for the next meeting. I did. Thank you. And you did as well. And Karina, you got a packet for the next meeting. I did. For the next meeting. What? You'll be here for the next meeting. I will. I may not. I'm coming back. Vegas that
afternoon. I will Karine will jump right in the spot. Yep. I might have two. I'm going to be knocking you guys pay pretty soon. Sweet.
All right. Are we good? We probably should get rolling here. Just tap the door. Let them know we're good. There are a lot of things on the docket like six things. Okay. Uh good evening everyone and welcome to the Danver's Zoning Board of
Appeals. We are now in session. Um I would ask if you could please uh turn off or silence any mobile devices so we are not interrupted. Um I'm going to start off by introducing our board. Uh down to my right is Karine Dohy. Our
clerk tonight is Ken Scholes, myself, John Bowerer as the chairman. Um to my left is Ken Jabernon. And um down to my far left is Chris Dembowski. Uh here from our planning department tonight is uh Aaron Morris. Welcome Josh. Josh. Sorry. It's okay. I'm
Aaron Henry is who I was thinking of. I'm sorry. Um I I'll briefly go over our procedure. I think people are pretty familiar with it. Um, our clerk will read the case uh aloud and um I would ask that the applicant go to the microphone and
introduce yourself and uh tell us what it is you'd like to do. At that point, we'll uh hear your presentation, come back to the board for questions. We ask that we're not interrupted and people please do not shout out from your chairs. If you'd like to be heard when the public session opens, please raise
your hand. I'll call upon you and then go to the microphone. identify yourself, your address, and um make your comment to the chair, please. And uh we will uh uh put it out um for question from there. At that point, we'll close public
comment and um we will come back and deliberate as a board here in public. You'll hear that deliberation and again asking that we're not interrupted. So, I think that pretty much covers it. Uh at that point um the applicant would you know know their options based on uh how
the votes are going amongst the board. Uh board members we were all in receipt of minutes for our August 25th meeting. Um is there any further discussion and if not if I could get a motion please. So moved. I got a motion and a second.
Second by Karine. All in favor? I. Any opposed? Thank you. And uh I think I got everything. With that said, uh Mr. Clerk, we'll uh call off our first case. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Our first case is 20 Popes Lane. This is Highway
Corridor Zoned. Uh request for a special permit to allow for a total of five storage containers to be located on site to provide secure storage for materials associated with the contractor's yard in excess of 180 days. the containers to be
uh screened with fencing and the request is made by EDM construction care of Nancy McCann Esquire dock at 25-5111. Good evening. Good evening. Thank you very much. My name is Nancy McCann. I'm here on behalf
of EDM Construction, Inc. With me tonight is Jacqueline McIll, president of EDM Construction. And uh we are requesting a special permit relative to storage containers. uh to be located at an existing contractor's yard at 20
Popes Lane. The property is located in the highway corridor zoning district. Um we have requested five storage containers to be there long term to secure the storage for uh the EDM construction business itself. This site
at 20 Popes Lane has long been a contractor's yard probably for close to 50 years. uh previously uh the Manter construction company. Some of you uh may have known Warren Manter over the years and EDM purchased the property last year
for its construction company which was uh begun in 1999. The business uh involves structural steel and metal uh subcontracting for large projects, bridge work uh and the like and has a lot of uh large
equipment, large materials, valuable materials that need to be secured and need to have a an appropriate place to be stored. um not dissimilar to the large type of construction that Manter did, although uh we have now uh steel
and other types of materials that he did not regularly have on site. Um during the course of the prior uh contractor's yard, there have been storage containers on this site, two of them probably in excess of 25, 30 years.
Uh so there are two existing storage containers that have been on this site for for quite a long time prior to the zoning uh bylaw addressing storage containers. Um so I would suggest to you that those are
those are grandfathered. However, we've uh in encompassed all of the storage containers for the site in this application. So we are requesting five storage containers. There are currently two on site which are the grandfathered uh containers and two that um EDM
purchased from uh an abuing site uh when they acquired the property not realizing they needed to come for the uh for the special permit for these containers. So, we're requesting uh the special permit for a total of five containers um
long-term, meaning those would be permanent containers to meet the needs of this business. We anticipate that four of the containers would be on site for greater than 180 days through the throughout the year and I would uh suggest to you that those would be
permanent storage containers on the site. the fifth storage container uh will come and go and be located on project sites. Uh so that probably would not be on site 180 consecutive days uh during any particular year.
Um, as you can see on the uh plan that's up, we're proposing four of the storage containers on the north side of the site um behind a fence that is a slatted
fence chain link so that it will uh you won't be able to see through it. Um, we're proposing a high fence in order to um to shield those those containers and the plan does show you the uh the perimeter of that fencing and the area
of the fencing which would go around uh and completely screen the uh containers from Pope's Lane. The uh fifth container you see on plan left on the southerntherly side of the property that
um is also behind slatted fencing. As you know the highway corridor zone permits a contractor's yard um by special permit in this zoning district. Uh as again contractor's yard has been
on this site for for many many years. Um and a contractor's yard by definition allows outdoor storage, outdoor storage of heavy equipment, heavy materials, all sorts of supplies that might be
needed in association with um a contractor's business. So equipment, materials, all of that can be outside. Doesn't have to be enclosed, doesn't have to be screened. It's just permitted as part of a contractor's yard. That is, in fact, the definition of a
contractor's yard. Um, this can lead to unsightly storage as uh as we've seen in some some locations for contractor's yards. And what uh we think that this will do for this particular site is
organize the site, provide uh a little bit of neatness because some of the stuff that would be uh permitted to be stored outside will be stored permanently inside. that uh provides again some some order, some neatness to the site, but also provides the
security. The type of um equipment and materials and the steel that's that would be stored here u is subject to theft. And so we want to prevent that from happening. And we do that in two ways. with the storage containers themselves and then with the fencing
that provides the screening as well as additional uh protection from from any type of theft. Um, we are seeking a permanent storage
uh of containers on this site and uh in 2021 I'll remind the board that this board granted another applicant also located in the highway corridor zone uh but for a retail wholesale use in fact
not for a contractor's yard uh permission to have four storage containers on that site permanently. Okay. So, it's not a a this is not a case of first impression for this board. The board did grant that special permit
to allow for storage containers at that site in the highway quarter zone, a much more visible site um behind uh behind a slided chain link fence. um you required in that case that that applicant come
back 18 months after uh which the applicant did and uh to my knowledge anyway there were no issues with that uh with those storage containers. Um, the
applicant storage containers meet all of the uh setback requirements and other I'll call them design type of requirements under section nine of the zoning bylaw for storage containers. Um, they meet the setback requirements. Um,
they don't take any up any required parking spaces. Uh, they're not stacked. These are single level storage containers. They contain only materials and supplies for EDM construction. Um and there's of course no hazardous
materials. Um the application uh I have also outlined all of the requirements under section 30 of the bylaw for issuance of a special permit. So we do meet all of the requirements for this uh special permit. The five criteria under section 30 for the special permit. So,
with that, um, I'd be happy to answer any questions. Thank you. Um, Attorney Kim, before I turn it over to the board, um, so I know this this was here before us prior, I believe in February or March of this year. At that time, we had noted there
was five storage containers on site. So, maybe if you could before I send it, maybe save us some time here. Has anything happened or changed since February? Has any organization or anything
uh been adjusted at this site improved? Has there been anything added? Uh improved in that there are four storage containers currently on the site. Uh two on the north side and two on the south side. So physical locations all the same as
the application. Uh prior the prior, you know, I wasn't involved with the prior application. the applicant came in on their own um and didn't have things quite in order. Uh I have since that uh that application uh was withdrawn. I've met with the
applicant a number of times and I've also met with Brian Zeli, code enforcement officer to determine how best to situate this and different options. Um and um we also actually met with the building inspector or he did I
should say with on on our behalf with um with some ideas here and this is what you see before you um is the way this should be laid out to uh make access the best but also to address
your question has anything changed? Um there were five storage containers at that time. One was removed there. So there were only four storage containers. Now two of those storage containers have been on site in excess of 25 years. So
those would be grandfathered storage containers. I've included those however in the five that we're requesting. Okay. I think I think that answers it. So but I I just want sorry more clarity. The two you keep referencing that you
say are grandfathered, they're going to be part of this four, correct? Physically going to move from their location and go to this spot you're proposing. Yes, they're currently on the southerntherly side of the building if you were out there and I'm sure that you
were. They're the older ones looking at the building on the right hand side. Y um the storage containers will pl be placed as you see them on this plan. So the four storage containers at the north end of the site um would be the permanent storage containers. The one
that you see on the southerntherly side of the site is the one that will move to project location. Okay. And this fifth one you referenced that has left the site. Is this the for lack of better words the rotating one
that goes in and out or uh and that's why it's offsite currently. just been delivered out to a site and it's gonna be the one that returns. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Um
has I Are you asking is the fifth one not on the site now because it's out on a job? Correct. Or was it sold? The answer is yes. Okay. All right. Um I'll hold my questions till the end. I'm going to start down uh there with you, Chris.
Uh just a maybe a clarification. Um the slatted fencing, is it going to be 10 ft tall? We're proposing 10 feet tall only to um try to respond to some of the comments
that we heard. Does it need to be 10 feet tall? No. the applicant would prefer actually eight would be would provide the necessary security type of screening that we're looking for. I suspect it having been out there as
recently as this morning probably also provide the visible uh but we added we said 10 because we thought that would be most responsive. And one other question the two gates are they is anyone going to have access to
these gates? Are they locked gates? Are they pass keys? Oh, there'll be a locked gate uh operated uh by Mrs. McIll and her staff. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thanks, Chris. Uh Ken, so I noticed it was um two smaller um
like eight 8 foot storage containers in the back. They were wayside containers. So, are those those Can I ask the um planning director? Um, so would an 8 foot uh storage container
be classified as a storage container or is it classified as like an accessory or something like that? I believe based on it doesn't in the performance in the u the designing bylaw doesn't say size I don't believe. So I think that it would be considered it would be considered
a storage container. Yeah. I think this what we talk about for storage containers are the large containers. They're typically, how long are they? 18. 18 to 20 feet long. Um, smaller little containers I would think
would be part of um a standard contractor's yard to put bolts and that's what they're used for here. And uh miscellaneous type of things, but not categorized as a storage container.
Well, what do we call them? It's not a shed. I mean, so it looks like they're standard storage container size, but but they're only like eight feet long. Yeah, I think those would be um under the bylaw, we're allowed to have equipment
type of storage in a contractor's yard. Okay. But we don't have a definition of a storage container. Bylaw doesn't contain a definition, I don't think. I'll look as far as size. I didn't think so either, but we could continue the conversation. I could I
could continue to look through that, but I also I didn't think that there was a size. Yeah, we'll let uh Josh look that up. And uh Yeah, you can get back to us. Um Yeah. So, those are on the east side, I believe, in the back of the building. Yeah.
Yeah. And then there was a bunch of where all the toolboxes are and stuff like that. Um there's a front end loader and a three other storage. Um, so there's two
two of them are EDM, but then there's a front-end loader and another storage container. Is that another company? Is that true? Uh, is that management north? Did it looks like it's abudding the
line? I didn't know if that was one of yours. No, that that's the problem. I'm sorry. Can you please identify? I'm sorry. I'm Jackie Miguel with EDM Construction. Thank you. That's part of the problem we want to fence in our yard is because we'll come in in the morning and there's random things. I don't own a front end load or I don't
EDM doesn't have anything like that. We have forklifts but no loaders. Okay. Because I noticed the markings on that was uh scrap metal management north. So I assume that's yet another company. I don't know who that is. It's okay. So just those two 25 or so footers are
yours on that. North side currently. Yes. Okay. Anything else? No. Very good. Thank you, Ken Squared. Uh, thank you. Um, Attorney McCann, you said the the fencing is going to be 10
ft high. How tall are the storage units themselves? I'm assuming higher than 10 feet. We believe they're eight. They're eight feet high. Storage containers. The storage containers are on the ground on a gravel surface.
Okay. I have no further questions. Thank you, Ken. Karine. Um, so just following along with that question, if they're 8 feet high, are they going to be on any type of a platform or any type of um I don't know, just just like a a stationary I guess
kind of footing which would make it increase in height. No. Okay. All right. Now, you also mentioned that there are trucks that are parking on your property and you're not aware of who they are because we're kind of having problems
with these kind of things in other parts of the town. Um, so if if you want to get in touch with Mr. Zaki and report that to Mr. Cassidy, it might be a good idea because he'll investigate and he'll have them remove their trucks from your premises.
Well, they don't need them there. Excuse me. Hold on. Can you please speak to the microphone? It's not like they're left for long periods of time, but but they're still parking on your property and they're not your trucks. So, um you know, we do like to um uh you
know, investigate that and kind of clear it up. And if you're looking to put a fence on, I would certainly encourage that. Um, so, um, Attorney McCann, with regard to these storage containers, so the four of them are already existing.
They're not purchasing any new or additional containers, and the four will be located on the spot that was on the plan. Yes. On the north side. Um, will you need a building permit to put up the fencing? We shouldn't. Okay.
So once if you're granted um your relief, you would move them immediately and then how long after that until the fence would be um erected. Order it right away.
Yeah. As soon as possible. Okay. As soon as possible. Uh they would order them right. They'd move the containers to their permanent location. Okay. and get that uh that fencing in on that side maybe first and then the other one. But
if if we gave you a reasonable time frame to have it all completed, would you be okay with that as a condition? Sure. Um one other thing, what exactly um is being stored in these containers? And the re the reason why I'm asking is
it seems now that it's kind of um goods and materials and things like that whereas when you came in originally it was more um construction equipment and I'm just trying to figure out what's being stored there. Yeah. Um I'm sorry it's a combination.
Okay. There's there's there'll be and it'll change depending on what we need but but it is a combination. We are aware that we need a if there is gas and gas equipment and stuff that needs to be stored differently, we do have
provisions for that. Okay. So, we are aware of that. The fire department has come through. So, that that is something we're cognizant of. Okay. Okay. because our outdoor storage, now obviously containers are different, but in Danverse, our outdoor storage
only allows goods, materials, merchandise in stock directly associated um with the primary operation of the lot. So again, if it's a storage container, you certainly if we allow it, you could keep equipment in there. Um,
but I think that's one of the reasons why the Salem Supply Company um case might have been a little bit different because they were actually stocking pipes and things that merchandise that they were selling um in their retail in
their retail store. Um, that that is true. That's what they were storing. However, in this case, this isn't outdoor storage. This is a contractor's yard. Oh, no, no, no. I know. I'm just saying as far as what's in the container. Yeah. So, I think she answered that
what's in the container is materials as well as equipment. Um that tends to either need to be covered from uh you know inclement weather but more quite honestly for protection from storage. This is valuable stuff. Okay.
So, um that's the type of uh it it is different from general outdoor storage because it's a contractor's yard where you can have materials um and equipment and vehicles and that kind of thing. But within those containers that I I think we've I hope
we've answered that question. Um and also these storage containers, will there be electricity, plumbing, or any heating that would be needed for any of that? No. Okay. Thank you. Do I have no further questions? Thanks, Karine. Um, Attorney Mcken, um,
in looking at this plan, I do see what I believe is red lines on it indicating a fence around the entire site. Is that something that's um, it's obviously not before us, but it looks like it's part
of the plan. When is that to happen? Uh, immediately. As quickly I'm not talking about around the storage containers. It looks like I'm seeing it all around the site. There are actually two fences uh that kind of go almost around the perimeter.
Um uh it it doesn't have it it doesn't extend towards along 95 because there is some fencing order put up there by DOT, but it does go around and there's gates. Um that's all part of um screening the
storage containers as well as providing additional security. But those fences aren't up now. They're not up now. And it sounds like those fences will achieve the uh a butters uh or keep them from parking. Okay. So I think I've uh
that answers that question. Um why why not expand the building? Why not uh do something else? Seems like there's plenty of room on this site to do that. Well, that's a big endeavor uh to expand
the building. This uh this property was just purchased in 2024, so just last year. Um and having the access, that's a big endeavor to to construct a new building or an addition to to the
building. That's part of what we discussed with uh Mr. Zakelli and Mr. Huden. What would be required for uh building a building here? Is that something that might happen in the future? It might.
But the storage containers so we're all provide I'm sorry what's needed for for security for the business and providing storage that also neatens the site and with the fencing also addressing some issues that they
may be having with a butters and others. Yeah, I think um so you know the bylaw is you know I think vague a little bit with storage containers because basically the bylaws hey you can have them for 180 days and
then we expect them to go away. What what I don't think even uh in in checking in with Josh here, it doesn't sound like we actually define the physical size of a storage container or are they a standard thing? So, I'd just
like to read uh just for reference or for informationational for the group um the definition of storage container. A fully enclosed detached self-support structure not having a foundation, electricity or plumbing and utilized for temporary storage of any kind.
Correct. I get that part. But it doesn't say anything about dimensions. That's right. That's right. Which we're all about the dimensions, right? So, um, did I hear you say though you think these are approximately 18 ft in length and 8 ft tall? 18 to 20 ft long.
Okay. They're about 9 ft wide. 9 ft wide. And they're about 8 ft high. 8 ft high. And I agree with you. I don't I don't see the need for a 10ft fence. And in referencing um Salem Plumbing Supply, I I can say I wasn't here at the check-in,
but I don't believe that's working out right now. um where they're actually storing things above the fence, you know, they're stacking above the storage unit. So, how do we prevent that? These four containers come full
and we start putting things up on the roof. Um we will certainly take a condition that there will be no storage on top of the storage containers. That That's good to hear. Um I don't like um
the Can I can I get a clarification? Sure. Okay. Um, Mrs. McIll is telling me that uh storing pallets on top of the storage containers is common. I I and that's where I'm going with
this. I just think that gets us back to this unsightly mess, right, that we're in everyone's estimation here, yours client as well, we're trying to clean up, right? Uh I would ask um again back to the
fence if you were granted this and this might be just me personally, but I think this these slats through chain links fence is horrible. Um, is there any way I've seen uh fabric meshes that look a lot more sightly? Uh, and I
I have a feeling they're probably cheaper. Uh, I think the problem with those slats is one breaks, one gets poked by a forklift. What you're not going to have someone out the next day to fix it. It's just going to stay there, right? Where maybe that uh wrap mesh, I'm not
sure what it's called. I don't know if the zoning board members or anyone knows what I'm even talking about, but Mrs. McIll knows exactly what you're talking about and she agrees that uh that might actually work out better and I imagine it's not as expensive, but I don't know.
Possibly not. I don't know the I just think, you know, we're we're trying to do some good things here, right? We're trying to clean up a site. You're asking for things we don't allow even in contractor J. We do allow outdoor storage. I get it. It's because it's a contractor's job, but we don't allow the trailers
and um anyway, but I I think all my questions have been answered. Uh, so you're okay. You would take the mesh instead. Yes. I don't know if I guess I'll go out to you. Um, Josh, what do we know why we want 10 feet instead of eight?
I believe um as the applicant alluded to that um prior conversations and discussion with nearbys there was a concern to you know try and you know keep the trailers as less vis
you know less visible as possible. So the applicant team was proposing a height that height I think as they mentioned earlier in the evening that they would even have a preference to not have a fence that high. So, right, it's not something that's coming from staff.
That's right. We we were trying to be responsive with to some of the comments that we'd heard during the the prior um appearance here. Um I did go back and look at Salem uh plumbing supply. That's a 6 foot high fence. There was some
discussion and a couple of board members um wanted eight. I think we went to eight, didn't we? Uh I don't know that I didn't see that in the decision as it being eight feet that I remember, but I had in my notes requesting eight feet above it.
Yep. Eight 8 ft is uh 8 ft's fine. All right. Um with the mesh, that's fine. And so if I'm looking at the drawing correctly, I I do see a bubble around the four, but they weren't going to be fenced in. Just this whole site's going to be fenced in. Correct. The
There are two sides. Josh, can you pull that plan up again? Yes. And and now while he's doing that, could you tell me what is the space between each of the trailers or storage containers? Is there a set uh spacing we're trying to give? Is it just to be able to open
the doors so they don't hit each other? Is there any way to blow that up at all? Josh, it's just some standard spacing. It looks like the the distance uh it's about this 9 ft kind of the distance is equal to the width.
So is the intent here to have an additional fence inside the site fence? No. No. That is that is simply a bubble around the area. So there's no it's not they're not fenced in. Is red? No. On your plan. I think it's just um the red is the f
the fence just correct. And so you're looking to put what was going to be these green slots, but now maybe this mesh around the entire site. I I guess I'm not clear on how these storage containers are being covered.
I'm going to come up and point. Would you like a pointer? No, I'm so here. Yeah. Fence is here. down to here. Okay. So that's the right.
So that's the only place we'll have the slats or mesh and the other side. Okay. So now south side of the building we're doing the same thing here. Okay. Here. Very good. And down to here. Then we've got a gate here. We've got a gate here. Okay. That clears it up for me. Thank
you. Um All right. I don't have any additional questions. I'm just going to strobe the board one more time if anything else has popped up. Yeah, go ahead. I just have one question. I saw the um the sample of the fencing and I thought
that was the mesh the mesh kind or am I mistaken? I don't think it is. But it's not the mesh kind. You think those are slats? Those are vertical slats, but we'll do which are a little different than sometimes the diagonal slats that you see, but the mesh is fine.
Okay. And uh I guess one last question out to you uh Josh. So this wouldn't go to planning B site review. That's correct. This is strictly on us. Okay. I have one. Uh yeah, go ahead. Ken. Um so those two smaller um storage containers in the back,
are those permanent? They're going to move to Yes. over to the right there. I don't think they are. You didn't see? No, they're separate. There's seven, right? If you count those as storage
containers, we never we the town that I've dealt with has never considered those sorts of boxes storage containers. Storage containers have always been these larger 20 18 to 20 feet long, 9 ft wide containers. That's what I have
always permitted with this board and previously with the planning board. didn't that what you're talking about are some smaller I would call them equipment which is permitted in uh a uh in a contractor's yard under
the bylaw that's that's equipment he it calls for heavy equipment and materials and things that's just a storage area for in this case what's in there are really heavy nuts and bolts are they shown on this plan but it is it is a container it's not a
piece of equipment. You would put equipment in in a box, but you're putting bolts. I'm just trying to wrap my head around. I mean, we have the definition and there's no dimensions and it's it is the height in the width of a storage container. Maybe not as wide, but it is the height, but it's not as
long. So, it it looks like a smaller storage container to me. I mean, they are shorter, but I mean, I don't know what to call them. Are they tool boxes? No. I mean, are they sheds? No. They have I think they're actually closer to tool
boxes given what's given what's in them. Yeah, I would say they have very big tool boxes. Very because the bolts and the that we're talking about big bridge steel. So the bolts and things are big and the and they're very very heavy. So, they have
to go into these to I'll call them tool boxes that are that are in the back, but they're not anything that I have ever heard be permitted as a storage container. Okay. I mean, the placement is probably
where they should be because they're by the bay doors. So if they can bring in the bolts and they have the grade we can build but I'm just I'm just a little bewildered by what do we call them and going forward and what are they to me they are storage containers so I guess
you're asking for seven one floating six permanent two being smaller if this board feels that those are now storage containers and that is not a a a definition that has been used in the
past for these types of containers that are around storage containers. And when Mr. Cassidy sends out notices, he talks about storage containers being what we think of. It's kind of one of these things. You know it when you see
it. It's a It's 18 by 20s big storage containers, not these smaller uh smaller things. And I think part of the the problem that I see is that the bylaw talks about needing
approval for storage containers. It really should be exempted in contractor's yards because contractor's yards permits big equipment, big materials, big vehicles to be parked
outside. Again, that's the definition of a contractor's yard. And now you kind of the bylaw is uh over overlapping now the storage container permitting requirement which really doesn't make sense in a
contractor's yard because you're already allowed this big equipment and and I would think that kind of a box is really part of equipment. Yeah, but we have the bylaw we're working with now and according to that it seems like it is small storage
container. I mean I I'm not saying I wouldn't approve because of it. I just want to have a good grasp on what is what exactly is there and what is a storage container. So, but I guess that's all I get. I think to follow up on that, attorney McCann, so
we you're asking for these four storage containers, one revolving one What else is on site that's not classified as a storage container but allowed as part of a contractor yet? I I think what Ken references is these two larger tool
boxes, Joe boxes, whatever they're called. Are there other larger items like that that don't fall under the heading as storage container? would think that there are guess we're just trying to get our arms around the it the whole thing
a long time to describe everything that's on site and things come in and out all the time like the staging and stuff so I don't if you have a specific question those but those were actually custom made for our heavy tools they have plates they have shelves inside so we can load it with forklift those
aren't so if you had to quantify like right now on your site you have how many of these items right now and it comes and goes it sounds like on a day I I probably have 150 jaw boxes all over the state where how many are in
my yard at any given time I have no idea and they range anywhere from a regular job box to up to above my head so that's what you can you classify them as job boxes yes and they come and go out of this location depending on the job that's next it'll
ship out to that new site yeah my experience of a storage container is the same size as a tractor trailer truck whether it's 20 or a 40 foot truck and those and none of our other equipment is like but we're not asking for 40 foot storage trails.
No, I'm just saying that's my understanding of a storage container in the 35 years I've been doing it. They were always like either a half truck or a full truck. So they were either a half trailer truck or a 40 foot bed. So it was like 20 or 40 because they can fit right on a trailer. And that was my
understanding of a storage container. Okay. Well, we're all getting a good education on uh storage containers, job boxes, and uh fencing, I guess, too. All right. Um if there's no other questions from the board, I am going to open it up
to the public. We're here on 20 Popes Lane. Uh if you have a question, please raise your hand and go to the microphone. Seeing hearing none. All right. I will come back to the board. Oh, I'm sorry.
Sorry. You go to the microphone, please. My name is Brian Edmonds. I live at the Meadows. I hear talk about storage boxes. I hear talk about fork trucks being used and heavy equipment. A question would be, are the storage
containers metal? And the purpose for the question is, if you're moving heavy materials around with fork trucks, slamming them into metal containers, that will be extremely noisy, startling. Um, and as neighbors to the facility,
that would be a concern. Um, I'll leave it at that. I I think um so uh this is 20 Pope's Lane and this is a permitted use in the highway quarter up there. So I agree with you. It's probably loud, but I don't think there's
many abutters to this um site. Okay, if that makes sense. All right, thank you. Yep, you got it. Um okay. Is there anyone else uh in the public that would like to comment? Okay, we'll come back to the board and
uh we'll deliberate. We're looking for a special permit requires a supermajority and uh Chris, we will start with you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I um I like the way the property looks now. It's a big difference from when Manter owned it and
had all kinds of things scattered everywhere. Um I will vote in favor for this. Thank you. Thanks, Chris. Ken, I'll vote for this, too. I'm I'm fine with those two jaw boxes in the back. Um yeah, I'm with the mesh. I'll vote for
this. That sounds like the best way to go. Thank you, Ken. Uh Ken Scholes. Um I'm a little concerned that we don't know the exact dimensions of these storage units. If it's an 8ft high unit, I guess I'm okay with the 8ft high
fence. If it's not, if it's, let's say it's nine or 10, I would I would like to have the 10- foot fence. But that being said, I would vote for this. Very good. Thanks, Ken. Karine. Um, I would vote for this um with the
mesh. I would want to cap it at three months to move the the um containers to their stationary site and have the fence erected. if you would take that as a condition and if you need extra time um
let me know and I can certainly maybe change that. I think it needs to be a 10-ft fence because of the distance from the fence from where the container is. I think it will um it will shield it from
view because the fence it isn't right up against it and I think we need an 18-month check-in. Attorney McCann, you okay with those conditions? Um I think three months might be a bit short because first we have to get
through the appeal period. So that's going to eat up a month. Okay. So um and then that's going to put us into the middle of the winter. What do you Can I ask? Sure. Timing. What do you think? Okay. Um
it um certainly the applicant's preference is to get it done before the winter, but if we don't if we have an early frost or something, we can certainly move the the tray the the
storage containers. You can do that to that loca the location shown on the plan. The four and the one, right? Um and right and uh the concern is availability of the chain link fence.
Um well what's what's a time frame that you could live with? Let's see. It's September 36. If we could do six six months. Yeah. Six months. So after the appeal
period. So have six months running after the uh appeal period expires. So that'll get us to April if we need it. So how about if we give you to April 30th to complete this? Would that work? Yes. Okay. And let me just clean this up a
little. So we're going to put a condition that both the uh fence and the containers are in place by April 30th. Have we decided on eight or 10 foot high fence? 10 foot.
I'm with you on the 10 foot. 10 foot high fence and with mesh. And we're asking for an 18-month check-in from now or from April 30th.
I would say how about a year from April 30th? That's fine. All right. So, a check-in 12 months are April 30th in 2027. Okay. All those conditions make sense. Uh, Attorney Ken, I can say, you know,
especially when this came before us back in February, uh, I too, like Ken, um, had some confusion on what's a storage box, what's a Joe box, what's a job box, all this. Uh, I didn't see the site, as
Chris indicated before when it was run by another contractor. I get the nature of contractor yards there, chaos, controlled chaos sometimes, sometimes not controlled chaos. I do feel like uh this does address um a lot. I'm not a
big fan of storage containers. I feel like um it's just a it's it's a difficult uh fine line to walk. But with that said, I did vote in favor of the one uh for the plumbing supply place, and I
do think this addresses some things. So, I will vote in favor of this. Um, as long as you'll take those conditions. Uh, with that said, uh, could I get a motion, please? Um, I make a motion to grant a special
permit to allow for a total of five storage containers to be located on site to provide secured storage for materials associated with the contractor's yard in excess of 180 days. Containers to be screened with fencing
um and that adjacent properties would not be adversely impacted. The proposal would not be detrimental to the public good and would not substantially deviate from the intent or purpose of this bylaw. In addition, we have conditions
um of one, the fencing shall be constructed with mesh slats, not slats, just just mesh. Yeah, mesh. Sorry, just mesh. Um the containers shall be moved to their
stationary site and the fencing con um completed by April 30th of 2026. The fence shall be 10 um 10 ft in height and there will be a checkin
in April of 2027. Very good. I've got a motion with conditions. Could I get a second? I'll second. I got a second. Uh, any further discussion? All in favor? I. Any opposed? Thank you very much.
Thank you. All right. Okay, Mr. Clerk, let's let it rip. Our next case is 153 Andover Street. This is Route 114A zoned. uh request for a special permit to allow for a
contractor's storage yard to be operated at the address listed above. Additionally, the applicant requests a storage container to be placed on the property for more than 180 days. The request is made by Interstate Property
Management Care of Owner Preso Limited Liability Company docket 25-5112. Good evening. Good evening, Mr. Chairman, members of the board. I have some to pass out to you. Sure. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Hi. Yeah. Could you identify yourself and uh tell us what it is you're looking to do? For the record, Anthony Cogiano, 310 Lincoln A SUS, Mass 01906.
I am the property manager here at 153 Andover Street. Um what we are looking to do, we have several tenants in the building that are um cleaning companies, transportation companies, delivery companies. Um the one particular we have
a a a landscape company that has a storage container out back that they keep their lawnmowers, we whackers, snowblowers. Um so they're the only ones that have the storage container and they keep all their stuff inside. Um there is no heavy equipment on the property. It's just
parking of trucks and um landscape trailers. So, I had thought originally that both hearings were tonight, both for the con for the parking of the vehicles and the storage containers. I I was unaware that was just the storage container until Friday of last week. So,
it's basically that storage container that we're looking for. So, the storage container that is there presently has been there since 2022. It is uh 8t tall, 8t wide, by 40t in length. And next to that, there's also a
smaller jaw box that is uh 8 feet tall, 20 feet wide. All right. Um, and I'm sorry, could you say your last name again? Coglaniano. Coglaniano. Mr. Cogiano, are these photographs from today? These photographs are from today. Yes,
they are. Okay. Because I was out of your site Friday and it certainly didn't look like this. Um, all right. Uh I've got um a few things I just want to point out. This is for the the neighbors as well. So I know you're here uh it
looks like on trailers and we just got a full diet uh not trails, sorry, storage containers. So I think we're we're kind of dialed in on storage containers right now. However, though, can I ask um so when did you uh take over u management
of this property? I took over this property January 1st of 2025. Okay. Um, so I'm going to um I'll wait on my questions, but uh I I think there's a
bit of confusion here. This board can't and I think you're aware of this. you can't grant um a special permit for uh what is perceived to be by planning
department a contractor's yard. So, um I think there's a lot going on on this site. I'll I'll give you an opportunity to explain it in more detail, but we can't grant that to you. I understand. and um to grant uh again
you you just heard a of full uh appetite of uh storage containers. Um it's a high bar and and this is a very I guess different situation where you're not in the highway corridor here
and this is not a contractor's yard currently. So with that stated, I will start uh unless you have anything else you want to present. Well, the the only thing I wanted to add is that this originated from a problem that was going on in an adjacent lot next to ours. Um
the property is owned by Lowe's. It's owned by one of the car companies and a portion of it is actually owned by us. Um the area in question we always thought or the company that I run now always thought that Lowe's owned it and there was illegal dumping going on
there. There were a bunch of Yeah, I got I got all that. Yeah, there are a bunch of homeless uh people there. Um once I found out through the uh engineer that we do in fact own the portion in question, I had it all cleaned up. I had everyone
It seems like a lot of good work has Yeah. has taken place. I understood there was a lot of vehicles there too. And so I I'm not I'm not here to discredit anything that's gone on. I get it. However, I think um I think I I know again I have a number of questions, but
I think we'll try to ferret it all this out tonight. Okay. However, um the way I understand the breakdown and and Aaron, uh Josh, I don't know why I keep calling you Aaron. That's right. You answer a bull, so that's good. Um I'm here.
You know, this address is uh 153, but there's actually, I guess, three separate and distinct tenants. and uh maybe four actually. Right. So, we've got Olive Garden out front. We've got the Lowe's. We've got group one, which has a deed amount of
spaces for parking vehicles. And then there's and I I just looking at the accessories, I guess you're known as site two or ST2. Is that what it is? Yes. I think Thank you. If you'd like, Mr. Chairman, I have a
copy of the deed and the actual drawings of the lot if you'd like me to give. Uh, it might be helpful. Yeah, sure. I believe you this blue area, correct? Yes. And what we just found out is we own that. Okay, let's uh Yeah, I'll go back to the mic
so we can get all this. Okay. Well, thank you. Okay. Um, do you have anything else you want to present? Because I know the board probably has a lot of questions. Okay, I'll take your questions. Karine, we'll uh start down there with you. There is a lot going on at at this whole
whole site. Um, first of all, I went over the original um I guess relief that was granted on this site. And at one point, and I'm not sure if it's still going on, there was some company that was doing employee offsite parking and
they were shuttle busing um employees back and forth. Is that still going on? Not not at our site. No, I think not at group one. Was that group one? Yeah. Okay. But Nicks um I I I believe there's some sort of like either rent a car or
some sort of taxi service. They they're still there because I saw those cars last week. Nyx is there. And what I did with Nyx is I moved Nyx to the um the spaces abudding the water so they can can't get any more legal dumping back there. Nick's cars are back at night.
They're gone all day. So that prevents that problem from happening. Okay. Okay. And and you you have that building. Um the law firm's um signage is on the front. Um what are the parking requirements for that building?
Do you know? Because I know that there's parking, there's some parking in the front, there's all the parking in the back, but if you have all of these other kind of contracted parking spaces, is it infringing on the parking for people that are going to that building?
Not at all. We have the building is 100% occupied and there is more than enough parking there. Even with the next transportation, the limousine company and and now that we found out we have these additional 75 spots, we have an abundance of parking. Okay. And you said
that you have two landscapers that um do do they have indoor space? Do they have offices inside? And so they have offices inside. And then how many vehicles do they each park out and back?
Um Proscape, who is um Mr. Lakus is here with me tonight. He has 13 vehicles and the other company has I believe eight vehicles. Okay. And but only one of them has a storage container.
Mr. Lakus has an 8 foot by uh 8 foot by 40 foot storage container. The other one has a smaller jaw box. All right. And the And they're both on the site. Yes, they are. I I know the big one, but um and that is located there all year round, correct? Yes.
What about the job box? The job box has been there for approximately 3 months. I don't know what what they're how long they intend to keep it there. That's why I wanted to add it as another constru another container on site.
Okay. So, these 21 vehicles, are they there year round? Yes. And they're only there at night during um kind of like the lawn maintenance season. Correct. Correct. And then uh Mr. Lakus also operates a plow business, plowing
contract, and both of them do. Okay. Um, but for the most part in the wintertime, those vehicles are there 24/7 unless they're out unless they're out plowing. Correct. And the V and I I moved everything behind the building. Now, at one point
the um the landscape trucks are on the opposite side, more towards the the property owned by Lowe's and and um the auto dealer. Now everything is behind 153 Andover Street. Um, there's a
six-foot fence behind 60% of it. Um, and if the board would like, I would add continue that fence down or make it however high you wanted it down the rest of the property. You can see in the pictures that I showed you, there's no fence behind the proscape trucks. Okay.
And um, Mr. Chair, could I ask Josh question? Could you give us just a summary? I know that we um Brian provided us with kind of a recap, but what are the conservation issues here?
Um I can't get into that too too much. Um but I believe that it I think it was alluded to I believe that it might have had something to do with the the dumping in the waterways in the back there. I think that's what was alluded to earlier. I believe that's what that's
one of um since there's not any uh proposed new building or addition, you know, they wouldn't need to apply for like, you know, a notice of intent or anything with the conservation conservation commission. I think if in your question uh conservation issues, I
think it mostly had to do with um like the like the legal dumping that in the town was notified. Not sure. Um I think yeah or our our office was notified that this was happening and then we we went out to investigate. I know that I know that Mr. Cassid's been out there
several times and he had Emily with him so that she could handle the conservation component of it, right? Okay. And but you don't know what was being dumped. I'm I'm assuming that it was probably trash from people that were, you know, illegally living back
there. Um, but I'm not sure about that p that piece or the the Well, I'm sure the neighbors are going to tell us all about what was going on, so we'll find out. Sure. Um, okay. I I have no further questions at this point. Ken, before I go to you, so but Josh, I
guess I I want to clear something up. Um, so right now this this landscaping business is not permitted to operate here. This is not uh zoned for that. This is a commercial building. So, I just want to
make sure you're aware of that. I am aware. So, so you know what's going on right now is in violation. I think uh I I just want to make sure that our board members are aware of that, too. So, quantifying trucks and you know, if you it's Could you bring up any of those photos? Yeah.
I mean, which which the your your photos? Yeah. I mean, I I you know, I commend you for trying to clean things up, but we're trying to clean things up on something that's not allowed. I I totally understand. And and I mean, this is what I had Friday. Yep.
And then uh if you could go I think there was like a stack of these. I think they're used for plowing, right? It's uh the snow pushers. What are they called? The yellow snow pushers that are stacked. Yeah. Um Yeah. I mean,
so this isn't a contractor's job, but you've turned it into one. And I I understand you said you just took over at the beginning of the year, but um yeah, and then this container, I mean, not none of this is allowed to be here. I understand. And uh I just want to make sure our
board's aware of that. So with that said, Ken, I'll I'll go to you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, so in the application they're requesting a special permit to allow for a contractor yard and currently they are not a contractor yard, right?
So I guess I don't have any questions because there's to me there's nothing to vote on. Well, I think there isn't the application though for storage containers. So yeah, but they can't have that unless it's a contractor yard, right? I I actually 14 not in 114 zoning.
If it was highway, are we understanding that right? Uh Josh, so basically I think this is out of sequence. They should be going to the planning board first. Totally agree with you. I think if I remember that was Brian
Skelly's take on this as well that because that's why they're getting violations now, right? We don't want to grant a storage container if they deny the folks if you could hold your comments
please. Um All right. Uh please ladies. Thank you. Um Um All right. So you have no further questions? I don't. Yeah. Ken. So there was So where Nick's cars are right now?
Yes. There's also two buses there. Is are those Nicks? No. That's a uh limousine company that runs from us as well. Okay. Damn car service. It's another company. There's also a
unregistered box truck. Box truck will be towed tomorrow. I sent it out to all our tenants over the last week to find out if it belongs to anyone. No one's claimed it. It's not registered. So, that'll be taken away. The white box truck. Yep. Also, there's an RV.
Looks like someone's living there. The RV is gone. It left on Friday. Okay. Um, what else did I get? So, the back Yeah, there was it's it's like a John alluded to this is gravel,
there's stone, there's mulch or something. There's uh block and stuff. So, it is being treated as a contractor's yard. Um, on the side there is another company called Clean Tech. Yes,
I believe they have vans on they're one of our largest tenants. They have approximately 5,000 square feet of office space. Okay. And they are cleaning contractor for okay hotels and major businesses in town.
Then also there's two smaller um storage containers on that side where clean tech is and they're called pack packavan packavan um storage containers. They're not that long. Again, they're like those
eight to 10 foot. Are they mobile? Uh, well, they look like they're just sitting there. Um, I could show Yeah, if you could show Can I take a look? Sure. Zoom real quick. But they're they're they're on the ground. I don't know if you can get them packed.
Let me show you. Let me show you the side of it. Sorry. Ah. Come on. That one's been removed completely. There's two of them. Not on that property. There's There was one gray one like that.
Okay. But I see two right here. They're abuing each other and they're right next to each other. Well, they're on the side like clean tech um fans. Let's go back to that mic. They belong to Infinity or something. Yes, they do. Okay. Sorry about that. I apologize.
No problem. All right. So then in the back also there is that big graffiti storage container. Correct. I saw Clean Freak out there stripping mattresses on site on Friday. So they're
actually working out there. I don't know if you knew about that. Is is that their storage container? The smaller one is Yes. Okay. The the my box. Yes. Okay. Yes. So, they were out there stripping.
Um, I mean, it was quick. They seemed like they did. They were very efficient. I don't think it's a big problem, but again, it's not a st it's not a contractor's yard. Um, then there's just a bunch of trash and hoses and stuff. It looks like you cleaned that that up.
All right. I guess I covered it. Thanks. Uh, Chris, I see all the Proscape trucks now. Do all those trailers stay there in the wintertime? The I would assume the lawn mower trailers that are on connected to each truck?
Yes, they do. Okay. And what about the Bobcats that all the pushers go on? Do those come to this site and get stored at this site or are they out on satellite? They're all They're all My name is Peter Lakos. Nice to meet you. One more time in the mic this time.
Peter Lakos, nice to meet you. Thank you. Uh they're all on satellite. Nothing's on on site. Okay. Peter, you were uh one of the tenants. Uh yes, sir. And what company? Uh Proscape landscape company. Um the only other question I had was how
about the I think I saw three. They look like junk plows to me that they don't work. There's a couple when you're looking at the Procape trailer down to the right hand side. They're going with the box truck.
All set. Thank you. Don't know whose they are. All right. Um, so I I think it's great that your building's full. Um, how many tenants are there currently there? Um, I believe there's 22 tenants at the
building. Okay. Um, you know, we're I think as I already alluded to, um, you know, several of those tenants aren't really allowed in this zone, uh,
without some kind of permitting from the planning board, separate board, right? Not us, not the zoning board. Um, I know we're going to hear from the neighbors. Um, and I believe a lot of good work has gone on here. And I I I want to form this in the way of a question versus
comment. Sure. Um but you're asking for something I don't think we can grant until these other steps are taken with the planning board.
So I I just um I say that with I understand the amount of work that the planning department's put in. I think along with conservation commission too and it seems like a lot of things are going in the right direction. However, I
I think the elephant in the room is we don't allow landscaping uh contractor yards to operate out of this type of site. So, so I want to say keep on the path of you know cleaning up and getting
unregistered vehicles and this type of stuff out of there. I think it bodess well uh for you know whatever you put in front of the planning board but I don't see how this board could grant storage container. So I guess I'll ask it this
way. What are you looking to put into storage containers? And how many are you asking for? The only storage container that I really want on the location is the one for proscape. Okay. But see again how can we grant Proscape right landscaping contractor is not
allowed there. I can tell you I I've been on the board of selectment in Saras forever and uh things are done a little different. Our zoning board sure handles both um I I get it. Um when I go when I met Mr. Cassidy on site uh he
told me that I had to come here first. Had I known I had to go to the planning board first, I certainly would have applied. Okay. In that Well, I mean, you know, again, I what was said is between you two, I wasn't there. But, uh I guess that's my number one question. And it's like you're asking for a trailer that I don't think we can really grant
because we'd be granting a trailer for a use that's not allowed. I think that's the way I'm understanding it. But but that said, um I think you did clear up some confusion um around the parking spots in the back because I had the same question and
that's where Nick's Transportation is now parking their vehicles, right? And I think if I heard you correctly, you think that's helped to curb or completely eradicate the illegal dumping that was going on back there because those vehicles are physically in
the way. So was it those parking spots where things were being dumped? Yes, that's where the it was a lot of furniture, um, old furniture, people throwing out trash, people found out about it and and and it did get to be uh a homestead for quite a few people.
Sure. And and so we feel like that and I'm sure I'll hear from one spokesperson I hope uh for the neighbors, but we feel like that has uh uh gone away. I'm there at 6:00 a.m. every day.
Okay. And so to your knowledge right now, uh there's no dumping going on. And And how long ago were we able to get this cleaned up? Uh to be honest with you, Friday has it taken the whole year or is it Friday is the first day that I I Well, I
Lowe's told me about six weeks ago that we in fact owned it. We had no idea. So I I got these drawings that I left you back from our engineer on Friday. Um so that's the first time I knew that the property belonged to us. But I I did take steps to clean it up prior to that
now that I know that it's ours. And is there a way to mark those spots uh in a way that Nyx understands? Like, hey, you can park in this spot, but not that spot. They they understand. It seems to me like there's a lot of room for unless you own the whole back.
No. Can I show you again on that draw? Well, no, you don't have to. I think I'm just I'm just trying I've always been a a big believer in, you know, striping a marking because uh maybe the average driver for Nicks doesn't understand. He's just do dropping a vehicle, right?
He doesn't really care, right? He's going home for the day. So, um I guess uh there are landscape islands back there and we own to the if you're looking at the landscape islands we own on So, you own and you said it was 75 spots.
75 new spots that we Well, that they're not new, but they just finding out, right? Okay. Um I think my other questions have been answered, but I I I do want to hear from the uh the neighbors. Sure. And um
but I I I wanted before we go out to public comment for the neighbors, the board's very aware of what's going on. I think um the town, and again, that's not us. We're not the town, we're the zoning board or neighbors just like you, uh has
done uh I believe several visits. We have enforcement letters. um this is uncovered a few things with Lowe's is uh you know going to have some enforcement uh issues as well I think we're looking into so uh this is a large campus we get
it you're in a butter to it I been on this board for 15 years I can remember when uh Lois was before us to do the Olive Garden and also when group one was looking for the parking spaces so um it is confusing to me but again I think
this site two, I think is what they're calling it, or unit two, um, has morphed into something it's not intended to be. So, I I I can imagine that was is is a sense of frustration for the neighbors. So, we're here to try to see if we can't
um figure it out and get everybody uh happy again. So, thank you. Uh, with with that said, is there any additional questions from the board before I go out to the public? So again, neighbors, we understand about the the dumping. We understand about um you
know, the contracted yard and and the things that are going on there. I think the applicant is addressing them. This board can't really fix those things, but uh we are interested to hear um from you and please not repeat each other. So uh
show of hands, if I could just uh have somebody come up. Mr. Chairman, before we do that, um I just wanted to let everyone know that this board is in receipt of 31 letters from a Butters not in favor of this application. Very good. Yes, we received those today, I believe. Uh yes, gentlemen at the uh
Maroon shirt. Thank you. Good evening. I'm Norman Dearborn from unit 308 of the Meadows, 19 Garden Street. And as gentleman just stated, we had 31 out of 35, now 33. It grew today against
this because of what we've been dealing with for pretty much the existence of that plot of land and Lowe's and Olive Garden since they were built in the early 90s. And it's it's noise, it's trash, it's people
hanging around, it's inferious activities. And it goes on and on and on. And dealing locally with those entities is is very difficult. They don't want to hear from us. They don't want to deal from us deal with us. They don't return our calls. Uh we called the
town back in May o over specifically this plot of land we're discussing now. Brian Cassidy and Emily Beatatric came down and that and let me just interrupt you. And that call was based on the illegal dumping.
That call was based on the illegal dumping, the noise, um pollution into the soils and wetlands and conservation lands. In your estimation, do you feel that has been addressed at this point? It's been partially addressed. the the
the main thing that we've seen happen most recently was the line of cars the gentleman just spoke of that are going right up against that retention pond. This is Nick's transportation with that. Correct. Okay. Not the landscaping vehicles. So to familiarize yourself with that
plot, what he's speaking of is the very back of it. There's one line of cars and then you have the two retention ponds. That's where the line of cars is. You go immediately to the right of that, there's another smaller parking spot
that ab butts the swale and directly behind the swale is us. It's our fifth building and fourth building. Three close proximity to the back of that lot. Very close. Yeah, the cars are a good idea. We I've seen an improvement in the couple of weeks they've been there as far as what's
going in and correctly stated what's not going in. If the cars go over further to the right where we are, that would be even better. The biggest problem we have with that lot is two things. We have to deal with three tenants. Who's who? Is it Lowe's?
Is it Group One IRA? Is it this gentleman? Is it Olive Garden? Who who do we call today? We don't know. We've we've never been told the most important problem for what people want to use it for.
It's totally wide open. No security whatsoever. No fences, no gates. Uh Lowe's is there all the time with tractor trailers coming in at all hours of the day and night. We have buses in there. Uh we heavy duty vehicles are in
there from time to time. We had as many as three to four overnight campers for days at a time this past summer and fall. They're all gone now. Thank you for doing that. And it's just got totally out of control. But there has been some progress. It sounds like
there's definitely been some and if I can remember back to the 2015 decision, I thought we had asked or the discussion with Lowe's was about delivery times and I believe a gate on one side of their property because they were having trucks idling or something.
Has that issue gone away or did that correction help? The issue is not gone away. The gates were installed. They're never used. I see them closed on weekends. They have two, one at the front, one near us on their driveways.
Sometimes they're latched, sometimes they're not. They just kind of swung closed. Rarely chained. Saw them chained and padlocked on a three-day weekend. Um maybe it was Memorial Day. Well, I guess I I will say this and and
this is um it's difficult for us as well because again this is a large site but it's one address. However, those issues are um you know actionable items that the planning board can you know contact
Lowe's on your behalf. So, I think, you know, look, I wouldn't want to have to be calling the town every day something goes wrong over there, which sounds like it's pretty regularly, but that is a valid avenue where uh the enforcement officer, Mr. Cassidy, can
come down and tickets can be written or notices. You know, usually Lowe's will uh have a knee-jerk reaction and say, "Oh, yeah, we're going to fix this up." up. And what I found in my 15 years on this board is every time they change a manager,
you're kind of starting at square one again. And that's not just Lowe's. And that's all the big box stores in town. Um although I think we're we're having some success with Walmart, but I always say the better the manager is, the quicker they're leaving because they're pushing
them up the ladder. I I I I am I'm not saying that to be funny, but my point is this applicant on in his building, we can't hold his feet to the fire for what Lowe's is doing. Uh if if we didn't
have these things in place in our decision with Lowe's, then maybe we could pull Lowe's in here to be part of this. But uh it is written in the decision and and I do feel like that's uh an avenue. Hopefully Lowe's can you
know again come back to where I'm sure they were initially in 2015. I I I I guess you've been there since that time and I'm I'm guessing I guess I'll ask the question. Was it better uh in 2015 when they first put the gates
in? Were they kind of uh were you guys neighbors happy at that point? It was better very temporarily and as you mentioned a moment ago, the better ended when the general manager at the time moved on. Someone
else came in and there's been a constant churn and burn, if you will, of that position in that store. And again, as you stay correctly stated, every time this happens, we go through issues, major issues, and we we we do
the process. We do the right thing. We make calls. We go up there. We present ourselves and we wait and we wait and we look for calls and we look for feedback. We get nothing. Then we escalate it usually to Brian and his group and they
step in. And not to be a wise guy, but it becomes a rinse and repeat every and I totally understand it and I and I understand the frustration. I just as a zoning board, there's not a lot we can do about that. And that's the sad part,
right? We've again we and as you saw on the prior decision, this is why we have these check-ins. This is why we add conditions to um agreements and but they're not worth the paper they're written on. If if uh you know if we
don't have those conditions in there, then the town has nothing to come back and say, "Hey, wait a minute. You guys aren't following this." I think in this instance, it's something that the town can come to them and say, "Hey, you're not following this." And and also the police, right? I mean, I I I know you guys don't want to sit there and call
the police all the time, but unfortunately, if if things are that bad, and I'm a butter to Lowe's, I don't think sometimes they give you any um avenue if there's especially it sounds like you guys approach it the right way every time and try to touch base with.
But again, uh, spinning back to why we're here tonight, that those issues, uh, we, you know, are not this this site two within this address has its own problems, but I I don't think we can do anything about the Lowe's and the truck deliveries and that
stuff. So is that originally we were told by the town it was probably the planning department I don't remember that that was the area we're speaking of that was called a car condo and it was for storage of cars and SUVs.
Well, there's there is a decision from 2017, I believe, or the 15 you are alluding. 2015 was when Olive Garden was put in. The next decision I think is 2017. Yeah, May of 2017. in 2017 allowed group
one, which is IRA and their group, they had x amount of parking spots similar to this applicant where they could park new cars and employee cars. And I believe that employee car situation was a temporary thing, but they still do own a
chunk of the lot. That's their right to do with it. And it's deeded. It's in the decision. I think it's in that on the map, that yellow area. Correct. That's right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, um, so again, but these are decisions. They're recorded. They're in there. So,
they are permitted to do that. So, this is but what's morphed to recently is buses, trucks, plows, campers. Again, uh I don't I I don't want to take up your time. This these are all planning board issues. Go back
go back and see Brian Cassidy. Well, you know, again, I don't know how, you know, how short of this site being fenced totally, right? You know, I know they have all sorts of troubles with the car carriers on 114. I
know they've stepped up enforcement there, but I have a feeling it's probably still happening, right? Maybe not as much. Um, so I I don't think I have a good answer for you, unfortunately. But I think it all starts with uh the planning department
understanding the three distinctive four distinct tenants that are here and who's allowed to do what. Now, we've already noted tonight that this applicant is not allowed to do what he's doing. um the 22 tenants he has I don't know how many of
them can be there by right but I know I know for certain it can't be a contractor Jad and it can't be all this landscaping equipment so that piece I think we can try and solve and I I think the applicant
uh my my assumption is he's going to apply with the planning board and I would expect all you neighbors to be there and be able to talk about these things I I can't. There's no magic bullet here. Unfortunately, I don't think we can just wave a wand and solve this. I would like
to say we could, but it's it's as you as you've seen, it's not easy, right? And that's um the unfortunate uh part of being in the butter to this site. I do think Lowe's and again I'll I think when they're before us and they're listening
they're they are apt to react in a positive way and try to clean things up because they do want to be a good neighbor but they're not before us tonight. So right and his historically over the 30 plus years I've been there they've been
a bad neighbor much more so than they've been a good neighbor. and the bunch of people I see is shaking their heads in agreement with me. I I I can't dispute that because again I don't live next to it. So I I would agree with you. Uh and the hope is always that we can try to improve things.
What would be the correct entity for us to go to? Well, that's a good question and I'm going to throw that hot potato right over to my M Mensing and the defense security of that lot. That's what would be the best way for these neighbors to address this these
concerns. I guess my question would be in terms of um what area on this map is the issue or like geographically up here is I guess that the you know this isn't the application that's in front of us
today but what is uh the area that you're saying you think it's the is it the yellow area with the group one or is it this applicant here within in the light blue proposals Yeah, that's it's the yellow. Yeah, that's the lot
right there. Yeah. So, that's group one. Yeah. And this is where his building is. Correct. Okay. And then he has these rear spots behind the yellow, which is where Nick's vehicles are all parked. You see that?
Yeah. Exactly. Yep. So, and this is the area that you're having we're concerned that yellow that that seems like that has started to become a problem or it's been a problem all along. There's our building right there. Okay. Our other building right there and then
they come down this way. You can't see. That's our issue. Okay. Well, um so I guess we can ask the planning department to you know uh send a letter to uh group
one and ask if uh you know maybe they can address these concerns. I mean it's not in front of us tonight. I know that there was a recent issue with, you know, there was a recent zoning violation there that our office spent a great deal of time, you know, getting trying to help get rid of.
I thought that was all the cars that were parked there that were not affiliated with any of the businesses there. Yeah. And again, Aaron Eron, I'll get it right before the night's out. Josh, you know, it's usually Brian over there. That's why. Um, their their spots though aren't
delineated either. Correct. There's not like a a box on the ground that says, "Hey, your spots are here." We we have it on the deed this way, but it's not right. In reality, in the field, you're in that parking lot, you're not you don't not even plow sticks or anything. Right. I don't think so. So, I don't know if that answers the
question, but you know, again, I I feel your pain. I get it. Uh but I I think it would start with uh you know, it sounds like you guys are very diligent. You do your homework and try to talk with Lowe's and talk with it. But I think the the issue it sounds like you're having
is with group one and what they can and can't put there and uh you know are they in their sandbox or are they spread out as far as campers and large view I you know I don't know with a parking field that big and unfenced and off of you
know three major highways right 114 route one and 95. I don't know how uh to solve that one. I don't know if anybody does, but fencing cameras, fencing. Yeah, all of it. But it comes at an expense and
and it's who wants to do that? So, um if I could Yeah, Mr. Brad Street. Sure. And just so you know, like for instance, Home Depot over by the Liberty Tree Mall, they're they're the same nuisance to the Riverrun people. It's the same
stuff goes on that that you're dealing with. Okay, thank you for your time. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you. Uh, go ahead, sir. Bill Bar Street, town meeting, member of precinct one. I failed to ask at the Pope's landing. I'll ask at this one. Is
it your purview or the planning board hours of operation, which I think might affect these folks? Uh, yeah. I you know that's again that's a interesting that's a good point because I think they all have slightly different
hours of operation. I would imagine all of God's not the same as Lowe's and uh this applicant uh I don't know we we'll ask that question. I don't know his hours of operation. That would be my biggest question. My only question hours of operation. If I'm hearing the neighbors right though, I I
I understand they're not happy with the contractor job, but I think I don't think things are happening late at night, but I guess um I'll let somebody tell me otherwise. We have to ask, right? Yeah, sure. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else? Yeah, right there. That gentleman.
Uh my name is Nick Wild. I'm in building five at the Meadows, which is the one on the picture there, closest to closest. Yes. Yes. Um, and I've lived there for just about 20 years. I've served on the board recently and also in the past. So, I've had a lot of
dealings directly with Lowe's primarily as well as the other um tenants and owners. Um, so I've had a lot of experience um with this issue and proximity. Um, so I will answer your question that you just asked and yes, there there is
stuff going on 24 hours a day and including the weekends. Um, are you able to pinpoint it? Is it? So this is so I I think one of the big problems and maybe this is planning board or I'm not sure who but this there's kind of this no man's land here
and you've alluded to this as well where it's like everybody and nobody owns this area where the worst things are happening and therefore when there's a problem no one takes responsibility. Sure. But when it serves their purpose oh it's
ours. And as you also alluded, cleanups happen, you know, at just the right times when something's needed. And that's been a pattern where it takes us, you know, weeks, months of back and forth with the tenants, with the owners, eventually with the town, threatening
letters come from the town, things get cleaned up, and then time passes and it's back to square one. But as far as sounds, I mean, Lowe's is probably the earliest in the morning and latest at night for a noise. And they're supposed to not start at least until 6 a.m.,
which is still pretty early. Almost every day for the past few weeks, 5:30, 5:40, I'm woken up by forklift activity, loading docks opening and closing, engines beeping, banging sounds, and it goes until 11:00 p.m. at night. So
that's earliest and latest of legitimate activities, although it's a violation to start at 5:30 a.m. Sure is. Um, and then throughout the night is what's ever happening on this no man's land, right? which is I mean
probably not Lowe's but it's doesn't change the among other activities drag racing donuts fireworks and it sounds clearly clearly there's I got to ask you I I read uh somewhere uh I think it was one of the letters it sounds like
uh Danver's PD has also stepped up patrols in the area so have you seen improvement I mean no not overall um even in the last as far as as far as the cleanup up. Um, you were asking about No, I'm talking about like overnight noise, the car racing and that kind of stuff.
I mean, I guess in the last few weeks I haven't heard the car racing specifically. Um, still hear loud music. There's, you know, it's kind of a hang spot. It sounds like loud offensive music. There's um I think I've heard firearms, but I can't be sure
um at times, not frequently. Um definitely fireworks and um and there's clearly drug use happening back there and and alcohol consumption because you can see the remains. Sure. You know, the next day. So that's like between 11:00 p.m. and 500 a.m. And then
it's the commercial activity the rest time. Dump giant metal dumpsters also multiple neighbors with huge dumpsters that are banging at 5 4:45 in the morning. 5 again I'll I'll say it again. Those are actionable items. Dumpster pickup can
happen prior to 7 a.m. and it's just a simple call to the police department and the police can uh definitely write tickets and they can be present to witness it. So, it's not your word against whoever's picking up the dumpster. A lot of times it's just, you
know, those trash pickup companies, if they can get away with it, they will. But if they know they can't come till 7, they usually will refrain and come at probably at 7 on the dot, but they shouldn't be there at 5:30 in the morning. Again, I I I feel your pain. I
I think it's horrible. Um but I do think this is an area where uh you know, again, I it's not this applicant per se, but there are actionable items here where Danvers PD can be involved and you just really have to be diligent. It
sounds like you have a bird's eye view on all this, unfortunately. I literally I can see over at their fences, too. And there's also all these properties have bright lights that are on 24/7 as well. I I think if you can just be persistent, usually what I find is, you know, this
crowd or whatever is happening there, they're going to find a new place if they know the cops are there all the time. Uh again, that would be my hope. Again, I think it does take work though, unfortunately, on not just yourself, but you know, all the neighbors, right? So,
I mean, I'm willing to keep calling the police if they'll keep responding and that that's it's a quality of life problem and and I don't think it's uh you know, I don't I'm sure the police don't look at it as a burden. You know, this is why they're
here in town. They're here in town to protect us from this kind of stuff. So, I mean, I've called them a couple times, but not a lot. Yeah. I'd just say step it up. I mean, maybe they're not going to like seeing this video tonight, but I I think they want, you know, everybody wants their peace and quiet, right? And it doesn't
matter if you live next to Lowe's or if you're, you know, on some dead end side street, right? So, um, so it sounds like we've reached a point where that's the enforcement now is the actual police, not planning board, not zoning board, not anything else, just go to the Well, yeah. I I mean, if there's things
that uh you know, our group one's doing uh that shouldn't be happening and that and their chunk of this, then that's actionable by the planning department. Uh just like this tenant, it's actionable to not run a contractor's yard. Uh Lowe's should be using that
gate. They shouldn't be firing up their equipment at 5:30. Dumpsters shouldn't be getting picked up prior to 7 a.m. Um those things I know. So, um that's that's the best advice I can give. Yeah. And I the last thing I'll just say is I know I speaking for myself and I know
neighbors of mine. I mean I added it up and it's we're talking thousands of hours of lost sleep over 20 years and it's it's a you know it's a physical health issue. It's a mental health issue. It's a quality of life issue. Sure. And I don't disagree. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you.
Yeah. Hold on one second. Uh Mr. Bratz, hold on. I just want to see if there's anyone else with any new comments or anything I haven't already heard. Yep. Go ahead, sir. Yes. I introduced myself earlier. I'm Brian Edmonds from the Meadows. That's
19 Garden Street. Is a It's a new topic, but related, and I'm asking for your direction. We also have a neighbor, 27 Garden Street, that has an auto body shop in it, Dent Wizard. And my place is
overcome by paint fumes. Not every day, but often. In the morning, I get in my car, the inside of my car smells like paint, even though my windows are closed. And I'm This is on Garden Street. This is on Garden Street, 27 Garden
Street. My question is is I have called the town in the past. The answer I get from the town is we've done what we can do. We can't help you. I haven't called the police. I'm not opposed to calling the police, but um my question is is
first I would like your awareness of that. So if there is zoning action that allows auto body shops to be in res next to residences that that's be strongly considered because although requests for zoning and planning actions are well-intentioned as we see these
things get quickly run out of control. Yeah. And then it's up to the residents to be policing them. We can call people, but we are the ones that invest our time. We are not at work when we're living there. We're paying to live there.
So these things need to be strongly considered. But I am asking for your direction on how would I address that issue or how would the Meadows address that issue. Well, again, it it doesn't pertain to uh the application before us tonight. However, I guess I will uh again go out
to my friend Mr. Mars uh for his direction on this. Yeah, I mean um if it's a business that's been operating or you know I mean our first if you called the office loud louder please. If you called the office tomorrow, I mean, the first thing
I would do is from a zoning perspective, see if that use was allowed and then if it was, then you know, we would go from there. But that would be So, it sounds like the the steps to take would be to call the planning department and and ask if uh this is an allowable
use at that address. Give the specific address. This gentleman represents the planning department, correct? He is from the planning department. His name I couldn't hear what he was saying. Yeah, from the planning department. You just call into the planning department. Call Brian Cassidy. Okay. Very well. Brian Cassidy would be a name if you
wanted. He's our enforcement officer. All right. Thank you very much. You got it. Uh Mr. Brad Street, one more time again. Bill Brad Street. Uh only because the gentleman mentioned the lights from this property lighting up the house. Yeah. Is it this
board or the planning board that can uh I call it light pollution or whatever? Yeah, I believe uh there is some new action coming up soon and I will again go to Mr. Morris on this. Um we recently even at the recent town
meeting in February, we had uh proposed um some light regulations to be added to the um to the zoning bylaw. Um unfortunately at that time uh there's there were some folks in town who felt like the language was uh needed to be
amended in some manner. So it was not ultimately voted at town meeting. But um we're hoping um at a future town meeting in the notsodistant future for u new lighting kind of regulations requirements would be added to the zoning by us. And then
we could when we have these conversations, we could point to the sentence or two and then we could say you are in violation for you know so but we're not there yet. However, a good neighbor would do what they can to shield. It's not just businesses
sure flooding backyards sometimes as neighbors flooding other neighbors. Yep. So I think that's what the bylaw was trying to address. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Um, if there's no other comments, I'm going to ask the applicant to come
back up. Um, and you wanted to rebut or speak? No, I just Yeah, go ahead. I just wanted to say that, um, I heard one of the neighbors say if we could put the cars, Nick's transportation along the other side. I certainly have no problem with that. I'll ask them to move that a portion of the cars down the the
right side of the back of the lot, which are your property. No problem. I'll pe through the chairman, please. Excuse me, sir. He wants you to address him. Yeah. Hold on. Let him let him speak. But uh so I thought um if I heard you correctly
though, we thought this was serving a good purpose to stop the dumping and this type of stuff. No, I'm I'm going to keep them where they are, but I will add them down the the other side. We're furthering this kind of pseudo fence, if you will. Correct. But with motor vehicles. Correct. I got it.
Uh yeah, go ahead, Kar. I just have a a question. Sure. Do you have any security back there? We do not. You don't have any cameras or We have cameras on our building. They don't pick up the lot. Could they be changed so that they do? I mean, I think there's a lot going on
in this lot that you should probably not want going on back there. Well, I've cleaned up quite a bit of it. That was and I have no problem adding cameras if that's what the board would like. I have no problem with that. Okay. Because I think it certainly would help um you to be able to monitor it.
Um, but also it it seems like there's a lot of illegal activity going on back there that's not being done by your tenants and you should want that stuff out of there. I've I I think now that again now that we know we own that lot, I've cleaned up a lot of that.
And and again, I'll go back to what I said at the top. I think some good work although I know the neighbors are still frustrated, but sounds like they're frustrated is frustration is not just with you. It's partly with Lowe's. It's partly with group one and um I think there's still a
lot more work to do. Any of the neighbors who want my cell phone number, I'm happy to get they might call you late though. Yeah, I don't sleep much. Doesn't bother the phone right out the window so you can have property everywhere that I deal with.
But to bring this back around to what were before us tonight. Uh I don't I again this is and I'm giving my opinion, but I I just I'll Well, I I let you speak uh twice, so I'm just going to I'm going to close the public side of it because I think I
think we've kind of hit all the high spots here. Um but I I don't think we can um grant this special permit at this time. So board members, my thought is we either continue this or withdraw without
prejudice. And I think I'm hearing from Mr. Morris maybe a continuence would be in order. That'd be more appropriate. You know, it would be appropriate. So if you were be all right with that and we can work out some dates and that allows you time to file with the planning board.
Sure. and address the, you know, the the what's not allowed on this site and then perhaps return to this board. Okay. And again, I'm not trying to give the runaround here. I think a lot has gone on that is positive, but I think there's still a lot of work to do.
Totally understand. If if I were to file this week, would I make the next meeting or into October? I don't. But we could we could talk tomorrow. We can push you out. So, uh, our next meeting is Sep September 22nd. I don't think that would be enough time.
We could either go October 6th or October 20th. Does that give me But that's your choice. I have no problem coming back. I just want to make sure I can get to the planning board prior to coming back here. Well, why don't you uh Josh, what do you think? Why don't you Why don't we do um
maybe why don't we do the October 20th for this hearing? Okay, that should give you plenty of time. Okay. So, uh, but, uh, I'd like to give the board members a chance to to give some comments. So, uh, I think that might be helpful. Sure. And, um, and then, you know, we'll make
a motion to continue this. So, Okay. Uh, Karine, I, um, started with you. So, uh, just some comments for the applicant. Um, I just agree. I think you need to go to the planning board first um and you know see if they'll grant you the
contractor's yard before you seek a special permit for the storage. I think you should take what the neighbors have to say because again they're there 24 hours a day and they're there at night when you're not there and they're monitoring what's going on. And again, I
think some of it pertains to other building owners and other things that are going on, but I think there's some illegal activity going on back there, and you shouldn't want that on your property either. I certainly don't. Thanks, Karine. Uh Ken, I agree with uh Karen. Karine, um
obviously you need to figure out if this can be a a contractor storage yard first of all before we can even vote on that. Um, it seems like you're moving in the right direction, cleaning things up. Hopefully that's appeasing the neighbors a little bit. Um, but until you do that,
I think we have to hold off. So, we're doing the right thing to go into October 20th. Very good. Thanks. And Ken Jerry, and I agree with um what the other board members have said about the contractor's yard. And you're going to get rid of that box truck tomorrow, right?
Yes, I am. Okay, good. Yeah. So, you're doing a lot of stuff. And then, uh, yeah, we'll revisit it once you're a contract is yard. That's all I get. Thanks, Ken. And Chris, the only thing I have to add, there is quite a bit of difference between Friday
when I drove through and today when I drove through. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Yeah, I I would say the same. Uh, you know, again, I I visited the site Friday and clearly the photographs I see today are are certainly better. However, um
you I think one of the neighbors said it, you know, when when people are here looking for things, they're putting their best foot forward, right? But but then how is it afterwards, right? And as we've already heard, yeah, things aren't so great with Lowe's. Maybe things
aren't so great with group one. So maybe you can buck that trend and you know we'll we'll get hammer out something here between both boards and uh um you know and something that will stick. I think you know uh as somebody that lived
next to a business that wasn't a great neighbor, it is frustrating. So I get I get uh all the the butters here, their pain, if you will. Um and I wouldn't want that and you wouldn't want it either, right? So, so I I think to my fellow board members
point, you know, increase security, uh, you know, and maybe it's just a spot check, you know, maybe you have your own security people go there, you know, every random other Friday or something just to shoe people off your site because with out the fencing there, um,
I just don't see how you best police that area. I don't have a good answer and I I think it would be quite an expense to try to close that off and fence it. I I did I I would ask though um I noticed and I I didn't see in your
photos, but there was an area of the chain link fence in the back that did look like it was broken and maybe if you could get that repaired fix I think a lot of good work's gone on here and I commend you for it. I I hope it continues and and I hope we can um
you know find out find some way here to keep everybody uh going in the right direction. So, thank you for your time. Yeah, with that said, uh, board members, it looks like we're going to continue this case till October 20th. If I could get a motion, a motion to continue the case until
October 20th. I'll second. I've got a motion and a second. Any further discussion? Hearing none. All in favor? I. Any opposed? Very good. Thank you. Uh, and Josh slash Aaron, if you don't
have anything else for us, we'll uh we'll uh sure go up to the microphone. Yeah, just for the record, state your name again, please. Yes. Uh, my name is Brian Edmonds. Folks, if you just hold your comments for a second.
Yeah. My name is Brian Edmonds. I live at 19 Garden Street at the Meadows. So, it was established this evening. I want to understand the authority of the zoning board because it was established that there are businesses operating that aren't allowed to operate. So, what
immediate actions are taking place? Well, they're they're currently under a uh zone what's called a zoning enforcement. A letter has been sent by the town and they're currently uh I believe it's a fine situation and but
those fines are held uh with the hope that we come up with some resolution. So, they are currently under an enforcement action by the town of Danvers, written letters. Uh, the applicants aware of those letters and the town's monitoring the situation. So,
uh, while they're before boards, you know, they're given that grace period to try to get this resolved. I see. Thank you very much. Very welcome. Uh, motion to adjurnn. I make a motion to adjurnn. And a second. All in favor? I. I. Thank you. And, uh, good night.
Good night. I don't know if he wants to step back. Um, well, since he continued it, uh, you might want it. What's his last name? Hey, Sandy. How are you? I know. Where have you been?
Well, Josh, I I I got your name wrong most of the night, but I finished strong. I got it right at the end. I hear you. I hear you. I have I have my hand in so many different things that when I am able to