##VIDEO ID:JqE2Ej1NPqg## I just don't just picked him up okay we're g to call this meeting to order welcome to the center Town District steering committee meeting uh January 29th uh we're do a quick roll call uh Carolyn feros uh committee chair um Jason gumbert Vice chair is here um John sarks is not here today um Nicole is going to be um late Graham yeah we have ex officio Town council member Ralph pagee and ex officio planning board member um Robert trell um okay so uh we're gonna take up um can I get a motion to take up old business a pvcp uh review process District boundary map with parel second right thank you um do you guys want to introduce yourselves again thank you with Valley Planning Commission Jo by director of our land use and environment section and Aiden H MC senior class Department ready to just District dining project today and Qui little profile of the Centertown District as it was determined at the December steering committee meeting so where we are in the process we are ready to begin drafting language to the Center District starting that effort in Earnest tonight with steering committee's deliberation um the project for ppc's role and work will conclude when we have complete byw theing commit ready forward through the bylaw adoption process still have several rounds we'll need to go to the planning board their approv where it goes to council their final final vote so the center Town District as um amended with hearing committee input uh in December is a 96.5 acre area in the center of this is approximately just 1.2% of the total land area of East Long meow and it includes 122 existing tax parsels down of how the district is currently zone so of those 122 existing tax Parcels 57 are Zone business seven zoned commercial 50 are currently zoned industrial four are multi-zones meaning that they have been designated multiple zones only one parcel has been zoned residential a and three Parcels for essential C so there's a median size just to get a sense of how large that those Parcels can be uh total acreage by The Zone uh most of the district is currently Zone industrial nearly 45% um and currently only 7% % Zone strictly for residential use so this is a primarily a business commercial industrial Zone area that the steering committee has identified for resoning through this bylaw process that concludes our old business okay uh thank you very much um excuse me um so we're going to move on to um old bub um uh do I have a motion to um move on to Tom man remarks so second all those in favor I I hi hi good evening um I asked to interject myself into their uh meeting agenda tonight um to sort of go over uh really why we're here uh from from the manager offices perspective why we're undertaking this um obviously the the the grant process is what it is this is a 40R feasibility uh it means a lot more to to the sort of the initiatives coming out of our office uh the biggest of which uh I Ralph's probably sick of me saying it uh but I will continue to say it all budget season uh the number one reason for looking into this is revenue um we are reaching a critical point uh in the town's budget uh sometime in the next year or two our expense curve and Revenue curve are going to intersect uh which will only lead to uh uh diminish diminishing of services provided by the budget um we've been we've been growing the general fund budget uh by about 5% for quite some time um state law only uh allows us to tax a community at 2 and a half% which is why we had to go to vote for the high school because that would have taken us outside of what we're allowed to tax by law uh the second part of that Revenue piece outside of Two and a Half is called New Growth um and it's just what it sounds like any new tax growth in that previous year you can add to your Levy um we've been stagnant to say the least at around $500,000 for call it a decade we have our uh you know 12 lot subdivision here one new business there a little more personal property in the industrial Zone here there um the the 5% curve is catching to our two and a half% curve which is not hard to see um and we're sort of um limit lied on Revenue stream and the revenue stream is almost essentially all tax base uh enter mixed use um mixed use allows us to grow our tax base in the same place that we already have tax base only instead of one use on a parcel that we charge X we leave that use and add a residential component on on top of it say collecting three times as much taxes as we were collecting before in the same place um the second part of this is uh affordable housing um and I know that term gets thrown around and Mis so I'll say it again affordable housing is defined as 80% of the median income of the town uh the area the region the town our the number for for the 80% number for this area is $662,000 a year translating into a rental cost for one person of $1,600 a month which uh from the amount of people that I talk to young and old that are clamoring for more affordable housing their first response to $1,600 a month is well that's not that affordable um so um and the third is and you can see the numbers are still up here uh we have a extremely outdated industrial Zone in the center of our town which was super appropriate when we had the rail and an industrial base in the center of town at some point the rail went away we carved out the southwest corner of the town for our industrial Garden Park and that industrial zone is no longer appropriate um the list of uses on an industrial parcel anything you want to see on Maple Street um so this is sort of why the why this undertaking uh sort of came to be uh yes we received a grant to to check the feasibility of a possible angle and a possible makeup of this District but the fact of the matter is this mixed use is going to generate the development and that development will build our tax base and that is something we are going to desperately need in the next year or two or three um it's incentivizing development so now this piece of property used to be worth this now it's worth more to a developer who is going to get a larger return on his or her her investment um that that that's sort of the gist of it the 40 R piece only provides more incentives to the developer in the way of payment from the state the state's involvement in this process when we finish our draft bylaw is to read our draft bylaw and say yay or nay if they say nay we don't talk about 40R anymore we roll with our Center Town District however we see fit if they say yay we still go on with our process if at any point the planning board or the Town Council uh amends this bylaw to the point where it's no longer eligible for 4dr we don't talk about 4dr anymore so we're we're still really early here again we haven't we have we have we have we have the bucket we haven't have we there's not one regulation on any one of these properties yet not one that's their agenda tonight and I know you got a lot to get to so I'll get out of the way but I I appreciate you letting me sort of tell everybody why we're here other than the fact that it's part of the grant process but but these are this is uh this is a solution to a lot of three of the biggest problems that we've identified for our town all in one process so uh with that uh thank you all for being here again I appreciate all the the interest and I'm going to let the agenda sort of take the day perfect thank you thanks time all right I think um we're going to move on to new business um letter a is a review and deliberation of model 40R bylaw um section on permitted uses is number one uh can I get a motion to move on to new business 1A so all those in favor hi um okay so this is um I guess where it gets fun is this do we kick it to you guys to talk or yeah although I'm not sure if that yeah I can I'll take the microphone we also have another microphone so I they both will work okay so I can you turn that way we can hear you and do a test because it can be a little bit sensitive yeah there we go okay hi everybody so start off uh so yeah I'll just I can start off by addressing this slide um so we're just going to go through three sort of major sections of the 4 bylaw um they're going to Beed use section four which we have broken down into um residential uses that that want to hold it yeah okay res uses that this steering committee may or may not want to allow and then um mix use and the res residential components of mixed juuse then we're going we're going to go into dimensional and density requirements section six in the packet that you have in front of you section six in the 40R model bylaw and then we're going to go into parking requirements and this is going to be sort of a an initial discussion on all of those topics with some leading questions on our slides okay so starting off with the permitted uses um the question is well first is a statement typical housing types in a center Town District include single family attached duplexes and triplexes neighborhood scale multif family and mixed use if you take a look at the second page of the packet that you all steering committee has in front of you you'll see that in section 4.1 the bylaw requires some specificity regarding the types of res evental uses that um the town wants to include so really this is intended to just be a prompt to encourage some discussion from you all regarding that question what is it that you'd like to see in regards to residential uses in uh Centertown District discussion I I do have one real quick question so on here um uh it it just says single family it where it says single family that is specifying single family attached so that would be like a like a town home style right single family attach yeah single family attached be would be included under the umbrella of single family okay okay did you have thoughts well I I think mixed use is definitely one of the things that we want yes yeah so the next slide and we can this doesn't have to be quite so segment the next section here is mixed use and non-residential development and we were thinking of breaking it up just so that you have a discussion about whether or not for example you want to allow residential uses that aren't part of a mixed use development and then if so what types you'd like to allow and then continue on to discussing mixed use okay thoughts I'll start things off I guess okay um yeah I'll just start broadly here um I'm looking at this from the perspective of you know it's easy to start restricting so I'm looking to hear other people's opinions on this um Committee of any concerns they would have about you know going with sort of the broadest options here sure you want me to I've got no problems talking I'm typically not to a microphone um but my first thought is the Centertown District comprises currently um all of our business commercial industrial uses um what I'm looking at here is basically a bylaw for residential uses um I don't see how um our tax revenue could possibly go up with allowing a business to be taken out in a single family home to replace it um my suggestion would be no single family residential um mixed use absolutely I think that's critical to this um going forwards that's what I thought the um gist of uh this would be would be a mixed juuse District um but I I honestly don't see any benefits whatsoever to allowing our business and Commercial Zone to be transferred into residential I think that would just uh take away from our tax base rather than adding to it thank you I think the the use of of an industrial parcel um there there are a number of industrial parcels and everybody in this room I'm sure is familiar with some of them um many of those industrial Parcels are not generating much revenue at all and in order to put those on onto a revenue producing uh direction there's going to have to be some I think significant residential development in in the center the Center District um I would not Advocate single families I would Advocate a much higher density um I think we have to be very careful with regard to how it's done but um putting a a multifam condo unit or po apartment unit um done properly will increase the revenue from that parcel very very significantly um so the reason I asked the question about single family attached versus of single family detached um is um because I think there's a a distinction I agree that a single family detached home in in the center of town does not make sense um if single family attached where you have could have a potential you know rule of five five or so tow houses that are considered single family but they are attached I could see where that would be beneficial but if M thank you yeah um fault yeah goodness wasn't me um so I could I could see where a single family um attached uh complex if you will would uh would make sense but uh single family detached homes would not um but I but I think that single family attached kind of fits in with the duplex Triplex kind so that's why I asked about that distinction um and if that's a distinction that we could make um then then I I fully agree single family homes we have we have lots of single family homes and we have lots of area outside of the center of town where single family homes could be placed um density is what we need okay Carn can just ABS um the other thing I just wanted to point out is uh recently um I believe it was about four years ago we had a parcel which is listed here um which is industrial that a developer tried to get a zone change for to put in residential housing and not only did the public come out against it um but ultimately the Town Council uh voted against having single family houses take over for an industrial even though two of the three sides AB budded Residential Properties so I think the town really wants to be protective of this area um and they're cognizant about um increasing the amount of traffic and all um but I do think like you said attached has uh possibly a place uh definitely mixed juice absolutely thank you I think there's a um I'll take the microphone so sounds like there's a question for pvpc amongst the group here um how do you distinguish between the housing types and the density because I think what I'm hearing is that um so the single family attached or some sort of like Cottage Court could be potential um things to consider that are still single family homes um but they're not going to bring in the same value as something that is multif family um but how can you control for how many single family uh units can go on a parcel compared to the multi-unit um so I other folks maybe can speak to that as well but I can just start off by by saying as as you all know um I believe uh so 40R does stipulate minimum densities um for residential so it's 8 units per acre for single family 12 units per acre for two and three family and 20 units per acre for multif family and so you know if you decide that you want to include those uses for it to qualify for 4dr consideration it will have to follow those density minimums as well so that's something to just keep in mind as well um I don't know if anybody else wanted to speak to that question yeah I would just also say um you know when you're when you're thinking about like that's the guiding density requirement um we will in a little bit also start to just touch on um dimensional requirements and if you're talking about about um you know um lot size and different dimensional considerations percentage of of the lot that can be built out um you can start to get into some of those questions as well and really get into the details about um what sorry what development look like um and this is really meant to be sort of a you know a higher higher level question but I get that of course you want to start thinking about it in those specific details too which is what's going to come next um so does that sort of answer the question for the time being shut it off for okay just to be clear the um when when we talk about setting a maximum density um it's up to that number correct minimum that's minimum so that's a minimum yeah sorry about this um that's the minimum density to qualify for 40R so again it's eight units per acre for single family 12 for two and three family and 20 for multif family um yes that's that that's the minimum you can you can go above that but you can't go below it what what I'm asking is it let's say it's set at 20 and a developer wants to do 10 on that part within that District does that void 40R so it umre it's the wire I think we can hear you yeah just okay oh just talk without this got it got it okay um so the those density requirements would be written into the bylaw which means that to get approval under 40R you know if a developer were to bring that project forward and the bylaw was in effect it would have to meet th those requirements um to meet the standards of the bylaw um is so it's 20 units per acre so if it's a half acre right it's not 20 units it's 10 units so it's just that's a way to think of it it's not you're not going to have you know NE you might but you probably won't have too many acre size Parcels although that's to be something that you're going to get into with the dimensional requirements um but yeah for it to qualify under 40 hour would have to meet those minimum densities okay thank you sure okay can I ask a quick question if you don't of course so I'm looking at your photo here of a single family attached and then the duplexes and triplexes well the duplex would also be considered a single family attached wouldn't it it's only two units I I mean what's the difference in the two um actually what's the difference I mean in the first three they look pretty much the same I mean I think of a single family as a single house on a plot that's it the plot's 3,000 4,000 5,000 square feet once you start talking attached I don't see any difference on whether it's a duplex Triplex fourplex sixplex um to me that that doesn't classify as a single family house on a plot um I would say that with regards to single family attached it's like typically you're like your condo so sometimes and sometimes however the developer wants to create legal parcel by with that building or the portion of a longer building that has the individual homes um that parcel would be drawn so presumably you would treat that as a family because it's one unit on one one dwelling unit on whereas a duplex or Triplex is two dwelling units on one parcel so the parcel it's it's it is it is murky it's really it's really strange it honestly is but the way that what I think Ken is trying to say is that like the single family attach it looks like it's one building but like at the parcel level there's actual parcel lines that are splitting up the building the building so there's no no property line or anything it no there what I'm saying is that there there's a property line that's actually there's no sets or anything like that because they're all attached right exactly yeah y but technically that's that's a distinction is if it's on one parcel um but yes in practice your point is well taken that they they look the same essentially right they very very similar yeah from a development standpoint in thinking about it in order for for something to to be developed significantly with um cost structure in mind density is really going to have to increase really going to have to increase I don't I I don't see duplexes and triplexes and single family attached having any chance of of being built without uh you know some huge subsidy from the government um if if the developer is going to put put something up it's going to have to be very very significant density more like at least the eight and and maybe the 20 breaker c one I'll be I'm loud enough so if you take the one acre and you got to put 20 units on there right doing the math on that I I'm trying to visualize how tall that would have to be to have realistic Apartments I would assume in that right is that are you going up three stories four story how how tall does that have to be for one acre because that's not a lot of land to put 20 units on right yeah I uh we have that exactly kind of I I I don't know either I'm just I'm trying to picture it in my head I mean 3000 square feet right so if you assume th000 sare foot dwelling start adding the levels imagine yeah you got to pull setbacks right so those setbacks and parking right you have to allow for those setbacks until you adjust the zone right till we get into the details of what is the appropriate setback for a mul familyless mixed juuse or a center Town District I I will also say this is coming in a in a little bit we can scoot around if we want to but we have some examples of dimensional regulations for different um housing types and I I don't recall off the top of my head if we included the one for multif family that'd be 20 units but I I do I just my familiarity with other 40R bylaws I think I've seen um you know like 40 feet as as a height maximum um it just so it can it can be done it doesn't require that you have you know skyscrapers or anything like that so yeah but three stories in the town so just curious as an apartment what are we normally looking at a th000 square feet that's a pretty good size apartment right yeah so if you took a th000 square feet um I mean that's what 43 uh per acre if it was all on the ground floor so 20 if you went two which would end up being covering half an acre if you went three floors it would cover what a quarter of an acre way about 10,000 12,000 square feet that gives you a again it's only a ballpark but right that's what I'm trying to it's a minimum of three floors to get to get to the 20 density we 35 minimum of three cap at 35 in the town right yeah so well so if we create a center Town District where C at what we choose and what the council chooses to allow for the heights currently in industrial it's 50 feet yeah and portions of this used to be industrial portions were business um residential has always been 35 feet so just so I have it in my um Ralph did you say on onethird of an acre have those 43 units at a th000 a piece technically at 1,000 foot a unit three stories high uh and roughly 12,000 square feet you could do it and again that's assuming that every single apartment's a th000 square feet um my whole house is only 1180 so um two bedroom two bath house and I think there's minimum requirements don't we have to allow one two and three bedroom under 40R yes that is true yeah so so some would have to be a little bit larger some could be smaller um some could be efficiencies um thank you from a planning standpoint you have 20 units how many parking spaces do you need 40 so that is coming up um that's not um necessarily a given actually I think it depends on a lot of different conditions um so best practices in some cases will say one unit or one space per unit um but that's entirely up for to you all to to come to con but we're gonna get there that's that's coming up just make know that public comment will come later um just just as a note um we will be doing public comment um a little bit later um but I just I just want to to pvp's um Point these are all the things that we're going to be going through so the the bylaws that are in place right now um aren't necessarily the bylaws that we were developing for the Centertown districts not saying that we're not going to adopt some of them but that's the point of the process so that we can kind of look at all of those things arking and height requirements and all of that so that's that's a part of this process okay do we feel ready to move on okay everybody ready so now this is part two of the permitted uses question mixed use and non-residential development um seems like you know very Pro mixed use great and so the question is what non-residential uses do you think should be allowed because you can really specify that um if you look again I'm G to direct you to ask that explicitly any of the following non-residential uses and then you're asked to we are asked to specify the permitted commercial institutional industrial or uses as part of use building it has non-residential to the non-residential consistent so that's question one and then this the next question that's just sort of a followup for that is um should the allowed uses be different for mixed use versus standalone residential do you want to have Standalone non-residential uses permitted for example retail uses that don't have a residential component if so what should those be should they be the same as the ones that are allowed as part of a mixed use development um can they be different yeah discuss just want discussion under discussion y okay um personally I'm inclined to say that M mixed uh for me is the most enticing of uh non-residential uses um the the more mixed use that we have um the better if we are opening it up to more retail individual spaces without the mixed use component um then we're we're just kind of creating um more of the uh the commercial retail office spaces in the spa in in our Center Town um and I I really do think that the mixed use the residential part of that um I think that is what's going to create the most um walkability it's going to create um more tax revenue for our town uh putting people where the businesses are is uh I think it's really important to to consider that um being the majority of what we put in the Centertown District what kind of businesses um I mean if we're if we're looking at the kind of businesses that around here retail office Spas restaurants cultural institutional um I don't I don't necessarily I don't necessarily think um I don't know that I would say office space um I definitely think retail space we have a ton of restaurants in our town maybe something other than a pizza joint would be great um but I think restaurants would be great um you know community centers I grew up in a town that had a a really old theater that was really neat had a stage and the kids that did dance classes got to go out on the stage and um you know something like that would be really interesting um in the center of our town so I think I would be open to everything I don't know that I would say office spaces but I'm open to that idea I think when you if if you travel around to communities where they have mixed use developments and and there's some vibrancy um there's very few limits on what is is put in place so all all the the items on the list to me um are are appropriate and attractive someone wants to put a restaurant in and residential above it or they want to put a a doctor's office in or they want to put you know anything else in that they they think will fly it that's what that's what makes the the area vibrant so I I would not not restrict much of anything maybe massage parlors or something but um all those listed on the board for sure I I I just tend to agree with that um not being too prescriptive while sticking to sort of a set I I like those points up there um for non-residential so I'm basically in agreement with that point Nicole wants to be recognized oh hey Nicole I'm sorry sorry Hi everyone I was just going to concur with you actually that opting for mixed uses development would be preferred as it would effectively address some of the issues of of housing shortages within the town and also just you know the restaurants would be a nice scenery for options for things to do around town and of course some retail stores will be nice as well some mom and pop shops you sure you know what without the the microphone so non-residential uses how about a cemetery that's non-residential use I think this is what we're looking at and when you start looking at a whole I would say industrial uses I don't think we want a uh self- storage um or a warehouse or a distribution center there um I think what we're looking at is a very small selection um I mean there's pages and Pages here of different uses within our town and I think it would be event for us to literally go through this on our own and say I like this I don't like this um because there's things in here that we just don't think of a horse stable um sorry I don't think that should be in the center of our town um again for the horse lovers I'm sorry I apologize um but there is there's literally tons of stuff um and we have to question ourselves do we want like an indoor self- storage facility to be allowed in this District um you know I'm for you know professional Studios I'm for um you know any type of uh the commercial the retail aspect because I think that helps us but again once you start going out machine shops I mean we've got a few little machine shops is that something that we think should be in the center of our town or not um I I think what we're seeing here that's giving our choice obviously you're only allowed a little bit of room on a slot show and there's so much more to consider um so Ralph um some of those are specifically industrial zoned properties correct some of those that you were naming those are industrial uses some are industrial some are business some are commercial right so I guess I think that's going to go to what we look at as uh you know doing an overlay or doing a a base Zone Changing those because then that'll help narrow down and then going through I going through and then starting to pick out and be a little more specific I think that makes sense I mean my thought like you said is you create a center Town district with items within that that you want to allow um that would exclude certain items that are listed under industrial or even under like you said maybe we decide hey the center is not quite the place for a massage therapy Salon maybe that should go out North Main Street or Bank uh um I mean again but these are different things that um I I think we really need to actually take a list like this and say no no no h that's a possibility and go through so as a guidance for pvpc and drafting would you want them to um replicate the commercial and business uses that are presently allowed and then allow the committee to amend and modify from there mayor yeah I think it's a good idea I I think it's a very very good idea um Ralph to take yeah all these things I mean I never I would have never thought to put a cemetery in the center Town District but I mean so the other sorry I don't mean to jump in but I'm just looking like we have a community and public service uses which has Child Care Facility I don't think that's a bad idea to have somewhere in that area especially if we're going to do a mixed juice um people work it would be nice to basically go down and say okay my kids are safe and head off to work um so again I think there's positives in a lot of the different um areas that we have I mean I would definitely start with the business and Commercial most of those uses um looked pretty good that we can adjust um I mean the same thing if we're going to non-residential uses what about um like a family a home daycare so you know if we're going to allow residential houses are we going to allow daycare facilities to be in them I mean these are all there this this is a huge portion and it's going to be a huge chunk of our time deciding hey what we like what we don't like and no matter what we craft for a bylaw we're going to forget stuff and it will have to be adjusted and tailored and it's an ongoing process um that's why there's ways to change zoning bylaws but I would definitely recommend most of the industrial uses come out um I I don't want to speak for everyone but I think I think most people would agree all of the industrial look through the list and make sure we have do we have uh a choice to either do it tonight or have the CPC group uh put together a list and then we we call or ad from there yeah I think you want to give the um Pioneer Valley Planning Commission some broad directives so maybe it's we want the business Commercial and public service uses in there and have them draft it and then you could call through it with uh you know more attention how much time you want to spend I'll read each category and you guys can say yes or no I think I got ours I think we can I think we can give them the information and have them um pull it compile it for us and then it'll be easier for us to then sit down and take a look and then I think that'll be easier for us to quickly just go through the the list of of uses um and then um is there anything else that seems to have like a a broad header or category that is worth entertaining so we've got General Uses um which includes agricultural um I don't think we're going to look to put a garden or have a farm in the middle no but maybe a farmer's market would be allowed so um community and public service service uses we got commercial uses business uses obviously what weal about industrial uses there's accessory uses um home occupation so if we're going to allow residential or we're going to also allow them to have a home occupation out of there um I mean that's most of it so would it be safe to say um just from a broader perspective uh to give them at least somewhere to start uh commercial uses that they can go through this and they can pull everything that's considered commercial we don't want industrial necessarily we can always add one you know can always one off but if they're going through and they're pulling the broader I if you don't mind I I would guess pioner Valley planning if they look through this can pretty much guess the ones that are really going to be a no and pull those out yeah and I I think that's what I would ask them to do yeah and then and then when whenever it comes back to us then we can kind of go through it a little bit more more detailed and and then we can say well you know yeah I know it's allowed some places but not any slung meow yeah so one one of the questions I I have kind of a follow-up question to the your second question should the allowed uses be different for mixed use versus St and which I that question totally makes sense to me but um one of the things that I um uh heard I don't know I I think it was the um when we were on the 40R Zoom thing uh we can kind of create a this term is kind of like we can create subdistrict I was going to say a Swiss cheese approach if you will um where we can create subdistricts um and you know obviously if there's a district that an area within the district that we feel a heavily mixed use and another area that we're like no something more with the high density residential makes more sense or something that is um as opposed to mixed use a standalone makes more sense um just kind of keeping that in mind uh for you know allowing mixed use versus stain Lo non-residential it doesn't have to be a one-sized fits-all um for for all of it we can kind of create something that fits for what our community wants and we don't want to have definitely don't want to have one size fits all right there's got to be flexibility built in to to really make something work and that's going be attractive yes so absolutely you can you can definitely do SUB district and um that's a whole sort of other question where we get into really specific detail about what you see in very particular areas but yes question okay thank you I just want to clarify clarification on that and I through the chair I do think if we do a mixed use uh area or a building that there will be different uses that you tend to allow in that as compared to uh a single residential unit if someone lives in a single residential unit and they want to be um have a a photographer studio in it that's allowed now I would say yeah you switch to the mixed use I'm not sure if I would be so apt to say yeah okay we've got a commercial use down below you got an apartment up above and your room is going to be used for this um so I do think that there could be some some differences there depending on what we choose to allow in the zone and the last question um Ralph is is mixed use for like commercial versus other Standalone non-residential so um you know to to your point if you know if we have a standalone that's a a restaurant versus or a bar versus a mixed use bar restaurant so just trying to figure out you want to live above a bar um um May tonight yeah so I think that's something else that would be um worth considering and talking about um as a group did that help think so yeah Kyle's here taking note so okay thanks Kyle okay so do we feel pretty set on this for now what about the what about the issue of Base uh base ver overlay have we I don't feel like we've come to a decision on that and it seems like a fundamental detail right um yeah so I I I think that's a um probably a good thing to talk about base Zing versus overlay so what are we discussing are we discussing a bylaw with 40R or are we discussing an overlay dis Center Town District over what we currently have I think it's both I think we can discuss Ralph we can disc I mean there's there's obvious uh advantages to I think uh looking at at it both ways an overlay versus a base um the the base we talked about before I think as a group we've all kind of feel like uh Bas loading especially with the industrial um that um I think that would be advantageous to get that industrial um out of there and and we're rewriting these bylaw so I think that there's a a real benefit to doing that um yeah I mean long term the the industrial just doesn't make sense in the center of town so um we don't want to take somebody who's has an industrial use currently and say you're out of business but um I don't know that that's the case they would be bothered in until and unless something changes uh until they change the actual use once the use is changed to something that's not industrial then they can't go back to Industrial yeah oh sorry about that oh do you want me to say what I repeat um so what what I said was um is that anybody who is already industrial if we did base zoning it would not uh they would be grandfathered in it wouldn't change it out from underneath them um until and unless they changed their use or if it was sold or and and that that use was changed um to that point sorry yes and my comment was that we we we don't want to take anybody's business and and and put them out of business for sure so that's whatever way we go we have to make sure that those who are using it for industrial use now um have an opportunity to continue doing it I think that's only fair and so Carolyn to your point um I would be more apt to uh not do an overlay because of the underlying industrial and that we need to change um what's allowed in this District where an overlay allows all existing uses and you can do what's in the overlay um and again that would defeat the purpose of removing industrial zone so yeah I I think I think that's the way to go for the long term benefit of the Town any other comments I agree the agreement right okay so gonna move on well I should have fli to this slide I guess this is where you're supposed to deliberate but okay section um so this is just pulled directly from the um 4r bylaw language so I'll just read it out real quick without limitation the smart growth zoning shall set out the dimensional use parking and other standards applicable to projects within a district including within a substantially developed subdistrict including but not limited to height limits setbacks lot areas lot Dimensions unit to lot ratios floor area ratios lot coverage ratios and open space ratios just to head it off we are not going to get to all that tonight um and in fact a lot of this conversation around dimensional regulations is going to be tied to a future conversation that is going to be had around design design regulations so in practice dimensional and design regulations they go Hand inand by necessity so because we're not talking about design tonight we're going to just kind of touch on some of the dimensional regulation questions okay so this is really meant to just be a a discussion for all of you just to kind of start thinking about this question in more specific detail so the question we have here to head off this is what are the right dimensions for residential mixed use commercial and business what we did here just to just as a starting point is we pulled out the existing business district dimensional regulations so we have two uses here any permitted use and then residential use so any permitted use except for residential use um and it has actually no minimum lot area as of right now um minimum Frontage of 100 feet for any per you in residential 75 and you can read through them so um we have Heights maximum Heights of 40 and 35 um so just keep that in mind quickly flip to the next slide this also just this is a you know I realize a lot um but and that's sort of the the point as well is that it's a lot um these are just some examples that we took from the town of daners um mstn District which is a 40R district and it just is intended to kind of demonstrate the the sort of degree of specificity that you can get into with regard to all these different types so they break out we just had three examples what they do this for a number of different building Types on use types they specify mixed use buildings General commercial buildings raous and Tow houses and then for each of those uses they have all these different dimensional standards right and then as you can see they also have design standards so again those are always going to be tied together in practice but this is really just meant to be to keep in mind for reference just to know that you know this is what it might look like or something like this is possible whether or not you want to get into this level of detail it's totally up to you um they did but you know it's just a possibility um so that's that's really it just the prime that discussion so I'll leave it to start yeah without without going into the details yet could you talk a little bit about the value of spelling out these details in terms of permitting sure absolutely yeah so I mean when you have all of the these details specified that is just incredibly valuable for a developer for example who wants to come in because they know you know exactly what the standards are it's all laid out very cleanly it just makes the process um you know much sort of much easier you know it speeds it up it it makes it simpler and a lot you know it it's simpler by providing complexity that you know that the developer knows if they follow all these regulations then like that's that's going to work that's going to meet the standards um so just really it's really important to make sure that you have all of this um spelled out as clearly as possible um as clearly as you feel comfortable um to provide that um that information for developers as they're looking to build in the district I don't know yeah okay the more specification there is better off it is it um it's a it's a road map for the developer but also it's something that's been thought out in in advance so that the town this District develops in a manner that makes the most sense there are a lot of there's a lot of points to consider um but I think it's important to to specify a lot looking at these um examples versus what our current um uh specifications are um it feels like our current ones are very restrictive with the 100 foot setbacks um certain things um I would be curious to talk to the planning board people in the planning board to find out um like it's where um where in our town is that so I can get a vis I'm a visual person so I would like to see like what are those 100 foot setbacks um looking like and then obviously we're going to go move forward into parking but I know the the parking specifications in our town are very restrictive as well so I would be I would want to see what those look like in our community to see how this what the benefit I think the benefit would for this being less restrictive is that we can get more onto a parcel um it seems to me talking about density having being able to put more on a lot and not being as restrictive makes more sense um just just on paper we we definitely would would have to look at um much a much different set of guidelines that exist today but in the B business district right now I believe eel Meto has you know no no setback on on a rear yard and and the front yard I believe can you flip back no minimum Frontage is 100 feet no that's FR that's front minimum set back back is 25 feet 25 feet uh rear yard and side yard is none okay okay yeah so there and there are a lot of buildings in town right now that that that are set up that way that are that are in the center of town and other other areas I misread that so I apologize that's okay but that would have to change too the 100 foot Frontage you know there's there's not a lot of parcels that would qualify any thoughts I think most of our business properties qualify for 100 foot Frontage um but if we're looking map if we're if we're looking at creating density with mixed use we may not it depends depending on the developer they may not be able to accomplish that 100 foot Frontage if they're looking to go up as opposed to out or so it just might be we might have to look at at those numbers I think it's something we're all we're just got to discuss oh so what I would what I would say is uh depending on again like they said the design um and what we choose to have a look for the center of town is really going to drive a lot of these Dimensions um I've seen many areas I've been up to Portsmith Portland where the buildings are basically you have the street the sidewalk which is five six feet wide and then the building um I've always loved those places does that work in the center of our town I'm not sure if it would I think that's a discussion to have what type of design feel and look that we really want um and again I think that's really going to drive what we choose to do is there anything that distinguishes the setback from the sidewalk or do you build in sidewalks separately from the setback how do you how do you build in that feature So currently the setback is just just so everyone can hear me um if I understand correctly currently the setback is from your front lot line um the sidewalk is typically owned by the town so your lot line probably starts somewhere right after the sidewalk um and again that's why I would look at this and say in some areas right in the rotary I mean we right now already have buildings that are set up like that I know um the Chase Bank building I know everyone loves it they love the color um that had to go for a variance uh because of how close to the road it was but the pre-existing building was pretty close I think they moved it back a foot or two um so they received the variance but pretty close to the sidewalk when you look at it well on Shaker on the east side of Shaker you know there's there's buildings that are right right on the sidewalk right now so takes me a bit I gotta think yeah any other thoughts you know I I think this this is a it's a very important design consideration to to try to get these right um but if if we can if we can get it get it done it's it's a nice road map for any developer to come in and see okay this is what what has to be met and and we can either do it or we can't do it so mayor one more y sure um so I think one of the easier things to talk about is the heights of the buildings So currently I believe we have as they said uh business residential uh commercial and Industrial industrial allows up to 50 feet um I believe if you double check me but I believe it's 50 foot high um you know business is what 40 or 45 and then residentials 35 um so I think that's something that the board looks at hey this is the middle of our town G to put a limit on it of 40 feet uh for mixed use are we going to go as high as what the indust Ral would have already allowed 50 fet um again I think that's a choice uh and consideration for the board and it may depend on what type of building that you're actually putting in yeah yeah I I agree on the height restriction very important um it would be interesting to know what the the Mario's building Mario's restaurant building is that seems to me to be one of the tallest buildings in town right now and and I don't know if it's 40 or 45 feet whatever it is but um yeah it's important again I think from a density standpoint you don't want to go too high but you got you don't want to go too low either I um I feel like the what I brought up about the the subdistricts I think that this is where subdistricts would really come in to play for our community um you were talking about Shaker and that that Corridor what fits along that uh southern part of our map that we drew isn't necessarily going to be what is going to be appropriate for the area around the center Fields it's not necessarily going to be what's going to be appropriate around the uh Center Square behind Center Square going up uh I always get the road wrong not Baldwin the baldwi yeah okay um you know what's back there so what's appropriate for one area in this Center Town district is not going to be appropriate for others so I think I think for our purposes I really do think that subdistricts are going to be what we would what we're ultimately going to end up looking at and and correct me if I'm wrong the even the design standards um Heights requirements setbacks all of that we can specify for each of those subd districts um yeah so I think to to Ralph's point where you know we don't want something right on the road at The Rotary but maybe on Ballwin that might be something that is appropriate so um okay any other thoughts I'm sure I just add to that so I I'm not personally you know convinced that subdistricts are are something that that need to be defined right now um but I think that also leads to a related point which is that Beyond you know some of these regulations I think the town has some work to do in the future uh sort of defining how the public spaces that it controls you know separate from private property are going to look right um things certainly will change from where they are today and I think that will play a big part in defining what makes sense where is shiker road going to look the same in 10 years 20 years who knows right um so that's that's my reticence to really support subdistrict discussions right now personally okay are you are you thinking that just just from a height standpoint that it should be highest in the center or are you thinking something else when when you're talking about subdistricts I'm just oh like specifically yeah I would say no not highest in the center um you know we all we all think about Center as the rotary um and if we were to put something um we you know that our Industrials 50 feet if we were to stick something right there on the rotary at 50 ft um I think that that would be a pretty drastic uh something as you're driving into town and you're driving into the rotary um but if you're at the um the brewery there's those those lots that are back there behind the the the brewery if it that might be something that's a little more appropriate for something that has a little more height maybe that's where you put a you know a two three story apartment um complex or something that's not right on you know right on our street it's set back um but it's still in that that District that that's kind of where I see the the subdistricts coming into play is being able to say we do want height and more density in some areas where we want more mixed juice we still want the density but different kinds of density in different areas U that's that's what I Envision the subdistrict being able to accomplish it's it's still density it's just choosing where we want that density to be would it um would we want the tallest buildings right on the street anywhere I would think it would be better for them to be off the street set back somewhere with a little lower height on the street regardless of of what whether we're on Baldwin or Shaker or Maple yeah I mean so like talking about density if uh if we had a a mixed use two story did I pop sounds good now if we're if we're talking about mixed juuse uh twostory um or even a three story along Shaker Road that's sandwiched between Shaker and the rail trail you know that doesn't seem like it's that high when when you think about it in your head I don't know how tall those buildings are now I think most of those are pretty pretty low level so you know maybe there is a two-story mixed juice on Shaker um but again to your point I don't I don't know that the highest whatever uh we choose um I don't know that that needs to be right there in the center of your so I'm not sure if this is even possible but um let's say we go through and set a height of 40 feet um that's pretty much what the business own is now that's pretty much what they can do um and you say Okay 40 feet but if you want to go higher you can come in under a special permit and prove your case and then let the planning board choose whether or not they want to go higher based on where they're located I know by right we have to allow a certain height and all but if they want to go above and beyond that there should be a mechanism to allow that is that something that we would then like could we write that in into the bylaw that would go into some of the later sections sections 9 through 12 okay are your rece sections of the bylaw yeah good idea then your right to make that threshold of this is what is permitted by right for any developer and to exceed those um parameters there's a special permit process okay did did everybody hear him say that what he said he said so just on the mic so um those those are all things that we can write into the bylaw um we can we can add those uh Provisions that if somebody did come in after the fact and wanted to build something higher that there would be a process for that um we can write that in within the bylaws I'm GNA ask a question related to if I can so asking another question related to the setbacks um so it seems that you'd want something proportional is what I hear the the committee saying so like the higher the building the more set away from the street um it would or the side block you'd want it to be so how do you build in I asked the question how do you build in sidewalks but how do you build in green spaces or Lawns or some sort of Green Way alongside of the buildings is that in setbacks or is it is it somewhere else yeah so that's actually great uh that's the next part of this um that great segue uh and so to start to answer the question um I think that there is um some creative flexibility here but you know you might say for example projects above a certain size potentially have to dedicate you know a certain percentage of the land area to a specified public amenity or open space provision like a pocket park or something you know really like you can be creative and thinking about what that looks like um and you can specify yeah sort of in it would be a like probably it would it would look um like it would be sort of on a project by project basis to some extent if you're talking about where exactly it might be on the project site but you can definitely um include regulations about that as well um yeah so the question here is how much space if any should each project provide but that could also you know that can we can tailor that in many many different ways projects above a certain size like I said um for example Are there specific types of open space or public amenities that you want to see for example pocket Parks plazas play areas um we have here you know Tree Line streets that sort of thing that could be in sort of a a small front setback area um yeah bring that up for discussion personally um we have a lot of parking lots um in our community and I would love to see more green space um I would love to see a requirement that um these new developments have green space associated with them in some way um it I think it's really important especially for people who are you know the treine streets and the green alleys and and trying to encourage people to move to a space um that has density uh to to give them that green space so that if you're living in a in a dense space an apartment complex that you do have still have a feel of a yard or someplace that you can go when I when I think of the town and the different neighborhoods and and Shaker and you know the center center of town um you I I agree you don't see a lot of of of what's shown there um and that that does look very attractive and it would be very nice if if it can be incorporated in but it's it's not easy to do especially from an economic standpoint um to have too much of this and and we don't really have it anywhere in town there are very few places that do but if you go to um maton Street in Springfield they're all row houses that were built in the 1800s you have that exact look of the Treeline Street the trees were planted and they had a sidewalk there there are no yards but it is a very attractive setting most people would say gee if we could build that in East Long meal that'd be pretty nice um but in in today's economic world it's it's it's going to be real tough to do do a lot of that I could tell you that there's not too many maton streets that you see around anywhere yeah so uh regarding some some of the green spaces is one of the approaches this is a qu just a question is one of the approaches there that perhaps for developments of a certain size you're asking them to in that parcel set aside uh your space for a plaza or some sort of green area as part of their plan that's an example of something that you could definitely do yeah you could make that kind of specification yeah regarding project size or yeah I guess you guys knew I had something to say um so I think the thing is we're here to try and set a vision for possibly what the town could look like in 30 or 40 years um all of these Parcels are privately owned and we're not saying that they're going to be redeveloped overnight because that's not being truthful but what we are saying is as they get redeveloped if like the Chase building it was completely torn down and rebuilt these are some conditions that we could ask for to make that area look better and then when the building next to it gets done they could do it and then the next one and um and then when when grandkids are here they'll look and say wow someone really had the forethought to think about this um but this is not something and I don't want people to think that hey in 10 years after this approved everything's going to look like this with you know line streets and little pocket Parks because that's probably not going to happen and and um to to Jason's Point um we're not asking the town to do these things it's we're not going to the town and saying we want the town to line the streets with 100y old trees and start putting all these beautiful Planters up it's a like Ralph said it's a vision for what could be possible um for the future of the town I think that's beautiful I think it' be nice it' be nice yeah very nice and when you look at this when you look at development you know to to have a to have a significant development take place is going to require a significant amount of land it's not going to be the purchase of of one or two lots that are owned by individuals right now um they're you know for for development to take place like we're talking about requires a fair amount of space and and that it it's tough to Cobble together a bunch of properties um we have a few large spaces the place across from from uh Lennox is one of those but we don't have a lot of them um and so you know that's another thing to keep in mind when we're talking about the long-term development of the town and I'm not trying to minimize anything that's been said or or point us to being not careful with what we put in place I think we have to be extremely careful to what we put in place so that develop the development over the next 10 20 30 years does work but um it also it it has to give a developer an opportunity to to do it right as well yeah so I I do want to I guess question that a little bit in the sense that I'm really in favor of making it possible for incremental development for smaller pieces of land for smaller scale developers to build uh in a way so that we're getting a nice mix I don't think anybody wants really large you know monolithic developments that take over a significant portion for example of of town I think it would be healthier pattern to see more incremental uh you know smaller scale and you know development take place over time at least that's how I feel about it and I know there are challenges to that and that's not necessarily solved with with zoning um reform alone I think there's other initiatives Our Town leadership can take to over time to make that happen but that's that's just part of the way I'm looking at what we're trying to set in place here oh I'm done yeah I'm so I think um what I'm hearing is that related to the size of the development different requirements um should be required for these um green spaces so if it's a larger development it can afford to create something like a pocket park um but otherwise I think you want to be building in the treel line streets because that's more of the like neighborhood parcel scale that can become continuous over time yeah if I if I'm not capturing that right let me know yeah that's that that that's that's my my view of it yeah so it' be in to size so the the green requirements would be tiered by size yeah I mean that's that sound that's what I doesn't make sense to me speak yeah I do think it I do think it it make makes all the sense in the world to to um have different requirements for differ Siz projects and I'm not advocating all big projects there are a lot of small parcels and and they do have to have to be um upgraded and improved as well that they're not going to become part of a big project so I just just to recap uh uh what Rebecca was saying is uh what what she was she was recapping that what um what we're asking is depending on the size of the project might dictate or might uh change what we're looking for so a larger velopment might um might be able to handle a pocket park where something that is smaller scale single parcel um that might just be something like that's the Treeline Street where they're required to um do smaller um smaller beautification um along the the streets okay okay okay keep moving next all right what else you got so now we're gonna dive into well yeah again touch on not really dive into but not just not too specifically but we're going to touch on parking requirements so the leading question is what's the appropriate balance between having enough parking and avoiding excessive paved areas okay and then this is a reference these are some of the existing parking requirements for off street parking um that you that East Long Meadow currently has it Z en code um so we have each single family dwelling one space or garage I'm not going to read through it I mean you can you can read through it here but then this is really just intended to again provide a little bit of context we just pulled out a few of these uses because um they they seemed like uses that might you know desirable in this District we left out manufacturing and those sorts of uses which we kind of figured you probably wouldn't want to see too much of or any of in the district but um yeah this is really and then I guess I can also just to sort of prime this as well shared parking um you know one sort of typical thing that you see with this kind of district is a shared shared parking areas that can be used by different different types of uses commercial residential um and they they can overlap in those uses because um the the prime periods of time where certain um businesses are active will will depend on those businesses for example like a bar we'll see you know it's highest traffic at a different time probably than know a barber shop for example right um so it's just that's something to consider as well that's that's a way that is typically used to you know allow for enough parking without overwhelming um the the center Town district with with parking lots okay so do we currently have we have single um dwelling single family dwelling do we currently have something on our books for multif family parking no okay the mixed use Village has a parking requirement though it's completely different yeah mixed use Village is something set off on its own um which will probably never happen so but what was that what was that um required spaces what were the required spaces there believe it was one per bedroom the mixed juice Village okay so we also did on the mixed juice Village um we put in some language that basically said that um although you may need this many parking spaces um let's say half of them you can keep as Green Space if you can prove that they're not all needed and that way there we got the best of both worlds we thought where if you're not having it as a parking lot then you have it as green space and at least that way there down the road what would happen is if you all of a sudden needed additional spaces because you didn't have enough well that area could be used because it had originally been designated for parking um but one of the points I wanted to bring out is um I know the current Library town hall and um that facility uh like where Center Square Grill and all is that is Shar parking right now with a separate rate um based on the fact that like the town hall the employees are there during the day uh where most of the restaurants traffic comes after 4:00 at night when there is no uh employees in town all well actually there there are some but but a lot less and I think I think that's what we really need to start looking at is some ability for shared and not only shared on that parcel um but but currently we don't allow like a business to um allocate parking spots in let's say the neighbors are down the road and we may consider you know within a certain area that you can have shared parking again the businesses would have to agree to it but um and that way there if one business is only open at night the other's open during the day they can share it parking is really is going to be really crucial because um it it's important and it's needed um but it takes up a heck of a lot of space and you see the bylaws currently were a th square feet of retail needs was it five spaces six six spaces so 10,000 square foot building needs 60 spaces to give people perspective everybody know is a chap Lane kitchen building that's 5,000 square fet on each floor so that's 10,000 square fet that needs 60 spaces well it doesn't have 60 spaces there's there's virtually nothing that meets those requirements in town except perhaps big wise parking lot and stop and shop and even stoping shop probably goes on the shared space thing so um the parking has to has to come down to the lowest possible denominator I think I would uh definitely agree I I already said we have a lot of parking spaces or a lot of a lot of black top in our town um I know that parking is important but um I I like the idea of being able to give people options and and saying you know have some green space and if we absolutely need to um just trying to figure out how to make that work and make it um something that's attractive to a potential developer um I yeah that would be that would be my biggest concern is making sure that it's not just um lots of parking lots Carol I feel like um probably don't want me using that thing P people out of here um it feels like you need to figure out the parking situation first to then back into your green space and back into your setbacks because if you're going to require parking on site that's going to be very difficult to get your setbacks with those kind of requirements and then also including Green Space right so if we can nail down the parking regulations then you can figure out if there's opportunity for green space and then you can figure out if there's anything left for setbacks feels like this has to go in reverse I I'm gonna throw one out for the board actually you guys can St um parking garage what's the thought process I mean I wouldn't want one in the the rotary end where Home Lumber was where you have access to the rail trail um two- floor parking garage or something um and again this is just for talking purposes I said that from day one yeah yeah I mean from a principal standpoint I would say I would like to start with letting developers decide how much parking they need um they're pretty good at estimating that think and dictating it with a table like this I don't think has served our town well at all we have tons of wasted space as as others have mentioned and that's value right um that that space could be used for more valuable purposes but I think the town also needs a strategy on parking so something like a garage um policies for on street parking so everyone spear Spears that there'll be traffic jams or that they'll be driving around without a place to put a car but I think with Smart Plan um and guidance for develop developers um it's it's totally feasible and it can be minimized so that the focus can be on uses for the land parking garages are tough who's going to pay for the parking garage uh it's a revenue gener erator um and I think you know I'll be candid about it if there's additional development in the center Square District there's going to be additional traffic yeah and the story it's not it's not going to be it's not going to make it easier it's going to make it harder but there you know there are some there are some potential spaces that can be considered um that the town does own currently um so it is a very tough one it's it's a it's a really tough tough problem but the other thing I'll say is all the towns that are vibrant with with little downtowns or or bigger down towns whether it's West Harford Connecticut or New Canon Connecticut or Portsmouth New Hampshire or Northampton there's parking problems and there's traffic problems and that's what that's what means it's vibrant when it's empty and there's plenty of spaces you know you have no no life down there so if we want a more vibrant Town it it comes with some goods and bads yeah I think just to add to that I think this is one of those issues that you know can adjust and change over time as well I I would not want to write this into I would not want to write in restrictive excessive parking at this early stage I think the town leadership can make adaptations over time if you know the best outcome and would drove more people and more activity minimum uh yeah to to your point Jason that's that's always something that can be edited uh down the road it's not something that we as a committee have to say you know we don't have to be so restrictive and if it's something that we see is becoming a problem we can always change that over time uh or they can change it over time so the one thing with parking is if you make it too restrictive it's very easy to go the other direction if you don't make it restrictive enough there's no land left because they've developed the whole thing so it's easy to go one way it's hard to go the other way um but with that being said and to Steve's Point uh Vibrant Community no matter what no matter how many parking spaces you put in I mean I look at Center Square Grill I'm literally parking in the library's parking lot because it's so busy which is fantastic um that's that's a good problem to have but I can still find a spot some somewhere and you know I think we have to uh encourage businesses and all to allow you know people that are going to be going to their their Nextdoor neighbors business to be able to park in their lot and I think that's something that a shared parking is the way to go yeah yeah I agree with that absolutely I'm gonna ask a question of the uh pvpc so under under shared parking um is there a way to like require like if the if the municipality created a parking garage could the developers be responsible for maintaining a certain number number of spaces or paying a inl of taxes fee for spaces in a municipal garage is there something that would create a uh private sort of Revenue stream for this public amenity I don't think that would be covered under the the town's 40R regulation I think it might be something that you would discuss as the town is exploring if the town is exploring a parking lot and you have maybe a developer that's interested and you have those conversations um I'm not aware of any examples uh Massachusetts where the developer Shing cost of development or even maintenance of a parking lot a parking garage um I mean I could foresee if you were to think of Thorn's Marketplace in Northampton connected straight to the garage from the building I don't know if there's an agreement between the marketplace and the City of Northampton who's maintaining that garage but I think that's something to explore so in case anyone had trouble hearing Ken he said that's not something you would write into the bylaw um but something that would have to be negotiated as a as a sort of public private partnership um and so that would be explored on a case-by casee basis as opposed to written into a performa in the code how much how much more do we have to go through it public comment it's very important to get the Public's okay comments okay um so that was it for parking okay um so at this time um I think we're going to go ahead and uh make a motion to um open floor for comments any seconds seconds all those in favor I okay all right I'm gonna ask you um if you could please stand up state your name and um well I'm not gonna go that way say your name and address a resident were you coming to me I didn't see anybody it's for lcat too traffic that's all I want to say name and address ER gag 24 we already have a severe traffic issue with the rotary if you're driving home uh when school is getting out or at 5:00 you're waiting and waiting and waiting Aiden half a mile before the rotary half a mile after it uh it seems like this has not been addressed everybody says well you know that's a good thing to have a to have a Vibrant Community that means it's busy but we all know that there's places that we avoid because of that reason too so it it can be a double EDG SW we have to consider the traffic thank you BR over drive um you know it wasn't long ago Ralph will remember this that uh we had a group of people in front of the Town Council and the planning board and they were making their case for keeping their backyard chicken coops and part of that discussion was the rural Heritage of our town trying to hang on to what was left we still have a few Farms we still have a little bit of a ro R area but not a lot a year later we've gone 180 degrees and we're talking about how to urbanize center square area with uh high density housing more traffic something that's concerned with me I don't want East Meadow I'm a 30-year resident I don't want East Meadow to become another West Harford I don't want us to be another Northampton um I don't think anything high density is good for Meadow and I just want you to keep in mind when you're discussing this we're talking about the town of Esau Meadow it's not the city of the me we're a town and I think a lot of on increased infrastructure requirements that are going to go along with this well it's not it's not we'll get to the responses afterwards okay we'll respond to everything after once we hear all the questions 46 Glendale Road I have a couple of things you would be charging someone to use that parking garage and they have to not have parking likely if sare Fe approximately anywhere from one to three bedroom they you spell up maybe not want them to have a car I don't think that's realistic especially if it's more than bedroom unit and you're going to make them walk from a parking garage that they have to pay for to go to wherever this housing may need so that would be one major concern we haven't anything speak up I think yeah you got to put it like in your mouth right what devop I if the gar is also I was interested if anybody on the committee has had any discussion uh with developers about what kind of idea they have aesthetically and what kind of cost investment that they are willing to make one of you mentioned smaller units vers obviously expansive development um to me that's kind of like we I wouldn't want to see inconsistency so if you are using developers that are only interested in doing the smaller unit you have somebody that maybe would be interested in doing something larger then is there any way to control the aesthetic that would be involved for what they're doing I said have anybody had any discussion anybody concerning potential development R from 110 Smith Avenue talking about parking it's all about who you're trying to attract if you're going to have 10 families basically in one building and you're going to have 10 parking spots who's going to afford that apartment or condo or whatever you're going to call that living facility you're going to need two incomes for the type of people you want to attract to your town with two incomes you better have two cars and you said only one parking spot for per family doesn't work so now if you're going to use a parking garage what about security we can't keep our own car secure in this town because people outside of this town are coming in and robbing Us blind how are you going to keep this town secure when you're parking one car at your apartment condo whatever and then one somewhere else which is most likely going to be on the street so security is a major issue for those people coming in once they see it they're not going to come so build it they'll come don't build a park Lots they won't so who are you trying to attract is what I'm wondering because with only one parking spot per living space it just doesn't work you can you also talked about the 100 foot Frontage uh or setback if you're going to use a 100 foot setback I'm thinking of some properties that are actually around the rotary if you're going to use a large setback yeah are you going to make that person's property obsolete for the next Builder are you going to shorten whatever they're going to put up by trying to add green space in the front of it so I think you're going to change that person's parcel by saying now you cannot build where the other building was we need you to put it further back uh the other one was 100 foot Frontage in front of it and you were talking about making that smaller would that apply to the entire town because you just change the square footage needed to put up a home in town because right now it's 100 foot for square footage for the homes in front in front of their home not square footage 100 foot Frontage to put up a home on a sidewalk hi pH Rosa from har Road um at the onset of this meeting we talked about visz district and it consists of was it 94 or 97 Acres yeah uh 96.5 is that's close enough 97 can you tell me of that 97 what land is available now that you won't have to disrupt anything isn't there really only one big parcel available for development no so you're asking of the 9 s Acres how much underdeveloped or used what's available now for devel what doesn't have a home or business on it right now oh I'll help you with it it's only one parcel that's available what are we talking about what are we talking about this plan is is years and years down the road and and folks God bless you for volunteering but you have to think talk like business people if you if you start to design the box and you make the developer fit in the box that's not very welcoming you should probably do it the other way around say to developers what ideas do you have here's the land that might be available and what ideas might you have about it and the planning board and Town Council will mean on it if you're starting to design a box that they got to fit in again they're business people they're not going to come in if it doesn't make sense let's take one more question and then um try to answer some of the points that were made or address them in some way drive I have a couple we've been here 60 years I just like to make a comment the planning board has done a wonderful job 60 years I think y it off to you now you want to start yeah I just have a he the chair um so first I just want to clarify um the 100 foot setback that was my uh Miss missp speaking I was when I was reading the chart we flipped through it really quick um the 100 foot set back was um that's not what was up there it's a Under Foot Frontage on Commercial um it was um 25 foot setback if I remember can go to it if business yeah you don't mind um so so that was uh my misspeaking not not 100 foot it's 25 foot um setback it is 100 foot Frontage so I just wanted to to clarify that um for you um he also asked anything would apply to the whole town um yes and then as far as the um anything applying to the rest any changes that we make here applying to the rest of the town the the purpose of the center Town district is that this District that we've drawn out is specifically this District so the bylaw that we are um creating the draft bylaw that will then go to the planning board and then go to the Town Council that is for this District um anything that is changed outside of this district is it's going to go through the same process that any other um any other changes would make it it would go through the planning board and it would uh then go through the Town Council that has that's not um what we're doing here so um we are specifically only talking about this mapped area um that we've uh carved out um and then just um one more thing um the the parking spots I know that that's kind of a a a a sore subject um my uh my mom lived in a community in um Washington DC uh it was a high-rise right next to the Pentagon and every unit got one parking spot and there were only a handful of of units that uh or a handful of second spots that units could purchase I understand that parking is a big concern um and uh that hopefully to Jason's uh comment would be something that a developer would be able to um to have answers for um what we're doing now as far as parking is it's it it's not necessarily working in my opinion um obviously as a committee we're going to talk further um and that's kind of what's great about the committee is that we're going to take a vote and then it'll go to the planning board and the planning board will then make decisions and then once the planning board makes decisions then it'll go to the Town Council and the Town Council will then make decisions so whatever it is that we're working on now uh it might be um what ends up at the end we try that again it might be what ends up on the end and it might not be so um as we're talking through things we appreciate your comments and we're taking those into consideration but you know we're we're still working through a lot of that stuff do you wanna did you goad and answer the questions you had a couple help going through the questions I can help I have a fewu so um a couple of them that were talked about was infrastructure um yes there are some uh infrastructure that's underway um currently we've received a grant to work on North Main Street with all the lighting and everything um the state has just uh announced roughly a month or so ago that the repaving of Summers Road from the rotary all the way to the Connecticut line the state is going to pay for along with Prospect Street from the center all the way to the Connecticut line um you know we've looked at uh sidewalks we have a sidewalk fund uh what we can do to improve them um but let's face it our our rotaries are rotary and that's why we were in Ripley Believe It or Not um I know the do has looked at it um we're hoping to um see if there's any improvements without taking everyone's land to put something you know overpasses or something in which would never happen so you know we're sort of limited to what we have and we have to work within that we already have the businesses and all here um as far as uh the land use you're right there's one lot that doesn't have anything but that's not what we're looking at what we're looking at is giving the ability to the owners of the parcels to be able to make changes down the road um Acres power equipment is a great example uh we saw the building the building's been sold they've completely redone the entire building well that would have been nice if we had a center Town District to where we could have given them options and said Hey listen uh you know we'd like a small green space put in front instead of the parking all the way to the building and I'm not saying that's what we would ask for but I'm saying this is examples the Chase building was just redone um I mean when we look at values um they paid an absorbent amount of money for that because it was right in the center of town they didn't care that they had limited parking they knew that that was a spot that was going to be high visibility and that's the one that they wanted if we had said to them hey you have to put this green RightWay in and plant 15 trees guess what they would have put the Green in they would have planted the 15 trees so our what we're looking at is creating a bylaw that says hey going forwards this is how we want the town to start appearing so if you're going to buy a building and tear the whole thing down and redo it guess what you got to meet these design criterias I believe we're in the process now um Rebecca if I'm overstepping of looking for members for the design Review Committee which is mandated in our bylaw that new developments and all may go through the design Review Committee once we get one which again we have to set parameters of what we want it to look like so that we don't have purple lighting shining into the rotary um you know we don't have stuff that we don't want um and years ago we did this and that's how we got all of the Zeb in the center of town um slowly over the years all of a sudden we sto mandating it well if we mandated it guess what over at Chase you would have had all brick sidewalks all new you don't mandate it you're going to get the cheapest thing if they could have done asphalt walk they would have um to save money like I said so so you have to come up with the regulations we have to as a town of what we want this to look like and then go forwards from there thank you there's a question of affordability why why we have to talked about um so um the the question about affordability um we that we haven't talked about it because we haven't gotten there yet um that is uh much further down the road um as far as the BOGO so um we just haven't gotten to it yet we're we're trying to take it's a it's a rather lengthy Drive bylaw so we're trying to take it in smaller chunks uh because we've already been here um two and a half hours so if we tried to go through it all tonight we would be here uh for a couple of days so um to answer your question about the affordable piece El um rural character you know Ral character development concentrated the rural character I you want to make one comment um yeah so regarding uh the comment on on preserving Open Spaces I certainly respect that one um everything that's in this district has already been developed to some to fully developed there's no very little left there um that's open so I'm all in favor of and you know anyone who's who's been on planning I think or or or Conservation Commission or other groups has seen you know subdivisions going up where on the outskirts of town where open space farmland or forested area um are being just paved over right and I think those are the really those are the areas I would love to be able to to save to some extent in this town by by doing this planning and putting the development where development has already happened and and can be reworked so that's that's my philosophy on on that point and I I I correct me if I'm wrong but um part of this is also we have our center field so talking about Green Space um I uh I'm a local youth softball coach center field is uh something that I very much want to make sure that is maintained I think it's um important that we maintain those green spaces and having it in District it's something that we can preserve um and maintain and and keep thank you Tom were there any others um there's trffic sorry the oh goe there's a conversation with developers um and specific projects yeah and maybe Steve you could speak to the idea of um designing the Box first and then having the developer come in as opposed to the developer luck with that one well my friend Phil L Roa posed the question of Designing the Box first and having the developer fit in the Box um yeah that that that is always a problem um and it's it it's what we do have to be careful of um there there should be discussions with either experienced developers or potential developers to get an idea what they're thinking I do think it's a good suggestion so with regards to fitting in the Box um every town that I know of in Massachusetts has zoning bylaws the zoning bylaws set out what you can and can't do in certain areas whether you can only do Residential whether you can do business and I think that's if you're calling it a box that's what we're looking to do we're looking to create a new box to allow different things to happen within the center of town um including in my opinion I would love to see a small development like what's in wilam um I believe pumi just did it um it's right on Main Street isn't it and it's a mixed juice um and again something like that I think the character of that would fit in I think we also have to look at the design and what this Town wants I mean I go to the cape and everything looks just so because that's the zoning that was put in place so that each thing I mean you go by a McDonald's and there's no Great Big M um because they would't allow it and that's really what we want to do we want to create um a look a feel for the town that allows certain things but doesn't allow other things and signage is usually a huge one um you know these flashing lights or these signs that are eight or N9 foot tall in the middle of town I personally don't think would work um and I hope the Center District would agree with that um but again it's there's still a box that you're creating but you want to be able to work with developers well that's really the box that you're working within because the zoning requirements allow I mean all different types of uh well hopefully it'll allow different types of developments whether it's commercial mixed juice or whatever and then then you got to work with the developer and that's where a design Review Committee really helps oh it's still in um and just to py back off of that with with this process um by creating this box it helps to exp expedite the development um we're giving these Developers a road map to say this is what we want this is how we want it and they can come in and they can look at it and they can say I can meet those specifications so if we're if we are as detailed as possible even with I think um if I remember correctly you were asking questions um I apologize I can't can't remember your name um asking questions about the um uh design right I so being able to do that all through this and creating that that box of of even going as far as design and what it should look like and and all of that then that then that expedites that development I actually wanted to know if anybody on committee has had any even casual conversation with any developers about potential looks potential placement you know any it's not to that everything you've discussed tonight about about what has obviously not to make arrangements or anything like that but have you spoken with any potential developers about what they might have for they might think would be something they'd like to invest in I'm not trying to suggest that anybody's made any kind of behind the scenes Arrangements but I think it's normal human behavior to have discussions especially if you know people those position at those businesses that may be investing in the town and being I'll say from a planning board standpoint thank you Bob by the way for the shout out so put that on my yearend review myself a ra but from a planning board P appreciate for the town budget um from a planning board perspective right so um I understand your side of things but from our side of things you know when a Bank comes to town or go down to Chestnut Street comes to town we don't we're handcuffed to be have to approve things either be special permit or right of use so to give the parameters or put that box up gives us the ability to say that falls in line or doesn't fall in line right so it gives us some guidance and things to do so I don't think it's a bad idea to have discussions and see what the the builders may want to do yeah anybody already been in that position I don't think it's a bad idea I just said it I think it's human and to have those kind of discussions especially from residents and from people that like I said maybe want to invest in town and be part of this process and I think laying that groundwork allows a very detailed map to say this is what we're cool we're comfortable with if you brought this to us you can come with your ideas and then we'll guide from there but if they don't have that map especially from planning board standpoint we just have to say yes right and we end up with Bri blue lights in the center or large things like that interrupt anybody the developer said toide dialog nobody's come to me but so so I'm I'm gonna jump in on this um so we've had developers over the years I was on the planning board for five years and at that time our planning director talked to uh many different developers and they would come in with a thought they would come in with an idea uh they would ask questions is this allowed is this not allowed is there any way that you know we could adjust the bylaw to allow this um and those conversations go on um I don't want to say on a daily basis but probably every every few months someone will be asking and again so do they happen yes it happens do I I know of any currently coming in asking about um hey I want to do a mixed use development can we do it I don't know of any currently that's not my that's not my question so I totally you're saying and I agree again I think that there's something around with those kind conversations whether you're talking about what this situation is or anything in the past or maybe in the future for checking out what bws are what potential development may be I'm asking if anybody natural conversations the answer is no involved in conversations about what somebody might be interested in bringing to the table the answer is no answer is no oh yeah so we discussed blam we talked with the developer up there with regards to it are just asking us what do specific section yes so ever since this conversation started developers have been as interested as everybody in this room about what's about to happen in the center of town so yes I've talked to multiple organizations multiple developers about what what's this going to look like and of course the answer at this point is we don't know yet so we're we're trying to figure out what that looks like right but they're really deferring to us no the answer is no the answer answer is no just that they're looking no yeah this not my mic s the short answer is no well but the short answer is no no everybody that every developer is asking us what we're doing the developers are asking the the town what we're doing not they're not talking to us so the short answer is they want to know how to fit in yeah answer yes come answer the question they're talking them it's not your job not trying to tatch anyone and anything I just want I just think it's okay okay yeah the we don't yeah we hav't um need to set a next meeting we're hoping to have two meetings in February if that's possible we don't have to decide it today but that's the goal so that by March we have a final bylaw for this committee to move um okay so um we are going to uh you just go ahead and jump ahead then uh we're going to jump ahead to um other business um B2 um we're going to try to set a date for the next steering committee meeting um we'll take that offline well yeah we'll we'll figure that out and then we'll put that out um to wherever um and you need to approve the previous meeting minutes okay um other business a uh we need to approve the um the meeting minutes from December 1224 uh do I have a motion in a second second all those in favor I I um call oh yeah we should do right hi who said I hi Carolyn fos I I'm a yes and Nicole Nicole can you come off thank you um other business B wtown manager report um I got a motion need a motion for that do we need a motion for that I don't think so yes motion so moved faor okay hi hey thanks everyone for uh your work tonight and thanks to everybody who came out for the meeting um we will work with the committee to set the next two meetings we're hoping to continue to move this conversation along that it's concluding by the end of February and March we have a a bylaw to forward to the planning and Town Council um a small group of members from this um committee met with Bill Raa from um the executive office of Housing and livable communities um we solicited questions from the planning board the Town Council and other members of this committee because we didn't want to um violate the open meeting law so um when we met with Bill I took notes those notes um nobody objected to the ones that I circulated early on so um they're there for your reference and we will put on the town website um they very specifically address questions about 4dr and its impact on the zone and the town uh and other than that um that's it I think that's it yep okay uh can I get a motion to adour Second all those in favor I I vote okay okay thank you