I'm going to call the Tuesday July 1st 2025 meeting of the Esau Meadow Planning Board to order. Those in attendance are Bill Fansa, Denver, Cassandra, Sher Swallow, Rob Throw, and planning director Rob Puchilla. Thank you, Rob.
Uh, first order of business is the approval of the meeting minutes of May 6, 2025 and the meeting minutes of May 20, 2025. Do I have a motion to approve? So moved. Do I have a second? Second. Any
discussion? Hearing none. All in favor say I. I. The next matter is the reorganization of the planning board roles. So we are to elect a chair, vice chair, and clerk for the period of July 1 of 2025
through June 30th, 2026. I nominate Ros Denver for chair. Second. Second. Okay. Any discussion? Absolutely not. All in favor say I. I. Anyone opposed. Okay. Uh I nominate Cassie Chair Swellow. Of course I butchered the name
again. Uh as vice chair I second that. Any discussion? Hearing none. All in favor say I. I. Uh clerk I nominate Rob Terrell as clerk. Second. Any discussion? Hearing none. All in favor? I. Uh we also then have committee
assignments. So I would like to uh nominate Bill Fana to continue on the con community preservation. Thank you. Community preservation committee. Do I have a second? Second. Okay. Any discussion? Hearing none. All in favor
say I. I. I. Okay. We will take up the uh position for the Pioneer Valley Planning Commission when Mr. Punderson is able to join us. Uh Pete Punderson sends his regrets. He did have knee surgery today, so he is unavailable for this evening. So, Mr. Oh, and I would
like to recognize that Cassandra has been reappointed for another 5-year term. We're very thankful for our town manager, Tom Christensen, for doing that. So, uh, Mr. Terrell, first order business. Case site-2025-02
request for site plan review approval to construct a 4,837 uh 4,837 square foot agricultural commercial building with 81 parking spaces at 896 Summers Road, assessor's parcel ID 95-34-0
located in the residents a zoning district. Applicant, we are a farm LLC, 896 Summers Road, East S, Mass, 01028. Do I have a motion to open the public hearing? I'll move. Do I have a second? Second. Uh any discussion? Hearing none,
all in favor say I. I. I. Uh I'd like to turn it over to our planning director, Rob Wila. And if you could please uh kind of tell us how we got here, what we're going to be discussing. Yeah, absolutely. So, the
applicant um here today is requesting a petition for site plan review approval for a 4,000 roughly 4,000 foot building that is going to be used for agricultural purposes, 896 Summers Road. Um it's in connection to an existing
agricultural operation on sites. Just to remind the board and the public about what this specific petition is, site plan review. It doesn't really focus on the use of land per se, but it focuses more on the building, the layout, parking, and traffic on site. And the
chair wanted me to kind of discuss with the public and the committee about certain things that can be discussed at site plan review hearings and things that really shouldn't be discussed. And so the category of items that can be discussed during this public hearing today include the overall site layout
which includes landscaping and lighting, parking including the number of employees and seat counts in relation to the parking lots and the parking setup. Location of buildings and relevant features, bulk and height of said buildings and structures. Dimensional
standards including setbacks, lot coverage and other related characteristics. utilities, traffic in relation to the use as well, storm water infrastructure design and mitigation and signage.
So, typical items that are not allowed to be discussed and should be dissuaded from include the operation of the use itself unless it's in connection to any item in the allowed categories above that I just mentioned to you earlier. Whether or not the use is allowed on the
site, you have to remember that site plan review is a byright petition. So the merits of the use itself are not in question today during the discussion in this public hearing. And one other factor to keep in mind as well for special permits it's typical to put a condition for hours of operation for
anything on the site. You cannot do that for site plan review. And Mr. Chair, that's all I had for that part of it. Did you want me to turn over to the applicant to give their presentation or did you want me to discuss the supplemental items that were received uh earlier today? The supplemental items
that were received today. Absolutely. So, uh, per receiving from the applicants council, uh, I believe it was this morning at about 8 in the morning, there were a few items that were submitted in regards to theation of 896 Summers Road site plan review, including
an updated project narrative, which has an addition that shows track changes in red of the new language, a traffic management plan, which had previously been requested by the applicant that has been sent to the planning department and included in the board's packet today.
finally updated the permit application report with red edits that's included in the board's packet to account for these changes. Uh yield my time, Mr. Chair. So, uh there has been bantied about the use of the uh the allow or the use being
anticipated to be on the property is allowed because it may be designated an agricultural property. Correct. And that's that. Yes. So the doper amendment uh applies in this situation to a protected agricultural use as well as a business on site that's related to that
use, but that is not something that's up for discussion in this public hearing today. And if anything, that's going to come up later on in the process with the building commissioner when they go for their building permit and for their certificate of occupancy down the road during the building commissioner's zoning review of the project and the
site. So it is not incumbent upon this board to determine whether the use proposed is agricultural nature and then the use they propose is under the agricultural use. That's correct. That's a
determination of the building inspector when they go to speak a building permit. Correct. All right. So um we asked Rob to do that just to give you a little flavor of what we can and cannot address here. Um,
this is my third year in a row of chairing and I just start off each hearing uh with the following. We are not Washington DC. We are East Long Meadow, Massachusetts. We will have a civil discussion on the merits of the
case. Be no yelling. There will be no screaming. There will be no insulting of individuals. You will address questions to the chair. The applicant is not required to answer any of your questions. If they do so, they can. If they decide not to, they
don't have to. If any of that uh if there's yelling or screaming or insulting, you will be ruled out of order. If you continue that behavior, you will be asked to leave the rope. So, those are the uh those are the way forward on how we're going to handle
this. So what we normally do is we ask the petitioner to present their their application to everyone and then we ask questions and then we turn it over to the public to ask questions or we hear from you on what your thoughts are
regarding the issues that Mr. Wila had mentioned that we can address. So I would turn it over to the petitioner disclose. Did you read it? Oh yeah. What's that? You want me to disclose the relationship? Oh yeah. Go
ahead. So for the board, I just want to disclose that I have worked previously with Fitzgerald and Rob Le's group as well. I don't find any conflicts here, but if anybody does, please make it known. Okay. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Good evening, members of the board. Um,
as many of you know, my name is Seth Stratton. I'm an attorney with Fitzgerald Law here at Center Square Nissan Meadow. Um I'm pleased to be here tonight on behalf of the applicant. I'm more pleased to be here tonight than my prior appearances for I think this will
be a more fun and less controversial um discussion. I'm here with Rob Lec from LC and Associates who I know you're familiar with. Jason Titso um who's a representative of the ownership of the applicant and can answer any questions
and my colleague Rachel Fancy. Um I want to start off with a few introductory remarks and and thank you um um thank you Rob for that introduction and we had a productive discussion this morning. I want to emphasize that this project continues
the revitalization of the historic forum state line farm. now bladed and previously used um in some respects as a dumping ground. Uh the applicant has already cleaned the site, I believe over 50 dumpsters um of grass removed and is
re reestablishing a working farm. To recap here tonight, we're seeking site plan approval. Um and in that regard, we're seeking approval of waiver requests with respect to uh a full traffic study, a storm water report, um
hot surfacing and signage, which I can touch on a bit um later. Uh I want to clarify um one of the reasons for our involvement. It came to our attention that there was some confusion amongst various stakeholders as to what um the
intended use is and what it is not. And I understand that this is discussion is not about the use but I think it's important to understand the use in connection with some of the criteria that um Rob mentioned in terms of um especially traffic and other site plan
related matters. It's important for the board to understand what the intended operation is. Uh so we submitted some clarifications to our project narrative uh in an attempt to correct and clarify the project scope. We understand that the board recently received this um and we
do apologize for the last minute nature but hope that it'll be helpful in moving forward. Um we also as Rob mentioned submitted um supplemented with a draft significant event um traffic management plan which uh Mr. Le can touch on as
necessary. Um so this is an agricultural project. We do believe that it falls under chapter 48 section 3 the dober amendment. Um the property use will include cultivation of apples, berries,
pumpkins, herbs and um oh I should mention I believe Mr. Collins should be joining us um who's also represent representative of the applicant and can speak to the um farm-to-table aspect of this operation. One of the um key
elements of the farm will be using the existing shed for a uh to c cultivate spices for a spice shed. Um the um applicants have determined that that would be a um interesting uh and
potentially lucrative aspect of the farm which is to have homegrown spices that would be um available for sale to um customers and local restaurants. etc. Um, there will be an apiary which, um,
as came up this morning, I had to Google it, but aviary is for birds, apiary is for bees. So, apiary is for bees. Um, there will be an apy um on site, a farm stand, and then in terms of um programming, um, the intent is to have
um, agurism events, an educational program, as well as some farm-to-table events. Envision a um farm-totable wedding event. Um a farm-to-table meeting where there's um catering at the event that focuses on on the
farm-to-table aspect. Um what is what is it not? It's not a restaurant. It's not intended to be a restaurant. It's not a brewery. It's not intended to be a brewery. Um the site improvements proposed on the plan uh
include primarily um a barn um for to be used for the sale of produce as well as events, a gravel parking area and landscaping. Um the barn will be 84 ft by 76 ft and will have only a limited catering
staging area. uh no full kitchen or uh and not appropriate therefore for restaurant use. Uh I think at this point if we have uh Bill are you available and can you hear us? If you could just speak a little bit to the farm-to-table
mission and and your passion for that I think uh it'd be helpful. Go ahead, Bill. Can you guys hear me? Yes. Can you uh just let the audience know? Can you hear me? Okay. Excellent. Would you let the audience know who you are?
Absolutely. My what your address is. My name is uh William Collins. Okay. Yes. My name is William Collins. I'm a resident at 409 William Street in Long Meadow, Massachusetts. And I have been the owner of Center Square Grill
for 11 years right in East Long Meadow. Okay. Is all that coming through? Okay. Yep. Yes. Okay. Perfect. All right. So, my my background in East Lawn Meadow is I have owned CSG for 11 years. We've
employed thousands of people over those 11 years. Um, this project for me has been, you know, more of a feather in the hat project. Something that I can work with solid partners on to create and revitalize a farm. something that can
benefit all of our local businesses through creating uh produce that we can use in our separate businesses, but also something that would create an agurism experience for children to be able to come and learn, for people to be able to enjoy the space, also to not have it
turn into another housing development in East Lo. Uh we felt it was important to keep this on a farm. So, where does that all start? We started with the existing apple trees. We uh we restored those apple trees, trim them back, and got them back to a place where they can
start producing fruit. Uh as Seth said, we intend to uh work with UMass, and we intend to put a trellis apple orchard in uh to the likes of about 600 trees, which would likely fruit about 20,000
pounds of apples annually. We don't expect to sell 20,000 pounds of apples annually, but we do expect to sell some on the farm, use some in our businesses, and also donate some of those through a partnership that would help uh you know,
with people that are food insecure. In addition, uh for us, I've been a member of the the uh 4 committee at the Big E for 10 years. I've been the farmers market liaison for all of the farms that
interact with the farmers market at the Big E. And I've been the demo chef for the Big E to promote local agriculture within the New England region for all 10 of those years as well. Most of it on a volunteer basis. I will disclose I have been paid from time to time to do
certain things for them. But it's been a uh it's been an excellent relationship and it's one of the things that fueled my passion for agriculture in in our great area of the country. So in addition, currently at Center Square Grill, I have a farming relationship
with Austin Brothers Valley Farm. I actually currently have four steer on pasture there that we raise for our restaurant and for the use and sale at Center Square Grill. Uh the local raised beef is fantastic. It's a wonderful
product. It's something that I can have raised to the standard that I see fit. It's something that I would tend to use for our farm-to-table mission at the farm as well. Um you know, I think that this project is an exciting project. I think that, you know, the ability to
grow not only apples, but raspberries, blueberries, pumpkins, give the public a place to come uh gather, have farm-to-table events is something that's an exciting thing that no other farms are really doing in our area. And for
us, I think it's it's already light years different than it was when we first started the project. But imagine being able to to go down and buy your local honey that was raised only a couple miles from where you live. Buying some of our local pumpkins that are
raised right there. I think it really is a gamecher on 83 where it used to be a dumping ground. And so I know that uh you know my teammates on this are super passionate. You know we've even talked about trying to create a little bit of a
corn maze for the fall. I don't know that we'll hit corn, but Jason's already been working on other options for that. And you know, this whole project, it's like Seth said, it's never been intended to be a brewery or restaurant. The last thing I want to do is have an a 5,000
foot restaurant in East Lo. I've already got one of those. Very happy with that. And for us, we really do want to create an environment that is a great spot to gather that ties in my passion for agriculture and my partner's passion for
agriculture with products that we can use in our businesses and also create for the public. Questions for Mr. Collins? I have two questions. one. Yes, sir. What will be uh what will you retail on site
and then it's about a 4500 square foot building you're anticipating putting up and what will that specifically be used for? Okay, let's start with the first question. So, retail on site and again this project is a project that has been
taking shape and not every iron has been detailed out. However, uh the list of products that I would intend to retail based on growth crop season and uh other variables that could happen would be
this, but not limited to apples, raspberries, blueberries, pumpkins, spices that are created and grown in our greenhouse and then privately labeled with the Hawks Landing brand, honey. We would also intend to potentially do uh
educational tours with children around the apiary, but also maybe with some of the other crops as well. Um, we would also potentially seasonally have some kind of a corn maze or play structure that children might be able to enjoy when on the farm as well. In the 4,500
foot building, we intend to host community events. Community events that could be many things. Okay, the event could be a Lions Club dinner. It could be an ERC5 chamber gathering. It could be a a retreat to discuss things. It
could be a nonprofit event. It could be somebody's wedding that they want to have on a farm. Um, I don't necessarily know that we have an exact market that we're targeting for that, but we do know that that barn would be a great gathering space that would be used for
community events on our farm. Okay. Uh before I open to the public, Mr. Shatton, do you want to add anything? I would like to turn over to Rob Lec just to um briefly touch on the um traffic aspects. Um
you probably sit or if you're going to use the board stand. Yeah. Very good. Uh good evening everybody. For the record, I'm Rob Lec Associates. Um we did the site planning for the proposed project. Um the subject property
contains about 8.89 acres or so. Mr. Lec, what are your credentials to to be doing this? I'm a registered landscape architect in the state of Massachusetts. I I have I am president Barbec Associate multi-disiplinary firm that um employs civil engineers, architects, registered
land surveyors, environmental professionals. Are you an in traffic engineer? No. Well, I do have a traffic engineer on our team, uh, subconsultant, Bowman Associates, who you guys are familiar with, and I think they actually work for the town. I do have their report.
Great. So, I'm here generally to talk about the the site development project itself. If there's questions related to traffic, I can certainly refer to the traffic report, but I am not a traffic engineer. Okay. So, the subject property, there's a about a 4,500 square foot building that's proposed, as you're
aware. Um, there's a parking area. We're requesting a waiver for the parking area uh so that that could be a gravel area kind of consistent with a farm kind of this grassroots operation that's being proposed. Um that would be approximately 61 parking spaces per your regulations.
59 parking spaces are required. Um we're showing two curb cuts accessing that parking area. The reason for the curb cuts is we believe that this is the best circulation pattern. As you get a little bit farther down the road, it doesn't make sense to have a curb cut. We're utilizing kind of two existing generally
existing curb cuts. One is rather wide that would be reduced down. All of the access would be um 24 feet wide. Uh particularly the two curb cuts would also be 24t wide and the standard parking spaces. In addition to the general parking we have included in that
number of 61 parking spaces. We have the um proposed handicap accessible spaces which need to meet with I21 CMR as you're aware uh which is the architectural access board regulations of handicap accessibility. So these parking spaces would be handicap
accessible. All the parking in general would be hard pack gravel. Uh these parking spaces would need to be make sure that they meet the accessible route requirements. all of the accessible walkways from these park district need that which is a maximum of a um a 5% run
and a maximum of a 2% cross. So pretty flat in general. Um a run can be slightly steeper. Anything greater than that would be a ramp. In this particular case, there's no ramps proposed. Um the access to the building is generally to the front or sorry the front side of the
building. There's also a walkway around the building. We're showing two patio areas that would um accommodate the building. Kind of more of an entry patio in front and then a more of a um we'll call it you know a usable patio area
that people will filter in and out. There's an overhang on this portion of the building here. There's a third curb cut which is be strictly for um access to um the service area. This is kind of the service side of the building. So this would be a service area access
again also gravel. You're seeing some plantings that are proposed. They're in a grid pattern because the these are would be the orchard here. There's also some required uh as part of the cleanup operation. There was some impacts to some of the buffer zone to a bordering I'm sorry to isolated
um actually wetland and intermittent stream. We're showing the buffers there too. We're outside of those buffer zones. Um so we are not subject in this particular aspect of the project. We're not subject to the conservation commission. We are however filing for a restoration plan for some of the work um
to be planted in some of the plantings that we're showing adjacent to the farm pond that exists there. Um so any questions generally on the site plan itself? Yes. So on Aninsley Road the
first two parcels are those homes? Yes. And I guess the question then would be, so it appears that you have plantings behind at least one of the houses. That is correct. Why are they not taken all the way down to to Shaker? Well, these
were an orchard. This is shown schematically. They're going to probably plant a lot more than we're showing. We didn't want to overshow um what might be planted, but per Mr. Collins's comment, um we're showing much fewer plantings in that orchard than he's calling for. Um,
so there is the possibility that that orchard could be carried down towards the towards Summers Road and even further. Um, depending on how the space is utilized, they may that might grow. And again, no restrictions related to planting in the orchard. But my my sense
is that that will actually be much more much larger than we're showing. And the second question is on the placement of the building. So as you further get into the Connecticut line, you you go back towards Scantic River. Yes. So why is
the building so close to Shaker and not you're not utilizing Summer? Shoot me. Thank you. Uh thank you. Uh you're not moving the building closer to the Scantic River where there appears to be a lot of space. Good
question. So the Scantic River is a regulated area associated with the Scantic River. There's a 200 foot riverfront area. Also, the pond itself and the intermittent stream that leads from the pond uh also flows into the Scantic River, which is also a regulated
area. Those are the main reasons we're not utilizing the rear portion of the property. Imagine the Summers Road frontage is the most viable kind of point to access the property. Um, so we're trying to keep impacts that are required to kind of utilize the property
to a minimum and maintain as much of the property as a farm as possible. So, you know, so obviously this component of the farm is we're trying to reduce the overall infrastructure that we need to operate the farm. So, it's yeah, it's focused on summers.
Other questions before he continues? Rob, what's going to happen in that other three acres or up north there? Right. Because I see there's proposed apiary and that's about it. Generally, farming um don't need to adhere to certain requirements there. There while
there are provisions under the Weapons Protection Act for farming activities. There are also restrictions that also apply. So they would need to work with Alex from the conservation commission and anything that they do that's in jurisdiction either make sure it's exempt or get a permit associated there
with Thank you. Yep. Okay. So um there's a couple items and just full disclosure I am not a traffic engineer. Um but I do um have the report from the from Associates. Um, if you do have the report, the last page is probably the most impactful in terms of the
information beside it, which is the conclusion page. Um, so all Minnesota is has done a trip generation analysis essentially with this. They looked at the site. They've looked at the amount of traffic that is anticipated um in the
impact from the project. And I will be careful not to speak or um to their comment other than providing you the data itself. Um so at the time of this report there was 88 parking spaces. I think I just mentioned that we had reduced that just to feed on. Um the
building was shown in this report with about 5,000 specialty at the time which has been slightly reduced numbers are slightly conservative. Um that said, you know, I'll just read verbatim. I think it's just the cleanest way to do it. Based on the review of the available IT
data, that's the institute transport data, the project is estimated to generate approximately 308 vehicle trips, 154 and 15 exiting vehicles during a typical
weekday. The approximate 610 vehicles, 305 and 305, so 305 entering and 305 exiting during a physical Saturday. project is estimated to generate approximately three vehicle trips, three
entering and vehicles and zero exiting during the week pay morning peak hour. So very minimal with regard to the morning peak hour. Slightly more impactful would be the weekend I'm sorry would be the
morning peak hour against 9 entering in 20 during the weekend afternoon peak hour the approximate 116 vehicles trips 65 entering vehicles and 51 exiting vehicles during the Saturday
midday peak hour. The additional vehicle trips projected to be generated by the project would result in an increase of 6% or less to the weekday traffic volumes on Summers Road. Given the trip generation data documented within this traffic assessment, the project is
anticipated to have a minimal effect on the surrounding roadway network and that is verbatim from the traffic report conducted by Emily Buck PE of Bowman. You also share also u provided what
we're calling a traffic and management plan. Again, the facility is anticipated to operate on normal conditions um quite well. Um again, a very, you know, fairly uh minimal increase with the 6% that they talked about. Again, it's more of
potentially more of a weekend use than an afternoon afternoon use. So, it's not conflicting with the uh the morning peak hour with people trying to get to work. But that said, we do understand the potential for um what we'll call events.
There were certain events that might occupancy etc. So uh the proponent has gone and put together a very detailed uh in in cons consultation with our office as well as uh the their attorney's office Fitzgerald's office um put
together what we're calling a traffic management plan and the idea is that there are sections of this that basically pertain to how they would deal with certain types of events. Um it talks about the purpose and scope uh event notification and stakeholder
coordination um which includes uh reaching out to the police department, the fire department, the abutters. Um and the idea is to look at egress routes. So under number number three traffic management strategy we have access in each residence on-site traffic
control of the city agent required parking management on-site parking capacity uh view temporary overflow parking opportunities should that be applicable. Any parking layout revisions to normal parking conditions. Um
security or is it crowd anticipated crowd management? post event procedures and you know just a conclusion that describes that and then any traffic mitigation efforts for unplanned uh traffic events for example there is an
eventuality that happens uh that wasn't planned um the the idea behind this is just a boilerplate um guideline that could be utilized maybe included in a condition um and the idea would be that prior to events and I believe there's a couple time frames in here I think one
was um 21 days prior to an event and then 14 days prior to an event. Uh so 21 days they would notify Butters, notify the town u meeting with the fire department not less than 14 days prior to um an actual event. But again, I
don't want to scare people with the idea of an event. This was actually raised through a discussion with your planner who is looking for a comprehensive approach to this project, which is a good idea. We respect that completely. But so we put this, it wasn't put together by the proponent that said, "Hey, we're ready to have these big
events." That's not really the case. The case was in the event that this morphs into something else. Again, this is starting out as a very grassroots effort, um the farm-to-table idea. Um but we want to be proactive with the approach. So just for the people in the
audience and for me who needs it in lay terms. So significant event is you the the building size is unable to handle the size anticipated and it means that
there will then be outside activities as part of the scheduled event. Yes sir. So technically someone could put up a tent outside of the barn and you could have 150 people there as an example with the proper permitting. Okay. trying to make
the audience aware of what potentially you're planning. I don't mean to cut you off, but I think Bill Collins is raising his hand and I don't know if you want him to address some of these comments. Sure. Um, yeah, just trying to give the residents a feel for what is going on.
Sure. Thank you. Some of those questions you asked. I think they passed me in here. Can you guys hear me? Okay. Yes. Okay. I I'm sorry to pop in there with a hand raise, but I I did just want to address that. I think that we are
looking to get our building and site plan for the building approved at the occupancy that makes sense for our parking. The events that Rob is speaking to you about are not events that are planned. We have no plans for any major
events like that. And these would be events that would be outside the ordinary scope of our business that we would seek town approval for outside of our normal scope of operation. I just want to be abundantly clear that we're looking for a site plan approval for
that building and that occupancy. If we intend to exceed that occupancy for any reason at any time, we certainly would come back to the town and follow a special event. I want to be clear that that would be a special event guideline,
not an ordinary event guideline. So then uh process-wise, who do you see going to for that approval in the town? Town council, I believe. Yeah. Town council. Council.
Yes. No, that's what I would believe. In the traffic plan, the whole point of it traffic management plan is just so they have an idea in case those special events ever do happen for any reason. There's some sort of documentation that
we can rely on that they have to follow in order to prepare, plan and be accountable for how those events play out if they happen at all. So just just I like to just bring it back to me to understand it. your normal
retail and so forth and so on goes through planning board and then other events that are outside of the capacity of the building go to town council for approval just to clarify um I believe I
I think simplifying this a little bit I'm trying to simplify it if Yeah. No. And and and I I just want to say it one other way because I believe it will. Okay. If I were all of a sudden to operate a special event at Center Square Grill that was going to
have a 500 person attendance, my occupancy is 194. Yeah. Obviously, I would need to seek town approval to go above my occupancy. So, we're looking for a site plan approval for our current occupancy of that building. That's all we're looking for tonight. If and when we ever deemed that we might need to
have a bigger event, we would come back to the town for approval on that. Thank you. And just clarify, this is a draft um for for the the board's consideration and specifically uh the police department, the fire department, and the
abuters are on the notification list. If there needs to be another town department, certainly that could be included. Yep. Yeah. And and if someone's wondering why I'm asking so many questions, I want people who might be watching this on TV to understand why
we're, you know, why we're doing it, why we're figuring it all out. And I'm trying to anticipate some of the questions that you might have and try to get them answered before you have to stand up and say your thing. So, thank you. Yeah, I I don't want to over complicate it, but I just want to clarify. I think the the plan, and
again, is a draft plan. Um, if we were to seek occupancy for a special event in the building, outside the building capacity, I think we would seek to go to town council. What we're using, we're using the building occupancy as a proxy for the ordinary
permitted regular operation crowd. If there is an event that would have an anticipated three to 400 people attendance, again not planned, but we've been asked to prepare this. Um, in inside outside, we would follow a plan
that is in draft form that could be a condition of this approval. It doesn't currently say that we would go to town council to get approval for that event. It says we would notify police, fire. So, I just want to clarify that. um the
board could impose a condition or we could have a different plan, but that um town council is not currently in the plan for the special event plan. So then that just begs the following question. So and two counselors are here. Thank
you for attending. Um so I anticipate you know these outside events would have alcohol involved if it's a celebration of some kind. So that would require approval by town council on a one-day
event. Okay. Correct. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. One one last item chair. Um so we were coordinating um related to a storm the storm water you noticed this labor request. We have communicated with Mr. Burman from the engineering
department I believe um use storm water. There is an exemption provided in the stormwater regulations uh specific to agricultural use. There are very specific requirements that need to be met. Um we are aware of those based on the work with UMass and the work that these folks will be doing with the
state. Anticipate meeting those requirements. Um so in our communication with Mr. Berman um we had suggested potential condition. I do have a copy of the email and I think Mr. Willa I have it right here. Yep. Also have that. So um basically we believe that that is
addressed or would be addressed with the condition if the planning board was to include it. Um and then for some reason if that didn't get satisfied we was take a look at the storm water in future. Thank you. There's anything else from the petitioner?
The floor is open. Who would ever like to come forward? Please come sign in. Remember Mr. what Sheila indicated that there are certain things that uh you should really be focusing your comments on. I would ask that you please try to
stay within those guidelines. Hi. Hi, Lisa Adam. I live at 7 Anley Drive, the house most impacted by this. Um, I can appreciate that they're trying to improve the property because I've been looking at it since 2007. So, it's
nice to see improvements. What I don't appreciate is how close that building is to my property. I don't appreciate having a rose literally in my backyard. I was assured there would be three rows
of trees as a buffer. There's one. The last rendering I saw had three. So, I have some grave concerns that this isn't what I was told. I was told also the building would be much closer to the
original homestead. See the stakes from my house. It's much closer to my home. So, I would like to know why they felt it was so important to move closer to only homesteads and not shift over a little bit more. There looks to be plenty of room in
front of the parking areas where they could shift that over. So for me, this is quite distressing. So I have a question for you. Yes. So when you say you were told, who told you? I went to one of their first events in the winter and spoke to two out of
the three owners. Okay. And asked these questions because they had a different rendering. This is one that's different from the one that I had at the time. the parking lot was literally abuing my property. So, I appreciate that they, you know, made changes or whether they
did it on their own or because I appealed to them, I'm not sure. So, I appreciate that that's further away because it looked like in the original rendering it was literally on my property line. So, that I can appreciate. What I just don't is what I
see here today. Thank you. Who else would like to be heard on this matter? And as folks come up to speak, could you just write your name on that little form up there so we know who you are? Thank you. You don't have to put your full address there.
No. My name is Jeff Flesi. I'm going to butter to the property. I live on Forbes Hill Road. Um, first of all, I like to fluff myself up a little bit like they have already. I, unlike Mr. Collins, do live in town. I
live on the property close to what's being built. Been there for since 2007. Been a lifelong resident of town since uh I'm six approaching 65 years of age. 64 years of age. So, I have a little stake
in the town. I like to see what goes on. I've seen projects fail. I've seen projects bloom. Some of them are good, some of them bad. And I just like to know, we're here tonight to discuss certain things. And what's confusing with the audience is that we cannot bring up the usage part. I I'm I'm
learning to understand that, but they've explained their usage to us. And I think they're kind of putting the horse before the cart, so to speak, or the cart before the horse, where they've telling us what they're kind of going to do, but they don't have really permission to do what they're going to do, but they're looking to at least get permission to do
this part of it. And if they get this part, but they don't get the used part taken care of, this is all for not. Am I right? So I I'm I'm confused. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm confused. part of the audience is confused and I ask you that you don't take any actions on anything brought forward tonight because of the
fact that if this mitigation plan which I happen to run across today the farm ad hawks landing traffic m management plan is that new this morning it's the first that we've seen it I don't think the people behind me who have been in town probably just as long as I have their
lifelong residents are aware of this and if you read it kind of sounds like you know stuff that you plan for the big E Unfortunately, stuff that people live across the Big E. We're going to have traffic cops here. We're going to do this. We're going to mitigate traffic this way. Has signs up. And to me, I
don't think that's what we're we're looking to sit tight with in the community. How many significant events are they going to have here? They say they don't plan for any. I'm looking at this project here and they're going to sell berries and fruits and apples and all that stuff.
And I'm not here to knock them, but I'm going tell you right now, there's a lot of money invested in this property from all the investors that are involved. And I don't think they're going to make their money back by selling apples, berries, pumpkins, um, substantially. So, what I think their their game plan is to have those
events, make them more so, um, relatively available to the community and profit off of that. With that said, is that a land use issue? I don't know, but I think it has to be brought up to let everybody be aware of what the possibilities are. They've admitted the
possibilities. They've said there's no restaurant planned here. I don't know. One, they're going to be serving food. I I would expect down the road there's going to be music. I expect a band of some type. I expect noise from it. I
the lighting we can talk about tonight since that's part of the um under your preview what kind of lighting they're going to have for their parking lot. Everybody's, you know, lighting's gotten better over the years, I understand, but it still presents a offshoot to the residents. Um, so there's there's
concerns there that I have. Uh, the dust the parking lot, it's gravel. Well, in my opinion, there's one reason why it's gravel. So, let the water drain through. You don't if you don't pave it. You don't need a retention pond. That's my guess. Okay. If you do that, we're going to have a dust problem on these hot summer days or even in the winter,
believe it or not. Dust from the land, farmland will travel. Um, so, uh, that's that's a concern also, the dust of having a gravel parking lot. Um, I've also, um, the trash that comes from the event. Um,
hopefully they would be, uh, if it was to come true, they would be able to monitor the trash around the surrounding property. Um I think the traffic mitigation alone is an issue with uh this project and I don't think it's fully thought out of the the study they did they provided to
us. I don't think it means doesn't really hold any weight. How can you tell how many cars are going to come and go from that facility? I I know that they're behind me. They're not saying this place is going to fail. So they want it to flourish. In order for it to flourish, you need customers. You need to have uh traffic. So, the numbers they
give you, I don't know if they could live off of those numbers, to be honest with you. If they're going to bring in the dollar that they need to turn a buck and I understand that's the uh that's one of the reasons why they're doing it. You wouldn't be doing it to sink money in. I don't think so. I'm I'm address
that issue. Yes. So, if it fails, it's on their dime. Yes. But yeah, but what are we left with? Uh an improved property. Well, he what if he what if they just abandon it and don't do nothing and we're back to what we had before, right? I mean, that's Yeah, I
mean, they don't get into business. Sometimes they fail, sometimes they succeed. And I, you know, could we be? Yeah, we'll see. But I hear a lot about the compliance with the Dover amendment. We can't talk about it here tonight, but at some point in time, who's going to
monitor their compliance to the Dover amendment? What town agency is going to do that for us? So that would be the building inspector/zoning enforcement officer that would have to enforce that. Would that be a yearly thing? Would that do you know off? I can't speak for I know you can't speak. I don't know the specifics on that, but that would be the
individual that would be responsible for it. Well, if they if they sat here before you and said, "This is not going to be a full-time restaurant. We have no intentions now or ever to be a full-time restaurant on a residential property."
that may put some ease to people, but um the end result is it they might just see the opportunity to continue on with their advent their venture here and make it more of a commercial establishment which I don't think and the zoning issues here. We're looking at residential a so I'm still kind of
popping the people behind me are scratching their head how this becomes a commercial venue even under the opence of the agricultural thing which they have not proven to be yet. There's not 160 apple trees or whatever they're saying out there. There's no raspberries
out there. Um, you can't push it down into the wetlands anymore to grow. Can you can you limit the planting of certain vegetables in the wetland area? Can you disturb that? I think their space is limited for all this. I just don't see it uh making, you know, they're they're push they're pushing the
agricultural part, but I don't think that's going to pay their bills. I really don't. I think it's more going to be um what it is. So, I'm I'm very concerned about this uh mitigation plan here. It sounds good, but it doesn't really hold a lot of water. Contact the fire. Contact the police. It doesn't hold doesn't really solve a problem that
people in the neighborhood are going to have. Traffic coming and going, parking anywhere. I'll just tell you how I feel right now. Yeah. I would not be in a position to vote for anything related to this right now at at this point in time.
Um, I personally am confused why they won't take the plantings and take them all the way down Anley as that woman had indicated. I just I don't see the rationale there. You've heard my question about the building. Certainly,
we can feasible move the the third driveway to be used for access to the building. We can ask that that be moved as well. Um, the other concerns I have is I would
think that this board would want to assure that there'd be no parking at all on the major roadway summers at all. How would we enforce that though, sir? So, you would know better than I for not putting you on the spot. No, but if
it's not posted, you have to adapt amendment. You'd have to post it. Let them know. You'd have to post it. And we're looking at residents looking signs up and down Anley. We have made recommendations, you know, in a number of occurrences, situations where we've made recommendations to the town council that they have adopted our
recommendations. The latest being with the construction of the new high school on Melwood Avenue. Might notice you go down Melwood, the first 200 ft, there's no parking on either side. So, town council can take our advice from time to time. Rob, do you want to add something? Yeah, I just wanted to touch base upon
the location of the building, driveway, and stuff like that. So they are constrained because of the wetland buffers. And I know they they can't really push it any more right than they have to maybe slightly, but I know the 100 foot around the pond and then 200 foot around the center of the of the creek or the river or the brook behind
it make it pretty confined to just that left portion of the property. Well, let's look at that map and maybe um you could illuminate. So the around the pond are the markings the slashes. Yes. Is
that the 100 foot limit? Uh so the I'll just kind of give everybody the overview. So there's a farm pond that exists here. Yeah. Okay. It's it's regulated. Okay. Um from that there is an intermittent stream. So we flag the bank of that stream. This line here that
wraps around those two resource areas is the 50 foot buffer. And then the outer line is the 100 foot buffer. But this is all within jurisdiction of the conservation commission. Not to say it's completely impossible to work in, but in order to work in it, you have to do an
alternatives analysis to show that you don't have a good viable alternative. So just give us a guesstimate. You don't be held to it. Y. So between the outer 100 foot to the uh to the building is how much? All right. One second. So there's
100 to there. Call that 200 and let's call it 250ish. Okay. And a building would have to I mean a roadway would have to be how far away from a building. Um there's no requirement then or by law. Yeah. The
road we have to actually be a certain distance away from from the actual road but not the driveway. Um but but just if I could to the chair no the discussion about the location of the building is a good one. Um first of all I don't think these gentlemen have any concern about
pl adding additional plantings on this side. So I would say that that's probably no problem. Um this act obviously you know we would not vote unless came back with a plan that show understood. Completely understood. Yeah. We're not we're not trying to force vote. Um, this particular access is just
for service vehicles. Understanding the concern, we certainly could screen that. Um, that said, the building location, if we were to push it, there's actually a grade change. For the people that live in the neighborhood, they know this. There's a pretty good grade change down to the pond. Um, if we were to shift it
this way, if you see these lines here, these are proposed contours. Um, we would then be pushing those proposed contours into the jurisdictional area of the conservation commission, which like I said is more impactful, um, less
defensive and also provides less area. The reason the building was oriented the way it was, it's the idea this side would kind of be the the front of house, right? This side designed as the back of house, so it's not bothering anybody. So
that the you know any sort of uh people mingling in and out of the building during during normal events patio here maybe walk on the lawn walk around general this area would be open with scantic that's that's the orientation and location. Thank you Rob.
How much space is behind that building from the the butter with the the driveway? About 100 ft from the from their property line to the build to the building and patio. Maybe we call it 65 to 70 to the driveway rough. Okay, got
it. Thank you. Thank you. I have a couple more quick ones. The lighting on that is there any representation of lighting or is after another stage? No, no, no. That's us. No, but is that another stage they're going to submit? like a phototric plan. Yes. I mean,
that's up to you as the board, but because they're not that close to budding households and the parking situation does have downcast lighting, it's up to you. All right. Yep. Thank you. Good. Yeah, we're good. And regulation
of trash pickup for the dumpster. Who this who or who? So, we can put it as a condition on how soon uh times during the day that it can be picked up. You can make that condition of the permit by the way. Yeah. for trash pickup and we have done that in a variety of other projects. Well, my my concerns is that
they're filing for this do amendment which limits what you can do and what the bylaws can do to them and that is something that I think the residents ought to be uh aware of that they are going to you are handcuffed a little bit by this farm. Um
so so the do amendment and I'll give a what I think is a concise and if Mr. Stratton wants to add to it, feel free. But there was a case many years ago uh that involved the town of Dover and placement of an educational facility and
the courts indicated that um a municipality, local municipality could not um could not prohibit the use of a educational facility on parcels in that
town. That has expanded. Yes. Over the years to include things like uh group homes, uh solar farms as we found out in Esau Meadow because we lost a case on that. Um accessory dwelling units, excuse me,
accessory dwelling units. That's the newest one. Um community uh what's the MBTA act? That's for transit stops. That's for transit. Well, I guess so. state has the state has encroached upon the ability of
local communities to make zoning decisions that used to be the purview of local communities. Right? I'll leave it at that. And it has to be a compelling public reason and oftentimes the courts get in the middle of it and they will say the legislature has determined that
that's a compelling public reason and agriculture appears to be one of them. How do I do Seth? Okay. guess. So, so yeah, so our hands are tied on a lot of stuff, but it doesn't doesn't mean that the residents don't have a voice in moving forward and and
and hold, you know, accountable what we have to where we're in our preview to do. So it is incumbent upon every person in town that if they see zoning violations or things out of the ordinary, it is
incumbent upon them to uh bring this to the attention of town officials because oftent times town employees are stretched thin and if they're not told by the residents that there's a specific issue and I know our zoning enforcement officer hears from me often uh about a
variety of issues um then things get worse. So, it's incumbent upon all of you to pay attention to what's going on and report it as necessary. And the signage is another issue down the road. They're peacemailing this together, I guess. So, signage is a later item.
Yeah. Because it's just being peacemeal down the road. They don't have an idea what they're doing with the sign. You I don't expect you to answer for them, but apparently they don't have an idea what they're going to do with the signage. I don't know. Right. I don't expect I'm just come through with this board. Right. Yeah. But as far as uh electrical LED lighting and stuff like that for the
signage, we Oh, that's a signage issue. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing yet. But they're allowed to design it later on if they wanted to. And if it's a significant enough change, it could warrant them further review with this board. But it depends on the type of sign they're proposing, whether it's a freestanding sign or if it's a sign of fix to the
building itself. It has power to it. Are they allowed to do that out there? Yes, they are. They just need the appropriate permits from the building department and the appropriate trenching permits etc. That's the next stage when they Oh, there have been some people standing up on I don't want them to get tired.
Well, can I just make a quick announcement too? So, all the documents for this petition are available on the town's website for folks in the audience and I do have business cards up here if you're having trouble find it. It's on the planning community development web page. On the left, you'll see a tab that says active case files. take you to
everything we have currently at all of our boards and committees. I can hand out business cards after the meeting. If you want to find those documents, please come up and see me after the meeting. Thank you. Man, we see your hands, Mr. Collins and Mr. K. We'll going to let a couple of the
speakers go before you. I'm uh John Dalton. I live at 37 Angelley Drive. I'm the newest one in the neighborhood. We moved in last year. Uh my property is right here. Um have a neighbor in between us, but
right now we can see clearly out to 83. It does look a lot better than it used to with the old house and everything else that was there. But they're showing the apiary right here proposed. It's actually currently right behind this
property right here. Um, two weeks ago, opened my pool. My son actually got stung by one of their bees. Ended up uh getting an allergic reaction. Had to have his wedding ring cut off his hand. So,
this here is currently not in the proposed area. It's behind their property, but this is still supposedly proposed. I' I'd like to see it be moved further away from my property line. Um,
I do have concern. They did plant a number of our varieties along this this property line currently. Um, some of them have basically died with the drought, but I'm sure they're going to be replacing those at some point. But
currently, until those grow in, there's easy access to the properties, easy access to the back for our property. I have a swimming pool in ground swimming pool all fenced in towards this area of my property. They're talking about having kids in the
backyard in the back. I don't want kids running into my yard just because they want think they can get away from their group or go through the bushes or whatever they can. It's a nice attraction. I would like to see some sort of
additional buffer or barrier, maybe a fence along the property line to prevent that from happening. I as as law requires have a fence around my swimming pool. Now I've got to worry about kids into the my pool. I can easily open the gate
and who knows what's going to happen with people coming and going. I mean, it's supposedly a corn maze. A lot of them happen at night. Nothing going to happen. We've had enough breakins in our area. Kids come up from Somerville Summers in Connecticut.
They've been hit in cars along our street. They're concerned with the safety and security of our families. I just recently had an alarm system put in my house because of that. This is safety on my side. Now, we had police in our backyard last year. I was away in business. My wife was home. You know,
the police drove through this property chasing somebody and you know, they ran supposedly through my yard. Uh was very concerned with that from safety standpoint. I have young kids, young grandchildren, so we don't want to have
a mixed use. You know, Anley Drive is a nice quiet neighborhood right now. We'd like to see if there's some sort of obviously somebody who has brought up the signage, but y a better buffer of some sort or a security fence of some
sort would be nice to be considered. We want to be good neighbors. I'm all for business. I had a a brew pub, not a brew pub, but a a restaurant pub adjacent to my house in Rhode Island. We just moved here last year about the same
distance. They had night volleyball at bright shining lights, whistles blowing till 10:00 at night. We'd have to call them on occasion to tell them, "Hey, it's after 10 and they'd shut things down, but we just have our concerns." Thank you. Thank
you. As far as the, you know, you talked somebody had said 81 parking spaces and 61 parking spaces. Um, is that, you know, what's the capacity of the building? because that obviously doesn't include capacity outside the building.
So there are some concerns with capacity and then we just like to have that little extra protection on our end and awareness that you know there's something happening over here in Hampton next from what we
understand too. The surveyors were actually downley drive yesterday surveying access to the property. Hammed in line is right here. This one neighbor here, that's me, my
other neighbor, the property. So, thank you. And I know it's an evolving process. Yep. Thank you. Thank you. name is uh Joel Adam. I live at 7 Anthony Drive, the one that's going to be most affected by this. Um we were told by several owners that there would
be three rows of trees. Now if this is going to be a working farm, this access way which will be traveled will be traveled probably 100 times more than the parking lot will be travel stirring up dust and noise.
Um so I don't know why they didn't continue the trees down here because these trees here are the ones that have been in our backyard right along our property line for years and they're very thin. We can see everything the entire field that we have visibility on
everything. So there going to be nothing to stop noise. There's going to be nothing to stop dust. There's nothing to stop anything from this property. And us being the closest house. Um just wondered why they couldn't move it just
a you know like another 50 ft that way. Um, but this road here will be traveled probably more than this whole parking lot will be traveled in any given day. And that's going to be a lot of noise
that we want at le they us that there be apple trees all the way to the road here to block, you know, be in in the order of being a good neighbor is what they said. But um this
plan here with just this extremely thin row of apple trees that are covered in vines right now that I doubt will even produce any apples is not going to cut what the traffic will be on this road if this is a
working farm. These there's going to be tractors and trucks and deliveries and everything going up and down this road all day long. So, I'd just like to add on the other side of the existing apple trees, there's already a service road
where we've already had pickup trucks driving it. It's a dirt road, but they're already using that, which is then even closer. So, okay. Thank you. Like to clarify that. Thank you, sir.
Uh good evening. Uh my name is Mark Cupri and I live along like the uh the I guess the the most ab budding uh border here about 650 um feet or so. I'm going to mirror a lot of what John said. So I'm not going to
have to you know in a meeting I would say me too. But um the biggest concern I have is you know the privacy and the and again uh the fact that they may uh I think Mr. Le was saying, "Hey, there's going to be a lot more apple trees." I
wonder if there's something once they if they do want to bring back the next iteration as I would expect um if there is that buffer um is that become a an obligation of theirs is that you know or can they say you know what moving target we're not going to do it. Can you answer
that? Yes. So this board can require additional buffering and and we can require um you know a certain width. So we can certain say you have to do a certain height to start. Okay. Yeah, we can do all that. That that's that answers my question there. As far as um and thank you. So there can be hey we
want three rows of or this much buffer of agriculture. Just as an example Doris Dental on Maple Street we they were the last ones in we said you have to have uh require a certain amount of arrivites. They have to be certain height. They had to be a certain brand. So yes, we have
the ability and that means it doesn't go away if it gets on paper for now and the next owner would have you. That becomes a part of the contract. Yes. Okay. That's we do have the ability to set conditions and that would be one of the conditions that we would look at. Perfect. And I want to stay within scope
because I guess you know the entertainment stuff because where we are is line of sight for the proposed building if it were able to move. I get these conditions DEQ what have you that's going to res they're going to resist that because I get it it's going to encroach on wetlands that then might
actually bring the price up and but movement that way would also force this um you know viewing area off of this patio outside of right now it's 220 ft from my property line and right in line with the pool and the privacy that I've enjoyed and what I honestly bought the
property for um was that so that would buffer would help I think for that uh to the security part we're the ones that got you know we've also been uh not broken into but the prior owner was there is this access kind of thing um I did have a question Mr. Lebec had a
study and I just didn't know what the um we said I think it was 600 plus cars on a Saturday what have you 6% on a on a weekday is the influx of what they would anticipate was there a percentage on what that impact is on a weekend I heard the weekday and you can get back to me I
just or if it takes a little time to read that but I just curious is it up on the weekend 6% as well or through the chair uh provided only for the week day that that percentage okay that It was only the weekday, not the weekend. Okay. So, I'd be interested to know, are we up
10 or 12% on a weekend? That would be interesting. I'll double down on the gravel. I do think it was a very, you know, two people have already hit that. The dust and that it's just going to create uh and with 600 cars through there on a weekend or on a Saturday, that's going to be quite a thing. I think it was 300 in 300. Yeah, it's
nice. Yeah. Thanks. Um, you know, this is also going to help, and I don't know that I'm I'm overspeaking here, but um, we talk light pollution and I get it that there are uh, lights. Are those is there anything that says, "Hey, at 10:00 when you close
down, those lights go off." Well, we we can, but there's also issues that they need to be able to protect their property, right? Well, so we have to take that into consideration, right? And I can I can understand the balance there. But you can have the lighting facing down and you know we have done
that before especially with the dentist we said reconfigure the lights and have them because they were pointing it build at houses right we said we're not going to allow that anymore. So you point them down. There's all this other stuff they can do now. Right. So I would just ask that that mitigation be brought forth in the next uh iteration. And obviously
lights from cars uh is is the other part but that's only up until 10. But I I just see this fanning of lights throughout all these backyards that's going to be pretty persistent during a weekend. And again, this might help in that buffer if there was something in this area. Um last one I don't know in
the plan here. I don't know if these are I couldn't tell on the uh are these bushes or what is this um around the patio? Is there some level of low hedge? You're right. Okay. So that's that's a little bit more additional privacy. I appreciate that. Uh that's pretty much it. I appreciate your time. I think that
covers it. Again, me too on a lot of the items that people offer. Thank you. Thank you. Would anyone else like to be heard on this matter? So, I'll turn it over to Oh, we got one more. M Mr. Paige, you didn't you know I have to I I do know that
your meeting if I didn't come up. Okay. Stamp that way you won't have to keep signing your name. Amen. I would just like uh to talk a couple things. Um I know we're talking about um traffic mitigation in and out and they've created a plan which I think
is phenomenal. Um I don't know if with some tweaks we got some tweaks just down the street to Metobrook Farms when they announced that their first uh picking of the corn is in. Um I think these guys can only hope that that many people show
up to their place. Um, and again, that's a full operating farm. Um, I I think it's one of these where I'm assuming we're operating under um the Dober amendment and that we're agricultural. Um, I see businesses in town.
Lafarantine is one that they can anticipate when holidays are and when they're going to be really busy and when they do, guess what? They have a police officer out there. And I would think that would be the same here. Um, I would think I mean if if you're looking at
this realistically as a farm, farms have gravel driveways. Um, it's just normal. It's common. Um, you know, they have paths and roads out into the back. They cut through their fields. Um, and that
I'm sort of anticipating that this is going to be operating as a farm. And I think this board understands that if all of a sudden it doesn't and it's operating in another way that's not um conducive to the town or legal that you
guys are going to step up and say, "Hey, you can't do that." Absolutely. Um and and so I think there's a lot of concerns because it's unknown. We're not sure. Well, how much is the building going to generate? How much is the parking and stuff like this? Um what I don't see on
the plan that I do know exists if uh so just for all due respect um these arborites that are in here cover about 400 ft and I know that because I installed them. They called me because the neighbor had asked for some privacy.
They bought all the arborites and asked if I could offer and put them in and I did. And yes, there are some that be replaced. But like up and in here, the reason we stopped here is there's large trees over here that shade the area that
the rivers aren't going to grow under. So, so although the plan looks great as here, it doesn't quite show everything that's already there. Um, on a typical house, you know, your driveways 60 65 ft
away. I mean, we have houses that only have 100 foot lot. So, the distance here, it looks small, but when you look at the size of the property, it's actually a little bit larger than you think. Uh, there is room. Again, they talked about trellis type trees and
stuff. Um, the Apple Place recently did them four or five years ago. They're phenomenal. Um, but if you do a row like from here to here, you're talking about 700 trees in the row that you can plant because they're actually planted 18 in
apart as you go along. Um, that's the standard. So, I mean, this is a large area for planting. Um, well, I think it doesn't So, it's hard. So, you can't just put big trees in here just for a
general appearance. Yeah. But I think once they actually do it and plant, but we have to see that on the plan that that's part of their plan is to plant all of those trees there. So recently I did a design basically like this and I
put them in and you know what you see on the plan? You see a little pencil mark. Wow. And that's it because you're doing if you did 600 of them in here, that's all you'd see because they'd just be little dots because you're talking such a distance here. Um, so I think what
they're putting in here is something that realistically you can see. This is the apple orchard area. Um, I'd like to see that visually. Yeah, I I do like the double entrance. Cuts down on the traffic, you know, as far as the flow and stuff
like that. And like I said, I think I think the board should basically take into consideration, see how it goes. If they do need an officer there for an event, have them get an officer. I don't think there's any issues with stuff like that, but just my two cents. Thank you.
Thanks, Ralph. I comment on Mr. Pa mentioned that you guys could reag the farm use if they if they change their operation, so it's no longer considered agricultural, right? I think that's what he's referring to. That's exactly what
they're saying. In other words, if they put in a full-blown restaurant that doesn't meet the agricultural purpose, right? You know, well, they have to be shut down, wouldn't they? Yes. Exactly. And that's relies on, not you guys. Zoning. Zoning.
So, the town, just so people know, so the town has a building inspector. The building inspector, I believe, will make the determination on the agricultural use. Yes, he will. And then as it happens to be, the building inspector in this town is also the zoning enforcement
officer. So if there's an issue, you raise that with the zoning enforcement officer who happens to be the building inspector. They will make an inspection and they will make a determination on whether it complies or it does not comply. And if it doesn't comply, he
issues a cease and desist letter and we go from there. Mr. Collins or Mr. Okay, take your pick, Mr. Collins. I'm go ahead. Okay. Um, I just want to uh quickly go down a list because I really want to
ensure the fact that we also hear what everybody is saying and we do also want to be good neighbors. Um, I'm hearing the additional buffering concerns and I think we can certainly bring back a revised plan with an
updated planting map with our plans for buffering. I do need to say out loud once again, and I thought I was extremely clear about it the first time, but there will be no restaurant here. This will never be a restaurant. We're not building a restaurant. We have no
intention to build a restaurant. So, I don't want that to fall on deaf ears because of what may have been misconstrued or heard or hearsay. This will not be a restaurant. All right. Um, farm. We qualified as a farm in 2024.
We'll qualify as a farm in 2025. Uh, as a farm, I want to let you know that we've already begun the planting phase of 9,000 linear feet of pumpkins. The seeds are arriving tomorrow. They'll be planted with a 90-day germination to harvest rate, which will put us right in
October. Those pumpkins will be ready in October to be sold, which again will make us qualify with those sales as a farm. When it does come to the apiary, we are extremely concerned that somebody was stung and had an allergic reaction.
I'm not sure that we can say that that bee was our bee. Uh certainly in close proximity we can look at that and we are sorry for you know somebody being stung not what anybody wants. Um I did want to
touch in the survey in Hampton that has nothing to do with us. We're not sure what's being built not us. Um yeah most farms in our area remain unpaved. I think Ralph touched on that and uh I just wanted to answer a couple
of those things. I I just need everybody to know our overall goal is not to create enemies. We're happy to work with the planning department to create a plan that works for everybody. That's why we started with the abberites. We'll continue to revise what we do to ensure
we're good neighbors. Okay, great. Mr. K, do you still have your hand up? Yes, I do. Okay. Um Tom K. Tom K, uh 265 Milbrook Drive, East Long, Mass.
Um, you know, we all came together with this project. I do live in town. Um, and I actually do own a house on Aninsley and my son lives in the same neighborhood uh that that adjoins Aninsley. I take great pride in the fact
that we've formed this group to reentrify an old farm that was part of the lexicon of East Long Meadow. For years, I drove by this property and it
was a sad sight to see. We took the initiative to try to reentrify this farm. Now, number one, I want to go with the concern of where the barn's located. We took great strides into researching
where the barn was previously and where the existing house stood that we tore down. That was a dilapitated fungus nightmare. Okay. That was left abandoned for 15
years. We put that barn painstakingly positioned to avoid and it points out towards the mountain ridge towards where nobody's backyards are. and it's the current place
where the existing house used to be. So, we did all that that research. And then regarding the the the driveways, those are the existing driveways that are on that property. There was an existing loop that went
around the house and then there was a big curb cut where the plant mart used to be. Those are all on this plan and we reuse the existing curb cuts. Number two, regarding the apple trees on
the back of 7 Anley, we will be adding more farm type uh uh trees and shrubbery there. So, I promise you as a neighbor to you, we are going to do that. But when we painstakingly took the time to
meet up with Cold Spring and UMass in the fruit extension program, um they discussed making sure that the rows of trees actually move in a north to south direction, not an east to west
direction for which those original apple trees do lay. Okay? And we did not want to have disturbance of the apple trees in that area where the front the the frontage is. So we wanted to make sure we were planting like maybe abberites or something that
had a less of an impact on the actual fruit itself that fruit tree. So basically from where Mark the back back neighbor and we planted those 60 abberites, we're planning on taking those entire
fruit trees and bring them down the hill towards the pond. That's how they'll naturally grow even better and create a ch trellis uh um effect. Um so with that said, um you know, I do live in town. I
am a neighbor and I really look forward to having a a a a wonderful farm in town. So, thank you. I yield. So, I'll ask if there's we're not going to we're not going to end the meeting, but I'm going to ask if there's anyone else who
would like to be heard on this matter. Yes. But what I'm going to do is we will probably take it back to this after you speak, we'll bring it back to the board. We will address our concerns uh based upon what we've heard. We would
ask that Mr. Stratton and the team, take what we have, meet again with the planning director, and bring it back to this in two weeks. Hopefully you will have listened to the concerns that we have but also the neighbors and see how we can we can get to it get to the
point. Mr. Chair, um can I also um provide some comments to after Yeah. Hi, I'm Linda Dalton. Um I'm at 37 Anley Drive with John and um I just wanted to just say two things. Sure. So um it's actually two years that we've lived
here. Last year when we opened our pool, there weren't any bees. This year when we opened our pool, there were over a hundred bees on the cover. I couldn't even be out there helping my son because I'm very allergic. So, I'm pretty sure that the bee that stung him had
something to do with not the proposed apiary that is already actually at the edge of our property. And our pool sits back at the end of our property. Okay. Um, pumpkin. I'm all for farmtotable. I think that's a great idea. Um, I love
commute. I want to be involved in the community. I think having a community that is has something like that is wonderful, but you're now you're talking about having people. It's a farm is one thing, but are you having people pick these pumpkins? Are you having, you
know, if there's public people walking on this property? Arborites are fine if they're living, but we need a fence. We need a we need privacy. We need safety. We have young children. We have an area
that people, you know, our house is, you know, a little bit further back from the end of our property. So, you know, it's there's a big big garden back there. What's to say people think that it's part of their garden, you know. So, I just I'm I I love I think that that's,
you know, the arborites or whatever, but a stable permanent barrier for safety. Thank you. The Apple Place has fence that protects their neighbors. The Apple Place has public people. It's a farm. I just don't understand why we can't have
that same thing. Thank you. That's my concerns. Thanks, Rob. Rob W. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, so just a few things that um that are brought throughout the course of the meeting. So, I've been taking notes on several of the comments that have come up during this meeting. Obviously, I'm going to compile a lot of
the stuff that was discussed today and let the applicants consultants know exactly what we're looking for for the next hearing date if that is what the outcome is of tonight. Just a few things I wanted to bring up as well. So, uh there were comments provided on this petition from the building department from conservation which is the
department I oversee and um as well as DPW. They did satisfy the comments from conservation by adjusting the parking and the buffer area. uh building had comments about the existing sheds and they weren't indicated on the original set of plans. They had updated that as
such to show what they're doing with the existing buildings. And the last comment pertains to their curb cuts. Within the DPW regulations, a certain distance of that curb cut has to be patuminous um asphalt and then transition into the
gravel. you can still wave the requirements that the whole thing is asphalt and that's obviously up to the discretion of the board. If the whole parking lot does become asphalt, that requires further storm water mitigation and more cost the applicants. Just keep that in mind. Um,
last thing I wanted to touch on is in regards to the traffic component. So, the one thing I want to kind of indicate to the public and to the board is that we don't really know what the flow of traffic is going to be within the parking lot. And my concern is that you have two curb cuts, no clear directional
patterns on the site. There could be instances where two people might be exiting both of those curb cuts at the same time causing issues. So I think one condition the board could explore later on is a condition for directional signage indicating where the entrances
are, where the exits are just to show the flow of traffic so cars can safely enter and exit the property without creating further traffic issues. on Summers Road. So, the applicant did provide a trip count generation from a registered uh transportation traffic
engineer within the Commonwealth, which to my satisfaction is very sufficient for what's going to be generated from the sites. There are residents that are bringing up issues about Aninsley Drive. Um, I would say as the planning director, I would definitely ask the board to consider getting more
information on the impact on the abuing intersection with Aninsley as well as whether or not the roadway can handle the increase in traffic. According to the report that uh Mr. Levc read, it seems that the roadway can handle the increase in traffic, but I do still have
concerns regarding the intersection with Anley, which doesn't have any signage and is not a appropriately marked or lighted intersection. So, those are the concerns I had, Mr. Chair. Obviously, it's the board's discretion to determine whether or not the further traffic requirements should be addressed, and I
yield my time. Thank you. I'm going to uh I'm going to go ahead. Sure. Go ahead. Hi, my name is Jason Tito. I live at 112 Long View Drive, Long Meadow. I'm the
third partner in this project and I just want to say that um I'm glad that everybody came tonight and voiced all their opinions. That is important in this project and in the whole planning of it to get what everybody's thoughts and and um concerns are. Um we
would like to say that we do plan on being good neighbors. We've said that from the start. I think we've shown that in our other businesses that we both own in each town that we are good neighbors and that we plan to to um live within the fa uh fabric of the neighborhood.
So, we're not looking to do anything crazy. We're not looking to do anything that is um different than what we talk about. I think it's very important for us to be transparent. I know everybody thinks that we're not being 100% transparent, but I think every construction project has evolving plans.
And you know, part of the whole planning process is to come in, show you guys what we think is the initial start. You guys can make your comments on it, they can make their comments on it. We go back, we adjust, and we try to meet everybody's needs and also ours as well.
Um, to also, I know everyone's concerned that we're not really trying to be farmers, but you know what? Nobody's a farmer until they are. I wasn't a brewer until I I started brewing and that's just like how you know that's how it happens. And um I'm actually meeting with the um
FSA on uh Thursday to go through the planting plan for the corn. So um we are doing our best to to learn as much as we can about farming and we plan on phasing it in as as we learn and adjust and can make things happen. But we do have a
plan. We think it's pretty solid and um it doesn't, you know, um involve these crazy events that everybody thinks we're going to have. You know, we're not going to be Sony's Place. We're not going to be, you know, all the things that everybody uh is thinking we're going to
be. We're just trying to take a piece of property that was a derelic property and reentrify it and and make it something that is great and keep it in the agricultural thing. That's it. That's all I had to say. Thank you. going to just stop the
public uh part of it right now and bring it back to the board. So, the board have any specific questions based upon what you've heard before we get into a general discussion. Okay. So, I guess here are my thoughts. I feel like Mr. page I have to have a
thought on something about. So from what from what I I gather from listening and I and I try to take into consideration what I you know what I believe needs to be in the best interest of the entire town because that's why we're here is
this board is is to look at projects and how they impact the entire town. I I think what is missing on some of the plans are the actual plantings that people have talked about so that they could actually visualize.
So specifically seven Aninsley. So you know it would be interesting to see all of that actually on paper and then actually bring in a picture of what those actually look like so that someone could sit there and go, "Oh, okay. There's going to be three rows of this
trees and these trees look like this and what's the growing schedule on all of that and and that may end up being better than actually putting up our ravites type of situation but we can't really we can't visualize that unless we
see it. So I think that has a big issue. I do believe it's a very valid point about I mean Mr. K indicated that you placed the building in such a position so you could look up look into the mountains I guess or the ridges. So I
mean that's you know that's aesthetically it's very nice but can't you get the same visual visual help me out here visualization visualization if you actually move the building further
away from the Aninsley properties even if it's 10 feet 20 feet 30 feet certainly it would be still outside of the 100 foot buffer zone okay and I do you know, I I do
have not issues, but I'd like to see it more uh more vetted out. So, if you actually show the plantings along seven Anley and and actually the other sites that you know have been referred to, um
then I don't know if I have as much of an issue with the roadway that would be the service. If you could see the you could visualize the trees on all of that. Um you know hours of operation you know 9
to 10 proper lighting all down. So and then they go actually you know you have security lighting you know after 10:00 and nothing more. Um but hours of operation for those things only correct. So we referring to make sure you clarify that Rob you and I have been working
long enough you can read my mind you know is what it is. Um because I think you can have a a good project but I but I and everyone and I don't doubt Mr. K and Mr. Collins and Mr. Sitso that you want to be good neighbors and you all have a track
record of being good neighbors with your businesses. So I'm going to take you at your word based upon past experience. Um, but those are kind of the the things that most imp impact my thoughts on things. This the traffic management plan
needs a lot of work. You know, I know it's a draft. I know it's preliminary in nature, but you know, I I guess I would like significant events defined more and what triggers a significant event rather than it just being outside the building.
Is it a significant event? If it's a 100 people or more, um, you know, unplanned traffic event that needs some type of definition to trigger that the trigger then notification of the town and so forth. So, I think, you know, they're all in
quotes, but I don't see a def I don't see a clear definition on all of that. Um, before we move on, I'm also going to review that plan, too, and give them feedback and comments. Yeah. we're expecting in two weeks or whenever the continued hearing date is. So, I mean,
this needs some more work and and actually, you know, I don't know if this has been put in front of the police department or the fire department or whoever, but I would like to at least have them take a look at it and provide their suggestions on it. We rely on those individuals like a fire chief and
a police chief and a DPW director to give us guidance on on these type of things. The only thing that I am 100% certain on is we we will work with the town council uh if we can that there be
absolutely no parking at all on on the main street. None whatsoever. That that just cannot take place. I mean, I think you hit 45 miles an hour when you're down that stretch and we don't need people pulling out in the traffic and,
you know, from, you know, parked and then pull out. You can come out from the driveway, you know, that's a little different. Maybe a national park, but not in East Law Meadow. Yeah. So, primarily those are my thoughts. Um, and if anybody else have anything else or
did I I would agree. I think there are conditions that I would like. So, what I'd like to do is to give the petitioners several weeks to refine everything. Um, certainly you have the ability to look at these meetings online
and see other thoughts that we had and other people might have. Is two weeks sufficient time for you to be able to do this? Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, just a heads up, that means this next hearing date would be July 15th. 6 p.m. is the
starting of the meeting time for the planning board. So, I would then entertain a motion to continue the public hearing until Tuesday, July 15th at 6:00. Y moved.
Second. Can I ask a question before you Sure. Um just and I'm sure we can take this up with Rob. Um as to the traffic management plan, I hear your comments.
We we're kind of struggling because it's a requested plan to be provided for events that we don't think are going to happen. So that's why it's a little bit loose, right? So, I think if we can get some better some direct questions Yeah. that we can
respond to rather than kind of a plan for something we don't think we're going to do. I think it's so it's definitely obvious that it's a hypothetical situation that you're working with here. Right. Right. And you don't really have a lot of specifics you can throw into
it, but there are certain things that we could refine a little bit more. Mhm. And once I review it and discover what those things are to make this plan more complete and then obviously get feedback from the fire department, the police department as well and DPW, I think we can provide that to you in a timely manner so you guys can make those
changes to it. Great. Till is going to do it. Perfect. Right. Any other further discussion and motion to continue? Hearing none. So for everybody in the audience, we'll reconvene in two weeks. Um uh as our planning director indicated, their revised documents are
online. Yep. At the town of East Long Meadow. Go to the planning department. Cards of fearium and cards are there that you can get. Um and in the meantime, if you have any specific comments or suggestions, feel free to forward them to the planning director
who can distribute them to us. We'd ask that you have them by noon time the Friday prior to the meeting so he can distribute them. And with that um on the motion to continue the meeting until the hearing until July 15th at 6 o'clock.
All in favor say I. I. Anyone oppose say nay. What is the next procedure if we were to approve this um planning part of it? Uh we talked very lot about the uses of this funers have they brought this to our lights and
yet we're we're here to talk about what we can ask you. So they need relief where they can go this use issue who that where that meeting take place and who is it? So Rob, I'm going to let you address that. Okay. So you mean after the hearing's concluded? Is that your
question? What's the next step after you act? But now there's I'm Yeah. So they go straight to the building department next. There's also a separate issue they're they're going to conservation commission on regarding the pond area that has nothing to do with this. That's next Wednesday. But for this once this
is concluded, go to the building department and start the permitting process with the building department which also includes the zoning review for the agricultural stuff as well. The residents express their opinion on usage. So, that would be something you would have to ask the building department specifically. There is an
appeals process for building permits. Um, I don't know what the specifics are of that. If you wanted to reach out to the building department, they can give you a better answer than me. So, I just want to understand, so we couldn't talk about the building inspector is going to be in charge of their plans that they
submit and the public doesn't have any direct feedback on a public forum for that. No, like here. So, okay. Yeah. That's just how it is in the zoning bylaw for this type of of development. So, so I think most of the concerns here
is the usage, not so much where the apple trees are going to be planted and where the driveway cuts are going to be. I think the issue is usage. So, I want the residents to know where they can voice their opinion on that. the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court to be to bring their to be perfect to be
perfectly honest with you. That's that's all part of the Dover amendment because they're hoping to be classified as an agricultural use. Yeah. So, well, I'm not arguing. Yeah. They're not qualified yet. Is it over? Are they the building inspector? They
have to submit to his plans to qualify. I don't think we should talk about this anymore, Mr. Chair. Okay. public hearings being okay then there issues that are still discussed further on. Okay. Good way. Sorry. Okay. Thank you. Can we take a rec? Yeah. Uh three five
minute recess. Yeah. So we do have our consultants. Yes. Hi Julie. We'll be with you in five minutes. Just a interview with Judy Merin. Barrett Planning Group LLC about the East Long Meadow Zoning bylaws.
Hi, Judy. I'm gonna Hi there. Um, can hang on. Hang on one second. Thank All right, let's go. Okay. Can we also add Bob Mitchell, please? Because my colleague Bob is also in the waiting room and Sure. Um, we need Bob. So, you
have both of us. Okay. And just so you know, we're joined by two counselors, Ralph Paige and Marilyn Richards, both former planning board members and planning board chairs. Lot of history. Wonderful. Wonderful.
So Russ, it's good that you did not try to meet with me today because I messed up the calendar and the time that I had talked to you about I actually ended up talking to the building inspector. So Okay. Um anyway, I thank you. He's younger younger and better looking than
I am. So it was it was fine. Okay. Um so we're happy to meet with you. U my colleague Bob and I are you know kind of teaming on this project. Um, and I we wanted to just first of all say hello to you, but second to, you know, to ask you
folks about particular issues or challenges you've had working with the zoning bylaw in its current form. Uh, if there are particular things you really want us to focus in on or things that you really want us to take a look at because they've been problems for you.
Quick question. Um, do over amendment cases, you know, being one of them, I suppose. But um you know uh just you know we're kind of doing really sort of a technical very deep dive read into the bylaw right now. Um so we invariably end
up with a couple of buckets of issues when we do this kind of work. One is uh a collection of things that are just technical mistakes in the or in the bylaw. um you know, things that are inconsistent, things that are unclear, things that are are not uh you know,
current with state law or things that need to be changed because they're judicial decisions that say by the way, you can't do that anymore. Um and then there's this other bucket which is policy level things that probably the town might want to work might want to
look at uh in a more comprehensive zoning review. So the audit work we're doing is focusing mainly on those kind of big technical things, but we all want to hear we do want to hear about, you know, the challenges that you that you have working with this bylaw. Um Bob,
did you want to add anything to what I just said? Well, uh first of all, greetings. It's nice to be here. Um and we look forward to working with you. I would say a couple of things. uh this this type of process as Judy was just
talking about tends to focus on what's wrong but we would also like to hear what you think is what's right what works well from your opinion um and um you know just to get a sense of okay
this section seems to be working well everybody's in agreement with that we can move on uh and so that's that would be very helpful as well. Um, so just to pass that along.
All right, you asked for it. So there, go for it. There are two things that I think this planning board and the town have done very well to make it easier for businesses in town to get going.
One, we this board used to approve all the signage in town. we have turned that over to the building inspector and so I think that process is much quicker,
timely, better operation. And then a several years ago there there used to be in the ordinance that when there was a change or a a change of operation at a location that it had to come to the
planning board and we did away with that. And so we leave that I take it. Do we leave that to the planning director or to the building inspector? So both uh so now they apply for a business license with the town and that's how we kind of do the zoning review with those types of
applicants. So so say if it was like a hair salon, they would have to in the past they would need what's called a site plan review waiver from the planning board just to move into a new building even though that used to allow by right in that area. But now we can just go ahead and do it administratively
through the business license applications and that saves so much time and effort and allows for business to open up a lot more efficiently than previously. So those are two wonderful things I think that we've done. You guys must have some suggestions or ideas as well
because things a shorter list say that the town councils will have their own interview though with our consultants FYI. So the people in this room. So Rob Terrell says there's Russ's rules. Russ's rules are I am trying to
introduce things in the zoning ordinance that would improve the appearance of the town overall. And so things like we allow a we allow a
uh a camper. It's supposed to be parked on the side of the house, but there are then individuals have three campers and not just one. You know, that is to me not good for your neighbors. It doesn't
add to the appearance. It doesn't it it diminishes the values of the properties all the way around. We've got something that says you can have unregistered vehicles on your property. The second one
needs to be um covered, screened, screened, covered. And most people just put a car cover on top of it. Um there was a suggestion at one time that said that you can have one unregistered vehicles and then the rest need to be
housed. George Kingston raised that and I don't think we we never did anything with it because he says he knows a guy that has like 12 antique vehicles and so you didn't want to do away with all unregistered you know cars but you know
there's a property up on uh Maple Shade near Porter half of the time of the year he's got like four cars parked in his driveway with car covers on them they're all unregistered I mean that kind of looks cheesy doesn't really add to the appearance of of the property all around
it. So quality of life without I I guess without really restrain without really impacting people's rights to use their property and I know that's hard to do. Um there
was one that we sent to the town council which they didn't agree with about parking vehicles on front lawns. We suggested that they shouldn't do that. They we got overridden, which is fine. That's the way the charter works. And I think the same way with parking
boats in their driveways. You know, to me, that's a quality of life issue. I wish you would look to see through our ordinance to see maybe what comparable communities have for like quality of life issues would be really interesting
to me. So, I can't be the only one. Come on. No, I'm big on quality of life as well. And, you know, because I I've lived here for over almost 30 years and and people are into more and more recreational sports now. So, you know, the the the issue of campers parked on a
property. Is it a registered vehicle? Is it an unregistered vehicle? There's a whole host of issues. And if we could get some sort of feedback on what other communities do, I think that would help us in arriving at the pro right decisions just to help continue to a good quality of life here. And I'm also
want to see what other things we can do to make it easier for a business to to uh to start. So we recently did the uh massage therapist. Yep. And you indicated at the town council meeting
that a lot of people come say to you I have to go through all this rigomearroll you know so we just did away there was a unfortunate incident when Mr. Paige was the uh chairman of the planning board a
few years ago where a uh a alleged uh massage therapist was providing additional services that were illegal and the town kind of went a little bit overboard and required all massage therapists to uh to get a special permit
through the planning board. We so a couple months ago we did away with that. So that I mean those type of things we want to kind of break down the the barriers to kind of opening a opening a business. Yeah. And I guess we've gotten we have a
district called Industrial Garden Park District. Yeah. Which seems to be now a catchall for almost anything that doesn't fit in any other zone. So, it would be interesting to see what other
communities if they've got a like zone zoning district like that. I don't What was the original impetus for industrial garden park? Manufacturing. Manufacturing. Well, originally set up for manufacturing, you know, we just
permitted a uh assisted living facility. There are storage unit. There's going to soon be a three or four story uh storage unit in there. Um we warehouse we have warehouses we have psychiatric facilities we have
medical offices dental offices we have architectural offices and we have traditional manufacturing along with that as well so I don't know if we really want to tighten it up or do we want to loosen it even more. I mean I don't know. Well there's vacant
properties out there too and you know if you tighten it are we going to end up with more vacant properties? So I mean it's like industrial garden park doesn't allow the retail sales. I know industrial allows retail sales. Right. You know individual single family houses
are not allowed. Yeah. Right. Well we want to keep that we want to but I'm concerned about the amount of empty buildings out there too. You know that's how block towing get in there. Yeah.
Really? I was like all of a sudden overnight just come from Yeah. I I don't ever remember that coming in front of the planning board. The contractor yard. Do you know what I'm talking about, right? Almost next to contracting is sort of contracting is allowed by right
in that district. If it's that's not a contractor. So you said it's a towing company. Yeah, it's a towing company. Really? Okay. I have to look at that. That might have been before my time. It was before your time. Yeah. Yeah. There's no storage of Rob. It was before your time to vehicles, right? No,
there's no storage there. They're housing vehicles there. The other big issue is Okay. I need a banana strawberry smoothie. Um I guess so. We have uh we have residents A, resident B, and
resident C. Drink. Take a drink. That's what I need to do. Um I would look at seeing some of the things. I I don't
think everything in a A, B, and Z should be allowed. like if if it's allowed in A might not be allowed in C or vice versa. Those are kind of things that I'd like to look at because our C is like was a
maximum of 10,000. Yeah. 10,000. Your resident say the maximum is or the minimum is 30 25 25 something like that is 40. Yeah. Yeah. So very good. You know, I don't want I don't want
consistency across the board because then you have people in resident C shoehorning stuff in where there's really not enough space where there would be enough space if it was in, you
know, residence A. That's Yeah, this is Marilyn Richard. This is scary that I know this stuff. Um I've been involved in town government. I'm just a dinosaur. I've been here for forever and I've seen
things evolve in some ways that um concern me and I and you know I look at the industrial garden park and I see things have changed but by and large the the standards are higher than in other zones in terms of those uses and the
properties are pristine. You drive through and generally they look okay. Yep. Yep. um our business zone, you know, we struggle with uses that are backtoback with residential property, trying to make sure that the residents
um aren't severely impacted, but that the business people are allowed to do business. So, that's that's the struggle that we have. But the biggest concern that I've seen over time is the fact that our residential neighborhoods have
eroded. Um they've eroded and gradually but you know we went through a period of time where we established the homebased trade bylaw to leg to legitimize a number of homebased trades that were being conducted illegally at their homes
based on uninforcement of our zoning bylaws. So, we created that bylaw and but now we're I'm seeing um neighbors homes that have trucks um and they're doing business and yeah, some of this evolved through COVID as well because
people are now doing more business at home, but I'm I go up and down neighborhoods and I could find a zoning violation on each one. Sure. And I don't know how we can rein that in. I don't know if that if the horse has left the
barn too far in terms of trying to um bring back some tighter enforcement and those kinds of issues. Um I don't know. That's that's what I've seen. But I think this is the opportunity to have consultants look at things. Oh, sure.
Give us some guidance. The bottom line is is what? It's enforcement. Yeah. And then then is enforcement. Yeah. But we and and if we tighten things up and then we we hand it over to the building inspector, zoning enforcement, then we can we can start chipping away. It's not going to happen overnight because the problem didn't happen overnight. But I
think we're headed in the right direction. We could look at our bylaws now. Yes, we go ahead. We got Yep. Bob, um ju just uh I'd like to follow up on the comment about the the neighborhood difficulties and you've seen them erode
away over time. You mentioned trucks and home occupations. I wondered if there's o other specific things that you have in your mind when you say the neighborhoods are eroding.
Some of that could be zoning and some of that could be enforcements, but some of that could be other things outside zoning and enforcement. But I don't know if so it' be helpful to us to kind of get a more specific picture of that. As a as a former zoning person, I I
speak more to to what I know are in our bylaws that are not being enforced in terms of personal habits, in terms of how people live their lives. That's not within the purview of our zoning bylaws anyway. Um we'd like to say to someone, your yard is a mess. You got to clean it
up. But we don't have the jurisdiction to do that unless it's a board of health issue. So, you know, I I see things where people are conducting businesses that they're or there are numbers of vehicles as as Russ pointed out on the front lawn. You see on the weekend all
of a sudden it becomes an auto repair shop and people are fixing cars. I mean, these are things that don't belong in a residential zone. And yet, is it a hobby? You know, it's a fine line. Is it family activity?
I don't know. I guess the way I put it at a town council meeting a couple weeks ago, when is it no longer a residential property? So, is parking cars on the front lawn
overnight a resident a residential use? Is parking your boat, you know, a residential use in your front yard or should it be on the sideyard? Is it having three trailers parked in your yard
um at one time a residential use? So I I think the comparison to some other towns would be good to see whether we're off base or not. But because then they wouldn't be Russ's
rules anymore. They would be the planning board. They'd be Rob Terrell's rules. Right. I'll stamp it. So you'd need one of his notepads. Go ahead. Go ahead. Uh just uh just a clarification and a comment about the parking in the front yard. I've run into this in many
communities. Oh yeah. Many of them it's because in the winter they ban on street parking and people have no place to park so they park in the front yard. Right. They park on a driveway. Yeah. Yeah. But they you know if you got a duplex or
something there this isn't a We don't have duplexes and it's not a city. We're a town. Right. Well, I'm talking about towns. I'm not talking about cities. Um, so is that an issue in this town? Do you have no parking on streets in the winter as a law? No. Regulation? No. So that
that's not what's driving the parking in the front? Not anymore. No. So that that's good to know. No. And I think the town of Bellingham actually has an an off streetet parking requirement or no parking on front lawns. Somehow
they they've been enforcing it. Yeah. I I was a longtime planning director up in Ammerst. Yeah. And oh god. And as you can imagine, we had a lot of people parking all over the place, right? And we did adopt
regulations banning front yard parking. And you know, it had to be enforced and it was enforced and that made the difference. Right. So you know you know in the lower valley we refer to as Ammerst as the people's republic, right? It gets referred that way in Ammer.
Yeah. Yeah. But different up there. Okay. That's how people on the east side of the state refer to Cambridge. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. You're right. Yeah. Go ahead, Marilyn. I you know I'm thinking about it's a really it's a fine line unfortunately that we're trying to
it is draw um my my son and daughter-in-law and two grandkids live in town and between them they have six cars and you know they're all on the property and they're not on the front lawn but the the problem is that there
are you know and this is what keeps our kids off the street and out of the bars and stuff like that because they're working on their cars. But it's all done tastefully. If it's a hobby, that's different. It is. But see, I don't want to do something to impact on that kind of activity. I, you know, I
don't want to become a libertarian. just I just want to be able to um provide um a standard that is reasonable and forcible and doesn't impact on the lives
of our residents because we are a unique diverse community and I'm not interested in changing the character. I'm just trying to maintain our property values and enhance our property values. though. What else you guys got? Rob, from the
development side, what do you see in our bylaws that could be changed? And Cassie, as a business owner, well, I think the a lot of it when the forms were cleared up. I think that helped. Yeah. So, we did go through a
whole application uh process a couple years ago. Bailey, did Bailey do that one? I think so. Yeah, you did. So, that that worked a lot better. Yep. So, it was good. And then I took us to Open Go and we've been doing that ever since. Y
Yeah. I spoke with someone today about, you know, who sort of appears before uh town boards and asked about, you know, when you when you get to a hearing, um do you feel that you've that you're prepared? does the board have everything it needs or do you find
yourself in a situation where the board starts asking for a lot of stuff that wasn't in the application and the person I spoke with said no actually the forms are pretty good so in terms of being informative so that was a plus because that's not always what I hear yeah uh
h how is site plan review can I ask you about site plan review go I just so I'm sure Rob or Tom talked to you that we just went through a uh pro well we went halfway through a process to develop a
plan for housing in our center of town a little bit so and you know we're just like every other New England town where we'd like to see it economically vibrant and have you know different types of housing that is
actually u I'm going to say applicable huh conducive to the needs of our community. Thank you. Yeah. So, you know, that would be good to if you had another
point of view and other similarsized communities, similar industry mix of our of our center district would be great. Are they allowed to do that as part of all this? Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Oh, yeah. I don't know. Well, Tom, you wanted the Saraton district process to be separate, right? Or did you want that roped into this as well? What was the decision of that? We'll take any input from anyone if it's data driven and makes sense. So,
yeah, but Judy, just just for your sake, I mean, we'll be working on our schedule for that. So, one of my one of my tasks coming up is to to work on the rest of the Centertown District mixed use bylaw for the center town, but obviously, you know, we can also get any feedback on that as well. that' be really helpful in
this whole process. But just know that that amendments could be happening simultaneously to this project. So are you working on that as town planner? Are you working with somebody else on that? Just what's the process? Okay. Okay. I'm doing that one by myself. And so what's
the timeline for that, Rob? Uh September. Hopefully. Hopefully the goal. Hopefully. According to Tom, we'll get there. I was thinking five years, but I didn't say what year. That's what we're going to submit. September of what year? November of blank. Yeah. December
of this year, we're going to start the public hearings most likely. I'd say for that two question. So, you wanted to know about site plan. Yeah. How's it work for you?
Okay. How about you guys? Yeah. Yeah, it works. you know, mo most of the time it's, you know, boom, bang, boom, you're done. Other times just gets a little more difficult. So, but that's not necessarily a bylaw
problem. That's a audience problem perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. Part of it is get a little contested. Yeah. I I ask them to address certain issues and then they address anything they want. Oh, I think also one a lot of that
is perhaps some the biggest thing from from the manager's office is is the liability of the statutory ambiguity. And I think that's why it was put in the charter in the first place to make sure our bylaws are always updated and and
taking into account new new case law, new state law uh from that liability standpoint of what's allowed and what isn't. We can perhaps not want it, i.e. our hearing tonight, people don't have a
choice. The state has said you got to do it and you have to allow it and solar like you brought up and some of the other uses in the industrial garden park, we can't. Yeah. Right. Also, um I just want to that that's the big thing for me to just make sure that uh when
we're quoting our law that we're not in sort of direct uh Yeah. conflict with state law, federal state law. I think uh one thing I want to add to regards to site plan review is that I think this community benefits very well to keeping site plan review separate from regulating the use because it's made it
more clear which perinium path folks have to go down. Like if you're building something that's not a single family home, you need site plan review. If it's of a certain size or maybe less than a quarter of the total footprint of for an addition, uh you can get a waiver from this request. And I think because the
language is now so cut and dry and we no longer have it be vague to the point where business owners have to get site plan review waiverss all the time open I think is a good step forward for site plan review and our bylaw. Okay. Okay.
Thank you. Two two quick comments uh related to some of the conversation. Um it's been mentioned once or twice as to whether we could provide you with information from other towns on this topic or that's you know that zoning thing and that's what
we do all the time. We've worked with endless number of towns so we know who's doing what and who did what and so we can give you various examples um as to h how towns address whether it's you know housing in the downtown or
parking or whatever. Um and Bob, when you do that, please, please give serious consideration to the other communities that you give us information from. Right. Right. I don't want to say
Cambridge does this or Dennis on the Cape does this or Sus does that. I'd like, you know, something of a similar size, similar demographic, similar industry base, something like that. So,
I'm going to put that back on you. What towns do you think of as we comparable to who you are? Well, I'm asking for a reason because I've been in a situation. Well, I will I will tell you. So, let me tell you. So, Mr. Paige and I were on a charter commission nine Oh, and Mr. Fana
nine years ago. Yeah. And the first thing we did was to identify similar communities. Okay. And if I can remember them, we used well Long Meadow. Yep. Uh Wilberham.
Yep. Palmer. South Hadley. Did we use Sturbridge? Yes, we did use Sturbridge. Stirbridge. I thought we had nine. We had Lello. Lllo. Lllo. Yeah. Did we I thought we had nine. So there's six. South Bridge.
I don't know. No, we did Sturbridge. We didn't do South Bridge. You took a couple little things out. Yeah. Yeah. So, we could probably find the other three. Oh, yeah. And that would be great. That would be great. Um because I think we've all kind of been in situations before where we had certain
criteria that we used to sort of say, well, this looks comparable. And then you get into a meeting with the community and they go, are you crazy? So, yes, I want direction from you on this so we don't come back to you with something that feels completely alien to you. Because as you know the the
craziest thing so we have a big project that will come back in front of us and the traffic engineer came in and was trying to compare us to Marlboro and it's like what are you thinking? No we did the same thing and then we had the planning commission come in on a 40R
committee and the first community they showed us was Chabe. Well, Chickabe's 50,000 people and we're 16,000, you know, and they're on a major highway and we're not on a major highway and they're on two major highways. Yeah.
So, just it it's that because what what that immediately does diminishes their um credibility, right? And so we want if you're going to do the work and you're going to do the work for
the town and we use that with the town's people, we want that to be credible when we use it down the road. Would you agree with that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We are credible. We might as well we want to stay credible.
Yeah. One of the things I I would like to do um in the next couple of weeks uh we have a third person working on this with us. It's Will Downey in my office um who does a lot of zoning work with me and um I want Will to go out there. Um I've
been to East Long Meadow but I can't get out there in the next couple of weeks and I need somebody's eyes. So Rob, I was going to ask you if you're going to be if you're not taking any vacation time in the next two weeks, if you've got some time available until now,
um, I'd like to have Will go out there and maybe you can do a tour with him and sort of show him like problem areas, things that are you're you guys are concerned about, maybe some recent projects that you're really happy with and some that you're not happy with.
So you can show us all those. So Tom Tom wanted to mention parking. So go ahead Tom. Oh you know last thing. So um just to go back to what Judy was saying. So Judy I am available uh the last week in July the 28th to do something like that because I'll be on
vacation the week before that. Just let you know and we can discuss that tomorrow if you want. Sure. That's fine. Thank you. Yeah. No I I just wanted to bring up parking sort of as a blanket statement. uh our requirements are either uh
good, too good or not good enough and and there doesn't seem to be much in between. Uh especially when it comes to sort of new development practices in terms of how much impervious area you're taking up on a lot. uh we we take up a
lot of space with uh I would say archaic parking counts and I would like to see sort of what what sort of comparisons we could we could draw with what we have that have been in place for quite a while and and what's more appropriate for 2025
development and beyond. Okay. Okay. Yes, sir. Just a couple comments. Of course. One of the things with those does that mean? Does that mean too it's difficult to locate for the public going through it's very
hard for them to understand. I'd like to take a look at like we have business, we have industrial, we have commercial. Um and I know I think it's Springfield has instead of like business and commercial they have business one and certain
businesses are listed in business two. And I think something like that may improve in the understanding of what's allowed and where it's allowed. Um, and I think there's stuff that it's just because it's been in there so long,
we've never looked at other communities on how to develop it and change it um to I don't want to say better readability, but when you're looking for something in particular to be able to go and say, "Oh, this is what I'm looking for. I do
like our tables, our table of use. Um, you know, you go under general uses or business and it's easily identifiable on, you know, whether it be um your square footage requirements or setbacks or the other table, what's allowed and
what isn't. Those make things easier. But again, just something like that. Your second point. No, that those are two. I combined them. my parking. So,
anything else from anybody? Good. Yes. Um, non-conforming uses and structures. If I understand correctly, the planning board oversees that section of the bio. Is that correct? Pre-existing
non-conforming uses and structures. you do would be amended by um a section six finding which is the planning board is the special permit granting authority that in our bylaw so that's that's something that we have in there directly
section 34 um that's is perfectly fine that you do that way but it's highly unusual because most almost all towns use the ZBA to do the that process so I'm just one and and we find pretty much
all the towns we go when we hear a lot of complaints about either the language that's in the bylaw or the process that's used or something's wrong or something's not understandable or those kinds of comments. And I just wondered if there's
any particular things that jump to mind uh in terms of how well your process works or if there's something in the bylaw that causes some confusion or anything along those lines. Mr. page.
So, as a property owner that fits under pre-existing non-conforming, not only use um but um structure, um I happen to um feel strongly that the planning board should remain the special permit
granting authority. Um I think our planning board over the years has done a phenomenal job with it. Um they tend to understand it. They tend to dig in a little bit on it. Um, not that I'm saying anything negative about our ZBA.
Um, some of their findings I've had issues with. Um, where the planning board seems to be working perfectly. I mean, allowing a zoo in a residency zone. Who could complain about that? I'm just I'm giving you guys kudos. You guys have
done a fantastic, you know, Mariam Street. Watch it. Just my thought on it. Yeah. Yeah, I wasn't suggesting to move it to the ZBA. I'm more interested in, you know, how the process marketing, how's the language in the bylaw, right? Those
kinds of problems. I think it's been fantastic. It pretty much mirrors um the state law chapter 48. Um and it's been to my knowledge, it's been working. I think the one thing I want to comment on too in that same section, Bob, is
that, you know, we have a a clause where if you have a piece of property that might be undersized or lack the required frontage, but you have the available water and sewer and your property wasn't subdivided or changed before 1962 or 63, whenever the bylaw was implemented, you
can build a house on there as long as you use the setbacks from that first bylaw, which was in 1962. Uh, and I think that's been very wonderful for a lot of people in town who've bought these properties or inherited these properties where they're like, "Oh, I'm going to build a house here. Oh, wait. I
don't have the frontage." And then we find this loophole for them using that section. And it's been very wellreceived. And I I think that's one thing that's very unique to East Law Meadow that you don't see in a lot of other communities that I've at least I've worked in. Uh, so I think that's
one positive to the whole section. and the planning board could also issue special permits for anything that goes above and beyond that. So I think um overall that section has worked pretty well for my end in the planning office. Thank you.
So it's I know it's getting late but I would comment on that and I don't understand how our ZBA can give frontage variances um without going through the planning board. I think we have zoning for a reason. And if it says 100 foot
frontage, you know what? If it's 95 feet and you want to adjust fine, but to cut that down to a 20 foot frontage, I don't see how that's even possible. And it's very frustrating when it happens. And truthfully, when the ZBA does it, the
only appeal you have is basically to the court. And as a neighbor, you're not going to appeal it to the court. You're not going to spend typically thousands of dollars on an attorney at all to go through that. It just um we'll take that with special flag lots where a house is
behind the house. I think we have our zoning for a reason and it's to prevent that. I I hate those lots. Just a thought. All right, we're going to wrap it up. Okay. Okay. Well, thank you. This has been helpful as a start. We I'm sure we will have more questions for you as we
get into this. Okay. We're all We're all happy to help. Thank you so much. Take care. You see, I'm going to ask that we uh postpone the item B under new business. So, we're to the planning and community development director's report.
Okay. I was trying to remember what item B was. Thank you for the clarification, Mr. Chair. Uh my report's very short. Uh so, I have the upcoming meeting dates in your schedule there just so you guys can get those down. We do have a public hearing in addition to the container hearing that we just heard for a special
permit. It's a request for an amendment to an existing special permit for um MOU Indian Cuisine. They're trying to extend their hours of operation to go beyond I believe it's 10 p.m. to midnight. Yeah, I think we had asked them to go for a
while, see how it see how it worked before they came in. Yeah. And he's he's approaching us about that. Um and then uh just some general updates. Um, so we do have one zoning amendment public hearing for the town council. Uh, the second reading for private car sales is coming up soon. I believe it's going to
be on July 8th. It is. I believe so. There you go. That's your answer. Um, and then, you know, planning matter subcommittee did have a lengthy discussion about a change in the language. So, just heads up about that date and time. Um, but the traffic and pedestrian safety survey that I
implemented weeks ago, just tiny. Um, so far we have received 314 online responses today to our survey with more in physical copy at the collection points. I don't know how many there are. There could be way more. Great. Um, so
the survey is going to stay open till July 11th. We've gotten a lot of good feedback from people so far. A lot of concerned residents. Uh lastly, our comprehensive zoning review and diagnostic, which you just saw we're doing stakeholder interviews, or at least Barrett is. Uh they reached out to several stakeholders, including town
officials, local developers, business owners, residents, uh other similar stakeholders, and then of course board and committee members like you just witnessed. Um and that's all I had. Thank you. Motion to adjurnn. So moved. Second. All in favor say I. I. I.