Good evening. Seeing this is 6:30, I'd like to call this September 25th, 2025 meeting of the finance committee to order. Tonight, we'll be following the published and posted agenda. We're being uh recorded for future viewing by Charles Hotel Media and live broadcast this evening. Uh the first item on our
agenda is a approval of minutes from September 18th, 2025. Has anyone had a chance to review them? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. Do I have a motion? >> I have a motion to approve the minutes of the September 18th, 2025 meeting. >> I'll second.
>> All right. Any discussion? Hearing none. It'll it'll be a roll call vote. >> Yes. >> Yes. Anita, >> yes. >> Cindy, >> yes. >> Yes. >> Elaine, >> and Sam, >> yes. >> And I'm in favor. So, seven in favor.
All right. Our next item on the agenda is an appointment of liaison to the capital planning committee. As a reminder, the capital planning committee is chaired by our finance director, John Souza. It meets two two to three to four meetings uh in the fall uh typically in November and December. They review all
the all the capital requests and again there's a five 10-year plan of capital requests even further out than that. Uh they they are presented by the various proponents of those and then uh you be the person that is on that is a voting member of the capital plan committee and Dave you served in that capacity. Uh
would you like to do that again? Um, I'm more than willing to do it again if nobody else would like to, but if somebody else would like to have a go at it, I'm more than glad to step aside. >> Okay.
Um, I after viewing a couple of the meetings and and and uh having my questions uh answered, um I I think that I am interested I am
interested in in um in um >> serving in that role. >> Serving in that role on the capital planning committee. >> Okay. >> I think you should take it if nobody else wants it. >> Okay. >> Okay. I think change is important. I think more than having one person look
at something >> Sure. >> is always a good thing. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> All right. So, Cindy, you'll be the uh liaison to the committee connect you with John. Um that won't start until after a fall town meeting. So, it will be in November of this year. And uh
their meetings are typically at 7 o'clock. They are televised. Um and um we'll make sure you get >> more more than adequate. >> Excellent. >> Uh run on that. >> Preparation is everything. Excellent. Thank you. >> All right. Thank you. >> Sure. >> All right. Uh next on our agenda this
evening is a review and discussion of warrant article 34, the preservation of open fields of Kula's farm. Uh with us this evening, Mr. Ray. Uh you have you sent to us a presentation that you also gave uh I believe this past Monday at the select board. Is that >> Yes. >> Correct.
>> Welcome. Uh thank you. John Ray 223 Pine Neil Road. Um negotiations are going along well outside of minutes and and I sent out a proposal midday today. I'm a believer to
the principles. I'm a believer everybody should have a minimum at least of 24 hours to digest decide what they want to do. Uh and so I'm requesting a deferral for
any discussion because if we if we reach an agreement then we don't have to go anywhere. We don't need anything. If we don't we'd have to amend the uh petition and and that would change the vote
anyhow. So with respect that's what I'm recommending if somebody want and I'm here primarily to to answer questions. So, you're asking us not not to take a vote on this this evening, >> right? Because I don't think if we can come to an agreement, we don't need a
vote, >> if we don't, we need to amend it and we'd have to read it rediscuss it. >> I have a question. So, this means it would be part of >> Hold on. So, one one question at a time, Elaine. >> So, this means if he's he's sort of like not withdrawing it, but it's being
worked over here that it would not be part of this uh the upcoming town meeting. >> Well, no, not necessarily. Uh and and please interject if if I'm misinterpreting. My understanding is he's asking us not to to make a vote one way or the other on this much like we have in the past on certain articles.
>> So this might go to town meeting without >> This could go to town meeting without us having voted on it. Exactly. Or if we were to vote that evening if there was an article before us. >> Um the language of a of a petition uh typically isn't adjusted if a proper notice hasn't been given. Uh there can
be friendly amendments or there can be amendments on the floor or amendments filed prior to town meeting um that are suggested and it's up to town council to determine whether or not that amendments appropriate based upon whether or not proper notice has been given to the community for that particular warrant article. >> Right.
>> Yeah. And so um I if you're asking us not to vote on this, I think we just take no action on on on that this evening. And if there's a need for us to vote in the future, we certainly could discuss uh having a small meeting ahead of town meeting. >> But I object and I will always object,
>> okay, >> to having a a vote at the night of town meeting. We did it once before and the consequences were dramatic. >> We have we we should not be voting on things before both sides have come in.
We it's the information has been disseminated throughout the town and we get the input to be sure that every that we understand everything. >> I appreciate what you're saying and I appreciate what you're referencing and I think we all know exactly what we're
talking about. Uh that's not the only time we've done that. Um, and I know I know you your position also on that. And I don't disagree uh with with uh having the proper time to review and and discuss. And so if we I'm not saying we
will have another meeting on this, but all I'm saying is the request is from the proponent for us to take no action on it this evening. And so we if I mean if it comes up, we can decide to take no action. We can decide to vote. It's not my decision. and it's
the board's decision. Um, but there has been a request from the proponent uh not to take action this evening. >> So, just to so go ahead. >> No, go ahead. >> I was going to say to play it out. So, imagine that someone um doesn't matter who it is would come to us in the future and say, "I don't actually want to hear
from you. So, please don't take any vote or action on on my amendment." Right? This is sort of I guess I'm trying to apply this this situation to others in the future. And so, imagine that like, oh, well, hey, you didn't vote on this one cuz someone asked you. Well, why are you voting on this one? I'm asking you
to not to as well. >> Valid point. Um, what I would say to that is that we would have to address why we didn't take any action. >> Okay. >> Um, and that would be the way we would address it is we there was a specific request because there was a discussion
that they may not it may be pulled essentially. Um is it hold on did he say is it going to be pulled or >> what he said is he and again correct me if I'm if I'm mistaken is that uh today there's been discussion and further proposal uh between the conservation
commission uh chair and yourself and other interested parties I assume um I think I forwarded the email uh to to the committee that I received um and um essentially he's asked he says it hasn't been 24 hours since that email has been
sent. Uh there's been ongoing discussions. Uh they had the uh Tuesday night the Com uh discussed this further um at their meeting. Um, and uh, from what you're telling us, you
believe that you're close to a a a agreeable situation that would allow you to pull this article if if what you're looking for and what the concom's looking for align.
>> Yes. And and I haven't heard from the the rest of the uh, principles. >> Okay. and and that to just to be I've always said 20 minimum of 24 hours to make a decision and do not do it on the fly >> so that there is just what this gentleman was talking about there needs
to be sufficient information basically we've adjusted downward what what uh the friends of Kulis was recommending in alignment with I think in alignment uh with u
conservation >> so it sounds like we want clarity. Absolutely. And and and we for instance in the email we had we we uh added uh uh conservations map so that people could
see that be familiar with the property. Okay. >> So that's the kind of changes and we're down to an acre and a half >> that we're discussing. >> So we're we're simplifying the proposal. Mhm.
>> And I hope the intent is to make a clear, concise. >> So simplifying it, doesn't that deacto change change it or change the language to some degree? And then I mean, this whole thing seems a little bit rushed. I
mean, if you're making good progress, it sounds like good progress, good faith on on both sides. Um and and given the fact that this feels a little rushed and maybe you pull it, maybe you don't, is it better to wait until springtime meeting
>> so that everybody can kind of get their you wrap their hands around it, wrap their minds around what's what's happening? I It sounds like you're making good progress. >> I I I don't think we need to do that. And the problem with the uh we could do anything,
>> but um I think we're close enough that we can make a decision and take advantage of the winter work window. >> Okay. And and that's a prep for the spring. >> If we wait till spring, we lose a lot of
that good work. So there's there's I need I need to listen to the other principles and and and see if we can make some accommodations, work together. Sometimes it it works out in an open session to do
it and you need to do it. Sometimes it it works out better if you're across the table. So I my question is what's the concern in in that you have in not pulling it in
waiting the spring town meeting if so I guess the question was if if progress is being made you're still trying to flesh out what's happening here and have the discussions and discussions are happening now uh what's your concern in just saying well if we need this we'll wait till springtown meeting what what
what is your the concern do you lo losing the winter work time. >> Okay. >> Is anybody preventing you from doing any work? >> Um if there's no sense of doing the work if
we don't aren't allowed to do what we want to do and it's defining the split between conservation and friends of coolers. We're I um what we're trying to do is
make an acre and a half open to you know uh familyfriendly usage area >> and then we can concentrate on that acre and a half not the whole three acres. >> Is there anything that would happen I guess between now and spring that would
prevent that from happening ultimately? And I'm not saying not happening right away but ultimately happening. Is there something that would prevent if you were to pull this article and and wait and re and have to bring it in Springtown meeting in in in April?
Um, is there some action, some thing that would happen between now and then that would prevent that space from being uh an acre and a half of familyfriendly space is what is what you're looking for. I guess >> we're we're talking about a division of
work. Okay. three acres down to an acre and a half. >> Acre, acre and a half. We're talking >> 4 and a4% of the property. >> But but if I may interject, that's not my question. Why would I work on on
uh work on property that u would be under the um uh ownership theoretically or maintenance ownership of conservation and and risk doing something that's in in opposition to what they want to be
done. So, so but my question is would something happen between now and then then being April springtime meeting that would prevent you if even if you couldn't work this this winter if
nothing could be hap nothing could happen there's nothing that I'm hearing that would prevent there from being an acre and a half of land still developed as familyfriendly as you're discussing the familyfriendly case the the open
space like Redwing Farm you mentioned. Is there something between now and then that would make it impossible for that to happen if you were to pull the article now and have to present it in the spring? >> Um actually I what I'm hearing is he doesn't want to do the work for nothing if it
>> I'm hearing I'm hearing that Elaine but that's not that's not my question. >> That but that's what you're preventing is that nobody would like this is all volunteer correct? >> Yes. It's all volunteers. So they don't want to be out there in the you know in the weather of uh fall and do this predicate work which make the spring
work much easier. >> So what I'm >> Go ahead. >> Yeah I was going to say what I'm hearing is you know having worked in Redwing like there's actually a lot of work that you need to do and fall is usually the best season to do that and so by the time you get to the end of April you're already into May it's growing season and
if you there's like lots of rocks to remove there's other stuff like things are already growing and tons of maintenance. So it sounds like to make this if this all goes through, you need the winter time to do the prep work so that the community can enjoy it next year. >> But how does this article here, right,
this article here force that work to happen this fall? >> It enables it. >> The No, because it says the town should not allow the site to revert to unmanaged and further the town is requested to refrain from finalizing a permanent conservation restriction. There's no mechanism. There's nothing. There's no mechanism in this in this
that says okay if we >> if we pass this we can start working. They still have to negotiate it. >> They still have to negotiate. So this article whether it passes or not doesn't give them that mechanism. >> You're right. Yeah. I think it's sort of like the the storyline. This is what we
had talked to you about before is like how can you change the article such that it it accomplishes the thing that you're looking for but as written too. >> As written. So I think personally I think this is what it is. We vote on this. If it changes for town meeting, then when they ask us how we voted, we say, "Well, it changed, so we didn't have a chance to vote on it."
>> That That's your prerogative. I'm just saying that we went into this when we wrote it and we were talking about all three fields, which was about 3 acres of land. And Carl and I have whittleled that down to about an acre and a half. I
think that I think we need we we owe it to the principles, the rest of the principles to um make a decision and weigh in and and they've quite honestly had by my book five hours and that's not fair.
>> Okay. >> Who are the other principles that you're referencing? >> Paul. Okay. I don't know what his workload is. I'm not trying to impinge on his workload. I don't think Paul would be >> okay. I don't think Paul would be
considered a principal though because the town manager is under the direction of the of the select board. So I don't think Paul has a dog in the fight >> and and the select board. >> Yeah. And the select board. Okay. So So the select board, uh the conservation commission, and the
friends of coolest farm. Is that is those are the three? >> Well, it's it's select board, uh conservation, and Paul. We've already rung in on on what the downsizing. >> So, are are you asking for us to delay
the vote by weeks until this happens and then you know if there's a negotiation and it comes to fruition? >> I I would hopefully not weeks because >> town meeting's right around the corner. >> Town meetings right around the corner. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> So, okay. I'm just going to sum it up.
He's asking us to take it out and our choices are to vote at on it as is or to ignore it and then maybe go to town meeting with where hey they were negotiating to the last minute and nothing happened so we didn't take a vote to >> to clarify I'm not asking you to take it
out because I'm just saying we would be we're not taking the petition out we're just we are we're developing an amendment to it to downsize it >> which means we cannot vote on it now because we don't know what that amendment will be >> we No, we would all the only thing we
would be able to vote on is the actual >> artic that's the only thing we can So he's our options are A we take no action when it comes up B uh we vote on it up down abstain
>> or C we delay our vote till till a future date before town meeting. Those are three options. We don't have to make that decision right this second. It'll come up when during our during our voting at at 34. You had a request for I think delay and then no action. >> Um
>> and maybe no action >> and maybe no action or maybe a vote. And I think that's the request that the presenter is giving us. We'll have to we'll have to discuss that at the time that the article comes up. >> I think that's where we are. >> And and Mr. Ray,
>> yes. >> You do understand that the vote of the finance committee is a recommendation either to approve or not approve the article. It doesn't affect the standing of the article whether or not it's presented to town meeting nor does it change anything. It's only a recommendation.
>> Yes. Yes, I do understand that. >> Okay. Are there any other questions? >> All right. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. a public comment. Yep. >> Paul and town manager with respect to
article 34 of the co farm article. I'm not involved in any discussions. Uh and I'm not aware that the select board is involved in any discussions. Um the select board met Monday evening, cast their vote on the article. I I am aware and I think as you noted that there are
discussions between the petitioner and the conservation commission and I think that's where it lies and um >> you know I I I you know it's a non-binding article and as we not as was noted earlier whatever the vote of town
meeting or recommendations whatever you know the the select board and commission are within their authority to do what they want to do but I I'm hopeful and that was Why it was suggested even at the select board table to table this until springtown meeting, not with the
expectation it would get resolved on April 1st, but that it would get resolved in near time and then all this other stuff um could could um you know occur um if there is some harmony um during the next few months. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> Thank you. >> Seeing as we're public comment, any further public comment? There is no one in the audience and there's no one on in the Zoom. So we will proceed the next item on the agenda which is a review and discuss uh a discussion of fall time meeting warrant articles and our vote on
recommendations are the same. So let me bring up the presentation. >> It's probably the easiest way to filter through >> except for those zoning articles. >> Except for those zoning articles screen mode.
Okay. Article one, there is no action. It's a report. >> Article two. >> Article two. >> Two. I make a motion to recommend article two submitted by the cemetery commission. I
move that the town transfer $65,000 from the sale of graves and lots account to cemetery improvement and development fund. >> I second. Discussion. Annual. No discussion.
>> All right. All those in favor? >> Oh, roll call. Yeah. >> I >> I >> I >> I >> Cindy. >> I >> Steve. >> Elaine. >> Totally. >> I'll take an I. Sam
>> abstain. >> And I. So that's uh six in favor, one abstension. Article three. I make a motion to recommend article three, sewer construction stabilization fund, submitted by the town manager. I move
that the town transfer 185,000, excuse me, $195,833 from free cash to the sewer construction stabilization fund. >> I second >> discussion hearing. None. David. >> Hi. >> Hi. >> Anita,
>> I >> Sam >> Hi. I seven in favor. No nays or abstensions. Article four. >> I mo make a motion to recommend article four collective bargaining agreement submitted by the town manager as
written. >> Second. >> Discussion. Uh glad to hear we're we're one shy of being uh completely up to date on all of our agreements. >> Any further discussion? Hi.
>> Give me you. >> All right. I >> Anita. >> Hi, >> Cindy. Steve. >> Hi, >> Elaine. >> Hi, >> Sam. >> I >> I'm an I as well. Seven in favor. No needs or abstensions. Article five, no arc, no action.
>> Article six. >> I make the motion to recommend article six, roadway and sidewalk construction, submitted by the town manager. I move that the town transfer $1 million from free cash to fund roadway and sidewalk construction including all incidental and related expenses.
>> I second >> discussion >> hearing none. David >> I >> Anita >> I >> Cindy >> I >> Stephen >> I >> I >> Elaine thank >> I >> I seven in favor no needs or extensions
article 7 >> I make a motion to recommend article 7 design for roadway constru re reconstruction from technology drive to Richardson road and vinyl square submitted by the town manager I move that the town transfer $300,000 from
free cash to fund the preliminary designs for the reconstruction of Route 3A from Technology Drive to Richardson Road and for the Vinyl Square intersection safety improvement. >> Second >> discussion. >> I'm just not quite sure where Technology
Drive is. >> Well, on a second. >> Right. Where Popeye's used to be. >> Nope. Nope. Technology Drive. >> Oh, on the other side. >> On the other side. >> It's other side of Route 4. And so technology drive, if you're driving to Vinyl Square from the Rotary, is the
first right. And on Technology Drive, >> there is a uh dementia care placed there. >> The atrium is right there on the corner. >> Okay, now I know where it is. >> Yep. >> And then of course, Vinyl Square is further up.
>> Um happy to see we're moving forward with this. Uh I there have been a couple of this is a masked up program. Um I I'm not sure how I feel about losing a lane, but other than that, it's uh it's going to be a good improvement, especially with Richard Road getting a light.
>> Yeah. >> Any further discussion? >> David, >> I. >> Anita, >> I >> Cindy, >> I >> Stephen, >> I >> Elaine, >> I want to say like a pirate. A >> Sam >> I >> I seven in favor, no nays or
abstensions. Article eight. >> I make a motion to recommend article 8, police station emergency power supply submitted by the town manager. I move that the town transfer $100,000 from free cash for the replacement of the police station emergency power supply
system. >> Second >> discussion. >> This is the one that we've already gone down a couple of times this year. Yes. This is the one where um it's gone down. It's an aged system. It needs to be replaced. Uh and if it goes out,
there's no power to the police station. So, it's a it's a real necessity. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Um any further discussion hearing? None. David >> I. >> Anita. >> Hi. >> I >> Cindy Steven. >> Hi. >> Ela. >> Hi. >> Sam.
>> I. I'm uh seven in favor. No need or abstension. Article nine. I make a motion to recommend article 9, senior center acoustical improvements. I move that the town transfer $45,000 from free cash for acoustical improvements to the senior center.
>> I second >> discussion. >> I can't wait for town meeting with this after that because that would be cool. >> I don't think it's going to be green. >> No, no, no, no, no, no. I meant like >> it'd be nice to not have echoing and Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I agree with you on that one.
Hi >> David. >> Hi. >> Hi. >> Cindy. >> Hi, >> Stephen. I >> Sam >> I >> and I'm an I. Seven in favor. No abstensions. Article 10. >> I make a motion to recommend article 10 Chsford Public Schools switch gear
submitted by the town manager. I move that the town transfer $400,000 from free cash for the rehabilitation of the Chumsford Public Schools switch gear. A second >> discussion hearing none. David
>> I >> Anita >> I >> I Steven Elaine >> Sam >> I >> and I'm an I in favor nos or abstensions article 11 >> I make a motion to recommend article 11 Chelmsford public schools out of district special education tuitions
submitted by the town manager. I move that the town transfer transfer $48,963 from free cash to be provided to the Chumsford public schools for payment of outofd district special education tuitions. >> I second
>> discussion that was pretty self-explanatory. >> This is the one that's in and out, right? It's not really I just want to make sure >> it's because of the date that it came in. It came in in May of the previous year. They thought that because of when it was being applied it would be applied to last year. They do the O said, "Nope,
we're applying it to that your your previous fiscal year and you can't carry it forward." And this is it goes into free cash and then goes back into the schools. If it didn't go back in the schools, then there'd be a deficit of 408 963 that we'd have to deal with. >> Yep. >> We should probably write that down in our reasoning for the
>> Yeah, >> it's impressive how you remember all those details. >> I know you remember the In and Out. This is In and Out something like that. remember just like hearing about it. It's like yes, you got to do it. >> Any further discussion? >> Hearing none. David
>> Hi, >> Anita. >> Hi. >> Hi. >> Cindy Steven. >> Hi. >> Ela. >> Hi. >> Sam. >> I. >> I'm an I. Seven in favor. No names or abstensions. Article 12. >> I make a motion to recommend article 12 McCarthy Middle School roof replacement
phase 2. I move that the town transfer uh $2,500,000 from free cash for the replacement of portions of the McCaffy Middle School roof, including any incidental and related expenses. >> I second >> discussion. >> No, we need it done.
>> No, we can't have leaky leaky roofs at the at the at the McCarthy. Now, >> and how does this relate to the so phase two of how many? I forget. Do anyone remember? >> Uh I mean obviously has >> total phases. I don't know if we know exactly how many total phases we're
going to have. Uh we're currently in phase one and that's currently being done. So the roof area partial fun >> this was funding for phase two. >> This is funding for phase two. Yeah. >> Uh we have a partial phase one for roof
area one. So if you're looking at the at the at the picture on the >> top right >> on the top right there. Um and then overall phase uh phase two covers you know I think I have a separate do I have a separate
presentation on this one? No >> this was it. >> Okay. >> I think it was discussed it be this would be multiple phases. Yeah. >> No no no it does not. Right. Got to be done. Yep. >> Okay.
>> Okay. Any further discussion? Hearing none. David >> I >> Cindy >> I >> Stephen >> I >> Sam >> I >> and I'm an I. Uh that is seven in favor. No need or extensions. Article 13. >> I make a motion to recommend article 13
Westford Street drainage. I move that the town transfer $500,000 from the sewer enterprise fund retained earnings for the design and construction of drainage improvements along Westford Street including any in incidental and related expenses
>> second >> discussion makes sense >> to get done now while the bridge is being done >> right >> completely agree >> economy is a scale >> and it felt like so the purchase price I We're doing mental math, but it seemed
like there was a relatively quick payback, right? So, if they remove 25,000 gallons per day, resell that back, you actually get to recoup some of that um the 500,000 >> which improve it's going to improve the capacity that we have. Yeah. >> Right.
>> Which at this point is being sold, right? Incrementally. >> Well, if a business comes in and they need to buy capacity, if they don't have the the the enough capacity for what they need to do, then they then Yes. >> Okay. >> is I guess the simple answer for that. It's a little bit more complex than that, but yeah.
>> Any other questions? Discussion. >> David, >> I >> Cindy >> I. >> Stephen. >> Hi. >> Ela. >> Hi. >> Sam. >> Hi. >> And I'm an I. That's seven in favor. No need or abstensions. Article 14. >> I make a motion to approve article 14
vinyl square parking lot lease submitted by the town manager as written. >> I second. discussion >> for a dollar. >> Is there any risk that it's a 30-year lease? Like, is there any flexibility that the town wants shorter term or
maybe a longer term just to lock it in? >> Any consideration? >> I think the previous lease was 30 years. I think that that the owners said, "Okay, I think there probably was a discussion. >> Went through this field on the board in 30 years, kids." >> Right. >> You bring it up then, right?
>> Knock yourself out. 30 years. I Yeah, I hope I'm on the ceiling for 30 years. >> That would be a record. >> Um, any further discussion? >> It's a dollar. >> Thank you. >> It's a It's a dollar.
>> It is a dollar. It's the red portion of that of that. It's if you're going through Vinyl Square, it's a portion behind the town portion where the where in the yellow spot at the front is where the proposed spot for the clock that was purchased is going in. >> This will all be kind of reconfigured
through the previous design article we discussed >> where I'm not going to get into it. It's not >> It's only a dollar. We shouldn't spend that much time on this. >> I can keep going. >> I know you can. >> Yeah. >> Dave, move it along. Hi. >> Hi. >> Hi. >> Anita Sydney.
>> Hi. >> Hi. >> Elaine >> Sam >> I mean I seven in favor. No naysay or abstensions. Article oh >> this is the consent. >> This is when we get to the consent agenda. So I will take a motion to consolidate articles 15. >> Make a motion to consolidate all these
zoning articles in one big honken discussion. Thank you. >> Took it right away for you. Okay. >> All right. Any any discussion on consolidating the discussion? Hearing none. >> Dave >> I. >> Anita.
>> Hi. >> Cindy. Stephen. Elaine. >> Sam. >> Hi. >> And I'm an I. All right. Now to the packaged 15 through 26. So this is where you'll have to pull. and and and pro properly Cindy the the
the the motion would be um just a CBLT zoning district adoption. >> Okay, just I can read each one of these then >> or just >> no CB. >> Okay, so I'm just going to 15 to 2. Oh, that's it. I make a motion to recommend
articles 15 to 26 CBLT zoning district >> as presented. >> As presented. >> I second >> discussion. I think that some people are going to go a little nutsoid about the whole family definition. >> That's not that's not the >> Thank God. All right. Yeah. Then then
I'm I'm cool. >> You're cool. >> I'm cool. >> I I I just want to state, you know, being on the planning board, we spent a significant amount of time. Um, you know, we've got, you know, we have a lot of currently our IE zoning that abuts,
um, residential has caused a lot of angsts with a lot of residents when new projects come in and this was our attempt to lessen the impacts to residential and provide a nice transition zone. Um, I think we've
done a good job. We've vetted it out. Um, it's a first step, but I think an important step and there's probably going to be some more revisions and other zoning down the pike. >> Okay. >> What do you mean in terms of other zoning?
>> Like I think there's areas we need to look in town and like there's a whole like part of the planning and the planning board that we really need to look at and >> and kind of just make sure it all lines up. >> If you look at the zoning map of Chelford, it is all over the place and
it's it it shows it shows the spurts of growth that happened over the decades and it didn't really match what a a full planned out community might look like >> and I think this there's finally a a planning board in place that's kind of
taking a look at that and saying well maybe can we kind of clean them up some way uh to make it make sense where where both where things currently are and where we want things to be in the future and so I think that's what the goal is
um and this is one of those steps toward that. >> Yeah, I think um it all makes sense. So, just indulge me here for a second. So, there's this game called Sim City 2000. And so, you got to be a mayor, right? And you started off with this beautiful place, right? It was blank. There was
rolling hills and trees and ponds and everything. And so, you developed the town as you wanted to develop it. And so, there were only three zones. And so for simplicity, for our purposes, there are three zones, right? So there is residential and there is heavy, medium, and light. There's commercial, heavy,
medium, light, and industrial. And if you think about philosophy, like residential is easy. That's where you live, right? >> Commercial is where you buy stuff and where um services are performed or intangible things are created. And manufacturing or industrial zone is
where you make physical things, right? And so I think this is an amazing idea and I I certainly, you know, applaud the planning board for doing it and and going in that direction. So there's a couple things I want to call attention to. One is just the name from a part of my my job is creating
clarity in language to align people around people, process, and technology. And so right here, what we're doing here is is fixable in the future. But CB light is not the right name for this. This is a zone that is an industrial zone because it allows the manufacturing
of goods. So in that classic definition, it is manufacturing. It is a light version of manufacturing. It is not a light version of the commercial as it's designed, right? In a classic sense. So it creates a little bit of uh in my opinion confusion around what would be
allowed in that zone for future generations. Talk about 10, 20, 50 years from now. That's fixable, right? you can change the name. Um the second thing is that this zone allows I think a a really restricted amount of manufacturing in
the appropriate way that would be more like a light to manufacturing, right? And so that makes a lot of sense with the exception of if you look at how that could be applied to um the town in real life. So the the crux of the problem
here in my mind is that um for example, Lockheed was built in 1964. Under the zoning right here, you could build the same building with the same capabilities and the same outcomes in the same place here in 2025.
And so that's the crux of it is that it doesn't solve the original problem as it's written because it allows that to happen again and again and again. And so there's two separate things. One is is the zone itself appropriate as it's
constructed and maybe it is right and so maybe that's the thing is like maybe it's better parts of town that's appropriate and then the second part of what we'll vote on is sort of how do you apply that zone to the different parts of town right so that's a separate issue >> so I'm going to I just I I understand
whether or not Lockheed can be built in this area so one of the things that we ran into is in on Riverneck Road when They wanted to put in a distribution center. We had Mercury. We have two office buildings. Um, and what the
residents said over and over is, "We're fine with the office buildings. We don't want a distribution because we don't want the trucks, the noise, the round the clock." When I went to the in particular with Loheed Martin, when I went to the neighborhood meeting that
they invited, what I heard and I was quite surprised by it was how much everybody liked them as neighbors. They liked Lockheed. Their concern was what would go in here? What was what would Max because Maxwell's lot is open. They were concerned about what would go into Maxwell's and that concerned them. They
weren't upset about Lockheed because again it's 9 to5. It's light traffic. So that's, you know, when you look at this, you're right. A locked can go in there. A Mercury could go in there. Those aren't the ones that have a lot of, you
know, they're there now, and we don't foresee them being major issues. And that's why we tightened up what ultralight manufacturing is to limit that so we don't have that creep of a heavy manufacturer going in there because we don't want that in the
neighborhood. We want the office complex, but we do want to give some flexibility if they have to do small tooling or you know or you know light types of manufacturing that's not really a nuisance to the neighborhood.
>> You mean like prototypes? >> Exactly. Thank you. That was the word I was looking for. >> Assembly. >> Thank you. Exactly. So that was what and that's why we have this and that's why we allowed for the ultralight. Again, anything that's large still needs to go to the planning board. There's still a
process for it. It still needs, you know, butters need to get, you know, special permit needs to be applied for. There's still a process for it where neighbors and people can come out and voice their concerns, which we've done successfully. You know, Riverneck Road
did it successfully. Um, you know, Maxwells when they wanted to put in the um contractor yard came out and spoke. What we're trying to do is just kind of make sure that there's a message to developers who come to town that they understand what we're looking
for, where we're looking for it, and what we don't want. And you know, where we have residential putting a contractor's yard or distribution center shouldn't should not apply. And that's what we're that was what the intent was from this. and to maybe allow some folks
a little bit less anxiety who live in these areas and seeing that you know again the commercial business is changing and has changed significantly. Al >> also light industrial provides jobs where distribution centers really
provide very few jobs. >> Great. If you take your take a look through the through the the use tables, it's pretty clear what will not be allowed, what will be allowed by right, and then what requires plenty of board approval. And that's when I'm looking at zoning,
that's the first place I I look when there's a question of what's going to be allowed there. I look at zoning zoning use tables and then I go into what's what the definitions are and what's allowed there. So, um, given what requires approval and what's been disallowed, I'm I'm comfortable
with with with this definition and it has it is different than the commercial business. It is different than the industrial. It's kind of a an a go-between between the two. Um, I think it's I think it's a good a good a good effort and I um I got to support it.
Are your comments directed basically at Kate's corner or is it all of the >> So I think it it's a com you have to figure out the zone itself and then where is it applied right like I said I think the zone itself is fine as it is
right if you apply it in the the appropriate areas knowing that what exists today yeah >> thank Any further discussion? >> It go Kate's corner is Chumsit's >> Bodega.
>> Well, Kate's corner was is next article, so we'll deal with that when we get to it. Yeah. >> All right. So, for 15 through 26, any further discussion hearing? None. David >> I. >> Anita. >> I. >> Cindy, >> I.
>> Stephen, >> I >> I >> Sam >> I. Seven in favor. No, abstensions. Let me get to the article 27. >> I make a motion to recommend article 27,
zoning bylaw amendment reszone certain particles of the official zoning map submitted by the planning board as written. >> Second >> discussion. >> What is Kate Corner's currently? >> What is Kate Corner currently zoned? So,
this is the current zoning for Kate's Corner. And you'll you'll see um that the the parcel that is Loheed Martin is industrial. >> Yeah. >> Um there's commercial business. Hold on. I want to make sure I'm looking at the at the map correctly here.
>> So, you got half they got their parking lot that's in CA. >> Yep. Then you have to the left >> the main facility is >> IA to the left is CB which also encompasses people's residential homes. >> Okay. >> Is CB.
>> The green space is is what used to be Maxwell Maxwell which is now currently unoccupied. >> Yep. Um, and then you've got CB down further down um, Route 27 there that a lot of those parcels are all public like they're owned by the town, but they're
zone CB, which really should be zone P. So, if you go to the next slide, >> it's a swamp. >> Yeah, this is what we're proposing to change. So, what the town owns is going to be zone P because that's what it's public. >> Yeah. Um
the homes are going to be zoned RB because that's what they are. Um what's you know what was CA stays CA on route 27 and then Lockheed and Maxwell's all going to be the CB light.
>> Okay. So really CB like it's applied to three parcels and then the zoning changes for the the homes along Parkerville and the public spaces that are now currently either RB
or CB are going to be all public. >> Okay. >> Yeah. I mean I think a lot of I mean if you look at the map you know again I think a lot of that makes sense. I think, you know, when I, you know, talked to folks um who didn't want to
speak up necessarily or were confused on something, they said, "Well, there was a room for comment, but I didn't know like that was it." Right? So, talking to people outside of this room um did not have the same impression um as what I've been hearing, right, that you heard. And
so a lot of it was just a lot of concern about the noise pollution, the light pollution um others um of the area. And so stepping back, what I like to do is is do like a bookend approach. Does this logically make sense? So I think a lot of it does. I think the thing that I'm
hearing from the neighbors is that it's all all around the CB light and what that allows. And so take this and then apply to other places. So would you zone CB light next to Freeman Lake? next to what? >> Freeman Lake, like senior center, you
know, something over there. >> So, would you want a facility like Lockheed? Because as I understand it, you could allow if you zone this CV light and a facility like Lockheed could come in right next to Freeman Lake. I think that's an inappropriate place for that. Okay. How about next to a
>> I don't I don't think it's being >> proposed for proposed for that. >> But my this is a thought experiment to see if this makes sense logically. No, I mean, >> but that that's not how zoning works. >> Sure, it should be. >> No, >> not really. >> No. And No, it's not. And where we did
think about where to put it was in the other slide. One of them was we looked at the Princeton U mills because actually they called us up, the owner of it called us up and said, "Hey, would you we heard that you're doing CB light. We really like to change
um our mills be something we would like here." So it would allow certain things in our zoning and I think they're IA >> currently IIAIA. Yeah. >> Right. And they and we looked at it. We tested this to see would we apply it to to already something that's developed.
Right. >> Um and does it make sense? Does it hit everything we want it to hit? It does. The other place we were thinking about was Riverneck Road. That was an area because it's already developed. We're not looking at applying this to areas that are not developed
like you know and just making sure that if this gets applied there would this make sense? Maybe, maybe not. Um so for so for um for the middle sex mills I I think it does make sense. I know I know it's not part of this particular article, but if we're playing
that thought game, CB Light's going to make sense for that section because across the street you have um you have the establishment and you have the uh the businesses and the mills. Um but you couldn't have a restaurant on the other side of the street. Currently, there's a bunch of businesses. There's a there's a
school um and there's a uh dance academy and things like that, but you couldn't have all the same businesses that you have across the street because the zoning the way it is. CV light would not prevent anything that's currently happening there, but would allow those additional things that are allowed across the street. So, that makes sense.
And it's about applying it to make sure it's not preventing something that's currently being allowed there, but allowing for something that would make sense, >> right? >> Um, so I get >> the place that we were thinking about or I was thinking about was
Turnpike Street, the back of um we got 129. It's all IIA. >> Yeah. >> Right. Right. like you've got that like so instead of it being IA cuz then it crosses the street where like Warav is right you've got residential neighborhoods >> right so take the back and I mean we haven't even looked at it so I don't
even know what the parcels look like >> but take that street and do CB light so then you don't run the risk of a man of someone buying a property and putting a distribution center >> like across the street from a >> development like that would be something
you know could we could possibly apply it But we're not looking at like quiet neighborhoods. And >> so let's talk about what happened if we don't change it. Uh I guess let's play let's play the devil's advocate all the way through here. Um so we have IIA
where Lockhe Martin currently is. um if they decide in the next month or two or even the next year that they need bigger space and they can't just can't exist here and we keep this as IIA under IIA heavy manufacturing would be allowed at this location by right and so that would
actually be a worse position than if we were to switch it to CB light. So I think in that regard I the change not only makes sense but also protects the location. Um, I get that CB change from Maxwells to CB Lite doesn't allow
that small ultralight manufacturing and maybe that's a a change that's slightly different than what is currently there. Um, but I don't think it's enough to not include that in that discussion. Is your concern the whole totality of the three parcels, Stephen, or is it just one of
the parcels or I'm just trying to understand the the concern that you have. So going back to what um >> you and you live down here here, correct? I do. Yeah. >> Yep. >> But even from again going back to the Sim City like view like I would never
put an industrial zone next to a pond that everyone loves and next to a school that is inappropriate zoning, right? >> But it's there. >> But currently >> fine, right? And so the point of the zoning board is what you were just saying is that thankfully we have a zoning board that's looking holistically
at the town and making a community that is zoned in how we want the community to be. >> Is this how we want the community to be? Forget about today, tomorrow. Look at right there. Let the children guard what the sireers have won. Is that what we want our children to be like having in
their experience having manufacturing next to a beach with a pond in a school? And the answer is no. We don't want that. >> Okay? >> Right? Because we'd never do it anywhere else in town. So again, that's the the crux of it. Why would you ever put industrial next to those things? >> So to count your argument, I would say
yes, I don't want the heavy industrial there. So let's get rid get rid of it without removing what's currently allowed by the people that are there through grandfathering. So, um, if we change the CB light, we're not changing what they can currently do at that and
do currently do at that location. But if we were to make it further restrictive if we were to say, let's just apply CB to it, it takes away something that they're currently doing. And although that does not affect their grandfathered right, it does affect their their uh value of the property because it changes
what they could sell it for essentially. >> Correct. C can I make an um I find this still even though I've been around it through town meeting is there any way to have a little legend RB stands for this da da da stands for that because some of you all have been doing this for so long
it just rolls off your tongue where if you're like a brand new town town rep you're be like what the hell and it's a little that's why I think people get very scared by zoning because it doesn't um it doesn't >> No not there I was looking sorry >> yeah so it's like would like to you have
you have white space right there. You have room to put it. >> We can we can >> pass that along to Chris. I'll pass along to I think that is a good idea. >> I think the less confusion the better because it means a people are understanding and b we're there less time. >> Yeah. Yeah. No,
>> being completely honest here. Uh so I agree. Yeah, that would probably be helpful. Um so that people understand what the current zoning is, what that what the lettering means and they can not only hear it from from somebody but they can also see >> some people some people hear things, some people see
>> some people are visual. I I I completely agree with that. Yep. I I think that would be helpful >> and rather than stays remains >> just for a while it stays stays RB remains um continues to be I don't know
I just >> certainly suggest that to Chris I that I'm I'm I'm less that's more stylistic than anything else so if he wants to change it fine >> but I do think >> a legend >> a legend would be helpful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I mean I I understand a lot of
the perspectives. I think there's a false choice between saying it's either CB light or IIA, right? There's other choices and we're choosing not to do that. And I think that's a incredible mistake. Right. I love the concept of cleaning up the zone. I love the concept
of, you know, trying to downsize and prevent heavy industry from being next to a school and next to a pond. Um, you still, you know, it's a manufacturing zone. You're still letting it happen and you're not guarding, you know, the children aren't going to be able to guard what we've won here. And we're
going to do the same exact thing that was voted for. Like the effective result of this, a yes decision here is going to be the same effective result as it was in 1964. Now, I was hoping that we'd learn something in 60 years. >> I respectfully disagree, but I don't think we're going to come to an agreement. >> I don't think so either.
>> Yeah. That's why we vote. That's why we vote. And I also think that doing this in steps like this, right? Like again, when I first time we, you know, we came up to this and, you know, Loheed Martin's attorney showed up at our at the
planning board meeting and um like I was ready to zone this whole area RV because I love this area. I like it. I think it should be neighborhoody, all RV because I wanted this to be RB. However, um I changed my mind and I do
think that doing this in steps keeps us out of trouble. Um currently possibly >> I I while I like litigation personally, I don't think it's good for the town. >> I don't um and it allow like we begin to restrict it. So now we've restricted what can go in there. So we don't know
in the next 40, 50 years who buys it, how it changes, what they change and what they're doing in there, which would allow us an opportunity then maybe to restrict it even further, right? Because time will evolve. Um, but
not doing anything is not the right answer. speaking, you know, from the tiller the hunt side of things. I mean, we don't have a lot of businesses in this town paying taxes and
they are, I mean, whatever Lockheed wants or at least is happy with. >> I think we should, you know, I want to make sure whatever we do, we don't alienate them because they're a great company. And Paul, how much taxes do
they pay in this town? I'd have to look at their I can look at their assessed value. >> Well, you can give me another rough idea. There are they certainly contribute I would think a large amount. Plus, there must be a lot of people that live in town that work there.
>> Right. It's it's it's a it's a dense job creator with with high value jobs. >> Some some high value. I mean, we're this the tech I mean, the burden is on the taxpayers in this town at a very high
level. Any industrial support I will support. >> And it also works up 410 shift. So, they're actually closed three days a week. >> But I do appreciate your argument. I do. >> I really do.
>> I don't want you to think I don't. Okay. I just don't think this is doing any harm to where we are right now. And to your point, if down the road we need to do more, >> then we'll do more. >> We can do it. >> I don't think there's >> nothing preventing us from doing it.
>> Or am I wrong? >> No. If if a B so if a business were to move into where Lohee Martin currently is and they didn't do ultralight manufacturing like Loheed currently does, a zoning change >> that doesn't allow it would not affect that business. And so there would be a
it'd be a progressive inch back essentially, >> right? >> So I guess that would be the way to look at it >> theoretically. >> Plus there's not going to be very much heavy manufacturing in Chelsford, Massachusetts. >> That's Yeah, that's true. And they've
been good they've been good neighbors from what I understand. >> Oh, okay. >> Well, that's all. Okay. >> That's all. >> Chum change. some change, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And whatever they do from an
expansion process still has to go through the planning board, like if they do anything. So there's plenty of >> there's plenty of gates along the way to help control. >> Yeah. And there's a, you know, ability to negotiate stuff for >> the and I get the counterargument that, you know, the planning board may be
different in the future than it is now. I I I I I'm I'm broadcasting your your argument. >> I get it and I understand it. I understand the other side, right? I get it. >> Yeah. >> But you're welcome to run for the planning and join us.
>> I want to commend you for >> for taking the position you have today. >> No. >> Thank you. >> Okay. >> Any further discussion on this one? >> I think we've beat it to death >> pretty much. >> All right. Dave, >> I
>> Anita, >> I >> Cindy, >> I >> Stephen, >> I Sam, >> hi. And I'm an I. So six in favor, one against. Okay. Article 28. >> I make a motion to recommend article 28,
zoning bylaw amendment, massage service establishment. Submit. >> I'm sorry. >> That's right. Submitted by the planning board as written. >> I second. Um >> discussion. >> Just wanted to understand why the change. I I don't quite understand.
Um so go ahead either one I >> so basically uh what happened is um the a a parlor uh massage massage facility there's new therapeutic massage
>> uh was expanding or something like that and uh they were inspected they were inspected and it turns out that they weren't properly zoned in that location for doing massage and so they they looked at the definition and went Oh, we have the wrong people enforcing. It's
not a CH public board of health that's licensing this. It's the state that's licensing this. And um the definition is not adequ ad adequate or accurate. Yeah. And so um that's kind of why the bylaw is being changed. is being updated to
reflect the state's involvement in such a >> the proper the proper um u party that enforces the regulations and to make sure the definitions are are correct >> because they >> because the board of health doesn't >> no
>> regulate this. It's state that regulates it. And >> though I do want to make a bet of how long we spend on this article, >> it'll be it'll be a while. >> Yep. I got a feeling this is going to be like a hot What's the >> like a hot massage?
>> Oh, I don't know because Okay, because it's the word massage and God only knows. >> Okay. >> With the people. >> It's been a long time on family. So, the next town meeting massaging. I don't I don't think I've ever heard of a family massage. I don't want to figure
that one out. Um, >> basically, we're talking spas here. Spas. Spa. Just say nothing nefarious. That's right. We have we have none of those other ones here in town that we know. That's right. >> Um >> so >> yikes. Um
>> those are not allowed and illegal anyway. So yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that's a new use table change. So basically it currently says that you can't you need you need a board of appeals approval for CA and CB and CV light CC.
>> Yeah. Actually, I actually had to go to a ZVA because my my massage therapist did change locations and she asked her CL her customers to go in and speak in front of the ZVA so she could get and literally she just moved in town and we
had to go do that. It was ridiculous. And she does, you know, massages for people who have can like lymphatic massages and stuff like she had a lot of clients for that. It's therapeutic. >> Yes. Very. Thank you. >> Yes. >> I'm going to go there. I was the only one going there for just to relax, but you had a whole bunch of also therapeutic.
>> Therapy did have a lot of clothes. >> You have a job, right? And you're on several boards for therapeutic reason. >> You don't want me to wound up compelling. >> Amen. Um, >> okay. Uh, any further discussion?
Hearing none. Dave, >> I, >> Anita, >> I, >> Cindy, >> I, >> Steve, >> I. >> Ela, >> hi. >> Sam, >> I >> and I'm an I. That's seven in favor. No names or abstensions. Article 29. >> I make a motion to approve article 29,
zoning bylaw amendment definition of family submitted by the planning board as written. >> I second >> discussion. >> I'm glad Chris is presenting this. >> I thought I thought there was uh something that Steve said here that was really good is for the des for zoning
reasons the family is blah blah blah. Just to give it a we're not talking about what you think a family is. We're just talking what zoning thinks the family is just that so that we can get out that evening because that that I feel much like the
massage Paul is gonna just is a hot word and people are going to get all excited and it really doesn't mean what they think it means. >> Yeah, this was coupled with another article and so both articles feel actually the next one coming up. So both articles failed because it became such a hot button topic about whe whether or not family is being redefined and yeah
that was I think Chris was clear on that and but I think it needs to be not just clear but in your face knocking you down and rolling you over uh clear >> like a picture saying this is a single family house this is a multif family building right this is what multif family means we're voting on the
definition of this building not the family >> the building >> because if we were to change family to something else like a unit, it would cause so many bylaw changes that we'd be there for 3 days. >> Yeah. >> We need to be consistent with what the state is recommending.
>> Correct. >> And some of it's just some of it is just the state has this, you know, definition and we're going, "Oh, okay." It's not really like it's not it's not emotionally saying what is my family, >> right? And >> correct me if I'm wrong. He uh you guys
did go through the plan board and Chris and slightly tweaked what's being presented now from what was being presented in >> was it spring? >> Was it was it was spring? Okay. I can't remember which one it was. >> Um
so is not just we're following Brookline because I don't know that was one of the arguments was that was made. We're not following. Yeah, we did change it a little bit. Okay. So, yeah. So, here research other towns. >> We're not going all the way. We're not
adding an ore. >> We're we're kind of following what a whole bunch of other towns are currently doing. >> Yeah. And those are the reasons why >> on in here. Okay. Um any further discussion? >> No.
>> No. Dave >> I >> Anita >> I >> Cindy >> I >> Stephen >> I >> Elaine. >> Sam >> I. >> I'm an I. Seven in favor. No days or abstensions. Article 30. >> I make a motion to recommend article 30
zoning bylaw amendment deleting special permit references to schools submitted by the planning board as written. >> I second >> discussion. >> I personally I think it's a little sad that you don't get to but the land court has found it unlawful to do so. So hands
are tied. >> Yeah. I I I I can't say I don't agree. Yeah. I I would like I mean I I think there there's a really truly is an impact. >> No, no, I know I agree that there's >> no I'm agreeing with you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm I'm disagreeing with the unlawful nature, but the state but the
the court has spoken. So >> yeah. No, the it's a hand tied thing because you should be able to say I got so many bodies going to the school. Do I have to build? Do I have to know it? Because >> it takes forever to build a school >> as we're going to
>> as we're seeing right now. All right. Any further discussion >> hearing? None. Dave >> I. >> Anita. >> I. >> Cindy. >> Hi. >> Steven. >> Hi. >> Elaine. >> I. >> Sam. >> Hi. >> And I'm an I. Seven in favor. No names or extensions. Article 31.
>> Make a motion to recommend article 31 zoning bylaw amendment accessories accessory dwelling units submitted by the planning board. Add as written. >> I second. discussion. >> Did I just get through the slides one more time?
>> Sure. So, they reviewed they pointed out things they wanted changed. This is the change to section 195-6.1 C3. >> And this one was seeing that they deleted something it automatically. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Automatically becomes law. So like >> yeah, >> thank you. >> This is the second deletion that's coming out. >> And this is the updated text in in C4. So underlined is what was been added and
crossed out is what needs to be removed. >> Yeah. Not sure like >> that's really no >> sub >> really no wiggle room. >> Even like the fact that shall not be subject to a special permit criteria and shall be why we need to even write that but okay
whatever like whatever >> it doesn't >> it gets into into the minutia >> and then that's the clean version of that article and that's it
any further discussion David >> I >> Cindy >> I >> Stephen Elaine >> I Zam >> I. >> And I'm an I. I. Seven in favor. No names or abstensions. Article 32.
>> I make a motion to recommend article 32 general bylar amendment ATF grant request submitted by Arts and Technology Education Fund Committee as written. >> I second. >> Sorry. >> Oh, that was I don't know.
I'm mostly for it. >> Pam, you can decide. I heard it either. >> Okay. Sorry, Stephen. >> Discussion. >> I think it makes sense that they allow it all year round to make a submission.
>> That's fine. I have no problem with this >> because I think people forget and don't realize and then by the time >> then they miss the window deadline. >> It was a whole another year later. Yeah. It's like >> Yeah, >> it's a it's a really good project have come out of this. Mhm. >> So,
>> uh, hearing no further discussion. David >> I, >> Anita, >> I, >> Cindy, >> I, >> Steven. >> Hi. >> Elaine, >> I >> Sam >> I. >> I'm an I. Seven in favor. No needs or abstensions. Article 33. >> Make a motion to recommend article 33 home rule petition second generation
anti-coagulant rodent side prohibition submitted by town manager. >> Second. >> Discussion. Our town is no longer using these. >> Consumer can't buy them.
>> Well, there are ways to get around it online. Um but but theoretically at a big box store, you can't you're not supposed to. Yeah. The EPA outlaw except for um um commercial businesses that are doing
>> this work. So, it's really just a again a home as a home petition. It's a first step in saying, "Hey, we're joining the crowd saying that we should do this." >> U, there is no enforcement for this. We we'd have to bring if this is allowed, we'd have to bring a bylaw addressing that. And that's where um >> But this I think this doesn't this
prohibit commercial um pest control services from using this? >> No. >> Well, no. This section of it doesn't. What this section does, it says we want the ability to bring a bylaw here. Okay.
because there is no state law available. And so this is the step to say, hey, because there's no state law available, we want the authority to make our own bylaw that we can enforce. >> Okay. >> Um so this is that would be that first step. Now, the hope people that are they're proponents of this and people
support this article is that enough cities and municipalities in Massachusetts will push that way so that at the state level where there's currently pending legislation and discussions that'll go through as a statewide and be enforceable and then there would actually be no need to I
guess we still bylaw here. >> This is like hey we're thinking about doing this because we think this is really cool and then enough towns do it the state might go yeah it's a law and then we don't have to pass a law because it's a state law. that and if they the state doesn't act and they allow us to have a home rule petition, we then could put a bylaw in
that would prevent it. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And would be enforceable at that point because any any bylaw we put in wants we want we want to make sure has some teeth. >> So this is step one. >> This is step one. Yeah. This is this is the this is the hey if you don't do it we're going to do it and we want the permission to proceed
kind that's basically what it boils down to. Do I have to remove all of them? So, they're in my house now. >> I don't know. How many hawks have died around yet? >> Not many. >> Oh jeez. Good old
[Laughter] >> Well, how I guess next question is Dave, how long have they been in your house? >> Too long. >> Yeah, that's the correct answer. Decades. Um there's no enforcability right now, so I guess you got time. This is your warning
if it passes. >> Um no, but but in all seriousness, yeah, with the town's no longer using them now. Um only the commercial would would use them. So I they're they could be being used and I think based upon the uh the presentation that was given us to us
two weeks ago uh or sorry last week um they are still being used. You forgot about mice mice buffets on the roof, >> right? >> I'm not going to throw mice on my roof. Um Um but yeah. No. So I'm not going to
throw in my neighbor's yard either. I mean throwing in the woods nice ability. Maybe maybe in South Charles. I'm a North Chford. I'm not throwing it in the woods. I'm throwing it in a neighbor's yard if that happens. Um so um yeah, I have no problem um supporting
this. >> Do I? >> You do. Yeah, >> great idea. >> Okay, >> agreed. >> All right, hearing no further discussion. Dave, >> hi. >> Anita, >> I >> Cindy, >> I >> Stephen, >> I >> Sam >> Hi, >> and I'm an I. Someone in favor, no needs
or abstensions. >> Article 30. Oh, sorry. >> 34. >> Yeah, I got to get that. >> 34. >> Is this the last one? >> No. >> No, this one more. >> But I got good news of the last one.
>> Okay, that's good. Okay. Article 34. >> I make a motion to recommend article 34 submitted by John Ray, citizens petition as written. >> I second >> discussion. >> Well, I'll stop.
Who's responsible for who has responsibility for this prop this property right now? >> What it's under control it's under the conservation commission's control subject to a to transfer by the select
board. There is no currently no conservation restriction on the property. However, that's being it in process all the steps that need to be taken. If you recall, we took a vote at previous town meeting for the survey um to be done, the perimeter survey to be done. That's one of the steps in the conservation restriction. Um so there's
no CR currently on it. There needs to be a CR because of the CPA fund use. >> Um this article, I think what what this stems from really is that the property was cleared. it was under under a group of of citizens uh mainly from the culis
farm um task force essentially that and and people that were helping with them that were maintaining after the DBW had done the initial work to clear and it that was a undertaking uh and it's and there's still stuff that needs to be done such as the cement pads and stuff like that
that need to be addressed and there's still clean up that's being done there are invasives there none of that work is being prevented it's the this boils down to between a 3 acre and a half acre and a half parcel of land. And maybe I have
the I might actually have the the um the map here that was sent this afternoon or this morning. >> Yep. Here we go. >> Can you make that bigger? >> I'm going to try.
screen. I think a picture. >> There you go. There's a fire. >> I'll sort of pull it out. Okay. So, what this really boils down to and and I I don't think it's clear in the article. I think had this article been presented as
we want this section of land uh to be designated this would be a much clearer ask. >> I'm not I'm still not sure it'd be prop appropriate or appropriate to bring it through town meeting. I think it's more of a discussion with the conservation
commission and with the select board than it is with town meeting. But when you don't get the answer you're looking for or it's not clear, I think that's where what led to this petition to to to begin with. I think some miscommunication, some misunderstanding, and then it's really the that left acre,
left field acre and the picnic table section. And even even the picnic table section, I think the discussion is they're still going to put picnic tables there from the conseration commission and their discussion on on on Tuesday night. from what I gleaned um the so
it's really this this left field one acre one and a half acre type area that that that um enclosed lined area that that was cleared as part of the actions the cool
task force that in March or May of this past year the conservation commission said well let's pump the brakes let's not continue mowing that area uh while we're working on on the conservation restriction with the um uh with the the holders of of who are going to be the
holders of the of the restriction. Um because we think maybe the better use this might be for to revert to Meadow as opposed to it being cleared as as more of a function space, a more manicured type space like Redwind Farm. And then so discussion that's more recently
happening from my understanding from what John Rey has said and from what um Carl said both at Tuesday our meeting last week and from the emails is that there's some discussion of you know how much of this area might we leave open
like that like a Redwing farm versus letting it revert to a meadow. Um that's what the real crux behind it is. But what the article is asking us is not the same. It's it's it's basically saying advisory
>> um tell the select board to tell the conservation commission not to do anything that would prevent this from being that >> is kind of what I interpreted the article to be. Uh, and so
I'll say what my personal feeling on that portion is is I I do think we would benefit from having some event type space there. >> Uh, I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with that being maintained, especially it's being maintained by volunteers. >> Um,
it's a it's a smaller section and I I I do I do think that's a a good supported idea, but I don't think that was that's what the article is kind of saying. What I was trying to get from from John earlier when he was presenting is is there anything preventing that space from being that space if we if he has to
either pull it back and and he doesn't get what he wants and has to bring it to the spring and not it's not necessarily the man the work that has to be done because even if it overgrows again and they allow it yeah there's more work to be done because more's grown back but it can still be brought back to that
location. I think the bigger concern I might have is if a restriction goes in, the conservation restriction between now and then that prevents that that area from being used like that that purposefully identifies that as a meadow and says you can't you
can't use that location for anything other than it being reverted to a meadow type thing which could be included. I'm not saying it's going to be. I'm not saying that's what they're discussing, but I think that would be that would be my only concern about pulling an article and not bringing it if you have to in
spring is if something went into a conservation restriction between now and then that would prevent what the ultimate concern is from the coolest task farm force. >> That would be my only concern. >> And who writes the the um restrictions?
town council in work with the conservation commission and and the conservation agent and also um the uh the holders of the restriction which I believe is Stonem. >> Oh, sorry. Sbury Valley Trust. >> Yeah. >> This is a conservation commission issue,
right? Whether or not it is they're listen like and I think you know by bring by doing the citizens petition >> they're getting their attention but they feeling that they're like >> right >> are not being heard. Um, and I'm glad
that they're now talking and coming to a >> compromise. >> Um, so I understand like bringing it to town meeting and >> to your point, I wish it was written differently so we could actually vote on it. Um,
>> and it's unfortunate that it has to go through this process and it has to go to like we're already here, but I'm glad that whatever it >> and I'm not sure it had to go through this process. I it it's there's a whole lot of miscommunication, >> but they're talking now. So hopefully it
gets pulled and we don't have to vote a floor on it on town meeting. Everybody's happy. >> So it sounds like you're in the camp of deferring a vote or taking no action. >> I I'm I'm fine voting on like voting on this as
is. Um >> because I probably would vote in all honesty, I probably would vote no because it doesn't do anything. >> It doesn't do anything and it and it is >> it's very different from the conversation we're having the way it's written and it was very different
>> um by what Mr. Ray was saying tonight and the fact that he uh seems very pleased at the at the progress that he's making with Carl and and the other and the other principles that um I I'm still not sure why we would go go through with
this. Allow that work to be done. Um and then if he needs to readress it at at Springtown meeting, then so be it. But sounds like the work is being done in a favorable way and they're coming to conclusions. Yeah, my my worry is that if we vote on
it and because of the way it's structured and it's it's very vague and and imagine that we all say, "Well, that's too vague to really pass muster." And we vote no, then the signal might be we don't believe in this or you know, we we'd give a signal that is different than maybe the intention. >> Well, that's what we I would want to
write something like I would be like, you know, voting no because in essence, this really doesn't do anything. However, you know, I strongly, you know, agree with what what he wants, right? You know, this and I hope and I would want something that says like I hope they like kind of work together at that
like I would, you know, >> I because then the other flip side is every time some like someone's not working with a committee like are they going to do a citizens petition to bring it to town meeting and we're going to go through this over and over. This is really not the place. That's one of my concerns, >> right? Like, so again, I would
>> which is why I'm I'm more in the in the in the in the no action or the or the abstain uh route. I think if we do take a vote on this, I will probably abstain because I I don't think the voting either way. >> Yeah. >> But I'm not saying we we we have a
motion on the table in a second. So we're that's why we're discussing it. >> Um the vote is in the affirmative. The motion rather is in the affirmative. >> Yes. >> Um so we would vote if you're not in support of this article, you'd vote against it. If you do not want to vote on it, um you would you would say you
abstain and it's perfectly acceptable. Um or we can we can pull the article and take no action. Those those are real or we can wait. >> I don't think we gain anything by waiting until town meeting. Um given what where we currently are. >> Maybe something will change, but at that
point um I don't think our position on it will matter much at that point. >> In all honesty, I don't think like anybody's going to care. Yeah. >> I'm not sure if people care about our position on this. again recommendation, right? >> Yeah. >> But but I'm hung up on the on the
wording. The wording doesn't match the discussion and that's where I'm hung up. >> And that's that's a fair >> that's a hard it's a hard stop for me. I >> That's fine. >> And I'm the only my only concern is I'd rather they worked it out. >> Yeah. >> And you know did it that way um rather
than bring it to town meeting. And of course, my other concern is I just don't like having to have a vote the night of town meeting. We have done it before. >> Usually, it's approving uh a a new
contract with uh our unions. Okay. Although one didn't work out very well, did it? Okay. >> It it actually No, it to be fair and I guess it I've been on the on the committee in a longer time. Um, twice it's been that a lot of times it's
been other things. The >> I don't have that experience. >> Yeah. >> Okay. But the experience I have Yep. I get it. >> Not more painful than mine. >> So other than that, I mean, I think they're trying to do the right.
>> Yeah. I think they are. >> What they're trying to do is fine >> and fine. An acre and a half of cleared land. I I agree with that. I just don't agree with this. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But that you're saying is that don't say that. >> It doesn't say it. >> No, it doesn't. >> It doesn't say it. >> No, it doesn't. >> Not at all.
>> And we could write something like that in the book. We vote against it. We could say >> maybe we just vote on this and abstain or whatever we do with it. >> Yeah, it's fine. >> And then wait to see what comes next. >> Makes sense to me. >> Okay,
>> cool. >> So, we have a motion on the table. Um any further discussion hearing? None. David >> abstain. >> Anita. >> Oh, you guys all going to abstain on this?
>> We're we're we're we're voting right now. >> We can if you'd like to uh take the vote and then bring a motion for reconsideration. I'm sure I would listen to it. >> Um but we're voting now. There was no further >> discussion. You know what I'm saying? Because I want so I'm a no but I want to write what I like like if you write
>> you can do that. >> There's nothing preventing you from one then I'll abstain. I'll do >> that's not the way it works. You do you >> have one abstension. >> I'm not sure yet. Can go around. >> Sandy
>> abstain. >> Stephen >> abstain. >> Elaine >> abstain. Sam, >> no. >> Thank you, Sam. Then I'm a no. >> Extension. So, it's five extensions and two nos. >> And then we can write in the book. It's
like >> we we support what he was saying. >> Yeah. We'll discuss that right after right after we're done the final vote. So, the final vote is article 35. And I believe that there's no action on this. Correct. >> No action. >> Okay. So,
>> we want to discuss that. No. All right. So, um given we've gone through discussion of fall town meeting articles and provided our recommendations on the same was discuss the future meetings and timeline for the finance committee warrant and put production. So, um let me just bring up the I will bring up the timeline this
time if I can find it. It's too small. There we go. The last one. Oh, that doesn't help us. That's still small. All right. So, we've taken our vote. Um Sep It's Today, September September
September 25th. Um the last day we could have voted would have been next week, October 2nd, but that conflicts with the schedule for ZVA. So that's why we went today, October 3rd. Um Pam will email the book to the committee for review. So all the all the article information,
things like that will go out around October 3rd, which is next Friday. Uh October 6th will be the date. So 3rd was a Friday. The sixth is a Monday. Final inputs, comments, and edits. the clerk. Also,
the chairman's letter would be due then. So, the book can be delivered to the printer and posted the web page uh and then delivered to town hall so it's ready for the pre-Town meeting which is on the um 15th of October Wednesday at the senior
center. Um, and for those watching, uh, both citizens and also especially town meeting reps, it is a great way to get your your questions answered ahead of time and to understand the articles prior to town meetings so that you have a better understanding of what we're going to be voting on. Um, it's a very
informative and and uh uh factual meeting. Uh, and then spring fall town meeting, excuse me, starts on October 20th. Um and it will be likely two nights um because there'll be um a lot of the articles that are financial the first night and then the zoning articles will likely be pushed until that
Thursday night that on the uh 23rd of October. Um, so speaking to your comment earlier, Elaine, uh, regarding um, things like, well, I guess it would be Kate's Corner article and, uh, Coolest Farm article, uh, for explanations as to
why you voted a different way than the majority or I guess the case of 34, why you voted as a majority, two in favor, um, uh, if you can put your thoughts in in your thought process into into a paragraph or so about why you voted the
way you voted. Um, I will in I will include that in the chairman letter. Um, so that uh that explanation at the front of the finance committee book is is available for people. >> So the uh you talking the family one, the Kate Connor one just
>> so so Stephen I'd I'd ask you uh for for your your reasoning behind why you voted a certain way. The reason I do it that way is because if if we had a whole bunch of different >> people saying it, the the voice wouldn't sound the same. But I will try to stay as true as possible to what you've written uh in in the voice of the of the
letter. >> So you think the other ones are less >> for those? We we we know why we vote. If you if there's a particular thing you want to add, certainly send it to me. But I if we all voted in favor of an article, I I think we all we all know why we vote in favor article and so it
just becomes an explanation as to the article and why we why the discussion behind what happened here. Do >> you have lot lots of people polling when it isn't when it's all unanimous? I'm I'm sorry. I didn't >> Okay. I when I've seen polling like I'd
like to pull the the select. I'd like to pull the the B on their votes and it's usually when the select men of the planning board or whoever had a split vote and I've never seen it like everybody said yes and then they pulled. >> So it has happened Elaine. It's it's not frequent but it has happened. You get
somebody town meeting rep who um just thinks the opposite way of the recommendations. they're going to poll the board. So, it does happen. >> It'll also be if if we voted a different way than another another committee or another board, right? Um they want to hear the each individual's reasoning
behind why they did a certain way because they want to make it part of their argument. >> So, how would you find out that the select board and the finance board were at didn't didn't agree? Like, how would you know their vote? >> Well, because the the select board has already voted. Actually, they voted on Monday night, >> right? U
>> but I don't know what it is. Well, it well, you could certainly watch the meeting. It's been televised. It's been recorded. If people that did watch the meeting would know, they are also able to ask the committee uh well, first of all, sorry. Uh you'd have um as you see during town meeting at every town
meeting, uh the chairs of each committee say or asked by the moderator what our vote and recommendation was and we typically say what the vote breakdown was. Um, so I will say typically the finance committee uh recommends approval of article 34 with a vote of with a
unanimous vote or something to that to that effect. If it's not unanimous that the town would then know, oh, there's a there's a split vote between how they voted and and and then then they could go and be pulled as to why. >> Town meeting runs a little late for me who have to go to the job in the morning. So I usually leave at 10:00. So
that's why I wanted to know what would be contentious and what not because sometimes I'm not going to be there when they push it till 11. If I if I if I don't leave by 10 o'clock, I can't wake work the next day. >> Okay. I >> And so I don't want to leave you like hanging, but it's sort of like, uh,
okay. That's why I want to know what's contentious, what's not, so that I could put it in the what you feel would be contentious so I can put it in the letter. So I, you know, I have my statement. I don't want >> I don't think that any any of the votes we voted unanimously on are going to be different or were different than those
voted by the select board. Um, so the only differences really are in um, coolest uh, sorry, Kate's Corner article which is 28 oh no 27 I think it is. Um, and then 34 Coolest Farm. Um, so those
two and and and to be fair on on Coost Farm technically an abstension is is a is a nonvote. It's not a no vote. It's a present vote. Um, and so we also had two no votes and no yay votes. And so because of that, it matches the vote
that was taken Monday night of the select board where they also voted no uh in unan in unanimity. Um so um I don't think there's going to be a lot of contention between the two boards this go around. >> No, no, but just the contention you again the polling I've only noticed
polling when it's like a three to three to two or four to se four to four to three where it's been like a very split down the middle. I I don't see the polling when it's just one person having a disagree. >> So, I've been on the board for for three years. This is my third third year. >> I've been pulled once,
>> right? So, this it's not like it happens every meeting or every other article or it's it's not very often at all. >> Very rare. >> Very rare. Yeah. This is not something you should worry about, honestly. >> Are you concerned about, you know, your your logic or your >> Oh, not concerned about my logic. I'm
concerned that I I turn into a pumpkin at 10 p.m. and have to go home. Because I think in the unanimous decisions then usually the chair speaks on behalf of the rest of the board and because we're unanimous then it kind of >> tells the story. >> But again if there's something
specifically you want to address send it to me and I'll include it in in the letter. >> Yeah. I I would probably include my abstension from the coolest farm is because what the gentleman was describing was not what was in the article. >> Okay. So on that one, and that's one of
the ones where we we I would ask people to to email me. So you you don't have to. So that's one thing about abstensions. You certainly can explain why you abstained. Um but with an abstension, because it's a present vote or it's a nonvote, you don't have to explain. Um so you're welcome not to do
that, but you certainly are welcome to email me and let me know and I'll include that in the letter. >> All right. Any any other discussion on on on the the letter of the book? I think we're pretty clear on that now. All right.
So, that brings us to >> public opinion. >> Public comment. >> All got anything? >> Paul? >> No. No other. No other public there. Nothing in the Zoom room. I will entertain a motion to adjourn.
I make a motion to adjourn the meeting. >> Second. All >> in favor? >> I see everybody at town meeting. >> I >> We don't. >> Yes, we do. Every vote taken when the zoom room present has to be roll call.
>> Go ahead. >> David, >> I Anita, >> I >> Cindy. Steve. >> Hi. I >> Sam >> close out dear. >> Hi. Thanks. I'll see you at 10.