Okay. Good afternoon everyone. Welcome to the agenda um the October 21st, 2025 select board um meeting and very nice to see everybody. A nice big crowd. And uh Mike, would you like to do the pledge of allegiance? Sure.
To the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Thank you, Mike.
>> All right. So, uh, at this time, do I have a motion to approve the minutes of October 7th, 2025? >> So moved. Seconded. >> All in favor? >> I I >> opposed. And I abstain because I was not here. Um at this point, we are going to
do new public business. The clerk does have her timer. We're going to limit it to three minutes or less. Um I asked members uh if uh if we can um silence the phones, let's put cell phones away. If you need to take the call, totally understand. Just please step out of the
room. That would be great. Okay. Who would like to go up at at this time? Please go up. Bill, >> right there. >> Okay, >> please introduce yourself. >> Good evening. Bill Bates, town meeting
member, precinct 4. And first, thank you, select board, for your service to our town. It's really appreciated. Um, I'm concerned with the amount of frequency of closing roadways for construction. These are taxpayerup supported roads and
should be should not be closed without a darn good reason. Last week, Route 62 closed at Summer Street and the detour took all eastbound traffic up Summer Street, past St.
John's Prep, down to North Street, down to Locust Street, around to popular. I mean, if you're if that's somebody coming from Beverly or or trying to get home to Beverly or trying to get to downtown Danveris, they're just going to
give up. I don't understand why we can't at least sometimes or most 99% of the time have one lane open. If people want to wait, they can wait. If they don't, they can turn around and leave. But to close a road, and we seem to be doing it
more and more in Danvas. So, I I guess I would um just ask whose decision it is. Um you know, it it it's got to get better. And also, on another note, I think we should look at adding a new traffic division to the Danvas Police
Department. We've got traffic issues out there that just need help and need um special attention. Thank you. >> Thank you, Bill. Uh town manager, can you look into that, Lauren? Good evening. Lauren Steves, town
meeting member at precinct 3. Um, I'm going to try my very best to keep under three minutes. It might go a minute over. Um, and I apologize, but I think this is an important issue that myself and um, other people in this room are also here for. Um, this is in regards to electronic voting, which I brought up
last May and again in June. um and being a proponent of it for many reasons, strengthening fairness, transparency, and accountability to how we make the decisions for the people of this town. Um a flaw of voice voting was very clear during our 2023 annual town meeting
recall petition. The finance committee recommended no action on the recall petition. An amendment was submitted to take action. When that amendment was voted on by voice, the moderator ruled that the nose won the vote. That ruling was never questioned. The next vote taken was on the finance committee's
original recommendation of no action. A standing vote was requested on that motion which revealed the results to be 38 in favor of no action and 110 opposed. That outcome clearly shows the earlier amendment to take action likely should have been passed. But because the
initial voice vote wasn't challenged, the article ultimately ended with no decision at all. It showed in real time how easily a voice vote can produce the wrong outcome simply based on perception or volume and not accuracy. To gauge support for electronic voting, I
surveyed 144 town meeting members and received 81 responses, a 56% response rate. Of these responses, 64% said yes, 26% were undecided, and 10% said no. The town has previously considered surveys with much lower response rates
sufficient to guide policy decisions. A 56% response rate with nearly twothirds in favor represents a clear and credible measure of support among town meeting members of for implementing electronic voting. Cost is the main concern. A $40,000 figure mentioned at a previous meeting applies to Andover, which runs
an open town meeting where they have to account for 26,000 registered voters. Danvers has 149 members. Our cost is a fraction of that. I obtained a quote from Meridia Interactive Solutions tailored to Damvers for $9,980. the same vendor used by the US House of
Representatives. Similarly, Shrewsbury implemented electronic voting this year for around $12,000. Concerns about reliability, distribution, maintenance, and security have been addressed by other towns like Belmont, Arlington, and Bill Ricka. All of which report overwhelmingly positive experiences. Some systems don't even
require an internet connection. If a malfunction occurs, we revert to standing or roll call votes, as we do now. We rely on technology every day in government. laptops, microphones, iPads, virtual meetings. Town meeting has evolved before. This is simply the next step to ensure accuracy, fairness, and
accountability. Of the 32 Massachusetts towns with representative town meeting, 18 already use electronic voting, and another seven use hand counts or card systems. That makes voice voting the exception, not the rule. I've uh I've conducted extensive research to identify
potential electronic voting solutions, obtained feedback from other communities using these devices, and gathered preliminary pricing information. To make meaningful progress, the select board needs to formally task the town manager with obtaining official cost proposals from multiple vendors specific to Damver's needs. These quotes will not
only provide the necessary clarity on pricing structure, whether it's a one-time purchase, an annual subscription, or a hybrid model. It will also allow us to consider the functionality and benefits of the system. So both the select board and the town meeting members can make an informed data-driven decision. We deserve quotes tailored to that scale
covering both purchase and rental options, warranties, training, and support. The bottom line is we cannot know with 100% certainty what we do or do not vote in favor of without this investment. The intent is to ensure accuracy and that's something worth investing in. I would respectfully urge
the select board to support electronic voting for Danver's town meeting. Um I will email you all a copy of this, but I wanted to give a hard copy. This is about 70 pages of research, emails, information for all of you to read. >> Thank you. No, thank you. You've done a
great job with the information. Um, I've received some of your emails and I thank you for all your research and uh we've been in discussion with the I've been in discussion with the town manager about it. Um, what I'd like to do is um maybe put it on for an agenda uh next
meeting and have the board discuss this. Um, any additional information? Thank you. Um, but by adding this to the agenda, we can discuss it and um, thank you, Lauren. You're not being ignored.
>> Thank you. Anybody else? Bill. >> Good evening, board. Tony Benton Court, town meeting member Reason 5. All right. The question I have more or less is about the airport more or less. We know that. Anyways, uh I know that the the board sent a letter to the airport on on
uh things they wanted done. Did we ever get a response from that? Does anybody know? >> I'm going refer that to the town manager. >> By letter, are you referring to the resolution? >> Yes. >> That No, we didn't. It didn't request a response. >> So, >> we shared with them the resolution. So,
so they they didn't respond or anything on that? >> No. Again, it doesn't ask for a response. It just is a a resolution is doesn't require doesn't ask for >> when you sent the thing out. We never we never asked for a response. >> We're going to we're going to >> They're coming before the board. >> They're coming before us. What? Next, >> I think and let you know.
>> Yeah, they're coming in next meeting >> November 4th. Yeah. The question I have I don't know if you folks are on the email. Mark Zubri sent out an email of um Hansen Field. They did a a big survey. Okay. Okay, I don't know if you guys got a got a copy of that. I saw that you were all on the email. Even uh everyone was on
the email. That was a very devastating report. I mean, come on. We got to take care of our residents, okay? There's no way in hell that Beverly is going to pass what they went through, okay? If you look at that report, I mean, even even the schools, okay, they were talking about pollution from the planes
on the schools, okay? Come on. We have to do better than that. We have to really get out of this airport and straighten them out, okay? Because we have a problem. Thank you. Thank you, Tony. Anybody else? Bill, Bill Brad Street, town meeting member,
precinct one. Have a question. Canvas is a town. We operate several divisions and they're housed all over town. We weren't able to make a transition to the uh state hospital grounds. Of all the locations
that we have in town, is there a list of them in the order that they will be visited and refurbished? I've been uh I won't tell you how, but some of them are in disrepair. some of the facilities
inside are I would call them an embarrassment. >> We'll let we'll let the town manager um take notes of that and we'll get back to you, Bill, on that. >> Thank you. Just tell me you're working on it. >> We're working on it. Okay. Thank you. Anybody else?
>> Okay. Thank you everybody for coming up. >> We do hear your concerns. Okay. The board will consider endorsement of a town manager appointment to the conservation commission in accordance with MGL chapter 40 section 8C. I'll defer this to the town manager. Any board members? Do you have any questions
with regards to this? Okay. Okay. This is no vote. So, um here >> did you want to say anything, Joe? Sure. Um, thank you. Uh, this has been a difficult uh position to fill on the
conservation commission. Um, so we were thrilled when um, Mr. McNelte raised kind of raised his hand and agreed to work with us. Um, I think most people in this room know him. He has a long history volunteering for the town on the rail trail um, committee. I think he's a
fantastic fit and we're very grateful and I am honored to appoint him to the concom law says in the town I make the appointment the board uh confirms that appointment. >> Excellent. Paul, great choice. I've worked with Paul too on the rail trail committee. Thank you. Go
>> chair. I I would agree that no more no one more deserving or invested in the conservation of our uh of our public lands than Paul and I appreciate all you do and thank you very much. Paul, did you want to get up to the podium at all and and say hello say hello before I you
know sorry a little out of order >> but everybody at home see your face. >> Yeah, we want to see you. We know we know you. >> Uh so Paul McNelte pre I've been in uh where I'm precinct 2. I've been in Danvers now close to 40 years. I'm with my wife and two kids. I just live up the
street. Uh enjoy the town. Uh have volunteered quite a bit over the years on the rail trail um as some people have mentioned which is nice. And then I've done some volunteering up in Maine on a lake association. So generally familiar with the importance of trying to protect waterways um and felt that it would be a
good thing to participate in this commission as well. So thank you for the vote of confidence. Um and I'll be there whatever it is Thursday for the next meeting. >> Excellent. Mike, do you have any questions? >> No. Congratulations. Thank you for stepping up. >> Thank you. >> D. >> Uh no, thank you. Thanks for your
service. And Dan, >> Dan, do you have anything to say? I know we know, Paul. Thank you very much. >> Nothing they can add. >> Yeah, I know. And your wife. Thank you, Mrs. Thank you, Mrs. McNelte, too. Yeah. Thank you. All right. I think we need a
motion. >> We'll need a motion to um accept the appointment of Paul McNelte to the Conservation Commission. >> So moved. >> Second. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I opposed. Okay. Excellent. Congratulations. Thank you.
>> Okay. >> Thank you, Mrs. McNelte, too. >> The board will consider requests from Falconfest in conjunction with the following 2026 events. Winter Bonfire in January and downtown Rewind in June. Who is here to speak on behalf of this?
Welcome. And please go to the podium and introduce yourself. >> Good evening. Uh Dave Pavish, secretary, Falconfest. >> Hi, Rebecca Frankie, treasurer. Um, as the chair mentioned, we are here to request approval on two of our events.
Um, the first upcoming one is January 10th. It is our winter bonfire at Plains Park. And the request is that um the select board support the fire department um providing Dammer Falconfest with a
ceremonial bonfire permit for our event. >> Yeah. >> Chief, do you have anything that you'd like to get up and say, please? Thank you. >> Thank you, Brian Barry, fire chief. So, this is the third year in a row. It's a great event. Uh we support it fully. The
community has had a great attendance at both of the previous two events, but in order for us to grant a permit for a bonfire of this type, the board would have to authorize authorize us to do so with a vote. Uh but we ask your support
as well. And uh I think it's to be held the 10th, you said, and the rain date the 11th. >> Yes. >> Hoping for better weather this year. Um we've had a couple of rough years, but >> that's it. >> All right. Wonderful. And um board members, do do I have a motion to
approve the winter bonfire? >> So moved. >> Okay. Second. >> Second. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I opposed. Okay. And can you continue? >> Just thank you. So, we'll uh they now they can apply for the permit and we'll issue it and uh
>> have a great excited. Thank you. Tell us about the other events. >> So, the second event is our fourth annual downtown rewind block party downtown. Uh the date for that is June 23rd uh 2026
Tuesday. The rain date would be June 25th, a Thursday um from 5 to 8. So, for that we're requesting a block party permit. Um, similar to prior years, we'll have
uh live band, local dance studios performing uh around the downtown, street performers, characterists. Um, we have a costume contest that's been pretty popular. Um,
storefront decorating contest. We added that last year to try to get the businesses engaged >> and the prize for that was a a free table at the summer nightlights um event in uh August that went very well. Um there'll be games and activities. Uh we
have a classic car show. So this will be is this we had it the first time, didn't we? Classic car Yeah. So this will be the fourth time we've had the classic car show. Um so we have about room for about 20 classic cars uh to show off there. face painting, uh, live art. Um,
and the theme is through the decades. So, we'll have sort of broken up into 60s, 70s, 80s, >> 90s decor in music. Um, and we'll have a couple of food trucks with treats, but we encourage most of the local businesses that are already down there,
the restaurants to run some specials, and we'll tell everybody about them if they plan ahead. >> That's so fun. Thank you. Um, do I have a motion to um for the request for Valve Fest to for downtown Rewind? >> Can we have clarification, please, on
the streets that will be blocked and closed? >> Yep. >> Um, so the request is that the Maple Street be blocked from Elm to Locust starting at 3:00 and the CVS parking lot
block um emptied by 2 p.m. which is consistent in the last three years. Well, I'm looking at the map and I see you. Are you closing School Street and Cherry Street for Maple? >> Cherry Street does Cherry Street doesn't close. Cars could drive down Cherry
Street towards Maple and then they wouldn't have anywhere to turn, but we we don't close Cherry. Um and then what was the other street that you mentioned? >> School. No, same same thing that people could get all the way to Maple on School or Cherry, but they >> Well, I suggested Chad and Paige maybe
should close Cherry Street so people don't get down into Maple and they have no place to turn around. >> Okay, we can talk to the police. >> Speak talk to the police about that. We've had construction there before with the gas companies and they don't block it off that people drive in or they come
in from Maple turning in. Gets very confusing. >> Okay, we'll do that. All right. With whatever the police say, but thank you. >> Dean, do you have any comments? >> No. Thank you, Rebecca, for all you do. Um, I'm sure Mr. Bates will be okay for this street
being closed for this one time. Um, that would be the exception. Uh, where my only ask will be um maybe the requirement should be that when people get there, they actually dance. Last year, Elvis Presley was there and I
was the only one dancing. So, I I need some dance partners. >> You don't want to see everybody dance. >> Why not? >> Thank you. Thanks for all you do. >> Mike, you have any questions? >> No, no, I know it's a great turnout. So, thank you for all your work.
>> No, fully supportive. I The event's great. >> Excellent. I just had a question, too. What about um the holiday tree lighting on December 6th? Are we going to put that in also? So, Jen mentioned that she um I don't I'm not sure if she emailed a memo, right, with with that information.
Um the town approached Falcon Fest a couple years ago to take over the extracurricular activities that are part of the the treelighting like the reindeer food making and we do face painting and card making as well.
>> And yep, we have a DJ um to support the event and a small parade. Um, and it sounded like we weren't sure if there was going to be a vote tonight on that or not because we kind of tag along with what the town already does. The town supports and and plans the the official
lighting of the tree and we we augment the event with some with some fun stuff, but if you are amendable to voting on the approval for the >> December 6th tree lighting, right? Yeah, that's fine. >> Okay. >> Yeah, let's do that. So, board members, do I have um let's do a let's do I have
a motion to approve the event? Uh let's first do the downtown rewind in June. >> So moved. >> Second. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I >> I opposed. Okay. And then do I have a motion to approve uh the holiday tree
lighting December 6 from Falconfest? >> Some moved. >> Second. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I opposed. Excellent. Well, thank you. >> I I I really try to cut all of them, too. It's a lot of fun. I encourage everyone to go. Thank you.
All right. The board will vote to accept a gift to the town in accordance with MGL chapter 44 section 53A. Um, we have the DMAS Garden Club donation towards Arbor Day trees in 2025. Who is here to speak on behalf of
this? >> Okay. Um I you have a memo in your packets that was part of the public documents um as I believe as an annual donation from Danver's garden club >> for Arbor Day trees in the amount of $400. Um and they were planted as part
of the town's Arbor Day celebrations in 2024 and 2025. And we request your acceptance of the donation, please. >> Excellent. >> Anybody have any questions? Got >> madam. I move we accept the gift uh with a appropriate letter of thanks. >> Appropriate letter of thanks. Yeah. Mike, anything?
>> No questions. Second. >> Okay, Dan. >> All set. Do I have a second? >> I'll second it. I'll second it. >> Thank you. All in favor? I >> opposed. Terrific. Thank you. >> Thank you, Joe. >> All right. Public hearing will be held on a request
to modify the previously granted application of Wakefield Associates, Joe Roberto, project manager, to occupy the public way in front of 17 Elm Street to begin construction on the building. who is here to speak on this, please. Hi. Can you go up to the podium, please?
Introduce yourself. >> My name is Tim Spencer. I was in front of you before. We ran into some uh confusion over bringing the utilities into the building. It seems they designed the building without a utility room. So, there was no place to bring
the utilities into. So, we had to have it redesigned again. And that's what's taken so long, right? We've got it solved, the issue solved, and we've started the work, but we need more time to finish it. That's what it boils down to. Uh
we tried to we started the water on Friday. We were supposed to bring it across the street on Monday, but due to the rain, we got rained out. We're going to try to have all the utilities in, I'd say, by the end of next week, but I don't see it happening any quicker than
that. So, we just needed some more time to extend the date out to replace the sidewalk. >> Okay. Board members, uh, Ghana, do you have any questions? >> No. Uh, surprise, but uh, no, I I don't.
I my my only concern is how long has the public way been blocked since you first put up the scaffolding, asked for an extension, and asked for another? >> Oh, it's been months. beginning of the year they were before us early. >> Yeah, we had people walking
>> and they we gave them permission and then they didn't have their plans. >> No, I remember >> and they came back. Well, I'm just going through because this is the third time they've been here before us. Yeah. >> And again, they don't have everything in order, >> right? No, you're 100% right. So, is the
is the is the room now designed and available or the location wherever it is on the plot, right, >> ready for you to bring in all utilities and dug it out. We've already dug it out and prepped it to to bring it in and we would have had the water in >> probably today.
>> Mhm. >> Except that yesterday we got rained out. >> My my other concern is obviously these delays have delayed construction as well. Is there a point at which in the winter time because of that you believe you'll have to shut down construction or will all utilities be on site and
buttoned up before >> the utilities will be on site and buttoned up but they'll still be working on the building but the one one of the issues they're going to run into is we're going to have to put the sidewalk back. We won't be able to pour the sidewalk. It'll have to be paved because
the front of the building is brick, >> right? >> Brick goes below the sidewalk. So, they're not going to be able to finish it. I know they're not going to get all that done. >> Will will pouring the sidewalk delay removing the scaffolding? Do you have to
do you or is there any temporary solution that we can reopen the sidewalk with a temporary sidewalk till the springtime when you can pour? I'm trying to get that scaffolding down as soon as possible, as I'm sure you are too, but >> Exactly. >> I'm looking for a drop dead date. What's a drop dead date?
>> I don't I don't have that. I'm not actually running the job. I'm not the GC. He was supposed to be here, but he's not here. So, he would have the answer to that. I don't I'm just a sight guy. I'm trying to get the utilities in, but they keep sending me to ask you to delay
it, and I understand your concerns. >> What's the current end date for >> Why don't we um ask Stephen King to um speak on >> Can I ask in the application? I haven't I I just got a copy of the letter. I didn't get it earlier today. What's the current end date for this application?
>> Does it have an end date on it? or this extension. >> There's there's no dates. It just says days. >> Yeah, it doesn't have anything. >> We talked 30 days, 15 days, >> but I don't know what the beginning point is. So, you can't find the end point. >> It says 6 to 8 months.
>> 6 to 8 months. >> 6 to 8 months. So, I guess >> and through you, Madam Chair, I'm presuming that there's a performance bond on this right now. >> I would hope so. Can we have Stephen King go up to the podium, please? Stephen from engineering may have some more info for us.
>> Good evening, uh, everyone. Stephen King, town engineer, Department of Public Works. Uh, we have currently a street opening and trench permit, which is our typical, um, bond that we hold with the town clerk, our office. Um, we don't have a specific separate performance or payment bond for this
site work. Typically, they're only doing a utility cut. So, they have a water and sewer permit um, which was just approved. Uh like you said, they should have done the work Monday. They got rained out. That work should be finished by in the next week or so, but then I
think after that work is completed and they go to replace the sidewalks, it's got to be temporary as you said because they have to pour the they have to place the concrete next to where the brick facade's going to go. Even though they're doing that work on the sidewalk, the sidewalk is still going to have scaffolding because of the vertical
construction that's happening. So until the building facade is completed with siding and brick that scaffolding want to stay in place until that's completed which will take us into that six to eightmonth time frame um based on your general construction timeline. >> So are we saying the exterior wall can't
be completed until the br until the poor final sidewalk? >> Yes, correct. >> Okay, interesting. Okay, thank you. Thank you, man. >> Mike, questions for Stephen. factor was there. The utility room is
how the hell does that figure out? >> Me and the plumber to figure it out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And we just looked at each other and said there's no place to bring it in. >> So, we stole some we made a utility room in the dumpster area >> and we're going to petition that off,
heat it, so everything can come in there. >> So, it's outside the building. >> No, it's it's inside the building. It's inside the building. There's like doors that open up and they slide the dumpster up. So, we're going to petition off part of that to bring everything in. They actually had the utilities coming up in
the lobby and nobody noticed it except us and that's not our job. I be honest with you. So, we're trying to resolve it all. It's just kind of been very confusing and timeconuming. >> And those come in at the rear of the building.
>> They come in the side off of Page Street. >> Off of Page. off a page. The sewer is going to come around the back of the building and through the garage because they had the sewer design coming through the same area as the water. You can't do that. There's supposed to be separation. That's against the code,
>> though. But we we we think we've got it all resolved. So, we're going to press forward and try to get it all in as quick as we can. >> Did you already submit a plan for the water and sewer to the town? >> We have a plan. We did. Okay. >> Yep. >> Yep. We finally got it all designed how
everybody was in agreement over it cuz in the beginning everybody was disagreeing about it. >> The the inside engineer, the outside engineer was a real, you know, headache. So >> yeah. Okay. >> But we have it resolved now. We just have to install it.
>> All right. Thank you. >> No problem. Thank you. Any more questions? >> Yeah. No, stay up there just in case there is. Um D, >> I thought I was confused. Now I'm really confused. Well, we got Stephen King here. So, >> yes. I just want to know from our
perspective, what's the act? What is it that they I'm not quite sure what they're asking for? >> I I I am assuming we're going to have it done by the end of next week. So, we I'd say we need two more weeks to finish it.
>> Now, I know we're probably looking for a drop dead date. Maybe he can >> I I just want to know what the axe is. >> Okay. So the ask really is not just about utilities, about the full construction, which is going to take 6 to 8 months to complete. That's as long as they need to take to occupy the
public right away to complete their project. Not just utilities, but utilities and vertical construction and then replacement and restoration of the sidewalks, curbing, and street once they're complete. >> Okay. >> They're going to have to have scaffolding in place, protecting the
sidewalk for for pedestrians while they're going vertical with the building. Okay, cuz the it says 6 to 8 months but keeps with the original construction timeline of 12 to 14 months. So
I'm just confused like are we saying from now we're giving them another 8 months to occupy the >> essentially? Yes. So they should be complete by the uh by June of 2026 completely done not occupying the public
right away. And yeah, >> Madam Clerk, my understanding, Stephen, help me. Um, is that um that they're occupying the street right now with a walkway. Once they put in the temporary
asphalt sidewalk on the sidewalk, then they can open up the street for parking. They're going to put overhead protection on the sidewalk, temporary sidewalk until the springtime when they complete the outside of the building and can pour the concrete.
>> That's correct. >> So, in theory, they will need to occupy the sidewalk until the springtime, let's say June is. >> Yes. Correct. >> Instead of what? What was it before? Like what what extension are we
>> right now? I it was 10 was 10 this past weekend was the last was the expiration of the second request for the extension. >> Right. >> It was October 15th. >> October 15th. Thank you. >> Okay.
>> So they're asking for an extension >> of two weeks. >> Wow. No, till June. >> June. >> Till June. >> But they're going to be able to open the street right now in front of um in front of Elm Street. Those parking spots are unavailable right now because the the
sidewalk is now in the street. So, he's going to pour temporary sidewalk on the sidewalk next to the building to move that over to open up the parking on the street. >> Okay. >> So, he still will be occupying the sidewalk, however, not the street. So,
you're going to get the street back in the next two weeks, >> right? >> And then >> we have your word on that. Okay. Well, I I guess I mean I'm not going to hold this. I guess one of the other select board members is probably going to make a motion and
>> hopefully that will clarify what we'll be voting on. >> So, almost. Thank you. >> All right, Dan. >> Thank you. Um, we have a letter from an attorney that doesn't tell us anything. Not your fault, Steve. We're talking days, but
there's no dates here. You're closing Page Street temporarily, but I don't know what dates those are. You're putting up scaffolding. I don't know what date you want to put it up and what date you're going to bring it down because that was what we have to approve. A set number of days or time
frame. You go beyond that time frame, you're subject to a $300 fine per day. Not you, but the owner or the developer. I hear you're going to be putting a dumpster in the building to pull out. I don't know that the owner knows there's a bylaw against picking up trash before
7 a.m. and if that's been part of their conversation. I'd like to have somebody here that can give us specifics and answer questions about observing our bylaws. Steve, you're welcome to keep working. Hopefully you get your utility room in.
You get your water in. But I How long you going to close Page Street? I see 30 days. And you say soon. >> We're not We might have to >> go to the close to the mic, please, so they can hear. Thank you. >> Close to vehicle traffic.
>> We We plan on only closing the street as long as it takes us for us to cross it. So it could be one day, maybe two days. >> Okay. But >> Okay. And and it would be the same with the sewer, but we don't have to close the street for the sewer because it only goes out halfway. The water goes all the way across, >> right?
>> So worst case, they would be driving over plates for one night maybe until we finish it, pave it, and then it's open again. So I would say the maximum amount of time Page Street would be closed would be two days >> between the hours of
>> 8 and 4. and and we can re uh reroute the traffic just around right where we're working through the parking lot. They'll come out right behind us. We're only closing maybe 100 feet of the street. >> So, what days would you close it? I mean, Mondays is when the trash is
picked up. They want to stop the tra, >> but they they can still get they can still get in. That's what they do now. When they pick the trash up, they drive through the parking lot. So, they got a straight shot down the alley to pick up all that trash in there. That's a very busy alley. That's busier than Elm Street. I'm not talking the trash in the alley. I'm talking on the street the
resident, >> but they could still they can still go through the parking lot and get it because there isn't any trash in the area where we're working. >> No, I understand. >> Right. So, I I >> So, I would if I made through you, Mr. Madam Chairman, if um public works can
reach out to a public and find out if they're able to get pick up the trash when the streets closed. >> We don't know when the streets closed. >> Trash is picked up on Mondays. But again, I'd like to know specific dates when the roads are closed, when
the scaffolding's going up, when it's coming down, when the concrete will be poured on the sidewalks. >> They've got to I understand they got to pave it in order to get the scaffolding up >> and come back later and do the concrete. >> Right. >> But when >> when Right.
>> I I would agree. The GC should have a detailed project plan with dates, >> right? because it's all about coordination and construction and understanding that weather may affect that plus or minus. Oh yeah, it's still >> we have an original document in our packet that says we want dates. We got a
revised letter that doesn't have dates. >> Correct. >> I'm not going to sit here and count 148 days from >> neither am I. >> Some end point that we don't even know. So, um, if we can, I'm going to ask whether it be part of the motion or whether we
whether it be a subsequent action, I'd like this document revised with specific dates and or a project plan >> with high level milestones. That's my profession, project management. Okay. >> High level milestones y >> and thresh, you know, and dependencies,
>> right? to understand when you know so if you all of a sudden don't have steel on site for three weeks what's that do to the plan right >> things of that nature and I realize we're putting you on the spot and it's not you the GC should be here >> he should be I agree with you 100% >> so um
>> and he was supposed to be I don't know where he is >> y this is his or her to answer not not yours >> exactly yeah I just dig in the ground that's all I can help you with >> okay though so this is a public hearing does anyone in the audience have any
comments? If so, please go up to the podium, introduce yourself. Yep. Thank you. >> Good evening. My name is Bill McKenzie, precinct 3 town meeting member. I've been in construction all my life and you
can't really pick a date, especially if you get rained out, snowed out, but a lot of this has already been gone through with the planning board. And for a major thing like that room to be missed, it shouldn't have been missed from the beginning. So, it should go
back to the architect in the contractor and they should be here telling you why it was missed and giving you the solution. It's not his problem. Well, it is his problem because he's here doing it, but he's like he said, he just digs holes. It sounds like he's doing a lot more than that.
>> Thank you. Good man. >> Thank you. >> Now, somebody's swinging a lot of hammers down there, too. >> Bill, did you want to go up? Introduce yourself again. >> Bill, you should sit up front or near the microphone. You can't sit back there anymore.
Again, Bill Brad Street town meeting member precinct one. My understanding it's only mine. As far as concrete, it can be poured almost anytime. It depends on the mixture they use to do with the
temperature outside, the ground temperature, what have you. So, as far as pouring concrete, I can I believe it can be done almost anytime. Uh Mr. Bean might be able to offer some advice there, too. No comment. >> I tried.
>> It's all recorded. >> Thank you, Bill. I think Steve King mentioned, you know, did a nice uh job. >> Um, anybody else want to get up and say anything? All right. What about a motion to close the public hearing? >> So moved. >> Okay. Second. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I.
>> I. Okay. What's the will of the board? >> Uh, just a quick clarification to you, Madame Chair. If if we table this and require more information, what does that do to the project? Do do this stopped or
how does that affect >> couldn't stop it. He's just going to move along. But >> you want to go up and answer that? >> I I don't I don't think it would stop it. I'm in the process of installing those the water and the sewer. Uh,
you should have dates for this stuff. Yeah, I agree with you. >> Okay. >> And someone should supply them to you, but it's not me. I got to be honest with you. Uh, I think everybody's on board to get the job done as quick as they can, but there have been a lot of delays and
I I agree with you in that sense. >> If I may, Madam Chair, we already approved them putting the utilities in. >> We did. Yes. So, I mean, they can just continue on, >> but we should have somebody come back at any time specific. >> M, if you don't mind, I'll make a motion that we accept the application to extend
for another 60 days. >> Yeah. >> To return within that 60 days with the detailed information we're looking for for further extension. It stops them from getting the clock. We could actually start finding $300 as a Dave at this point. I don't want that.
I'm not looking for it. But had we known this was going to close a sidewalk for over a year, we, you know, we certainly would have, at least the ZBA or the planning board when they heard this would have asked for considerations, some public betterment or something to that effect, but I still want the
details and I know you can't, as you know, as you said, you can't get to a specific day. It's never going to that's a happy path. you're never going to hit it, but at least give us a plus minus of so much time and a target that at which point we know they have to come back again. So my motion is to extend the
current permit for 60 more days to have them return with the details we need to further extend it. >> Okay. So there's a motion there. Is there any discussion? >> I second the motion. >> Okay. >> Excellent. All in favor? >> I I
>> No. Okay, Dan. Well, thank you. You've wor one. I'd rather I'd rather you came back sooner. >> A great job. >> All right. Thanks. >> I'm trying. >> All right. >> Public hearing will be held to continue
discussion of proposed changes to the town's traffic rules and orders. And who is here to speak on behalf of that? Good evening. Sorry, I have my stuff. Um, [Music] thank you. Um, Aaron Henry, the town's
director of land, use, and community services here to uh continue our conversation that we started on November uh November 9th. September 9th uh when we kind of previewed the changes that we were uh the transportation advisory commission was seeking to uh get your
approval for. So uh on the 9th um I did a more detailed presentation including a memo kind of giving you the highlights. Specifically, the questions we received that evening were to add a table to appendix one where we have a map today
of the state jurisdiction and local jurisdiction right ofways. So, we've added a table into uh the appendix that details written uh what state routes are in town. Um we talked a little bit about Maple
Street one way. I did have a conversation offline with Mr. Tras about more about that. Um, we had uh we were asked to clarify some of the language around the car carrier language and the penalties associated with that. There is revised
language in this redlinined. Um, worked with Lieutenant Sullivan on that. So hopefully that's clearer uh than it was on the 9th. Um, we were also asked about a map of downtown, the parking map that uh our parking clerk uses uh to distribute to employees and businesses.
I provided that uh shortly after the 9th. Um, I believe I received one comment from a board member via email in the days uh following that. And I believe the version you have in front of you addresses all of those comments. Um,
and as I warned you on the 9th, I was be would be here this evening looking for a vote. Um, and I'd be happy to take any questions. >> Board members Garner, >> I want to thank you for uh listening to my concerns and putting in those tables. I think they're more informational,
especially when we go to town meeting uh or where we go next for this and when you're doing promotional uh orformational sessions to know for people to be able to visualize what roads we have control over, what roads we have shared control over, what roads we don't have control
over is important. and the fact and a map that identifies basically the parking spot availability from that previous uh report um helps people understand the context and how much you're how much you're not taking uh
when it comes to employee parking sticker program. So, I appreciate that. And um for those I mentioned at the meeting that we had previously, you know, to investigate a suggestion of a one-way uh from Maple Street out from
the I'm going to say my my my um landmark is the fire station. From the fire station, uh I'm in. So you come off and only come in >> say you said you might have just reversed what I thought you >> I know come inbound only because I believe that outbound is the cause of a
lot of uh uh issues. Um Aaron offered a potential solution that I'll let him flesh out, but it was elegant in its solution and didn't require that. So I'll look forward to seeing how that pans out and I don't want to steal any thunder. So, yep.
>> Thank you for uh for listening to the concerns. >> Thank you for the feedback. >> Mike, do you have comments? >> Um, what do we have to do if we wanted to increase the fines on like the bicycle violations? Um, I think that
could be a good tool to use against the the people or persons that are uh driving down the middle of the road, whatnot. I mean, typically the bylaw fines are pretty cheap, right? >> Um, personally, I would might have to
lean on uh the police department or the town clerk for a little bit more details because I'm not sure if those are governed by Mass General law. And, you know, oftentimes those rules set a maximum. Um, I I know we've tweaked our penalties over the years since I've been
on the commission. Um, but I don't know if there's a ceiling. But if it's if it's not prohibited by Mass General law, I would assume the community can set those rates to whatever they wish. But I'm not sure if Lieutenant I I don't mean he's here, so I'm going to lean on him. Is there
>> Most are law? >> Most are governed by Mass General Law. And are we at the maximum under the law? >> Yeah. >> So we're capped already. >> Sounds like we are capped on just about everything. >> Okay. All right. Thank you. >> Is that it?
>> Yeah, D. Thank you for making the edits and the changes. Um >> just wanted to clarify just for my own understanding here. >> Absolutely. >> On page 18, um section 26,
the car carrier by motor vehicle. Um section C. So 26 C. >> Yep. The fine goes goes to the businesses and the operator gets issue a general law chapter 90 civil motor
vehicle infraction. Is that correct? >> That is correct. >> Okay, perfect. Thank you. >> Excellent. That was my question too. >> That way the businesses are also the businesses can't hide behind the driver and saying, "Oh, he didn't know." >> Exactly. >> They are also partly responsible and this gives us that that authority to to
get through the business as well. >> Okay. >> Excellent. Thank you, >> Dan. >> Thank you. Um Aaron, I'm sorry I was not present during your presentation. Um I did read I did have a small comment for you, but can you walk me through this
employee paid parking permit? I could I can't find it in the book. >> It is actually in the appendix um in section two, which is townowned sites and parking areas. >> Yeah, I see a lot of red there. >> Yeah, exactly. Um, a lot of the red is just reorganizing
the what was bulleted for, you know, central >> a what does it say at the end of the day about paid? >> Basically, it it says that today we have a number we have 49 I think is the actual count. 49 parking spaces that are labeled all day parking and we want
>> located >> uh I think there's about 10 in every lot and some lots. >> So around town. >> Yeah, around around the downtown. Those are currently signed all day parking. And what we'd like to do is convert those that signage to say um employee
park. Uh I apologize. I'm looking for the quote and all the red lines. I can't quite see it, but it'd basically be employee parking during the day. Otherwise, there'd be a two-hour parking limit like any, you know, so if one of those spaces is open and I'm just patronizing uh brothers, I can park in
it. If I have the employee parking permit and I find one of those spots available, I can park all day. The problem we had was right now, but we do allow overnight parking of regular vehicles in those lots, but we also allow all day. So, we've seen residents
that live nearby that have limited parking, putting their car in the lot at night, totally fine, but then not having to move it during the day. So, now we have employees showing up and they have got nowhere to go. So there's we're playing cat-and- mouse with the
employees around the square because the parking spaces we designated for all day are unavailable because we've got cars in them all day. >> And when I read this quickly, I'm thinking out here, are we talking about our employees getting paid parking space
out here? No. >> No, no. They there was a map that was included that had um the map that I sent out has they were outlined in red. Um, Page Street Lot. Uh, obviously the one behind Brothers, uh,
the one behind, um, I was going to call it Chucks. I shouldn't call it that. It's Maple Street Cafe. Um, >> and some in the in the Hobart lot. >> Okay. Thank you. I'm clear now. >> Okay. And I had a question, Aaron, too. Thank you, Dan. Page 18, section C,
limit parking passes. Um, how many per business? Are we Have we come up with the number? Is it five per business, 10 per business? >> I apologize. >> On page 18, section C. >> My pagination must be different. >> The carrier. >> Oh, I'm sorry. That's the carrier. Uh,
>> the back. >> Yeah, I mean, I'm sorry. I I wrote down the wrong one. >> Backyard. Page 30. >> Page 30. I'm sorry. >> Yep. >> I was question. How many like how many businesses do they have? Five parking passes, seven, eight, 10. you know, what
what are we allowing? >> We at at the staff level have talked about probably like maybe five would be a max that we would allow one business to have. I mean, we do have one business down there that has a lot of employees and that's I would say that's the
primary problem. Um, but we have other businesses that have expressed an interest um in finding a better solution than the G game of cat and mouse. But I think we're thinking to start with capping it at five. >> Okay. And those other ones that have more, are they going to be grandfathered? Are you going to limit
them to >> observe the parking rules just now? >> That's the right answer. Good. Excellent. >> Um, this is a public hearing. Um, do I have a motion to close? Anybody in the public want to speak? Bill,
I'm sorry. I missed you, Bill. You got to sit up front. >> Right there. that >> Bill Bradley told me we have a precinct one I think sometime ago and for me that's couple of decades because of the
skateboarders in the square causing dangerous situations skate go skateboards could be confiscated I don't remember how long they could be held before they had to be returned and I think we're I believe
we're doing the same to bicycles now. Could we change the uh uh rules that the bicycles are confiscated and sold by the town >> so that the town can have the money to
help deal with the issue that the uh bicycle riders are creating? I can't personally I can't see taking someone's bike and get it back in a week, 10 days or whatever it is so they can go back to doing the same thing on the same bike.
I'd like to see the bike disappear perhaps in some other community after the town has sold it. Make that a restriction. If you're going to buy it, you can't ride it in Damas. But I can't see us allowing the same problem to
continue without some I guess severe consequences and I don't know how to just tell me you're working on it. >> You're working on it. >> Good ideas. We're working on it. >> Thank you. >> So, this is a public hearing. Anybody else? Um, >> yep. Please go up and introduce
yourself. Thank you. Hi, Edward Shreggy, 34 Conan Street, town meeting member, precinct one. I don't know if this is the uh place to bring this up, but the corner of uh Maple Street and Popular is uh there was
an accident there a couple days ago and uh I've heard of numerous accidents at that location and I don't know what can be done. You got a stop sign coming out of Maple Street and the cars coming from the right on Papa Street uh speeding
around that curb and uh it's a dangerous I go there every morning on the way to work and uh I see people it's some people uh have trouble just getting out in the street there from Maplemont to Popler and to go left and I think the
cars coming around there should be some sort of blinking yellow light or something to slow those people down sign says dangerous intersection or something. I don't know if this if there's stats in the city that show how many accidents are at that location, but
I'll bet you there's quite a few. Thank you. >> Thank you. Aaron, do you want to mention anything about that, please? >> Yeah, that's an intersection that um has been uh noted a couple of times in the last year or so. Um the DPW is currently
reviewing the geometry and the change there. um hinted at earlier that one of the requests we had received was to make that segment one way inbound. So basically if you were traveling east on
62 towards Danvers from Middleton, you'd just be able to take that right and head right into town. There'd be no oncoming traffic for you. That would route outbound traffic from the square right at the fire station, the old fire station, then left at Locust. That's a
pretty involved move if we were to make that move. One that we're not comfortable with at the moment because the infrastructure at both of those signalized intersections was really not contemplated that much traffic diversion. We could look at that if you wanted us to, but that would probably in
involve a fairly heavy uh engineering study and then potentially quite a heavy infrastructure investment to reconfigure those lights. Um what we are looking at is more of a short-term problem um or more of a short-term solution that
should work from a safety perspective um as effectively as rerouting all of that traffic is teeing off that end of Maple. So right now you're kind of taking it at a 270 if you're heading outbound. You're you're like looking over your right shoulder um and you're trying to find
that spot to to gap in there. A few years ago, um, over 10 anyway, the town did a similar reconfiguration at Pine Street in Maple, so only about half a mile away, where now at Pine Street, you have that you approach that elbow, it
forces you to a 90 degree to the tangent of the curve. So, you get the best sight lines that you're going to get in that situation. So, we're trying to take a look at what that looks like if we were to. And there's an island there, so it would probably involve reconfiguring that island a little bit. Um there's
some driveways in close proximity. So even that solution is going to take a little bit more investigation than um um we're able to you know I can't show you the plan tonight. Uh we do but we haven't started that process of looking into that.
Any other questions? Okay. Motion to close the public hearing. Oh, I'm sorry, Lauren. Go ahead. I didn't see you. >> Lauren Steves. This question is probably going to be for Aaron. I just wanted some clarification on the um lots for
employee parking right now. You said there's various amounts in each lot. Yep. >> Um are those spaces currently all day and overnight parking allowed for all those spots? So they're going to turn into 2hour parking only for nonmp
employees. >> Yeah. No overnight parking. >> Overnight parking is currently allowed by default. So we we don't regulate I think in the Hobart Street lot um and the lot behind town hall we have some
specific regulations as to what can be spent uh left there overnight. But generally speaking there are very few restrictions on overnight parking. The the default setting of the town has been overnight parking is allowed. We have a truck exclusion. We have some some
asterisks to that but your car my car we can park overnight. >> Okay. So I guess I I guess I'm just wondering those those spots turn into in the morning 2hour for not employee and all day for people who get the parking passing. So are I guess we're we're
potentially going to run into people who have parked there overnight and are still parked there in the morning potentially. And are we going to start ticketing and >> I imagine a little breakin period where I don't think Kathy's going to go out there and hit everyone over the head
with a cudgel day one. >> I was just wondering how that that transition would look since they're pro, you know, probably used to doing that. >> Yep. >> Frequently. >> Yep. I mean, I would imagine we'll probably fly those cars and say, "Hey, this is coming. >> Be ready." Because, you know, once we
hit the 8:00 bell, if you don't have that, you're leaving. >> That makes sense. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Wonderful. Bill >> again, Bill Brad Street. Uh, in referring to the town parking lot across the street, which looks like a
construction, uh, yard by some of the pieces of equipment that are there. Is there a provision in there for someone to abandon? There's a vehicle over there with a broken window that's been there for some time. There's now a uh boat
parked over there. How do those fit into the uh uh rules for uh do we have a boat yard? Do we have a construction yard? Or do we merely have a parking lot, which is too general?
>> Call the police. Right. Call the police. >> Right. >> I won't comment on that. um understanding that that may have been for the record. Um um but I do think um we joke Lieutenant Sullivan, we sometimes um tease him that he's on boat
duty quite a bit. Um, but I think the answer unfortunately for some of that, which is why we're seeking clarification on what exactly is allowed there and when, is that I believe that boat is the trailer is registered um fit to be on the road and uh so therefore it can be
there because we don't say it can't be. So what we're trying to do is clarify that. And again, that's that section. Uh Mr. Brad Street is quite a gentleman because if I were in his situation, I would have been clamoring uh years ago for a fix because we have a large
oversized vehicle right behind his house. It's probably 15 ft from a window of his home. Um and it just goes right down the line. So, what the proposal is is to kind of rein that in a little bit physically in that we don't need those um and then also to address some of
those um vehicles that are just kind of finding their way as as a default contractor's yard back there. >> Okay, Bill, two minutes. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, >> he's getting his steps in. >> Yeah.
Uh again, Bill Brad precinct one. As far as the boat, if the that boat does not have a cover, I have looked at it and there's fishing gear and such in there. If somehow by some means the equipment
that is in that open boat disappears. >> Uh is the town is the town responsible for the wash? >> We'll refer that to Aaron >> or the police or the town manager. Yeah.
>> I'm not going to touch on that. >> Okay, folks. Anybody else? >> Motion to close the public >> hearing a motion. >> Second. Okay. Um, we do have some motions. Dan, you want to read the motions? >> Yeah. The first one, I'll take a crack at housekeeping. I move to adopt all housekeeping changes
as presented in the red line document submitted to the board on September 9th and updated including the updates of October 21, 2025. >> Second a motion. >> These include items related to changes
based on discrepancies between the book and the signage on the ground. Changes reviewed and recommended by DTAC in response to requests from residents. a number of grammatical and formatting changes to improve readability.
>> I second the motion. >> Thanks. >> Sorry. All in favor? >> I >> I opposed. The next stand >> car carriers parked on route 114. I move to adopt the insertion of section 26 car carriers by motor vehicles under
article five vehicle operations on page 18 as presented in the redline document submitted to the board on September 9, 2025 meeting and after the motion is seconded. I have a comment. >> Hold on, Dan. Clerk, Madam Clerk, >> can we just revise that? It's not just
114. Thank you. >> It should read under like section um 26A where it says um within the travel lane or breakdown lane >> within a public way in the town of Danverse because it applies to just more than 114. Correct.
>> I think that was a header. I think I I think the motion is actually the bulleted item >> right below. Motion is fine. >> Okay. Right. That's where I was going to ask why is this limit to 114. Okay. >> But that's what the bullet says. So I'll scratch that. And it's association of section 26
>> um on the travel and public ways. Is that correct? >> Yes. >> Including High Street. >> There's no exceptions. >> No exceptions. Thank you. >> Okay.
>> So, we make a motion for that. I did. >> Okay. Who? Second. >> Motion. >> Okay. >> Um all in favor? >> I opposed. >> Okay. Thank you, Dan. >> I won't read the bullet here. I'll just I move to adopt the insertion of section 2 under article 11 appendices pages 30
to 32 as presented in the redline document submitted to the board in September 925 and updated on October 2125. >> Second the motion. >> All in favor? >> I >> oppose. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Aaron.
>> Thank you all very much. Um >> when's the next time you're going to revise it? probably tomorrow when I get the email. There's probably an email in my inbox right now that we didn't um >> I think this is the third time we've gone through this. >> Yeah. And again, that's something and I don't mean to belabor agenda item, but
>> if that really you guys can tell us I mean there are times when we feel something's important and and it might be two weeks from now. I mean, but typically I I in my head am thinking once a year, you know, we kind of let them build up and then when we get enough to trouble you with them, we
bring them forward. I think that's >> no trouble at all. >> I think that's about once a year, but it's been a little while. >> Thanks, Aaron. >> Thank you, Aaron. >> Madam Chair, >> yes. >> Could I suggest that we take the uh item nine and move it ahead of item eight? I think that uh it'll be a shorter
discussion and I think eight will be more robust and u and detailed. Everybody okay with that? I'm fine with that. Sure. Absolutely. All right. So, we're going to do So, you want the board will discuss the town manager goals the remainder of the fiscal 2026.
Um Dan and Mike were on the subcommittee. Um all the board members were asked to um submit what we want goals for the new town manager and objectives. And Dan, you want to touch base? >> Sure. Uh Mike and I met with the town
manager a couple of times. Um the first time was to really review all the suggestions from this board members. Uh there was quite a few of them. Um many of them um were the same from members. So there was some continuity and
agreement on some of the um the goals, but to get them all into something that made sense and to focus on what we feel is very important that now manager feels important. Uh really comes down to
community, employees, and customer service as well as a sound budget. and to look for specific small goals that we can check off really didn't make
sense this year. We really had a uh wanted to strengthen the culture town hall in town, community engagement, transparency, etc. Um and just some of the comments from fellow board members.
Uh Danis should be a welcoming community with no reigns. Um, Mike was looking for great service to the public. Gardner was looking for staff development, D, professional development, and myself
a budget policy that we could adopt. And I think we've captured those in these goals. >> I You didn't mention. >> I did. I said you were first. >> Oh, okay. >> Of course, you were first. >> Thank you, Dan. >> Okay. So, I think at the end of the um
two and a half hours that we spent with the town manager, we came up she came up with um a a good outline for her to to work on for the year. >> Yeah, you and Thank you, Mike and Dan. You did a really good job. I mean, we did put a lot on paper and they condensed it. You really did very well.
Um Donna, do you have anything to say? >> Uh I do. I um I reviewed these. I saw the I know what I put in. Um I don't know what the others put in because that's part of committee work to kind of distill it down. Um
I'm concerned that these are too vague. I manage many teams of people remotely internally you know and a goal has to be a smart goal. It has to be specific, measurable, achievable obviously
um uh and timebased. These goals are actually the job requirements. The the these items here are listed is what I would expect of the town manager as part of the role of town manager
roles and responsibilities. Goals are to be we want to see how you do on specific things. Now, you did mention one of mine, but my first one was develop a resolution to increase water capacity. We've talked about water capacity here. We've talked about uh
infrastructure, talked about our recreational facilities. In the past, we have and I also talked about this at the last meeting. This is a unique this is a new process to send this to subcommittee for distillation. In the past, we'd all thrown out 20 or 30. We'd sit through a
meeting or two, call it down to 10, and then take a vote, and the majority of those things would be voted. I don't I don't know how I'm going to other than a general feeling that the town manager is doing a good job on something. I can't measure develop and foster customer
service. What's the measurement? What's the task? Is it, you know, is it to improve a survey to improve customer satisfaction? Is it um we're going to introduce new programs to the town? Whatever it is, these are these are
from an HR perspective and from a senior management pers leader perspective in my company. I wouldn't allow my employees to have these goals because they are job responsibilities, not targeted goals that I can measure and say you beat that
metric. I'm really happy you're a four because you you know or a five because while I said do 50 things, you did 80 things. Um, so I'm I'm I understand first year. I'm not looking for the same depth of of of detail that I might when
it was Steve or even when it was Wayne, but I think there should be some specific, measurable, achievable items here, like come up with a plan for water for for water mitigation or whatever it is. We're never g we're not going to
solve that in a year. But if it's if it's something we say is a priority as a select board, this is what we should be helping the town manager understand as our prior priorities as a select board. And I had a whole lo host of them. Um so I'm I'm going to go with the will of the
board. But I just think these are are are lofty. I think that they are good things to have. There's not a thing here I disagree with. I don't think that in an HR perspective I would be able to measure her when we when we at the end
of the year when we do her an evaluation how am I going to qual quantify other than you know other than a a feeling a subjective feeling that it's a three or a four or a five so those are my thoughts
>> madam chair yes respond to more of the process um because I don't disagree >> u member tr um and that was the the goals submitted by the board went from very broad and you know something the town has been addressing for 25 years to
very narrow. So our job and what we were working on was um was to kind of come to some consensus and behind each of these goals um the members of the subcommittee have seen the action items, the measurable action items that get me to each one of these
goals. Um I sat down and I had about two and a half pages of goals and action items and the the um members thankfully said let's let's think broader and then when you come before us for your review you demonstrate which of the actions you
accomplished that meet those goals. So I agree with you um that you you need to have the measurable things behind them. So those are the specific actions are are behind them. We've discussed them. They're I'm working now from once
they're approved, right? So the most important goal, one of the most important goals here is organizational alignment, >> which is where we have to start, which is where we're pretty far from right now. Um and so step one moving past this
is okay I have kind of all I have all my tasks goals um behind how I see success how I measure success here and then meet with each of the division heads and um department heads to say okay let's talk about what projects you're working on
that are important to it what projects what new initiatives we're going to move forward but that is going to take us because of the way the management comp you were setting goals previously for the town manager in the fall and then not for the um and then not for the
managers till halfway through the fiscal year. So there was no way for any of that to line up and none of that lined up with the budget process. So the reason they're broad here is because we're trying to turn the whole aircraft carrier here to line up so that we can start to be in an order right that we
are making the board and I'm hopeful that we'll do a board retreat in the spring. I think I've talked to each of you about that board retreat will that will set the vision from the vision comes a town manager's goals which these would be updated with more actionable items in the spring because there'll be a budget discussion related to those.
The other part about goals goals need to influence the budget. Um and then from there that will be the first step in getting the division the department goals in line essentially take us a whole another year to get the budget cycle on track with that. So that's the
the purpose for these being as broad as they are this year. >> Prepare a structurally sound budget for fiscal year 2027. That's the law. >> Yeah. >> That's not that's not a goal that you can do it very well. >> Yeah. >> But that's a an absolute requirement of
the job as opposed to a goal which is a stretch goal or >> thing. So maybe I only had opportunity to see this this the actual supporting task of the subcommittee. Yeah. to submit that. >> Um I would feel more comfortable if I saw
the the measurable tasks that you know that that you're going to go for and I don't expect you to hit all of them at 100%. >> Yeah. And I'm more than happy to the plan. One of them says transparency and communications and that is regular project updates on this. So it would be at during my report once again once this
is it would be okay on each on each meeting there would be an update on we're working on this project. This project is related to this goal which is related to this objective. Right? It's all organizational alignment. So you would get repeating updates on those. But again,
the pro that was vague specifically because of the year we have six months to try to get things kind of aligned better. >> Okay. >> So that was the reasoning behind it. >> Great. Thank you, Joe. Okay. De, you have any questions on
>> uh yeah, thank you. Um and I agree with select board member T that having a smart goal is ideal. Um but I also um I think organizational alignment is
so important and I won't mind adding a certain level of subjectivity to the assessment as far as retaining qualified employees having the mood and the culture being a positive one. How do we
measure that? I mean there has to be some subjectivity. um if we if we lose 40% of our workforce in 6 months, maybe they're going for very good reasons, but there could be something
behind it uh that we would need to address. So I I'm I'm in support of these goals. I think there I think this is a lot. I mean, um I don't know if we adopt all of it or if this is just to
choose one of each. I'm not sure cuz there's a lot in here. Um and I also agree that as we go toward the spring and we will have some smart goal tied to the budget and do the two
together. So, I I'm definitely align with that and thanks to the subcommittee, >> Mike. >> Um, yeah, everybody's got excellent points. I think uh Gardner was very clear on uh how he expressed the need in
more specifics and uh totally makes sense. Um I think that um a lot of these lead into the next um and trying to get a hold of the uh culture and and making that work uh is going to lead right into
um fostering good care for the uh residents and anyone that comes into uh looking for assistance with the town. Um and uh so I'm happy with it. I understand the spec specific parts that
we need to hear and we will um I feel uh confident uh I I think the town manager is already expressing a different uh way of engaging with uh employees and and u
residents. Um the trash situation uh was handled uh really well and um and not so much in other communities. So, um, and that was dumped on her, uh, pretty quick. So, um, no pun intended.
It just happened. But, uh, so I I feel the next time we're, uh, reviewing, uh, some of these things, I think we're going to be able to see, uh, tangible, uh, items, um, that you're asking about. So, thank you. >> Great. Thank you, Dan.
No, I think um in the past we were eased able to pick out a certain item, a checklist so to speak. Um but with the transition Jill feels and I agree that she's really got to wrap her arms around the whole
picture to get it um she calls it an aircraft carrier. That's that's >> sounds like a good description. and get everybody on the same page and it will require us to sit with her and give us our direction.
>> So, um we gave her a lot of goals, a lot of things, but um it was kind of going two different all over the place. I felt that this brought it all down to um a direction for her to sail the ship and
next year. Obviously, we can be more specific with general items. Um, but I think the conversations we had, there's a need to do a lot of work without trying to check off more water
as an example. So, and I think Jill's list was like she's a page and a half of different bullet points which you would not have been able to digest and discuss. It was just too much. but all related to the
top bullets. >> No, no, I I agree. Um, remember this was a new process for us. I want to thank both Mike and Dan and Jill. They they all put a lot of time into it. Um, like she said with the aircraft carrier, she
has a lot and and look what she's done so far. people like Mike said with the trash um the community roundts um transparency she meets with um board members once a once a month anyways you
know um she's always open open door with the residents if you call I'm sure you can always um go in and see her and talk to it so um I think you've done a great job and um you know we're happy to have you and you've got a lot the biggest thing like we said is um like ADA said
um specific measurable goals, make sure they're attainable. Um but this is pretty much like almost like a boiler plate and she now we give this to her and then she'll report back to us, you know, how she's how these goals are being um completed. So um at this point,
do we have a motion to about these goals and object objectives? Well, I would make a motion that we accept the proposed town manager goals and objectives for 25 to June 26. Certainly with the eye to improving
goals in the future. >> Do I have a second? >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I >> opposed. >> Thank you. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. And I look forward to reporting back on achievements. >> All right. So, we moved that. Let's see.
So, we're going to go to All right. So, here we go. The board will continue discussion of recommendations by the town manager town meeting manager acts review committee. All right folks, I've been doing a lot of homework stuff in there. Oh my
goodness. >> Thank you for everybody that came. >> Emptying out. >> All right, so tonight we're going to begin deliberations on the changes to the town manager act. We'll consider the recommendations of the re review committee. We'll also consider any any items select board members would like to
introduce. Thank you for sub submitting them in advance. Be sure to bring them up when we get to the appropriate section. We'll start with the housekeeping items and then move through uh documentation document section by section. We have provided a chart that
summarizes um the review committee recommendations to help guide the discussions. So folks, the goal tonight is to determine the consensus of the board on the items we discussed. staff will then work with the town council to update the redline
version of the document to reflect our deliberations. So, this is deliberations right now. Um, we will then review and discuss the updated version and an upcoming meeting and entertain motions to create a warrant article at that time. No motions for tonight. Any
questions right now about the process? >> Uh, quick question about the process. We did receive a um uh Thank you. a a a detailed schedule of when things will be heard, who will hear it, so on and so forth. I just want to make sure that uh the one I'm looking at is um tonight,
October to November, select board review and discuss proposals, create the warrant. Um and then in November, present presentation of the report to FINCOM by Sally. Thank you for in the committee for all your hard work. um is that going to be a presentation of what they're
recommending or what the result of what we come up with now. >> So that is that is the recommendations of the review committee so that they can get an initial an initial um presentation on of their work while you
guys are still deliberating. >> Okay. And then that the you as a select board will not finalize your warrant articles until until that has happened your deliberations that has happened then you'll finalize your warrant articles
and have a public hearing um so that they have an opportunity to have a public hearing. So and then what goes to fin obviously because they only have one shot at it right to um essentially um is ba then they'll come to you and it'll be a public hearing on the select board
warrant article. So, it's an opportunity for Fincom. It's like a primer for Fincom on like you guys had earlier. And I just sorry I just want to add to make sure everyone realizes K Conley Town Council is in the room for >> the discussion tonight. >> And if there's an aha moment when you
present to Fincom, this is a great idea. Someone, you know, CI comes up with something says we all agree we love it. Does that come back to this board or will we wait for Fincom to make their edits? >> No, you have the opportunity. It's if you have the opportunity to introduce it. >> I Okay. I would I would love to hear
what their thoughts are. >> Yes. That's why we're trying. We're mixing it up a little. >> Okay. >> In the normal flow of warrant articles, they would then if their meetings make amendments and chang >> which they they'll still have that opportunity. >> Okay. I was just trying to figure out >> a best way of partnering because they're
going to see things with different eyes than I do because they're fin >> and that's this is our first stab at that best way of partnering because that was brought up by member Bennett and and the chair. um and previously by and I think you left Aaron Henry when it came to zoning articles is there's got to be
a way to get ahead get in front of fincom before it's you know two weeks before town meeting. So um so this is we're trying it out here. >> Great. Excellent. um to you madam chair
still in in the process and just so I understand when we draft the warren article that goes to fin for their recommendation at the end is that correct >> yes >> okay now given the fact that this has
nothing to do and maybe other select board member who are more experienced can explain this to me this has nothing to do with finance like there's no budgeting there's no money. Why do we need the FINCOM recommendation?
Uh >> isn't it because it's similar to a bylaw? We we and there are articles in here discussing specifically FINCOM, their duties and responsibilities, but >> anything that goes before town meeting >> has to be reviewed by FINCOM >> regardless of recommendation involves
money or not. >> It whether it has money or not. Finom looks at every single warrant article independent of financial obligation. >> Okay. >> Um town council has worked with number of committee or town. So I don't know Kate if you want to comment on that kind
of that process as it relates to town meeting and some are called finance committees some are called war committees. So >> certainly through you madam chair Kate Connelly with Murphy Hessie Tumi and Leah Hane. Yes, in every municipality, the finance committee reviews or or whatever it's called, uh reviews every
warrant article, even if there's no financial component, and they typically, with respect to things like zoning articles, they just say they have no recommendation or they approve it with no comment or something to that effect. >> Great. >> Okay,
>> thank you. >> Any other questions, Dan? >> No, no questions yet. Um, I want to thank Sally Calhoun and and the committee for being here tonight. Kate, thank you and welcome. Um, so what we're going to go right into is the housekeeping. There's several
grammatical changes, capitalizations, etc. included in the recommendations. They are summarized on pages one through four of the chart that are found throughout the red line document. We will refer to these as all housekeeping.
You we're starting with the town meeting act first and then doing town manager act. Correct. >> We're just going to do just meeting tonight. >> Town meeting. >> Oh, we're not doing town manager. >> No, we're going to do that. It's too long. Yeah. >> Okay. These are both the same. >> Yeah. >> So, you have this gardener too for changes. I have this.
>> So, all board members have some sheets >> working document. Working. I have this. >> That's just to keep your notes. >> It's just for us and just so the public knows. It's um to go through all this because thank you and we appreciate all your work like we said for us to make any um change you know what we're what
what we're going to deliberate about what you know what Garner would like and Mike or D and myself >> can I recommend that we chunk where we can but some of these are going to be individual so I would be willing to make a motion that we adopt all the housekeeping items >> right >> identified in the first table for
changing capitalization select men to select board things of that nature all of those grammatical housekeeping things. I move we accept as presented in this >> and we don't need a motion. It's just kind of the will of the board. >> Then I'm good with all that. >> So what we're going to do Ghana just so you know so we refer to all the housekeeping changes like you said. I
would like to do that too. Y >> any discussion I'll ask you and what's you know what the what's the board think and then we'll move on. >> Okay. >> Okay. So is there any discussion on the housekeeping recommended changing changes at all? Mike? >> No. >> Gardner?
>> No changes. Dan >> um I have some questions on specific pages but as far as changing select board selectment of select board >> capitalizing town clerk
um I have no I think we can do that as one item capitalization as I look through these first couple of pages capitalize and that's that's fine to approve goes to go forwards.
I don't think there's anything in there that No, I think pages one through one through one through four, I think. That's why I stapled them that way. They're all together. >> And there you go. That makes sense. Those are all the housekeeping and changing.
>> Yeah, that that's fine. >> Okay. >> Yep. One page on page one through four as I see it. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. So, are you okay with that? >> I am. >> All right. So terrific. We'll move on. Section one. The recommended changes in this section is essentially prescriptive and further define the process for
establishing precincts. They are summarized on page five and six of the chart in pages one through three of the red line document. >> Um I'm sorry. Going back housekeeping, there were some things in on pages one through four
that had I had a question about >> Okay. >> Um section one, page one. Um and this is a general question probably for legal counsel. I printed out some of the laws that you referred
to uh that were referred to. I printed out, you know, and looked at it. This document when last amended probably can ported to the to the state law at that time but um the total is prescribed by the law on section one page one uh
but no more than 4,000 inhabitants per precinct. I think the number was different. At what point do we say none of this supersedes state law? If state law changes, any hard numbers we put in here
are uh are are are compelled by state law. So state law changes a number 10 to 50 just because we have 10 in our charter. At what point do we say we don't transcend state law?
>> Um so a couple of different things. Supersing is a little bit different from complying with laws as they change. for to answer the first part of your question. Typically what municipalities do is they just cite the state statute as may be amended from time to time. >> Okay.
>> Or as may be amended. Um and as far the word supersede, I call that out simply because municipalities do have the authority under their home rule powers from of the Massachusetts Constitution. You have the authority to adopt more stringent local bylaws and ordinances
than state law in certain respects. you just can't be inconsistent with state law. So there are certain things you can't change at all in state laws, but one one good example is um with respect to wetlands protection. >> You can have a local bylaw that in five
or six major areas is more stringent than under the minimum statewide standards of the state wetlands protection act. So the state statute has minimum standards. You can't require anything less than that, but you can require more. You can regulate a buffer zone as opposed to just regulating
actual wetland resource areas. You can um put additional values and interests of the protected resource areas. And there's many other areas of town in which you can do that. Not just land use, not just wetlands, but you can have certain things that are more stringent unless the state statute says that you
can't. And I know some of your recommendations were changing numbers. Um you can do that in certain things if you want to be again more stringent and require more signitories to a petition right
>> um in that respect yeah sometimes you can do that but you can't be less stringent you can't change state law and be less stringent >> okay you're right I think I asked two questions at the same time or mixed questions one is um in some cases I'm looking just to conform to the state law
and not presume that if we have a number It's by intent to be more stringent. But in the example you just brought up, if um nomination papers by law take 10 signatures, if we decided that we wanted more uh that it should be 25, more
representative, would that be considered more stringent or outside the purview of our ability? >> You have to look at each statute and I there's several and I know town clerk did provide you with a couple of them um earlier. There are there's also the
Secretary of State's office puts out an election guide. Oh, I think I left it over here. Um, so depending on what Oh, thank you. >> Thank you. Depending on the position that someone Yeah, it's how to run for
office in Massachusetts. It's got charts. Depending on the position, whether it's federal, state, or local that somebody wants to run for, there's a different number of signatures that's required. And there are several different statutes that govern all of those different positions. So you'd have
to look at them and just make sure that the state statute doesn't say this is it. You can't change it locally. And if it doesn't preclude that, then you can change it locally and be more stringent. >> Okay. later I'll I'll I guess I'll get with you about some recommendations for something new that isn't wasn't part of
the review committee um relating to section uh you know uh chapter 39 section 10 uh and and talking about uh warrants and signatures to get warrants. So um devil's in the details and I'll I'll work with you to get the details
out. >> Okay, >> thanks. But I guess back to my original comment is do we need some sort of dunning message in in the act that says we follow all state laws as amended? >> No, that goes without saying because if you don't follow state laws, you're
going to be in trouble. So that's superfluous. You don't need to say it. >> Very good. I work in a I work in an industry that is very medically and legally based. So we have to cover all our tracks. >> Understood. >> Thank you. And madam chair. Yes. Um just
again to review for the process um for this is exactly what we were hoping for tonight that we'll get a sense of your ideas and the consensus of the board and what you want us to take and keep working on. So what we bring back for you to make final motions on and and
vote on um will have passed uh legal muster at that time. So we won't put anything in front of you that that's not >> past Kate's eyes. >> Okay. And then the other the other one that's maybe a little bit legal ease and I don't mean that in a bad way is ever since I've been on the board there's
always been a discussion about there's a big difference between the words will shall and may and on page section one page two uh shall maintain records. Do we have to make a more affirmative statement?
>> Shall is mandatory? So if you say shall you have to do it. >> Okay. Very good. Thank you. >> Um if you want discretion it's may. >> Very good. Thank you. All right. So, I'm So, that those are my questions on pages one through four. Thank you. >> Great.
>> Or yeah, one and two. >> All right, >> that was section one. We'll go to section two. The recommended changes in this section change the number of town meeting members from from each precinct to 18 to
15. It includes all of the additional changes that are necessary to facilitate the change. These changes are summarized on pages six and seven of the chart and pages three and five of the red line document. Note this change is not re recommended by legal counsel.
Um any discussion? Uh Mike um anything with that? Um, I think uh I think Sally might have said it that we have trouble trying to fill the 18 positions all the time. Um, but it was it was not recommended legally,
right? Is that what that said. So, um, so then I guess I'm going to stick with it. >> Stick with the legal opinion, right? Yeah, Dan. >> Well, to quote Mr. D. >> Yeah. We need to do a better job of encouraging people to run and educate them
>> to run for town meeting. I think that's the way to go, not to cut it. >> We're on section 2D right here. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Do you have any anything bad enough? >> I I agree that we should leave it as is. It was uh so I I I went back and looked
at the uh the times we changed it or actually I looked at the last four censuses um and looked at the percentage of voters as representation. But the bottom line's going to be if it is state law that that kind of
calculates this. I understand the intent. I understand the desire to encourage participation, but this document is a prescriptive document about how things should be run and less of a marketing document. I
don't think we should tweak for marketing purposes for uh I think we can do that marketing purpose. I think we can do that outreach, but not in the act itself. Um so if we if the goal is let's get more people fired up about being town
meeting members, great. Um, but I don't think we have to codify it here is my feeling. But and again, I'm going to fall back on the this is not this is not an I don't think this is an opportunity to supersede a state law and I would stick with what the state law says.
>> Excellent. >> All right. >> Madam Chair, may I suggest for the will for the public because we have a lot of the committee members here if if Kate could just explain. >> Yeah. So you guys don't think we're crazy. Yes, through you, Madam Chair, to
town manager and the previous speaker. Um, I'll try to keep it short, but the statute is chapter 43A section 4. This this change we do not recommend because it potentially violates the state statute. Massachusetts requires by statute that every precinct gets
representatives based on the population size. So, the more people that live in your precinct, the more representatives you get. Mhm. >> And the proposed change putting 15 members for every precinct regardless of population size is a violation of the state statute. So I agree with select
member Tras. You can't. This is not something where you can be more stringent or change it. It requires that you make the decision based on the population. >> Thank you. >> I think you could have, if I may, Madam Chair, >> I think you could have less total. It's
the prescriptiveness of the approach. >> That's correct. >> Okay. Excellent. Thank you for that clarification. >> And and by the way, it did go to from 15 to eight for 18 in 2010 because we had a 6% increase in the population between
the in those 10 years. Um and that's I looked it up online and I looked it up. The Salem News reported it as well. >> Yeah. >> So, okay. Good. No, I'm going to go with the what the legal opinion is, too. So we could change it to the number of
times but we can't say >> correct that's >> so we could do 15 * 8 just say that number instead of >> I don't know that I can answer that >> so we could ask
me and that would be legal and then we divide into Math is not my area. But >> I I think what you said I think what you said was I think what you said was it's based on it's a calculation based on population as divided by the number of
precincts. >> Right. >> So you can't arbitrarily artificially say cap all the number at 120. What the number that was capped is 4,000 people. No more than 4,000 people per precinct. If we had a population explosion and
ended up with an average of 4,500, we'd have to reprecinct and add precincts from which then the number of of of of precinct members would be calculated. >> Correct. And if I may just to add to that, the statute also says the largest
number representative town members shall in each precinct consist of the largest number divisible by three. Mhm. >> So there isn't a cap per se, but whatever the largest number of members in each precinct is, it's got to be divisible by three.
>> This is going to take >> Madam Chairman, I thought we were just ourselves. >> Yeah. So this is just I'm sorry uh to the public and I don't this is just public hearing will come later. The public hearing, as we said, is going to come in December, and this is just for select board deliberations for us to
really discuss this and then we'll bring it back to you. >> And if you want to submit questions through us through through my office to bring back in case I'm sure that the select board or through select board members, I'm sure they want to hear them. But because it's deliberations and there's public versus a public hearing,
if there was a hundred of you in the room, we obviously wouldn't be able to do this and we have to treat everybody fairly. So, can I ask a question? Disregarding the popular Good number madam chair that's up to you. I just I just have one question like for example has 50 total town meeting numbers and
then divide it up between pre. So like you just pick like a total number or it just seems like if you wanted to reduce it to 15 >> I think he needs to ask call the second. Yeah Mike sorry. Yeah so you can bring
that to us you know during the public >> hearing. Okay thank you. Anybody else? Okay. Um, section three, the recommendate recommended changes in the section address the proceedings of the town meeting. These changes are summarized on
page seven of the chart. >> Sorry, before we get to section three, section two um on page uh four, it was the striking of uh halfway down um other than offices
designated so on and so forth. My question is when I when I read that and saw the red line, I wonder if it opens up an opportunity for conver confusion. This is very
specific. And by its omission, do we do we add some ambiguity? So halfway down uh um where it says uh uh after the the red line, it says 15. >> Mhm. um register of voters residing in the precinct other than the officers
designating section three and town meeting members at large um as provided by the first sentence of the section. And if the answer is no, that's fine. I just it was I didn't understand how the removal
improved the intent or what the what the thought process was behind the removal. And I don't want to put Sally on the spot, but but but it it was >> Sally, go up to the podium, please.
>> I'm confused which one we >> page four. >> Um my name is Sally Calhoun, uh town meeting member and the chair of this committee as appointed by the the uh moderator. So, um,
what we were trying to do, the the phrase that's crossed out other than the officers designated in section three as town meeting members at large, that's the reference to the select board. The select board are town meeting members at large. Mhm. >> And we're trying in our work to kind of
reinvigorate the concept of town meeting members being um um voted by their constituents and being at town meeting to represent their particular precinct. On the other hand, the select board are
members at large representing the town as a whole. Y >> so that was kind of what's behind all of that. So we're we're the what we're carving out is the ATL large meeting the at large members of town meeting.
>> So we're talking about voting. >> Yeah. You're trying to precinct and but by but you've removed as opposed to saying >> except select board members. >> Yes. >> Which is the intent is to say it's just to say so. I didn't know if the removal would add confusion. If the board
doesn't think so fine. I'm I'm cool. Okay board members any any discussion? What's the will on the board on this section two? >> Uh I don't think we're voting. >> We're not voting. No, but I know anymore.
>> Just a sense of where you're at. >> We're not voting. >> Okay. Everybody's good. >> Yep. >> Okay. So, we're going to move on to section three. >> I'm sorry. Yeah. So do now that we are not changing or we if we think we're not
changing from from 18 to 15 do we then keep that language um in the >> I I think the consensus that I heard was we're not embracing that language. It would revert back to its existing language.
>> Okay. So it's not just the number but it's everything else >> that goes with it. >> That goes with it. >> That goes with it. >> Okay. Thank you. >> You're welcome. All right. Section three, the recommended changes in the section address the proceedings of town meeting. The changes are summarized on page seven
of the chart in pages five and six of the red line document. >> Um, >> want to go to that, Gardner? Start. >> I'll I'll stop. I don't I don't mean to always start. Let other people start. >> Um, page five. Uh,
um, section section three, page five. you're deleting um voters here and I realize it's a small thing but what it says is any representative town meeting held under the provisions of the act except otherwise provided here and shall be limited to the town meeting members
elected is that inadvertently saying that only elected town meeting members can be at town meeting particip I realize they can't vote at town meet But we're an open town meeting. We're not an open, that's not
the wrong word. We are a public meeting by which citizens who are not elected are welcome and encouraged to attend and and listen and maybe offer debate points. But if you strike voters and put in town meeting members here, are you
unintentionally limiting the town meeting to only town meeting members? >> Doesn't Am I wrong? It says right here that it's >> But Kate Kate, can you answer that please? >> It says it's shall be open to the public. Yeah. >> On page six.
>> Certainly. Um, Madam Chair, again, Kate Connley Town Council. Typically, town meetings >> through the moderator vote to authorize certain individuals to speak because often you may have like, for example, a warrant article involving a zoning change. You might have an engineer that
doesn't live in town who's going to do a presentation. So, they are allowed to speak. But what usually happens is they the non voting members whether it's a town meeting like Denver has with representative or it's open anybody who doesn't live in town sits in a certain area reporters sometimes might be
attending they sit in a certain area and then anyone who thinks they might want to speak the moderator takes a vote at the beginning of the meeting and typically will different towns do it differently but typically they'll identify the individuals. I've been at town meetings where I have to stand up as town council as one of the people
that gets voted in to speak and of course they vote me in because usually they want to hear what I say. But um that that's how it's done. is it doesn't this language I don't think would preclude okay >> people from speaking but if that's the concern I would suggest that it's it be handled through the moderator just
asking for a vote for anyone who's not a representative town meeting member to speak >> add a little bit >> what the language originally said that um any representative town meeting held under the provisions of this act except
as otherwise provided herein shall be limited to the voters elected under section two. So it said it's limited to the voters elected under section two. The word voter appearing there to us seemed
confusing. So what we're trying to say is it's town it's the elected town meeting members plus the uh select board designated as at large. So there wasn't intended to limit who can participate there. It is
open meeting and there are rules for the con conduct of the town meeting which allows recognition of non non-town meeting members to speak >> and and please I hope I didn't infer intent. I I my concern is
>> No, I realize I realize that and that's I wanted to clarify where our intent was by pointing out what it says currently and what we're proposing to change it to. >> Great. Thanks. Anybody else? Dan? >> No. >> D. Okay. >> Mike.
>> No. >> All right. So, section four. >> Madam Chair, can I just ask is that to say that the consensus is to to move forward with the recommended changes? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay.
>> I know this is confusing and new for everyone. So, I'm just I want to make sure we bring back what you guys are looking for. >> All right. Section four, the recommended changes in the section refer change in the process for reelection of town meeting members to require incumbents to file nomination papers with 10
signatures prescribes the materials. The clerk shall decimate candidates. The these changes are summarized on page eight of the chart and page seven of the red line document. This change is not recommended by legal. >> So,
Madam Chair, do you want Kate to get up? >> Kate, could you please get up and explain why it's not recommended? >> Certainly, Madam Chair. >> This cannot be a requirement because it's inconsistent with the statute. This is another one of those that's governed by statute. You can't change it. the uh
it's chapter 43A section six which gives current town meeting members two options for reelection. One is collect signatures or two is simply file a written notice with the town clerk. The current section 4 of the town meeting act is consistent with 43A
section 6 and it does not require incumbent candidates to submit signatures, but this proposed change would not align with state law. Ergo, we move on. >> Yeah. Any discussion >> on that one? >> All right.
>> So So that means that we revert back to the original language. Uh or do we and no more edit on the section. Is that correct? >> Not on the section. on the on that portion of the section >> the on the on the subject of requiring
the committee suggested that incumbents are also compelled to get 10 signatures. It was a recommendation. I actually kind of like it. But if if if we decide as a consensus that that's not what we're going to put in our warrant article, it reverts back to the way it was.
>> Madam Chair, can we hear? >> Is that I'm sorry. Sorry, I didn't say I was looking down. >> Thank you. just to to point out the obvious I suppose is that was one of our recommendations in section 4, but we also have the final sentence which
appears as rather than we're also recommending that which uh has to do with offering town clerk offering information to candid uh to candidates when they come in with their papers. >> I know that's already done. We wanted to incorporate it in to again uh in
furtherance of our goal to keep Tom meeting members as uh informed and as involved and as active as as we could through this document. >> And that's why when D asked are we are we reverting the section I was clear
because I do want to talk about that last sentence as part of this. So I think what we were just discussing was the fif the 10 incumbents getting 10 signatures. I'm fine with the recommend with I'm fine not adopting the recommendation based on the legal issues
we may face. >> Okay, perfect. And and then the session that's deleted, we should reinstate that as well prior to Yes. The final >> that will come back. >> So that will come back. >> Okay. >> Now you're talking about the last sentence. Well, no. D was talking about
the strikeout we >> strike out. >> Now we're on the last sentence and I'd like to we're trying to use with the flow of the chart, but let me know if it's not working because we'll do something. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. >> You good? Go ahead. >> I'm good till we get to the point you're discussing last time. >> All right. Yep. Do you want to discuss
that? >> I I I think the last sentence uh I mean I agree that we add that. We may just want to add the language uh there about the people um going on for reelection.
It says upon the filing of sign nom nomination papers the town cler shall so maybe we can say the nomination papers or return of the written notice from the people running for reelections cuz now
they're getting reinstated. They don't they don't need to do nomination papers anymore. So we may want to add that into that last >> well they probably when they got reelected elected the first time they turned in their nomination papers they
received it assuming it's people now that are running for the first time they're getting the signatures. So the incumbents of they're incumbent they already received it. So I think it should be moot. What if there's an update?
>> Well, the so for example, if you're an incumbent, you're going to get the budgets, the warrant articles, all of that information by due course of you being currently a elected official. >> Okay? >> So, those things will happen. So, yes, every budget, every year, budget
changes, or changes, so on and so forth. But the town meeting handbook, unless there's been a revision or >> takes every 30 years, what's next? Yeah. >> Um, but I actually take us an I take an opposite view. I don't think this section's warranted. And here's
why. A couple of reasons. One is technically there's some ambiguity written in there. Time to time is not specific. Your time to time might be different than my time to time. Your other information regarding well the town clerk may decide
these five documents are the important ones but not pass out something else because they didn't think it was relevant. This is a good practice. This is not a prescriptive. The town meeting act is a is a cake
recipe. How you do things. Here's the components. Here's how you do it. And if it says, you know, the cake recipe says two eggs, you know, it doesn't tell you to beat them lightly or do, you know, do it this way, do it that way. I think I think the that section right there to me
is a sound practice that should be adopted but not codified in a town meeting act that doesn't change every 30 years. Just my thought. I I don't think it's I don't I think we should leave aside sound practices and recommendations and
and and participary participatory marketing and focus on these are the rules. Here's what we say. That's just my thought on this being a contractual legally binding document, a legal document. So if nothing else, I
think he would have to enumerate what information and enumerate times specific times because I think time the statement from time to time may be just a bit ambiguous for a legal document.
My thoughts? I agree. >> Agree. >> Agree with Gner. >> I mean, we're trying to >> create some policies >> or procedures rather that make sense, but we can't cover everything. We'd have
to have a document, legal document that we shall do these things like get a new town clerk. >> I don't see that in the document at all. But I could go out for coffee. >> Yes.
>> At any time. >> It's like the zone. It's like the ZBA or a warrant, a citizen's warrant. It has to meet a legal muster. It has to have a legal >> Well, this is this is allowed. It's legal. It's not necessary. >> Yeah. Okay.
>> Are we good? So, >> well, no. I think I think I think I'm hearing Dan and I say one more saying. >> I'd like to hear what my cast is thinking. I did not think about it that way until you said it. So now you
because I was in favor of it. I do think that if we leave it out, we we should not just let it die. We should actually make it a practice. Uh I I think >> the town clerk is responsible to the town manager will see that all town
meeting members will get the necessary documents. >> Yeah. I think I think that >> if it doesn't if we don't add it in this section, >> we have to make it a point to to make it a practice. >> Uh but I I understand your point about
the fact that it's vague. >> And if you don't mind, just a quick thing. I want the committee to know I really value the work you put into this and I really value that Sally is able to give us context behind it. I'm not trying to pick apart the work of the committee. I'm trying to say this is if
we're only changing this every 20 and I'm going to go with the 20 years. Every 20 years, >> I think it has to be specific and prescriptive. >> I agree. Yeah. >> I think the uh the the words time to time probably is too vague. Maybe just
say that by the first of the year the town meeting handbook is reviewed and updated if needed and and that part moves along. Are you suggesting it stay with revisions or my recommendation is
omission? I think I heard Dan said similar. >> I agree with what God did stated. >> Are you saying take it out of this? >> Yes. It's a it's a it's a great >> Don't Yeah, don't add it. >> Don't add it. >> Don't add it. Okay.
>> But would it be uh if it's not in here, is it going to be a policy someplace? >> Yes. Well, I just said I just said that the town manager with our direction >> will see all the town meeting members get >> what they need through the clerk, >> but just not necessarily written here. >> Correct.
>> But um madam clerk, would you like to say something? >> The town the town meeting handbook is available online. So anybody everybody has the option to look at it online. I always have those copies available in my office and certainly as people pull papers I can have them next to the book.
it's not really an issue, but the book itself isn't updated that often. Um, it I I believe the moderator and I talked about updating that town meeting handbook once this process is complete because there may be changes to it that should be incorporated. So, we would
probably update that once this is all finalized. We'll update the book and then make sure everybody is aware um on the uh town meeting members that are up for reelection and want to use the declaration form. Um I can certainly add
a link to that to say your town meeting handbook can be found on the website at this location. So I mean there are certainly things we can do to encourage them to keep an eye on that. But often sometimes at town meeting people will come up and say hey do you have an extra copy of the handbook? And I always have
them with me at town meeting as well. >> Great. Okay. You All right, we'll go to section six. This section addresses >> Sorry, it's speeding quite along. >> Still on section five. >> I'm sorry. >> Page seven. >> Oh, I not to page seven. Um, okay.
>> You added the words election and struck the words meeting at the very top of section five. Um the articles in the warrant for every town election so far as they relate the warrant is decided by town meeting
not by an election. We it's not a general election that that unless in this phrase election is meant election at town meeting. >> So more clarification >> well I'm again
>> Sally. Yeah. explain where we're coming from. That's >> helpful. >> As we as we grappled with the language especially of the Town Meeting Act, there were lots of old phrases and lots of words that were used to mean different things um through the course
of the document. And one was that every now and again there would be references to a town election. And sometimes the language made it clear that was t the language referred to town meeting. here. What we're trying to say is that the the
whole all the registered voters of the town have the right to be involved in the election of the moderator, town officers such as the select board, the library board, the the uh school committee um and town meeting members.
So the voters of the town, all the voters of the town are involved in the election of those positions. Yes, I agree. Yeah. >> Um and any other matter that according to this town um meeting act
>> there can be other matters that are to be acted and determined by ballot. Again, that was another phrase that appeared throughout and it referred to matters that the whole populace, all registered voters can vote on, not just town meeting members. So, we were trying
to maintain that separation. There's and and perhaps the the problem with it is the old language referred to articles in the warrant and that's really as you say it's not really what happens. What happens is there's a town election and at town election everything that's supposed to be uh voted on by the
registered voters is to be voted on by them. >> It's only town meeting member town meeting matters that are uh open for vote solely by representative town meeting members. So we were trying to preserve that distinction which appeared
in the old language in a very confusing and inartful way. We had we really took a long time for us to figure out what this section was saying. So again the difference we're trying to uh describe here is the matters that all town voters can
vote on if they so wish and matters that only representative town meeting members can vote on. That's all that this was intended to do. And maybe the clarification is to get rid of that phrase about articles in the warrant for every town election. >> That's my concern is the proximity of the words warrant to election
>> and that and the reason it was there is because it was in the old language which we were trying to make more precise. >> So if if we could ask for maybe the town council to help with clarity. It's really about the proximity. >> Kate, please.
I didn't mean tonight draft language if the board feels um sorry madam chair I threw you >> um if the board feels >> like they want to contemplate that further we can um we can take that intent of the review committee and bring
it back with council and bring you some updated draft language. >> Great. >> If that's Yeah, that's fine. >> I think that's the best way to go because I'm I'm reading the actual language of this and I agree with some of the things that Sally said. Um but warrant means as selectman Tra pointed
out that means town meeting that's got nothing to do with elections. Also the moderator is elected at town meeting. those other positions are elected at the election and ballot questions go >> well that's the next section >> except that's not true >> except you guys do things a little bit
differently right in terms of >> so all right so the so >> then that part's correct it's just and I I know what they're trying to do here and they're correct to say these these warrant articles related to the election of these
positions are for the election not for the town meeting, but then it goes into talking about uh provided referenda and all matters to be act upon and determined by ballot. So, I think it's kind this section is confusing two things. And I think that
>> we need a little bit of time to maybe separate out >> the the warrant articles that relate to the election and then ballot questions that relate to other election items such as referendum questions and other
um elected positions. >> Great. >> Okay. >> Thank you. Anything else, Gardner? >> No, that's it for section five. Sorry. I'm sorry. I was very methodical about going through this.
>> Everybody good with five so far? Dan? >> Yep. >> B >> Mike? Okay. >> So, we'll go to section six. The section addresses the election of the moderator and moderator proto. >> And I have a question on section six.
The moderator shall be elected by ballot at each annual >> town meeting. All right. Does that not mean should be town election? >> And that's what we were just talking about, >> right? Because um a moderator is on the ballot. It's an election. It's not at
the done at the meeting. >> Right. >> So that should be changed, >> right? >> So I'll add that to our list with Kate. >> And yeah, >> that will take up the things you have the whole whole thing might need to be reviewed. Yeah, >> I think so. including the filling of the
position in the event of a uh in the event of uh the town moderator wins the lottery moves to Jamaica. Um here it says a the town moderators voted at the town meeting and b it is the um uh uh
town meeting that uh fills the vacancy. >> What I have a question. What about if we had a vacancy say that did happen and she moved. What if the we could either have the clerk or a fincom member? >> Well, you either have a new election depending on the timing, right? >> But the town meeting body shall elect a
temporary member to be moderator, >> right? >> And history has done that, shown that. >> Y and I and I'd be fine with that. Yeah, >> I'd be fine with that. I and we wouldn't even have we wouldn't have that person would be elected that person would be
elected at town meeting to serve the remaining term of the current person >> or that meeting >> for that meeting. Well, you could have another special meeting. Well, that's a discussion. >> Well, that's a discussion, right? Yeah. >> Do what if we're at the annual town meeting and happy for Pat that she won the lottery. Um and she she moves on.
>> I wonder if state law might kick in there with some recommendation. So town meeting elects uh you know uh Fred >> temporary >> for that meeting. Does Ted does Fred serve the ter the entire term or because we may have another special town meeting
again or at each town meeting the vacancy is fil refilled. I would presume that if we elect Fred Fred stays until the next general election. Well, you you you're going to elect somebody that's a current town meeting member.
Not necessarily make them the permanent >> Well, she's not a town meeting member, >> right? No, but you wouldn't make them the permanent moderator. You'd have election. I would think >> the next general election just like Moren's on the board because we had a vacancy and we all decided as select
board members, please can you serve? She did until the next election. Um independent of the fact that it was a three-year term. So, >> I'm going to ask that the the manager and the attorney look at section six and >> yeah,
>> come back to us. I'm not comfortable with the way it's written >> because right because I don't know the state law on this >> and madam chair just have I asked can I ask for some clarification I get the big picture of what we're looking at but I think one of the changes here that I just want to get a sense of the will of
the board is and I think um one of you were getting there do is it the will do you guys want to include that the the promp has to be a current town meeting member or would you have the option to choose a fincom member or an option. >> They're not a member of I would say town
meeting member. >> Okay, that's exactly my guess and I'm getting a sense from you. >> Well, I >> that's my thought. >> We've had people come in that were well select board. They don't necessarily have to be current select board members. So, we could have people who we respect
as you know that uh would be a good town moderator. um outside uh you know we often tap on like Mike Powers as someone who leads a committee because of his experience. >> Are we talking during the meeting that
this moderator steps down in during the meeting? >> I think number one is it is my intent that the town me moderator be elected at a general election. That's number one. If there's a vacancy, it be filled by a vote of town meeting
to complete the term. And I'm not sure I would want to necessarily restricted to an existing town meeting member. >> Well, I'm thinking in the case of during the meeting, the moderator steps down for a particular article. Who's going to be the moderator? The members will pick one of their own
>> temporarily to fill in. >> Or would we do what we do now? For example, the town clerk serves as as a prom when we come to uh electing our chair. Um the chair is not there. So steps in and and ad does the
administration of the vote. Um do we if the town moderator today, town clerk, have we ever had a town moderator step away for um >> and not a >> not that I'm aware of. There was just before
>> um Peter Zuk stepped down and um selectman McKenna was voted by town meeting members to serve that as moderator for that particular article. >> If that's the way we want to go and find that >> well that's what happened in the past. >> Okay.
>> Now as far as somebody steps out of the position is no longer able to serve or willing I I think we need to go to state law. Um, do we call a special election or does I don't think I don't think town
meeting members would vote a permanent? >> I I No. Why? Why not? We voted we voted for to fill vacancies until the next general election independent of the three-year term. In this case, Mart, it doesn't matter. Every election is an election.
So I don't know that I would be uncomfortable with town meeting voting on a temporary town moderator to administer that town to administer there. I I don't know that we'd want to
go through the the cost of an effort of a special election. >> So why would we just have the clerk or a finan member do it temporary? Well, that person would have to be elected in some manner. Appointed or elected in some manner. >> Not appointed, elected by the town
meeting members. >> Elected. >> Okay. I'm fine with that. I'm fine with town meeting members. >> But then the next question you asked was, do we limit it the candidates only to the town meeting member pool? And I was not particularly comfortable with that. But none of this is a hill I'm
willing to die on. >> The red line, is that added, Sally? I'm sorry. >> Yeah, >> that was added. You didn't have a um there was no language before that. >> Correct. >> That's just for prom, >> right? >> Yeah.
>> Like somebody's absent. >> So I think we talking about different things. >> Yeah. Two different things. >> So the poor attempt is if the town moderator is not >> able to do that one meeting then we have
a poor attempt. who should be a town meeting member elected by town meeting members. >> Okay, I'll go with that. I'm not going to fight that. >> Then there's another scenario where someone wins the lottery and moves to Jamaica. Then we have to get someone to
finish the term. That is where you say it could be someone that's not a town meeting member, but it has to be elected by town meeting member. >> I think we might be overengineering this. I think that if there is a vacancy,
um I think I think that the town clerk has the abilities to do the administration of the of the getting the town meeting together and so on and so forth that they you do all the hard work. Now, um that town meeting, you fill the spot,
but you do it once for the remainder of that term till the next general election. In the event that you have a special town meeting about zoning, are you going to go through this all again and elect someone else? >> But if someone just wants to step away for part of town meeting or
>> No, no, that's that's that's a separate thing. We're saying if there's a vacancy, if there's a form vacancy, stepping away for personal conflict or whatever the reason is, that's probably what Peter did is, you know, you might have had business before the town and said, "I don't want to be a participant in that." your vote.
If it is a vacancy, I'm recommending that town meeting go ahead and vote at the next town meeting. Who will be the town moderator and for that meeting and subsequent meetings until the next election? And if you wanted to make it from the pool of town meeting members,
I'm fine. I I'll live with that. >> So, I assume we don't have a section that covers vacancies. >> We do for select board. We don't for town moderator >> and what is it for selectman? >> We decide amongst ourselves and the same thing with the school committee. >> Correct.
>> They decide among themselves. >> So now >> so town meeting would decide among themselves. There you go. Thank you. You answered it. >> I'm fine with that. >> Okay. Good. >> I just think we all agree this just needs more clarity. Distinction is probably a better word.
>> One more thing. In the current practice the the general public votes for town moderator >> but >> they've already discussed that let's go to town meeting. So does that mean that we are not currently following what the
act says? >> Yep. >> Yep. >> So the rewrite will be Tom town moderators elected a general election. >> So we build at town meeting by town meeting members from amongst town meeting members. Okay.
>> And then the discussion then is how long do they serve? >> I wonder what year that's done. >> I don't go back that far. >> We good, Dan? Section six. Garner Mike. >> Yep. Section six is going to be redone. Yep.
>> All right, let's move on to section seven. Section addresses filling vacancies and town meeting member positions. It prescribes the process. The changes are grammatical except that a vacancy cannot be filled by an atlarge member. The changes are summarized on
page nine of the chart and pages 8 to 10 of the red line document. Let's take a look at that. I've got no changes to section seven at all. >> Agree with all of it. >> Dan, >> fine. >> Mike, >> no.
B. >> Uh, no. No change. This just little typo there. Vacancy. Yeah, we'll get all those. >> All right. So, no changes to section seven. >> So, all recommendations. >> All right. And then section eight. The recommended changes in this section are
grammatical. They are summarized on page nine of the chart and pages 10 through 11 of the red line document. Let's take section eight. Uh I didn't this this might seem like minute but I've had situations where
this was a problem. Um we may want to add the Eastern specific time on the times. I don't know if like throughout the document it says 10:00 a.m. >> But 10:00 a.m. here might be like the
time zone just for clarity. I'll ask >> um 8:00 p.m. Unless there's some legal reasons why it will be a problem, I'll recommend that we clarify
>> any changes. >> I I do, but I want to hear other people's thoughts first. I keep dominating this discussion. >> Oh, no. That's >> Oh, um so in section 8, there's a couple of things. One earlier I asked town council about the uh adherence or the
relationship to state law. MGL section 43A has similar language but it says 7 days. It says it has some other prescriptive dates because I can see I can actually hear probably the deliberation the
committee had is sometimes it says five days and sometimes it says five days excluding Saturdays and Sundays and federal holidays and sometimes even in this se section there's inconsistencies on the number but that the number is different than the state law. So that's
one thing. um you know it's federal holidays um or business five days or do you say five business days because if this passes on a Tuesday and you want to go for a recall you've only got three days to get the number of signatures to
submit it by Friday. You lose those days. I'm just saying I think we would ask town council to help with a consistent language that considers holidays, weekends, so on and so forth in this section. Um
uh it um and then the special election um should be I think we need to add a section that says the special election should be held within 30 days or 60 days whatever number I think works but we have laws uh the town clerk has to do a ton of work.
We got to get ballots printed. We have to put public notices out. We have to have depending on the election, we have to have the same um process of select board meets, talks about it, public hearings, income meets, talks about at public hearings
without providing some sort of number. Can someone say you didn't do it fast enough? I wanted I I petitioned for a recall for a reason. You didn't do it fast enough. Um, do we need to set some sort of time boundaries that work with
the legalities of running a town meeting? A special election. >> Special election. Okay. >> Special election. >> Okay. That's what I thought you started with. >> Yep. Um, and then at the very end of that, if there is a special election that's asked
for and all the check boxes match, I actually have a question for the town clerk, which is to say, when you submit the votes of town meeting, do you have to wait till all of these are cleared or can you say articles 1 through 25 passed
or didn't pass, whatever? I'm sending them on to the AG. We're holding this one in obeyance until we resolve our special election. Can you carve out and not submit something or do you have to submit the entire warrant as a whole? >> Off the top of my head, I would say you
could submit some of them and not all of them. >> Great. That's what I'm hoping. >> As far as I know. >> Okay. >> To the best of my knowledge >> because that's what I would want. If someone calls for a special if if 24 of the 25 warrants passed,
>> let them move through the process. let them go to the AG and follow that timeline. And if we have one for a special election, it's the one that's held off. I get it. And it's not submitted until after the special election determines whether it should or not. >> That makes sense.
>> Okay. So, if I could ask through you, the town manager, town town council, to kind of make common language regarding the number of days. >> Yep. and to consider if there should be uh a timestamp on the special election
and whether we should just conf confirm that we can submit everything but the articles under special election so that the work of the town can move forward. >> Thanks. >> I'm glad the meetings are recorded. >> I pity you having to go back. We got a
lot of work. Anybody else? >> May I Madam Chair, could I just get clarification what you mean by common language because >> that the language >> I think it's I well just to specifically address um five days exclusive of
Saturday, Sunday and holidays. To me that's clear. Is that what you're saying? It's not clear. >> No, it is clear but later it just says five days. >> Okay. >> So it sometimes it has five days parenthesis. Sometimes it just has five days. Usually in most state regulations
it says five business days. It's b for I do a lot of litigation and that's always key. Is it business days or calendar days? So that's >> so if you can find a common term that remains common throughout that's the intent because in section 43A section 10
says describes if within seven days a petition signed by no less than. >> So they they said seven days. I I have no desire to words with what you say as long as it's consistent with state law and consistent within the language here.
>> Yep. Got it. Thank you. >> So, it's yes in general, but work on it. >> Yeah. >> Thanks. >> And I'm sorry I I know I'm being nitpicky, but this is a document that may live for 30 more years. >> 20. >> 20 years. 20. You're right. 20. It's
going to be 20. If I may, on section 8, last sentence reads, if such petition is not filed with within said period of 5 days, is that language that needs to be cleared up. >> We'll catch all those. >> Okay. Thank you. Well,
>> hopefully. >> Yeah. Catching all the Yeah. Right. There's an example pointed out so you're sure to catch it. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. >> Anybody else? Okay, we'll go on to section nine.
Section nine, the section relates to the finance committee and the recommendations are grammatical. They are summarized on page 10 of the chart and pages 11 through 12 of the red line document. >> The only recommendation I had is this was the original language of 1930
because you can see that it is if this passes do this for the first time. Can we remove a lot of that first time language to clarify because it's no longer necessary. The the first portion of this is when it's voted in the town
moderator will elect will appoint finance committee three people for one year, three people for two year, three people for three year. That's no longer a necessary statement because we've already passed that time frame. Um is there an opportunity to do what the the
>> We thought we did. >> Oh, okay. We thought we did remove the references the first time. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Dan. >> Nope. It's it's fine. >> I um I had a thought. >> Yeah.
>> Is it uh possible to have one of the FinCom seats voted in by the public? >> The this committee did not review the finance committee. and not bring any recommendations to us. >> Okay.
>> So, this isn't a good time to to speak at that. >> I'm not I'm not leading. Go. It's up to the chair. >> Yeah. No, you can. What What are you thinking, Mike? >> Well, just to give the the voters a little um
little, you know, grab on that, >> you know, couple with this direction. I would argue if you're going to elect, elect three. or more. >> I mean, the whole thing with the finance committee could be looked at and discussed,
>> but it it wasn't and I don't think that um do we want to go down that road and create new a new document. >> I just Yeah, I think it's I think it's a good idea just to it's people have more say, I guess, you
know. to why we don't. >> Yes. Yes. >> No, not at all. Thank you. Um, we we tossed the idea around in our committee about FINCOM and and perhaps um you were
the person that planted the idea about um about the possibility or the idea of having at least some members or member of the finance committee be elected. and and we talked about that, you know,
deeply and concluded that that we didn't believe it was a good idea for the town, that it overly politicizes or potentially could overly politicize the role of the finance committee, which is um to review every warrant article, of
course, before it goes before town meeting, but also uh in a very specific way to review every line of every budget. budget item uh every department budget in the town budget. Um and our concern is that
elected finance committee members could uh feel a certain pressure or obligation to to deal with a particular item in a particular department budget that doesn't really comport with what an overall non uh politicized process would
be. So our recommendation was against electing um finance committee members but again that's our recommendation to you for your consideration but we did discuss and and um analyze that issue and that was the conclusion we came to.
I think you also you also deliberated or discussed electing like ZBA members or other and I think that and I absolutely support the fact that we shouldn't they they they uh and I I I wouldn't be as supportive
of of electing x number of fincom members. I think we we elect the town moderator who then does tasks. We elect the select board who then appoints people. we and you know and and it does flow down and you may lose a direct touch on certain
things but that's because it's representative um we c we can't all as much as we would like vote on every single issue as a citizen so I I wouldn't be supportive of that I think it should stay the way it is my
thought and uh the language on that section if we remove the first annual town meeting held uh which was the first time the fincom was created. Do we need 3 years, 2 years
and one year expiration? The reading that seems pretty confusing >> uh because the 321 pertains to that first time that the fincome was created. So if you want
to leave it there, we should also specify that this is based on that first time. If we remove the first time, then we may want to remove that language as well. >> That that that may well be there might be a more artful way to state it. But
one thing to preserve is that >> um three members the term of three people expires each year. >> Exactly. There's probably a way to say that >> that's better than this way, but I want
we were trying to preserve that concept. >> So to you, Madame Chair, uh to the T maybe we can finagle that language to reflect the fact that there's 3 to one >> but um make it a little more clear
>> and I think it later does talk about a term should not exceed three years. It's on a rotating basis. >> Yes. I just that's the same thing I was saying is first time language. Can we strike that? >> Dan, do you have any >> Yeah, that No, that's fine. >> Okay. Um I kind of like Mike's idea too
about the election, but you know, for the f >> Well, I guess I I thought if you did one seat, it wouldn't politicize it too much. It wouldn't have control. >> I don't see what it accomplishes. >> But I actually think it politicizes it.
Well, it does exactly if it's one to nine >> uh a political desire. >> No, it's more I think the comment that um it might make a member vote
differently if they weren't elected. The potential of >> Right. >> Yeah. I understand >> the perception. >> It's like a judgeship. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I understand. Yeah. >> When you Yeah. When you deliver it that way. Yeah, >> another concept wrapped into this idea
is that if the moderator is appointing all the members of the finance committee, the moderator can make sure the committee is balanced in whatever way the moderator feels is best. So for instance, there could be u a couple of accountants, maybe a
couple of attorneys, maybe a couple of uh tax related people. I mean by being able to select the members of the finance committee. The moderator can balance the um the backgrounds, the um u
the credentials, the skills, the knowledge of the people on there because no one person can know everything that's needed to be a finance committee member. The moderator can mix it up as he or she feels uh best. That's another reason for
it for the appointment. Are we good? >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Okay. >> Then chairman, I'm taking a quick break. >> Sure. Okay. We're gonna Let's uh Everybody take >> what? Three minute break. >> Let me set the
You ready? >> Okay. Thank you. Uh we're back from our threem minute break. Uh let now we will go to section 10 and 11. The only recommended changes are grammatical. Is there any discussion about this gardener?
>> Nope. Nothing. >> Dan on 10. No. Um >> 10 and 11. >> I think I'm good. >> D. >> No. >> Mike. >> No. >> Okay. So, we'll move on.
Section 12. This section addresses the election of certain bodies, the recommended changes prescribed training and responsibility of town meeting members. The changes are summarized on pages 10 through 11 on the chart and pages 134 of the red line document.
some quick questions on on section 12, page 13. Um 10 o'clock, no later than 10 o'clock. And I'm not going to die on this either, but why aren't we changing it to something more reflective of what we actually do? We open at 7.
May could I ask the town clerk? >> Yes, madam. >> That's language in there just to give you the option. >> Okay. We tend we we open all our polls at 7 a.m. Not that we have to win a local election, but we always to keep it consistent.
>> Yeah. I would I would really not want to ever open at 10 because so many people vote forward. >> They do. Right. >> Okay. Great. >> Anybody else? Dan. >> No. >> D. >> Mike. >> No. >> Oh, one other thing in that section. I I
was talking about the time. Um on page 14. Um, again, I think the added text is sound and solid practice. We should make part of the ask the town manager to have the town clerk do it. Is this
prescriptive to running town meeting? Um, no. Tommy members are encouraged to attend FinCom. Great sound practice. We always would want that. But is that something we want in
this document? >> You want to do you want to madam clerk? >> Oh, please. >> Thank you. the moderator does hold um information session after every um election for town meeting members prior to town meeting. So to me this is very similar to the
other category where you you felt that it was good practice but not necessarily needing to be in here. >> That's what that's exactly my point. Yes. >> Are you good? >> I'm fine with that. I I I'd like to hear what the other members say so that you
have consensus whether >> I see no need to change it. >> No need. >> No need to change it. Meaning to add this or that we should keep this language. >> Okay. >> I I think the policies or the procedures
that we have now with the moderator I think is sufficient. Yeah. And it says town meeting members are encouraged to meet with the town. So I I agree, but I I feel that if we don't add it in the act, we really have to
make it like a policy. Y >> like we we have to make it best practice policy. So I'm okay that we don't add it in the act. Um but that we have it as a policy. >> I agree,
>> Madam Chair, if I may. >> Yes. Again, as you've all just noted, we we're again trying to push that idea we have of a of encouraging active uh participation and um thorough
information for town meeting members to understand the rules. So, that's where a lot of this language comes. Um, one thing that currently the the moderator does have a a a session after an election before the next town meeting. It's typically only new town meeting
members are invited and maybe that's sufficient. Um, but we have suggested here that that presentation by the moderator should be available to town meeting members who might not be able to attend. um in my
in my limited recollection um being an old woman is um >> they're always during work hours and I was never able to attend one of those classes because of my work schedule at the time. So, I guess that's
something I'd really like to um advocate for is to have that meeting be something that uh is available um electronically for somebody to be able to view outside of the time frame that the moderator makes a physical presentation. >> Could we add record and replay?
>> Yeah. Well, I think um if I may, Madam Chair, this reminds me of like the safety video that the police chief was talking about the other day like we should we should consider the moderator doing an actual do the presentation as a video that can be played at any time is what I think we're getting at is to meet people's schedules. There is some there
is something to be said about the interaction, the question and answer um which can you know is different but um we can we can certainly look at ways. >> I think that's great. >> Okay. >> B. Yes. >> Okay. Got it. Anything more
>> that for that section I'm all set. >> Okay. Mike, >> I'm good. Yeah. >> Section 13. The recommendations in the section are grammatical. That's a small. >> Oh, good.
>> Do we want And um what do we want to do about section 13? Any changes? I think you voted them all. >> I think we're fine, right? >> Y >> Dan, everybody >> good. >> Okay, D. >> Yeah, >> Mike. >> Nothing. >> I know.
>> Oh, uh, I'm sorry. There was one thing. Are we on 14? >> Not yet. >> Not yet. >> Okay. >> Yeah. 13. >> I'll wait. >> Okay. So, this is a new section 14. This is a new section that prescribes how often the town meeting act shall be reviewed. The recommended changes are on
page 11 of the chart and page 15 of the red line document. Let's take a look at that. Mike, you want to start? Um I just thought that maybe every five years we should review maybe
some kind of maybe it's a little a lighter weight review, but we should have access to do that only because the speed of life just keeps getting faster and faster. Things may change. Go ahead, what do you think?
>> Um, I'm all for the section. Um, however, um, the last line is the one that troubles me. >> Um, >> any such review of this act should be conducted in a manner determined by town meeting members. I think it should be either the select board,
>> select board, >> moderator. This is a policy issue. Um, I would I would I would want the board to think about who they think should set that. And I think town meeting is not the body to set that. As
far as you're concerned about five years, remember this is going to have a this is almost like a home rule petition. We're going to do this. We're going to have to submit it to the legislature. That's going to take some amount of time. >> Take five years to get approved. >> This was done in 19 first in 1930.
Amended in 73 43 years later. amended again in 2025 or working on it 52 years later I'm all for 20 years as being a good target date but given that we aren't the final decision makers the legislature is I wouldn't go any less than 20 years
>> I will agree I will be in favor of this section as well and speaking of the last line I had a question there too uh but the way I understood this line was they saying in a manner had determined by
town meeting like what happened this time which was town meeting voted to ask the town moderator to put a committee together >> they approved the selectman's warrant article >> they did
>> I started here >> okay >> went to Fencom the town meeting they approved it for the moderator to appoint members of the town meeting body to do the review >> okay so as we finagle it will be in a way in a manner
presented by the select board warrant article to town meeting is that how we want it >> determined by the select board could be sufficient but because if a town meeting and they could say we want to go to a general election we wanted to do any
number of things I'm going to have a discussion later about town meeting roles and responsibilities and abilities authorities and I think this would transcend the authority of town meeting on how policy is set, how process is made that may fall under the town
manager act or the select board to the select board's purview. I I all I'm saying is I think that the the people who forward this should be the select board. >> Yes. But if we just leave it as the select board, does that mean we could have decided to form this commission and
not bring it to town meeting and review the act? >> Will that be? The will of the town meeting was that we review the act. >> The methodology of how that review happens is our decision.
>> Okay. Okay. >> I I understand. >> So it could have been a committee of nine or committee 24. It could be a it could be you know whatever. I I think that's determined by us. >> But it still has to make the circle right. We're going to still going to be
approved by Finn and meetings. So >> well that that's what we decided because it'll become a warrant article which >> becoming a warrant article prescribes certain procedure. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> If if I may um explain my the committee's disagreement with that concept is that this is the town meeting
act and town meeting members should be the ones that determine first to to to review it sooner than 20 years if they feel appropriate and town meeting should be voting on doing it. Now, what you were just describing is either the
moderator or the select board bringing a warrant article to have it done, but town meeting should be the one voting on whether or not there should be a review. >> It should be it should be subject to the vote and approval of the of the uh legislative body to review the act. So,
that's why that's why that language is here. And you'll see the same language is in the >> is in the town uh manager act as well. Both this phrase appears in both. But what this and I think I I get your intent fully understand it as you describe it in that context. But if I'm
reading this literally says any such review of this act shall be conducted in a manner determined by town meeting. >> Exactly. >> If if it were to say town meeting votes to move this forward or town meeting votes to have a review. Great. Understand they should be they I
all for that. Just like it happened last time they made a vote to say Talon has to review it. the methodology of review and how it gets then changes get then determined should be the process steps that >> I I disagree. I think the
representatives elected by the people of the town should be the ones that are determining how it's going to go forward. So that's the position that we're coming from as a committee and I didn't want it to pass as if it was just kind of a a minor subject. It's something that we
feel is important to have in here. A point of information, madame chair. >> Yes. >> Um once we agree on the language, how do we move this forwards? Do we move it forward as a separate warrant article for the 20 years because it's being
added to the town manager act or we're just encompassing it within the whole document? >> If I if I may, madam. Yes, chair. Um, so that's the one of that's one of the recommendations we're going to come back to you with when we um when town council has a chance to play with all of these
is say and that'll be the board's decision. Are you going to move the whole document including the changes forward as one article? Are there going to be are you going to take out certain pieces like that that are new to be discussed separately at town meeting? Um, >> so I'm jumping ahead.
>> Yeah, you're jumping ahead. But that's okay. That's that's one of the things. And um while I while I have the mic, may I suggest or just put out there for you guys to think about um ver some sort of verbiage like in a manner as to be determined by the select
board is subject to approval of town meeting or something. >> Well, if if you say in a manner or a method, >> yeah, >> to be determined by the select board, do we have to go back to town meeting for them to approve the fact that we did this process that we set up a committee that they met certain times that we're
putting a photo as a warrant article? That kind of puts the c it kind of then adds a delay mechanism in there. I think it's just the select board decide how this gets done. When committees are formed, when we're there asked for committees, we should do a committee. >> Yeah.
>> How we you we were asked at town meeting to form a committee about the airport. The methodology of that committee, the count, the number, the process that was on given to you, not town meeting decided that. So I think similar vein
town meeting has absolutely every right to say we want you to review it in year seven things which the world has changed I want to review in year >> you're almost okay >> and I'm saying yes we then have to embrace their will and then the methodology in which we put it forward
we'll review it we'll come back with recommendations and how we get it forward back to them is our methodology >> I think you get where you're where you're going Okay, another point of So if we are 20 years from now,
it's time to review this act. What happens? We we don't need a vote anymore because we already said this has to be review. We're 20 years from now. What What happens? Do we
>> Well, I I think what happens is exactly what happened this time. It doesn't have to be at 20 years. You don't have to wait 20 years. Is it? >> No. Let's assume we wait 20 years and then and if if it's 20 years from now based on this we don't need to go back to town meeting to ask for a review.
It's built into the act. Now if we want to do it in 5 years then we have to go back. But if we wait the 20 years the discussion is just how do we review it? And that's why you're saying the
select board has to decide what we do in 20 years. But Sally is saying the town meeting has to decide what we do in 20 years. Is is that am I getting it? >> So my question is when does 20 years
start from today >> or when the legislature approves it some two years from now? And I think the action should say may be reviewed not shall be. >> Right. I think we we need to open the
for the town meeting the ability to ask for this at any point in time. >> Right. Maybe maybe reviewed within 20 years or something >> within. Yeah. Within. Kate, what about the legality of that? Like >> when does it start? >> It's not really a legal question. It's
just a policy question of how you want to handle it. And as far as when it starts, I mean, you could choose from the vote of this the vote of the selectmen on this round or you could make it the vote of the legislature >> or the vote of the town meeting when they adopt it. >> Yeah, that would end. Yeah, it it's
legal however you do it as long as you know whenever it is reviewed again, it's done under proper procedures like it's being done this time. >> But I I'm I'm against the word sha here may within 20 years >> may be conducted. Yeah.
Is that the consensus? >> Yeah, I agree with that. You think so? >> But but then if we do May, then that triggers another problem. That's not automatic. So that means that we're going back to it's not just about how we
review it. It's about 20 years from now, do we even review it at all? So processwide, we will have to >> whoever's here in 20 years will make that decision. We're giving them the opportunity. >> I and I think the intent is and get and if I don't get the intent right, I think
the intent is to put it in the hands of town meeting to decide when they we have the review it they right now there is nothing that says they can compel us to do this. So by putting it in their hands and saying yes in seven years the world has changed
enough that we think we should review this again. Anybody in town meeting can do a citizens petition. anybody citizen can do this petition. If town meeting embraces that, it they hand it over to us. I don't think it's incumbent upon us to force a review every 20 years. That's
not what this is saying. >> It's saying give them the option and let them and be happy for them to take it. >> And if they do take the option, we have to respond. >> And I think the reason for this to begin with is because we waited so long to review it. >> Yes.
>> That we should have done it sooner. Right. Someone put our feet to the fire. For many years, we we said kick the can and someone said, "Let's stop kicking the can. >> The last time it was reviewed was 50 years ago." >> Yeah.
>> Right. So long. >> Yeah. >> That's the last time it was amended. It was amended in 73. I'm sure they reviewed it a couple years ahead. >> Yeah, they did in the 90s. >> No, it was reviewed in 1973. >> Everything in the town manager act Oh, thank you.
>> Yep. All right. Are we good? >> Y think. >> All right. >> Almost there. Team >> section 14, not the new one. This is the the additional one. The section prescribes the process for changing the
town meeting act. The recommended changes are procedural. The changes can be found on page 11 and 12 of the chart and pages 15 and 16 of the red line version. New It would be new section 15. >> Yep.
>> Because you added 14. >> So now 14 typo. >> That was a typo. Yep. >> So typo in your >> Y. So let's go to section 15, >> which was struck entirely, and I'm fine with that.
>> Yep. >> Okay. Dan. >> Yep. Fine. >> I feel like you're rushing me through it. >> I am tired. I got to go watch that baby tomorrow. >> Yeah. >> So, >> I do have some other stuff to talk.
>> Sure. >> So, this having gone through this document, I think you know the consensus that we have, but I I am going to um work with town council, work with town uh with the with the town manager. Um, I did have some questions that I
sent to town council and and and and uh kind of I didn't want to do a gacha, so I wanted to at least let her know they were coming. Um, I'm asking for a statement about the
authority of town meeting votes. We know that is it is it can be a short thing but for example town meeting cannot vote to hire a person. They can't vote to fire a person. They can't vote to
um exceed the town manager act as provided and we've had that attempt at times. I would like a declaration and and when we talk about policy and what do we notify new members about what it is we're allowed to vote and what we're not
allowed to vote. Um which then will lead to my second subject but it's there are times that things come up that especially in citizens petitions that they are determined to be illegal with respect to the town manager act or the
town meeting act. town meeting uh town meeting can't supersede the town manager act. It can't just do away with some other legislative thing or do away with a zoning bylaw that's already been passed. So I'm looking for kind of at some point
>> the the framework of what is allowed and what isn't and it's in the context of citizens petitions. I'm going to pursue the conversation we had earlier about what supersedes or what and I might not be using the right legal terms but at what point you can
transcend state law and what point you can't. Um I am of the feeling that citizens petitions are absolutely imperative. I am not of the opinion that 10 signatures should get you should get
you there. I think that it has to have a higher threshold especially When you're trying to reverse the will of the and vote of a town meeting, that to me is a backdoor recall, there are recall provisions. If you if
citizenry does not agree with the way town meeting voted on something, if a number of town meeting members don't agree, and we've had recall uh uh elections, recall recall special elections. So, right now, um, if you are
want to put a citizen petition on a in a scheduled according to Mass General law, um, if you want to put a citizen petition on the warrant for a regular election, it's 10 signatures. If you want to call for a special election, it's uh 100 or 10%, whichever is less.
Um, uh, I'm sorry, on a special town meeting. And if you want to call for a special election, it's 200 signatures or 20%, whichever is less. If you're trying to recall the vote of a town meeting, I think that you need to
have a higher threshold, a higher standard. I can get 10 signatures for almost any subject I might want in 10 minutes. And I think that that's not representative of
um of I don't want to say majority, but some number of people. So number one, I'm going to and I'd like and I say this because I want feedback. I want to hear from people and say, "Yeah, pursue it or not." I want to hear if the the board has any appetite towards this or not because if not, I won't I've got plenty
more research to do on other things. The other is I'd like that I'd like to suggest that a citizen's petition which is a needs to be written with the same legal rigor as any of our other warrant
articles should have the opportunity of review at some point by town by our town council not for not for per not for intent just for construct. Does it meet legal standards? Can can if this was put before the AG, would the AG sign it?
Because legally it's binding. It's actionable. It's it it has the force of law. It has whatever it needs to do to say that doesn't work or that does work. I would like that review to become part of the analysis.
We'll build it into the process. So if the if you uh if the warrant closes on date X 10 business days before that you submit it and that legal council looks at that and says this is actionable. In our last town meeting we had three
citizens petitions of very similar nature come before us. The first one was deemed dead on arrival. It was not legally actionable. You could not have done what that person asked. Should it have gone to town meeting? Should it have yet? We heard the
petitioner speak for an considerable amount of time about something we already knew was done and over with. And even if we voted on it, even if for some reason town time meeting said yes, forward this, it had already been determined to be not actionable. Um or
similarly, is it outside the scope of town meeting to do that? If a right now I could do a citizens petition that says um uh select select select a members can retire and get 100 you know all this benefits.
I don't have the legal authority to do that. I can't compel spending money that way. I can't do things. So I would like a a review of citizens. I'd like to up the threshold and I'd like a review to make sure it's legally binding and that
it does that it falls within the framework or authority of town meeting to do that. We can't we've tried to say we want this other community to do this thing. We don't have that authority. We don't can't compel other people to do
certain things. Um, and so I'm looking for guidelines on what the what the guard rails are. And I'd like to hear from people about a manner in which we productively use citizens petitions
in a way that if we take this action, we know it will that it doesn't fly in the face of the law. Um, so, um, I say that now because I'm going to I'm going to continue to research it, but I'd like to know what is what is is is what would be the will of the board in that manner?
Because if I >> I'm not sitting here telling citizens what petitions they can present to us or town meeting. That's their business. They collect the signatures >> and and my I I would agree with that. Um, I mean I don't know if and I'm not a
lawyer, but I don't know if there's a way to prevent every single scenario from I mean now we talk about citizen petitions or maybe having the authority to fire someone from town meeting. That's one example. But I don't know if
there's a way to put in this act every single scenario that will come up and that will be illegal and that we can prevent that from happening. Like I I think if we go that route, yeah, we might have two or three examples now,
but next week we might have five more examples. I think that is a case by case basis. And as it is now, if town meeting has something that goes to it that cannot be done or that's illegal, it's
going to be acted upon accordingly. So, I don't know if having something preemptively to prevent that from happening is even possible. Um, >> tonight we heard many recommendations by
town council that something is not actionable. Exactly. >> We followed up with that. >> Exactly. >> It wasn't a scenario. It was law says you can't do that. >> Exactly. And that would be the case. That would be the case for everything else that comes up in the future cuz if
we say 50 signatures and now we end up being a population of 40,000. Do we say we're now going to go to 60 signatures? So I mean >> we can build that >> if citizen wants to bring up something. I mean we acted upon people one request.
Sometimes it's only one citizen that brings up an issue and that makes us take some actions. So if someone can have 10 if it's illegal that's a different issue. But as long as it any resident
who brings up an issue should we should take it into account and act upon accordingly. >> Let's have Kate. >> Yes. Madam Chair, through you to the previous speakers. >> Yes. >> Chapter 39, section 10 governs petition warrant articles. You have to put them on the warrant
>> without making any changes whatsoever unless you can get the petitioners to all agree to make changes. You So that's one of the statutes that you can't board of selectman cannot make changes to how many people have to sign it. However, in all the municipalities that I've
represented over my several decades of doing municipal law, um oftentimes the selectman will send me a warrant article that's been petitioned just to say, "Is this legal at all?" And I don't appine on them unless I'm asked to. Um a lot of times they don't ask me to. They just
let the petitioner speak. And if they don't have an attorney and they didn't do it right, it fails. um or if it passes by some strange you know even though it's not done legally the attorney general has to approve all by all um warrant articles that are passed so it won't get past the AG but a lot of
times select boards want me to look at it just to save the time so that this the moderator can ask me at town meeting is this legal and I can stand up and say no it's not unless they and and I take my direction from you so if you want me to say how it can be legal I can do that if you want me to just say no it's not
legal I can do that just to help with the efficiency at town meeting that we're not talking about something that can't happen anyway. Well, that's the point. Yeah, that's the point I'm trying to make is if something is determined to be, if we do ask you and it's determined, no, you can't you MGL law
XYZ says no, you can't do this, do we then have to entertain a full debate on the subject? uh you know and that's and and that's that it's exactly that point that I'm trying to make is that that whether it's
legal as far as national law or it's legal as far as in with respect to the town meeting act or town manager act or what other act >> I don't think we have to entertain a full debate I mean we could glance on it and move on but I don't know if we can
preemptively prevent that from happening >> well if I may madam chair no I'm suggest you have to put it on the warrant. You can't stop the debate. >> Exactly. You're correct. You have to put it on. >> But it can be done in a number of different ways. And again, it's at your
direction and I would work with the town manager. If you want me to review a Warren article for whatever reason that is petitioned and I look at it and I see that it's not written properly but it needs this, this, and this and then it might be okay, then the town manager
might want to talk to the petitioners. If they all agree to make the changes and they all sign it again, then they can put a legal article on the warrant. Um, oftentimes towns don't want to spend their legal budget helping the petitioners and want the petitioners,
you know, get your own attorney and figure out how to do it correctly. >> But you can't, unfortunately, you can't not put it on the warrant and you can't change it without all the petitioners agreeing. And if it's on the warrant, there can be debate at town meeting. But again, that's when oftentimes I'll be
asked by the moderator because maybe the select board or the town manager told the moderator, ask town council if it's legal. I stand up. I say no, it's not and here's why. And then usually it somebody t makes a quick motion to defeat it or you know it's it's voted
without much further debate and then >> and that's what I so I want to be clear. I never want to stop a citizen from filing a petition. Everything that comes to us has to get on the warrant with or without our recommendation. My statement was I would like a review of those and have a
statement or a finding that just like you did here uh in these other documents. It's, you know, it's allowed or it's not allowed by master law X, Y, and Z. And then we can use that as a uh as a methodology to try to be efficient
in our in our deliberations. And if you all vote to do that, I'm happy to review them. >> Okay. But you also mentioned something else that I had another question on. I go out, I get 10 signatures that say I'm going to outlaw ferrets. We don't like ferrets in this town. I'm going to
outlaw ferrets. If I and 10 people signed it, they're notorized. The, you know, they're all set. We're moving forward. If I get on time meeting Florida, do I have the ability to amend that and say not just ferrets, snakes, too? Because
the 10 people who signed it to put it there may have different feelings about snakes. >> That's a scope of the article question and it's up to the moderator. But if the moderator asked me, I would say that's not within the scope of the article because it was ferrets, not whatever else you just said, snakes or something.
>> Yeah. No, but again, it's it's a moderator's call, but it's got to be within the scope of the article. Somebody can't just amend something to make it completely different. >> Okay, that was a Thank you. Glad for that clarity, too. Um, >> okay. All right.
>> So, so to I I started out by asking the board. I agree. I Okay, I'm hearing no 10 is still the threshold fine and I've never suggested not putting on the warrant, but would we want to have a review of citizens petitions by legal counsel
not to work it, not to fix it, not to change the intent in any manner, but to make sure that it can be signed legally or do we have to ask from individually? I think is if you're going to do a review, I think then you have to give
the reasons to the petitioner. >> Just like here in this document, it said not recommended. MGL XYZ says no. >> I think that's and then and then they can decide what they're going to do if they're going to revise it, they're going to reapply it, whatever it is. >> Yeah.
>> I'm just looking for a simple review that says agree, actionable or not actionable. And the reason why >> now are you looking for that to be added in the act that we're working on or this is just >> or it could be policy. I'm I'm asking >> policy general after this.
>> Yep. But here but in this act talks about warrants. >> Yes, >> it does talk about you know how to get a warrant on the you know in front of people. So, if we decide we want to bake in the fact that we would ask for legal review on a warrant and build back some time
for for the legal town council to do that work. It may here or it may be a policy. >> I don't think that I mean I wouldn't support adding it to the act. I think uh >> okay >> and I mean I think we get that somehow
anyway like I think town council could be available to us anytime we have any legal questions now if you want to add the responsibility of town council to now start to fix people petitions >> I think we going in
>> not fix but if you're going to file a petition >> it's on me to file >> if I'm if you're going to file a petition should we offer for the ability for town legal counsel to look at that your petition about ferrets and say it's
actionable or not so that you have time to modify it as opposed to after the fact when you submitted it you submitted it and we ask is it actionable when you I want them to get I've always said to some of these people to some of the people who are commonly petitioning it
the town council will look at that for actionability not for content, not for purpose. Your purpose could be whatever it is. It's just can this pass legal muster. >> So, if I may, we've had many petitions
come before town meeting. The moderator is turned to the attorney. The attorney says, "No, madam moderator, this is not legal." End of story. That's happened. That's >> only if we ask specifically. >> No citizen petition does not get asked is this is legal.
What I'm trying to offer is I'm trying to >> and I don't think we should be directing people not to give us citizens petitions. >> I didn't say that, Dan. You saying, you know, but you are because order. >> You don't have to put words in my mouth. I'm clear on what I'm saying. I want
every citizen's petition to come forward. I want them to pass. So, if I want them to pass, I want to give that citizen the opportunity to know before the warrant closes that this is actionable. I don't think there's been cases where the manager hasn't advised
somebody given a petition what direction to go in because of the legality. >> I don't think I think that >> maybe it just has to be clarified. >> Well, because then you can give the petitioner a fight and chance if they want to if
they want to be more specific or legal. Uh >> well, a lot of times the petitioners, they don't get legal advice and they they they come forth and that's that's that's not on us. >> Here's a perfect example. We had a petitioner come before us to stop
smoking on public sidewalks. That's something I could embrace. But because the way they wrote it, it was so ambiguous and it didn't have the structure that allowed it to be um uh allowed it to be actionable, legally actionable. If we had said to that
petitioner, "We'll review this. Can't do it because of this Mass General law or because it's too vague. Um, we're not telling you how to rewrite it. We're telling you it won't pass the AG." It gives them the opportunity to refine that that petition and get it passed
instead of waiting until they turn it in, find out a town meeting, it's not legally actionable, and have to wait another year to get back on the docket. I'd rather give them that opportunity. I want them to pass. It's It's the opposite of what you're saying I'm doing. I'm saying I want them to go. I
want them to do it. I want it to pass. I want their intent to be heard, but there's legality surrounding this. So, I want to see I'm I'm having a hard time adding on to our town council the
responsibility to review citizen petitions. I mean if if we got a 100 citizen petitions now the town council >> we don't though t the reality is we get three >> in theory because the we are all in like
I mean we're just speculating here I think as it is now citizens have the possibility to meet with town manager and town staff depending on where what petition they have seek advice seek counsel
um I I don't know if we want to enshrine in our our charter that town council has to review petition before it gets to us. Uh I I I >> or petitioners has the option to have it reviewed.
>> People might even have a petition that they don't really want to pass but they just want to make a point. That's a possibility. >> That's a common thing too and I don't want >> I can't say that. uh but I do think that as it is now there's a possibility for
the petitioners to discuss with the respective departments meet with the town manager have their petition wording go back and forth meet with the town clerk adding that responsibility and then liability too if if town council
says this is what you need to do to get your petition in good legal standing and then it turns out that it wasn't leading good legal standing. Now we exposing our town council too. So I think we're just opening a can of worm.
>> Then I then I hear the will of the board. I'm not pursuing it. However, >> I think that that I've never advocated that the town council should fix someone's petition. I've simply said they should render an opinion because you're absolutely right. There are some people here who write some citizens
petitioners who write a petition knowing it will not um pass legal muster because we've because we've talked about it they and I and FinCom talks about it with them as well and they move forward because they want their time on the floor.
So, um, and I think that's wasteful use of town meeting members times and and and, uh, to to to be offered something the petitioner themselves knows cannot be acted upon. >> Okay. What's the >> I'm done with that one.
>> Okay. >> Let's move on to number 10. Town manager report to the board on various items of interest. >> I will keep it short tonight. Um uh so one of the things that uh member Bennett I mean the monthly monthly and
one of the things he asked for and I think it speaks to what uh Mr. Bates was saying earlier um at least on notification wise uh I am going to start including road closures that is that I know of and remind people um during this time. So, but most importantly with that
is make sure you are on um you've gone to our website and signed up for notifications um so that you always get the alert the alerts and you can choose departments and DPWs the one in particular that um releases these. The only one that I had on my quick review today and going forward I'll anytime I
get them I'll just add them to my to my report document. Um but there is the ongoing national grid work which is a lot of what you were addressing earlier. um the ongoing national grid work um that started last October 13th um it's
between 8 and two and it is to reclo relocate the gas man on Beaver Park Road, Lafayette A and Brookside A. Um and it's expected to last 14 weeks. So additional details can always be found on the website. Um and I'll start including that just as another way to
reach the public. um things that are coming up and and I'll wrap these up quick that Danver's fire department is having its annual open house Thursday, October 23rd from 4 to 6 at the fire headquarters. Um this will be my first time, but I'm understanding that it's uh
it offers a lot of interesting and fun things for people to enjoy, including stop, drop, and roll, uh Jaws of Life rescue demonstration. Um that's at 5:15. Um, and things for the kids to do, including Sparky the Fire Dog. Uh, the
police department is hosting their pumpkin painting at this police station that same night, October 23rd, 4 to 6. Could be a public safety day for anyone who's looking for something to do. Um, this is one that I'm really trying to um, reach out to folks on. And town
meeting members will receive um, invite from my office. Resilient Danvers um, is hosting a community summit for to update the community. they've been coming here um staff have been coming here regularly to update the board. Um we feel like it's an important time to touch base
with the public on um on moving that continuing to move that document and the planning the plans inside that forward. So the community is invited to come November 5th uh 1 to 2:30 at the Larkin
and on the website there's a place to RSVP. Um and this is uh one of I think speaks to kind of the heart of some of the work that the review committee did which is engaging town meeting members earlier um when we're talking about subjects so that they have a they have a full knowledge base when they get to
town meeting to vote. And the last one is the um zero waste recycling weekend October 20 that's this weekend October 25th and October 26 9 to1 at the high school. >> Thank you. Thank you town manager. The
board will consider consent calendar items as they appear below. >> Motion to approve. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I opposed. Okay. Uh correspondent select board new business previous new business updates and select board closing
comments. Dan, do you uh No, let's start with Mike. Mike, you go start. >> Um I just wanted to ask the town manager if there was any movement on the the Beverly Danverse uh airport commission. uh that we were looking to get.
>> Yeah, I updated this board I think probably last month um that we are the Aaron Henry is working on the scope of that to reflect what the resolution looked like. Um we specifically are waiting to uh appoint post the election in Beverly so we have a sense of who
what we're dealing with for a mayor there and kick off work at the start of the new year. >> Okay. Is is this is this something where the public can uh fill out the application for that committee or >> I don't think that we so you did not you
did not determine that per se and I think um it's likely going to be the town manager as the appointing authority. The um moderator did not express interest in that. Um so I would be open to yes um talent pool forms and I believe there'll be some members of the select board.
>> Okay. All right. Thank you. Ghana >> um correspondents. I did want to note that in my deliberation, I did get a uh email from uh Mark Hannon and from Annette Collins expressing their viewpoints on the town management and
town meeting act and consider those thankful thank for the thanks for the email. And then I think the only other emails I got were marketing stuff that comes to us. Um so I'm all set. Uh no closing comments. Um, thank you. >> Thank you. Uh, Dave,
>> uh, nothing. Thank you. >> Uh, Dan, >> thank you. Uh, I received the, uh, two emails, one pro, one con on the, uh, clickers, if you will, for town meeting. Um, Lauren said there's a survey. I'd be
interested to see the survey because I've had maybe 12 town meeting members come up to me unsolicited saying they're not interested. in the clickers and making any changes. So, her survey seems to suggest
something different unless everybody that was negative has approached me, which I don't believe. >> And I think context is important. I've asked another town meeting member if they if they got it and could they forward it to me because how the phrasing of a survey is
>> right. Yeah. >> Extremely important. >> It's we're only getting one side of that particular piece. So, I don't know if we She said she had 73 pages. >> Yeah, clerk has it and she can distribute some copies to all this. >> Yeah, just I don't know that I need it all, but
>> No, thank you. Maybe maybe someday next week I'll come and peruse it. Thank you. >> Um the only other thing I have, if you see a vet, please say thank you to the vet and remember Veterans Day is the 11th of November at the high school. Right.
>> That's right. And that reminds me to say, yep, the Veterans Day ceremony November 11th um at the Davis High School auditorium. All people are welcome. Also, there's an open house for Davis High School um Wednesday, November 19th at 6 p.m. And I
want to welcome my granddaughter, Holly Quinn, that was born. I want to thank Dan for running the meeting and all the support of the members. Uh she was born on October 8th and uh she weighed 7.7 pounds, 20 inches long and she's
adorable and I get to go see her again tomorrow. >> So thank you and I want to thank the committee for all the deliberations. Kate, I want to thank you know thank you very much for being here. Sally I think and everybody here that stayed till about 10 o'clock tonight. See you soon.
>> The meeting's over. >> You adjourn it. >> Adjourn the meeting. >> Adjourn the meeting. >> Okay. >> Okay. The judge.