um qualified applicants in the lottery, then it can go down to whatever however many we have. >> Right? So that's what I would want to do. I would want I would say, you know, whatever that number is that we agree

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with with stepping with um hack that it it we would write the language. So that you know assuming there's enough participants in the lottery um in order to do it and that they then qualify because just because you're in the lottery if you get chosen then you have

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to go qualify and you may not qualify. So, if the board was amendable to letting us work that language out, understanding that the goal was six, no less than four, something like that, um, then we could be able to do that.

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I would So, I don't know if I would put in no less than because what if we don't have four that qualify? What if you only have three? >> Say up to six. >> Then what do you >> say up to six? >> Up to six. up to six

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>> and then you got to vet that with hack. >> And so if we get six applicants that qualify, then we're in. If we get three, we're in. We get four, we're in. >> Um, right. >> But I I think the message, at least from my understanding of the board's consensus here, the message is we'd like to see more than two and like to

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maximize the opportunity for our local workers as much as we can. >> Yeah. So we so we can draft that language um and then um and I think that that would be okay. Okay. I don't think that that changes anything assuming that PAC is um appreciative of it. I mean

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acceptable of it. And then I will also make those other changes um that uh that um Dean pointed out. And then I would just point out one other change. There's a typo in the second in the first line of the first whereas clause. It should

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be 2025 and not 2005. Jill pointed that out earlier. >> I actually did see that. >> I actually did see that. What what are uh Gloria, [clears throat] if I might, what are some do certain disqualifying

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things come up in your head that we should be looking at? >> What do you mean? >> Well, let's say uh you know, we're we we adopt this language um for six municipal employees. Um what uh what are some disqualifying that

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I should be we should be thinking about? disqualifying categories like pay, right? Or >> Oh, it's all So, the biggest thing is that you have to when you go into a lottery, an applicant has to obviously fill out the application form, but they also need a pre-approval letter from a

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mortgage company. It has to be a mortgage that's not FHA because FHA won't do deed restricted units. So, there's there's a lot of background information that someone has to provide. They also try to maximize bedrooms. So, if you're a single person or a couple,

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you wouldn't be the top pick for a three-bedroom, for instance. A two-bedroom makes more sense. Um, so they maximize bedrooms. You have to be preapproved. Um, and then >> once the lottery is held, then they really dig into all of this information

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to make sure that they're qualified. And some people who have a pre-approval letter when they when they dig in, like I said, and we had this happen at 558 Coral Road, um, ultimately they they don't qualify for whatever reason, >> right? And it's usually a it's usually a

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financing reason, [clears throat] right? >> Um, and sometimes it's, you know, and you you can overcome this, but sometimes it's um the deposit, right? um and the the the additional payment. So, you can have a you know, you can

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have a town fund to help pay for first-time home buyers deposits. So, it depends on what it is, but it's typically around financing. >> Yeah. I mean, you bring up, I think, a good point is is I I can see the deposit being an issue. Is there is there some

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options that >> So, there so there are actually a lot of options through banks. So banks do special rates and down payment assistance for first-time home buyers. >> So in the lottery for 558 Coral Road, we actually had two potential applicants

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who applied to the affordable housing trust before their applications were due for down payment assistance because two people and actually one of the winners um ended up ended up receiving a down payment assistance grant. But two people who wanted to apply went to the bank and

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the bank basically said, "We can't we can't qualify you for this if we could qualify you for like this if you had like a $50,000 $50,000 more for your deposit." And they actually applied to the affordable housing trust for down payment assistance grants. Um, and the

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trust awarded them and one of the people who got the down payment assistance grant is actually the the lottery winner for 558 Coral Road. So, we have things we can do inhouse through the affordable housing trust. Um, that would be for affordable units. Don't think it would

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be for attainable units. Although, maybe we could talk about um next town meeting setting aside some attainable housing funds specifically for down payment assistance. That's like that's always an option for those units. There'll be three affordable and nine attainable units. Um, and like I said, a lot of

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banks offer these things. >> Okay, great. Thank you. Corey, just my just pure curiosity because I think moving it from two to six thrilled I think it's the right decision, but just humor me. So you have more than six

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applicants that qualify. Are we are we limiting? You know, are we turning people away if we cap it at six? >> Well, they can still they can still use they can still go into the lottery for the other units, too. So it wouldn't it's not like >> we're not creating a

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>> cap. A cap. Yeah, >> exactly. Exactly. >> That's what I want to know. >> Uh Mr. Dcastro. >> Yes, Mr. Chairman. Uh I was thinking maybe this discussion at least at the board level is perhaps concluded. I know we have a public member of the public

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who wants to comment, but in the interest of um >> moving moving things along, um we're being asked to approve um the land disposition agreement. And so maybe I I will >> the motion

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>> offer a motion to let me just look at the >> Yeah. I move to approve and execute the land disposition agreement with Housing Assistance Corporation Hack for the sale and development of affordable and attainable ownership housing at the property at Zero Stepping Stones Road

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with the um qualification that the number of units available for municipal and school district employees be um revised to be up to six units. Perfect. That would be the second question.

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>> And Mr. Smith, >> a second, Mr. Smith, but you do have a public comment from >> Okay. Yes, Elaine, you have your hand up. >> Uh, no, I don't. And it's not showing on here that it's raised. I'm sorry. >> Okay, that's okay. All right. So, we have a motion. It's been seconded. We

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will call any other any other public comment. Uh, Mr. Phillips, quickly. Ryan Phillips, 374 Leans Road. I think it should be capped at, you know, two because there's much larger workforce and people that are looking at those houses. Thanks. >> Okay, I understand. Okay, we have a

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motion in a second on I'll take the role. Mr. Smith, >> I >> Mr. Nick Castro. >> I >> Miss Potach. Hi, >> Mr. Meadows. >> Hi. >> And Mr. Dyken says I as well. Good job, folks. Thank you very much. Good job. Good job. >> Progress. Good progress. >> Mr. Chairman, there's a second part to

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this agenda item, which is the letter of endorsement. Do you want to take that up now? >> I would and I would entertain a motion to be honest. >> It's pretty straightforward. >> Straight forward. >> So I I move to approve and sign the letter of support for hacks project eligibility letter application to the

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EOlc. >> Second. >> Thank you. And we'll call the role. Mr. Smith, >> I had a >> one question. >> I had one question. Um on page two of the letter um uh third line down the proposed project

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is an appropriate density for the neighborhood and fits the very well within the existing development patterns in our town. I'm not sure that that is that we should be saying that. Um

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I don't know that it's an appropriate density. We've talked about it, but uh we have gone down to um 12, but and it fits very well within the existing development patterns of our in our town. I I don't even like the existing

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development patterns. So, um >> difficult to write a letter of support saying we don't think it fits. >> No, we could just we could just take it out and say nothing. So there there are certain things that you have to hit for this application to be um deemed by the

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executive office of housing and livable communities um as you know site to get their site approval. So it has to be that like you know that the town supports it, that the density is fine, that uh town departments want to work

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with that. Like all of these things are really things that you should say as a way of confirming your your support in all areas that the EOHLC is looking. Are >> are we predetermining

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what the regulatory boards are going to be looking at? Well, >> Miss Me is shaking her head now. Is that >> Well, we're you're predetermining it only in so far as you've you've seen that there are, you know, six buildings,

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duplex units, um, and they lay out a certain way. Um, otherwise, you don't take any place of the regulatory boards and that's made very clear in the LDA. >> Okay, that's fine with me. it just if we

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don't play any role in that looks like we are here in that in that sentence. So um I just see a conflict there. I'm not comfortable with that sentence but >> I'm hearing two things. >> This is just to the EOHLC so that they

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they say that this is really it's it's to say that the site is appropriate for the development that's proposed. It doesn't it doesn't bind the ZBA in any way. Like the ZBA can cut the number of units. They can I mean I hope they don't. I don't know why that popped out.

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Um they they can change the layout. They can add more parking. They like it. This has nothing to do with the ZBA. >> All right. Well, I'm not going to I I've one thing I have learned in my 14 15 months on this board is these details come back to haunt us. Um I hope you're

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right. I'll withdraw my objection. We'll see where it ends up. >> Mr. Castro, >> I'll offer the comment that I think and I I'm okay with the sentence, but and I respect Stuart's view on it. I think anybody who wants to make an issue of it's in front of the ZBA can show this

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letter to the zoning board and the zoning board can do whatever it wants with it. [snorts] >> But either way, um I wanted to just um mention one one thing. I know we have a motion and second. >> I I missed this earlier. I wanted to call it to the attention of the town

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council. the on the LDA the last the the signature line refers to the town of Chattam affordable housing select board so I not sure who's isn't it the select board that signs this want to correct that yeah it's the select thank you so there's a motion >> catch yep motion in a second I'll call

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the role Mr. Smith >> I >> Mr. Niccastro >> I miss potassi I >> Mr. Meadows I >> and Mr. Dyken says, "I as well." Thank you very much again. Good job. Good job. Okay. The next item on our agenda is the update on the wood waste reclamation facility operated by TWW Nickerson, Inc.

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This is a agenda item request by Mr. Smith and Mr. Dykins. Uh kind of get an update. This this is to use a double negative. This is uh given the the memo that Lisa, I think, or the Talon group wrote. This is not uncomplicated to use a double negative, but anyway, I know it

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was Liz, I think, that wrote the memo, but anyway, Mr. Burman, why don't you take it away? And uh I think it's a good thing that we're taking a look at this now rather than a couple years from now. >> Yes, happy to. Greg Burman, your director of natural resources. Uh so I

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just have a few slides to kind of set the stage in addition to uh the select board agenda report. And um I've been you know invited out to see the facility a few times by Mr. Hopppel who's here in

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the audience tonight and might be you know willing to say a few words or answer questions as required. So this is one of the site plans that we were able to locate indicating the stump dump in yellow and the business in pink.

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I called out those two because they're two separate leases, two T tw TWW Nickerson. Uh here they are kind of on an aerial image to kind of get a feel for what is going on in each one. When we talk about the the stump dump, it's really that area over to the west. And that pink

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line kind of along the edge is the border with Harwitch. So it's three parcels. And these parcels were specifically called out in article 15 of that 2007 uh annual town meeting.

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Um and I'll cover some of what is discussed in that. Um but just kind of wanted to go through a timeline first. Um it did take me a while to figure out the various leases and whatnot. Uh but

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just kind of walking us through it. back in 2002 is when TWW Nickersonson first got a lease with the property and that was with the previous owner of TWW Nickersonson, Steven Clark. In May 10th,

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2007, that lease was amended. So instead of going through 2011, it got extended to December 31st, 2029. uh a short few days after that is when it went to town meeting. Article 15 of

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that town meeting authorized the purchase of the property using article 97. And that particular term is going to come up several times and was mentioned in the uh town council memo. And I I did say the vote stipulates terminating the leases. The owner will remove all

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structures in this area of return to open space. That exact language is from the explanation, not the motion. The motion does mention the article 97 and I'm sorry there's one more part to it. Um

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the fact that uh it's enabling the conservation commission and board of selectmen so it was called at the time to grant a perpetual conservation restriction on that property. So this is 20 years ago. Uh and then just a few months after that, the town did purchase

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um the property from the owners and then continued with those leases. Uh the town did not do a separate 30B procurement for those leases. It just kind of assumed them from the previous property owner. In 2021, there was a transfer of

412
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ownership of TWW Nickerson from Steven Clark to Peter Hoppel. uh at that point uh they came to the select board just to kind of affirm that the leases would transfer and that was voted by the select board at the time. So where we

413
02:01:04.800 --> 02:01:22.159
are right now is on December 31st both the leases are slated to expire. Mr. Hobble has gotten in touch with town staff indicating his preference to extend those leases. And this is just a a quick look through some of the Google Earth images. So this

414
02:01:22.159 --> 02:01:37.920
is back in 1995, [snorts] 2007. So this is about when the town was purchasing the property. 2010, 2012. You can see a lot of activity.

415
02:01:37.920 --> 02:01:56.239
2016, 2018, 2021. This is about when Mr. Hubble uh takes over the property. And when we advance to current, I'm going to just kind of show where to look. So that that's the area where you're

416
02:01:56.239 --> 02:02:11.840
going to see most of the change. So um if you go onto the site, um it's tens of feet of historic stump dump. Um this is material that has been kind of

417
02:02:11.840 --> 02:02:27.599
ground up and excavated and reused over time. there is still some quantity of material left that hasn't been quantified uh really well since 2007. Um so this is the quantification of that

418
02:02:27.599 --> 02:02:43.440
by I believe this was Eldrich and Green Seal that did a volumetric analysis uh that showed about you know 81,000 cubic yards have been removed and that was about 23% of the overall removal requirement.

419
02:02:43.440 --> 02:02:59.040
When was that done, Greg? >> Uh 2007. >> I'm sorry. When When was that done? I wasn't on mic. 2007, that is. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Those other slides showing the property over time were very good. >> Good. Good. >> Very good. >> It was

420
02:02:59.040 --> 02:03:14.480
Yeah. How did you get them? >> Uh that that's just on uh Google Earth. >> Google Earth. >> Just online. You can take screenshots and kind of implement them over time >> going back that many years. >> Yeah. Yeah. 95 was the first really usable one that you could take a look at, but >> Okay, >> thank you.

421
02:03:14.480 --> 02:03:30.000
>> Yeah, absolutely. So, we're 23% of the way there in 2007. Um, we do have an agreement with uh Green Seal Environmental who is redoing has already done the survey. we should have the results in the next couple of weeks and

422
02:03:30.000 --> 02:03:44.719
that's kind of one of the steps along the path is to quantify how much cleanup has occurred, how much is left to go to, you know, reach the 100% cleanup as of December 31st, 2029. So that's what's stipulated in the

423
02:03:44.719 --> 02:03:59.599
lease. Um and I just put a few things up here that according to the leases TWW is responsible for removal of the raw materials uh and to create a grade acceptable to D. Um the idea was to

424
02:03:59.599 --> 02:04:16.719
reduce materials an average of 4% per year. Uh but that language was actually there decades ago. So I I think you know we we don't have between 2007 and now. Um, just looking at the aerials, it looks like most of it has happened more

425
02:04:16.719 --> 02:04:32.880
recently than in the past. Um, but you know, we'll we'll have a better number going forward and come up with a plan to try to see how uh full reclamation can happen. And then these additional surveys are at the the lease horse option and expense.

426
02:04:32.880 --> 02:04:49.760
So that is uh paid for by the town that was part of the lease that we assumed. Um, I believe our current one is about5 or $6,000. We'll probably need to do this one, maybe another couple as we go forward just to document. Um, but it's

427
02:04:49.760 --> 02:05:05.280
going to calculate, you know, the the percentage of buried stumps, the material that's reclaimed, and then an estimate of time to actually do that. So, you know, as as of right now, this is my last slide, but I I did want to mention, you know, I I've talked to the

428
02:05:05.280 --> 02:05:21.679
DP DPW director, uh, Rob Philly, and that there is certainly interest on the town's part, like if a large storm were to occur, you know, where is all that brush and debris going to go? I think we got a little taste of that over the winter storm that a lot of that material

429
02:05:21.679 --> 02:05:39.040
did go to this facility and that's, you know, not a hurricane. So, it's it's those things that we're trying to wrap our heads around. You know, this was fairly well documented and signed off 20 years ago by the town and that's kind of

430
02:05:39.040 --> 02:05:56.159
>> the route that town staff has been following. That was the the will that we have seen. Uh it's exceptionally difficult to take land out of article 97 and I think the town memo does cover that a little bit. Perhaps town council could opine on that a little bit for us.

431
02:05:56.159 --> 02:06:12.400
Um, but yeah, that that's where we are right now moving forward that it we don't see great options for being able to extend, but we Yeah, if there's questions, happy to try to answer. >> I I I'm sure we do. This is actually

432
02:06:12.400 --> 02:06:31.040
pretty interesting. um DP the uh from DP's perspective and know this is for town council and for everybody uh you know from their perspective Greg town council what's 100 what would they like to see happen by at the end December 31st 2029 according to the law what what

433
02:06:31.040 --> 02:06:46.960
what would they like to see happen or chapter 97 that that it would be back to farmland or whatever or graded off and planted or or back to return to nature is that what they're looking for do I understand that correctly or Not. >> Well, I would let Greg answer

434
02:06:46.960 --> 02:07:02.480
specifically what D says, but the lease says, which I presume was done pursuant to the D requirements, is that all materials shall be properly reclamated and removed off the premises by the end of the term of the lease. So, that's

435
02:07:02.480 --> 02:07:20.079
that's from a D stump uh perspective. From a ch article 97 perspective, it would be the same that this is actually usable open space consistent with the town meeting vote. Um, so

436
02:07:20.079 --> 02:07:38.560
it's a pretty hard stop. I'm speechless. I have been up there. I mean, Mr. Hoppel, you're welcome to please come to the podium as well if you if you might because you're you're still accepting debris. I I'll I'll wait till you get up to the podium.

437
02:07:38.560 --> 02:07:54.239
>> And just that that DP reference, a lot of it has to do with just that, you know, I if the lease has to leave, they don't just leave a big hole behind, right? It's graded out nicely. >> Right. So, but you're you're still doing business there. You're still accepting building debris and other debris, uh

438
02:07:54.239 --> 02:08:10.560
landscaping debris, etc. And you have you're still accepting it into the landfill, if you will, into the stump dump and using it. >> Yes, we're still doing it. We um in this last the last weather event was a really big one for us. I um we took

439
02:08:10.560 --> 02:08:27.199
we took all of the wood waste from the Chattam DPW and from for the first two and a half months after the storm from the Orleans DPW as well as all of the homeowners and um contractors that were doing the cleanouts. I estimate that we

440
02:08:27.199 --> 02:08:44.320
took in around 45,000 cubic yards of raw material and trucks, which which equates to roughly 2,200 dump trucks worth of stuff. We've now processed that into about 18,000 yards

441
02:08:44.320 --> 02:09:01.280
through sizing it, sizing it once, and we'll be able to sell most of that material um in the next year through next spring. that will probably last us for our mulch suppliers and um and other avenues that

442
02:09:01.280 --> 02:09:16.239
we have to get rid of it, you know, and then a lot of it ends up composting, >> right? So, you are you um I guess you want to extend the lease, but are you preparing uh in part at all for

443
02:09:16.239 --> 02:09:32.639
departing in December 31st, 2029, or what are your thoughts? I've been focused on the reclamation of the old stump dump since I've been there. And I I I'd be more than willing to show anyone who wants to come see what's actually going on because we've we've

444
02:09:32.639 --> 02:09:48.400
removed quite a bit of material from the site. Um, you know, basically there's 30 or 40 feet of old stump dump, which, you know, I guess it was a sand pit at one point in time. They dug all the sand out and just started running stumps and

445
02:09:48.400 --> 02:10:06.079
brush in there. So, we're um you know, with the stumps, with the old stumps, we we basically pick all the big logs out of them and then we use the lom attached to that and then we let the stumps dry out and we grind them into mulch. So,

446
02:10:06.079 --> 02:10:21.760
um, you know, if you look at these photographs, which don't really do it justice, it's tough to see the actual elevations, but, um, you know, I mean, we've we've gone back a good 300 some odd feet, you know, 40 feet up

447
02:10:21.760 --> 02:10:39.280
>> and, um, you know, manage to reclaim that area essentially, I guess. you know, >> um I I do >> whether or not it's me there, I do think that this facility is pretty important

448
02:10:39.280 --> 02:10:57.199
for a lot of people around here being that there's just a lot of material that goes through there, you know. And um just to be clear, when we said building debris, we don't like uh take CND type material. We just take um

449
02:10:57.199 --> 02:11:14.079
>> crush concrete and we we crush the concrete and make it into road base and you know building material that has to do with earth earth moving is basically what we take in. >> Gotcha. Okay. I'm sure we have others have questions here Mr. Smith and then we'll go around the table. >> Um you know I'm probably speaking to the

450
02:11:14.079 --> 02:11:31.119
choir on the board but this is quite an operation. It is >> it's not minor. Um you [snorts] know we've lost Dubis' pit. lost uh McIntyre. I mean, this is it. This is this is the only one left. And

451
02:11:31.119 --> 02:11:47.119
>> um I think the closest next one is going to be Dennis. Am I right? Is that SNJ? >> Cape Sand and Recycling on Freeman's Way stopped taking um wood waste last winter sometime. So, um >> I mean it it's >> that was the next closest one. There's a

452
02:11:47.119 --> 02:12:04.000
guy in Orleans or I'm sorry, there's a guy in East Ham that takes it and then the three or four people on Great Western Road take it. >> How many acres? I'm sorry, it's probably contained here, but how many >> 10 acres? >> Right about that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, and how much do you remember how much we

453
02:12:04.000 --> 02:12:20.960
paid for this or did you see documentation? >> Nothing. I forget. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> it is. Um, I'm looking at the $600,000 from and one point. So, you had to So,

454
02:12:20.960 --> 02:12:37.280
you had $600,000 from the land bank receipts and $1,625,000 from a borrowing. So, $2.2 millionish. >> Um,

455
02:12:37.280 --> 02:12:55.360
so this place shuts down 2029. I'm I'm really hoping that we could find alternatives to this because I think that would be a tragedy. There's a lot of local businesses and and folks that use this uh in from Chadam. Um, and I failed to see, I mean, I get the process

456
02:12:55.360 --> 02:13:12.239
under article 97, but I failed to see how >> this is going to be uh better for the environment to be moving this material >> uh or where to where we going to move it to and it's going to go to the transfer station where we're going to have to

457
02:13:12.239 --> 02:13:29.840
move it several times. It becomes very inefficient other than what's going on now at uh at this facility. So um you know is there any you know not knowing the process intimately is there opportunity for D to

458
02:13:29.840 --> 02:13:44.639
reconsider now that we're 20 years later and the options have dwindled and you know it's easy to say no to to folks like this but I think we're I think we're doing ourselves in here. >> Well I think that's a question for for Lisa.

459
02:13:44.639 --> 02:13:59.920
>> Yeah. So, I I'm listening to this and you know, I didn't do the original opinion on it, but >> um I I I'm going to throw out some ideas um unchecked ideas, which is probably a really bad idea. Um but it's possible

460
02:13:59.920 --> 02:14:15.920
that if if this facility could be smaller than the 10 acres, right? So, you could reduce the size of what you need in footprint. understanding the uh the ne necessary service it provides to

461
02:14:15.920 --> 02:14:31.119
not only Chadam but the region it sounds like right? >> Yes. Y >> um and particularly in uh addressing emergency situations after storms and whatnot and make the case that um and

462
02:14:31.119 --> 02:14:46.719
maybe it's through special legislation where um it's one of a kind of thing. you do want to exchange some of the article 97 land. It would require you to refi to find replacement land. So, you'd

463
02:14:46.719 --> 02:15:03.440
be required to find replacement land um of whatever smaller area. So, let's say you retained 3 acres or 5 acres. I don't, you know, I don't know what the layout is, but you figure out how to close most of it, retain a portion of it, um, be allowed to do that and do an

464
02:15:03.440 --> 02:15:20.239
exchange on for the article 97 purposes. Um, which would be other land that you have that's not currently designated as open space. So, you can't have you can't take land that's not, you know, doesn't have a conservation restriction on or whatever that's already designated. So

465
02:15:20.239 --> 02:15:36.159
it has to be some land that you own that is general municipal or you have to purchase it and that would be the exchange. Um and then uh in addition to that um talk about some exceptions under 30B. don't know that we could get an

466
02:15:36.159 --> 02:15:53.119
entire exception under 30B but certainly you can go out to bid to you know to get the services that you want right so when the contract comes up in seven in 3 years um you figure that out but you would have to do this through special legislation it would have to also go

467
02:15:53.119 --> 02:16:09.280
through the um article 97 review process but I think there's an argument to be made um based upon what I just said that potentially get you there. And if you start now, um, you know, you're 2 and a half years away

468
02:16:09.280 --> 02:16:24.159
from the deadline. >> Miss me. Um, thank you. That, and I think I saw at least some of that in the in the write up on the agenda report. Um, so, and here again, we're just spitballing, but let's say we wanted to

469
02:16:24.159 --> 02:16:41.280
extend this lease for 20 years. I'm just picking numbers. And we're going to we're going to uh say it's 10 acres, but we think we can use five for the next 20 years for this Chadam, but certainly regionally used uh dwindling resource.

470
02:16:41.280 --> 02:16:58.559
Um the replacement property, would that be replacement property for 20 years or is that replacement property in perpetuity? >> Forever. >> It would be forever. >> Yeah. See, that seems somewhat draconian. Um, but whatever. All right,

471
02:16:58.559 --> 02:17:14.719
let's just say we can live with that. I don't know. Um, is there 5 acres somewhere that is general government that we could designate as open space? Uh, we'd have to find that. >> Yeah, I I think so. I mean, you know, obviously you can do just about anything

472
02:17:14.719 --> 02:17:29.439
through special legislation. And then the argument in your example would be that in 20 years, uh, you know, nobody's going to need to dispose of their materials this way and we're going to give you this 5 acres back, right? Um, I don't know what the likelihood of that is. Those are the kinds of things that

473
02:17:29.439 --> 02:17:45.120
they try to avoid. So that's why you're going to need to designate the other parcel um in perpetuity as your article 97 land. >> And that could be a multitude of parcels throughout the community or does it just have to be one contiguous? No, it would be it could be it could be

474
02:17:45.120 --> 02:18:02.399
a couple of parcels to make up the same acreage. It would have to be and this is where you have an advantage. It would have to be as good as or better than the ecological or environmental benefits of the existing parcel. Right. Right. So that's that's an easy one. Um

475
02:18:02.399 --> 02:18:16.479
>> Yeah. >> Okay. Good. Okay. Well, that's some promise. >> Yeah. Yep. Uh Mr. Meadows and then Mr. Niccastro. >> Okay. Just a couple thoughts for I mean I've spent a lot of time in that area. I've you know growing up and dumping stuff and going to get my mulch and

476
02:18:16.479 --> 02:18:34.559
dumping brush and whatever but to scale it back it seems to be I don't want to see this facility shut down myself because I think if we if we it does shut down our transfer station cannot handle that workload. It it can't it's no way

477
02:18:34.559 --> 02:18:50.160
shape or form it'd be a nightmare and a half. But the way the facility is is set up, you you know the business area, then you kind of go further back, you got the residence on the left, and then basically got that the loop road. So that's a pretty vast area. I mean, in

478
02:18:50.160 --> 02:19:07.280
the, if I my opinion is the the back area seems to be a little more cleared out. You've kind of cleaned that up and brought it back a little bit, but that's in the further back. So if we were to, you know, put keep that in play, how where's the access going to come from? But you're still gonna have to go through a, you know, a business area,

479
02:19:07.280 --> 02:19:22.719
commercial area. Um, there's a lot of logistics around this. This is, this is not going to be an easy ask. >> That's what I said. >> I mean, it's not uncomplicated, >> but that on a separate lease, the business area, >> same. Well, >> you get through the business lease. You you drive down the road, you got the scale, you got the the house, you got

480
02:19:22.719 --> 02:19:39.280
all the bins with the mulch, >> but then the stump dump, >> you go a little bit further up. Um, and then there's like there's I don't know how many residents are on the lefth hand side, but basically the access road kind of loop that that's a big old loop and you you can you know go right and go

481
02:19:39.280 --> 02:19:55.600
up the hill and then dump your brush over and then run around and you know this that's just one big loop. Um, we can solve that. I believe access should be solvable since that business area is going to remain.

482
02:19:55.600 --> 02:20:11.200
>> I'm talking about if the the leisure activity that's going to be created, how is that accessible? >> Oh, well, from the from the south, I guess. I don't know, >> Mr. I mean that that that's one of probably

483
02:20:11.200 --> 02:20:28.439
a hundred things and a thousand things we haven't thought of. But there there is an easement running through this property for the property owner that in Harwitch. So I mean there is kind of an access road through there that's not part of the parcels that are part of this 97.

484
02:20:28.560 --> 02:20:44.720
>> Mr. Hoppel would your pre your preference would be to to extend the the lease for the business and the stump dump as well? >> Yes. >> Yes. I mean, >> how long, you know, just we're spitballing again as Mr. Smith said, how long at least are you looking for for >> I mean >> I mean expire

485
02:20:44.720 --> 02:21:01.520
>> personally as long as possible. This is my business. But you know I you know I >> hate how old >> 50. >> Yeah. Young family though. I got to keep working. [laughter] >> The young 50.

486
02:21:01.520 --> 02:21:17.840
>> Yeah. Okay. Mr. Burman. Um, just while we have town council on, like I I personally have not tried to take a property out of 97. I don't know how long that takes forever. >> I don't know if that's, you know, we we've got December 31st, 2029,

487
02:21:17.840 --> 02:21:33.439
kind of a a deadline. Um, that can we feasibly get there through 97, but also, you know, that's when the lease ends. The town would have to go through 30B and probably do an advertisement. If it's a long enough lease, it would have

488
02:21:33.439 --> 02:21:49.520
to go to town meeting. Um, so that even if we take it out of 97, there's not necessarily a guarantee that it could be you. It would just be potentially up for bid and RFP. >> Correct, Lisa?

489
02:21:49.520 --> 02:22:04.560
>> Right. Yeah. So, the answer is it does take a long time to go through article 97, but not not an inordinate amount of time. Right. So go through this um new process first of all to get signoffs on all the various departments um and then

490
02:22:04.560 --> 02:22:20.399
um jointly file the special legislation. So there's going to be a lot of work to do to get that done and to convince um D that this is the right thing to do and then it goes to the legislature. So you have to have your ducks in a row to do that. You have to have the replacement

491
02:22:20.399 --> 02:22:36.000
land. You have to identify what portion of this is going to stay, you know, out of article 97. what portion is going to stay in article 97. Um I think you are going to have to go out to bid. I mean you can file special legislation to

492
02:22:36.000 --> 02:22:52.160
exempt um from 30B. I have done that before and it does you can do it in very unique situations. Um, but also, you know, um, I think this is kind of a unique project and so even if you went out to bid, um, how many people are

493
02:22:52.160 --> 02:23:09.120
going to bid on it, right? That's one of the questions, right? So, um, so the question is how much do you throw into the special legislation to jeopardize what you're really looking for, but that's a decision for you to make. And then, of course, town meeting would have to approve the special legislation home

494
02:23:09.120 --> 02:23:25.280
petition before you send it in anyway. um is so they would approve a longerterm lease at the same time. >> So, so can we work as a consensus as a board work from the notion that our preferences to extend the lease um to to

495
02:23:25.280 --> 02:23:42.319
this this outfit to Mr. Hoppel and and TWW or or another bidder. I suspect there aren't going to be too many folks bidding on this, but can we come to a consensus that that's what like we'd like to do because we I believe that it does provide an invaluable service to the town and to residents of the town and we'd be lost without it. And Corey

496
02:23:42.319 --> 02:23:59.200
makes a great point and it's true. The the transportation would be overwhelmed. They would not be able to handle the the volume would not be able to handle it. So I I think do we have consensus on that? So, so the charge now would be to figure out how we deal with 97 going forward, assuming that we want to extend

497
02:23:59.200 --> 02:24:15.359
some portion of this property in a long longerterm lease beyond December 31st, 29. And how do we most expeditially get there? And we're going to need town council. We're going to need a working group to be honest with you because this is all full of stuff. We're going to need we're going to need some kind of we're going to need an article in the

498
02:24:15.359 --> 02:24:30.880
next town meeting, I think, or I don't think we can wait to 28. We got to have something for ready for 27. I I don't know. I'm making it up. that this is very unique by the way. This is not something we deal with every day. Mr. Niccastro. >> Yeah. I wanted to ask a question. Um is

499
02:24:30.880 --> 02:24:47.920
the the stumps that you're removing um are they hazardous? Is there anything hazardous in that material to the >> I don't think so. It's all organics. I mean I I'm really actually surprised at the lack of other >> debris I've found in there. you know, as

500
02:24:47.920 --> 02:25:02.319
we're digging in there, I certainly expected to find more car parts or pieces of rusty stuff. And um I really I mean, I can count on my fingers the amount of, you know, >> I'm just I asked a question because I

501
02:25:02.319 --> 02:25:18.479
>> found I wonder why the D is so concerned about it. I mean, if it's biodegradable material, [snorts] you just cover it over with a >> That's why I think that they would that's why I think that they may be amendable to this when they look at the region.

502
02:25:18.479 --> 02:25:34.160
>> I go ahead. >> D classifies D classifies stumps differently than they do compost piles for example or leaf piles or you know trees. They classify stumps closer to hazardous material. I don't know why but

503
02:25:34.160 --> 02:25:50.399
there is a different classification on stumps. >> Okay. Well, I I think that um you know enough has been said to to make the case that this is a very unique >> situation um and it has an economic impact not just on Chadam but on the region

504
02:25:50.399 --> 02:26:05.920
>> and um >> and an environmental one >> an environmental >> moving this material 47 times. >> Exactly. Um and you know it and it would seem to me that the town needs to begin moving

505
02:26:05.920 --> 02:26:21.680
very quickly to come up with a proposal working with town council along the lines the chair has suggested. We need to get our legislative delegation involved in this early on so they're not just facilitators but advocates for

506
02:26:21.680 --> 02:26:38.399
whatever we come come up with. I will just make one historic comment. It's easy to make comments in hindsight, but in 2007 when the town acquired this at the um recommendation of the committee on the open space and land bank

507
02:26:38.399 --> 02:26:53.439
committee and and you know they had a charge and they were fulfilling it. But you know now we have a problem historically because we declared all this property n specifically article 97

508
02:26:53.439 --> 02:27:10.800
property. So, um, you know, it it should be a bit of a caution for for us going forward in other other venues. Thank you, Mr. Chair. >> Thank you, Mr. Castro. Mr. Burman, you had your hand up. And >> and I just wanted to follow up. Um, when I was growing up in a state other than

509
02:27:10.800 --> 02:27:27.680
this, we had a stump dump miles and miles away. It caught fire and it could not be put out for many, many years. So, I think that is one of the hazards of a stump dump. Um, that's probably one of the things D is looking at. But I but I also wanted to to clarify, you know,

510
02:27:27.680 --> 02:27:43.520
part of the lease payments that come in from TWW Nickerson uh get spent for groundwater testing that is provided to D to allow these operations to continue >> and and we're near the well. We're near some wells. >> 10 11. >> Yeah.

511
02:27:43.520 --> 02:27:58.319
>> Y. >> Okay. Uh, Miss Potass. So, I agree with everything that's been said and I I think we should try to aim to keep uh this out of an RFP so that this gentleman doesn't have to worry about, you know, his future and it's a way to

512
02:27:58.319 --> 02:28:15.280
treat um you know, local businesses appropriately. And I I commend everyone for bringing this forward um not in the nick of time, but in the in a time and uh I look forward to seeing what kind of rabbit council pulls out of her hat for this.

513
02:28:15.280 --> 02:28:31.200
And uh thank you. >> Thank you, Miss Potes. Any other comments or questions? So Jill, I think it's back to back to us to do to get something cooking here. Um and you know, honestly, time is kind of the essence. I really think we need to have something prepared for the annual meeting next

514
02:28:31.200 --> 02:28:47.200
year and 27 or or earlier if need be. But but this is as unique as it gets that I've seen in my career. >> Even if there was a a fall town meeting, I don't know if there is one. Yeah, I just said that if there was a special >> I thought you meant spring but okay. Um

515
02:28:47.200 --> 02:29:03.280
yeah that then we but I think we have an awful lot of work to do. I think town council has work to do. I think we have some brainstorming to do. We have to figure out if we have other other land whether we can enumerate some of this land is still open and and available for recreation blah blah blah. I mean there's a lot of stuff going on here.

516
02:29:03.280 --> 02:29:18.720
>> I have some suggestions on the land but might not go over well. >> Yeah that's all right. I mean and and as do I. I mean, I pretty much familiar with every piece of every parcel we own in this town. >> Can't help myself. >> All right, >> Peter, thanks for bringing it to my attention whenever. >> Thank you very much. If anyone has any questions, I I'll call your office with

517
02:29:18.720 --> 02:29:35.200
my cell number and if anyone ever wants a tour or anything to see what we're doing, I'm happy to facilitate that. Thank Thank you. >> Great. Thank you, Peter. >> I used to go up to the pig farm and Nickerson's up there and have some fun. Okay. >> So, I just have a question. >> I just have a question for the board. Um, this was the last item we had Lisa

518
02:29:35.200 --> 02:29:50.800
participating. I didn't know if the item on citizen petition did you also want town council participating in if not we can let her go. >> You know I wouldn't mind having town council here for for that discussion. Would you like to >> like to elevate number E over the

519
02:29:50.800 --> 02:30:06.880
writers code of culvert? Although I'm >> want to hear about the writers code of culvert and Mr. Burman is here but anyway why why don't we go to uh citizens petition process and procedure >> um which is business agenda item number E and Lisa please stick around. Um, this is an agenda item request by Mr. Smith

520
02:30:06.880 --> 02:30:23.840
and Mr. Dykins. Uh, and Shauna will be here as well. I, you know, I'll I'll I'll tee it up a little bit and then Stuart, you chime in, please, and and ju just, uh, looking to get, uh, more of a streamlined and procedure process and procedure for a citizens petition and

521
02:30:23.840 --> 02:30:40.160
understand what the role of, uh, our either, uh, local moderator and or town council is or isn't with respect to those citizens petitions is is where I'm coming from. We have a form as as well that's been presented in the package that um the clerk and the executive

522
02:30:40.160 --> 02:30:53.600
office uh Jill's office is looking for some guidance. Um so I I thought we'd start there and Stuart, I'll turn to you and then I know Dean has some thoughts as well. I'm sure Randy does as well and Corey. So >> to you Stuart. >> Thank you Jeeoff. Y

523
02:30:53.600 --> 02:31:09.920
>> um so I had uh I had asked this um back in May. Um the s >> [snorts] >> This has kind of taken on a mind of its own because um my original uh agenda

524
02:31:09.920 --> 02:31:28.319
request was simply to chat about the um uh whether it was uh appropriate for uh a citizens petition for for to ask town council to opine on the legality of of the citizens petition. Not a regular

525
02:31:28.319 --> 02:31:45.120
article for town meeting, but a citizens petition. um designed specifically to go around this board. That's the intent of the whole citizens petition. The citizens, a citizen, a group of 10 have decided that they don't like the action of this board and they have the right to

526
02:31:45.120 --> 02:31:59.600
petition their legislature. And this is the this is the process by which they do that. And I my concern is um that when we ask for the um uh town council to

527
02:31:59.600 --> 02:32:18.319
opine that it it um it kind of taints or throws cold water on that process because um you know you can ask 15 different lawyers the same question, you might get different answers and uh this one would be for town council. So, is is

528
02:32:18.319 --> 02:32:36.479
that appropriate that um town council um you know instills a chilling effect on that process and I don't think that that's something that uh it was designed for when uh when it was originally the citizens petition was originally conceived. I I did ask for the

529
02:32:36.479 --> 02:32:53.439
legislative history of this. I haven't seen that um on this citizens petition specifically. My guess I don't know. Oh, we have a couple of attorneys here, but well, we have more than a couple uh attorneys might opine on uh what the

530
02:32:53.439 --> 02:33:10.640
state constitution uh how they reference the citizens petition if at all. Um but I do think it's we should be careful because I just want to reiterate that this citizens petition is specifically designed to go around this board and I don't think we

531
02:33:10.640 --> 02:33:26.960
should be stepping in the way of that. They should have easy, complete, and unfettered access to the legislature. Um, and if it gets to town meeting, um, which it has to, we have to put it on the, uh, on the warrant, u, citizens petition. if it

532
02:33:26.960 --> 02:33:42.319
gets to town meeting and a legislature, one of the members of town meeting or the board had a question of town council at that point. I'm not sure I would uh I'm not sure I would object to that because uh at least the process has

533
02:33:42.319 --> 02:33:57.439
played out. There hasn't been any uh undue influence on the petition uh before it gets to town meeting. So, uh, that was really I had some other thoughts, but I'll I'll wait to hear from my fellow board members on uh on

534
02:33:57.439 --> 02:34:14.399
that. The um I think the form, frankly, is a is a trivial issue. I'm not even sure what it's doing before the board. I do not know >> of another instance where a a form of town government like a paper form that somebody's going to fill out comes

535
02:34:14.399 --> 02:34:30.321
before this board for a debate. So, I think I don't know how that got mixed in with this, but I don't think it's appropriate. >> Um, and uh, you know, the um, uh, we've had a long-standing form. We can revise that if if if the uh, government

536
02:34:30.321 --> 02:34:44.479
[snorts] uh, feels that's appropriate, but um, I'm not interested in changing uh, what we have historically used for decades now. Thank you. >> Okay, Mr. Niccastro. >> Um, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, let me just say as to the form, we have two

537
02:34:44.479 --> 02:35:02.160
forms. one the town clerk has and one the town manager's office has. Um I think there should be one form. Uh it should be simpler um than what we're seeing. Um and I don't know what the word actionable means. I I suspect that was put in there

538
02:35:02.160 --> 02:35:18.880
by um a former town council and maybe it in in that in the mind of that town council. I I don't know. It wasn't around uh back then. Um it it referred to um legal uh viability of of of the

539
02:35:18.880 --> 02:35:34.560
document. Um let me say a few things and I respect Stuart's opinion, but um the warrant that goes to town meeting is the select board's warrant. It's it's not the warrant

540
02:35:34.560 --> 02:35:52.080
um of any other body in town. Town meeting is purely a legislative body. Town meeting doesn't run the town. The select board runs the town with the town manager. I personally think that even though

541
02:35:52.080 --> 02:36:09.439
there seems to be some um legal precedent for select boards to deny placement of a petition article on the warrant. There's a case that's in the packet that was provided by uh Mr.

542
02:36:09.439 --> 02:36:26.080
Talerman to that effect. I personally believe that any petition article that is submitted should go on the warrant and the select board should not uh remove it or deny his placement on the warrant

543
02:36:26.080 --> 02:36:44.880
except if there if the article contains salacious defamatory language or calls for a criminal act or something similar to that which I've never seen. Um, I suspect that is the opinion of our current town moderator. Um, I know I've

544
02:36:44.880 --> 02:37:01.439
had conversation with him about this in the past. Other moderators may be feel differently. Having said that, I think all petition articles should be reviewed in advance by town council for potential legal infirmity

545
02:37:01.439 --> 02:37:18.479
prior prior to the vote that this select board has to take on whether to recommend the article to town meeting. >> Exactly. >> I don't want to be making votes in the dark. I don't think ignorance is bliss. I think it would be important and useful

546
02:37:18.479 --> 02:37:35.520
for members of the finance committee who also supposed to make recommendations to town meeting to know whether there's a potential legal issue and I think it certainly is important for the voters of town meeting to know that. Um I requested an opinion of town council on

547
02:37:35.520 --> 02:37:50.720
an article that was in the warrant this year and I specifically made it public made sure it became public because I wanted the voters to know about it. I I um I don't think it provides a chilling

548
02:37:50.720 --> 02:38:06.880
effect. Town meeting members, town meeting voters, select board members, finance committee members can deliberate, consider or not consider and even reject the opinion of town council, which could very well be wrong.

549
02:38:06.880 --> 02:38:23.120
And we had an instance of this in my understanding some years ago uh with the um formula business bylaw. My understanding is that historically town council uh and I don't know whether that was a petition article. I suspect it was town

550
02:38:23.120 --> 02:38:40.160
council at the time advised um that it it was legally infirm but town meeting voted it in anyway. It went to the attorney general and the attorney general approved it. That's my understanding of the history of that. So there's an example

551
02:38:40.160 --> 02:38:55.040
that disproves the chilling effect of this. Um, I think when town council reviews these articles, uh, if he or she determines that there's a legal,

552
02:38:55.040 --> 02:39:11.600
um, a potential legal issue, he or she should inform the select board promptly through the town manager and issue a written opinion that is well articulated and well reasoned so the select board can have that information when we make

553
02:39:11.600 --> 02:39:28.080
our recommendation to town meeting. I'll say one other thing. Regardless of whatever policy this board might want to approve or not approve, I personally believe that I, as an individual member of this select board and any other member of this board, can

554
02:39:28.080 --> 02:39:42.880
ask for a legal opinion of town council any time. I've asked for multiple opinions in my almost 12 years now on this board. And if I see a petition article coming forward that I think is problematic from a legal standpoint and

555
02:39:42.880 --> 02:39:57.920
I have some expertise because I'm an attorney, um I'm going to request that opinion and when the opinion comes in, whatever the conclusion is, I'm going to ask that it be made public because I don't want

556
02:39:57.920 --> 02:40:13.120
uninformed voters making decisions for the town. That's that's my opinion. So I think the process is fairly simple. Everything should go on the warrant. Town council should review them and provide

557
02:40:13.120 --> 02:40:30.000
information to the various bodies of the town starting with the select board and the town manager when in some instances he or he or she believes there is a legal impediment and it may not be. I've disagreed with town council's opinions

558
02:40:30.000 --> 02:40:45.920
from time to time. Uh I've honored them. Um, sometimes I think they're a bit too timid. Um, but um, th those are my thoughts on it. Um, and I I don't think it's a bad process. I'll close by saying I come

559
02:40:45.920 --> 02:41:02.000
from the experience of having been city solicitor of a significant municipality in this commonwealth. In a city, the legislative body is not town meeting. It's the city council. I attended every meeting of the city council and every committee meeting of

560
02:41:02.000 --> 02:41:18.720
the city council. They wanted to know my opinion of various items that were on their agenda. Now, it's different in that in a city ordinances which are comparable to bylaws don't go to the attorney general. They only go to the attorney general

561
02:41:18.720 --> 02:41:36.640
from a town. And by the way, the argument that well the let's let the attorney general deal with this only applies if the petition article calls for a bylaw change. If the petition article calls for some sort of contractual or financial uh

562
02:41:36.640 --> 02:41:53.920
commitment on the part of the town and there's no opinion of town council and it pres and there is always the there could be the prospect of legal exposure or legal liability to the town for having taken for the town meeting to have taken that action. So, I'm in favor

563
02:41:53.920 --> 02:42:09.120
of information, transparency, uh, and, um, and, um, well, well-informed voting. So, I and I respect what Stuart's saying. I don't want to, uh, interfere with the right of

564
02:42:09.120 --> 02:42:26.080
people to make their their petitions to, um, the legislative body of the town. They have that right under state law, and that should be sacredly honored. Thank you, Mr. Sure. >> Thank you, Mr. Niccastro. Any other comment from board members here? Miss

565
02:42:26.080 --> 02:42:40.880
Potach, >> I mean, I um I wanted to comment on the forms. I think that they should be simple and we should only have one. >> Um and we're not going to necessarily draft that today at this meeting, but I I I do think that we should only have

566
02:42:40.880 --> 02:42:56.000
one. And I think it should just be suggested that people um utilize um go through the um the town uh administration to facilitate if they would like to. They don't have to. Um

567
02:42:56.000 --> 02:43:11.600
but just for their best results. Um I also think that I would not want to um vote whether or not I think um an article should go on the warrant. No, not going whether I'd recommend it without town council's um opinion

568
02:43:11.600 --> 02:43:28.240
because I do think that sets us up for um some legal ramifications, especially if it's not going to go to the attorney general in the long run. Um but I do think like like Dean said everything should go on the on the warrant. That's fine. And we could talk about the

569
02:43:28.240 --> 02:43:45.040
legalities after it's already on there. >> So that's the way I look at it. >> Mr. Meadows. >> Thank you, Mr. chair. Um, no, I mean I I I complete respect for what is trying to bring up for conversation and I understand

570
02:43:45.040 --> 02:44:00.960
I can I understand some of it and but I have more some questions because our citizens petitions that are brought forward there they come from sometimes it's just a single individual doing everything on their own. Sometimes it's a a group of people that are collaborating with different backgrounds

571
02:44:00.960 --> 02:44:17.359
that may, you know, may have a legal background, may have a sort of specialty that bring it forward. Um, some people do, some people have reached out to staff and I said, "Hey, can you clarify this?" I'm sure people have reached out to our town council before um to ask for guidance on this is what I want to bring

572
02:44:17.359 --> 02:44:35.040
forward. So, you know, we we have all these resources, you know, staff to our town council to help the citizens petition. Um, but once the citizens petition is is verified as far as signatures go and it's qualifies to to move forward, um,

573
02:44:35.040 --> 02:44:50.000
the select absolutely should not be a gatekeeper saying no, you can't go forward. If it if it's a certified 10 signatures, that's it. It goes to town meeting up or down. We don't I have no desire to become a gatekeeper and trying to pre prevent it. Um but I do find

574
02:44:50.000 --> 02:45:06.800
merit because the town council opinion is not just just for the select board. It's also for all the the voters because you know a lot of people who attend town meeting some are very well informed of what's going on and

575
02:45:06.800 --> 02:45:23.680
some are kind of just on the floor learning all the details. So, I'd like to have that town council opinion ahead of time so people can kind of process it. Um, and if they have a question about it at town meeting floor, they can press it a little bit further. Um, instead of, you know, having that

576
02:45:23.680 --> 02:45:38.640
discussion strictly at town meeting floor. So, I think I think there is some merit having town council opinion ahead of time just unlike any other article. Um, and I don't think it's ownorous. Um, I do think it's beneficial. Um and you

577
02:45:38.640 --> 02:45:53.840
know with respect I mean we have a couple councils in the room right now. It it is a professional opinion. Um [clears throat] we have we have to uh trust our town council. We put a lot of um merit into their opinion and their guidance for us. Um and I think that is

578
02:45:53.840 --> 02:46:10.560
is it's something that is part of the process that is beneficial to us when we finally make the recommendation on a citizen's petition. So I I feel a little bit differently than Stuart. I have a lot of respect for his position on it. uh completely, but I have a little bit of a different twist on it. So,

579
02:46:10.560 --> 02:46:26.240
>> thank you, Mr. Meadows. Uh I I do think that a better informed select board and uh a voting public uh is is is enhanced by having the information or the uh opinion of town council. We we vote on

580
02:46:26.240 --> 02:46:42.720
citizens petitions um as does the finance committee. And I would think that both both bodies I know I think I think this body would would want to have town council's opinion um as part and parcel of making a decision on a recommendation. Number one. Number two, I think town meeting the voters of town

581
02:46:42.720 --> 02:46:58.560
meeting are better informed. They may disagree, but they're better informed uh if town council has weighed in um and they're informed as to his or her opinion. So I think we're we're better informed and we're better we're going to make better decisions if we're better informed. may not always agree with town

582
02:46:58.560 --> 02:47:15.359
council, but uh I think that it's value added. That's why one of the reasons why they're there. Um I I also don't I think town council's opinion for the folks at town meeting is very is extremely helpful. Um especially if he if they

583
02:47:15.359 --> 02:47:30.160
find there are legal infirmities with a citizens petition, it could potentially save time of many other parties including the AG's office. Um if if our voters are informed as to that that something a citizens petition has

584
02:47:30.160 --> 02:47:47.520
infirmities that are likely to not be upheld uh by the AG, it may sway some votes and and save time. I want to be as efficient as we can um with everybody's time, our citizens, the AG's office, and us in the finance committee. So I I I think the process of having town council

585
02:47:47.520 --> 02:48:04.160
um have an opinion. Uh I agree 100% with what Mr. Diccastro said earlier. um you know and and we don't we put every single citizen's petition that's been uh approved by the clerk and the uh signatures have been approved uh on the

586
02:48:04.160 --> 02:48:20.720
warrant um for better for worse. So those are my thoughts and I agree 100%. I really think that it I I actually agree adamantly uh with that position. Uh Mr. Niccastro Mr. chairman, not to

587
02:48:20.720 --> 02:48:36.560
put anybody on the spot, but I guess I am. I noticed the moderator is on line. I don't know if he has any thoughts. >> Yeah, I >> the town clerk is also online. >> Mr. Lichfield, good evening. Any thoughts regarding this? And I have I and I would like to know I I know that

588
02:48:36.560 --> 02:48:52.800
historically sometimes folks have come to you just to kind of have you review the form and format, if you will, and the nature of the petition. So, a little comment there would be helpful, Bill. Thank you. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. It's it's obviously it's been a long evening for you so I'll try to be relatively

589
02:48:52.800 --> 02:49:10.240
brief. Uh plainly there should be one form and that's a simple matter. As Miss Pot House said it's not going to be uh resolved tonight but I'm sure that the town clerk and town manager's office can work together and I'd be happy to assist. Uh under the statute uh as

590
02:49:10.240 --> 02:49:24.640
several members Mr. in the cast room and others have said any citizens petition uh article which has 10 signatures has to go on the warrant. Interestingly uh there's been a position for the last

591
02:49:24.640 --> 02:49:40.960
number of years that there's something magic about the language and if there's a typographical error it can't be changed. What the statute actually says is that the subject matter, not the not the article as written, but the subject

592
02:49:40.960 --> 02:49:58.479
matter shall be inserted. And I think there's sort of a fear of a slippery slope, but I think that citizens who who exercise their rights to petition channel meeting for for an article or for a vote, I think it would be helpful if they had

593
02:49:58.479 --> 02:50:16.000
a resource other than the moderator. I'm a lawyer, but as we know, they're dime a dozen. There's at least 20 cents worth in this room. Um, it would be useful if citizens petition petitioners had access to to town council before getting the

594
02:50:16.000 --> 02:50:31.760
signatures that might preclude legal infirmities or they might be able to be persuaded that there's a better route to go. So, I think that these are fairly small changes, sort of tweaks that can be made to our process. Uh, I would hope

595
02:50:31.760 --> 02:50:47.920
that I get a feeling sometimes that and and I don't disagree with Mr. Smith, but entirely, but I'm not sure that citizens petitions are a means of trying to get around the select board. Uh there's perhaps sometimes just things that you

596
02:50:47.920 --> 02:51:03.359
haven't yet considered, but if the voters had the voters who were active in in drafting petitions, they come to me, but again, I'm not town counsel. If they had access through Miss Goldmith's office, that might preclude some problems. Those are a few thoughts again

597
02:51:03.359 --> 02:51:20.000
for late evening and I'll I'll try to send a memo to the board at some point through the town manager which sort of explain some of my thoughts further. Thank you. >> Yes. No, thank you, Bill. Thanks for thanks for being here. Appreciate it. >> Mr. Niccastro,

598
02:51:20.000 --> 02:51:35.439
>> do you want to ask town council if she has any comments? I know there's a member of the public though. >> Lisa, any any thoughts on that? Do you get such requests from other towns? >> So, this is a great discussion. This is entirely a policy decision. Um, we have

599
02:51:35.439 --> 02:51:50.560
towns that, and I will say most of our towns have us look for um legal infirmities um in warrant articles and advise Slackboard. I have um a couple of towns who don't let us touch articles

600
02:51:50.560 --> 02:52:08.800
>> um at all. Um but um those frankly tend to have problems when the motions are presented and things of that nature. So, um, it's but nonetheless, it's completely a policy question for the board and we are happy to do exactly what the board would like us to do.

601
02:52:08.800 --> 02:52:24.560
>> Thank you, Lisa. >> Mr. Chairman, I I could I just ask Lisa this question and maybe Jill is so I I recall um around the time we were dealing with our town meeting, I think it was the town of Haritch and and I know Shauna has looked into this. Um, in

602
02:52:24.560 --> 02:52:39.120
the in the chronicle they were looking at a process and maybe even the town of Brewster to to to assist citizens in the drafting of their petitions by working with town council and that's would seem to me and Bill suggested that a moment

603
02:52:39.120 --> 02:52:57.279
ago and I one way of um perhaps um facilitating the process and making sure that people feel included. Yeah, I could say that uh Brewster has a a citizens guide to town meeting for petitioned articles. I think it was um

604
02:52:57.279 --> 02:53:15.600
as recent as January of 2025. And many of these citizen guides are listed on this on mass.gov under the um I think secretary of state's page. But nonetheless, it's we've always welcomed people to come to the town manager's office as a starting point. And I think

605
02:53:15.600 --> 02:53:30.720
probably it it doesn't happen that often, but probably at this last town meeting, um the petitioner uh we did have them uh work with town council, not on a policy issue, but more of the the legality or the affirm infirmity of what

606
02:53:30.720 --> 02:53:47.920
they were hoping to get approved. So, um certainly it's it's I think it's really worthwhile before someone gets the signatures. So, um, it could be sometimes we get handwritten citizen petitions that are are brought to the

607
02:53:47.920 --> 02:54:05.439
office. And again, we'll work with anybody. I don't think anything, you know, regardless of a form or not, it's going to really impede someone's access to submit a citizen petition. I I do think that going further upstream when the uh motion, if you will, or the

608
02:54:05.439 --> 02:54:21.760
sentiment is drafted to have town council take a look before it even comes to us. I think it's probably a really good idea. It's going to save time. It's going to save time. It's going to the citizens petition will result in a in a better draft, if you will. Um my thoughts. >> What if the citizen doesn't want that? >> Then they don't they don't have to do

609
02:54:21.760 --> 02:54:36.399
it. >> They don't have to do it. >> Randy, please. >> Yeah. So currently our our town council has us on the type of retainer where we get a lot of hours a month. But in the event we don't have that opportunity,

610
02:54:36.399 --> 02:54:53.520
then are we going to have $500 a month bills from citizens to to to get help with their with their citizens positions? I mean, we have to think about that if we have a different structure of paying town council. And also it should never be sent to town

611
02:54:53.520 --> 02:55:10.399
council unless the person wants it um prior to being placed on the warrant. That those are my opinion. And also if you look at our charter uh 4-7E um it really is incumbent on the town manager to know exactly what's happening with those warrant articles because she

612
02:55:10.399 --> 02:55:25.120
needs to be able to answer to that if anyone asks her a town meeting. So I I I am in favor of the idea that people start with our town um administrator and and get the help from from uh different departments if that's what they want.

613
02:55:25.120 --> 02:55:41.120
But they're not obligated to do it and I don't think anything online should say we that strong to even strongly encourage it. It's just an option that they could take up if they'd like. >> Okay. Well said Randy. Thank you. Um we have a hand up. Ela Gibbs, your hand is

614
02:55:41.120 --> 02:55:56.080
up. >> Yes. Uh thank you. [clears throat] The select board is the executive branch, town meeting board or the legislative branch. We all agree on that. Under the bylaws and the charter, the town council [clears throat]

615
02:55:56.080 --> 02:56:13.040
works for the select board and the town manager. They he does not work for the voter. 10 town council opinions will give you 10 town council different answers. Okay. the select board. Um, as the executive

616
02:56:13.040 --> 02:56:29.680
branch, uh, the role of the select board is only to call a town meeting to place articles on the warrant with the select board vote included. If that means you want to get an opinion before you take your vote, you can go ahead and do that

617
02:56:29.680 --> 02:56:47.040
in my opinion. But that's where your impact on [snorts] town meetings should stop. Um, you should not be participating in any discussions in my view on town meeting floor. Uh, there has been a parade. You

618
02:56:47.040 --> 02:57:03.200
have your chance as a select board to make your position known when you put them on the warrant. But after that, by law, that is your only role. We had a parade of select board members going up in addition uh to their role that a

619
02:57:03.200 --> 02:57:19.920
limited role at town meeting to try and influence the voters. Uh any attempt to do that I think is a is a a separation of powers violation. All citizen petitions do go to the attorney general for review of any

620
02:57:19.920 --> 02:57:36.000
conflict with state, federal, or municipal law. We pay the town council to work against us in this situation because we do pay his salary and we also pay the attorney general. I'm not concerned about the attorney general being bogged down and we're wasting

621
02:57:36.000 --> 02:57:52.319
their time. That's their job. We pay for it. We expect them to give it a full uh review. Uh anything less is you're working against our our right to petition. Uh there should be no phone

622
02:57:52.319 --> 02:58:10.319
calls uh which have happened in the past by our town council to the attorney general's office. There should be no contact at all. This is supposed to be an autonomous process where the attorney general determines whether or not it is legitimate and we'll take our chances.

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We don't want to give up our right to petition. And I think the select board and town manager have overstepped their bounds uh at previous town meetings attempting to influence voters.

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We're not dumb. Uh and we have a right to petition. So, uh I would hope you would not allow any interference with town council once the citizen petition is put on the

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warrant. And I don't think there should be any participation by the select board beyond their role. They've already had their say. It's our town meeting, not the executive branch. Thank you. >> Thank you, Elaine. That was three minutes. Mr. Niccastro. >> Mr. Chairman, I I feel compelled to respond to some of the points that Miss

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Gibbs made. First of all, >> town council's client is not the select board. We we appoint him or her. Towns council's client is the town of Chadam. I'm not looking for a town council that's going to tell me what I want to hear.

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I want towns council's advice to be for what he or she thinks is legally in the best interest of the town of Chadam. Secondly, I have an absolute right as a member of this board and as a member and as a voter at town meeting to speak at

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town meeting and say anything I want. I've been doing it for 12 years. I'm not going to stop. So that's just a totally baseless assertion. Thirdly, not all petition articles go to

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the attorney general. Only the ones that call for a bylaw change and are voted as such. And finally, as far as town council's approach in reviewing a document and uh consulting with the the

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bylaws office, at the attorney general's office, that's simply responsible legal review. I don't think we should be circumscribing how town council or any legal uh any attorney for the town conducts their services for us for us.

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So, um, I just dispute almost everything Elaine just said. I respect her right to say it, but I also respect my right to respond as just as I have just now. Thank you, Mr. >> Thank you, Mr. Niccastro. Okay, we're going to go. Mr. Ray has his Mr. Ray has

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his hand up now. Mr. Ray, you'd like to speak? [sighs] So, um, I've learned in the past that I should say what I came to say. >> Actually, Mr. Ray, can you identify yourself, please? >> Oh, I'm sorry. I'm Chris Ray from North Channon.

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Uh, so yeah, I better put the specs on. Um, so I'd like to thank particularly Stuart for bringing this matter up. It is an an important first amendment issue and I have as you know relevant recent

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experience from this side of the fence which should illustrate how seriously the debt can currently be stacked against a citizen petitioner. Uh my recent experience from my perspective I grant you played out as

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follows. A reasonable agenda item request to address an issue was ignored and as a result of that a formal petition was initiated. Town council slowwalked [snorts] their actionability review of the

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petition amounting to a filibuster. It turns out this is neither required nor enforceable. And then the full resources of the town council were deployed to fabricate a grossly misleading legal pretext to

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manipulate town meeting. So if I take those one at a time, the first is easy to deal with because a little bit of common courtesy would come down very nicely. Removing the unnecessary actionability review would be a good step forward. On the second,

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you are welcome to chase whatever advice you like, but that's advice to you. It's not, and no one can pretend that's advice to the town. [snorts] The third, which is the resources of the

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board, is actually the toughest one to deal with. Everything else is process related. But if you're serious about solving this problem, which it seems only Stuart is, it needs to be dealt with. Stuart focused on the heart of it in the

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town meeting debrief. The very purpose of the petition is to bypass the select board and exercise their first amendment right to petition their government. >> [clears throat] >> The select board already have the luxury

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of debating all petitions and petitioners in their own public meetings, voting their opinion and presenting the con their conclusions in the warrant. These are extravagant privileges, ones that we don't share.

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Any further interference once the warrant is published is an absolute no no in my opinion. Particularly egregious examples of such interference would include >> Mr. Ray, we're at we're at negative negative time here. Please please

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conclude would include calling out dubious and misleading legal opinions and then hawking them around the attorney general's office before the motion has even been paid even been made. Citizen position petitions subject to

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the authority of town meeting need to be allowed to follow their own trajectory to the attorney general without any further interference from the executive branch. >> Thank you very much Mr. Phillips. >> Brian Phillips 374 Road. So I got a

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citizen petition uh passed. Um and I just like to say that the town clerk's office and Mr. Lichfield were uh instrumental in doing that. they made it very easy uh for me to do and if I can get a citizen petition's pass I think pretty much anybody can um and then the

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other thing I want to touch on um I do think if uh a citizen petition petition is um you know harmful or there there are certain cases where the select board should be able to keep it off the warrant. Um, I know I think you guys should use extreme uh discretion because

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you're going to have to live with the consequences, you know, of keeping it off the warrant, but I think under certain circumstances, the select board should reserve the right to keep uh certain petitions off the warrant. Thank you. >> There's actually some case law with respect to that as well, Mr. Phillips. Mr. Smith,

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>> there there's there's two problems with that and supporting that. One is contained in statute where it requires us to put it on the warrant, any citizens petition. that seems to be uh you know the case law that I've read that was supplied. I'm not sure that

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that issue was resolved. Um and if it wasn't resolved well then the statute seems to me to stand and the statute clearly says we are required to place it on the warrant. >> There's no question. >> Okay. Well, >> apparently there was because we just had

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a a a speaker Mr. Phillips questioned that. I'm saying we have to put it on the >> We do by by statute. that that well two things. The second one is contained in the home rule charter. It's not in 4-7 which I think is a misread of 4-7. Um

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the home rule petition in section 22-6 specifically deals with warrant articles and that we uh petition articles are required to be placed on the warrant. So there are two actually laws that deal with that. And lastly, I'm not sure we're going to

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get into the uh form, but um uh there are I I can outline significant deficiencies in the town manager's form that I'm not happy with. >> So, we we're going to we can either >> I think we should I think we should remand that to the town manager's office

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and the clerk's office to work it out. That's what I think we ought to do. Well, what I'm saying is when there is a remanding to to the town clerk's office, it is the town manager's word that will go through. Period. Town clerk works for the town manager. So, here, hold on a

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second. I'm not done. >> Okay. >> The form the form specifically says in the town manager's form is to return it to the town manager's office um not to the town clerk's office for certification of the of the signatures. So, the process is deeply flawed. I

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agree. We should not have two forms. That's easy. And we should be using the form that complies with the statute, the charter, and history. >> And of course, the town clerk has to certify the signatures. Always have. >> Well, but if you look at the form, if you look at the form, that's not the

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process they use. >> Well, let's make sure the form reads that way. >> Okay. >> Goodness gracious. Okay. Uh any motion that anybody would like to forward this evening in terms of the process for uh citizens petitions? Mr. in a Castro. >> I have no motion because I don't think

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there's a problem. I think there is a problem with the forms >> and that they should be resolved, but the process is fine with me. >> Okay, >> Miss Potes. >> So, maybe we could just ask the town manager to um to look at the form and come back with something that might um

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go along with what's been said today. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Yeah, there's plenty of examples. >> You with me? Okay. With us? Okay. Thank you very much for your participation, everybody. Last item in the >> Mr. Mr. Chairman, I may get bogged down in details, but

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that remanding >> doesn't work. >> You said initially, Mr. Smith, you said initially you didn't care about the forms. You said that initially in your comment. >> That was before this discussion. Now that this discussion is st Now I do care. Now I do care about the form. >> I think the town manager and and the

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clerk can figure out the right form. >> Okay. All I'm telling all >> all I'm telling you is if that form does not comply with the way business has been done and the law I'm bringing it back before this board and we would welcome it Mr. Smith. I doubt it.

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>> I don't. Last item on our agenda this evening is the appointment of folks to the uh working group. >> I'm gonna I'm gonna say good night to everyone. >> Good night Lisa. >> Thank you Lisa. >> Take care. Thanks for your participation.

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>> My pleasure. >> So, Greg Burman, your director of natural resources. Um, considering the lateness of the evening, I just have a very few slides to go over. I mean, I this is still a very important topic. happy to answer any questions. This is

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the Writer's Cove Culver, which is aka access to Stillwater Pond, aka the Herring Run. Um, I have a map of it over here on the left, uh, where the conservation foundation property is

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right on either side of it, and you can kind of see where the water uh, is going under Route 28. uh it still is going under route 28 albeit um restricted. So this is one where we've been working

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it the problem has been identified for decades. As of 2022 we actually have some funding from NRCS the federal agency um to provide design engineering and construction. Uh we just got the

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engineer PAR on board and that was part of the schedule that I showed. Um so the total award is $1.8 million uh paid for by the federal um NRCS program. Um the

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engineering is 317 and then the construction and project management makes up the rest of that. non-federal match would likely come from a 2022 town meeting article unless we can talk the state into picking up a bit more of

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that. Um, you know, DOT is a partner. DMF is I'm sorry. >> Oh, please go ahead. >> Uh, DMF is a very big partner. Um, actually Brad Chase of Marine Fisheries um, wrote the fish passage report uh, to

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kind of help get this process started. We also, you know, have a herring warden, David Peterson, who does monitor and work with our Americanore on an annual basis, usually in March to clear the herring run. The images are a little

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dark. Um, but that that is the uh still water pond access through there. will usually have oh anywhere up to a dozen Americanore out there at a given time just really you know clearing and and allowing the fish to pass and what we

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have right now you know our our surveys have been done they're still working on the H&H study u but we are on track or at least we have a schedule and track now honestly I think the schedule might be a little ambitious

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to be able to do construction before next spring, but at least it's potential. You know, a lot of it has to do with what the construction estimates come back as and if it's higher than the initial amount, we need to renegotiate with NRCS to see who's paying for what.

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But a lot of that's going to be after we put the documents out to bid and we still have to go through permitting and a few other things, but this is what we have so far. >> Greg, did you mention your grant that you that the team recently was awarded? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, um this is one of

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six projects funded by NRCS. Um Frostfish Creek is another one, and that's something that we did just receive another $500,000 of uh engineering and design money for. So, that's money that did not need a match and is provided to the Frost

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Fostish Creek project. Um [snorts] so we have the partners of DOT on that project and similar partners on this project. We also have a few more storm water related. Frostfish Creek is marsh

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restoration. This one is fish passage. All of which are kind of under that DER NRCS DMF acronym soup of uh stakeholders. But, you know, funding has been coming forward for this. Um, specifically, Fos Frost Fish Creek uh

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has had a lot of funding come in and we've been able to offset any uh non-federal match so far. And that's hopefully my intention moving forward. >> So, the attention here is on the culvert. It's on the the underneath the roadway. It's caved in and the herring have a lot of difficulty and there very

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few herring now that access it. So at one time an extremely viable herring run for both Still Water Pond and Lover's Lake. Um but so you know sooner the better to be honest with you. I don't know what the town what the state is planning to get in to do construction but it's pretty much caved in.

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>> Yeah. This is an extremely high priority not just for the town but for the state. Yeah. >> You know this is our herring run. >> Yeah. This the only one we have. >> Yeah. Um, and you know, it's not what we want to have happen. If if this were to fully collapse and stop

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access, potentially state agencies would start butting heads at that point. That does DMF have the power to push DOT to maintain fish passage. >> Right. >> Um, you know, we we don't want to lose a season. We don't want to lose a generation because that can be incredibly impactful for trying to

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reestablish herring in the area. >> Correct. Correct. So, we're we're moving forward. You know, hopefully we'll get DOT on board financially. Um, and if not, we have a lot of federal and state partners who are willing to pony up and help us.

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>> Well, DOT's got to do the road work, though, in the covert work. >> Well, right now they're on the team, but not financially. >> Okay. >> Although we're we're trying. >> Yeah. Okay. Timeline again, Greg. I'm sorry.

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>> Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, we're still in the design phase. We haven't gotten to the 60%. We're still in the 30% design. So, it's a little bit beyond conceptual. Uh, right now there's an 18-inch culvert that's mostly collapsed. You know,

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whether it is two 4ft openings, one 8ft opening. It's it wouldn't be as big as the Frost Fish Creek, which is more like a 10 or 12 foot opening. Uh this is just really to make it big enough for the fish passage. It's not necessarily to restore full

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hydraulic flow for salt marsh, although that's a co- benefit. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Any questions for Greg on the writer's cove? >> Yeah, I have a couple questions. Um, Greg, in in an effort to try to avoid what

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went on at the Cedar Swamp half a dozen years ago, um, is it's an existing 18-inch concrete pipe and has been identified blah blah blah. Um, and and you you had just mentioned it's not to in necessarily to enhance the flow, but

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keep it as presently flowing. >> Right? So it's not intended to fully restore hydraulic flow for salt marsh like the other project. This is somewhat that but more it's just to make sure that the flow speed and volumes are such

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that it doesn't impede the herring going through. >> So at the conclusion well are we going to be impacting any private property at all or do we know that yet? >> We don't know that yet. You know, I I

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certainly don't think so for this project. It's going to be much less you of an opening than the salt marsh restoration that kind of by definition is expanding salt marsh in some areas. That's part of this H&H study that they're doing review on. And when they

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come up with the final sizing is when we see how the flow changes. But as of right now, I'd be very surprised if there were private property impacts. It's not the intention, but it will be reviewed >> because there is a plan you know, I haven't seen it, but I've

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been told there's a plan floating around that uh I don't know who initiated it that um uh addresses this issue, but it impacts private property with structures and additional flooding and things like that. And I just want to kind of avoid

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what we what was proposed down at the Cedar Swamp and we don't get into that sort of problem. >> Yeah. So, right now, I mean, we are having discussions with property owners at Frostfish Creek. Um, but that's not this project. >> Okay. Um, so, okay, I'll I'll save my

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questions >> and and we we do report on all six of these projects in the monthly report. >> Right. Right. As you might guess, that would concern whatever project that would concern property owners if if we're going to start building structures on their private property and to prevent flooding

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and things like that. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. >> All set with the update. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Greg. Great job. Keep that energy going. >> Last item on our agenda is to consider the Cadam Reps representatives to the Monterey Regional Agreement working

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group. Um I have a note here that there today for the community members there are four applicants. Um one is a current employee who lives in Chadam. I know there's um I think one of the charges we need one of the things we need to do tonight is to put a time limit on uh the

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expressions of interest. Um this group wants to get together pretty soon. So I think our our our time is is limited if you will to a week or so. I think >> I think a week is fine. I mean I've already seen some names floating out there. They've come through our, you know, our town website, our email

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address saying, "Hey, would I be considered?" So, I think we're we're going to get a couple candidates already. So, a week, I mean, next Thursday. I don't know. >> And then we should interview. We need to interview, >> right? >> All right. Um, so I would say a week. I mean, I think time is of the essence.

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>> Yeah, >> that's all right. >> I'm okay with that. >> Okay. Um to speak for themselves >> and then I just have to report that uh um I know the finance committee member is going to be Steve Daniel from from Chadam and then Peter Hughes from Har. I

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was told today that he's been named from from Harvard. So >> Oh, is Steven willing to do it? >> Yes, he is. Yeah. And I think we should appoint him tonight. And we also need to appoint a representative from the select board who I think should be you, Mr. Chair. >> Yeah. Well, you should probably have a motion then or have motions.

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>> Mr. Chair, I I move to appoint you as the select board for representative um to this group and Steven Daniel, chair of the finance committee as the finance committee member. >> Second. >> Okay. Discussion. Call the role. Mr. Smith >> I.

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>> Mr. Niccastro. >> I. >> Miss Potass. Hi. >> Mr. Meadows. >> Hi. >> And I abstain. I'll vote for Mr. Daniel. Um and then uh let's uh have consensus on a week. We'll have interviews after the week uh to keep the community uh

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members uh put them out there for community members membership for interest. >> Yeah. Go ahead. >> Cory, I was just going to say and then have the school committee kind of keep us up with um the student representatives to see how that process is going. >> Yeah. And I'll be talking to Brad and and Steve Dval and others. Randy, you

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had a comment. >> Um I was just wondering, are we going to be able to interview the citizens um on the 31st or the next meeting? the I had booked um there's one person not related to this prior to this coming about. I

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can move that individual and extend the time to start at 4:30 if the select board would like because we do like I said have the four initially and I'm sure after this meeting there'll be a couple more that come in. >> Okay, good. So, we should do that.

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>> Okay, final motion of the evening. >> Motion to adjurnn. >> Second. >> All the roll. Mr. Smith. >> Hi, >> Mr. Mccastro. >> Hi, Mach. Hi, >> Mr. Meadows. Hi. >> And the chair says I. Thank you very much. Good night, Chadam. >> Thank you.