Okay, good evening ladies and gentlemen. Happy new year. Happy 2026. Uh it is now 7 o'clock on Tuesday, January 13th, 2026. I call this meeting of the Conservation Commission to order. My name is Carl Bishoff. I'm the chair of the commission. We will be following the
published and posted agenda. Uh the meeting is both in person and through Zoom. In the case of the Zoom not working properly, we will continue the meeting in person only. The meeting is being broadcast and recorded by Chsford Teledia and will be available on their
website and uh and on YouTube. Uh and we have a quorum. We are missing Mr. Garan this evening. Um but we will move on. Uh the I just like the beginning of the year say that the conservation commission is chartered to protect our
natural resources most specifically the wetlands and to manage land held in conservation. So that's why we're here. Um the only thing on the agenda that of note is that um the one regulatory hearing they're requesting a
continuance. So there will be no discussion on that tonight. Um and uh we can get into the first item on our open session agenda. Um if there's anyone in the audience online because I don't think anybody in the room wants to bring something to our attention. There's no
one in the zoom so I don't think we have any public input on uh on the uh docket tonight. So the first discussion or the first uh item is with the uh presentation from Mr. Adam Cole from Oxbow Associates on the Warren Pole uh
meadow habit study. So as a little bit of a uh setup on that, this is we had asked Oxbow to go out and look at the meadow at Warren Pole and uh help us
understand what the uh the long-term management of that uh that would be with the goals of really um uh I think our our main interest was biodiversity. >> Maximizing biodiversity. >> Yeah. maximizing biodiversity could be
for uh for u grassland birds, could be for turtles, could be for uh certain insects, but >> all of the above. >> But yeah, but basically looking at that um you know what what kinds of things would we want to be doing on that in that meadow? So the meadow is, if you've
been there, you know that the main field in the middle between two stone walls going all the way front from Boston Road to more or less to the back towards I want to say Actton Road, but it's actually FA Street in the back, but that's the meadow and it's virtually all
wetland. Um, we had the wetland survey done um by also by Oxbow a couple years ago and it's virtually wetland between the stone walls. So, um it's a it's a perfect place. There's not a lot of uh parts in this area where there's that
much open space that's a wetland meadow. So, it's a really nice opportunity for that. What's that? >> That's an upland meadow. >> Uh yeah, we have an upland meadow on the on the on the right side and and somewhat the field to the left, but but this is a this is be I think it's
considered a wetland meadow. Yeah. >> Yeah. In between the stone walls, definitely. >> Yeah. So, um, is is Adam online? >> Uh, yes. Hi, Adam. >> Yep. How are you? >> Good, thanks. Thanks for joining us tonight. >> So, Adam, if you could just kind of give us a short summary of what your um
findings and recommendations were and then we can have some discussion. >> Sure. So, um I submitted this back in July. Um but as you know, I think you you all have been busy during the field season and development season as have I.
So, I'm I'm happy that we got a chance uh during this winter LOL to discuss this. Um you summed it up nicely. The objective as was indicated by the commission um was to maximize biodiversity on the site and just
generally look at the meadows and see what could be done to improve them um or or you know with that goal in mind essentially. Um so I kind of started with barriers to um biodiversity and uh
obstructions that I saw and this was after a site visit. I did meet with David um and a few members of the commission and the land stewardship committee back in May um to do a site visit. We've looked around at all the
meadows um and uh we did have a local burer there who noted that they had seen um boba links recently and uh got some input from everybody as to what exactly we might be looking for. But um I noted
three distinct barriers to biodiversity involving the meadows. Um, one would clearly be invasive species in which the commission has been working with Oxbow to create an invasive species treatment plan on the property. And we've done several surveys to gather an inventory
and uh relative uh uh infestation rate for various um invasive plant species. So, that one's kind of being taken care of. Um I'm going to skip to number three here, which was the um channelized and unshaded brook. So, Putnham Brook runs
through the meadow. It seems as though it was channelized intentionally, probably as a ditch um or uh something agriculturally related um at one point. So, it's kind of lost all of its natural
curvatures and um there's very little vegetation growing along the brook. Um so I've noted that basically this kind of channelized unshaded brook um is
a barrier in the sense that uh it's supporting very few likely macro macro uh invertebrates benthic macros in the stream itself um the water quality is probably warm dissolve oxygen rate is probably not great um so I think looking
at that brook um would be a prior priority. And then the other uh barrier I noted was the non-native pasture grass in the meadow. Most of the meadows are dominated by grasses that um were planted there intentionally. They're non-native English and Europe um
European species of grasses that don't host as much insects um as native grasses do. Some of the grasses are even considered invasive like feris or reandaci which is the reed canary grass.
Um and a lot of the times what happens when you get non-native pasture grass um it becomes this kind of dense thatch that um exists at the expense of other native species that could be occupying the
space. And also all that thatch is usually pretty evergreen all year round and it reduces the ability of um native plants to seed. Uh it prohibits natural succession in the field as was indicated. I guess you guys haven't
mowed the field in a really long time. Um, and there's not a lot of shrubs and trees coming up. And that's because of this dense um, non-native grass uh, species that they're obstructing good seed to soil
contact. So, I came up with some solutions for the invasive species. Um, the three barriers essentially, I came up with some some solutions. We can talk about those. And then as extra bit of material, I talked a little bit about uh potential mowing recommendations and
then also species specific recommendations for baba links and um both wood and blanding turtles which have been mapped downstream of Putnhambrook. Um and there was one other recommendation based on um just starting an I naturalist project that would be
free and um a publicly inclusive way to document the biodiversity at the conservation area. That's kind of the general form of the report. I'm happy to answer any questions or go through any particular sections that are of interest.
>> Um, so could you talk a little bit about the um, one of the invasive things that we've talked about was the uh, purple loose strife and the idea of using the um, I forget the bug, but one of the
>> loose strife beetles. Loose strip beetle, I guess, is what it's called. >> Yep. Yep. It's a solid beetle. >> That's something Oxbow is able to help us make that happen. >> Yeah, I wrote the proposal for that. Um and we can do that. Yeah, that's um a a
good idea and it's seemed to have pretty good success because it's a heavily herbaceious uh wet meadow. Purple loose strife is going to be pretty prominent um as it is on site. So, um, especially with the
land use history, um, usually you tend to get more invasive species in in old farms and things like that. So, there is quite a bit of purple strife and yeah, we would be happy to, uh, help work on releasing the beetles. >> Well, and we have the grant application
in, >> okay, >> to to help fund that. >> Okay. Uh, anyone else have questions, comments? Peter. >> Uh uh. Hi, Adam. Uh Peter here. Uh nice to meet you and thanks for helping us.
Just a quick question on the mechanical discing >> and scraping option. You I think rightfully pointed out uh compaction questions about how that whether or not you know whatever method is chosen might cause further compaction of the soil.
And my question is um you know that field has been worked since what John you know the late 1600s. >> Yeah. >> Is any compaction that might occur from this kind of a eco restoration is that pale in comparison to a couple of
centuries of tractors and horses or is it still a concern and and what can you do about that? Um well usually the equipment that's doing that there you know it's the compaction is I mean it's really agricultural
equipment um which you don't really want compression on agricultural fields either. So you will get a certain degree of compression um compaction based like on underneath the uh location of the tires but generally it's meant to um and this is the discing in particular
scraping it all depends on the machine that you're using um basically and I would say compaction is not a huge concern especially with probably the land use history um and I think yeah it's it's it's probably a more minor
concerns. >> All right. Thank you. And I I would like to just comment very very quickly. I you're I really liked your summary memo. It was I thought well thought out and well put together and I understood it. So thank you for that. >> Thank you. >> I I have just a couple questions.
>> Yeah, David. So, u Adam um uh is so so the reason that um in in particular shrubs um like uh uh el elderberry or uh some of the um dogwoods, the dogwood species
aren't aren't growing up along the edge of the stream, you know, just naturally without having to do any active planting. So, you think that's that's pretty much because the non-native pasture grasses are kind of just preventing that? >> That would be probably that'd be the
most likely, you know, guess, I think. Um, it's hard to say exactly why that isn't happening, but that does seem in my experience to be a pretty big um barrier to to um restoration, which is why the stakes are nice because
they can be driven right through that that pasture grass. Uh the plugs the plugs you're talking about >> live staking. So actually um plugs are would be in a in soil grown in soil versus live staking which is a cutting
that's uh driven into the soil. >> Um so uh >> um so so the um the plugs would be small firstear transplants you say in your memo. And is that the same for the
staking, the live staking? >> Um, so there's no there's basically there's no nursery production around staking. You just cut the stakes and then hammer them into the ground. Um whereas plugs are propagated in a nursery either from cutings or from
seed and they're grown in a potting mix. >> So So like um would it would it be better would it be better to take like stakes from from onsite? Um >> that would be that would be the best. Yeah. >> Okay. Um like >> Go ahead.
>> Um and the least expensive method of of getting stakes. Yeah. >> And that and that that would work say like we we we noticed a big when we were out there last summer, we noticed a big uh native pigota dogwood. So would it would it work with that? What would you
do? Just just cut off one branch. >> Um the pagota dogwood. No. Um, that one doesn't Yeah, that one is more um yeah, it wouldn't be good for for for
basically stream bankank. Um, it's a little too saturated in those areas for pagota dogwood. They usually grow a little bit more upland. And while they might be uh while you might be able to do those from cutings, I've never heard
of people doing pagoda dogwoods from cutings. I was thinking more about silky dogwood in particular. Um red oer dogwood, which is not on site. Uh I believe silky dogwood is on site and uh elderberry is on site. And I don't know
if there are any native willow species on site. There are non-native and invasive um greywillows. I think there are I think we did actually identify a native willow. Um >> yes. Yes. >> Can I jump in? >> Yeah. >> Uh Adam, you probably know those. You
can buy the live stakes of what's allegedly Massachusetts native uh wetland shrubs for pretty cheap money out at that big giant nursery in in central Mass there. New England wetland plants. Yeah, New England wetland plants
sell stakes. Yep. And they mostly do actually have local or at least Massachusetts local genotype material. So, I think that would be probably the easiest thing to do would be to purchase um stakes from them. and and and and am I correct in thinking that that
obviously we could marshall a bunch of volunteers and collect local stuff, but it seems like we could get a lot more square footage planted with live stakes if we just had a big bundle of 20 whatever we decide on 20 this, 20 of that.
>> I I agree. Yeah, that would correct. It would be less. Yeah, it would be less labor intensive. And um you do kind of run the risk unless you have somebody present who's good with plant ID of of staking or cutting stakes from the wrong plant because you cut the stakes in the winter. So you have to be able to identify the plants in the winter.
>> Right. And and and I don't know if this is a qu I'm sorry Dave mean to take over. I'll get back to you. Adam, in your vision of what we might do with this land or Carl, in the chats that you've had, are we thinking of repopulating like a fair amount of the stream bank if we can figure out how to
do it? >> Not just one or two or three or four or five live stakes, but like a hundred. >> Well, that's that's what the report recommends, I think. You know, if we want to try and maximize diversity. Now, if if if if we're going to go so far as to change the route of the stream, you
know, to maximize it more, then probably makes sense to hold off on doing any sort of active planning until that's done. But I don't I don't know how likely going in there to re to reroute the stream is. >> My thoughts there are I don't think I
want to go after the money to have a backhoe and make that happen, right? But if a beaver comes in and does it, then >> yeah, >> that's free. And um it'll it'll still end up going out in the same place. >> Yeah. >> And it's like if that happens, okay, but
um and we've had that happen already once, so I'm not I'm not going to be surprised if they come back. >> I I I I was just thinking that it would seem to be the the most likeliest chance for success if the the live stakings
come from plants that are on site. But but to to to do to cut live to cut live stakes, Adam, that doesn't mean you kill the existing plant, right? >> That's correct. Yeah, >> you do you do remove a portion of it,
though. So, I think if you're >> Yeah, if you're intending to do a larger swath, um, you know, if you're just experimenting with it, I'd say you could probably get enough on site. But if you're, you know, being really serious about it and you want to do the length of the stream or something, I would say
purchase live stakes. >> Um, but and and you you mentioned the cutings have to be do done in the wintertime. Maybe maybe we could think about having Oxbow do do a follow-up study to that just focuses on that particular activity. Um
>> Um Yeah. Or a design mean you mean maybe like how many >> states and where where they'd be planted? Yeah, we could definitely work on that. Yep. >> So, so the other question I have, Adam, is um you I think I think we shared with you
and I remember sharing this with um Matt that there was a um a member of the family in around 1913 1914 who tracked plants on the site and I'm sure in the neighborhood. I'm sure
it wasn't limited to the site, but let's just say the neighborhood. and it was over 200 plants that she listed. Um, and so would it be fair to say that if we stayed within that boundary um, in terms
of what you know, if she found it in 1913, then it's in the seedbank. I think that's >> that's what Matt said. Yeah, the the seed banks and there were some rare uh, species on that list. He said the seed bankanks may still be there. Yeah, it it seems I know if you talk to
Matt um your colleague Matt, he would have a copy of that and um it would be interesting to see if there's something in there on that list that's like, hey, we should, you know, try something that's a little unusual and see if we can get it to come back besides some of
the normal things like elderberry and, you know, some of the dog woods and the willows that are good along the along the bush because we're trying to we're trying to really increase the diversity and that might something, you know, maybe that's something that the uh, you know, that would be of interest to a lot of people.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I did review that um document and I'd say it's possible. Some seeds only last a couple years. Some of them can last, you know, over 100 years. So, it all depends on the species. Um, but we'd be able to tell from the species
what the likelihood of the seeds um still being in the bank would be. Well, I'm I'm guessing I'm not necessarily saying let's hope for the something coming out of the seedbank so much as saying if it survived 100 years ago there if it was found 100 years ago, then chances are the climate's pretty
good today, if we eliminate the agriculture and the and the the um uh you know the cutting uh that some of this if we planted it, if we went out and found you know some plantings of some sort and put them in that that we might have a good chance of being
successful. So anyway, if there's something in there that you saw on that list that's like, hey, that would be cool to try. I think that would be interesting for us to to consider, especially in this wetland area. >> Okay. Yeah, I'd be happy to review that list and see if there's anything in
particular that that jumps out to >> I know that for example, I think it's trillium is a is that's an upland, but that's something that's a really interesting thing and we don't see it much anymore, >> but that's usually because the deer eat it, you know, and and um that might be a
challenge to try to keep that, but I I don't know a whole lot of other >> That's not my Adam, is is there a way to find um old seeds, you know, in in you know seed banks like that. Um
>> not really. You'd really just kind of manage for them and then they would either show up or not show up basically. >> I see. >> You know, like you could make a canopy opening um or you could fence an area off for deer um in which you know you think would be a likely location for
trillium um and see if they come back. But otherwise you you wouldn't be digging around the soil to look for the seeds unfortunately. So I think let's we want to wrap this up here unless anybody else have any more questions. Um if we ask Adam and Oxbow
to come up with a proposal for us to have a more specific design focused on the Brook side um but not 100% necessarily but you know maybe 7030 or something because I think we do want to do something about all the the the you
know what was a valuable hay crop. Uh but that's not a good valuable biodiversity thing. So um if we can help if we can get a proposal from them um to put that together and we'll come up with some kind of funding to do that.
>> Does that make sense? >> I'm seeing from David and from Peter and Mark. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, Adam, can we ask you to take that next step because that and I'm in my mind I'm thinking of, you know, that it's something like, you know, here's,
you know, 300 feet of brook or 600 feet of brook, whatever is the right number and, you know, spacing these things. It's kind of like when you see a, you know, landscaping plan. Um, yes, something. It doesn't have to be super specific, but it's just, you know, and let's let's say this would be, you know,
like maybe this is be the deluxe model and this is maybe the, you know, the Honda model, something like that. >> And we can figure out what we want to do. We might even say, let's do 100 feet or 300 feet this year and in two years we do another 300 feet or something like that.
>> Yep. We could do that. >> Okay. Anything else? >> Great. >> Nope. >> Leave the willows out. Leave the willows up. >> Well, these are different willows. >> These are the good willows. >> Different willows. >> These are the good willows. >> There's no good. >> I thought John was gonna have a fit when
we said we want beavers here and we want willows here. >> I was ready to say I was ready to say no. Let's bring a D8 in. >> So, Adam John is a farmer. >> You plant it with hay and have a viable crop like it used to be. it be prudent
to do an area of a certain kind of biodiversity then another section something else or that doesn't follow the plan >> I'd be open to whatever but I ask you know I think that's up to Adam to come up with a recommendation yeah I think
that's and to some extent we can do some experimenting kind of yeah we can say hey what what works what doesn't work and that's always the case in landscaping and planning and planting is you know you you plant this beautiful plant and three years later it's like oh that didn't that didn't last it didn't
like that sun or whatever but yeah I I think we can come up with something like that >> well I think field nesting birds something yeah that's that's definitely you know uh doable we should look at >> question is uh how ho how how do we go about that I think the first thing we
need is a nesting survey >> okay >> nothing's been done there for I'm going to guess 50 60 years but it still supports deer life there Yeah. Yeah. They've I mean they they were cutting for the for the hay and that was it. That was it. Yeah. And that's been a lot of
>> Yeah. There's I see them almost every time I go. Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. >> The thing is >> the beavers if you stop planting all these trees and everything else and the beavers are going to come in and
decimate it in one season. >> So you got to keep that in the back of your mind. >> Yeah. Beavers aren't your friend. >> Well, >> remember that >> we we might disagree on that, John. >> No, I'm gonna tell you right now, they're not your friend.
>> Okay. >> All right. Uh, Adam, thanks very much and uh uh appreciate the work on this and look forward to hearing the next step. >> All right. Thank you very much. >> Thank you, Adam. >> Make sure that goes in the minutes. Vivian, be are not your friend. Not your
friend. >> John Swinsson. >> John Swansson. >> Kyle disagrees. >> I don't. >> And Kyle disagrees. >> Yeah. >> But beavers are not your friend. >> Will a beaver take down a willow tree? >> Beavers won't even go near a willow tree.
>> All right, let's uh let's keep moving on. We have to let things keep moving. Uh we have the report of the planning board liaison to the conservation commission. Good evening, Mr. Lavali. >> Good evening. For the record, Chris Levali, chair of the planning board. Um, so this week we have a fairly light
agenda. Um, we've got uh public hearing for Riverneck Road PAS treatment facility uh for the uh Chsford Water District. Um, new addition uh new building next to their current uh building facilities.
Uh we also are opening the zoning public hearing um for zoning articles we're bringing forward to the next town meeting. We've got the sead overlay changes. Some housekeeping for that. Cleaning up of some dimensional um
tables in the zoning. uh changing the permitting of parking garages from the ZBA to the planning board uh to bring it in line with the parking lots that are in the use table. We are revising the definition of boarding house to align
with the new definition of family that we passed the last town meeting uh to remove remove any overlap that might be there. Currently, we are proposing to add a bed bed and breakfast definition and use to the use table um because we
have hotels, motel um and boarding houses. So, we figured this would be a natural extension. We are uh working with Kelly Bey to um revise the outdoor lighting bylaw uh that he withdrew last town meeting and
uh bring that forward this time. Um, we then have a neighborhood meeting um to discuss the Middle Sex Street Mill area and putting CBLT uh the new zone in that area. Uh we'll have the neighborhood
meeting at this next meeting and then the following planning board meeting will open the uh public hearing for that and then we'll get an ADU report uh from this past year from Evan um in his director's report.
Okay. Any questions, Chris? >> All right. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. Appreciate it, Chris. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Next up, uh let's see. Regulatory hearings. Okay. Notice of intent. This is the New England Power Company at 100
Ecuador Road. Um and the applicant has requested a continuence to January 27th. David, what's your gut feel? Do you think it'll be asked again or >> uh they seem pretty close to having a revised plan that and they promised that they'd get it to me
>> by uh well the the the Thursday before uh the meeting because the Monday that Monday is a holiday Monday of next week. So I said they could have an extra day. >> That's fine >> to me. That's so yeah I I I I think they're just about there.
>> Okay. All right. I take a motion. Um I'm I'm looking around. We're missing our our motion, man. >> A motion. >> I take a motion uh to continue the hearing for uh 100 Ecuador road to January 27th.
>> So move from Bill. >> Second. >> Second from John. All in favor? >> I. >> I. Okay. Thank you. Appreciate it. >> Um next up, continual business. Mr. Spawn, you have an update on a couple of things here in this list here. So,
>> yeah, I I'll make this quick. Um, uh, Evan and I put a grant application in to do a biodiversity study of our lands, Thanksgiving forest and somewhat downstream on River Meadow
Brook. It was a state grant program and the objective is to get an expert to basically do kind of what Oxbow's been doing. um to take a hard look at the plant species that are present in that watershed and the lands that the Kong
controls if you will and and land trust. We didn't limit it. Uh what plants are there? What are the threats to those plants going forward? Obviously invasives, but as the climate changes over the next 30 years, is there something we should be paying attention to? For example, the changing temperature
and rainfall favors certain trees over others. So if your forested areas are all the trees that aren't going to be doing well in 30 years, the question is is there anything we ought to be doing now? Same with with animals. And the idea is to give us some actionable info
that we can use when we look at both land management and for that matter potential acquisitions, but also permitting. So stay tuned. I don't know if we'll win or not, but there's other opportunities that I'm sure we'll be interested in. And then what? I had a second thing.
>> Do you know when you'll hear? >> I don't I don't. But um >> do you how much was it for? >> Uh good question. 50 grand to hire a consultant. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Evan Evan did uh the bulk of the
actual grant writing just before well during his holidays actually. >> Yeah. Okay. >> So yeah, so that was nice. I really appreciate that help. And then the second thing is um a couple of us and I guess it's really David, you me and Evan have been looking
at the question of water quality. So our mission here is you know you guys know what it is wildlife habitat prevent pollution. We don't know if our streams support wildlife. Okay, of course we do. We see the
wildlife, but we don't know if there's basically some pollution issues in our streams that negatively affect wildlife. And by wildlife, I mean everything except beavers, John. >> Oh, beavers. >> Everything except beavers, but you know,
fish, turtles, whatever. Uh, so uh we had a very good meeting today with a potential partner and there is a grant opportunity that Evan and I will and David will discuss soon. But what I want to share with you is we're
starting to build a relationship with an organization called ORS O A RS. And don't ask me what it stands for because I don't remember. >> But they they've been around for 30 years. And it's a a 10 member board of directors
of very senior level environmental type people and about five staff and about 30 volunteers that for 20 25 years have sampled the quality of the water in the 33 towns
including Chford that represent the conquered river basin. Well, Sudbury, Asabet Conquered, and you may have seen that acronym they say Sue Asco, but Sudbury, Asabet, conquered River drains 38 communities that roughly parallel 495
from I don't help me out David Boxboro or Framingham all the way up through us and we're at the tail end of that. So twothirds of our town though, all the water drains into the conquered river basin. And because of that, for about 10
years, they've been sampling our drainage, which turns out all goes into River Meadow Brook where it goes through uh LOL and the LOL connector. It's kind of Tanner Street. It it was channelized. >> Speaking of channelized,
>> 100 years ago, right about 495. >> 495. >> Yeah. But you know, a lot of our stuff drains there. Like remember the ponds that were affected by the tanker spill on Route 3 that drains into River Metobrook. this ORS organization with with you know they're considered a nonprofit um have been sampling the
drainage from Chsford for about 10 years but at LOL and if you look at the numbers which we're not going to get into but there's certain numbers there that make you wonder about the water quality and a good example is the salinity the salt level they're measuring is not good for the critters
that live in the mud. So my logic was well okay since we're trying to make all these decisions about development we ought to better understand the water quality and I don't have any preconceived notions. we could end up deciding the water quality is great which means we don't need to be
terribly restrictive on a certain uh permit and vice versa and then of course related to that is what are the issues if if there are anyway the starting point is to get some sampling data and >> some data >> I don't know let me work on this and we'll see what happens um and then
finally there's a third thing that that we were invited to and thank you David you passed the invite to me but I don't want to talk too much about this one either because it's developing But kind of the same group has a big state grant to look at this whole watershed
and what are the threats over the next 30 years as it rains harder but then doesn't rain and we get a drought and then the next year it rains harder. So that creates you know disturbances if you will. >> Plus the water's getting warmer and they've measured that which means it
holds less oxygen which means it's worse for fish. And of course, if you lose your fish, you're going to lose the herand and the not the beavers, but the otter, right? Um, so we've been invited to participate in this study. And if anyone's interested, just talk to me
offline because I'm not they're not exactly sure where it's going. But I do want to say one thing which was interesting. The 33 communities involved, there about 10 of them on a big planning meeting that I attended last week. What's interesting is the
main focus seems to be flooding which it should be and not so much the stuff well the other stuff we care about you know the the habitat stuff. So we'll see what what this thing is focused on. It could just end up being a big flood study and we don't have
huge flood problems I guess from River Meadow Brook compared to Maynard Hudson Wayland where >> or do we I guess we maybe we do but our floods have been on on on nothing like you see in Wayland Sbury >> or anywhere down there.
>> Are you think ours are >> they're nothing compared to down there? >> Yeah. >> Nothing. They've had Yeah, they have a lot of channelized stuff, you know, the mills and all that going on down there. That's >> Yeah. So, I'm just trying to get a >> lot of flooding. >> So, my what I'm trying to do at this point, I mean, one of us could join the
steering committee for this two-year project. That might be a heavy lift, >> but at least I want to try to get our voices heard. And David's been helping me and Evan's been helping me. We've submitted some suggestions to this group of what might be useful to our conservation commission here in
Chelsford to better understand this, you know, what's happening as it rains harder and whatnot. So, if anyone wants more detail, we can talk offline. >> So, see what people don't understand. We're at a major interchange of 495 and Route 3 and the town of Chums and the
amount of salt that gets put down. We're going to be have to put a deselination plant, not a PAS plant. We put more salt down in this area. Okay. If you would do the tonnage rates, >> Yeah.
>> and then anybody smart enough that could do it >> would say we're putting way too much salt down. So, so maybe I can sign you up. I'm interested in No, no. I'm interested in working on this because, as you know, >> just tell them >> build a desolination plant.
>> But it's an interesting but but your point is well taken because um our town has cut salt usage. >> No, >> I don't know what the numbers are by Christine could tell us. But we don't control We don't control We don't control all the roads >> or the highways or
>> Well, that's what I mean. So, >> we haven't got salt. >> Don't Don't get fooled by those signs. >> Don't get fooled by it. >> No salt area. >> Don't get fooled by it. >> Oh, our science. Well, no, it's not. It's the brine project I'm referring to, >> right? But the state >> salt is
>> as bad as beavers and will. >> Okay, let's uh let's keep moving on. >> We agree. >> So, um >> dude, we agree. >> We have uh we have been asked if we would like to participate. This is a new new item. I didn't it's not on the agenda but we were asked um by the
Chsford High School wellness fair committee if we would like to participate in their it says bianial I don't know if that's twice a year or every two years wellness fair that is scheduled for Friday March 6th uh from 8:00 to 2 o'clock at the gym at the high
school. um that's an opportunity that they're looking to have different companies, mostly companies that are showing up to talk about, you know, all different healthc care related stuff. But, you know, from our our point of view, I I'm a believer that um a walk in
the woods is good for your mental health, and that's not a bad selling point for us. But I'm not I'm not signing up to do a six-hour thing here and preparing and all that. Um, so if someone's interested in doing this, let me know. We can get back, but we have to
let them know by the end of this week. Um, so not hearing anybody like jumping all over it. But >> if you want to you want to do >> those when I was in high at Cher High and it's basically like, you know, like giving out free sunblock and chapstick
and, you know, screening of of sun damage to faces, pens, things like that. So, I don't think it's any heavy lifting, per se, but >> wait a minute. We could hand out free beavers >> and >> don't we have extra bever to one of the wellness clinics? >> Yeah. >> You don't want to go?
>> Yeah. Okay. So, >> we're way beyond >> I don't know. You might be inspirational. >> Yeah, I don't think so. >> All right, let's keep moving. Site uh conservation site updates. So, Peter, at Thanksgiving Forest, um, today, I don't know if you knew this, but today they
installed the first of the fisher uh, nests, the fisher nest was installed this morning. And, um, we're going to meet tomorrow and talk about the duck nest. >> One o'clock. And, um, >> one o'clock. Yeah, >> I think one o'clock. Yeah. >> And there was a note just now. Uh, Dave
Sperry wondered if we could have some land trust, and I was going to mention that. Yeah, >> we're going to meet to pick some locations for a couple of duck houses that Jeff Bowden has agreed or is, you know, wanted to build and I I bought some parts and he got some parts and we'll get it done. Um, but I realize
that the land trust owns most of the shoreline, >> right? >> I don't know exactly where the property >> lies near they certainly own most of it near um near the entrance near the near the parking area. As you go further down, it's it's our land, but they own
like the water. It's >> Well, that's it. So, when you look at the town map, >> Yeah. >> when you are at Thanksgiving Forest, the the parking area to the left all the way to the church in Route 4, >> it looks like Land Trust owns a strip of land. Well, I don't know if it's land or wetlands, but >> yeah,
>> you know, but when you look to the right, the line is right at the pond. And I don't know what that means if we want to put a duck house on the edge of the pond, but it seems appropriate to consult with our partners. So, >> I'll I'll send Dave a note and tell him it's good. >> And yeah. Okay. It's Yeah, I'm all I
don't know if there's anything else at Thanksgiving. >> Uh no, >> I don't think so. >> Nothing is on the radar. >> Okay. And then Crooked Spring. Chris um uh Chris did not get there. I haven't been there in a while, but I don't know
of anything at Crooked Spring. And you've got Redwing Farm. I don't know if there's anything going on in Red. >> I haven't heard anything, but I ride by and I I didn't walk into the snow yet. No. >> Okay. And then at um Lime Quarry. >> Yeah. Um Mr. Bill Robbins had cut down
some trees for a bridge project that they're doing up there. Um I took a walk over there last Saturday, picked up some trash, things like that. Um there was a small I say small, there was a car accident. Someone had hit some of the rocks. Um >> incident
>> incident. That's why they call them accidents. But at any rate, those were um replaced. the rocks on the right side of the um parking lot. Um some bigger rocks. >> No, David, keep going. >> Yeah, >> there was some graffiti also on the sign
in the parking lot. >> There you go. I was there and uh that I took that photo. So, it looked you can definitely see it from the street now. >> So, >> yeah, it's better than it was. It could still be if we're looking to >> dump another big rock from there
something I was going to ask you about this. Yes, >> I saw the incident. >> Okay, >> it was a Sunday, I think. Right. >> I I got to tell you, why can't we open that back up? Get rid of them rocks. Is there a reason other
than make it so cars can pull in, but not trucks? Because there's a lot of trucks going up the road. >> That's an interesting, >> I think. Get rid of the rocks. So, after seeing that car, I said to myself, "This just ruined somebody's day."
>> Yeah, sure did. >> And that car. >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> And I don't know if you guys saw it. >> I didn't see it, but I >> Well, I saw I felt bad for the person. >> Was it someone leaving the parking lot or trying to leave the parking lot? >> They went to turn in there and the rocks
are so low you really can't see them. >> And it was raining and it was dark. >> I think it was like, "Yeah, I get it. I I get it." Material in. So if it was raining and dark then they weren't planning to use absolutely not you can't see them. >> She was just turning around. She wanted to just turn around. She, you know, forgot something at home or whatever.
I'm not quite sure. >> And now somebody's on the hook for that. >> Yeah. Yeah. So whether it comes back >> and bites us or whatever, but I think they could open that back up. >> I know that the reason it was closed was
there were trucks that were doing doing it as a U-turn. >> U-turn, but >> Yeah. And uh >> I I I don't think that's a big issue anymore. >> Well, what about just posting some signage caution boulders do not try to >> No, he's saying get rid of it and let let it be too
>> and in you know a full double entrance which to be honest that end of the parking lot gets um it it starts to become overgrown and then it's you know it's like well if we >> yeah I'm not I think we should give it some thought. We should give it some thought.
Maybe there's, you know, there's there might be some way to like like put some rocks and make it narrow. >> Make it, >> you know, make it like >> take them rocks, move them to the right. Looking at that picture, move them to the right and make it just enough of like a small
a pickup to a six-wheeler turning around. Not a tractor trailer. No tractor trailers are going to go in there. >> Yeah. You make the the turning radius too tight or something. >> Yeah. just but I saw the car there and that bothered me to see that. >> Yep.
>> You know, I I I when I heard it, I was like and then I went out and looked. I went, "No, I I see how you could do this." >> I almost called you about a car and said, "You should go look at that and say, we got to talk about this." >> And now we're talking about it, and I think we can move stuff to the right and have the the highway department dump a
load of gravel in there and make it an in and out again and monitor it. Put a sign out front. No trucks if you want. >> Yeah. >> No signs. >> Going back to the graffiti on the sign is it's on the back the back part of the
sign. >> If you're coming from Westford back towards Chumps or down road. Yeah, that's Yeah. >> And this is on the It's not the granite one out in the front. It's the one. >> It's the one on the left. Yeah. To the park. >> So, it's not it's not ter I mean a lot. We cleared a lot of brush so that it's more open, but the brush will come back
and probably hide it. And it's not it's not um vulgar or anything like that. >> Is it graffiti or is it art? >> Yeah. >> Interpretation. >> Yeah. Somebody had fun. Okay. All right. Let's keep moving. Um anything else that um >> No. Again, just picked up some trash. Spoke to a couple people. That was about
it. >> Okay. Thank you. Um John, the Russell Mill site. >> Yep. I think if we can get a boundary line and get that entrance way, you know, straightened out, it will look
good. Same as here. >> Yep. Yep. >> And it's all doable. >> Yeah, >> it's >> Yeah, >> that's a that's a two-hour job to have them rocks slit aside, dump a load of gravel, and spread it out.
>> Okay. You want to do it on Thursday? I'll I can meet you there. No, I'm I'm not I'm not going to do it. >> I'm not doing it. >> Okay. All right. >> Did you get your tax bill this week? >> So, uh
>> the other thing at Russell Mill is they they cut they cut some of the trees along that driveway. So, that's a little >> That driveway is a mess. >> Yeah, it it sure is. >> It is. It's it's >> Yeah. >> You build all this >> Yeah. >> stuff that we talked about and the neighbors keep asking me, "What are you
going to do about it?" And I say, I'm going to tell him call Cal. >> No, not me. Call Paul Cohen. He's the town manager. >> Yeah. And he's going to call me and say, "You tell him to call me anymore." >> Who's their town meeting rep? You know, they can, you know, town meeting reps.
That's not what they're for. That's That's what the town managers for. >> All right. Uh, next up is Oakill and Deepbrook. So >> yeah, Oakill, uh there's an issue up there by the bridge near the uh solar
field. The beavers have a nice dam built and it's getting bigger and bigger and I think we need to we need to do we've been watching it, Kyle, you and I. And uh it's gotten a lot bigger since the last time we were there. >> So that looks higher. But if I look at
the if you go to the other picture, David, go back. >> Uh go back one more. Right. Uh that one on on the left. >> It's expanding. >> It doesn't you know I looked at the picture I took like a month and a half doesn't. It looks a little more. It looks a little >> Yeah, it's getting bigger. It's going to
the left too. >> Yeah. Towards >> towards the solar field. >> That's a big hill though. >> Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, what uh we got the gun club has had an issue last couple years with the beaver dam across Route Three letting go and really wiped out a lot of
>> scoured that whole thing. >> It scoured the whole thing. It wiped out their fish pond. It It did a number on the fish pond. >> So, I think before this gets out of hand, we need to do something with this. >> So, can we talk with that beaver deceiver guy and see what we can about that? >> I mean, this looks like just from this
photo looks like it's a good candidate. >> It's at least two feet high. It might be three feet high. >> Yeah, it's about I'd say three. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, um Okay, I'll give them a call. >> And they're working on it because you can see the trees chewed up and the stuff on the ground right >> Oh, yeah. They're active. >> They're still working on And there's a
second one on the down side of the brook of the bridge. >> So there's the this one on the upstream side, but if you go to the you don't see it in the pictures here, but on the downstream side, there's another dam there. And that that one's maybe a foot or so. It's not nearly as big. >> It's probably a foot or so. >> But when you look at the bridge, the
water at the bridge is pretty high. It's like, oh boy. >> And the last time that one across Route 3 went, it pushed the bridge off its foundation a little bit. >> All the people over there >> all the way down. >> Oh yeah. went through Scotty Hollow did a job on their place >> all the way back all the way down
across. I mean, they hurt everybody. >> The the rumor though, and I mean, there's no there's no definitive uh proof. I guess the rumor is that that the property owner tried to clear that. That was a damned culvert >> and the property owner tried to clear it
and that's when it gave way. >> Right. There was a lot of water behind it. >> Yeah. But it didn't it didn't give away. Didn't give way on its own. >> Somebody helped it. It was it was a catastrophic event. It wasn't just a slow break, >> right? >> And it was like formal or something
>> right after I saw it and it was it was amazing the amount of water that went through. >> But but that's not going to happen with this one if no one tries to muck around with it. >> Wouldn't it kind of >> eventually? No, >> I don't think so. >> Usually they they just break. Um
anything else at Deep Brook? >> Nope. >> Uh what's next? I think there was a cranberry bog. Yeah. So, do you have that? So, we had a nice big pine that went down on the >> Yes. >> one of the side trails and the the crew got out there and if you can Yeah.
>> This was the time time lapse video. >> Busy as beavers. >> Yeah. Busy as beavers. Yeah. >> Well, that's easy. >> They had their coffee. They're not thrown into the water, though.
>> It was blocked and then it's cleared. There we go. All right. All right. Thanks. Some fun. >> You want to see the other one? >> Uh, sure. Yeah. So, this was there was a tall dead snag right in the middle of the trail and uh they put some lines on
it and gave it a tug and got out of the way. And I think it's slow motion if I'm not mistaken. There it goes. Boom. Just exploded. That's how dead it was. It just >> slow super slow motion.
>> Why is that all scarred up on the bottom? >> Probably a beaver nod tree. >> Yeah. >> I weren't our friends. >> They're not your friend. That could have killed somebody. Remember that. >> Plus, they don't they don't like pines. They don't like old. Oh, they don't like
pines. >> Thanks to Dave for those videos. Thanks very much. >> Pop and oak. >> All right, let's keep moving. That's the uh cranberry bug. I think there's one or two more pictures on the slide deck. That one's the cleared. >> That was a big pine. That was last
Monday. I think they cleared that. >> So, that come down in a windstorm. Is that >> Yeah. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. >> Was it dead? Do you know >> it was dead? >> I think so. Yeah. So, probably >> I can tell by looking at it. It was dead. >> Looked toast. An owl probably lost its home.
>> All right, next one. I think David, I think is is it uh Yeah, we got that one. That was the cleanup. >> That's right. >> Oh, yeah. Right. Reservations. So, we did get in November, I think it was. We rerouted the trail that we talked about a while quite a while ago that was going
around the end of the stone wall, but it was in a brook. And so, we said, "Well, let's just punch it through the stone wall and not have a trail, not have a bridge on the in the brook." So, that was done. That was actually a fair amount of work, but we moved, speaking of moving rocks, we moved a few rocks.
We did get the Historical Commission approval on that. And um to call it a stone wall was being generous. As you can see, that's more a a semi-organized pile of stones, but it's not not really a wall. But anyway, that trail's been rerouted. And I I think there's one more
picture. Not maybe not. Oh, yeah. And that Oh, that that was one of the walkways. So, we're doing a lot of upgrades at right reservation on these kinds of walkways, replacing either the whole walkway in some cases or just the boards if the underlying structure is
still pretty good, but some of them the deck boards are in tough shape, the big long one that was built 20 something years ago. We started replacing a few boards and said, "Well, those were the bad ones." And then we got those done and it's like, "Well, there's still some bad ones." And we did more and still
some bad ones. Every time you do it, you see some more bad ones. >> Yeah. >> And it's like, well, we got 30 left to go to do 32 to to get them all done. So, we're going to get we're going to get them all replaced. >> So, we're using the tubes. >> No, this is just replacing the decking.
>> This one's just the decking >> under structure and all that we left alone. So, it's uh we pop off the top deck board and put another one on. Um and uh the other thing at right I wanted to
mention is that um the DPW removed a large rock that was in the parking lot protruding into the parking lot especially as you exited and it was the bane of anyone pulling out of there over the years and they did a nice job getting rid of it and smoothing it over. It's really nice. The only problem is is
that right now that parking lot I was there this afternoon, it is a beautiful ice skating rink. It's the trails are nice. The trails look like that there. You know, you go out in the woods and it's fine in the parking lot. It's like, oh my goodness, I I get to wear skates out out, you know, here in the parking
lot. >> But that'll that'll go away. It'll it'll it's fine. Um, and we I know we had mentioned about that we had an ATV visitor on that site and everything I can see that seems to be quiet right now. Um, I'm not seeing any indication.
I haven't talked to Amy lately, but I don't think um I I don't think they've been back. So, and then finally, let's talk about the Coolis update, Bill. >> Yeah. Uh culus is uh they've been working almost every weekend
since the fall doing uh well after the last meeting we approved that trail extension around the vernal pool and they were out there the next day and uh working on it and they get a good start on a good jump on it and it looks nice and it's not all the way around the
vernal pool yet. It's going to go end up in being in the uh parking area where you first drive in that the little uh half circle is going to come out there. But they're doing a nice job with that trail and they also extended it going up Pineh Hill Road and it actually comes
out near the houses up Pine Hill Road. So it's more of a trail that we're not going to mark >> local access >> a local access trail for the neighbors, >> but they've been doing a lot of work on that. Uh the uh they've been you the kids have been
using the sledding uh hill the last when they could that one snowstorm and they had quite a few people over there uh sledding. It worked out good. They found some the the people doing the volunteer work. Saw some areas where it needed to be uh some of the brush needed to be
pulled up more and a little more work to it. And there was somebody out there this weekend doing work uh on that. And uh also the DPW dropped off an excavator about a month ago and they've been working regularly up there. They were up
there today pulling boulders out and some of these boulders are huge 8 foot by six foot. I mean huge boulders. So they've uh got most of that field on the right side. I mean, I'm sorry. On the left side, pretty much clear of the
boulders that were bothering the, you know, cutting the grass and just a nuisance. So, they're still working on that. They're doing a great job. Uh, and we really appreciate the DPW for doing that for us. But, they've got an excavator on site and when they get a chance, they go up there when they can
see the rocks and they pull been pulling them out. They fill a hole in. You can't even tell that there was a rock there. >> What are they doing with the rocks? Uh some of the rocks are going to truck out and we're going to discuss this. Uh some of the rocks almost too big to they're more of an eyesore than anything. So
we'll see what we can do with those. >> Split them. >> Maybe bury them. >> Bring them for bring them to Mark's house. >> Right. Right. >> But no, the DPW is doing a great job. >> Huh. >> Solomon's Antique Rocks. >> Yeah, antique rock. >> You buy the first one.
>> Not me. Um the other thing was that Terry, we did have a somebody doing donuts in the parking lot. >> Yeah, we had somebody doing uh donuts probably a month ago maybe. Uh a kids going up there doing donuts in the parking lot and he wiped out one of the new trees that was planted right near
the where the granite sign is going to go. So uh I talked to uh somebody on DPW and they're going to replace it this summer uh this spring. So that was a problem. We'll put some kind of barrier rock. >> Yeah, I'll put something to keep them from hitting. >> I don't know if we can find any rocks
anywhere. >> Well, I think once the sign's in too, there won't be I think once the sign goes in >> Yeah, it'll make it'll take that issue. >> You wouldn't want to be doing donuts near the sign. >> No. And uh the other thing that new trailer I was discussing near the vernal
pool, that windy storm that knocked a lot of those trees down, knocked a bunch of trees down in that area and uh they went out there uh and cleared all those trees out. So there's a lot of work being done regularly on that site even through the winter and uh like I said
DPW's phenomenal help. >> Is there any is there any news on the granite sign? >> I'm sorry. >> Is there any news on the granite sign? >> Yeah, they it's half done. I told them it's got to be in the ground early spring so they know.
>> We just ran out of time with the frost to put it in this year. >> Well, what about my piece of granite? Uh that's coming after. >> Oh yeah, it's coming after. >> Let's keep moving. So um one one more picture there is just uh I think it's just showing that the speaking of
Putnham Brook and Warren Pole and the water um is the water's high there. I was there Sunday. Today sun. Yeah. And I was like, whoa, I haven't seen it that high in a long time, you know, between the droughts and just whatever. So that's as high as I've seen it in quite
a while. So it's nice to see that. And uh good. So all right. Um >> and and just and just the and uh the funding for the um fence and guardwell. >> Oh, so um we are on the agenda for the CPC meeting on Wednesday, a week from
tomorrow. >> Good. No, week from tomorrow. >> So I don't anticipate any issue there. So >> it should be it's what what was it? 13 14,000 something like that. >> 14 split rail split rail fence. Yeah.
>> And you said that they're ready to go even in the winter. So >> that's God bless them. Whatever. Okay. Uh agents report the grant application. We talked about that with the Beatles. >> Yep. So that's uh that's in uh waiting
waiting to hear um an answer on that. Uh and speaking of right uh reservation and Warren pole um I'm working on a grant uh application a mass trails grant application to to ser to survey
essentially the entire um southwest to northeast uh southern boundary of Warren Pole um toward for uh mark marking the property boundary toward creating a
trail there that connects to right and then goes all all all all the way up and maybe maybe we'll eventually cross Putinham Brook uh into the parking area. We'll see. This is this this is this is just to fund the marking of the property
line this grant application. >> And there's a few other benefits to doing that. It helps with CR control and it helps with we we you and I were out there. We were noticing some trees. I think some hickory trees that look like they're on a neighbor's property, but when you do the GIS view, it's like I
think they're on our property. >> Well, and there and there's that huge butternut. >> Yeah. And the butternut. That's maybe that's what I was thinking. The >> butter be really nice to know where that's located. >> Yeah. So, um so it'll be good to get that well well defined. Yeah. Because historically it's always been go by the
stone walls, but this was like No, this is these the GIS makes it look like it's way over beyond that. So, we'll see. I don't don't trust the GIS too much. It's it's very good, but it's not perfect. Right. >> All right. Meeting minutes.
>> Um I had just one other thing. So, um I mean on the the wetland uh and regulation um review bylaw uh regulation review committee. I mean, we we we have talked we we did talk about submitting a warrant article for this annual town
meeting to revise the the bylaw to add a buffer zone to bordering land subject to flooding. So, um I think we want to go ahead with that. I'm planning on speaking with Paul. >> Yeah. >> Seeing if if town council um can draft
that warrant article and it shouldn't be too difficult. So, um, it's probably something the conservation commission should formally vote on, you know, to go to go forward with. I can certainly put that on the agenda for the next meeting. >> Let's let's make it an agenda item, but
I'm pretty confident we've like tacitly agreed to that already, but um but yeah, >> but yeah, we should formally vote on it. >> Okay. >> Put it in the in the minutes in the agenda >> there. >> It'd be good to have Chris here, too. >> Yes. to that. >> There's also the meeting um related to
the bylaw review. There was an unanswered question about rainfall and flooding >> and long story short, a couple of us are meeting with uh DPW Tony. Yeah. >> Next week to get their Yep. >> engineers take on. >> So So that'll be good to have that meeting before. Yeah.
>> But but there's no action item yet because we're not really sure what makes sense. >> Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you both. And now meeting minutes. So we are in we are swimming in meeting minutes. So we >> make a motion. >> Yeah. Looking for the October 14th. So
motion from Mark on October 14th. >> Second. >> Second from Bill. All in favor? >> I >> I >> October 28th. Um make sure of attendance here on voting here. >> All everybody's here. >> Everybody's here for everything. But
>> I have a motion on the 28th. I know those two we we got them ahead of time, right? All of them we got ahead of time because Vivian sent them a few days ago, but um I don't know that all of them came on Friday's email,
right? From you. Did all four come from you Friday? >> Uh I may not have sent the ninth. >> Yeah, but I know Vivian sent it a couple days ago. So, we've had a couple days to look at. So the other three, the 14th, the 28th, and the 25th, I definitely sent the agenda.
>> So I take a motion on the 28th. >> Make a motion to approve the meeting minutes for October 28th. >> Motion from Ally. Do I have a second? >> I'll second it. >> Second from John. All in favor on the 28th. I >> Okay. And then next one is the 25th of
November. So, this was the um Yeah. Old Westford Road. Oh, that was the fire station, right? Okay. Yep. Um take a motion on that one.
>> Make a motion to approve the November 25th meeting minutes. >> Motion from Pi on the 25th. Second from Mark. All in favor? I >> I >> and uh the last one >> December 9th.
>> Yep. So this is uh we talked about Proctor Road. Yep. That was our last meeting. Okay. >> December 9th meeting minutes. >> Motion from Mark to approve the December 9th minutes. >> Second. >> Second from Ally. All in favor? >> I. >> I.
>> Very good. We are caught up and we had a nice I think easy minutes night tonight. I'm I'm not playing. >> Does it bother you all that time to type it all up like this? Does >> it matter the only human AI left?
>> Don't don't rub it in. Mark, >> I take a motion to adjourn the meeting. >> I make a motion to adjourn the meeting. Motion. Uh all in favor. Second. Second.