This historic preservation commission meeting is being held on May 20th, 2025 at 7 p.m. Statement of adequate notice pursuant to the Sunshine Law. Adquate notice in accordance with the Open Public Meetings Act NJSA 10:4-6 was provided on January 28th,
2025 of this meeting's date, time, and place. The agenda was mailed to the Cranberry Press and Home News Tribune, posted on the Township Bulletin board, and mailed to those requesting personal notice, um, and filed with the municipal clerk. Roll call and volunteer hours,
please. Miss Sutmire, are they all here? So since my last we didn't um like 20ish. Yeah.
All right. Uh Miss Ryan here 10 hours. Mr. Guyire here two. Mr. Hull here three and a half. Miss Marlo here two Mr. Sabo here five
and Miss Verini here three. All right. And Mr. Christopher is not here yet but we have a quorum. Okay. All righty. So um we can begin with application 10
court. Um check defense. Are you from 10 Sims? Welcome. Nice to see you. There we go. Thank you for coming in. Gabe Letterman, 10 Sims Court. Thank you to the committee for having me in. I
appreciate it. Um, so I would just like to start off by telling the committee that we're going to be rescending our application. Okay. Um, and I'm going to just explain to the committee why and hopefully get some feedback from you guys so that we can resubmit. So, that's
what I want to start off with. So, um we did submit an application to the zoning board for a fence um and a shed. As you guys can see there, it was rejected because we were told that the historic zone does not allow for a front yard
fence. So, I would like to get some information and clarity on that because I know that there are other homes within the historic zone that do have front yard fences. So, um if it's as simple as, you know, a as
a a zoning variance to get that done or just move the location of the fence somewhat so that we are in compliance, that's what we'd like. I don't want to have to go through a long-term process to make this happen. So if we can conform it to what
would be acceptable to the committee and the town then that's something that maybe we would like to look at. Would you be able to just tell us a little bit about how you came about your idea of doing the fence like what your Sure. So Absolutely. So the yeah the idea for the
fence came up from the old historic photos of the home that depict the home with the front yard fence um which is shown on a lot of the renderings that are present in town as well as one of the 1885 lithographs that we were
presented from somebody in town as well. So to recreate the historic aspect of the home like we intended to do with rehabilitating the land back to its original farming state, you know, not to the scale it was obviously, but to kind
of relive that. We wanted to recreate how the house actually looked in that time period from the pictures that we had seen. So that's where the idea of the front yard fence came from. And then seeing other homes on Main Street, there's another home on Sims Court that
also do have front guard fences. So, it didn't cross our minds that it would be something that was not permitted. So, hence, if it's something that we can work towards doing because of the way that it was back then and trying to restore that, um, then yes, we could. We
did find what we believe to be posts in the ground. So, if that's something that helps us to reestablish that and have somebody come out and see that, then that would be, you know, that would be, I think, maybe helpful in our position as well. Um, so that is to the feds. Um,
okay. The the shed, I mean, we just wanted to have some storage space. Nothing nothing major, just the shed. Yeah, the shed is in the back. The shed is in the back where the existing tennis court was. Um, so the tennis court has since been cleared out. Um, it's all the
overgrowth has been removed. Um, we're down to portions in the backyard where we can actually see green asphalt tennis court and white stripes. Um, we found both neck posts. Um, which is pretty cool. One is embedded in the tree trunk.
Um but yes, that so in that area back there where that tennis court was, um we were hoping to use a decent portion of that tennis court as a foundation obviously for the shed. So that was the idea of putting the shed back.
Well, the I think the first comment I would say is that the shed um I believe is I I think you have a lot of liberty with the shed from our perspective because it's not viewed visible from the street and the only people that really
kind of work with that is like the zoning board and they work on how set back it is and the lines and all that. So, and when talking with Andre at the zoning board, he did say that we could just resubmit to do the shed and it wouldn't be an issue. So if it just comes down to submitting an application
to do the shed and then submitting a separate application to do the fence once we come to that then we'll just do it separately. Yeah. So that that's not an issue. Yeah. Um the fence thing is really interesting because I'm going to be like totally forthcoming. I don't know why I don't know the history of
fences in this town and I do see your I see what you're saying in that we do have some homes that have fences. I would imagine maybe what happened and we have people who know that they were grandfathered maybe um the rule happened. Yeah, they were
grandfathered in. Um that said, I mean if you have a picture of the old structure, I think that's going to help us a lot. Okay. Yeah, perfect. Yeah, like with the I think what comes to mind if this is the front rail to me that's a
very rural fence, right? Not for in town. Okay. You know, fair enough. It's visible with the house. It just in my mind it doesn't really go with Appreciate that. And and that's why I'm here because if there's a way that we
can work with because your neighbor on Sims, they have a picket fence. Exactly. Yes. Exactly. Lower, you know, it's okay. Okay. We define the front yard and then you can continue the other I want to see the
I want to see the picture because I think that's like okay the coolest part is that I mean to find out that like you know how we can bring it back and we have some other examples of properties in this town where you know people have had the old picture and they've brought it back to how it was. But it was when
the house was built it was rural. Exactly. And then it was built up so becoming part of the David what what fence are you liking or not? This says front fence. the white which would be that to me is
more rural. Oh, you think how about this fence? This is from the other application. Yes. Okay. So, that might be a way to modernize like since to kind of, you know, find a happy medium between the two where
it would fit in with the streetscape. A vertical picket. Yes. Fence might be more consistent with what you'd expect in town now. Right. What do the uh historic photographs indicate for the fence type? If anything, I will have to
I'll email those to you guys so that you can you can take a look at those there. Um I will I will email them to you so that you can you can look at them. Yeah, I'll send them dies and also um in that email I'll just say that I'm rescending this application and and just way you
have that on on file as well. But do expect us to resubmit something else so that we can move forward. But um yeah, it was just more wanted to understand from the town's perspective, from the zoning side, okay, I understand what they're saying, but from a historical
side, what do we need to do to try and make it acceptable to you guys, but still try and maintain what we're looking to do with the historical aspect of Are you um looking to do this in the back the um this this time in the back
where can't be seen by the street? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Where we've seen that around different farms farms now. Yeah. just just along the back because in the back where where the tennis court was, there was that existing it's like a 12 foot tall chain length fence. Um but it
only now covers two sides of the tennis court. It had come down in the back. So it was either do we try and say, "Well, the posts are all here. We're just going to redo the fence then repair what was there." So it it with clearing it now,
it gives us a better idea of how we're going to proceed back there. So yeah, we're going to resubmit a a new application for you. And this um gate is this would this if you do this, would this be visible from the street? Is your intention for it to It would it would
not. I don't believe it would be visible from the street because it's set back behind the garage on an angle. So you you as you drive past the house, you would just see the trees that are there. You wouldn't be able to see the gate now. Okay. Yeah, that would be my only comment. Like I wouldn't put this in view of the street. Yeah. No,
absolutely. But no, that wouldn't be in view of the street. No. What else? Anything else, you guys? Not for me. Thank you. Absolutely. Any other questions? Comments. We see more pictures of what you're doing on Facebook where you're Yes, we're we're
hoping to just, you know, we're we're waiting to get a nice good aerial view of the tennis court because I know everybody's been asking about the tennis court. So yeah, we like to get a nice aerial view of the tennis court to be able to just put it up on Facebook so everybody can see that it was there.
Yeah, it was surprising how much came out of there. We have when we opened records coming up. Well, when when we when the we when you had the historic tour, um the family that had the four sons that
lived in the house during the late 60s, early 70s remember the tennis court being there at that time. So maybe like 50 years. Yeah. So I mean there were trees growing through it.
It's crazy. But no, so that's what we plan. So yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for coming in. Yeah. Go ahead and I know you want to make the changes and resubmit and um and then we'll figure out if it needs to go back to this meeting or if we can do just a quick question. So the the shed
is going to be the same as submitted in this application. Any just comment on this is the shed that we say it's okay. I think do we have any issues with the shed or just so that's noted. Yeah, that's a good idea. Yeah, that looks
okay. Yeah, you're good to go with the sh Okay, perfect. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much for coming in. Very good. No problem. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you. Okay. The Rearens. Hi. How are you? Good. Thanks for coming in.
We appreciate you coming and we know your we recognize your application was an emergency and um you know it was it's much more um efficient in this sense for us since we're already here. Um so we appreciate you coming in and waiting you
know a week or two for for this. Um this is also like kind of a big deal for us because um the roof of this house is so pretty. Um Yeah. I guess by telling you why instead of restoring the slate
that's that'd be great. And I also just so you know too like so this is going to be helpful I hope you don't mind for us as as our committee. We're looking at a lot of these things for our design guidelines in the future. So this
discussion is kind of important for us also um in educating ourselves getting aligned on you know these synthetic materials as replacements um and um and yeah so it's you know it's
something that we're trying to evolve and become more modern as well. So Sure. No, that's good. And and I'll tell you a little bit about because you know my background. Uh I'm in I'm in building materials. Um I've done historic window replacement in New York City since
2003. So I've done work on the flat iron building, the Empire State Building. Uh Stan Hope Hotel across from uh the Metropolitan Museum of Art. And so you know I've made applications to the Landmark Preservation Commission in New York before. It's why I own a historic
homes. This is my fourth historic home. I owned one in Ocean Grove before this in 18 1895 Victoria, two two blocks from the beach and had to do restoration on that. Cool. Um, but I work for a building products manufacturer that makes roofing, too. Uh, so that's that
was the original application that I have for uh Grand Banner, which is on homes on Main Street, 135 Main Street. That's, you know, for sale now. Um the issue uh with that you know it's
asphalt and you know it's a simulated slate. So I'll start with that. I'll just show you those. Um this is the scallop slate
supposedly scallop slate. Those are two This is the one that I made the application for. I'll tell you why I didn't make the application for that. Um, this is what is up on now. In the very, if you look at the photographs,
you guys have photographs, right? Yeah. If you look at near the boxed gutter, uh, there is some square edge slate. Uh and then you'll see the scalloped slate above that which so in speaking so I I
traveled to PPE Vermont and I went to a wholesaler who sells called New England Slate. uh they work with a number of different quaries in New England and you know looked at what their recommendation was and when they looked at the photographs and they looked at the house
and they looked at the condition of the slate they said well this scallop slate was replaced much later and that the original slate is what you see in that first course nearest the boxed gutter that's the most damaged slate that's the
piece you're holding in your hand which was on the back of our toilet with a piece of, you know, candle burning on it for years because I said, "Well, we're not throwing that out." You know, that came off the house. Um, so it came in handy. Um, but so up at in New England
Slate, the gentleman Clay, uh, who's on the board of the National Slate Association said, you know, first I got a lesson in slate, right? There's ribbon slate from Pennsylvania. There's New England slate. He works uh with supply chain and in their quaries. they do
finishing there. So, while I was there, um, you know, he told me how they are able to, you know, somebody tells you slate isn't available, it's scalloped or it isn't, uh, can't be fabricated and cut and just reproduced exactly as it is on structures, they're telling you a
falsehood because they're reproducing this stuff in kind for Princeton University, for Harvard. You know, they do work all over the world. So, every roofer I talked to, she said, "Oh, you can't get it. You can't get it. You can't get it. Here's, you
know, here's this stuff from, you know, Renaissance. It's make out made out of plastic co Coke buns. Um, so this is what he recommended. This came out of a slate quarry in Canada. Let's hope to God this
happens before the terrorist hit. And he punched this right in front. We have one minute video. punching. It's on a rod iron press. When they when they when they knock it out from this side, these blow out and this becomes your nail
holes. This uh the roofer I'm working with, Rob Boyd. Uh yeah. Yeah. It's it's 30 million years old. Uh he fabricates all his own uh
downspouts, drip edges. This would be the drip edge. This is natural copper. So, this is going to patina. It's been out for like maybe I've had this for maybe a month now outside, but this will all go green. Yeah, it's really pretty. Yeah. Um,
the only place there isn't a box gutter is on the porch. It was built I don't know the Wagner built it. I think Bill couldn't tell me maybe 1976 something like that. It's got a 1776 stone in the masonry. So like I'm guessing it was built around the bsentennial. So they
went ahead and put something in there. That's the only place where there's going to be anything but a box gutter reproduced. Uh, it's over the side porch of the house. And then like I'll probably be in front of you guys about siding and
porches soon because I think the aluminum siding should come off the house. There's a lot of detail under there. Uh, but it's going to be a lot of work. U, I mean, I could pass this around too. If I was here, here's Go ahead, please.
I'm a little confused about what it is you're proposing to do. Are you Yeah. To put in everything, the entire roof. Oh, except for the low but where the shingle now. This is what you're
proposing, but not in the fish scale form just square. Oh, it's not. You're saying that the the square cut was original, which is what you're seeing at the box cut. That's what you're proposing, correct? Okay. Yeah. And what I'm seeing also there was, you know,
interestingly, so I'm researching a house right around the turn of the century. Uh there was a renovation done where they uh the town's uh application to the National Preservation Historic Register. Thank you. Yeah.
National Historic Register in 1980 says that the columns were there was a renovation done at the turn of the century. I replace the columns on the porch on the columns. They put the scallops on because it's not a queen. It's beautiful. I love it. That's
why one of the things I love about house not what I learned this. So this roof was pushing really hard. Um it's light, right? You know
that he Rucker Ruckers has used it. Oh, has I'm sure as well. Is it Renaissance? Da Vinci. Is it Da Vinci by Renaissance? It is at Ruckers. Yeah. So, okay. So, the roofer was
really and and he's I don't know if I shared the farmhouse photos. There was one with natural slate, one with uh one with that. And there's a huge like co there's there's some standing seam copper uh and it's it's in it's under
construction. Maybe that wasn't shared. At any rate, it looks really good. I don't know, you know, look, asphalt is really time tested. We all know what it's going to do. It lasts 30 years. I don't know what that stuff's going to do. I don't know what's, you know, does it crack? Does it curl? Does the UV
break it down? Does it does it, you know, it meets, you know, Miami date, hurricane? you know, I'm I'm in building materials. I know there's failures out there. I, you know, just went when I was up in Plymouth, I, you know, sat in on uh the Construction Specification
Institute an entire hour on failures, you know, on building failures and unintended consequences. So, you know, this stuff just hasn't been around long enough for me to be comfortable to put it on my house, and that's why it's not part of my application. It looks really good, don't get me wrong, and it's
lighter and it's cheaper. But the majority of this work actually is in the tear off. It's in the tear off. It's in the dumpster. It's in the, you know, uh, they're tearing this down to the L of putting down new plywood and
ice and water shield at 30 pound. And there's a lot that goes into this before you put the shingle on top, you know. So, uh, in my estimation, you know, I would I would consider asphalt more strongly if it was the right size. It's not the right size.
It's only something like nine inches. You know, those are one foot. You know, the massing is just totally different. You know, when I look at 135 North Main, I look at it, I'm like, okay, I'm from standing from the street, you're hardressed to tell this is just a builder grade three tab shingle that
somebody threw on a house. And that's what we're seeing right there. And believe me, I What is the What is the Garrett? How many years does this last? I don't I mean, I stopped researching that I got my Okay.
Nobody knows. So it's like like the same as like the same type of guarantee as asphalt, maybe a little better. So this is built, you know, this is this is this is built up that's probably that's probably three times what a
normal. So anyway, I mean that's kind of my thought process. I think where I've landed is the is the natural slate in the rectangular what appears to be the original configuration. I would like that approved also just in case Canada, you
know, something comes up. Um but it's really I'm really very strongly leaning towards the natural slate uh from the uh from New England slate. This is thank you for so much for this presentation. Um this is really helpful
um information for all of us. Uh do we want to start with some questions? I know I can tell you guys probably all have questions. I can kick it off and say um so the um the homeowners application said
replacing with the asphalt, but then it also says the other slate as well. So I guess it's I'm just I just want to make sure I'm clear about like which one is it is it
what you were saying is that you are you're not actually this may need to be revised right the application the applications is asking this is sort okay so yeah I think we might need to like just update this but okay I just want to make sure that there's no like confusion
um so we're recommend you're recommending that we um move from the scalloped uh slate to that one. And that one is because obviously the other one is not available. And also we
believe that historically this is um consistent with the the house. Okay. The scallop is available. It is it is available. Yeah. If you go to, you know, Pney, Vermont, you know, you can see the the tooling and the and the and the and
the press where they actually shear uh that slate and turn it into scalloped piece. Okay. Every roofer uh in the Northeast will tell you it's not available, but it but it is. Okay. Yeah. I'm I'm really glad you're here because this is this is different from what we had thought we were going to be asked
this evening. So I um we we had done some preliminary research because we had heard that um people didn't think it was available and so we were we were kind of looking around at our past applications to figure out what the story is. Well I well I So what I have and I can share is
uh is is the tooling. It's it's it's okay. Um, yeah. Well, I'll share it with Gina afterwards and then you guys will have it on file because what they were set up to do was what's called clip corners so that um, you know, and and it's just a it's a
very it's a very it's a shear and oddly, you know, you'd think this stuff would just shatter and break, but it doesn't. It's like it's quite strong. And kind of like when they're milling wood, there's a guy in, you know, probably the most valuable guy at the quarry is the guy who can read the stone and they know how
to get the yield out of the stone. Okay. So, the homeowners are okay. Um the homeowners are aware of this that there is like um you can obtain it. Um the um a slate that is exactly like what had
been before on the roof, but that um we would want to try to go back to go to this one to fit the more of the historic integrity and that's what they're which is on the starting course. Yes. By the box which is on the starting course. Exactly. So I have a question. So the
the replacement slate roof is going to go on top of plywood. Yes. Is there any So it's directly on the plywood. Is there any thing underneath that? Oh yeah. No, there's uh Okay. So the uh there's the box
gutter and for the first three feet you get uh something called ice and water shield and then there's 30 pound felt in the rest of the field. Um yeah. So there's no ventilation. Yeah. But in a traditional slate roof application,
it's not done on plywood. It's done on stringers. Exactly. This is But I'm sure that's what I was thinking. Okay. Grace. And there it not that I don't think the roof is big enough that this would be
done, but is there any evidence that there may have been graduated spacing on the slate roof because it's some larger slate roofs. The the slates closest to the bottom are thicker and with bigger
exposure, and as they go up, they get thinner and smaller exposure. And it's all for perspective and all that kind of stuff. Well, that's interesting. It's not a big roof, so I wouldn't expect that that would be the case. I that I that I don't know. So, this was
important, too. So, you know, the reason you arrived at this 12 by 24 is you have three inches of headlap and then you get 10 and a half inches and 10 and a half inches gives you 21. So, 24 minus three, you got 10 and a half inch overlap. That's the massing on the roof. Now,
yeah. So that so that we're keeping um if it was always like that that there's just no way to tell. Yeah. I mean unless somebody's got a got a good I doubt a roof this side would be just cool. Okay.
Um, one other just common thing we always ask everyone when they're looking to replace is um what what led you to believe that this roof needed to be entirely replaced versus repaired? Like
um I mean I see that there was there was a little bit of smaller things done um with the rectangular ones stuck in some spots where they I guess the slate broke. Um, but if if you guys can obtain, you know, in Canada, the gentleman who can cut it out and and
replace it, um, would wouldn't that be more affordable for the homeowner? Um, just just to be clear, I am the home homeowner. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. No, that's okay. No, you got me before because Yeah, I started getting
confused. No, no, that's okay. Um, yeah. So, that's where we started. So where I started this was was really just looking to replace the low slope areas that were really the problem most problematic areas. They were bad. You know I knew they were bad. We we made some you know
some repairs. Um but what you know when you get into these box gutters when you get up to the slate roof the box gutter area is al has al had also been repaired. And so, you know, once once we got up there and
started looking at the condition, you know, no roofer is going to to put their hands on it is is effectively now, you know, the L is in good shape underneath and then their cedar uh shake and you know, I said, "Hey, why are we tearing
that off?" You know, so finally we arrived that the L's in good shape. You've got the joist, you've got the L that runs perpendicular to the joist. Then you've got the the the the, you know, they're they're not going to put a slate roof over the potentially
150 year old uh cedar shake. They're just not doing it. So, you know, we're back to plywood and 30 pound paper and grace ice and water shield and modern materials. You know, uh the the flat roof areas is a rubber rubberized EPDM
roof. Uh, you know, it's just what it is. And and unfortunately, yeah, I started as you did saying, well, that's not leaking. I don't want to touch that. And then as we got into it, the only reason
that we don't have, you know, mold and water in our basement and all the other problems that you have when you have a roofing leak roof leak is because it's an old farmhouse and water can get out. It can get in, but it can also get out. Yes. which, you know, so one one of the building science guys, you know, made
the joke, you know, now they're building with, you know, buildings with, you know, paperface, just gypsum instead of plaster. And they said, you know, not even the three little pigs built their house out of paper. Yeah. And it looks like there are several spots. This is not just like I think what you're what
I'm taking away is that this is not just like a couple little leaks. This looks like you have damage like going everywhere. So like there's multiple leaks it's shot. I mean this is really kind of like not my conclusion but the conclusion of the of the roofers you
know and I we knew we we knew the uh you know the other areas were shot. I started this by saying we're not touching the slate, you know, but we need to work on the box gutters and I want new downspouts and I want, you know, I want I want it tightened up. And the answer was Chris, we can't do that,
you know, because, you know, this is shot. It's been, you know, it and I think if you look at it too, you know, because the original slates as old as the house, 1865, you know, even then there it's already, it's already gone through a cycle once, you know, that somebody
renovated and said, you know, in the turn of the century and said, "Hey, this place is 45 years old. It needs some attention. It needs something." So, I have questions. Um, did you already say like what are you doing for like the ridge? Is it
going to be metal? Is it just going to be There's a start. So, there's a starter slate. There's a starter slate, but my It's slate all the way to the top. It's not like it has like an element there. Um, you know, the only flashings I think
that you're going to see are like, you know, some copper flashings that are going to go up, you know, maybe six, eight inches on the chimney. On the chimney. Okay. Um, and are you doing the, uh, the snow eagle things? Oh, uh, no, because you know, no,
because there are the gutters, you know, there there's there's a there's, uh, there are porches, right? Uh, really, so there's no there's no danger of snow kind of sliding off to Yes. snow eagles in the picture. Snow eagles. Okay. I was
just wondering about any fancy detailing or where we're going to see the copper. So, okay. Any other questions? Okay. So, you had expressed how much you appreciated the scalloped design. Um, I think it's been on the house long enough
that if you felt strongly, I don't think we would force you to go back to the rectangular design. I don't So, if if if you really did prefer the scalloped, I think you could keep that. Yeah. No, I appreciate that and I I we thought about it and you know because I went on this
you know hey they're gonna you know this has to match in type size configuration shape right so I you know I went down that road and when I kind of learned that it wasn't original to the house now I'm like okay well then I I can let that go. Um now when we get to like you know
the the you know the ionic columns that aren't original to the house I think I'll live with that you know I think that's now that was like hey this was part of the history of the house. was changed one time just like Betty Wagner put a uh you know above the the front door there's a stained glass window that that is an original to the house but you
know hey I like that there so you know that's the we're going to we're going to live with those things and you know the hope is to get to the next level where we're you know there's look there's T11 siding on the back of the house that needs to get the hell out of there you know so there's there's some there's some work to be done but this is the
beginning you know we got to we got to get it dried in and then you know we're going to do it we're doing it once, I'm going to do it right. I'm really leaning towards the slate. Like I said, the only the only, you know, the only real question, I guess, is, you know, maybe
not for me, you know, is this is is this kind of stuff is this stuff that the board? I can leave these two. I mean, I can get them back to ABC Supply, but if they never see them again, they'll live. You know, if the board wants those, um, you know, I've got some literature for
it. But I I I think actually, you know, if we can approve the slate, I I don't need the asphalt approved. I'm not trying to complicate matters. You know, I'm 99% sure that that's what I want to do. If if the slate, if this becomes unavailable for some reason and we have
to come back here and talk again, we'll do that. But I think, you know, for now, I just want that so I can pull the trigger on that and get the contracts in place so, you know, so I can have my roof done. I mean, I just I we should mention there have been a couple of houses in town
with scallop slate and it was repair. Just so you know, we have a precedent. We do have we did approve a certainteed carriage house. Y that one on 42 South Main Street. Okay. And on 101 North Main Street, the yellow house on the corner,
Plansboro Road and Main Street, that was a synthetic. I don't know what brand it was, but it was a synthetic scalloped. Okay. Well, that looked good. Yeah, they did a nice job on that. It won't last as long as that, though. Yeah, I think. But
it was less I mean, the synthetic, like you said, is less expensive than the real slate. So, yeah. Yeah. So, in in looking at I didn't find a a a scallop synthetic because the Da Vinci doesn't make one. Maybe they don't. Yeah. I don't know what it's um this was like it
was ago I think too that we did it and and so they may not be offering it anymore but we can certainly find um it actually to me doesn't look as good as the heavy asphalt but I think you know I'd be happy to
approve the slate in the rectangular configuration. Oh, it was just so you know, I think it was Echoar Empire. That was a synthetic synthetically approved. So like um it was that PET that was the PLA, that was the plastic
material, I believe. So yes, I hope it you know, look, I don't know. I I don't know. You know, the slate guy was obviously biased, but he you know, he said he had replaced a few already.
It curls. the cracks, you know, it fades. Yeah, I just mentioned it. It is No, in case you find that it's not available, then there are alternatives to Yes. the real stuff. Might not be my last roof. You know, I mean, I'm getting
up there, but it's great that, you know, you have such experience with these types of projects and we're excited to hear too that you're, you know, hoping to do also other things like the siding and everything like that. you're welcome to come back again even to do a concept review too with us. Okay? Like before
you even you know um because we can you know for example if you're looking to do something we can like what we did was we pulled like you know the applications we could remember from the past where it was a similar situation. Um so yeah but I think we're after the same things. I
mean, like, you know, I didn't move here to buy a historic home to do the wrong things to it, you know, and it's just uh and it's good that we're not, you know, I don't know. It's good that it's good that you guys are here doing the work and I appreciate your volunteering to do this, you know. It's like, you know,
this is really important. Um, so yeah, thanks and thanks for hearing me out, too, because I feel like this was like I I was sweating the journey, you know, and I was like, okay, well, I want I want to make sure that we get this right and I have the information. I didn't like the information I was getting from uh the roofing community because I think
they like simple, you know, they like what's available locally. They like what the distributors carry. But when I got up there, I was like, "Oh yeah, well, I heard you, you know, this this isn't available." It's like, "Oh, no. I'll show you the press where we This is where we fabric. This is where we do that value ad process here. That's why
they're a wholesaler, you know." So, none of this stuff is on in in a yard anywhere. Even that certain teeth stuff, I mean, it comes in 12 colors. Trust me, when you go try to get the color you want and the shape you want, the shingle you want, it's it's it's a this is, you know, you're waiting for it to be manufactured. It's not sitting in a yard
somewhere. So, they're always going to tell you, "No, it's not available. It's not available." That's their first move. Yeah. Um I think I think we could make this into a vote. Um, and I think what we could do is we can vote to approve the
um the slate and then if you find that the slate is not available or you're not you have trouble obtaining it from Canada or whatever, then what we can do is work on the back end to you know um you can research these other ones that we kind of had before as a precedent where it's like a synthetic slate that
would also um you know you know we work to find another alternative. Would that be fair? No, that's fine. Yeah, because I think this is where I want to go. So, you know, I mean, the next one would be the Grand Manner, which is, you know, in the color, in the shape, but as I said,
the scale is wrong. When I look at 135 North Main and I see that up on the roof, doesn't look like slate to me. Looks like asphalt. That's where I'm at. I I would say I personally feel the same about that. I would I would make a
motion to that effect. Um, okay. So, let's make a motion to approve the slate for second. All right. Roll call for HPC 250-258 North Main. Miss Sutmmeer, yes.
Miss Ryan, yes. Mr. Guyire, yes. Mr. Hull, yes. And Miss Marlo, yes. Thank you. Motion passed. Good luck with the project. Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for coming in. This was really Thanks.
Great. Okay. Um so our next application that um is a fence and the um the owner couldn't be here this evening, but we have some like a super detailed application um which I think um you guys had a
chance to review. Um we can just go through it um briefly. And I mean it's it's a very it's very detailed um in terms of when you look at the pictures. And so we looked at this house um a few months ago. They were ones
um on Main Street where they were changing their driveway a little bit to fit your car in. Um and so now they're working on a fence and they're looking to do a cedar fence in the back um that encloses the lawn in the back. Um, and
the there's also going to be a fence. It's visible from the street, but that's going to be a 4 foot high uh straight top Victorian spindle fence. Um, and then they have a portion of the fence that's going to be a split rail um
with black wire um matching the neighbors um and that would not be visible from the fence. And then so what they did was they put in um um a bunch of pictures and I just want to wanted I I I was about to
approve this on the back end, but I wanted you guys to look at it because um I just want to make sure that you know we feel comfortable with with how this is and especially with the mix matching of materials and fences. It's something I'm just not as comfortable
with. So I wanted to get your everyone's take on that. Um, but it looks like what they did in the picture is very helpful. They um they drew a line to kind of show where the fence would be. So I think in the first picture you see their new
driveway and you see where that Victorian fence would be and then in the back is where they would be doing um the split rail. The one thing I'm not sure about
is they show the uh Victorian cedar across, you know, going from the house to the left. I'm not sure if that's the case on the right side of the house as well. It looks like
um which is drew facing, but I can't I on this diagram. Oh, it shows on when you're looking at the house on the left side and the right side facing the street will be Victorian spend. Okay, got it. Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, I see it. All right. Yeah. And they're I think you're matching the neighbors. I'm I'm glad they're using the smaller posts, too. They're using 4x4s instead of 6x6. The 6x6 looks very chunky in the photo.
It's the thing about it is what I think it's also kind of me partially being concerning is because like that house used to have a really big tree. Patel had it and then they removed the tree and I remember it like it opened up a lot of that that property and so I've
always felt like that house was always very like exposed and you can see a lot from the street as you're driving by. That's why I was like wondering I'm like thinking will we be able to see it from the street and um like it's it's interesting because like in this first picture you can kind
of you can see you might think you could see it from here but that's only if you drive up the driveway but then when you look at this picture this is why it's really helpful to have like this picture here where you see the house from the street you won't see it because the fence is in
the way. Yeah. Yeah, actually exactly the fence will block any view of on the right side of the house. You won't even I mean the landscaping barely see it. Yeah, that's too Yeah, because it's bush. You never know.
The bush might die. Hopefully not. Right now it's a big bush. Okay. All right. Um so we're good with this. We're good with the size of the fence. um back gate to match it. Yeah. Um Okay. All
right. Then I will make a motion to approve. Second. All right. Roll call for 95 North Main application. Miss Sutmire. Yes. Miss Ryan. Yes. Mr. Guyer. Yes. Mr. H. Yes.
And Miss Marlo? Yes. Thank you. Motion passed. Fantastic. All right. Next, we have minor and ordinary maintenance, repair, and approvals. Yeah. So, there were only, well, really kind of only one um 108 Plainsboro Road um for a window
replacement. And then I just figured I'd add this on. Um the concept review that you guys had in I think January of this year for Nine Park Place, um they went to the zoning board and they were approved. So, then they officially kind
of went through and um we signed off on them kind of starting their project. It's the same. There's no changes from when you guys had the concept review. Yeah. So, just thought I'd add it. We also have an application in process in my inbox for the barber shop uh for
their sign. They built the sign already and put it out front. Yes, I saw it as I was dropping by. Um they already put up the design. I see the sign. Yes. Yeah. Oops. We don't know. Somebody else
will. It looks It looks It looks like it's consistent. It looks like it's on wood and it's like a couple of colors. It's not anything crazy. So, I have to double check, but I'm gonna I'll probably approve it. Yeah, it's already out there. Yeah, I brought it. Yeah. Um,
so we have that else going on. Um, okay, good. All right, so next we can move on to all of our old business. Um, okay. So the first item is our amendments to the village historic district. Um so first off um we have
okay we have let's start with talking with the plan about the planning board thing because that is happening in June and so that's I feel like for us that's once that happens we're going to
kick this in in in together you know um we're going to move quick with this um so I know it's going to be summer but I'm hoping that maybe we can try to get this going because I just want to get this momentum going so we can try to get
this done before the end of the year. Um, and so in terms of the research, we did the survey and we got like two responses which is really sad. Um, so we're going to work on doing an applica,
a a homeowner letter to every homeowner in the historic district and buffer zone to ask them to fill it out because I just do not feel comfortable putting this on All about Cranberry right now. Um, given the recent dialogue, I just think that we're going to get
annihilated for no reason. So, um, it's just not the time to ask about the historic district guidelines. Um, so I'm gonna do a letter and Dino was like, bless her heart, she's like looking at figuring out how
we can, you know, send something to everyone. Um, so that's an action item and I will I'll own that. Um, the interviews with the architects, how are we going with those? Did you guys finish that? You did? Yeah. Yes.
So, I was just reading through the uh the meeting minutes and all these great suggestions that were made and I'm like, what happens next? So, that's kind of my question. So, in the minutes, it talked about
um uh let's see, uh signage as a section of the design guidelines to help property owners. um a have a link in the certificate of approval application to the design
guidelines. Um for larger projects having a requirement for a massing model um and making sure street context is included and then um there was a talk about specific requirements for
lighting. Oh, lighting. Um, and so those are, you know, a good handful of, uh, items that maybe we should take the next step on. Okay, that's fantastic. Okay, so as far as our
plan of action goes, I think we need to get the homeowner feedback soon. I know we were all kind of looking at design guidelines um together, you know, looking at different towns design guidelines.
Um, I'm almost thinking that once we get through the planning board meeting and we kind of have that green light to go, I'm thinking we have like some sort of a working session or something and maybe we maybe we work in pairs or something
offline and then kind of come together and we can kind of consolidate everything all together. Is that something you guys think we could do maybe? What's the what's the goal? The goal would be um to basically identify how we
want to update our guidelines like where we want to like we'll take our existing guidelines and we'll work on where we're going to add information, change information, delete it. Um yeah. Um I wish I still had like Adobe
Advance on my PC. I don't anymore because we could just like crazy do a team's like working like session with the whiteboard. So Jen, the other piece that I think goes with this that was done
uh there was a copy of like a booklet of Granberry Village historic district design guidelines. Uh I don't have a copy of it with me but it's uh it gave example you
know of fencing roofs porches some p different pictures of house I think that's the document that we're talking about that's not working on that yet I'm sorry we're not on that yet I got that's
the one okay I don't think we should be using that as our base document I think we need to be using chapter 93 as our base document because that's the one We're asking the TC to make changes to I mean it's a good reference document. Yeah. And and it to depending on what if
the amount of changes it may or may not make anything outdated in the nice document with the photos it will that should come later. That shouldn't be tied to actually chapter 93. Okay. So we so you so what you're saying Brendan is
you think we should actually first have like individual working sessions on chapter 93. Yes. And just make sure we're all aligned pair. And I think I think if we work in pairs, it's just going to be funner um and more efficient it to just come together and and say,
"Okay, you know, let's just go through it and say we're okay." Um well, I think we have three sets of potential sources of where changes might come from. One would be from the architects, one would be from homeowners, and one would be anything that a commission member has
identified. And so if we're going to split up uh then maybe we split up in you know in I in bringing the right so so making the changes to reflect the feedback from those three groups separately. I see what you're saying. Yeah. And how we go about it to in
totality as a commission we would have to review all of those proposed changes like right. So we would separately we could actually draft changes to chapter 93 implementing the feedback from th those different groups but then as a commission in total we'd have to decide
whether or not we want we agree with those changes whether they should uh adjust those changes things like that. Okay. Um Okay. So I I like that approach. I that actually I think that that's a great idea and because already you guys have been working on the
architect stuff. So maybe it's like well Sue and I can hash out volunteer we could team together to go through and make modifications or recommendations based on what we heard from the architects. Exactly. To Yeah. As said, yeah, two other teams could do to do
homeowners and um and then just looking at um other design guidelines from other towns. Um, and then to finish it up, finish it up, that booklet I was referring to, the design guidelines that has pictures. Yeah, we need to clean that up because there's different
sections. Some give examples and others give, well, you can't do this, this, that, that doesn't give a positive example of what you can do. So, there's some inconsistencies in that. Okay. So, so we'll start with um chapter
93 and um so like for example, Guy and Sue will represent changes to chapter you know feedback into chapter 93 based on what you've heard and then um you know when I when we get homeowner feedback I can
work with whoever we can go comb through that incorporate that into 93 and then we can also research see if there's anything else that we've seen in other towns who have updated their guidelines. Like again, I think it was that one town in New Jersey where we saw their their guidelines were very similar to what we
had um and they were updated. So, we see kind of like how they updated them um and see if we want to incorporate that into chapter 93. And I think do you think Brendan we should do this in a separate meeting or do you think we can accomplish this here in this time? I
mean it's it's would take a while I think. If there aren't a lot of applications, we probably could just incorporate it into the meeting. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We have two weeks until the TC meeting. Is that correct? June 5th is what I'm hearing.
The um the planning board meeting. A planning board meeting. Okay. Yeah. And what what do we need to have ready for the planning board meeting? Oh, we're ready to go for that. It's all set. Nothing. We don't even have to be there. Um famous last words. Famous last words.
I know. No, Evelyn's still gonna be there, right? Oh, but we but I we talked to him. We we talked Wayne. Wayne and Brendan talked to Wayne. They love Brendan. Brendan. Um Brendan, you gonna come?
I heard we don't have to be there. Okay. Okay. So, no. Are they looking to ask more questions? I didn't think they were. I feel like Oh my god. I don't know what else they could ask us. Okay. So then I I think I'll zoom in. Um Okay.
Um, so then what I'll do is I'll I'll send us some like recap from this meeting and what we can just and I'll just recap kind of what we're agreeing to do which is that we're going to start working on you know looking at the language in 93 getting that how we like it and then
what we'll do is we'll work on that but we also sub you know at the same time again we got to get the homeowner feedback in we need more than just two people so I'm going to prioritize getting that in for us. Okay. All right. Great. Um, CG Grant, any updates on
that? That's a big question because Lori was asking me last last week any updates and I asked Gina and she just asked me this morning and I haven't heard anything. So, I guess the the deadline has changed since again. Well, we were supposed to hear Lori thought we were
supposed to hear beginning of May. Yeah. But if the CLG grants were awarded and we haven't heard anything that dead silence. Yeah. So, we're just gonna have to wait and see. All right. Just one more. It may be
dependent upon federal funding. So, I think that's the big I've been hearing that certain state preservation offices u that rely on federal funding for staffing are cutting people left and right. So,
Okay. But I've heard nothing from New Jersey. Okay. Um, next item on our agenda is the Cranberry Station Historic District Certificate of Eligibility. I do have an update. I did receive from Andrea at the state. I got the application that was done to get the um
corridor designated. So, next step is to start I'm going to use a lot of that language and we're going to start banging it out. Try to get it in. We got to get this in. So, yeah, I think we're we're we have a plan now. We just need the time. We got a little distracted
last couple last month or two, so try to get back on track. Um, okay. Next item, identifying, designating historic sites outside of the district. Okay. 1860 farmhouse. Thank you everyone for coming
to the meeting that we had with TC uh last month. Um that was a really emotional meeting and um uh very a lot of attendance and pretty good. Um I
um heard from I think in the township committee meeting people were inquiring about what was what next steps were. Um because we actually we ended the meeting without really any next steps. Um and the our mayor had said that the next steps were for the family to decide what
they're going to do next. Um and that um she had wanted um information from us. And so I sent an email to her. Um I copied Rob Robert and Sue and Gina and I basically um I provided them with an
outline of what's missing from their engineering reports that we need, especially a survey of the old house. Um, I also laid out some um a long list um and Sue helped me identify some um cultural historic resource uh
consultants who could do a cultural assessment because again I think what was really missing from that meeting was like what does this how does this impact our town with this um property being um raised? Um and I think a study like that
would be a really good comprehensive next step. Um, I also said, however, though that it would probably be better for the homeowners instead of putting their resources toward that research and building this case for demolition if
they would spend their resources working to preserve it and restore it and working with us. So, I reiterated that in our email. Um, and I also reiterated that we agreed with what um, Chip said in the last TC meeting is that the um,
roof is leaking and the family testified that they know that it's leaking and that there's a hole in it. It's causing damage and that's a violation of zoning codes or building maintenance codes and that it would be really good for them to
address that. So those were the those were the points I communicated to the mayor. So I provided her with the information she requested plus a little bit of feedback from us. Um and we also want to know what could
be salvaged exterior wise. Yeah. And that should be like in the engineering report. Yeah. That's what was missing. That's what we were asking for. Yeah, it should be in the in the historic structure report that we're requesting like all those other features that are
outside of not just the structural system. Yeah. What's the condition, the windows, everything? Yeah. Everything. Yeah. Um, so, you know, editorially, I just feel really sad. You know, I really hope that the family will reconsider their
how they're putting their resources towards lawyers and, you know, experts to build a case to demo this when, you know, they could just Oh, I also mentioned that, you know, we see a lot of contractors that come into our meetings that work on historic houses
and I know that the um, you know, the family testified that there was no one to help them and that you know the people he called didn't want to work on the house but I mean I think there we've seen a lot of people come through here who work on historic houses who would
probably be happy to work on it and especially you know the importance of the house. So I made that point as well and hopefully you know the family will you know reconsider like coming in and working with us and you know we can't recommend you know people but we we work
these people are in records and have submitted permits and there's they're here they're out here they're there. So so yeah does anyone have any other updates on the 1860? It's in the family's hands now. It's in
the family's hands. They're supposed to come back if they want to continue to they need to come back with some with a I guess a if they're going to still continue with their ask to demo and because then the township would have to
vote. Um, and then I mean I'm hoping that they'll come back and say we want to, you know, restore and then, you know, we can start doing concept reviews with them, you know, that kind of thing.
So, any other updates from any of y'alls? Okay. Um, okay. The next um is the overlap with the affordable housing. And so I know um you know we had
representation at the last TC meeting about affordable housing. Sue, you gave a a talk about that. What I meant to say was um besides the fact that we have the CLG grant for
our um agricultural and properties plus others outline the village district. um that preserving the structures, not just the farm houses, but the outbuildings,
the the sense, the vista, the viewshed of those pro of those properties is what we're looking to survey and protect. And so, as this affordable housing COA process is going on, that's going to
be our interest as well. Anyone have any other updates? Yeah, so these two properties are both in our master plan as historic sites and
currently the way they're zoned that doesn't give them any protections. But if they do change the zoning to uh residential, then um chapter 150 section 41 subsection D uh will apply to them
which uh says that when a track contains historic sites as noted on this says map X-1. I don't know if that was 10. This is probably referring to an old master plan. There is no map X-1. So, we're going to use map 7-1 and the the most recent master plan of the Cranberry
Township master plan. The structure shall be retained in the setting of these historic sites, shall be maintained by preserving the area surrounding the structure as required by the chapter 93 historic preservation. I I think probably the TC already knows that and so I think it's possible that
their plan is to preserve these structures and and because that's already what the the township code says. So wow that I didn't know that and that's that's really fascinating. You're such an expert with he is like our
code he's the expert. So I buy the book. So, one path forward with these two properties is, and I I don't have any more insight than anyone else has from observing the meetings, but restore those buildings, uh, preserve them, put
some affordable housing in there. There's a lot of acres across the two sites. And so, I looked at the two properties that were done on Route 130. Um, the affordable housing properties. We have the uh the Applewood uh property
from C that was built by CHA. Yeah. And uh that was uh 32 units on 3.81 acres. So that's 8.4 units an acre. And then the Willows and Birwood which was built by Ingramman was 90 units on 3.89 acres which works out to 23.1 units per acre.
So if the affordable housing was built with a density similar to the Ingramman property that leaves a lot of land available to both preserve the historic setting and
possibly even preserve as farmland like just doing the math you would need if it was built at the same density as Ingerwood you would need less than half the land to build the units at that density. So, I don't have any insight into the TC's plans, but that would be a
very nice way to, you know, to preserve what's there. Would you be able to like um make a summary like write this out in a summary for us so that we can kind of make sure we accurately depict this in
our minutes? Yeah. Okay. Um, I I think that um I love that and I feel like um it would be so great to save like I feel like I feel a an attachment to that gentle dealing Victorian because we
don't have many Victorians in our town. Um, we have I think we have like one like maybe two on Main Street that are not even as like Victorian as that one is as the gentle healing, you know. Um,
I feel like the gentle healing is like it it rivals the Victorians at Heightstown. And so I feel like losing that Victorian is would be a loss for our town and and the fact that our town represents diversity of architecture and
different eras and that makes me sad. And so I'm hoping that like maybe with you know cranberry um housing doing work that building has not been neglected. So you and it's it was a spa so you could
convert it um to like I think affordable housing and it would be very nice to have it in the if we put it in the front like and that way then because it's right there on the street it would help with the beautifification and then you put more you know if you need to build like
smaller affordable housings behind it. I feel like that'd be great. And like I've seen some communities um there's a community in Princeton by the Forestal area where they have some townhouse. It's a whole townhouse community from the 80s. But there's an original manor
house and it's still there. They saved that and and they use it I think as like it's like a love clubhouse. Yeah. Or something like that. And I feel like maybe we could do something like that. And then the same thing with um if they do farm housing uh or or affordable
housing at the the farm where the Oreo cows are um that farmhouse is really similar in architecture to um our Plainsboro Roadhouse and and and we don't have many of those either, right? Um of that structure. Yeah. So it's I I
think we could actually do the same thing for both spots. It would be like a win-win because we'd have the beautiful we would maintain a nicer streetscape. We'd have um you know um you know econ um environmental like you know
sustainability instead of tearing it down. We would you know rehab it and then it would be um you know there you know a nice way to sort of also allow for setback for the affordable housing um larger structures behind. So, I don't
know. That's my vision if we have to do this. I still think we have too many units that we have to build. But, um, yeah, the question, one question is I was thinking of if we're told this is
these are the last properties that we can put for housing, what happens when we have round five? I know. I was thinking about that too. Round five. Yeah. because like and you're looking at the farmhouse and across the street from
it is open area in Cranberry. So I'm I'm assuming I don't know for a fact if you have water and sewer running on Cranberry South River Road that you can use for this farmhouse property to make affordable housing. You can't do that across the street and you can't get that
property. I wonder if that's something we we don't know what these properties we don't have to list the properties. When are we going to say like no mas like I guess is the question because if we because but one thing ser what infuriates me is I
went to this presentation at the library on affordable housing and that Mark Bowski gave um a few people from here where and he showed a list of all the affordable housings in all the towns and like there's cities that are missing a lot of affordable housing um that have like um a deficit like you know most of
the major cities in in New Jersey and so Like Camden was like,200, like Newark was like negative 500, and then Cranberry's at zero. And so then in the next round, the state gave them zero to build because they have the deficit. But then because we're
at zero, they get to get add, you know, 260 to us. And so if we just keep if you keep like if you keep giving and giving, they're going to keep contributed to build affordable housing. I think Perth Amboy was it in the first round or two?
Yeah. So, we didn't have to build as many paid to do that. I I think um it's a shame because I mean I know we're we're the historic preservation and I think I know we have to stay in our lane. Um, but I do hope that like um hopefully
this um there's you know this affordable housing process continues and that like you know once but then when the town has the next step that you know they can include us like in the subcommittees and stuff like that like maybe we can have a role with it. I mean that thanks for
coming. I mean that was the the other thing Rob if you want to bring this back to the township committee but um HPC as as as a resource for historic properties and since these two historic properties
were being under consideration that we were clueless on this as far as selection yes not even an input like what about we're think we're thinking about these two properties yeah I think they got they got depri it just
we got dep prioritized and it's it's not it wasn't personal I don't think it was just they had enough to deal with I mean Lisa was our liaison for a year I know that's why I don't think it was personal though I think it was like I think I
think they were just there's no question yes they were just you know it ends up being factor in the discussion right however I think once we get to planning
projects etc you guys after we can't essentially plan to build things yet we don't Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I think you're we're uh we'll keep this on our agenda just so we don't forget about it and and I guess we'll just keep our ears open too as like this affordable housing process gets communicated because I definitely think, you know, I think we have a role in it. Um, and you know, especially with
these two that we're researching, I know I have a vision for how I know. I feel like there's got to be a way. The other thing with connection to town on that other side across from the farm out, come closer to the uh corporate center, the sidewalk starts.
Yeah, there's so many questions closer to town. The farmhouse has no sidewalks on the other side of the street. I had someone ask me and I couldn't answer. said, "Why don't why aren't we just taking over an old empty warehouse and converting it to affordable housing
because they already have like septic and stuff?" I couldn't answer that because I'm like I'm the history. I don't know. But yeah, it's I don't know. So, okay. All right. Um, so next, let's
we'll move on um to Revolution New Jersey. Any updates on Revolution New Jersey? That's so disappointing. We need to have we need to celebrate. Okay. Okay. I feel like we got to do more. Is
that a Is that a Halloween season type of thing or Okay. I think that'd be really cool. Um, okay. Next we have public outreach. um I don't have any updates on
the communications this month. I will next month. Um or on the website um any updates on the interactive map? Uh it's kind of nerdy, but I did some search engine optimization for some of the property reports, but nothing that's
that interesting. That's cool. That's awesome. Um cranberry day application. I know Gina talking. Yeah, I wanted to ask about this actually. Um, I have it ready to get sent with the uh payment for it too. But I wanted to
ask, so uh I wanted to ask what the specific description of your display should be because all I know about it is that we have tape measures at this moment. So I don't want to write that. Yeah,
our budget is limited. I was what if we did something revolution New Jersey like like made it like a colonial theme or something. We could try to do something like get our tricorn hat.
That would be that would be so fun. Guy I can see you George Washington. I have a hobby horse if that would help. How about we all brainstorm um display ideas for the next meeting? Like let's brainstorm some what we can do next year. Next this year at Cranberry Day to
make it fun. It just says um August 1. Yeah, we have time. So yeah. And I also was wondering um I know you had said location next to Chips, but I don't know if there's a specific like on the street where you
want to be or just next to Chips. I thought I thought next to chips worked pretty well last year. So I don't It's not the same place every year, is it? No, we were kind of in front of somebody
assigns the places. So yeah, have chips and HBC next to each other. Yeah. So I wasn't sure. I mean, I can just write next to chips and hopefully they'll do that. Start thinking of the U. the the handouts that we can supplement
our tape measures with. What would be good this year? Yeah, let's let's brainstorm. Maybe um maybe on um next Monday when we're at the parade, we can kind of get some, you know, ideas. Uh I'd say at least 200.
Yeah, we'll figure it out. Put it to the side. I'm figuring if people got tape measures last year, they want something new and exciting this year. or not. The tape measures are awesome. We could bring the tape measures back.
Yes. So that they have a choice. Yeah. Maybe something for Remember, we had a lot of kids that came. So maybe we do like tape measures for the adults and maybe we figure out something for kids, you know? It would be good to find just find something gre
Exactly. something like Yeah. colonial. The kids regret because they kind of dragged their parents over to spin the wheel. Yeah, that's all they It was fun. That was It was really cute. Um Okay, so let's all brainstorm some ideas and we'll we'll talk about it more next
time. Um okay, library program is tabled till September, but um for the student um volunteer, I have an update. Um the woman I got in touch with the woman who does volunteering at at PHS and she said she is posting it our flyer so hopefully
we'll get some applications. That's good. Can Can uh can it go in the mayor's That was another idea too. I was going to ask if we could get it in again if it could go in the mayor's weekly. It was there like for one week. I think maybe we could ask them to do it a
little more often. Yeah. Yeah. I can ask and see if they'll like repost it in the mayor's. I think that'd be great. Yeah. Okay, cool. Um, oh, you know what we should also do? Maybe we put it in the kiosk as
well. If we have we have I know we have one flyer in there on concept reviews. Yeah, there might be room for putting in the kiosk. Okay. All right. Other business. Okay. So this is um this is our last big thing to talk
about which is um this this that we got. So um Metame mayor sent this to us. Um they formed a subcommittee and they are creating some design guidelines um for the town. Um and so they drafted
up this um and they would like our feedback. So this is really exciting. Um but someone who's working with me the mayor's subcommittee on um New Jersey
site pen and subdivision standards. I think it's the existing um chapter 150 just code and they just as a subcommittee they've been kind of working through it. Yeah. So I think this is what's there currently for the planning board and kind of zoning board
to use. Um, so they wanted your Yeah. And this is for new construction, right? It says it's for subdivisions and site plans. Know that it does. When I read through it, it does
seem to be more so focused on new material. Yeah, I think would think so. Um, what my biggest question is, what is the village planning handbook from 1980? So, I've been looking it up during the meeting because I suspected it was a a
public like a national publication, but I cannot find it. So, um it might be at the library and it's it's actually based on the date 1989 more likely to be local because that's when the local district was created. It'd be a
coincidence if it's also a national thing. Um but there there's a lot of old documents at the library uh in terms of like old master plans, old planning things. So it there there might be something there. I'm not sure. Okay. So
um what she had said is that um there is not a um a deadline yet with this yet. Um so we have time to look through this and digest it and um think through it. So what are they
looking for? Our feedback. So um I know that this this is a lot and and I think I know I personally kind of want to you know look at I want to compare to our um design guidelines even though they are referring they have a note that
says to refer to our design guidelines. Um, but what I was thinking is like if we have um we we ask them any questions that we have right now first um and then like review this over the next month and then next month let's
compare like put together any feedback that we have that way then because again we don't have it's not urgent yet. Um, so let's, you know, use our time to also make sure we understand exactly how this what what the intent of this is
and how it's going to be used. Now, it seems to mention both. It mentions existing and renovations and additions in historic districts. I think this is an artifact of there not being as many guidelines as we have today that
this was their first probably their first attempt or an early attempt. This is probably predates chapter 9. It's it's an education. A lot of it is an education for um the zone for people who are making applications because
apparently the planning board meetings are very long and a lot of the applications that get submitted are inconsistent or um incomplete. So that's why they so their idea is
to make sure that this document's buttoned up so that when applications are submitted it will eventually make the planning board meetings more efficient. Um so I'm sorry does this this exists
already and we're revising it? This this is in our code currently. Okay, that's good. Right. So, I guess as long as there as long as there aren't any inconsistencies, it's fine. Yeah. So, I guess that's what
we need to look at. I think that then that's what that's kind of then Yeah. Can we just like put a big X and say C chapter 19 you do by having two things, right? Okay. Because when you have two things, there's always the risk
of mistakes. Yeah. I mean, maybe maybe and if they're working with a partner like an external consultant on this like I mean we could say like hey let's just make sure this aligns to 93 but at the same time things can be interpreted. We we should probably be that checks and
balances as well like make sure that the interpretation is consistent with chapter 93. There are some things in here that are more specific than in chapter 93 like I noticed that too like the portion and scale limited to two and a half times the building height like the voids between the buildings. We
don't chapter 93. So I don't know if they still want to keep that specificity that I don't know. I mean that's definitely new construction. Yeah. But like remember how we had that one application that I didn't want to
approve because I thought that we were adding too much density um by building another building in. That's where this comes in because like our guide and I I remember I I didn't feel comfortable with it because I just was my gut. Um
but if we have a document like this and this is where it's stating like that if you um you need to maintain the same type of spacing in between uh different houses it justifies which is actually kind of like what we ended up doing when we approved it because we
said remember Maplewood has like a denser like an a certain amount of spacing and that one h one spot where there was an empty lot it it actually works to put another a new house there because it it represents the same spacing, but we
don't have that in our um HPC stuff. So, we were actually approving, but it actually, you know, uh in one section it calls out waste receptacles to be in the commercial district. So, super super specific and you know, very
very uh high level as well. Okay. So, does anyone have any other if you Okay, as you guys are reviewing it, if you have any other questions, um, let me know and and then I'll try to convey kind of what we talked about to um to Lisa and what we our initial
reaction was and then in our next meeting, we'll just put it all together. Okay. All right, you guys. I think we're almost done. We're in the home stretch. Um, public comment. No, no, no, no. Commission training. Oh, training. training mission commission training.
Sorry. All right. Sorry. Um so last month I promised lucky people that I would ask you questions. Um so I am in a panel discussion at the state history and historic preservation conference on June
5th date of the planning board. So um our our topic this year is tough calls considering and making decisions on applications as an HBC member. So, I'm supposed to sit up there and give my responses. So, I want some input,
please. Okay. So, I'm going to ask you four questions. Number one, how often do you have a complicated application and how do you approach decision making on those applications? And so, well, that was that was my comment here. So, these are notes from
our meeting. I'm like, is this a politically complicated application or a technically complicated personal or personal? Right. So, um any business with or somebody I don't like. So, if it's personal, then you
I would hope that we'd all kind of recuse ourselves either like either verbally or silently. If it's a technical I know what I always do like kind of what we did with the roof thing is try to figure out who else
knows more about it and kind of default to them or let them educate me on that. And I look for uh prior precedent like have we what have we approved in the past? Right.
And how do you find those? Do you ask Gina? It's all in your head. Okay. Something triggers. That's why I asked Gina to pull the file. Or if it's something like business, I usually recuse myself. That's if it's
a very controversial. Oh, wow. I haven't seen you do that. Have you done? But but that's where the failure of the uh state um shipo record for the properties when we get the CLG grant that information get it up
uploaded that there's no way for us to go back in and edit it for applications that we see and we can put the information in like they use this roofing this was a you know that's a really good point you know additional information for the history of the house
take care thank you um which would be very helpful for both the homeowner and for us. So we have a meeting, we could just pull it up. Well, this is what's done. Or we can search on, you know, roofing applications that have
roofing or windows or whatever. This is what we've approved or these are some cool, you know, but that database is just a snapshot in time that we can't go back in and edit. So we have paper folders until the next property 20 years
later, you know, when the uh the surveys are updated again. So if you could put that plug in at this state conference. Happy to do that. Um question two. Okay. Uh how do you approach and handle a
particularly particularly difficult applicant? So keep to the facts. I think the time limits that we did not have when we had a 45minute testimonial and then we did have the time limits
which caused a lot of I think u angst at the TC meeting that people only got three minutes but having experienced the very 45 minute test public comment. Yeah. Yeah. Any other ideas?
I only remember a few handful difficult applicants. I can remember again you've been doing it and I can remember one particular occasion where the incredibly rude to everybody in the room on the
table and I just said if you're going to stay in the room ask any question you want to keep civil tone of voice otherwise I'm gonna ask you to leave. Did it work? Yes, of course. Mrs. Bonnie, um I did notice in the TC
meeting um that I attended that um the uh committee or whoever who gave their monthly report was the police department and then the chief of police quietly sat down in the corner near Dave and stayed for the entirety of the meeting. Did I was impressed. I didn't know that was
the chief of police when he sat there. That was the only seat left. So what we should just make sure Yeah, I don't think that's an option for us. But I think one thing I feel like um when we've had difficult applicants and
when I whenever I work with difficult people, what I always try to do is um reflect back their what they're trying to say um to them, right? Yeah. like so for you know so what I'm
taking away and even even non-hostile people sometimes if I'm just trying to understand what they're trying to say I try to reflect back like so I say so I hear what I'm taking away is that you're interested in doing this and this is why and you're looking for that and so I
think sometimes if someone's being really hostile too and you say like it's what I'm taking away is that you feel angry that this is not being listened to and then they'll say, "No, I'm angry because of this." Or they'll say, "Yes, you're listening to me." So, sometimes
it's a way to like diffuse. But I know it hasn't always worked for us. Um, but all we can do is try. Yeah. And hope they don't come back. No, just kidding. Okay. Number three. How do you consider precedent setting when deciding on
applications involving alternate materials? That was a specific question. So we talked about precedents a little about what we've approved and alternate materials are a hot topic. Um I think my experience here has been
that precedents are like the basis of our decision making pretty much and we have to real and the uh interior department of interior has acknowledged that alternate materials can be acceptable
right because of what we have like again available like trim boards on houses because I have this an addition that was done 25 years ago. I have the bottom boards rotting pine
uh not touching water. There's no reason for it. They're rotting. So, I've replaced one vertical with like an Azac or something white. It doesn't look any different, but it's not fine. The rest of my house I have no rot in the 150
plus year structure. I do think it's a casebyase basis though. I'm thinking of the that house that had the the cedar shakes. Was it on Maplewood? I still didn't like that location, you know, and she wanted I still don't like
I just don't I I I personally think that sometimes I don't think that you should only do substitute materials because they're cheaper. Like I still think that um I thought she had another reason maintenance. There was another Yeah, it
was like people I know we've had like people who have said shown us that it's deteriorated and that you know you can't like use it and that I mean in that case you know but I think I always have hope that we can always still try to go
back and save what's old um because sometimes things might be old um but doesn't mean it's bad and and that's That's true. But if you do have to replace, you have to acknowledge the material like a like material. I'm just
going back to pine boards. The pine that we get is is soft wood. It's not the hard pine that's on the house and you're going to you're going to put it on if you're required to put it on and then in less than 10 years you're going to be
replacing it again. Yeah. Doesn't make sense. I personally rely a little less on precedence for for two reasons. One because the previous people who have volunteered in this role have made
mistakes and there have been properties that are have lost their historic materials and are no longer contributing because of changes that were approved through people who had volunteered before. So they didn't necessarily get it right. Uh and then the second reason I would defer a little less pre uh
precedence is that there are new materials that we don't we talked about the um the fake plastic roofing material right now it might may or may not look similar but 10 years from now we might see oh wow yeah that doesn't hold up and
so just because it was approved when we knew less about it doesn't mean we should continue to approve it at that point right so I think look at yeah re-evaluating Yeah, I think tonight was an example that exactly for us we yeah that the materials are constantly
changing and and reevaluating and that's why yeah we can't it's going to be difficult because like you know we had feedback that you know some homeowners say they want to know exactly what they need to get right but then if we put that in our design guidelines that you can get this and that I mean the problem is you don't know if that company will
be in business or something else new comes that's better or they find out it fails yeah things are always changing Okay, last question. How does I don't know if you know the answer to this. How does decision making
differ between HPC's that have consultants and those that don't? So I've served on both, right? Because I was on the Mount Holly HPC and they had a consultant and it was fantastic. What? Wait, how did that work? So how it works was the
applications would come in, they decide if they were major or minor. And if they were major applications, they would go to the consultant whose job was for the month to review the application, do a history of the property and and then
basically provide a a short report with recommendations and, you know, pointing out the the features and saying this is why I think we should do it this way. And then that would be the basis of discussion once like we would all we'd
receive that beforehand and then we would that would be the basis of our discussion during the during the hearing. It's interesting you said that because my two sons live in Newton, Massachusetts and they have a historic preservation and I was just curious and
they have an old old house and I was just looking at their HPC commission and I was looking at a a meeting agenda and just what you said it's a summary of each application and there's a they call it staff report and they what they
recommend or approve or whatever but that's not the ultimate say the commission uses this in their meeting and they make the final decision. So they have a paid staff that researches the house each property, the history and
all that stuff. So So the other uh panel members of my uh of my group uh do have consultants and they are stunned that that we do not. So I think we do pretty well without having Well, I feel like
for one thing we have Gina helps a lot. Gina serves is like I feel like part of that role. But then at the same time, I would wonder too though if we had a consultant. It's almost like that consultant is going to have a lot of
power in terms of how things get decided in the group because they're the ones that are kind of framing the application to No, the commission still has the ultimate say. I know but they're gonna but in the summary they're planning
doesn't planning board have an attorney that makes a recommend they kind of do the same thing like attorney engineer traffic consultant yeah they have all kinds of so it would be a similar yes situation but ultimately makes the decision based on the input they get
from the property owner and the consultants do the same What does the attorney do? Well, for one thing, when we were going from being an advisory committee to a commission, she reviewed all that. She
was she wasn't here in every meeting, but she was available to us, right? And that was a question is, right? And and that was one of the um items that was clarified because the the last member of our panel board is actually one of those
consultants. So she, you know, has a handful of towns where she serves in this role, but she said in some towns she's full-time. So every month she's doing, you know, whatever needs to happen. My guess those are bigger towns with complicated. They have an on call.
So there'd be a line item in our budget, you know, for x many hours of the consultant. And when we have a complicated application, we we would use them. And when we when they're simple or we have no applications, we don't. So,
um I thought that was interesting as well. We don't that's 80,000 people. Yeah. I think it would definitely it sounds like it would make it an easier job for the HPC in terms of like researching ahead
of time and um getting, you know, up to speed on what's going to be what what's being reviewed, right? Um but at the same time I do think like I mean again just hearing about this process it it does sound to me like that consultant has an is the person how whoever frames
the application is to the to is tells a story you can you can frame stories different ways and and that creates some influence and so I mean like I would wonder and maybe you ask them how often
does the HPC vote kind of counter to what the consultant is recommending. Does it happen ever? And you know and how often because I would imagine probably not a lot also I think it'd be interesting to understand
scale of the projects that Yes. So, are doing that need the kind of input from a consultant? I don't really think any so far anything that we've been reviewing is that complicated. I mean, it's within the
skill set of I'd say maybe maybe like the the cranberry pizza development that was like the biggest one we did, you know, multiple properties, right? If that ever were to happen, that type of thing. The hotel also is like old hotel,
right? Yeah, that's a bigger one. Uh, so um I mean it might be good to consider having somebody that's available to us, right? And you would have to Well, well, well, yeah. So we'd have to like you
know we'd need to campaign with our leaison some kind of allowance in our budget in our budget for that professional. Yeah it might end up being a legal issue. What might be the just some issues that might have an
attorney planning attorney it might be just a an allowance for consultants could be an attorney could be you don't want to recommend you don't want to approve something exactly you've been instructed not to um
so uh my my co-panel are at Montlair. Oh wow. And Burlington City. So they are much bigger. They are much bigger. Burlington is I've been through that. But one question maybe then is if our CLG grant goes through and we do our
survey of like our thematic district and we're adding 87ish more properties, then we're going to be in the 300s. Yeah. So right like when is it big enough? So that's another question. That's that's that's a good
point for our small town to have 300 properties and you look at other towns and it could be they could be much bigger and they may only have 50. Just throwing out there. It's we have a very high percentage of properties that fit
in the historic definition. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. That's exciting. So, this is next month. Yeah, it's on the It is. Cool. Um Okay. Uh new homeowner
letters. No new homeowner letters were sent out this month. All right. And then we have minutes um from April 15th and April 28th. I didn't have any comments on either one. I feel like these are so
short with the township committee meeting minutes that were listed here. Are they very detailed? Because usually the minutes I see are very simple and very darn minutes. Try to look and see. I don't know how long our section
was. Bear with me if you guys don't mind. I just want to I'm just curious to see what it said because since it was our make meeting like I want to make sure I had I didn't realize that there was another another like summary somewhere. Um
I think the only thing I would add there definitely what's missing here is like um if like um maybe I send you the updated language the language I used in the email about not just a a full engineering report. It
needs to be like a complete engineering report with X, Y, and Z and then a um historic resource um impact study. And so I I can I'll send you that language um from my email because I think we should just make sure we put that in
more detailed Okay. So for the um April 15th Yeah. I think Yeah, we can make a motion, right? To approve it. You are recused from that, right? You weren't here. Yeah. So, um I'll make a motion to approve the
minutes from April 15th. Oh, second. Thank you. All right. Roll call for the April 15th minutes. Miss Ryan, yes. Mr. Guyer, yes. Mr. Hull, yes. And Miss Marlo. Okay.
Thank you. Motion passed. Do we want to hold on the other minutes? Jennifer, um I can I'm going to send some additional language just clarification for that one line. Right. And then I was just looking at um there's also minutes from our
meeting um online which I didn't realize um like on the township website. Yeah, on the township committee website. I was just looking at that because are they minutes or is it like a transcript? No, it's like it's minutes. Um and it's much more
detailed than it's than usual usual. Um but it does look like it's accurate. The only thing is um it's missing again it's not just an engineering report. It's also the cultural you know impact study and
that's missing from that. I don't know if we have an opportunity to impact that since it's already been posted. Okay. All right. Oh well. So we'll just try to get it fixed here at least and then I sent them that email anyway. So they should have that
info. Okay. Cool. So, um I guess I can make a motion to approve these minutes with that with the additional language that I'm going to send to Gina. Second. Second. All right. Roll call for the special
meeting minutes April 28th. Um Miss Smire, yes. Miss Ryan, yes. Mr. Hull, yes. And Miss Marlo, thank you. Motion passed. All right. Public comment. No public comment, discussion. Anything
else, guys? Okay. Make a motion to adjurnn. [Music] All right. All in favor? I You go later. All
right. Yes. [Music] So, it's usually hours. That's why It's just hard. Copy