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Video-Count: 2
Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=YsnE0mVeXrU
Video-2: youtube.com/watch?v=Jx4Q09X0arc

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--------- Thank you. Uh this is the uh April 27th meeting uh joint meeting of the financial oversight committee and special town council meeting. Uh and I would like to call the financial oversight committee um uh to

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order. >> Thank you, Jim. And I'll call the special town council meeting to order. And uh before we uh start with the school committee, I'd just like to get through the minutes and get that out of the way and then we'll we'll discuss uh the school uh budget. So uh we did get

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that in advance. Uh did anybody have any questions or corrections for the April uh 23rd minutes? God bless Jackie, man. She's good. >> Good job, Jackie. >> Everything she's she did so good she sent Amanda

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today. Not today. >> Oh, not today. >> We're talking retirement assessment. It said I was looking for figures from every community. I was not looking for figures from every community. I was looking for the additional assessment

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charged to East Long Meadow each year. >> Remember there's a make assessment. So, I was looking for that number. >> Not not every in Hampton County. >> Right. Where is that Russ? >> Oh, it's in there somewhere. Three paragraph the comm town budget and not

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departments we got to handle individual town. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Paragraph number two. >> Number two. >> Uh with that correction and can you move forward that

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>> uh with that correction are there any other adjustments to the minutes? Uh if not I'll entertain a motion to approve the minutes which will have to be roll call vote. So moved. >> Second. >> All right. Uh Kathy, >> yes.

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>> Uh Anna, >> yes. >> Yes. >> Rich, >> yes. >> Jim, >> yes. >> Okay. The minutes are approved. >> Jim, do you mind if I take that for the >> Yes. Go right ahead. >> Then is there a motion to approve them as amended?

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>> Go ahead. >> Can I go? >> So moved. >> Second. >> Second. Any other discussion? Ralph, >> yes. >> Yes. >> Hannah, >> yes. >> Yes. And Kathy, >> yes.

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>> Thank you very much. So, uh, our first order of business on the agenda is meeting with school administration and school committee. Thank you very much for taking your time and uh and meeting with us. Um, obviously we've seen the

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macro part of the budget and um and I know that and I I I applaud commend whatever all the work that you've done, you know, beforehand to bring it to where you are and the and the work that you do with the town manager to make

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that budget kind of fit within the town's uh the town's finances. But because it is such a a large uh portion of the budget, it just seemed and and we did this last year and it was helpful for us. Um suggest any changes, but it

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let us understand a little bit more what you're going through and what you're doing. So uh we wanted to uh take that opportunity again and uh thank you for the information that you sent ahead of time. Um, we can know either do questions or if you want to do any kind

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of overview comment. Um, happy to to listen to that. >> Yeah. I mean, do you want me to do an overview? >> Okay, sure. >> Um, similar to last year, although with a slightly smaller deficit, we had we

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began the process with a level services budget that um somewhere around 6.24%. Um, we knew that that was something that uh the town was not going to be able to meet. So, we started working with Tom

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and Kim probably in December, maybe even earlier. Um, discussing different ways that we could strategize, um, move funding around, raise funds to somehow reduce that deficit closer to

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what the town probably could manage. um that in our discussions became 3%. We also when we submitted the level one budget wanted to be sure that people understood. So this is where level services are currently. Um some of that

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in subsequent discussions we realized that we were as we put back um school choice money that was used this year to cover the deficit last year. And that was a much more significant deficit

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because you were dealing with over 8% level services. and um we were reducing down to 2.5% which ultimately was um the increase that the town could afford. So um we had put in 450,000 of school choice money to

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cover that deficit. Uh and most of that was taken out of so this year we predominantly correct me if I'm wrong Pam, we've predominantly used school choice money for our supply accounts. Now, we haven't utilized all

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450,000, but we're keeping close track of that, so we know where we are and what true spending and true needs are. Um, somewhat of a throwback uh to the appropriations, which I know Jim and Russ

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um when appropriations was trying to move away from balancing the budget. This was probably in my first two or three years as superintendent, using free cash. I know the school committee doesn't want to necessarily always balance the budget using school choice and they won't have the rollover amount

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to do so if we continue to look at deficits as we have been >> is that because that would not that is not an ongoing source of revenue. >> It's an ongoing source of revenue. It's not an ongoing source of revenue that

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generates 450,000. We had let it um build up in the revolving account when we re-entered school choice knowing that there could be an issue with either special education that was unforeseen or something else and that would be when we

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would utilize that school choice money. >> Jim, if I could just piggy tail on that or ponytail on that. >> Piggy >> piggy back. >> Um >> I like the little piggy tail. Right. That would be cool. >> The tail dock in the game.

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>> Thought I could bring some levity to this. Um, just want to remind the the group that we we in order to make the 25. Last year, we were forced to cut 20 positions. The only uh department in town to cut any positions last year and that's 20 that we held through uh this year as well in the FT FTE numbers. this

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year in order to get down from the 624 um to the three that was proposed by the town manager looking at six additional positions to cut. Again, I think we're the only department in town that looking to cut positions again. So, I just want folks to know that we've been severely impacted by the budget more so than any

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other department and the 624 seems high, but it's we were we were what we were trying to do is put things back that we had to take out the prior year. that's being uh curriculum curriculum renewal which we this year uh which we had done last year and also um we have a

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memorandum of understanding that we will not be reimbursing our staff for continuing education that we usually spend $650 a year for uh to anyone who wants to use it. We have an agreement with them to not do that again this year which saves us another $130,000. However, it is contractually the

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obligation. So it's we do still consider it level services which is why the 624 I just wanted to explain that cuz it seems relatively high but that's because we took it out the year before and we tried to put it back in but we were not able to. So thank you. >> It's part of the mayor

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>> uh if if if you like we'll we'll open it up to uh committee members and counselors. >> I think I have two easy questions. I went through the budget completely. Why is the new age going up 296%.

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Or is that a typo? >> Um, sorry. Question. >> Where you at, Rich? >> Where? >> Uh, on the over. >> I was No, I was on the mute to see that. I don't know if you have that. >> No, I don't have the same document. >> Does it specifically say pair of professional?

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>> It's a new age. >> It was page 24. >> Each percent. >> Just double check if I'm correct. 296% uh oh sorry that's subject to peaches excuse me

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yeah >> I know that mountain view um >> that's what I think is >> you needed to add a pair of profession thank you yes >> that's what that's what it shows mountain view >> mountain view you can see the sorry forgot that for a minute you didn't um

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>> oh >> sorry Jamie piggy you piggy tailed Sorry Kathy, >> they used to um the staff used to be able to cover that but >> existing staff. So she add in >> and custo and I notic that custodial supplies went up 27%. There's no reason

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for that. Custodial supplies are reflective of the economy in general. Um and they I think it's been somewhat level over time. Yeah, some of it could have been in the um school choice revolving account this this year. Most of it was

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the educational supplies. If you look at the educational supplies from last year to the current year, FY26, you'll see that the budget lines were zeroed out. And I believe I did some of that for the um custodial to get to that dollar threshold of the 450 that uh

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>> someone referred to earlier. >> You have other questions? You can go right ahead. I got another one. I'll wait. Um the FY27 budget discussion. >> Mhm.

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>> So the professional salaries that's 4.79. I obviously it's probably administration and teachers and >> contractual and all that. >> Yeah. >> Um other salaries went up 6.71. >> So other salaries is uh pair of

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professionals custodial. Um uh anyone >> yeah no the clerical is above it for whatever reason the categories these were set up many years ago so I apologize that those are the ones that are there but so in other there's uh paraprofessionals which were in

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negotiations now with them um so I think that that's some of the the driving force behind that the custodial anybody um employees at will that we have to have per IEP um it's a combination of all of those >> so the 6.7 7 isn't anybody additional. It's just increases.

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>> In fact, no, we're down current. >> Sorry. >> Current pair of professional contract um which is expiring uh basically August 30th or August 31st. We're in negotiations. >> Okay. >> Three years ago, we were not competitive

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and probably even our more veteran paras were making somewhere on an annual salary somewhere between say 15,000 and 18,000. >> Okay. So we did have to bring that up over the course of three years. We don't think we think we are competitive with

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other pair of professional contracts and so we do think that will not be at that level in this current round okay contract that will um commence in September. >> There are some items that and it's hard because we're in negotiations right now. So, I'm not going to elaborate too much,

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but there's some items that are being brought to our attention that we do need to um to take a look at and make sure that we are compensating accordingly. So, some of that is taken into consideration here knowing that. >> Okay. Thanks. >> And I'm sorry I'm all in black. I didn't

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realize I was uh Russ. So ho how many of your uh employees that are in collective bargaining agreements have steps? What what percentage? >> Uh most okay >> similar to what has >> and the steps average how much each step

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>> contract? Um >> two two and a half three. >> Yes. >> Yeah. I would say your pair professional and your clerical probably are the two steps. >> Sorry, here's secretary steps. Okay, >> there's custodians.

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>> Do we have the breakdown in terms of percentage? >> No, I don't. I'm sorry. I could do that. >> So I I would say fair professional clerical have been more on the average of two between two and three. >> Um unit A, which is a teachers union is a little bit all over the map. Um there

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are some areas where it's 25, but then there are some areas over the course of I guess its history where it might be 375 or four. Um, and that may be because while I was superintendent, but if they

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added steps at some point that changes your uniform percentage going through. >> So that can be a negotiations um tactic. Yeah, >> it's actually one that uh has been asked of us over the course of

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>> So if you negotiate a cost of living at three and then you add a another three on a step, it's really a 6% increase >> every year. >> If that if the step they're going to for our teachers, you actually have 70% on

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the top step. Okay? So you're negotiating generally uh throughout the last two contracts it's been anywhere from 65% to now 70% on that top step uh because that's the 14th step. >> And do they then roll into longevity?

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>> They roll into longevity but generally um all they're getting would be whatever the cost of living. So next year for 70% of our teachers it's basically 2.75%. So I I asked you the same question I'm going to ask you now about. Sure.

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>> When I was on appropriations. >> Okay. >> So if you have a vacancy in a more general subject. So let's just call it uh history English something like this. How many how many applications? What's

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that? >> I said it hurts a little bit. I was an English teacher. >> Okay. Teacher to your left. It's okay. We can call it more general category. I like skilled tacticians, but I like it. >> And we're both administrators. >> Exactly.

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>> So if >> communications, >> so how many applicants would you get for a a position? >> You are correct. Um >> and then how many would you get for special ed or math and science? >> Uh so generally your um English

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positions, your social studies positions will attract more applicants. Um >> more as in 30 for every position. >> Um we're not seeing 30 anymore. It's uh if you went back 10 years, yeah, 30. >> So now it's half.

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>> Now for those positions, we may get 20 25 >> for say high school chemistry, which we've posted a number of times and had very few applicants. >> Wow. >> It could be anywhere from 5 to 10.

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um special education depending on job description and um lenture that's required it can go anywhere from zero which we happened last summer for one of our positions to you know maybe 10 15

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>> in the past you characterized your hiring as you wouldn't normally like hire someone right out of school you you ended up getting >> characterized that way >> you Did you you said you would get um you know someone who might have taught in Springfield 2, three, four years or

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>> in terms of our applicants? >> Yes. >> Okay. I thought you were attributing that look at someone >> Oh, no, no, no. I would never say that. Okay. >> I would never say that. So, are you still essentially hiring more seasoned individuals than you are?

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>> We're seeing Yeah, we're seeing uh we still see applicants from other school districts. However, I think our leadership team um is looking at all applicants and certainly as we look at budget challenges. It's helpful if we can hire someone

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who's maybe one, two years out of school or just finished their masters because Massachusetts requires them to get a masters within five years. Um, we always as just a placeholder if we have a position that we're filling for, we do put it in there as masters 8. But what

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we discuss throughout the spring as we're looking to post is let's look at the entire field of applicants and see if we can get the best candidate. In some cases, that may be someone who is fresh out of school and has some ideas

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that s mesh with where we think we're going as a district. So then that begs this question. So um is the 3% that's on the table. So I noticed in the reminder, I think it was in March or February, there was an

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article about some students not being at grade level and and the like. I mean, how does this budget impact those kids and getting them to grade level? >> It imp impacts all of our students. Um >> but those specifically

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>> in some cases it may impact um extra support that we can bring because it's going to impact tutoring. It's going to impact um extra support uh what it will end up doing if students who are on a legally binding document such as an IEP,

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they're going to get the resources and extra resources that may be for regular education students um may be sparse. And do we have a percentage of students on special ed

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>> out of district and has that increased? Has that maintain about the same? I would say I didn't look at that before I came over so I apologize because generally I do because it's that you generally will ask me. Um we were as of

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December down uh by at least uh two students if I'm correct. However, as we go through um annual review meetings, it's a constantly um changing number. So, we could have filled those two that

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had come back to the district. One of the goals though that we've been trying to accomplish the last few years is really looking at our teams, focusing on students who are out of district when they meet and do their annual review. Are we achieving goals? Can we bring

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them back? uh because it has been somewhat of a um sort of status quo that once they go out of district obviously the team at the school where they're being educated is interested in keeping them because it's uh financially

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beneficial. Um but we should be looking at it more objectively for what's the least restrictive environment for that student. >> Can I keep going? >> I get too lifted. >> Oh no, go ahead. Give me give me a breath. >> Uh just two questions. I think they're

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very factual. Um did I understand that our LBVEC uh enrollment is going up at the high school level? >> LPVC um career tech is going >> Yes. Right. Yeah. >> Okay. That is going >> open it up to freshmen. Was that this year or last year? >> Uh last year.

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>> So that of course increased that many more students that would get into earlier on. >> So that's an increase to the budget that you have to deal with. >> Yes. Obviously. >> Second question. Did you increase school choice by 25 swats? >> We did. >> We did. >> Okay. >> And you you see that money reflected in

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our budget right away. We're using it. Put it right back in. Yep. >> Uh I give you a little bit more breakdown. >> Give Kathy a chance to ask any questions she might have. >> Um actually they uh Rich covered them very nicely. I had pretty much the same questions.

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>> Very good. >> I hope I first thank you all for coming again this year. It's uh nice to have a quick overview presentation and all the detailed information. Um you had mentioned the school choice revenue and I saw in your report that so far to date

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for the third quarter was 1914. How much would a whole year look like revenue-wise? >> Is it just over 300,000? >> I believe so. >> I want to say it's just a little bit over 300,000. >> Yeah. I'm sorry it's not jumping out at me.

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>> Is it still 5,000 a student? >> It is. Yeah, >> it's it's 5,000 as a baseline and if a student is on an IEP um in March as part of the circuit breaker, I say that like

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it may be from Desessie's eyes separate from the circuit breaker, but it looks like the same mechanism and I'm um submitted through the portal. Um, we submit all students who are school choice and receiving IEP services in the

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categories as defined by Desi. We submit the services they're receiving and at that point they may deem that more than 5,000 should be coming back to the district. Um and there was a question I think earlier whether it was from uh the

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council or maybe in our discussions um as we were looking at just budget development. If a school choice uh student is on IEP and then ultimately has to go out of district that funding comes from the

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home district, not from the LPS. So they the home district needs to be invited to that team. Part of the decision- making. >> Just worth mentioning when we do choose uh slots for for school choice, we certainly look at class sizes that are

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smaller than others. So we look for spots that it would make sense um in terms of overwhelming class size, place them in a smaller entering classes too like the grade three, grade lower and grade nine. >> Yeah. Yeah. Ideally, it's the transitional years is most makes most

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sense for the student. We also look from the district standpoint or to not overwhelm certain classes that are that are definitely bigger than others. Yeah. >> One followup question. >> Sure. >> Um, so each year when I look at the state's cherry sheets that come out, usually the assessments that the town

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gets charged for students that we're sending out to other districts continues to increase. So, is there a reason that we wouldn't expend all of this incoming school choice revenue? of it knowing that potential saving some of it. We'll roll over some

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of this choice. >> No, but why would we save it instead of using it to offset how much we're getting charged? >> Because we've had to dip into it, right, like we did last year. And so we when we first started with school of choice, our intention was never to use it in the

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operating budget, right? Because once you start using an operating budget to fund the budget, then you're you're stuck with it. have to continue it because there's no way to make up those funds otherwise. Well, we're here now, right? So, we have to put inject those monies into the operating budget, right?

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But they were not always meant for that, >> right? And school choice is an account that comes to the to the school department. It's like a Medicaid reimbursement, even though that's money generated from the schools that legally goes to the to the town into into revolving spend revolving account under

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the town. So, I think just as um Mr. Thompson said we didn't have school choice for a number of years like 13 15 years and they just started it. Uh school committee voted it in I think 2012 21 >> at least >> right around co um

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>> so >> we knew that that would be a place that we would be able to to uh to uh gain programming like if we want to start a new program we talk about special ed and like wanting to do things in house. So, it was a it was a good resource for us to be able to start to build and thank

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goodness we did because we really needed it. Um, especially last year and this year. >> And if you look at it conversely, if we did use all the funds that we took in from school choice, then we would lock in any f future school committee to getting that many school choice students every year, right? So, any that we would

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lose, we'd have to replace every year. What we don't want to do is tie the future school committees to commit to school choice for whatever reason. You know, we did it 20 years ago and we stopped doing it for 10 years and then we're back in it. So, >> or have to rely on those funds

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>> for our budget. >> Conor, more questions? >> No, that's all I have. >> Uh Rush, you want to keep going now? Okay. Can >> I ask a quick question about school choice? >> How if you were to guesstimate because you because I think you guys had stated that you get reimbured 5,000 per student

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per year >> base amount. Yeah. And then there's a special ed component on top of that. >> I'm sure there's a number or if you guys could just guesstimate like how much what does it cost to educate a child like per year? Are we losing? >> So So back to my point about the number

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of classes students in the class, right? In the the 140 or whatever the class size is, right? By adding a school choice student to a classroom, there's no additional cost. Maybe the paper and some pencils, right? But we're not adding any additional staff for these people, for these students, right? So

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any school of choice student we take in there should be no additional cost. It should be mostly revenue. Yes, there's some side cost but it's not it's not a here's how much it costs us to to educate a student in East Sal. So this is how much more it's going to cost if we take another student in. Is that that

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make sense? >> So yes, I know what you're saying. I don't necessarily know if I agree with that. >> And that's why I'm asking the question like how much like I don't know if there's studies done. And I'm sure there is like is there like a general amount >> per pupil cost

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>> per pupil is um >> but that's our budget divided by the number of students right >> that's how you get a per >> I guess I didn't see that where do we have that >> and 40 >> it's in the present >> it's got it's right in the coordinates presentation >> this is the presentation >> 204

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>> so that's just >> that's the total budget divided by the number of students right so actually if you add school choice students that number will go Now >> because you're adding more >> the budget stays the same, the number of students increases but per pupil cost

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will decrease actually if you add students. >> So >> generally speaking >> when the state uh calculates that number they don't include school choice in it. >> So the number of school choice students we have they calculate separately that they don't calculate.

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>> So >> so it's actually the budget divided by the number of students. No, it is it's the it's the way the state >> students because it's >> include >> EL students. Yes. >> Um school choice students. >> Do we include the students we send out though?

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>> They do in the chair sheet. I think that's what Connor was getting at. >> We just passed the we just got to the point where we're taking in more than we're sending out last year. So the revenue that we 5,000 sending away now is coming in with different >> I totally understand everything that

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you're saying, but like in my brain I keep thinking it cost $20,000 to educate a child and we only get five. I'm not I'm not saying don't do school choice. I'm just trying to think about it. I get it. I get it. 20, right? And you add one student to it. >> I understand what you're saying. I

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understand what you're saying, but it also says 20,000 per. Do you see what I'm saying? There's two ways of looking at it. >> Right. Right. If we take five more students in, right, it's not costing the district. >> I understand what you're saying. I understand what you're saying. But I also >> Are you saying that since a big portion

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of our budget is personnel and a big portion of that pure pupil is personnel because it's a big portion of our budget. If we're bringing in kids and not hiring new personnel, then it's a net game, >> right? >> I understand what he's saying. like 1,000% I understand what he's saying.

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But I also >> that's what's happening though. >> I understand 1,000%. I understand that. But it also like if you're looking at this, it also cost $20,000 per pupil to educate. Is that correct? >> Yes.

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Not the school choice students. It cost us nothing. How about that? Anna, it cost us nothing to do the school's choice ones. >> Okay. Okay. >> Just to be clear, transportation is on them. like we do not do not understand. >> But I guess what for me I think what I'm hearing from Andrew is it the the uh

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contradiction we're getting 5,000 yet our residents are paying 20,000 for a student to go there. Correct. That kind of >> this is this is the wrong way to look at it though. That's not how you do it. So total budget divided by the number of students sets the per cost of $20,000.

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That number stays. Then we add these 25 more students in. >> None of the numbers change. That's what we're saying. the state should be giving us more money. We would agree with that. >> Yeah, >> I think everybody can agree with that one. >> What do we talk about that Rich? Right. >> I think we've gotten that one. Uh

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>> it's wait >> Oh, go ahead. >> It's kind of akin to the town's tax rate where like it has gone down over the last few years, but it's not because people are paying less in taxes. It's just because there may be more people contributing to the rising cost of

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valuations. It does present. >> It's a little different. A little different, but it's very similar in that it's a function of math. >> Okay. Uh, you had a question. >> Question. So, it says currently there's 51 students on school choice. You're

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looking to add 25 more. That'll bring us up to 76. 5,000. That brings the budget up to about 380,000. Not included anyone on IEPs or anything. My question is going forwards 76 students is a lot of additional

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students. Are we projecting that that's going to be basically a cap on it or I mean at what point do we stop >> choice? I I can't speak for future school committees. I think Mr. Thompson >> I can speak for not that I'll be honorable.

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>> Um not to tie anyone's hands >> but I think we're close to where we should be in my opinion and we've had this conversation as committee. I think um if financial situations um don't improve then future school committees are going to continue to look at it because it's a source of revenue

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as long as it doesn't impact >> the education of the rest of students. But to your point, I think the number we're at is more than we ever really wanted to get to. So to go to more is unlikely, but it's not to say that it won't happen. Yeah. And I I guess and I do understand what you're saying if you

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got one other student in um but from the teacher's point of view instead of having let's say 18 students in her class now she's teaching 20 >> so her time is stretched thinner and thinner and at what point is there a breaking point and that's what I was

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looking for. I'm sure the school committees also talked about it. >> The enrollment was down 113 students this year >> and there's optimal class sizes for each grade level. As you get bigger, as you get older, the class sizes optimally get larger, right? So, we try not to overwhelm, you know, the smaller, but we

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put them in the small ones for that reason. Yeah. >> Uh, you have another question. >> The class sizes. >> The class sizes. >> We can't put kids there. We're not going to put kids there. >> The class sizes are already at

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>> Yeah. So, correct thing. Um, that's what I had heard in the past that the class sizes a lot of them are at pretty much max and >> and those are going to be doing. >> Uh, before we return to Russland, did you have any specific question? >> Thank you.

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>> Okay, Mr. Denver, you want to continue? >> All right, I'll ask one then you ask next. >> Okay. So, I think we I think Jim might have sent over this morning a list of items that we were looking for additional information on all the special accounts.

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How much was in each one? What was expended from each of the special accounts over the last 3 years? So, we're going to get that. >> Well, there was a little confusion when you said special accounts. Were you referring to special ed accounts or were you referring to revolving accounts?

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>> Revolving accounts. Yeah, revolving accounts. That wasn't clear to me and I'm sorry. I I had meetings today and and some other things which kind of just literally moved from one facility to another. So, we're all still getting recognized. So, thank you. >> You just want balances, Russ. So, we or >> balances and expenditures.

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>> There's a ton of activity though through >> I know like >> the last time I was on this committee a couple years ago, we were all very pleasantly surprised at what you were purchasing out of the different accounts. And the discussion was no one knew you were doing all of that. And I

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think your comment was well if you watch some of our school committee meetings you would know. It would be kind of interesting see that. But it brings me to the question on it's my understanding and I say that in case I'm wrong um that now

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there's free breakfast and lunch for each child. So, how does that imp >> not not free breakfast? >> Okay. But it's free lunch >> in >> some cases you have >> for everybody. >> Uh that free lunch, universal free lunch. >> Yeah. Does that impact the amount of

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money in the cafeteria account? >> Um it's >> well it's a different revenue source. We still get revenue per student and Lori Paul, our food service director, has to track students as to the type they are, whether they would have been free or

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would have been a paid. I know it sounds silly, but she does have to track that and there's a different amount of revenue that she that's for her separate um >> that's supplemented by the state, right? >> Correct. Yes. Correct. >> So when they went to free lunch, the state increased >> funding, >> right?

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>> So it doesn't cost the district more. The revenue just comes from the state instead of the students. >> Okay. >> And actually food services is separate from our operational budget. They're self- sustaining. >> Okay. Good. So I thought in the your quarterly report it it had indicated

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that breakfast and lunch remain free for all students. Is that >> breakfast lunch does remain free for all students. Breakfast is a combination. You have some students who qualify for free breakfast. You have some students who pay for breakfast. >> So if I misspoke there, I'll I'll double

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check on that for you because I really did think that they were all >> Oh, okay. >> that out from Lori. And and does the reimbursement from the state cover the entire cost or just a portion? >> It covers um the universal free lunch to a point.

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>> It doesn't cover um your alaka cart menu which is uh where a lot of our students especially in the uh later grades go to. >> Okay. >> That's still revenue coming in. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. >> See I wrote it in my uh Oh, I said

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remember. So for school choice, which is we should stay away from like teenage boys because that >> you only get one lunch. So >> Oh, that's true. Okay, >> we got to buy the second one. >> They have to buy the lunch. >> So is that your question that you then wanted to pop over to Mr. Ferero or

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>> No, no, there's a another question if he wants. >> All right, go ahead. >> Um, >> I got a couple more. A >> little taken a back here on the transportation cost. It's going from 3.3 to 11.6. That's a projected uh in terms of what we're spending this year. We obviously

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haven't finished the year, right? >> But um transportation costs are um have not been as >> uh regulated is a a good word. I would just say monitored. um they've been

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allowed to increase and especially Specialized Transportation. there seems to be no cap to >> how high they can go and they can then let's say you have contracted with a company uh and that's working at least

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from the district standpoint well can enter into the summer or worse be exiting a summer thinking you have that transportation go and they can which has happened to us uh and then you're around because this

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transportation that you need to deliver >> the students still pay to ride the bus, >> right? >> And the fee is 270 $150 a day. Yeah. >> 270. I was principal back 15 years ago. >> Oh. Well, yeah. >> 270. >> I I think we've gone up. No.

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>> No. No. >> School. >> And then we cap it at two um two students per family, too. So, you only pay up to 540 and then rest ride. Yeah. >> As someone alluded, the uh transportation, forgot who was saying it, might have been you, Tom. There's a

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lot of um busing at I mean a lot of parent drop off instead of buses. We are going to be down one bus next year. We're reducing one bus. >> Uh our lines are full. >> Follow up to that. >> Oh, go ahead. >> Y >> of course years ago the town used to

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operate its own busing. Would you say that given like the number of carline students as opposed to the number of buses that were at home, even in light of these >> higher increase in transportation costs, is it still a net benefit for the town to not be doing it or is that math

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changed now? >> I mean, we haven't dove into it, but I would say, Connor, that one of the biggest benefits to the town is the we don't have the employees on their payroll. >> Correct. not only now in terms of benefits that we'd have to pay out or the uncertainty of them but also retirement benefits.

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>> So when we decided collectively to to do it that was a big portion of it. >> You also don't have a fleet of buses that you own and every year >> it was on capital planning where >> we had discussion every year about >> I had at least one if not two buses on

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our capital plan every year. Oh, that um >> he's received one or two. >> That's the capital. >> Uh Mr. Denver. >> Well, that led He just gave me a great segue right into >> I'm here for you, Russ.

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>> So, your summary of five-year capital plan. >> So, we have this kind of in front of us, I guess. Um question is looking down the road, what's the next school that will need major improvements andor what is next

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school that you might need all new school and are there things in the capital plan that could help prolong the life of some of those? I would say that um actually the school committee has done a a really

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good job of doing exactly what you said at the end there which is how do we prolong life schools we have um currently uh some of the things that have helped us well one I I'll put a plug in just for our DPW they're

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phenomenal um and they've kept certain things going for far longer than they should be going um case in point would the the um modular classrooms that are just now being replaced at Mountain View.

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>> Their life expectancy was finished when I started as a superintendent 16 years ago. And we kept them going. Well, we there was my hammer, but offer was able to keep them going well into

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really 2022, I think 2023. um we stopped really using them probably in the 24 25 school year and this year we're finally able to uh replace them. Um but all of our buildings over the years have um received some type of

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capital improvement and um just this year uh with the town's help and MSBA's help um Maple Shade will get an entire roof replacement. Um and so we're going to be um in their accelerated repair program which takes care of roofs,

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windows and doors and boilers. Um so that would be a good way to continue to go. Um Metobrook has received new windows and doors and a new roof um which uh has been phenomenal. So that school is in good shape.

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>> So just a guess crystal ball 10 years down the road, no school replacement. I can't hold you to it. Yeah, I won't I won't down the road, but um >> even if we >> Yeah. And yeah, I mean Russ, we've talked about some reconfiguration in

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terms of uh class class um alignment, which is a long way off, I think. Um so that could change thing. Um just to kind of answer your question, probably Maple Shade would would be the um most in need of either repair or renovation. As as Gordon alluded to, we're doing the roof this year. Uh and the SC school

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committee had a lengthy discussion on well, should we do the roof? Because if you go with MSBA, then you have to commit to 20 years. >> 20 years. >> 20 years with the building or if not then you have to pay back a portion of that based on how many years you've gone through which we figured well if it's 15

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years and we decide on a maple shade project or a combination and that again would be a future school committee. Um then that would be where you were looking but other than that like Gordon said the buildings are in relatively good shape. Certainly the brand new high school is going to help us. We're going

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to use that a ton. Birchland. We just did a lot of the roof on that and you know, it's hard to believe it's 26 years old already as our now newest building. Um, but we're in decent shape. I mean, could we use newer and better? Yeah. But

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we're doing we're doing pretty good and thankfully because capital has invested and we've sent money on them. Yeah. >> So, I walk Maple Shade every morning and the drop off at Maple Shade is a thing of wonder. Yeah. Let me tell you, >> it's just >> probably one of our >> And there's a teacher that stands there

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and greets every single kid and he knows every kid's name. It's just wonderful. Really, really cool. So, >> it's a great way to start the day. >> Yeah. So, um, just because this is what I do, um, I looked at your unit A

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contract and I saw something in there that I don't remember seeing in the past, and that's the last year 7 12% increase if they give a 12 month notice. >> I don't know about a 7 and 12% increase, but there is a 12-month notice retirement bonus.

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>> There's something on the bottom about um, >> so like when was that added? So, uh, that we did look at, uh, the oldest contract we have in, um, our files, which have been jumbled a little

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bit over the last week, uh, was 1994. And so there was a retirement benefit, um, clause if they gave 12 months notice back in 1994. Now, whether the formula has been tweaked over time, that I don't know.

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>> And Pam, did you say the seven and a half% was on stipens? 7% it's I I believe the bottom of the um >> outside their regular salary >> is the three years of like if they did coaching and they get a stipen for that they get 7% of that total added to the

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the formula for retirement >> instead of 100%. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Can I just ask one last question? I go to promise it's my last roll here. >> I am on a roll. So I mean I think you mentioned you know personnel is your

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largest expense every year. So if you've got increases of 479 287 671 etc. And how long is that sustainable those numbers and then what happens?

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Yeah, it's uh it's something that um is cyclical I think uh when you think about negotiations because you have the history um in terms of contract negotiations and meeting with us as a member of appropriations. There were a

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number of years in the middle of my tenure and this is my 16th year where um increases for unit A were 175% uh 2%. It was only in the last really

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two contracts where they edged up and finally in this final contract um that has its third year for next year it actually hit 3% again where I think in the earlier 2000s not 2008 but um that I

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think all things crashed at that point if I'm if I remember correctly uh 3% was much more the norm >> um but it definitely trended downward Um I can speak to that because I know my contract trended downward as I negotiated subsequent contracts but um

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in the last few years as we were leaving COVID then it started to move up and as you know because I think you've participated in negotiations you have to be fair and open and um you know when they're presenting a history of

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increases of 1.75%. >> I I am not saying you're not being fair. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm not. What was I saying? I'm just giving >> I'm just looking at the numbers. >> Correct. >> Yeah. >> And and so you're right. And so one of the things that I think >> um

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ELPS does really well is they work collaboratively with the different units. We have very good relationships and so hard. But we can say listen one of the things we can say you know in the next negotiations meeting we just met

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with the financial oversight committee and they're not sure that we're going to it's mostly Mr. Fero's fault but that we're going to be able to afford this but basically they do understand and they are aware and watch sort of where we are in the budget process

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what's going on with other costs and so forth. With that said, I can't turn to any one specific unit or one individual contract and say because inflation is going up or transportation is going up maybe 11% I really can only

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offer you 1%. You know, we still have to get there >> in a open negotiation. >> You have to take care of your people. >> Well, yeah. But you're just running up against a limit, >> right? Yeah, you're right. And what happens,

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>> right? I think that's kind of what I'm >> get into these discussions. >> Yeah. >> But how do you Russ and I don't know if you have an idea, but how do you get away from these steps? >> Ideas. I only ask. >> But I was just saying like steps allow us to pay less. Without the steps, you'd have to pay everyone the top amount,

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right? >> So, philosophically, I don't I don't know, and you might know because you're in this industry. Is there a real difference between a thirdyear teacher and a fourth year teacher or a seventh year teacher and an eighth year teacher? And can you skip a year or two? You

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know, there are there are other communities that do it. They're out there. You know, I'm just not saying, you know, I I've been pointing out as much as I can to this group all the little extras that are in in different contracts in the town and those are the

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things that really add up over a course of time. And so, do you need to say, "Okay, we can't do this anymore because if we've given a $10,000 bonus to a fireman who left after so many years,

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is that $100,000 over six years? And could that 100,000 be used somewhere else?" I mean, I'm just making up numbers as we go. And so, those are the things that you try to be as creative as possible. And I'm sure you you do your homework. I don't worry about you, Gordon. I know you've done a fabulous

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job. So, but that's I worry about all of a sudden you hit the cliff. >> Yeah. >> So, >> no, it's that keeps me up. I just >> and and it's a it's a question not just for education question for for the town town overall because uh you know

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contracts uh outside of education have those step increases. So, you got step increases, you got merit increases, you got educational benefit uh popups. And so the typical increase is higher than

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normal. So you got a you have a a engine that runs faster than you know and and less ability to control it. Whereas in the you know private industry at least if it's non-union they they they deal with it. Plus we have the health

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insurance benefits that then go on with the retirement. We have retirement benefits that then go on. So, it's an engine that is at some point it's going to catch up to us. >> Um, >> now I promised to zip my lip and not ask

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another question. >> Other questions? Russ, >> that's all. >> Okay, good. >> Um, >> did I just add something to Russ? You were asking earlier about the different um steps. I just wanted to be clear that on the secretaries, they only have three steps. >> Yeah, >> I was looking at the teachers contract.

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That's what I was doing. >> Yeah, it was just it's the teachers and even custodians, they just have two steps and Um, two points if I could real quick. I know in the last meeting you had a question about one of our capital projects at Metalbrook in terms of the paving. If you had that map with the shaded areas, all those shaded areas are going to be paved. So, what we're doing

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is actually getting more parking spaces where the grass is. I think you might have asked the question. >> Yeah, I only saw the sheet that I got only had two spots and it looked like >> those two off of Parker are gr those two grass areas off Parker and one of the grass areas off of Porter are going are turning to asphalt. The second thing I

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just wanted to bring up is I saw that um the electrical uh the um budget for electricity uh for the high school has been cut out of this budget and I know we have the funds from the green uh energy but I just want to put it out there that that's going to have to be put back in the budget right in a couple

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years and that'll be a huge increase but I just want to make sure that everybody sees that it's a function of just paying with what the money we have instead of this huge cost for our new school. Right. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. So, we're going to incrementally >> get it in the budget. >> Okay, great.

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>> Using the >> credits, >> the fun. >> I just didn't want it to look like all of a sudden we have this explosive energy cost, but Okay, awesome. >> We would if you didn't have the rebates. I think the way I understand Tom's strategy is to use that rebate total

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over a course of a few years so that the increase is more on a you know >> regular regularized basis as opposed to one big huge >> and our either one low and then the huge pop or >> then our PV should come online in a year

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or two. I was going to say especially during the first year. >> No, no, no. >> Okay. All right. >> Um, >> agreeing with you, >> Jim. I have a quick question. Um, as far as the school goes, obviously everyone seen South Hadley and that their override got voted down. Um, I think the

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reason it goes to the school is because obviously the largest portion of the budget. At some point in time, if we project out five, six, seven years, it looks like we're going to be running up and against that. Have you guys done any long range planning in case we get there and we

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don't get an override or something like you had talked about a few years ago the financial cliff? Um the more you look at it at some point it's coming. Um you know you can only sustain it. >> Why is it coming though Ralph? I don't know where it's what's prop two and a half and expanded growth there's only so

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much additional revenue coming in >> slowing growth. >> But the problem is is expenses keep climbing. So, at some point you get to that where the two don't match and you've exhausted most of, you know, all the little things like Russ was talking

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about. You know, well, we've grabbed this out of this and this out of that and >> I think that's what happened to South Hadley and they're looking at $9 million and it's that's a lot of money for one year and >> I don't know where they're coming up with it. I I wouldn't want to be in that

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seat. Um, but I think it's something where we try and look out over a five or 10 year plan and and I don't know if the school committee's looked at any of that. I know um at least among some of us we've talked about where would the cuts even

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come from and um >> and that's that's the biggest challenge is identifying where where where are you going to cut. So what we've been doing is >> it's scary. >> Well, yeah. Look at it. >> I'm being scared. how badly nine 9 or 11

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million override in order to >> I think things are things are uh cyclical cyclical and unpredictable what I found over my time in this seat um that it's hard to project what it's going to look like in 5 years for all of us right not only revenue but expenses

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so I mean um we've tried our best to those financial cliffs right we we've looked at that every year so I mean I guess that's the best we can do collectively So uh thank you. I mean I I will say this uh

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when I look through the presentation and the quarterly uh report etc. I realize how how many things are involved with your with your budget and with running the schools. is kind of mind-blowing in my I mean it's like a whole another

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specialty to to understand and and all the various grants and revolving funds that add to your spending which is looks like it's over $4 million of additional revenue that you manage etc. Um, and

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when I look at substantial progress towards targets, I don't know if those questions about, you know, feeling welcome at school, whether those are questions that you're you're made to ask as part of that or >> No, it's actually those are questions we want.

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>> You came up with the things that we want to make sure that all our buildings have is a climate where um all students feel welcome and that they belong and they can be. >> All right. I'm glad to hear that they were your questions and not something that the state was telling you to ask.

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>> But the research shows that the more kids feel like they belong and they feel safe in the class and the better they do academically. >> Good. >> So, >> um my only other question was in enrollment um you had mentioned that between this year and the last it was

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down 115. How has the enrollment over that kind of the period of 25 through through >> finish your question? Uh the last few years we I would say the last five years we have declined

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slightly each year and um interestingly enough we do you had asked um do we do any kind of projection we um work with NASDAQ the New England uh was it school council development development council

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um educational anyway NEDC um and uh interestingly I I'm attributing it They didn't put this in their their uh response this year, but um attributing it to the high school. They see in the next three years our grades 6 through 8

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enrollment climbing, excuse me, 6 through 12 climbing and our elementary grades either staying flat or declining. Um the one thing that uh we knew because we also uh work with the um town uh on

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the census in terms of getting that information uh birth rates down uh over the last um 10 years birth rate is has averaged about eight fewer births. Um, and it definitely hit I would have predicted the other way,

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but um, this was the first kindergarten class uh, from pandemic. I would have predicted that might have been a spike and it actually was a decrease. >> So, capacity wise or whatnot, you're fine because the enrollments are not

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pressing you at all. >> Right. And actually the new high school is not the old high school uh which we're currently in was designed probably for over a thousand students. MSBA um would not fund duplicating that.

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>> Uh so this one's designed for somewhere in the middle 800s. >> So can you identify I mean mentioned the income. Can you identify where those 113 kids went? Like did they go to private school? day.

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>> It's a combination. Um, yeah. I mean, >> do I know we're all 113? No. But what I do know is that um, >> how many kids from Esau met me do school choice elsewhere? >> Uh, I think it's something like >> 40 something. >> 48. >> 48. >> Okay.

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>> Um, a lot go to uh, they also charter schools. >> They might do Pioneer Valley um, >> charter school for uh, the dramatic arts. Pioneer Valley >> performing arts. >> Performing arts. Thank you. Chinese. >> Um they also in the Chinese immersion.

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>> Um >> interestingly. Yeah, I was going there. Nice. Um we have school choice in a variety of school systems around us. Uh more than um when I was looking into it. I knew we had school choice to Long Meadow and we have some school choice to

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Hampton Wilberham, but we have school choice to Mson and we have school choice, I believe, to Chapi um and other school districts. How many kids go to Pope Francis every year? >> I was going to say a lot of it's >> a good number. >> I don't have the exact number. But then

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also what we're seeing, sorry, and this is where um Pam was going. We're seeing an increase of students. There are two um accredited onlinemies that the that Desi looks at

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as official public schools. Um, one's called the Greater Commonwealth Academy and it's out of Greenfield and the other one is uh called Tekk Academy. Actually, I'm not sure where that's located, but we seem to lose more to TEKA than we do

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to Greenfield. Um, and students can apply, get in, and it's actually more than choice. Not $5,000, it's $12,000. Um, so so much so that the school committee were allowed to look at that

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last year and the school committee did vote in a cap of 2% of your entire enrollment. Um, would be that would be the cap. If you reach 2% then that's as many students as >> for the online schools. >> Oh, thank you. >> And just to connect back what you were saying about belonging, a lot of times

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the kids that are going to these online schools are going because they don't feel like they belong in our schools, right? So we really want to improve that so that we're not losing kids. And we're hopeful the new the new high school will keep students in the district. I mean, it's a big drastic change. So, that may change people that leave for different

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newer, nicer high school. Yeah, we're going to have the nicest one around. So, >> any other questions for educ on education? Yeah, go ahead, Connor. >> Um, I know the last couple years um you had mentioned that special education was an especially difficult uh thing with

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different situations that you had. Would you say that that is not so much the case this year and projected moving forward or is that kind of >> talking out of district tuitions specifically the high increases that you had with those? >> I I would say um sorry

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>> I I would say that um the challenges are still there. >> I think we're um identifying them faster and working through them better. Uh, but I wouldn't say that it's no longer a challenge. Now, I think the students um

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whether they end up being on an IEP or a 504 or they're just um in the regular egg class, um students are coming to us with far different needs and we saw students coming to school 5 years ago,

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10 years ago, and certainly 16 years ago when I started here. That's why >> percent of the school age population with disabilities has steadily increased not just in Massachusetts but you know nationally >> and what is different is that last year for this current budget that we're in

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FY26 we budgeted accordingly to what we needed which was some of the bigger issues with um you know contracted services were up sub substantially um yeah and the out of district tuition so now we're budgeted better if that makes sense. Okay, sounds great.

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>> There was one other question that had come up when we were reviewing the insuranceances uh part of the bud of the town budget and it was workers comp uh which had was showing a pretty big bump u and uh the way Tom explained it much

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of it was coming that increase was coming out of the school system. Is that something you're familiar with or >> certainly familiar with uh staff members who unfortunately have gotten injured and end up on workman's comp. I can't speak to necessarily that we were the

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sole cause for the increase, but um >> maybe not the sole cause, right? >> Yeah. But what I can >> this is the biggest increase that we've seen. >> It's usually DPW and school departments anyways, right? That cause the >> So what I can speak to is um what I was

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just saying is that um students arrive to school with far different needs than they've arrived in the past. And if we're going to, and I think we should, be managing students in the home

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district, it's taking skill sets that are far different. And so we need to continue to evolve as a staff. But unfortunately, behavior is far different than what we've seen at least >> kids behavior >> and kids behavior in sort of unpredictability because a lot of these

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things uh where people get hurt. It's something that's spontaneous um in terms of depending on how close you may get to a student and if the student is disregulated um and then moves ahead quickly that yeah that could end up

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being broken nose, concussion and so forth. >> So I'll clarify to say that that's just the data point not that the school is doing anything wrong. No, no, no. >> Want to make sure there was no bit of a negative connotation there, but that's just the data point that they've shown

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>> in behavior in terms of what you're, you know, experiencing versus what you might have experienced five or 10 years ago. >> Correct. And so I mean that that thinks that's a thread that actually goes through this entire discussion >> as you were talking about or we were

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talking about or at least I brought up paraprofessional contract. um they're a huge part in how we support students. Bringing them to a more competitive contract and wage over the last three years was imperative because we were not

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filling roles. Um and the job we're asking them to do is far different than the job we asked them to do, you know, 10 years ago. And it involves constant retraining to deal with different dynamics that

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students are presenting. >> Wow. Different world from when I went to school. That's for sure. >> Yes. >> Uh any other questions for the schools? Uh hearing none. I any questions you have for us or >> were you thinking maybe four or 5%.

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>> I was kind of feeling that from us. I don't Uh if not, I I will just say on behalf of all of us, thank you so much for coming and talking it through for us and giving us a chance to ask our questions. Uh appreciate it.

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>> We always appreciate the time to talk about what we do. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> If you want, I can come back next year. >> Don are coming. >> You guys all right. I'd love that. I'd love that. We're going to have a standing meeting

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>> guys will be here the rest of the evening if we want to come say hi >> no not that one Frank's office the high school office >> up front >> I just didn't mind >> I kind of pepper

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>> I feel like >> amazing what I feel with >> it's not going to be a loss you I someone attack you, sir. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Gordon. >> Thank you, Gordon. >> Hey, how are the new offices?

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>> I knew we were you were >> How are the new offices >> over at Carter Monday? >> Yeah. >> Great. Building games. >> Throw you guys on the line. >> Could be action line. >> We need an extra hand. >> So, you thought 4:30.

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>> Crazy, huh? How you >> I didn't think we had that much time. >> This is good. We need a lot of questions playing card. The year is unappropriate to hear. >> We did have so much edition years ago. We should bring it back. >> We probably should have brought it back

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to put it in the time category. Probably >> the 250. >> So, uh that would have been cool. >> It is uh 4:36. Um we've all listened to the we've seen the school budget. We've all listened to the to the discussion. Uh question for

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you. Do you want to have a chance to absorb it and come back uh Monday uh when >> is it next Monday? >> Next Monday to vote on the budget or do you feel comfortable on the budget as it

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is now or we can you want to put it on the agenda for Monday? >> I'd like to get the information we requested just so that we have a complete picture. Right. >> That's all. I I don't have any issues. No, >> but I would just like to have all the >> We'll uh we'll make it the an agenda item for 54.

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>> Okay. >> So, we left off our um 423 meeting uh still enshed in the capital. >> Yeah. >> And uh running around today. >> Okay.

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>> Get a lot of that information. So, I'd like to see if we can because our what we've got on on us is capital budget and then the um solving funds and enterprise funds and we have one meeting one

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certain meeting left four. My my guess is going to we're probably going to need that 57 meeting, but depending on where we get, but let's see if we can get through the capital and and uh vote on that and then see if we have time to get

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through any of the uh the uh revolving funds and enterprise funds. I will uh upfront say I need to stop the meeting at 5:20 because I have a another meeting at 5. I need to stop the meeting at 5:15

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for the Zoom account. >> Oh, >> well, there you go. >> I mean, unless they go long, but >> So, you have to stop recording us at 5:15. >> All right. You're >> all set, Jim. It's not your fault. >> Yeah, I'll have plenty of time for the

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next meeting. All right. Uh so why don't we move back to the and it there was uh some questions and uh >> can't even see this >> and uh we had a question on the fire station parking lot

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>> dump truck u terms of the yeah the dump truck and the contingency uh and where else do we have >> the metobrook parking lot project have down and Connor asked about the police

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cruises. >> Yep. There was a Denzel question. There was the INI question, Water Man, >> right? >> Compliance and then the Spade Ardent one as well, I think, which I I tried to get to most of them today.

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>> Uh I was off last week and I tried my best to take the whole week off. um >> contract. >> It I've already taken my obligated week off. >> It's only April. >> Fiscal. I'm a fiscal.

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>> Oh, you're a fiscal. Okay. All right, then. That's fine. Um, so the the the parking lot for the fire station, the the the higher number was the number and I'm still Mark's still looking into it

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because there's quite a bit of permitting that's going to have to happen through D. And so right now it's the whole parking lot, but based on our conversation this morning,

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there may be some things that we're not going to be able to do based on what D is going to require us to do. Again, we've had this conversation. There is a lot of settling that has happened with the organic material underneath the site >> and Yes, it needs to get paved. We haveund

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million dollars of equipment running in and out of there 20 times a day. Um so we're going to need to pave. The question is what are the limits of this pavement? And um like Ralph pointed out,

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is that fabric going to work in this application? And I think uh we need to get a better answer from D uh in terms of what they're even going to allow under the permit. Uh if we can't compact I mean I don't know if you've seen that parking lot, but there is a there is a

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crater in one of the parking areas that's maybe 15 in deep and it's been filled already. And so, um, we're going to have to have a further conversation with D about what, um, the limits of this

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pavement are going to be. Ergo, this this price tag could change. Um, this is based on the conversation that I had with Mark this morning. >> So, the price tag could go up. >> I don't think it will go up, Jim. I

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think we'll we'll we'll pave $250,000 worth of the parking lot. Like I said, we at minimum, we got to figure out a way to pave in front of uh like the front of the building where we've got the fire trucks coming in and out of the garage and then the the the parking area on the side.

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>> So, so the request then the need is there and something needs to be done this year. >> The need has been there for eight years. Obviously, >> I've been on the Yeah. Uh so and and it the question then is what's proposed

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specifically may not be >> correct the works >> and what's allowed. So you may have to change what you're doing but to the degree that the 250 goes towards the parking lot you may have some part that is not paved.

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>> That that that's just the mathematics of it. Yes. because it's it's sounding like in some of these areas we're going to do far more work than we planned on doing. >> Um and the permitting piece at this point uh tends to get a little more expensive than you want it to and you

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everything we talk about up in that area whether it's the transfer station, police, fire, the EP is all over us for everything and all those applications cost money uh and usually end up with some sort of engineering design. Um, so,

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um, I I feel like I have more questions now than I did yesterday or or Thursday. >> This is more like money towards >> the which I don't I don't now I'm not so excited about. Right. Here's a here's a problem that we we know we need to fix.

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Um, and so I think maybe it's sort of behooves us to to figure out what that number and the project parameters look like say before the before the like budget hearing, right?

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like we we need to um we need to figure out a little bit of more information before we say that this 250,000 on the capital plan is going to pave the entire parking lot and everything is going to be fine for 20 years cuz that won't be the case. It's

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just not the case. >> Questions? >> So, just thinking down the road, we've talked about a safety complex. >> Yep. >> Um >> well, some people have. >> It's been talked about. Obviously, we need a new police station. Um,

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is that going to affect if we if we pave the whole parking lot, are we going to be digging it up in 5 years to put a police station attached to it or I I said, I hate to throw money away. >> Me, too. >> You're correct. I I mean, in front of

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those doors and all, I know they've been repaired. They It's got to be done. It keeps sinking. You've got heavy equipment in and out. Um >> my my problem is and this is going now this will just open up a whole other car can of worms. Do you want to put a multi-million dollar building on that

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site? >> It all depends on the reason it's sinking. >> Well, we knowing >> the reason there was a reason that spot was picked for the building is the only thing that's not sinking thankfully. >> Well, that's where the test borings were

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done. >> Right. Right. So, so and they probably put pilings in and footings and and so it's structurally sound, but we we might not even have that option on that site. Nor would I >> quite frankly feel comfortable spending what we pay per square foot now to put

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up a building. >> I mean, that's a 3540 million building, brand new. And that that's a tough ask on that site. >> Barn. >> Yeah. Well, a like a like a loft like a

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hay loft. So, so Tom, are you proposing uh you're going to you're going to mess with this article in terms of what you would want to have proposed for the for the budget? >> I think we really need that answer from

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DP on what these added costs might look like before we even know what what where how far $250,000 is going to go on that site. And if the and if if it's too far, then maybe this gets shrunk down to the point where we're just paving in front of the

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bays and maybe fix the big hole in the parking lot and and you know, sort of see where we end up. >> So, >> for me, that sounds reasonable. Does that >> to me though? >> Yeah, I'm okay. I mean, we won't have a number to quote unquote approve, but I'd rather you take the time and figure out

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what really needs to be done rather than >> Yep. >> Yeah. I think we talked about before. It doesn't make sense for us to just throw an undetermined amount of money at it until we know what it >> we're stopping doing that, right? Yeah. >> So, Ralph, you had a question on the

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dump truck, the contingency of 20% I believe. >> Yeah. So, uh, they they did say that that this is the number that they're carrying with these bigger vehicles at this point based on price fluctuations and I think tariffs was used and, um,

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again, they've this quote would they got if it if we didn't think that we wanted to carry that much contingency and the price came in at a 10% or no percent then we're good. If it comes in over well then we'd have to find some other

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appropriation which isn't terrible if you didn't want to budget it. Um it's really they're saying yes that this is how they want to carry these numbers but if we don't want to appropriate the money at that number if go ahead

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>> I was going to say is it unreasonable to think then like I get that they needed to get the quote to submit it to you originally back in the fall but is unre is it unreasonable to ask for an updated one say at the beginning of May so we know what a more realistic number is as

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we're ready to approve the budget. We we could we could we could make that part of the process from now on, I suppose. Right. Just try to go get the the problem is that every time you ask for a quote that that is work for somebody to have to go do, right? So, um in the end, we're eventually going to buy the

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vehicle. So, I think that that's not asking too much. Um but that's something that we can certainly look at for all these vehicles as we get close to we we're tweaking this thing the whole time until we vote, right? The entire budget based on a number of things. So, So, if

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you uh if you leave the 20% in and we buy the truck and it it doesn't require the full 20%. That be does that become like a closed out capital project with a surplus and then it gets earmarked towards it can be applied towards a similar type?

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>> We've been we've been rolling those accounts back into the general fund. >> Oh, right. Back into free cash. >> Okay. >> Answer that question. and and based on years past, this is a common practice now. Uh not not every quarter,

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but a couple times a year, they're going through all the capital plans and we've been sort of going through them at the council level to make sure we don't have this big long list of accounts with money in it, >> right? >> Um your specialty finding money and just putting it back into the and closing

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these accounts out. >> Other questions on the chart? So, I understand that and I mean in practice it sounds great. Um, we've had situations in the past where police cruise didn't cost as much and uh the thought was, hey, we've got this extra

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15,000 that we're going to put towards this or that. >> Y >> and especially with a big dump truck like this, you can add a lot more bells and whistles, >> right? >> And I think that's my concern is, hey, let's get what we need. >> Yep. So, if you're asking for this, I

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don't expect a truck to come in, you know, if you're asking for a steel bed with a stainless steel bed because, hey, there was an extra 50,000, right? >> Be upgraded and upgraded. Um, >> that's fair. >> That's part of my concern is >> anything outside of the scope of the

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capital project needs manager approval and it's not usually given. Uh, okay. the the thing just uh this just happened with the with the pickup truck at the at the police station. There was extra money and there was a list of things that they could get and one of them was

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like a tow hitch and like a >> back rack or something and then there was a couple other things that weren't a truck, you know, it was just, oh, we could put this in the back of the truck. Well, that's not the same. So, we got the the the hitch and the other thing, but the rest of the money got rolled back into the I understand what you're

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saying and yes, that we're not padding these numbers so that we can buy something else. >> Well, I mean, my thought is like I said, you take that group of money and you know, if it's 50,000 here, 20,000 here, that adds up to another whole capital project and there's plenty enough of

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them on the list, >> right? >> Yep. Um, and again, uh, if if if we're or you know, when it comes time to vote on the budget, if if 15% is the number that you'd rather go with or 10 or we get an updated quote, that's no big

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deal. It's in all likelihood, we're not going to need the contingency. If we do, we're just going to require additional appropriations. >> So, if I can just real quick, I like Connor's thought. Um, obviously, we've got a narrowed down list from our capital that we're asking for quotes

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for. I mean, the any equipment, you know, in the future, if it's a loader or something like that or a truck, we should be able to get an updated price pretty quick. They're just going to pull it up and >> once capital review approves it, right?

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>> They can just >> It's, you know, >> again, >> exactly. >> We're we're we're on the razor's edge here when we're putting these numbers together. It makes sense to if anything we can hone in on an exact number before you guys vote. I think that's an excellent idea.

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>> I'm hearing an awful lot of Ralph and Connor agreeing on crazy a lot. >> Really? >> It can't be a full Tuesday night. >> I know. >> So, the Meet Burke parking lot was the next uh

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>> Yeah. So, uh Greg did bring that up. Uh that uh I'm glad he did, too, because I think when I was going through this list, I was like, "Oh, school will be here, so they can talk about that." But yeah, that that was the gist of it. Those shaded areas were just going to become parking so that we don't have

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anybody parking in the aisles, which if you've ever tried to get out of Metabrook at either 8:00 in the morning or 3:00 in the afternoon, uh it's all over the place. Forget open house. Don't even go. Um >> so I I know Ralph is bringing up other

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specific areas in whatever scope that you had seen a while ago. Uh that's not >> Yeah. And like I said, so >> there was a lot of ideas >> there and walking around it and seeing it at >> some point. I would love to do that. >> Okay. Cuz there was talk and we we were

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just talking about they just did the mount Mountain View modulars, but they just did the Metobrook modulars like six years ago and when we were back there, they were talking about is there a way to uh but then the grade happened and now the the the

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the sewer line runs out through there. So it it it's not necessarily an option, but this is just to create more parking on site in those areas that are shaded. >> And there's four additional areas.

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>> Is that going toate? >> Any other questions on the metal brook? >> It's grass. >> Yeah, >> it may not alleviate the the lines. I don't I don't I don't think that's >> right. >> True. Um, neither do there's too there there

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are too many, especially at Metobrook, there are too many people that don't ride the bus. And that that's what Gordon I've been saying that for a while that this this this non this bus thing is become a a different

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buildings were designed for six buses which you had more room than you could ever dream of. That driveway coming into Metobrook, uh, no problem. But nobody takes the bus. >> Well, whether you have because you have to pay for it or it's just easier to

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drop kids off and pick them up. Uh >> I think that's part of what I was trying to >> put out there is I don't think just added parking spots is going to alleviate these lines and everything. Um I know at Maple Shade they basically put

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in that loop and all which like rest it works so much better. Yep. >> And so >> is that something under consideration? Some other way to get the traffic to flow through there or is it hey, we're just going to put in extra parking lots

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which you know the parents don't use in the morning. >> I didn't was it is the purpose of the paving the car line? No. >> No. No. But the highlight in some of the backup documentation that was that was part of the reasoning for doing some of this

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>> right >> was to alleviate some of the lines and I'm like I don't see that happening. >> Yeah. So I think the the logic there is you have people doing all sorts of like the whole thing's messed up. So if I'm trying to

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get in there to pick my kid up and the line's already formed, like you're like three wide trying to get down that and there's nowhere to park. So you have to park somewhere like up on a curb and now you've just exacerbated the situation, right? So if there's more parking places

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for people to stop their vehicle in, nobody's in the fire lanes, nobody's in places they're not supposed to be, and that hopefully the circulation is better in theory. I was just figuring if we're going to do a project to try and calculate and fix

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the whole damn thing at once. Um but again, >> yeah. Yeah. It's hard to see where you would how you would do that there. But >> yeah, I mean short of adding a I guess another lane on the on the outside of the which again we start getting into

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there's a conservation area over there and things of that nature. So that's way over. Um but um again this would certainly add more parking and clean things up a little bit. >> Maybe one of these where this is the first phase, get more parking and then

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hey, you know, loop out and around like this, it'll make it easier. >> Yeah. >> Are there questions on the Metobrook parking lot? Nope. >> Okay. Next one was the sewer uh INI project where I think Ralph was

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questioning because the just said we're going to do as much as we can. Uh and is that how we normally phrase these or >> Yeah. So the the INI is a sort of a twofold thing. One uh we have to perform

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INI work every year in order to keep our NIPES permit. uh and proof of such work. And we we didn't get into the nuts and bolts of it yet, but we will. They have their own capital account that um they've been putting money in from sewer

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retending down Felix's uh lining manholes and lining pipes. Anything to show uh to keep our permit up to date. Obviously, it also helps if we're cutting down on the amount of clean water that's getting

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into the sewer system that then we have to pay to to dispose of far more than we would clean water. Obviously, >> the description does really kind of just have a list of possibilities. >> Yeah. So, I don't know if he even has them earmarked until he goes and does

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them, but um he's going to come up with a list of things. And we have a list of the projects that have done we've done for the last few years. Um I think we were talking about it this morning. We just want and I think everybody wanted to make sure you see the recurring trend

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where this account doesn't have $330,000 in it cuz we've put 100,000 in for three years and not done anything in 3 years. So, um I just met with Felix today, so I will I'll have some updated information for that, but that that's work that is

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ongoing and required by our permit. So, um pretty much gets >> most of it gets expended every year. only 25,000. >> There's only 25,000 in there right now. So, um it's sort of based on what what he thinks he can get done at any given

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any given year. >> Ralph, so didn't we vote I don't know if it was last year or the year before that we had allocated money into do the INI and he didn't expend it all and so didn't we take a vote to hey roll that

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back in? I think I think there was some leftover. >> I think there was some leftover at some point. Wouldn't have voted somewhere else or um put it with a different project, >> a different maybe a different project.

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>> But again, so that begs the question, do need the 100,000? I I obviously there's a whole list of infiltration issues. Um, why would the money I I mean when I saw that I assumed, okay, all manholes have sealed, everything's done and all

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because we're using funds that we set aside specifically for that for something else. >> And all of a sudden it pops up again another. So why wouldn't we just keep a fund? >> Well, we essentially we already are, right? This is the sewer enterprise

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fund. We're using retained earnings. If it doesn't get used, it just goes back into retained earnings. So, >> or you can always vote to use what's in the INI towards another project, which you wouldn't be able to touch retained earnings between July and October >> until we're res

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>> or November until you're resertified anyway. So, at least during that point, you have access to these funds. >> Okay. >> So, I mean, we we we will we'll give you like the list of the projects that we've done the last couple years for sure. Um,

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and then maybe he even has an idea of what he's doing this year. Again, I don't I don't mean to be nonchalant about the fact that it's the retained earnings for the sewer department and it gets spent on sewer and then gets put back right back into the sewer, but um I

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understand I don't have the information that you requested. So, that that's sort of the main answer. There's no exact project this year for this yet, but we can give you the one last year and the year before for sure. >> Yeah, I think I don't want to put words

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in your mouth, Ralph, but I think it's it's more of a perspective that not that we don't think that it's necessary to do or don't want to allocate the funds for it, but it's just more of like an accountability thing. If we if we're going to appropriate money for something, we should know what we expect

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to get out of it rather than just like, well, we think we might do something. >> Well, we I mean, we're we're exactly Thank you. >> We're required by our permit to do something. So, we're always going to do something. Like, we we can't operate a sewer department without doing this

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work. Like, our our permit requires it. So, we'll always be doing something. What manholes and what area we're going to I don't have that information, but we can get it. Yeah, I mean I I kind of understand it a little bit. I mean he does specify the

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types of things he would do, just not exactly this is exactly what I'm going to do. So it's in a range of things, >> right? >> So before feel before we had the water and sewer administrator, this was under my purview and I actually got to do smoke testing over off Maple Street,

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which we've never seen done. Was actually pretty cool. uh but all part of this permit that we have to write a report every year to the state to say how many people got added to the system meaning new houses new buildings and this is all the work we've done in an I

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and II standpoint and then we can keep our permit or else we wouldn't be able to have a wastewater permit oh go ahead I think it kind of aligns with what we've tried to do now with paving rather than just allocating a blanket amount it's like

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how much does it actually cost for the projects that we're thinking of? And then at the end of the year, we can check off and say, "Yeah, we thought we were going to do these streets and we did." >> Okay. >> Are you thinking your town council may want to see a specific list of what's

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going to be done with that 100,000 for your vote for the for the budget? >> I think it would be helpful, but I think I we understand that like if manhole one gets substituted for manhole two, that's fine. It's just that dreaded manhole one.

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>> I know. But you know, >> No, I hear I hear you. And and I I would say at minimum we'll certainly have these projects planned out so that when he requests this 100,000 next year that that information is already there,

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>> right? Um but we can get that before that that that shouldn't be a problem. >> This is Yeah. Go ahead. A lot of these projects may not individually reach the goal of a capital project, but

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when you combine them all together, you're going to be spending more than >> Yeah. When you you you wouldn't have somebody come out to do one manhole that that Right. It's like laying one ton of asphalt. Like you you're going to want to do the whole road.

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>> Thank you, Jim. >> Yep. Uh I had the DBP compliance system. which I was reading the scope of services and I was kind of interested that this is to uh we'll identify parameters pertinent to DPB formation

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and chlorine which east slung metal can use to proactively adjust the chlorine feed rate and anticipate and respond to water quality excurs excursions. So, does that anticipate us being able to

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proactively adjust things on the water that's coming from Springfield? >> Correct. But the the operable words here are consent order. >> Um, we have to do this or we're going to get fined.

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This is one of our favorite reports that have to get published and put up on the shelf or else we get fined. This is the Felix did forward me the consent order which I can send over to you but um which is still in its draft form until

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we agree but um yeah this is one of those regulation regulatory things from D that says um here's how you get into compliance if you don't here's your fine >> so Springfield has the same requirements I assume

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>> uh as the generator I don't know >> cuz they're supplying that water to their residents, right? >> Correct. >> So, yes, they have to meet the same >> Well, they have to meet certain standards certainly, but we're we're we're not the purveyor here, right?

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We're the customer. So, >> they have a whole other list of things that they >> then says every town or municipality that's receiving water from Springfield >> or any from any source >> from any source, you've got to figure out, >> correct? Correct.

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>> Got to figure out for yourself. And if you had to do take take action. >> So this is this is this is the we just got this draft. Well, I'll send I'll send it. But this is this project is in response to that consent order. So we

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haven't done anything in this yet. We we have to draft this um report. And this would actually be studying if you had to take action and you'd have to actually build something some kind of plan.

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>> I'm interested to see what what the conclusion andor recommendation is from time bond if that if that's a um monitoring program if that's an actual infrastructure upgrade somewhere in the

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station at Harkness. I don't know. Um, >> yeah. >> Or filter each uh location, each household or something. >> Yeah. I mean, let's hope it's not all the way there, but um >> I mean, from my advantage,

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>> it's basically to fill out for the tie-in bond um for tyin bond to actually fill out the paperwork and send it to the state to say, "Hey, here's a program that we think they should follow." >> Correct. Although I think you're going to get some value out of it because they

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are going to describe what you would need to do if you had to do it, >> right? >> Yep. >> Yeah. This is a I could feel Felix's frustration when we were talking about this today. It's really been an uphill battle with uh

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well, Mass E, but Springfield Water and Sewer as well in terms of uh you know, the quality of product we're receiving for the amount of money we pay for it. >> Yeah. Um, it's very frustrating. >> The only other one I Did you have a question on the on the

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the truck that was getting the the body replaced or the >> Yes. >> I had a couple more. Yeah, there was the the body replacement again for a 2013 truck. uh

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>> that that truck's in reasonably good enough shape to just replace the body and and keep the truck going. >> I guess ultimate question would be if it's only 13 years old, why is the body rusted out? >> Uh that's a great question.

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Is the body actually rusted out or is it that it no longer meets the needs um the way it was constructed and hey this other body would be a better body a better fit. >> Yeah. So they've been they've been upgrading the vehicles that they so they

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the ones that we've purchased I think since before like before co the the bodies are the aluminum >> aluminum body so it doesn't rust. So >> aluminum or stainless steel. >> Yeah. So, um, that that's the point of

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putting a non- steel body back on this truck, which is still in good shape. The rest of it's not rusted, just the body. Um, I think you also had a question on the the water mane project, right? >> Um, >> yes.

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>> So, this uh this became a question of uh how quickly we can get the job done between design and construction. And that as luck would have it this year may be a little easier because of uh borrowing. Um we have to borrow money in August

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this year uh for the school anyway, right? Um and so the timeline of borrowing that early in the year, say instead of December, there's no reason to only do the design and then do the construction in the next fiscal year

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because we can get that all done uh September out to bid in December done in the spring. Um, so, so the design and the build would all happen in fiscal year 27. >> So the design isn't going to take more

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than a year like some other projects have. >> No. >> Based on Ty and Bond doing that design and engineering portion of it. >> Yep. And so the reason for that is the water main. There's not much design to it. Um, it doesn't require any grading.

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Uh, you're just forcing water through a pipe. So, all you really need to do is find a place for that pipe to go. Um >> 226,000 there. Better be a lot of design work. >> Well, there are there are design parameters obviously that were required

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to to hit from standpoint, but um this is a this is a based on the borrowing time a project that would get done uh within the year. Uh that was all the items.

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>> I the I did have a note on the storm water the the >> the spade art culvert. >> Yep. >> I think um obviously the description was wrong which which I think we'll send you this updated one. >> Yeah. I'm thinking uh if you can send us

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kind of a updated >> Yeah. Kim's already done most >> summary thing. >> Yeah. Uh rather than try to vote on that tonight, it would be nice to have it cleaned up and yeah, >> be able to v vote on on it Monday. >> So the the the description will now say

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something along the lines of um contingent on uh grant funding. Um I was talking to Mark today. I I don't think there's any real way that the the storm water account can handle this million dollar bond. Um, however, this this is a

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project that needs to get done. There are there are some other funding opportunities that we may be able to do in a joint project with the water and sewer uh divisions, meaning there's a sewer main underneath that covert that is going to have to either be replaced or relocated, and we might as well do

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the water while we're in there. So, that may be a way to sort of combine this project into something if we don't get a one-stop grant in June. Um, so that that description will probably say something along with Jan.

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>> Yeah. Uh, so I would suggest uh send that to us uh, you know, sometime this week if you're able to and then we'll we'll make our vote on Monday. >> Is that all right with >> Sounds good. >> Committee members. Um, so we have to

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stop at 5:15. Um, next week or next Monday, uh, our I think my plan would be talk about schools, vote on schools, review capital, vote on capital, and then try

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to get through, uh, revolving funds and enterprise funds. Will your updated uh, list contain the community preservation act? Okay. >> Yep. Um, so that would be our normally

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last schedule and we had the if needed uh for 57. I'm thinking we're probably going to need the if needed for 57 because we'll probably have a pretty full slate for that meeting and we really need to just talk about

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there's a report that needs to be submitted to town council, you know, anything that we wanted to talk about. But we'll we'll make that decision that keep that keep that 57 open because we may very well need it. But we'll make that final determination when we're come

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to the end on on Monday. >> When when does the town council anticipate beginning your deliberations on this? >> Like when would this committee re in public report to your >> uh Yeah. So we will start talking about

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the budget again our second Tuesday of May. that >> then >> no that's okay >> but that won't >> we missed some timelines so that won't actually be the public hearing the public hearing would be on the 26th so it's up to this committee I mean at a

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council level I'm sure we'll still talk about the budget that first Tuesday meeting but if you need more time I'm sure we could hear the presentation the second >> well I think if uh I I won't be here uh

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around for the 526 six, but if we we should be able to get you some kind of report or something by for the 512 meeting if we meet on 57. >> So, I mean, there's not going to be very complicated.

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>> Yeah. Uh >> so are are we permitted to um you know be so bold to our recommendation is based on a number of conditions or you know or do we couch them as recommendations?

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>> Say that again Russ. I'm not sure what you're >> So I would like to just put out there that I think Kathy mentioned you know putting a together a committee to look at health insurance. I'd love this >> this town council to look at all the union contracts and look at all the extras that are in there

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>> and so that you have a better understanding of it's not just a 3% increase it's 3% >> plus now what you do with it who knows yes I think that would be >> is it a recommendation or a condition

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>> write a little >> well I would say those would be recommendations for the town council to consider versus conditional recommendations. It's Did somebody saying something? Oh, we got to go. >> And if you can like draft up a little, I

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would include that in our written report. >> Okay. >> Uh so it is 5:15. Thank you all. Uh I need a a motion to adjourn. >> So moved. >> All right. Second. >> All right. Uh and Kathy, are you a yes? >> I'm a yes. >> All right. Anna,

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>> yes. >> Yes. >> Rich, >> yes. Jim, yes. All right, we are adjourned and >> make a motion to adjourn. Second >> town council meeting and seconded. Any further discussion? Ralph, >> yes. >> Marilyn, >> yes. >> Anna, >> yes. >> And I'm a yes. >> Kathy,

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>> Kathy was a yes. >> I'm a yes. I'm not in my head. >> Okay. >> Okay. Great. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.

Part: 2

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at least right in like Thursday >> I guess at 6:30 um would it would you want to do the minutes first or do you want to go to the the hearing the continuation of the hearing >> it's your call >> let's let's go with the continuation of the hearing and then we can do the

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minutes afterwards >> so uh we continued the last hearing uh for the uh property um with regard to the uh North Main street

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property for uh Firestone uh in terms of to have them move their building to so there would be much less of a set of a variance granted and to get it so it's off the road more uh from a safety point of view rather than have the building

4
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literally on the road plowing and that type of stuff so that we wouldn't have uh safety issues. Uh and that's what uh we're proposing. uh they were going to come back with a proposal showing us and they have um and so that's for the board

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to consider and have any questions that any of the members of the board may have. Um is someone here for the uh petitioner that you can explain what they proposed and do. >> Yeah. Good evening. Uh John Wuilla with

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the Rebo Group located at 1460 Detroit Avenue in Lakewood, Ohio. And then with me is Joe Damel. Joe is with the PRED engineering. I'll let you give your office in uh two safety. I think we're all looking at the same

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packet. So, um I know there's one member that wasn't here last month, so I won't give a a big long uh overview uh other than uh quickly pointing out that um and I'm looking at the

8
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third well, I'll go to the the third page in is the actual alta survey of the existing uh property. So, um there's kind of three curb cuts on, uh North Main Street now with a building that's uh fairly close to Landan Place. Uh the

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unique unique aspect of this property is Landan Place and Amoretta Avenue are both rights of way, but the town never accepted the right of way. >> So, I don't know if you call that private right away or just >> It's a private rightway. private right away, >> but it theoretically could be developed

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by whoever's on those roads to use it. They could widen the road, make better access. It's not very good access now, but I mean those could be improved to the width of the rightway. And our concern with the original plan was the building was almost on the rightway. Yeah.

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>> And you know, from a safety point of view, someone was going up and down following all that. >> Sure. So the I I like the last page then. I'll just cut to the chase. The last page uh shows uh the variances that

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we're requesting. Um and I can compare the the numbers. So if you look at the upper right hand corner of the building, uh the building is the gray, but the the blue is showing the uh the relief that we're requesting off of Landan Place.

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>> So the 17T dimension from the northeast corner of the building to the rightway line of Landan Place that was 6 ft previously. So, we've been able to increase that by 11 ft. And we've also made the building parallel with laundry place. It worked better when we shifted

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the building west. We did have the handicap parking up against the west uh kind of along the west face of the building. We've now moved the handicap stalls um >> in front of the building. Yeah, it's between the building and North Main

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Street. Um and then um the variance from the 100 foot setback from the residential zone district. And I I guess the other very unique uh part of this project or part of this site is that the the property is actually split zoned in

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the back where we we have uh the property that we have under contract uh the the zoning district line goes through the that property. So, um the the bottom 26 ft of the site is zoned

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residential and then there's uh Amorda Avenue rightway which is uh 50 ft. Um so the the southeast corner of our building previously was 8 was 81.5 ft from the

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residential zone. Now we're at 82.9. So we actually were able to increase that little bit. But now with the building being uh parallel with laundry place the 82.4 dimension which is from the southwest corner of the building to the

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residential zone uh that was 105.2 because again the building was parallel with North Main Street. >> So um we we we like this plan a lot. We think it works well. We think it addresses the comments that we received. >> And guess if you have any questions,

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we're certainly open to questions. Oh, and I did want to mention that the listing broker is here. His name is Tom uh Morset right behind me. And then also the property owner is here. Uh Arthur Ram. >> Okay. >> Still seven and a half bays.

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>> Yeah. Eight bays. >> Yeah. Seven bay alignment. >> Some of the old building design had to be changed. >> Yeah. >> Mr. Chair, I have a question. They were right up on the street and it was parallel with the street, right?

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This way angled out and it was literally >> Yeah, we had the old one if you want to >> like Rob wants to see one. >> It should be in your package. Um I was going to ask so the handicap parking

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space, how far is that from the front entrance of the building? Uh the front entrance is where the little triangle is at the northwest corner of the building. >> Okay. So it's close enough to where folks don't have to walk too far. >> Yes. Very close. And the and the accessible sidewalk.

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>> Yeah. Thank you. >> Yep. >> Cuz I think it's a 100 foot setback and the uh closest is is 82.4 on one side. What was the other? >> 829. >> 829. 824.

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>> Correct. Okay. So you're looking for a variance basically of uh 17 >> 18 ft >> and then and it's just one variance >> the variance from the the yeah the red

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is here that's so you got a street there's nothing ever going to be developed here he's got a buffer that they the plan show on the the there's This is going to be a mounted uh buffer with plantings to insulate the neighbor.

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Then you got the street >> pling board. They still have to go to the planning board. >> Like ultimately they have to get site plan approval by the planning board, but we have to give the variance first because we don't get the variance. So what they're looking for is a variance from the uh residential requires 100

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foot for any use. So they're going to be within the building's going to be within. So we have to give them an 82 point. You know the 82.9 be roughly 18 feet, but it'll be 17.3 and 17

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eight feet uh you know variance uh for the corners of the building. It would be according to this plan and then off the street I believe it's 25 ft. >> Yes. >> So they're going to be looking for it's now is it 17

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17 ft? >> Yes. So they're going to be looking for 8 foot >> from Lan from the street >> because it's a corner lot and so uh and then it's 11 17. They're both 17 cuz it's equal to the street. So basically an 8ft variance

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on this one and a 17T variance. Basically that's what they're here tonight. you know, that's what we had asked so we would have less of a of a variance request um for public safety in terms of this street ever got developed

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>> and they and they conformed >> they conformed to put it and they still meet all the parking requirements access um and they still have you know all the requirements that they had um but you know required to be built to shown according to the plans and so this on

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file with us um >> all right I'm up to I'm up to Mr. Chair, I'll also um when I'm doing the official decision for this permit, I'll also include that last page as the official. >> Yeah, I these will all be part of it and it's what's shown on the maps uh for the

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final things that's will be be you know built in that in that fashion. Um, so these this and then the pictures and things that's going to be built these up bays and this is what how it's going to look from the road and this back side.

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>> Okay. >> Okay. >> But like they still have to go from site plan approval for lighting, signs, buffer zones. They'll be have all the what'sever going to be required there. But we want to build the plans that they've submitted. There are buffer

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zones that are already committed um from the original plans along the back. It's going to be a raised area here so that the neighbors don't have to deal look at it and and you know one of the things that was one of the questions was going

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to be whether we wanted to put limitations on like hours. Um >> put what on >> limitations as part of the variance on the hours that they they operate. So they're not operating at 2 in the morning. um that type of because you're in, you know, you're right near a

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residential neighborhood. >> So, Mr. Chair, Mr. Chair, I'll have to push back on that because the plan for do that during the same time. >> Yeah. No, they can. I understand. But one of the issues I >> I I don't really see I I happen to represent their competitor, Town Fair Tire. So, I would I you know, we we don't have anybody restricting their

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stores against ours. I don't know why they should. >> This is going to happen. >> Okay. No, I mean that's one of the issues because some of the neighbors had concerns about the and stuff. big trucks coming in and going trash that type of stuff. So that we just want to potentially but that could be done by

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the planning board of sight but we could also do it here >> theoretically >> in theory I kind of like to stay away from issues like that and there's only board of appeals we should be dealing but sometimes for the public good. Yeah, because it's because it's that much closer to the and given the variance, we

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want to limit the hours so that the hours are mostly business hours. I'm not looking to >> from what I know of a typical Firestone operation that isn't going to be necessary. >> No, no, I understand. But that would be that would be the only concern that I would have if you wanted to put it in or not.

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>> There's one thing I do want to point out. Um, the engineered site plan is like the fifth sheet in from your Yep. It's very similar to the one that colored up the setback.

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I have a bigger copy if any. Can >> you close the public hearing on this or >> No, they left it open. >> Here's a bigger copy. >> Okay. But I I do want to show that there's we're started working on the grading of

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the site and we are showing a retaining wall. >> Okay. >> At that location that >> just right here on the side >> where there's another triangle with a door entrance that's the access point on the eastern side of the building. >> So so the 8 ft is going to be up at the building elevation and then the pavement

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will uh be sloping down towards Main Street, but we needed to construct a retaining wall in that area. >> Okay. U so I don't know if the variance >> doesn't apply >> doesn't apply >> not for retaining wall if it's the building itself >> okay >> that's the only thing that matters here >> okay very good >> far as only regs at least

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>> okay >> do we somebody have a motion for this already prepared or >> well just want to hear any comments from >> other people thank you Alex 25 Smith Avenue Just one question. I'm going to butter. And we received

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paperwork when we were going to have the last meeting. We were supposed to Were we supposed to receive paperwork for this meeting? >> No, that was continued at the last meeting. >> I know there's a few people that probably would have come. >> It was here. Yeah. It was announced at the hearing rather than have them

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republish and do all that stuff. We felt it was fair just to um >> keep renifying people. And also the planning board meeting when that happens you will receive another letter from us. >> That's when I know a lot of lot of student >> Yeah. And they they get in more details is the lighting and the noise and all

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the other stuff that we don't deal with. >> We're here to deal with two issues. Yeah, the my main thing with the zoning was the way the um >> property was positioned close to London and my now again this probably doesn't deal with you probably only the planning board snow removal but they're having

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that >> retaining wall where you going to put the snow >> but you still got a distance between Yeah, you got >> I can't see it. >> It's probably as big as any >> snow plow >> a snow plow to get it in there. I mean

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that's what the road got developed the whole length of the road. >> It's just that little piece there. >> But they have the parking spots here. >> The the back the parking spots their property too. So they push all the snow there. >> So you're going to put the snow where the parking spots are? >> Probably. >> Well, >> John, are you going to put the I'm

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assuming the snow is be pushed behind the parking lot, right? In the south. >> Yeah. >> So it's going to go where the retaining wall is. >> No to the south of the property. >> Okay. So this is where >> this is going to be this is going to be a burm

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>> planted plant. It's going to be you know they plans with it with >> this is north main which this is London right that's >> okay so this is where the houses are correct on the other side going to go is where the house >> well no they'll go in on their property

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>> no for that buffer. Yeah, there'll be'll be you probably won't see it unless it's a huge pile because you got you got a mound that's going to be separating it. But >> theoretically, we have a real bad winter, you know, snow can get. But >> any other questions or comments?

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>> Yeah, my name is Richard. Uh, my question is, is this going to be a mass inspection station? >> That's not really >> Oh, because I could throw everything off out the window because you guys all

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mentioned dumpsters and all the noise of the trucks coming in and out. I can't I can't answer specifically, but I am >> in the field of automotive real estate and and and uh to my knowledge,

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Firestone does not operate inspection facilities in Massachusetts. I could be wrong about that, but I don't think so. Most inspection facilities are are are >> I think they do because I used to build >> Well, you could be right, but I don't think so because I've never seen that because if if in fact they are an

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inspection station, what everybody talks about here with the downstairs and the noise and the virus, if you go up to Allen and in the last three days, next this week, he accommodated for his gas station that

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we're going to put So all the cars wouldn't interfere with the gas, >> right? >> But you know, even even if it is the case that they're an inspection station, to my knowledge, we wouldn't be able to, you know, restrict them or pre prevent them from >> that. That'll be more of a planning

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board issue is the site plan >> and that might be an issue. You should attend the planning board and raise it there because they they can probably have the authority to look into that. the truck's backing up or inspection. You have to honk the horn, right? You have to make sure the horn honks. So,

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every car gets inspected. I get that. Yeah. But it's not definitely a plan. >> But it's the cars lined up at the end of the month. Uh, you know, to get >> Well, he does a good job up at >> No, no, but I mean, there's a lot of cars toward the end of the month.

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They're lined up. >> So, a lot of cars lined up adding to our traffic, adding to what I'm complaining about this road. But I' I'd be willing to bet you $20 that they don't do it. >> I don't think that they're willing to bet you that I >> I just paid my property tax $20.

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>> You're lucky you have $20. >> 35 for the inspection. So >> that was a good point. But I do think that'd be something the planning board uh would be able to address. >> Planning board, >> right? The planning board. We're only

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dealing with the two issues with regard to the setbacks uh because they c they can't meet the requirements of the zoning and they're they're basically have a hardship because of the the small area that they're dealing with that's in the commercial zone that they can't use

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the residential piece. So it can, you know, compacts the area that they can actually use for their commercial, which then forces your building into a uh closer than you would be because of the, you know what I'm saying, Dan? That's the unique situation because they

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can't put any part of their operation on in a residential zone. >> Yep. >> So that's that's that's I the hardship. Anybody else in the public want to speak? So, >> uh, any other questions? You have any

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questions from any of the board members? >> No. >> Do you have a motion to uh close the public hearing? >> So, move. >> Second. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I I note for the record it was unanimous. Um so now do we have a either

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a motion to either approve or deny uh the requested variances or two of them uh and just if we want conditions and uh you know that we're having based on the plans that have submitted u there

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would be a grant of uh maximum grant would be the 8 2.4 4. So be um you know the A2.9 is the closest. So it would be the closest point would be 17.3

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ft from the uh variance from the 100 foot variance. >> I'll let one of you make the motion since I wasn't here last week. >> I I I move to allow the variance um as described in the packet and and most

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recent survey. Um I I thought they they did a nice job of creatively fitting the the building into the envelope. Uh based upon our feedback in the last hearing, um I think that the safety issues that

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that we had identified have been mitigated. Um and uh I think that based on the unique nature of this property u it uh it warrants variance. Als

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yeah I just would want to put on the motion u that we it's going to be condition on compliance with the plans that have been submitted both the landscaping plans now those could be changed um I don't think we're going to be for strict but if there are any major

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changes that come out of the planning board um then it may have to come back to us I mean I can't tell you what the planning board's going to do I doubt they're going to play with your building but if they do um it may come back. >> Well, theoretically, it's site plan

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approval. >> Um, they don't. No, generally they don't, but they can. >> Mr. Chair, can I say one thing before uh closes? So, um, >> are you saying that if anything were the change for the two improved variances on the plants, they would have to come back?

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>> Well, that's what I'm saying. Significant changes. I mean, if it's if it's, you know, >> minor. Well, if there if there are changes, if the planning board makes changes to the site plan that are material, >> right, >> to in our use in making our decision,

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>> then they have to come back because in our decisions been usurped, >> but I don't see them doing that. But that's good to know. >> They use less of a variance than I specific to me at least for the residential buffer, it's specific on the presence of either a landscaping broom

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andor the evergreen screening. Right. So if the hypothetically the planning board say oh we don't want a burm or we don't want evergreens in the back although they won't then obviously that's going to impact and would change our opinion or our potential opinion and decision. >> Right. >> Right.

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>> I mean we want want to keep that buffer. I mean we we feel this both streets provide a s a small buffer but I want a visual buffer as well and that's what that firm will provide. And as the plants grow it'll become even more of a thing. And hopefully it'll the distance

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plus the the the plantings will also muffle sounds uh that are going to come to the neighborhood um that are there. Now you do have some residentials that are on the um right across the street um on Lagran

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um that could be affected. We >> Well, I think I think >> but they're they're in a business home though. >> You did you did a good job at the last meeting conditioning. >> They've come back. They've done what you asked them to do. I think it looks fine. I think we should call the vote. >> Yeah.

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>> Okay. Um I'll start with >> Yeah. Brian. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. >> I I will also vote yes. >> Coming apart here. >> I know. Dropping everything. Losing my mind.

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>> Um I'm for it and it's unanimous. >> Okay. So, the variance has been granted. Um, there's a 20-day appeal period. Anybody can file a lawsuit against it. So, it'll become effective 20 days after the We'll file this decision in the next

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day or two. And hopefully, I'll sign it hopefully in the next day or so. We'll file with the town clerk. There's a 20-day appeal period. Uh, you can proceed at your own risk. Uh, they still have to go to the plan, >> but they got to go to the planning board anyway. So, but I'll email you tomorrow, >> but they but they at least now know get

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done with the appeal period Wolver anyway. >> Yeah, but more than that. >> So, but you'll have to record it uh with the registry of these will get recorded. >> I'll tell you all >> and we'll get a copy of that back for our records. But it's condition on the plans that you've given, especially the

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buffer uh zone and that they're built in the location. So the the maximum uh distance is get basically is going to be an 8 foot variance off of Lagan Avenue for the building uh in the location shown on the plan and a u

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maximum on the southwest side um of 17.3 ft uh or 17 8 ft is it I believe >> but it's a max based on the plans 824

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is the is the >> Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right. Thank you very much. >> You finally got it done. >> All right. Yeah. Took it like six months. >> Thank you. >> Two norers delaying this project by >> the car wash. Car was terrible.

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>> That was terrible. >> I said okay. >> I met you once before. >> Yes. >> I'm Jack Stanley's brother-in-law. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. A long time away. Yeah. Yeah. Jack did. >> My father My father knew Jack's family

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very very well. >> April suddenly. >> Would you mind closing that door back there if it's still open? I just don't want to buy the school committee. >> L. Yeah. if you go in.

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>> And he was in the house >> and he t was laying on the floor and then nurse come in and about that. >> Oh, that's too bad. >> Too bad. >> So, she wasn't taking much care. >> She wasn't really taking good care of

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them. They're having >> I know you over >> Yard and I been friends since the trade school. >> Yeah, it's a tough This site is a tough site. This site is such a tough site cuz

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it's such a narrow with the split zone in the back. >> It makes it the fact zone for it, >> right? >> I when he bought it, I dug all the stumps out >> and You know all things back and forth. Who

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wired my first house in >> 66? >> My wife grew up on Avenue. >> Y >> Stanley's sister Kathleen O'Neal. >> They grew up on it. Jack grew up on Carver Street. >> Huh? >> Didn't Jack grow up on Carver Street in Springfield?

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>> I can't hear you. >> Jack Stanley grew up. >> Yeah, we got just to our two cases, but yeah, Jack Stanley grew up on Carver Streetfield. versus coming up. >> Yeah.

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>> Long time. >> Long long time ago. Well, Jack was always a classic. >> I'm glad he is a good fair man. >> I'm 80 I don't know 87 year three months in it. He's a year and a half younger than me.

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>> He's been I've known serve around for a long time and he's just a real gentleman. >> Hope something makes it a little better than it is. >> Ready for the next thing? Yep. >> Well, thank you very >> and Mark told me about >> what's it again?

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>> Mark Sabrina mentioned that that you had those and you said, "Well, I'll show you to >> 63 and yeah." Where did you see that? >> He told me about it. I didn't see them. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Chester's been a good friend of mine.

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>> Yeah. I think I was working on it tonight. I was working on it tonight. I got an oil leak I'm trying to fix. >> I had >> I had to take a shower. >> I had a 564. >> Did you? >> I got a 2010

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bike. >> Is there an applicant for five Susan Street? >> We got the next year. >> Thank you. My grandson going to get when I die. >> That's great. Good. It's good to talk. We got to get back to this meeting.

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>> So, yeah, we have another hearing. >> Well, that one is we unfortunately have we had three different ones. >> All right. So, this one you want to give a spiel first. >> Yeah. So, uh the way we'll proceed is it's it's a request for variance. I'll

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have the the clerk call the read the the minutes. Uh if someone has the minutes here, do you have anything there? Um, Eastl Meadow Zoning Board of Appeals public hearing legal notice. East Law Meadow Zoning Board of Appeals will hold a public hearing on Monday, April 27th,

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2026, 6:30 p.m. in the Pleasant View Senior Center, 328 North Main Street, East Law Meadow, Mass 01028. Case ZV20601. A petition for variance under Islam Meadows zoning bylaws table 32 for

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relief from the front setback requirements for a proposed attached garage at five Susan Street and Eastlan Meadows Assess parcel ID 67364 in the residents B zoning district applicant Courtney Brown 5 Susan Street

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East Meadow Mass 01028 information related to applications filed with the department of planning and community development is available for public inspection at the town hall 60 center square and there's also electronic version the case files were available for the board James Channing

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clerk and this was published on both April 9th 2026 as well as April 16th 2026 and I believe that no uh butters have been noticed >> notified >> notified and green cards received or >> return receipt

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over there's So I believe >> So the the setback is off of Barry Road, correct? >> Yes. >> Correct. That's the bar. >> That's where the driveway is now. >> Yeah. >> Correct. Right. >> Um I guess just in terms of procedure, if you're not familiar, we we'll have

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take testimony um from you as the applicant. If anyone wants to else wants to speak in favor of it, they can. If anybody else then wants to object or have any questions, concerns, they have the opportunity to. We do have a full forum here tonight. Uh so we could vote if we wanted to, if we're in a position

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to close the meeting, but there may be additional questions, answers. Not sure. >> Yeah. I mean I I think right now I mean there there's a house and there is a driveway that that's there without a house um a garage. So the I guess the

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question that that I had um in in terms of whether or not the variance there's enough room to put I you know in terms of the back I wasn't able to look at at the back of the yard so I can't tell but it didn't look to be anything like

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>> I can show you >> if you look on the plan this is the front of the house that >> and then because >> the curve >> the curve is it's not a square or rectangle. It it comes in. >> There's a fence here. Has been a fence since Courtney bought the house 10 years

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ago. >> Um and so this is the garage. So this is the backyard, right? >> Um which is substantial. >> Um and that's all fenced in and all the the proposal is to continue the garage

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down the line that the fence is on as we speak. Um, part of the reason that this is the best point place for it is because there's an incline when you come from when you come up Barry to Susan from

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Marshall. >> Okay. >> So, the backyard naturally flows down. Um, it also flows down from Susan because Marshall is lower than Susan Susan. And so when you get to this point

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in in the um yard, it's much lower than anywhere else. And the grade actually starts to fall on the side of the house that's on Susan. So >> this Yeah. I mean, the great at Susan's higher, >> right, >> than than >> And this is fairly flat now because

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there's a deck and then there's a lower brick deck, right? Um, so all of this land, if you were to to push it further back to try to get the 40 ft at an angle or if you put it on this side of the house, >> there'd be a whole lot of fill that

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would have to come in and maybe even some barrier walls that were built to to hold it because so they so he >> he's going to be 40t. >> The issue here is the size of the lot or >> No, it's he's looking for variance. He has to have set 40 ft off of the corner

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lot. So he has to meet both sides. So here he's doing >> 309.1 the original house that was already there. But here it goes down to 31.5T. So it be 8 1/2 ft.

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>> That's an irregular shape lot. >> Exactly. You actually you actually not I like it when they actually meet the test >> cuz so many people come in with stuff that's not you've got the irregular shape of the corner and you've got the top you've got topography and shape

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>> both are fighting right the >> which made a lot a lot more the flattest spot is right where the deck the brick deck is below the wooden deck which is right there. So all we do is keep the same debt, replace

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>> so you'll stay in the same line that you're already on. >> Exact same line. >> I think that makes about as it's about the best solution. >> Do you think it is? >> Smart guy. >> I'm an accountant, so I'm used to angles and looking for things like that. Just

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so I'm clear on the as you're facing the house on the south side, you're saying that the topography would would cause on this side would cause >> too much fill >> right from the house. >> It falls. >> It falls probably 4T to the back of the

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house and maybe another 5 to 10 ft to the to the >> further we moved it away from the road, the more fill that he's going to bring in. >> Exactly. >> Support probably is some sort of retain. >> That looks like a routine case to me. Unless there's people here that >> that's what we were hoping and there are

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neighbors >> that have the right to speak. >> Oh, they have the right to speak. >> Well, we need the people speaking in favor of >> go back here some um anything >> I'm sure I picked up by your your

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microphones there. >> It's going to be basically for the addition piece because the addition piece probably means the 30.4 39.4 four is the existing house. It looks back there's a porch. So that the is the your

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porch area which is part of the garage will actually probably be 40 ft. I don't know >> at that corner you know when you get back from the where the garage is whether that's 40 ft or not with the setback. >> Yeah, it'll be it'll be less than it and

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there's a 10-ft breezeway. And the reason why there's a 10-ft breezeway is because of the falloff, >> right? >> And and so where the garage will be will have a step up into a what's now a threeseason room.

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>> Um and to to enter the house through the because the the addition is including the breezeway and the garage. >> Absolutely. Double >> but but the but the issue I didn't know is in terms of here, but I will do it per the plan. I just don't know how

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close the the breezeway is in terms of >> Oh, the breezeway. We could put the It actually doesn't matter right now. I think it's back about four or five ft. Um that's what I'm saying. So, you may not need the variance because you may have 40 ft when you get to the end of the

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>> of the uh breezeway and then when cuz you the garage is how many? >> The garage will be 20 ft wide. 20 ft >> and the breezeway is 10 ft wide. >> Yeah. >> So, Mr. Sure. He needs the variance because the back corner is 31 ft from the street. >> Well, he needs that. Well, if the the

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garage that's the the deep variance and it'll be per this plan on that line that that's currently there. >> Um, >> and so so the variance, if I could just the way I view it is is the variance goes from the 394 at the back of the house, which is, you know, it's been

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there for 75 years, but you're actually way down to you're actually Yeah. Yeah. you theoretically because if you're going to put the I don't know but this is what you presented with the the the breezeway being set back a little bit so it may or may not what I didn't know was

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whether the westerly corner of that needed a variance both sides both sides would be less than 40 ft >> there 40 ft >> and the other one would be probably around 30 >> a varian so that they can construct the garage >> it's shown on the plan

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>> exactly >> with the maximum variance of uh let's see 8 and 1/2 ft 8.7 ft >> 8.5 >> let's 8.5 is it 512 or 510 okay

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>> 31.5 so 8 and 12 okay any uh people here speak in favor uh do you want to speak or just say we're nod you're in favor >> negative you guys are >> if you're good we're I mean, we're just

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coming to support him. I mean, it's just going to better the neighborhood. Um, none of the lots are >> squares in our neighborhood. Um, you know, many of us in the neighborhood have been before you throughout the years for various reasons. >> Well, these were laid out a number of years ago, so zoning has changed.

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>> Yeah. These are all built in the 50s. >> Yeah. >> Yep. We're just supporting another neighbor who wants to add a garage like a lot of us have already done. >> Sure. >> Okay. It's a twocar garage. >> It is. All right. >> I don't know. I'm going to be the stickler for two seconds. Can you tell

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me uh for the record, I know that you put it in writing, but just so so I for the record why you're not uh able to put the garage on Susan Street, move the driveway over to Susan Street and put the garage in that side. >> Well, first of all, there's two bedrooms that are on that side of the house. So,

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in order to make it an attached garage, it would enter through a bedroom. Number one, >> that's a very good reason to do that. So, and and then the other reason and then the other reason is is that >> Susan and the house the front of the house are parallel to one another and

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the yard from the beginning of the house on that side of the house >> all the way over to Barry is flat. >> Pretty flat. >> This makes the most. The minute you get to the front of the house, it starts

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going down in the grade all the way to the to the next property line, but it's down at least 3 or 4 feet just to the back of the house. >> Um because there's actually a walk out seller um in the back of the house. So

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there's there's no walk out on the front. You can see from the you know the pictures um but there's a walkout seller. So, it goes and it's I'll be honest, it's not a full 7ft door. Um, it's a custom door that was when she moved in literally like a barn door. So,

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we actually put a real door in there. But, um, so it it's it's the grade on that side that just kind of kills everything. You can't um you'd have to really build a lot of field and there's some beautiful blue spruce trees, too, that would have to go along with a

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maple. So if you're into >> I think we're good. >> Great. >> I got one more question. We're not good. >> So can you just for the record uh tell me that if you were to eliminate the breezeway and so go from the garage to the sun room to the house, would you still need a variance?

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>> Yes. Yeah. Because the minute you get beyond the house because of the angle >> because the angle of the house and the angle of the street are getting smaller and smaller. One foot beyond the house. So the breezeway has no impact. Although

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>> the breezeway has zero impact. >> Yes, but that's what he's presenting garage. >> That's all I want for the record. I appreciate it. Thank you. >> Now we're all set. >> Okay. >> And and for the record, another thing for the record. Um I worked with Rob on

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all of this stuff. He was very helpful. Um, just want you to know that, uh, you know, this is the first time I've ever had to do anything like this for my daughter, um, who's, you know, off being her the just getting out of work now in in, uh, Palmer as a physical therapist.

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And so I've kind of marshaled this through as a retiree gives me something to do. >> And there's always people looking for things for a retiree to do. All right, I'd like to close the hear

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>> note it was unanimous and now take I'll entertain a motion. >> Somebody make a motion. >> I I move to approve the variance um because of the unique not only nature of the streets but more importantly in my mind the nature of the topography of of

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the landscape uh makes it a unique circumstance that I think warrants a variance. >> Yeah. And I think it's in keep you still enough of a setback off in the road that that you're 31.5 ft close. >> It is said it's consistent with the

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nature but it's also your house. I mean >> nothing will change any of the neighbors. I talked to a neighbor right across the street who whose um driveway is right across from Courtney's driveway and he said, "Who are you who are you going to use to do the work? Cuz I want

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I want to do the same thing on my house." Now he has a garage but it's it's a one car. He wants to expand it. So >> did a very good job. Thank you. >> Thanks. >> So we got to take the vote. >> Vote is taking the vote. Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes.

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>> Yep. Yes. >> Dan. Sorry. Sleepy. >> Obviously >> I was waiting for the >> So once again appeal period. Um it'll be per the plans that you've submitted. Um

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>> you know so it can't be more than uh 8.5 ft. Yep. >> He's an account. He's not going to >> he's not going to answer. >> I'm a US. >> We pay attention to this. People sometimes >> I want I just want to say that when it

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comes to variances um you know there in Massachusetts there we're a pretty strict state about that. I practice real estate in five states >> and I and I see variances in different states. They're they're just different things like fish, >> right?

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>> Completely different. Massachusetts, um, we often are asked to approve variances that that I don't think ought to be approved. And I've been on on this board. I've I've killed my share of them for that reason. >> Uh, because I don't like seeing that statute abused. And this is why

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it exists. >> Exactly. >> This is why it exists. So you you not only is it your first hearing and it was successful, but in my view, and I've been serving on a ZBA one form or another for over 30 years, it it's the perfect prototypical case

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>> and and it's it it actually shows why rules were made to be broken >> for the right reasons on occasion. >> Okay. >> Thank you. Thanks. >> Congratulations. And you got a 20-day appeal period. >> Okay. >> Okay. Great. I will follow up with you

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tomorrow about next steps and you'll have all the great. >> We have two two other two other issues. One is approve our minutes. Have you guys read the minutes and are we okay with the minutes? >> I will make a motion to approve the minutes. >> Second. >> Second. Okay. All in favor? No. It was

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unanimous. And then we have a request for a continuence of our public hearing tonight that I want to announce. I know if there's anybody here for that uh that we're going to continue it to our next meeting on May 18th. >> Uh this is the uh request to continue

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public hearing for zero prospect EO meadow. Uh we received the request from the engineer from Mr. Mitchell who is the owner requesting uh so part of the issue was Eversource has a major easement across this property and they

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have to get permission from Eversource to be able to do anything on this property and they evidently came back with a whole list of things they wanted done and they're still negotiating with course to get those things done. >> It's really hard to do that. >> So and they're not noted for speed.

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>> No. And they're also not noted for being flexible. >> Right. The other issue that that also has come up that that may and has not been addressed is whether or not this um since they passed because the size of

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the house they were proposing here >> would fall under the new amendments the housing that got passed um because it's it's you know I think it's if it's 1,800 square ft or less >> it falls under that new uh the thing so you don't have to

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>> the right the right to Yeah, it's the right to build on a smaller lot. You no longer have the merger requirements and he he may not need a variance from us at all >> because of of that statute >> of the new statute. I'll need every my concern is that he's here before us,

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>> but there's a statute that might address because of the size of house he's proposing. I think if it's 1,800 and I forget, it has to have so many feet, but he has the frontage. It's a minimalist law, but he met both of those requirements and the House met. >> Well, here's the way that law works,

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though, is we we still have to rule, but we can't deny. It's like the >> It overrules the town zoning. Yeah, it overrules the town zoning. >> If you've got this, you have to approve it. We don't have a choice, >> right? >> If you meet those requirements, that's what the new zoning. It overrode all

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local zones. >> Rob, maybe this goes away. >> Yeah. >> Well, that's what I'm saying. >> Exactly. I I I don't I don't know if if anybody's, you know, I I we talked I talked to you about it, Rob, back a while ago. >> And and it may meet those requirements.

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>> It needs a continuence, though, right? >> So, we got a motion. So, I make a motion we continue. >> Yeah. I second the motion. >> All in favor? >> I I move to close. We'll close the hearing. >> All in favor? I >> All right. I got to run to lacrosse