WEBVTT

METADATA
Video-Count: 1
Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=8_7Cs5y45gk

NOTE
MEETING SECTIONS:

Part 1 (Video ID: 8_7Cs5y45gk):
- 00:01:14: Meeting Call to Order, Roster Updates, Introductions
- 00:03:26: Approval of Meeting Minutes and Project Invoices
- 00:07:46: MSBA PSR Submission Update, Approval Expected June 24th
- 00:16:25: Sustainability Review: Energy Efficiency, Renewables Discussion
- 00:25:13: Questions on Lead Certification, Reimbursement Rates Discussion
- 00:30:23: Review of Construction Delivery Method Options
- 00:58:59: Committee Questions & Discussion: Risk, Contingency, and Process
- 01:28:08: Questions on Project Scale: MSBA Projects and Selections
- 01:32:50: Schedule for Town Meeting Approval, Community Outreach
- 01:47:04: Community Outreach Discussion, School Committee Involvement
- 01:53:48: Final Remarks and Meeting Adjournment


Part: 1

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time being 602. We're a little bit late tonight. Uh but the time being 602, we'll call this meeting to order. We are being uh we are in a live meeting and we're being recorded for future viewing by the uh general public on uh YouTube

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and Cha Tele media. And with that um I will uh turn it right over to Hamdi to u for the first item which is the roster update. We've had some changes to the composition of the committee and we'll go over those now. >> Uh thank you Pat. Uh so

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uh John Susa will be uh the local local chief executive officer um starting next Monday and uh Patricia Oas uh will be the representative of the select board.

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So these are the update and uh Paul is uh retiring. So thank you po Paul for for your services. So it was great uh to work with you. Um so I will I already

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updated the roster and I will send this to the MSBA because it's an requirement. Um >> okay is the update >> and I think this is this is your last public meeting right? >> That's it. >> Wow. >> So so we we do a roster update. Um, for

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those at home, the reason we do this is we have to actually submit the roster of this committee to the mass school building authority for approval uh when we make changes like this. So, those are the changes with Paul leaving and John taking over as interim manager and Pat

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taking over as select board and I resigned from the select board. So, um, >> not from the committee. >> Not from the committee. Nope. Nope. So, um, so for those at home, that's why we do this because we need approval for almost everything we do here on this

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committee, uh, with Mass School Building Authority. So, um, I just like to explain these things as we go along so people understand why we're doing, um, certain things. So, um, with that, uh, we'll move to the next item on the agenda, which is the approval of meeting

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minutes. And, um, everybody should have gotten a copy of the meeting minutes yesterday. Um, all the committee members should have anyway. And uh, was there anybody that didn't receive that? So, we're good. Um, is there any comments,

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changes, corrections necessary for the meeting minutes that anybody saw? Seeing none, I'd entertain a motion to approve the meeting minutes from April 16th, 2026. >> So, moved. >> Second. >> Okay. I have a motion and a second. Uh,

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any further discussion? Seeing none, all in favor I >> and we'd have one abstension. Okay. So Pat Walers will abstain and um we have a a perman uh positive

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vote. So thank you for that. Okay. And now we will move to the approval of monthly project invoices. So we uh shared the updated budget and monthly invoices uh with the committee

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two days ago. Uh I believe it was Tuesday evening. Um there is not much update with the project budget. The only update is with the expanded column column E. Um the budget remain remain

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the same like $1.8 $8 million and expanded amount is so far is $896,000. Uh and unspent is uh $823,000. Uh we have uh three invoices for this month. One is for left field uh for OPM

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services. Uh the other one is from AI3 for design services and the third one is from clean earth. Um so this is actually regarding the soil removal from the site which was uh done during the April

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school vacation week. Um I was expecting a little bit more but um the quantity was very minimal. So we we removed uh less than um 20 cubic yard uh

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soil and it was successfully disposed to this facility and the cost is 1,400. Um, and the total amount of the invoices for this month is um 97,24

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$252. >> Okay. Thank you. Um, and I just want to remind everybody as you speak, if you could just pull your microphone closer to you, um, so we can make sure that we're being picked up um, um, by chumps of Teledia. So, um, so we've had a budget review. Um,

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any, uh, questions, comments, discussion related to Hamd's comments? Seeing none, I would entertain a motion to approve this month's, uh, invoices. >> I have a motion and >> second.

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>> Second from Jim. Okay. Any further discussion on the project invoice? Seeing none, all in favor? I opposed. >> That's unanimous. Thank you. >> And if I could just comment, I wanted to um thank uh Christine Clancy and the DPW

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with um all of the work that was done during April Vacation leading up to it as well. Uh Hamdi was the nucleus um on as far as from left field, but I I saw all the correspondence happening. So just thank you for um you know the DPW's

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participation and um mitigating this and making it work >> the help and it went very well. >> Yeah. >> And and this cost uh would be much higher uh if we hire the contractor. So this is so minimal because DPW provided

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um all the operator, excavator and other uh labor for this work. Thank you Christie. >> Excellent. That's what we do here in town. if there's a way to get things done less expensive, we find a way to do it. And so, thank you DPW for doing that for us. Um because every penny counts

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towards this budget. So, anyway, okay. Um so, we're all set there. And the next item on the agenda is the MSBA PSR submission update. >> Uh >> did you want me to take this or you or >> I was planning to do it? Yeah.

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So um as an update from where we last saw you a month ago, we have officially submitted the PSR to the MSBA on April 29th and we have had the subsequent facilities assessment subcommittee uh review with them on May 13th and

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>> which if I may uh say all seem to go very well. Um so thank you to everybody involved. Uh it uh we we got a lot of good comments um during that meeting. So, um, thank you to everybody for a very thorough and, uh, and formal presentation to them, uh, cuz they were

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I think they were impressed. So, anyway, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. >> Great. Thank you so much. Yeah, we'll get into that a little bit more detail further on, but uh, great comment. Thank you so much. Um, where we are in the process now is we are awaiting the MSBA board approval at um, on June 24th and

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that will officially move us into schematic design. Uh this schedule shows a potential path through the end of project completion and we'll get into that in a little bit more detail in the construction delivery method later on

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looking into schematic design. Um what that phase includes what we call our step three is going into the project in further detail. The first portion of that is finalizing the design program. Some of that will involve the programming meetings that we have

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upcoming kicking off with the staff and educators um within the next uh few weeks and furthering on throughout the rest of schematic design into the early fall and into design development. We'll continue our site evaluations including

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additional conversations about security, emergency access, and environmental and remediation analysis. We'll do further development in the exterior design including um massing development as well as uh starting to look at the exterior

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materials um all of those considering the sustainable design considerations and we'll go further into the development of the schematic design documents. This includes in this next package having some architectural and site and civil drawings um room data

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sheets as well as some early code analysis review and the start of our specification development. From there we also have an independent cost estimate. So we would have a thirdparty cost estimate that we'll reconcile with our design cost estimate

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and this helps further align the project within that budget scope. So as we continue to further develop, we know that we're meeting that alignment. Some of the notable dates to consider throughout this process um schematic design is our next SBC meeting will be

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on June 10th and that will be a partner meeting with the community forum and we are you know suggesting tenative dates uh for July, August and September allowing this committee to still meet uh receive updates and help inform the design as it progresses to that October

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submission date. Following that would be the MSBA board meeting for the approval of the schematic design which would lead towards the early 2027 vote um and the hopeful movement into design development.

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Our anticipated action items that are scheduled look ahead for the next few months. Uh we're quickly closing up May which is hard to believe. Um as I mentioned we had earlier our FAS meeting as well as our meeting tonight. Um, and we will start at the end of the month

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our programming meetings leading into early June. Um, I've touched on the June 10th meetings uh for the SBC and the community forum. Um, and then that last full week of June, we are targeting one of those dates to have our lead kickoff meeting. We'll get into this a little

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bit later when we look at the lead scorecard, but there is a very specific prescribed meeting that we need to have with um different prescribed members of every entity to get together, review the scorecard. Um and it's like a necessity of the prerequisites of going through

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the lead process. Um the sooner we can get that uh meeting in the books and start the lead scorecard, the sooner we can have that inform the design as it moves forward. Um and then June 24th is that MSBA board meeting

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for June, end of June and July. Uh we are targeting an opportunity to bring in our uh mechanical design experts to review some of the building system options. Uh we'll hit on that a little bit today in our sustainability discussion, but this will help inform

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what those options are for your systems and what makes the most sense to move forward with with this project. And um as I mentioned a tentative meeting uh for the SBC in July. And some of the um items we might cover in that would be

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further uh discussion about the Massave and how those system selections um will align with the Massave path one, an introduction into proprietary items and how that impacts the project and the specifications and just um further design updates to keep that moving along

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in schematic design. So we did mention that we have the PSR submission and FAS update. Um so as part of the PSR um process, we have a meeting with the facilities assessment subcommittee. Um as the chairman

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mentioned, it was a very successful meeting, very positive feedback. A lot of that is um based on the contribution and the very comprehensive nature of the educational program by the district that does help lead to a nice alignment with

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the floor plans and all that is contributions to this committee and the district leadership. Um there are a few comments um as far as some considerations for further advancement in the floor plans and adjacencies. I'll touch on them a little bit when we look at the floor plans on the upcoming

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slides. Um, and as I mentioned, um, the FAS did actually approve us. Um, they will let the board know that we they support approval of the project, um, on June 24th. >> Excellent. >> So, some of the comments on the first

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floor plan, um, they really appreciated the clear nature of the floor plan, the easy way finding, um, the clear separation between public and private. Um some of their comments were to consider the overall length of the

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building and how long um a student in a wheelchair or anybody making that uh travel from one end to the other and how we could potentially uh reduce that travel time by maybe looking at opportunities to compress the floor plan a little bit.

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Um some of the comments for the second floor. Um we're relooking at sort of the art configuration and where the art display is bringing opportunities for the art display to either be further dispersed or at least on a more prime artery of the building so it gets a

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little bit more uh visibility and not a destination. Um and also considering how does art tie into the stage and any production set um values that it might bring. So is there opportunity if they are doing set production um would they

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need maybe a little bit of a satellite use on the first floor? Um the only really comment or consideration to take into account on the third floor are the floor openings that we show along that main spine. Um, while we saw them as opportunities to

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bring natural light further into that circulation spine, they did ask us to consider if that's pulling students away from the glass and further um taking them away from that connection to the exterior. So maybe consider sort of how um that relationship would work. And

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we'll further refine some of this in our um upcoming evolutions of the floor plans. Next item on the agenda is sustainability review. >> I just drove ahead on you last time. I'm sorry. >> Um, as I start this uh we just want to

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mention that this isformational for tonight. We are not looking for any type of decisions um at this point. Um those will be forthcoming. So everything we share with you uh is really just for consideration. And just to add one more thing, next week we are also meeting with uh couple

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of the members of the sustainability committee. So uh we will also get some feedback from them >> from our town. >> Yep. >> Okay. >> So just a little uh history, AI3 has been working on uh sustainable projects

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um for many years. Even before working on chips and leads projects, we have incorporated sustainable uh elements into our projects. Um our portfolio shows a depth of this work as well as some of our um most of our recent

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projects being net zero or net zero ready. Some of the components we're looking at uh on the site um thinking of sustainability outside of just an efficiently run building are restoring some of the natural features, the

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wetlands, the um brook that runs through it as well as renewable site opportunities, optimal solar orientation and the best way that we can mitigate some of the development by uh reducing heat island effect and thoughtful full

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storm water management. So here's the lead scorecard that I referenced before. Uh this is a draft version of it taking into um some assumptions and best practices on schools of uh this size um with lead 4.

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Um so we have actually enrolled the project in lead version 4. Um so that is all set. We've um done that prior to the sundown date so we aren't forced into lead version five. Um the best way to maximize the potential additional

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incentives is one you get 3% by being a specialized opt-in stretch code. Um and based on what we are projecting for very achievable lead credits um moving forward to a path towards getting that

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additional 1% and bringing the project above the minimum standards requirements for the MSBA with a lead goal. So we take a step back. Massachusetts in relation to uh energy efficiency across the United States actually comes in

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second. We're ranked second only behind California and Chelmsford plays a big part in that. Um being an adopter of the specialized opt-in code and as well as being a green community and with your 2025 um climate action plan, you are clearly

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demonstrating you are a leader in sustainable and energy efficiency. So what is how do we define an energy efficient building? We look at the EUI or the energy use intensity of a building which is basically the consumption and how much energy the

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building uses uh which is taking that consumption divided by the area and time and that's how you get a an EUI. The lower the EUI the more efficient your building runs. We are now targeting 22 or under and that is actually in

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alignment with mass save path one. If you have a really low EUI, you have a very efficient building. Getting to net zero is more achievable because you get to net zero by balancing your energy consumption with how much renewable energy your building produces. So if you

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use 22 and you produce 22, you've balanced out and you're a net zero building. So reducing energy use can have benefits beyond just closing the gap into being a net zero uh building. It actually has um additional benefits environmentally,

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reducing your carbon footprint, eliminating use of fossil fuels. It can have educational benefits from creating living classrooms and a learning lab and teaching students about environmental stewardship, health, improved health of not just the occupants of the building,

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but your surrounding community um and your abutters as well as costs. Uh, a lower EUI and a high efficient building can lower your operating and maintenance costs. In order to get a net zero building, you need to have renewables. You need to be

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producing your own energy to offset what you're consuming. The most logical way in or what's available to us in the Northeast is either solar or wind. Uh solar has um really gained a lot of efficiency and the technology of those

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solar panels has gone leaps and bounds even just within the last 20 years. Uh making your ability to produce as much or more power with less panels possible. Um and so

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that renewable energy in time with having an efficient building, you have multiple paths for um producing that energy or what your systems um can actually be. You can use an air source, a ground source or dual system. Um so having those systems in place helps make

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an efficient low energy building and then you bring in your renewables to create that net zero. There are also additional assistant programs for added savings and some of those are through utility companies. Um, as I mentioned before, Massave is

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available through National Grid, which is what services uh, Chumsford. Um, path one will lead you to the maximum incentives that you can receive. Uh these rates have been adjusted recently and we would note that the ground source

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heat pump rate is still the potential to fluctuate. Um additionally they base that rate based on what is available through potential IAS through the federal and um they still see that as the potential of availability and that then impacts how much they're uh willing

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to set forth. They also set a cap on the maximum of sentence per project at 3 million per project. Um the team has already had their kickoff call with Massave and we are starting the process of talking with them early and often to

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maximize um the design strategies and ensure that we bring in the the most incentives possible to the project. Um moving forward with path one um does lock the building into an all electric building. um that is pretty much in alignment with the specialized opt-in

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code though. So it was pretty much the path um that chro was looking at from the beginning. An additional um assistance program would be through the department of environmental resources and this is um the smart program for solar. So if the

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um project decides to move forward and try to achieve the net zero or at least have some solar panels on there, this is an additional incentive program where we would work with the department of environmental resources and the smart program to identify with the solar design consultant how we could best

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leverage the design in order to meet um their adders and their requirements to add additional incentives into the project. So all of this leads to a decision-making tree. I told you you don't have to make a decision today, but this is sort of the path forward from

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where we are. Um because of the massive path one and the specialized optin stretch code, you are already looking at you jump a few steps ahead on this path where you have now elected we are doing an all-electric building. The first decision there is um bringing in our

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mechanical and deciding what HVAC system you want to move forward with. Um once you know that you then decide are we going to be net zero ready or net zero? Um if net zero ready then are we doing solar is the solar owned? Is it a PPA?

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Um and those are sort of your steps along that path and those are going to be the next decisions that are up. Um our recommendation is for the SBC to vote on those energy commitments. So what the the next steps on that decision

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tree in the July meeting and I will hand it over to David to go through the construction delivery method. >> You don't mind if I just ask a couple of quick questions. Um so as we start this pro process

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um will we be provided any kind of u monetary projections uh energy uses projections and and so on um such that we can really you know gain an understanding of what we're buying into. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. that we'll be a part of um in

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the end of June, early July when we bring in our mechanical G&B will join us as well as AL our energy consultant to go through those sort of matrices so that you understand sort of what are the upfront costs, what are the payback periods and look at side by side a full

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matrix of what those different systems are and how they com compare and what makes the most sense for Chomps. >> Okay, perfect. Um and then my other question is just uh again for the for the for the home audience we talk about

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uh in terms of percentages if we go lead certified um so that those percentages get added to our reimbursement rate. Is that correct? >> I if I could clarify >> please please elaborate.

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Uh so the cost projections that I provided John earlier uh I uh incorporated three additional reimbursement points by us going lead the maximum is four um but

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as a little bit of for now as an insurance factor I assumed three um but depending on you know the journey and where we end up um that will be adjusted in the future if it's additional three points which I feel very confident or

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it's going to be an additional four points. >> Okay. >> So that that that feeds into the equation of the MSBA reimbursement versus a district share. >> Correct. And and the reason I asked that question, I kind of knew the answer to it, but I asked the question

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>> for no other purpose than to just for the viewing audience at home to understand that by making decisions like this, this committee >> enhances the reimbursement from the state and lessens our cost to a certain degree. Um, and without bullet spending

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too much time on this, what did we go in with for a uh reimbursement rate then? um when we when we did the projection to John. >> Uh don't hold me to this. >> No, no, no. And I understand this is not this is not um etched in stone by any means because we also need to be

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evaluated for our programs. >> Um but I'm I'm starting the process to educate. >> Do you remember? >> Uh so >> I mean I could find it would take me a minute or two, but I could find it. Just roughly though, I mean like so I know like we'll get some points for

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maintenance, you know, good maintenance of our schools and things like that. So I was just wondering if you remember off the top of your head. It's not that important. >> We started with a base rate of around 52. I'm I'm hearing 52 >> 52 and then we added 1.5 for the maintenance and then we added another

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three for lead, but that three percentage might be four. >> Might be four. >> Okay. Excellent. I just wanted to kind of start that >> get that out and um and um >> just start educating the the the home audience as to >> why we may make certain decisions along

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the way because it it it provides benefit to us um from a cost standpoint and an energy standpoint and so on. >> But but I I do want to clarify that the you know the 52 is the base and then we we added 1.5 for maintenance which it could be 1.4 could be 1.6 six, we added

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the additional 3% for lead, which could be four, but the net is not going to be, you know, 55 or 57%. The net, and I'd have to look at the analysis. I think it ended up being like 35 38 39. Yeah. So,

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and what you're trying to say then is the net is based on items that are reimburseable by the state and because there will be many items that we do here that won't be reimbursable by the state. >> Yeah, I would the best way to say it is

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for now if our base rate is 52% is we will get 52% reimbursement on all eligible costs. >> Yes, >> not all costs are eligible and even the costs that are eligible They have limits. They have a cap.

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So, >> yep. >> Yeah. So, I just >> way to say it and I I I don't mean to diverge and catch or anything like that, but I um but I feel it's important, you know, at this point in time to really start educating people as to um why we

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may make one decision or another and because there's usually impacts like this. So, that's the only reason I just kind of veered off for a little bit. So, I hope you don't mind my >> Nope. No, I think I think it's important to know that, you know, we we don't want um people thinking, "Oh, we're, you know, the state's paying for half the project." >> Correct.

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>> It's not. And and you know, the the um reimbursement equation that's being applied to this project is being applied to every MSBA project across the Commonwealth equally. So, it's it's not just this project. >> Right. Thank you. Thank you. All right.

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So our next uh item on the agenda is uh construction delivery method review which is CM at risk construction manager at risk versus design bid and then build. >> All right. Well, um first Pat, I want to

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introduce uh Jim Rogers. He's here at the table. May look familiar to some of you. Um maybe not to all, but uh yeah, he's our fearless leader, commander-in-chief at left field. So >> pleasure to be here tonight as part of this discussion. >> Welcome. >> Thank you.

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>> And uh I also I want to just stop for a moment to you know qualify that this presentation you're going to hear um it's uh some of it's factual. Um the data some of it is subjective. Um as you hear me present you will probably

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understand that's factual versus that's David's opinion. Uh so it's subjective. Um and while we have the same slide format um uh you know this slide this piece of the deck was prepared by left

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field. So um you know AI3 will comment with you know their comments may not be 100% in alignment. So I just wanted to have a kind of a qualifying piece of the slide. Uh I'm also going to ask if I can go through the whole deck. Um it it's fairly lengthy. I have it scripted

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because if it's not scripted um and if I uh just organically talk, I'll keep talking and talking and we'll be here all night. Um but I'll ask if you have any questions if you could just write down the slide number and I will gladly come back to the slide. Um I'm going to

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go through some of the slides fairly quickly and but you'll you'll see why. All right. So before we begin, I want to be clear that we're not looking for um we're not looking to reach a final decision tonight. Uh the goal this evening is to

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introduce uh the framework of two different construction delivery methodologies. Uh the traditional design bid build under chapter 149 and the construction manager at risk under chapter 149A. Uh I will move through uh some slides fairly quickly. so that we

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can keep the discussion within um to be determined maybe 30 minutes. Uh the intent is to give everyone time over the next few weeks to review the deck, speak to colleagues as an example. Matt's not here. Um uh who may have used the CMR

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process or not. Uh come back next month with questions, feedback, and opinions so we can obtain a uh clear uh decision. So on the history of chapter 149 versus 149A um this slide that we have up gives

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a brief history of the public construction procurement in the Commonwealth. Chapter 149 is the traditional public bidding framework while chapter 149A was created to allow the CM at risk delivery option for qualifying building projects. This would

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be one of them um while still preserving the public bidding uh process. Uh as you can see the original unique and I say that um kindly the unique mass public bidding framework was developed in the

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30s and the 50s and then in 1980 uh the ward commission issued a report that recommended reform. Took a little while. 24 years later, the reform came and here we are 21 years since the reform was uh implemented or

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allowed with an alternative approach that took effect. Um this slide the mass inspector general uh role oversight report and data. Um so for the CMR process the inspector

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general plays an important upfront oversight role. The IG reviews whether the owner is properly authorized and prepared to use the CMR uh method. Uh but the IG does not replace public bidding. Uh the process still includes

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procurement procedures uh public advertising and documented evaluation procedures. Recently the IG launched a great interactive dashboard that you'll see shortly. Um and um the link to the lower right um is that dashboard, you

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know, for anyone interested. Um I highly recommend exploring it. Um I discovered it last week and um I think they recently probably within the last couple of months implemented it. So as I stated in the previous slide, the inspector general maintains this

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dashboard. It tracks public procurement uh CMR procurement projects across the Commonwealth. Um it's useful because it shows that the alternative CM R delivery method um is somewhat becoming commonplace in Massachusetts u

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particularly for larger and more complex public projects. Uh what I have shown here is just a screenshot. There's hundreds of projects. Uh the dashboard is also able to be sorted with um different categories and to the far

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lower right is a simple chart of two AI3 and left field projects that we've done in the past. Uh one is completed and one is in progress. I can't speak intelligently to either of them because I was not involved in them. But um if you do have any questions about those

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two projects at the conclusion, I'd ask um speak to Troy or Jim because they were both involved in the Dery Fall River project um from a hands-on approach from what I understand. So, >> and if I may, we're doing uh four additional projects in Rhode Island. Oh,

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>> and if I may, uh AI3 and Left Field are doing four additional CM at risk projects in Rhode Island. >> So, it's six total. Um so this is the interactive dashboard that you'll see. Um this is again just a

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screenshot. Um it's uh I I think it's pretty impressive. Um you can click around and you know if you if you hover over Tingsboro you'll see that two came up. Um I was surprised because um I thought there was only one but the the

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other one is obviously the great alol uh technical high school which we were not involved in and you know the Tinsboro school district was somewhat quasi involved but um that just was a surprise. I thought one would come up but they have two because it's located in Tinsboro. Um

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and then um this slide shows the additional procurement steps required under the CMR process if chosen. Uh before issuing the RFQ and the RFP, the owner must first receive approval from the inspector general. Uh to date, I've never been denied approval on any CMR

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project that I've submitted or Hamdi has submitted. Uh Leftfield as a company has submitted many applications outside of the ones that Hamdi and I have been involved in. Uh and in fact um you know if you utilize the IG dashboard you'll see that the first CMR project approved

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by the IG back in either 0405 I think it was the beginning of '05 was Salem High School and uh that was submitted by me many many moons ago. Uh the design bid build kind of

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explained um this is the traditional public construction delivery method under this approach. The design is completed first. The project is publicly bid and the lowest responsible and eligible bidder is awarded the contract. It's familiar, straightforward, works

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well when the scope is clear, documents are complete, and the project risk profile is manageable. However, there's one important distinction I'd like to speak to um which we will cover in more detail uh on a later slide, but it's

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that the general contract or pre-qualification process serves largely as a threshold step. Uh once contractors meet the minimum pre-qualification standard that the Commonwealth dictates, uh they are eligible to submit a bid. So

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then they go into a pool. Within that pool, some contractors may have scored very highly and other contractors may have just met the required threshold. Once the project is bid, the award is

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driven by the lowest responsible and eligible bid or bidder. So the practical concern here is that the community could be awarding one of the largest construction contracts it may ever undertake from a value standpoint to a contractor who met the minimum threshold

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but may not have been the strongest overall contractor within that pre-qualified pool of contractors. That does not mean the design bid process is a bad method. It just simply highlights one of the key procurement

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differentiators between design bid build versus CMR. CMR explained the CMR process brings the construction manager into the process earlier during design. The CM provides pre-construction input, helps with

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estimating, constructability, scheduling, logistics, and ultimately delivers the project through a guaranteed maximum price or GMP. On the flip side, compared to the design bid build process, this procurement process involves the owner with a

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two-step process. Pre-qualifications first, followed by interviews, and then a selection process based on technical qualifications and price. CM at risk and design bid build advantages. Both methods have real

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advantages. Construction manager at risk is better suited for large complex phased or schedule sensitive projects. Design bid build is simpler, familiar to most awarding entities or authorities and can be effective when the project is

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well defined and does not require early contractor input. Slide 10. Um, both methods also have trade-offs. Uh, the construction manager requires more upfront procurement,

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administration, and owner involvement. Design bid build is simpler but not really flexible in my opinion once the design is complete and bids have been received. Uh, file trade contractor and

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subcontractor award. So one important distinction between the two delivery methods is how subcontractors are handled. Um subcontractors are any is a contractor subcontractor that is not

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part of the file trade contractors and there's a slide that I'll probably um stand up and kind of graphically show the difference. So under both design bid build and the construction manager at risk delivery method the file trades and

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there's 18 of them are still publicly bid and the lowest responsible file trade bidder is awarded the trade scope. So the CMR does not eliminate the public bidding process but the major file trade

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uh for the major file trade categories. The difference is with the non-filed trades, the subcontractor scopes under the CMR process, the owner and project team have greater visibility and input into the non-filed trade contractor

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selection process. Those awards are made under the CM umbrella, but the owner has a seat at the table and can pro provide input before those scopes are awarded and the actual award takes place. Under the design, bid build process, the owner

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does not have that same level of input into the non-filed subcontractor selection. There's no input. Once the general contractor is awarded the project, the non-filed trades are just they're selected by the general contractor. It's under their umbrella.

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So for me, one of the advantages with the CMR process is that it gives the owner more involvement and visibility into the broader subcontractor pool where the design bid build places more of that decision making solely on the

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general contractor file trade contractor and subcontractor selection. So this is I'm going to just step step up for a minute. If you don't mind, I'll walk over to this one. Um, so you'll see that the file trades

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here, these are the 18, not that we're going to have all 18, but this represents about 60% of the total scope with the non-file scopes making up the balance of about 40%. So as an example for demolition,

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abatement, concrete, structural steel, all of these sub subcontractors, these are considered file trade contractors. Subcontractors is a list that would be put together where the owner could say not working

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with him, not working with him. These are okay. Um and uh you you you have a say at the table. Just think of it that way. Okay. So, no delivery method eliminates risk.

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Unforeseen conditions, incomplete documents, poor subcontractor performance, occupied site logistics, RFIs, change orders, bid protests, they all can happen no matter what method you use. The question is which method gives

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the owner better tools to manage those risks. It's of my opinion that the CMR process can help mitigate some of those risks. This is where the CM can add value. It allows earlier review of logistics, constructability, sequencing, bid

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packaging, uh analysis of existing conditions and subcontractor interest. In other words, some issues can be identified before the project is fully bid and under construction. The CMR process is most often considered for projects with higher complexity,

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tight schedules, occupied sites, early procurement needs, complex logistics, large bid packages, or significant unknown conditions. These are the types of factors that should be considered when deciding whether to use the construction manager delivery auction or

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not. The pre-construction services, they're not free. The CM is paid to participate during design and provide estimating, constructibility reviews, logistics planning, schedule input, and costsaving suggestions.

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The question is whether the is whether the added early investment provides enough value for the project. Again, it is my opinion that the CM process while it has an increase in cost does bring value to the project and I also say not

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only value but I'd have to um certain certainties as well. the construction manager process or the construction manager can offer schedule advantages though early uh through early release packages but it is important to

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be clear early release packages is an option. Uh it's not a guarantee. Um the design bid build process provides stronger bid day cost certainty once the design is complete. But if the bids are high, the owner is reacting after the

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design is already finished. While the CMR process if early procurement is utilized uh and the results uh and it results in a financial surprise there is the ability to pivot with the remaining portions of the design

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cost and accounting. The construction manager will provide a more openbook accounting. The ownes, the CM fee, general conditions, general requirements, contingencies, allowances, holds, and all other cost components.

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The design, bid, build process may appear lower upfront, but the general contractor's internal contingency and profit structure is less transparent. And as an example with within the industry, there's a term called a an S

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so a statement of values. And um I'll just say for like an earthwork or site work contract reward. The SOV could be listed as $5 million. It doesn't mean that that is the value between the

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general contractor and the site work contractor. Could be more, could be less. If it's less, the general contractor has a a contingency built in. Uh, and that can happen for all of the all of the subcontractor awards outside

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of the file bid. The file bid awards. Um, I mean, those are very transparent. So, um, I'm not saying that's bad. It's just the nature of looking at two different types of S so here's just a graphic um from the

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previous slide. This slide shows that the CM gives the owner more visibility into the pieces that make up the GMP under the design bid build approach. The file trade bids are are visible, very transparent, but the other pricing components are often embedded into the

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general contractor's lump sum and they may not be 100% transparent in the sov. Um change orders and RFIs, um they're going to be RFIs, there's going to be change orders under either delivery method. Um

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that does not go away. uh with this construction manager process, the GMP may be able to provide flexibility to absorb reasonably in inferred scope or unknowns or even um requests from the owner under the design bid build

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process. Gaps or um areas of the scope that are not clear in the documents are often resolved through change orders. Additional factors. The construction manager uh process requires the IG approval. It's typically used for

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larger, more complex phased or renovation projects. The design bid build or DBB DBB is still very appropriate for clear straightforward projects where the roles are well defined and the schedule and logistics

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are less complex. So in summary, the bottom line is that both methods preserve public bidding for the major file trade categories. The key difference is how the builder is selected, when the builder becomes involved, and how non-filed scopes,

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coordination, and cost transparency is managed. So for me, this is probably one of the most important slides. Um it highlights the fundamental difference between the two delivery methods. Under the design bid build process, the general

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contractor is pre-qual is a pre there's a pre-qualification process is largely a threshold gate. That gate is 70 as a score. Contractors are reviewed and scored, but once they meet the minimum passing standard of 70, they are

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eligible to bid. This means that pre-qualified pool may include firms that scored very high somewhere in the 90s along with firms that maybe barely passed and they either got a 70 71 or low7s. Once the general contractor is

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deemed uh contractors are deemed eligible, the award is driven by the lowest responsible and eligible bid. So in practical terms, the town could be awarding again one of their largest projects from a dollar value standpoint.

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um uh to the lowest bidder in the pool who may have barely passed the threshold in the pre-qualification process. Uh the CMR process gives the owner a much more meaningful selection process. The award is not based on price alone. It considers the construction manager's

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qualifications, project team, technical approach, logistics plan, pre-construction value, schedule strategy and cost control approach. That is the major advantage with the CMR. The owner is not simply accepting the lowest eligible general contractor

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or bidder. Uh once a pass fail threshold is met, the owner is selecting the firm it believes is best positioned to manage the project, protect the budget, manage risk and work collaboratively with the design team and owner from design through construction.

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does not mean the design bid build is inappropriate. But for a project of this size and this is my opinion, complexity and importance, the CMR method provides the owner with a greater discretion, better visibility into the project team and a stronger basis for selecting the right

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construction partner. So the cost premium the CMR method will I guarantee entail a higher upfront cost than the design bid build approach because the CM is involved earlier and requires and it just generally requires

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more coordination scope coverage or provides more coordination scope coverage gap identification allowances holds and contingency. It's of my opinion that the added management uh of this adds value. Um but you know the

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cost also needs to be understood. So the premium calculation. So first let me state that this slide is subjective uh in regard to the percentage increase. As I said the CM approach will always result in an upfront premium right out

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of the gate. Um but how much that can be debated. Um, from an assessment standpoint, I have assumed the CM fee at 2% and the CM contingency at 2.5% resulting in an approximate four 4.5%

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premium based on the construction value used for the A2.2 auction. However, if a portion of the CM contingency is not utilized, it's returned to the owner and the effective premium can be lower.

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This slide presents two real project examples at the end of the day in which not all CM contingency was utilized. In both examples, a significant portion remained unspent and was returned to the owner. That's an important distinction from a traditional lump sum bid which in

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which any internal contractor contingency that may be in the S so but not transparent is just not returned. Um and I can say that these two projects I was you know personally involved in um the Grten

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Florence Roach School and the Brown Elementary School uh a considerable amount of contingency CM contingency use was actually um actually funded owner requests that could have been easily a

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change order. Um so I wanted to um provide a broader MSBA reference point. Um we looked at 150 MSBA projects available from the website in their database. Uh of the 150 projects

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reviewed roughly 57 went CMR versus 43 as design bid build. Uh however for larger projects I set the threshold at equal or to or greater than a thousand students. Uh setting this threshold is is subjective. Uh given that the

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enrollment range uh you can see from all of the projects we looked at you know goes from 60 to 3500. Um Jim I assume the 3500 is a Brockton project. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Okay. Um so during the recent uh

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MSBA FAS meeting that we we talked about uh one of the board members actually mentioned this is a big project. It's large. Um but she also uh she also said or or praised AI3 with the ability to take such a large floor plate project

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and break it down making it feel not so large. Um so kudos. Um that said um I do feel that my threshold set point of a thousand students is somewhat accurate. Um so then looking at the um projects

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that are considered large a thousand or more um there's about 40 of them and of the 40 you'll see that 78% of them were selected to go the CMR delivery method versus 22 um selected to go design bid

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build. Again, it does not dictate dictate the answer for Parker. Uh, but I wanted to provide some context of what other MSBA pier school projects have done. So, this is a schedule slide exactly

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from the FAS meeting. Um, and this is a conventional design bid build. So we have design development 6090 100 trade bid general contractor bid award 29 months of construction

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um and the intent would be to do a December midyear move um and prior to the December midyear move we'd have to work backwards we'd have FF& and tech deployment um and so forth so um I mean depending

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on depending on who you get this could be achievable. Um, you know, but but you're you're you know, this project you're you're moving. Uh, this is the same process, design, bid, build, but if

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there's a schedule challenge, um, it would be well, we would, you know, continue along with construction and do FFN and tech deployment at the appropriate time. And this could be an April move.

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And then this is an approach where if the decision is to go construction manager at risk uh in with speaking with AI3 initially um the thought would be doing an early award as part of the 90%

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um and that would be for a site superructure uh site mobilization site enabling earthwork u foundation steel erection slab on deck slab on grade I call kind of

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superructure in the industry. Um, and you know, you I still put the same 29month duration. Um, but you know, you're able to start it a little bit earlier. Um, you know, some projects

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could be start some projects we've done it at 60. Uh, but in speaking with AI3 initially, we agreed to let's just keep it at 90. So, um, and then you can see that, you know, we still have the FFN and tech deployment and then this would

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still be a December midyear move. And, uh, that's it. So, I don't know if I stayed within 30 minutes, but I apologize that probably long and boring. Um, so I'll take um take any questions that you may have. I have a few

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questions, but I'll defer to the committee first and see if there's anybody that has questions, comments. >> All right, seeing none, I'm Go ahead. Go ahead. Kristen, >> one question this one in the presentation typically for higher risk

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projects. Do we think this project is a higher risk project, which I know we still haven't gotten into it, but I guess would we put oursel in that category of being higher risk? maybe schedule or I just don't know if >> I I think there's different gradations of higher risk. Like one person's higher

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risk may not be someone else's higher risk. Um you know, personally, I don't think it's extremely high risk. Um you know, it's not not really, you know, it's an occupied site, but it's not an it's not a occupied building where you're doing

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renovation and and so forth. Um, so, so that's just my initial thought, but I'll defer to others on the team. >> No, I I uh I think it's an excellent question, right? That's one of the big things that differentiates the need to go design build versus CMR. We still think given that this is a project

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that's going to be over 200 million. Uh, well, the risk may be assessed or not. We think it's a large enough project and maybe one of the largest projects that the town undertakes that, you know, that still may move the needle towards that. But I but that is an excellent question and maybe the operative question.

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>> My my my risk is it's um it's not necessarily building or or the the physical structure and the site risk. It's the risk of you don't quite know who you're going to get, you know, because you're you're

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you're getting the low bid from a pool. And again that pool um I think has um varying talent. Um so it's that kind of risk. >> Yeah.

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>> Yes. To clarify that there is a pre-qualification process. So you can't have someone that's never done this before. So the people coming in have done it at other locations. >> Yes, that's correct. But to that to that point, even though they may be pre-qualified,

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we've had some we've because I've been involved for almost 30 years in all of our construction projects, we've had some pretty >> not so nice general contractors over the years where we've literally um

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our last MSBA project, for instance, we had a general contractor on board and Um they were out and out thieves. Um, you know, we f we we ended up coming out on top, but um they easily

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could have cost the town millions of dollars if there wasn't um proper overview and oversight. And and a and a general for instance of this when we redid the high school, um one of the things was we had uh fiberlined duck

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work throughout the whole high school. We wanted to remove that because it was causing pollution in our air and so on. Um, this particular general contractor along with a contractor out of Connecticut cut holes in all of our duck work, sent their robot down 10 ft and

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then stopped and went and couple hundred feet down the duck work line and did another 10 feet and never did the whole project. And it was that particular project was over $800,000 and it was just because Gary

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Percedi and myself went there at 8:00 one night and said let's look down these openings and we saw it and but that let so that was the initial oh boy we got problems and then we started really digging and it was we found a lot of

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things not just that project the town halls project. We had some thievery going on. We had I'm not going to get into everything, but to that point, we it is a good idea to be able to pick and choose who we

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want to work with and who has the better record, I guess, or better um qualifications and things like that. So, um, just having done it for so much, there's so much of this that goes on and I have more questions to ask that kind

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of can jump around that, but I'm going to I'll defer and uh, >> two quick ones. Uh, if you're done, Christine, u, I'll I'll pass it to Jay. >> Um, on the CM at risk, um, no, the, um,

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>> did build? >> No, no, the other one. CM at risk, I guess. risk. >> Um, you there was a obviously a premium and you talked about the premium for the CM and then there was also like a CM at risk contingency, >> correct? >> Is that a a traditional design bid build? Is that like the owner's

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contingency or does the CM at risk have their own contingency on top of what you would normally have as a owner's contingency on a project? that is the uh CM contingency, but the use of that CM contingency

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um the owner has the ability to um um opine on, we'll say. Uh and and the the owner has a control of it as well. So, it's it's outside of the owner's contingency, I'll call it. >> You still carry two contingencies,

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>> correct? Correct. >> Are the contingencies um slightly different? Do they offset each other as a percentage at all? I I typically um carry 5% owners contingency for uh all hard cost or

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construction. Um the CM depending on the quality of the documents um certain risk factors, >> right? >> The their CM contingency sometimes can

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vary from 2% to 2.5 um to to three. It it depends. Um if there's certain scopes of work that have already been awarded, um they sometimes look at it as well there's less risk because that's already been awarded.

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It's under control where you know we could be out of a certain ground improvement business or whatever it might be. So it it varies but um for the for this assessment I feel comfortable with 2.5. >> Okay. Um there's a last one for you. Um

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on the CM at risk, both the premium and I guess their contingency, um if we were to go that route, is that extra premium also reimbursed by the MSBA? Is that included in the total project cost? And is that an eligible expense?

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>> So I hope this doesn't get too complicated. Uh any any use of CM contingency is just categorically ineligible. Now what I what we do is that if there's an event that occurs

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um the MSBA as part of their policy um will participate in change order work up to 1% of the construction value. >> Mhm. So when um if there's um miss scope

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for something um you I mean um uh designers are not perfect. I mean nothing's perfect. >> I know. But if there if if there's if there's an event and Hamdi and I will say that

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event is eligible, >> we sometimes will just make it a change order because you're going to get reimburseed for it. Um so uh there are some projects out if you do your own due diligence you will see you you may talk to some people

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saying oh we went CMR and there was not one change order this >> they just decided to fund all change orders using CM contingency. I look at it differently as if something is eligible >> right

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>> take that vehicle. So does that. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. >> Any other questions or comments? Okay. Um so if we did CMR delivery um we'd be starting at the 90%

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um uh document phase. When would we start the process to hire that uh construction manager? So um >> and how long would the process take? And >> so um hypothetically next month if the

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decision is to go CMR, Hamdi and I will immediately um put together the um inspector general's application. Um that can take anywhere from 2 to 3 months to go through that process. Um you know, I'm confident we're going to be

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approved. Um, we will also start the RFQ and the RFP process. And, um, my recommendation would be to time it in line with, um, the schedule that you're going to see shortly that Hamdi and, uh, Mr. Cohen worked on as far as the timing

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of when, um, this would go for local approval. Um, but roughly speaking, probably the first week of February, um, we would schedule interviews. So, we would um do the step one

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pre-qualification process of the CM firms um but not conduct the interview process until the project is real. >> Okay. >> So, okay. Yeah. >> Um,

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>> so this is something that we'll be we would legitimately start sometime over the next few months and then we would repeatedly revisit it until the time that it um negotiations. >> It's surprising, but you need quite the runway. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's because it's it's very IG

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approval and and then it's a two-step process and you know, again, if if the decision is to go um you know, we'll map it out. Um, so, >> okay. Um, I'm just going to jump around a little bit here, but slide seven and eight

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dealt with, you know, the, um, CMR delivery versus the, um, design bid build. Um, I I I just want to say that because I have familiarity with both processes. Typically

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in the world of design, bid, build, um it's in my opinion much more adversarial >> between general contractor, architects, OPMS mostly because, you know, a general

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contractor sees an opening to say, I'm going to go pick apart these drawings and I'm going to go after, you know, find where all the errors are. I'm not going to say a word, right? I'm gonna put my bid in, but I don't have to put that. I know this has to be done, but I'm not going to put it in my price because it's not on the drawing. And

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then we end up in a big battle and and it becomes adversarial between all the team players. So, um I just wanted to, you know, make that comment myself that, um just because I know that to be the case and I know you may not want to speak in those terms, but I will.

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>> Can I expand on that for a moment? >> Yes, please. >> That's okay. So that's an excellent point and it's kind of set up to be adversarial with a design bid build. >> Um but the difference the key difference one of the key differences between a design bid build and a CM at risk

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>> is with the design bit build and you just set it you bought a set of documents and it's either on the documents or it's not. And if it's not in the documents it allows for a change order with the general contractor. Right. >> Correct. With the see them at risk set of documents, you've actually bought a

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project, not a set of documents. You've bought a project. Anything that's inferred, you own under a see him at risk. And that's why he has that contingency is because he has to own the entire project, not just a set of documents.

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So, if you know Troy's team only put three wheels on the car and the documents, guess what? The CM still owns owns the fourth wheel. he'll he'll he'll fund that fourth wheel using his contingency. But what's nice is you bought a complete project, not just a

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set of documents. And that's what sets up more of a teamwork approach, you know, as you talked about Pat, as opposed to the to the um the confrontational approach with the design vid build, >> right? And in many cases, the GM the guaranteed maximum price, and you'll

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you'll you'll find with me, I say everything out so that people at home understand. Very good. Um but within that process, the guaranteed maximum price provided by the construction manager is typically done before the documents are even completed. So >> exactly

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>> um but he's he's involved in that process. So anything reasonably inferred as you say, >> he's going to he's going to own. So if he sees that, you know, there's a fence required for the playground and it doesn't come all the way back to the

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building to you know um um you know really uh solidify that secured area for students etc. He's going to know that well I I know I have to bring that vent way in. So um so that's one of the real advantages. >> Could I add one more point?

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>> Sure please. >> That's right. The other key aspect of going CM at risk is it allows us to bring the contractor on a year early, right? >> And back to cost, we put our toes in the water at the schematic design estimate,

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find out where we are, and if we find we're trending over at that point, we have a time and ability in the person at the table who's helping us build that and design it to draw that project back. Right. >> We then have another design estimate at DD. We haven't gone out um to for a true

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bid yet. We're managing the design of the documents. We've got a new set of documents. We can price it. If we find we're trending over, we can work with the the players at the table with with the town, move that project back in line. And then again, a construction document. So, there's an iterative

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process where we have experts at the table that we can help manage the scope and the budget. With the design bid build, we're going to have 100% documents when we go out, but we're not going to know what that price is until after that last set of documents. And

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and so we're not putting our toes in the water. We really don't know where we are till that final step. And we have seen situations, not with us, but where the town or city has gotten to the point where they went out with a GC, realized they were well over budget, had

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to put the project on hold and and kind of start over. So, it allows for a collaborative process with experts at the table at different design points to make sure we're where we need to be. So, that's just another um aspect of of that

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role. >> Thank you. And I and I want to get that kind of information out so people can better understand why certain things are are advantageous or not. Um my next question I think it was slide nine but um

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on the CMR delivery method um is there any provisions for liquidated damages? Um and I only asked that just because we're going to be scheduled driven. Um time's going to be of the essence like everything is in in

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our world. Um so is liquidated damages um >> yes >> is that negotiated up front? >> Um I um as part of the RFQ and RFP process by by statute by Mass General

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law you have to provide a um uh a standard contract that you're going to use that you know we we have we have it I mean we've been using it for 15 years now >> um and and we have uh amended it. Is that the AIA2 part or is that a state?

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>> No, it it is it is a um uh No, it's not an it's um I'd say it's kind of a old DAM now. >> Okay. >> Dave Sen homegrown contract. >> Okay. >> That we've modified over the years. Uh I

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mean every every project you do you I mean laws change and then you you learn something new and you incorporate it. So, you know, my contract that I've used 15 years ago was or my contract I've used, you know, down the street for Tingsboro is different than what I used for Salem High School,

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>> right? >> Um, but to answer your question, yes, you can include liquidated damages. Um, >> not that we ever want to do that because that just puts you back in the adversarial game, but >> we've done it both ways. Y Okay. And um

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I don't want to say I'm an expert with with LDS, but um you know with a school project, it's not the same as you're opening up a retail store. >> Correct. >> Uh we're like, "Oh, yeah, you're one day late." Okay. But because you know, a

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school can only move in the summer or midyear moves. It's like if you miss a date, you're waiting three months to the next midyear move or or summer. Um, so the LDS uh I put in are um typically substantial. They're not, you know,

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5,000 $5,000 a day. >> However, um I I do know that if you have an exorbitant amount of LDS as part of a contract, um I'm told that you you you have to prove you've incurred. >> That's correct. That's right.

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>> Yeah. You know, so but yes, I always include LDS in the contract. Okay. question. >> No, the dates it is strictly reviewed in the court. >> Right. Right. Um, next item I have is it's it's more of a comment, but um,

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under the design, bid build scenario, and this is another advantage disadvantage type of thing, but I think under under the design bid build, you were talking about a contract, a general contractor can go and put $5 million in the excavator line

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item with the with with just the subcontractor bids. We don't know what's going on within his bids, what he's carried for profit, what he's carrying for contingencies, what he's carrying, you know, all through that. And it gives them the ability to play some numbers

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games to a certain degree. And by numbers games, I mean front-end loading the contract. And by front end loading the contract, I mean putting all your money and profit in the first first trades up front, such as excavation and that type of thing where you're allowing

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the contractor to somewhat get ahead of you dollar-wise, which is never a good idea. um somewhat we I mean we um regardless of the method chosen um uh an S so has

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to be submitted and um you know the project team um the entire team has to approve the S so >> right >> and and you know we will ensure that um no one's ahead or gets ahead but you are correct with the example I made with

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with earth work or site work um you know a a uh design bid build uh general contractor to S so the file trade bids will be 100% transparent correct I mean they're publicly opened and like that's the number >> the same on both

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>> it's the same on both >> right >> um but for all of the other um subcontractors you're correct I mean just because the sov says $5 million we can't ask the general contractor for their contract with the sitework

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contract contractor. So, we don't know. Is it five? It could be more, could be less. Um, so, and it it there could be some money buried in certain line items, >> but again, that general contractor won

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the bid by their lowest bid. So, >> I mean, it it it's just that's just the nature of it. It's it's not as transparent. Not saying it's necessarily bad. It's just not as transparent. Thank you. Um,

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is there ever an occasion and and I don't do public work, I only do private construction, so I don't know for sure, but is there ever an occasion where shared savings of the general contractor's contingency is negotiated

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into the contract? And by shared save, I mean meaning that if they carry a million dollars for their contingency and they use $250,000 of it, you know, we may say, you know, if you if you're on time, on budget, and

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everything goes right, we may say you're entitled to a 10% 10% of your contingency. Is there is there ever anything like that? In my world, there is. In your world, I don't know. >> So there there is a component in the law to to implement uh shared savings. Okay.

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>> Um I've never done it. Um I'd have to look at the law again, but uh years ago I decided not to do it. And the reason why is uh I think the intent is like if the project is delivered early, you know, there would be like a bonus, >> right? >> Bonus, right?

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>> The carrot with the stick on LDS, >> right? I I don't like I don't like to implement that because the >> um if you go CMR the >> harmonious team approach as soon as you incorporate um like a bonus at the end

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if you deliver the project two months earlier as soon as all of a sudden things get weaponized. >> Oh, AI3 is taking too long with a submitt. They didn't answer the RFI. It it just >> Yep. and I didn't want to. So, I've never

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implemented that in any of my projects. Not saying other projects may have, but >> but it's not necessarily something a general contractor would come in and go, "Hey, let's negotiate this into as part of the the situation because it's not a common." >> The good news is with the CMR,

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>> any contract savings that are left >> all default back to the owner, >> right? So that's the that's the great part of >> So there's um I mean this is getting a little bit into the weeds. There's um pre-construction services non-negotiable. So you know if they say

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our pre-construction services is $200,000 that's it. That's it. Um whatever they provide for their fee non-negotiable. Um their general conditions somewhat negotiable. Um but the other component

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that's on a project is um called project requirements. And I consider that that's kind of like the means and methods of setting up the project to build a project. Whereas general conditions is really like kind of mostly staff, >> right?

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>> But if there's an underrun of general uh project conditions, that's returned to the owner. Historically that return is fairly minimal but um to Jim's point it is returned. >> It's the CM contingency that is usually

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a large bucket that is returned. >> Okay. Um I think this is my final question. Um so I think it was slide 23. We were talking about um um how you qualify or pre-qualify design,

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bid, build contractors, so on and so forth. Um so that 70% that you reference, is that their DAM score or is that an overall evaluation that you use um different from how they are scored by DAM? cuz

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we all know that you know DAM scores are not perfect in of in and of themselves either >> and DAM uh division of capital U management administration and management >> um so >> so it's a little

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um interesting the a uh DAM score um a failure is a 79 so an 80 is a pass and just growing up, you kind of think like, well, an 80 that that's like a B. That's good. >> Not necessarily. >> I mean, I I had plenty of 80s.

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>> Not my house. >> Um, but the 70 here is um a method or not is a uh formula that is very structured that's done by Mass General law statute.

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>> Okay. And uh it's made up of you know this component is worth five five points and this component is worth 10 and 15 and 25 and there's a whole formula and in my opinion um it's fairly easy I think to get a 70

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like you have to be really bad >> to get below a 70. >> Yeah in my opinion >> exactly. Um, and if you you you're not allowed to you're not allowed during the

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pre-qualification process to um just because a certain general contractor might have been problematic for a town or someone else or you or just to like purposely tank them cuz they'll go to the they'll go to the

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attorney general and say I got inappropriate completely tanked and there was a process there was a problem and the AG tends to side with them so it's >> okay >> it it's a little challenging at times >> you might but the but the point being is

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you know it's all it's not really subjective but it is to a certain degree and 70% is not a huge >> to your point it's just >> it's not a large threshold for them to uh overcome >> yeah and and let me you know there are some CMS in the industry that do hard

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bids too. Like they they they you know they move in both both arenas. >> Yep. >> Um but again um to me from doing this presentation with other clients the biggest driver I've seen from clients is

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that they say so we can pick who we want to work with and that seems to be their biggest like driver to go that way. uh versus pre-qualifying and you may have six that you pre-qualified and you know

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three are great and the other three you're hoping you know they don't rise to the top >> right >> and you just don't know >> right okay >> I have one more question just based on obviously nobody has a crystal ball but

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based on your experience um design bid build versus seem at risk uh in a project of this scope, are you do you have any sense of how many people you maybe anticipate would even bid on

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projects of this size? Like are you seeing that right now people are slower or >> I know typically there's a handful of people in each that >> Yeah, I I think it it it depends on the timing and who's busy and who's not. Um,

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you know, as an example, in Groten down the street, I think we we we went CMR and we pre-qualified um 12, which I think is like a record. That's a lot. >> Um, but as an example, for the Brockton

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job we're doing, there's probably only three in the area. >> Given the size of it, >> given the size of it, >> could be $900 million. >> Yeah. And there's probably CMS that are doing joint ventures. >> That's what we're going to see. They can't the the the larger CMS can't even bond that job. So, what they'll do is a

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couple even the larger CMs will joint venture on that together. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um I again don't have a Crystal ball. Um but I would say we could probably have six uh CM firms that would be definitely

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interested. Um you know, maybe more. um you know uh in Grten when we had 12 maybe an anomaly it just that just happened with the timing >> other questions or comments we got >> I just have one it might be hard to not

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I don't precise but just in terms of like approximate percentage of the MSBA school projects of this scale like is it what how many are are selecting I don't what was that slide >> yep So 78. So

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>> So it's like split them. >> Yeah. It's it's it's about, you know, 8020. 7822. It's um and that's based on me hitting that demarcation at a thousand students. Um, if I were to move

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it up to say 1,400 students, which you know rounding is where we are, I would bet that that 78 would probably go to 84 85 because the the the higher the higher you go it or the bigger the project is,

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um, the more probability they went CMR. And from that same pool, you're showing that about 79% new construction when is is it that's the same pool as the 5743? >> No, the the the pool of 7919 and one

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that is based on the 150 projects. >> 150 projects. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Do you know would you would you be able to pull that data for the bigger projects, new construction versus ad rena, what that percentage might be? Is that is that a a tangible number or is that

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>> um Yeah, I'd have to I'd have to do the analysis. My gut tells me that if the project is ad rena um and it's large uh it would most likely go CMR. It's even more of a >> risk.

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I was surprised to see that 79% construction. Could I add some personal um perspective or at least the firm perspective? I really shouldn't say personal but the firm's perspective uh around these numbers. Um, so I while I was sitting

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here I I penciled out the schools that we were we're doing now uh left field and we're currently managing 30 schools between Rhode Island and Massachusetts and New Hampshire and we're actually doing six with with

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AI3 and I will say that so to be transparent all 30 of these schools have going CM at risk. Um, and you know and why is that? And again, I go back to Christine. I think she still asked the operative question, you know, what's the risk

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register here, right? And to me, the risk and and David hit on a little bit isn't in this case isn't really around the project because, you know, in fact, you know, Troy and I have these debates internally, right? And while we're doing

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six projects right now and all six with Troy's team are seem at risk, Troy has done some very successful projects. DBB. The reason why Troy's projects were very successful is

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he worked with very successful CMS. The CMS on the, you know, the 90 side as opposed to the 70 side. As an advocate for the town, working with one of your, you know, what's going to be probably one of the more major construction projects that that the town

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undertakes. I never like to take the risk on possibly getting that 70 person as opposed to the 90. If I could be assured I was going to get the 90, this project's probably in that risk register where we we you could consider going design but build. So I I just want to

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make sure Christine heard that, you know, and I agree with you. It's it's the right question. But not knowing on such a large project who you're going to be working with and not knowing how to track that cost along the way, that's where I drift and come back to the CM at risk. But I want to be transparent about

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us as a firm and how we view things and how we view things on your behalf. You may agree with it, you may not, but I want to allow that perspective. >> Excellent. Excellent. And for the town's perspective, >> I wanted to >> this um is this would undoubtedly be the

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very largest project this town has ever embarked on. Larger than our sewer project, which was about a hund00 million plus. But um just for the people at home and the people here, this is the largest project that the Tana Chood has

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ever embarked upon. So um you know, we've got to take these kinds of conversations very seriously. So okay, any other questions or comments regarding that? Okay, we'll move on to the next agenda item if that's it. And the next item is

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the schedule for town meeting approval and community outreach. It is the last last slide deck of this uh presentation. So I will keep it quick. Uh so we we put all these dates

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together with uh Mr. Cohen and um this is a mini schedule targeting uh for the town meeting and dep um depth exclusion votes uh approval. So it starts with September 17th

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um the initial review of the project budget. So after after the SD package put together and um getting the numbers from the estimators, we will uh review the initial budget uh with you um at the

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school building committee meeting on 17th and then um the next step will be presenting uh the project before the finance committee on uh October 8th uh and then uh before the select board um

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on October 12th. So those are the typical uh days of the week that uh finance committee and select board >> what what I might suggest and I know it's going to kind of affect the uh schedule here is that we have to report

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if if we have to report anything to town meeting or what we what we've seen and reviewed on this particular project uh we have to do it uh >> this is not for fall town meeting presentation. This is not for fall town meeting. Okay. As long as that's the case. >> In fact, the reason we did this is this

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would be after you've completed your work on the it would be fall town meeting. >> You could then now be unencumbered to say, "Okay, we're going to pull the meeting after that, but before town meeting to this." >> Just want to make sure that there's nothing we need to report. >> Your deadline is like really October 1st. >> It is. Yeah.

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>> That that that was my concern. Yeah. >> Yeah. This is targeting for January 11th. Uh >> okay. >> 2027 town meeting. >> Special town meeting. special town meeting and then January uh 26th depth exclusion vote. So

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uh we need to submit the package to the MSBA. I mean the package is SD package and SD package also will include the budget and schedule. So um and the deadline is October 22nd. That's why we

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want to present before the finance committee and before the select board. Um and then before this board so left field and AI3 can get authorization to submit the SD package to the MSBA on

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October uh 21st. Um and then we might have um FAS meetings. Uh they might choose to have the FAS meeting or not. Um I don't know.

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I think in Kingsboro we didn't have a face meeting for SD package. Uh but it's >> I would expect not >> that it's not going to happen like it's not required. >> That's been my experience by the time you like you know

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>> we have our act together >> especially given how positive how positive the um project was received at the current SAF FAS meeting. Mhm. >> But definitely we will meet uh with the

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MSBA to review the project scope and budget. Um so it will be probably the week of November 9th and uh after that meeting uh MSBA will submit to the town

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uh it's called project scope and funding agreement and that will be also part of the um SD package and um after that meeting we will know the exact uh amount

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of the project budget And um like either it can go to the town meeting warrant article uh on November 20th or we can wait uh until uh until

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the board approval which will be done on uh December 9th. If I could just add HD um like around when when we do the initial review of the project budget in September um and

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then in in October when we submit the schematic design um the total project budget will be known like that won't that won't move. what we'll um move or we'll know and have confirmation on is when the week of

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hypothetically November 9th when we have the project scope and budget conference that's when the MSBA um and and the district and the team reviews what the budget is called a 311 and they will you know finite say like

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this is your maximum reimbursement but for the purposes of um the warrant an article and that number that's the total project number and that's going to be known well you know in advance. >> Yep. When when we submit the SD correct

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so it will include the uh total project number but like David said uh the 31 and reimbursement uh might might change slightly. So, >> but from a a tax impact analysis, you

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know, in September, I you know, by by that point, you know, Hamdi and I are so familiar filling out 311s, we're we're pretty accurate. Um and uh you know, if we're inaccurate by $50,000, that's not going to move the

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needle at all when a tax assessment. Um, so I feel that, you know, again in the fall we'll be able to give you a a uh, you know, a fairly accurate um, this is what we feel the district um, you know,

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share is going to be. Um, and and we also do it in a conservative fashion where you know if the project comes in under budget then you know you know your district share goes down too. Um so >> what's our lead time for um establishing

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um town meeting and debt exclusion vote? >> Tech technically >> 14 >> it's 14 days for a special town meeting has to be posted but that's not practically how it works. >> Yeah. >> And technically it's 35 days for an election but that's not practically how it works.

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>> 35 days is that >> calendar days or >> Yeah. calendar days. Um, realistically, you know, you you really need a month. Um, and for the ballot, you know, if you know what's coming, remember on the ballot there's not the dollar amount.

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You know, remember people in town may remember that when we voted the this the ballot questions are specified by state law and you know, so we could we could print the ballot language tomorrow because we know what the statute provides. So that's why you know people might get anxious. So we we don't know

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the exact dollar amount, the exact doesn't matter. What what matters is the town meeting vote that authorizes the appropriation that's approved by the two/3s vote. Um so that's why when we develop this, you know, really what you got to have in mind is, you know, if you

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want to go from forward perspective, you have your initial review the third week of September on the 17th. The first two weeks of October are the presentations of the select board, finance committee, school committee, and then this committee going out and then basically the the the big key dates are the, you

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know, the MSBA board meeting on December 9th. Now, again, kind of like what we're seeing here is I I don't think there's going to be an expectation that MSBA is going to deny the project when we show up in December. That's not going to happen. Just like we know our meeting last week, we know in the meeting in

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June 24th, they're not going to deny the project. So that's why you can prepare these things and get these things ahead of time to go to your point. So therefore, the selectment committee signing a warrant for an election, you know, in December 1st, you know, and and you know, and and

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in the you know, in the huge unlikely event that the MSPA didn't approve the prosecutor, cancel the election, but that's not going to happen. The key thing is is how do you get the information out for voter consideration? And the key here is we've avoided the

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Christmas holiday in New Year school break holiday period. So what's really going to happen is >> we'll be out to the community saying, "Hey, we've got official MSBA board meeting approval, you know, two weeks before Christmas." And then basically what you're doing is you're not coming back to the ballot till the

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second full week of January and then your town meeting to your last you know Tuesday I'm sorry your election to your last Tuesday in January and that's the key. So in other words you're it's it's really the question of how can you in that time frame address the community where you're going to have responsible

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consideration of it. So that's what Hi and I worked on. So long long story short is the warrants can be prepared well in advance. the ballots can be prepared well in advance in terms of the warrant the election warrant and the actual ballots themselves because it's going to be a one question ballot right

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you know and all that can be set up so the key thing is is what we what we felt is given the all this all pivots are on MSBA board approval you know so given that that's you know December 9th that's why the realistic scenario is is town

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meeting you know you know after the first full week of January where everybody's back in and schools are reopen and everything else. You come back that following Monday for the town meeting vote and then two weeks later at the end of the month you you're you're then able to get your votes. We are

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leaving January with a result. That that's really the key. And then that way the schedule that we talked about earlier can take place because you can't push up any further. Think about it. You can keep pushing this thing up into early January or late. >> I'm actually surprised we're where >> there's no sense pushing and there's no

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sense pushing it out into February, our worst April. I mean, >> exactly. >> Because then you lose in three months and you know, we're sitting here talking about, you know, what are movein dates and and liquidated damages and when you can move in, you know, the community doesn't want to be hamstring itself by losing three months for nothing because

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>> again, it all pivots around MSBA. >> Then you get too close to town meeting. >> Exactly. Why have a special election election town election is beginning of April so I think >> April April 6th that's the problem so you know right so it's it's a ways away

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>> and and I think that's where that's what we look at and then the same thing as you know from the town perspective >> that that end of January thing is clear because once you clear as you know town budget and all this operational stuff starts the first week of February >> so it's that that was the window that we

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put this in that I think is fair to everything it's fair to the people's attention and their schedules around the holidays. It's fair to consideration of this and then it's fair going afterward which is what Pat's going at is after this is over then you're resetting to do the operating budget the town election

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which is April and I think we're trying to not blend those and muddy those things because if that's the case then it's going to be you know it'll be really difficult. >> Yeah. For the finance comm perspective we we would have to we'd have to report no later than the 28th of December right >> um and that that means published out

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there information off and that's gonna be a tough week to let people know. >> Right. But on Right. On a on a one article warrant. >> On a one article Yeah. One article warrant. Yeah. >> But you really would be meeting >> we would want we would want to meet >> Yeah. You'd be you'd be considering it before the MSBA vote quite frankly because >> we really should. Yes.

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>> Yeah. Because you know look this is what this is what the MSBA is considering and if the MSBA approves it here's your recommendation. >> But we we would need the warrant to be um signed by the select board prior to that. So, I'm just saying is if the warrant article wasn't submitted on the 20th and we waited because I think

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there's a discussion about possibly waiting on the warrant article. I I it would create a kind of a log jam, >> right? And that's and that's why that's get the 20th is perfect. Yeah. >> That's that's what I mean and I were trying to fit this into the town's the holiday schedule and then the town's budgetary schedule and election schedule

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>> and this this works, >> you know, it's sensible. It's definitely sensible. >> It's fair. Yeah, a couple of days are off like October 12th is technically Columbus Day, so probably the 5th to the select board and probably school committee on the 13th. Those type of things, but

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really that's >> Thanksgiving in there, too. >> Thanksgiving is in there obviously, you know, >> Thanksgiving. It's the 27th. >> No, that's it. You're out of time. Thanksgiving the 27th. So, you're out of that 26th.

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>> The 26th. Yeah. So, you're trying again. So we're working all these dates trying to work around the holidays but to be fair >> to people and therefore you know once people reset then they really can can go into town meeting give their feedback to the reps town meeting and then more

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importantly to the ballot um and you're not so anyway that was the the situation as you know Pat you mentioned earlier our original goal was to go to the November ballot but we got derailed at the onset by MSBA that makes that not possible. So that's

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>> which would have been really advantageous for us as >> you could have had 60% turnout in the election, >> right? Which would bode better for a project like this in >> would have been question number 12 or something >> the election. >> Yeah. Right.

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All right. Um, I think it makes sense and and I really do and I think based on the size of the project and the um, >> you know, just what we're asking for, I think it makes sense to just separate this away from

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>> all the other business justice and I agree. >> As you said, it's the largest priority that Tom's ever considered and will consider for a while and therefore it's got to, you know, be be respected in those things. >> Okay. Excellent. Um, every any comments or questions

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regarding that schedule? Okay. Uh, community outreach. Is there anything we I I I have a couple of I Well, I have a question mostly for Jay, but if if there's any uh commentary before that. Um, >> honestly, Pat, um, I I have nothing this

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meeting for community outreach. I apologize. >> Oh, no, no, not a problem. Um, just with with >> preparing everything else for the uh the deck. Um, >> yeah. Yeah. So, I just I have a comment like um

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we've made some really good strides. So, now we can start seriously thinking about community outreach and that type of thing. And that's why tonight I'm being much more explanatory and, you know, I'm not using, you know, um CMR or, you know, DAM and that those types

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of things because it's really important that we educate the community. So, we've talked in the past and and and maybe we should put a um an item on the next agenda to talk more about community outreach because I I think people should

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really start to think about our approach to all of this. But um I know in the past um and this was back in 2004 uh the the last MSBA project that we did

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um um I just lost my train of thought. Anyway, there was a group. There was an advocacy group. And what the town needs to understand is that >> he she I may not be able to go out and advocate as much as a or legally

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advocate as much as a ancillary group, >> correct? >> That really gets out there, does yard signs, does mailings, does, you know, raises money and does all those things. So, um, to that end, I guess my question for Dr. Lang would be would it make

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sense for me to or somebody to come to a school committee meeting because the school committee is actually the real people that are hearing from the parents out there and you know that citizenry that is important and I think would it

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make sense to come and make a not a plea but you know just ask the school committee to reach out to their various PTAs different people and say is Is there anybody interested? The the group that was um that was utilized 25 years

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ago was um called SOS, Save Our Schools. So, you know, again, we haven't built a school, a new school in this town since 1974, you know, 50 years. Um, so, you know, would that make sense for somebody to come before the school committee and

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say, you know, we need your help and we need you to reach out to your constituency and um, can we get something together and and then maybe just start talking about how we we pull it together? >> We certainly could. Um, and I know like that has been a conversation that's come

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up when even left field has presented little updates to the school committee. Um Dennis and the school committee have talked about one of those kind of yes groups or you know a support for the project group. Um Chelmsford obviously has a very involved PTO uh group at each of the different schools. They have an

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overarching group called the council of schools which is representative of all the PTOs. We have had some discussions already around putting like a subgroup together specifically of parents that are interested in helping to support and push this project. um we were waiting to the point where we actually had the decision on the grade level

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configuration and the build and we're kind of at that point. So between now and really the end of uh or middle of June till we get out of school, we've got about a monthlong window uh to kind of start to convene some of this. What we've been advertising is that next meeting of ours for the community on June 10th um to really push some parents

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who might be interested in getting together to work on this committee to come and attend that meeting if they can. Uh but we certainly beyond that even at like school committee meetings or whatnot can have those conversations but there is work uh kind of going on to uh to start that. Excellent. Um but I think it's a great idea to keep it as a

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running agenda item and um definitely as we get into you know June, July, August, we have to get this uh group kind of formed. Um start to really make sure that they know the information as well as we know the information because when September comes we really have to kind of hit the uh the road hard educating

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the town. >> Yeah. I I can tell you that left field and AI3 we've um we've talked about um outreach um and you are correct Pat you know our job is to educate not advocate um and um but you know AI3 has

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experience that they've seen from other communities and same with left field and um again we just talked offline about sharing our uh experiences and what we've seen and and you know I think what we try to do is um uh present some sort

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of uh road map um at the next the next meeting >> and then um from there as Dr. Lang indicated that um you know maybe a group will be forming as well and so forth because the the uh political action

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group um or the pack will say um you know there's certain things they can do that we can't do. >> That's correct. So >> from a legal standpoint. >> Yes. Yes. >> Mr. Chairman, just to expand on that, I know everybody at this table is probably aware of this, but you know, under state law, the town cannot even send a factual

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information sheet out when there's a Proposition 2 and a half dead exclusion question. So, even if it's not advocacy advocacy piece saying this is why you should vote yes, this is why you should vote no. Everybody knows we can't do that. Even when we we as we learned with the fire station vote and that um the

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office of campaign and political finance sends information to town administration either the town manager or to my office saying just be aware you cannot so we can't even send a piece out saying you know park or school is x years old it

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will need x million dollar of repairs. This is why so we can't even do a factual sheet. So that's why the this out this secondary group is so important to help educate. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Other questions or comments on

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community outreach? Seeing none, um we have no public comment that I see here tonight. Um any other discussion, commentary or anything like that before we uh move to adjourn? I I I uh and I'll take I'll take this um

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I'll take this time to to thank uh Mr. Cohen for his um for his involvement in this committee and his uh just about 20 years of uh service to our community. Uh we've done some great things over the years and gotten a lot of projects done

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and and such. So uh you will be missed. Um hopefully our next manager uh I know our interim manager but I is and hopefully our next manager is is uh uh as amenable to working together and brainstorming together as we've had and

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we've done in the past and uh um so uh so thank you Paul. best wishes um in all your future endeavors and uh we'll stop by uh uh and say hello on our way to the lake some weekend and uh um and and and

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so on. So uh thank you again for for your service. And with that I'd entertain a motion to adjurnn. Have >> a motion tojourn from Tim, second from Christine. All in favor? I opposed. Unanimous.

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Thank you.