through the building. They created like a big opening. >> So, so yeah, that happens. >> Finish that. >> It's not ideal, but sometimes that's so there's several that that Yeah, absolutely. It happens all the time. >> Amazingly updated. >> So, it's usually a taxable development of some sort.
>> You know, the biggest expensive utilities because you have to relocate any utilities >> boyfriend >> out of the you're probably going to have sewer, you're going to have electricity, communications. >> They have to follow the process of the planning and zoning board and then go.
It's like a whole >> Alex, can you hear me? >> Yeah, but I don't hear you. >> Larry, >> was Joanna's market with Medicaid
now. Yeah. But you know, >> you need one, right? >> Testing one, two, three. >> So anyway, maybe I don't know where she went, but she went somewhere. >> When I dropped Jonathan off at Brandise,
I went to the airport on the plane. I got home. J was actually was okay. went to Brown >> and yeah, >> Alex, can you hear me? >> No. Talk to me.
>> Nope. You're not coming into the chamber. >> Got married year ago and they just had a baby. >> I have nine. >> Eight children. The oldest is 20. >> Hey, my goodness. How are you?
>> Jesus, it's been so long. You were here. >> Yeah. Can you believe that? >> Congratulations. >> Yeah, I said that and then I thought >> No, it's Congratulations. >> It is. It is. >> You guys are here. I thought you were like,
>> "Okay, >> right. I thought you're out there." I couldn't have done that with any of my husbands. >> Oh, what's that guy? Are you kidding? And then yeah, he's pretty easy. He's pretty frail man. And uh
No way. Oh, yes. >> Where's my phone? >> How are you? >> All right, folks. >> I know. Me, too. I'm trying to use them. I'm more comfortable. So pretty.
Oh, she's not here yet. >> I'll be doing >> I'm still so sensitive to >> So she gets >> Miss Bonia. >> Let me go find out where >> Okay, we're back to just walking with a
cane and sometimes not anything. exercises. >> Oh, good. >> It's now 3 after 4. Are we waiting for the court reporter? >> The um the court reporter assigned to our meeting is stuck in traffic on I95
and she will not make it by 4. They're sending someone else who's currently in route, but she'll be here about 4:20. >> Okay. Miss Lawyer, what can we do in the meantime? >> I'm sorry. At what time, Miss >> 420? 420.
>> The court recorder. >> Oh, >> it's the first day of school. >> Um, >> yeah, for all of us, >> we can begin with discussion. Um, generally, these are items we like to have transcripts for to the extent that they go to the commission. So whether or not they're required, I think it's something that's helpful to have for the
commission. So I don't know if you want to take a brief recess until the court reporter appears or if you want to generally even all the introductory information that you share as part of the record for any possible appeals. So I would suggest that we wait until the court reporter appears if that's
acceptable to the board. I think in the interest of time we need to wait >> going through the process calling a meeting to order da da da da. All of that is generally a part of the official record and transcript. So to the extent that anybody ever appeals any of these items, that information is already
available in the transcript. >> Any votes or anything without that? >> There's no requirement um for our general meeting minutes etc that there be like approval of the minutes for instance that there be a transcript of that. It's just generally helpful to have that for processing the minutes. Um
we do have a video available. So it we could start the meeting and um do the consideration of the minutes. I would just note that the any introductory information you give about exparte communications, the role of the board, etc. will then not be made a part of the transcript if and when somebody needs
that transcript to appeal anything. >> Okay. So then we'll we'll just call the meeting to order and move through that. Not discuss any of those items there that are on the list and then we can discuss board material. I'm not sure what on the agenda you're referring to that's the board material besides the approval of the minutes
>> discussion of something >> I'm sorry Mr. Maxwell, I can't hear you. >> I'm sorry. Like a board discussion. >> We could again generally that information is transcribed and sent to the city commission. So it wouldn't be a part of the official transcript. It would only be a part of the meeting minutes.
>> That'll be fine. Okay, great. Then >> where are you? Yeah, we'll go down to these discussion items and stuff like that. Also, we need to I think we need to do the elections for the chair vice chair today, too. >> No, that's What's up? >> We're still missing a member.
>> We only have eight. >> Why not? You're still the chair. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> All right, ladies and gentlemen. >> Good afternoon. I think I hope that all of you heard the discussion. Uh, our
court reporter has been delayed, so we're going to move forward. We're going to be delayed in in coming up with the in discussing the actual public hearing. We're going to try to do the things that we would normally do at the end beforehand. So, which is not part of the official record. So,
>> Mr. Maxwell, can I just ensure that we're um recording this video? I think we are not yet either. I just wanted to make sure that we have an accurate transcript and record um whether or not it's the actual court reporter. So, if you could just wait a moment. I think we're trying to make sure that this video is recorded as well.
>> Okay. Let me know when when that occurs if you would please agenda the right size. There you go. Are we um ready to record the meeting? >> Okay, Mr. Maxwell, um if we could let um
Eively please begin recording the audio, then we can begin with those items. Thank you. >> Thank you, Stephanie. is true. >> Are we recording? >> Are we recording? >> Yes. >> Okay. Yes, Mr. Maxwell.
>> Thank you very much. All right, ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. We're going to call the meeting to order. Um, good afternoon. Welcome to the regularly scheduled meeting of the city of Coral Gables Historic Preservation Board. We are residents of Coral Gables and are charged with the preservation and protection of historic or
architecturally worthy buildings, structures, sites, neighborhoods, and artifacts which impart a distinct historical car heritage of the city. The board is comprised of nine members, seven of whom are appointed by the commission, one by the city manager, and
the ninth is selected by the board and confirmed by the commission. Five members of the board constitute a quorum and five affirm and five affirmative votes are necessary for the adoption of any motion. Any person who acts as a lobbyist
pursuant to the city of Coral Gable's ordinance number 2006-11 must register with the city clerk prior to engaging in lobbying activities or presentations before city staff, boards, committees, and/or the city commission. Copy of the ordinance is available in
the office of the city clerk. Failure to register and provide proof of registration shall prohibit your ability to present to the historic preservation board on applications under consideration this afternoon. Lobbyist is is defined as an individual, corporation, partnership, or other legal
entity employed or retained, whether paid or not, by a principle who seeks to encourage the approval, disapproval, adoption, repeal, passage, defeat, or modifications of any ordinance, resolution, action, or decision of any city commissioner. Any action, decision,
recommendation of the city manager, any city board or committee not include including but not limited to quasi judicial advisory board, trust authority or council or any action, decision or
recommendation of the city personnel during the time period of the entire decision-making process of the action decision or recommendation, excuse me, which foreseeably will be heard or be viewed by the city commission or a city board or committee
including but not limited to quasi judicial advisory board trust authority or council. Presentations to this board which is quasi judicial are subject to the city's false claims ordinance chapter 39 of the city of Coral Gable
city code. I now officially call the city of Coral Gable's historic preservation board meeting of what's today? The 15th. No, August 14th, 2025 at
4:11 p.m. Present today are, let me see who's there. To my far left, Marlon Ever next to her, Kelly Shield, following Michelle Quervo Da and
Alejandra Silva, who's our vice chair. To the end, Mrs. Anna Alvarez, Donna Spain, and Cesar Garcia. Absent today is Margaret Rolando. Approval of the minutes. Next item on the agenda is approval of
the minutes held on what? July 10th, I think it is. If you'll excuse me. >> Yes, July 10th, 2025. >> Through the chair, I'd like to make a motion to defer There's a motion to defer.
>> Would you please explain? >> Uh, yes. I'd like to add some additional information and explanation. Uh, specifically on the motions, I'd like a motion to defer so that that can be corrected. >> We have a motion by Miss J.
>> Can we can we just do it now? >> I'd have to go back and and look again at the exact language to be accurate. I could try, but I'd rather defer. >> I'll second the motion to defer. >> We have a motion by Miss Dana, second by Mr. Silva.
>> I had the language if you wanted. >> No, no, she just Let's just go on and do that. I think we can do a voice vote on this. >> Correct. >> Yes. All those in favor say I. >> I. >> Opposed. >> Name. >> Have one opposition. Miss Spain.
Okay. Exparte Communications. Please be advised that this board is a quasi judicial board and the items on the agenda are quasi judicial in nature which requires board members to disclose all exparte communications. An exparte
communication is defined as any contact communication, conversation, correspondence, memorandum, or other written or verbal communication that takes place outside a public hearing between a member of the public and a member of a quasi judicial board regarding matters to be heard by the
quasi judicial board. If anyone has made any contact with a board member when the issue comes before the board, the member must state on the record the existence of the exparte communication, the party who originated the communication, and whether the communication will affect the board member's ability to
impartially consider the evidence presented. Deferrals. Are there any items on the agenda that have been deferred? Hearing none, there are none. swearing in. If any persons in the audience will be testifying or speaking today, please
rise, raise your hand to be sworn in. All right. Our go to the agenda. Okay. The first item on our agenda since our court reporter has brave traffic. >> Mr. Chair, we would like to move 405
Viscaya the um COA application to the first item, please. >> Yeah, let me Okay. the historic I'll do that with the historical designation. Our first item is local historical designation case file LD LH I'm sorry what
>> she wants to the public >> Mr. Mr. Maxwell, there's been a request to hear the certificate of appropriateness prior to the designation. >> Okay, that's fine. Okay, so shift in the agenda.
Okay, we're going to then hear case file COA SP 2025-018, an application for the issuance of a special certificate of appropriateness for the property at 405 Viscaya Avenue, a contributing resource within the French Normandy Village Historic
District, legally described as portions of lot 10 and 11, block 4, the French village of Coral Gables, according to the plat plat book 29, page 71, Miami Dade records applicant request after the
fact design approval for the installation of impact resistant windows and doors. >> Mr. Maxwell, if you don't mind, for the record, I just want to clarify. I know we have a little bit of a different board makeup than the last um two times this item is before us. And I just
wanted um Miss Alvarez, who's joining us for the first time on this item, in order to sort of condense the presentations down, if she could just confirm if she's reviewed the um prior information and uh presentations, I think that would be helpful in um condensing the amount of time needed for presentations on this item.
>> Yes, I've watched the recordings of the last two meetings. >> Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Maxwell. >> Thank you. >> If you can bring the PowerPoint up, please. >> So, I wasn't going to give you all a full presentation for the third time. Um, I'll just do a brief intro.
Again, this is the location of the property in question. It's a contributing structure within the French Normandy Village Historic District that was designated um in 1987. They were designed by John and Colton Skinner constructed uh circa 192627.
So, as I mentioned before, we don't have a 40s photograph or a 20's photograph of this house in specific. These are two early photos of the village. And on the right are the uh permit drawings that are um uh were originally permitted.
So this was how we found the property upon inspection. Um the application is for after the fact design approval for the installation of impact resistant windows and doors. Um and they're here specifically for the reflectivity of the glass and the mutton pattern. So as you'll see this is the um the inspection
where the muttons and the glass did not match what was specified. I went out um last week and they have corrected the muttons to match what was on the permitted set of plans. So the only issue um that remains for the board to consider is now the glass, the
reflectivity of the glass. So I will turn it over to the applicant. >> Can we ask questions at this time or we wait? >> I have questions. May I ask questions? Cara,
>> that's Mr. N. >> Hi. >> I just I think it's important and I just wanted to follow up and make sure that it's in this in this record. maybe a different slant. Um so and you can answer yes or no or expand if you wish.
Um Coral Gables is a certified local government. So we have to abide um by the federal regulations in the secretary of interior standards and these are the standards that are the sole criteria to be used in determining whether to grant
a COA. Is that correct? >> Yes. >> Okay. And is there any interpretation of the standards that would permit the type of colored reflected reflective glass um that was placed in this uh case in a window on a historic building?
>> So kind of a loaded question. Um the standards uh talk about recommendations for glazing to not be reflective or tinted. Um in other municipalities they have adopted design guidelines that
reference low E glass and the use of low E glass up to a certain percentage. Um we did not have that in in our case. So we just say no low E >> right and I think in those other um circumstances it's a 79% and the current
SB70 windows were approximately 60 to 64. So they would not meet any of those standards in any event. But I want to refer to the um exact um information or the exact standards that says that where
um replacement is required, the new feature shall match the old in design, color, texture and other visual qualities. So based upon that statement with regard to um color and reflectivity,
is there any way that this would be an exception and be approved under the standards? >> It depends on how you interpret that standard. It's applicable to every aspect of a building. Um, and we if we
if we went specifically by the standard on every instance, then the windows would have to be the same frame color, the same mountain width, the same I mean everything would have to be exactly the same. The the sticking point in
in the standard um as it's explained in these technical briefs is reflectivity of glass. So the material is is glass. It's it's you we're not changing material. It's we're only changing what you see from the exterior. Does that
make sense? It's it's an interpretation of the of the standard. So it's more like a visual approach because you actually stated correct that you recommend not granting the certificate of appropriateness because now based upon
the reflectivity reflectivity the mutton situation has been resolved although I do have some issues with regard to um the misstatements and false statements made that I will address later. That was uh yes, we recommended denial of the COA
because of the glazing. >> Okay. And if this window, for example, was on my street or someplace else in Coral Gables, it would not um be granted a certificate of of appropriateness. Correct. >> No, not necessarily. So, a
non-contributing residence, yes, we've allowed different types of glass on those types of houses. on a 19 let's say a 1960s house which is much more modern and had a different type of glass when it was built. Yes, maybe. >> Okay. >> So, it's not an across the board.
Everything is a case- by case basis. And in this particular house, that glazing does not match the style of the house. That's that was our >> I see. So, you're actually looking back at the homes back in the 1920s when this was built and based upon that historic fact um the standards would not have
been met. I understand. Okay, thank you. I just have um a couple final questions. Um so window fenestration is a a crucial part of historic fabric of a building, correct? >> Yes. >> Okay. And um when you
sent the certificate of appropriateness to the applicants, >> um it specifically stated, I was looking at the record again, clear, no tint, and no reflectivity. And that was attached to the letter that you mailed to them in October. Correct. >> It was It's attached to the COA and the
permit. Yes. >> Okay. Thank you. If I may. Hello, Anna Peris. I'm back from leave um preservation officer and and again, I also did review the videos that um for the last two cases for the application
and I appreciate everyone's thorowness and discussion on the items. There's a couple things and you kind of brought some of it up and I think Cara even explained is that these are meant to be guidelines. They're meant to be interpreted by the office of of and by our staff and that's why we look at them
all by case by on case by case basis. So it's important to us that you know we know that these aren't creating a precedent and that we're working with applicants to kind of get to our best the best efforts of preservation that we can. Right? So this property we know they didn't remove original features of
the building. They didn't damage any historic character original characteristic, you know, they didn't change opening sizes. They didn't This is a reversible and likely will be replaced again within the next 10 to 20 years because these windows do not last forever
um and will come before us. So you know we know that going through their application and having looked at the district itself there have been multiple iterations of different approvals over time because technology changes materials change products change low E
can their clear goes from you know 80% to 10% so it just depends on where you find the sweet spot and so I think what Carol was saying is that some municipalities have been able to go so specific in their design guidelines to say you know what 60 works 80 too much,
10 is too little. So, we haven't gone that far. I think that's something that we need to look at and especially in a district like this where we can see because the houses are the same and they're right next to each other that we see the bronze, the white, the clear glass, the beige glass, the tinted glass, the reflective. I see Cara's
reflection in one picture and not in the other. You know, it's just the angle you're looking at it. And here they have blinds so you're clearly seeing the color of the glass that you know we can make those changes and do a study and create either district appropriate um
guidelines or some sort of plan that a homeowner can pick up and get and say okay moving forward this is what's going to happen and implement those within our our process. But it's important that you and we're you when we do that we're using obviously the secretary of interior standards and on any new
technical briefing that has come out >> right 25 years >> if we want to go there then others have interpreted the secretary of interior standards with regard to Loey to apply only to 79% or greater and that's not what these windows were. So are you
saying then that maybe it should be reconsidered the actual reflectivity of these particular windows or that your original determination to deny the certificate of of appropriate in this case I'm kind of looking at the overall standards that we
look at and how we review window applications. I wasn't part of the application for the review so I can't speak to the specificity specificity of the window that is installed there. >> Okay. just from what was presented through their presentations the last two meetings, >> right? But you would feel that highly
reflective. I mean, I believe even Miss Rolando was commenting on how highly reflective these >> I don't know if this is the highest reflectivity that they have. So, what does this compared to? >> Okay. >> Is there another one that maybe is mirrored? >> Maybe just visual since you don't have those standards yet. Although if you
look up the SB70, it says between 60 and 64%. Which is way below the 79% that some cities permit, but that's not the point like you're saying. >> Yeah, that's why I'm looking at it more visual. It'd be more visual. And then I'm always all about fairness. So I I
feel that you know when these rules are enforced on others in the community that it's not fair except if you have something specific to make an exception. >> No, I think you're right there. And there is also in this case, you're also looking at the district, right? So, what has been allowed and what was been fair
for others in that district and what's been what's going to be fair for the homeowner in this in this unit, >> right? And we got a great explanation already twice about why there was a distinction and the neighbor was permitted. There was a particular circumstance in that case because it was
a staff error, >> but I'm not I'd like to address that later, but I don't see that here. >> Okay. And I would like to let the pre the applicant do their presentation in the regular order. >> Yeah. But you know, this is basically back to where we were before. >> It's not the applicant's fault. This is
the fault of his contractor. The contractor ordered these windows before the permit was issued. Yes. And he's putting the contra he's putting the owner in a very bad situation. In other words, he's making the owner >> the bad guy. Okay. And at the last meeting, it was my understanding that
they were going to change the windows and that the window company had agreed to that. >> I heard that comment. You said you were willing to replace just the window. You could keep the frame at the last meeting. >> And and so this is >> that was the window. It wasn't you specifically. >> That was the vendor. We
>> the vendor the vendor agreed to that. >> Yes. >> I I will just note this is a state approved vendor. Uh the things they say they do and the things they do are not exactly the same. And so I am going to pause it for you guys that if you deny
I'm going to be forced to sue the vendor. I know they said yes, but that's the like salesperson project manager. You've been speaking to the owner who's sort of reneged on that and then has since come around. Uh but I don't I don't think it's obviously the case. I also know uh getting them to put the
muttons in, which honestly is so easy, has been pulling teeth. I mean, you don't the amount of time that we're spending away from our jobs and our kids dealing with like the pettiest thing, it's unbelievable. So, while yes, like it is possible to be remedied, I really
don't >> but that's not the issue. >> Well, if I may, the the violation that gets cited gets cited to the property owner, >> we spend a lot of time in this board making up for contract. I mean where this a gentleman like this comes before us because his contractor has violated
the code and violated the permit. So >> happens quite >> I think it's very disturbing you know that this gentleman has to be here now for the third time on this because this is the third request for the COA >> and they're the ones being affected by the violation. >> If you'll excuse me please his
contractor is not here >> and so this is the fault of his contractor. >> Mr. Sure. Can we have the applicant make the presentations? >> Uh, it's good to see you guys again. >> Please introduce yourself again, please. >> My name is Harris Lavine from 405
Visaya. Camila, my wife couldn't be here. She's on a work trip. Uh, this is, by the way, a photo with the blinds up. I took a more flattering, less reflective photo. Um, so as you guys all know, um, we're a family of four, uh, two kids under four. We bought our house
in 2021. This is our first home. We love this home. We love French Normandy Village. We bought a historic home on purpose. We're committed to preserving and the home and its character. Uh, as I mentioned before, we put a roof on it uh with a permit. When we did that, you
guys gave us very clear instructions about how to go go about it and do it and we did it right. Uh, Michael, uh, you know, this like who is at fault? the vendor is certainly at fault, but there are lots of other, you know, this is a a sort of uh a perfect storm. I mean,
there's I have concerns with the state. Uh I have concerns with this process. I have concerns like all of it has, you know, there's just a lot of blame and actually my own like I should have paid more attention and I should have, you know, I I just didn't think this was going to be as complicated. Anyway, I just want to note also our case is the
opposite of 1021 Hardy. We're doing everything we can. We're putting tons of money into our home. Um, so what we did, we applied for and received something called the My Safe Florida Home Program to install Hurricane Impact Glass. Uh,
we wouldn't, we've been wanting to do the windows for years. We we weren't going to do it and and we got approved for that and so we did it. Uh, we hired a vendor from the state of Florida's approved vendor list. Uh, perhaps incorrectly assuming that that means you'd get a good vendor. Um, we
also made several attempts during permitting to get guidance from the historic preservation board uh office uh before installation and did not receive any response. Uh, because our home is a contributing resource in French Normandy Village, we
intentionally chose the same brand as our neighbors. I have a neighbor here, Nancy, who also has ESW windows. We chose the same frame color, bronze. Uh even though our our direct neighbor, the former house of Dolly McIntyre, they have white frames, all the new people
have bronze frames, so we want bronze frames. And then all of the other houses have tint. Uh and so all with permits, all with approval from this board. And so I I've condensed this because we've said this now three times. Uh, clear
glass is inconsistent with the other homes on Visaya that have hurricane impact glass. So, 400 Visaya, which is across the street from us. This was the house that the permit was approved in 2020. They have low E. Uh, it's the same exact low E as the one we have. So, also
SB70 401 Visaya, uh, which was done in 2013. That's Nancy. On her permit, it says brown tint on the windows. And so, uh, but you'll see there also the same color frames and same same, uh, brand. 48 Viskaya. I don't have any information, but it looks like ESW
windows with brown tint. Uh, and then 416 Viskaya. So, this is not the this is also low E. This was done. I don't know the date, but this is Sally Jude's home, who I know took this issue extremely seriously. Uh, but also Low E on the same street.
And so, two with Loie, two with Bronte. The other homes on the street have not installed hurricane impact glass. So this is what those windows look like. That's 404 Visaya, 409 Visaya, and 413 Viskaya. Um, so comparable approvals demonstrate
consistent treatment of similar properties within the same context. Uh, and we share detailed evidence and I have it in the appendex if you guys want to see that. Uh, one note that I also want to make is the windows are a marked improvement from what was there before. So if you look on the left, the windows
were in bad shape. They were also single hung, which is not what you guys would approve today. So we brought that up to code uh to look like casement. Uh also I was when I was seeing the drawings from 1926, this was actually a horse stable. So there weren't even windows here. Uh
anyway, and there also I think the most important thing is their hurricane impact which preserves the home. Uh we've had a lot of support from neighbors. I have a neighbor here. We've had neighbors at every meeting. uh this quote from Olga who is uh living in Dal in the the house we share a wall with in
Dolly's former home. Uh we're a family that is all about historic preservation. If you see this house, it does not look like it's tinted in any way. Unless you get photos from the right angle. Uh that's my my ad. If you see this house in person, it absolutely looks like the spirit of the moment. I very much
support that this be approved. The spirit of historic preservation is for technology to go improving and embracing it when it's better for the house to have protection from hurricanes and from heat. I would also note uh Visaya has it's all concrete. There's no trees. It gets really really hot. Uh had there
been a glass that had helped us keep our houses cooler, it would have been used. Uh we did do finally, we were supposed to do this for the last meeting, but like I said, it's pulling teeth. Uh the muttons have been uh corrected to match
the approved drawings there. We're still dealing with them because there's like workmanship issues. Uh staff inspection confirmed compliance with the muttons. So the windows have now passed all inspections except this one one issue pending your approval. Uh like I said
earlier, we only did the windows because of the my Florida home program. The state will refund us $10,000 of the more or less $22,000 we've already spent. We must request our final inspection before August 16th, 18 months after approval. We've asked multiple times. There are no
more extensions. Today is August 14th. We have two days to resolve this matter uh and request our final inspection or we lose $10,000. Uh I know you guys know this, but for context, it's been nine months since the windows were installed. Uh so nine
months of the 18 months has just been talking about whether we could, you know, uh and losing $10,000 because this wasn't res resolved in time isn't undue hardship equivalent to a year of property tax, two years of homeowners
insurance, three months of child care, five months of healthcare. We've already paid a $1,500 fee uh to PE and and denial may require us to sue our vendor, which is an outcome that is expensive. No one wins and is certainly unlikely to
make us whole even in the event that we win. Uh we respectfully ask for approval. Uh we understand the role of historic preservation, but I'm asking uh to not be denied advances in technology, but also practicality. We love our home.
We've tried to follow the rules. uh you know, we request for the the COA uh in keeping with our neighborhood um and the spirit of preservation. And then I am really serious that in the event that you guys want to establish standards,
we'd love to volunteer because it also annoys us too that everybody has different windows and different color glass and different paint and whatnot. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Can I ask him a question? Um, yes. Go ahead.
>> Thank you. Um, did you say that the windows in the homes that have the clear glass do not have impact windows? >> On Visaya, the only homes without a tint
are the ones that do not have impact windows. >> That's very interesting. So the ones that have impact glass are the ones that have uh the tints on them. >> All four. Yeah. >> And then if you go around the bend, they
have uh two of the three have tint uh or reflectivity. One actually has low E. And then if you go around the other side, I believe they don't have >> That's interesting. So, so staff has approved ever since the impact last staff has
approved uh tinted windows for this. Is that true? >> For the neighboring buildings. >> Yes. >> Well, if there if there's if the others aren't impact, >> right, those are the ones that we had talked about before that I think Cara mentioned that some of those approvals
were over 10 years old and that some of the original products only had tinted as an option. And truly, even today, we have arguments with window manufacturers of what their clear is. And their clear is a very, very light gray. And we've asked them to bring us product samples, and they write clear, and this is clear,
and your thing says clear, and then the windows get installed, and there's always some sort of light gray shading to it to meet some sort of, you know, light transmitt. >> I'll just clarify. Thank you. >> Okay. Any other board member? If not,
we'll open it up to the audience. Okay, >> I do have some questions. >> Okay, Miss Dick, >> I just was I was reading over all the documents again and I just had a >> um a concern because I know it's in the prior records. Um >> we didn't do
>> we were going to open it but J asked. >> Yeah, thank you. Um public record is not closed. Yeah, there there I know that um in your presentation and in the prior meetings there was a lot of discussion about problems with the um historic staff because you were trying to reach out to get guidance and you didn't do
it. I didn't get the guidance that you needed. So one of my questions is so in September October when you were reaching out making all these phone calls what actually were you going were you asking what was the information that you needed in that moment to be provide you with
guidance? I I mean, we were trying to talk to someone to figure out what to do and what's the way to move forward. >> Okay. Because >> I don't I don't remember >> because my point is it wouldn't seem to make any difference because you'd already ordered the windows. Were you going to then tell preservation officers
that you had a window that you now saw was non-conforming or why would that have meant that that staff >> our preservation officers were doing a worse job than the people that helped you with the roof? >> That was the that was My complaint is
that I never heard any direction from anybody at any point until after the windows were installed. And so >> quite a a time afterwards, right? It wasn't until the inspection came out. >> Correct. >> But this is a problem that I'm having. So I'm looking back.
>> I think if I Okay, I'm going to try and My question probably would have been like, why is our permit not being approved? Like what is I would have that's >> fair. That's very fair. So then really I just want to make sure the record's clear. there was nothing inappropriate done by a lack of response or fault on
the part of our historic preservation officers because that was kind of the thought. But I have other questions. So I'm looking back at February 20th, 2024 when you signed your proposal with the window people and your signatures on this proposal. In that moment, you had
to put down a deposit to have the windows ordered. And according to the testimony of your window um representative, manufacturer, I think it was even at the first meeting, he testified that you were the ones pushing and wanted to have the windows ordered
timely so that you could qualify for the um for the funds. So in other words, you knew the windows were being ordered back in 2024, right? I knew the uh
so I definitely remember wanting to get this done with 18 months. >> Uh I am not a windows professional. I am not a home repair professional. I wanted to move forward. The question of a deposit, I assume that's standard every time you sign a contract. Every contract
I've ever signed for housework, they asked for money upfront. Uh >> I guess the point >> I don't I didn't think anything was being done unoured. I know they ordered the windows, uh, but I didn't think that was like inappropriate. I said, >> you know, what do you got? They were like, we I think what they said was, we
got engineering. We're going to go ahead and order the windows. >> Okay. So, I just don't want there to be a wrong impression somehow that you did not even know the windows were being ordered and then I'm going to get to the actual type of the windows. >> Okay. >> Okay.
>> M feel like I'm crossing. I can recall I don't we don't have the minutes but I remember the window manufacturer saying that it is their standard practice that as soon as they receive engineering approval they order the windows. That doesn't mean that the applicant may or
may not have been asking to move it forward but I I seem to remember that. I don't know if we want to look at records but >> I remember that as well. That's correct. But they but he also made this this other specific statement and um >> I just think it goes to knowledge.
Um, I have another question and I asked you this at I think the last hearing. I said prior to November because the idea that I was getting and I'm sure my fellow me board members were getting prior to November, I asked you did you have any idea that there was a problem
with the windows that they were non-conforming? And the answer was no. You had no information. You had no idea. Okay. So, I'm just going to talk to you about um the the permit site drawings. Well, this
is dated uh March 19th, 2024. And it says that the glass color is to be clear, no tint, no reflectivity. That was in March of 24 and you signed this document. Now, we asked uh somebody asked the window manufacturer, well, why
would you put that on here if that's not true and there was some comment about how well because that was what historic preservation would require. I guess my point is we didn't know that the windows had not been ordered until June and neither did staff, but you had to have known back back in March that the
windows were ordered and that it clearly said that it was going to be clear, no tint, no reflectivity. You signed this document in particular that states that um I have other docu another document
that you signed specifically and both of them one of them said that it was um based upon know this one the other permit that was from that was filed in February 20th you signed this one and it's notorized and
it specifically says under penalties of perjury and the city of Coral Gable's false claims and presentation ordinances. So, I have several documents that are indicating to me and looking at the prior testimony that you did know there was some sort of a problem with
the windows. And when you finally found out that there was an issue, which is established in October 21st, 2024, because you got the letter that said the same thing, no tint, no reflectivity. You didn't reach out to historic
preservation at that time and install the windows instead. So, just for you to understand, can you respond to all those concerns? >> Yeah. >> Well, I don't I don't remember. I didn't really pay tons of attention. I mean, that's >> the reality is we just the vendor brought over documents. I signed a bunch
of documents. Let's get the windows done. They're in line with what the neighbors were doing. Uh I now know about 10,000 times more about this than I did at the start. Uh and I it is honest to God, no, I didn't know
anything. Nobody told me what we were supposed to be doing because if somebody told us we would have done that. >> But when you got this at least when at least in October which is quite many many months before we were advised about the window installation in October you
knew because you got a letter a real clear letter. It wasn't to the window installer stating that these were the conditions. No reflectivity clear tinted. So >> I don't think I >> and and you know >> I didn't pay attention.
>> There's there's you can understand our problem because where I'm coming from is as a matter of law when you sign these documents under penalties of perjury. You can't say I didn't read it. You can't say I didn't know. You have a you have a duty to make sure to the best of
you can that the statements are true. And it was very clear and sorry no pun intended in all these documents. So that's what makes it harder for me and also based upon our requirements. So I'm I'm look and I really took issue with you saying that you followed city
guidelines and then were accusing our staff officers of somehow not doing something right because had you reached out to them multiple opportunities? >> I I did. We I have the call records from T-Mobile >> in September and October. >> Yeah.
>> Okay. Why didn't you reach out to them before then? before you put down the money and said, "Yeah, hurry up and order these windows because we're going to lose our our funding." >> I don't know. >> Having having reviewed permits quite
often, I will tell you that the majority of our contact is with a window company and not a homeowner because they assume that the window company knows what they're doing, is taking care of it, >> and they are an authorized >> represent. That's I mean to be fair that's the most of the time we deal with window companies because the homeowner
is like I like these windows. Get me these windows. Do your thing. So whether or not he knew what he knew, what he didn't know, I don't know. But we were in contact with his window company and I would be okay with that except for the representation
um that somehow something wrong was being done um which it wasn't. I just want to ask you then, is there any way that you could just work with your installer and have them replace just the glass and keep your
frames? Is that not an option? You're saying you would have to go to a lawsuit to do that? >> I think it's likely we go to lawsuit. I think it's a certainty that I lose $10,000. Uh >> if I may, I think I would also have some big concern with that because these
windows are usually built as a unit and taking them apart to meet that impact >> like um requirement just seems like a nightmare in a few years. However, they put in that new glazing is not going to be the same way as when it's manufactured in the shop >> and how and that's going to create
problems with leaking and everything else that can happen. >> So we're looking at replacing. >> So really it would be I think a concern for us and then what kind of an Does that take it's another nightmare for you guys I understand to get the installation if it's the full unit or just the glass but really I think for
the impact rating I there seems to be some there might be some issues there too. >> Okay. So you so do you believe in this circumstance then there was an error made when the certificate of of approval the second one >> wait I'm sorry
>> I'm sorry I'm confusing myself >> in the staff report that recommends against approving the certificate of appropriateness >> the no I'm not saying that there was a mistake made again I wasn't part of that application I'm here kind of picking up the pieces and understanding where we
are I think that with the recommendations that have been made and the efforts of the homeowners Do I find this to be a detriment to the historic district? No. I think that the the the mutton replacement is a big factor. This is an improvement from what was there before. And again, like the guidelines
say, this is something that's going to be replaceable over the future and not did not um directly affect his original historic fabric on the structure. >> Well, then that would be contrary to what the staff reports. then says as preservation officer then I will make
this I'm on the record I I swore myself in then yes >> okay so the testimony the high reflectivity is not an issue >> it's a case by case basis >> that adversely affects the historic fabric >> of the building
>> if you I think that you want me to say a yes or no answer but I don't think it is a yes or no for these types of applications we look at them very thoroughly and we have to look at them on a casebyase basis Right. So, in this case, is it the ideal installation that we would have
preferred? No, it's not. Is um did the did the window product say clear and a homeowner saw clear and was like, "Okay, does it say that it's low E?" Does the homeowner know that low E doesn't mean that it's clear? They might not understand that low E has a tint to it.
So, I think going after that, the homeowner saying, "Well, you sign this. It says clear, but it also says low E." you know, they're I think there's a layman then versus the the manufacturers who we deal with or the window installers that come in as the professionals to kind of represent these homeowners that we're dealing with a lot
and they just kind of want to get it through, right? So, they come in and say, "Well, look, we did what historic said and here's the paperwork and here homeowner, we did it and find this and >> yeah, I I understand. I guess just in the prior testimony, I just found some
of the um statements a little confusing >> and I didn't appreciate and I didn't appreciate um some of the statements that were made that didn't seem entirely truthful. >> Yeah, I think there's some kind of back and forth about when staff was contacted, who and where, and when, you
know, when there was premeings or not premeings, there was a big discussion about that, too. Um, and like Cara had just mentioned, we we're a small staff. So when we have one application for windows and we have an applicant and it's, let's say, a window company, our main point of contact comes from them
because they're the applicant. There's who's going to make the repairs to the drawings. They're the ones going to make the corrections. Then if we sometimes we have a homeowner that chimes in, oh, but wait, you took out the stained glass that I want out of this one. And then sometimes there's an attorney that they hired also because now the attorney is getting involved because this is taking too long. So there are times that we
have an application and there's four or five people representing one property and we have three staff working on reviews. So like Cara said, we kind of try to be consistent that our comments are going to in the system first of all. So Energ has it's all public. All of our
comments are there. Um, and then just keeping that line of communication that we know we're going to get what we need back, like the drawings and the corrections and the things because sometimes I could I may be able to say that to him, but then he has to go relay it to the, you know, this the window guy's going to come back and say, "Oh, wait. The homeowner said there was
corrections and then we're spending another hour with them." So, I think I understand that there's a little bit kind of like maybe some buffering of how the process happened. It wasn't It's been 18 months. No, >> long time. So I think we're kind of all refreshing our own memories from just
two months ago and again for you with having small children understanding kind of going through all of this. You're, you know, picking up the pieces and hope and you said you got a state, you know, approved contractor that you trusted because they were in that process and that's kind of what a lot of homeowners
do and then we're stuck dealing with that contractor because we understand that that's their representative. In your experience, have you had a lot of circumstances where they're absolutely false statements made in the permit >> by window installers or whoever?
>> Very consistently >> almost weekly. >> I would say within our applications and and maybe Cara, you review more plan, you do more administrative plan review than I do, but >> excuse me. This is really about >> about a permit violation, right? It's a question. You know, let's let's cut the
extraneous stuff out of here. you know, it's focus on what the issue is, please. You know, it's a permit violation. We don't need I mean, I think it's been explained perfectly clear. You know, this is a violation of the permit. There was a legal permit that was taken as Mr.
N has said, and the question is is will the contractor live up to his agreement and follow the permit? That's the question. It's not whether the homeowner, you know, has four children or anything. It's this is a very simple violation. Okay. And I think that's what
Miss D is trying to say. >> Please stay on tone. >> I'll have questions at a later point. Thank you. >> Okay. Other board members. >> I have a comment. If I were the preservation officer, this would never
have come to the board. >> Thank you. >> I would have just signed off on the inspection. I would have said something to the owner. I would have reamed the uh company out, but the situation that he is in is not fair. And particularly
since we're now finding out that all of the impact windows uh that were put in there are consistent to each other. They all are tinted in some way. Uh this we need we need guidelines. When this is all over, I'm going to make a motion that this um
area, this village needs to have guidelines and If there were guidelines in place and this happened, then I would be absolutely in favor of denying this. But I I just think it's wrong for us through the chair. >> Okay. Kelly,
>> I if there were guidelines, they weren't followed anyway. And I mean, there's three different documents that clearly state in uh that this is not approved. It's not appropriate. And even if there were guidelines for this district, the windows were ordered even before the
comments were made. So, I don't see how having guidelines would have changed this outcome. >> It's having the information, I think, available to property owners and to the public. And sometimes it fully gets ignored and sometimes it doesn't and sometimes it's helpful to have that link
on our website and something referred to >> through the chair. This we don't have guidelines. So, if we can stick to the case in front of us that would be great and then we could talk about other stuff later if you don't >> because it doesn't sound like we're getting answers. We're just asking questions. >> That's right. I don't know if you want to move to public or you want to come
back or >> I want to make sure that there that the board has has adequate time to question this. Mrs. Miss Ever >> I think so >> make a comment but it's it's you just rejected it. Um because um you know I as
I've said before I know this village very well and it every house is a different color. You know, I felt we have seven villages that make us so they're they're just so important to this city and I just have always felt
that that the French Normandy village u just doesn't look like the other ones, >> you know, it it it's and as you round the bend, those are much newer. Those were built what in the 80s or something. But uh the inconsistencies of these properties is very apparent and I'm
sorry that there wasn't a guideline for everybody there. These are the windows. This is the color paint. >> Okay. >> Now we have public comment. We have a lot to do. >> Yeah. Is there any other board member that wishes us to to to ask a question
at this time? If not, we'll open it up to the public. Okay. All right. Is there any person here that wishes to speak? All right. Please come up. Right. And you've been sworn in. >> Yes.
>> Please state over here. Please, please state your name and address. >> My name is Nancy Olan. I live at 401 Visaya Avenue. I'm Harris and uh Camila's neighbor. I've dealt with Miss Spain before and I've dealt with Cara before because I put my windows in in
2013. And in your point, Michelle, about fairness, if you want to be fair about all this, then we have to go down to the fact that when I got my windows done in 2013, I had to come in front of the board myself because my contractor could
not do it. I if I had known I would have brought you the file and you could see how many times they have been in front of the board. So nothing has changed from 2013 to 2025. I don't know how to put in impact windows. And I can tell
you another thing that as a senior citizen and someone on a fixed income, if I could have a higher efficiency, it might electric bill go down more. I would have done it, you know. And like Donna said, uh, I was unaware of any of these things. If I could get a car
that's going to give me higher gas mileage, I'm gonna buy it. And that's really what we're trying to do. And to what Marlin's point is, any any day of the week, you can drive down Visaya Allesio and you're going to find camera crews because everyone loves the charm
of the village. They love that I have a purple door, that Tay across the street from me has a red door, that uh Dolly who just passed away, you know, had planters in front of her house. That Sally Jude has copper windows. That
Sally Jude has uh solar panels on her house. I mean, she has a pool. Nobody else has a pool. So, there is no consistency in that village. But what there is is there are people that love their homes, that take care of their homes, they want to have a future here
in the Gables, and that beautify that. and that we have the most characteristic beautiful villages of all the villages. >> Thank you. There any other person that wish to speak in favor of or opposition to this matter? Okay. Hearing none, we'll close the
public portion of this and come back to the board. Bo board. >> Mr. Chair, would have a comment or question. >> Mr. of plans. >> Some um for the board, one of the things that unfortunately makes it difficult for the homeowner is the process of
getting here. But the best thing about this process is the applicant submits an application, staff reviews, decides to either approve it or move it toward the board with a
recommendation. It is not staff's job to decide what to do with this case. It is the board's job to decide what to do with this case. And there are eight, nine of us here with different backgrounds and different expertise and different understanding of
things. So it is incumbent on each of us to take a look at this on a case-byase basis of this specific project with our point of view and give our opinion. So any sort of thought as to it must be done this way, then we don't need a
board. Um, but we have a board for specifically cases that staff has decided need our attention. So I'm glad that we're able to get the attention. Unfortunately, better once than three times, but hopefully today will be the day. Um, I've spoken at the other two
times, but I want to put it on the record for this one since it is denovo. the I think everyone clearly understands this was a violation. We I think everyone clearly understands that the procedure and the application process and all the things that happened on
paper were not done incredibly well. What I think we have now because it is an after the fact request is we have a building with windows in it in real life. So now it is before the board to decide what do we do with the building
with windows in real life. So we can go back to paper or we can look at what we have. Um my point I think is the and I think the historic preservation officer mentioned the difference between low E and clear is not clear to many people
and it's difficult and and I I I can't wait to have the debate on this day so that we can all have it. But in this particular case, um the fact that the applicant has changed the monton pattern, which is the most clear and obvious thing that you will notice as
far as the design, uh to something that is possibly a bit more um has a a bit variety to it as to how much reflectivity, 10, 20, 90%. I'm I studied this and I can't tell you the difference
between 60 and 70. I would have to do some more work on it. But I think if we can for this particular project because there is no other information like design guidelines which would be unbelievably great. um that we have a
case where we have a set of windows that if in this exact specific location with this exact specific neighbors at this exact specific time uh how would we like to treat this application? Uh and I just
want to remind my board members to please think of it in terms of that. And um I as is probably obvious I I commend the homeowner for making the changes to the window mutton pattern and I understand that clear is not LOI and
Louie is not clear but how much of a difference does that make? I think that's up for debate. >> Thank you Mr. Garcia's other members of the board. Mr. Silva um I just have I sort of agree with with Mr. Garcia Pon. I have four four kind of
points to go over. We did talk about this in the previous two meetings, so I'm going to be brief. Uh number one, I do think there was an egregious violation by the contractor. That's very clear. Um he ordered the windows before he had the permit, and even after he had the permit, he proceeded to install them
knowing that they were incorrect. So, that's a problem. Um, in terms of the general request by staff to have clear uh windows, if you if you would do me a favor and pull up that image that you took care of uh now in August.
Um, just so we all understand the reflectivity issue, right? >> Can you put the PowerPoint back up, please? >> So, in general, if this was It is staff's policy to request no low E and no reflectivity. And and that image
shows very clearly why. Um once it comes up, can you please put the PowerPoint back up on the screen? Yeah, I've got a So, so in that image when it comes up, you'll see that very clearly the the the the house on the
right, which is the one we're talking about, is is very very reflective. The the house on the left um is is clear glass, right? It's an older window. The m pattern is wrong, the windows are wrong, but the glass itself just feels more appropriate to the house, right? I
think that is why staff ask for these things, right? It's very clear to me. Um, in terms of can you get an efficiency in other ways, you can, right? There's insulated glass, there's other coatings that are less reflective. So, that you you can have your cake and eat it too, right? You can have the
clear glass and have another mode of energy efficiency. Um, and my fourth point is is dealing with this specific request in this specific historic district. Um, we are here now understanding that this thing was was
was done incorrectly. We are here now as an after the fact request. Um, the rest of the houses on this block are all tinted. Um, they all have low e coding. They all have tint of some sort. So looking at this thing as a district
um is is the one thing that sways me towards towards approval of this after the fact. understanding that this is again a very specific case in a specific district where kind of all the windows are are cycling together, right? So that when they cycle out the expectation is
that they'll be low E. Understanding now how how that affects the character of the building. Um so those are my four points. I guess we never got the image up there but but I think we all remember it. Is that accurate that all the other ones u I thought it was just a tinting
but not a lowi because I didn't see the high reflectivity in all those other windows the bronze ones. >> I'd have to go back and check. Um, I know that there were some the last set that was installed was probably um like five or six years ago and they and
as I mentioned at a previous meeting, they were allowed to be installed because the previous half of the house had been done in like 2013 when we had specified clear and they had installed something else and it was it was approved. So, there are some that are
reflective in the district as well. Miss Ever, >> just one question. Uh, does the city as a whole have um approved window vendors and unapproved? I mean, if Cara,
>> does the city have lists that people pick from? >> I think we should have a list of unapproved vendors. >> Well, that's what I'm saying. I mean, you know, I mean, if this if this is if this the problem with having something like that is that it changes, right? because maybe one installation is great
and then the next installation is terrible. >> And so we I I we tried that in city of New Orleans for replacement of wood windows and it was a disaster because one product worked one time and then the next contractor would put it in and it was installed incorrectly and but it's on your list and then they'd come to our
board and say but it's on your list. So it's really just a fine line. We do not want to >> show us what we're looking at. >> Sure. Sure. So that's the image on the left is the one I was referring to. So the the windows to the right, you can see they're very reflective, kind of a greenish tint. The ones to the left that
are kind of almost off the frame is clear glass, right? So So they they just feel more appropriate. >> But are >> all the way on the left? >> Yeah. Are the ones to the right, are those NY's are those the other >> That's the subject property. >> Oh, okay. >> Okay. Sorry.
>> Excuse me. Excuse me. >> You may not speak from the galley. You must have to, you know, the public is is closed. I'm sorry. Thank you. >> So, the windows on the left aren't impact just, you know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm just speaking about the glass itself.
>> You know, the crux of the question, ladies and gentlemen, is whether or not this is a violation of a permit. Okay. This is not about the glass. This is not about, you know, four children. And this is not about whether the city did not. It is very clear, you know, in the documentation that the permit was
violated and that the contractor violated this. And the problem that this board has is that this happens numerous times over and over again. And it puts the property owner in a terrible position. In other words, the property owner is here to defend someone who has
violated the permit. Someone who has broken the contract with him and them and is on the point of costing them a tremendous amount of money. That is the issue. There is no other issue here. There is no other issue here with that. >> Mr. Chairman,
>> no, it is not with you, Mr. to the chair, if I may ask the city attorney. Yeah. >> Is is that correct? Because that's not how I understand this. >> No. And Mr. Chair, just to clarify, the item before you today is a certificate of appropriateness for this property to install windows with low EV glass.
Initially, it had also been for a different mutton pattern, but the muttons have been now matched to the appropriate permit. So, the question before you today, and and I understand there's a background, and there's questions about permit violations, but um this is not the code enforcement board. So today, what's what's before
you today is whether or not the low E is appropriate on this home as installed. Um, contrary >> contrary to the permit that was issued and the approval that was initially given to by staff, whether or not this board feels it's appropriate to give a
certificate of appropriateness for this low E glass with this current mutton pattern. Um, that's my understanding of the application that's before you today. um just the color of glass as a certificate of appropriateness. >> That's correct.
>> Thank you, M. >> Can I make a comment on that? So, I want to follow up on some of Mr. Silva's comments because I I think they were well stated. And first of all, I want it on the record that this is not about energy efficiency. Historic preservation
and windows can be absolutely in line with energy efficiency. So there are windows that can be constructed that will be energy efficient. So that shouldn't be a consideration. So I'm thinking about is something like art. So perhaps one person might think the
muttons make it look acceptable. But I really feel to me the main issue is the reflectivity. And to me the reflectivity is really inappropriate on a building of this age. And I worry something that Mr. Silva said before, you know, just because a mistake was made in in one
sense doesn't mean moving forward we should repeat that mistake. And I really feel that to continue with the historic in integrity of this building that you have to start somewhere and under these circumstances and with the background, I just feel it would be more appropriate
to have the clear glass. >> Board members, is there any further discussion on this? Anybody want to further appine? Okay. If not, we'll close the discussion like to move for a motion. Miss D, would you like to make a motion?
>> I can try. Okay, let me see. I'm sorry. I apologize. Yes, I would like to make a motion based upon the applicable ordinances, the requirements of section
8-106, and the fact that we do have some detailed facts in um the staff report, which I believe support um my motion. I'm making a motion to deny the after the fact design approval for the installation of impact resistant windows
and doors on the property located at 405 Gaya Avenue, the French village of Coral Gables, and to deny the issuance of a special certificate of appropriateness based upon um the unique facts in this case
and the high reflectivity of the windows, which I believe does destroy the historic integrity of the property. We have a motion. Do we have a second? >> I'll second for discussion. >> Okay, we have a second by Miss Shield.
>> All right, we have a motion in a second. When you call in roll, please. >> Miss Alvarez, >> no. >> Mr. Garcia Ponds. >> No. >> Miss Spain, >> no.
>> Miss Ever. >> Miss D? >> Yes. >> Miss uh Miss Shield? >> Yes. >> Mr. Silva? >> No. >> Mr. Maxwell? >> Yes. Motion passes. Three to four.
>> Excuse me, Mr. Maxwell. >> Motion fails. >> Motion fails. Excuse me, Mr. M. Yeah, motion fails 3 to 5. Is there another motion that someone would like to make? >> Um, I'm happy to make the motion. A motion to approve the after the fact
design approval for the installation of impact resistant windows and doors on the property located at 405 Visaya Avenue >> and and approve the issuance of the special certificate of appropriateness.
>> I'll second by Mr. I have a second >> second by Miss >> Call the RO please. Miss Shield, >> no. >> Miss Alvarez, >> yes.
>> Miss Denise, >> yes. >> No. >> Miss Spain, >> yes. >> Mr. Garcia Pon, >> yes. >> Miss Ever. >> Yes. >> Mr. Silva? >> Yes.
>> And Mr. Maxwell? >> No. passes. >> All right. Next item. >> Mr. Maxwell, if I could um m Mr. Chair, if I could interrupt for a moment. We're having some technical issues with Zoom. Do you mind if we take a brief recess so
that we could get IT staff in here to make sure that we have the Zoom um appropriate for the next two items where we have members um who will be speaking on the Zoom. >> Thank you very much. We'll take a brief >> recess. discussion.
>> No, I forgot his first meeting. But I want to say thank you for your service. Marlin knows I'm very just thank you for your service and >> thank you. Thank you for coming. Yes,
>> I saw the last two meetings to catch up on these items to be more educated for you today, but I appreciate everything you guys did. So take the moment. >> Recording stopped. I guess. >> Yeah. I know.
Because right now I have the speakers right now. The speakers are right now set to um the speakers are currently set to the uh HD audio driver for display. Test one, two. Test one, two.
>> Test one, two. Test one, two. >> No, I think it's just me. Alex. >> Audio check. Two, three, four. Audio check. Five, six, seven. Audio check. Three, four, five. >> Audio check. Four, five, six.
>> Audio check. Four, five, six. I'm trying to play through the speakers. The only other way I can do this is changing the audio to test. Three, four, five, six. >> Audio check. Three, four, five. >> I'm coming into the room.
What would you do? Happy. >> Audio check. 6 7 8. >> Audio check. Audio check. I am literally raising as high as I can. >> Please stop recording. >> Come on.
I'm literally >> Oh, wait. There we go. There. Now you can adjust. There we go. Galaxy >> audio check. Two, three, four. >> Audio check. Three, four, five. >> Audio check. Two. Three. Four.
There is nobody. My son keeps asking me because he got and two years ago earlier in the year. >> So here he has a daughter. Yeah, he would have made
he would have done the same Hello. >> You violated the contract. I can't get this. You're going to owe me the price of the $10,000. >> Of course they were. I know they were. They will probably
>> Mr. Chair, >> you know, >> but you know, you don't want to be mean. I don't want to be mean. >> Mr. Maxwell, I think. >> Are we ready? >> Let's get this show on the road. >> Okay. All right. >> How are you,
>> All right, guys. I understand we have the video ready. The zoom is is link is hooked up. Okay, let me introduce the thing the next item here and we'll move this. Do we have a local historical
designation? Case file LD LHD 2025- Z005 consideration the local historic designation of the property at 10005 South Alhambor Circle legally described as lots 5657 on the west 25 ft of lot 55
block 241 Coral Gables Riviera section part 12 platbook 28 page 35 public records Miami Dade County presentation Thank you. Uh just to clarify, this item is not a presentation by historic staff.
This was an appeal of a historic significance determination that was issued in April. Um the uh applicant appealed the decision and submitted a designation report for the property. So um this is not a presentation from us. Good afternoon everyone
>> and I would like >> Carellia please state your name >> for the record. My name is Kelia Martinez Carbonel and I am here representing the uh president I'm president of the historic preservation association of Coral Gables and yes this
is an appeal um of a determination letter that was uh tendered by staff and uh first I'd like to um read just a brief quote
from our dear Dolli and she says, "We are ready to do all we can to help save places that are part of our community and sense of place and belonging. We must speak up for those
silent structures that we treasure. We do this by attending government meetings, writing letters and emails to legislators at the local, state, and national level. and making phone calls. We do this by
keeping our eyes and ears open to possible threats to historic structures and speaking up as necessary. We do this by helping research and document buildings. We do this by caring enough to take
action. And that's what we're here to do. And just for the record, I will uh quantify our our organization. Uh the historic preservation association was established in 1991.
The group's mission is to promote the importance of historic resources and their preservation. The Historic Association of Coral Gable started out as a host a historic homeowners association of Coral Gables
and routinely provided owners of local historic houses with a resource list of providers. In 2008, the group embarked on a new direction and embraced a new mission prompting a name change, the Historic
Preservation Association of Coral Gables. In over three decades, HPACG has achieved outstanding success in historic preservation efforts. In carrying out its mission, HPACG has
effectively communicated the value of historic preservation to its membership. Through its promotional activities, HPACG has exhibited leadership in issues of importance to historic preservation and has established itself as one of the
leaders in statewide preservation advocates or advocacy. I will now read into the record the support letter of Dr. David McKini. You all have that. I know that. But um just for just for the record.
Okay. So, regarding 1005 South Alhambor Circle, Coral Gables, Florida, this is from Dr. David McKini, architectural historian. And um you know, in in his estimation, the residence is an example
of the colonial revival. And as reported the Miami Herald and outlined in the report, the style was prevalent in South Florida and represented a specific mindset that informed residential construction. In addition, the architect's treatment
of classical grammar shows the influence of mid-century modern that minimized ornamentation and emphasized proportions. These characteristics make the residents representative of midcentury residential architecture in
South Florida. You also have his CV and um I'm sure you probably all have reviewed that. Uh at this time um what I'd like to do is
introduce um our by Zoom uh Dr. Brett Gillis. Is he on? He will be the one going through the uh the report. Obviously, it's not going to be the whole report. He's gonna just
make sure that you all have um you know the the parts that >> we'd like you to um to emphasize and um and again hopefully you've read all this material uh beforehand.
It if you could please assist in getting Mr. Gillis on the screen so he can be sworn in and provide his testimony to the um board. Thank you. >> I'm not sure. I believe it's Mr. Gillis and Miss Carbonell. Perhaps you can verify who it who the person is who
needs to be. >> Hello. Can you hear me? >> Yes. Um, we may need to adjust the volume a little bit, but um, we can hear you. >> Okay. It's not allowing me to start my video. It's saying you cannot start your video because the host has disabled.
>> One moment. We'll make sure we give you access to show your video. >> What? Mr. Gillis, can you hear me? >> Yes, I hear you. >> Will you please raise your right hand to be sworn? Do you swore affirm the testimony you're about to give should be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> Yes. >> Thank you. >> Okay. So, the presentation is not showing on my screen here. Um, not sure why that's happening, but do you have the PDF up of the local historic designation report?
>> It's not showing. >> We have it, but it's not on the screen. >> If we could please put up the presentation again, we could take off, Mr. Gillis. >> Okay, I'll start while you work on that. So, this is the local historic ation report for 105 South Alhamra Circle in
Coral Gables. The property original permit number is 11852. Originally permitted in 1953. The architect was Tyrish Trip and the builder was Robert Scarbor. I'll go ahead and read the um summary statement of significance and then just
go over some of the key points in the report and then of course if anybody has any questions, please let me know at the end. But I'll just summarize so we're not here all night. developed as a primarily old Spanish and Mediterranean inspired city in the 1920s. The vast majority of the early buildings in Coral Gables were designed in these styles.
The devastating composite of the great hurricane of 1926, the stock market crash of 29, and the great depression brought an end to the great Florida land boom of the 1920s, which quashed many of founder George Merrick's dreams, especially for the Riviera section where this property is located, which he
acquired relatively late in the boom, and that was to connect the landlocked areas of early development in the north gables um to the sea via complex network of canals and waterways. Construction virtually came to a halt by 1931 with almost no houses being constructed. The
New Deal did bring about a slight uptick in the construction in the late 1930s and early 1940s, but this was curtailed by America's entry into World War II in 1941. And by 42, building efforts were diverted almost entirely to that port effort, once again resulting in almost
no new houses being constructed. Then in 1945 with the postwar optimism that created a growing economy and a robust building boom in the 1960s which surpassed even the original great Florida land boom of the 1920s in terms of construction. Changing sensibilities
resulted in a departure from the predominantly Mediterranean theme of the city and most of the grand residences that were constructed after the war on prominent arteries and waterways were designed in the colonial revival of neocclassical styles. So that was a significant departure from the early development of the city. U this
rekindled the charming nostalgia of both America and Fort Gable's earliest structures and these stately residences that were constructed after the war reflected the improving economy and upwardly mobile lifestyle. The single family residence at 105 South El Pra lovingly dubbed Villa Ionia for
its iconic ionic inspired entrance was designed by architect Tyrus Trip and built in the neocclassical style in the 1950s. It's one of the few visual reminders in the Riviera section of type of elaborate residences that were planned but never realized by founder George Merrick in the Mediterranean
style. But later after the war, of course, these residences did come about just in the prevailing architectural trends of that era, the neocclassical and colonial revival period. Architect Tyrus strips detailed plans for the residents clearly specify the use of concrete beams and columns for
the porch, a white cement shingle tile roofing, widely overhanging eaves, and for lime treatment of the brick L and pilers in mitigating the strong sun and diverting heavy precipitation. These specifications are subtropical adaptations of a neocclassical style to the South Florida environment that
wouldn't typically be found on other neocclassical houses in the country. 105 South Alhhamra Circle is significance for is significant for its historical, cultural and architectural contributions to the historic fabric and built environment of the city and as part of the quaint collection of
resources that captures the spirit of the era in which it was constructed. This residence portrays our history and sense of place over time. It is a valuable non-renewable historic and environmental resource. Moving on to page three, I believe it was mentioned earlier in the meeting.
Coral Gables is a certified local government. Um as part of that and we talk about the environment includes the natural and built environments. Um it's clearly stated in our material for the city of Coral Gables that the built environment reflects the beliefs, values, and creative expressions and
technical capacity at a place in time in history. So um historic preservation seeks to conserve the structures and spaces that tell the community's story over time. As a certified local government, we are required to review the criteria and
associate the preservation standards across the board, not just for one time period. That's why as part of our register of historic places, we have not only the old Spanish and Mediterranean buildings, but we also have um many other styles, art deco, modern structures,
colonial revival, neocclassical minimal traditional and so on. Moving on to page four, we have the location map of the property with a pin at the subject property location and and the aerial photo of the property from
the 2019 real estate listing. Page five shows the progression of the map of Coral Gables over time starting with 1921 when the first maps were being developed and it shows where the rivier section was added added much later in
the boom close to the hurricane of 1926. Moving on to pages six and seven. Um that's basically the background information for the city of Coral Gables. Um I will just read the last paragraph of that. The postwar prosperity falling triumph in war in
1945 created extreme optimism in almost everything including building a booming economy and an unprecedented building boom that reigned through the 1960s. So by the 1960s most of the Riviera section was built out. Uh there are a few grand and elaborate residences that were built
primarily in the colonial revival neocclassical styles on prominent streets and waterways, but ultimately the majority of the homes in the Riviera section were of the mass-produced ranch typology. And of course, not all of the originally
built homes are still extinct today. Moving on to page eight is the ownership history. This residence was originally commissioned in 1953. by Mr. and Mrs. John C. Williams and it has changed hands several times over the years.
Moving on to page nine is the criteria for designation in the city of Coral Gables. Uh property must meet at least one of the criteria. This property meets four of them. Historical, cultural significance. Criter criteria number four exemplifies the historical, cultural, political, economic, or social
trends of the community. Architectural significance criteria and two that's portrays the environment in an era of history characterized by one or more distinctive architectural styles and embodies those distinguishing characteristics of an architectural style period or method of construction.
Also, architectural significance criterion contains elements of design, detail, materials or craftsmanship of outstanding quality or which represent a significant innovation or adaptation of the South Florida environment. Moving on to page 10 is basically a
review of the architectural, historical, and cultural significance. And then some photos, follow on page 11, we have George Washington's Mount Vernon, which um was constructed in pinewood, but it was carved and rusticated to look like
stone. Then on uh an image of a $2 bill is shown with Thomas Thomas Jefferson and on Verso the Montichello. Some other examples, um, period examples, the White House, of course, and the Grand Hotel, the largest
porch in the world. Bringing it back to home to Coral Gables, page 13, we have the oldest house in Coral Gables, featuring a neocclassical inspired front porch. We can note that the odd number of posts on the front porch, there's five, which would be atypical for a high style
example like we're dealing with with the 105 South Alhamra Circle. Um, which is, you know, just giving this as some background information. Of course, the the Mod Black cottage also has references in its design of the um
colonial revival, but it's was originally a stable, so I didn't include that here since um we're looking primarily at single family homes. And of course on page 14, Coral Gable's house or now known as America House. Um this was a a design largely attributed
to um >> Althia Fink Merrick and of course the earliest and finest home in the backwoods of Miami at the time. Moving on to page 15 is some examples of
the time period where this house was built. This was from 1939 talking about a modern adaptation of colonial architecture and also the influences of the colonial revival period on fashion and design across the board at the time. Um in this example right in the center
of the photo we have an example um of a lady's dress. At the bottom there's a clipping from the Miami Herald referencing golf and tying that into colonial revival period. Moving on to page 16, we have some more examples of the Miami area showing the
trend of the period towards the colonial revival away from the Mediterranean style of architecture. Um, at the bottom is the Florida governor's home, which received much praise and press, obviously. Um, page 17, this is from my scrapbook.
It's a a postcard from the period from the 1940s of 6915 Granada Boulevard. that's just a few blocks away from this property during the 1920s. Of course, the majority of the postcards were featuring colonial revival and Spanish style architecture and design. So, this
is a huge departure where the photographs and postcards that were being sent around the world at that time featured colonial revival and neocclassical. Moving to page 18, neocclassical is still referenced in popular culture with Estee Lauder in terms of her design
inspiration. And at the bottom of page, page 18 is Alistister Cook's book titled America, writing about the culture of America. One of the few examples of a house that he picks in that book is of the neocclassical. Page 19 goes over the neocclassical
style which ran from circa 19, excuse me, circa 1895 to 1955 and refers to the entire rebirth of the interest in early English and Dutch houses on the Atlantic seabboard. From there it spread throughout the country. In the neocclassical style there are five
classical borders the Doric, ionic, Corinthian, Tuscin and composite. And today's example features the ionic inspiration. Page 20 continues that again just summarizing here. Page 21 is a summary
of the time periods with the neocclassical style and how they were ultimately executed in Coral Gables. Of course, during the 1920s, there were a few examples, particularly with the Pioneer Village on Santa Maria Street. We see some very high style examples um of the
colonial revival in neocclassical, but aside from that, it wasn't until the late 30s and then after the war where these um type of designs really began to predominate in the city. Moving to page 22 is the subject property photography. I think page 22 probably shows the best
two photos that we have available to look at the character defining features. So I could briefly go over those. The um hallmark of the style of course is the dominant and imposing symmetrical twotory entry porch um as the main bay and focal point and then we have bays or
wings coming off of that to the sides giving the impression of colonial L's. So if you've been to Colonial Williamsburg or Boston or many of these places where the properties were built over time, it these L's were built to extend the properties here. It's part of the initial design of it, giving that
impression of the colonial feel. Um there's smooth stuckco as the primary finish over concrete block construction and there are cast brick and wooden accents. A very shallow hip um sloped very shallow pitch hip roof um is covered in white flat shingle tiles and
has overhanging exposed eaves. The central door is from the Curtis booklet, entrance number C1718. There are stuckle panel trays beneath the first story windows, hanging lantern above the central door. Has a brick porch landing. There's a divided pane
window program and the symmetry is further celebrated on the main day with the balanced arrangement of windows in the central door. There is an inset left wing faced in line brick adjoining an outset. remainder of that wing forming a bay.
Um simplified in tableabte banding and absence of a formal pediment above the entryway giving the impression of a house and not of a temple and the side entry integral garage is constructed that way as to not impair the classical
tone of the primary facade. As we go through the pages, page 23 24 more photos. On page 25, I wanted to point out one of the key elements of this property uh inspired by
multiple previous structures. I I showed pictures earlier of the White House and of Montichello where we have the four monolithic column columns as the entryway. So, this is a feature that's used throughout time. It goes back to the temple of Athena.
And on page 26, a closeup of the column shows that as it was specified um and ultimately built, the columns are inspired by the Petro de Marello in Rome. It was not necessarily the largest because of the coliseum, but is the best preserved open air Roman theater in
Rome. And the columns there are taken in this structure. You could go there and see them. I have photos in the report. They are basically an exact replica of that. So it's interesting to see in the 1920s how with with Martin Hampton George Frink they took elements of the
Alhhamra and Dorado Tower and build it in the 1920s with French Normandy village of course you see the how a streetscape from that period was replicated in Coral Gables. So now coming into the colonial revival neocclassical period they they did some
of the same things with the architects borrowing from the old world charm to included in the modern designs. Page 27 is Tyrus Trip a brief biography. He was born in St. Louis and moved to Miami in 1936. So he did not participate with Phineas Pace, George Fank, Martin
Hampton, Richard Keen, these original band of architects of the 1920s, but he was um very important to the later periods of Coral Gables. He's primarily known for designing elegant residences and Coral Gables, modern homes for new suburban developments in Miami area and
for several larger projects. He designed some of the early homes in Pinerest which now doesn't sound to be something new but at the time he was one of the founding architects of some of the designs there and some of his larger projects are mentioned in the report.
Page 28 shows a Curtis booklet. We talked about the door earlier. Um it was a a design of course picked for this type of home, not a tutor house or a Mediterranean house. They picked a a door that would match with neocclassical design of the building.
Page 29. This building um possesses a high degree of historic integrity, has had very few operations and additions. Um the interior is not up for designation. Page 30 talks about the incentives for property owners in Coral Gables. I hope
that if this property owner does seek to do an addition, they would work with staff of the add add the Lauren tax benefit program, which many people have found helpful. Moving on to the appendices. I'd like to just point out starting page 33,
appendix A is the original plans for the property. Appendix B is the designation report for 3501 Granada Boulevard, which was designated in 2003. Appendix C is the just the first page for the report of 1234 country club
Prada, which was just designated a few years ago. Um, other than that, um, the summary recommendation would just be we ask for approval of the local historic landmark designation of the residence located 105 South Hammer Circle in Coral Gables based on its historical, cultural, and
architectural significance. And I am available for any questions. Thank you. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Gillis and Miss Carmenell. Um, does the property owner have a presentation? Do I need the microphone?
>> Uh, Test one, two. Test one, two. Okay. So, as I was saying, my name is Julio Aosten. I own the property, the subject property at 1005 Alhamra Circle, South Alhamra Circle. And I brought Mr. Rodriguez with me and I I guess he's
going to speak about the architectural integrity or lack thereof of the house. >> Uh, good evening. Uh, my name is Hamemed Rodriguez, architect at 275 Minorca Avenue. Um, so I was asked by uh Mr. A
Costa to take a look at this house and to give our opinion. Uh, I'd like to use the same presentation that they use because it has excellent pictures of of the house. And uh, I'd like to just react to to that presentation. Very well put together, I must add, as far as the
pictures of the house and illustrations of other u historical examples. And so I have a few notes here that that I put together on why I feel that this house is uh is like a snapshot I think of a
colonial house and uh and I'll go through the different points that I have. Um so >> Mr. Rodriguez, do we need to request the presentation to come up? Do you want it now? >> Yes, I would. That would be great. Could
we please put back up the PowerPoint presentation, please? >> Could you take us to page 22 of the presentation? I think that's the one he's he's looking for. Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah, a really good one would actually
be page eight. We just start with page eight. It shows the center portion and it shows the onetory portion that's part of the original house. Page eight.
Perfect. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Okay. So, u when I look at this house, I really see a ranch home. And this is uh the reason I say a ranch home is a very low slung. Uh ranch home is one that could be very
adaptable to many different styles. Um over the years, that's what's happened to ranch homes. So when I look at the proportions of this house, we have this center iconic portion with the columns. And uh when you look further, you'll see
that what is colonial is the essence of the four columns and the trim around the door. Uh other notes here that I just spoke of, point number two, the evidence of a low slung one-story ranch house uh ending u really
bookending this center portion. And you could see the amount of uh prominence that that lower uh ranch uh portion is calling to itself in relationship to the center portion. And the same is happening on the other side which was actually an open carport at one point
that was enclosed later. Uh so the other issue that I see with this is you know it's a very shallow front porch and all of the fine examples given in this report of colonial homes has a usable front porch. You look at
the Merrick house, you look at uh other examples here, uh you look at Washington's house, it had a real usable front porch with depth to it. So this here is uh what what well I'll get to that. That's my one of my final points.
So the I'm looking at this as a faux front porch. The proportion of the windows are typically more vertical in nature and in this house they're very squat. And I was studying this and I'm thinking that I think I understand why it happened because the lowslung
one-story portion is forcing the rest of the house to maintain that same uh squat in nature window. And then when you get to the the middle portion, which is the iconic, you know, snapshot of this
style, you'll see that there's a a massive gap between the second story windows and the first story windows. So therefore, again, another element that's not really true to a good what we think would be a quality colonial. And again, these examples in here are very fine
examples of good quality colonials that should be saved and and were saved, of course. Uh the other element. So we're talking about the the front. We only have two items, the columns and trim around the front door. Number four,
went over that one already. Uh well, number four is that these things feel more like a clipped on type of style. Um it's just a few little elements. the uh the shutters are not functioning shutters and the shutters are not the
size that would actually close and cover the windows because they're not functioning. Uh which is something you would see in a true uh uh historic home that should be saved. Uh proportions of administrations or squat talked about that uh vertical administrations truly
historic uh notice vertical administrations. Uh that would be something that I'd be looking for on this that there be uh larger windows, taller, the sills be closer to the floor levels. Um
okay, number eight, we went over that number nine. So, the other the other thing that comes to mind here too is also uh we would expect to see a bit more ornamentation or actual functional ornamentation such
as a couple of fireplaces bookending the middle piece transitioning down to these wings. These wings should have been taller uh as if it were a historic home that was added on to over time. Uh, but this is clearly an original house designed this way and it it has the
feeling of a almost of a speculative home of the time that was put together in a fashion that was popular at the time to pretend to be a colonial cell house. But this we feel is an inadequate
example of a colonial cell house. And let's not even talk about the rear because that is is destroyed. Uh it's been that's a hodge podge. The front is original and it's it's illproportioned and it's we feel that the uh that the
the original report written uh was a fair report and we would hope that you would vote in the same manner. Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Rodriguez. Um does anyone on the board have any questions for for
staff or the property owner or the appellant, I guess, or do you have something else to say? Yes. May I say more? >> Sure. >> Okay. So, I just want to say when I when I first saw this home and I purchased the home, I fell in love with the lot. I believe one of the letters that were
sent in in support uh was speaking about the trees. And I don't plan to touch these trees. It's a beautiful lot, but as Mr. Rodriguez just mentioned, and I'm not an architect, and I don't profess to be one, but when I first saw the property, I knew it wasn't a very
proportionate colonial. All the ones that I saw here, the entire top was even. I mean, as Mr. Rodriguez just mentioned, the sides of the home are very disproportionate to the middle. Um, and that's what I noticed as a non-expert when I first saw
the home, but I did fall in love with the location and the lot, meaning the trees, the size of the lot. So, I thought I could do something better with it. But um one of the things I do want to mention is I ask that the board keep in mind that the historical resource and
cultural arts department, Cara Cuts, if I pronounced that correctly, I hope I didn't butcher your name. Okay. Um they made the determination that it was non-historic. And I'd like to ask her if if she can maybe explain to the board, I don't know if that's proper. This is my first time at one of these hearings. I
don't know if it is proper, but uh maybe explain to the board why it isn't historic. If you don't ask, I would. So >> I I don't know if that's I don't even know. >> It's okay. I'll ask I'll ask on your behalf. >> What? >> If um if you could talk about the decision to not designate.
>> So our determination. So what's before you is not for us to defend our position as to why we did not found it was significant. Their their role is to sell on you that it is designatable. It meets
the criteria. Um, if you want something more specific, we're happy to give you something more specific. Um, >> perhaps is it best if we ask the appellant? >> Yes. >> Question. >> I mean, that's not put you on the spot.
>> I have more. I before we uh appealed >> the first question we asked before we appealed is why wasn't this historically designated and that was the answer. They wouldn't answer and we went ahead and we
believe through our research that the home sir is a really great example and it's actually a beautiful property and the trees are beautiful as well. So the question is valid. We asked it before we
even embarked on this journey because we wanted to know but we didn't get an answer and that was why we went ahead and I believe Dr. Gillis wants to say one thing about um one of
the historic the architectural features. >> Sure. Go ahead, Mr. Gillis. >> Mr. Dr. Gillis, >> while we get him back on, you you had some other comments. >> I I do. I have more to say. I'm sorry. >> Sure. Go ahead. >> Uh okay. So, there was uh Mr. Rodriguez
also spoke about the fireplaces or the lack of fireplaces. The home does not have one fireplace. It actually has one in the interior. It's not a working fireplace. It's a fake fireplace, which goes to everything that Mr. Rodriguez spoke about the home. It's a speckco. And it was trying to imitate, I guess, a
colonial. When I'm looking at their report, one of the things I noticed is that they were speaking about the Greek architecture and the columns and then they're also saying this is a colonial home. I'm confused. Again, I'm not an architect. I don't know. As a matter of fact, Mr. Rodriguez is an architect and
he spoke, but the folks that put this report together and I believe the report that has been filed, the local historic landmark designation report, I believe was drafted by
Dr. Brett Gillis and my understanding is it was also done in conjunction with uh David McKini. So, I just want to speak about their uh uh educational background and their experience and their
qualifications uh in being able to speak about the architectural and whether it's historic or not. And I'm looking at the resume provided uh and I guess this was done by Dr. Carbono and I know she spoke about a letter that was provided by Dr. Gillis. Dr. Dr. Gillis is providing a
letter supporting and uh his own report. So again, the report was done by Dr. Gillis and I guess Mr. McKini. And I'm and I'm looking at Dr. Gillis's uh I guess his bio. It's a paragraph that was provided to the board and he
holds a doctorate in health sciences and a certificate in intercultural communications. He has no architectural background or experience. And I'm looking at Dr. McKin's uh resume and he has
I guess a undergrad degree in architectural history from 1992. Um architectural history uh I guess it was an undergrad degree and then he got his doctorate degree in architectural
history. He has no work experience. He has never worked as an architect. He is not an architect. Uh, as a matter of fact, by looking at his bio, you could see that all of his experience uh is with the US Customs and Border Protection, and that's dating back to
2009, if I'm reading this correctly. Uh, I didn't see anything indicating that he has any experience or education or qualification to give any opinion with regards to architecture and ne and neither does Dr. Gillis and Dr. Carbonel
who is spearheading this um her degree is in fundraising not in our Okay. >> Thank you. Is does that conclude your remarks? >> I'm sorry. One second. I could be wrong.
It says independent uh your professional history is indic Okay. It says I'm sorry and it's I'm just reading from your resume and it says your education you're you got a certificate in fundraising. Uh you're a
certified fundraising professional and you got that from Nova Southeastern University. Is that correct? >> Miss sir, I don't think this is very relevant. She was not the office of the report and she she was just introducing the report and the speakers. >> Okay, understood. I just want to make sure that the board is aware that uh the
appellant and nobody in support of the appellent's position has any architectural background or experience. That's all. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I think Mr. Gillis had one more point to make. >> Have we been able to get him? >> Can you hear me?
>> Yes. >> Okay. Yes. A few points of rebuttal on that, please. So going back to my experience, I can tell you for the past over 10 years, I have either attended, participated, or been a member of this historic preservation board. So I think I would know something about what properties are designable and which
aren't. Furthermore, in the report, I clearly included u in appendix B, the local historic designation report for 3501 Boulevard, which is a less elaborate example of this. So I think it's very difficult for this board in good faith to turn turn this one down.
Whenever you look at criteria again one two three four country club is another example. When we look at the criteria the property owner um has not done anything to refute the criteria. We did not list the the criterion that says that this is an
outstanding work of a pro prominent designer builder group. This is exactly what they said it is. It's a an example. It's a snapshot of that period of gave us history where this type of architecture was being built in terms of portrays the environment era era history
of I'm getting aggravated here portrays the environment in an era of history characterized by one or more distinctive architectural styles. This is not a ranch style house. It's not a one-story home to begin with which a ranch would be. Doesn't have the garage facing the street like most of the ranches do unless they're on a corner. So this is
all of character defining features that have been listed in the report. Fireplace was not one of them. Some colonial and neocclassical homes can have that. They don't all have that. It was not listed in the report as being one of the features. Um many of the design elements that we did
go over pertain to that criterion architectural significance number four that it contain contains elements of design, detail, materials or craftsmanship which represent adaptation of the South Florida environment. As time went on, these architects began to
realize that some features of the period examples were not ideal for for coral gables built environment, such as the widely overhanging eaves. You're not going to find that in many period colonials, but you will find it in this example. Going back to the earlier
examples, Mount Vernon, Montichello, you know, those of course are excellent period examples that we're not saying this is a period colonial. We're saying this is a neocclassical example of architecture and gables from a specific period in time. They talked about David McKenny's
background. I mean, he's not an architect. He's an architectural historian. That's why we have a letter from him. He's an architectural historian studied at William and Mary. This is his wheelhouse in terms of neocclassical colonial revival. I don't think that can be refuted. Um, another
point that was made. It's disproportionate. That's part of how the prominent entrance receives its grand jur is by the other wings being subordinate to that. That's listed in the character defining features. Um, the fact that it's a speck home or
not a speck home, this was not commissioned by a construction company doesn't really matter even if it was. It was it was commissioned by a couple that built it as a home. And even if it were a spec house, model homes are designated all the time. I mean, many of the homes on Obis Avenue were were spec homes,
Country Club Prao. This is something that was done throughout history and still being done today. So, that's not something we would eliminate from being designated or not designated. Model homes, not model homes, they're both designated. So again, um I would conclude there. Thank you.
>> Thank you, Mr. >> Yeah. And just to finalize, um number one, Dr. Gillis um is highly qualified. He served on your board and that gives him a certain um status and qualification. Um also, it's not the
first report that has been submitted and has been approved. Um, also, uh, about fireplaces, we're not even dealing with the inside. So, I don't think that's even an issue.
And for this being a ranch home, I I I really, it's the first time I've heard that a ranch home is, you know, looks like a neocclassical and has those features. So, um, you know, again, and Dr. McKenna, you see his CV, it's a very
extensive, experienced historian and um we were happy to have him uh collaborate with in with with this report. As far as my qualifications, I have a doctor in public administration with a um
with a concentration up for profofit management and I have been leading the historic preservation association for over a decade and I am very involved with the city and its architecture and
historical and cultural uh heritage. So, um I thank you for your time and u and you know I thank the homeowners or the homeowner actually we met uh uh about a month ago,
excuse me, at your property and uh we had a nice conversation. So, thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Carell. One more and yeah, >> listen, I think you're doing what you're doing long enough. you get experience, you read enough, you you learn. And so,
let's leave it there. Um, again, I ask you to really look at this. This is a ranch home. It's got two elements, the columns and the door trim. The only reason I mentioned chimney is like other things that would add to this chimneys,
dormers, anything else to give it especially proportion, which is something we can't fix. Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Rodriguez. Um, is there anyone else on Zoom or here who wishes before against this item? >> I understand we had uh letters that were
submitted. Can you please um >> distributed they've been distributed to the board. Um >> well, it would be nice if you mentioned um >> I I believe that happens. >> They do not need to be read into the record. Neither do their names and they're not um sworn testimony. So, they
can be considered by the board, but they're not sworn testimony. >> There was one additional one additional that was received at 3:00 this afternoon that was not forwarded to you all from um Marabel Bammon on Bird Road. It will be added to the record.
>> Thank you. All right. Thank you. Um so, if there's no one else to speak from the public, I'm going to close the public hearing and I'm going to open it to questions and discussion from the board. Miss Eert. Um I'm new to this board so uh just a
little question about the history. So this did not come here before. Correct. It went to you for whether or not uh for a demolition. >> It came to us for historic significance determination. >> Right. >> Which is a preliminary step to
>> to usually for de demolition. Okay. So and that's how we've landed here. >> Correct. There's an appeal period uh after we issue the letter. They are posted online uh and they are there's an appeal period of 10 days in which someone can appeal at decision of staff.
One additional um my children lived at 924 South Alhamra. So I'm well two other house on South Alhamra. So I know the neighborhood very well. And I I walked over uh the other morning and um you know I I think that I'm the only member
of this board that lives east of the highway and I'm not sure where you live but anyway um >> and uh we have uh four of the seven villages on our side of the highway. We have very few historic homes. I can
almost count on two hands um because I walk a lot and I but um so this is interesting to me. Thank you. Thank you, Miss Z. Mr. Pon, >> and just for Miss Couts, I know that the
letter of determination, um, it was the staff's opinion that this project did not rise to the level of designation. Is that safe to say since it wasn't recommended for designation, >> correct? The Yes,
>> that's simple. Okay. I don't need the specifics. Thank you. And that one more question for staff and maybe the city attorney will address and it has to do with what I think um substantial competent evidence and um I really commend the city staff for the
incredible reports that they provide us day in and day out for these things. This is new um it's different than the ones that we have been receiving. Um thus different in many ways. So I think it's clear the staff recommendations that we
get are very clearly done as far as what I believe are substantial competent evidence. I'm having I'm not sure if this is is that for us to decide. Is that for staff to decide? Is that for the applicant to decide? Do they have to prove their case? This the substantial
competent evidence threshold is that the decisions that you make to the extent that they are ever challenged have to have been made on substantial competent evidence that was presented before you in these hearings. So that is a determination you all make as to what is substantial and competent evidence. That doesn't mean there cannot be substantial
competent evidence on both sides of a decision decision. It just has to mean that the decision you make was based on substantial competent evidence as presented to you as determined by you. So qualifications uh formats of report that's all for you
all to consider and the balance in your quasi judicial role. >> So that's for as individual to decide. >> Correct. The board as a whole >> when they vote on a motion and the motion and the second should make a determination that based on the substantial competent evidence presented to it whether that be this report
whether it be the property owner's presentation. So the the motion should refer to the substantial competent evidence on which you rely >> and the the application by it's the fact that it is an
application is saying that it is substantial they're they're claiming to have substantial competent evident evidence on their side. >> Substantial competent evidence is a determination for you all to make sitting in a quasi judicial capacity if the evidence presented to you um is sufficient on upon which to make a
decision. And the last one on this is only as presented today at this hearing. >> So that's the sworn testimony before you. Whether or not there were exparte communications or public comment that was received, it may not be sworn testimony. So it's a um a harder hurdle
on an appeal process to say that um nonsworn testimony was substantial competent evidence. It's a little bit difficult to address that way, but um sorry for the legal ease. >> No, I appreciate it. Thank you. Um that was my initial questions. I have some about the project, but I'll I'll step back for a second.
>> Miss Alvarez, you have a question? >> No, I was going to say um it is a difficult process, I understand, to determine whether a property is uh significant or not, but one has to take a critical look at it um as the um
applicant has said. And this this project has very weak details when it comes to um colonial architecture. The proportions are off. If you look at the sophet, it's very inexpensively built. Um, you know, the spacing of the column is way off. And there's just things that
would have been um special to the project had it been a true um neocclassical uh kind of inspired building, but but it's it's very watered down. I don't know how else to explain it. So, I think um although we didn't get a full explanation on why it wasn't
considered historic by staff, I I imagine that's contributes to the decision. >> Does anyone else have any questions? >> Mr. May, >> I'm I'm just looking at some of the um other examples and I'm looking at the
1234 country club home example um and that was um designated. So I'm trying to understand what the difference is why this house is the analogy is being made to a ranch style house
>> can answer that. >> Yeah. Yeah. So it's low to the ground, >> right? Um which already um is um of an architecture that's less expensive. I don't know if else to put it. Um the
1234 I visited personally, that house has um very nice detailing on the finish. It's a it's a type of block that imitates brick. So there's a gesture to be creative with the materials. >> The corners is nicely done. The
proportion of the windows and the shutters coincide. So there's a logic to the architectural components. Um it's raised from the ground. Um there's a nice proportion to it where this one is like just sprawling. Um and I imagine
there's nothing that contributes on the inside which is um I don't know which is also a telling sign like a good architecture is usually has details that are um compelling inside and out. Um so that in particular example I was
familiar with. >> Thank you. That was helpful. Thank you. >> Um Mr. Garcia, I think you had some additional questions or comments. >> Um, and I think it's it's similar to, and I remember I learned this the hard way with the precursor to the
um each individual criteria, the word significant. And that's um I think that's a difficult one and I appreciate the staff doing it. I appreciate the the application. Um, but I think in this particular case, the the word applied
comes to mind. And I think Mr. Rodriguez talked about the the pieces that could be easily taken off this building that as Miss Alvarez mentioned, true colonial or true typologies are something that just can't be added on and tacked on and
taken off. And um although the porticole was original to the house, just looking at some of the details, it it it really looks like it was an afterthought to another type of building. Um does it have a couple of items? Sure. The column is great. The door looks good. Um but
I'm not sure if it has the significant if it meets for me the significant criteria um for designation. That's my comment. >> Thank you, Mr. Bones. Anyone else have any questions or comments?
Um, >> and I'm sorry, one more thing is I'm the first one to talk about designating things that aren't from the 1920s. So, this is not easy, but that's my comment. >> Thank you. Um, so I I would echo my my um fellow board members uh questions and
concerns. I think I think the report was very well done and I think it it makes its case very clearly. Um this is the second report that um that that your organization puts forward and and we did designate the last one. Um so so thank
you for for doing that strong work. Um, that being said, I think this particular house, um, I would agree with with all the comments that were made previously, um, in terms of its proportioning and its sense of kind of being an applied, uh, decorative motif instead of properly
masked and properly um, done with with the masonry openings and the and the wings. Um, so I think um, I think we've had discussion. I will open it for a motion. We closed the public hearing already.
>> Oh, we asked if there was uh folks on Zoom. Yeah. So, we'll open for a motion. I assume that that u motion is based on the presentations and information presented today. If there's anything particular you want to note um
based on the presentation today. Yes. >> So we have a motion. Do we have a second? I'll second. >> Motion, Miss Shield and second by Miss Luben. Can you call the role? Sorry, Miss B.
>> Yeah, I had it on the brain. I had it on the brain. Sorry. >> Sorry, Tom. >> That's okay. He's been called Mr. >> Can we call the roll, please? >> Great, Miss Denise. I just want to say the presentation was
beautiful and I very much appreciate it and reluctantly I'm going to vote in favor of the motion. >> Miss Spain. >> Yes. >> Miss Ever. Okay. Mr. Garcia Pon.
>> Yes. Okay. >> All right. Miss Alvarez. >> Yes. >> Miss Shield. Yes. >> Okay. And Mr. Silva? >> Yes.
>> Motion passes. 70 >> to the chair. >> Yes. >> Uh I just I believe I guess the property will be demolished. I don't know if there's any chance of saving any of the the columns in the door and the door frame that have been described as the
historic uh elements. just before it all gets thrown in a trash bin. I I would just maybe ask the owner to consider that. >> U may I make an additional comment? Um I've had experience um ter demolishing a
house. So much of it can be saved. I also headed the sustainability board. So, you know, I mean, just about everything in that house somebody will want and I I can talk to you about that. >> All right. Thank you all. Appreciate
your time. Thank you. >> All right. Moving on the agenda. Our next item is a city project update um for the
relocation of the gondola building. Good evening, Hermes Diaz, PolyWars director. Um, the reason I'm here is to discuss the relocation of the Gondola building. Um, can we put up the presentation? >> Mr. Diaz, did you say relocation?
>> Yes. Correct. While we wait, I don't know, Mr. Diaz, if I know this item has come before us. >> Sure. Before, if you want to just give us a real brief summary or the presentation's online already, if you if you're ready for >> Okay, I must have done something wrong.
There you go. I went too far. So, so yes, the reason I'm here um is to have a discussion regarding um the relocation of the Gondola building. Um a lot of the body parts that you already seen, I've been here already a couple of times um on this very same item. U just just a
brief u um reminder, I guess, even though I probably don't need to. Uh construction of the Bilma motel began in 1924 with the Gondola building being an original accessory structure. Um and that location was used to have a gondola
uh rights um for the uh for BIMO hotel guest to Tahiti beach in Biscan Bay. Um the Bilma Hotel itself and the country club complex was designated national hallmark in 1996. That is the current location um of the
Gondola building which as we all know um it collapsed several years ago. Some of the photos of the existing building prior to its collapse. Some additional photos. We are currently working through um the um replicating
the building with uh working on the plans uh and the ideas for us to reuse as many parts that are possible to incorporate um into the building and and and these are just some of the examples of of the things that
you know being worked on. Um the proposed location for um relocation will be as you see on the map uh closer to B road um still adjacent to the water
and a little bit of a little zoom in um area for the new location. Um the reasons we want we prefer the gondola building to be placed at this location as several uh for starters it will be more accessible to the public from Bur road uh there's a lower
likelihood of disruption to golfing activities during and after construction um increased safety of golf players construction workers and future prime uh patrons um with the issue of you know the golf balls going around um it will have better access to construction
equipment and personnel uh reduce risk of damage to a nationally recognized golf course due to construction activities. Um, I'd like to add that the BMA hotel operations support the new location and that um, we have checked with the grantor because there's a grant involved in all this and they have no
objections to this location and you know we wanted to make the board aware that uh, we're going to be going to the commission uh, most likely at the next commission meeting um, using the uh, provision of the zoning code where we're going to ask the city to um, approve the
relocation of the gondola building. So, so you're not looking for action from us? >> We're not. We're just making you aware. >> Before we we discuss, I guess, right? Uh the the um we had we had had this come before us before. >> Correct.
>> Um we had extensive discussion. Can you can you refresh everyone because I think some of us may have not been here um where we landed after all that discussion? We we we did come >> maybe put put theision back on >> and we can go back and put it >> because I know most of it centered
around the the sighting of >> correct. Yes. >> Um so so we we were actually um the original location where we wanted to put the the gondola building was actually um adjacent to the tennis uh complex because we felt that was the place where
it was actually going to have some usage. Uh the problem with that location was that the grand tour um the the state of Florida will not authorize it because being a gondola building they said that it needs to be by the water. Um so I I
we came to this I came to this board um I don't recall the exact timeline asking you to approve for the relocation. Um this board insisted on the gondola building being at its original location. So we actually came back and we got a COA. Did I say that correctly? All
right. So we got a COA to maintain the gondola building at its current location. However, after further internal discussions, you know, it's been decided to just bring this item to the commission and have them decide on it. >> So is the commission going to know that we want it to stay in the present
location or is this just done and you're letting them know? >> I'm I'm we'll we'll make sure to let them know. I mean, it won't do anything. >> I mean, we're not we're not going to keep it from them. >> And uh um what are you going to use it for? >> Um that's always been the struggle with this building. I mean, it it it's we
don't know at the time at the moment. >> And what is the rest of that location that it's near used for now? >> Um you mean where it's at right now? >> Yeah. No. Where are you going to move it? >> And the other building, what is that building used for?
>> Any no different what it is right now? Like like we haven't I'm sorry. >> And what is that used for? Isn't that like the equipment yard for the >> the equipment yard is behind the behind that that area is screened with some landscaping. But yes, that building yard is it's the the bill
>> cities. >> It's not the cities, it's the billors. >> Oh, even worse. Okay. >> Right. >> I I think >> I can I is there any way to see exactly where that is? Because I mean I live right >> I have another There you go. That's a little closer.
>> Okay. And Hermes, you can use the um laser pointer if you want to go back to the other other map. I think the red dot was a little difficult to see. >> It's off of >> Bird Road. What are you trying to say?
>> This is the existing. >> So that's Bird Road. >> Bird Road. It's Bird Road. >> Bird Road. It's adjacent to those new homes on on Bird Road. There's a little uh um >> path that goes up there to an equipment yard that's used for
>> Yeah. storing >> and that's Granada on the >> Yes. East side. Okay. Can can we ask for the the rationale behind I mean I think when we when we approved the COA we were very clear about our rationale right for for leaving it there in terms of its
historic authenticness right and we understand that it's being reconstructed but we thought it was important to have in its original location >> right >> um and an additional component to that was kind of this public access and public use of the building right it was going to be maintained in a place that
is accessible to at least the users of the golf course. Whereas now tucking it away in the corner, >> no one will go there. >> Yeah. Yeah. Next to >> public doesn't go there. That's not a public access road. >> That's a private road by construction. >> The the the conversation with the bill
is that they will be allowing access to that location >> for >> for anything. Yeah, I just >> look the reality about this building that we could never find a real usage for it. And that was the issue at its current location, not at
the location we're putting in. The the reason we're proposing this relocation is to actually make it more accessible away from the golf balls. And you know, there's significant concerns of the potential of disruption and and uh damage to the golf course during
construction. Um so those are really you know everything else it's in addition to but those are the two uh you know biggest reasons why we think this location >> I'm sorry >> that's really ridiculous >> that you think that the that the
construction work >> restoring this building is going to harm the golf course I mean that you did >> access to the location yes absolutely I think there's a there's a chance of that happening I have >> Mr. Pon. >> Okay, thank you.
>> I have a question for staff for a second. >> Sure. >> We approved a COA and the COA I thought was pretty clear as to yes, restore the building per the drawings that they provided in that location.
Does that mean anything? Is that a isn't that a real thing? >> Correct. There has been a COA issued for the design of the reconstructed building as well as the location. My understanding um from Mr. Diaz and from the city manager is that they will be proceeding to the commission pursuant to
the um exemption from the zoning code in section one- I believe it's 1-101 of the city zoning code that allows after a public hearing the city commission to exempt certain city properties from um the procedures in the zoning code. >> So >> that's my understanding.
>> No, that that is absolutely correct. So the COA >> was was properly made by us and the city administration is using the available zoning code text to
exempt it from >> rather than um alter the certificate of appropriateness or amend the certificate of appropriateness. That's my understanding. >> Right. >> And I'm sure the city has ruled that that is possible. That's the procedure that's been followed with um other city
facilities, city fire station, the city hall windows as you know. Um so the city has availed itself of that process um a few times. >> And so you're here just to tell us what's happening. >> Um >> thank you very much Mr. Diaz. >> Thank you. I think Miss Shield you had a
question. >> Yes. Could you uh tell us what other locations were investigated that would also uh meet the criteria for the grantee? >> Anywhere along the waterway. >> So you looked at what area on the
waterway? Can you show us on the map? >> We consider several locations. Um we try to the idea is to keep it away from golf balls and and that particular location being close to B road will potentially be more accessible um in the future. That's pretty much the right
>> so there's no other location that you considered >> that there were several locations that were looked at but that was the one that we settled on. >> I just feel like it's I know the area that's a
a storage. It's it's shielded because it's unsightly. It's not accessible to the public. There's no place to park unless you park in a residential uh home. And I I'm just
curious. There were no other locations >> any location by the water. Unfortunately, we have that situation. That location specifically, you actually do have an access road um with, you know, you could potentially get to it from Bur Road >> without necessarily going through the golf. you look at Bryant Park at the
park. >> The there were two conditions that the Grand Tour gave us. One of them was that it needed to be within the Builtmore property >> because I I agree with you. Uh Brian and Parks will have been a great place for it, but it has to be within the Builmore
area and the second thing they told us was it has to be next to the water. Th those were the two restrictions that the grand tour gave us. >> Mr. One more question for staff, perhaps a city attorney. I think it's it's a repeat of a similar question. When this
item is presented to commission, are they going to be provided the COA from this board? Is that a requirement because they're going around and using their don't they have to know what >> the process in the zoning code doesn't require that? Traditionally, it wouldn't
have gone to a board for approval before um that, but I'll defer to Mr. Diaz and the city manager about the form of their presentation. I'm not aware that it's a requirement, but if that's something you would like to request, >> we will not keep from the commission the fact that this board already looked at it and uh the COA was provided,
>> right? There's a difference. I'm not sure then what >> not keeping and presenting, right? >> Okay. >> So, >> I mean I I I think it's the same thing. >> Not a question to you, Mr. Diaz. >> Sure. So the question is going to be and maybe discussion amongst the board is do we make a recommendation to staff and
the city manager and the commission to include our initial COA which was really very good and detailed as part of the presentation to the commission at this time in whatever format that takes but
at least have the COA in the agenda packet so that they can read it if they choose to. That's going to be my request of this board, not Mr. Diaz. So, >> can I make that motion? >> I don't know. >> Be able to make a motion. >> We can we can make I think we can make a
resolution to or or something similar to go to the commission with this item. Is that correct? >> The board is always um able to make a recommendation or discussion that would be a part of the minutes and presented to the commission as a either a board requesting action, a board resolution requesting action or it can be included
in the minutes presented to the um commission. I'm not aware when this is proceeding to the city commission, so I'm not sure of the timing of minutes and that, but you are more than >> most likely at the next commission meeting, >> which is in >> um August 26. So, I believe there's
enough time for um an item to be put on the agenda. >> Um >> so, you're presenting on that uh Tuesday a week on the 26th >> most likely. Yes. >> Okay. So before before we close the discussion, I do want to say I I agree
with everything we've said here. I think the other the original location is is the better location. I think the Builtmore and that gondola building have had golf golf balls launched at it since its inception and it's been fine. That was not the cause of its demise. Um I
understand that it's it's a difficult ask in terms of construction but it's a temporary disruption whereas this building is going to be in its permanent location for you know another 100 years right um so I think
this board is very clear um and and that being said um I'll open the floor for a motion for a resolution something along the lines of what Mr. Garcia was suggesting >> you're better at this. I'd like to make a motion uh
to include in your agenda item uh the certificate of appropriateness approval with the backup information that we we had that was very clear that this board uh wanted the gondola building to stay
at its present location. to Miss Spain. That's a direction to staff that um they will follow up with the city manager on how to proceed with that recommendation. >> So staff being who? >> I'm sorry. >> But is it a direction to this staff or our historic preservation? >> Well, it's his item.
>> It's my item. So, >> it's his item. So, he's the one that's going to have to prepare the item and include something in it from our staff. Ju >> just to be clear that this board cannot direct staff. It's a recommendation to staff that can be brought up to the city manager. You could also similarly make a
request or recommendation to the city commission. So I just your recommendation >> maybe that's better a recommendation recommendation to the city commission that >> they see that uh I just want them to see that
>> they be provided the approved certificate of appropriateness >> along with staff's presentation. >> Yes, I guess that's right. I second.
>> So, we have a motion and a second. >> Any friendly amendments? >> I have a comment. Um, can we ask to research alternative locations? >> So, you weren't here during the other several times that we've seen this. The
COA is very detailed >> and I and I believe that COA goes into possible uses that would be after hours. So, you're not um >> the discussion included discussion of that that I don't know that the certificate of appropriateness itself determines
>> then I would like to amend it and include the discussion that we had at that time. >> That's a motion. >> Okay. So, we have a motion and a second. Um so, let's call the role. >> Who seconded the motion? Miss E.
>> Thank you. Miss Alvarez, >> yes. >> Miss Shield, >> yes. >> Miss Dana, >> yes. >> Mr. Garcia Puns, >> yes. >> Okay. Miss Bane, >> yes.
>> Miss Eert, >> yes. >> And Mr. Silva? >> Yes. Motion carries unanimous. >> Mr. Silva, if I could just clarify, I just just for the record, I I just think it may be cleaner that this is a request for the city commission to consider rather than be provided as it likely
will be on the same agenda as the um item itself. >> Does that mean they get the copy of the COA? >> We we can work on that with staff and then separately um generally when the board passes them passes a motion requesting um city commission action, the chair is automatically allowed to
come present that. If it's going to be someone besides the chair who's going to attend the meeting, I would ask that you designate someone today to come speak on behalf of the board. >> So the chair is Mr. Maxwell who's not here. We don't know his availability. Um can we designate him and an alternate?
>> So he's he's automatically the person we would need to designate somebody else. >> Correct. Can we do the chair and an alternate? Generally to avoid sunshine law issues, we tend to have just um one one member appear in in their capacity as a historic preservation board member
representing the position of the board. >> So should that be the vice chair? >> I think it would make more sense that there is someone that was in the president at this meeting that would present >> the motion because Mr. Maxwell won't be familiar with the discussion unless he
comes back and watches the videos and then didn't have any questions any of his questions answered and all of that. So >> I would recommend picking someone from seven how many >> the 26th. >> Typically what we do when we know a
board member is attending will request a time certain it you know we you won't be heard before that time but you may be heard after that time. So just so you know I would love to be that person but I I can't guarantee that I I can do it that day.
It's my husband's birthday. I'm not sure what's happening. So, I don't know. >> The volunteers. >> I think Miss Spain would be the perfect person. >> I guess I can try to make it, but I don't want to not show up.
>> It's your husband's birthday. >> It's his birthday and >> you can't do that to your husband. >> I I could He's sort of used to Nice present. >> The person could always appear via Zoom if that helps you, Miss Spain. Um, also
no one needs to appear. Just if if you would like someone to appear. >> I think it's important that somebody appears in some some way or another. Um, >> all right. Let let me let me just say I'll do it and I'll just tell Tom. >> You know, >> I'm already there for two items that
day, but um I wasn't part of the original conversations. So that's why I feel that those of you who went through that, you know, I don't know what your what your thoughts were
>> and and if if staff could just send the information to me in advance, >> staff, if you could just send me the information that's going Okay, of course. And um I think in speaking with Mr. Mr. Diaz here. He suggested that um perhaps as part of this item that goes
to the commission, we will attach the background on your item so that it may be considered um that's Mr. Diaz's suggestion that the previous uh COA and background transcript etc be included with your resolution. >> Perfect.
>> Thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Um so that is that was the last item on our agenda. Are there any other discussion items? I'm sorry. >> Um I I would like to to make a motion
that staff works on uh design criteria for the French Normandy village. And I'm thinking that maybe that uh should go into the spite spec site specifics in the zoning code
that already have information on those properties. Um >> good looking. Yeah. which is a longer process for you, but but it's what the architects would look at and um you could just print that out
for any um property owners. >> It may be more um easier for people to understand if it's not in sight specifics that it's a standalone document because the site specifics are really like block one, block two, >> it has more teeth if it's in the zoning code.
>> Yeah, it can be we can look at how to do it. >> Maybe maybe it's both. Miss Feain, are you talking specifically about windows or about it? Just it's a general, but there are like um the Pioneer Village on San Maria Street, it it does talk about designs. It says that that they're
allowed to have uh wood fences there. And then if you go to the Chinese village, it talks about the pallet of colors that's allowed. So there are weirdly design criteria mixed within the zoning code. and once it gets in the zoning
code, it has a lot more teeth as far as being able to um regulate them. >> I think that's a great idea. Also, I would suggest we have some sort of guidelines specific to windows and lowe windows and that would be helpful to residents. >> Stephanie, can that be the same motion?
>> They make two separate motions or >> I I I heard that as a friendly amendment. >> Friendly amendment. Can we include that or should they be separate? >> Right now, I want to keep it to the French. Keep it separate. because I wanted to go into the the site specifics and that's that's
>> that's different than a guideline. I understand >> it is >> but I I think it's important to have guidelines generally but this is just for that one area and then in the future it's like when the city annexes property
an area and they have like um chain link fences on the front of their property that we would never allow. We don't require them to take those down, but if they want to replace it with something, it has they have to come into compliance with the zoning code. And so it would be the same for any of these properties within this district.
>> I'd like to second that motion. >> I have a potential friendly amendment. >> Okay. >> Um and maybe it's a direction to staff to create design guidelines for historic villages starting with the French Normandy village or do you just want to be
>> But I I I want to start with this one. Start. But I do. We want to be We want them all, >> but we want you to start with this one or you just want to forget about the other ones right now. >> Maybe we should just start with this one and then >> I get it. >> They're so busy. >> I think it'd be easier for them to just
start with this one and then >> I hear they can pick away >> and then we'll have better ideas for the next one. >> So, Mr. Garcia pawns, your friendly amendment is rejected. >> Unfriended. >> Unfriended. >> All right. So, we have a a motion and a
second. Um can we is this a voice suffic? >> Voice vote is sufficient. >> Yeah. So all in favor I >> I >> All opposed motion carries unanimously. >> I don't I don't think I need to make a motion on my question. I think I can
just ask staff to look into look into that guidelines for windows. >> Um does anyone else have something? I'd just like to say that I've asked for a certificate of condolence to be presented at the next commission meeting
for Dolly McIntyre. So that's going to be I think one of the first things on the agenda. So >> yeah, that's Yeah. Thank you. >> So, the only the only item that that we have um that comes to mind is I'm
pleased to report um that we received a uh Florida Trust for Historic Preservation Restoration Award for the Think Studio. >> Kudos to our architect. >> Congratulations. >> Overall team. >> Excellent.
>> Welcome back, by the way. >> Thank you. just in case you all forgot. Um, no, I was just going to comment on I know there was um a discussion or question about changing the meeting dates. Uh, I just want to make sure and make it clear here and I'll have a conversation with the chair as well that you know
decisions like that need to be made between the board and at the at a public hearing and anything that comes through from that directive will come through this staff and then we'll present it to the city clerk and all that. So maybe at the next meeting we can have an item if that's something that wants to be
discussed and um move it forward for or not. >> Yeah. >> Mr. Maxwell did speak to me before he left and asked me to bring it up. So I'm glad you did. Um yeah, he's pushing to have it moved back to >> but we should talk about it here. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> I don't sure what you're I'm unfamiliar.
>> So there was a request um from Mr. Maxwell. Our meetings used to be on the third Thursday of the month. Not Wednesday. Today is the third Thursday, >> right? So when I started, I'll say two years ago, the meetings were um
previously on Wednesdays, the third Wednesday. And now uh when there was a change to the location of the meeting, they had brought it back to Thursdays where we are now. Um and there was a request to put them back on Wednesdays. So um he's not here now. Did he want us to continue the the
>> I think he wanted he didn't want us to discuss it. No, he he wanted us to bring it up and discuss it, but if you want to defer that to the next meeting at the next meeting. Oh, right. If there's I think it's important that he Okay. >> Um, but yes, but just to I'm just reiterating that that's a conversation
to have in for the full board in the public setting and any directive that comes from there comes to this staff to me or Cara. I've also been asked that these meetings used to be on channel 77 live. Is that
>> the meetings used to be on channel 77? I don't think they are. Thought they were >> I don't we'll confirm with the communications office. >> I don't know that any >> people have cable. >> I don't know that any meetings are on there anymore. >> Yeah. >> No, I'm not I'm not aware but we can verify. We'll verify and if not it's the
YouTube and the Zoom or however you watch them online. >> All right. Entertain a motion to adjurnn. Mr. Chair, >> please >> adjourn. Second. >> All in favor? I >> We are adjourned.