e e e e look at join de financing okay let's let's get started it's uh good evening it's now 7:00 on Tuesday March 11th 2025 and I'm calling this meeting of the CH
Conservation Commission to order my name is Carl bishof I'm the chair of the commission and we'll be following the published and posted agenda for the most part this meeting is both in person and through zoom in the case of the zoom not working properly we will continue the meeting in person only
this meeting is being broadcast and recorded by chelor tele media and will be available on their website and on YouTube and we do have a quorum here so we are good to go so first thing on our agenda is we ask if there are any comments from the public any public
input concerns relating to issues within the jurisdiction of the commission but are not on the uh current agenda or subject to a pending public hearing anything nobody on the zoom raising their hands David okay um so the first
thing there's a couple things Peter you want to mention uh what you said about those two boxes you have next to you here yeah so uh I had a I had a lovely experience last Friday the commission was invited to speak with a Girl Scout Troop um and I apologize if
anyone from the troop is listening but I did not write down the troop number um it's run by a KC pascotti and there were a dozen you know 10 11 12 year old young ladies very interested in what the town is doing to help animals and it turned
out they had just recently had a presentation by Jane new house so you know they were talking about you know coagulation and rodenticides and a bunch of other interesting things um so I did suggest they could consider a joint
project with our commission to do something like a YouTube video about some topic they were interested in or make a poster we could put perhaps at the kiosk or or something and and and I I did that partly because I think it's
good to do and partly because one of our action items in town plans um is to do community outreach and this was fun so they gave us Girl Scout cookies Prim and I apologize to the
audience because there was a request to keep the Thin Mints here oh so you might want to see if if there's some left over once it gets around the table that's not that wasn't me and uh you want to start and anyway um thank you okay thanks
Peter it's good good to see so um Chris um you and I were at the uh MACC this is the Massachusetts Association of conservation Commissioners uh annual conference last a week ago Saturday and
uh I have a couple things to say but why don't you just give a short update of what what you took away from that I mean it was the conference was excellent uh Gregor McGregor was given a lifetime award he's been 50 years as legal counsel for the mac and they gave him a
nice award so that was it was nice to see attorney McGregor get that recognition um I actually attended his he did a afternoon session on the legal developments and that was really good and then I just I attended the the um sessions that were led by our our
Northeast circuit Rider who really spend time on the rags and kind of common questions that Commissioners have to come up and I know Dave you work with the ficia Al too so she was really good so I in in one of the sessions and I'm going to scan the document and send it out to everybody but there was a 20
question exam multiple choice you know exam on how well we know the RS that we administer and um so I'll I'll scan it that document and send it out to everybody here you can self test yourselves on it you don't have to tell tell you how you're doing the score but
it um and I've got a key for it so I can send that out to you so you can correct your own exams Yeah Carl says after but honestly it was it was time well spent it was also interesting seeing the um diversity of where towns are CU some of the towns don't have an agent or they
don't have a full-time agent like we do there are towns out there that that have to do you know really everything on their own and the commission does the commission does yeah the commission's out there volunteering doing everything so we're really lucky to have our agent here and the support that we've got and
Vivian doing our minutes for us and everything so that was a good session it was it was time well SP on the other hand there are towns that have departments too there are towns on the other end of the spectrum there are those that have you know an agent and
the agent's got a couple of assistants a director yeah yeah this this you know we're kind of like I would say we're kind of in the middle maybe you know in the middle no I agree with you it was really time well spent it's a it's a full day of uh events i i attended that
same keynote speaker that was good I attended one on the biodiversity goals of the the state uh which is a new executive order from a couple years ago that was quite interesting I also watch out I got the ABCs of issuing tickets to Wetland violators so so just like
traffic tickets we can issue Wetland violator tickets so I learned how to do that and then there was one on Creative Solutions for improving wildlife habitat functions and that was quite good and um linking to something later on in our agenda lighting came up more than once
in these presentations you know natural you know lighting and how we do Lighting in our towns so we're going to talk about that later so um that was good the other thing uh Peter and I have recently attended two ATT uh
uh sessions one was bate roads which is the state version of DPW presented a training on invasive man Management training last week here in Chelmsford at the Alpha Road DPW facility and we attended with a number of our DPW
colleagues and uh people from other towns around the state a few handful of towns around the state there was about 30 people in the room and it was quite good they talked about the identification of common invasive plants the best management practices and also invasive pests which was interesting I
don't know a whole lot about the invasive pests and then this afternoon Peter and I attended a sisma meeting which is the Coalition of invasive species management I think it is for subury Valley Trust yeah yeah driven so that
was a good session but that was focused on lakes and ponds and Aquatic invasives and that was a good session similar in a way in that it was talking about identification and then best management practices and I was there oh I'm sorry David was there on Zoom Peter and I were
there in person and David was there in Zoom yeah yeah and if if if I could just add for benefit of our audience um the invasive tree or the tree the tree and invasive workshop at d DPW was particularly timely because our tree
Warden who's uh Christine Clancy DPW director uh has uh uh funding to do uh tree inventory and invasive inventory and management plan kind of focused on roads
since DPW you know focuses on roads so the timing was really good and I think uh that study which we'll talk about it more another day um I we hope that there's enough funding to get a little bit of consultant help to build on the work this commission has done you know
through you and Carl and David um at Warren pole kind of the beginning of looking at you know stuff that's growing there and what might take over if we don't do something so it's good stuff yeah lot going
on okay planning board Lea on hello Chris good evening good evening so last meeting we had quite a long meeting uh with a lot on the agenda uh we approved payot Drive uh project with
some special conditions we uh continued the Kates Corner zoning um discussion which will continue again this week um we voted to recommend the flood plane bylaw changes the minor zoning changes
um also the lighting bylaw um with some res reservations uh and that discussion is coming back around this week um with some proposed changes um from Kelly Bey uh and we also discussed and voted to uh
support the 129 overlay um changes also with some reservations um this week as I mentioned we're re potentially reconsidering the vote on the bylaw for lighting changes based on
uh updates and then we're going to be discussing One-Stop Grant submission uh to help determine market changes that will impact potentially our zoning uh and we've got one new public hearing um
no continued public hearings which is quite surprising and that one new public hearing will be pretty short it's related to Drum Hill um uh store that will change uses and potentially parking changes as
well that's about it okay any questions no thanks okay thanks thank you Chris okay let's get into the regulatory session here okay so next up is 10 hildr Street this is continued from okay so
the last we talked was January 14th um at that meeting um we so I I did a little little research on this so we opened this hearing September 12th 2023 uh since January of a year ago
there have been 14 or 15 continuances 8 active hearings or so I'm not sure my counting on this application and only three hearings since July of 2024 so as much as we feel this has been going on a long time in TimeWise it has but in the
last seven or eight months we've only had three hearings so it's kind of interesting when you look at it that way that being said that the last hearing the um uh discussion was focused on David's discussions with the natural heritage people about the vernal pools
and whether or not they had um been aware of the vernal pools and the prior disturbance which David reported that they were aware of this when they made their decision and also there was a request for a chain link fence uh around the habitat area which uh would protect
the turtles from moving into the developed area and being dangerous for the turtles and we had some discussion on special conditions so the main thing we were looking for was chain link fence that's that was what I have from my notes as a outcome from our previous
meeting so Brian you if you want to come up and um take over from here for the moment David did I miss anything um well we had also talked about uh possibly hiring a peer reviewer for the natural haage decision but yes uh thank you for the record Brian
goodro with Hancock Associates um so thank you to the commission for your patience a year and a half is a long time but as you broke it down um you know we have been somewhat productive uh the number one kind of issue as you
indicated was the swap or the requested swap from Split Rail to chain link fence um and what we have done since the January hearing is we reached out to natural heritage and had a conversation with them to see if it would be acceptable
um initially when we had talked with National Heritage we we had kind of assumed it was going to be chain link split Rael was put out there as an option and they wanted the split rail fence now based on our discussions with them they are willing to accept a chain
link fence and we have revised the plans to show a 5ot chain link fence um they also requested that we propose one-way Turtle Gates so there are two Turtle Gates called out in plan View um I'll just point them out quickly one
one is here uh the turtle habitat and nesting areas in this so we felt that this would be a good place for a oneway gate and then additionally before hildr uh roadway there's another turtle gate being proposed and that's really just to
allow them to get through the fencing before they go around the fence if you will and and potentially enter the roadway now one oneway Turtle Gates is basically a 4ft section of the fence the chain link is elevated by a foot above uh what
is gray and a 24in pipe is buried at uh the spring line so half of the pipe is in the ground and half of the pipe projects above the ground so on the conservation side or the undeveloped
portion that's going to be where the pipe is exposed so the turtles can't physically crawl up the pipe and make their way through the opening on the project side of it the grade is elevated to the crown of the pipe so all you would see on the up uh on the project
side is grass uh and then an opening uh within the chain link fence so Turtles can can go through the fence and kind of slide down the pipe so uh it will allow Turtles to to leave but not enter the
project the project site um so again we we've we've ascented to that we've revised the plans to show those natural heritage is on board with that plan and Brian there's there's also I forget the height there's wire mesh cloth along the
bottom of the fence as well to prevent turtle hatchlings from getting through the chain link fence yep so similar to what was done at 93 brick Hill Road and that is also reflected on the detail thank you David okay um so David that that satisfies
what you were looking for we were looking for that yeah so to me that was really the only remaining issue with as far as the the design and the plan goes so now again in my opinion it's just a matter of you know working out the order
of conditions um and I I did have some uh I have had some discussions with um Bryant uh about those um you know and in some detail uh so I think it's fair to say that you know you're you're you're okay and I assume your client's okay
with you know what what we've discussed yeah uh yes so David and I met uh yesterday and kind of talked through the four potential conditions one of them being the fence that we we uh revised the plan on second being monitoring um third being extending the Restriction
onto lot four for areas um kind of within that 100 foot buffer and the the fourth one is restoration of the buffer uh plan to be well there was there was also a requirement for the turtle protection plan corre the the nesting Management Area uh construction sequence
yep and um and yeah the the the long-term monitoring yep so and those would be mirrored by natural heritage so we have to do those regardless but this would be us so you know um Brian from 93 brick brick Hil Road and maybe some other projects as well as far as as far
as I know already you know familiar with um you know the plans uh and and the monitoring I don't think we need to keep the hearing open I I think that those the that requirement can be put in uh as
conditions because as as he mentioned that they that uh at least a couple of them need to be submitted to natural heritage as well so before we go there I still have a couple of questions that you and I have talked about with relative to the other parts of the town
the health department we talked about that they were look still looking for hydrogeologic information and I I'm not clear on the status on that and I know there was a mCP filed on this property yes uh on uh I think with the owner and
the status of that is still open in fact I don't think there's been any action U on that you know as as far as I know and I asked Brian about that and maybe it's better if you say what you know about it yeah so uh I don't have an update on
those items for the commission um right now okay I mean the the the letter that D um sent uh sent out was to the owner you know right I mean really
told the owner that you know the contamination on the property was his responsibility to correct and I I have no idea how uh if at all you know the the applicant is involved with that so
but but but but I do know and speaking with Donna I do know that um what she told me was that you know before the the before the Board of Health could make a decision on the title 5 applications that they needed to have a new
hydrogeological study or an improved hydrogeological study that's what she told me okay and our challenge is that while we're charted with our values of protecting water and all of that our jurisdiction we're we're it's pretty
much out of our jurisdiction now with the all the development being outside of it and that's our that's our difficulty that's our challenge so um let me ask um any more uh questions for Brian right at the moment um John do you have any questions
H how high a fence 5T for turtles yes well am I missing something no it's it's it's it's it's both it's both to keep the turtles in and keep people out I mean to five foot fence yep now now I
can also tell you and if you want I can email you don't email them nothing you know that right sorry sorry but but but there is I've seen a video it was just recently showed me a video of a turtle a big snapping turtle yeah climbing up a 5
foot high chain link fence and getting up and over it they're almost the same as a willow tree what the turtles okay Snappers are the same as a okay so yeah and this fence is going
to be at the 50 Foot um here you you see where I it's it's going to it's starting here um there's a stone wall there that goes up like that so there's an existing stone wall that kind of runs along the property line here and power lines at
the power lines we're tying our fence into that stone wall and then it's going to go around the limit of work for development to the right of way I think it's Overkill that's my opinion okay I five
foot fence like that is overkill I think it's Turtle protection 101 all right John Overkill because it isn't going to be pretty let's let John talk talk I think it's Overkill that's my opinion and I'm sticking with it you
have any more questions nope okay Bill no I'm good you good Mark nope Chris no questions Peter uh uh Brian and and David um the two things that we are talking about
with Board of Health there's actually two things one is the um Hydro Geo study and the groundwater protection and then the other is the approval of the septic system and they're related yeah they're related so we didn't mention this is is that is that really what they're saying is the Board of Health is looking for
this additional data that's that's what Donna told me before approving of the septic that was my understanding to be sure we're protecting the water um I think that's a fair assumption yes okay good yeah no questions Brian
okay so we don't have any more questions so now we can open it to the public for comment I know that uh I just want to mention that we have recently received recently it's been a month or so now um we've had letters from uh let's see back on February 3rd
we had a letter from Christy wood and quite a few others I won't list the names and I won't read through it but a nice long letter from Christy wood one of the abutters we had a letter from Ruth Luna on February 25th um and we had a letter I think it was yesterday from Christie also so we
do get uh we do get and appreciate that input but um I'm open to anyone from the public that wants to come up and speak on this uh on this uh permit on this application okay all right no more no no public input okay can I make a motion to
close the meeting you can make a motion second motion from Mark second from Bill all in favor um excuse me motion to close to close yes all in favor hi okay so the meeting is closed so I'm going to do
something a little different I am going to ask for a deliberation moment here for each of us to give some any commentary if you wish um on this and and and uh what your thoughts are on this before we before we make a vote um
keep in mind it is a um it's it's a public hearing so uh you got to be as factual as you can and less on on you know where you might want this to go but opinion so uh John do you have anything you want to add I think I said it okay Bill do you want to say anything I just
think that uh they we wanted them to stay out of the 100 foot buffer which they did um so I think we held to that and we uh and they agreed to it so I think that was a good a good way to go
that's it okay Mark that's pretty much what I'm thinking tter we're out the out of the jurisdiction there's nothing else that were involved in there other than uh what the Board of Health wants to do but uh that's up to them okay our PO is
done I believe okay Chris I'm good for now okay Peter um yeah I have a couple of thoughts and I'll make this quick uh I did a deep dive on our regulations and our bylaws uh because I knew Chris was going to
give me a test and I was worried I hope you're ready yeah um but I want to just make a couple quick comments from that review um first of all our rigs Clearly say we can consider input from other boards so we need to remember there's a chord water district letter floating
around uh we got it we know the planning board took action who else do we need David uh Board of Health is the big question we're talking about um so I think if we're supposed to be considering other boards it might be good to consider other boards leave it
at that uh Second uh in the permit conditions there is uh the trailer that was I think illegally placed next to River Meadow Brook but then what I saw when we were out there
it was demolished in place may not be a concom thing but I think that fits the town definition of of illegal disposal of solid waste um and we know trailers can have stuff that impact at least three of the
eight interests were here to protect drinking water quality avoid pollution and groundwater quality um so I'd like to see something addressed and I would assume that would be part of the Redevelopment plan but I haven't actually seen that specifically
mentioned and of course that does get wrapped into the Hazardous Waste invest investigation ordered by D and I assume the health department so maybe that'll be taken care of but let's think about that two other quick things uh our regs
say that plans need to have drought resistant trees and shrubs or minimize lawn I don't remember that one so we might think about you know whether there's a landscaping plan here um all I remember is lots of grass
and then there's one more quick thing um I just want to say this it may or may not be relevant our regs Clearly say the applicant has to tell us how their project meets our regulations and they go on to use the
word burden of proof it's up to the applicant not only to tell us how their project has they use the word environmental in our RS it doesn't say buffer doesn't say Wetland it says environmental impacts and they're supposed to tell us
how their plan meets our regulations it's not up to us to play this cat and mouse game we've been playing is it a vernole is it not our RS say the applicant needs to bring the expertise to tell us what the environmental impacts are so I want people to think
about that and a final point I know we keep talking about jurisdiction being whatever 100 foot buffer that is not how our RS read our RS has something called cumulative effects and our RS Clearly
say we and the applicant need to consider the effects this of and it's defined in the rags is basically properties nearby and in this particular case we know that we're in sensitive areas Wellhead protection Zone natural
heritage uh the EnV species stuff this whole Watershed is on the new state map of critical watersheds to protect going forward and the applicant did not mention that word cumulative effects and our regs Clearly say the applicant is
supposed to tell us the environmental impacts including cumulative effects there is no and the regs have a word credible evidence we can talk about what that means but we have no credible evidence except the RS say the opinion
of people on this commission and you David is credible evidence so the question before us is do we think this thing is impacting more than just where our jurisdiction is so I'll just say that for things to
think about going forward sorry didn't mean that to be a speech it's okay trying to make it short thank you I I knew you had something to say sorry that's all right um if I may David yeah
sure so I think I think from the commission's regulatory perspective I think this is one the commission can feel good about that uh everything was gotten out of the buffer zone that I think the rare species uh will be
protected to the maximum extent practicable you know under the statutes and the regulations uh the certified Vernal pool came out of this and and you know um existing uh
Disturbed areas within the buffer zone of the vernal pools will be restored so I think all of those things put together I think um you know things don't usually have this kind of a you know basically
happy ending with a project like this from my perspective I I do not disagree by the way despite what I said and In fairness I should remind everyone I can't vote yeah you you uh actually maybe I shouldn't have voted to close the
hearing you didn't I didn't see your hand I didn't say anything but I want to be clear it's like I agree with David everyone's worked pretty hard to meet most of the RS but it's this water pollution and cumulative effects thing I
would encourage yeah us to think about down the road and that's where not to go off the the topic at hand but we want to talk about um The Gap analysis that's being conducted that we're trying to participate in and we are also going to
have an agenda item or it's not on the agenda but we're going to talk a little bit about some changes to our bylaws uh going forward and this has made that clear to me that I think we you know to to give ourselves a little more that that's something we ought to think about so all right um then I guess we're at a
point where we've had our discussion I'll take a motion to so the conditions that's the question is the conditions that we've discussed already and you've had some discussion with Brian so the special conditions we think we have a good handle on it so the question
becomes do we want to vote to accept the conditions as you described them or do we want to hold off on that vote and that's my my question to the commission and maybe you have a suggestion on that David um well I know once we've closed
the hearing so the clock started yes so I mean I'm perfectly uh comfortable going ahead and drafting uh an order based on the conditions as we've been discussed with members of the commission and with Brian you know it's entirely up to you whether you want me to come back with the draft in a couple of weeks and
see it you know it's entirely up to you fine with whatever you decide Peter simple question how are we going to meet our legal responsibility to protect drinking water there's three
of the eight protect drinking water protect groundwater and avoid pollution how do we meet those three legal obligations this commission has without having the results of the contamination study and knowing whether this property is shedding well we know it's shedding
contamination because it's already been identified and that's our mission prevent pollution and protect drinking water so can we again no knowledge of legal precedent here but can we include that as a permit condition clean bill of health from the has waist people at the
state and our own Department of Health um yeah I I mean I I think what you're suggesting and was put in a previous order conditions is is that you know all all uh applicable uh permits shall be obtained from you know uh local and
state agencies is that that's so yeah put that in there we're talking about the cleanup on the trailer we're talking about the that was discussed the first meeting no John this has been listed by the state as a
uh one of the 230 hazardous waste sites in chelsford because of contamination found in the early studies so it's more than the trailer the pro the property was used for a refrigeration business refrigerants are known groundwater
contaminants the property there's evidence from the neighbors been told us that they've seen the property on dumping oil in the ground that's contamination 101 and there's some third thing going on out there well but specifically it's now an mCP due to the posos contamination
that's what tripped it right but but let's be super clear it is not limited to P the D order requires the applicant to study sample contamination and figure out if it's a problem and if it's not a problem we move ahead it's easy and if
it's a problem we don't want contamination spread into the drinking water okay so does that does that special condition the last one about complying with the other boards and yeah I mean that would definitely that covers it
right yes in my opinion we can vote on this with that added in to your other conditions and covers everything right the only question is do we want to review David's document or are we good with I'm good with it the way he's you're essentially already spoken Ed
some of this from previous ones most of this other than the chain link fence and the so I don't think there's a whole lot so Carl let me take a shot at a order of conditions so we'll um issue an order of conditions move to issue an order of conditions and we'll have special
conditions that address as we discussed previously the fence the 5 foot five fence um that's going to protect the uh the turtles well that's on the plan it's on the plan already so we don't really need a special for that do we no no that's just reverencing the plan okay um um I I I did I did ask Brian to make to
put the chain link fence on the habitat restoration plan okay so which he's going to do and how about the monitoring is that on the plans uh no no that that's there's there's there's going to be a requirement for that in the order conditions with some specific set of
requirements to include in the plan and um you know and then and then you know they'll come back uh whoever it is that's pring the plan will come back uh with that to me for approval and there may be a little bit of back and forth but you know I I feel perfectly
comfortable with that process we can work it out it's already been done with another project good good so the condition of the monitary plan be approved by our agent and then um restriction to lot four is that on the planet or do we need a special for that well I've I you are going to get me that
Declaration of restriction for par select which will also apply to lot four and then and then there are also in addition to that there will also be as a Perpetual condition um ex explicitly um
stated that there'll be no um further in perpetuity there will be no further alterations to the buffer zone on lot four with the exception of whatever is necessary in the case of uh immediate threats to human health safety and
property like if if there's a tree that's about ready to fall down then then would it also includeing BAS of management um that's that's a standard Perpetual condition yes yes all right so Perpetual condition to protect lot four um the restoration is that covered in
the plants now or do we need no that's that that that will require a plan to come back as well for restoration of the Upland or the wooded habitat in the buffer zone okay uh Perpetual condition to protect
lot four or the whole project lot four L four lot four because the Declaration of restriction that natural heritage is requiring on partiel X will cover that now that's not a conservation restriction but you know
I gather it's something natural heritage does frequently and it is just as binding you know under Misa and we're going to have the turtle protection plan as well yes okay yes and and and and the nesting area um
construction sequence okay within esting area construction and maintenance construction and maintenance sequence all right and then we're going to have a condition that says that the project the applicant will comply with all local
state and federal environmental laws and regulations and provide copies of permits you know and provide copies of permits issued pursuant to the aform engine or something is this prior to any building or any yes well well but slow down you can complain with the state
hazardous waste rules we saw this remember at 270 we can you they can comply with the state Haz waste rules and still dig up the site without understanding the contamination so do we want this condition to say well I guess our town calls it a clean letter from DP
I mean do we want this to be hey fix the problem because you can comply it's like a threeyear window you can do nothing for three years certainly and and this was put in a previous sorder of conditions as well you could certainly say that the commission shall
be copied On All corresponden or provided with copies of all correspondence between the applicant the owner and um you know d d and you know related agencies right but D in their haswa program does not um well I'm going
to say this carefully because it's not one I'm the saying is not could be argued but they're not looking at Redevelopment I mean they may require remember that the ram plan they may require a plan right but you can comply um there's lots of ways to comply
so the question before this commission is do we want to know if there's a contamination problem before construction starts or do we just want to let it run out through a very long State process in an era of state budget
cuts uh well I don't know if there's much we can do about that but let me let me bring up the uh pp's letter and just you know we can remind ourselves of what it is uh directing the applicant to or actually the property
owner to do um so mean uh the the mCP requires responsible parties to take necessary response actions at properties where there is or has been a release or threat of release of oil and or hazardous
material if you do not take the necessary response actions or Fable to perform them in an appropriate and timely manner Mass D is authorized by mgl chapter 21e to have the work performed by its contractors by taking such response actions you can avoid
liability for response action costs Inc incurred by mass de and his contractors in performing these actions and for possible sanctions which may be imposed for failure to perform necessary response actions under the E mCP so so I
mean if if uh the commission is copied uh on all correspondence between the owner and the applicant relative to this manner I would think the commission would be alerted um very early on about
what the course of action will be I think that's your concern no you need we need the LSPs here for this but response actions can be a wide range of things and again I'm not an LSP but I recall there's up to a three-year time period
there's different time there's different time periods for different things but it is not a d is going to get the site free of contamination in the next six months you could drag on for years and still comply okay so that's the LSPs job is to
figure out how to comply which is what this letter tell directs the owner to do but compliance can be a lot of different Pathways that do not necessarily they might but they may not give us assurance we're meeting
Our obligation to prevent groundwater pollution drinking water contamination it's it's complicated and I know this commission went through this on some of these other properties and I know it's it's painful but that's just how the law reads it's
not any Assurance to this commission that these words and so Peter what are you suggesting it would say or we would say in the condition the safest approach for the town to
protect the drinking water is to require this isn't the right word at the state level re require what's called a clean closure it's a letter from D saying yeah you did your response actions you did lots of sampling you've proven there is no
contamination leaving your property that's the process that can take years and that's the point if we're want to be really protective that's the point we need to be at if you want to be less protective you
can leave weak language like this or you can just simply trust the state process and again the state people are good but they're overloaded when you talk to them they'll tell you we can't get to everything so the question becomes is
this commission's job and this is the gray area it doesn't say this in our RS is this commission's job to be conservative because we're talking about a human carcinogen or do we want to be less conservative and allow development to
proceed I and that that's sort of beyond the scope of the commission I understand that but that's the answer to your question it's it's complicated well so I think I think then that that request would best go to the Board of Health yeah that's right to request that the Board of Health uh impose a condition
not allowing construction to start until the owner and the applicant get a clean bill of health for Mass DP the commission definitely does not have that Authority yes they they have closer to that Authority than we do I wish we did but I mean we can talk about that in the Gap analysis you know giving the
commission that kind of authority but and yeah and and I just I have to say this I want to be super clear how I feel I'm not trying to make a problem here it's just we all signed on to protect drinking water and you've got known carcinogens found on the site
our reg doesn't say Protect drinking water for stuff that's in our jurisdiction that's not what the regs say and the regs actually do say we can consider I think I think we I I hear you I think from my point of view we don't
have we don't have the latitude right now to do that I think it has to be we have to hope that and depend on the health department they have the jurisdiction yeah and I personally would be comfortable that we're addressing our um help me out here Chris you're the
lawyer but I'd be comfortable with that kind of action um demonstrates we're doing what we're supposed to do because we don't have you know the health department has that town bylaw so going back to Chris's motion and to the specific wording Chris
do you have I mean I'm just maybe we can add some words around the fact that they will not have any significant or accumulative adverse impact on our town drinking water safety you know as demonstrated by the hydro Geo study
that they're doing with the Board of Health I think that's that that's the key is like don't just say you know we have to have the basis for that Jud that's a little open in what you just added closes it tightens it down a little more um but that work uh I'm not sure
how it would work because it's within the realm of possibility that um not speaking for the Board of Health but I think it's within the realm of possibility that uh when the board when the board of Hell sees the result of the new and improved
hydrogeological study they may not feel that uh Title 5 systems are appropriate and therefore there would have to be sewer connections so I think the best the commission can do in the wording of the order of conditions is again say that all Board of Health requirements
shall be satisfied or you know and provided with all copies from you know same or something like that you know permits but requirements in the Board of Health bylaw not the Board of Health deliberations because sometimes they're different the BW says you got to have a
hydro Geo study that proves there's no impact that's what we want in our approval well we want the science to tell us nothing to worry about um but but I mean the Board of Health obviously has to make that
determination yeah so I see what you're saying I mean okay Chris again um depend reread or re repeat what you had last put down there for that part it was meeting I think I was I was just adding something
that said that a um applicant and owner um will not have any significant or cumulative effect adverse impact or effect upon the public drinking water of the town of chord and will be fully compliant with with our Board of Health
regulations as demonstrated by the hydrogeologic study and the Board of Health assessment of these septic systems and the contamination on site I think we're in trouble if we're not that specific well but we might be in trouble
if we are that specific well um and and if the applicant doesn't appeal it then it's okay but um you know I guess I guess I would feel most com able showing some specific wording to Town
Council and getting an opinion from her on that okay so can you can you draft up something that I can a permit condition yeah you know along the lines you've just been describing yeah and I would
like the commission before I do that to think about you don't have to do it now but uh how protective do we want to be of our drinking water if D says oh yeah there's a lot of contamination go ahead and clean it up
it's going to take three years do we allow the project to move forward well that's the question um you know I I I can just point to the email exchange that that I had with DP on you
know another address where where D asent and I can forward it to you D essentially said that that from the commission's perspective pasas anyway he's talking about pasas there may be other chemicals out here pias was not a
regulated chemical nothing the commission could do yeah and I've had discussions with the board of Mac or representatives of the board that tell me this is a gray area well because this posos thing is kind of new certainly didn't seem to be
a gray area with the EP but you know it may be all right we can work on that but I think we're talking about a permit condition to satisfy the commission members that we're meeting Our
obligation to prevent pollution that's the challenge here to to the ground water yeah to the drinking water the drinking water yes and and let's put a finer point I mean if it was just going into the turtle habitat not humans i' feel different but the fact is
it's a known human carcinogen this is the pasos and it's right next to the Wells and we're talking about needing more to pump more water in town which sucks more that's been the whole thing since day one on this is that it is right on top of the
water it's okay all right so so that means Chris's conditions will include or the conditions here that Chris is proposing will include a statement that Peter will write and send to David and share it with the rest of
us and and to say I would like to get an opinion from Town Council that would be good on your wording yeah because I don't I don't personally want to waste people's time if it's not appropriate why don't we um you had a question that you didn't
want to go too far one way either right you were you were concerned that we could be too specific is that what you meant earlier with the because we we're on the board of yeah I think I think too
specific in terms of getting into what are really the Board of Health UH responsibilities and that's why attorney needs to look at it I I think so um I just my my basic philosophy is you know
um not putting in conditions that are not compliant with the conservation commission's statutes and regulations um and and are unenforceable you know you know in addition right you know that
I don't is is there another way for us to to execute our responsibility by writing a letter to our Board of Health or even putting it in the permit this this whole thing is contingent on Board of Health doing your
thing you can you can certainly put that in that's one option that's the less conservative approach you you and and and there's president for that the commission did that with another project saying you know all all applicable permits and approval shall be
obtained from you know other locals state and federal agencies and copies of the associated permits shall be you know provided to the Conservation Commission we've got that in there right yeah yeah why don't we go with that I think
that's we go with that and it's it is what it is and does that say that our permit is contingent on the board of health process is that really what that words those words say yes which makes sense right the way our town is set up yep we've got this obligation but the
hardcore rules are with somebody else right right yep I think yeah so did you move that Chris did you just yeah yeah I made that motion motion I'll second what the hell does that motion wait AE wait a minute you're going to have to sort it out on the video right
let's let's go back through it one more time sorry it's a good thank you Vivian for keeping us on Earth here on planet Earth back to breath yeah all right so we're going to require that the applicant and the property owner comply
with all local state and federal environmental laws and regulations including our own Board of Health that's going to be one condition okay and then we're also going to have we're going to have a turtle protection
plan that's going to be filed and approved by our agent we have a restoration plan that's going to be filed and approved by our agent and there's going to be a restriction a Perpetual restriction and condition on
lot four as well to again to protect the turtle habitat um and we're going to have continuous monitoring of the site again to protect the the turtle habitat as well was that it I think that's it
that's the motion from Chris now second second from Bill and Peter has to abstain all in favor all all it's unanimous okay so do you want to see a draft in
two weeks or are you okay with me yes let's see a draft I think I think it's worth it let's let's review the draft in two weeks thank you very much okay thank you everybody thank you very
much oh actually I'm not going to hand these out everyone's leaving okay uh next on our agenda we have 61 Smith Street this is uh 61 Smith Street which is uh stop
there yeah uh Moren uh Harold is the uh representing the applicant yes so so Moren uh this afternoon Moren sent me an email okay saying that um she wasn't
sure that she could attend tonight's meeting she was she going to be pling to attend by Zoom she wasn't sure she could if um if she was able to it would probably be uh a little bit later so if you she said if she wasn't able to make
it all she requested a continuance so plenty on our agenda so if she checks in let us know okay yeah we we'll just come back to it if she if she okay comes on and and if she doesn't make it at all we just vote a continuance let's just sit sit until the end if that that's the
case Okay because it would be nice to close that one out if we can I think from what I understand we have most of what we were looking for I think so but I I'd like to hear from her yeah definitely absolutely yeah y absolutely okay next is on our agenda is so so just
uh Mr chairman so John what what is your [Applause] request oh that's up to you to decide Carl were you here under the the citizen concerns when I mean citizens concerns was brought up first thing in the meeting were you here then we were
caught with that uh emergency of the so 5 minutes late uh yeah that's fine yeah okay that's fine come on come on up and sounds like you have a citizen concern is that what I'm hearing yeah I'm sorry sorry um John Killy 38 dunshire
Drive um this is just quickly what's happened is you're well aware of all the flooding we have and all the problems we have on dunshire Drive okay and to my understanding you just approved the pallet Drive which is going to add more water to that area Swain pond drains
directly in s Pond is a buffer area for the large amount of money to come water that comes off rout three and everything else okay just recently someone asked to put a dam across the co that underneath
dunable road which um drains the P so apparently the DPW I I authorize the DPW to do that based on information I got back from so someone informed us or affirmed us you
that they never saw the water level this low I've been there nearly 50 two people did okay two people did and I'm going to show I can bring you Joe in a lot of people can tell you that we see it a lot lower and a lot higher the point is there's no way that I think anybody has
the authorization to just put a dam in because someone fails the water in their backyard is low when that Dam floods all the time the people live right there underwater and I can show you all the photos and you can see all the uh lawsuits against femur and
everything else I don't feel anybody had to write the damn up water away it causes a lot of problems and if you want to discuss it later right now we're coming into a wet season so you may have said okay we had a dry winter you know we had the driest summer ever last year we had no
rain we were shter your water take the dam out now because we don't know what the spring season's going to do we don't know what pallet Drive is going to do and we do know that the outlet of dunshire Drive is terrible take the board off for now see
what's going on for the summer I'm sorry if someone's backyard doesn't look as attractive because they don't have a little skim of water on it but when it does become a problem and they have to pull that board out not only is it difficult dangerous it floods us on dunshire Drive
terribly so what right you have to Dam up a a Waterway I have no understanding but I'm asking you to remove it now and you can figure out whether or not it's legit or not but as a this moment I don't think anybody has a right to damn it up please remove it do you need more
evidence do you want photos do you want any disc you want to hear from the neighbors who flood because of that Dam well are we going to have discussion on this uh I don't think we should have discussion on this right now could we just ask one question where is this dam
is it one controlling Swain Pond yes okay and it has no purpose what it's never there most of the time the people themselves put that there simply for their entertainment or their so right now they asked it to be put in DPW put
it in I'm just saying we get we have trouble ahead and when they going to pull that thing out we're going to get flooded terribly okay so just take it off for now until we just until you study it we hear you thank you thank you
so I did uh I just say one thing quickly I did mention to John that uh the next meeting there will be a presentation of the Consultants Watershed studies they they looked at three studies or three
watersheds um you know an analyzed the the issues and we coming up going to present recommendations conceptual recommendations about how to deal with them the dunshire area is one of the areas is and and I spoke with courin she said you know you know people coming you
know residents coming and giving public input it's fine and I think that's the most appropriate and just to be clear that's at 6:30 next at our next meeting we're starting a half hour early can c can can I just add that I think I have this right there was a a
flooding issue in this part of town and others and our DPW team stormwater and engineered team has taking a look at that and determined they needed a consultant to analyze how the water flows and this is the results of that
money spent on the consultant advice is what right and how to deal with the flooding issues thank you in those areas yes okay all I'm asking you is until the study is completed you let the water flow the
W there you okay discussion now is um in our agenda is the Peter you wanted to talk talk about the ban uh proposal to ban esgar s g ARS which is second generation anti-coagulant
rodenticides yeah I'm going to make this super quick I had to look it up I'll make it super quick so um I attended a workshop a week or two ago by uh our resident Wildlife rehabilitator Jane new house and if anyone's driven by her her
house and where she keeps the animals she's got a little sign about this but apparently the rat poison used by professional folks so it's a little black bait boxes you see around a lot of our town buildings
apparently the poison in those bait boxes was changed to something new at some point in the past and you can see this on Jane's website all the wild half wildlife rehabilitators in the state
apparently are seeing an uptick of animals that are poisoned by this stuff and it kills them so the city of L I think Jane was involved actually working with a pest control expert decided to not use this
stuff and Jane is has approached uh our town Leaders with a similar request and they're looking at it so what I was hoping our commission would do is and I'd be happy to do the work is write a super simple letter not getting into any
of this pros and cons just saying one of our eight interests is to protect wildlife and we are all in favor of Kinder and gentler or however you want to word it looking at Kinder and gentler approaches I don't think we want to take a specific position because none
of us have expertise but I thought it was a good opportunity for our commission to do something related to one of the eight interests we're protecting but and I guess it would be well it's whatever yall want to do if anything but I guess it would be a simple letter to I
guess Paul Cohen and I think our DPW actually runs the municipal building pest control program there's actually a written plan so we're talking just about town buildings not trying to get into to private
residents um so that's the pitch so there's a a specific proposal on the table is that correct my understanding and and um um I I talked to Jane and she's more than happy to come talk to us she's got a lovely presentation so I I hesitate to
speak for others but my understanding is she has approached uh DPW and Paul Cohen with this idea pointing out that L has done it Arlington has done it um it's a thing that's happening with with people that are into into Critters um so my
thought was to Simply point out that as a Mission we favor actions that support Wildlife which is part of our mission didn't want to get into any details because I don't in the letter because I don't know
them that's I mean if Peter can draft something up for us let's bring it in for the next meeting and look at it and we can vote on it then it's something we should support yeah but I think Board of Health thing uh this wouldn't be Board of Health I don't Bo of Health yeah
apparently um apparently the problem is sometimes children play and like open up these you've seen these little black boxes seen them everywhere track Control job in the country has them right what what what as I understand it there's no proposal to eliminate the black boxes it's just what you put in
them and you can put different and I actually met with a pest control guy um and there is a they're doing this in L they've banned him and he says he's got data you know that shows that the alternative works it's it's it's it's
weird it's vitamin D apparently and maybe there's some other things to make the bait um work I looked it up it's a thing it's real so that's the idea why don't you make a you want a letter and I'll get a letter and bring it look at it at the
next meeting yeah we can look at it and see if we're okay with it or not yeah but I would I would I would definitely suggest Peter you coordinate with Paul so that you know exactly what's being proposed well that's right exactly and um I didn't want to take it quite that
far as to say we support option A or B well but but at least drafting the letter in the context of knowing what's on the table I that's a good point find out if it's under our jurisdiction of the Board of Health First well we could still have an opinion yeah we can have an opinion on anything that's all we're
doing is having an opinion it's not our job but our but it's our job requirement changing the poison out is isn't our job and managing the pest control program isn't our job I don't and I don't I can't do that but but but advocating for
wildlife is part of our assignment and I and I'll touch base with the Board of Health or or Donna yeah to find out what their jurisdiction their involvement is and and John I didn't answer your question I I'm sorry I just did a little reading so forgive me I really don't know much about it other than I believe
Jane um apparently there has been cases of kids getting poisoned pets apparently if your dog mucks around on these boxes and eats a couple of these things what it what it does is it it's um an anti-coagulant do I have that backwards
it it prevents your blood from clotting so if you have this poison in it's like uh if anyone takes if you have to take a drug to whatever aspirin yeah U so apparently what happens is Critters get cut and they bleed out they just bleed out yeah or a dog eats the m
that's what happens yeah there's that and okay I should put a finer point you a hawk swoops in or an eagle pred come in and then boom you're losing the uh apex predators yeah thank you that that's the real issue is is it accumulates in the Predators you you're out there with your dog and right yeah
it's not about dogs I'm sorry John I wasn't clear it's about owls and Hawks and foxes and bobcats and Eagles survival so let's get a letter and and and if you can talk with the Board of Health David and and and maybe Peter if you can also check in with Paul and just
get a little Clarity on what I will what's looking at okay okay thank you um next thing I'm going to I want to talk about briefly oh no it's the lighting you want to talk about the lighting also well same story it we had um Mr Bey is
it yeah yes and and Chris mentioned this but I thought because Carl you and um Chris you heard talk at Mac about how lighting affects what we're supposed to protect so my thought was the same thing I think there's a town meeting vote coming up I don't know if I'm too late
to the dance but why why couldn't our commission write a simple letter to the select board and maybe even town meeting rep saying we support this initiative now we have to read that carefully because back to the planning board and John's point it's not our jurisdiction so we have to be
careful and there's I don't want to go so far as to say we supp support proposal X or proposal y we need to refer that to the planning board but the concept yeah it's it it is habitat we support because it's important town
meeting reps really to remember that and I'm picturing something I'm sorry didn't draft it something simple okay want there'll be time because the meeting is end of April I think yeah but the select board and the
finance board vote on warrant articles I've lost track of that schedule uh that's actually probably coming up so is there any way we can I mean I guess I wouldn't want to vote for it if I hadn't seen the letter yeah and and the um and the um the bylaw
seems to be fluid uh there were some concerns not necessarily about the um lighting itself but about how it's applied and and uh enforced uh that we'll be addressing tomorrow um but we'll probably end up
voting on it tomorrow um however I think that the board would welcome input and letters of support or not support from any other boards in town as part of that and What's the timing of that Chris do we do
we have we don't have another two weeks to draft a letter here um I will probably be the one uh presenting it to the other boards with Kelly uh I don't know when we're going to be presenting it to fincom and I don't know the
schedule for select board but it'll be between between now in town meeting um and we could mention it during those presentations um we could also mention it during town meeting itself um well
that's what I was really thinking one of you wanted to speak at town meeting as well and say that the the board supported or not that would be okay too well how about this can can I draft a letter that you all can look at at the
next meeting and then it may not get WR may not get in the select board's hands in time that's fine but we could then certainly for the ton meeting it would help um but it might get it might get there in time but let's let's do that and we can look at it at the next meeting I think I think in principle we
support it but it the devils in the details that's the well that's the hard part because if there's something crazy in the bylaw that we don't like yeah you can't turn lights on after 8:00 at night or something like that you have to stumble around in the dark yeah all right thank you all right um couple more
things that I want to throw in here um Chris and I had a conversation about um making some changes to our bylaws and um just bringing that up that I think it's time to do that last I think this happened changes were 2009 so
that sound about right that's what I saw so that's 16 years so it's time to to do that so if anyone is interested I know Chris has kind of raised his hand um and uh if anyone else had like to see two or
three people with David um working on this he got specific things you're thinking about well I mean hrth has really to me highlighted a lot of gaps hildr and um 270 B rea the brick killing project we've had a number of projects
that have kind of highlighted gaps and weaknesses in our jurisdiction so things like that I think there's also um uh we there was some comments about improving um wetland bylaws to include adjacent
Upland um resource areas um and also you and I talked about Trail work that um even just simple Trail work that we could add something in there about you know some of the proposed simple Trail improvements that we're looking at that they could be exempt and be explicitly
called out more explicitly called out than they are now so there's there's a handful of things and maybe with public input there might be a few other things so so that actually uh gets into mind question Carl would would you um be open to like having an interested resident or
residents um be involved as well uh I think so I okay having the public involved is generally a good thing um generally does that make it a public meeting and then do all of us no it
would be a sub committee I think it'd be a subcommittee well yeah and and work group and well yeah I mean officially designated subcommittees do have to comply with the open meeting law so let's figure out how to do this I don't have the answer right now um do a
working group yeah it could be a working group which because that's really you know in the end it's going to come up with a proposal and then we will vote to accept or modify or whatever and then I believe it has to go to town meeting right uh the the changes in the bylaw
would regulations would regulations do not so let let me check with the town clerk on that you know what what constitutes a committee subject to the open meeting law okay okay and then we can figure that out the next meeting we'll put it as an agenda item so if
someone's interested in that give it some thought and uh we can look at that I will because I don't want to have to deliver another lecture somebody will kill me we we don't want you to either agree agree um so couple more things
before we get get into our our next speaker here um there's a volunteer Fair um here in town on March 22nd and I'm considering signing up because they're asking commissions committees and town boards to participate uh Beyond just the normal
suspects in volunteer affirs and it's a Saturday the 22nd so not this Saturday but in a week and it's from 1: to 4 at the senior center I'm thinking about signing us up for that if anybody's interested in participating I would have to leave by 3:00 that day but if you if
you're interested let me know it'd be nice to have at least another person there is that a table Carl I think it'd be a table yeah yeah so I I don't think it's uh and it's also volunteer appreciation day um as designated by the
select board so um because we're all volunteers members of a commission and the select Board of volunteers and the planning board and um so they're they're kind of rolling what used to be the municipal meeting um open house into this session together instead of two
different things last year so you can go and get a a sweet treat is what I heard something from the um nishoba um Kitchen nishoba Tech kitchen I think they're going to have something there so um April townwide cleanup is coming up also so um clean up your
neighborhood um get out and clean up your neighborhood and then the other thing I wanted to talk about quickly was um agenda sequencing David and I talked about um putting Land Management at the top of the agenda for uh one meeting a month
probably our second meeting of the month um and because and and we'll have an opportunity maybe almost an opportunity next month because there's no new regulatory hearings similar to the planning board um so we still will talk about the hildr conditions but other
than that uh well and we'll see if um shows up we might we might see um we might have um the other one I would anticipate that that be that will be a short proceeding but yeah so um anyway we we would um the idea being that we're
trying to rebalance our Focus to some more focus on Land Management and not just as so much time on um on Regulatory and we could say regulatory hearings start at 7:30 let's say and I'm sure we can do plenty of
discussions between 7 and 7:30 and then at 7:30 if we're still going that's fine we just can't start the regulatory hearings until 7:30 so something like that and is I you guys okay with that now next next meeting we start at 6:30
because of the yeah and and that'll be half an hour so maybe we don't do it next time we just well but I think I think I think that might still work that if you know hildr and 61 Smith Smith if that could be done in half an hour take
the Land Management up at 7:30 I think that you just however you want however you want to do it next time yeah the 6:30 thing throws it off a little so I don't know how long that's you want to start at 700 and ending 7:30 right yeah I think time I think that's feasible yeah okay it should be feasible all
right that's fine okay I'm saying the Land Management thing you wanted to start at seven and yeah yeah the what you don't want to do is finish at 7:15 cuz then you can't start the hearings until 7:30 cuz that's what the posted time was that's Peter comes in that
that's you feel some time I me that in a nice way okay so we're going to tell what time the meeting starts so it's 6:30 our meeting starts at 6:30 okay um the
continual B business David let's keep moving uh okay so um Freeman lake so here's here's my uh initial stab at proposed locations of permanent
monumentation for the the the parcel um would of seven so Orient David this the lake is on the bottom and the street are here so this is let me let me see if I can zoom in a little bit on this okay um
so so this is uh 7th 6th and fifth so does everyone know where we're talking about at this point so this this this is the commission's parcel so uh again this is just my initial stab you know the the red X's
where I think it makes sense to put the per mon monumentation um yes yes there there are there you know fairly High number uh along the road here but I think it's
important for the commission to know in terms of like I know there been there's been some concerns about you know illegal parking and maybe you know putting up some sort of permanent barrier uh to either prevent that or discourage it or whatever so I think
it's important to know where where the boundary is uh along the right of way um you know for those purposes uh is it not the edge of the road it's in from the edge of the road uh correct if you see you see this this little symbol this
little sort of squiggly symbol here symbols that's act that's the actual pavement um and and so the the commission's prop property actually starts at though at the right of way so the solid line is is the is the right of
way um boundary or the boundary between the right of way and the commission's land so I think it's important to know where that is now let me see how many how many uh am I 1 two 3 four five six 7
8 nine 10 1 2 3 four five 6 78 nine 10 those are there's 11 11 so at 275 a piece that's about $3,000 so for one parcel for one seems like a lot to me it does it does can we
um can we get a we don't have to all go out there but I'd like to go I've been out there many times I'd like to go out there and with that map and maybe with I know you and I and Bill have been out there I think the one closest to 7th Avenue you need one at the point there
yep okay and and at the other end those two are important and the one where the widest part of the yeah land is like down by the lake down down at the lake yeah right there those three
are important and maybe if the road I can't see it really well from here 275 a piece Bill huh the 275 a piece I I'm just thinking the PO rail fence no you need those three because the issue on near 7th Avenue
there's people parking and down at the other end there's a dock yeah that we're not sure if whose land is on that's the key so those three are important to me the other ones
um that gets into the parking part you know and and the right away but without seeing it without going there sorry I think those three you you mentioned Bill are important but the one directly parallel to six Lane by the road yeah yeah that one
right there yeah I I want to be able to have it so if we have to tape off or to pull off a certain control point we can very EAS if you have those three or four you can measure good point you can have the plan and and you can right find other big deal they can go in and do it
right Bill you're suggesting putting them where people are going to potentially be using the property no that did I hear that right no because down on both ends there's a we don't know where where our land starts and stops so those are important because
people are parking on one end and people are have a dock on the other end so we're not sure if it's our land or theirs and the one by the closest to the lake that makes that triangle you can pull a string from the one closest to
seventh to that one and you know what a land is because there's a question there too of who owns what cuz there's boats there and there's different things there yeah makes sense I think that makes sense and I like your point mark about the the one point on the road because then you can use that as your
your control Point um my my thinking was say like here if if you have um monumentation here and here then it's just a straight line it's an actual straight line so any encroachments along that line should be
fairly straightforward to you know determine and the other end was a issue too yeah that's that's what that was that was the starting yeah that what started that's where Darlene really you know she's been on that which is true and we
looked we went out there and we couldn't tell it's it's yeah it's very difficult looking at the gis but but it but it's interesting on that right hand side it looks like the town property line um is just a continuation of Fourth Avenue edge of
pavement if that's the SC yeah that's that's the case for a lot of these Fourth Avenue is like a paper just it's not actually there it's not it's not there no nothing there that's right yeah that's why that's why it's so important yeah so so I guess what I ask
you know maybe mark this plan up you know with you know is this the only spot you were looking at or is there another parcel there there's there's another parcel as well that I haven't gotten to yet but I thought this was the higher priority yeah um so this is the
contentious one the most contentious one right although the other one actually has the most encroachments on yeah but we we had given some latitude to people to encroach on that but I think they've overstepped what we gave them platitude for is we can look at the what we said
and what we yeah if we want to change it okay so um how do we go forward um well I guess I I need to get some feedback from signs right can you send us that that file yes okay and then we can get out there and I I'd
like to just look at it with the file so where those X's are now people took is there a pipe or anything there to give us a steak wooden steak on the ground no there's there's nothing there so you do your best but at least you can
get eyes on it same people all right okay okay so so he's going to send he's going to send a copy around to us and then you can take it out there and get get out there
and look at it okay okay next up right thank you Land Management we have a guest speaker here one of our excellent o open space and recck plan committee members okay so
so he said it he was doing this hi Dave SP2 Long View Drive in here in tomsford uh did you guys get printouts of this guy so you can take notes on it otherwise I can pass them out for you guys I don't I
think we got I did not okay print out any I'm a person who likes paper um Carl so Moren just checked in do you want to take her first before you do this or does that work Dave yeah I appreciate that
Dave okay you there Morin not sure she heard there another one [Applause] wow Morin maren is on mute if she's hear us oh I yes I hear you do you hear me yes we
hear you okay you're about that you're on okay so at the last conservation meeting for 61 Smith Street the commission requested um some changes to the plan um one of them was to shade the
impervious area that's proposed to be removed um so we changed the plan to shade that area um that's 3811 Square ft um the second suggestion the commission made was regarding um the
surface runoff and the drainage down the driveway so we enlarged the infiltration trench from a 1 by one stone trench to a 2ot by 2T Stone trench
um let's see in addition um some of the pavers we're proposing to REM are proposed to be removed and return this area to Grass we're providing an average width of 11 ft between the driveway and the block wall
and in addition we're proposing to plant five native shrubs just beyond the block wall just to um protect that area from any type of um just surface flow during Heavy Rain events
um the infiltration trench and the lawn in the native plantings I believe will help mitigate any type of driveway runoff and prevent erosion and sedimentation to the neighbor's property and I can open it up to the commission with any
questions all right thank you Moren um John start no I asked about the uh going to the two foot next to the house yep she handled that I think that's going to be a lot better
off I I have no question no problems okay Bill Marin did you say you had a trench down the length of the driveway from Smith Street down on no so we so I discussed to my client
about that and some of that area um is vegetated and he want wanted to keep that vegetated um so that's why I didn't propose it um but the pavers beside the driveway are proposed to be removed and and we'll
return that to lawn so so that should help as well do you know what what uh is the driveway pitched one side or to the other or left to right or right to left do you know or is it that's a good question I don't have the foggiest idea
I'm not even sure if it's pitched it doesn't look to be on the topography on the plan right look kind of generic I was just concerned about the water coming down the driveway just running off into the back I think that was the big issue
um it the Asal driveway is there now it's going to be you've got a pile of fill is that on top of the driveway or you could you dug a hole there right for the foundation yeah so so part of the filing was an after the fact for the addition because
I don't think they realized they needed to come to conservation right all right um well they're going to have to where the pile of fill is when they do the uh is that addition a garage
right is the addition a garage yes yes a garage under and living space on top right so so I think Bill you you'd like to see the driveway pitch so that the runoff goes into that trench right right rather than pitch it all to the to the
right that can be put in as a condition all right and we'll have to you know uh obtain verification of that but that can be put in as a condition you know if they uh they can pitch it where the pile of fill is right in front of the gar uh
the proposed garage you could pitch that say to the left a little bit and have the water run I I think that'd be important it'll take some of the water away and the other thing I was I think we were concerned about last time was the
uh uh if you're going to do the work in the back first and put that remove the pavement you're going to leave the shed I guess right yes so remove the pavement and and uh restore that area before you do
the you know a lot of the work at the g at the garage and out front I think that was brought up at the last time yeah yeah I think we have to yeah so I mean if that was part of the condition to
sequence it properly stop the back get that restored take the pavement out put the grass back that'll cuz that's that'll take care of some of the water too while you're doing work there and stuff oh that's it okay that was
it no just to carry a little further on what Bill was mentioning on removing the PVE Pavement in the back uh I want I want to see that stabilized also with some kind of hydro seeding or something I'll keep that stable before the work
begins on the structure itself uh and that goes for uh on the left what see that would be the east or the west side of the house too you're going to remove all those pavers over there
yes and that's probably going to need some veg something to keep that stabilized also I don't know what the it looks like it's a flat area but before it and Beyond it there a a large too
change uh so the thought was to um remove all those pavers and return it to lawn um prior to the Pavers being constructed that was all la on there okay I I don't know what your point
is um just it's going to be stabilized with lawn that's that's it yeah be before construction begins I I want to see that that process done Mark I think what you're saying is you want to see the lawn fully established and growing before
construction of the garage begins I mean that could take you know fair amount of growing I want to see the I want to see this it's seated and if you have to put hay down I don't know what else should put on there just to stabilize it okay I know this
isn't after the fact and I think we're being pretty generous and just requiring that uh so so so temporary stabilization you know pending the grass again becoming fully established and growing
okay and with Bill up to about the uh right hand side of the driveway which would be the East uh that's pretty it's a pretty steep driveway you you you've done the calculations and you feel that's going to stay uh going to be able to absorb
all that groundw or surface water um so no no calculations have been provided um I can provide those to commission if you'd like um is this feed down with sensitive
area right no I I I understand that and that's why you we were trying to incorporate the lawn back in additional plantings um if the commission wants an infiltration trench along the right hand side of the driveway we can add that
well I don't want anything I want you to tell me what you're going to do well what I'd like to do is what's shown on the plan um if that doesn't work for the commission we can do the infiltration trench if the commission requires
calculations I can provide some calculations I want to make sure that this is going to work that's all if you think you need to do calculations I suggest you do them if you think whichever design is going to be
sufficient I'm not an engineer okay I'm not an engineer either I'm a wetland scientist but I can have an engineer review this and get calculations to you it's not a problem
okay let's do that I'm good okay Chris I'm basically pretty good with this I mean I like using the the vegetation approach to try to control to run off through the vegetation and the planting so I like that idea that's uh that's all I have to say Peter uh yeah there's a lot to like
two questions um Moren you the plan talks about planting shrubs and uh we ran into this in a previous hearing where I think the commission thought a shrub was a big bush and the applicant thought shrub was a ground cover can you tell us what size
shrubs or any further thoughts on what those shrubs ought to look like sure so uh what we'd like to do is plant native shrubs um generally speaking a minimum of 3 to 4 feet in
height um you know I can certainly provide the commission with a list of the of possible native shrubs um we could do anything from like high Bush blueberries cuz those are fun um we
could do Roto dendrum um but not it's not a herbaceous ground cover that's that's not the intent or the proposal good and I I'll defer to David if you want to specify that in any conditions and then I had one other
question um and I sorry I did not notice this when you were before us previously these block walls um I'm looking at the uh I guess it's the left side of the drawing which must be West and there's a block wall right at at the 25 ft no
disturb and I'm curious um how tall is that wall and is that a blockage to Wildlife which we're supposed to avoid it's a couple feet right it's yeah it's a couple feet anyways two to three feet yeah yeah it's not it's not a it's not a
retaining wall it's it's like a uh like a landscape wall block wall from the surface um and i' say to three feet sounds right uh just from my memory yeah and I guess my question I don't know if anyone wants to debate this it's getting
late but my question is was that wall installed when some of the other work was done that quote unquote should have had a permit and second well yeah you may know that but second I'll just make it quick does the commission do we want to allow
a twoot high barrier in that sensitive 25 ft Zone I think our ologist would say don't do that um so I'm sorry Marine I didn't mean to cut you off no no that's okay I I think I don't know for sure but
I think it was likely installed with the pavers um I can certainly ask the homeowner on that but that's probably what happened yeah um and of course it's up to the discretion of the commission if you allow it to stay or if you'd like
it removed yeah and I would just just ask my fellow Commissioners cuz I actually don't know the precedent do we allow 3-ft walls in the 25- Ft no dessert no disturb Zone especially when there's a wetland there and we know
walls block at least a little wild life and it's I think it's a long wall and again I I don't know what the site conditions are so maybe if you remove the wall you've got an erosion problem so I'm just looking for some more information I I don't I don't recall the
wall being 2 feet above grade I thought it was uh at at you know 2 feet above grade on the house side but at grade on the other side Well it can't be CU it's downhill on the uh this way the right
side right so so it could the the grade could come up flush with the wall here and then drop down 2 feet on that side rather than the wall just being 2T above grade on both sides is yeah but I guess the question more is what what do our
bylaws and rags and our polies well but but if if it's the case where I'm recollecting and I may be recollecting it wrong then it's not a barrier to Wildlife because it's it's at the surface grade on one side yeah that would that would be a win-win for everybody so am I thinking am I
remembering that correctly Moren what I thought that's my memory um I can get some pictures for the commission the last time I was out was with David but the in in when I flagged it as well that's my recollection but I I can get some
photographs yeah clarify that yeah and again I bring that up because the drawing does not show how long that wall is but just looking at this it might be a significant barrier if well I'm sorry if it's a significant length and a barrier then I I'd suggest we think
about that if it's not a barrier I don't have a concern okay I think the block wall on the left side of the house would create an erosion problem if you took it out because it's a steep hill right there it drops off PR drops right off I
mentioned that right yeah it drops off pretty fast block wall is set on grade huh the block wall is set on grade sitting on the grass on the ground on the grass there Stone on the bottom of it a little bit Yeah to level it but it's just on grade is that right yeah
two blocks I Mar five or six oh five and six yeah and I feel it's a broader question for this commission you go to the Mac training and they say don't do that you have erosion issues but you I
understand but there are ways to deal with the erosion issues yeah but this is a tough one because it's always when you're looking for after the fact file yeah yeah exactly so what I heard is um min's
going to get some calculations um from the engineer from our for the um for the commission for um the the water on the on the driveway and we have a question about this wall so if we can get clarification on that and I just had a couple comments
yeah so uh anything else before we go to David um yeah my concern like I said was the all the water coming down the driveway it all pitches towards the house then you've got a twocc car garage with a a large area Asphalt in front of the
garage how we're going to pitch that or how you going to take care of the water that comes down the driveway comes in that area is it going to go off to the right is it going to go into a drain of some sorts so you'll have to decide
based on your calculations the best way to deal with that water but there's a lot of water coming down there and the other thing that I was concerned with just is sequencing from the working from the back of the house rip ball of pavers up put the uh Loom down seed it stable
ize those areas before we got out before we get out front and start digging the foundation and doing all that work because it's going to be a real mess if you rip up the pavers dig the foundation and you're going to do all the the Landscaping at the end it's going to be
an issue there's too much area so sequencing and getting the place the pave is pulled up get it you know 75% back to where it should be and then take on the addition and then the driveway in
front of the house and the drainage is a almost uh separate from getting it back to where it should be does that make sense okay that Mak sense I can provide the commission with a construction sequence or put it on the plan right
either or and then it's it's clearly stated so there's no confusion I'd say put it on the plan well yes and and and again a standard condition is that I meet with the contractor prior to the S of construction one of the things to talk about the
construction sequence so but some on a job like this the guy would they're going to want to do it in one shot at the end where I think on this particular project it's it's two different right things so so yeah so I think doing it before they do anything on site have
that meeting and make sure the contractor understands and is agreeable treaty addition is a separate from restoration of the area after the pav is are pulled up that's yeah that's a good way to put yeah and then if you want to uh bring some photos of the walls we can make the determination whether those
walls should stay or go okay so um I I I just had a couple comments and a question so and I think this has already been clarified so so where it says remove remove pavement and
remove pavers that's all going to be replaced with lawn that's correct um okay um second thing is mar I'm I'm fine with whatever proposal you make for the species for the shrubs okay um but but what is when it
says allow area to neutralize what does that mean that is a typo it's supposed to say naturalize I will have that fixed you so that's all I had okay all right
so I think we have some good uh actions for the next meeting but it sounds like we need to continue this um Marin does it sound reasonable to have you come back at the next meeting in two weeks yes that would be great thank you so just remember that David likes to we like to get David uh
the information to him um by next Wednesday so that's a week from tomorrow yes okay it's not a Long window it's a short window car we continue this hearing until our next meeting of March 25 motion from Chris second from Mark
all in favor I I okay thank you very much Moren thank you have a good night we continue that to the next meeting and so we are back to our regularly scheduled
program where were we Dave sper great uh you probably remember from previous Land Management reports that the town did uh open space and Recreation plan uh which was hosted by this committee and uh that process completed
at the the end of the year uh I've come to talk a little bit about nature trails uh and accessibility on conservation land in the past we've done some things wrong so we have an opportunity to correct things so the
reason why I did the the paper uh is just to be able to have a point of reference for you to go back to because we're going to be learning some things today okay uh so uh the state requires us you can go ahead and put it on the the first
page okay for the osrp the state requires us to create a Ada self uh evaluation plan uh it means we need to go out and visit all the recreation areas owned by the town
and the open space areas and evaluate them for Ada uh we had four volunteers step up uh and help us out uh all of them long-term Veterans of cost uh we did have a gentleman's agreement with leader of
cost not to post any of the findings on social media while this is going on that's why you didn't see much along those lines uh I handed you a copy of a big table that's actually what we sent the
state for just uh the cranberry bog there are 174 valuation points points in the the standard uh thing but for us we're really really interested in
about 47 of them so it it really shrinks things down we don't have a lot of swimming pools uh and other things like that that we have to measure showers and all that so we're lucky there uh so uh for the Conservation Commission
thought process what the state wants is basically ADA Compliant stuff from the handicap parking spot to any of the amenities at the trail head and to the trail
head once you get to the kiosk at the trail head and the kiosk should be accessible so you can read the signs everything beyond that follows us far Service rules and there's a whole large document that we won't get into on that
I'll just pick little pieces of it uh the rules are different uh once you get over that because it's meant to be a nature trail uh so uh we did 36 Town Open
Spaces uh and uh 11 of them were Conservation Commission one second go ahead and on to the next page sorry about the the Deep wording but this is actually meant for you to take home and put by your bedst so you
can study it or go to sleep at night um so in the US Forest Service guidelines which we'll call FS tag uh from 2013 uh class five trails are basically
your Ada spec Trails they're going to be decking or paved and whatnot uh the class 4 Trails which what we're going to be talking about here are considered highly uh developed it relaxes some of the Ada
specs uh one of them is obstacles in the path if you have a route or something in the trail Ada requires it to be less than half an inch the for Service rules say that it can be 2 in before you have to remediate something on
that uh you can also have uh a 2-in roote but if you have a 36inch clear path around it that's fine also okay it's a nature trail it's not meant to be purely uh a straight path your nature
uh and uh let's see the other oh the other thing that we have to watch out for is slope like usual but it's different than Ada uh they have a very complex about 10 page on how you do slope and cross slope
and do resting areas and all that kind of fun stuff for a full-up uh accessible Trail uh and then there specific signage that should be applied and we'll have pictures that momentarily uh so the class four Trails
over on the right uh is just right out of their their book uh it's for families casual Walkers some wheelchair users not everybody's going to be able to get through it uh and it's okay to have Moder really
challenging for elderly people uh using the trails okay and you can design your trails to be various levels of difficulty for the exercise experience so so strictly speaking class 4 is not considered to be uh compliant
Ada uh there is no such thing as an ADA Compliant Trail okay okay uh because ADA rules don't apply the trails okay once you're pass that trail head and into a natural area
uh the different set of rules apply but but class five is the same as Ada right if you want to go that far you can okay so the ra the rail trail would be like that right correct am I right okay right uh the rail trail is classified a little
bit differently because that's mixed use uh but for what we're going to concern here uh the the the trails uh you can go all the way up from a natural thing to a mildly paved road if you want to a
walkway in there uh it all costs money and that's what it's going to come down to in the end um then I I just put a paragraph here reference of what Mass Trail grants wants if we want to go out for Grant to do work uh the the big takeaway from the
mass Grant people is that there interested in connectivity does your accessible path lead from one accessible area to another accessible area and connect two things that are important uh and then the other thing is
what is the person that's using the trail going to see okay there has to be something interesting for the person that's actually using the trail uh to spend the time going out there you just don't dump them into the middle of a swamp it needs to be kind of a wildlife
observation area something well yeah cuz that's kind of subjective I mean some people love looking at swamps right okay and we've got plenty of opportunities for that around here uh I'm I'm sorry the the grand opportunities that you're referring to Y um the connectivity is it
connectivity as you mentioned within a given parcel like from a pond to a lookout or do the emphasize connectivity between separate conservation Parcels that maybe are not adjacent uh they like the adjacent more okay sure uh but
they're also interested in making sure that yeah you can connect things internally you can you can see the cool stuff right so so I would think that a connection say to the rail trail would be a huge priority or or a very high ranking okay project even to a sidewalk
is high ranking okay because now somebody can use the accessible sidewalk to get into the nature area uh okay next page I'm going to give you some examples um
so in the top left uh that's an actual sign from one of the trustees of reservations uh Trails they call it universal access uh Autobon has a similar set of rules which they call uh all persons
Trail and and the center picture is actually a picture of one of those Trails uh the trail is not ADA Compliant uh but on the sign that you see there on the left they say where it's not compliant so people can see oh
do I want to do this Trail okay it's got some seep sections they know okay and they can decide whether or not to do it it's got a little excess cross slope okay they know it they can go uh so that's kind of important that
something we've never thought of before uh so as we venture down this road we have to think along those lines uh over on the right is uh what they consider an accessible uh information kiosk it has to have the
packed uh gravel around the bottom so a person in a wheelchair that that has to be up to 8 as spec so that's the edge of your uh trail head uh any thing that a person has to touch they have to do it within the
wheelchair 2 feet to 4T range uh so you can see that sign basically uh fits that and there there's like two pages dedicated to that in the specifications so but I mean someone in a wheelchair would kind of have to go
like this to read the top that young man is straining his neck yeah yep but that's uh the the the spec is this ceiling here uh has to be a
minimum height okay don't bang your head okay oh um so that's the combination of things that we have to worry about uh I don't know of any kiosk that we have in town that actually meet this at this point
but we also have a bunch of kiosks that are due for replacement yep so this is going to be as you go don't jump on we'll bring things up so can I ask a question sure Dave you you mentioned the uh trail head things change at the trail
head as far as handicap yep right so should the kiosks that when we redoing some of the ones we have are putting new ones into the handicap uh should they be at the trail head as opposed to I know some of them are
uh near the parking area as opposed to the trail head like Oak Hill the parking area is uh quite away is away from where the trails really quart of a mile yeah so should the should the kiosk actually be at the trail head you can declare the trail head basically anywhere you really
want to uh say to be consistent I mean we're trying to be consistent if trying to be consistent uh the for service usually says the trail head is where you leave the parking lot okay so for Oak Hill kill is pretty unusual right right you park there's the
kiosk okay right um so it it's actually reasonably good uh yeah except then you walk down the DPW driveway and and you go for a ride pass the solar field yeah and then you get to the bridge which in my mind that's when you start the trail right
right but the bridge is not compliant because it's too steep yeah probably yeah uh so we yeah I'm just I'm just saying if in the future we start putting more keyos up or replacing some of ones we have should we we should keep it in mind
where the placement of them well maybe when we do the inspections and you're going to or the evaluation Ada self evaluations uh part of the the training is you start at where the parking spot is because you have to take all the measurements of the the parking spot and
then you have to verify that there's an accessible path from that parking spot to the kiosk okay uh and any other amenities that are there that would be visited like a porta potty things like that uh so if you put
the kiosk far away you have to do the path that much further right okay but that's that's left up to the the designers yep okay and how you want to implement it uh any other questions on the the design
stuff here out of out of the 11 uh reservations H how much of this do you want us to carry through on all of them I'm I'm I'm getting lost on where we're going to start oh we're going to talk about that in a little bit you're you're good lead
in okay I want to know where Disneyland stops and my and trails begin and and that's really going to be up to you and the volunteer base okay and where money is uh really want to go after lwh
hanging fruit first yeah okay uh so go ahead and do the next page Dave so here's one of our typical Trail heads uh I've used this slide a few times
um we don't have a clear path around the bottom of the kiosk uh and we're not doing a good job of keeping the area clear for people to actually see things on
that uh and for years we've been placing rocks at the trail head to prevent ATVs they also prevent wheelchairs so we need to be able to get 36 Ines of clear path uh between the
rocks or more okay uh so if we were just to move the rocks and clean the the soil around there a little bit we'd gain another 500 ft of accessible Trail cuz it's already
paved and nice and flat all the way to the back parking lot there that's a relative freebie uh with one little tractor move so they're going to be little things like that that we can do uh okay questions on this kind of
trail head okay go on to the next page so if we continue down the road in russle Mill uh the state didn't require this uh but
we had people that went a little extra to say okay how far can we take this relatively easily uh and you can see that there are some uh Scenic spots on the left which would be
points of interest to go to uh nice flat areas you could put a picnic table uh on but you there's some obstacles in there there're areas with small Roots uh probably some of them would have to be
remediated uh some wouldn't uh we've got an area with a cross slope uh that would take more investigation to see if we wanted to do something there uh and then we do have an area
further down with some 5in Roots uh again it would be up to if you go forward you have to actually go through and and do a full plan this is just a a quickie how viable is this this
spot uh any questions on this example we'll do a few more okay cranberry bog so this one's got lots of little hanging fruit also uh We've basically got the rock
that needs to be moved over a couple inches uh and then a large portion of the the path is almost where we need to be there are some little rocks that are sticking up more than 2 in but there's a path to get around them
so they don't really need to be remediated there are some low spots that need to be filled in uh there's some Volunteers in town that know how to fill in those spots and pack them down we just need to learn how to pack a little better and
get the materials and get trained up on that a little better uh going down to Dam one uh there is a hill that exceeds the Ada uh requirements has got some roots
on it uh we'd actually have to go in there and measure it to see if we have to do something uh might not have to uh could be that uh we do a little side Trail to
that uh go on to the next so so how would you deal with the roots just cover them up you can cover them up uh if they're minor you can cut them if you need to
uh the big thing is just to find that 36 inch path uh yeah so then it becomes there's a possibility of a trade-off of a tree Health versus accessibility right but if it's yeah so we have to make those
decisions that's where the the detailed design comes in yeah okay uh this is just the the first pass at what can we can do so if you the next page is the same thing on a map uh it's really low hanging fruit to uh
do the first part of the cranberry bog uh out to the hill for the dam and there's also a nice little uh Mound that you put a picnic table and make it an OB observation spot and if you to take the trail around that observation spot you'd
avoid the hill with roots okay that could be an eag Eagle Scout project uh the big thing is we have to to dice it up and say okay we can have Scouts do this we can have uh volunteers do this
we can have the DPW help out on those types of things um any questions on the cranberry bog to get the high uh Wildlife observation
experiential yep very good for that yep okay uh Redwing uh for that one our it's a nice open place for photography uh but we have our typical
trail head problems uh never thought of ADA wise uh there's a hill going down a little too Steep and it's grass they don't want the slippery grass for accessibility reasons so we' need to put
some kind of stone dust in there uh probably can't go straight it' be too steep so you need to come over with the design to say okay let's go this way and into the garden and okay it it takes
more thought to to actually doing it uh if you go on to the next page and we talk about connectivity on that the backside does hook up to the rail trail so so there is an accessible
entrance there uh that's going to take a fair amount of Labor to even it out enough yeah to accept a uh powered Mobility device or
wheelchair uh it it it would be good though it' probably be good uh and you need some advocates for it and you'd have to actually come up with a uh design saying yeah we're going to take it this way and see
what the actual slopes are one of the things with the Ada evaluation from the state we're not really supposed to recommend changes or design changes we're just saying this doesn't meet that uh this does meet that
this go we're going a little bit beyond uh what the state required more into the transition plans but throwing thoughts out there to get other people started and thinking about this okay last slide and there's much
rejoicing southwell nature trail uh this is not conservation uh property but it's an interesting one uh because it was originally designed and built as an accessible Trail back in
1999 uh they spent almost a quarter million dollars in today's money uh putting in a th000 feet of trail on the nature trail side and another 3,000 ft of Trail around the
fields and around the river uh and when we did our inspection of it we never realized that they're originally Ada Trails uh we just recently found that out earlier last
week how did you find that out uh archaeology archaeology town website archaeology wow okay there's a decrepit sign on the back of the park that says southwell Park okay it's Fallen pieces
well you do southwell Park uh on the town website and up Pops the vinyl square uh action plan for 2014 and a huge description of it was right in there uh leading to the Friends of
southwell Park uh that did the fundraising for it uh and the actual Financial numbers that were in there then of course we had to ask the knower of all knowledge Facebook uh and we had a lot of people
chime in say oh yeah it was all built out it was really nice okay but the invasiv have come in uh and maintenance is a problem so when you're you're thinking of doing an acccess uh you want to make sure that it's easy
to maintain and what the trustees of reservations have done uh and I think autobond is doing a similar thing when they make a trail they make it wide enough so they can take a mower down the left and right side of it uh just to keep the invasives
chopped down uh easily instead of having to go in there by hand every few months with a volunteer crew to to chop things out uh so when you design these things you do need to think about recurring maintenance so I guess that's the lesson
the the bottom sentence is the lesson to be learned right um now the the trail is actually not that bad a shape so probably a bunch of
volunteers could go back in there uh and in a couple weekends make it accessible again okay with a little bit of uh help of material from DPW so we do have a confirmed um support
from Christine and DPW to help um Trad some emails with her so right another thing that uh when I was doing the uh observation here there was a a a class being held out in the space and they had taken uh their their shorty bus CU they
could get in there and park and it was relatively quiet and they could lead the kids to the the table there and they could be drawing what they were seeing and describing what's going on in nature and the teachers didn't know what
poison ivy looked like okay they asked me to to point some out for them okay so they'd really like some kind of information sign for for basic stuff that we take for granted yeah uh I've also seen this in Scouts one of the first things you do with a
brand new Scout is point them to that's poison ivy leaves it three leave it be right and you let them go around and find it and point it to you and all that uh so if you're going to go for the education point of view Sometimes some
of the real simple things okay is very powerful uh did I miss anything else out here I think we're good uh questions on this I I was just going to make a comment probably a lot of us have walked
that trail on the marac that's an awesome place if I were needing an ADA Trail isn't that like check off all the boxes you've got beautiful water and nice view and right and it did 25 years years ago
Bingo okay uh we lost track of it it got away from us uh that that's one of the things with the capital plan coming up they've earmarked some money for uh doing ada8 but that has to be spread among all the
Open Spaces there's stuff that needs to be done at Hart Pond yeah uh and we got to figure out what's the best for our community for right and there's a big there's a big number in the upcoming count town meeting warrant isn't there
or in the budget for DPW support of ADA compliance or is that more the playgrounds uh that can include playground but it's really mostly earmarked for open space uh there are some uh areas in Town
recreation wise like Highland field that is very non-compliant Ada wise uh and that really needs to be addressed uh yeah so I not not to beat this to death but I know uh Steve uh Callahan I think has been doing a lot of
through DPW a lot of ADA stuff at the playgrounds um who's leading the decision making on the open space is it us do you have a communication with DPW where you're setting priorities we're we're in a vacuum at this point yeah
okay uh I I just put through this together for Carl cuz I had the the stuff got it from there uh and there's educational stuff that needs to be walked into this we know there's a lot of lwh hanging fruit here and that's kind of my question Carl kind of what do you think the next steps are for the
commission so I guess for us we need to be endorsing this and you know we David one of the things we didn't talk about yet David but you've sent out notes to the a lot of The Scouting leaders in town saying you know we're we have a lot of opportunity for projects and so these
kinds of projects that Dave's identified I mean what what that assessment did for all the conservation properties but even all of the open space properties is identified a lot of very loow hanging fruit projects that uh DPW can do
volunteers can do organizations like Scouts can do if a church comes up so you know cost can do this you know everybody can do do some of these projects cuz there's there's a pretty well documented uh set of uh opportun ities here great right there there's 300
plus Pages worth of the report uh it's in the state mandated format like I handed you we can we can tweak that to be more user friendly we can tweak that we give the state what they want so we can get grant money uh and it's a
baseline okay it's not 100% but it's good enough for getting us going and where we support or we sponsor the open space and wck plan that's why I wanted to talk about like southwell Beyond just the conservation sites you know we're certainly our our first
interest is the 11 conservation sites but you know the open space and wck plan is for everything in town and so that's why I think it's important that we support all of that so between you know Dave and I've had some conversations about this um there's there's a lot of people interested in helping here I
think I think we can make a lot of progress I haven't get to the point where I think we need to formally have a committee or subcommittee on this yet but we might you know that might that might be the right thing to do at some point it needs to be coordinated so that
it's not done peace meal it's got to be this needs to be direction to how you do it right and get start and we don't have a clear Direction yet we have we have the findings some good ideas uh we need public support to what the public
wants we we have opportunity good job so Dave thanks for doing all oh you're welcome Dave does great research and digs down into the details and um and I want to thank Beth for helping me out uh
doing number of evaluations yeah uh we found that different set of eyes would find different things yep uh and everybody that was involved in doing the the surveys found it very beneficial because they got to go to parts in town that they' never been
to and and look at things that they've never had to look for before even places you've been many times and you suddenly look at it differently too right the uh disability commission was involved as well uh right they provided us the initial training yep uh and while we
were doing all this data collection we had a Google drive out there that Commission on disabilities had full access to and could see the data coming in uh as all of us on the committee or
not on the committee uh could enter it I think as a Conservation Commission Now that we've got a lot of our big projects behind us this is the stuff we should be kind of doing more of and let the regulatory stuff kind of come and go as
it does we have to do the regulatory but yes I know but but we we spend all our time on that now and very little time on this stuff and I think it should be the other way around you didn't hear about the permit moratorium there's a 12-month
permit moratorium yeah the planning board's singing it already so the big thing here is just the initial education yep yeah if I could just add I mean my thanks I was on the open space committee with you and I watched
everybody and your team do an incredible amount of work I me it's a lot more than what is summarized here so thank you for that and the team thanks thank you everyone thank you okay thanks thank you appreciate it Dave so you'll start to see more we have to
figure out exactly how to mobilize going forward I I agree with you Bill that uh more deliberate approach how we do it but there's a lot here and so how we we might want to do a quarterly you know every quarter do a review put this prominently on our agenda and look at it
every quarter yeah this I mean the the three or four that Dave showed those people could almost start working tomorrow you know I mean the DPW if we say go move these rocks put some blue curving here and here I think cranber B we know exactly where we want it some of
this stuff's very like like you know shovel ready kind of stuff not everything but some of it is but but but in terms of pulling the trigger you mentioned you've got some I mean you have the authority as our chairman don't you to work with a volunteer group that
would like to do a project and just say make it so or even the even the agent can you know I we need to share some of this with David so I mean he's seen a lot of it from being in the committee but the details right you know if somebody if a scouting leader came to Dave and said hey we got some kids available this
weekend and he'd probably say he'd probably say let me get Dave SP which which is probably fine you know um hopefully scouting leaders give us a few weeks of notice um but we can probably come up with stuff fairly fairly quickly yeah I know Phil has a lot of stuff
involved in there he's he's very involved in that and he has ideas is and all that so you we can we can make all this we can make it work we can make things happen so okay nice thanks great
job good stuff really good stuff um Kess update um well nothing much other than David and I are in discussions with subre Valley I'm just continuing to work on the due diligence yep the preliminary stuff um prior to really getting into the CR trying to get all that stuff
stuff so there's stuff happening I've seen I've seen subur Valley people twice or three times in a week twice in a week yeah half the big tree fell down oh we did saw that yeah that's the the one on the right one they oh the Big Oak not
the big Oak there's one up on the hill oh okay yeah that's one that the uh the friends of koulis were really working hard to preserve and take the invasives down and the last I think it was the last Windstorm I'm going to guess did a number on it that's too bad they worked
hard on it were they thinking it was weakened by bitter it was all rotted yeah oh it was all it was or did the Bittersweet kill it I guess is that's looks pretty dead if you look at it it's been dead for a while yeah it's partially fallen down I think right some of the whole thing fell down okay the
rest of the trees there yeah yeah that's what I meant yeah yeah um the other thing I wanted to mention a couple things on Land Management so um David and I talked briefly in fact Dave sper and I were out there at Crooked spring there's a couple of sections of trail
that have been perennially underwater and they're 150 to 200 ft that if you walk that site I'm sure you're there Chris you know right where I'm talking you leave the parking lot and right as soon as you leave the parking lot within about 50 ft you're under water you're in the water in the springtime winter
spring you know whatever and then around the other side of the pond it's the same thing right on the pond it goes right up to the pond and so we we marked out a couple of ways to reroute the trail off the water and we're going to talk through this David's going to talk to
the um who are you going to talk to about trying to figure out if we're going to do an RDA or not on this uh I was going to consult the bylaw but yeah I I I I know that there's an exemption for trails in the WPA okay um and and in the bylaw though I think it's just for
private trails which doesn't make a whole lot of sense but I'm going to go back and take another look at it but the um so if if you happen to get to Crooked spring you'll see cuz we taped it off with some little little ribbon tapes that'll just show where the trail would
reroute and it's pretty actually as of Sunday it's still very slippery cuz Steve mayot fell twice while we were there and uh so it's it's still I don't know maybe today was pretty nice so maybe it'll be better but um but it's it's uh it's an opportunity to make an
improvement there get away from it doesn't mean you can't walk down on the water and look at the water but it just means the trail doesn't go there it just means that it's going to get it out of the water so so we'll we'll take a look at that that might be might be before us um coming up and the other thing is that the Thanksgiving group that's doing the
pollinator Garden they are really getting motivated and um there are some Norway Maples that they want to take down I think I mentioned this before in this meeting um and we're going to try and connect with um Christine uh the
tree Warden and get there and see if we can figure out how to make that happen and they have a whole replacement plan we'll probably might even have them come to the next meeting um to present that because there's a there's a replacement plan for that and um and one of our
neighbors is uh coming to the podium hi Dave Sperry uh chord land conservation trust happens to be be a butter to that uh Garden there uh we're not exactly sure where the property line is agreed uh for where the trees would be taken
down and all that uh we're very interested in and possibly in the future improving that site okay uh to fix up the canoe uh area or even possibly longterm put some kind of observation
deck out onto the water uh that would be accessible uh but that's a year or two away at least yep uh but finding out where the property lines there would be very very helpful for us yeah so one of the the other abutters so the land trust
the Conservation Commission and um I forget her last name Robin um next door she owns the land right next door so she's the one that's all over getting rid of these Norway Maples so we're all I think in agreement with that kind of a thing but we would definitely want to have you uh the land trust participate
in that as well because we can make it a everybody on the same page kind of a situation it's a really nice place uh you see a lot of kids learning about the water there yep uh to
make it a nice Learning Place yep Carl and Dave the the reason for the uh Norway maple tree removal well because they keep starting to infiltrate into Thanksgiving forest and they're spreading all over there and
Inc in fact across that Park area if you want to call it a Park area where the picnic table and all that the trees we're talking about are on the left looking at the water but if you look to the right is like a little invasive Grove that I'm pretty sure a bunch of them are saplings Y and
it just let's get rid of them and they and she's come up with a plan that includes replacing them and some Fria as well with some other stuff that would go in there and um we may come up with some money we'll talk about that some native like stuff yep yeah is this is might be
a little bit too much of a tangent but wasn't Thanksgiving Forest the location of a very old Conservation Commission project to deal with the fact that the trees are all the same age and that's not good for Forest Health and there was a clearing made I heard that story I
don't know the history of that but I think there was some kind of a forestry plan yeah and and what I'd like to just mention the reason I brought that up is um it's been on my action list I haven't done it but the the state DCR Regional Forester supposedly will
come and consult with us on some of these Forest management things one could consider to improve the health of a forest and those Fringe areas that you're talking about and all that land that the trust owns right on Mill The
Mill Pond I think right is all connected right that's what I'm saying it's all and then of course it's connected to carot to Great Brook Park and then it's connected to the cranberry bog so it's like an awesome it's a very connected to some awesome land it's a very important Wildlife Corridor thank
you y okay um agents report David I don't have anything else anything else okay uh did you have any EV event requests you had something yes that's that's right so um thank you Carl so I I approved a couple
of uh event requests from uh yet another m u mountain biking um Club let me just check who that was uh
quickly uh uh this was for Russell Mill yeah so that was um Dynamic cycling Adventures is that biking Club so that
was for uh June 28th and 29th and October 18th and 19th this is a Vermont bicycling group judging from the address yes interesting so um why do they want to
come here I guess they've heard a lot about it they've heard you know from nemba doing the mountain biking and we've got a really good reputation out there evidently that's the case because I mean that's a ways away to come from right eastberg
Vermont so um one thing to consider if there a business then I know from talking to Christina we need to get a copy of their insurance and they say we have that already so they must have they must have um done another event last year I just
didn't remember that name uh let me check I just also asked when we talked about this I asked if you would let the NBA guys are our our local number guys know about it just so that they're aware Carl
Who are the friends of chord conservation reservation I don't know what that is which is on this form at the bottom or is that just an old uh let me let me let me very bottom to
that um well this this is actually not those are donations that's not the most no it says return to cheler conservation the friends of cheler Conservation Commission that should that that should be changed oh that old entity that does I think so but they can they can donate
directly to the Commission in any case which which um I generally try to remember to tell them don't know if I did in this case or not okay but still PL okay so you got you said two but it's
it's the same group for two different okay okay the spring and the fall okay great um and that's all I have we don't have any meeting minutes right m Vivian no okay and our next meeting is March 25th two weeks from tonight and we will
start early at 6:30 with the Klein felter Watershed study results yes and and I just remembered uh as well um because Peter reminded me about the um the the DCR State Forester
I think he might be there to talk about the trees he wants to clear up on Robin Robin Hill Road that's DCR ECR yes that's that's that's their it's their firewatch yeah that's right yes so I haven't gotten a confirmation from him
on that yet but uh that's a possibility okay is that this but that's a DCR Communications or firewatch person right not the firewatch right yes he's not the DCR Service Forest some horse trading some horse trading give us a forest management plan and we'll let him cut a
few trees whe and deal they cut trees at Thanksgiving Forest one right they made an open spot it's a yeah ay thing any idea how far back that was uh 15 16 years ago maybe yeah yeah at least and do we know if it
worked because the idea is you know more biodiversity but I think it might have I think it improve things to be honest how do we know though right but that's just I think it did improve things because we had you know was the same age the same species everything was like mono well that's it right that's that's the
problem with a lot of our land like the the you know trees were either planted or they sprung up and they're all the same age and that's bad and that's crooked Springs like that crooked spr same those Pines they all coming down yeah I'll take a motion to the journ
move to a journ CH second Mark all in favor I I thank you chord Tel media thank you e e