We'll start the meeting. It is uh now 7 o'clock on Tuesday, September 23rd, 2025. Call this meeting of the Chford Conservation Commission to order. My name is Carl Bishoff. I'm the chair of the commission. We'll be post following the published and posted agenda. The uh
meeting is both in person and through Zoom. In the case of the Zoom not working properly, we will continue the meeting in person only. This meeting is being broadcast and recorded by Chamster Teledia and will be available on their website and on YouTube. And we clearly
have a quorum, so we're good to go. Um I don't think we have any adjustments on our agenda. Uh am I right, David? Um I know we may get through a couple of them fairly fast, but um but everything's on track. Nothing nothing new since it was posted. Okay, good. All right. So, we will start
with our um our first uh presenter in the open session. We have uh Mr. Scott Vaneier from uh why don't you tell us about the project? Uh you and I have talked about it. So, um but yeah, I'll let you take the take it from here. Hi. Uh good evening. Uh my name is Scott
Vier. I'm here representing Nvidia in Westford. Um we are uh proposing to do a community service project from the office uh and we would like to replace the rotted split rail
fences at Redwing Farm. Next slide. So, uh as you can see here, currently the fence is in disrepair. Um, it's just old, it's wood, it rotted. Um,
and so we would want to take that out and replace it with a shiny new split rail fence just like the existing one. Here's a closeup. You can see the rot on the posts. There's still some good ones. There's a lot of them that the entire
post below the grade is just completely rotted away and the post is just hanging by the rails instead of the other way around. So, uh, this diagram shows all the fence on the property. Um, there's 775 ft in
total. Uh, it's of varying ages and in varying degrees of disrepair. So, we haven't totally finalized on on if we're going to do all of it or not. Part of that will depend on material availability and how many volunteers we
can get for the day and uh you know stuff like that. But uh we're looking at putting in um split rail you know traditional New England split rail fence uh three rails in each segment and we'll be doing uh new posts
new rails uh all the way around. Uh the NVIDIA Foundation will be providing all the funding for materials, disposal, lunch, everything. Uh our Westford office will provide about 30 volunteers.
Uh maybe as many as 40. We'll see. Um parking is a bit of a constraint. So we might have to limit um our volunteer count. and um the com uh and the
volunteer core that you have will uh supervise to make sure we we don't do anything unoured. Um as well as provide a couple of tools and things. Um postal digger
being the uh most important one. Uh we're targeting Friday, October 17th is our work day. Uh with a rain date of the a week later, the 25th might be the date if we can't get material in time, too. But
certainly, uh so what is Nvidia doing in this? It's this is way outside our core business. Um, we have a program called Inspire 365 that allows employees to uh take on this
sort of project, a one-day high impact project. Um, you know, we all just that is our job for the day. Uh, everyone who volunteers um, previously we've done projects like this with a number of other
organizations around here. We've done the LOL Boys and Girls Club. uh the Bartlett School in Lel uh as well as with uh the Westford Conservation Trust. And of course, there's a few challenges here. Um the one we can't do anything
about, of course, is the weather. Uh who knows what's going to happen with the weather in October. We could get a noraster and end up with a foot of snow. We could get a hurricane or we could end up with 75 degree days. Um, so that
that's the big unknown. Uh, the next challenge is finding a supplier for the posts. Um, it's surprisingly hard to come by split rail fence materials, especially when you're looking for locust or cedar. Um, so we're we're
still looking into that. And of course, this is very quick. So even if we find a supplier and place an order, they might not be able to deliver in time. Um, but we're going to see what we can do. Worst case, if we can't get things in time, we can always reschedule for the spring.
I think that's is that it? Uh, I think I have one more. Yeah. And the last is uh the acknowledgements. Of course, have to thank Nvidia for giving us the time to do the projects. The NVIDIA Foundation for paying for the whole thing. and then
thank uh Concom for the properties and the volunteer corps uh for having a project like this ready to go especially um Bill who had pre-scouted all this and had a material list and everything
already planned. Uh so that really Bill Bill Dowling. Yeah, that really made it uh uh easier for us to hit the ground running here. Yeah, we had a um sitewalk. We did a sitewalk. I think it was in June that some of us were there to visit the site and we all
whoever made it, we could clearly see that fence was in really bad shape and we needed to come up with a plan and a project and um this landed in our lap. So, it's like yay. Yeah, we're we're very happy. So, any questions? Uh John, you
I think this is a great thing and I want to thank you and I hope we can get it together. You know, you can work right into November, early December. Don't be scared. We'll see what the weather does. Yeah.
No, thank you. That's It's perfect. Uh, what are you going to do with the fence you're taking out? Uh, so we're going to rent a dumpster. Yeah. Um, like I said, most of it's rotted away and just not useful. There's one
section up sort of by the parking lot. Yeah. uh that's relatively new and could be repurposed. Uh so, you know, up up to you guys. Uh but we could stack that next to instead of in the dumpster and then it could be repurposed elsewhere in town.
Okay. Yeah, that's good to have that around. Um is any of that on Bob Morris's land? No, I confirmed that. I talked to Bob and uh we're clearly we have many feet between this fence. Okay. He did replace a a big chunk of his fence, the post this year,
right? and he made us um look bad. So, Right. Right. Oh, and I did talk to Bob and he offered uh to let us use his driveway for parking. Oh, nice. Okay. All right. That that helps, but not for 30 people. Okay, that's good to know. Thanks. No, thank you. Very nice.
Mark, anything? Uh, no. This is great. Uh, thank you very much. Uh, it's going to be hard to coordinate the logistics for 30 people there. Yes. Yeah. I don't know how that's going to you're going to all have to start in
like 30 different sections. Yeah. Well, that's why that diagram shows there's different sections so that you can say you do this one, you do this one and then they're they're not connected because, right, you don't want to like, you know, at some point you could be way off digging a hole or something because we may have
to dig a lot of holes, right? Do do we know anyone that would be a good construction manager on the board? I think we'll we have we have some good people lined up and certainly anybody here who wants to help, you know, oversee.
Is is the species a sticking point for you on the uh It's really up to us. It's really up to us. So I know you you and I talked about the southern pine and if southern pine we got a quote from Chumps Lumber and um maybe we go with that. It's it's a pressuret treated besides the price being very reasonable.
It's got a, you know, 30 year it's it's pressuret treated southern yellow pine, but it doesn't have that green tint to it, a yellow tint to it. It's brown. So, it's it's got a weather fine. Yeah. And it it's up to you. I think it that'd be okay. The the original spec that was given to
me was requesting cedar or locust. We would we would like locust. That's the long longest term, but it's just hard to get. You can't Nobody has it Yeah. really available. So, Oh, thank you. Why don't we I think we'll try to figure that out and make that happen. And they're willing to work with us and
uh jumps with Lumber. Yes. Yeah. Chris, I know Scott, thank you very much. And a big big thank you to the Nvidia Foundation. It's wonderful seeing them step forward and do something like this in in the community. So, thanks Ellie. I'm good. You're good.
All right, Peter. Anything else the commission or the town can do other than say we support you? Is there anything specific? volunters, you know, whatever. Um, if you happen to know of a source of post hole diggers, that would be
helpful. Power or hand? Power. Yeah. The augers. Yeah. Yeah. We have what is it? 80 posts. We have to We have a Yeah. Around 80. Yeah. But, um, we'll figure it out. I, you know, if we have to rent a couple from Ace Hardware or whatever somewhere. Yeah.
We'll figure it out. Thank you. But, yeah. All right. Um, so it's a good it's a go. Everybody's nodding. This is all great. So, um, we'll connect and figure out our next steps. I think it would be good if we had a few people we meet together and kind of plan out to Mark's point like
how do we have, you know, five teams, six teams, whatever it is, uh, organize the work and all that. So, keep everybody reasonably busy. Um, and, uh, okay, we'll we'll connect. Thanks, Scott. Sounds good. Appreciate Appreciate coming in. Thank you. Thank you.
Very good. Very good. All right. So let's move on to our uh connection with the liaison from the planning board, Mr. Chris Lavali on Zoom. Hello Chris. Good evening guys. Good evening. So at our last uh planning board
meeting, we did approve the 242 Bill Ricka Road um project decision this week. Um this week we've got our manage growth strategy kickoff uh joint meeting for the 6:30. Uh don't
be too long. Hey Chris, we Chris, I'm sorry but you're Do you have another mic or something? Because it's really breaking up. We're hitting about every third word. Can you hear me now? That's better. Sounds better.
All right. Uh, so let me start over. So the last meeting we ended up approving 242 Bill Ricka Road. Um, and we're ratifying that decision this week. Uh this week we have our managed growth strategy kickoff meeting starting at
6:30 with the joint uh task force on uh that. Um we have a number of administrative review items. The Cherford Water District is uh coming before us uh requesting a waiver from the full site review for their PAS
treatment plant. Um we've got a minor modification at 12 Ker Street. Um and then two seed um uh application or applicants uh coming before us 345 North
Road and uh 91 Kingsboro Road. We have no new public hearings for projects and all three of our project public hearings are requesting to be continued to our next meeting. 152 Steman, 191 195
Riverneck and 133 Princeton. So, we probably will have a shorter meeting this week. Okay. Any questions? Okay. All right, Chris. Thanks. Appreciate you joining in. Thanks. Thanks very much. No questions.
Okay. Keep moving here. We've got the uh regulatory hearings. First up on our uh agenda here is notice of intent for construction air design and build at 180 Mil Road. And we have a notice, Mr. Chairman, the legal notice pursuant
to the provisions of the Massachusetts Wetlands Protection Act, Mass General Laws, Chapter 131, Section 40 in the Champsy Wetlands by Chapter 187, the Chson Conservation Commission will conduct a public hearing here in room 204 at the town offices. on Tuesday,
September 23rd, 2025 to consider the notice of intent filed by construction air design and build on behalf of property owners America Longo for proposed work within 100 foot buffer zone of bordering vegetated wetlands at
180 Mil Road. Further identifies assessors map parcel map 105/block 397 lot 35. The project entails construction of a 21 foot by 16 foot that would be 336 square feet addition
to an existing single family home installation of associated drainage infrastructure and utilities grading and landscaping. Mr. Chair, thank you very much Chris. Appreciate it. Um, do we have the representative here in the room or on the on Zoom? Is
it David? Uh, yes. We have uh Limhood uh Te from GPR uh is on Zoom. Are you there Lim Hood? Yes, I am. Hi, good evening everyone. Good evening. Could you uh present your project to us please?
Yes, of course. Um my name is Lumativ. I'm an engineer at GM Press and Ringwall GPR for short. Um Oh, you already got the site plan up. All righty. Um so the subject site is located at uh 180 Mil Road. Um the applicant and owner is
proposing to install the building addition. You see on the site there um on the uh left side of the sheet there which is on the western portion of the site as well as the nor northern uh portion of
the site. We have an existing border bordering vegetative wetland uh that projects his uh buffer limit um really onto the majority of the existing site. Um the addition will go in as uh 21 by
16 uh 336 square footage. Um with the closest corner being approximately 52 feet away from the nearest point of the edge of wetland. um to provide mitigation for the
increase in imperous area on site. proposing to in uh install um an under subsurface chambers on the the lawn there to with a pop-up emitter so that it can overflow
uh gets filtered through the existing grass lawn before getting back into the wellen area um adjacent to the u adjacent to the lawn there. Um that's really it. um more than happy to
answer any questions you may have. Okay. Thank you very much, David. I'm pretty sure you went and visited the site. Can you any comments or any uh No, not really. I mean, this this uh it's, as uh Limhood just said, it's going into lawn. No trees are being
taken down. It's outside the 50oot no build. Um there's a drainage being uh provided for the roof runoff. I mean, this is this is really simple uh and straightforward. I I I recommend approval with a standard order of conditions. Okay. All right. Well, let's see what
the commission says. Peter, do you want to start us off? Uh, yeah. I have no uh uh real comments. I just wanted to make the point that we own land behind this property about 7 acres and then we also uh own another
chunk adjacent to that and it is part of one of our core habitat wersheds. Um David, you help me understand this. I think it's it's just I just want to make the comment. I mean, you look at the GIS in the town and it looks like it's kind of an isolated wetland, but it's not. It's part of the watershed system of one
of the rivers that we're sort of interested in. Um, but the project, as I understand, it meets all of our requirements. So, I don't have any other comments. Good. Ally, uh, no, thank you. You're good. Okay, Chris. I'm good, Carl. Mark?
I'm good. No questions, Bill. John, no questions. But I do have one thing to say. I've lived on Mill Road all my life and I never saw this rocky hill
until tonight and I know there's a lot of rock there. Okay. But no, okay. All right. No, I seriously I have no It's great. Okay. All right. Good. Great job. All right. So, so I I just have one
question though for Limhood, an administrative question. So, Limhood, uh, I checked um the D website today. They still haven't even acknowledge receipt of the NOI. You, which is probably their slowness, but I mean, you had you did send it to them. You did pay
the fee, right? We paid the fee. We send it to them. Unfortunately, for the uh Northeast Regional Office, I believe they don't accept email submission anymore. So, it has to be submitted the uh through the mail, which you know could take a little
while. Um our office, Bruce from our office did speak with uh somebody at D. They acknowledge that yes, they received the fee check in the lock box, but they still have yet to process the actual application and provide an NOI number.
Okay. Well, you know, um I I I really think uh the commission doesn't meet again for another 3 weeks, and I I don't think it's really fair to the applicant to keep the hearing open for another three weeks just because there's not a file number, which is really de's fault.
It's it's such a simple project. I recommend the commission go ahead and close the hearing anyway and you know uh approve the approve an issuance of an order of conditions and you know once once they assign the file number I'll I'll just write that on the order of conditions. I mean that's
do do they have to wait for the uh 21 days after the file number's been issued? No. They can soon as we as soon as we give the okay, right? It's 21 days after we close the hearing. Yeah. Okay. I can't imagine they'll have an issue. So, yeah. And and and I mean, won't be able
to issue it without a file number, but I can't believe they're going to be delayed that long. Okay. Okay. We'll deal with that. If there's an issue, we'll figure it out. Okay. But I'm I'm with you. I I think everybody's okay with that. So, I take a motion. Oh, any public input? I mean, uh, good question. Thank you, Chris. Do
this is a public hearing, so if there's any public input from anyone in the public and um, nobody on the Zoom, I presume, David. Okay. I don't see anybody moving. So I move then we close this hearing. Motion from Chris. Second. Second from Ally. Okay. All in favor?
I I the mo the hearing is closed. Mr. Chairman, I move that we issue our standard order of conditions. Motion from Chris. Standard order of conditions for uh 180 Mil Road. Second. Second from Mark. Any All in favor?
I. I. Okay. All right. You're good to go. Thank you very much. Good presentation, nice project, and uh good luck. Thank you. Have a good evening. You too. You too. All right. Okay, that's
one. Uh, next one we have request for determination of applicability. This is continued. Oh, this one's continued from the last meeting. Mr. Peter Morren, 272 Old Westford Road, and he is the applicant and property owner. And uh
there he is. He is apologize about two weeks ago. I didn't realize I had to be here at the meeting and uh Good evening. Misunderstood that. So, good evening everybody. Um can you just state your name and address? Sure. This is Peter Morren. My address
is 241 Old Westford Road. This uh project is at 272 Old Westford Road. Can you just talk about it briefly, what the project is and Yeah, sure. So, um, we the 272 Old Westford Road is the country crearyy and
ice cream shop and, um, often people use the town lot and walk over to our property and there's a footpath that has developed. It's just a dirt path. I was approached by u the Chsford Open Space Stewardship, uh, Phil
Stanway in particular, who had the idea of, hey, I've got some pavers. Wouldn't it be nice if we did a uh a paver pathway that was a little more level uh and you know it's an ADA improvement if you will and um talked about uh made it
sound very simple um so then I was found out that obviously we had to you know start with this determination um and then I understand there may be some additional steps after that so I guess we're nothing simple nothing simple I I should have known that but um That's that's essentially
the project. So it's pavers. It's pavers uh in a in uh I think how how long is this? Yeah. So that's approximately 40 ft. Um so uh Phil had written up a proposal. I
think it had gone to David I believe uh of the construction process going down eight or nine in hard pack having it retained with uh edging so that the paver stayed tight. Okay. doing the CN filler and all that. Okay. He was in charge of the project.
Okay. David, have you any anything else you want to add? Uh, no, not really. Okay. David, do you do you you've been out there, right? I think. Yes. Um, so uh I think I think uh with Well, I guess I'll ask a couple of questions first.
So, so Peter, um where where is where is the property line? Um is it is it the um Robertsfield parking lot right there? So, yes. So that was my impression. And then um we received something from the
DPW. I believe it was Anthony Tony. Yeah. Tony. And it showed that the property line they had on file runs right through the middle of the brook. Right. So then that would come out right in the middle of that pathway. Which means half would be on my property
and half would be on town property. There in lies the some of the next steps of that's where it gets complicated. That's where it gets complicated. Right. So, it may just be scrapping the whole idea. Um, depending on how much time is involved.
Well, obvious obviously if if a portion of it is on the town property, you'd have you'd have to get permission from the town to do it. So, is that what they said something about a row permit, which I had never heard of? Well, that's that's that's actually a separate issue. Um, that that's
something that's that's issued by the DPW for working in the road right ofway. So you you'd have to get that permit from them, but even before that, you'd have to get some kind of permission from the the select board office, you know,
probably going through the town manager. Um, and and I I don't know that that will be a problem. I have no reason to think it will be. The the only thing that I I think they will want is they will want a certificate of liability insurance um from from I I think who's
ever actually doing the work. Although maybe maybe that maybe it would be acceptable coming from you as well. That's that's just another thing you would have to check with them on. So is that a certificate of liability for the construction process or
the maintenance of the path after like the construction? Yeah. Certific certificate of of liability liability insurance for construction on the town owned portion of the property. Got it. Um, I've uh I've Tony from the the DPW
engineers told me he's not concerned because there is a culvert right here, right? He's not he's not concerned that that this that this is going down far enough that might potentially impact um that um but but you can see I mean this
is proposed to go really really close to the wetlands uh which is right over here and and and I think with regard to potential wetland impacts I think the biggest concern and I mentioned this to you before is you know where's the drainage from the walkway going um would
want to make sure that it's it's not it's it's not running off uh in such a way as to cause erosion that that would then flow uh into the wetlands. So uh I I I don't know how that can be assured um during construction. I mean there
there's there's no elevations, you know, for the slope and the pitch that's shown on the um the plans here. and and maybe making it perfectly level would be fine, but I think that that's something that who's ever actually doing the work, you
know, will need to be aware of and, you know, deal with. Again, I would probably So, Phil was going to run this project. I went on the assumption that um he's got the the knowhow and the skills to do that and the team to do that. Mhm.
So, you know, I mean, this this this is a uh an RDA. Um I I I think I think it could be a negative determination with, you know, certain conditions. Um I I think I think you know one of which I
think probably the primary one um I mean in addition to the standard ones is that I I think we uh there would have to be prior to the start of construction there would have to be a meeting with who's ever actually doing the work. Sure. And I don't know if you know who that is
at this point. Um so again Phil had said I've got a crew of volunteers. We do this stuff all the time. I couldn't pull that crew together. So, okay. Well, we'd we'd we we we'd have to have an on-site meeting with them, you
know, prior to the start of work, you know, assuming all these other issues can be worked out. You know, have to talk about things like, you know, what what you know, equipment is being used, what machinery pro probably it's would be a small um you know, a mini
excavator. I don't know, people on this commission know more about that than I do. uh I have have to get a um you know a detailed you know construction sequence something like that. Um so just my two cents. Okay. Thank you David. Peter Peter you
want to continue here? Uh yeah so my first thought Peter I think you understand this but town law is no disturb within 25 ft of a wetland. So that's one thing one reason David's asking all these questions. Yeah. Yeah. Um, not I mean we can grant
a waiver, but you know it's not unusual either, but it's not not straightforward. So that's went through some of this when we put the grease trap out behind the building. So I recall the process. Yeah. So I just wanted to make that comment. Um, secondly, this is interesting. You know, these, like I said before, these wetlands are all connected into a system
in town and that's one thing we're here to try to protect. So that's the other reason for questions. Um, I do have a question. Maybe it's for the commissioner, David, but our regs uh we don't talk about this a lot, but our regs call for doing a alternative
analysis. So the question I'm asking myself and the commission, you know, there are alternatives. I mean, do nothing. Don't use bricks, use something else. There's a bunch of alternatives. This analysis doesn't need to be a big engineering
study. But I'm just sort of asking myself the question if the proposal is to dig in the 25 ft no disturb zone. Should we look at alternatives and what's the benefit to the wetland of having the bricks versus the dirt? And
you could make an argument. I mean it's a we not getting into it now, but right the argument is when it rains hard this stuff probably washes junk into the thing. When you got bricks maybe that stops it, but the bricks probably makes more. You know there it's a technical thing. Yeah. Um, not saying we have to do a big study, but it's just something to think
about. I would certainly entertain alternatives and I would entertain doing nothing. So, what's what's best for your business? Yeah, I would ask that question, too. There's a perfectly good sidewalk 10 ft away. Exactly. The sidewalk's right on the other side of those rocks and, you know,
we've been open. This is our our fourth season and we've had no problem with people walking the path that's there. So, yeah. But again, I think the point is it's a good point. I mean, it's not really our purview to worry about the business part, but sure, the town has spent so much money on Robert's Field and it's a great place
and you're part of that and you know, I want to respect that. No, I appreciate that. Ally, you have questions? No. Okay, Chris. Yeah, Mr. Mo, I just think it's one as as we kind of start to get into this what looked like a pretty simple type
little path, I think is getting getting complicated, right? especially with some of the issues and some of the legalities with the town owning part of it and all that. So, I'm I I personally think that it might be simpler just to kind of, you know, withdraw the request and and leave things alone, but that's that's just my thought.
So, um you that's probably what's my gut instinct in my head is right now. I'd love to hear what Phil has to say if if he's got any other ideas or whatever, but Mark, um, a lot of those sentiments I I echo too, but I was down there last week and
the brick you have there isn't nearly enough to do that. Yeah, he Well, I believe he still has more of that same brick at his location there, the open space. Okay. You got 1,600 160 square ft.
160 square feet. They wrote three brick per square foot. We looking a lot of a lot of brick there. He's a contractor. Yeah. Yeah. No, I get it. Stone dust and Yeah. If if it all falls together, great. It It's going to be a lot of work
on somebody's part just to get at the start, right? So, but maybe a couple bushes there and use the sidewalk just to suggest. You're not the first person to suggest that. Mr. Vines, hello, Bill.
Hi. um on anything like this to be consistent with other projects that we do. We have a certified plot plan, especially when it's half of the property is his and half is the town just to cover everyone
of who's doing what on whose land, who's responsible for it later. I'd hate to see him get have an issue down the road because of something we did here. Um I don't know if you have that plot a plot plan from the grief tank when we did that.
So let me flip it the other way. Does wouldn't the town have a plan of where their property ends? But not of your property. You need No, but where does their where does the town property end? That's where mine starts, right? You're at the halfway in the
Maybe I'm oversimplifying. Huh? Maybe I'm oversimplifying. Can well can can I jump in because this happens a lot. Um the town has the GIS system and you know it's whatever but I think what we have found back me up here that um we normally require on a bigger project
anyway a survey because the surveyor lines the legal description of the project done by a surveyor often gives surprises of where that line really is. And so I think what you're saying is because of
that uncertainty in where the line really is and the only way to document that is with a the plot plan that a surveyor um I think what you're saying Bill is that without that there could be a future legal issue. Sure. Like who owns what, right? And
Right. And also normally we would have the wetlands on that certified plot plan. The wetlands would be delineated. That's our that's our major interest. Right. Yeah. So, so you you so Peter you said you did
speak with Tony at DPW who who literally it was I haven't spoken with him. It was an email I think. Okay. So, how did it get forwarded by you that where you had that well that that was that was related to working in the right of way. I don't think I don't think he included
in in that email that the property line runs through the middle of the brook. The attachment on that email showed that there was an attachment with from 1972 and it showed so so he DPW may have a survey plan of
the property. Um I suggest you ask him okay for that. Sure. But but then yeah there's there's there's also the issue with showing the wetlands on it and that as has been said the commission typically requires a a
wetland scientist okay to do a delineation and then the surveyor to put the wetland delineation on the plan. I don't I don't know if DPW has that plan. Um a wetland delineation plan. Probably not or at least that's
not very recently, but you could also ask. Okay. Yeah. So, let let's just keep moving through. Um Bill, anything else? Um John? Well, this started off as a simple project and it snowballed
into who owns what, right? Who's going to be liable for whatever. I agree with everything that's been said here, you know, so that's where I stand. Okay. All right. So, we have we have a lot of uh it's I'm sure it's
frustrating. We we get it. I kind of knew what I was walking into after the last couple Yeah. It's just kind of It looks so simple and it's not that simple. Liability, right? I mean, if you had a contractor that has that does this all the time,
they would have come in with here's the engineering drawing, here's this. Wouldn't have been cheap, wouldn't have been free. And I get it. But, um, you know, we're trying to be consistent with all of our projects, you know, in terms of not, you know, very very rarely
bending the rules for anything or or anything. It's got to be very, you know, and this this the I've been there. The business is doing great. It's a great addition to the area. It's um that whole I'm super impressed with Robert's Field and how they've done that project. I live generally in the area and um it's
it's a it's a great thing and it seemed like a simple thing. So um I'm not sure where we are. We have an RDA. Um we can continue it. That's what I'm thinking. I would think we we our next meeting is is scheduled
on um maybe sometime October Yeah. October 14th and then that way you can kind of give some thought to the situation, think about it, look at your options. Um I I would be willing to wave all the fees that might have already been
submitted if you decide you want to pull it um pull it back. I don't think we you know this anyway that's that's my thought and and do we need to summarize what we what we were thinking because for example David not I mean do we need a wetland
delineation? Do we know where they are? I mean, yeah, I'm going to miss, forgive me. Yeah, I'm not sure we need that, but I think the legal stuff with the town is is that's your biggest want to go forward with anything. I got to figure that out. Certificate of liability for whoever's
doing the work. Yeah, it's this that gets to be gets to be big. All right, then. Um I take a motion. I make a motion that we continue this hearing until our next meeting, which is October 14th, 2025. All right. Thank you. Motion from Chris,
second. Second from Ally. All in favor? I. All right. Good luck, Mr. Warren. By the way, you you got incredibly great ice cream at that place. Incredibly great. Thank you so much. Say that again for our TV audience. For the TV audience. Chumpsuit crearyy.
Uh, country country crearyy. Crunchy creary. There is Chster Crearyy over on 3A. Yeah, the place. That's right. Competition. All right. All right. They're They're both good. 272 Old. Okay, that was the one we just did. Now we are up to
the NOI uh continued from August 26. This is for Avatar Construction at 242 Bill Rea Road. Uh Mr. David Cowell, we have not I have not heard a thing. I've got He's not in the room and he's not on the Zoom.
No. Is I don't Is there anyone? No, I don't think there's anyone here. Um so did not receive any new information that the commission requested. did not receive a request for a continuence. Okay. The planning board said they said that they closed on that. Um so, uh I
don't know if again there was a misunderstanding. Am I you can check the minutes. Um but I I specifically remember we purposely put it out two meetings because they had the planning board meeting in the interim. Well, and they requested that. Yeah. They requested the September 23rd as as
I recall. Okay. So I I'm fine if we continue this and see if we can straighten this out for our next meeting. Uh I want to take a motion. We have to put a limit on Yeah. This is one time. Yeah. One move. Yeah. Okay.
I moved then that we continue this hearing until our next meeting of October 14th. Motion from Chris, second from Mark. All in favor? I. We'll we'll continue the hearing to uh October 14th for 242 Bill Rucker
Road. Okay. Next up, we have notice of intent. Also, uh this is actually from August 12th. Uh this is uh owner Dylan Lee for Russell Road. We have Mr. Hammer here. Um just as a note, I know John and I were both not here at that meeting on
August 12th. I don't think there's been a meeting since, but we both did the Yep. did the uh Mullen so that we can uh we can participate in this. Um so um let me just say left over from that meeting on August 12th, there were
some issues with the pre-existing building. Um some questions about the status of that building. There's um some question about the commitments from the applicant for permit conditions um about things like shrubs, lawn size,
etc. And then um there was some questions about the groundwater displacement uh issue um and the the uh construction of the frost wall. I think that that was kind of it. David, am I missing anything else that no try to cover a different location?
Um that's that's fine. I I think you where you were is fine. Yeah, there there are a number of screens where the same plan can be shown and Okay. So mean Yep. So meanwhile, we have received new info from the applicant which included a cover letter that we
received, um a revised NOI, a footing analysis, and a foundation plan. So we have all that information. Good evening. Uh state your name and and we'll get going here. Okay, great. Good evening, chair and members of the board. Uh for the record, my name is Matt Hammer um with Lamplex
Engineering, 60 Fletcher Street, Lass. Uh we're here this evening for a continued hearing uh for the property uh known as four Russell Road. At the last hearing when we were before you, there
was some additional uh recommendations and information requested of which it uh took us a little bit of time to put all that information together and have that be accurate to the commission. So, we appreciate the continuences that the
commission did grant us uh to get us to this point. Those documents that were additional were pertaining to the building here. Um there was a question as to
the uh impact of the footings, the uh analysis of the footings and its uh impact potentially to the groundwater in Freeman Lake. Um as well as those plans were requested to be uh looked at by a
structural engineer, namely the architect. Uh so that we submitted a stamped foundation plan for the building to ensure that all the details of that building have been worked out with an architect. That plan that was submitted
is this plan here. This plan shows all the individual footings as well as the mechanical chase and the footings for the uh stairwell or the exit uh to the building itself.
All of that all of those footings have been quantified in a report that we submitted to the commission to show the um displacement of those footings to what is there now
which is which is sand. So we showed the difference between the u porocity of the sand displaced by concrete. That um that analysis essentially yielded
uh a net potential net increase in in volume which would be one 10,000 of an inch to the watershed that's affected by those footings. So we provided that in a full detailed analysis for that
part of the discussion was to create some additional uh restoration areas. So we have done that as well. There was a recommendation to provide a restoration area along the freedom Freeman Lake which we have done.
That's uh shown here in green. There was a request to provide an additional uh restoration area which we provided here which is 392 square feet. The original restoration area uh remains
uh with the removal of the um the existing structure and restoring that area as well as removing uh invasive uh plant materials within this area here. And then there was an additional
recommendation and this is along Car Path Road here. Okay. In Car Path Road, there's a uh area of historical um dumping of debris uh in this area. One can drive right up Car Path Road at any
time of the day. And there's an area here that we have provided an additional restoration area of 2300 square feet of area uh which I which is shown here as well as a uh installation of a um split
rail fence. And on that split rail fence up um we would put signage that says wetland buffer area no b no no dumping as signage on that fencing. So that
moving forward there would be a considerably less likelihood of there being any um dumping here which has been happening over quite some time. As part of this um restoration
uh proposed here, we would also remove anything we would also remove anything um that you believe there that would be um affecting this restoration area as well.
Uh, I'd like to note that that total area of restoration is now at 4,162 square ft. There's a Norse report which also outlines how that restoration area will be planted with a mixture of uh native
trees, uh, shrubs and ground cover. I also want to um just make note that part of this project was um the the um the repair of a drainage system that was
failing on Car Path Road and Russell Road. Um the applicant went and had those drainage lines uh cleaned out, repointed, and we also submitted a drainage um analysis supplemental drainage report to
show that that system does function in a 100red-year storm. Uh which is also consistent with the goals of the town of Chsford for the MS4 program within the within the town.
Um, additionally, we were we are proposing that the the ongoing maintenance operation and maintenance of those systems on Carp Path and Russell Road would be born to the um the owner of
this property which would be um Dylan Lee and Laura Luna. Oh, this property would have a deed restriction written into the property. That on andm manual would be attached to that deed to show that that would need to be operated and maintained moving
forward. There is no system today that mechanism to do that. So, I think it's presumed that that system probably will fail again unless it is operated and maintained. So, so that would go with the deed to this property. That's correct.
Okay. Yep. Should also be noted that we were asked to do a isolated land subject to flooding analysis uh for the rear of the property. We provided a full uh submitt on that analysis for the isolated land
subject to flooding which um has a threshold of 1 acre foot. And we did that analysis to show that the rare area is 30 times smaller than that one acre foot threshold.
So the proposed building is 433 square ft in a footprint. Uh that would be removing the existing shed which is 222 square feet. And it just so happens that this building, you know, we can call it a
tiny house or a small home. Um, but it ends up that that home is going to be 900 square ft. It just so happens by coincidence that it coincides with the ADU u uh new law
by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts which has 900 square feet as a threshold. So I think in the in the the vein of creating new housing for the town of Chsford, this also falls in line with that goal of the Commonwealth of
Massachusetts. The driveway is a vegetated porous material. So that's um a best management practice that provides uh a green area as well as
full infiltration for the driveway. The roof runoff will be facilitated in a 1 and 1/2 ft wide drip drain which will be uh fully draining as well. I should note that this lot is um relatively level
slightly um pitching to the rear of the property and that this property will be fully draining within the property itself. So there'll be no drainage mitigating offsite. So, we're requesting a a waiver uh to
the 50 foot setback. Uh the building is 50.1 foot from the rear bordering vegetative wetland which I would say is the primary uh resource area affected by this project
and that we would be um 39 ft from the edge of the Freeman Lake. So we would be requesting a relief of uh 11 ft to that uh 50-foot no building setback. I would say that um this project would
no in no way u adversely affect the freedom u the Freeman Lake by virtue of everything that I just went through related to the the full draining system within the property [Applause]
green best management practice in the way of the the driveway and the infiltration trench but we also have a roadway between us and the Freeman Uh something came up about uh pesticides at one of the earlier hearings.
We have no problem putting a restriction of having no pesticides on this property as well. Um, so that if we eliminate the no pesticides on the property, then that we know will not affect Freeman Lake in terms of the proximity of this project
to Freeman Lake. I should note that this property is a redevelopment. Um, this property right now has um a water and a sewer service to this property. We have a structure on this property. There's a utility pole in the
middle of this property and it is serviced by electricity. So, so the having those components available and we have checked with the um town of Chsford's engineering department and
those utilities are available for this project in in in spite of the sewer moratorum for new sept new sewer connections. So I think that's important that this area has been slated to
uh be serviced by water and sewer to the municipal system. So we don't feel as though this project is going to have any negative effect on the resource areas. If not, if anything, it's going to be a great benefit with all the work that we are proposing and
have done already have done in this area and with having a long-term operation and maintenance for Car Path Road and Russell Road is going to greatly greatly benefit the water quality currently storm water going to Freeman Lake.
you know, the the lots along Russell Road are also very close to Freeman Lake. There's also lots around the entire lake uh that are very close to Freeman Lake. Uh I believe there's 39. I believe this project the way that it's
designed and the way that it would be u implemented with all the best management practices that we have proposed that this property will be the the property that would lease affect Freeman Lake when it's complete
and we respectfully request consideration of our proposal and I can put it to the commission. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. Um David, we had a one open question um
about the u pre-existing building. Um yes in so that uh that question has been answered. So, uh, we we learned after the last hearing or the last session of the hearing that, um, that what what the
building department had in their old files as the as the location of four Russell Road is actually the current location of 16 Russell Road. Um so so the current structure on the property um
call it a shed there's there's no evidence that that was ever a uh a building a dwelling unit. So uh it it the the exemption in the bylaw that says that that could be extended uh you know
would would not apply since since again it it appears it never was a dwelling unit. So, you know, it just um it's it's, you know, if I had to point fingers, if I had to point blame, it's it's the town and their lousy
recordkeeping that that led to that confusion. Uh the the assess the assessor's office can't tell me when the current 16 Russell Road was changed to that number from four Russell Road, but
it it some point back there it was. Um, so I think that issue has been resolved. You have any other comments before we commission? Just just a just a few questions. Uh, Matt, so so how many so how many
footings uh are are being proposed? Steve So there are 16 footings. Okay. Um and so so what I mean what is the the structure the comp the composition what
is the consistency of the substrate where the footings are being proposed? it. So, the the footings will be um installed in a in a sand material. To answer your question, um they'll
stick out of the ground, which shows on the detail in this be the grade. And then this would be um um um 80% uh above 3/4 inch stone gravel underneath
the structure. So that's fully draining. And then this structure is here. Um utilities come into the building through this mechanical chase. But but if you could just point out the finished grade there.
Yep. So that's that's the ground surface, correct? Right. Um so so what what assumptions, if any, did you make about the the the groundwater elevation or the mean groundwater elevation? Because I think I think groundwater is pretty close to the surface there.
That's right. It is. Did Did you actually do any testing? I mean, did you go out there with an augur or anything like that? Well, we have dug a hole, so we do know that there's sand there and that this building can sit on sand through these footings that has
been analyzed by the architect. But it's wet sand. I mean, it's it's isn't really wet sand, isn't it? It's not It's not quick sand. Okay. Okay. It's a It's a sand material. And if you look at all the homes on Russell Road, the reason why they're not sinking
is because they're on that same sand material. It's the reason why the road's not sinking. So, it's a it's a suitable material for construction. So, so I mean, do you do you have a good understanding what would be the work
sequence for actually installing these footings? Yeah, they'll be um dug out and these footings get installed into the hole. They dig a 4ft hole and put the footings in. But if if if the hole fills up with
groundwater, I mean, is that going to be an issue? Well, they're going to have to dewater it when they do that. Okay. So, so we'll need a dewatering plan um you know, prior to the start of construction. We can we can provide that. Okay. Okay. Um and and so uh I mean I
don't I don't want to labor the point. So, so but but so it's for the the um the footing extend 4T below the um uh surface of the ground and the structural engineer has said that that's that's far enough. That's correct.
That okay. Um so, uh I think the only the only other uh thing um and it's very very minor. I don't I don't see the set I don't see the setback from Freeman Lake shown on
this plan. You mentioned it was 39 feet, but it looked like you had drawn that in. Yes, that's correct. So So I think that needs to be added to this plan. It is. It is 39 ft. Okay.
So um I don't have any other questions. All right. Want to start over. John, you want to start us off? Yeah. I'd just like to make a couple statements. You said that this had been hooked up to town sewer the shed and town water.
Uh if I had said in the beginning the first meetings was said that it was hooked up at one time to town sewer and town water. Can you provide a bill for that? No. So we were we misspoke at that
meeting. Okay. There was a there was so when you go to the um building department records and you look at four Russell Road, we came to find out that for Russell Road is actually 16 Russell Road. So we were looking at building
department records that said for Russell Road and that's where we came up with that information. We came to find out afterwards through some additional information that was actually provided by 16 Russell Road that in fact those
records for four Russell Road were actually for 16 Russell Road. You also stated that somebody had lived in the shed. That's right. We correct threw those records which we with town water and sewer.
That's because when we were reading the records, it was saying for Russell Road, but the records were in incorrect in the way that they were labeling the address because they were actually for 16 Russell Road. And this was the pretense of why you
were able to want to build this because of that shed. Well, the the the the the reason why we thought we could build on this property was because there was a sewer in a water stub put into this
property. when we when we had looked at the building department um files and it said for Russell Road and it talked about the improvements to for Russell Road that that gave us the
it falsely gave us the notion that that this was lived in at one point. So then since that first meeting we've come to find out that those records were incorrect as as Mr. Coons had also stated that those records were actually
for 16 Russell Road. So in order to be qualified for the exemption, we're not able to do that because of that uh newly found information related to those records. So, if I may, just to be sure because I I thought
is the stub for the sewer and for the water does it go with 16 now or is there indeed a stub for what is now for Russell Road? There is a stub directly in front of our property for this parcel.
I'm just not comfortable with any of this right now. Well, keep asking questions. Keep asking questions. And all right, Bill. Uh, I still have the I really haven't changed my view on this from day one
that you're asking for a waiver on a vacant piece of property when a month ago, month and a half ago, same type of situation with a larger piece of property. We wouldn't allow that person
to It was eight feet I think that they were asking for a waiver of flaw consistency wise. That's the issue I have with this. And that's assuming you're asking for that waiver assuming that you're going to go to the board of
appeals and get a waiver from them on their 20 foot setback. Correct. Right. Mhm. It just seems like a reach to me that you're asking for a waiver on a vacant. If if you had had that uh the issue with
the shed and 16 Russell Road and that came up at the last meeting, that would have been a a way to maybe get around the waiver because of an existing condition. But being a vacant lot and you're asking
for the waiver, it it just for me and I know you're doing other things on the site. You're proposing other things. It just how can I do this for one person, not the other. That's Yeah. So, we're trying to frame this around a uniqueness with the the
dynamics of this entire area. And I see you doing that. This is a shot. This is a shot for us to to to do all these beneficial things to the the two resource areas and to have it implemented with an
operation maintenance plan that's attached to the deed so it gets continued to be corrected over time. So, um, I understand what you're trying and also I'm sorry I'm go to the microphone, but uh, we uh
I'm sorry. Hold on one second. Yeah, we're we're going to we're going to go through here with questions. We you'll have a chance. You'll have a chance. I just want to You'll have a chance. Please, please. Yeah, we'll we'll get there. The other thing, too, is um, you know,
Car Path Road and the dumping along Car Path Road is a problem. It's been a a problem that's been going on for quite some time, which is my understanding. I think that's your mic. I think you just So, this is also a chance to address that problem as well,
right? Um, so, you know, the, you know, the, you know, Dylan Lee and Laura Luna here are really trying to put their foot forward to do everything they possibly can in order to enhance the area to put in this this small home.
Okay. I just have the What's fair to one is should be fair to the other person. That's where I'm coming from. Has nothing to do with this particular lot. It's just to get past that. I have an issue. Anything else?
No. Okay. Mark, uh I I expressed my concerns at the beginning, too, but I haven't really changed my mind any I'm I'm really in favor of consistency and being fit to everybody. I don't I we we made the fellow run over Westford
Road, change his lot his uh building structure to fit in a lot there and that was done. I don't think you have that opportunity to do that there, but that that house has got a peculiar style to it and shaped. Uh and you you brought up it's the same
size as a ADU, but you're not not applying for an ADU. This doesn't qualify for ADU. Uh, I'm well said, Chris. I mean, I'm I see a hardship for
sure, you know, with a lot. Um, and I thought earlier before that the exemption might have been a possible way to address the situation, but it sounds like that's uh that's closed off. Um, so I guess the question that we've asked kind of from the beginning, is there anything you can do with the site to
conform to the 50oot setback? Is that absolutely impossible? Is there something that can be done? I'm sorry. I didn't Is there something that can be done with respect to the 50 foot setback? Is there any way you can build on that lot? Well, yes, we could um we wouldn't be
able to redesign the home to have it outside of the 50 foot. If that's your question, we could, yes, we could make it two feet shorter, you know, less wide to to to um increase the distance to, let's say, 41 ft to the to the Freeman
uh lake, but we wouldn't be able to completely eliminate the 50-oot setback. Um, you know, you did bring up that whether we have a hardship or not. And if you you do look at the regulations related
to granting waiverss that you can you do have the ability to grant a waiver if you see a hardship. But we don't have any other options on this property to relocate this building. So I do believe that the commission can could look at this project
because there's no options to grant a waiver because there is a hardship. Got nothing right now. Ellie. Um, you guys obviously checked a lot of boxes and been, you know, more than diligent in
meeting certain requests. So, I appreciate that. Thank you. Um, you know, I think kind of going back to what's been echoed over the last couple of meetings in terms of betterment and what the scope of we do here in terms of, you know, mitigating the dumping. Again, I appreciate that, but, you know,
our our job here is obviously conservation land and things like that. And I uh can't speak for what was brought up in past meetings. Obviously, this is kind of my first couple months on Concom, but you know, like Mr. Vine said, you know, what's fair for one, fair for the other. That um being said,
and I don't know if you said it in a previous meeting, is this a prefab home or is this, you know, pre-cut type thing or what type of structure is it? Um it's going to be ground up. Yeah, it's going to be a groundup construction. Okay. So, in terms of
customizing or changing the shape of the home, obviously it's a smaller lot, but you know, I mean, if it was like a a prefab deal that you were slapping in there. Um, yeah, this this building's um is is
customtailored because of the setbacks. Sure. that that's why there's angles that keep us outside of the 50 foot set back to the wetland in the rear and that's what's creating this unique shape. Thank you.
Thanks, Peter. [Music] Uh I have a strong opinion but let me not make it long. Um I think this is very different. Well,
this stuff's complicated. I think this is very different bill than the previous example and I understand the importance of consistency and I understand the principle of fairness. However, I don't recall that
the previous example you cited had the massive amount of environmental appro improvement that this project is offering. So I would suggest this is just my professional opinion as an environmental engineer. So I'm going to forget about
the legality and the consistency for the moment because that is important. I acknowledge that. But my my professional vision is that 11 ft doesn't matter to the overall mission of this commission which is to protect the
environment and to promote habitat and all the values that we have. So to me while that 11 ft might be important at the end of the day because of legal and and president and all that I recognize that but this is a good project for improving the
environment. And if that previous project you're referencing had this amount, you know, 4,000 ft of restoration, porous pavers on the driveway, um shrubs along the lake, I mean, the Freeman Lake studies say we need to have more shrubs around the lake
to prevent that problem. Um it goes on and on. There's like, you know, you did a good job summaries. There's a lot of environmental benefit that fits our mission. So that's what we need to weigh. And I just want to say one more thing. Um,
this is the first time I remember in one of these hearings in three years that the applicant kind of responded to everything we asked for to make it a better project. I wish all of our projects had that kind of back and forth and making it a better project. So
again, maybe we can't give the waiver. I I defer to others, but um I would consider it as a precedent setting to make a clear statement. We want smart development. We're not going to get too hung up.
We do have the authority under our bylaw to grant waiverss, never mind the redevelopment. You read our bylaws, it says, "Hey, we have a 50-foot, you know, no bill, but we have the right to to to give a waiver." So, I don't think there's a legality problem. I think it might go back to the consistency
question. But again, this is different. It has a lot of it. The term is environmental mitigation. It's fixing things that are messed up and we don't have that on a lot of these other projects we talk about. So that's my pitch.
Okay, Peter. Thank you very much. And uh this is a public hearing so uh we are uh open to comments from the public. Would you like to come up now? Yeah. Yeah. Come right up to the uh podium. Yep. Yep. And give your name and address, please. Hi, my name is Laura Luna and Mr. Wine.
Is that how you pronounce your last name? Vines. Vines. I'm sorry. I'm Colombia. Um I just want to talk about just the piece of exceptions and why exception. Sorry, can you hear me? It's just that we are talking to you through this. Um actually
yes, thank you very much. Thank you. I just want to pointed it out the exception piece um more than the technicality that my husband Dylan and the engineer has been working really really hard to get here. And exceptions
are important and I'm obviously a clear example of that. I have to move from Colombia because it wasn't safe to be there and a judge give me the gift on being this country and it
start again from my family. This house that I was proposing is for my parents. We're not trying to develop to get richer or to sell this and make changing what is already there because I
appreciate what what is Freeman Lake. What that's why I live there and I just want to pointed it out that this project means a lot to me. This is why we keep coming back because it is for my parents
and so showing to my parents that what they went through to have me here it was worth it and that's why we're appealing or I am appealing for an exception for this project. It's all about that. That's all I want to say.
Thank you very much. Uh, anyone else that would like to come up? Emily Baron, 16 Russell Road. Um, so, well, now I'm a little bit more confused because the last meeting you guys said this was for Dylan's pairs, um, not yours. So,
can everybody hear? Sorry, can you guys hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Um, so there was a bit of inconsistency on whose parents and the point of this project is for, but also just as um a bit more background on the confusion of the numbers. If you guys want to, I can give
it to you. Um, Russell Road, it's still a private road, but it used to be fully we didn't used to get any um town services. And at that point, my house 16 Russell Road was four was four because it was the fourth house on the street. Um, but when the town came in and put
sewage in, um, that's when the old owner of what's now for Russell Road, um, the owner themselves paid to put the sewage pipe in. The town didn't. Um, the town came in and reumbered everything so that we could start receiving services, which
is why my house switched from four to 16. And then for some reason, the paperwork just never got updated. Um, but I am asking that, you know, you said 20 minutes ago that you guys are trying to remain consistent and while it's a slightly different project. Um,
realistically, any construction on this road is detrimental to the wildlife and the environment in the area. Unfortunately, my own house had to get renovated a couple years ago and there was a negative impact. I hate to say that, but we really had no choice in
renovating and we had to. Um but there was a huge negative impact on the wildlife between the lake and um the w um the swamp because they go back and forth all the time. So putting something that has no house there and then now putting a home there where there's going to be people all the time is going to
negatively impact the wildlife between the two prop between the two uh wetlands. So I'm just asking that you guys remain consistent in what you've said about not providing a 50- foot waiver. So thank you. Thank you.
Hi, Marc 62 Grutton Road. I just want to say um what's fair is fair. Can you just say your name again? Hi. You're all saying what's fair is fair. Can you say your name again, please? Oh, Marcia Davenport, 62 Grten Road. Got it. So, we're all talking about what's fair
is fair and how the neighbors are seeming upset. But the other neighbor that lived there prior to him that ruined all of the properties and nobody had anything to say about it and he ruined my property. He did all the stuff with verbal approvals and these people
are trying to fix what he did and make it better for everybody. So I don't see what the big problem is if he's trying to fix the the wetlands or fix all the drainage that's coming where Wesley Malawitch ruined Card Path, Russell Road and Graten Road. And when I went to the
town all the time, some of you people were not here for 14 years. I went to the town complaining and I just get, you know, pushed away and told, "Oh, it's all verbal approvals." They came. I would call them to come look at my property and show the damage he was causing. I would talk to the neighbors.
Nobody would say anything about it. So, I just feel it's funny that everyone's complaining now when he's trying to fix all the damage that was done by Wesley Malawix, who nobody said anything about when I went up complaining. So, my property was totally, you know, my
backyard was ruined from all the verbal approvals that he got doing all this stuff and the town didn't do anything. So, I don't understand why they're so hard on these people when they are trying to fix it. So, and nothing happened to Wesley Mowitz for doing it.
Okay, thank you. Uh Dylan Lee, 20 Russell Road. Um thank you, Marca. Appreciate it. Um I understand the consistency argument. Six of the nine houses on Russell Road are within 50 ft of the lake. There's 53 houses that abut Freeman Lake. 29 of
them are within 50 ft. There is nothing extraordinary about if your house isn't 50 feet of the lake, you don't have a lakehouse. Um, you know, I know you all are having trouble policing your sections of the waterfront where there's illegal fishing happening. Imagine what I deal with. I
have 400 ft of the best beachfront on Freeman Lake and it's not fair to me to have to keep kicking these people off and then ending up in these confrontations. And you know, as far as consistency goes, you know, like she mentioned, she said it was a renovation. It was a full build. There was a
foundation there. They dug up that foundation. They moved it 12 ft to the left. They removed six trees and they built the house with a full frost wall foundation and pumped all the water into the wetlands. Every single house on my street has a crawl space foundation that was dug and
they pumped water into the wetlands. They all have solid black top driveways. um if I don't get this waiver and one of those houses burned down, I don't know what that means for them, right? But what I'm proposing is the the least
invasive and the smallest house on the largest lot in the neighborhood. And you know, I really appreciate what you said, Peter, cuz like I understand it's a tall order to get one of these waivers and I've been at this a year and a half. And and I do want to make it very clear
when we came here first, Peter made the suggestion, go to DPW, see if you can work together with this project, provide an easement to solve the drainage on on Grten Road. We got shued out of the office, we came back, is there anything else we can do? Then the suggestion was
prove a betterment for the neighborhood with this project. From there, we fixed the drainage on Russell Road. We pumped out the basins. I spent $3,000. I redid the coverts. We came back with those calculations. It's prepared for a 100red-year storm. But we were assured
that that was going to be sufficient to get the waiverss. And then that goalpost got moved again. And then it was do restoration work for the wetlands, do a vernal poolool study, uh, and then we even took it upon ourselves to shrink
the size of the building. So, you know, we spent a year and a half and and $40,000 to answer the questions that you all are asked of us. And the four Russell Road uh versus whatever the
address is is really just a paperwork error. When we started this project off, Matt told me, "If you don't have a sewer stub, you don't have a project." I called Sharon at DPW. I asked her, "Do we have a sewer stub at the first lot in the beginning of the street?" She said,
"Yes." I said, "Can you give that to me in writing?" She emailed me and I can I can forward you the email. and the subject line is for Russell Road and then there's our lot with the sewer stub. We assumed that the address was for Russell Road. We
didn't present that with any ill intent. Since we learned that I I learned that the water department has one Russell Road, the uh DPW magically changed it in their system from our our last meeting to now from four Russell Road to zero
Russell Road. And National Grid has it as one Crystal Lake. And it's, you know, just frankly, it's this whole paperwork error is not our fault. We just can only go off with the information we have. Um, and you know, with respect to the other project, you know, that was a
subdivision and, you know, engineering that bumped into a 50ft buffer where they had a lot of room to move it. This is a 2.7 acre lot with a residential code 1310, which is residential plan development. And, you know, so it was land intended to be developed. I'm
developing it in in the least invasive way um as possible because I do live in this neighborhood and I I have no interest in destroying it. Thank you. Okay. So, here we are. We have uh had
the public any more public comment? Uh okay. So, I'm thinking that what we need to do because I am reading what I'm hearing from the board that we should do based on some conversations with David up front, we should be doing a straw
poll and take a a a vote because if it gets denied in a straw poll, I know from talking to David that he would like to talk to our town council uh first and because of the timing and especially because it's three weeks to our next
meeting that if we were that we we need to have some time here to get a good advice on how we how we would deny it if we were to deny it. If we approve it in the in the straw poll, then um then we would approve it and we could go
to a to a vote. Now, again, the wetlands protection act does not apply with the 100 foot. Uh it's the it's strictly on the on the town. It doesn't apply to the 50 foot to the 50 foot. Yeah. It's strictly the town bylaw. So
if and I think that's important. We're here to enforce both the state wetland protection act which does not have the 50 foot and there were no comments and right and they didn't weigh in and we're here to enforce our own town
bylaws which has the 50 foot. And I just want to say it again. I don't I I don't know if hardship's the right word but this is unusual. Pet we we've all had our turn. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Um um Does that sound reasonable?
Does that sound reasonable? So, um, we've had all had a chance to discuss. I think you, you know, intent is that we're asking questions of the applicant and we all editorialize with our comments. So, I think we've deliberated if you want to have any more deliberation. Uh, I don't think we want
to close the hearing until we go through this process, right? We we don't want to close it because then you start triggering the clock and that's that's a real challenge where we have three weeks So, I'll take a straw poll and um uh I'd like to ask Chris if you could word it I
think if we word it in the affirmative as uh approving this with as a project if that makes sense. Okay. And that way because yeah when we take a a straw poll as to um to um uh if if uh the member is in
favor of a waiver um to approve the project. We say that. Okay. So, we have a motion for a straw poll from Chris. We don't have to do a all in favor. Uh, we don't have to do a a second clarification. A waiver from what?
The not the re not the redevelopment story. It would be the um Chelmsford wetlands bylaw chapter 187. 50 foot. 50 foot. No build. No. Exactly. 50 foot. Yeah. And we're talking 11 ft. It's 187-5.
limitations on construction and disturbance and it's with respect to uh section A the 50 foot setback. Thank you. Can I ask a question? Sure. The road comes into play.
Does that make that setback any less important or does it to maintain the integrity of the lake wetland
does that road make it less important? Uh well I can just tell you my opinion is I like your opinion that that I I think with the existing
road there that any potential impact you might be worried about from the proposed house um that that the road makes makes it less of a concern that I I think getting it out of the 50 foot no disturb
setback from that rear wetland is far more important uh from an environment enironmental perspective than keeping it out of the 50-foot no disturb setback from the lake. Yeah. In particular, because the road is there, I think there are other issu is issues, other points
you can raise about that as well. The reason why I bring it up is I was thinking about the project we were comparing this to. There was a vernal pool across the street which we didn't take into consideration because of the street. So in the same vein of being
consistent, if that road makes it less uh of an issue for the 50 foot I just I want to be fair and I it's very to this
very it's not a black and white decision to me. Uh, okay. But okay, that's all. Peter, can I partly answer the So, that's why I recommended in the applicant put design some shrubbery along the shoreline because the impact of the road and the
short setback is what it affects critters, both little guys and big guys going back and forth, right? It affects storm water washing junk off of the property into the lake causing the weed problem. That's that's what's that's why there's a setback
for habitat and storm water pollution. The shrubbery around the edge of the lake, that's one of the problems with that lake is that shrubbery absorbs a lot of this stuff. So, it's like a a mitigation is the word that's used. It helps compensate for any impact the road
or the setback might create. So, that's my thinking is that it's a net benefit even though we're we have all the the problems of the setback. Okay. So, we have a a proposed uh motion here in a straw pole manner from Chris that is essentially to approve the
project by waving the the bylaw the 50 foot no build. So, why don't I ask for all in favor of doing that of of approving it? I'm not sure. Yeah. Okay. I would be in favor. I see a hardship. Okay. I haven't seen it in 22 years, but I'd
actually see it this time. So, okay. So, I see two hands going up. Uh, all opposed, but not in favor. Negative. You got to be either or or abstain. Are you going to I'm going to stayain. You I don't know.
You don't know? I I'm I'm looking at this and saying, why can't they flip-flop this and take and move the driveway? I think this is a puzzle that has been completely solved the best it can to
meet uh every possible I I don't think we can get into redesign here, John. That's And it's not our job. It's not our job. All right. I know it's not our job, but I'm just saying I'm looking at some numbers here saying I think it could could have been moved
in the beginning. Yeah. So, Mr. Swank, can I answer that question? This blue line here is the 50 foot 50 foot from the wetland back here. Oh, okay. Okay. So, you can see how it comes here.
Our frontage is actually here. I also like to note that this entire roadway section through here is actually on our property that's going to remain. That's Russell Road.
That doesn't affect the setback, but our setback comes off of this right of way here. Your 20 foot setback. The 20 foot set. Yeah. A lot of the utilities and and and such are not actually under the road. They
they come off of the road. Um and then this mark right here, Mr. Swinson is a um um a sewer easement. We most certainly would not be able to put a building in the sewer easement
either. So that's here. You called this a redevelopment, didn't you? Yeah, but it's not. The house never existed. I'm not Well, it's just redeveloped from it. There's a shed there now. There's a
driveway there. It's you. The the property is used. I'm just I'm not I'm not saying redevelopment as a residential structure. I'm just saying it's being re redeveloped because all of the proposals that we have before us is on a part of the property that's already
been disturbed. There are no trees being cut down for this project or no tree clearing to put this project in. We're on top of uh property that's already been developed. No, I I understand all that. We've been through all that. I I just want to make sure that we're not going to consider
this a redevelopment. It doesn't it doesn't have the any of that information for that. Do you agree with that? It's a development. It's not a redevelopment. That's right. Development. Doesn't matter. I don't think I don't
think that matters, David. Is it? I don't think it matters from a legal perspective for the Does the fact that it was lawn come into play as opposed to from a legal perspective? just should it
come into play in our decision that it's um well I think I think from the perspective of wildlife habitat value I would say certainly could um we we you know we know that there's a vernal pool in back there or or we strongly suspect
I don't know whether the consultant actually they the consultant did look um it's potential it's listed as a potential um so let's let's just say for the sake of discussion it is certainly looks like one to I like to show you where that
potential is. So, we're here. Mhm. That potential is located over here. Okay. Okay. But but I mean that that may it still may vary very well be what's called vernal pool habitat. But in any
case, um vernable critters do not live in one. So, we know that that's not a plan habitat for vulnerable critters and that was a that's been a big issue on other projects the commission has seen. So, that's not an issue. And in fact,
what's being proposed to to I think um restore trees on the property actually will make more vernal pool or upland habitat for vernal pool critters. Um, I think I think where the the lawn I think
the only potential place where the lawn might come in is actually nesting habitat for turtles. And in that sense, it might actually be better not to h not to restore up here. Um, I think you're
proposing to replant that, right? Or reveate that. It might it I think it would actually be better to turn that into a turtle nesting area. Um al although I mean as far as I know there's no evidence that turtles nest out there.
Um but you know it wouldn't hurt to to leave an area out there where turtles could nest. Right. Okay. That's a detail to work out after we get through the current issue. So I'm unclear where we stood here because we asked for eye votes to
approve this and I think I counted two. Yeah. Two in favor and one. Did you vote? But then I didn't see any any anybody I said and who's against and nobody was raising their hands. So I'm I'm not sure if that was where that was. Maybe we should try it
again. That make sense, Chris? Sure. All right. Let's see. um the same the same question which is um do we want to so it's either you're approving it or you're abstaining or
saying no. Those are your options and you got to say something. So the question that Chris posed was would you approve this project with the exemption to the 50 foot u bylaw no build zone. So the so that's the question. So everybody,
if we approved it, they still have to go to the board of appeals for a setback. Correct. That's correct. Yep. Yeah. There's another significant hurdle. Uh yeah. Okay. Uh all in favor? I'm going to vote. Yes. I
I'main and all against I'm going to abstaining to abstain. Okay. I'm sorry. Ally, will you approve? We had five in favor, Mark. I'm sorry. Were you in favor? I was. You were. Okay. All right. So, um,
Vivian, we had five in favor and we had two abstain. So, that means I think we could do a a legitimate vote. Is that right, David? If if people vote the same way. Yeah. If we vote consistently. How just practice the same ground. So,
well, so well put, you're working hard. I will say I have gone back and forth on this from day one. Um from day one I did not see it early on and um I'm really still very very struggling because I am
really against the giving up on the 50 foot. But um there's there's just a lot of improvement here. I will say it's sort of unstated here because it's not in our it's not in our realm. putting a I've I've driven by. Putting a
house that close is unbelievable to me. It's Yeah, it's I just stand there and look and I say I can't believe that a house would go there. It's just I and I recognize there's 50some houses or whatever all along there. I totally get it. But um I
have a very hard time with it. I from our strictly from our point of view and if I could add something um because I have had some uh experience with denials. So uh and in in my experience that I think it' be very difficult to
uphold or have upheld under appeal the denial based simply on the 50 foot no disturb setback provision of the bylaw. In other words, if you if you write a denial and says, you know, ba based on the on, you know, violation of the
50-foot uh no build provision uh set setback provision of the bylaw, the project is hereby deny. My experience is that that would not stand up under appeal. that you'd have to be able to point to specific interests that the
commission is supposed to protect that would be adversely impacted by um the project. Yeah. And that's hard very hard, you know, especially in view of the restoration that's being proposed. I in just in my opinion, I'm not an attorney,
but again, I do have some experience in this. you you've seen some some denials and appeals uh and and and I've written some that I've been told to write that I knew would not uh be upheld. But in any case, that's that's just my two cents worth
with regard to Could I ask a question? The uh the building's 39 ft from the uh water edge. Is that correct? Uh yes, that's correct. What's the height of that building going to be? Um something like 30 feet, isn't it?
It's tall. It's tall. 32 feet. Okay. Will that have any negative impact on the uh wildlife on the edge of the water with shadows and stuff? Um given given this given the size of
the lake, I I would say um zero to none or I would say minimal to none. Um, I I I think based on my knowledge of the lot, um, again, I I I think again what you would particularly care about is
that if there were turtles nesting on the property, it would it would be, you know, the angle of the sun. And yeah, if if there were turtles currently nesting in in here, what would then become the back of the house. Yeah, I think it might very well be shaded, but again, I
think there would there would be enough room remaining on the lot to be able to have a nesting area that would work. Okay. Just might be right. I respect your opinion. That's why I asked. Yeah. Okay. The only thing
that bothers me is is this going to open a can of worms with other ADUs? This is not an ADU. But if somebody comes along with the lake and says, "You did it here.
Now we're going to do an ADU." Okay. How many We got Baptist Pond. We got Crystal Lake. We got all sorts of pieces of property all around town that this might we could be opening a
can of worms. I'm just stating I I agree. If we could live by if you we you live by this it's why we have a 50 foot no build. I agree. I John I've given this a lot of thought in my personal I've given it a lot of thought. I agree with you. I agree with you
completely. But the pressure from this ADU thing is we're going to have this kind of application. This is going to be our life for the next five years. people trying to not no it it it it won't be our life if we strictly say
50 feet. Okay, it's all about the ADU thing and the structure and everything else and the wording that was presented to me early on that I had a bad feeling about. And
that's how I started with a bad feeling about this. I I'm still going to abstain no matter what. If the FDU doesn't grant you any exemptions from this, right? But I'll also just add if the if the 50-foot no disturb setback were to
be upheld under appeal and again in my opinion I think that would be a real challenge. Just my opinion we can speak with town council if you want. That's why I asked you about the road and what you have to have a reason that goes back to the wetland.
Yeah. Of why you're denying it. You'd have to be able to point to specific interests. So be adversely impacted. Right. So if we denied it, they go to court, it gets approved, you're going to end up with this, right?
Right. What gets approved? Would you lose the mitigation? Well, I'm saying it to D. Well, let me let me clarify. F of all um that you would you wouldn't deny this under the Wellness Protection Act. No, that that would be a waste of everyone's
time, right? So yeah, under the bylaw, the appeal would go to superior court, right? And um I think the superior court would say ask that very question. What what are the imp what what are the interests
specifically point to the interests that the commission is supposed to protect that are adversely impacted by this project? And you know and and again I think the judge would right away say Beny's proposing 4,000 square feet of
restoration or mitigation. I just think that would be very difficult to argue uh for the 50ft no disturb to be upheld. Would you build a different house there if you didn't have to if you weren't
uh if that 50 foot wasn't where it was? Would you build a different Is that the house you sat on building? Yeah, sorry. You have to Yeah, I'm sorry. You designed it around the 50 foot, right? Basically. Yeah. I mean, we're just I'm
trying to respect the bylaw, but I'm just working with the spaghetti, right, of line like you mentioned, you know, flipping the driveway in the house. We had done that and then realized the sewer easement would be in the way. So, I mean, we're just playing a game of inches and
um this was the path of least resistance. So, I'm I am married to this design. Okay. All right. Then I think what I'm saying the reason why I'm asking if you went if you went along with the
waiver based on the improvements he's making would it be common sense to wave a little bit of the con to square up the the house rather than have this funny banana shaped thing.
I'm just saying if you're going to wave something would you wave a little bit more? Make sure you get home safe. I No, I'm just Good question. Construction easier, but I did it that way to get it out of the 50 foot. If I
can square it, I can mod it and there's no control. Here's why I'm asking. Here's why I'm asking. And I'm sorry we're going so late with this, but this is I I spent a lot of time looking at this and worrying about this and not trying I try to be fair to people, but consistent is that
10 years ago we had a project come in and it would came down to a three feet setback. And what happened was the person had come so many times through our meetings that he was scared he wasn't going to get it passed. He'd spent so much money, which isn't our
issue, but he had spent so much money. It was it was on him that he went along with what I voiced very loudly was ridiculous. They There was a couple members that pushed the issue of cutting a corner off the guy's garage, 3 foot by
three foot corner off the guy's garage just to stick to that three-foot number, which made no sense at all. It was stupid. I m I made it known that I didn't appreciate it. They did it out of spite for this guy and that house was
built with a that that it's going to go forward to you know to 20 years from now somebody else buys a house they're stuck with a garage with a corner cut off it because of something stupid that we've done. So, are we going to be
if you if the board waves some of the 50 foot on the front, if you could get the board of appeals to go with their waiver, would we be smart? Would be decent per people to the applicant to square off
the back couple feet on each end to make it instead of going from five foot up and I don't want to design this whole thing for him, but It's common sense. I hear you, but I think I think we have to vote for what we've got in front of us. I think that's where we're at. I appreciate it.
Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm going to ask let's see based on the previous straw poll. I think we have close our hearing. We need to first then close the hearing and then and then vote.
Are we ready to close the hearing? I'm I think so. We don't have any more there. There might be only one one point to consider with regard to closing the hearing. Um that does the board want to review a draft order conditions?
Um that might be a good idea given poly issues and everything. So so because because um you don't meet again for three weeks. If you close tonight you're going to you're not going to get the opportunity to review a draft.
If you keep it open and I can draft something that then you can review at the next meeting. Okay. Why don't we do that? Question question. So everything that you would put in the order is not necessarily on these plans. In other words, if everything you're thinking
were in the plans, but then by approving the plans, you've got essentially your order. But it sounds like there's you've got some other conditions. Well, I I have to think about it and one one that one that I thought of um that I mentioned earlier in the meeting is need a work sequence, but if we keep the
hearing open, you can provide that. Um and again, I'd also I'd also um I'd like to see um well, I mentioned showing the the the set the 39 foot set back from the lake on the on this plan. I uh
I don't know and and and I asked this earlier. Do you address do you address the issue of groundwater um at all? Um do you talk about groundwater? Do you do uh did you me did you mention that you did the test? Is that anywhere in the information you
submitted? Um no, but I can include it. Okay. And and then at least you know some sort of a um a draft a dewatering plan. I mean, ultimately that will probably depend on the contractor how they want to do it, but um so so I mean I'll think if
there's anything else that would um would go into the order. Um but but I but I think ba basically it it w would be um yeah to to approve this plan. I mean there may be certain details we need to think about um with with um
putting putting that agreement for for maintenance of the storm water um you know there I think we want to see a draft of that uh I definitely de restriction draft yeah um because I think I think that's definitely going to be should be
referenced in the order conditions so does it make sense to let you work this through the applicant and keep the hearing open so we can look at those is that what I'm hearing well Yeah, I mean among other reasons because I realize there's a pressure to close. So I think that's I think that's the
right approach. I will caution though. I wouldn't rule out that somebody could change their vote in 3 weeks. I'm I'm I'm just putting it out there. You know, I'm you saw a lot of back and forth here, but I think I think this is still the right
approach. Three weeks to think about it. That's that's the problem. And and think be thinking about conditions, special conditions you want to have in the order and forward those to me. Is that helpful to those that abstained
or should we just get it done? I'm abstaining for the future. That's my opinion. I'm abstaining for the Baptist Pond, the rest of uh Freeman Lake, Mil Pond, ADUs.
We're going to have them. That's why I'm abstaining and that's my why. Okay. All right. So, Carl, I move that we continue this hearing until our next meeting, which is October 14th. Motion
from Chris with with with draft permit conditions being drafted and sent to us. Our is going to prepare those conditions ahead of time. He'll get them out. He'll get them to the uh proponents as well so that we can have everything ready. Okay. Close the hearing. We come back.
Do I have a second? I heard Peter first. All right. Peter Peter second. All in favor? Hi. Hi. I I just wanted to say we really appreciate the commission's time on this matter and we look forward to seeing you in three weeks and we'll get we'll reach out to Mr. Kum.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [Applause] Okay. Thank you. Wow. Okay. Not easy. That was not easy. Yeah. We're gonna take a fivem minute break here. Recess.
Five minute recess. Okay. So, we are now at uh the notice of intent for progeneration energy at 152 Steman Street. August 12th uh was the last continuation. It has been continued
a number of times. Yes. And David, I know you have some new information. Well, an update. Yes. Um, so I had a long conversation yesterday with the applicant. Um, one of the principles of this uh progeneration uh
company. Um, I told them that, you know, the commission wants to see a clear intent that they're they're going to proceed with this project. And if that's the case, you need you need to pay the fee to D and you need to notify Butters.
So he he completely insisted absolutely insisted that you know going to send out the checks today not notify abutters um and uh be here on the 28th to uh present the project um there's
20th of October 20th of October yes so two more meetings so he's requested a continuence or approve a continuence to October 28th um in in the meantime he he has agreed to the Weston and Samson Samson peerreview
proposal which he had initially um not agreed to but um so um and Wesson and Samson has been given uh authorization to proceed with their peer review and so I would expect that that they they would
have um they' be able to propose or present their uh report on the 28th or at least be very very well along um in uh in, you know, drafting their report. Um, so I I I think I mean he insists he
understood those conditions. Um, and that that's, you know, based on that that I said the commission would probably grant the continuence to October 28th. I'm okay with one more chance, but it's last chance. That's my thought. If he if
you talk to him because you hadn't you had not talked to the applicant prior. No, I had not. So you have this from him? Yes. Yep. Direct. Directly from chair. I move for a last chance continuence to October 28th for this hearing. Okay. Motion from Chris.
Second. Second from Bill. All in favor? I. I. Okay. Motion pass unanimous. Okay. Last chance on that one. Otherwise, we're going to we're going to pull that one. And I wouldn't be uh I wouldn't be so generous with the reimbursing fees like we are with the
previous one. No. No wouldn't make that offer to you. No. Okay, we are done with our regulatory session. So now we are at the continual business. So we are update on Freeman Lake parcel boundary surveys.
Uh update David. Um, so, uh, I think I had mentioned at the last meeting that the surveyor mentioned that there are these markers called witness posts that that could be put, um, at the lot corners that go underwater sometimes.
And, uh, then I um, I sent I sent him another uh, email asking him, well, is this something is this something that the commission would do or you would do? He said he said that they could um they could do it of course at an additional cost. So I asked them to to provide a
price co price quote for um ordering and uh installing the markers. So I I was hoping I would have it by tonight. Don't have it yet. Um I think I certainly think that's something the commission could look at. I guess my main concern
would be but let's without me mentioning any names let's just suppose for the sake of discussion that we pay for have for um you know purchasing in them and installing them and the next day some one of the neighbors goes out and you
know gets rid of them um tear tears them apart throws them away because they think they're an eyesore um you know I'm just I would just be concerned That's what you know you're facing. So you don't have to make a decision on that.
For the purpose of what we were trying to accomplish, do we do we actually need those? No. No. No. Because those those two lock corners will be um marked by rebar. Um but I think I think it was
the ones that we're concerned with. Yeah. Yeah. So, I think I think it was at a previous meeting a while back, Wanda had said, "Well, on my property, um I I you know, where where the the lock corners can go underwater, I have I have them marked."
Well, I mean, people will respect hers because she's she lives there. She lives there. She's a private property owner, but I'm not sure that's the case with the town. I think you're right on. Yeah. Yeah. But you think about it. Okay. I think anything that goes under water, excuse me, is going to be
distributed or the ice it's going to move it eventually. Well, supposedly these can I mean I'll clarify that with the um uh surveyor, but my understanding is they're very flexible and can stand up to that. But but you know, the flip side of that is
that they they can be removed easily. I think if we can use the granite bounds that are in the in there now to for the purpose we put them in there for Yeah. I don't think we need to spend more money on I'm I'm inclined that way. Additional things. Okay.
We can come back to it down the road too if we decide that's what we need to do. So that okay everybody okay with that? Okay. Yeah. Okay. I guess you have your direction. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um,
and that being said, we still need to figure out how to address the situation that started this whole thing, but we're not going to go there right this minute tonight. So, um, next up is land management update on the conservation sites. So, um, Chris,
anything at Crooked Spring? Anything? It's looking good. Yeah. Okay. Good out there. Okay. Uh, Mark Redwing, we talked about earlier. Red Wing, we're uh hopefully soon we have some fences being changed out there. It' be nice. Yeah. Get some great help from a lot of
people. Yeah. I'll say I was over there checking out the fence area and I I'll make a comment. Um if you walk through Redwing Farm, it's a it's a nice place. It's a beautiful place. Fix up the fence. That'll be really nice. But there's a path that
goes through the back and comes out onto the rail trail. And I went out there. there. I hadn't been there in quite a while. There's a lot of Japanese notweed there. Oh my goodness. It's a whole alley of it. It's like, okay, that's not good. And you turn the corner and you get out to the rail trail and I'm It's a
beautiful day and there's people biking by and walking by. I'm going, this is this is really great. You know, this is great. People should be able to just come right off of that trail. And I turn around and look at our entrance and it looks like hell. It doesn't look good. It just there's a old rotten kiosk.
There's a sign that says no parking. It's like not welcoming. So, I think we have an opportunity to do something that like, hey, because people go by there all day long and they probably just never never look. And it's a nice it's a nice park that you can you can utilize.
So, we'll get some scouts to clean it up or or do something and uh and do some do some things. So it just it's funny when you go somewhere and you have a different you know you take a different look at it and you suddenly go oh and also the picnic tables that are there have been there I don't know how many
years it's the uh women of Chumsford I think it's called group something like that and they donated them there's a sign on them but they're in they're in not the greatest shape and I'm not sure they're repairable so much as we just need to get some again maybe some scouts or something to build some new some new
picnic tables and and replace them. So anyway, we have some scout scout opportunities, project opportunities. Unfortunately, we have those everywhere all over town. So, um Peter, anything on Thanksgiving? Uh I have some updates, but I'll let you talk to it because I've
Well, you're doing all the work. So, um, uh, the only update I want to talk about, and I just want to say it quickly, we've got a news article in the town manager, uh, newsletter coming out in a week about every every thing that was done there. Um, that was written
largely by our new volunteers, Christy Wood and, uh, Linda, with input from the residents and and others. So, I'm hoping that's a continuing series that we use the town manager newsletter to help advocate for our values and
maybe stimulate the next group. So, that's a conversation we'll be having again. And then the big work is the well the dog question and the trees that you let. Yeah. So, we we did do some work to remove the Norway saplings and the trees, five trees from that site right
by the by the native pollinator garden. Uh that was in the la this morning and Saturday. So, it really makes a difference. There's some birch trees in there that suddenly pop because it's like, "Wow, those are nice looking birch trees, and you don't even see them till you get rid of the Norway maples." And
it's really nice. It looks good. And and if I could just add that, what I love about that is the the residents that were involved like Karen and Robin and Jeff identified these invasive plants as restricting the growth of the birches and other native stuff. And
there's a whole plan that really the residents pushing it are are are leading the charge with some help. Yeah, it's great working with that wonderful crew. Yeah, they're they're a really good group to work with. But that being said, there was a dog incident again uh over there and it was with a
young child and um it just terrified the child. There were three large dogs running loose and no harm other than terror. And um I would like us to think about not just think about I I want to get um I think one thing we could do is
buy a bunch of those sandwich signs that say um dogs must be leashed. We have signs on our kiosk. Nobody looks at them. But if we had a sandwich sign and yeah, they're going to get stolen and kicked over and destroyed and all that, but but we got to put something out
there because people just don't pay attention to it. And we keep getting these complaints on our sites. This is a town bylaw. This is not a conservation commission, although I think we would still probably have that, but it's a town bylaw. And um I we've had too many of these lately. We've had a number of
these these problems. So if if you guys are okay with it, we'll come up with some money. We'll come up with some sandwich signs that we can put down there right like right as you're walking in so it's like, "Oh, this is different." And get some attention. In the end, you know, people will still
walk by and let their dogs run loose, I'm sure, but we need to do something. And um this is just not fair because there are people that won't use our properties because of this problem. And that's not fair. That's not fair.
So, by the way, agree. And I feel strongly enough that I would advocate a sign that is more specific that says closed to off leash dogs. Be a little bit more direct. Yeah, we could come up with something.
Yeah. Okay. But we can, you know, we can talk about what it looks like, but um I I understand the problem there may I'm against sign pollution. We just got Yeah, I know. But at the same time, that's kind of why I'm thinking the the sandwich sign because you can put it in,
it'll dis, you know, maybe take it out for a few weeks, put it back in for a few weeks. Um, see if we can change some behavior a little bit through that. But, um, yeah, I know. I know. I I I agree. But I'm reminded of the uh tree chopping at Russell Mill. We put
signs up and it did take a while, but that got people thinking about it and I think prevented it from continuing, I think. So, I mean, I agree, Mark, but you know, when you go to Thanksgiving Forest, there's a ton of signs, which
well, all the kiosks are loaded with signs. Well, there's more signs than that, but I don't know how to get away from it, you know. I don't know. You know, you know, ADA parking and, you know, the rules and the I remember years ago that we were even the uh one of the other commissioners,
we were against even people dropping off benches. No plaques in the benches. You can put a bench there, but no plaques on it. Yeah. So, we went back that far with sign pollution. I'm trying to get it back that way. Yeah. And but again, I mean, if people are
going to not be able to use the property because they're afraid of getting bitten, I mean, that's what we're talking here. I've been accosted. I'm sure you guys have, too. You know, I mean, I was literally attacked by a dog. That one didn't bite me, but he was all over me. And he
wasn't he wasn't friendly. Yeah. Stupid question. Have we consulted animal control about any of this? With what? Have we consulted animal control or as the town consulted animal control about any of this? I know there's been a change. He's leaving. Somebody else is coming in. They just hired a new acco. But
Peter, did you talk to him or Well, I did, but apparent there was a previous incident at Thanksgiving forest where our land steward Jeff about a month ago or two months ago got response from animal control and I'm not not exactly sure what they did to be honest, but Okay. Um, but that's a great idea.
Maybe it's worth another try again. I know they're switching people around, but maybe it's worth another try of some kind. Yeah, something. And there's fines associated with off leash dogs. Yeah, I'm sorry. There are fines associated with off leash dogs.
The problem is getting the acco and catching the people that are doing that. Right. Right. That's You can write a ticket, but you got to catch them. But I if if heaven forbid, you know, there is a serious injury because someone was bitten by an off
leash dog, the town could be sued and will be sued up the Eiffel Tower in a heartbeat. That happened in Carile last year. I don't know about another dog was hurt uh killed, I think. I think it was killed. Yeah. Well, that was just a dog. That wasn't a human, but that could be. Okay. Anyway, okay, enough.
Yeah, but I I I hear all of you. Yeah, it's not Let's keep Let's keep it a happy place for everybody. State law says the owner of the dog that causes the problem is the one that's held absolutely liable. Yep. So, they better have house insurance. You sound like you know something about animal control.
Did you know where dogs can run off leash in town? Maybe. Russell Mill, John, anything new at Russell Mill. Been busy up there. Yeah. Okay. Bill Oakill and Deep Brook. Uh there's a tree at uh Deep Brook that we're going to cut down some of the
volunteers. And I went over to Oakill and it looked like the ATV has not been out there in a while. So that sign might still up. Speaking of signs, the sign was still sign up. Can you take the sign down now? Yeah. No, it I change it. I did not see new tire tracks. Um No.
Yeah, it looked it was good. I can say the cranberry bogs fine. The Warren Pole. We're still working with Oxbow. Man, they are they don't move fast to get the invasive stuff going, but hopefully then right as far as I know is in good shape. I haven't been there in a
couple weeks, but Amy hasn't said anything. So, all good. So, next thing on our agenda is the Falltown meeting warrant article 34, which is about the culus property. So, um let's talk about that for a few minutes. Um
we'll talk about it. I'll show you a couple of pictures at some point. So, just as background, I'm going to go through a little bit of background and um and where we are on this. So, we bought the property, the town using CPA money two years ago and uh it was
approved to be purchased uh under the use of open space and um because of its CPA money, it means you have to get a conservation restriction, a perpetual restriction. uh used to be known as conservation easement and um we are
working that it is a legal document describing the allowable and prohibited uses of the of the property. Um and uh it will take a while to get that developed. Uh when the property was purchased there was a task force formed to identify suggested uses of the
property. Um the town um that meeting that task force uh met early 2024 for about three to four or five months something like that. Meanwhile, the DPW worked to, let's call it, develop the site. Um, they had a house removed. They
cleaned up an awful lot of other structures and uh vehicle debris. They uh did a lot of work in the fields. And then also a volunteer group sprung up from that task force to develop trails on the property, and they did a great job um doing a lot of improvements and
maintenance along with what the DPW did to to develop that site. In May, a year ago, the select board heard the suggested uses of the site from the task force and a report was submitted with the recommendations. Talk about that in a couple minutes. um the
town manager and the select board asked us the conservation commission to take on responsibility for the site including um most importantly I think from their point of view the uh getting the CR uh developed u because it is a fair amount of work and uh we have been working that
mostly uh David and I have been working that a lot of we have put in a lot of time on that in the last year um and we are making progress um but it does take a while Um we um one of the things about a CR is
that it is not a land management plan. It is a um um we'll likely put in there that there in the document that there will be a land management plan, but that would be separate from the from the CR. The CR again describes what is allowed
and what's prohibited. So for example, prohibited would be you can't build a hockey rink here. You can't build a school here. It's open space. you can't put a building here. Um, it's open space. So, that's kind of the prohibited. The allowable would be things like, you know, we're going to
allow agriculture. We're going to allow walking. It allowing doesn't mandate what we will do. It it says it's allowable. We may not allow it. We may or, you know, the town may decide not to do certain things for 20 years and then 20 years from now say we really need a
garden and because it's allowable in the CR, we'll put in a garden. Um so um the CR does not mandate what we will do. It just mandates what's allowable and what's prohibited. And I think that's important for people to understand.
Um so we have um a lot of work that has been done on that site. Uh oh, let me go through what the um the task force had their recommendations. Uh they made a they wrote a report and they made the recommendations of the site um of what
to be used for that property. And again, there's four parcels of land. Um, two of them are adjacent to each other, south of Route 495 on Hunt Road. One is just north of 495 on par on U Pinehill Road.
Um, and another one is north of Pinehill Road um uh which is the main parcel of land. So, we're going to mostly focus on that on that top parcel. But um so their recommendations included a native plant
meadow uh on that site and John you were on the committee so you know I appreciate the work you guys put in on that and uh so we all agree wholeheartedly having a native plant meadow on that on that site. Um the other big discussion point in that uh I
I remember uh I listened and watched I I was at one meeting the wildlife rescue facility. So this is specifically the new house wildlife rescue facility and um they very much wanted to put that there but as I said earlier under the
CPA act with open space that's not allowable. I think they were given some incorrect information from the town council at the time, but in the meantime over the summer last year, we had new town council who gave us an opinion that
said you would not be able to put at least not without almost insurmountable obstacles to overcome. You know, in theory it's possible, but it would be a huge amount of money and getting the whole town to vote for millions of dollars and finding equal land and it
getting the state to vote and it's like that's not happening. So, that just was not really a reasonable um thing unfortunately for um we we all strongly support that mission um and would love to see that uh bu business uh that uh
that operation stay here in town. I know they're getting squeezed in their space, but um that was a recommendation, but um we can't agree with that just because of the the legal part of that community garden space. Um if there's demand in
the future, we agree that would be a good use of that um in that site. A sledding hill, we think that's a great thing as well. An event area that was not very well defined what that meant and what that looks like. We have events
um on sites on properties in town. Um if uh I know from watching I was there at the meeting that when this was presented it was mentioned that it would be nice to have an event area. In fact, Mike even said something about having a having a a play uh with the midnight um
I don't know, one of the one of the Shakespeare plays or something. Um but it was very vague. it it wasn't specifically determined what that looked like. It was really really vague. Um so we have uh we have events on many
properties in town. Um we have open space all over town. Um but that was that was not well defined in that report but you know that's one of the things that was mentioned in there. Uh but the idea being um uh familyfriendly uh area.
Finally, it was agriculture um to have that uh a use of agriculture and um we have agreed with two of the parcels being used for different agricultural licenses um which we approved earlier this year and I anticipate we'll
continue to do that over the years. I don't see any any reason to change that. And finally, walking trails. It was interesting. I I know everything everybody was in favor of walking trails, but it wasn't really explic explicitly stated as a recommendation, but I know that the task force um
definitely agreed to that because they were working on developing them and they did a nice job on the trails that are there now. So, those were the recommendations. Um the area that we're a little bit not completely aligned on is this event area. So, I want to talk
about that um uh a little bit here. So on this uh different pictures. So this is the parcel just north of Pineh Hill Road um which is just beyond Weston Nursery
going up the hill on the right. And this was where all the real work was being done. The the parcel just below the blue line is the uh the hay field that the parley uh farm operation is hanging that field on the on the lower one. But uh
but that's the the uh that's the parcel on the top uh that we're talking about. The big the whole blue area, the event area would be I'm sorry for my artwork, but it's essentially that yellow. It's roughly that yellow circle, which is um
a subset of the 25 acre parcel. And if you really go down and go to the next page, David, we're going to whip through these pictures. Um, this is uh getting closer to that to that circular area that I showed on the previous one, the
yellow area. So, this is if you click one more, I think. Uh, yeah. So, now we're seeing you can see the Pineh Hill Road at the bottom. You can see the entrance. You can see that we have uh the parking area and we have a vernal
pool. Uh, it's not certified. I think we should be able to get it certified. We have what we're all very familiar with now, a vernal pool buffer area that's around that vernal pool. And we have the So, yeah, the entrance, the parking area. There is a a meadow on the right,
and there's a wetland to the right of that uh meadow on the on the the the far side. I don't know if that's east or whatever. And then at the top is what we will call the left field. Um, which is approximately an acre. Um, and this is a very rough calculation with my GIS
skills and Google Earth skills, but it's roughly in the area of 1 acre. So, if I think if you go one more page, David, um, we have a lot of plans that we've been talking about and working on and in process for this for this part of the
property besides, you know, some other areas, but I'll go through them. First thing is on the top left, we're looking at putting a split rail fence in. Speaking of that earlier today, um that split rail fence would delineate the vernal pool buffer from any other part
of the site and keep it so that we can make it very easy for anybody maintaining that site that they're not disturbing that that buffer area as we know we need to protect that. Um at the bottom, um oh, I thought I put the sign in.
Is it Can you scroll down just a little bit, David? Yeah, there it is. Granite sign right there on the bottom. Um, we are talking with one of the local granite sign vendors to get a quote and we should be able to get that hopefully this fall. Uh, Coois Farm sign. It would
be right at the uh right near just to the right of the entrance. There's a couple of new trees that got planted in that area. So, it would be right there. Uh, we are waiting in another week or two for this. We think the Boy Scout will the uh Eagle Scout will put that
kiosk in place right there. Um we want to get those concrete pads removed. This is a former cow barn that uh it really detracts from the appearance there. It's doesn't look very good. Um and uh even though one of the I I I was there
Saturday with many members of the family of the coolest family and one of them was very attached to the to the concrete pads because that's the last remnant of the farm and the barn and uh the rest of them weren't weren't with them on that. So it was really kind of interesting.
You might have to get historical permission to do that. Yeah. Well, I don't you preserve like No, I don't think we are. I don't know. I don't think so. But it was interesting to hear that that point of view. It was kind of like everybody else looked at him like he was like, "What? Preserve a piece for that person."
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, actually, one of them said, "Can we get Can we keep some of the the um the I think there was some uh bricks." Of course, take them all. We'll deliver them. The antique ones go. Huh? It's the antique ones. Yeah. Well, these No, these aren't
there's nothing. No. So, yeah, there's still there's still some work to some cleanup to do. There's some uh I I'll get into that. Um then we're also looking the same Eagle Scout is looking at putting in a couple of picnic tables. There is one there, the one to the left in that left field area,
but we're looking at getting a couple more picnic tables from the Eagle Scout. He's he's got a a bundle, I guess you a bundle deal for us with a kiosk and two picnic tables. So, hopefully that's going to come pretty soon. Uh and then as I said in the right side there's a right meadow
and the wetlands if you look at the very top and all around that more or less all around that polygon shape uh is stone walls and those stone walls are beautiful when they're exposed. they're not exposed that well right now. There's
a lot of invasives. So, we are very uh enthusiastic and um happy to work on getting those stone walls cleared out and uh work on getting that done and make it look a lot better because the uh the the invasive plants that are
blocking them uh it's just not it's not good. David, is there another slide I'm trying to remember? Yes. Okay. Um, so on that same parcel, this is roughly what we are mowing now. So we
are mowing that area, which is about a quarter of an acre. Um, along with some more mowing down in the front. Um, how often do we mow it? Uh, when it needs to so that it looks good. Um, it's it over the summer it was every two to three weeks when it was
really growing and then once August hit it kind of died. So who is actually doing that? I've mowed it. Bill's mowed it. A couple other neighbors have been mowing it. The um the stewards, the Openorfs have been mowing it. Um so we, you know, we're we're um trying to keep up with it. Um some other people, too.
Yeah. And some other Yeah. Okay. Steve. Yep. Ste. Uh he did one time with the uh with the uh around the edge with the brush hog. Yep. So um so and then we're cutting uh trail paths with the mowers through that
field. Um, we've brushhoged some trail paths a little bit on the right and I think there's a good opportunity to do more there. Um, what we're having a disagreement on with this um, article 34 is they want to mow the whole area. So, click the next button or the next page
and um, that is this um, we left that area to meadow in this past year. It was cut last year. This year we left it to meadow and we are planning to brush cut it. that is um you know you want to manage your meadow and and and brush cut
to get the invasives out and I think we can still make that happen this year. You generally want to wait till your nesting season is over. You want to wait till your pollinator season is over and then you and that's generally October, November time frame. And so we're hoping to get to that in the next month or two
and make that happen. And that also helps with access to a lot of the uh stone walls to help with invasive removment. But what's really important to us at least from my point of view is um and I uh I think most of us is that we are supporting biodiversity and we're
and supporting habitat for um critters for pollinators for birds. I can tell you I've been out there. Um the meadow on the right is really dense with um golden rod and a few other there's definitely some invasives in there, but
the birds were crazy over the summer. Um just amazing. The bugs, the dragonflies, it was really something to see. On the left side, it was less dramatic, but you could see a a fair amount of stuff there. I saw bluebirds. Almost certainly there were bluebirds. We saw goldfinch.
We saw a lot of a lot of other uh uh nature wildlife. A lot of pollinators. And a lot of pollinators. Yeah, definitely a lot of pollinators. All that being said, there's a lot of invasives in that area. There's buckthornne, which we need to get at.
There's buckthornne, which is a a shrub or a small tree, and we need to get to the buckthornne. And um there's a lot of um bittersweet in that area. There's bittersweet all over trees which of course you we need to get the bittersweet out of the trees but there's
a lot of bittersweet in the fields as well and it just it does a number on there. So I think what um my thought is we can allow more cutting of that area more frequently cutting it because it's
bittersweet and the more you cut it the better you off. I am looking at I'll I'll tell you I am looking at and having a conversation with a company that does prescribed burns. We're a long way from having that happen, but a prescribed burn is another way of managing uh
invasive uh problems on a property. There's a long way before we would ever get there. It's not cheap. It's um but but that's that's a possible way and a lot of places I know Sbury Valley has done that on some of their properties uh
to manage to manage a meadow to manage a field. Um I I have my doubts but I because I think we could cut um and and manage that. Um I can tell you that u this this property is really a nice property. There's a lot there's a lot of
woods. There's the open fields. We have a nice open area in the front. I don't have really a big problem with expanding it a fair amount and making some of that top left um cut more than it is now. And this may or may not be to scale. Um I
think we can work something out. Um I'm not in favor of this article. It by the way the article that is there is a I think it's called a advisory article. It's non-binding. So, you know, we we we need to um you know, listen to the to
the town and listen to the neighbors and listen to the people. But I can tell you the coolest family, a couple of them that I talked to said they like it the way it is now. And um so, you know, but but um but we have a different different opinion from some other folks that are sponsoring the the article. So, uh we
need to figure out how to get to that. I don't think it should be resolved. Personally, I don't think it should be resolved in a town meeting article. I think we should be able to resolve it um discussing it. So that that's kind of the the crux of where we're at. Um we we would support any kind of activities on
that site, events, um if somebody wanted to go there with a a sky view. There's a fair amount of room right there in that smaller area. If we expanded it some um with more cutting there, you know, I don't I can't imagine that a sky night sky viewing group is more than eight or
10 people or something like that. It can't be, you know, 30 people, 50 people. I I Well, well, and let's just say for the sake of discussion that that it were mowed on October 15th, you know, once annually, you know, that's still what I mean, moving into the fall and winter,
that whole area would still be open. Kind of cold for night for night sky viewing in the winter, but I don't I don't know how that how that works. Some people love to be out cold. That's true. And it's it's clearer skies for sure. Um and then the the field to the right which isn't really showed here
is the meadow is and that one um I am absolutely in favor of cutting some more trails in there so that we can um have you know more use of that. But that one's a really nice meadow the way it is now. And in fact to me that meets what the what the uh task force recommended which
is you know a plant meadow. I think it the way it is now is good. It could be much better with the right attention. Um, we've talked, David, you and I have talked, um, and I think Bill about getting some nature assessments done, whether it's botanical, wildlife, so we can kind of figure out logically based
on what's there now and what would make sense for um, future land management. So, sort of the basis for a land management. I mean, we we know there we know now given your observations, there are birds nesting. Yes. in in that I saw I saw a nest in the middle of the Yeah.
of that meadow in the in the shrubs. I mean that's that's certainly an important consideration. Yeah. Among others. Um what else did I want to say? So um we have so that's kind of the crux of this. So let me just go through the work. Bill
and I have talked about this. Bill's the the conservation commissioner responsible for this site. Um our number one thing as a commission is the CR. um that's our legal obligation. The select board is definitely in the town manager looking for us to do that. And so that
kind of takes priority in that some of the things that want to be done by the the friends of Coolest Farm, the whoever um we just can't do them as quickly as they might like because we're focusing on trying to get this done and we're
trying to make we're trying to make that all happen at the same time. So there is an element of just timing and that and speed. Um so we're focused on getting the CR, but we are committed to keeping the site open to the public and all of these kinds of things that you'll hear
in just a moment. So talked about the granite sign. We also want to improve signage on the site uh in general. Um there could be some interpretive signs. So about so for example about the vernal pool or about the meadow or about the history of the site u farming in
Chsford. There's a lot of things we could put some some signs along with improved trail signage and things like that. The kiosk and the picnic tables we talked about um removing there is a specific project we're semi working with a scout troop who we think might help us
remove the debris from the vernal pool. There's a fair amount of debris that probably a three-hour scout project on a Saturday could clean up. Um so we're trying to get that done. Um, we could uh uh just to the right of that bottom uh
right where you're Yeah, there's a huge oak tree right there. And we have identified that spot right there as a really good spot for another cleared area. Put a put some kind of a ground base down and um put another picnic
table, one of the new picnic tables there that gets a lot of nice shade in the afternoon. And so if you're visiting that site and you want to sit there, that's a really nice would be ADA accessible and we would try to make that ADA accessible. That was a big thing. Yep. Yep. That's right, John. Yep. Yep.
So, we would try to make that happen. That has to wait until we get rid of all that um the concrete the concrete pads. Although that's a nice flat surface, but we need to get we need to It's ugly. It's It's really ugly. Uh we we would definitely look at more trails in the
right meadow. Um putting in the split rail fence to delineate. It may come all the way around close to the street. It would be, what did we say in that other one? 700 feet at Red Wings. It might be in that order. You know, it's a lot of fence. So, you know, delineate the wetlands
to to delineate the vernal pool. Um, and then maybe on the right in the with the wetland area because that does sneak up on you. Um, I know the DPW was there last spring and they got a little they did they got a little caught stuck. Yeah. um we we definitely want to brush cut
that upper area and we want to remove stones from that area so that we can cut that on a regular basis and not damage a brush cutter. So the first time through is going to be a very careful brush cut and then uh hopefully we'll be able to over the winter get some of the stones
removed so that we can uh the big there's some really big stones that we'll just leave because you can easily see them and move around them. But um but we want to get that done this year um over the winter and we've talked with DPW about doing that and um it's on it's on the radar for the winter. Um and then
of course overall remove invasives. We're we're absolutely in favor of removing invasives on this site anywhere and everywhere. Um there's no limitations to anyone um who wants to help out there. Um the in the field it
generally is most effective by having it cut with a with a brush cutter but along the edges along the trails along the um uh tree in the trees. You know we really want to protect the trees. Uh that takes a lot of work and you got to be careful.
You don't want to be pulling the the uh the vines out of the tree. Just cut them and let them uh die on the tree. It's good to pull the the roots out if you can, but the more you disturb the soil, sometimes that creates more roots, more uh more invasives. And the key thing is
this takes a long time. This takes a long long long time. It it's not something that you do and you're done. It's years and years of attention and you just keep keep plugging away at it. We're seeing this at at Thanksgiving for us. The the crew there has really done a
great job digging in and and going after that. Uh, and then finally, um, as I mentioned, we want to, um, really expose those stones, uh, the stone walls. I mean, they're just beautiful, and it's classic traditional New England. Um,
it's a nice it's a nice thing. So, we want to we want to get that done. It's, um, it's a lot of hard work. There's, um, I I really would like to have more help. Um, I don't want to be the one doing it. I know Bill and I have been out there and some of the other folks. Um, we are happy to have helpers and volunteers and anyone willing to to
help. We're we're looking for that kind of help. Um, nature assessments, that's the other thing I mentioned. We I think we should be doing that to help that and and encouraging any kinds of events.
So, um, we have had a rough plan, I guess you'd call it, uh, up on the conservation web page since about July, I think it's been up there. Uh it's just a PDF. It kind of describes a little bit of what I've talked about here. We'll probably update it in the next week or
two. Um because it's couple of months old. Um but uh that's been up there. So we try to share that. We've talked about this property a number of times in our meetings. But um I'm I'm going to be presumptuous and say that I sent a
letter to the uh uh drafted a letter to both finance committee who was a what's called a warrant committee. I learned something new. That's why they review all the warranty articles. Um, and the select board, I sent one to them and I said for more or less what I just talked about here, we don't support the
article. Um, and I didn't really have the chance to um talk with all of you about that. I think in principle and I have had conversations with the leaders of the friends of the part of the of the the sponsor of the of the
article. I think we're really close in in principle with what we're talking about here. When you look at all of the property, all of the site, and then what we're doing, I'm okay with cutting some more of that area than we did before. I'm okay with that. uh because it is a
lot of invasives. Um and we can do some more of that, but I'm not looking at cutting all of it. Um I think uh we need to still maintain that balance between natural habitat, biodiversity, and use
by the public. And so that's where where I'm at. That's kind of that's kind of where I think I I I apologize if if anyone doesn't really agree with what I submitted to the to the select board and the um I mistimed the um the the
presentations. I thought that this meeting that they would be reviewing it after this meeting, but I mistimed that so I had to jump it. that I'm open to comments from the rest of the commission about where we stand and what you think about that article because when and it is possible that the article will be
pulled um that that we come to an agreement that it will be uh that it will be pulled. Um again it's not binding. It's a advisory article. So from my opinion we're going to keep moving ahead. Um, I don't want to dismiss what town meeting says or, you
know, what the public's saying, but at the same time, I think we have a very good plan. I think we have a really good site and I think the approach that we're taking with maybe some minor adjustments um is is a good approach. So, I'm open to comments.
I think it's a work in progress. It's uh a lot of things happening behind the scenes that the average person doesn't know what's going on. I mean, there's been surveyors out there doing work on the site. There's uh we behind been discussing things with DPW that's going
to be done in the colder weather. So, things are happening. You know, we're waiting on the the Eagle Scout for the kiosk for a few months, but I think October 4th, he said he's going to be out there installing that. So, and I know what the the granite signs I'm told
will be done by the uh by Frost. Yep. So, this thing's happening. It may not look it if you drive by every day, but it's it's it's a work in progress. We definitely uh need to open up the walls to to see that's very, you know,
important to a lot of people. And uh like I said, we're we want people to help out. If people want to, you know, cut the grass to a bigger area as long as it doesn't go into the vernal pool buffer area, we're open to expanding it
to a certain point, but you also have to maintain it once you do that. And I know DPW doesn't have the the uh horsepower to uh they don't maintain they don't maintain any of our conser you know, conservation open sites. You know, there's a there's a balance between what as a conservation
commission what we want the site to represent and what the neighbors would like and the town. I mean, I think everybody's pretty close to wants the same thing. So, I just I just think it's going to take a little more time. Yep. Okay. John, you were on the task
force. From the beginning, a lot of people stated they want to see the the meadows cut to look like Redwing Farm. Mhm. That was right from the beginning. And Paul Cohen had said, "It would be
beautiful if we could have an event area like Redwing Farm." Paul Cohen did. He did. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, he did. Yep. Okay. Yep. He He
And I I think opening up to the stone walls and cutting it, I don't think you're going to hurt a lot, there's enough around there to sustain the wildlife. Okay. Thoughts, Mark?
Uh, excuse me. Yeah. Uh, S, uh, Sedbury Valley has a deed restriction. We can only do so much. We just can't jump in and do a ton of things because we want to, don't they kind of want to? Yeah. Um, so David, jump in here if you
want, but um, my my take on it is that we are still not at a firm agreement with them yet. Um, we're still working through, which is why we're trying to tread carefully, I guess you could say, with moving anything too quickly. That being said, um I don't think anything
we've talked about here is um so far with you know our plans and what we're going to do here is uh dramatically uh an a concern to Sbury Valley. I think if we were moving huge rocks like like cariz rocks, they'd be concerned. If
we're talking about, you know, the rocks that are just going to gum up your your brush hog, I don't think that's I don't think that's really a big issue. um they want to see a clear understanding of what the intended use of the property is and that's where I think you know we have what I would consider for the
overall parcels is multifunction it's it's we've got agriculture couple of different kinds of agriculture we've got the potential for community garden we've got trails and we've got open meadow and we've got family area with with picnic
tables so you know we've we've got a lot of what uh what that was I think what the original as well. I think that the the the real difference is how how tightly you maintain it and and how how much that grass is cut. This this was sold for the town of the
taxpayers passive recreation. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Open space. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Not not a They did uh you guys did consider pickle ball and a couple things, but um Yeah. Okay. But it didn't it didn't go. So that because that's
active recreation, but uh but yeah, I I I think the in I mean what I heard from the task force in their report was passive recreation. Yeah, familyfriendly passive. So Chris, sounds great to me. I I would expect a town meeting to probably be an agreement
between everybody. I think it's people doesn't sound like people too far apart. Ally comments. Good. Okay, Peter. Um, yeah. So, I've been following the discussions and once in a while I take a look at some of the Facebook
stuff, uh, which is kind of one-sided as we know. I just want to comment, um, you know, I would like to see everybody at town meeting consider the benefits of no mowing. And Bill, I gave you a list
that I I dug up, but habitat and nesting sites, forage for pollinators, insect life cycles. I know we don't want to get bitten by mosquitoes, but you know, the insects are the base of the food web. We're here to protect. Carbon sequestration. It's not really our
mission, but that's a town goal to reduce carbon emissions, and the taller meadow absorbs more carbon, if you will. um water conservation, filtration, all these benefits of not mowing that town meeting I think needs to weigh against
you know event space but I'm not hearing the the these ecological benefits coming out loud and clear because much of the discussion tends to be through this online social media that we're not part of. So, you know, I get emails from town
reps kind of asking questions. I don't really respond because that you guys are running the show here, but um I would just advise we continue to mention that, you know, that's the issue. You got to weigh the event space versus the habitat
and storm water and all the other things. And given the growth pressures the town is under, we need I mean, we need both. We need event space, but we need places for critters. And that to me that's that's the the decision that needs to be made. Yep.
And and I I do support what you're saying is incredible. You guys the amount of work going on. I you know I just want to say that thank you. I I I know how much work Bill behind the scenes this stuff takes and you know and we don't engage on Facebook because
it's not our that's not what we do as a conservation commission. That's not the way we Yeah. But we're guessing a third of the town follows that kind of a thing. And so you've got that when it comes to town meetings, people have heard, you know, all this negative stuff. But what you
guys presented is I think like you say, it's pretty close to everyone getting agreement on everyone that has an interest. So yeah, I I think we're a lot closer than it sounds. It it's it's very close. I mean,
yeah, that's kind of that I have to say that's kind of what struck me. I sat at the finance meeting last last week when the presentation and I'm and they even said like it sounds like you guys are really close and I'm going man it you know when you go down our list of what was recommended and you know you're kind of splitting the difference on how much
you mow. I mean that's basically it and it's right and and and I just want to say one other thing. I know we've all talked about this but you know I'm still like a newcomer. What's it been three years now? But, you know, it seems to me that that some of our citizens think of our open space as a park, like a city park
managed, you know, carefully cropped and everything perfect. And some of our residents think of it as, you know, the messier it is, the better because that's where the critters live. And, you know, that that's the balance. Yeah. Yeah. We're not planning um that's Thank you for reminding me. We are not
planning to leave this alone to nature and go crazy and go to We we are planning to have some level of managed uh forest and managed meadows. Um managed meadows doesn't look like a golf
course. Managed meadows are flowers that can be you know flowers and and it's interesting so many of these are called weeds. Joe pieed uh you know golden rod weed you know and it's like yeah they're but they're beautiful and they're pollinators and they're good for the
habitat. Well, yeah. And I mean, you know, you read a fa It makes my blood boil. You read a Facebook post saying like, "Oh my gosh, the weeds have taken over. It's all full of Golden R." Well, Golden Rod is a hardcore native plant supporting all the stuff we're here to support. It's like that's exactly what you want there. Yeah.
So, there's a you know, it's people's opinion. That's all. Yeah. Okay. So, I think I'm hearing u that you're supporting what I submitted to the to the select board and to the finance committee in that we don't support the article, but we can probably find a way to to to meet with
this this group and and come up to, you know, hopefully gain some more volunteers because they've been holding back and I would very much like to have more volunteers. I I was at Thanksgiving this morning. I don't want to keep going all over town at every, you know, I'm we're we have a lot of people that are
helping us in a lot of areas, but um culus um it would be great to have a focus group um working with us um at our direction. Um and that's that's what the select board said to the group uh last year was you need to focus uh listen to
the conservation commission and um so I hope we can I hope we can get there. I I think that's good. Um okay, I'm going to move on. Anything else to add, David? Anything else? Did I No, I can't get anything that um Okay. Uh agents report.
Well, I I was going to talk about a couple of things, but given the lateness of the hour, Carl, maybe you could put that off. Yeah, that's fine. Um I we can just mention what they are in that um Well, maybe getting some help on uh chasing people for certificates of
compliance. right? Because we we keep we keep getting these requests, you know, and you know, they need them the next day for a closing and some people don't react very well and you recommend that they get a certificate of compliance. So,
yeah. So, I think it's a good discussion for our next meeting. Let's put it on that and um we'll we'll get there. Um but yeah, I think this we need to do something. We talked about this at our our off-site whatever you call it strategy meeting last year that we recognize that but I think we we need to
do get a get a volunteer to help David with that because a lot of it's just grunt work. Okay. Um November meetings um so we have uh October 14th and 28th I think it is. Yeah.
But in November um the 11th of November would be our first meeting and it is a holiday. It's Veterans Day. So we will not meet on that day and we would meet then at the following meeting which would be the 25th I think which is by the way two days I think before
Thanksgiving. So just as a you know looking two months out at this point um but it's good to get that in terms of we got two meetings in October, one meeting in November, two meetings in December. So we have five meetings left in the year. So um I don't think you have a
huge queue of things coming in. Uh, not yet. But, um, but you never know. Yeah. Um, don't say that. Don't say that. Yeah, I know. If there is some compelling statutory deadline that needs to be met, I'll let members know. Yeah, we may have time. In theory, we could meet that Tuesday in
between the 11th. So, it would be the 18th, but we'd have to have some notice on that. So, yeah. But I don't I don't anticipate that. I I wouldn't expect it. Okay. Very good. Let's finish up here and um meeting
minutes for um August 12th and uh those were sent around. Thank you very much. Um John and I can't vote because we weren't here for that. And um and um we are uh not going to vote, but I will take a
I'll move Carl that we approve the conservation commission minutes of August 12th, 2025. Motion from Chris. Second. Second from Bill. All in favor? I I and John and I abstain. So that's uh five in in favor and to
abstain. I move to adjourn. Move. Motion from Chris. All in favor? I meeting adjourned. Thank