WEBVTT

METADATA
Video-Count: 1
Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=YaZO4AUFaSs

NOTE
MEETING SECTIONS:

Part 1 (Video ID: YaZO4AUFaSs):
- 00:01:30: Meeting Called to Order and Public Input Introduction
- 00:02:19: Public Comment: Haididers Dispute With Loop Real Estate
- 00:09:09: Evan Discusses Town's Role and Inspection Process
- 00:25:21: Public Comment: Joseph Haidider Details Fence Quality
- 00:26:59: Lady Slipper Lane Continuation Motion and Vote
- 00:27:48: Community Development Director Report and Mall Project
- 00:30:09: Laz Updates: Contract Yard Definitions Inquiry
- 00:31:46: Conservation Commission Updates and New Business Intro
- 00:32:41: New Business: Introduction to Data Center Zoning
- 00:34:54: Data Center Zoning: Technology, Utility Use, Examples
- 00:47:22: Data Center Discussion: Limiting Based On Town Control
- 00:50:52: Data Center Discussion: Defining Use and Tiering Mechanism
- 01:02:34: Data Center Zoning: Action Items and Cooling Research
- 01:04:58: Old Business: 210 Boston Road Little Peach Intro
- 01:06:23: 210 Boston Road: Discussion of CB Light Zoning
- 01:10:21: 210 Boston Road: Cleanup, CB Light, Lumber Yard
- 01:15:38: Discussion: Defining Small Restaurants In Use Table
- 01:19:12: 210 Boston Road: Pursue CV Light Zoning In Area
- 01:21:18: Gap Analysis, Manage Growth Strategy Updates
- 01:25:09: Manager Transition, Transitioning Out of Growth Committee
- 01:27:37: Managed Growth Second Planning Board Member Vote
- 01:28:40: Updates: Riverneck, Contractor Yard Tiered Definitions
- 01:31:52: Contractor Yard Tiered Definitions Review
- 01:35:59: Difficulties Visualizing Tier Structure, Visual Aids
- 01:42:32: Contractor Yard Defintions: Regulating Heavy Equipment
- 01:45:06: Parking, Fleet, and Definition of Number of Vehicles
- 01:47:27: Discussion: Define Contractor's Vehicles at Facilities
- 01:51:33: Contract Facilities: New and Approved, Non-Conforming
- 01:56:11: Action Items: Contractor Yard Defintions and Future Meetings
- 01:57:04: Meeting Minutes and Adjournment


Part: 1

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7:00 7:01 on uh Wednesday, May 27th and I'm calling this meeting of the Chsford Planning Board to order. My name is Chris Lavali and I'm the chair of the board. Tonight we will be following the posted agenda. The meeting tonight is both in person and via Zoom. If Zoom

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fails at any point in the meeting, we'll continue in person. The meeting is being televised live and recorded from Chelms Teledia and will be available on their website and on YouTube. So, first item on the agenda is public input. It will be limited to statements

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from the public relating to any issues within our jurisdiction, but are not the current subject of a pending official public hearing before us. Public comment on any pending public hearings should will only be heard during those public hearings.

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>> So, is there any member of the public who wishes to speak tonight? Come up to the podium and please state your name and address for the record. >> I am Mary Ellen Haidider. I live at 29 Camlin Road. Basically tonight, my husband and I, Joseph, we are here to

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speak to the board about an issue that we're having with the commercial property located at 12 KD Road that abuts our property. Uh we've been before this board in the past, but uh many of you are new and probably don't know the

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history of our problem. However, we've had a boundary issue with the owners of 12 KD Road. Um, in March of 2025, after eight long years, we were scheduled for a court hearing regarding um, a boundary dispute.

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And basically, the judge told both parties that this issue did not belong in his court and to settle out of court. And the reason that it also took so long was because of COVID and constantly being bumped. Um, so my husband and I

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with the help of our lawyer entered into a settlement agreement in April of 2025 with Loop Real Estate who is the owners of 12k road. As part of the settlement agreement, the boundary lines were to be surveyed again by both parties surveyors with the parties present and parties

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agreed to the boundary lines. To date, that's never happened. Upon agreement, Loop would install granite bounds mocking the boundaries of the properties. To date, that has happened. Perloop Real Estate. They stated we broke the agreement. We did not break

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the agreement. As we started doing what we needed to do as part of our agreement, they issued a cease and desist against us in May of 2025. After receive assist and deceased, um nothing took place in or around the

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disputed area till April of 2026. on or around April 10th of 2026, an email was issued to our lawyer stating that since we broke the agreement, they would be clearing the area between their property and ours and we'd be working in the disputed area and for us to not

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disturb or talk to their contractors. Our lawyers spoke with us and drafted a letter back to them by April 14th. Um, as far as we're concerned, they b they broke the agreement by giving us a cease and disorder um disease and desist order, excuse me, when we were

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fulfilling the agreement um to remove earth material as agreed. Um on April 21st, 2026, a contractor showed up and started clearing the area. When I went out to speak with the contractor, he opened his door of the machine, stated he did not talk with me,

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um and that the police were on their way. It turns out there was a police officer on Chamberlain on the Chamberlain roadside of the Haidider property and in the culde-sac. Per the officer, he was hired by Loop Real Estate as a detail. He came to talk with my husband and I in our backyard. John

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Beini, who's Loop Real Estate, uh told the officer he had a court order, which there was no court order given. We explained what was happening and my husband told the officer that we would provide a copy of the settlement agreement which we did and suggested he ask them for paperwork. He said he would

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get a copy of their paperwork and would submit to his boss. We called our lawyer who's Mr. Douglaser and he spoke to us but said he was out of the country at the time and for us to document what we could and would we would deal with it when he returned. We took numerous photos and that is why we're here this

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evening. Since this time, Loop Real Estate has taken it upon themselves to remove the temporary white vinyl fence and moved it to the surveyor stakes that they've say is where the stakes should be. Um, and

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so now the installation of the fence to us is unacceptable. They took it upon themselves to move it themselves. Move it themselves. They've broken the caps off the tops of the vinyl fence. Um they did not hire professionals.

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Um they have put uh poles in the ground and they're too short. They placed p plastic buckets in the ground and stuck the poles in the bucket and filled the buckets with cement. And

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I have photos. I have Evan um he can u show them for us. And I'm saying to you guys, would you accept a contractor doing something like that along your boundary lines? I don't think it's acceptable. And then um also between May 5th and 7th, Loop Real Estate um we've

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seen them driving in. They come in with machinery. They come in with golf carts in the um disputed area. Um and they dropped off trees to be installed. Now, as part of the order of conditions, um we were to get two rows of aravites

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prior to construction starting. Well, because of our boundary dispute, we had to come before the board to get clarification back in 2223. We were put off several months. We finally got them to come in and we agreed at the time for

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one row of abides until the boundary dispute was was resolved. So, the trees they've now brought in um they're these tiny little skinny trees. They've kind of put them in between the existing trees that they put

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in a few years ago. And according to the order of conditions, the trees should be 2 and 1/2 ines in in caliber and 6 to 8 feet tall. And we're not seeing any of that. Um,

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so that's where we're at today. And so I've provided some photos. We had a professional come in because we're not allowed to stop, you know, step on their land or anything like that. So Evan is now showing a row there. The row

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right at behind the white fence, that's just an area where they've designated, I guess, so they can walk back and forth and do what they need for their trees. The shed is ours. The area in front of the shed is our garden. We haven't done anything with it this year because we're

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not exactly sure what their plans are or if they've sprayed in that area. We used to have grape vines and stuff in that area. It's all gone. So, um that's why we're here this evening. We don't know what our next recourse should be. Um but

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we don't feel what they have planted and put in its place is acceptable. nor is the the fence um buckets in the ground with poles holding the fence, you know, cemented in. I don't know if it's

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eventually going to fall over or not. >> So, >> thank you, Evan. Do you have anything to add? Um, I'll just say, um, the hiders have, uh, been into meet with me a couple times over the, uh, the last, uh, series

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of months. Uh, they've provided, uh, some initial photos, uh, before this official submission. Um, what I've what I've indicated to the hiders is what I'll say to the board. Um, the the town is not a party to the settlement agreement,

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>> right? Um, I've assured the hiders that this project be treated like any other project whereby um if and when they they uh request either partial or full occupancy that triggers submission of partial or full asbuilts, DPW does a a

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verification of those related to storm water. I do a site inspection on behalf of the planning board to ensure compliance with above ground features, landscaping, lighting, parking lot, striping, signage, things of that nature. Um,

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uh, and then David Kun through the conservation also has a a permit on a portion of this property. So, uh, as of right now, it's it's, uh, still, I guess, an active construction site, even though they're substantially complete

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with much of the work. I have not have been out there recently and I I don't intend to go out there until a um some sort of occupancy is is requested. U when that is requested again I'll bring the plans

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uh document um quantity and location of landscape material um location of fencing. Um we do not inspect for uh quality of craftsmanship uh unless let's say the fence is like

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leaning or you know there are missing or broken pieces. Um so and then as as we all know uh something can be in compliance one day and then a week or two later it falls

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out of compliance. Uh so as the board knows and many people in the community know uh unfortunately that process requires in a butter to you know notify town hall of an alleged violation and that triggers town staff going out and

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you know doing an inspection and doing um followup and enforcement if necessary. >> So is this an active property? There's I have photos of the area aerial wise if you'd like to look what Kder Road looks like because I don't know

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where a lot of these you folks live in town. Um I gave Evan a bunch of photos if he wants to. They're in the aerial. It is active. >> So if it's an active property, then

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>> how would they need an occupancy permit? >> It's that's it's an active construction site. There is no there's no occupancy on it right now. >> There's a building the building is up. It's been up for two years. Why it's taken them so long?

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They came before this board in September of 2016 and got their approval. They wound up letting the the um permits lapse. They had to come back in 2019. And um that's my our backyard that

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overlooks. Now, when you go to the back of their property and look, there's the retention pond. There's the first row of arborites that are all huge. And then the little it looks wonderful from their side of the property, but then you look at our side of the property and it

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doesn't look that great. I mean, all we see is Evan, if you could go to I think one of them might have a picture of our backyard. It might be on the PDFs. >> PDFs, >> that's the area we're responsible for clearing up. And they gave us a cease to

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We live right next to Route 495 going northbound. So we have 495 on one side. We have them behind us. When we first bought our property, we had a hund foot buffer and there was nothing but our so you couldn't even see in there. When they

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went to develop this land, they like came up to the property line. There was a covenant, but the covenant had expired um in order to stay away from the property line, I guess, is what I want to say. And so we have that. And then on

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the other side of us, we have a 40B development that was Hillside Gardens. So, I mean, we've been at this property 29 years. And the amount of change and, you know, as my husband was alluding a little earlier, um, you know, watching

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you guys and you're going over new zoning laws and changing, you know, the CB light and this and introducing commercial closer to residential. I mean, we live it every day with and

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unfortunately they're just not nice nice neighbors to us. They never have been. They don't want to talk to us. When we see other other um developments that come up and the developers are at least willing to listen to the neighbors and work with them, we've never had this

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here and we are the only home impacted by this. Um my house, I'm at the end of Chamberlain. happens to sit farther back from the road near this property. None of my other neighbors are impacted, just us. So, every time we come before you, I

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don't have a neighborhood behind me. We're just one family, you know, and it just gets very frustrating. >> Do we have any indication of when the occupancy permit might >> I think it's sooner, very like sooner

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than later. Okay. I would expect. I mean, I don't think there's much more work to be done out there is a sense I get. >> Okay. >> Um >> because there's really not much we can do until that occupancy permit is requested and then that triggers the

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inspections and as built. >> What about the condition about having the albites a certain height when they were doing the >> Yeah. So, um, as you know, all of the plans have, um, spec specific specifications for, um, size of planting.

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>> So, I'll I'll literally, you know, pull the file out, >> then, you know, walk the site and if it calls for, you know, uh, 6 to 8 foot at planting, then, you know, that's that's what that's what's required. So, we're not a part of the settlement agreement,

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but after the settlement agreement was determined, they as I recall, both parties came back >> um and requested that we sort of ratify or >> I think that was prior to settlement uh court proceedings. There was like an

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interim interim plan >> that that allowed a temporary relocation of a temporary fence as I recall. Well, all I all I recall is that is that both parties were in agreement. >> Yes. >> About what they had submitted to the

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board to ratify. Okay. So, those are the plans that are going to be used to >> No. >> Okay. >> No, those plans what you were talking about are the temporary conditions while the while the the litigation was

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okay. Being determined. >> Yeah. And then the final plans are what Evan would use. >> Okay. Okay. >> So, last year when we were in the process of doing what we needed to do as part of the settlement agreement, we had a a a wall down our driveway that had an

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earth bm behind it. Well, they own a sliver of the land that ran behind that wall. And they said, "Well, you have to get that dirt out of there. That's our land." So, as part of during the settlement agreement, we said, "Well,

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listen, it's residential." Evan has told them numerous times, you can't do anything with it. Plus, there's a water mane that comes down Chamberlain Road. My house actually, it comes up that it's the there's an easement with the water

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district. Our house is attached to that that water line. So, we don't want anyone driving in there. And Evan has told them, "It's residential. you can't do anything with it. We offered to buy it. They said no. We off we asked for an

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easement. They said no. So to kind of settle a lot of this, my husband said, "Let's just take down our stone wall. We'll rebuild it and we'll take the earth out." So as we were starting to do that last year, we only had 45 days to

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do that. We started and about a week or two before our deadline, they gave us a cease and desist to stop. And our lawyer's like, "Well, why?" We never got an answer. Why? Never spoke to us again. And to this day, we still don't even

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know if that cease and desist, you know. So, my side of my property along my driveway and everything looks terrible and it's just left that way because we're not supposed to be doing anything. Yeah. So, I think at this point it all

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that we can do is wait for the um occupancy permit request and then Evan will inspect based on the plans and then if things are not up to the plans, they will have to redo things. >> What the What are the time limits on on

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approving an occupancy permit request? >> I'm not sure what you're >> giving one. >> Well, somebody comes in and and and says, you know, give us an occupancy request. >> We from the from the time they ask for occupancy, it's a couple could be up to

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upwards of a couple weeks for all. >> So there is time when the occupancy permit is requested. There will be a uh a planning board meeting that could take place before that is actually granted. What I'm worried about is the thing gets

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granted without us being able to have a look. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean c you know certain like my as I as I indicated um my entrance to the subject property 12ker >> will be based upon an official request

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for action. >> Okay. >> Um I'm not suggesting that board members can go on 12kder but I think board members with the permission of the hiders can you know can visit visit the hiders property. >> I'll forward all these um >> if can I keep the thumb drive so I

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>> Yeah. Can I come back and get it though in another day? >> I'll forward out these these photos to to board members. You can get a better a better sense. Um, you know, the the the complicating issue is the settlement agreement and apparently there are uh provisions

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within the agreement that the parties disagree to what extent they've been complied with. >> So, I have a question. The settlement agreement was done as part of mediation as requested by the judge. >> Mhm. Okay. And when you have a settlement agreement in med that's

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arrived at in mediation, what who's the governing body for the settlement agreement? >> If someone's agrieved, I I would think it's probably the judge. >> Who made them make it? Even though he didn't have anything to do with the making, >> right? >> So that would have to go back to the court.

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>> If a party's ag parties agree that they don't agree, >> agrieved if they're agrieved. >> Well, I don't. >> No, I I right. That's why I think you're hearing the haiders say that they're engaged with their council who was involved in the settlement agreement.

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>> I mean, there must be some governing body and it's certainly not us, correct? That manages a settlement agreement and how do you mitigate? >> We truly want to go back at this point in time. The last year has been very trying on myself and my husband. My husband's been very ill and is recovering. Um

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and so basically we just want this finished and done, you know. Um we were supposed to what was supposed to happen was our surveyor and their surveyor was supposed to get together. >> All parties were supposed to be there.

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So >> that never happened. >> Right. >> Our our surveyor has since passed away. So to try to get somebody new involved, I said to my husband, I'm just done. You know, you know, it's >> right. So, so >> we just want resolution.

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>> So, just to that point, in lie of the hiders uh going back to the court system, I've I've assured the hiders and what I'm telling the board tonight is that the original planning board approved plans

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will be the plan of record. Those are the ones that I think the hiders understand is what will be 100% compliant as part of occupancy. >> Yeah. But with the does that still just deal with the dispute on where the boundary lines? >> So So again, I've I've spoken with the

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hiders in lie of them continuing um the litigation of the settlement agreement. the the only plan of record that the planning board in the town has is that original plan.

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So I've I've indicated to the hiders to you know to what extent are you comfortable with the location of the fence as it as it is installed. If this proceeds in accordance with the planning board approval, then it's assumed

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that the new fence is in is installed in the appropriate location. There's no indication from the hiders that that they uh want to you know revisit the settlement um >> not after waiting eight years to go to court.

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>> Right. So my understanding and I think what we're discussing today is as this proceeds it will be the original planning board approval that is the plan of record. So everything from the fence line into the subject property is what will be inspected.

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>> But why wouldn't it be the old fence line that they just moved arbitrarily? >> Because that was my my understanding is that that was what was disputed and settled. The only way for the only way for that white fence to be

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relocated is for the hiders to re to revisit the settlement agreement >> and to hire a surveyor and reservey everything. And >> didn't the other company move it? >> At this point though, if they're comfortable with the plans, that's what

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we're going to go with. >> When were the original plans approved? How long ago was that? >> September of 2016. >> It's been a long time. >> 10 years. What kind of business is it going to be? >> We don't know. It's They've got 20 bay garments,

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>> multiple bays. >> So, we do need to keep moving, but I think at this point, um Evan, once that is triggered, you'll do the inspection, you'll bring it back to the board. >> I can I can update the board.

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>> Yeah, please do. Um, and if there's anything that isn't aligned, we'll take a look at it from the board's perspective. >> That's all we can ask. >> We wanted to bring it to your attention

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because also we see >> all the new zoning that you're trying to put in and >> Well, we're trying to prevent things like this happening. >> Yes. So my suggestion would be, you know, you make the the commercial at

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least 50 to 75 ft away and really nice screening, not these little rinky dink trees. Um, you know, it's it hasn't done us well at all. >> Okay. Thank you.

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>> You're welcome. Thank you. >> All right. Any other members? >> Can I just say something very brief? I promise >> if you could just state your name and address for the record. >> Same address, 29 Chamberlain Road. Um, when you guys when Evan does share the photos, you'll see the fences not only up and down, but it's crooked like this.

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The agreement was they'd have a fence company and they did it themselves. The fence is about a foot foot and a half off the ground and there's a retention pond on their side of the fence. And I said to the wife, "Well, we're going to have to do something because all that

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any waterfall or whatever gets in there, which there's always something skunks or whatever, they're going to start coming into our yard under the fence." >> Now, I had a coyote the other night came down the driveways back and forth and I think it went under the fence because there's enough room you could lay down and roll under.

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>> And I I don't I mean, I've been in construction for 60 years. I've worked in 26 towns. I've done site work, septic water, sewer, drainage, paving, excavating, trucking, you name it, I've done it all. Gas work and everything. I've never seen such poor quality

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>> work. Um, but that's you'll see it in the photos. >> Okay. >> You know, as you look through, >> right? >> Um, if you have any questions on them, you're welcome to call us and >> try to fill you in, but they're pretty obvious. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. And they also took out a

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wall. We we agreed to a small portion. They took the whole thing out. And when they dug by the abivites, which they weren't supposed to touch, you'll see one of the photos. The abivites are brown about this high right now. They ripped all the roots out. >> That' be another situation for us to deal with. >> Okay.

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>> Thank you for your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Any other members of the public wish to speak? Anyone on Zoom? All right. Moving on. We have the Lady Slipper Elaine public hearing with a

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request for continuation to June 10th. So I will entertain a motion. >> I move that we uh continue the Lady Slipper Lane uh hearing until June 10th. >> Motion by Mike. >> Seconded. >> Second. Who said that? Marcy. Second by

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Marcy. All in favor? >> Unanimous. >> What do we have on the 10th now? Evan, >> uh, that's the only >> that's the only hearing, >> the only regulatory item. >> Okay. >> And Riverneck, right? >> Yeah. Riverneck will be on the 10th.

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>> Yeah. >> All right. Community development director's report. >> Just uh, two quick items. Uh, I'm in the process of working with uh, Nimcog to submit the uh, second grant for the second phase of the managed growth strategy.

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>> That's due um, by June 3. Uh the second item is on June 10th uh departments will be uh doing a preliminary meeting uh with the mall project. Um this is um a different

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concept than what was previously um submitted for a public hearing. same applicant, uh, same general, uh, location on along Chumpster Street, but an entirely different project, different scope and scale. Um, if that

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goes well, that should set the stage for a submission at some point. >> Um, so I'll keep the board updated on that. That's all I have. Um, I would just add that you had Evan had suggested in the past that, you know, it's it's an

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in informative meeting to go to and I went to one. and several of us have been to them. I mean, if you've never been to one and you're interested, this might be a good one to I mean, don't you don't really have any thing to say, but it's worth seeing it

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go around the room and see what all the various departments have for thoughts and concerns. >> This will be June 10th. What time? >> 2:30. Any objection to having a planning board member?

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>> No. Um uh John will I assume John will be sitting in. Usually the manager uh sits in on those meetings. >> Not may John >> uh on I think in years past we've invited it up to two members. So if two members want to uh

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>> I'd be inclined. >> You'd be interested. >> Yep. >> Okay. >> So Mike and John, >> what time is that? The 330. >> 230. >> Sure. Take that off of my calendar then. >> I'm gonna take it off of my calendar.

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>> On yours. >> I just put it in. >> Oh, >> Le is on updates. >> Anyone with nothing here? >> Huh? >> I just been quiet. >> Just wanted to mention that um >> quiet. on. Um I did send a an email to

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um eight member towns uh that belong to to the Northern Middle Sex Council of Governments just asking that we we had talked about of um their definitions on indoor and outdoor contract yards and just anything that they had and I said, you know, if the planning board member

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couldn't answer or didn't have a specific information, if they could forward it along to their community development director or zoning officer if they didn't have a community development director. ctor, but um I received replies back from um Tuksbury,

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>> Tingsboro, and Dunstable. And um the reason I didn't forward them along, there's really the definitions like that we're working on that you developed, they're much more specific. They're really they're really sort of vague. So, I didn't think they would be helpful.

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And um one town um Tukbury allows it in two different two different zone. They allow contract yards in just two zones only, but they have different totally different terminology than what we have. So, um, unfortunately, I don't have a lot to report on that, but okay, just

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the three out of the eight did respond. >> Thank you. Anything else for laz updates from the conservation commission? Um, they did also continue

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Lady Slipper Lane. Um they had a hearing for request for determination of applicability for lighthouse school and 25 Wellman that was before us a while ago. Um they're adding a sport court to

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their um their landscaping. >> So basketball court um just off of the playground. So that went before the board. Um and then pretty much everything else was continued and not

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no major hearings. So, all right, any other updates? All right, we'll move on to new business. First item on new business is data center zoning overview. Um,

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I know that there's a lot of uh public interest in this one, so I'm going to preamble this one a little bit. Um, so the process that we're following uh for all of these zoning changes or potential zoning changes is uh the process that we

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followed for a number of other prior ones. Um, we have an initial discussion with the board to talk about what direction we might want to take, how we want to approach it. We have a one or two people go off and come up with a

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first draft uh to present to the board. We have an informal few meetings to talk through the um the draft until we're happy with that initial draft. And then what we will do for all of these zoning changes um once

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we get closer to fall town meeting is have a public hearing where the public can um speak to us on the proposal. We can make adjustments if needed um and uh go from there to a town meeting for the

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final proposal. Um, so these are just discussions of ideas at this point uh to come up with an initial draft that can and probably will change over time as we get to the public comment. Um but as we've seen with um most of these topics

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if if people do want to send us comments or input throughout the process even through the um informal uh sessions that we have now uh people are more than um more than welcome to email the planning board uh with their thoughts and and

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ideas. So, I just wanted to provide that overview before we get into the data center zoning discussion, which seems to be a little bit more um have public interest than some of the other topics that we were discussing

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already. All right, with that, um Joel is the one that developed this initial draft or for discussion. So, let's hand it off to Joel. >> Sure. Thank you. So first I wanted to start off with why

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you know why is it that we should consider data center zoning. We had some of that discussion already in our last our previous meeting but one of the one of the reasons is growing need for data centers due to generative AI and that's something associated with the actual

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technology. The chips themselves, AI chips that are different than typical chips generate a lot of uh heat. And so there's something unique about generative AI places where generative AI is occurring versus sort of what you would consider

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normal server farm kind of activity. So that's one thing is the technology is changing. And so that gives rise to ways in which that's being handled. um many municipalities fail to address data centers in their zoning codes. So the

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including in Massachusetts that that everyone is now starting to wake up that we need to do something about it. It typically is interpreted as being in light industrial and the way it is now is it's up to the zoning officer to try to figure out is this something that's allowed in this zone or not. So we want

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to be a little more proactive uh in that sense to better define it. Um they basically this next slide the large utility intensive util facilities don't neatly fit into tradition traditional commercial or industrial land use categories. I'm going to modify that

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some somewhat because uh in looking at it and this is why I think we want to be thoughtful about how we define it and then also thoughtful in terms of how we restrict it. Uh, and that is because there's a lot of things that are called data centers. And we had an alert

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resident who notified us that there are data centers in Chelmsford already, but you just don't know it because they aren't noticeable. Uh, and that's because I don't think that they're necessarily generative AI places. So, um, but in general, uh, and and just

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another reason is because Lel currently is reexamining their zoning. Um, there's other places that are looking at zoning. So what are the characteristics of data centers? Uh just trying to get a handle on what what is a data center and it can really range. It can range between hypers scale facilities which I don't

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think we're going to see which requires a large amount of land use and so forth. Uh so those are typically occurring in other places in the south southwest so forth and so on where there's more land. Um but then also uh there are smaller centers collocation centers and then

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edge and micro data centers. So for example, the one in Lowel is not considered a particularly large data center, but we know it is in fact impacting the neighborhood because of its proximity to the residential area. And so um so there's basically ranges of

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things. Uh and then what are the kinds of things that we would be concerned about restricting for data centers and that is having to do with backup generators uh both because of the noise that they emit but also because of storage of fuel

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for them and so forth. the cooling and water use uh in low they're using cooling towers and then also noise and aesthetic controls because of not just due to the generators but also due to exterior mechanical equipment and so

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forth and so on. Um so those are the kinds of things that are generating impacts that we want to consider. So there's two definitions I came I found. Uh there's actually more, but these are two that were sort of I thought kind of

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neatly descriptive. So I would say take a look at these. If there's some that you like, some aspects of one, you like another. We don't have to go through this today. We're not going to like start hashing out definitions or anything. It's just to show there are some definitions out there already that we can consider. Um so if you want to go

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to the next slide. So first I want to identify what are issues that we want to look at that are related to zoning and then what are zoning approaches to those issues. I want to separate those ideas. So, I sort of already hit on some of these ones,

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the backup generators, and there's various aspects of that in terms of air quality, pollution control, noise size, on-site fuel storage, cooling, sort of how much water does that require, what kinds of effects are there, like mist, which is what LOL's experiencing,

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towers, so large physical objects that you can see, utilities, both in terms of water and power. Those are significant issues and I don't know how that particularly plays for us in terms of power or in water in terms of how we would determine what are like is that

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something that we want to have a handle on or not because I don't know if we can specify a capacity you know we specify sewer capacity yes we do but neither of those other two are within the town's control so I don't that's one question I have I don't know if we can put any kind

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of capacity restraint on that um exterior interior mechanical equipment structure. This is one one thing that was interesting is because there tend to be very few employees at data centers. They the structures themselves tend to have very small and few windows. And so

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that's obviously from an aesthetic point of view that's something that we would want to consider. And then also the this is not an issue but I should identify that the ITG it trip generator they do have a land use code for data centers. They do have a traffic estimate for data centers is very small. So it's basically

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negligible and that makes sense. So for for the l example which is the Markley data center, it's a 14acre parcel. Uh it's light industrial zone and it is surrounded by the Sacred Heart neighborhood. There are 352,000

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square. It's a 352,000 foot data center. So, this is probably uh I think what was Yeah, it is because it's the old Prince Macaroni factory, right? >> Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. I think this is 50% larger than the Cuz how much was

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the warehouse that was >> 240 by? >> Yeah. So, this is like 50% larger the trolley restaurant macaron. >> So, the old Prince restaurant um stuff like that. So, it's right up that street. So for for that data center they

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have 27 diesel backup generators. Uh they have they store 160,000 gallons of diesel fuel on site and they have 16 cooling towers. So the reason they do this is just so that we can get some sense of the ratio of these things to

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the size of the data center. >> Is that a collocation data center? Do you know? >> I don't know. I do know that originally it started out that they were going to be providing sort of like a server service you know if you need some additional computing so and so on but

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then they migrated into the generative AI and that's when it became an issue >> okay >> is when they started >> so it started as a collocation >> I think so and then it >> and is expanding into >> it's expanded because of the I mean obviously it's very lucrative right now to get that sort of >> work yeah >> what are they what are they using for

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their cooling towers >> water I water. >> Yeah. >> So, so a num number of restrictions that and I looked at a number of different um ways in which different different zoning approaches that there are and certainly

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one of the one of the big ones they have is setbacks. So, anywhere between 500 and,000 ft from residential um height limits of course screening those are sort of typical zoning things that we have restrictions potential and types of systems. So we could, for

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example, in Chris Bowman's letter, which I didn't read thoroughly, but she did say that we just say not allow any kind of an openloop system. And so, uh, that's certainly something that we could specify as certain types of systems that are allowed and certain types of systems

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between >> an open loop and a closed loop. uh closed loop at least I think it isn't like I think the open loop is that you're essentially running to the cooling tower and then it's evaporating off and so you're having water leaving the system that way as opposed to closed I don't think you have that those kinds

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of evaporating kinds of things uh and so and apparently there are different technologies so it's not like you know having water cooling towers is the only way that that problem can be solved but I don't know what are the relative costs or the inclinations or

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anything like that So it's that I don't know. Uh but then also noise attenuation and limits then I think we have have some feel for that because of the the um uh car wash where we thought about we thought through that we do have

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environmental um protection standards and so forth. Um and then in terms of approaches there were different approaches. Some were to to have a by right, others by special permit perhaps depending on size

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um or to restricted to areas that can support high utility loads. And then also whether you would go with an existing district, whether you create a new district, some people created a new district, whether you have an overlay on an existing district. So the sort of different approaches to how we might

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actually implement the kinds of restrictions that we want to put on. And I thought Mansfield, this is one that they just uh passed a zoning bylaw on the 5th uh at town meeting. So this is the first town in the state that has passed the Z uh data center bylaw. It's

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my understanding. But the important thing to keep in mind with Mansfield is that they have a water department and they have essentially an utility. So those things are within Mansfield's control and therefore that is something

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that they the basis for their control is on what capacity there where they can support >> right I don't know that we necessarily would do it that way so they base it on megawws >> so they have a three- tier system if you go up to two megawatts 2 megawatts being

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what they sort of consider to be their capacity then two to 10 megawatts and then greater than 10 megawws And I'm not exactly sure why they created tiers two and three because neither of them are allowed. >> So it doesn't sound like that. >> I don't know if they're looking to like

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expand it. I don't know. Anyway, that's the way they did it. That's why >> uh and so then the basically anybody who's seeking a special permit, you have to submit engineering reports and so forth and so on. So there's a process that someone would have to go through to do that.

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So >> for us that don't that doesn't for Chster which doesn't have a municipal electric plant. Um I mean I I don't know that there's any way for us to think about

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the impact of the various sizes on on the I mean at some point >> if there's enough data centers in New England area that's serviced by whatever and national grid then the kilowatt price is going to go up if the capacity

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isn't able to be expanded. So there is there are constraints but they're kind of the free rider kind of >> they're not constraints uh town thread has any control over. >> Right. Exactly. >> Although some might argue that well okay there are going to be impacts to if you

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allow these things are potentially going to be impacts to utility customers right >> because of the infrastructure that's likely going to be shared among all utility customers. >> And so therefore should we restrict it anticipating that that would help them? But that's hard to that's hard to put a

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number on. We need specifics. We need criteria. >> And we would have to talk to town council about that to see if we >> legally can restrict if if it's not a direct impact on our >> utilities. >> What about our water?

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>> Like you like >> it's not town water. >> They're independent water districts. >> Well, yeah. No, no. Okay. Not town water, but independent water districts. We have three. And is that going to run into a problem with enough water for the

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residents? >> Probably. But >> let's say they were already water in this area. >> But the issue is that they're not town utilities. So what Joel is saying is that Mansfield restricted based on their town's ability to provide the

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infrastructure. >> Yeah. If it were sewer related, >> right, >> that would be a different story. But because >> But can't we work with the the water departments? Like, is there a way? >> But we may not have a legal basis for being able to do it. We'd have to check with town council. I

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>> mean, we could be something, >> but what but what we would actually implement has to be something that is within our control. >> And so we could do something simple like we do a lot of things square footage. >> So that would be one. Another one would

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be that we don't necessarily use square footage, but we use the things that are of concern for us like generators, towers, and so forth. And so >> we do all of the above >> or all the above. Yeah. >> Or we just define >> but those are the those are the those are the knobs we can turn >> Yeah. But we don't have power.

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>> We can also look at primary use versus a an accessory use. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I or we can like define it and bring to town meeting two options like what you know with us putting it in certain zoning and giving them a if that

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fails then we have the option of just defining it and putting no across the town. >> I can I throw an entirely different opinion out here? >> I think we should limit the impact not

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the use. There clearly is impact to this thing and it's it's fascinating to watch the development of the idea of the data center. >> Uh it spills a lot of heat. >> Yeah. >> That may be something that we want to

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regulate. >> Like we're >> if we could >> we're trying to get away from heat islands. >> Yeah. Right. So So there may be but but we should what we should be doing is regulating the heat, not regulating the use. I mean, if if if you were to come up with another industrial use that used

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the same amount of power, that had the same number of employees, which is almost none, uh, had the same in traffic impact, which is almost none, but had the same gigantic bill. If you had something that was an entirely different use that had

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the same characteristics, which you very easily could have, I think you could put together uh images of a chemical plant that would look very much like a data center in terms of of its pollution and its and its heat.

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Wouldn't you want to regulate that the same way? So, um, how we how we go about this, I don't know, but I'm I'm hesitant to regulate the use and only the use.

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>> Well, I think it would be very similar to how we're potentially trying to deal with the contractor yard topic, >> right? But that there there there we have a clear uh there's a visual image problem. There's the noise and traffic

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problem. In some ways a contractor yard has >> bigger problems than a data center. I mean >> not necess well >> well not necessarily. Should we should we limit the amount of people into the atmosphere? Maybe we should. It's

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adverse impacts that are more difficult to measure and in some ways therefore >> it's very easy to measure. They know exactly how much heat they're dumping. >> Oh, >> you can put a number on it. >> You look at the power bill coming in

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and I guarantee you all of it's going out as heat. >> But one of the challenges is that zoning is based on the use. So we have to tie >> we have to define something. We have to define the use based on the impacts and I think

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>> well I think I think the use could simply be industrial >> and then we limit >> but I disagree with that because there are plenty of like someone pointed out there are data centers now in Chelmsford >> as part of office buildings >> right >> those are data centers

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>> y >> but they're not the standalone >> they're they're not the big AIdriven giant that we're worried actually worried about secondary use So that I mean I would be inclined to be much more

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liberal with a secondary use >> regulation. I mean if the secondary use spit out the same amount of heat, spit out the same amount of mist and had the same number of noisy uh diesel generators, would we want to limit it less because

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it was a secondary use? No. Anyway, I just I I don't bring it up because there's an answer there, >> but because I think it uh I think maybe just maybe we're we're taking the wrong approach. >> Well, then it would become almost that

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we want to modify the environmental protection standards. >> Yeah. And I I don't know if we can do that. That's a different how our zoning is set up. But I think I think it makes sense to define a data center so that you can say the ones that we have now

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are okay and the ones that are like this are not okay. So that that's what we're essentially trying to do is prevent >> but I think you do that through the tiered mechanism. >> Exactly. Well no >> based on impact. >> Yeah. No, I agree. And I think I think since impact I mean that's the key right

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there. You have to define the impacts >> and and be specific enough on the impact and general enough on the use >> that if something else came along and had exactly the same impact, >> we would regulate it in a similar way,

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>> but it would still be a different use. >> It would be a different use, but it would be the same pain in the neck for the citizens of Chelse and we probably ought to >> regulate it >> similarly. I mean, I don't know, Evan, what I'm just curious what your thoughts are

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because I would think >> to regulate the impacts, you would want to do that in the environmental >> in something like the environmental protection standards >> where you're just establishing some level of standards you're willing to tolerate.

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>> Um, I think the traditional approach is the best approach. traditional definition, use table, >> and then uh and then if you want to go into

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uh regulating the the size or the caps on these accessory infrastructure items, but I would leave it at that. I I wouldn't create specialized environmental standards uh because I think between the use table

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and the caps on the accessory infrastructure, anything, you know, anything over a certain threshold is going to require a special permit which will then allow you to um via the new town meeting amendment would allow you to um delve into the

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environmental standards. >> Well, well, consider that we already do. We have noise regulations. We now have some form of light regulations. >> Uh, and we have sewer regulations. >> We've got the environmental trigger as well. >> And we've got the environmental trigger.

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So, >> I mean, I think what's I think >> I don't I don't want to have a whole lot of these around town, let me tell you. Emily, I'll get >> I think what's interesting is if if um if Somerville I think is contemplating 20,000, >> which to me, not knowing much about this

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use, seems really small, >> um but how, you know, how many accessory infrastructure elements does 20,000 square feet need? Maybe that's what we need to know. But another another approach is if the board says, "Well,

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the setback's 500 or 1,000 ft." uh we could map it and there's probably very few areas in town >> that would allow it. >> So I you know I I think it's like like many uses um particularly where there's

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um significant community uh sentiment towards it, distribution centers and so forth. You need to decide first whether you want it at all. and then take it from there. You know, my final comment on this was um some of the literature

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indicates that uh these facilities target um robust uh utility infrastructure and then local local electric companies. >> We don't have either of those, right? In fact, if you're familiar with 129, many

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of the businesses have been forced to put in generators because the power goes out routinely. >> I've been forced to put in a generator because the power goes out. >> These are items that we we could take time and try to get that research if needed. >> It just may turn out that we're not

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really a uh a destination for the traditional large scale or medium scale type of facilities. And the final comment is I'm I'm very interested on the the existing uses. It sounds like they're a data center room within an existing

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>> Yeah. >> Yeah. So that's not a that's not even an accessory use. It's just a a component of an existing business. Um but I wonder to what extent we have any that are are uh principal uses that maybe

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>> Yeah, >> probably none. >> Probably none. Okay. >> Yeah. That's what I wanted to make sure that we're >> I don't want to generalize data centers too much in our definition and say we're banning them because those server rooms

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can be based on the definition considered data centers. They're tiny and small. >> Um uh but >> marketing themselves as data centers. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> but they they would be considered data

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centers by our definition if it's too overly broad. >> Correct. >> So I want to be careful we're not restricting. >> My fi final comment is on these um this slide here backup generators, cooling

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facilities, uh towers. If you drive around 129, almost every building has these types of exterior infrastructure elements at this point. Um, I only bring that to your attention because if if you choose to to

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cap, there's already a granted they're well buffered from residential properties. Uh, but if you drive around a lot of the buildings, you'll see many of these accessory infrastructure types. Um >> they're not excessive obviously,

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>> but you know they have they have plenty of these uh accessory infrastructures around the site for a variety of different purposes. >> Yeah. One one other small thorn that I'd like to bring up is we're uh we will be making assumptions about the technology.

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>> Yes. >> And >> right, we're chasing >> Yeah. We're already down to 1.4 for nanometer on the, >> you know, on the chips and going down. We never thought we'd get there. Uh, >> it's a moving target. >> It's a, it's very much a moving target

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and, uh, I think it would be not a particularly good idea to burn a particular technology uh, into our zoning bylaws. I have a I have a quick general

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question. So there's no definition right now for a data center that we have, right? Correct. And at the last town meeting, what was the thing that got brought up that they shot down because there was no definition and they didn't want it? Is that what's going to happen with this when it gets brought up that it's going to be

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>> Oh, I think I think people are I I I don't think you'd have trouble passing something that very much limited data centers. I mean, that's the current hot button. Okay. Because I I just on that last meeting when we brought up the thing for definition,

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>> they thought by having the definition it was allowing it in town everywhere when it was only like in a limited area. So >> Oh, was it like boarding house? >> That was the boarding house topic. Yeah. >> Was the breakfast. >> But I think that was a different

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>> situation. I just I think this is a hot topic. I I think it's good to define it. >> Yeah. They're not anti-definition. I don't think >> I think it's I prepared to have two >> one where you think it's okay and one

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prepared to put all nose in all Arizonone because >> well I think it depends on what we decide to do. I I'm just saying from a town meeting perspective like we may all agree that like may define it may agree that certain areas maybe might be worth

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it but >> I'm not sure we're >> I'm not sure we're agreeing that is the case. >> Well, okay. I'm just >> I think we're still exploring. >> I think it's good for us to define it. >> I don't think we're there yet. >> I definitely think it's good for us. I think I think the major thing is that

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this isn't like there's there's a very huge data center monster that's coming to town and we need to make sure it doesn't get here. It's the fact that it's it's a a wide it's a very broadly it's a very broadly defined thing. Some of which we have some of which we may

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not want to discourage and some of we would definitely would not want to have. So I think we do want to be you know careful about how we define it, what kinds of restrictions we place. I think town meeting will understand >> that we're trying to not discourage

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businesses that are here that are not doing any of the things we don't want >> and but it will be clear that the things that will do things we don't want will be discouraged and I think that I think they would understand that. I think they go for that. >> I think it's quite analogous to the warehouse. It is very nice to the warehouse

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>> citizen petition >> and it was very favorably received because people >> didn't want a big warehouse. >> Yeah, I think it's a very similar situation with this. >> But except for were being proactive in this occasion

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>> whereas we had one breathing down our necks. >> Yeah. >> I think where it's just slightly different is in the warehouse typically always has high transportation associated with it. Correct. Yeah. >> Whereas in this case, you could have you could have something where it isn't

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generating the kinds of results you don't like. >> So this so the impact can be less more subtle. >> Yeah. >> But >> there could be a range in the impacts whereas with warehouses the impact was pretty consistent. >> It's not traffic. It's other issues because I mean sitting there and seeing what LOL's going through right now with it, >> it's just something to sort of sit there

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and think about like what if >> how do we want to make sure we handle this? >> Should this want to move over this way? Um, do we want it in like the neighborhood where Lol is currently and that's becoming a problem? >> Yeah. >> All right. So, for next steps,

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>> what are your thoughts for next steps? >> I have a slide for next steps. >> Yeah, he's way ahead of us. >> That's right. Look at that. >> Uh, so >> I saw that. So we're kind of doing the discussing the general approach and then draft some sort of version of those

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different things and then come back with some kind of a I would say a draft propo very drafty kind of proposal as to how we would define it what we would restrict and how that would look. Yeah, I think we should first target >> the elements that Evan was mentioning

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>> taring and first come up with the gradations of what we want to look at and then decide well where if anywhere might the different tiers fit >> and the answer might be nowhere or

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something in between. But but I think >> that's kind of the fir the first question >> to my mind. Have you done any research on the types of cooling that they use for this type of in infrastructure? Because I think I'm going to look into it more. I'm

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curious about it now. You a little bit. I was sitting here reading about it and there's a couple things that I'm curious about because I looked up the open versus the closed and the fact that they can use chemicals, not chemicals. >> So, it's that part is interesting to me because that maybe is something that >> will you do be concerned

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>> open close system 101 for us. >> Report report back. all should work together. >> You know, if if it's a closed system, we shouldn't be worrying about water. We should be worrying about heat >> then heat, right?

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>> I'm not sure about that generator. >> No, I know. I agree. >> How about at the next meeting um between now and the next meeting uh June 10th, we think about how we want to potentially approach different parts of this

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>> um and then we'll have that discussion. um get some structure down and then after that meeting we'll have one or two people go off and start drafting some definitions at least. >> Yeah.

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>> Okay. >> So homework is to do some research on the different aspects of data centers and >> she's already started for us. >> I also found the data center in chunks. >> Yeah.

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>> All right. Anything else on that topic? All right, moving on to old business. >> 210 Boston Road. >> What was this? >> It's at the Little Peach.

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>> This is the restaurant coffee shop. >> You know, the Little Peach where there used to be a liquor store and there's a used to be a train store. >> I don't know what's there now. >> Beach in Westford, too. It's near Chumsford Lumber. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes.

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>> On the way to Russell Mill. >> Okay. >> All right. So, at the last meeting, we talked about different approaches. Uh we talked about uh adding some type of coffee shop definition to uh the restaurants

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um which would be allowed in CA, which is that zone. We also talked about potentially looking at CB light in this area um in place of the CA zone. Um

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so after some discussion, we had thought maybe the the CB light would be a good option. So, what I did is I put together um the slides for what it would look like if we did CB

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light in this area. >> Isn't there affordable housing? >> Yeah, it's on the >> Okay. >> The top one. >> Yeah, the first one. >> Isn't Do you know when you're mapping this, isn't there affordable housing like right there somewhere? I don't know.

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>> I don't think so. >> I don't think so. >> Oh, yeah. The P has um affordable housing, I think. >> The what has affordable? >> Oh, that's the the that's the affordable housing, >> I believe. So, >> yeah, I thought it was town owned

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somewhere back there. I used to know someone who was looking into going in there. >> It is town owned. It's a P. >> I think it's this right here. >> Is it CA? No, it's the P.

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>> If you click on it, it's give you the address. >> 206. >> So, where do we have CA? We don't have C. We only have two areas of CA. >> Three. here. Go to the this one.

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>> Yeah. No, no. I'm looking at all the areas of CA because we change this to CB then we go down to three areas of CA. >> You go to the next one or I'll see you later. >> All right. I'm back on your presentation. >> Okay. I think there are three areas of

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CA we had talked about at the last meeting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um >> makes you kind of wonder what like do we retire CA or >> looking at what CA offers compared to

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some of the other commercial? It's not very different. Um setbacks different. >> I think the setback >> setbacks are different. Yeah. But in terms of uses, >> are the facts more restrictive or less

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restrictive? >> I believe less. >> Yes, I think that's true. >> Less restrictive. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So it provides a little bit less protection.

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Um so if you go to this is just general information on CB light. Um, keep going Evan, keep going. So, the current

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um, we have another situation here where there are parcels that are half CA and half RB um, or partial. So, >> we do that. >> We would clean that up as well. >> Um, >> no one knows. So, in this situation, we

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have uh a couple public areas with the CA for the uh the little plaza to the right or the top. Um the CA underneath the uh white

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label box is, I believe, an auto store, auto something there. Um and then the most of the CAS in the that middle larger area is is Charlesford Lumber.

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>> Um and then a couple other businesses. >> Where is Boston Road on here? Like >> right in the middle. >> Okay. Sorry. >> If you go to the next slide, Evan, >> go ahead. No, you're right. It's >> based on what we talked about. All of

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those CAS would essentially become CB light and then we'd clean up the RB. >> Is is the lumber yard allowed in CB light? >> We don't have it specifically defined. So I believe Evan, we had said it would

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go under general retail if I remember correctly. Um, yeah, it's probably probably retail. >> Although it's it's it's interesting. There are two aspects to a lumber yard

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like that. One is the retail operation, which is the building, and the second is much more akin uh to a uh >> contractor. >> A contractor yard and which they also have up there. >> I know because I've bought plenty of

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plywood. secondary. >> Did did you in your uh presentation here articulate why why you felt reszoning a CB light was

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the best approach? >> No, we had talked about that last meeting. Um >> I grabbed the wrong book so I don't have the book that has CV light in it. >> None of them do. >> None of them do. >> None of them do. So online doesn't have it all. >> We're working on that as we speak.

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>> Oh, this is online. >> Um, but so my question because I can't find the answer anywhere and I can't remember is are there any restaurants allowed in CBite? >> CBite allows restaurants

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>> by special permit. >> Oh, I have remember the mills because the mill wanted something it would allow. >> Like how is it regulated? Is it by number of seats or anything like that? right here. >> Oh, good. >> Uh there's um just restaurant and then

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there's then there's fast food restaurants with drive-thru, without drive-thru, and over 2500 square feet. >> Do we allowed We don't allow drive-thru in CV light. >> No. >> No, I don't think so. >> Can we make another category of restaurant?

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>> We could. >> I think we should do that. It could be like a a bakery or a coffee shop >> coffee shop or uh like I mean like >> just under a certain size or under a certain number >> number of seats or square feet or both.

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>> Well, the if we define it based on the type of restaurant like coffee shop that wouldn't take into account the pizza place that's already in that plaza. So it would have to be based on the size of the

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>> res size and seats. >> So if you do that then you then you don't you just um modify the use table, >> right? >> Yeah. >> The definition use table. >> Yeah. >> Or just a definition with a footnote. >> Yeah. Because as I think about it, the if we introduce CB light there, then we

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also introduce the possibility of the seat over overlay. >> No, you don't have to. >> We don't. >> I thought it was in >> inherent. I don't think so. Yeah, it's I thought >> it is. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, that's what I thought. >> Oh, >> anywhere CB light is a say odd overlay

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could occur, >> right? >> Yeah. >> I don't think we want to do that. >> I mean, it's it's it's currently applied to CA as well. >> Oh, it is. >> Y >> say >> Yeah. All All commercial zoning districts.

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>> Oh, well, didn't realize that. >> I have a question. steal this. Have to take someone's >> take. >> Would if we did buy size, would that take care of that fast casual issue too of not having like a definition for fast

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casual? So everything's by size. >> I mean that was that's something. >> No, >> the um the the fast casual that's embedded in the uh 129 overlay. That's right.

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um has has a uh minimum number of seats and uh I think >> minimum or maximum >> um I'll tell you they have >> so is it the definition only in the over >> yes >> and it doesn't require silverware or it does

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>> does require silverware >> it requires silverware right >> yes it's a uh um minimum of 3500 square feet, minimum 50 interior seats. >> That's Yeah, that's a sizable restaurant. >> Yeah.

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>> So, at least we can make this a smaller size restaurant. >> Make it like a boutique restaurant. >> Yeah. >> Like that encompasses like your pizza places, your >> Anyone have a rough guesstimate on

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square footage? >> Well, how big is like a pizza place? Like they're usually >> like Jony's. I wonder how big Joony's is. >> I can get that information for you for the next meeting. I'll get I'll uh >> like definitely smaller than >> through the board of health. I'll get all of the um seating capacities for the

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restaurants >> and then I'll be able to figure out the sizes >> small seating capacity over at um >> Oh my god. >> Independence where they're putting in the >> No, it's a pizza place. the pizza place that we just approved to put in with the

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Abadell daycare center. >> That's a sizable >> tenant space. Pretty big. >> Coffee shop, ice cream place over by the fields. >> Creary. >> It's not maybe no more than a

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>> No more than a thousand square feet. Good example is Cafe 12. >> I was just going to say that. >> Uh >> Cafe 12 in the center of town, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great place, but the parking is terrible. >> Yeah, but I think that's a small >> Oh, is that the one that's by like the

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area? >> No, >> that's another small >> on this side of the square. >> All right. So, Evan, if you can get us the size, square footage, and seats information, >> like the old mill. Um,

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and then think about what zones we would want to um, allow it in. >> And then that would take care of this and other potential issues. >> So, everyone in agreement with that

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approach as opposed to CBI now that we've looked at it? >> Are you not going to change the zoning in those areas even though they're criss-crossing each other? >> Well, thanks for doing the work. Can we clean that up just a little bit? >> We could still clean it up. >> I think I think it should. >> I think you definitely should clean that up so that you don't have CB or CA into

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an RB and >> make those a little bit neater. >> It sounds like CA is becoming archaic. >> It kind of is, but >> so like why not? You spent more on this. Why not keep on going with the theme we're going? You can still do the other

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thing, but I mean you're cleaning it up. Well, the problem is is that I wouldn't want to if we were going to change this area, I would want to change the entire area and not just one or two properties.

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>> And if we change it, then we run into problems potentially on the contractor yard issue. >> You mean with the conquered lumber? >> Chford lumber. >> Chford lumber. >> You do I mean you've been the last one you did was a sliver. You didn't touch all the properties along that that area.

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You just did a chunk. >> Well, anyone who's there is grandfathered in anyway. >> For the >> Yeah, but if they wanted to, you know, expansion or a lot of things that would still limit them >> retire. >> I don't think Concrete Lumber is a I

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don't think that would be a contractor yard. >> Hey, you go up there. I mean, I'm just But as defined, a contractor is the one who's actually doing the >> doing the work, >> doing the yarding, >> not selling the material. >> Yeah.

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>> They're they're retail wholesale. >> They have some characteristics of outdoor operations, but so does Home Depot, Lowe's, Walmart. >> They all have. >> They got trucks, couple big buildings, and piles of lumber. >> Yeah. Yeah.

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>> That's okay. But if you have trucks, big buildings, and pile of dirt, it's not okay. You know, we should be searching for consistency here. >> Well, I don't know. What are you going to do about the garden stores? >> Yeah, mulch. >> Very good point.

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>> Very good point. >> I feel like you're chasing down zebras. >> I feel like you're going down rabbit holes. >> Well, no. I think I think I'm I'm looking. >> It's a diagnostic thing in medicine. Like you're a zebra is an uncommon

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diagnosis. Some people always jump on the zebra diagnosis. >> Sorry. >> So, do people think we should >> pursue a CV light in this area or >> I think it might make sense. >> I think we should and I think we should

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clean up all the lines. >> Yeah. >> And I think we should change think about how we might change the use table to include small restaurants. All right. >> All of the above. So, >> not all for the fall town meeting though.

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>> I mean, I'm just saying like that's what like >> it is June. >> Well, I think the more immediate issue >> is the CB light. >> Well, no, in this area it's that restaurant. >> Well, we'll solve that with by changing it to CB light. >> No, we change the use table. Okay. So,

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then you saying we should go down table. >> I think it's that's the quickest and the easiest, >> I think. But we've already done the work on this. So, let's do both. >> Put a lot of work on ourselves. >> Chris already did most of the work on this. >> So, all right. So, we'll continue down

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this road for this any for this reasonzoning. Is there any change that people would want to see or is this okay? >> Looks good. Looks good. >> I like it. Yeah. >> And then next meeting we'll also talk

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about the restaurant size. >> Uhu. >> Okay. All right. Anything else on Boston Road? >> All right. Gap analysis. Um, don't want to spend a ton of time on this. Uh, we did get uh Evan had some

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edits, Joel had some edits, I added my edits to Joel's document, sent it all into the board of health and they will incorporate all of the comments. >> When I when I look at that document on here, it has all those little yellow

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boxes that >> Yeah, if you hover over it. >> So, I couldn't get the hovering to work on the online version. So, what I did is I added I printed out a different version that has the comments embedded. >> Um, and that's also attached. Becky

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attached that one as well. >> Yeah, I couldn't get this. >> Yeah, that's the one I printed. >> Click on that cuz I couldn't >> the other one >> that's attached. >> Yeah, see at the same >> that has EB the ver the document that says EB edits. That's Evans version with

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the comments. >> The green one. >> That's not working. No, not the green one. The one above it. >> One above it. >> Both say EV edits. >> Doesn't end with >> Oh, this one. Yeah, the one above it I couldn't get to work. >> But yeah, I couldn't get either one of

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them to work. >> Yeah, I couldn't get it to hover. So, I was able to print it out in a way that printed the comments, too. >> Yeah. >> So, >> yeah. Okay. So, >> those two documents are the same. Just one has comments that are accessible to some people. >> And then the the yellow one is Joel and

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Chris's comments. >> Yeah. What are the red ones in the margin? >> Those are comments. >> Those are those are Evans comments. >> Okay. Well, where are yours and yours and >> the other document >> that we can't get into? I I can >> There are three documents.

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>> There's the the one that Evan is pointing at right now. That is the one that has Joel and my comments in it. >> Oh, >> the green one is the one that I printed with Evan's comments visible. And then on the red on the

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>> unhighlighted one is Evans >> with the yellow comment which some some people can some people can't. >> I wasn't able to on other devices I was on. >> I still don't know where the one is that has everyone's comments. That's >> none of them have. >> So that's just this where they put some

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notes in and stuff. >> Okay. The >> bottom one is just separate the documentary. >> Yeah. Those are general comments. >> Okay. >> Okay. All right. Manage growth strategy. >> No updates.

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>> Well, other than providing >> at this point, we're kind of waiting on uh >> uh on these guys to uh >> you know, come up with first of all a better pitch for uh money.

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>> Yeah. They and they took a lot of input and then also too they suggested a new name um preferred development planning so that it doesn't sound like >> so limiting. I thought that might be better for >> I thought that was not a bad idea actually. Uh but I don't think we're going to hear much from them until

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September October. >> I uh I was there also and I thought it was interesting to hear the discussion. And it sounds like they're looking for a simulation to provide sort of a lot of results. And that simulation is urban sim. And since modeling and simulation

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is something I've done for a long long time, I was going to look into it to see >> because those things can always be very sensitive about the inputs and particularly about what kinds of assumptions you make about the inputs that you give it. So I was interested to see that too because I think there's going to be some interpretation

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that's involved that then well could impact the results of it. So you have to have a good understanding looking at your results what it was that you were assuming when you put into it. So I'll probably look at that too. But it was a very good meeting. I thought there Nimco's doing a great job. >> Yeah. >> I like those guys.

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>> Mr. Chairman, while we're on that subject, could I just talk about >> my work on our future work on the committee? So um as many of you know um I began this week um with Paul's departure retirement serving as um

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acting town manager and um also take also still doing the finance director duties. And so one of the main differences as I kind of guessed with um it serving as town manager is much different than finance director. One of the main differences is a lot of my day

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is um devoted to formal meetings either um for various things um and then also meeting with department heads on various issues. So what I'm trying to say is in a roundabout way is um a lot since a lot of my day now is consumed with other things um I'm going to need to step back

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from the managed growth um task force um and share that with everyone in the board with Evan. Um I enjoyed my time. I think it's a very interesting group. I'm, you know, reluctant to do that. I I think it's a very important um task

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force or committee for the town, but I just feel at this time that I just don't not have the time to devote to it. So, I'll be you know, I could I can >> in the future give provide written notice to you and the clerk. But I just wanted to share that with everybody my reasons for and

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>> thank you. I appreciate your time on the >> and you're likely to remain connected with it anyway. your with your different role. >> Yes. >> So >> just a different way. >> So John did mention this to me before the meeting. Um so one of the things I

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was thinking about is instead of trying to appoint a new chair um since we have co-chairs, would you be willing to absolutely >> take it over? >> Well, I'm about Friday is my last day of work.

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>> Oh, congratulations. all of a sudden I have more time than I used to have. So, yes, I'll be more than happy. >> Okay. All right. Um, so that will keep some consistency there. Um, and then I think I would like to see a second

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planning board member on the the managed growth strategy task force um as well. uh not necessarily to co-chair like I said, but um to have an additional uh planning board member on there to to have the two like we had discussed.

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>> I'll put that on the next agenda for a formal vote. >> Yep. >> When does it meet? >> Uh it's a bit ad hot Thursdays typically. >> Uh but again, I don't think we're going to see another meeting until September, October.

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>> I think there'll be one in the summer. You think we're going to have one summer meeting? >> The committee has some homework to do. >> Yeah, that's true. >> Engage with the uh the water and sewer departments. >> Um but then it'll be back in September, October. >> Okay. Well,

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sometime next week, I'll wander into your office and and pick up details. >> I'll put that on the next agenda for the Okay. >> for the vote. >> Okay. So, between now and then, think about whether or not you'd be willing to serve on that task force. And um if you

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are willing, let me and Evan know prior to the meeting. Okay. Thank you. Anything else on managed growth? All right. Now we get into the

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continuing through the other zoning uh articles. Um the I'm not going to continue going through the change tracking. That's just for everyone's awareness of what we're working on to keep track of it.

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>> Um, I'll continue to keep versioning that document as we go through. Um, I'm going to skip down to the riverneck. Um, just as a reminder, we will be discussing that again on June 10th. Um, Anita, are you

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>> I'm making edits. I was working on it today. I'll send you I'll send I may send it to you um just to look at to make sure I've captured all the changes. >> Okay. Uh, so send it to me as soon as you can and then we'll get it out to people ahead of time and then um we Evan has

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posted the links on the uh town website for and the the uh neighbor um information has gone out already. So people are starting to talk. I've gotten some phone calls with some people that are

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>> a not happy and b maybe a bit confused. >> Um so I think to the extent that we're able to keep the conversation and the information flowing that will be >> Yes. Yep. And that will be the the

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first meeting with the informal neighborhood meeting on June 10th. Um, but Evan has added uh all of that information to the uh town website. All right. Um,

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contractor yard updates. So, uh, you had the version two to look at since the last meeting. Version three, what I did is I worked with Evan to try and break it apart. um the way it was initially

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structured at the beginning, it was going to essentially fit into a new zoning chapter and we didn't necessarily want to do that. >> Wanted to try and put it into the different pieces. >> So, what I did is I um broke it out a

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little bit more uh into this version three. I added people's comments that they've been giving me um to this document. made changes through the document um as people had um suggested.

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Uh all of the changes have been tracked so we can keep track of things. Um, and what I'm hoping to do tonight is quickly just go through the structure of how it might be set up and then uh also talk through the the comments that people

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have in the uh in the margin as well. Um, all right. So, the first section would be the definition. We would delete the old uh two definitions and then replace it with these definitions.

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we would have a general use definition and then we would have three subuse definitions. Um the first is the essentially the the three different tiers. >> Um

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each one of them has uh descriptions about the uh what type heavy what weight vehicles might be allowed potential numbers. It describes the storage of

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equipment and materials. Um the first one also describes the multi-tenant condominium facilities that we see a lot of these contractors in. >> Um and then each tier also gives uh example

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examples as well. Um, Mike, you had a comment in here about the enclosure of materials. So, your comment was about that that enclosure would provide some mitigation

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to impact. >> 100% agree with that. Um, but one of the things we wanted to avoid in the way that this is tiered >> is using the enclosure to bring down to a different tier.

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>> So, for example, >> I see what you mean. >> Yeah. So, we didn't want a tier three contractor yard >> to turn himself into a tier two by putting up a building. >> Exactly. And then putting everything into the building. >> Yeah. So that was the intent here that

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you can reduce you can mitigate impacts with the building but the building itself won't decrease your tier. >> Okay. >> You would still be considered the tier that you should be. >> Yeah. >> Um >> based based on the equipment. >> Yeah. Based on all of these things and

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just putting it inside would >> reduce your tier. >> That's fair enough. This might be a stupid request, but um I would love I'm having difficulty visualizing these various tiers. Like do

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we have a poster child for like what anything that is in our that we could go look at and think about like this is kind of typical tier one. We have potential vehicle descriptions based on the classes.

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>> That's about it. >> What if you throw an AI and ask it to create a visual representation of each? >> Yeah, there's so many GPT. >> I mean, I could try and see what it spits out, but there's so many variables in these.

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>> I'm just having a hard time. >> I'll try and see. The pity of it is to most normal humans looking at a contractor yard, the aesthetic aspects of how neatly the piles are

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piled is probably going to make more more difference than how big the piles are. >> You know, it's just the way people are. >> Well, that's why we're trying to focus more on >> Yeah. >> less about the yard and more about the

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of trucks that are coming in and loading up their trucks. >> Yeah. Are they nicely painted or are they rusty? >> Giant and rumbling the whole street. >> Yeah. That's >> right. And the way >> that's what will be discussed. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And the way you've defined it,

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there's a big difference between vans and pickups in my mind or excavators, you know, large paving machines. >> Yeah. So, the first the first subuse wouldn't have any of that additional equipment. no heavy commercial vehicles

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and no heavy equipment. >> Um, and we define those down below as well. >> Um, it's essentially the the inside office condominiums for contractors >> um

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>> like the beehive idea. >> Yeah. Yep. >> And other service operations. What's that? >> What would Chelms for Lumber be? >> Retail. >> Retail. >> It's retail. But what if what if they were about that size and not a retail?

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>> What if they split the business and the back half was the contractor yard and the front half was a retail and they happen not to belong to the >> but again it's le it's not about the most of this is not about the storage of materials. There's one piece of that.

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>> I think she's asking because she's trying to visualize what these look like. So, what would that scale of that type of property be? >> Well, that'd be hard because in both tier two and three, you have outdoor materials being stored. But the

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difference is is that tier three we would have the heavy landscaping excavation type vehicles which you don't have in a chford lumber. Tier two,

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you have one or two pieces. So maybe a Chsford lumber would have a forklift or two. >> Yeah, that's what actually. >> So they might be more of a tier two. Yeah, I think that's a good differentiation. So, two pieces of heavy equipment is your tier two

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>> and more than that is basically tier three. >> Yeah. >> Which is interesting though because how does that get regulated for future use? Like when they come here and they bring you their plan and they're saying they have two parking spaces for pieces of heavy equipment, is it something that

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then would come back to somebody alerts them, oh, they have like four and then now their tier's changed? Well, parking is also addressed down further. >> Yeah, >> there are specific parking requirements for each tier. >> Um, >> but how do you regulate the heavy

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equipment number? >> The the only system we've got at this point is >> the building. >> Somebody as somebody complains to the building storage or use of Yeah. Somebody would have to. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I'm just asking. >> Yep.

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>> Which mic I'm yelling into. >> Shake them all. Put both So the tier 2 um talks through the commercial vehicles. Um I do agree with you Evan on that comment

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that we need to clarify the heavy commercial vehicles a little bit more. >> Um it's not 100% consistent, so we'll have to figure that out. um and re refine that a little bit.

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>> So the only one that has on-site fuel storage is three. >> Yeah. >> A lot of small amounts or something. >> And do we have to have on-site fuel storage? >> That kind of big use probably would want it. I mean, if they if they got 10 big

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diesels, they'll want a 300-gallon tank. Yeah. >> I mean, it's a whole lot easier than driving down to the local gas station every day with your entire parade of heavy equipment and filling them up.

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>> Amazon does it with all their vehicles. >> Yeah, it's true. >> They go to gas stations. >> Um, and then we talk about defining commercial vehicles, heavy commercial vehicles, and heavy equipment. And Mike, your comment about minimum vehicle weight for the heavy equipment is a good

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one. Um, I don't have enough expertise in those. >> I don't either, but somebody must. >> I feel like, didn't we have the pictures that we had last year? >> Yeah, we had pictures. >> They had weights, I think. >> Yeah, we have one that had weights >> or heavy equipment. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Excavators, bulldozers. Okay, I'll see

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if we can dig that out. Mike, are the are the agricultural uh vehicles uh registered? >> Uh they may or may not be. Uh often they aren't. Mine aren't. >> If they are registered, do they have a commercial plate or some

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>> uh they're likely to have a farm plate. >> Farm plate. >> I was driving behind Caroline Par. >> She's got a farm plate. >> Yeah. >> Maybe the uh commercial vehicle definition needs to say uh commercially registered.

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Uh that takes care of some of them. >> No, that would exclude egg. >> It would exclude egg, but it might also exclude uh stuff that goes onto a trailer. >> I mean, you can use the same kind of

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equipment in a as you use uh for just general landscaping. You know, a uh a front end loader with a backhoe on the back. And whether it's registered or not is strictly a matter of whether you plan to drive it on the street.

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>> What's your concern with your comment? >> The neighbor likely to try to characterize a 40 horsepower tractor with a front end loader as an excavator. >> Yeah. >> If it's being operated by a an agricultural use, >> right? >> Then they're not in the contracting business. They're an egg use.

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>> Yeah. It is conceivable that could one one could register a uh an agricultural tractor with commercial plates. I I don't think it's done very much. >> Agreed. But the use wouldn't be be classified as an a use under our zone.

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>> Yeah. If you classified as an egg use and and maybe that clears the problem out. >> I think you're concerned that someone tries to mix >> uh because they're agrieved that they're trying to convince >> Yeah. They say, "My my neighbor's got a tractor with a front end loader on it."

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>> Right. >> But if they're not, >> this must be a contract. >> I think we're we're saying is yes. Yes. Yes. Your neighbor does, but he's an agricultural use >> or a residential use >> or residential use. >> Not contracting under our definitions. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah, that would kind of >> But those are where the tricky corners

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are. >> Yeah. But one of the things is that it's >> it's >> Yeah. But it's really based on the use. So there, if it's an agricultural or residential use, you're not ob you're

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obviously not a contractor. >> What would Ch uh what would uh Henry Parley's use be? >> He's got a farm. >> Agriculture. >> It's agriculture, but I'm >> What's the question? >> But he moves probably moves other things

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with his with his big Massie Ferguson. agricult but he's an agricult he's a farmer >> he's a farmer >> I think he yeah I I would agree but but again >> for example he was sharing a whole lot of his space with uh u with the fellows

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that were in here >> earlier on and was that agricultural I don't know I just there's fuzz there is what I'm trying to say not that I'm trying to resolve the question but

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you're not always going to get a clear division between agricultural and and commercial. >> Excuse me. >> Yeah, you're allowed. >> Beardra has declared we've talked

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enough. >> All right. >> I wasn't being subtle. I actually just yawned. >> The next uh >> piece of this is the uh use table. Um so for

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the first tier it would be accessory use and residential. Um and then for the uh CB light commercial districts and then IIA would be allowed. For the moderate, it would

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be no for residential, no for CB light, >> special permit, and then um yes for IIA. And heavy would only be allowed in IIA. And this is kind of aligned with how we're aiming for the CB light to be that

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buffer. >> Um >> pretty good >> parking. Uh the parking is really about because this is not a customer-based um business. It's really about the

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employees and for number one uh and for tiers two and three it's about enough spaces for the equipment. >> I like that. >> And the fleet. Mhm. >> Um and then parking space dimensions

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also related to the size and shape of the equipment and vehicles and not for passenger vehicles. Um other things we may want to think about

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is in here a definition of a fleet. M >> um we I did some research based on some other um work that the DPW has done on prior projects. Uh US DOT

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they define their internal fleet as 15 or more vehicles. Um but it's not used for their regulations. Um some fleet software considers a fleet two or more vehicles. Some insurance

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companies consider fleet five or more vehicles. Um if you look at towns and what you see in patterns um accessory or residential use allows typically one commercial vehicle uh for

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the home use. If you're seeing two or three that's kind of borderline contractor. uh four to six vehicles is more considered a contractor yard and fleet and then uh seven plus most a lot of

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places consider industrial >> I think like three or more is not residential >> that's for sure yeah that's typical of what a lot of the zoning that I found >> like if Mighty Maid decided to buy the

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house next door and park their mighty made car little sedans. I wouldn't like that. >> Yeah. So, the accessory use would be more like a single vehicle. Um the tier one would probably be two to six. Um and then the tiers two

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and three may be something like seven plus. >> Maybe two to five, >> something like that. >> What What are we referring to right now? >> The number of vehicles in a fleet. Did you look up the FMSCA regul like fleet regation? >> Yeah. So I I think for

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the the reason that a fleet initially came up is that it's tied to the land use with a higher pollutant. >> Yeah. >> Through storm water. >> Okay. >> For purposes of just contractor regulation, I don't think we need to

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regulate and define fleet. I think you've kind of done that. >> Yeah. Um but at some point for all all other uses tied to storm water we may want to define. Yeah, I agree. But that's why I wanted to start talking about it now to

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keep it aligned with this >> because if we define here because we start talking about numbers of vehicles here >> and I want to make sure that what we do end up doing here is kind of aligned with the direction we would go for fleet

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so that they're not out of whack. >> Yeah. >> Well, I'll just I'll just uh bring up my comment five. >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> That's why I wanted to bring this one up. setting setting aside, you know, a definition of fleet related to storm water,

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we do have more than a handful of uh well-known wellestablished contractor type businesses that have more than 10 commercial vehicles otherwise they would comply with tier

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one. Um, so I think you just need to be cognizant of that kind of situation. Is that truly your intent to

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you know lump or treat um 10 or more commercial vehicles in and of itself as a tier 2 >> even though you may not have any exterior operations. >> So maybe make that planning board. >> I don't know. I just I just bring it I

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just you know I just bring it to your attention. Um >> where do we what zones are those in? >> The one I'm referring to is on Steman Street um >> north of the highway. That's IA

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currently. IA >> plumbing. um you know, if you leave it as is, it becomes pre-existing non-conforming. But even if even if those did become a

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tier two, because part of the issue, part of the reason why there's that piece in tier 2 is because of potential traffic impacts and parking impacts. Um,

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if you have 10 vehicles, you likely have 10 or more employees that also need parking. Understood. But how is that? Just talking shop here. How is that any different than a a multi-tenented tier one?

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Gav >> behind uh Walmart is a multi-tenented condo building essentially with maybe 10 or 20 tier ones >> compared to one large

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um one large business that has a larger fleet >> but no exterior operations. >> So how do you think we should handle that? maybe take it under advisement till the next morning. >> Yeah, I would just I would just think

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about it. Maybe drive when you're driving around town kind of just, you know, give a give a look see. >> But Evan, one of the things in here is that in multi-tenant or contractor condominium >> individually, >> they're classified individually, >> right? What I'm saying is Gav,

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all of those uh individual uh tenant spaces would likely be tier ones, >> right? But collectively, to your point, collectively they generate more traffic. >> You mean like where the physical therapy is and stuff?

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>> Uh at the end of GNE be >> uh behind the self- storage facility. >> Yeah. >> Right. But Evan, what I'm saying is that >> in that case >> that >> if you look at the use table and where

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it's located, that type of gene a scenario would likely not be allowed in or it would be allowed in in most of our areas. And

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The traffic impact would be >> would be analyzed based on >> the building and the parking requirements. >> No, all I'm saying is that if you had if you take GNAV and you have uh 10 individual tier ones

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>> and you compared that with this >> one large company that took all of Gav, >> I don't know what that is. I've never seen that. The amount of trucks would likely be roughly the same. The impacts, the operation, the scope and scale would likely be the same as currently drafted.

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>> It's it's allowing the the individual condos >> to be tier one by right, >> but if one company bought all of them, >> they have they have more than 10 commercial vehicles. So, by definition,

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by default, they automatically are not are not a tier one. They're not a buy right. But yet the impacts collectively in totality are likely the same. You have, you know, 10 10 individual contractor condos or one large business

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that takes them all. And I see your point and I'm not sure I would fix it the way that you're suggesting. >> Yeah. I would go the other way and say that a condo development

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in total would be considered a tier two. >> Does it say that? >> Not yet. >> Okay. >> But I think I get what your point is is that the way it's written, yes, >> both of those are the same. I think the intent is that individually each of

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those bays in the condo are tier ones, but collectively it would be considered a tier two. >> So if it were a new construction, it'd be a tier two >> based on the collective impact. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> The ones that are already up and running is that is what I was trying to

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interpret. But if that business went out on its own >> into a separate um standalone business, it would it would still be a tier one. So if it's inside a condo unit

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>> or external, it would still be a tier one, >> but the condo development in total would be a tier two >> upon initial construction. >> Yeah. Once the planning board approves it, then then then

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the building commissioner is looking at it as an individual tenants >> as they come and go. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Well, I mean the way it handles that is that they make it as a function

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of the size, the the square footage. >> Yeah. So, do we want to do something similar? Because that would solve the problem, too. Because essentially what you're saying is

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you have so many vehicles per certain size, then if you're if you buy them all, will you have all that space? So, you you're allowed more. So, that would be the equivalent of it. That's how it

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addresses that >> for for the traffic impact. >> Yeah, I have to give those questions because you could have a >> you could have a I think those average about 2500 square feet. They usually has a have a mezzanine and so forth, but there's not there's not a clear

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uh line between the square footage and number of trucks >> because you could Right. >> Right. Right. I mean, it has an estimate, but they sort of have it all smooshed together. >> Yeah. >> All right. Keep we'll keep giving it some.

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>> All right. >> All right. Um, so between now and next meeting, take a look at these and then we'll have uh further refinements. If you have uh further additions or suggestions,

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let me know and I will >> to this to version three. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> To version three and then I will uh update it. Um so the sooner you can give me comments and updates, the sooner I can get the next version out for us to

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look at for the next meeting. >> All right. >> Thank you. It's a lot of work. It's a ton of work. All right. Uh, I think that's it for zoning >> meeting minutes.

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>> Yes. Meeting minutes. Uh, May 13th. Has everyone ready? >> Yes. >> Uh, I will take a motion. >> I would move that we approve the meeting minutes of May 13th. >> Motion by Mike.

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>> Second. Second by John. All in favor? >> I. >> Unanimous. All right. Next meeting date is June 10th. Um, we have Lady Slipper. We have

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more of the zoning discussions and then we have the riverneck um >> Yeah. >> discussion. >> With the neighborhood. >> With the neighbors. Yeah. Not the public hearing, just an informal >> discussion with them. >> Yeah. >> What time do you want to start that meeting?

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>> I I think I the property owner of butter notification said 700 p.m. >> real question is what time do you want to do um >> lady slipper? >> Lady slipper. >> Start them at 6:30.

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>> Yeah, if we can start at 6:30, get them done. Start. >> I think that's going to finish in half. Well, I guess we don't have to do the other thing right at 7. >> We can do it 7:30. That way it's only >> Yeah, we can do it after 7:30. >> Yeah. >> 6:30 start time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. 6:30 start. >> It's okay if we get to it later than the

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time on the thing. >> Time to all get here. >> That is if they're ready by >> June 10th. They may be they may ask for continu. >> Very well. >> Y >> and everyone will be here June 10th. >> And what about June 24th? Everyone will be here. >> Yep. >> June 24th.

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I believe so. >> I will be here. >> I have another meeting at 6, but it's virtual. I could probably bow out of it by 7. >> Um, >> which date? >> The 24th. >> Okay. >> So, I wouldn't want to start earlier

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than 7. >> Yeah, June 24th. We'll go we'll do 7 o'clock. >> Okay. >> I might dial in. >> Okay. Okay. So 6:30 on June 10th, 7 o'clock on June 24th. Uh June 10th, we will start

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with Lady Slipper at 6:30, the riverneck discussion at 7, and then we'll continue through uh other zoning. After that, um I will take a motion. >> Move to adjurnn. >> Motion by Deedra, second by Anita. All

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in favor? I. Thank you everyone. Y