e e we are at 7 o'clock good evening it's Tuesday February 11th 2025 I'm calling this meeting of the Conservation Commission to order my name is Carl Bishop I'm the chair of the commission we will be following the
published and posted agenda the meeting is both in person and through Zoom we will uh the in the case of the zoom not working properly we will continue the meeting in person this meeting is also being broadcast and recorded by cheler Tel media and will be available on their
website and on YouTube we do have a quorum here uh Mr Gahan is going to join us via Zoom he said he might be a couple minutes late but um so we but we have a quorum with or without him so do we have any public input concerns
relating to issues within the jurisdiction of the commission uh that are not currently the subject of a pending uh public hearing or elsewhere on our agenda nobody on the zoom David I presume
okay we will start now with a report of the planning board liaison hello Chris good evening good evening um we have not had a meeting since your last Conservation Commission meeting uh but we do have one
this week uh back in sync with the uh the two uh boards um tomorrow we're going to be finalizing the zoning articles uh for a public hearing meeting uh on the 26th of February we'll be
covering flood plane um lighting bylaw changes and uh other potential small zoning changes as well as addressing two uh potential zoning articles that the town manager put onto the draft warrants
so we'll be discussing those with the town manager tomorrow um the for palot um hearing has been continued um we already know about that one and then we are uh probably
going to be closing out uh 65 Dunstable special permit uh public hearing voting on that okay any any comments or questions so payad not going to come to your meetings no they're I believe they're waiting for
some uh final other information could be the same thing they're waiting for for pills continued here too yeah yeah I know but so we're going to have to continue ours at the next meeting how was that going to so I think ours is going to be continued
till um maybe the 26th but we've got a pretty full agenda so um I'm guessing it probably will be the 26th okay okay thanks yep thanks okay um and just to be clear the
um two of our three regulatory hearings uh I'm sorry two four three of our two of our four uh are are going to be continued one is the 10 hildr and the other one is the four palot drive both of those are requested to be continued
so um so we will start off with uh 61 Smith Street we did open that uh this hearing at the last meeting so we don't need to read the notice um so we can start with Moren uh from Norse environmental make her description of
the project thank you everyone on behalf of the applicant so these are clearly this is a new submission um but I can go through the project with the commission um
so had an interesting turn of advents but let's start with what the original notice of intent filing for so I filed the notice of intent for an after Thea Foundation excavation single family addition rebuild the existing deck
rooftop infiltration patch the driveway pavement associate grading and utilities within the 100ft buff Zone and 200t Riverfront area so the plans that I handed out to you folks go through them
real quick I colored them up they're fulls siize plans for the commission so they're a little bit easier on your eyes Okay um the green a series is the BBW
lagging the B series beyond that in a beige color that is um the bank of the perenial stream uh I have the 25t no disturb highlighted in yellow the 30 foot no impervious in I guess a pink color the
100 foot inner riparian is in a purple um the 100 foot buffone is in a yellow and the 200 foot Riverfront area is in a pink color so as you can see practically the entire lot is within the 200t riverfront area that we
have um prior to this res submitt I checked the D comments and DP had provided some comments basically stating that the degraded areas that are shown on the
plan weren't degraded prior to August 7th of 1996 um the commission should determine what has been permitted on site what hasn't dependent on that the commission should make the applicant determine what
could be permitted in accordance to 10.5 84 if a Redevelopment is not applicable um I reviewed the aerial photographs which is also in the um submitt I just passed out to you
um let's see back in let me grab rabbit um let's see in O uh 2020 um the lot had an existing single
family house driveway and deck in October of 2021 the asphalt extended Beyond or behind this single family dwelling and it shows some pavers in front of the dwelling I have an area
from 2023 that shows the extension of the pavers uh further in front of the dwelling as well as along the side of the dwelling um I spoke to my client and
this apparently was not permitted I didn't research the Aerials of the property prior to filing with the commission um but given the fact that these were not permitted and we are within the river front area we need to
resolve this issue so I'm requesting the commission as part of this um smittle I'd like to amend the notice of intent filing to remove the pavement behind the dwelling that was never permitted that's
within the inner riparian Zone and I just can't make it work with the project because the riverfront area it's a number gape you do any work within the inner riparian you have to provide 2:1 mitigation and we just don't have that
area on the lot to keep the pavement um we're proposing to remove portion of the pavers in front of the dwelling as well and return these areas to lawn so the aerial photographs that you have does show these areas
originally as lawn we'd like to put the lawn back um we are requesting to incorporate a 10t by 23 foot patio behind the house um the house has a sliding glass door there
so they would like a patio there so they can put a grill out or sit out there or just use it um to mitigate for the riverfront we are proposing 800 square ft of Riverfront mitigation
plantings um that's located behind the house there's a low spot that we can we're proposing five Native Native shrubs in that area and uh we're just going to let it naturalize and come back so I know I threw a lot at
you um I can open it up to the commission with any questions or concerns David why don't you start with um your comments and your what you've seen you've been out to the site I yes sure um so it's it's a little bit hard
to see Moren on the plans exactly what's being proposed to be restored uh C certainly the the shrubs that's clear but in terms of the pavement that's being proposed I can show it on the on the board I probably should have CED it
up um so we're proposing to remove these pavers to the right of the driveway or the east of the driveway there's another section of pavers to the east of the driveway we're proposing to remove the entire pavement behind the house
except for that 10 by 23t long um area that we'd like to keep in perious so that they can use we're also proposing to remove the pavers along the Westerly side of the dwelling that extends up to about the the front step
area so it's it has that hash mark shown on the plan does that make sense yes yes thank you that's that's much clearer so I I I guess I would ask that the plans be modified to to you know show that up a
little better or present that a little bit better okay just um just be a matter of doing some kind of shading or something or more some kind of color coding um with with um with with with the total amount the total square
footage that you mentioned I don't know if that's not there already I don't think I saw that so at the on the table right above the stamp it says total proposed mitigation of the
riverfront area so within the 100t buffer uh 182 Square ft is proposed to be removed and that's essentially the asphalt that's behind the dwelling right now and then the 200t we have another 29
square ft so the total impervious area that would' like to remove is 3811 Square ft but but where where are you looking at that again sorry I got no that's okay you see um I'll show oh I see I see it it it is kind of callor
coded David a you look at the it's right here it's that last right above this 59a GIS location okay thank you yeah I got it um so that that that I think is the
most important issue um I uh I I I think that that's something that's being uh what's being proposed is reasonable I think it I think it will satisfy the regulations although you did submit that to D we probably should wait and see they have any response right so I just
submitted to D today as well I don't know if you saw a TI's reply so he did receive it um he he may not provide any addition comments you know that's certainly possible right so we probably should continue it you know to wait and
see you know about that um another another question I had and which and we and we we we discussed this at the site visit as well is how how is the drainage uh from the roof of the proposed addition being handled okay so we are
proposing a infiltration trench um around the dwelling so a one foot wide one foot deep infiltration trench um right now that area has been excavated just so that the commission is
aware um I don't believe my clients knew at the time that a filing was necessary to come in front of the commission um but you know there's no runoff there's no sedimentation it's it's stabilized because it's surrounded
by pavement but and and and I've been out there and and Morin is correct um yeah there is there is a big hole there but uh you know nothing that was taken out of it was uh is is is eroding or there there
are no problems like that um so I think is erosion control shown on the plan yes the erosion controls are in orange on the plan and they essentially go around the the perimeter of the
property um and around the block walls in front of the block walls so um and and I uh I know we talked about this at the site visit as well I'm not sure how we left it though
is the is the shed going to remain there I think when we spoke about the shed I got the impression you thought it would be okay but of course that's the commission's call so um at this point we're proposing to leave
it if the commission feels differently we can certainly relocate yeah I my personal opinion is it's it's not crucial it's 5 by 10 foot yes yeah I I don't I don't think it's crucial to the restoration so I don't I don't have a
problem with it staying um that's pretty much all I had okay this thank you David Peter you want to start us off any questions um um yeah I'm just curious where the water going down the relatively steep
driveway ends up so we're proposing a trench drain in front of the addition so the addition is a garage underneath with space above um you're right it is a good steep driveway down so obviously that's
going to run down the driveway then we were going to have it connect to the infiltration trench along the side and the back yeah I guess I'll leave my conservation hat on I'm just kind of trying to picture the engineering part of the water in the garage but um I guess
that's not really Our concern David unless we the water the water in the garage well I guess my question wasn't water going into the garage when in the winter when everything's frozen but more like where's the water going to go when the infiltration Trench is not
infiltrating like in Winter you mean when it's when it's frozen yeah like like you know like it rains Saturday on top of a foot of snow isn't it all going to discharge to the wetlands off to the right on the drawing you're looking at well it'll yeah it'll it'll definitely
flow downhill um we're proposing to restore that area as lawn so again that might be snow or ice covered but we are proposing lawn area so that'll slow the rate a runoff and provide some
infiltration as well I mean it it should basically sheet flow uh o over the restored area so it should it should not erode and the garage Edition is more than 50 feet from the Wetland I guess I
guess that's the right answer right that it's 50 fet away it's more than 50 ft yeah okay that's all the questions I have thank you thanks p Mark the the papers on the uh what side of the property is that on the easterly
side there are those are all coming out yes and there's I know there's a stone block wall there is that something that's going to have to come down or is that going to we are proposing to leave the block wall I don't know when the block wall
was constructed um this house was constructed in 1985 I believe I I provided the property card it's on the second page um we're proposing to leave it at this
point around the whole property cuz it goes right up in in front of the house okay right uh my guess it was incorporated when it was built because no it's about 2 and a half years old I live right down
the street oh no kidding so they just put that in as well couple couple years ago yeah during the summer two years ago okay uh that'd be great to get all this stuff taken out of there and uh the the addition
that's excavated for now was it is it done or was it it just everything fell back into the hole again it's been like that for a couple years so there's a see where it say pile of fill yeah there's a stockpile area located there and there's there's just a hole on the ground at
this point okay um they had to go to zoning board of appeals as well and they went and they did receive relief from the zba and received an approval I set back I'm assuming so yeah it was um last
fall okay uh I'm I have a little bit of concern that Peter has there too because it's a pinch point there that's going to put water on the adjacent property I think everything is going to pitch away from
the foundation I don't want that to be the case but we have a block wall on the easterly side right we're going to take those pavers out we're going to have lawn there and then the way the property line it takes a shop East
turn so you know the it just extends their property extends along that area yep like see the yeah yeah I mean I'm certainly open to suggestions or or revisions if you know um that might be a
better idea than what I came up with so maybe maybe you could just double check um with the with the engineer um that uh that if where that where that water would be channeled um yeah I don't I don't think it's going to go on to the
adjacent property because of the block wall but but I think there might be a concern that you know in a heavy rainstorm it it might it might erode um and maybe there's some sort of well I say R rip wrap or something that block
wall is only a dry wall set on the ground it's not mored or anything it's just stack 8 in solids okay so so you think water could get through it sure and and it's uh let that go uh I don't know like
i' like to see something to catch the water ctech or something like that okay the water gets on the ground it doesn't Rogue cuz everything does go further a grade down so take the trench drain and run that into a cultech or we talking
you want the rooftop infiltration in a cultech I like the rooftop because it's such a a fragile area there because everything it's it's still from from the structure it drops but one yeah you know down it
drops at least 8 ft I'm guessing 28 ft to the BBW there it does but there's also a burm so it so it comes off the side of the house and it drops down and kind of comes up there's a burn between the BBW and that
that drop off when you when you replicate the backyard to Grass you're going to keep that burm oh yeah we're not touching that burm okay so so so that that might make it a little tough to put put in a subsurface infiltrator
you know that that burm there because it is it is it is it is does extend so so much higher above the the slope that that okay those are just my concerns that's okay good thanks Mark bill yeah um I
agree with Mark just some if we treat that corner that with the because the driveway the water from the driveway is coming down there too right oh yeah I think it does it pitch to the right or left you know you know I don't know because see that pile of Phil yeah and
then there's a hole in the ground okay and I haven't been out there during the rainstorm to to take a real good look at so when it does rain once it's finished in the driveways there the water's going to shoot down from Smith Street from the top of the driveway it's going to go down right to that corner so I think we
just need to look at that corner other than that I like the plan I'm happy with the rest of it but I think that I don't I don't want to see water going on the other guy's property at all so or eroding that hill in the back so if you can look at that that'd be the only
thing okay give it that's you making the noise oh sorry you're drowning me out drowning myself out with you set set bill yeah yeah John yeah I agree with
Bill and mock the only thing is maybe uh make the Stone in infiltration 2 feet okay that works get it into the ground so 2 feet wide 2 feet deep yeah I mean the more Stone and two feet out yeah
you're going to get that water into the ground okay uh that's no big deal I think that's a way to help it you got the brim in the back yeah the land does come up in the back so the water's not going to go over the back right but like Mark said the people to
the right you don't want to have water going on to their land okay you know and I do agree with that but make the stone area bigger okay that's that's my opinion okay so I heard um we're David we're
waiting for D yeah see yes see if they have any response and then the plans do have to be revised Carl this Chris I'm out here on the hey Chris y sorry hello Chris yeah go ahead Chris you have questions I'm good I just want to make sure you know I was out here all
right thank you Chris all right so um so so and then and then the plans have to be revised to show what's what's being done with the with the payment in the back of the house um and then and then um whatever whatever
revisions are made for the drainage to to address the the the concerns that we just spoken about okay yeah so if we hear the comments from from DP and if we see those changes we'll see it at the next meeting
or so a future meeting so if if you can get me the revised Plans by the end of the day on the Wednesday before the next meeting then we might be able from tomorrow okay th today's Tuesday
okay I think I can get it to you so in theory then we might be able to close the hearing on the 25th yes do you anticipate any special conditions I don't think there's anything um I think I think probably
just s some sort of um monitoring and Reporting plan on the progress of the restoration I think that's what would be done in this particular situation okay all right I'll take a motion to uh continue the meeting to our
let's say to our next meeting which would be the 25th is that right 25th of February Move Motion from Bill second from John all in favor I Chris Chris said I yeah it should be a
roll call vote John all in favor John I bill I I Mark I Peter I Peter I and Chris I heard I already I all right thank you and I said I can I just give you can I just ask a followup sure when you're doing the uh work in the backyard
there there's already a whole hole there's no other way around the back of that structure there so you're going to have to fill that into somewhat I I don't know what's back to Pavement you mean asphalt Pavements back in now asphalt yep you got to get a machine back to dig that all up oh yeah
it's a good amount of pavement so you going have to fill it the the uh existing hole up to get a machine back here on a dump truck to get that stuff out of there right so I would think so yeah I mean they could go around
I mean I don't know how big of a machine they don't want to damage the pavers we'd like to leave but if the machine can go over the existing pavers in front of the house and go around the side maybe they can do that west west side yeah the West Side well well you should definitely speak with a contractor on
that because I think it's within the realm of possibility that that pavement and back should be removed first or we'll have to be removed first okay before before the the addition is built I mean that shouldn't take very long uh to do that um and then and then you
know the actual replanting can be done at a later time but but I think that's a good good point it might be hard with once the addition is in it might be hard to get back there with a large enough machine fig right to get and I think the
timing might work out I was thinking in my head if if we close at the end of February they can't start work till the middle of March maybe the snow will be gone and if then Lu the ground's frozen and then but no snow but right wouldn't we
want to see a little remediation then before we see any work done construction well the problem is I can't plant and March no but just taking it Taking the pavers out of there grading it to some like a subgrade at least we
know it's being repaired and you can start your your site work at that point yeah I think that's reasonable I think that's reasonable I mean I just like to do that when we can get the grass growing so like you know what I mean if if we can start work in March it doesn't
make any sense to do any of that until the growing season starts just a thought okay I I'm just thinking Logistics yeah you got to bring loan back there to put grass or whatever you want to grow back there again you're
going to need a small Dozer you're not going to do that with a back ho bar cat oh Bobcat yeah they go there we closed the hearing so yeah all right yeah I'm sorry oh yeah well no we didn't close it we continued it I I'm
sorry we close we continued the hearing but but that can be discussed next time yeah I know but um so I I think she can give it some thought though uh to to to the sequence of events and maybe we talk about that at the next uh at the next meeting uh why don't you just stay right
where you are thank you our next uh our next uh our next agenda item is the RDA continued from December is that right you talk about this at our in January that might might not we I don't think we
did no okay so we are here for uh 35 brick kill Ro Brick killan Road and um we now have plans today which we got so if you want to just talk through that but sure so just one quick Chris Chris
can you see what's on the screen I'm I yes okay yes I've got the screen up there thank you okay sure okay so I'm here tonight with Katherine Ros um I met David out on site to take a
look at um the violations and the clearing and the rdas um that was filed uh we performed a site visit in January um David had highlighted that there was a pile of fill that was placed
between Wetland flag 6A and 7A um the homeowner has since removed that pile of fill David had asked me to take a look at that area to see if in fact yes all the fill has been removed and the good news it has um I found natural top soil
there so I'm comfortable with that um in addition um it was requested that I count the number of tree stumps on the property so I counted eight tree stumps within the 100ft buffone um I'm proposing to replace
those eight trees with 2 and 1/2 in caliber native trees uh we're proposing to plant these trees within the 25 foot no disturbance Zone I provide a a list of native trees um that I think will grow well there a lot of them are
already there I'm proposing three different species 2 and 1/2 in calipers um I like to give the homeowners and the clients a little bit of wiggle room rather than saying three white pine three red maple three Red Oak
and then they can't find the plants and then it becomes a problem um the 25t no disturbance Zone shall be planted um also proposing one tree within that area of fill that was placed cuz it was a little bare I thought would
great to go in there we're also proposing a post and reil fence along the 25 ft so that there will be no confusion in the future we'll know exactly where it is um in addition we're proposing to
maintain um the 25 to the 100 foot as lawn area it looks like some of that lawn area has already been established probably last fall or last spring I'm not sure um we'd like to keep that area as lawn if if it is allowed in addition
we are proposing to extend the retaining wall um you can see in the photographs that I took that a retaining wall was started to be constructed and it's basically a a burm area and a drop off and the homeowner
would like to extend that retaining wall and finish it if possible um I can open it up to the commission with any questions or concerns all right why don't we start down this end with John but David do you have anything more to add
um no not at the moment I think something I'll let you know John some questions uh Dave you were all right with the retaining wall uh yes um it it's it's actually more like 80 feet
from White lands so uh I don't I don't I don't see I I think it actually you can see that that's that slope there um I you know I I have concerns about its stability um and and actually not it
does it doesn't stay in the buffer zone it's the whole its whole length it um where's here's here's the plan so um yeah I think it it I think it's okay where it's being proposed well I I think it's good I think
we from where we started I think we got to put put this to bed right now and that's how I feel about it that that does that that does remind me I did have a question so so is there going to be any sort of a Stairway or pathway you
know through the retaining wall maybe maybe over on the right here because other otherwise not going to be able to get down to this part of the proper that's a really good point yeah I think we should put some sort of Stairway and so that there is some
access so that they're able to use it I mean I can I could show it on the plan if the commission would like I don't know where it going to go at this point but you could say it it'll be somewhere in here yeah I would just it looks like there's there's there's really no good
reason to put it in the buffer zone so you could just put it somewhere along here between the buffer zone and the property line okay I think it probably makes sense you know I know the property pretty well at this point it probably makes sense to put it over close closer to the property sure that's not a
problem okay you all said John I'm good okay Y how many trees are you going to plant the two and a half eight trees eight trees so eight for eight yes okay um I brought this up last time but how
come there's no stamps stamp on the plan the plot plans so the copy that I was given didn't have a stamp on it but my understanding is David has a stamped plan yes is that correct well I I have a stamped base plan yes showing showing
the wetlands and you know the property line and the um you know the existing structures right so so I I marked up this plan to try and save the homeowner some money um obviously if the
commission doesn't find it that it works we can have the engineer draw this on the plan that's not a problem um but the Hope was to try and save some money and put this to bed I I I think if you my personal opinion is if if you redw this
plan on the stamped plan which which I can email you thank you or or you could even call hushy and get it I think that would be okay I can do that yeah I just think we should have a stamp plot plan sure as opposed to just because just F
everybody else is doing trying to be cons be consistent but other than that the plan's fine as far as I'm concerned that's not a problem that's easy Mark I have no problem with this it's uh it's fine here um Moren can you point out the
stumps that you sent a number of photos on I guess you've been out there David so you guys can help me okay where were they relative to the proposed trees on the plane so they weren't all within the 25
foot okay so they were within the 100 foot buff Zone the 100 foot buff Zone was actually staked out in the field so I had an idea of how far it extended than you um so so I I think if do do you
see these yellow stakes I think that's the 25 and that's the 50 Foot wonderful I think wonderful that's my recollection so that's those three sure but on this where does that fall on this map is it in in the 50ft
buffer the stumps I I think those stumps are between the 25 and 50 I'm sorry 25 and 50 so they're kind of in this okay yes yes all right so my question for the commission Moren as much as it is for
you I think we're here because trees were cut down that shouldn't have been and I think we're here because we issued an enfor ment order to restore the
wetlands that were damaged so my logic is we should restore the wetlands that were damaged not put a lawn in where the Wetland was damaged and put the trees somewhere else we should restore the
Wetland you know within our RS or I need your help David to what it looked like before the trees were cut down which kind of means no lawn or a smaller lawn so that's I don't think we need to debate that that's I just feel strongly
about that and a second part of that is if in fact we issued an enforcement order to restore the Wetland we ought to restore the Wetland and I'm sure there was stuff growing in that Wetland besides uh these
trees and then I do have one more request of you Marine cuz I know you you know this um I have no idea what was growing there before and I don't know if that's white pines or some of the other species that you mentioned so my request would be
plant a tree that fits that ecosystem like what was there before right or or your best judgment you know is that a pine tree you know pine trees normally grow there or is it something else and I would totally defer to your
judgment because I don't know the answer to that so short story I think we should do what our enforcement order said which is restore the Wetland so I I don't know if we want to debate that Carl we can move on if you let's get Chris in before we let Moren
respond Chris do you have any uh questions um I I would like to hear moren's response to um Peter's questions please okay all right okay so um the Wetland itself my understanding was
there was a pile of fill in the BBW between Wetland flag 5A and 6A the homeowner removed that fill I verified that by auguring and looking at the top looking at the soils I found natural top soil that fill is gone as part of a
restoration I have a tree there it's kind of an open area you can see um so we are proposing to put a tree in that location the trees are your typical New England forested trees White Pine Oaks Maple that's what I generated my list
off of that I find that I think would be appropriate and grow well in that location when you talk Wetland it seems that you're speaking of the Wetland resource area itself and the 100 foot buffone or some portion of the
100 foot yes so so let me separate the two the Wetland itself in my opinion will be restored since the fill is gone and we'll put a tree in there I didn't see any other damage to the Wetland meaning I didn't see any stumps in there
I didn't see any other fill I didn't see trash I didn't see tires I didn't see any of that the Wetland will be restored we're proposing the trees along the 25t for two reasons they'll act as a permanent demarcation as well as improving the
shading in the Wetland as well as providing a post and rail fence if the homeowners came to the commission and requested to cut the trees I think that would have been permittable with the commission because they would have
maintained the 25 foot um and they would have been allowed to return it to lawn um if a filing was filed they made a mistake and they're here and they're trying to fix it so maybe the question for the
commission is are we allowing lawns in our 50 and 100 foot buffer of course we have my opinion then I fail to understand how this plan even with notwithstanding that I don't understand
technically how this plan meets our enforcement order which is restore the site to where it was basically I don't remember the words David but I thought our order was restore the site to the condition it was in before all this work
was done do we have the wording of the enforcement David um that's okay if you don't remember so I mean I mean I may you know I defer to I haven't been out there so I mean I may have it wrong uh but I
thought the whole point was there was work done in the Wetland and the buffer and our order was to restore it to its original condition irrespective of whether we allow Lawns or not it wasn't lawn before why would we allow it to be lawn now well well but I I do I do
remember that that the enforcement order also said to um to file an RDA for approval to create the lawn up to the 25 foot no disturb setback you know you can think about
whether or then it makes sense to to say well well restore the buffer zone but but file an RDA to um for approval of creation of the lawn uh I I I think I think in this part I think in this
particular case and that I think the commission would would have allowed it commission I think this was before your time Peter the commission allowed a very similar sort of uh creation of lawn up on uh love it love it Lane I think it was love it um yeah and and and and and
the other thing I will say here as well is that this this is not a particularly sensitive wetland in the sense that not a Vernal pool not rare species habitat and and and I think the commission has the authority
to take those sorts of things into account where where I where I I don't I don't I think putting the law up to the 25 foot no disturb which is in the the Bon regulations after all I I think in this kind of a situation it's something
the commission can allow so well we can talk about this another time it that everything you described doesn't make any sense to me if we're trying to enforce and protect
buffers why aren't we enforcing and protecting buffers and I understand there may be a precedent and maybe that's really you know the the origin of my question not so much this one project um I I guess my response to to that would be then I think you need to take
you need to change the regulations to say that you got to protect more of the buffer zone right well that's where I'm going for for instance in my hometown of boxboro you can't go any closer than 75 ft to the Wetland with and that's what I'm saying I mean this may not be the
project to change our historic interpretation of that um but it's still doesn't make sense to me if if if the residents came to us with a complaint that the wetlands and the buffers were damaged and trees were cut down why wouldn't we require the
trees that were cut down to be replaced where they were and I do understand I understand the arguments um but it just doesn't make sense to me if we're really trying to protect the wetlands so why don't we just leave it at that and not not keep talking about it uh at at this
uh for well I I think I think you should strongly consider revising the regulations well that's that's what I'm learning here yeah okay so Chris now back to you sure so yeah I'm I'm okay with the plan and I'm okay with the fact
that it's respect in the 25t disturb zone so I'm good this way okay so where we're at now is there's some changes to be made uh yeah put on a stamped plot plan okay and the stairs you want to Mark
where the stairs go um are there any other conditions that we're looking at um well I assuming assuming that the the commission agrees this can be a negative determination with conditions um I would I I mean the
first one that occurs to me I maybe think think of some more is again similar to the previous filing have a have a monitoring and um reporting plan you know to make sure that the trees that are planted survive
um you know and i' like to think about putting something in there maybe about invasives as well I guess my my concern one of my concerns is you know letting this come back naturally which is which I I think is is okay I I'm just worried a little bit worried you might get more
invasives than natives maybe you can think of a way you know maybe without doing a full-blown invasive management plan unless that's not really expensive you know some some some way of addressing that concern I don't recall seeing a ton of invasives out there do
you no no I don't okay but you know but you're right it's something to keep an eye on watch The Fill you bring in for the seed or whatever or even the plants right that that's that's a tricky topic cuz I don't think anybody knows
how to keep the invasiv out I know without driving the homeowner nuts I make a motion to close the hearing so yeah I was going to say so you're okay with that you you kind of listed out the conditions yeah yeah yeah okay so then I'll take a motion to close the hearing
and I think I be continued pending getting the new plan would you have the conditions prepared at the next meeting so we can CL vote on and done sure we can't vote on it now the next meeting sorry can we vote on it now um yeah you could um you you you
know and we could we could get the new plan later what I what I would suggest is I think it would be better to close the hearing now and then and then wait you know until the next meeting to approve the conditions you know that's something that's you can do you can do that okay if if that's if that's what
you want to do does it matter to to the homeowner or the project no because we can't plant until the growing SE let's just continue it until the next meeting then if it's the same difference yeah I think so I guess Noone is going to take on any more life what's that yeah it shouldn't it shouldn't
though no I think you've been quite clear about what you want fill up a schedule with something that could be voted on I think yeah but but he's got to do the conditions so so yeah we want I make a motion to close the hearing we already disc we have nobody approved
that yet second it all right so Mark made a motion to close the hearing well are we going to vote on this tonight no we're not going to vote on not going to vote on the conditions right you can you can you can wait to vote to issue it till the next meeting you can close the hearing tonight and wait to vote to
issue it you know whatever decision you make until the next meeting if that's why can't we do it tonight I just we everything goes on and on and on forever yeah you could you know as long as you trust you know the conditions the conditions we're trusting that he gets all the conditions right simp and it
just means your clock starts right right yeah so so you you you'll need to sign it at the very least you'll need to sign it at the next meeting but that's fine okay all right that's okay we got to close it first right so I heard a motion to close it second second from Bill all
in favor to close I I oh we have to we have to John I I bill Mark Chris I John uh Chris I and I okay the meeting's closed so I'll take a motion
for a negative3 determination with conditions Move Motion from bill with the with the conditions as discussed right yep okay and second by John all in favor John I I
Mark Peter I Chris I and I'm an i okay so so we still need a plan yes I will get you I'm trapped in the office with the snow I will get you the plan thank you okay okay thank you thank you I will take a motion to continue the
hearing for 10 hildr uh to the next meeting February 25th move Mo motion from Bill second do I have a second to continue John second second from John okay I'm
not going to be here that's okay that's all right you can still continue to then okay I want to wrap some stuff up all in favor John I okay I bill I Mark I
Peter I I Chris I I and I'm and I it's frustrating that we're continuing one more time on that one and I will take a motion to continue for payot drive to February 25th motion from Bill
second from John all in favor John hi Bill hi Mark Peter hi Chris I and I'm an i okay I don't think we have to do that anymore tonight I don't think oh maybe we do maybe we do all right next thing
on our agenda uh let's see where are we discussion followup to Mr St John's concerns with possibly illicit sheds and storage containers around town so if you remember Mr St John is the property owner from the Littleton what did we
call that zero Littleton Road or something like that um out on Beaver Brook right on the edge of Beaver Brook um and he provided us with a list of properties of which um I would say we are in receipt of the information we are looking at it however a quick look at
some of the data I'm seeing uh is not in jurisdictional so I have up on the screen the email you sent me Carl yeah so that's just kind of a a quick Google Earth and GIS look um and you know it's not official or anything like that but
um I just did a a quick look at that there are a couple that um I think we should take a look at for sure uh but some of them I don't see Wetland anywhere near um anywhere near the um near that so we we will look into this
so we'll keep this on our list and we appreciate getting notice of uh possible violations in town um anything else yeah yeah right you know my feeling on
this well if somebody's violating we should be going we should be taking care of it so somebody's right I got to drop my apologies sorry you got to drop okay okay Chris thanks bye so we uh I'm just
going to add that we also have the Mac uh annual environmental conference coming up on Saturday March 1st at Holy Cross in Worcester there's about 30 workshops scheduled um I don't see any mention of hybrid workshops via Zoom um from what I looked on it used to be they
did that for a while um so it might be just in person I'm hoping to go but I have a lot of things going on and I can't commit to it I don't think you're going Peter right you said I do have a quick question we can take it offline I've asked Mac I can't go but the
workshops are directly on point with everything we talk about here so I would like the slides and I have asked if we can get the slides at like a reduced rate but if somebody is already planning on going you know so I don't know D I if I can spend a hundred bucks of town
money and not go just so I get the slides I mean I don't know I'll talk let let me look at maybe I'll do it because if if I do go then I'll get the slides if I that's what I'm getting at so I'm trying to negotiate some bargain price there a lot of good information that
comes out of there yeah okay all right so that's just an FYI so um 5961 Carlile street so we are going to talk about the proposal from LEC so David you want to talk about what would be in that what's in that proposal uh
well that's that's for a follow-up uh study uh to the initial work that was done which which focused uh primarily on uh possible or potential erosion of the
the side slope to the driveway uh into the wetlands well and also establishing that it was uh actually is a wetland out there uh but as as you recall the um the neighbors attorney was here at the last meeting and presented uh evidence that
the substantial tree clearing or vegetation clearing on the property so so LEC uh was asked to provide a proposal for uh a followup you know phase two study you know uh analyzing um
that that aspect you know the the the vegetation clearing you know primarily um you know trees and you know shrubs and so that's what this proposal is is to do that uh analysis um based
based primarily on uh you know a aerial photos you know historical aerial photos there there are there are no plans for any additional site visits at this point okay so questions
thoughts they had the aerial plans last time didn't they aerial photos LEC uh LEC did not did they have them I I had I had forwarded them the um before the meeting yes but but that that really not
sufficient to sort of quantify it they I'm told that they have access to certain sets of areals where they can pretty much count the number of trees at least of six Ines or more uh get get an actual number and I and I think that's
that wasn't Incorporated in the last correct they they they were they were not asked uh uh for the the first study um you know which which was the subject of the search warrant to to look at the vegetation clearing so it was pretty
much the erosion from the driveway that were looking at right which they concluded that that was not a serious not an issue right so and and that it was a wetland confirmed that it was it is a wetland that's right they they confirmed it was a wetland and Wetland
right it was a uh isolated vegetation yes so it's jurisdictional only under the bylaw not the state so you know I just I mean one of one one one one of one of the reasons um and and I and I'm not suggesting that
this should be a factor in the commission's decision but I mean this proposal is $14,000 commission's already paid almost 7800 for the first study so I mean this is these expenses are adding up yeah
yeah and I should say the the commission did did not pay for it and I don't think the plan is to have the commission pay for this one either but you know it's costing the town this amount of money I I don't think the the car should be
a sure you oh sorry I don't think the car should be a an issue if somebody did something wrong we're trying to prove it it should be I I still I don't see enough evidence that we're evidence they're going to gather is going to be enough to
get this thing done I I think it's what what does done mean I'm sorry what we're trying to do was trying to fin if if there was a Wetlands that was filled if trees were cut down you think we're going to get that
in concrete information to to have it re to have Mr jav go and replicate what what he destroyed hard to tell yeah hard to tell what's the end game I mean is there an end game yeah right yeah that's the
question I was asking I mean if the end game I let's just say it out loud if the end game is to replant the thing do we need these data to to make that decision and then we need if that's if we need the data then we need it well I can tell you what the what the uh administrative process
would be or should be is that yeah if if this study determines that there the vegetation was cleared without the commission's approval then you would issue an enforcement order to to require restoration of the Wetland Restorations
or enforcement orders can and are appealed they have 60 days to appeal to Superior Court and if if that's done you know then this then this becomes a litigation it becomes a court case and
one doesn't know where that would end up this could go on forever it it cost a lot of money right cost a lot of money potentially potentially it could go on for a while and you know but but but there's something you're not saying I don't want to put words in your mouth
but I think you're saying we would be in a stronger position upon appeal with the data oh absolutely the point you don't you don't you don't want to go into court you know with without you know some sort of um
you know evidence you know some sort of strong evidence you know by by a qualified consultant really um so would our goal to have them put trees back in there if it's if some point yeah yeah I mean that
I think that's sort of been the commission's policy that if you establish the fact that you know vegetation has been cleared in particular trees have been cut tonight tonight was an example just did it yeah right yeah administratively this would
be the exact same process except that this the one tonight was not appealed you know right right you can look at the photos that we saw at the last meeting and tell the trees were cut the trees are
missing I don't think it my opinion is just my humble opinion is a judge is not going to buy that kind of response in cour they want to see yeah we need they want they would want to see an opinion from an expert y you know through through a a careful
study I just see it spending a fortune chasing this it gets appealed push back all the way through so when you're building a house yeah when you're building a house and you're halfway done and the foundation
is crumbling do you say screw it I'm going to keep building or do you take a step back and get at the root cause of the problem and fix it once in for all right no I agree with you you know that's that's the way I look at this I see I I agree too I'm just and being
practical but there's another L of years and a lot of money so you got got to weigh that against right but I would encourage yeah I would encourage us all to think strategically and I don't like that that word so I'll say it differently I would
think us all to give some thought to what happens in the you know next month next year 5 years down the road if we don't take this stuff seriously I mean there is not there's almost nothing that's a more clear violation right of
the whole reason we're here than than you know chopping down stuff in the Wetland how come when they were out there last time they didn't look for stumps oh oh uh they they did they did and yeah they didn't they didn't see many if anything the problem was it
wasn't considered Wetlands by the person who cut the trees uh correct and that's correct it was pasture Upland pasture understandably yeah and it wasn't considered so you got to take all that into consideration too I think it's on
the map John it's not on the map no it's not on the map it's not on a map interesting no it's not on a map it's up it's that's Upland it's not unless you know like you know skunk cabbage or something it's like yeah cutting my
backyard yeah well and it's done every day well and even and even if it um I if if we knew it was a wetland you know the the bylaw says that you know historic Al lawn can be maintained you know and so that was a possibility it could have
been mowed as lawn and that would have been perfectly legal right but it when they cut them trees they walked in there and they just cut them and that's it wasn't a wetland
then to the people who cut them to the people who cut them with the trees on that's not why we're here land with the trees on the the people were here say there some of the trees were on their land they said there were 28 trees on their land that were cut right that's
not what we're talking about though but we're yeah well those all the let me let let let me address that cuz I don't think that that has been addressed so um the the the owner the owner of the property um that
um where the Wetland is located and and it's in an in an email a public email is alleging that the neighbor cut the trees um that that that owner said I did not do that that was the neighbor who did that on his
property um I I yes and I don't know if they knew where where the property line was I mean this is this is all kind of hearsay at this point and you know I I I where does it become a civil problem it is it is already clearly is between
neighbors and we're just getting pulled into the middle of it um exactly that's why I'm thinking not spending that kind of money to help we're spending money to for a civil complaint but I'm trying to make sure we're consistent with the
pre just one one hearing ago go right you know at at the end of the day um the the regulations say that ultimately it's the owner's responsibility um now again that might ultimately be a subject for the court to
make a determin determination on so um we don't have to decide tonight you don't have to um I don't only like to but I'm trying to understand do we have to or uh only thing I would point out though that
there is a statute of limitations oh on this yeah the F the first and and and I and I thought the statute of limitations period started once it was determined that it was a wetland but no Town
Council tells me that it's um it's it's when it's when you think there might have been a violation that's and and the first email I got was from the abutter two years yeah in July 26 202 three so so we have about four months five months
yeah so if the commission is going to issue an enforcement order it does have to be by J July 26 which means they have we have to vote on it they have to go execute the search we have to determine that you know right whatever they do
their their analysis and then we have to execute an an enforcement order so there's a sequence of things so I I don't right now there's time yeah it's not a huge Panic right now so if there's some trees that were cut on the
neighbor's land and some cut on the other person's land both are they both responsible for whatever was cut on I think I think potentially I think I think I I I would hope that that's something that this new study could verify um I've sent them I I requested
from the neighbors attorney uh survey plans which they provided me I think that should be enough information for the consultant to to determine you know definitively right on on which property or properties
so if there was so there could be two enforcement ERS for each owner right uh if they come back and with a plot plan that says okay 10 trees were cut just for picking a number 10 trees were cut on this Lot 10 were on this
lot would they both be responsible to re repair both yeah yeah just just just um yeah initially that's what I'm saying then it's a civil thing because this one's going to say that the other guy cut it on his land it gets and the court
the court may end up de that's true David does it make sense to have an executive session with Town Council on this I don't I don't know what more I could think of asking I mean I've been communicating pretty regularly with with Council on this um I mean if if if
that's what like to do throwing it out as a an option MH um cuz I'm really torn both ways I I I want to be consistent with brick Hill and Road you know and other you know and and all of that but
on the other hand the pragmatic side says you know it's a it's an isolated Wetland it's not a you know uh special habitat or anything like that um to to John's point I mean nobody would I would have done this we would
have done this if we weren't experts on Wetlands I mean it's just so I'm I'm I'm just really struggling and uh but I at the same time if we if we were to just let it go then you know it's the the others like brick killan could say
what about us I mean the distinctions there are distinctions to be clear there are distinctions but sometimes it's difficult to see them so and John thank you for reminding me it's not on any of the maps yeah that's that's that plus the
neighbor dispute thing is what makes this so hard right that's this is a difficult position that we're being en forced into in my opinion yeah it's a civil suit in my
opinion you know I keep going back to if if the homeowner if the prop property owner had come to us and said hey I screwed up I cut down these trees we would have you know I'm not even I'm not even convinced we would have said you
got to replant them now but I think I'm hearing you saying he didn't he's claiming he didn't cut them is that's another that that that part of that's a hold that's another AR so it's do you want to see trees on this lot trees on that lot this guy trees on the all lot I
mean this is very convoluted I would not want to vote unless I knew all those facts better I guess but we might not be able to get those facts without doing the study so in my opinion I think we pull a plug
on this one I don't like it but the more questions are asked the more issues come out yeah and also if you went back and looked at the past discussions um I recall
some comments that were made that sort of lended credibility to that idea that it's sort of a neighbor oh disagreement you know it's like it's not clear to me that's un that part's documented and that is docent
it's hard for us though to unravel you know like yeah whether that even matters I having a little problem with Mr Costa giving us more information than he needs but giving it to us on trees that were there before that I have
better photographs of these trees why why is he putting this stuff on us why doesn't he go after himself well he's claiming it's the wetlands and where art it's our Charters protect the wetlands what what does he care about that though there's something else we're
not knowing I believe right right and there's there's a problem with driveways and and water lines and we have nothing to do with we don't want anything about that I just think there's bad feeling between both of them and we're just getting dragged in on this
and and I think you actually raised something I've been thinking a lot about the last year is um hey if somebody cuts down trees in their backyard legally and you don't like what it does to your view your natural reaction is you don't like it and yeah I don't quite you know
that's not really what we're here for right that part of it I mean we're here for the Wetland part right yeah I don't feel I don't feel good about spending the money I don't either because I think it's a long haul for a very this is going to be a long ha
a very weak um demonstration of enforcing Wetlands you know it's especially if it's not on the plan that that not possible it's I mean you you you got to you certainly have every
right to make a cost versus benefit well it's it's it's not so much the money as the time invested and to what end in a in a resource area that's just
uh I I would love to fix it don't get me wrong but we got to pick battles and you got to fight a battle you know um and and if I could just throw another thought we don't need to discuss this
but look at what happened at the last hearing just a few minutes ago like our regulations don't always match what happens in real life yeah you know there's a lot of ways to say that but sometimes you
know I mean I could support what you're saying is you know we're not because we go through the study we're not still not going to be in a very strong position know there's another way of looking at this we all spend a lot of time and effort everybody and there's no clear answer right I think that's kind of what
what you were saying bill it's going to create more issues because if both parties have to fix what's on there then they're going to fight about it's it just opens up more more things it's without a clear we want to die on this mountain without a clear
answer I mean some of the previous hearings Carl where you know we actually had a consultant look at trees that were taken down I think it was kind of black and white you know the wetlands appear on the map it was you know but this isn't you know maybe our structure is just not set up to deal
with things that are hard to that don't have a clear answer you know this is certainly it's fair to say this is certainly a very unusual case where there was absolutely no indication it was Wetlands you know from any existing GIS data PRI prior to uh this you know
all starting and me getting an email from the neighbors that's certainly certainly fair fair to say that is highly unusual so so do you feel do you feel you can take a vote tonight even if it's a no I do I think so I'm I'm coming around I'll take a motion to I wish
Chris was here I I miss Chris right now I'd like to hear Chris's uh Chris's thoughts he's he's got good you you you could wait you know till the next meeting well then John won't be here I won't be here but you know my thoughts yeah we we could keep on record I mean
you know it's not a bad thing to kick it one more meeting Chris whatever way Chris grow is it going to matter well I mean because I just hate to keep on and on every meeting we every meeting on and on and on it's time to
move on let's go let's make a motion and do things that we suppos make a motion that we dispose of uh what is a good name of that property we declin to we declin to spend the money on the LEC proposal for 5961 I
think that would be the motion yeah or you could you could even make it a little bit more General say you decline to take any further action at this time on this matter time I think that's a really good wording because we may change our mind in it's good two weeks for new information I think that's
good motion does that make sense Mark if if we don't take motion now we put it as worded the way you worded it and the two years goes up we two years is up in June yeah then then then then
then then you don't have a choice right that's right okay yeah all right yeah I'm fine I'm fine with that so that motion is from Mark you get the wording well you did better than I did I didn't know what the wording was David said it but but it came out of Mark's MTH we
declined to take action Mark the motion money on the LA proposal and no further action will be taken at this time on this matter wow yeah thank that's even better motion from Mark second second from Bill uh no Chris so all in favor I you
want to do the names again Chris is off he dropped Chris is off he dropped so all in favor I everybody yeah unanimous okay um that's a tough discussion um I hope we made the right decision but I guess there's no right and wrong in in
the world so um we'll see there's going to be other battles scy I know I know just if you if you go by just a book what it says none of us would be here they wouldn't need us yep to interpret it the way we
think we should that's right David update on Freeman Lake parcel boundary surveys so um there there is something to update uh let me let me first let me let me bring up this map so so um these These are the three Parcels um that the
surveyors were asked to look at um and so I met with the surveyor um last Friday uh and they have they have uh plans uh
prepared so um so this is this is um if you recognize this one this this is the the Willis Drive parcel um it's uh let me let me just go back to the other one sixth street on
there yeah so see the way I'm circling here yeah so that's this parcel right here um that they they so this is it's sort of turned um I I guess n n 90 de uh
counterclockwise uh or maybe clockwise so this is the street is at the top the Lakes at the bottom yeah let me let me let me zoom out a little bit on this one um if if you see this so you can see that there are some encroachments
on this one you know couple of canoes um a boat um this is uh whoops that's not what I wanted to do
um the zoom is sort of interfering um yeah where's your button David did they stake these um no that's that's that's the next that's the next thing to
decide um is is is the monumentation I I think that's that's the next step is to to uh put some monumentation on site I think I think it should be a permanent monumentation um and and I think in
particular I think it should be granite markers because those are much more permanent they go they go three they go three feet into the ground right um and they're much much harder to revie to remove the iron pins are pretty easy to remove so I think I think those should
those should be uh installed then I think that once that's done then then I think you know the commission needs to make a decision because then then then then you'll know you'll be able to prove that um there are encroachments and I think the commission needs make a decision how you want to handle that do
you do you want to just hire someone to go in and just you know remove all of the stuff or ask tbw to do it or would you know would you want to put a sign out there saying you know warning all private property will be removed within
two weeks or in two weeks uh from from this parcel so maybe maybe give people the opportunity to take their stuff off um not saying that's what you should do or have to do but that's one one possibility uh and then and then I think
the next step after that you know any any sort of stuff that's removed from these Parcels you have to make a decision how how do you want to manage these properties do you want to do you want to um just you know let them grow back you know without without
maintaining them any way um but again that's that's the decision for um you know down the road could could you be a little more specific on the enro MS on the three different properties is it is it without getting into details it basically couple
of canoes and kayaks on a boat and a couple of barrels well more let me go let me go to the next one so one of the properties didn't have any it's all Wetland right oh yeah right that that that was this one yeah um that got that
there there not there are no encroach so no random docks or anything right the one the one one that's the the one that you were looking at first that had that that's the one that bill and I have been out there and there is a dock there and it didn't show up on the plot when I looked at it with you the other day
David on I guess that was yesterday might have been pulled out well there's one here well it it might have been pulled out yeah so I don't know when yeah but that yeah that dock is that's a wooden dock right is that the one that says wooden dock I
think uh no that's that was this parcel um Carl and yeah that's that's not that's not showing up here most of the encroachment on that lot 23 there is stuff that's just people you know neighborhood people have left it there
because I I we've kind of allowed it no we did till November till November it's all supposed to be pulled out at the end of November yeah on hard to tell from this but I can't really see it but people are parking cars on a couple of these lots
too right yeah and as and as you can see again it's there there there there we go so you can see like on on this one there's part of a this says gravel area which I'm sure is being used for parking um but where but where it's it's
much more pronounced on on on this one you can see that there's a lot of a lot of encroachments I mean this is this is the one with the sewer pump station oh right if you know where that is um and you can see there's a whole bunch of stuff out there oh put a fire
pit and stuff down that's down around the corner oh oh oh they were allowed to do a fire P they came in for that oh one time we talked to uh a fire pit really that was what Dave was here yeah they put yeah there's a fire pit there's picnic table the whole neighborhood they came in and we told them
that they can't treat it like it's their own lot it's their private property that if they're going to use it that the whole neighborhood down the end is a big loop that all the neighbors have access that because they go down
there and they they have a fire at times Well it certainly is being used as you can see here that here's it might have got out of control couple of picnic tables there's there's a wood dock so I don't know whether you want to revisit that decision um you might have to look
at the what we talked about a while back so that we're consistent with them yeah and if I could jump in now's a good time well not this minute right good time in the process to think about the future use right because you know are we going
to encourage Public Access which is maybe a different decision here on some of this stuff than if we're not and and then I'll just throw out one other the quick thought it almost sounds like having heard some of the neighbors comments about this parcel it almost sounds like the discussion we
just had I think there might be I'm sensing there's a disagreement in the neighborhood you know some people want to sit around or fire pit maybe other people don't you know and I don't know how we resolve that but we should think about what our long-term oh here it is I just notice say this is the fire pit
chairs and looks like two fire pits it kind of goes away against what we kind of want in our reservations we don't want any fires but we're encourage encouraging fires here yeah right yeah there's no continuity and what we're
allowing not consistent yep and getting back to the stone monuments I I think that's a must right this this problem is going to go around the whole lake if we have control points it's going to be easier next time to resolve the lot lines y absolutely
that's that's my opinion so I would I would suggest then the next step is I can I can go and mark up these plans with my recommendations of where the monumentation would go and I can bring that back to the next meeting and then if the commission agrees then I can ask
for an estimate from the surveyor you know what would be the cost for putting in this number of yeah if you do that and we can look at it at the next meeting we could kind of have an idea what's going to you know you don't want to put a granite at every con you want to put it where it's going to matter you
don't want to do it at the Wetland one cuz right it's not an issue right you want one that going to be advantageous for us lat the one closest to the the Wetland property that has no encroachments uh the parcel um this one
um the only the only the only thing the surveyor suggested was maybe up here um maybe doing doing something there although he said that's a little bit uncertain um Accord according to the deeds and the existing plans he he
suggested um we reach out to this this property owner up here you know make sure we do something that you know they're not opposed to he said it's only a few foot difference there were only a few foot discrepancy but still it just you know out of courtesy it would would
be um good to just reach out to that land that's the Wetland the one that's wet yes yes and there's no encroachments there is this up by the Conner yeah it's a lot of lot of invasives in there too I think that's a good idea if you
come in with a idea where you think they should go okay Y and then Carl one of the just quick thing can we at this point reach a kind of a consensus that there are some things on that map that
we probably don't want like a pile of stone pavers and a couple of barrels like regardless of what the thing is going to be used for I think some of that stuff we could probably agree on yeah we should think about like you know the rules at Hart pun no no Fires at har
pond so why are we allowing it you know that's a that's an easy one to me and is there how do we get that message out other than this I think we have to look at it let's let David inventory everything and yeah I I I mean you you certainly have every right you
know it's your prerogative to reverse the decision you made previously especially if it looks like things are getting out of control but I think that is something and when we get to that point we know who the people are that kind of are using it using it most yeah okay
okay um that's good and just a quick Freeman Lake thing there's a public meeting uh tomorrow night on the long awaited Thursday night I'm sorry on the Long awaited Lake so it's posted on the town meeting agendas
at Thursday night right Thursday night at the North old police station old Police Station Road 7 o' 7 o' yeah and I think the consultant and uh Courtney Andor Christine Clancy are going to
present where they are okay well there well there's a draft report so if anyone's interested I can yeah forward you the link yeah there's I got a week ago and I just saw it yes it's only 231 pages I
missed let's just say there's a lot of information in it sure does it make recommendations on that all right let's keep going uh sort of you really have to read it am I allowed to ask some questions hey
Darlene yeah um sure um we we're still talking fre Freeman Lake go ahead yeah so where is that party area I think way down the end Darlene by Gary bevis's
house like around Willis and then around the other side of Willis all the way to the end of Willis where the pumping station is I don't know where that is if you go down 6th take a right go all the way down the
end can you see the plan on your screen darling um I was seeing it but I couldn't tell where it was I can I can take a r i can't drive anymore I've been really sick I can't drive anymore I'll take a walk down
there so so where is it on this plan right right there it's all the way down the end Willis oh so it's not on this it's not on this lot yeah it's on that lot but but where on this lot all the stuff I mean here here are the fire pits
yeah it's right there in the pumping station's right there yes saying the whole so the whole lot is a party lot yeah oh okay is is this map available to the public David yeah I was going to request if I can have it email to me by I I can do that Darlene thank you but
it's but it's not the final version no I understand I'll take a walk over there um what is the status of the other Parcels to be surveyed like the property at the end of first have um we're we're we're waiting to for these to be
completed because these were actually you know deed to the Conservation Commission the my I'll have to go back and double check but my recollection with the other three is two of them are not Conservation Commission land the third one was a tax title taking where
there's there's no reference to any um uh earlier earlier plans or deeds um that's something that will take a significant ly more uh research um which I think certainly we can undertake after
these three are done there was but but I'm glad you asked darling because there's one thing I forgot to mention that I that I think is fairly important is is that the The Sur and the surveyor pointed pointed this out I think some people already know that there's a 12
foot wide strip of land that surrounds the shoreline which actually um belonged to the Boston ice company and of course W of course they they went extinct they no longer exist but um it
it that land would have been passed on to their successors and assigns now the surveyor was saying that might have been passed on to the town but but but I think the bottom line is and he's going to do a little bit more research but I think the bottom line is that needs a
title examination you have to ask that go that goes back to the history that I that I looked at how this Lake was even formed was by the Boston Ice Company by um using the um
the stream I forget the name of the stream over at the end of the Lake ston Brook what's that called St ston Brook Stony Brook yeah Stony Brook was diverted to create this Lake right way back when the Boston ice company was there
and then somebody else made a comment about um you know how they treat heart L why not or Heart Lake yeah Heart Lake why don't they treat this Lake the same that's been my concern all along yep it's not being the
conservation landan is not being respected by people putting their car so one person at the end of the road here doesn't even have a driveway because they just park on the lake so thanks for listening thanks darene okay yeah and I think if I could
just make a comment I think like I said earlier there's probably some uses of this land that clearly would not be acceptable to this commission so why don't we think about that going forward yep yep yep hot Pond and and this Pond
are different because there's a there's a lot road all the way around this Lake yeah there's nothing like that around hot Pond yeah no there's a lot of differences but things like the beach at Pond uh this the town property uh does
not allow fires no barbecues no Camp you know none of that it's like well we shouldn't that here and we own land on the other side of the lake Arney Park where I assume there's no fires right same right so don't you need to go to a different Lake right yeah this got
changed about four or five years ago and wasn't what I we should look at it again yeah I I think you're right thank you all okay we are at Land Management kulis farm so um at the last meeting uh the
next day David and I met with John Ray about kulis and we were pretty clear with him that we were not looking at having Stone field Stones moved in the in the field um that that was not likely to be uh allowed uh on that site as
we're probably going to make that area a meadow like uh uh the the right side so that's that discussion we were we had that discussion that day and I think he understood that I'm not sure based on some emails if he remembers that
discussion but that was what we agreed to or that's what we said um and uh we're we're still having some emails from him but uh that's that's where we left it um we are trying to keep a conversation going with him um so we'll
we'll keep trying to have a a back and forth a discussion anything else on kolis David uh no do you want to mention some negative comments about Kess about kolis negative
um on Facebook or something that we you mean the town meeting no just on things that would some stuff getting brought out there it is pro that's I didn't know it was I'll address something like that in in a couple minutes
yeah uh were you going to mention the DCR yes on under my report yes oh okay although I can mention it now okay so um so someone someone from the DCR um fire fire office or Bureau of of
fire and Forestry came into the office yesterday um and saying that um they would like to cut down more trees up on Robin Hill you know around around the water the fire tower because they were
obstructing the view um in in all directions that that they need they say to to look uh for fires um so he he said something like 30 80 foot high Pines that they want to take down didn't they
just cut trees down that yes yes they top that was for the radio did they top them or did they take down trees um I I I don't know I thought they were going to take them the plan the plan we discussed was removal I didn't yeah maybe may they just end uping them but it was only like six right and that and
that was just for the radio um but this this is this is different this this is to be able to have a horizon to Horizon View of um of the landscape to look for fires I mean I didn't think that that site would be that important for that
reason but I they seem to feel it is so I said well that that would be a decision that would have to be made by the Conservation Commission so so so what kind of questions do we have I I mean when I think about it you know I talked about it
briefly um I'm thinking about things like well you mentioned if if they were going to cut it it would have to be outside of a nesting season yes um but um how often um is somebody up in that Tower or is this are they going to some
kind of lar you know automated view thing uh that that does this is it a technology thing or something like that so I guess I'd want to understand that um and um I don't know you guys come up with other questions CU I'm not real
keen on cutting 80 you know 30 80 foot trees down unless I mean I don't want to see fires don't get me wrong but um that's a that's a hell of a lot of big beautiful trees do we think they're all pine trees uh that's what he said now I haven't seen them he said that they all are they
all are there it's mostly if I remember but it could be others yeah I would I would share with the commission maybe you all have done this but a long time ago 20 years um I had a chance to uh tour the tower when the DCR fire person
was there I don't know how often they do that but it was quite a discussion on you know with all the maps and I felt like I was out west somewhere or up north there really is a whole series of fire Lookouts M active in this in this part of the
state um yeah I guess I I don't have a sense for how active it is but all I'm sorry all the trees are on Town property conservation property yes on private property uh no could we ask DCR to
rebuild the uh what used to be up there a long time ago a little ice cream stand or something yeah was 150 years ago there wasn't I or 100 years ago that was empty the top of the mountain was empty the top of the hill was I think at that
time it was are these trees going to make it well not not ultimately I mean well no ultimately I mean pine trees have a lifespan yeah sure but I mean ride around town after every storm and you see another one on somebody's house yeah yeah yeah but I'm not in the hurry
to take him down though so well well can can members email me questions or concerns that I can forward to this guy um that's I guess is it possible to have him come in and make a make a proposal or make a you know describe like how how
important is this to to yeah I can ask I would think you'd be willing to do that you don't want to ask the people in California yeah no well we're not in California we get not in California but forestation and everything else has stuff that should be looked at yeah Y and and you
might the underbrush and everything yeah you know the down trees that you see all around now yeah that's my opinion yeah okay and you might mention to them that we don't really understand or would like to learn more about the fire tower
function they might assume we know well I I will um tell him that the commission would like him to come in and talk to him about it and then could you ask well that's a question let's make it a community event if we have to let some trees go where they open up the thing
twice a year yeah it's very cool yeah no I people would love to get up there yeah oh it's fantastic it's unbelievable how many trees you see yeah but you don't think of it that way when you're driving around I just can I bring something up yeah I was uh mentioned to David at the
cranberry bog in carile I guess a dog got killed there were two dogs dogs one attacked one bigger dog attacked another dog and killed it or they had to euthanize it and the person
who owned the dog the bigger dog gave a false name and phone number to the police so it's on Facebook you can see it where they're looking for the person so the way reason I'm bringing up because our land buts that do we need to
put sign more signs up to have dog on the leash or you know there there are signs because what's the liability of we have signs we have plenty of signs there plenty of signs no doubt about that okay but it's not but car is different car it's not enforced in chelsford but
Carlile is um keep you control keep your do Under Control so oh boy that's awful and Bill I might mention um there have been uh incidents on our part of the cranberry bog over the years that I'm
aware of sure not public but I mean I I had a dog go after me and you know I kind of right I'm glad I wasn't 90 lb in weight let's put it that way yeah okay so one couple more things one is
Thanksgiving Forest um the group that's doing the uh pollinator Garden I met with them on Friday I think it is and we're getting an angle on getting some watering cubes hopefully from the
uh Sunny Meadow uh community garden cuz they are changing their watering strategy and so they've I've asked them to make a request to the community garden group and uh so they're working that and um they're really enthusiastic it's a good group um they've got a lot
of good ideas um they are also looking at speaking of cutting down trees these are Norway Maples they're looking at trying to take down some Norway Maples right there so we're going to try to get that quantifi and look at that and take a look at that I'm I'm more inclined to
do that there because they have ideas for what they would replace them with um with some shrubs and some other things um and the Norway Maples when you look there you can see them spreading into Thanksgiving forest and I'm like yep that's that's the probably the right
thing to do because they keep they keep spreading in there so have have you been out there in the last month or so well I haven't walked through the pro property I mean the yeah but I was on that that front area th this is not a big deal but I it doesn't bother me but I could some
see some people being concerned about the uh orange like construction tape that I assume was used to Mark the pollinator Garden it just kind of to me it's jarring when you pull up there kind of out in the woods and all a sudden you see like red construction tape or the
you know and not a big deal but maybe some string that you don't like you guys did at kulis yeah except the I don't know I don't I don't know the answer the deer get tangled up in it I guess so I don't know that breaks my heart yeah all right so I do have uh a a new a new
section of our of our meeting that's not on the agenda and it's going to be called for the record um so um we um it speaking of Facebook um there were comments on Facebook from the cost uh Facebook page saying that we do not
allow uh night use of our reservations and as we all discussed in our meeting in December we do allow night use of the reservations with a registration form to David that's always been the case um for many years and it still continues to be
the case we didn't change that nothing changed I asked Mr stanway to correct the record to correct his posting I have not seen that done yet but um uh I asked him to correct it we went back and forth on some emails over a week ago and as of a couple days ago I have not seen any
correction but just to be State for the record we're nodding right we're we agree that if if somebody submits a request to David um for a normal kind of an event uh on at at night um we're almost certainly going to approve it
unless it's something outrageous and crazy um so nothing has changed so I'm a little frustrated that we're getting uh false information put out there and people are are listening to it and not getting not getting accurate information so that's one thing and the second thing
is that Mr Ray was here last week at the last meeting and he said that um that the at the coolest task force that Mr Cohen Our Town manager asked the parley's to requested that they hay the field and I checked with Paul I was
quite certain that wasn't true and Paul said that is not accurate and in fact I went back and looked at the meeting minutes for the first kolis Farm task force meeting and it said that one of the first things in the in the agenda was that parley Farm representative stated interest in leasing land for
agricultural purposes similar to Sheen Farm lease that's all fine that's all great but to to represent it that that the town asked the parlees is not accurate that's not that's not how it went so I I wanted to correct the record that's not the way it went um I think
it's a it's fine to use that parcel of land for cutting hay and Caroline will be here maybe at the next meeting yes and that that should go fine um we did do an AR a with Mike risbeck on the other side property last year for uh his
pumpkin farm so we're being consistent there we're just trying to document make sure that we protect Wetlands I think that's the right thing to do we're not charging the the the RDA fee we don't do that on a Town property so again I'm just trying to set the record straight
this is this is how we're how we're doing things any reaction any comment oh great okay could could I make just a general comment is this theme has come up a couple times during this Commission meeting and things change that's all
over time that's all and some people I just people need to understand that things change fire pit might be fine on the lake maybe it is or not going forward I don't know but things change yeah and that's just but it didn't change with night allowing night visits to be clear
we don't allow people to generally walk on our reservations it's open Dawn to dust that's our standard you want an exception make a request David if it's a pretty simple straightforward request he'll probably approve it within a couple days if it's 100 people it's
going to come to us take three or four weeks or whatever so that's that's where and I apologize I wasn't being very clear I was thinking specifically about the coolest task force oh that was all for promoting certain uses as recommendations but now things have
changed it's a year or two later the leaders sh has shifted and and Carl and I are working on making a few minor revisions to the event registration form which should provide a better uh understanding of you know whatever is being proposed or being requested so
this is just for groups of people that want to the average person right can't go out there at night correct yes correct because it's a safety issue right we just don't allow it yeah right but but if somebody's looking to have
their scouting group go out there um we we're almost certainly going to allow that so as as we have in the past uh agents report anything else uh no okay approval for Signature
certificate of compliance on 14 Janet road so 14 Janet Road was one of those ones where of Thanksgiving Forest it's not far from Thanksgiving Forest it's yeah um that that was for a uh actually addition and some related work that was
never started so that's that's checking off the Box invalid order of conditions work never started um the the other one 42 West viiew Drive if if uh commission members recall that was the Second Story add add being added on to a house right
on har pond so um that that that that's all set I've I've done I've done a site visit I've received an asil plan so um every everything looks good and I recommend the commission issue that one okay take a motion to approve that
you could do both the same motion Move Motion to approve both certificates and compliance by B second by John all in favor I I I let's sign those no meeting minutes right no Vivian okay I'll take a motion to
adjourn motion from Bill second by Mark all in favor I J thank you very much CH T media e e e e e
e e e e for