o'clock, which just turned. So hopefully this Yeah, the mics just got turned on. We're okay. Um, we're all good. The only thing is that that screen's not like there should be something on there, but there isn't.
Well, can we start? If John's like John John is watching the meeting, he can hear. Okay. All right. So, we don't need to see him. Good evening and welcome to the June 23rd, 2025 zoning board of appeal meeting. Um, I would like to begin
tonight by welcoming the new members, our new members, um, to the zoning board. Um, they were recently approved by the select board and sworn in by the town clerk. To my far left, I have Chris Dumbowski and to my far right, I have
Kevin Beridge. I would also like to introduce you to the rest of the board. Um to my right is our clerk, um Ken Scholes. To my left is member Ken uh Jarvin. Um on the other
side of Ken is Becky Kilbornne. And zooming in tonight is John Bonner from and I'm the chair. My name is Karine Dy. From our planning department, we have our planning director, Brian Zakelli.
I just want to give you people in the audience some rules for the evening. When the clerk reads uh your application, whoever is speaking on your behalf, whether it's the applicant or um someone on their behalf, please proceed
to uh the podium and introduce yourself. Provide us with the specifics of um your application. After that, we will go to the board for questions. Um and after that we will go out to the audience
members and people who are on Zoom if they have questions or comments. I do ask because I see that we have um some audience members tonight. If you want to speak when it comes to the audience participation um please raise your hand. I will ask if
anyone wants to speak and when I call on you please proceed to the podium. Um please give your name and your address and then you can ask your question um or provide your comment. Um please don't yell from your seats and please don't talk over anybody else while they're
speaking. So with that I am also going to ask anybody who is in attendance if you could silence um your cell phones um so that it wouldn't it won't be a distraction this evening. So, with that, um, zoning board members, we are in
possession of minutes from the June 9th, 2025, um, meeting. Do we have any comments or edits? I believe Becky had one edit. One edit. We made that edit. That's all, huh? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Do I have a motion to accept the minutes? So
moved. Do I have a second? Second. All in favor? I I I John. That was John. That was John. Okay. So, everyone's in favor. Okay. Mr. Clerk, if you could read the first case. Thank you, Madam Chair. Our first case
is 184 Center Street. This is zoned R3. uh requests an appeal from a decision by the zoning enforcement officer that all commercial kennel operations must cease at this residential address. As such, operations are not allowed in any
residential zones. The request is made by Melissa Nardone, docket 25-5103. If if you could go to the podium, that would be great. Um I I also want to say before we received u multiple letters I believe approximately eight or was it
nine? Another one. So nine. Okay. Nine letters. We're not going to read them all into the record. Um but we are aware that there are a lot of people who are in favor of your application. Um and they will be part of the record. We're just not going to read all nine of them.
Okay. Thank you. Okay. You can begin. Good evening. My name is Melissa Nardone and I live at 184 Center Street in Danver. I'm here tonight to respectfully appeal the cease and desist order issued against my small inhome doggy daycare
and to ask this board to reverse the zoning interpretation on which that order is based. For more than 10 years, I have quietly and responsibly operated this from my home as a single mother, supporting both myself and my daughter.
I was unaware I was in violation of zoning bylaws and during that time there has been no formal complaints about noise, traffic or neighborhood disruption. The only issue ever raised was an anonymous report in 2022. Out of
respect for the process, I paused operations temporarily. Recently, after a picture was posted of some dogs on Facebook, Brian Zakelli sent me another letter stating I had another anonymous complaint for the same
reason, zoning. This is not a largecale facility. I care for a few dogs at a time in a clean, calm, home-based setting. My clients, many of whom live right here in Danverse, rely on me to provide safe,
structured, and individualized care. I personally handle nearly all pickups and drop offs, and my service does not increase street traffic. In fact, people often use my driveway to turn around. I am not asking for special treatment. I
am asking for fair consideration based on the character of my neighborhood. Key facts in my neighborhood. While my property is considered zoning three, yes, it is surrounded by commercial activity. I live less than 500 ft from
Route 1, a major commercial corridor. The closest business and residents located at 168 and 168R Center Street are just 350 and 250 ft away from my driveway. A hotel and shopping plaza are
located at the end of my street. I have a bright commercial light that shines directly into my bedroom window at night at 168. My street function as a connector between Route 1 and Route 114
is consistent with traffic daily. This is not a secluded residential enclave. It is a transitional mixeduse area. my homebased pet care service aligns with that reality. I specifically ask this board to reverse
the interpretation that my small pet care operation constitutes a prohibited commercial use and instead to recognize that under the specific conditions of my property and neighborhood, this use is both reasonable and compatible.
What I have been doing has allowed me as a single mother to ma remain financially independent while serving the Danverse community for over a decade. I am simply asking for an opportunity to continue doing so legally, respectfully, and with
the same care and responsibility I have shown all these years. Thank you for your time and your consideration. Thank you. Okay, we are going to um I'm going to ask the board members if they have any
questions for you. Um John, why don't we start with you if that's okay. Uh thank you, Madam Chair. Um through you, I' I'd actually like to start with um Mr. Zeli. I just would like a clarification. The
applicant said they were R2, R3. I I just want to be clear. Are they zoned R2 or R3? Uh there R3 there is a a error in the uh agenda. It is squarely in the R3.
Okay. Thank you. And um Mr. Nardone um I guess uh although I've read your narrative and I I admire your um ability to run this business I guess for a decade now. Uh I'm trying to understand uh have you ever pursued
uh you know a commercial type facility that's not in a residential neighborhood as part of um running this business? No, I haven't. I wasn't intending of having a commercial facility. The point of my business was so people had a private
comforting home to bring their dogs because not a lot of dogs do like to go to large facilities that have over 60 dogs. I have dogs who are anxious. I have dogs who need medication. I've taken care of some sick dogs. I only
have a few dogs at a time, so it's quiet, not stressful for these animals that I've been caring for. Yeah. I I guess I'm not really asking about a large uh facility. I'm just asking, have you entertained or looked at any other
facility besides your home? Not yet. No, I have not. Cuz Okay. And um again, I did read your narrative. I guess I just, you know, we're in a a situation here where we're bound by the bylaw and I I
don't see uh where the town errored in uh issuing this cease and desist. So maybe you could expand on that a little bit. What why do you think this zoning shouldn't apply to you? Because I mean you are ancial neighborhood. Yeah, I've
resided here for 47 years. And the area I live in is not a traditional residential neighborhood like in Woodville or by the prep or in small areas by the high school where I know there are many other people that do the same exact thing as I do. I literally
live feet from a highway. The traffic is ridiculous in my neighborhood. It's not like a quiet area at all. People that live around me don't even know that I have dogs at my house. I don't cause any disruption. It's not the typical neighborhood and that's the reason why I'm here to try to see if you can
consider just letting me continue what I'm doing since the highway corridor is one house over from my house and I can see two large commercial businesses directly from my driveway as well. Yeah, I I can understand that. I guess
expand upon a little bit uh you talked about an anonymous complaint. What what was the complaint in 2022? Zoning which so that that came to you or did that come into the town? I got the letter from Brian Zeli I believe in I'm
sorry I can't pronounce your name perfectly. No no you are Zell Bri. It was just a different Brian. It was Brian. Oh it was a different Okay. So, I'm not sure who the Brian was in 2022, but I went no, the our enforcement officer, Brian Cass, and I talked to him and I asked if he could allow me to get
a kennel license and everything and I was just trying to do the right thing. Um, I shut down operation for a little while, but it is my main source of income that supports me and my daughter. And considering I caused no actual harm
or there wasn't an actual complaint on my behalf or on the care of my dogs, um I continued walking dogs and then bringing them back to my house a couple at a time and due to Okay, I think I understand where you're going. Um so, uh
Madam Chair, through you to uh Brian. Yes, Brian. Do uh do we have a quantity or a count or if any uh other dog kennels of this type operate in residential neighborhoods in the town of
Danvers? Uh no we do not. So basically the way that in we don't have a we don't have a count or we don't have any. No no we don't have so we don't go around looking for people that are having kennels in their house in residential
areas. That's not how we enforce any of this. So, however, when someone does bring a complaint, and this was one complaint to be clear, it was one complaint. Not that there was a complaint about the care of the animals. By the way, I don't think I've ever gotten so many neighborhood positive
letters. Just so you're clear, this is no one's trying to attack the business that it it's based on the bylaw. somebody. Uh so then when when when a complaint is is issued to us, we have to investigate.
What we found from online and from site visits from the public way was it's very clear that there's a business being run here. So then we said, okay, you you can't do this. But uh and the same thing will happen. Maybe this will uh alert
others who are having uh doggy daycarees in residential neighborhoods that if it's over more than four dogs, they are not allowed. So that that is what the bylaw is. We have the ability to change the bylaw at town meeting. Town meeting can do that. But right now, we mimic the
state law of a kennel, which is a pack of more than four dogs. So you can have a personal kennel, meaning if you have more than four dogs of your own, you can have that in a residential neighborhood, but you cannot have other people's dogs more than four dogs in your home as in a
res or not in a residential neighborhood in a z in a zone that is uh zoned residential. So okay, I think that is it for me. And I just have one other question. Um Mr. Now, uh, have you considered, uh, reducing your,
uh, operation to what would comply, which I think I heard Brian right would be no more than four dogs. Absolutely. Um, I've never had site visits at my home either. I heard you say that. I don't know. It was a simple drive. I drive home. Yeah. Yeah. Because I've offered to have people come to my house
when this first happened to just so they can see and I didn't get any um Okay. Thanks, Madam Chair. I I'll uh I'll yield and uh I'll hold uh any questions for uh later. Thank you. Thank you. I don't know if Oh. Oh, the rest of us
get to ask questions. Um Kevin, would you like to ask a few questions or a question? Sure. Um I I guess can you tell me a little bit more about the nature of the business because I'm just trying to distinguish kennel from pet daycare which are are separate items under the table of allowable uses. So,
do you offer overnight boarding for dogs at your home or is it strictly daycare? I have been. So, during the day I have a couple dogs. Um, I've had up to six dogs from 11 to 1:00 and then I do board a few dogs at night as well. Um, I wasn't
aware I wasn't supposed to do any of this. And then the dogs I do come I have a couple that will come for a full day and I usually pick them up and drop them off. Um, so that's basically how I've been running. I also go to other people's houses to do visits as well. So, the most dogs I've had at my house
at one period of time was six. And thank you. And and I don't use kennels. It's more of a pet sitting service. I I understand. Okay. Um um so either way a a commercial style
kennel regardless of I mean I guess technically if it's less than four dogs it's not considered a kennel at all. Sure. And it has to get to four dogs to be even a personal kennel or or a commercial kennel. So even if you're going to do
more than four dogs as yourself that's just yours. you would actually need to look here a special permit with the ZBA in any of the residential districts. So, it used to be five dogs. If you were doing five dogs, you needed a special permit. Now, it's four. But anyway, the
point is is that if you have any more than four dogs, no matter what, if it's yours or not, you need something from the ZBA or it's not allowed. And so, it almost seems to me like you're asking for two different types of relief at the same time. No, there's no
Well, I I This is an interesting Yeah. Madam Madam, Point of She's not looking for relief. She's appealing a decision. So, she's not in here for an application for a special permit. That So, that's that's what I'm that's the point I'm getting at. So, I heard the applicant
say special permit, but that's not actually the purpose of this. It is to determine whether the zoning enforcement officer was correct or not. Correct. So, so we issued a letter saying that you can't operate a a commercial kennel um because uh it's not allowed in a
residential zone. Then, um we gave her the opportunity. She's like, "Well, what can I do to potentially appeal this decision?" And we're like, well, you can't apply to become a commercial kennel, but you the only the only opportunity you have is to appeal the
decision to the ZBA saying that we acted somehow inappropriately in applying the law. She decided to exercise that right and that's why she's here. Thank you. I I don't have any further questions, Madam Chair. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Um,
so in 2022 when the letter came to you to cease and desist, was it because you had more than four dogs there? At the time I would have sometimes three dogs, four dogs, no more than six dogs. Um,
and then I got that letter and was totally blown away by that. Um, I spoke with the Brian at the time and asked what there was anything I can do if I can apply for a kennel or a special permit or something just to continue operations and the answer was no. So
then for a while I kept it under four dogs and then you know I had a picture of a few dogs over this the beginning of the spring and there was probably like six or seven. Um, and then I got a letter again from Brian. Right.
So, Madam Chair, through you, Brian, if she kept it at a four dog maximum, she'd be fine. According to the state, technically, it is not a it's not even a personal kennel. It's not a kennel. Would that be something you could take
as a as a uh it's not it's not a condition. There's no decision. It's in terms of if if that's what she's going to do. Again, this decision, sorry, I I don't usually speak this much, but this is not a typical application. This is an appeal. This is not relief that she's
asking for, right? I just want to make that clear. Technically, I'm asking if I could just be considered part of that zone. A special I don't I mean, I asked for a special per I got I asked
for a special permit. I got a note. I have a highway corridor house literally I can walk over from my backyard and she's considered the highway corridor two houses over. My neighbor across the street lives directly next door to the Hancock building that you can see these
massive buildings from my house. I can see Route One and you can see the plaza on Center Street. Right. We get that. But the thing is is my area is not residential. We can't change the zoning. So just because you're on the border of say industrial,
you're still zoned in R3. Okay. Like Mr. Bowerer said, um, and it's not allowed in our any of the residential zones. Um, I guess that's all the questions I had. Thank you, Ken. So, are the dogs mostly
inside or are they out? I have a fully fenced in backyard. They're in and out all day. My house is connected right to the outside so they have the free range to come in and out and I'm with them all day. And you have a fairly large backyard as well. So that's totally
fenced in. Yep. Okay. Yeah. I have no other questions, Becky. Um I I'd just like a clarification. I we have um the deed for the property. It's submitted as part of the application with Paul and
Sandra Miller, but your name is Melissa Nardone. So, are you a tenant there or My house and my father Paul Miller's house? My my mom passed away. So, the house is mine. It's going to be passed down, but that deed I believe is
when my mom was still alive cuz they both signed that. But he's 90 years old and he couldn't be here. So, you legally own the house? Yes, me and my father. Okay. It's under a trust, baby. Yeah, it's under a trust and she's the
beneficiary. Okay. Okay. I just want clarification because you're talking about it as your house and it it Yes, it is my house. Okay. All right. We're just looking at the owner of record and if Yeah, my name's not on that and it's my mom and dad. Okay. All right. That's all I have. Thank you, Chris. I'm all set.
No questions. Thank you. Okay. Um I I I have a few questions, but let me start with Mr. Zelli first. So they're here obviously because of an enforcement order. So the only thing we can really say is we agree with the enforcement
order or we don't. But but on the flip side, if if four over four is that magic number, whether she has a business or whether she has a personal account. So, in a residential zone, you can have a
personal kennel, but they're they're all your dogs. They're not um it's not a business, and people aren't bringing dogs to your home. And in a residential, we couldn't give you a special permit for you to be able to conduct a business. But from what I I gather,
Brian, you were saying earlier, if she if we say no, the enforcement officer was right, because he is right, but then you conduct your business and and you don't schedule four dogs at any given
time, then you're in compliance. Does that make sense? So I have the definition that we use as well as the state with the the umbrella definition of kennel is a pack of dogs that's four or more then there's different types of kennels personal kennel commercial kennel. So correct if it's four dogs or
less we're not here. It's not anything. It's not a kennel. It's not anything. So the the only issue is that uh what's also what started started this was a potential business certificate if there's lensure involved or anything
like that or um you know insurance any you know anything like that like that you know through the board of health you know that not our business to be honest but I mean that's their department but technically if it's four or less it's it's not a kennel.
Okay. So, it it looks as if we might have a solution to this problem if you agree or or again, we're going to have to at least I'm going to have to vote to to
enforce because, you know, we're the zoning board. You come to us if you have an issue, but we have to enforce our zoning bylaws. And if we we can't change zoning either, that's something that has to go through town meeting. Now, have
there been um have there been times when a particular applicant has come in and you know, they've kind of begun the process of changing our zoning for their specific situation. Yes, that has happened, but that's not something that
can happen immediately. And I'm not sure even in this situation that it would happen, right? because we're we're really trying to prevent um businesses in the middle of like a residential area. And I understand yours is kind of quasi residential because you are
residential, but you will but all of these other um commercial zoned uh properties. So again, the way I am going to vote is that I am going to vote to enforce it. But as Mr. Z Kelly said if
you schedule your dog so that you do not have more than four at one time then the town is not involved in this business. No no no I would say the as far as zoning is concerned. Well, as far as zoning, as far as right as far as, you
know, conducting a business and um what you what did you say, Brian? Like um obtaining a business certificate, health department, the health department, all of that. They could be involved. I wouldn't even I would just rule on
what's happening. Oh, no. That's what that we're just going to rule on what's happening. Then it's then it's up to the applicant to do, you know. Well, I just don't want to say that, yeah, they can operate and then the board of health goes in there and says, "No, they can't." So, I'm just not comfortable saying, "Yeah, of course you can
operate." From a zoning perspective, I know that you can't. Okay. But we like the zoning board, we're only going to rule on the zoning aspect of it. Yeah. Okay. All right. So, questions, comments? Thank you, Madam Chair. Uh Joanne
Vaguchi, town meeting member, precinct 2. I have a couple of questions. One question is um I guess it came up at the question was slightly answered was no one from zoning ever visited the home
as to see how many dogs were on site. I know the applicant already said so, but no one has seen the setup from zoning at all. Correct. Well, we have, Madam Chair. Um, well, has anyone visited inside the home to see what the dogs there and to see what it looked like if
it was a Well, my question is is that what bothers me about this whole process and whether it's the law or not, I'm not going to get into the law. It's the appearance um that on the town
is that it's a bit of an overreach. Okay, Brian, please yield the floor to me and stop with the remarks or I will ask the madam chair to ask you to leave the meeting. That's hilarious. Okay, I will not I don't want I don't want any
outburst. I don't but I don't want him outbursting to me either. I'm The questions are coming through you. I have the floor. I don't want any remarks. Would you like Please, Madam Chair. Yes. Would you like And you can ask him to not do that. Say anything. Everybody
please comment. Thank you. I I can I answer your question though? Yes. Typ typically what happens is um a complaint will come in and they come it complaints come in through various departments in various ways. Um, usually whoever
receives the letter or the complaint, it's um, assigned to Brian Cassidy. Mr. Cassidy goes to investigate. In this situation, he didn't go out to investigate. He didn't have the board of health go out to investigate because this is something that's prohibited in
that zone. That's why they sent the letter way back in, I believe, Brian, it was 22 said, "Please stop." If if you're you said if you're operating a kennel, right, please stop. If you if you're not operating a kennel and it's a personal kennel, please apply for a special permit. Right. So So there's no need to
go out and investigate because either it was commercial and it's prohibited or it was um personal and then she would apply for the special permit and then we would go out as members of the board as part of our um like preparation for each one
of these meetings. But I I have to tell you, I I I'm an attorney. I deal with compliance issues in all cities and towns, and Brian Cassidy is one of the best. That's fine. I That was my question. That was my question, and you
answered it. Thank you. Um, according to the town zoning laws or bylaws, how many children defi define a daycare? I would have to look it up. An inhome daycare. We we don't define that. That's done by
the state in terms of what an Indian how many children define it. Wouldn't Can you look up Can we look up that law, Madam Chair? It's irrelevant. No, it's not not to my argument. Not not to my argument that I'm going to make. Well, why don't you make your argument? So my argument is is that there are mothers
that we know and that we've known over the years who might have a couple of children of their friends or family and they may or may not get paid for and bring them into their home and care
for them during working hours or have them overnight and provide this care for them, specialized care. And I think it's a little bit of an overreach by the town by one anonymous
complaint where no one can go out and see what's going on because of the laws. And it can almost seem like to me where this person is not making themsel known
and not publicly complaining about it. It's almost like the town and their by and our bylaws are being used to bully this resident with just having a couple or few dogs at her house and caring for them.
Now, if the town is not aware of someone having a bunch of children at their house, which I know of a house that does it and it's set up Oh, six or less. Thank you very much. So that's my point is that
I think it's I think it's a very dangerous thing that this complaintant has put the has put the town in a dangerous position because it's almost like a bullying situation,
you know. I think No, I think so. And it it might be a personal vendetta and they're using the town zoning laws to to to do this to somebody. And um I don't know, this is the way I'm seeing it. Um and I think, you know, we we
don't want to have spot zoning in this town. Well, we don't have one spot enforcement in this town either because I have been in very many situations as a town meeting member complaining about bylaw
violations to different departments, including our police department. And I've been told, "We're not doing it. I don't want to get sued." And I can give many examples, but I won't because that's not this board's
job. So, I know what the laws are and I know what you're sworn to do, but I think this is something that should have never come to this situation. And I think that maybe we should change the
zoning laws in order for someone and the laws to not be used to pick at somebody. And I think that's what this situation is. I don't I do not think anything else, whether it's the law or not. I I don't want to argue the law. I'm getting down
to a personal level of somebody living in the privacy of their own home and they bring a dog into their home or a couple little dogs and she takes care of them for the day. And I think it's a big overreach by the town. And whether it's the law or not,
did she identify, you know, control? Um, so again, I, you know, we can't get at, we can't go down to the personal level. We're here just to interpret and enforce the laws. Exactly. I understand that. But on the flip side of that, I want the
board to know that that it's it's harassing this lady who's a resident, who's a taxpayer. So, um, has the person do we know who made the complaint? Do we have that on record in the town?
Um, I believe we do. Okay. Okay. If the only time it's it's not is when if it's a phone call, but I believe we we do have it. So, they made a written formal complaint or do they just call? Uh, no, it was it was not I don't believe it was a call.
Okay. It certainly Okay. I'd like to know that, too. Well, I mean, obviously, but she wants to operate, so it's it's obvious that that I think she should. Yeah, I think she should. I think I think it's over I think it's overreaching. I think it's overreaching because if someone has less if they have
more than six children in their house and they're not signed up as a daycare or they have less and this same complaint comes in, you don't have it on the you guys don't even know what the law is. You know, this is my point is that I I just think it's I think it's
harassment and I don't like it. The other thing that I'd like the zoning board to note and for the zoning enforcement officer to note is that this resident did complain about 168 Center Street. The lights need to be addressed if they're shining in her in a resident's windows.
So, I'd like to have a report back on that in 30 days that this has been fixed by 168 Center Street. Let's enforce that. What which lighting bylaw would you like me to enforce that did not get passed? I don't know, Brian. I don't have a copy of the bylaws in
front of me. It didn't get passed, so I can't Well, it's a nuisance to this resident and we need to address that for 168 Center Street that they're they're a nuisance to to the residential neighborhood that they abut. I I believe, Brian, um so let's note
that. Excuse me. there there is an online form um to um file a complaint for any type of zoning. So, anybody is um is able to do it. You can just go to the town website um and fill in the form
and you hit submit and then it goes to the department who should be investigating this and then they'll come out and take a look. Okay. Just a that's fine. Point of information, Madam Chair, I believe John got kicked off the Oh. All right. Well, thank you.
And just my last remark, I don't want to take up all the time of the board, but I do hope the zoning board votes in favor of Melissa. Um, I don't like to see anyone's spirit be broken, whether it's the law or not. I think it's I think there's bigger fish
to fry in this town. um other than you know someone who's taking care of three or four dogs in their house and that someone has a bone to pick with someone who is as kind as her. Um and I think that your our zoning laws again are
being used. I think the town is being used to bully her. So I don't like seeing that and um that's who the board should stand up for. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Anyone else? The woman in the blue
shirt. Hello. I'm Susan Barry. I live at 189 Center Street. I've lived there all my life and that's a long time. Um, I've lived next door to 180 for as long as she's been alive. So, I'm very familiar with that neighborhood and what's going
on there in the whatever. Um, I guess couple things. I'm I'm a little confused. I came here not knowing anything really and I'm learning a lot sitting here. And one thing is now you can have as many dogs as you want as long as you're not taking money. No, you
still need a special permit over four. Right. Yeah. Okay. That So that's but but they have to be if if you're in a residential um zone, they have to be your dogs. Okay. And we have had people come in for whatever reason, they have five kids, all their kids want their own
dogs. One's a comfort dog, one's this, one's that. Um, so if it's residential and it's over four, you come in for a permit and a special permit, but they have to be your dogs. Okay. I didn't realize that. I don't have any dogs. I'm
a cat person. But anyway, um, I have I've watched Melissa and what she's done. Um, I I live directly across the street. I My house is looking right at her house. I never see much traffic. I
even know wouldn't even know. I see her go in and out, but I don't see other people coming in and out. I don't I don't hear dogs. I hear my other neighbors dogs, but I don't hear her dogs. I I don't see how it's a big deal other than there's a zone. It's
residential three. I understand that. It's a law. Now, my next question is, um, if you get an anonymous tip, so to speak, and you don't follow up on it, Brian, how do you know it's true? We did
follow up. We did a I thought you said you don't investigate. Inspect the house. We're not going, you know, we we do everything from the public way. So So, how did you investig How did you know this? Uh, Mr. Cassidy drove by the house. Uh, you could the the whole yard is fenced in. They saw some dogs. They
didn't know exactly what was happening either. E either either way he didn't he didn't even just please. Okay. So Mr. Cassidy said you never know there was a dog. Mr. Cassidy said if you have he didn't even accuse you. He said
if you have more than four dogs the first letter from 2022 we can bring it up. If you have more dog four more than dog more than four dogs that are your own. We weren't even saying you were running a kennel, meaning running a commercial business. It was an anonymous tip. We did not know exactly what it
was. We sent a letter. We said, "Hey, if these are your dogs, you're good. If you're more than four, you need to come in." This is what the letter said. Then they said, "If you're going to if you actually are running a business, you have to stop that because you're not allowed to do it." So, that was the
first letter in 2022 where we didn't know exactly what was going on. It was a It was a letter saying from what we could tell from the road. Okay. All right. How do you get that letter? Not at all. I got from 2022. You must cease
and desist all of your business. There was nothing about anyone seeing anything from a road. It was nothing about coming in talking. Madam Chair, if you could have whoever's speaking go to the microphone, please. It's the letter's in your packet. Um, could you go to the
Could you please go to the microphone? I'm not quite done. Okay, you can step aside. She'll speak and then I want to get able to come back. Okay. The letter from 2022 just basically demanded I cease and desist immediately.
I did not get anything that said what you're saying, Brian. Well, typically typically what happens is when they get a complaint in, they will send a letter just stating, "Hey, we got this complaint. contact the office. You know, we need to figure out
what's going on here. I came to the town hall. So, you did get an initial letter. I got a letter saying cease and desist immediately. I didn't say anything about coming to the town hall and to talk to somebody. And I did come in and ask for personal kennel license and then I asked for a commercial kennel license and I
got a no because I didn't have more than four dogs of my own but I asked for a um kennel license as again to take care of four dogs or more and I got denied that as well. Um, okay. So, from the start when I realized
I shouldn't be operating a business, I stopped you considering it a business and just saying I take care of some pets. Um, because the town of Danverse wasn't allowing me any leeway. Like, nobody was allowing me to get a kennel
license, whether it be personal or commercial, and to cease and desist immediately. So, I I'm here tonight to try to do this the right way and to be legal, unlike all the other doggy daycarees that are
being ran in town, but because they haven't gotten any anonymous complaints, they're still running their doggy daycarees such as I have been for the past 10 years. But because there's somebody out there who doesn't like me, it's a personal vendetta. I don't know.
That's why I'm here tonight. Okay. Thank you. Um, you can go back and ask your second or make your second comment, whatever it is. I'm just about done. Um, the only other thing is this is just on a personal notice, not nothing to do with law, okay? This is
just a human response. That is, as I said, I live next door. I'm a cat person. She has taken care of my cat out of the goodness of her heart. She It's a business to her. Yet, she has done it out of the goodness of my heart. She has said um I will tell come over twice a
day I'll speak to cutie you know I'll make sure she's okay she comforted me she was a counselor when I went away for two weeks she also I can call upon her at any time and say I'm going away for a week and she'll come water my plants she's a good person why why do we want
to go after her when there's a bunch of other things I'm sure in town you could be going after Brian and if it's one that I brought to the town and was never pursued quite honestly. Just so everyone knows, this is like Brian Brian is the planning director. He's not the
enforcement officer. No, but I think and he's got a lot to say tonight. He's just enforcing He's just enforcing our bylaws. I needed I needed someone to direct it to, Brian. I apologize if I'm being offensive. Okay. Offensive. No, I'm sorry. All right. Anyway, who's
next? Okay, next. We'll we'll start on this side. We'll go to that side. The woman with the green shirt. I want to yield it to you. Hello, my name is Jane Thornell and I am a a homeowner at 182 Center Street. I am her closest to Butter. All of my
property runs right beside her. Uh and has for 25 years. Uh I I mean I fully endorse. Now we've got an attorney up there. You've got a wonderful mind. What can be done? I mean, have you ever dismissed a case based on lack of
evidence? Is there anything that can be done to help out this ve? I mean, she's an entrepreneur and that's wonderful, but more than that, I mean, you can't um you can't I call her the dog whisperer behind her her back because she'll have
two dogs there and somebody will begin to growl and she'll turn and she'll say, "No, Jacob, we've been all over this. You're to leave Carolyn alone and it stops. Now, I've had dogs. Nobody Nobody ever did what I asked them. I have cats now and just like Susan said, she comes
in, she takes care of my cats. Plus, don't forget, you know who's not here? It's her 94 year old father who lives in the house with her who if she does have to get a relocate. I mean, I don't know what's going to happen to him. So again,
I mean, I don't know if any of the other attorneys are up there, but you know, put put your minds together and see what we can uh go ahead and work out. I have seen Melissa with animals. She is so kind. She never raises her voice. I have
never seen her be anything but kind to her dogs. They're very obedient, although I just don't know how. Uh uh but she she just is that person. Uh, I trust her implicitly. When I go away, I hand her my keys and that's it. And she
takes care of one, two, or sometimes three cats. She renders a vital service. There are people probably in this room that would not be able to have an animal if it wasn't for Melissa and the service that she renders. So again, I I mean, in
terms of changing the bylaws, I wouldn't I this is a special case. I don't know if you can have like a special case for Melissa. Whatever you can do to keep this this young woman employed at home
caring for her 93 93ish uh dad and a a group of very well- behaved I'm right next door and thank goodness I still have my hearing. I have never in 25 years had to talk to her
about any noise. You would never know uh that there was a dog next door. So again, uh my full support for anything that uh the board can work out to allow this woman to continue in her business. Thank you. Thank you. The woman in the
stripe shirt. There you go. Blue stripes. Blue stripes. Green stripes. Green rematch. I got you. Hi, Laura Chvers, 168R Center Street, the culprit of the lights that bother her. So, I will um look into that. By
the way, Melissa, um so just to piggyback off of Jane real quick, I I've been in Dammers now just 5 years, but I live now one house away from her. So, it's Melissa, Jane, myself, and I lived in the house for about three and a half
years before I even had known she she had a little side dog business. Um, and I have a dog. I was always bringing her to a commercial place. She didn't do well there. Um, she's got she's a rescue. She has anxiety. Um, it may have
even been Jane. I know one of the neighbors. And, um, I ended up, you know, meeting Melissa, bringing my dog there. If it weren't for her, I would not I literally would have to bring my dog everywhere. I probably wouldn't be able to go to work. Um, you just you don't you don't hear. I
mean, I'm I'm literally pinpointed next to the commercial building and I have her on my other side and it boggles my mind that she can't do that, but I can have and I get it, they're commercial, but trucks going in and out, that's beyond more disturbing to the
neighborhood than she is on her side. And I think one thing I'm really confused and I don't know if it would be the um zoning or um which department this would be, but we sat here for a meeting a couple years ago for these trailer parks on Route One that are trying to build into our properties. And
I sat here, there was some attorney that was just strongarming us the entire time telling these homeowners that it's it's basically what you what you signed up for when you bought on in that beltway cuz Route One's right there. Sorry. nothing you can do about it that you're just going to have trailer park trailer
homes in your backyard. Um but yet she can't have this b this dog business which you can't see driving by her house. You can't you could be in her driveway and you wouldn't even know she had dogs there. Um I mean I walk over but there's there's just nobody would
ever know that. And without her service and I agree with the the whole daycare thing. Um, well, a their children are a lot louder, but um I think my dog makes more noise than than hers. And it's just I I just always go back to though that
the whole trailers that are like coming into our yard soon, but she can't have possibly six dogs at her house. Um, I understand you can't change the zoning, but maybe there is. Maybe she should get a special permit and she didn't know to do that. or maybe there's some way that
it just doesn't get shut down under completely all because of this meeting or maybe because of paperwork that might be missing or the wrong forms or something. I mean, there just has to be a way for a special permit or um just just something that um maybe she could have help with a better direction than
just shutting her down. I mean, she's put her daughter through school now. She's in grad school. She's a single mom. She's doing all that and um I just don't see how she would continue to do that. Um, and if say you are a pet lover, which she is, does that include
if she wants to have a dog, she actually just lost a dog, unfortunately. Um, so she could only she couldn't have a dog if she wanted to have a business and have um four of other people's, but not her own pet. Just doesn't seem fair. The whole thing at all. I understand zoning in this, but literally stand in stand in
front of her house and you'll be more disturbed by all the cars in Route One. Um, I know I'm now getting redundant, so um, I back her. I support her. And, um, Sky wouldn't be, um, have the life she had without you. So,
thank you. Thank you. Um, anybody else? Um, why don't we finish up on this side and then go to the next side. Hi, Janelle Walters. Um, where do you live? Your address, three Florence Street ins. Thank you. So my question
is, is there because she is in a commercial zone, is there a way to reszone that? Well, she's she's act I know it's not going to happen right away, but is there a way to go in and and look at the property? And she is
literally like one house over from commercial property. So how is there a possibility at doing that? I mean, you could you could you could petition like the town meeting. There's a process for it. I'm going to bring it up. It would
have to go through town meeting. It would have to go through town meeting. So, this So, you can see where she's only like one one or two spots over from commercial properties. I'm assuming that the blue is commercial, correct? It's highway. It's highway corridor. So,
she's two houses over from commercial, right? So you the only way to do a map change through for zoning is to go through town meeting that happens twice a year. Um this actually out of all parcels that could potentially be you know this is on the cusp which is where
you typically have zoning changes if it was smack dab in the middle somewhere else. I would say there's zero chance she has a possibility to I mean I don't know why town meeting would do it but town you could if you're if you're saying what is the only thing that's possible you would probably have to get
your neighbors around you to hold on right yeah this is this is a big one yeah right those all now turn into highway corridor zone so that if you tear a building down for you're going to have difficulty building
residential it is Not. So it's like it's it's the only you have this much of something just because well no doubt you would have to have your neighbor involved at 18 at 182 from free advice.
If I was them I don't know why they would do this. Just be ju just realistically I I don't know why they would want to do that. It's putting a limitation on your property unless you're like I want to develop a commercial property here and then it's an investment. So, it's not dead dead,
but that is literally the only way and it's a tall order for town meeting to want to do that. Am I correct though in thinking that it could also be done through a use table change and not only through a map change? Probably the whole point we just changed
the kennel bylaw to mimic the state law which is actually pretty permissive. It's more per it was more permissive than ours. So, probably wouldn't mess around with that one. um because it is quite permissive the state law which is what we adhere to now. Thank you.
That was my only question. Um if you want to go back up. I just have one question. Um um Joanne uh Reaguchi town meeting precinct uh two. this young lady who was just up, she had a question that what
she said it popped a question into my head. Um, I'm not familiar too familiar with the zoning laws, so you can help me, but isn't there a special permit or a finding that the board can do
for her? You can do like a special a special permit for a like a personal kennel where you own all the dogs and that would be four or more dogs. A commercial has to be in a commercial zone in a
commercial zone and this is residential. So there's one more uh layer to that. So we're one of the few communities that allows use variances. Yes. However, we do not allow use variance. The reason main reason we're here is because we do not allow use variances in the
residential in in any residential zone. Okay. What in Brian? Most towns most towns don't allow them at all. Correct. So a use variance would be a use variance is when specifically Oh, here.
So this table I'm sorry it's small. The X means it's not allowed. Cannot do it under any circumstances. And that's where we are. meaning a a use variance. If this was um down here, these are all the commercial zone, the commercial uses
in the commercial areas. Uh you can do all of you can do all of these uses. You see where it says P? That means it's permitted. Special permit is SP. So basically, you can do all of those there. Where it has an X in all the residential zones means you cannot do it
and you can't even get a you can't even get a variance for it. It's impossible. Okay. So, I'm just spitballing here. No, no, honestly, um I'm not kidding. The only way to operate this is to change the underlying zoning town meeting. Can
I use this as an example is in my precinct, precinct 2, when Tapleyville didn't come all the way back onto Pine Street that was um shot down various it's it's a mixed use area
although it's residential. I think it's I think we're in R1 in precinct 2, Pine Street, but there's Yeah, but there's the overlay of that the Tapleyville, which is an extreme, right? Which so which isn't doesn't go as far back. So, we were um there was a property there. I forget the number, but it abuts Rebecca
Nurse anyway. Um they were granted although they're in a residential area, they and he does operate a commercial business there. He was granted a special special permit. special permit to have additional businesses be able to operate
out of those buildings. So what what's the difference there? Because it is an R1. The the long difference is that that so pre prior to zoning prior to 1940 that was operated as a commercial property. I believe it
was for uh you know off the railroad it was like coal but it was it was an industrial commercial property prior to zoning. Yeah. It was a fuel company I think. So then and then it got blessed after that through a variance process at the time and then since that time since it's already been now operating for well
over 120 I think it was in starting in the 1880s 1890s so it been operating for 150 years there would all do is modify a a process that happened there. I told Melissa as well that if she had been operating prior to zoning this would be able this would be a pre-existing
non-conforming use. She'd be able to keep operating. That's not the case here. Um be yeah. So it certainly happened after zoning. Okay. Okay. That was my only question. Thank you. Okay.
Um the gentleman with the white shirt. Not but yeah. Hi. I'm Brian Nadong. I live in Ames Remass. I just have one question for Brian. You said earlier that she had a complaint and that's why this
is all this is why this all happened. And you very well know that there's many many other of these businesses in the city. All you have to do is go on Facebook. It's blatant. Many me a lot. I could go on there right now and call up a place and have my dog over there
tomorrow. So what I'm asking you is the only way you'll investigate is if you have a complaint, right? You don't like do any research, go on Facebook, the town thing, and just look and say, "Look at all these things here." You just go on, you just wait for a complaint. Is that
correct? We we do not we do not try to find people to bust. No. No. But when you have one like random complaint, then you go full force. Is I mean, no. We No, we write we write letters. It's it's that's what we do. We get it. We get we
we get a complaint, we write a letter and say, "Hey, if you're doing this, this is this is these are the rules. If you're not doing this, you're good. And and we actually didn't think much of it. And again, as far as our enforcement officer goes, um Brian, I mean, you can
you can you can agree or disagree. Um he goes out and he's looking for violations and he does it on a consistent basis. Does he go out and look? Is it just out driving, right? It's not like any act or anything. Yeah. So when we have we have a a list of active violations that he is
out monitoring he monitors those on a weekly basis. Yeah. So but again if even even for Melissa's business if he drove by and he saw her out with one dog that that is not going to um tip him off that
there might be something going on. And usually when when he goes out to investigate things, especially in residential, it's because in a residential zone, it's because someone has contacted the town and said, "Hey, this is an issue and this is why."
That's the only way you guys investigate anything like this is if you get a complaint. Basically, that's it. No complaint. They can keep the business going. Well, again, like No. So, we kind of figured from this that we're going to probably have to be writing a lot of letters, right? We're fully aware that
of of what this means. However, all we are doing is enforcing the laws. You want the laws to change. Let's change the laws. But this is the job that we had. But you want to change the laws. That's easy. I know how to do that. But we can't change. But we can just we
can just um interpret and enforce. That's really all that we do here. Do you have any other questions? Thank you. Okay. Um, the woman in the blue shirt. Good evening. My name is Kelly Russell.
I live at 8 Rocky Hill Circle. I'm in a different neighborhood than Melissa. Um, I'm behind the high school. Um, I've lived there for about four years. Uh, my partner Justin purchased our home about sevenish years ago. And Melissa has watched our yellow lab buddy for those
seven years. Um, he is probably one of uh the most important family members I have. He's like another child to me. I have two stepkids. They love him dearly. He he's spoiled Ryan at our house. Uh he sleeps
in the bed with us. They sneak him the kids sneak him food from the table. He goes on walks every day. We take him to Home Depot. You get the picture. In addition to that, I'm a very self-aware worry wart. I worry about Buddy. I worry about every member of my
family whenever I'm not with them. But let me tell you, when Buddy is with Melissa, I don't have to worry about him because I know he's getting fed on time. He's getting the right food. He's getting the right amount of food. He is going outside whenever he wants. He's
being watered. He's having fun with the other dogs that she has. Um, he even sleeps in her bed. Sorry, Melissa. Um, my point is that even though I'm a huge worry wart and he is a family member to us and another kid to us, I
don't have to worry about him when he's at Melissa's. However, I have brought my dog to commercial facilities on the very rare occasion that she was not able to watch him. And both times he came home sick. He had a terrible cough. I had to take him to the vet and get him on
antibiotics. It was horrible. He kept us up all night. It was like a big like whooping cough. It was horrible. Not once has he gotten sick at Melissa's because she takes care of the dogs and she doesn't have 20, 30, 40, 50 dogs
running around, you know, getting each other sick or, you know, doing whatever. Um, I trust Melissa more than my own family. I've had family watch him again on the very rare occasion that she was not able to and he was left home alone
for eight nine hours. It happened a few months ago and it was horrible knowing that I was far away and couldn't get home to him. What did Melissa do? I'm texting her about it. She runs over to my house and lets him out and make sure he's fed, make sure he's able to go to the bathroom.
I would like to ask all of you genuinely, how many people do you have in your life that you could call at the and they would come over at the drop of a hat to let your dog out? I mean, he's he is like a kid to me. And I can tell
you how many people are on my list. One, and she's sitting right there. No one else. I've I've asked other people who might live a few minutes closer, "Nope, I can't. I'm busy." Nope. Sorry. I have things to do. Never with Melissa. Never. Not one time has she told me no, I can't at least come over to your house and let
him out. Not once. So again, I understand there's laws. I I get it. But like Brian just said, you there is power to change the laws, too. So I'm really genuinely hoping that you can make that effort and find it within your heart.
She's a good person. She really is. And I think I mean everyone here has has said that. I I don't think that's in question right now. I think we all know that Melissa is one of the best people I could have watched my dog and one of the best people. She's a friend. She's not only my dog sitter, but she's become
my friend over the last four years. Um, so I just think it's wrong um that she could potentially lose her business. Um, you know, she's a hardworking single mom. She deserves the opportunity to legally operate her business and I would love if you could all find a way to make
that happen with her. Thank you. Thank you. Um, the woman in that the striped dress. Uh, my name is Vanessa White and I live in Beverly. Um, I've been sending my dog
to Melissa's well dogs over time for 10 years and I might get sad actually. Um, so last year when I in February of 2024, um, I was in Italy for two and a half weeks. I know it sounds rough, but um
she was watching my 11year-old dog and he had a slip disc. What we thought was a slip disc. He couldn't he lost mobility in his leg. And Melissa brought him to the vet. I wasn't here, right? Melissa brought him to the vet with my mom. My mom who does not like animals
and like has a vet Melissa on text message. And they took him home and like she put him in the crate so he could get better. And like I I knew I didn't have to spend the money to come home like you know 5 days early because it was a
something you could manage with rest and Melissa I knew would take care of my dog like it was her own. And then a few days later she found him. he wouldn't get up and um it turned out that he had a burst tumor in his spleen and Melissa was the
one to take him to the vet and when he would had 12 hours left to live and I had to fly across the country or fly across the world to be back in time but that's the kind of like dog sitter that she is right you're not getting that when you bring them to somewhere else
my dog sleeps in her bed same thing it's you can't have 20 dogs all sleeping in her Even though that might be some people's fantasies, but um I just want to that's like my personal story about Melissa in terms of like you just you that's why I bring my
dogs to her is the I have I have one that goes to her now and say dogs plural because of the past. But I agree I the I laugh when you say that you can see it from the road because there's no way no way that you can tell that she's running any kind of like because her fence her
fence is very high. I want to say it's like 8t, 6 feet. It's like tall, solid. You can't see anything and there's never any noise. Um, I do want to point out like I know you said you're going to send out letters to people. Like there's a huge gig economy right
now, right? So Airbnb, I'm sure you guys have problems with that in town. Maybe, maybe not as much. Um, Rover, like like I don't think you're on Rover. I don't know. But like Rover is just a way for everybody to hustle on the side and take care of dogs. Like I could sign up
for Rover and start ba and start taking care of dogs. Anybody can do that. And so Rover is just like literally go online. It's like a dating app for watching your dogs. Like go online and find anybody. So you probably have a hundreds of people in your town doing
that same work. Hundreds. What I'm what I at the end of the day, I'm a business owner. I own a grocery brand. We sell in stores across the country. And I we built our business, my sister and I, going around and selling our perogi at breweries and frying them
up. And I dealt with a lot of local towns. And what I found is that we say pursue the American dream, build a business. But local towns and governments are standing in the way.
They are standing in the way. And that is not your fault. That is decades and decades and decades of laws. But it is I have found that local towns and governments have made and I'm like very liberal but in this
case it's like they make it hard for people to have businesses. They make it hard. You are deciding tonight not about just a zoning law. You are deciding about someone's livelihood. Just to be very clear here, the question about whether you've considered going to
get somewhere else, another commercial business, that is like it's a reasonable question, but it's also a ludicrous question because that is like a crazy investment for this woman who has a very specific need for with her father and in her home and everything like that. And
she does not run that. If if she went to a commercial facility, she would lose her clients because there is a reason why we send them to her with her sleeping in a big slumber party with the docks, right? So, that's like not a question. It's not reality. So, you're
dealing with someone. You're not just setting You're not just saying a we're going to enforce a zoning law. You're basically telling her that she can't earn her money this way. She's going going to have to go do something else. So take that seriously because we need
to be better as a country in supporting entrepreneurship as a country as a local level and it starts at the local level. That's all I have to say. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Anyone else? Um the um the gentle the other gentleman in the
white shirt. Hi. Yes. My name's Ed Nolan. I don't live in this town. I live in uh Lynn. Uh, Melissa watches my baby. It sounds like here nothing's gonna be done. You guys
already made up your minds. It's a zoning issue. You mentioned that laws can be changed. Where does she go from here? Because losing her as a uh dog sitter is not reasonable to a lot of us.
A reasonable change would be to the use table. I think there's a I think the a map change is a very tall order. This is also a tall order, but it's pretty much the only way if we change the are in the residential districts, you could change those to special permits so that at
least there's an avenue that uh the zoning board could say no that's too many dogs or let's like they'd be looking at floor plan like they'd really do like an invest like a real deep dive into it. So, but that
that would allow anyone in any residential district. Again, it would have it would be a special permit, but that that would probably be if my the only one of the best ways to probably get what you need simply because a map change is frankly just not going to
probably not going to happen. This is also tough, but you can start making this argument that there's a there's a case where there's something that's not a commercial. It's it's really a residential style whatever you're you know but the idea is that how
to do it you change the top row of the X's to special permit. That's one way that would allow someone to at least apply and then the zoning board would be able to make a case to say whether or not they think it makes sense or not.
Um, that's probably the only realistic change that I I I mean I think you you guys are very well worse very well verssed in this as well. I would I think the map change would be a lot harder and it would impact too many other um too
many other people's um property. So I agree. I think it's it's that um it's the use change instead of the map change. Right. Instead of a instead of not being allowed, it would be allowed by special permit. By special permit.
So, what about a permit per dog? If she's only doing six and the thing is four, can she not find a way to get a permit for two additional dogs? I mean, that would be through the ZBA. So, it's basically anything more than than four, no matter what, you're still in front of ZBA anyway. But this would just allow
you to apply. Right now, you can't even apply for a variance because you can't do that there. But this is how to change it. We changed the use table and it would you you would say R1, R2, R3. All those top ones right there, all those X's would be SP for special permit,
which again would allow someone like you or anyone else to apply to potentially get something that looks like a commercial kennel even though it might not be, but then they would be able So anyone would be able to apply then in any residential district. So, you're
going to be fighting that for the people that don't want doggy daycarees in their neighborhood for whatever reason. But that is the only that is your best avenue and it is it is a tough one, but that is probably your best. I just ask up at you have to go up to
the microphone and then after you're done with your question, the woman in the back who has the blue shirt, you can you can comment and then you can go last. Just a quick question. Sorry. So, how would she is that you you all who have that power to do that? That goes through um town
meeting and that happens twice a year. Correct. Typically, when's the next one? Probably February. Yeah. Even though there's six months left in the year. Well, it's May and February is when we typically do them. Okay. So, until then,
what are her options? Just to have the four or less dogs at a time? I mean, because again, like you're speaking about people's livelihoods. We have to vote here, so we don't really want to discuss what her options are um really until
like we vote. So, um who's next? The the woman in the blue shirt in the back. Good evening. Christina Tenny, 29 Braymond Street, Danverse. I'm not going to be labor it. We have a legal issue versus, you know, something that's very
heartfelt. Um I have a rescue. He's nervous. Um, I will not put him in a kennel. I've had him, uh, Melissa, watch him for the last five years. He sleeps in her bed. I think there's a bigger issue here now. But he loves her. He
runs in there. He's very nervous, but he runs in there when we pull up and um, she offers a viable service. And I do think that this is a bigger issue in town. So, um, I I know you're probably going to follow the law tonight. Um, and
that's understandable, but I I think if anything good could come out of this is maybe follow this process here and look into alternatives. Um, it is her livelihood, but her ability to run her business affects all of our lives, my
life. I'm a single mother. I work full-time. I have this dog. Um, and I will say, too, that um I' I've had her for five years, and I might use her maybe six or seven times a year. I don't know, give or take what's going on in my crazy job. But strangely enough, I have
never when I've dropped him off or picked him up, I've never run into another client in that driveway. I've never not been able to pull into her driveway. It's it's um it's kind of interesting and I' and I've always
thought that um she provides excellent care and um I don't know I just want to speak on her behalf and I'm hopeful that from this this meeting that you can find a solution for her but for others that are looking to offer a service in the
town of Danver. So thank you. Thank you. Joanne Mcuchi, town meeting precinct 2. Is there I hope there may be a way since this possible solution has been discussed right now that perhaps the
board can consider when they're voting tonight to maybe continue this issue until a resol a resolution that can help Melissa to keep her business and then
hopefully then apply for the special permit. that until then that she until there's a final decision made that she can continue her business as you know there's there was no notice given it was said cease and desist she
wasn't I don't think even given 30 days you know so years what excuse me this has been going on this has been going on for three years yeah three years okay so um what what is the penalty if she doesn't cease and desist just out of my
curiosity all zoning uh enforcement orders are have the ability to be fined at most $300 per day. Okay. Thank you. Um, so I'm hoping that maybe perhaps the um board can
um just continue this issue until town meeting can I know I'm getting a smirk but you know I know because there's a lot of lives impacted here and you're weighing the law and I know it doesn't come up too much but you know you're
weighing the law against a personal hardship and I know when people come up in front of the board for a finding or for a variance, they have to prove a personal hardship for a special permit, whether it's the planning board or the zoning board. I
think a personal hardship has been proven by not only Melissa, but but of the people that and and especially the dogs that rely on for her care. So, I'm hoping that you can just continue this issue until more information can be
found and maybe Brian Cassidy can come up here and explain exactly what he saw from the road where there is I mean I I have to just be honest. I'm not a client of Melissa's. My dog is not a client. Um
I just know where Melissa lives and there is no way from the road you can see into her backyard. It's a solid fence. It's a solid house. It's a ground driveway. There's many trees. There is no way. So that makes me highly
suspicious that that was in his report that he saw all these dogs. There is just no way. Okay. All right. So I hope the board can continue this and allow Melissa to operate while this issue is being continued and looked into more by the
town. Thank you. Thank you. Um I I I think we have to close the comment section. Um Madam Chair, I would just I would interject that unless it's something new. I think we've got a clear picture here. It is kind of new. All right.
Quickly up and then do we have anyone online who wants to speak? Okay. Someone in the front row. Okay. All right. And she's new. So 189 Sen Street. Um I may be wrong in this but uh the zoning board
has uh you entertain a variance to the zoning rules to property boundaries and things like that. Is that correct or am I wrong if I is there don't you get a variance if you want to have a different setup? Um yeah I mean there are certain
situations where things like that would be a variance. Okay. You come in you ask for a variance. So in this case, why can't we have a variance in terms of the number of dogs based on a hardship on this particular case? It won't be long lasting. It won't be forever. It'll be
as long as she can handle dogs. I can I speak to that, please? So just so you know, a variance, if you we grant a variance, it stays with the property forever. You could have 50 owners in the time it that variance will always be
there. So somebody could have a kennel of 50 dogs. So it's it's tough to it's tough to grant a variance for something like that. And as we said, we we can't grant any use variance in residential. So it's like the double whammy. Um
there's a girl in the gray shirt. If you have something quick to say, hop on up and then we will end the comment section of the meeting. Hi, my name is Jaden, 184 Center Street. Um, I'm speaking not only as a community
member. Excuse me, your last name, too. Le Point. Okay. Um, but as the daughter of a single mom who has spent over a decade running her small homebased pet care service, it's never caused any issues. No noise complaints, no traffic
disruptions, just honest, dependable work that's helped feed our family, pay the bills, and get me through college. Okay. Wasn't supposed to cry. Um, I wouldn't be able to do what I'm doing right now. I'm getting my masters. I'm
becoming a child therapist. And none of that would be possible if it wasn't for this business. Um, I'll skip all of the redundant stuff I wanted to say, but with respect to all of you, I believe the role of public service to should be to support community members who are working hard, contributing positively,
and causing no harm. and shutting down the only source of income for a single mother over a zoning technicality. While many others, as we know, are doing the same thing without issue does not reflect that mission. Um, and maybe that's not your mission. But I think
it's really hard to ask who this is actually serving. Is this really about protecting our town or is it about someone needing a win? Because from where we're standing, it feels like you guys are now deciding the fate of families who have been here for generations. people have who have done
nothing inherently wrong, who have contributed to this town for decades, and now they're being the ones told to prove themselves. So, I really hope even though it seems like you all have your minds made up, I'm asking you to look beyond the paperwork and to consider the full context, think about all of the
people that this impacts and ask yourselves, does shutting this down truly reflect the kind of town we want to be, one that supports hardworking families or one that turns away from them. Thanks. Thank you. Okay, so the comment
section of this applicant meeting is over and we are now on to deliberations by the board. So with that said, I will go first to John who is he still there? Thank you, Madam Chair. Yep. Can you hear me? Yes, we
can. Okay. Uh thank you. And uh you know, it's very clear to me uh that Mr. Nardone uh runs a very uh passionate business that serves a purpose. Uh it's clear to the people that spoke tonight
uh the the clients that she uh engages with. Um however, you know, that's not what we're here to decide. Um and I really do take exception. And I feel like the planning department is being
beat up um by what they're there to do. Uh we don't go out and and seek these problems out. Um you know, this is this is really a question. Has the planning director or building inspector or
enforcement officer errored in their ruling? and it's by Miss Nardone's own admission that she is running a uh a business in a residential neighborhood. It's not allowed. I do believe there are
options for her. Uh one would be to rent out a facility, not as ideal as running it out of her home, but it's clear to me she runs a quality business and people would follow her wherever she goes. And I think that's a great thing and it's a
uh it's a great um honor to her. However, um you know, this our our board, this zoning board, you know, we get a clear picture of this neighborhood and in this case her clients from the people who speak tonight and it's clear to me she's
not a bad person. We're not here uh nobody's questioning that. But we are here to rule on whether the enforcement officer errored and you know we don't have an avenue. I think there's been some confusion here where she could
have filed for a variance or a special permit. Our town bylaws do not allow that currently and the only way to change that is through town meeting. The zoning board does not control that or even initiate that. So that's with your
town meeting members, that's with the selectmen, and that's with the process. I think someone got up and spoke, well, why is there only a meeting next February that, you know, if we want five town meeting members a year, then that would have to get changed through the
right avenue. So I'm in support of the decision by the planning department. I think there are some other avenues for Miss Nardone to continue to operate her business. So, I don't see any avenue that the zoning board can do anything
tonight to uh, you know, make a special exception or not mean people. Um, you know, if somebody wanted to run a machine shop uh in a residential neighborhood, it would be a way different discussion tonight. Um, and you know, we it's clear, I mean, people
love their animals. There's a lot of passion about something like this, but our hands are tied. And until this changes to our bylaws or initiation through town meeting, there's nothing this zoning board can do. And so I will
vote to uphold the decision of the uh enforcement officer. Thank you. Thank you, John. Um Kevin, um like John said, uh we're here to determine if there was an error in
zoning enforcement. Uh and so considering that I think there's two places to make an error, an error in fact or an error in error in law. Uh I don't think there's a dispute about the facts. I think uh the applicant and uh
town staff agree on the facts. Uh in terms of law, I believe that the zoning enforcement officer was correct about the law as well and uh the use table and how the property is zoned. Um, I am not voting tonight. U, so I will I
will uh not say how I uh not say how I will vote because I will not. Um, but I I I do not believe that the zoning enforcement officer has aired. Uh, I do want to echo the comments that it is clear that this business is uh beloved
um by its its many clients. Uh, and I agree with the comments that, you know, there there is a new gig economy out there and and in some ways maybe we should recognize that. Um, but I do not
believe that this board has the has the power to to do that and um, working with staff or the planning board might be a good start uh, if uh, the applicant wishes to see a change in our bylaws. Thank you. Um, Ken, thank you, Madam Chair. Um, I mean, I don't think
anybody's disputing what a great person Melissa is and dog care person. That that goes without saying after talking to all of you. Um, that being said, like John Ber said, you know, we're handcuffed by the zoning laws. This it's
nothing we can change. It's a town meeting change issue. So, I have to go with the zoning enforcement officer. Thank you, Ken. Um, so I I don't think this would even be before us if we couldn't make a
decision. So it's not like we're handcuffed because why is it here? So we can make a decision whether to agree or disagree. So I I disagree because excuse me because there there should be some
wiggle room in here. I mean I don't know why what mechanism could we use? There's probably not one that's in the law right now. But I believe there should be a mechanism to use in a situation like this. So I mean I I feel like the
totality of the you know all the facts all the circumstances and I think one complaint in 10 years and we really don't have I mean it it is one complaint in 10 years. I think that's a pretty good record. So I I mean
I'm for not uh I'm I'm against a violation. So I'm for the applicant. Technically it was not a complaint. I want to make that very clear that no one actually complained about the business. They just said that they think they are
operating. So no one said that there's there was a pro there was a no one said that there was a problem with with the business. So there wasn't a complaint about the business. It was just a complaint that a business was operating. Right. Right. Okay. Thank you. Um, Brian
Becky, um, I think it's a it's difficult situation and I totally sympathize with the situation. Um, I wish that we had been talking about this in 2022 when this first came up. Um, and maybe we
could have had a solution by now. Um but I feel that we have to support um the building and the zoning enforcement of person and um I think we need to make some changes because we have um people
running dog daycarees all over Danverse and uh you're not the only one and we know that and uh I think we need to look at this whole situation and um come up with a solution. So that's I would
support the decision. Um Chris, uh thank you all for what you said in support of Melissa. Um just like Kevin said, I also am not voting tonight. So I'm not going to voice yay or nay on
either. Um although I do second what Becky just said. I think this this could be something that needs to be looked into um for your assistance. As we see, it has put a daughter through college and
it's your livelihood. So, whatever can be done to streamline the process, we'll do our best. Okay. Finally, me. Um, you know, a as as
um John started and Ken followed um coming in front of this board with um a violation means that we can either um uphold his decision or we can overturn it. In this case, as Kevin said, the
facts aren't on your side and neither's the law. So unfortunately coming in front of this board, there's really nothing we can do. We can steer you in the right direction. I think the use variance would probably be the lower bar for you to hurdle, but that means that
you're going to have to convince residential and in all three districts, residential um you know, members of the community that this would be a good change. And again, I I think everybody would applaud you. you, these people
love you and they think you do a wonderful job and I'm sure that you do, but that doesn't mean that people in the community um would want anybody running a dog care business in their neighborhood. So, again, I do think that that's the the easier hurdle, but it's
still going to be a hurdle for you. Um and again, I I have to vote to uphold um the decision by the enforcement officer. And I do want to say once again, our enforcement officer, Brian um Cassidy,
uh not only is he a great guy, he's very diligent and he he will go out of his way to help people in whatever situation that they're in. So I don't want people to look on him as somehow, I don't know,
not doing his job or not doing it fairly because that's not the case at all. So, um, with that, do I have a motion? Want me to read it? Yeah. Oh, yes, please. I will. Um, I make a motion to
grant the appeal from the decision of the zoning board officer that would allow commercial kennel operations to continue in a residential zone. I don't think that's do then have the vote. And Madam Chair, point of clarification. I think we are denying the deal. Yeah. So,
that's what we're talking about. We're gonna have to change the language or either that or we have to vote. No, just that's what I'm saying. Yeah, you could just have the vote still. Yeah. Okay. Read it again. Just so All right. Make a motion to grant an appeal from a decision by the zoning enforcement
officer that would allow commercial kennel operations to continue in a residential zone. Okay. Um vote no. Um any so we just do in favor and against he already anybody anybody
in favor? I'm the applicant. Okay. So you're in favor? How many opposed? I'm opposed. I All right. So four opposed and we have two.
Okay. The language doesn't match. Well, it it does. It's just the flop. It's just the flop. So, in other words, you voted for it and we voted against it. Shouldn't it have language for the cease and desist order? Because that's really what we're doing.
She, right? She filed the appeal. So, it's it's on her appeal. It's not on his order, correct? Correct. Okay. Okay. So, yeah, you you you voted to grant the appeal to her, right? And we voted no. They voted no. Gotcha. We're voting to
uphold um the enforcement order. Okay. All right. Is Sycamore the next one? Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Ready? Yes. Our next case is two Sycamore Street. This is zoned R2. uh
requests a finding for front setback encroachment 25.4 ft where 30 ft is required and a variance for side setback encroachment 11.9 ft where 15 ft is required uh in order to build an
addition to an existing single family home on an undersized lot 10,010 square ft where 20,000 square ft is required. The request is made by uh Dominic Marba Jr. Docket 25-5104.
Did I say your name correctly? Okay. [Applause] Good evening. Uh my name is Dominic Malerba and this is my wife Diana. We are the homeowners of two Sycamore Street. We are seeking relief for a front setback encroachment of 25.4 4 ft
and a variance for a side sep encroachment of 11.9 ft in order to build an addition to our existing single family home. This would include a master bedroom, bathroom, closet, and a second car garage. The reason for the addition
is to add additional living space and storage for our growing family. We have also spoken with a majority of our neighbors and all have been supportive of said variance. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Um Chris, why don't we start
down there with you? Uh the only question I had was Oh, hold on. Let me bring up Brian, was the plan for this in there? Yeah. Yeah, it's uh
proposed plan. Okay. Or did you want the 3D? Nope. I got it on. Um, so my only question to you, the addition now I know you are looking for two-sided garage, two two bay garage.
Yes, sir. Is the garage going to be wide open front to where does I guess my question is where does the garage end? How deep is the garage going? Uh, so if you can see so it will be more or less a
one and a half. One will be more or less for storage. Okay. So, it'll be actually a onecar garage, although you will see two from the street. So, will that onecar garage be on the right hand side? Yes, sir. And will it be two cars deep? Uh, just one. Just one.
Okay, that's I'm all set. Thank you. Okay, Becky. Um, so the it's going to still continue to be singlestory house. Yes, ma'am. Okay. And can you just tell us a little bit about your family? Uh, this is my wife, Diana. Uh, and we have
a daughter who's two and a half years old. Uh, Vienna. Oh my goodness. As well as a dog, Banks, and we're hoping to have more. So, okay. That's why we're here. Um, and I don't think I have any other questions.
I have no questions. Ken, I think my questions have been answered. Thank you, Kevin. for the side setback uh that you're requesting. Um normally there would have to be something in particular about the
lot, the soil, the topography, and your lot seems to me to be a very standard kind of squared off uh I don't know if you're technically in Woodvail, but but Woodvail style lot. Is there is there some hardship that prevents you from building up rather than out in a way
that would comply with the zoning laws? Uh more or less a financial hardship. Thank you. That's all that's all my questions. John, thank you, Madam Chair. Um, I don't see the setback of 25.4 ft on the layout. I
see 20 I'm sorry, 25.6. Is that cuz there's an opening thing? Yeah, I'll get it. Yeah, it is labeled on the plan here at 256. 256. Yeah, that was your error. But which relief are we
seeking? Oh, that was a uh personal error for me, I believe. Yeah. All right. As long as I guess it'll lead into So, the 256 is correct. Uh yeah, what you have on the paper is correct. Okay, good. That's important. The plans are correct. Okay. And uh can I ask does
that include the overhang? Yes, that will include the overhang. So, if we grant relief to 25.6, Six. That will satisfy you. Yes. Not 25.4 is the application. Ask.
Can I ask what's the square footage of the current house? Uh, right around,30 ft, I believe, with no basement. Um, and is the shed uh there by permit? Is the shed still there? Yes, the shed
is still there. And is it there by permit? Uh, no, it is not. It's an 8x10 shed. Yeah. So, it's under 200, so you don't need a permit. But there and um uh I think was it I'm sorry. Is it Kevin
Army alternate? Yes, Kevin is the ultimate Kevin. Sorry. Um he alluded to the side step back a little bit. Um and I believe the side step back is uh 15 in R2. Am I correct about that, Brian? Correct.
And what consideration was given to meeting that 15 where you'd come in three more feet? Uh it would just not a lot for enough room for a master bedroom. It would make the room just around 8 1/2 ft with wall
thickness which would be fairly small. Okay, that answers my questions. Thank you. Um, so I'm I'm looking at um the architectural designs and I thought I
heard you say that it's really only even though you have two garage doors, it's only one garage bay. So it is the other just storage or is that another room? It's uh it's our current garage which is not the full depth of a garage. So you
can't actually park a a car in there. So So what So it's just storage. All right. So, it's just going to be storage. Yes. Okay. All right. I don't have any other questions. Anybody from the audience? Sorry, Madam Chair. Oh, if you have another question, go ahead. Additional.
Um, what is the uh square footage of the addition? [Music] Livable square footage. I believe it's under 700 square ft of actual living. So, so this will bring the house to 1730
approximately roughly. Very good. Thank you. Okay, Madam Chair, through you one more question. Yes. Is the final fence staying where it is? Yes. Okay. Thank you. Any other questions from the board?
Any questions from the audience? Um, anybody online, Brian, who has any questions? Okay. All right. So, back to the board to deliberate. Chris, Madam Chair, sorry, one more before we deliberate.
Yeah, just one more before we deliberate. Um, could I ask the applicant, is there any consideration to uh removing the garage door? I guess I don't understand the point of having a second garage door. If you can't park a car there, why not close it in and and
uh have a different look, I guess. I just it visually looks uh better with having the two and it will be still I believe it's connected as if it was a two-car garage. It's just the depth won't allow for you to park a car if that makes motorcycle. Yeah, you could
put a motorcycle or whatnot in there. So, it will be part of the garage. Okay. So, you didn't consider having just one single door? No, because there is that's where the current garage door is. So, we'll be adding to the right of So, so Okay, you're just expanding.
Okay, very good. Thank you. Okay. Um, deliberations, Chris. Um, as you heard before, I am not voting tonight, but knowing the Woodveil area, knowing starting a family, knowing the
size of those houses, um, I do see what you're going after and what you do need in order to make your family bigger. And I can see the financial hardship for going up rather than going out. Um, so although I am not voting, I would be
in favor of both things here for you tonight. Thank you. Thank you, Becky. Um, I um understand the problems in this town with trying to you can't really sell
your house and buy a new one because there aren't any new ones to buy. um we just have such limited inventories and we want to keep our young families in this town. I think it's really important. So I think that we need to uh
try to accommodate our young families and help them uh expand their houses so they can grow. Um the side setback the 11.9 where 15 is required we often um
would go halfway. So 12 ft versus 15 isn't a problem for me. And the front is acceptable. Um I don't really want to design your um garage. Um I know John has his comments, but um I think uh it
would it looks fine the way it is and you should design it the way you want. So um I would be in support of this um so that you can uh continue to live in Danvers. Thank you. Ken, I'm also in support of of this. Um,
you don't even have a basement to like build down there. Um, and I'm fine with the garage doors, too. I mean, you have to you might want to put mower lawn mower or something. You got to open up to get it out and stuff. Yeah. So, I approve it as is. Thank you. Yep.
Ken, thank you, uh, Madam Chair. Um, I think this is very, very low impact to this neighborhood. Um, obviously the no neighbors have come forward to say they're against it or anything like that. So, I'm in favor of this. Kevin, um, I am not voting tonight. So,
take my comments for, uh, for what they were, they're worth, which is very little. But, um, I will say in terms of the finding that you're asking for, I don't have a problem with it. uh in terms of the variance that you're asking for, I do not think you have technically
met the findings that this board is supposed to reach in order to uh grant the variance and that there's not something particular to the lot which requires a variance. It's more of a desire of how you want to uh expand your
home. Uh and I do not believe it is necessarily perfecting the spirit of our zoning of our zoning laws. Thank you. Thank you. Uh John, uh thank you, Madam Chair. Uh I see this as a very modest uh
approachment and uh I agree with Becky. I mean, it's you know, it's it's so difficult to um you know, find the the right matches given home prices, uh inventory availability, and interest rates. So,
uh, this owner has decided to try to expand this small home that doesn't have any storage. Um, so, uh, provided, uh, we make the correction of 25.6 ft versus 25.4,
I would vote for this. Uh, thank you. And yes, um, I would vote for this. I agree. I think it's um it's it's a minimal um infraction and I also um I also think
that um you know the design is great. I I think it will look nice in the neighborhood and I also think it's great that you reached out to all of your neighbors and they're all on board with this which is always a good thing. So I will also vote for this. Thank you. So
is that SEC fact 25.4 four or 25.6. They said the plan is correct. So 25.6. So it's 256. Are you sure? Just want to make sure we read it in correctly. Um I make a motion to issue a finding under table two of the zoning bylaw to
cons. Did we vote? Did we? No, you're doing the vot. You're doing the motion. Yeah. Yeah. First and then the vote. Like we Okay. Yeah. Sorry. It's been a long night. Yeah. Motion to issue a finding on the table two of the zoning bylaw to construct an addition that will be located closer to the front property
line than permitted as of right 25.6 ft where 30 ft is required in that the proposed extension alteration of the use is not substantially more detrimental than the existing structure to the neighborhood.
Do I have a second by Becky? All in favor? Oh, all in favor? I I I. Any opposed? Congratulations. Good luck. Thank you guys. We got to do the variance still. We got to do
uh and make a motion to issue the variance under table two of the the zoning bylaw con to construct an addition that is proposed to be located 25.6 six ft from the property line where 30 ft is
required and that the proposed addition uh alteration of the use is not substantially more detrimental than the existing structure to the neighborhood. Adjacent properties would not be adversely impacted. The reduction de reduc reduced dimensions would not be
detrimental to the public good and would not substantially deviate from the intent or purpose of this bylaw. Second. Becky seconds. All in favor? I. Any opposed? Any opposed? No. Now,
congratulations and good luck. Thank you all. Thank you. Good luck, guys. Thanks for being patient. I got nervous first. I know. It's not typical. I thought I'd be more than I can. Good luck.
Okay, our final case is 68 Locust Street. This is zoned R2. Request a dimensional variance for side setback encroachment 5T with 15 is required for a new twostory accessory structure. The first floor will be a garage for
vehicles and the second floor will be a protected uh use accessory dwelling uh unit at 795 ft. Uh the lot is non-conforming due to size 9,623 square ft where 20,000 ft is required
and frontage 44 ft where 125 ft is required. Uh the request is made by Stacy Bernson dock at 25-5105. Good evening. Hi, my name is Stacy Bernson. I am the owner of 68 Locust Street. Um, we are looking to build a
twocar garage. And the lot, as you can see, it's it's very oddly shaped lot and it's very small. Um, we're looking to build a two-car garage. We're trying to utilize the hill a little bit because it may look pretty because it's grown in, but it's kind of useless because it's not livable. We don't use the area at
all. Um, so we're doing a 30x 35 foot garage, two-car garage with a 795 foot square foot livable area in the accessory dwelling unit. Um, my mom has been living in New Hampshire and has recently sold her home and is moving
back to the area. So, this is going to be her home. So, um, I'm and this was much longer than she anticipated this evening. So, um, and that is that is everything. Oh, we're I'm sorry. We're looking for
dimensional relief on the setback on the side. So, the side closest to 66 Locust Street, we need 15. We have five. Um, part of the reason why we kind of chose that is it is clo it's where the driveway is going to be close to the driveway. It's right behind our current our neighbor at 66. It's behind his
garage and also there was an existing wall that was left from previous garage. So, we kind of left picked that as our pivot point. So, that was why we had looked at some other options. The neighbor at 70 Locust Street was not crazy about us doing anything on that side. So, we're trying to keep it over
to this side where 66 Locust Street is actually he was amendable to the to the plan, I believe. Okay. Thank you. Um John, uh thank you, Madam Chair. Uh through you, I would like to go to Mr. Zelli.
Yes. Brian, do uh I believe we what is uh the standard allowable sides of a garage standard dampers according to our highs? Uh so this uh in the R2 you're allowed
for a garage it's um 15 15 by what? Oh, I thought you were asking for a setback. You're saying square footage. Yeah. Or uh Chris, you might probably
build more garages. I was going to say 24 by 20. Something like that. What would you say is 24 by 20 something? 24 by 24 usually. Yeah. Yes. If you're looking to get two garage bays in. Yeah. Two bays. This So the the
largest we allow by right is 40 by 30. This is 35. This is 35 by 30. So, it's within allowable dimensions. Okay. Uh so, I guess uh and in and
staying with you, Brian, because the uh the plot land doesn't show the actual address. So, I just want to be clear. This is 68, correct? I think. And to the right, I'm I'm assuming lot 125 is 70.
Okay. So, yeah. 70. Yep. And and lot 127 is 66. Correct. Okay. I don't know why the Usually the addresses are on there, aren't they? I don't know why. Um sometimes. So, I guess uh to the applicant, um did you consider uh a
slightly smaller garage so you could um fit in uh the setback or at least get us to, as Becky mentioned before, to a halfway point um of the setback.
So it if we did if we went to 15 ft that garage would actually be in the middle of the yard. Yeah. No, no, no. I'm not asking that. I'm just asking if you considered a smaller garage than 30 by 35. The reason that we did the 30 by35
is yes, we wanted a twocar garage. Second, we're planning on putting the stairs to go up to the apartment on the interior so we don't have to worry about snow removal and she will also be safe. we're planning on putting an electric chair just as she does get older, it makes it easier to get up the stairs with and with all that stuff. So, that
was actually why we chose to do the 30 by30. It also um under the accessory dwelling unit law, it allowed her to get the square footage to get it. We're trying to get her as big a unit as we possibly could so that she could she's moving from a house now to an apartment and this is about half the size of what
she was used to living with. So, okay. And you'll have to forgive me. I'm actually away and out of town. So, usually I would do a site survey or a site visit. I wasn't able to look at your property. So, does this property have a garage currently? No, it does
not. There there had been one previously, but I couldn't find anything. We kind of looked through the satellites. It's been a long time since there's there's been one out there. We we found the foundation when we had had a pad put in for an RV. Um it was just it was just crushed stone. And when they kind when they dug down to level it out
a little bit, it actually there are two walls there from a previous garage, but it was obviously a onecar garage. It was the old So, and you're not looking to do any uh curb cut change to the street, meaning the driveway where it is now is what you
were planning to stay with? Yes. And the shed that's on the property, uh, is it conforming and is it there by permit? It did not require a permit. And I believe it's a 10 x 12, so it was 120 square ft. So it didn't require a standard. Yeah.
Very good. Thank you, Kevin. Uh I did take the opportunity to drive by um today. So from the the street visual and looking at the plot plan, I think I understand basically
uh where the new structure uh would go. I do not have any questions. Thank you, Ken. Thank you, Madam Chair. Um, can you explain to me a little bit about all these retaining walls in the back? Are they all coming out? It looks like the
garage is like on top of them. Obviously, you've got to move those. So, the the plan is the foundation is going to be built into the hill, sorry, the back side of the garage. So, that's going back in. So, where those reta we have kind of tiered retaining walls. Unfortunately, there's a lot of water
that comes from up above. We kind of put these retaining walls to kind of slow things down, put the water to slow the water and all that good stuff. Um, but as you go up, so it is going to be taking probably most of them down on the left hand side. Uh, the architect architect did include it's different
shades of gray. I think the lighter gray is where a new retaining wall would be go being added to what's already there. Um, so he tried to use the existing what was already there. Just trying to kind of build it into what's what we will be building. So, we're going to lose about half of it. If you looked at it, if if
you looked at the property, there's sort of a little round area. So, most of that is going to be gone up to that point. Okay. Um I think that's all I have. Thank you, Ken. Um so, so the area to the to there's a left to the lot that that's not even
being used, right? Is that where the orange um tape is or there's like an orange? There was a house there that burnt, right? There's had a house fire. Yes. and it just got demoed. So, they're not going to complain. No, no, it's very weird
of that. Um, yeah, it it makes sense. Plus, you want to Yeah, you want to maximize what you can for the uh living space for your mom and stuff. So, I understand the situation. So, I I have no other questions, Becky. Okay. So, um
the stairs. So, you said there are inside stairs, but there's also outside stairs. Is that for the second means of egress? So, you have to have both. Yes. She keeps telling me how silly it is, but yeah, there will be a door that goes out the back and so if for some reason
there was a fire in the garage, she could go right out the back and come out. So, they they need to have a second egress. That's my understanding. According to the law, they needed a second egress. Okay. Um and the utilities and everything. Um maybe
through you, Madam Chair. The Yes. Is this separate? Is this part of the new zoning? Correct. So, this would have I need help then. So, all the the building code doesn't distinguish between accessory dwelling units and regular dwelling unit. It's just dwelling units.
So, this requires separate utilities because it's a separate dwelling unit. So, um they are aware of that. Okay. Um but yeah, so it would be separate trenching for for all your utilities. Oh, and Okay. And is there a size
limitation for the ADU? So maximum of 900 or half of the principal unit whichever is smaller. This particular case is 794 which is right around 50% I guess of the main house. So it was the uh the biggest that they could do by
right or biggest they could do period it's 79. It's 794 because it's 50 because it's 50% of the principal unit. Okay. the main unit, whatever that square footage is, the gross fort area, the a the ADU can't be more than 50,
can't be more than 50%. Okay. I didn't do the calculation, but they're saying it's 795, so that's okay. Yes. Okay. The h the house is 1594. 1894. 15 square feet. Okay. Um Okay. So, you're putting all separate
utilities in there and is the garage going to be heated and everything also? Yes. Okay. All right, that's all I have. Thank you, Chris. I think all of my questions have been answered other than the fact of
are you going to be able to back out of your garage and turn around and face Locust Street or are you going to have the problem of trying to back onto Locust Street if you're coming out of the garage? With the width of the garage, there should be ample room to back out of the
garage and pull out. Although I've become very adept at backing into my driveway because we've been living there for 20 years. So, um so yeah, but yes, there should be enough room to back out and be able to turn around and go out. Okay. All my questions have been answered. Okay. Thank you. Um actually,
I have a question for you, Mr. Zelli. Um this is is this the first um case that we've had in front of us for one of those new um accessory dwelling? So, but they're as of right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is they're just asking for
dimensional requirement. So, there there are there will never be an ADU for the use right in front of any board. It's a protected use. So, the idea is that in any residential zone, you can do this up to 50% or 900 whichever is smaller.
Right? So, if anything, you're we're only the reason why they are here is simply due to a dimensional dimensional relief that they're looking for for the garage, right? The fact that they're putting an ADU there has should have no shouldn't have to do with the with with
the decision. It's a dimensional thing. All right. And then, so if this was an oversized one, so say it was 900, but but it it that would be more than 50%. They wouldn't they wouldn't they wouldn't be able, right? They wouldn't be able to do that at all. Correct.
Period. They would have to either reduce it or they wouldn't be able to do it. Correct. So there is no way to go over 900 and have it be considered a protected use ADU. What this h typically now what this is happening is when there's an existing structure that's already over 900 and they're like well
I'm not like what am I going to do here? They have to reconfigure things and sometimes there's no way to reconfigure it. There's just no way you're going to get a protected use ADU in there. We're find these be to be difficult. Luckily, they're kind of starting from scratch and they're just asking for dimensional
relief based upon the the squeezing of the lot. Right. But because it's her mom, if they wanted to, they could have come to us and asked for an efflua, an oversized one. Correct. But it couldn't be over 750. Right. Right. So, right. So, this they'd be for a special permit
anyway. But they decided to instead do the full. So to do an ADU is very very different from Oh no. Absolutely. Uh so they decided to do, you know, go the fully legit route for probably for investment purposes and many other purposes to just do it. Right. Right.
Right. So you can evict your mom and have there. Right. Um yes, John, you can ask another question. Yeah. Just a followup question on this and and I understand Brian's clarification that we're just here on set relief, but since
the word ADU came up, I just want to understand, Brian, so there's no avenue that an applicant can apply for a special permit or anything to go above that 50% number. Is that what you're saying? That's what I'm saying. It's I'm going to expand a little bit because
there's just been a determination that if a if a city or town does allow a special permit process for an ADU over 900 square f feet, then unless you write it into the bylaw, that same property
would be able to do a protected use ADU in addition to the special permit. So pretty much no municipalities are allowing um uh are allowing that as far as I know. I know a lot of municipalities are cooking
up bylaws. So there might be um I I know there's appetite for some type of a process to go over 900. It's the question of whether the state would consider that a protected use ADU or not. No one I think would want to say, "Yep, everyone can get two ADUs now because you once you get one over 900
and then then you could do one under 900." So that has not been determined. That's currently the way currently nothing. Currently the way our bylaw is written though, uh there is no avenue for any applicant to go over 900. Currently nowhere in Massachusetts.
Nowhere in Massachusetts. Okay. And then back to the EFLA point that Karine made, um, they could apply for an ELA over 750 via a special permit though. Correct. I mean, we've issued plenty of oversized eas and we're still able to do that.
Yes. Yes. Okay. Just wanted to make sure I had it right. Uh, thank you. Could Could I ask one more question if you don't mind because this is just making my head hurt now, so I I need to ask just to find relief. So if someone had an attached ELA,
is there anything that stops them from also applying for a detached ADU? No, nothing. It's totally by right. Okay. Thanks. This has come up. It's funny how some of these laws that they pass, they never really think of
all the ramifications of them. Massachusetts, just like just like many Commonwealths, are a collection of cities and towns that don't necessarily talk to each other. No, no, no. Absolutely. There aren't that many Commonwealths, though. Most of them are states.
Okay. Um, any other questions? All right. On to deliberations. John, I think I think I started with you, John. Uh, thank you, Madam Chair. Um I think this was more of a discussion of
understanding ADU um uh the but I think for the board as well. Um I I see this as uh you know I don't I don't like the side step back honestly at uh such a short distance.
I'm really on the fence on this but I I do understand it. Feel like the garage could be reduced uh somewhat. So, I don't know. I guess I'm going to hold my vote and see how the rest I go with this.
Okay, Kevin, any comments or I think the lot's burdened by the hill that it's built on. It's um [Music] So, there's there's a some case to be made there. think uh they are I also
don't love the setback, but I think it might even be more than the setback of the garage that it'll be directly next to. Uh I know that what's on the next lot doesn't necessarily matter in the conformance of of of this lot, but it occurs to me that where they're citing
the garage, it will bother no one, I think, uh because it'll just be directly next to another detached garage. Um, those are those are my thoughts. Okay. Thank you, Ken. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Um, I agree with John on, you know, I would like to see the size smaller, but in looking at that plan, the only size change I could see that would would work was to make it not as deep, you know, reduce the 35. So, that's not going to
buy us anything on the setback, I don't believe. So, I'm okay with this. I I'll vote for this. Ken, it it is a missshapen lot. Um, so you don't have a lot in I mean, you don't have room in the front. More in the front. You have
to go in the back and do everything. It's sort of triangular. Um, I I would vote for this. I I think it's fine. Yeah, Becky. Um, I I like the location. Um, it's sort of backtoback with the
other garage. Um, so, um, the only thing that I would consider is if it could be further back, but that hill is so steep and you're going to have a challenge as it is. So, um, I think the location is is fine. Um, I know we're throwing
around a lot of terms about EFLA and ADU. And I thought that maybe just um to say quickly, EFLA was the zoning law that was passed by the town and that we've been going by for years and ADU is
the new law that's been passed by the state. Um, which has totally different criteria. So, um, you're going under the new law, the new ADU law, and I think you might be the first person um, and,
um, first of first person in front of you while for a project, but we have we have turned out a several permit permits, right? You know, the the goal is to create more housing in Massachusetts. Um, so for the audience that uh that
they know that and uh I would be in favor of this. Chris, I like how you have the garage off at an angle and I don't think it's going to be completely visible from the street, especially when that other house does
get built. Um, and I also don't think as much as I'd like to see it smaller, shrinking it down to 24 feet, three feet on either side doesn't really gain much. Um, if I was voting, I would be voting in favor for this. Thank you. Thank you.
Um, and finally, me. Um, yes, I I would be in favor of this as well. I kind of agree with John's point. Um, but I also I also think, you know, the the the lot is a we is a weird lot. You have all of
those issues with water runoff and everything kind of up above you on that hill and where that shed is is is kind of very close to where the proposed garage is. So, it's not as if you're shoving it all the way over because you want to have like a lot of yard. That's
that's not your um that's not your goal here. And I also agree, you know, the the garage on the other property is kind of up against the property line as well, so they're kind of back to back. Um, so yes, I would be a yes. So John, we're
back to you. Well, based on my fellow board members comments, uh, I can see the logic here. Um, so I will vote in favor. Thank you. Okay, perfect. Um, I have a motion. Yes.
I make a motion to issue a variance under table two of the uh zoning bylaw to construct a detached structure that is proposed to be located 5 ft from the side property line where 15 ft is required and that the proposed extension alteration of the use is not
substantially more detrimental than the existing structure to the neighborhood. Adjacent properties would not be adversely impacted. The reduced dimensions would not uh be detrimental to the public good and would not substantially deviate from the intent or
purpose of the spy law. Do I have a second? I'll second. All in favor? I I any opposed? No. So passes. Good luck. Thank you very much. Thank you. You were
very patient tonight. And I also would like to say that Brian Zelia was very helpful to us as we were doing the application process. So I want to give you some pause. I'll take I'll take it. Motion to adjourn. Second. I'll second
it. All in favor? I see you in July.