Good evening and welcome to the March 10th, 2026 meeting of the Islam Town Council. I'll call the meeting to order and ask that we stand for the pledge of >> allegiance. I allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under
God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> You sit down. Then I would ask that we have a brief moment of silence to reflect on all of the events going on both here and abroad. >> Thank you. In accordance with Mass General Law, this meeting is being
recorded by LCAT. And if there's anyone else in the audience recording, if you could identify yourself. No one on Zoom or in person. Uh public comments. Is there anyone in the public audience that wishes to make a comment this evening? I don't see anyone with their hand
raised on Zoom or in the audience. Council comments there. Any counselors with a comment this evening? >> All right. Town manager report. >> Hi Tom. >> Hey. Good evening. >> Good evening. >> Um
so, uh we'll start as usual. Uh find the project report for the high school of the weeks of February 16th and 23rd of February. Um, the pictures are still amazing, right? You're really starting to see all the details and finishes.
Uh, the school's personality is really starting to shine through. Um, I've got the link on there. Just a reminder, you can get all the scheduling and progress information. Essenta.govhs building project. Uh, Kim, Rebecca, and I now met with all
departments. Um and uh level two is just about all set to go. Uh Jamie was our last victim on Monday. Um so I just want to thank all of our department heads and and their staff for
for providing all the information and uh to make the process go as smooth as it does. It's it you know it's it's a long few weeks, but um I appreciate everybody taking the time to uh to go through everything with us. Um, so in the next
week or so, uh, we'll be just making minor adjustments and tweaks and, uh, in advance of the draft draft submission prior to April 1st. Uh, the winter that wouldn't end. Uh, as
I sit here in a golf shirt, uh, when we last met, we were coming off a a winter storm that closed most of the Commonwealth. Uh, interestingly enough, due to the declaration of the state of emergency by the governor, the mass uh emergency management association is
conducting an initial uh damage assessment uh to see if the state qualifies for uh any federal reimbursements. Um, all that information luckily is readily available. Uh, Bruce has uh all that data for every storm up to date,
including that one obviously. Um, so I attach those sheets on there, which is kind of cool to see how much fuel gets used, the overtime hours, um, how much a storm costs. Uh, it it is a pretty cool spreadsheet. Um, so just
numbers to, uh, to back up sort of what we already know that DPW has been extremely busy this winter and, uh, done an amazing job with with all the cleanup. So, thank you to the DPW once again. Uh the local emergency planning committee met on Friday uh for a table
tap exercise with the in the fire department training room. Uh Chief Beecher, who also serves as the emergency management coordinator, led us through the scenario of a multiple vehicle accident with chemical vapor release uh at the corner of uh Chestnut
and Benton. Uh northnortheast winds 12 13 miles an hour, something like that. Um just missed the high school right at 1:00 p.m. Uh so it was Friday afternoon where the parameters um fire department,
police department, DPW, health department, schools and COA were on hand uh everybody giving input on what their roles would be in a certain scenario. Um we also had participants from Lennox Carter Monday and East Law Meadow Skilled Nursing uh which is on the
corner of Maple and Dwight. So, it was nice that they were there talking about what what they might have to do in a situation like that. Uh, it was a it was a good exercise and sort of demonstrated all the communication that is needed between so many people to to handle any situation
that may arise in town. So, thank you to all that participated. Uh the fire department held a recognition ceremony on February 27th um to celebrate and honor the work and accomplishments of the men and women of the ELFD.
Uh Captain James Goldendrick, Lieutenant Brody Allen, and firefighter Joe Jordano were recipients of Union Unit Citation Awards, and firefighters Gianna Driscoll and Eli Joerger received distinguished service awards. Uh 20-year service
awards were given to Chris Beecher, Chief Beecher, Deputy Chief Lahan, our fire prevention officer Brian Deond, uh Captain Ben Cody, uh and firefighter Ed McCandish. Um and last and certainly
not least, uh firefighter Joe Gordono received his 25 year service award. Um, so congrats to all and thanks to everybody at at the fire department for for all you do each day for our community. Uh, that's it for the report for the
evening. I'm happy to answer any questions anybody has. >> Great. Thank you, Tom. Does anyone have any questions? I don't have any questions. Uh, just a comment though based on the snow and ice report that Bruce prepared. I mean, first, thank you. It's nice to see that
sort of level of detail from him. Um, but just for the public's benefit, so far the total storm cost for this whole winter season has been about $493,000. So, >> quite the testament on how much goes into all of that.
>> That's the reason we can run in the red. >> All right. Any other comments or questions? Seeing none, any communications, correspondence, or announcements. We have no public hearings. So under orders of the day and licensing matters, our first is approve
a change of manager for Mario's Cafe Ambiance at 60 Shaker Road from Karen Bard to Kerianne Monroe. Is there if you're here uh please come forward? >> Yes. >> If you could just state your name and
address for the record. Kerianne Monroe, 38 Indian Spring Road, East S, Massachusetts. >> Great. Thank you. Um, the application seemed straightforward and it's a pretty routine thing, but if you just want to provide an overview of what's changing for us. >> So, we're having a change in ownership
because one of the owners passed away. So, her daughter shell selling her shares to another person, Mary. So, Mary and I are going to be working together. I'm going to be taking a more active role in overseeing the restaurant. Great. Sense. Does anyone on the council
have any questions or comments? No. >> Okay. If there's none, then I'll entertain a motion. >> I'm not ready. >> Approve a change of manager for Mario's Cafe beyond 60, Karen Bard to Kerianne
Monroe. Second. >> Motion was made in. Is there any further discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor, please say I. I. >> Any opposed? Motion passes. >> Thank you. >> Good to go. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Next, we have approving a change
of manager for Pride Operating LLC at 13 North Main Street from Sarah Fitch to Enrique Ernesto Sue. Looks like they're on Zoom. Good afternoon. Can you hear me? >> Yes. Good evening.
>> Hi. Let me turn my Oh, my name is Ku. Uh I am uh switching I'm taking over the location as the store manager uh after the uh previous managers uh left the company. >> Makes sense. Does anyone have any
comments or questions? Hope in order. Yeah, >> looks in order to me. Uh then I'll entertain a motion. >> Make a motion to approve a change of manager for Pride Operating LLC 13 North Main Street from Sarah Fitch to Enrique and Resto Ernesto Sue. >> Second.
>> Motion has been made and seconded. Any further discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor, please say I. >> I. Any opposed? The motion passes. Thank you. >> Thank you. Okay, next we have the license fee review report from the licensing committee.
>> I'm up everybody got the handout that came in this earlier today, I should say. >> Yes. So, a few months back, Connor asked if um the licensing committee would uh take a look at area license um alcohol
license fees, their schedules to make sure that we were um at least competitive in in the general ball park with, you know, our neighboring towns. So um
um I asked Jackie to put feelers out to Agawam, Lello, South Hadley, East Hampton, Long Meadow, Wilberham, Southwick, Mson, and Hampton uh and to uh inquire as to their fee
schedules. And so what you see before you um are the responses from uh most of those towns. We unfortunately did not hear back and get any data from from Hampton. Um however um our East Long
Meadows as well as um the other towns I just listed um are there on the chart. um I aggregated them and and then took an average based on um the information there and you can see that in most cases
um we uh exceed the average not um in any um critical sort of way. Uh except for perhaps the all alcohol license the average was 1643 and we are at 2420. But all of the other
categories, um, wine and malt, package store that's is all alcohol, a package store that's just wine and malt, um, for clubs uh, for farm uh, or breweries and a one-day um, liquor license. We are
very much um, in the neighborhood. So um, based on that, the licensing committee met on the 26th of February to review these and came to that conclusion that I just stated and recommended
that um the council um adopt the current uh fee schedule for East Long Meadow for 2025 and that going forward the committee would con conduct a um bianual um
canvasing of areas area communities again to make sure that we were um in the neighborhood and keeping pace. >> Great. >> Thank you. Any uh comments? Questions? >> Sure. Ralph, >> is this a proposed increase for East
Long Meadow? >> No. because there are current >> then the fee schedule within our book is incorrect because I've got it at 2200 >> and last September we voted to move it
to uh increase each category by 10%. >> Okay. I just haven't received the updates then. >> Okay. >> The good book. >> That's no problem. I'll check into that. I I would definitely agree then. It
looks like we finally caught up to need to be and >> competitive. >> Exactly. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> Thank you, Kathy. I would agree that they're pretty well in line and there's no reason to increase them at time, but but as you said, it's not as if we're
like wildly above or below in any of the categories to our neighbors. >> Any other comments or questions? >> Just one more. Do we have a separate fee? So I know um one of the meetings I missed in December uh we voted to adopt
u mass law which allows a beer and wine license to be converted to Yeah. >> Oh the conversion. Yeah. >> But again so from what I understand the state doesn't see it quote unquote as a conversion.
Um, do we need to set something aside or a column that just says >> so they can convert they can convert from um wine and m or beer and wine to all alcohol. Correct. >> Yes.
>> And they're the same price, right? >> Um, wine package. >> No, they're they're a little more than double. So I think if they go to the next category the assumption is they will have to pay the differential >> and I is
>> that an assumption or did we vote that that >> did we vote? I don't know. >> I'd have to look back. I don't remember off the top of my head. >> There was discussion about um that they would have to pay the the fee for the
alcoholic. H >> there's only if I recall three establishments in that situation and at the time then clerk uh Jeanie um noticed all three of those
establishments that about the the change and offered them the opportunity to avail themselves of that and there was um no response from any of saying they would go forward. Now, they still can do that in the future, but at
the time they were all satisfied with their status. >> The main reason I'm asking is I had received an email asking if our town had adopted uh that law. >> We did that. We did >> if we uh created um a fee schedule based
on on that. And I was like >> I just assumed it would have been hey if you convert to all alcohol All right, >> we definitely talked about >> it would be, but again, I wasn't at that meeting, so I don't know if you guys >> That was in early December, correct?
>> I I know I'm certain we adopted it. >> Yep. >> And there was discussion around if Lency chose to move from that their current category to the all alcohol uh that the
obvious uh new fee schedule would take over. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Just want to I did verify the everything's been updated. You just don't have the >> I just don't have the paperwork. Yeah. >> So, the the fees were adjusted and they
show on the code online. They just you don't have the updated sheets yet. >> Thank you for checking. >> I probably have them somewhere. >> They just haven't made it into it. >> Yeah. >> Any other comments or questions? Okay, seeing none. Good on that. So,
next under financial matters, we have accepting the MSBA, which is the Massachusetts School Building Authorities Accelerated Repair Program Grant for Maple Shade Elementary School's partial roof replacement project and uh voting to appropriate $2,894,260
for the purpose of paying those costs. >> Hi, Tom. Hi, >> Gordon made it. >> I know you like to come up. >> I'm just here for more. >> Okay. All right. Uh so um I think
everybody heard we did make it into the which we assumed we did make it into the MSBA accelerated repair program. Um I think the only thing that may be a tad confusing is the full appropriation and that's because of this cash flow thing
that we have going on with the reimbursements and when we get that back. So we really have to appropriate the whole thing. Last meeting we talked about uh with all of the Sorry about the length of this motion by the way, whoever has to read it. Um moving all
the money from projects that are completed and moving the balances into this project. We're only going to expend another $700,000 or so um after all the reimbursement. Uh however, we don't know
the timeline what that's going to look like. Uh so we just have to appropriate the entire thing. Uh it does say the word borrow in here, but again we'll probably end up uh depending on how the timeline falls. If we have to borrow, we would just borrow from ourselves. So
we're not doing a ban and paying interest on anything. Um so that's really the the gist of this novel of a motion that is about to be read. And as you said, that borrowing from oursel thing was what we had talked about at some previous meetings with the
interest that we've made from free cash and other funds. So >> yeah, there >> anything anything to add? >> No. Um I also apologize for the length of the motion part of doing business with >> Why don't you read it?
>> They like their language. They like >> disclaimers I suppose the best way to say it. But uh ultimately getting a um a beneficial grant with it, >> right? If you work through the process,
which takes a little time as you know. >> And so they'll just be instead of doing a vote for free cash now and then the bid comes back a little different or the project's a little less or more, we'll just we'll do it when we need to do it and we won't have to worry about uh
doing more than one vote. Excuse me. >> Makes sense. >> Any other comments or questions before we >> quick question? >> Um just timing of the project. Is it looking for like this summer?
>> So that's the hope. Um what they're working on now is getting all the bid documents out. If they can get it out by the end of March, early April, then we would be in the most competitive time frame for summer projects. Yeah.
>> And so we should get better bids from contractors who had not filled their summer schedule yet. Um if we're delayed a little bit, >> then it becomes a little bit uh of a gamble. But with a roof project, you can conduct
school. It's not the greatest, but you can conduct school while they're working in groups. >> Great. >> All right, motion time. >> Happy to do it. >> Thank you, John. >> Uh, all right. Here we go.
I make a motion that the town of Eastong Meadow appropriate the amount of 2,894,260 for the purpose of paying costs of the Mapleshade Elementary School partial roof replacement project located at 175 Maples Shade Avenue, East Long Meadow.
The project will will replace the existing PVC roof system 38,100 square ft with a new PVC system including the payment of all costs incident or related there to the Maple Shade Elementary School partial roof replacement project
which proposed prepare would materially extend the useful life of the school and preserve an asset that otherwise is capable of supporting the required educational program and for which the town of Eastong Meadow may be eligible for a grant. from the Massachusetts Skilled School Building Authority set
amount to be expended under the direction of the Eastong Middle School Committee. To meet this appropriation, $653,32787 shall be re appropriated from a portion of the amounts borrowed on September 27th, 2018 to pay the cost of the
Metobrook school windows and doors replacement project. So that's $312,611.93. the Metobrook School modular classroom replacement project that is $340,63056 and the Maple Shade School interior ex interior and exterior door replacement
project $85.38 which projects are complete and for which no liabilities remain. $126,11425 shall be reappropriated from a portion of the amounts borrowed on February 22nd, 2022 to pay the cost of the Meadow
Brook school replacement project, which is $23,271.94 and the Maple Shade School steam pipe replacement project, which is $102,842.31. which projects are complete and for which no liabilities remain.
$39,531.97 shall be reappropriated from a portion of the amount borrowed on November 12th, 2020 for the Maple Shade internal and external replacement project, which project is complete and for which no liabilities remain.
And finally, $256,400 shall be reappropriated from a portion of the amount allocated on January 28th, 2025 for the feasibility study and initial schematic design to replace the flat sections of the roof at Maple Shade
Elementary School and treasurer with the approval of the town manager is authorized to borrow 1.800 1.818 $18,885.91 under MGL chapter 44 or pursuant to any
other enabling authority. The town acknowledges that the MSBA's grant and program is a non-entitlement discretionary program based on need as determined by the MSBA in any project costs town incurs in excess of any grant
approved by in from the MSBA shall be the sole responsibility of Eastwang Meadow. provided further that any grant town may receive from the MS project shall not exceed the lesser of
5648% 56.48% for a percent of eligible approved project costs as determined by the MSBA MSBA or two the total maximum grant amounts determined by the MSBA amount of borrowing authorized pursuant to this vote shall be reduced by any
grant amount set forth in the project funding agreement that may be executed between Esong Meadow and the MSBA >> second lot of numbers moving around >> yeah that was a lot >> honor just to confirm.
>> Yes. >> 1,818,885.91. >> Yes. >> Correct. >> I know it was 1%, >> but just for clarification. >> It's a lot of money. >> A lot of money. >> That is correct. >> Okay. Motion was made and seconded. Is
there any further discussion? >> Uh, I don't know that we need to, but just for safety, we'll do a roll call vote. Jim, >> yes. >> Kathy, >> yes. >> Anna, >> yes. >> Yes. Marilyn, >> yes. Ralph, >> yes. >> And John, >> yes. >> Motion passes. >> Awesome. >> Great news.
>> Thanks, Gordon. Great job. Thank you. >> That project together and hopefully it'll be underway before we know it. >> Okay, down. Next on the agenda under financial matters is uh establishing an energy
credit stabilization fund. Um, I'm sure Tom will have more details, but this was something that he had talked about, I think, at our last meeting when we did the broad overview of the uh budget projections uh over the next 5 or 10 years or so and relates to the new high
school building and how those increased energy costs may be uh offset here. >> Yeah. So, um, with the maybe, yeah, you maybe you can help me out with some of the numbers, but with the new, uh, the construction of the new
high school, we we ended up somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.3 $1.4 million in rebates, um, from National Grid. Um, and so we want to create a stabilization fund to sort of offset both the increase in the electric bill, as you can
imagine, uh, is quite steep in the budget this year based on a 100% electric building. Um, and the time it's going to take for solar uh, for the solar voltaic to to take away, it's like
30% of the somewhere in the 30% range of that electric bill. Um, you know, we talk about this a lot when we're setting up the budget about these increases that we have this small amount of money to that we can increase the budget every year and and an increase like this will
be easier for us to um take a little money into the budget out of the stabilization fund to sort of limit the impact on the budget certainly in the first year. Second year, we hope to have um the solar array lit up. I think we
got an email today from the design team that they finally accepted our application. Uh I've been getting an email a month for the last six months saying that our application was in jeopardy of being cancelled. Uh
but uh we're we're through that piece of it. Now, it's just going to be whatever the process is to to build and then come online. So, uh this this provides a place for this rebate money to go that you can appropriate into the utility
account to sort of ease our way into this big increase of an electric bill that that we're going to get from the new high school essentially. And I think your thought process was that once that's depleted, we would essentially remove this fund to >> we could just totally Yeah, we we would
put all the money back into the, you know, general fund reserve where or wherever you would like to, but we could do away with this account if we don't see any need for it anymore. >> Any comments or questions? Ralph, >> do we have a a rough idea on time frame
once the school's built? Are we looking another full year before the solar is installed? >> Do you have any >> the the solar panels and the system will be ready. It's really waiting on National Grid's time frame
>> to connect >> activated. Um and so >> so within five years national and grant >> going with the experience of uh Scansa and Fontaine and so forth and other
projects it can be six months to two years. >> So but they'll they'll have it ready to go. >> Right. Okay. >> Yeah. So, we'll do a little uh we'll make some phone calls behind the scene
to try to keep things moving as fast as possible. But again, this takes it takes time. It it's a process. Uh we aren't the only array that's probably trying to go online and on top of everything else. Uh so, thankfully, we have this this
rebate money that we can sort of help ourselves ease into the to the cost. Yeah, I think this is a good idea to help offset it so it's not one big increase that >> then you'd be used to it after the first year, but it's a lot to to chew in the
first year, but this will ease us into it. Any other thoughts or questions? >> Is it Is this just going to be for the electric bill? >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> According to them, Z
>> Yeah, they process. Yeah. The email said they processed it in zero days. >> Promise you not true. >> If there's nothing else, I'll entertain. It must be true. >> This took six months. >> I know, right? >> Sure.
>> I'm not as efficient. >> I make a motion that the town council vote to establish an energy credit stabilization fund. All energy credits and related revenue received in connection with the new high school and natitorium project construction in constructed in partnership with the
Massachusetts school building authority MSBA shall be deposited into the stabilization fund. Any appropriation from the stabilization fund shall require approval by a twothirds vote of the town council. Funds may be used to offset amounts equivalent to this
estimated generation of net metering credits expected from the installation of so solar panels at the high school until such time of those panels are installed and fully operational. In addition, funds may be used to mitigate budgetary impacts resulting from
increased electricity costs associated with operating a fully electric building. The town treasurer shall serve as custodian of the fund. The Department of Public Works in a coordination with the town manager shall have authority to expend funds in a manner consistent with
this vote in applicable law. Any interest earned shall remain in become part of the fund. >> Second. >> Motion was made and seconded. Any further discussion? Seeing none, we'll do a roll call vote as well. Jim, >> yes. >> Kathy, >> yes. >> Anna, >> yes.
>> Emmy, yes. Marilyn, >> yes. >> Ralph, >> yes. >> And John, >> yes. >> The motion passes. Thank you. Thank you. >> You got votes that came in. >> Okay,
>> that must be on. Next was just the quick update on the FY27 budget process. Um, no real update in terms of like numbers or anything this evening, but I think since the process worked pretty well last year, we'll follow that same
process this upcoming budget year and we'll hold the joint meetings in case any other counselor wants to attend and I plan on keeping the same committee members as assuming they're willing to serve and meet again. Um,
it seems like the K between Kim and Tom, they have most of the information prepared. So, we'll have a I don't know if we'll have the full presentation in advance of our first April meeting, but we will definitely have a budget presentation at our next meeting to kind
of start introducing some of the topics. So, a little earlier than usual. Um, and then we'll be ready to go for April. >> April. Super. >> A rough draft, we'll call it. Yes, the rough draft before the drop. >> So, I would ask that you as president
reach out to the >> committee members because I know one of them will not be able to um continue on. So, >> good to know. >> Yeah. Oh, boy. >> I will reach out. >> I think it's done. >> Done.
>> I think. >> Okay. Uh next we have approving our February 24th uh 2026 open session minutes. I make a motion to approve the February 24th, 2026 open session minutes. >> Second. >> Motion was made and seconded. Any
further discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor, please say I. I. >> Any opposed? Motion passes. Okay. Next, under old business, we have the 250th anniversary. Um, I did some looking into the shirts
that we had talked about at one of the last meetings. Um, it seems like the general price range is about $50 each depending on how far we want to take it. If we just wanted like a generic colored shirt or if we wanted
to have it like with the town seal or saying town council or something like embroidered on the the polo shirt or similar. I don't know what everyone's thoughts are on on that. >> I don't get to wear one.
Well, it doesn't change over until after >> the 4th of July. >> You're fine with something like town council and >> like something like just town council. Doesn't need to be anything grand. got
>> in the past back early in our inception as a council. We did have shirts that had the seal and then underneath town council. >> That would look good. >> Yeah, I think that would look nice. >> Do we have a color preference on shirt? Like right, white, red, or blue? It
seems like it's just solid colors that I could find, but red or white. That's kind of >> I would say red. Yeah, >> that was the color of the other one was red. >> All right, I'll put together a sample and we'll have something to look at.
>> Thanks, Connor. >> Great. Anybody have anything else for the anniversary topic so far? >> Not not really much. I have a meeting tomorrow, so naturally. Um, >> we'll have something to talk about next. We have some sort of placeholders for
the time capsule which is um kickoff will be on May 30th at the Norcross House. I think it's like 1 to 3 or something. And um I'm sure we'll have some dignitaries and
me. Um and then we're going to try to uh following Saturday try to do something at Brown Farm similar to Oktoberfest. um as another 250th sort of celebration kind
of day >> in which the capsule will probably be there. We're still trying to lay out the legalities of what we're going to allow in the new time capsule and um how to sort of write that down so we're
not being um sort of discriminatory in any way, but also keeping it um clean. Um, so we're we're kind of going through that, but um those those two backto-back Saturdays for now. Um, and obviously the
parade committee and Rotary Club have been uh marching along their same timeline, putting in tons of work to be ready for the fourth. So >> great. Thank you, Tom. >> Y have we thought about any um numbers
to put towards the celebration? I know um I was talking with um for the CPC. I know the historical commission had gone to them um hoping to get some money or whatever for uh one of the floats for the parade and um for a few other
things. And obviously CPC told him, well, you can't use these funds for that. And so my thought was our celebration account that we had talked about and I just wasn't sure if we had put any numbers to it or or if we had
thought about it at all as far as who it would support and what would it >> Yeah. >> if you don't mind. >> Of course. >> So I I had mentioned an amount last time I think but I don't I do hate asking you
for money in generic amounts. So that's why we have no appropriation yet. uh as we start getting uh some more of this information and what things are going to cost then then we'll get to that. But that was one of the things I thought of that I think some of the money got given
by CPC and then some not. So um certainly in support of our commissions and boards and departments and council and um I think those are going to be things that will end up on that tally pay from that account. At least that's
my opinion. One one of my thoughts was just that obviously the force's going to come up in a blink of an eye. >> Oh yeah. >> And um and all or who's ever going to use some of the money doesn't know how much they can or can't spend. It
makes it really hard to to plan um you know whether they want a huge float or a little float or or a wagon. And again, that's just some some thoughts and um obviously you're in touch with a lot of the committees and
all. So um I just wanted to throw it out there and just >> what do you guys want to spend on your float? >> That's a good point. I suppose we didn't necessarily think about like total amounts or ballparks anyway in terms of like all the different departments or
activities, you know, individual ones. I suppose I'm less concerned about as long as it's like groupwise under the total threshold. Um I don't know what we're thinking. Maybe >> we're thinking of putting it towards the next meeting so that we can think about it. >> That's a good good thing to think about.
>> Yeah. >> I would definitely more than a couple thousand dollars, but nothing is crazy. I'm thinking it's hundreds of thousands. >> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And again, that that was sort of the placeholder in our little calculation that we did to try to get down to 8% or whatever we had. Um, but I
do I wouldn't anticipate probably spending that to that amount. Um, but again, we don't really have a lot of the details yet. And so, um, you're right, hurry up and wait. Well, >> that's really because you don't know.
So, again, it's just keeping things going in the back of your mind. It'll probably be that intersection too between like we'll have a better idea on the range when we see what some of the ideas are and then we can kind of
whittle down what we're open to or not. >> Great. So, more to come at the next. Next, under old business, we had the transfer station waste oil tank replacement update. So, I know from our last meeting when we talked about it, we
had some questions and more research and I think Tom had some >> I had a conversation with pretty much everybody from DPW in the last two weeks because I couldn't remember the exact questions. Uh, so I'll go in no particular order. The old tank was about
a thousand gallons. So, I think if we're if we do it, we we go to the larger tank. Um it it really Daryl said he could really only remember a time when it got emptied more than once in a year. Um because it was leaking. No, I'm just
kidding. Uh the so the impact of the on the budget is not going to be enormous. Uh it'll be the initial sort of cost of the tank um
putting uh whatever foundation we're going to put underneath it, which when we pull our permits with D will most likely just be a slab on grade because they don't want us digging into the cap, >> right? >> Um signage, whatever D is going to require for placarding and and
instructions and and then we're just going to have to work it operationally. Um, you know, there may be a scenario where when you come with oil, you have to pull up and wait for the attendant for a few minutes while he gets the line down and
then goes over whether we decide to test on site, which will, you know, be a few hundred more dollars of maybe equipment to if we're going to test to make sure we're not accepting hazardous materials in the oil tank. Um, so, uh, as we've
been talking about this, I've gotten, um, input from more than a dozen residents that, uh, would like to see this come back. So, I I think, um, people have gotten used to the fact that they could go to their transfer station
and get rid of their oil. Um, and it's probably a thing that we should put back. Anything else, Ralph? >> So, do we need to take a vote to approve the purchase at least the cost for the
purchase of the tank because that's probably going to take a bit or do you want to wait and find out a rough cost on putting the slab in and everything >> which we have. I think the tank was good like 16 to the site. Uh, you know, three
or four grand to form and pour a pad signage. Uh why don't we why don't we the reason I didn't have an appropriation was because I'm I'm wondering if uh we can do it with our existing budget. Um whether whether
Bruce has some money that in a line item that he didn't spend that we can transfer. Um and then I have some money in my reserve account. Um and I think we can get it done with FY26 budget instead of uh putting it in the next one
certainly. But um if if if there's a need for some sort of free cash transfer of some amount um we we got to kind of go we're we're you know we're still in March so it's kind of hard to say that this account is
going to have money left in at the end because it may not. Um so I'd like to wait a little bit longer um to see if we can afford it in this budget. We need to at least vote on >> whether or not >> we want to
>> direct him to put it back there or >> It doesn't hurt to to do that. So, we're all on >> I think that was the general consensus last time and that's why you went on it, but >> yeah, I mean, it doesn't hurt to. >> And what do you think the total price
tag for putting it back would be >> if you were to guess? 22 cuz we most of it will be our labor. So it's just going to be the tank to get it to the site which was like 165 concrete and another four two grand for signage
supplies miscellaneous. So somewhere in there. >> And didn't we ask how much it costs per year to like maintain it? >> Yeah. Like the disposal and the disposal of the >> Yeah. And figure that out. No, because
it changes all the time and they've only they really don't have any of the records >> like how much it cost to get rid of the oil and it would change every time because every time they tested it, it wasn't just oil. So, there's really no good data. No.
>> Um, but if we can monitor what goes in, we'll only be paying to remove waste oil, which will be considerably cheaper. Um, not to mention, uh, in the existing expense budget at the transfer station as we're looking at
the up-to-date numbers, uh, the the staffing of the place with with DPW employees has saved us a ton of money. Uh, our our our some of our haulers have asked why we haven't been getting more dumpsters, and it's because we're
actually watching what goes in the dumpsters and not allowing things that don't go in there in there. So, um I think we shouldn't really have any problem with any operational increase in operational cost. It'll just be this initial cost to put it down and that'll
be that. >> And then just one question. >> Sure. >> For someone who would never bring their oil there because I don't >> where do you bring your oil >> anywhere? Wherever Parons puts his oil is where it goes.
>> How much is it? How much would it be to get rid of like I I mean can you find out because I know you probably don't know maybe you know this >> to get rid of the you know is it a would you say a thousand? >> Uh I think the biggest one on this one was like 5 560 530 >> just kind of get them an idea of how
much it cost to get rid of the oil. >> Okay. >> If it's clean oil, you know. >> Yeah. Yep. So I missed the question. >> Sorry. Just just to get an idea. >> It's fine. >> Thank you. >> Yep. I say sell it and make money off of
it. >> Well, if it's clean, we'll burn it in the garage. >> That's other thing. >> There you go. >> We can reduce BCWs by heat. >> Great. Any other comments, sir? >> I would say we just delay uh until we
actually get that information. >> Thank you. >> Works for me. Okay. Next under old business is an update on the local election ballot questions that we have for our June 2nd local election. Uh so we very
expediently got the attorney general's opinion back on our charter amendment question. Uh so I think we're good to proceed now with Jesse to figure out the language that we can put on the ballot, but at least it's really just at local control at this point and we're not
waiting on the state to let us do it. And then uh as far as the non-binding marijuana question, I know it seemed confusing in the packet getting an old uh ballot from 2023 as a sample, but that was >> our MLP vote,
>> but that was one of the most recent ones that we could find where we had a non-binding question on a local election ballot in town. So that was just showing a format that we could use to copy um should we put the marijuana question back on the ballot.
So I think at that point we're really just working through some of the details with Jesse on what we how we can phrase some of that. But I think at least we know what the the format would be. Everything would really be under a section header called ballot question.
It wouldn't be broken out into like different ballot question sections. It would just be like question one, probably the charter question, question two, and then only under question two or so would it say like a yes vote is non-binding, a no vote is non-binding, and so forth,
>> which he did confirm the law hasn't changed since point. So, we're we're good to go there. >> Perfect. So hopefully in the next couple meetings or so, I don't know if we'll have time to have it ready for next meeting, but definitely by the end of April, we'll have uh stuff that
we can vote on to to have our ballot squared away. >> So through the chair, can you um when >> when we talk to our attorney, Absolutely. ask him to um um how do I
want to say uh attempt to word the the question um in a little bit easier terminology because last time uh for the charter change no one understood it right >> absolutely I will be truthful um I I read it three times and I didn't
understand it and I was the one submitting it so I think the language has just got to be adjusted somewhat um out of um attorney language and into normal citizen language um because it
doesn't do any good for us to submit a question that no one understands. >> Yeah. They don't know what they're voting on and um that's not good for anyone. >> Oh, I completely agree. >> We could encourage him to to do a better job with the language. That would be awesome.
>> Work on that because I agree. It was it was hard that we couldn't put like the whole paragraph and show what was changing. But if you don't include enough of it and it was just boiled down to the one or two sentences, it didn't really make any sense what we were asking for.
>> Did Juny send out um >> like a postcard last year? >> Yes. Once we have the the actual language that would appear, then she had sent out a postcard cuz for charter questions specifically, it has to go to all registered voters in town. >> And then on that does it ex kind of it
gives the language, but does it explain it? I don't remember >> way to do that or is that like might not have room on a postcard size mailer? >> Yeah. >> Do that. >> Yeah, we might be able to depending on the format of the question if we can
explain like what a yes would do versus what a no would do. But I think whatever we put on the ballot tends to have to be very similar. I don't think we can deviate too much between the postcard and what >> is there anything we can put like in the reminder? Yeah, >> we might be able to come up with like our own oped or something and try to
explain it. >> Say, you know, this is this is what it is and this is what it means, >> right? >> So people don't think that they're voting for something >> that they're not. >> Yeah. And we could probably do something with LCAT, too. >> Yeah. And like maybe like Facebook, you
know what I mean? Get it out there so people actually understand it. >> Educational. >> Exactly. >> Right. >> That's a good idea. I'm sure we >> Yeah. Thankfully, we have some time to work on that. Absolutely. >> Jamie's in. >> Great.
So, next under new business, we had a presentation by VHB on the Centertown District Massing. >> Yeah. So, uh I think we you you can um we'll have uh Luke Mitchell here from VHB uh to go through the um the project.
We had gotten some grant funds to do some massings that provide some uh visuals on some of the well recognizable parcels in town. You I think you'll you'll recognize all the spots um to sort of show what um some developments
would look like uh both with I think a comparison between existing zoning and what a new zone would look like. Now, in all honesty, this was the uh based on the old language cuz this process started four or five months ago uh that
was withdrawn. So, you'll have to use your imagination a little bit depending on where we end up landing. Um but, um Luke's got some some great great visuals here to kind of get a feel for um what some of that future zoning could look
like um on on some of our parcels in town. Without further ado, hey Luke >> over there. >> Hey, how are you? Can you see me and hear me? >> We can above. >> Okay, great. Then the next test is can I
share my screen? So, let me try to do that. >> And while you're doing that, we just have one thing. >> Okay. Um, my son worked at VHB for a number of years. He's no longer there, but his wife is still there. She's a air quality control engineer,
civil engineer, and I don't think she had any in involvement with this particular application, but I just needed to disclose that I have that connection. >> Great. Thank you, Marilyn. >> You're welcome. >> The utmost.
>> Okay. Excellent. Um, can you all see this? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Okay, great. So, um, you know, as Tom said, I've been working closely with the planning director and the deputy town manager over the past few months, uh, to
assess in a way help visualize, uh, this proposed center town zoning, uh, mixeduse bylaw. Uh so it's a proposed zoning change that would allow multif family development in a pretty significant portion of the town center
where multif family is not currently allowed. Uh so the zoning change would also update dimensional standards uh as well as parking requirements throughout the district. So, we were asked to review how this
proposed resoning uh would impact the district uh and what type of development opportunities it would unlock in uh the properties that are located within the proposed district. It wasn't so much an exercise of evaluating
the relative merits of the proposed resoning, but rather uh an exercise in characterizing the impact that the resoning would have on these properties uh and to sort of visualize the type of development that could emerge and
compare that development with the type of development that could emerge given the existing zoning. Uh so so so really it's a comparative exercise. This is what's possible in these properties given the current zoning and if the
resoning were to pass this is what would be unlocked. This is what would become possible. So that that's the um the sort of gist of of the exercise that we've done here. Here's a quick agenda. Uh I'm not going to take too long on the slide deck. I'll try to get through it so I
can answer any questions. But start on the planning context. you know, what are the current conditions in the within the proposed district area, why the reszone, you know, what's the purpose of the resoning? Taking a closer look at the existing zoning and and the proposed
district. And then what we've done is we've focused on six opportunity sites. There are uh the number of properties within the proposed district numbers in the triple digits. So, we we didn't get the opportunity to look at every single one of them. What we did was we
identified six parcels uh that ranged in size and location and things like that so that we could get a more uh visceral sense of what the resoning would really do to these sites. So these are the sites we looked at. Stacy's dry cleaners, Rometos, Golden
Years, an existing single family home in the in the south of the district, the Carlin building property, and the Steve Graham acquisitions property. So, we'll I'll walk at a high level through those. First, uh on current conditions, here's some aerial screenshots from up high uh
that that show you the type of urban fabric that you have in the in the proposed district. Now, so what we can see here is that you find an urban form that is very segregated between residential and commercial uses, right?
which is which is very typical of the period during which most of these properties were built out. Uh and you know segregating land uses like this from a planning perspective uh has certain impacts that are well chronicled. For example, people end up
spending more time in the car. Uh and you end up with a a big visual impact uh from space that's used for driving and for parking which can really be seen in in all three of these photographs. lots of space dedicated to a vehicular
infrastructure. Uh so segregating uses like this also means that the neighborhood is uh generally speaking less walkable. Uh which you can also detect from these photos. Uh and the only thing the only other thing I draw
your attention to on these photos is that there doesn't really appear to be a strong spatial or visual connection between the different properties represented in the photos. uh you know from the perspective of urban design placemaking connection and
connectivity is a fundamentally important piece of that. So one could say that that's a gap in this district um looking at these photos. So why reszone? This is language that comes directly from the proposed zoning bylaw.
Um so I'll just read it out loud because there's a lot of words on the screen. I won't ask you to read it yourself. First is to allow for greater variety and flexibility in the development of housing types integrated with business and commercial uses. Second, to generate positive tax revenue, that's a good thing, right, for the town while
providing the opportunity for new business growth and additional jobs. Three, reduce vehicle trip miles by providing services within walking distance of the residential units. Four, to promote the efficient use of land and existing parking supply and limit the
expansion of surface parking, which we saw in the photos, uh, by encouraging shared parking. That's another piece of the proposed bylaw. Five, provide additional housing with the goal of maintaining housing accessibility. Six, promote a vibrant community core. seven
promote the preservation of open space uh which you'll see is also baked into the proposed bylaw. So here is the existing zoning map outlined in black is the proposed uh district. Uh so as you can see it
currently the properties that um inhabit this proposed site occupy three different zoning districts. One is the business district with 74 parcels shown here in pink. Another is the industrial district with 77 parcels shown in
purple. And the third not very well represented within this area, but that's the commercial district. There's eight parcels total. Um so that that's what's out there now. It's about 160 parcels total.
Here is a slide. Again, lots of information on here. I'll try to simplify it at a high level. What this shows is the dimensional requirements in gray that exist out there today and then at the bottom in blue that's the proposed reszonings uh dimensional
requirements. So starting at the left you have the front setback. The current setbacks that you find out there in your existing zoning are deep. 25 ft minimum for the business district, 25 ft minimum for certain types of development in the
industrial district, and 50 ft back from the street uh for c for other types of development in the industrial district. The proposed reszoning would only allow up to 15 ft. So, in other words, you're going to take your buildable area and pull it much closer
to the front of the site. you have a max setback instead of a minimum setback. Uh the next two columns are the side setbacks and the rear setbacks. Uh there's some degree of setbacks baked into the existing zoning. The proposed resoning would reduce that to zero zero
feet on the side and the rear. Max lot coverage isn't really comprehended in the proposed resoning. Um so in in the existing zoning there's a cap on how much of the lot can be covered by development that goes away in the new
proposed zoning. Maximum density of residential units. Of course that's not uh included in the current zoning because multif family housing isn't allowed. The proposed resoning would allow up to 15 dwelling units per acre, which is a relatively
modest density, but definitely allows for some appealing development opportunities for investors. And just to finish it off, minimum open space 10% is the requirement of the proposed zoning. Max height 45 ft, which is more or less
in keeping with what you see in the existing zoning. So, you're not seeing a big jump in the allowed height. So, sorry, a lot of information there, but it's all in the in the proposed bylaw, of course. Uh, so here's just a quick slide on the density bonuses that uh
that are also an important part of the proposed bylaw. So the proposed center town district will allow up to 15 units per acre as I said but if uh proponents uh will do uh any number of three
different things then they can they can unlock additional density. So if that could include an affordable housing so for every affordable unit that they plan in a market rate development they get 0.5 additional market rate units per acre. So in other words, they can build
a little more density if they include some affordable housing. The second trunch is shared parking. Uh so for every shared parking space planned, you get um 0.25 additional units per acre uh of develop developable um space. And
then the third is open space. So if you include more open space in your proposed project, then that also unlocks additional density. you have a maximum overall cap of your density at 20 units per acre. So, and you know there's a lot
of details in there. The the the basic gist is this that if you uh if your proposed project includes things that benefit the community, you get a little bit of extra uh developability out of your parcel. It's pretty it's increasingly common across the
Commonwealth. You see provisions like this in a lot in a lot more zoning these days. Okay, so here's the proposed center town district. Uh there's a requirement that 10% of nonresidential ground floor is required. In other
words, uh this this is calling for mixed use for retail space on the ground floor. Uh we have some thoughts on that one. Uh mostly that it that that should only be applied if at all to large parcels within this uh within this area.
If you have a very small parcel, you're only going to be be able to develop one or two units of housing. So, uh it's it's it's doesn't make a lot of sense to require that a development like that should set aside space for retail. Um, so I think that that was the one thing
that we picked up on that that we'd really kind of take issue with. But and then and then at that even for the larger parcels, this could really be a deterrent for uh developer interest because of the fact that you're going to require that mixed use. But I'll keep
moving. If anybody wants to talk more about that, happy to do so after I get through the slide deck. So allowed uses multif family residential buildings uh and in addition to other uh uses which are already allowed within the the uh these districts.
Okay. On parking residential 1.25 spaces per unit is the requirement and then with with some additional considerations for other types of uses which I won't go too far into now. So, uh, taking a look at those six opportunity sites that I mentioned, here's the map, uh, and here
are those sites outlined in red and highlighted in yellow. Um, as I said, they represent a variety of scales. Some are smaller, some are larger, some are located in the business district, some are located in the
industrial district. Okay. So, I'm going to walk through each one of them one by one. Starting with Stacy's dry cleaners. This is an example of a very small site, 18 acres located in the business district. Uh here's an axonometric view
of the existing conditions on the site. You have a vacant building out there uh surrounded by a parking lot. So, this is an image that shows the redevelopment scenario under the current zoning. As I mentioned, you have really
big setbacks on a property like this. Uh, and what you'll find on many sites in the district, including this one, is that the actual setbacks, which by the way, uh, it's a it's a nonconforming site. If you look at the existing
building out there, it's right in the middle of of the of the front yard setback. But what you'll see is that if somebody were to purchase that site and eliminate the building and try to build something new, they'd be really hard strapped to do that without seeking a variance because those setbacks, the
front setbacks uh affects two sides and you really end up eliminating most of the site from what's developable. So in other words, to put it simply, the site's current zoning and setbacks don't allow enough space for any type of development uh out there. So, um,
interesting to to see that. This wasn't the only site like that, by the way. So, uh, in the given the proposed zoning, uh, I'm just going to click through a few different scenarios. Uh, one thing that could be built is a duplex that you
see here given the size of the parcel. You know, two units would be allowable and that could be arranged as a duplex. For an example, scenario two, uh, three units built as town homes. This would be relying on the density bonuses to get to
that third uh, unit that could be allowable given the proposed reasoning. Uh, in a third scenario, this is just a different configuration of three units, less common these days, but a classic New England triple decker that could be built under the proposed resoning on the
site. Uh moving over to Romito, which is almost an acre in size and in the very unique building that you see out here, which is also vacant uh and which clearly served a very specific purpose when it was when it was active and it
was designed uh accordingly. Uh so this is what you see out there. Now it's a 4700 foot building currently vacant. Uh this is what's possible under the current zoning. You have those wide
setbacks uh within the parcel. Uh but of course multif family is not allowed. So you would you would need to build something commercial like an office building for example. Uh and and so this is an example of what you could build. 4,000 square ft of office space
uh and and parking uh along with it. under the proposed resoning. Here's one scenario. You could build up to 14 units of housing. Uh and and this is this is represented at three stories in the
image. Um but that would be a building footprint of around 7,300 square ft. Uh and this would allow plenty of space for parking as well as open space. Um so that would be the the 12plex and the duplex that you see uh here. So this is
just one potential outcome of the resoning. A second scenario, this is using the density bonus uh mechanism. A proponent could build uh a 17plex apartment building as well as that duplex on Elm Street uh to develop uh 19
units of housing. And again, that's the max that would be allowable uh under the the max density. And here's a third um a third scenario which is a mixeduse 12plex apartment building with groundf flooror retail as
well as that duplex on Elm Street. Again, you know that that 15 dwelling units per acre even with that the density bonuses isn't going to max out these sites. You're on a site like this, you'll still have plenty of space for open space and things like that. So,
moving on to Golden Years, which is a 0. 29 acres site. Um, currently, uh, you have a 7800 square foot building footprint, which occupies almost all of the site. Uh, and I last we checked, the building was
currently for sale. So, again, another underutilized property. Uh, under the current zoning, this is what you could build. Those 25- ft setbacks on Prospect Street and Shaker Road would only allow for a small portion of this site to be developable
again without some type of variance. Uh and again, the same condition here. The existing building is non-conforming with the underlying zoning. Um so, uh if if you if a proponent was to develop something here, could it be multif family, which is prohibited? would need
to be an office building or something like that set back in a very significant way from the street. Under the proposed zoning, here's one scenario of four town homes that could be built on site with the associated parking and a decent amount of space set
aside for open space. Uh so only 32% lot coverage. uh with the density bonuses, a proponent could unlock the the bonus to get to get five units on site. And if the proponent were interested in
groundf flooror commercial, here's a third opportunity, which would be a mixeduse quadplex with ground floor retail that again would have would take advantage of that zero foot or sorry 15 foot max front yard setback and really
have a nice street wall to interact with Shaker Road. Um, next site is currently a single family home in the in the southern area of the district. Just about just over half an acre. It's currently occupied by
single family home. You could you could say that this is an underutilized site given the potential value of a site like this. Um, under the current zoning would need to be something industrial because it's within the industrial zone. Uh, a development that could look something
like this. Uh, and here's so under the proposed reasonzoning one scenario. This is an 8plex apartment building that could be built on site that could really take advantage of the location of the of the rail trail and have it have a nice
landscape connection to to that asset. Uh, here is with a density bonus. A proponent could unlock the ability to build up to 12 apartments. Uh and here's an example uh that includes that mixeduse component with the ground floor retail with eight units
above. Uh so moving on to the Carlin building property. This is an example of a larger site within the industrial district. This is a 4 acre site, right? So you can see on the image here, most of you, I'm sure, are familiar with with the site. Uh you see a very large single
family building which which occupies the majority of the site. It's a building that's in really poor condition and deteriorating. So, uh, if a proponent were to purchase the site and build something new under the current zoning, then it would most
likely be industrial or warehouse. And something like this would be allowable within the current zoning. This is a 65,000 square ft footprint building, which I believe, if I'm recalling correctly, is the max size of a single building within that district. So that
you could, you know, a proponent could develop something like this and have the space that they need for loading and for employee parking and for everything else and still respecting those uh those setbacks as needed and even have some site some space for um parking for truck
parking over there on the um to the right of the screen. So under the proposed resoning a few scenarios here. Uh this is a 61 unit apartment complex uh that could be built out with some ground floor retail and
sufficient space for parking and certainly for open space as well. Building would only cover about 15% of the lot area. Scenario two really just a different configuration of multif family housing.
This is a mixeduse 47 unit apartment building with groundf flooror retail. And then in the rear of the site, 14 cottage style residences, which is an increasingly popular type of residential development that could be built. Um, just showcasing that you could really or
that a proponent could really achieve a a mix of of residential unit types on the site. And then here with the density bonuses unlocked 81 units of housing. Last site is the Steve Graham acquisition site. Uh here's what's built
out there today. A lot of open space uh and a few smaller buildings. This is what's allowable under the current zoning. Right. Again, that 65,000 square foot building of industrial or warehouse space. Um that
could have some four unit sort of mezzanine envelope associated with it for offices. uh and plenty of space for parking and for loading. Again, may not to point out the obvious, but perhaps not exactly the type of development that that you'd want
to see in the town center, right? Maybe once upon a time when the zoning was first established, but now a little bit out of keeping with the with the more recent development that's come up around it. Uh proposed zoning. Here's one redevelopment scenario. This is 108
units in a mix of unit types with some ground floor retail right along street uh that could take advantage of Maple Street running alongside of it as well as the rail trail. Really, I mean, this would be a really exciting development opportunity uh for the right investor.
Scenario two, 108 units in a mix of unit types including ground floor retail and Maple Street. So, similar just different configurations of unit types. And then third, with the density bonus, a proponent could unlock the ability to
develop around 144 units in a mix of uh types. This shown here is largely apartment buildings. So um conclusions uh and what you know what we found doing this study was at
first this is and this is I think pretty important is that the existing zoning when you really get into it prevents meaningful reinvestment on many of the parcels within the district. Uh several sites can't be redeveloped at all under the current rules. I well let me caveat
that they could couldn't be redeveloped without seeking relief from the underlying rules. Third, multif family housing is effectively prohibited in in the vast majority of the town center. Uh fourth, the center town district, the
proposed reszoning unlocks real buildable options on every site that was tested. Uh and fifth, the reasonzoning would create opportunity, not obligation. In other words, obviously it would it would it wouldn't necessarily mean that these developments would
happen, just that they would become possible. Uh and then lastly, oh yeah, I sort of um put a pin in the topic of the ground floor commercial requirements. So just to lean into that, it could work well on
larger parcels potentially with street frontage, uh where the the developer would have the ability to do something like that. It's not practical on the smaller infill parcels. Uh it can certainly unintentionally discourage redevelopment
uh on small but also on large lots I would I would really say. But uh if it is applied, it should really only apply to parcels of a of a certain minimum size or something like that. So lots of information there. Oh, sorry. One last slide. Density bonuses uh because that's
unique to to uh East Log Meadow. So just a few thoughts on that that density bonuses really can be effective as an incentive to help advance the community's planning goals becomes a win-win situation from our perspective. We've advocated for density bonuses in a
number of different communities and have seen them have a positive impact where they were deployed. Second, again more impactful on large redevelopment sites. Uh large sites can reach up to 20 units per acre and small sites will naturally
redevelop at the base 15 units per acre. Uh and then sorry this really is the last slide I promise. But what this what the center town district could do for East Long Meadow if there was support for it locally is to introduce housing types that don't exist in the in the
center today. I haven't spoken a lot about housing production, but obviously there has been a housing production's been too slow in the region and in the state. So, this could help address that. Second, it could encourage reinvestment in vacant and aging properties, which there there are several that we looked
at. Third, it could support walkable serviceoriented town center of the type that's that's more popular with investors and with many uh residents these days. Fourth, reduce pressure to build on open land elsewhere in town.
That's important. If if there's opportunities to develop in the town center, a lot of developers are going to gravitate there instead of more peripheral spaces. Uh which could have great uh which would be much better in terms of the fiscal impact on utilities
and services and things like that. And then lastly, could really create a long-term framework for true community center that has the mixeduse vibe to it. and the walkable active district that most people think of when they think of the phrase town center. So, um thank you
for listening. Uh there was a lot there. We enjoyed taking a look at all these different parcels and and the proposed resoning and happy to uh discuss or answer any questions you might have. >> Great. Thank you. Does anyone have any
questions for the presenter? Good boy. >> Sure. >> Um, can we see can we can can we get his face so we can >> bring him into the meeting? >> He's up. >> He's up in the corner. Right. Right.
>> Um, Lou, can you hear me? >> Yes. >> Can you could you stop sharing, please? >> Yeah, we don't need the >> Perfect. Who's got the big >> I'm Marilyn Richards. Um I was the one
who asked for um you just shared the information that my son and daughter-in-law have worked with VHB in the water town. Um I also um aside from being town counselor, I was on the planning board. So zoning has always
been for me um very important. Very important. Um thank you for this this um presentation. It gives us an idea of perhaps what can happen or perhaps what shouldn't happen.
And I say that as respectfully as I can. Um we don't even have a bylaw yet. We did have one and we we rejected it without prejudice. And um we also
haven't even approved the zone. the zone needs to be go before planning and then the council and we need to look at do we really want our town center to be that large. Um and that that's work for us in the future. Um, I guess the first one of the first
things I want to chat about is um the proposed criteria for the center town district in terms of setback sideyard um lot coverage. Where did that information come from?
>> The So for the existing districts, it came from your bylaws. >> No, no, I'm talking about the proposed I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. >> Oh, so it came from what we were given as what was at one point a proposed resoning.
>> So that came that came from us, >> correct? Oh, yeah. >> Okay. That that's a lot. Thank you. >> Yeah. No, all of the all of the underlying um proposed allowable land uses, parking requirements, dimensional standards, and
everything else were were handed to us. We were simply uh assessing what they might what impact they might have on the ground. >> Okay. >> Um and just one other thing and then I'll let other people speak if they have anything to say. Um with respect to how
we are currently configured as a town center, traffic has been a huge issue and it continues to be a huge issue. Was there any thought to that when you were making out these plans or um I mean I
can't see going forward with something like this until we address what's already there. >> Yeah. So I so that was outside of our scope. you know, BHP does a lot of traffic impact assessments, and there's there's so much science to it, as you
know, that uh I I I wouldn't even want to venture to to postulate based on the exercise that we prepared here. Um, but so I I I couldn't speak too much to that. Um, you know, we'd I'd have to have a much more advanced understanding
of of existing traffic patterns uh and what the impact would be. So, I can't So, I can't speak to that. That wasn't really part of our exercise. >> Okay. Thanks, Luke. >> Would you mind coming forward? >> Thanks for having me up here. So, I just want to clarify that we had um heard
from the council that it was difficult to visualize what bylaw language looks like. And so before the bylaw that was proposed was pulled off the table, we had already gotten a grant and initiated this project to create some visualizations for what the zoning today
looks like and then what the zoning in the proposed bylaw would look like. So these are not pl they're not planned. This is not a project. This is just um like a visualization project so that you could see side by side today what the zoning looks like and if we had moved
forward with the proposed language as it was initially before you these are the different housing types and projects that could come forward based on the language that was proposed >> and I apologize if I wasn't clear in my opening that's what I was saying that we
had started this before we had withdrawn the and that's all that that's all that's all Luke had to go on. So, >> thank you, Rebecca. >> Any other questions? >> I have a question for Tom, if I may. >> Sure.
>> Let me back up. >> Um, okay. I realize that this information was presented previously >> and that's what the plans were drawn from. Um, we've talked about, you and I have
talked about proposed density in the town center and um, it it troubles me that every time I see something, it says 15 units up to 20 units. The application for the grant said the same thing. Mhm.
>> Um and I'm not um certain that we have done our homework enough to even consider those numbers until we know what kind of an impact we're going to have in our town center. Um you know, there's certain times where there's no traffic and that's usually a Sunday
morning and and then there are times when the traffic's backed up. Um, we talk about creating a proposal that is more walkable in our community or in our town center. How's that going to happen with how our our layout is right now?
It's unsafe to walk in the town center. >> And this is and this is why we're having all the conversations, right? So, when you talk to developers, they they sort of need to get a certain amount of density for a project to be feasible for them. >> So, we're building it for developers and
not for East Long Meadow. No, it's it's not an exercise unless you find a happy medium where we can live with what a developer wants to build. If we come in with four units per acre, no one's going to build that. And then there and then
there's the potential that we end up with a warehouse scenario where the the same amount of traffic is vehicles we don't want to be on Maple Street. And so this is why we're having the conversation of is there
where what can we this is why we did the exercise, right? What can we handle? What do we want to see? And if the number is gets low enough, it's sort of a feudal enterprise. We should just go to all business and commercial. So, we
get rid of the industrial because no one's going to come do mixed use at 20% commercial and eight units. The Do you know what I'm saying? That's not going to >> I know what you're saying. I guess I'm
just struggling with um Are we supposed to understand that what we looked at just now is something that we can handle? >> No, it's informationational. >> All right. Okay. I I just want to make sure >> based on language that we already would >> I don't think any of us know what we can handle based on what has been done.
>> Okay. But the traffic coming off a site under the current zoning is not going to be much different. So if somebody were to put something on one of these particular parcels, there's still going to be traffic coming off the site and it
wouldn't be too much different then. Right. But when you put 20 units per acre >> and all those parcels will come into play in one way or another. >> Well, I think >> that will create a different scenario. >> If I was reading the room, the that was
part of the reason we pulled the bylaw was that the density was too much. >> Okay. Well, >> true. >> You read the room very well. >> I thank you. And so that's why and again that's why I sort of was was pleading at the beginning to sort of use your imagination because Luke had no choice
but to use what we gave him. And what we gave him was the bylaw language that we withdrew. >> Okay. >> All right. >> So sorry. >> This is just simply what that old bylaw would look like on these six sites. And so if your feeling is that's too much,
you already had that feeling and that's why we withdrew. >> Does that make sense? It does. It does. It does. >> So, this is this is where we're getting into this visual visualization part where if if you're thinking that's too
much when you see it, you say we can't handle that much. Well, then we're going to have to come back with a different number. And what I'm saying is if that number gets too low, then >> the center town district is just not feasible for Esau metal, which is what
we sort of talked about all the way back before we started 40R. >> Okay. >> Right. What >> if it doesn't work for us, we're not just going to push through a a bylaw because >> it checks all the boxes from a planning standpoint or a development standpoint.
if if if you don't think that this is going to work for Esau Meadow, but again, we're going to have to get to a number that may be uncomfortable for people to actually purchase the property and build the units. It's that's that's a fact.
>> So, I guess I want to say one other comment, and I'm sorry, folks. When we've um when we first thought about the town center and we talked about what we were looking, we were looking at the industrial zone as being the most um
potentially egregious zone, if you will, because it's our most relaxed zone, and the criteria of development in that zone wouldn't meet our town center, >> right? >> Um but where did housing come in to the
town center? when I mean I don't know when that happened when there was all of a sudden this push for housing and and I don't have any problem with housing but it has to be the right kind of housing. It has to be the right balance of housing. >> Yep.
>> And um I don't get that feeling. It's I feel like we're we're we're caught in this roller coaster of you know just pushing forward showing us information. We the first thing we have to do is address
what our bylaw is going to say, >> right? >> And then determine what's >> well and again these are all helpful comments to writing the new bylaw. This is the conversation that we want to have, right? the the the residential came in because of the mixeduse
development. So, we could keep our storefront but also allow more which would make the make it more feasible for a developer and allow our properties to uh be more valuable
and we could collect more revenue from those properties. And so it's a question of how big is too big. And if that number doesn't get to over too small, then it we're not going to do it. We can't because no one will build
that bylaw. They won't. So, and again, I think I said this way on back too. If if the if the only solution we can come to right now is change the I to B or C, well then let's do that yesterday
because industrial we know how we feel about warehouses, >> right? >> No, that's true. >> Let's let's let's remove that from the playing field at minimum and go if you want business and commercial down there, let's let's zone
appropriately. And also if a 50-foot building, industrial building, um does not seem to fit in our town center, um you know, I'm also concerned about um when you're
building structures, how they reflect to the surrounding residential pieces that are right next door. Um Stacy's is a perfect example. I mean, there's a house right that's the residential property starts. Yeah. >> And our zoning is a lot like that all
around, >> right, >> the town center, >> right? And I don't I don't even think we touched on that. I think Luke did a good job of talking about the setbacks and what those are. But there would also be a buffer there, too, wouldn't there? >> Well, there should be, >> right? That's abuing a residential zone. There would be a buffer. There had to
be. >> So, even more limiting on that parcel. Like, somebody's going to have to use that building forever cuz you can't build anything else currently. and and it's at least it's grandfathered in now and you can use the space.
>> Thanks for your time. >> Thank you. This is what I we I just want to keep having these conversations because there there at some point if we can't get to a level then center town district can just not be a conversation and and we don't have to we don't have
to talk about it >> because if or or or get rid of mixed use or whatever. Okay. again. We can we can pivot if we have to pivot. >> Thanks. >> Thank you. >> Other thoughts, >> Ralph?
>> Just just one quick one. Um I noticed obviously uh recently we had Chase Bank go in, >> purchased a property at 3.2 million, tore the building down, put up a new bank. >> Y >> um so they're they got to be into that for 4.5 million. >> Yep.
I guess my concern is if we say, "Hey, you can do residential housing, how many houses or units would you have to put on that parcel to cover $4.5 million cost?" >> Well, I think all the neighbors are mad at Chase for paying that much for the
property. Uh, and probably the assessor, too. But, uh, I I Yeah. And I don't I don't know if >> that's that's part of my thought is um how many units are we going to have if we choose to go that way? Would you have
to have just even to make it affordable enough to be able to put them in? It seems as though the prices in our town, especially in the business area and all now, have gone up so high. >> Yep. >> That the only thing that can afford to move in, well, seems to be banks. And I
think we have 17 of them. >> Um, of which I've recently been made aware that Ramitos has sold. >> I did hear that. >> And, um, I'm not sure if you heard they are under contract to put a bank back there. >> Okay. >> Oh, wow.
>> Um, >> so seems like we are the town of banks. Um, >> and again, that that's what I've heard through the grapevine. We'll know coming forwards. and uh you know as far as that goes but we have other issues you know
like the raidos um I don't know if Luke took into um account the fact that there's a brook right at the property line and you have all the conservation issues and all um I know the parcel that you talked about on Shaker Road the
single family house um the owner of that actually came in front of the town quite a few years ago to um remove the house and put in a pizza shop and the neighbors were so adamant. They were,
you know, they didn't want any changes. Leave it a house, leave it this, leave it that. And I mean, these are all things that we have to work through. And, um, you know, I was looking in the center, um, Golden Years property that you mentioned, >> sweet. Um well that house I I know our
historical commission is attempting to um make that house that house is our oldest commercial property in town and they want to make it historical which would mean you couldn't even redo it. Um I mean and these are all things behind
the scenes that I don't expect you to be aware of. Um that throw curve balls in. Um, >> the other thing I would say is that probably more more of a a greater risk than than a developer coming in and building a warehouse would
be that no developer comes in to do anything on a site that doesn't allow multif family that's 4 acres and that you end up with the blighted properties that sit on some of those properties continuing to deteriorate year after year, potentially decade after decade
because the industrial market is very flow right now and warehousing and commercial you that's great that some folks are building some banks but you know a lot of commercial real estate is just the demand isn't there versus
residential that has a gigantic unmet demand you spoke about some of the financial difficulties of building housing well you know the developers have different tools that they can use to to make the the proformas work so I I think the greater risk than than somebody coming in and building a
warehouse is that some of those older underutilized parcels, including all the ones we looked at, not if you don't shake up the zoning to allow more options, then probably nothing is likely to happen in many of them. And I that could and some of the blight that we saw
out there if you multiply it by a few years wouldn't wouldn't doesn't sound appealing. So I I think that there is that's that might be one impetus or argument for the reasonzoning, but I'm just a consultant that I'm just here to weigh in technically, but I just wanted
to share that observation about the market. >> So can I just follow up real quick? And again, this is just a generalized question. I see so many um cities, whether they're in Massachusetts or elsewhere in the country um that are
blighted, that are going downhill. They offer apartments in the city. They offer businesses. They offer all of this stuff. And yet they are in a lot worse condition than what the town of East Long Meadow is. So if they're offering all of that, wouldn't all of those
cities be vibrant and running and going and um I I I just I I don't think I guess what I'm saying is I don't think it necessarily um is a factor on just changing the zone to allow this or that. I think there's a
lot more involved such as local politics and um you know people wanting to come to the community for different reasons for good school systems and stuff like that and that's the way that's the reason we're so um >> what what what's the best word that I
want um unique >> attractive um for residents. I mean I believe right now we only have 20 houses on the market and most of them have been on within the last 24 days. Um, it doesn't I mean obviously people want to
move here and banks want to come here. >> There must be money here. >> And I'm just curious like I said well well just a quick response to what the first thing you said which is that there's a lot of really blighted places that change the zoning and the investment still doesn't come. Well sure
that's because that you know they're so blighted. I think for the other reason you just mentioned, if if this if the type of reszoning that we've been talking about was actually carried through, there'd be a lot of investor interest right out of the gate, I think.
And I and the question is, is that a good thing or a bad thing? It depends on your perspective, but I I do think that a reasonzoning would have a tremendous impact on development developer interest in the community. Um so but again that
comes down to a judgment call if that's good or bad. If there's if there's concerns about uh fiscal impacts, traffic impacts, visual impacts, then that's certain obviously something that you would have to take seriously. >> Thank you.
>> Just a quick question. Luke, you mentioned in terms of the requiring of commercial space on a certain size of a of a lot, is there like an industry standard or a recommendation of where that should where that cut off is?
>> Not really because it's not really a standard to say 10%. You know, I think I think that that's kind of a unique um provision. So in terms of what how large a parcel or a building would need to be to have that really make sense, I guess
I can only answer just sort of common sense wise, which is that it would, you know, um if you're going to or from a proforma perspective, for example, on a case-by case basis, say you built a eight plex, say you built eight
apartments in an apartment building, uh it would be asking a whole lot of of the developer to include some space in that building and be and get into the commercial landlord game if they just want to build eight units of housing. Most folks who do that have no interest
in trying to find a cafe to come into the building or trying to find a retailer and then getting into this whole other line of of landlording. Uh, so I think in once you get to the size of maybe 40 or 50 units, again, just answering from an anecdotal or common
sense perspective, you'll see ground floor retail in in buildings with 40 or 50 units, but something less than that, 16, 20, that's just so atypical. So, I think that whatever size of a site you would need to get to get 40 units, and
maybe that's an acre and a half or two acres or something like that, uh, then I think you can start to to discuss the idea of having that ground floor retail. Uh, as long as you embrace the fact that that's going to turn off such certain types of developers because they just
don't want to do that. They don't want to take the risk, huge risk. You I mean, our office is in Watertown. Uh, and so and I live in Cambridge and you see buildings that go up here and the the the ground floor retail sits vacant for years with this decal on the window of
somebody lifting weights coming soon. So if if if they if they can't attract tenants in a in a builtup area like metro Boston, you can imagine the risk associated with trying to do that in in East Long Meadow, which is more smaller, lower density environment. So there's a
great risk that you ask a developer to take on when you require uh retail space. So I guess that that that was that's just I think a lot how a lot of people respond to that. >> That's very helpful. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Sure.
>> So I think our thought was the ground floor is retail. So you um you build a retail establishment but then you're able to offer let's say two apartments up above it. I I think that was the real thought process. Instead of, hey, we're
building housing and now we have to put in commercial. I I think we were looking at it just the opposite. We're building a business zone and we're also allowing Yep. >> you know, living upstairs. >> Oh, gotcha. Yep. I mean, that type of
project could would certainly be great if you could do anything in the zoning to incentivize it or encourage it. I think requiring it can be difficult but uh encouraging it or incentivizing it is probably a great idea you know because
that that achieves what you what you have in the center town now is segregated uses commercial over here residential over there to mix them up in any way would would certainly be a fantastic achievement um so I think there's different ways you can approach it
>> thank you >> any others I think from my perspective, I mean, knowing of course that it was based on the previous language, but I think it it helps show really kind of like the worst case scenario if you think that these
are bad ideas anyway. And I don't think anything would get more dense than what you're visualizing there. So, I think from my perspective, it it actually looks good. I think there's a lot to be desired out of that. And I think as he sort of pointed out in the presentation,
I think three of the biggest risks I see are a doing nothing, b you leave properties that people just physically can't develop because it doesn't meet our current zoning regulations if they wanted to do anything other than the
building that's currently there, which I think we probably could agree in some of the instances, not to any properties owners discredit or not exactly visually appealing and what people would want to see in their town center in the future. And then I think three, if we remember
back to that uh presentation we had from Jeff Spec, if you're not really growing as a community, you're dying. And if we don't do anything here, we're just stagnating and kind of prolonging budget increases. Not to pick on our neighboring
community, Long Meadow, but if we don't allow any of these kinds of things, I think the worst case scenario for the town is that you end up building single family home subdivisions on the very few amount of parcels we have left in town. You're going to probably in the next 20
years be completely built out and then what? Your tax rate goes through the roof. We can't afford to do any new projects unless you max out the tax rate. that's not really a good option for the town. And then if we're so worried about the town being affordable, people that
have lived here, like my family, won't be able to continue to live here because prices are going to keep going through the roof and there's no new development to offset it. So to me, we need housing. >> Yeah. Sort of to echo what Connor said, I I liked seeing the visuals. like I'm a
visual person so it was kind of helpful to like just see how these things can be developed. Um and I also you know with Ralph with Maryland have that planning experience. So you know we went through the mixeduse development we created a
really great bylaw. Um but you know unfortunately the market doesn't really um kind of support a lot of how it ended up being written out. If we do go down this road, we have to do something that like the market maybe not tailored, we don't want to tail tailor it
specifically to developers, but something that's like the market is going to use because I don't want to go through all of this effort of developing some type of mixed use type activity in the center of town and then it's like never used like you know we have so many blighted properties like right now and I
kind of think that's like kind of crazy because we are such a desirable community like I think this is a really wonderful community but on top of the properties that like are here like Subway is also vacant now. So that they just recently closed. Um and I
also don't really like the idea of like us having like a 100 banks. I mean couple banks are great but like the idea of like every property in the center of town and eventually becomes a bank, I don't think that's necessarily feasible
um in the long run. Obviously, for the people that are living here already, I don't think housing is a particularly huge issue, unless maybe you're older and you're looking to maybe downsize. Um, but you know, it's a big issue in general. The state is currently
operating at, I think it was roughly estimated like we're 220,000 units below what we should have for a population our size. You know, we've had we had more housing production in the 70s than we have now. So it's not not really an East
Long Meadowentric problem, but it's a state problem that we are not really building housing to meet the population demand and then attract new population because obviously if you bring more supply into a community, you know, like Austin, Texas, completely different
community than ours. um a lot of supply has been added over the years particularly since co you know their rents or their properties you know have sort of the prices haven't gone up as steeply as some other places. Um, so I think there is a need in the sense of maybe not with people that are
specifically living here right now, but if we're looking to attract people because I think as Connor said, like I I really want us to be in a position where we kind of we're looking 10, 20 years, 30 years down the road and that we're kind of growing at a healthy pace
because if we do plateau, you know, we're going to have costs that are going to continue to go up. Um and you know fewer fewer people are having children as well. I mean that's a fact. You know fertility rates are down in every single state. Um this state you know lost the
fifth highest number of people out migrated from the state in 2025. Now that could be for a variety of reasons um other reasons unrelated to housing, other reasons unrelated to affordability. Um but you know it it is a need and this town the way we got here
was we went from an agriculturalbased town to a suburban town and you know during that 1950s 1960s the town's population doubled and you know what we're looking at here is if we do it I think in an effective sort of very
moderate type of way we would be adding some units um but not shocking the system obviously ly I think we do have to work out the kings because traffic isn't good right now but if we were also to go to full business um and and hopefully develop or all those blighted
properties that would also cause traffic issues as well because some you know some of these if they're smaller units um they may not attract as much traffic as like a you know we put a restaurant in or we put in you know a retail shop that may have more trips during the
course of the day. Um I do understand though that I think there's I think there is hesitation amongst us. Um so if it's ultimately just business I think that's fine but I do think there is a need. Um and it should be something that
is developed so that actually the market can utilize it. Um so yeah that's my thoughts. >> Thank you. I think that reminded me of two other things. Um, both in what you just said, but also in the presentation that even when we look at not not just
in terms of like setbacks and stuff, but even what our zoning allows today in those different districts, there's a lot of things that sure, we have them now, but we're never really going to get more of it. Like, nobody's building commercial office space anymore. We still have plenty of vacant commercial
office space in town. No one's going to put new stuff in any of these spaces, at least not in the foreseeable future. So, unless we come up with like other commercial or business options that were willing to let in those areas, they're probably just going to sit empty and
that's not a good option either. And then even when it comes to traffic, like in some ways maybe we have some more traffic from different uses, but I think sometimes we also just have a bad memory of what traffic used to be like even 20 years ago. I mean, we have some commercial spaces that aren't fully
maxed out and don't have the full workforce that they used to manufacturing wise decades ago. And traffic was a lot worse when everybody, you know, was let out at the same time. It doesn't exactly happen quite as strongly anymore. So, not to say that we don't still have
issues definitely, but it's not as if it has significantly gotten worse compared to what things used to be 20 or 30 years ago. And there's also remote work which you know has taken a lot of trips down maybe during the day for a lot of folks again.
>> But if you look at traffic when I was growing up a family had one vehicle. They didn't have six vehicles sitting in their yard. Um you know a twocar driveway was one car too many. Um
again times change, things are changing. Um it's a matter of us finding ways to adjust and trying to look out 20 years to see what's coming. And um it's difficult like we said we spent over a year >> difficult >> doing a mixeduse uh village district
bylaw which was going great and then COVID hit costs went up and the developer said well this was a hund00 million project that just jumped over 200 million. It's not worth trying to put it in at 200 million. Um, and again,
it was one of those where, um, even at that time, you still had residents that were against it. Uh, they thought it was going to be too much traffic. Um, then you throw a warehouse back to them, um, to change it, and now they really like
the mixed use. So, um, sentiment's going to adjust and change and and move as it goes along. and we can create the best zoning in the world, but if a developer doesn't come in and buy that, you know, $2 million lot and
tear it down and put up a new building, guess what? It meant absolutely nothing what we just uh went through. Um it it's going to be tough and it's going to be a slow process and it's going to take a long time.
>> I think baby steps is the way to go with the traffic issue. You know, traffic M >> I think it's brought up as a way to talk about the lack of people wanting to change. >> And traffic is not necessarily a bad thing. It's inconvenient, but it's not
necessarily a bad thing. Um when I hear traffic, especially when it comes to the center, um I think more pedestrian traffic. I think the center creates a divide in the town and doesn't allow for connectivity. Um, I think if you if
we're really going to get serious about the B, you know, center district bylaw, we do got to get serious about doing something about the pedestrian access around the center. Um, not so much the traffic flow, excuse me, a traffic count, but the flow of traffic and
making it more walkable and more pedestrian friendly. I mean, just as a parent, I would be knowing my child is trying to cross a Rotary, I would have a heart attack. um especially around 5:00. >> Yeah. >> You know, I I I I think it's, you know,
keeping what the traffic issue actually is or what we're actually talking about is is important. Is it are we concerned about the actual amount of cars at at 5:00 and then on Sunday there is no traffic issue? or we just concerned about walkability, pedestrian safety,
making it more manageable so if you're over at a coffee shop and you want to cross the street to, you know, to your to your house, you feel safe doing so. That I think is important to keep the perspective on. So that's my thought on it. So, if I could perfectly segue into
our next grant that is coming is just that the sort of uh >> what all that traffic looks like in wayfinding and what's what's actually happening with traffic and pedestrian traffic in our town. it. Again, my joke
was always the first person that stood up at every planning board meeting just walked up to the mic and introduced themsel and just said traffic and then sat down and everybody was like, "Yeah, there it has to mean something, right? There has to be some empirical data that
we can act on and that's that's next." So you'll have to sit through another presentation at some point in the next few months to to sort of quantify that and try to figure out what we're doing and what we can do better uh not just
the center but in particular but also the surrounding areas because that that sort of hub and that disconnectivity sends everybody other places, right? And so that all that traffic goes somewhere and so we we just got to figure out how
to manage it. >> Any other >> I just had a quick comment. I guess my biggest concern, I know somebody might have said doing nothing would be worse than probably the worst option, but I
also think if we came up with a center district that allowed this housing, I think my concern is there seven properties in here. >> Six. >> Six. Like everybody comes in and does
the same thing on all six. and there's nothing in there to provide that by law, >> right? So, I think that's my concern like I don't want this now to be the new bank, you know, housing everywhere. Banks and
housing everywhere. So, I think that's just my and I don't know if we should if I know you >> Luke, are you still on the >> I know I feel like and uh and I thought I was going to be the last comment, but it sounds like Ralph has something to say as well. So, I don't know. I feel
bad for Luke. >> No, if you guys are all set, I could drop off. But it was great to uh present to you and hear your thoughts. I think it's a an really important conversation and a difficult one and I know you know we work in towns all over the place and just the diversity of perspectives means
that conversation takes a long time. But um happy to contribute to the dialogue and um certainly happy to come back if it's ever helpful to continue the conversation. >> Thank you. We appreciate the effort, Luke. Thank you. >> Thank you, Luke.
>> Yes. Thanks for having me. Thanks. >> Or Luke. >> Yeah. >> Well, he went so small. I know. My comment was um they took six parcels as an example. I know that >> actually
154 something just in that uh district that we um had self-created which I mean obviously it's not been voted on yet but >> right >> um but to your point yeah if all of a sudden everyone's like oh hey let's do
it like this >> and there's nothing >> I don't expect that right >> usually it would take a while but historically has worked in other comm like if other communities have probably on this. >> It's interesting. >> But at what point if something like that
happens? >> Oh, no. I was saying I I was saying it's it was interesting just to see kind of all like the renditions of things like it even seemed like some of these things like would be just hard from like like that corner thing where the golden years is. And I'm thinking like there's so much elevation there. I'm like I don't
know if that could be developed at all. Maybe that's just like I don't know completely vac >> open space maybe because like because there's also that gradient and everything whereas like Steve Graham's property Harland like that could be maybe an interesting option
>> um you know Stacy's clearance that's kind of on a weird parcel um because it's just so tiny and you know maybe that's an extension of just single almost maybe single family homes because you know you have all those going there already so does raise an interesting
point though that while the boundaries so far in the previous renditions were pretty wide in terms of the number of parcels it includes it doesn't mean that we have to do that out of the gate if there's something smaller that we could find that would be more apt for the
council to come up with something we could do that first >> or even maybe in a specific area so not not even talking about the Romeo's area or Golden Gear's area but Maybe one specific section.
>> Yeah. Like maybe parts of Maple and Shaker or something. >> As long as we sort of continue the conversation, some sort of goal, right? >> And not just >> this is a bad idea, so let's not talk about it anymore. Like anything, any
suggestion in terms of >> like I I know I always go back to like puffies. I just drove by it. That's why I'm saying it. But like that sort of small like pocket little thing. That's five units and then a brewery and >> right and again they had some sort of flagship businesses sort of already
there >> to to make that happen and I don't know I don't know what that cost I don't know if that was feasible I don't know that that you know >> it may not be now >> property ownership always becomes a thing right if you don't have to spend the 3 million to buy the parcel
>> now you now you can maybe do a little bit more investment or a little bit less um again we We we got to we just have to find whatever spot that is and it doesn't have to be the whole district. We can have a district in the district
around the center that we decide what goes there. I think remember we saw the the land that was re was created by the that other layout of the rotary >> that we decide what goes there and we sort of have parameters for the that and
the rest of the zone is our standard density and whatever else heights and whatever else we want to put on. But you you can have we can do whatever we want. It's our zoning, right? It just has to be >> No, you can't.
>> Why? because the state has a say in it. I mean, you can't take one parcel and say, "Hey, we're gonna change this." It's called spot zoning. We're not gonna spot zone. >> You just have to be careful, like I said. I mean, so so to say we can do whatever we want. It's >> forgive me. >> Within limits.
>> Within limits. Exactly. Um, but I do >> we don't spot zone anymore >> or any less. >> Any less. >> Um, >> no. That wasn't my point to say we can do whatever we want. I'm just saying >> exactly >> it doesn't have to be the whole bucket
that we created. It can be a different bucket. This could be bucket one and then bucket two. And >> but I agree with what you said Tom earlier about like I think taking the industrial zone away should be like priority number like even beyond this
other housing stuff like that because it just doesn't it doesn't make any sense really anymore in that area. How >> the potential for a very intrusive use on Maple Street is is kind of scary to me. Yeah. >> And again,
>> go ahead. Sorry. >> So, I'm just thinking going forward so that we don't get stagnant and we don't just say no, no, no. Um, take a good hard look at what was laid out as a center district. See if we like that. Um, see if we want to make adjustments.
Um, because that would be an area where you would create a center town district. and in that area then you could remove the industrial uses. Now by removing industrial uses it doesn't mean that if someone on Baldwin Street is doing an
industrial use that you automatically say hey you're closed down. That's not what it's saying. What it's saying is going forwards if the changes >> that this is what's now going to be allowed and not that. Um but the existing places are grandfathered.
we call it grandfather pre-existing. Um but again that may be a place to start and with the bylaw start with um instead of adding housing or whatever remove what we don't like you know remove the warehouses and the industrial uses and say hey we're going to turn this into
you know this for now and then as you go down the road in years you add to it you know the mixed uses you say you know maybe in the Carlin area hey we're going to we'd like to turn this into so many units but 55 and older, let's say. Um or
you know a different area and um but if you don't start somewhere, you you can't get to the end project just by jumping there. Um there will be so many people that don't like this that or the other thing. They won't vote for it. Even though 90% of it's good, the 10% that
they don't like is real bad. So just my thoughts. I think the only concerns >> I it makes sense. The only concern I have with that is if if we start trying to remove too many things without offering new things that someone could do with their property, you're kind of
leaving the existing property owners in a pretty bad spot that you're taking away the value that they've accured because they could have done these things and now you give them no other options other than we might do something 5 years from now. except the owners currently have the
industrial use and they're still going to have that they can sell the property. It's still >> but I mean people that have maybe some empty space that they have yet to do something with you're kind of taking away the ability of them to do >> things. How many >> I would normally worry except there's
not a heck of a lot of empty space there. Um, again, there's there's vacant buildings, let's say, like Carlin or whatever, but um, I mean, like I said, I go through it all the
time. I don't see a lot of, you know, just a open lot that, hey, you can build this or that. Um, but I do understand what you're saying. And it may be we sit down and look at our commercial and our businesses and say are there any others that we want to
add in there that we want to allow? Hence we got a question that >> so if if I'm just trying to figure out you know sort of like a a conversation direction in the office and that's
the requirements and the parameters of the mixeduse village district is that was that only because of where it was going to end up? >> Yes. >> Okay. Fair. That's why the size isn't all on that.
>> No, that's that's great. >> I mean, >> that >> granted, it could have gone in other locations like up at Elmrest, they had 100 acres or whatever. Uh, Fenway Golf. >> No, no, of course there were other parcels, but it wasn't meant to be scaled down. >> Zoning, but it wasn't really meant to be
scaled down. >> Okay. >> And I think our planning director at the time had said that it would be basically a different mixeduse bylaw. >> Oh, yeah. for the center. >> for the center. Correct. And we It was simply what Ralph had brought up, give
someone the opportunity to have a small scale, you know, second story on an existing building and put two units there or just But not what we're talking about. >> Yeah. No. And again, and I and again, I just don't know that that's going to be
feasible for somebody to do. like there's not enough return on investment to to you know stabilize your roof and add two apartments. You're you're not that return on investment is never going to happen. And so again, this is what I mean. If if
we're if we're not going to get to a a point and we're never going to get to a density point in this area of town, well then we have to sort of shift the narrative and have a different conversation and perhaps in a different area. Sure.
>> Um the our zoning that we've had over time has really served our town well. You know, >> maybe not for this particular use, but our zoning um encouraged certain uses and we were the town was open for
additional uses, residential uses going forward. Plan unit um development um adult residential development. We have lots of housing for the elderly and nursing homes. I mean, we have all kinds of housing in town, just not what this
particular program wants, you know? I mean, I'm >> Well, I mean, I I What program would that I mean >> I mean, this this this not program, but this this approach. I get it. I get it. I know what you're trying what we're
trying to do, but I also look at the purpose of zoning and and one of them ha has to do with um you know no overutilization of the parcel and also um undue concentration
of the population. Now, that's written in the very beginning of the purpose of our zoning bylaws and I don't think that's something that we should just not consider anymore. Um, it's there. It, you know, overutilization of um Jayla
Faith came forward with a with a plan to do a mixeduse >> a village where the depot is >> and that was clearly overutilization of the property and um you know it didn't work. It would I don't think it would have worked because where was he going
to put the parking underground? >> Oh, and I and I I'm I totally understand your point and you're right. The zoning has always worked for Eile, but that undo word has to change. >> Oh, I I'm not >> I am not has to
>> but it but as I said >> program as you say is an actuality of the population of the earth. >> Okay. >> You know what I mean? like >> the people need different things. It's we we we are a single family dwelling
>> community >> community, right? >> We are >> there is a population in town that is slowly needing something else because they can't afford that >> and that's what the program is to try to allow something else. >> I realize that. I understand.
>> And so we just have to figure out how much that can be. >> This is a real need. I'm not opposed to that as long as there's a balance in what we're offering. >> That's all I'm trying to get to. >> Offer the market at the top as well as at the bottom. >> Right. That that's all I'm trying to get to is some sort of balance where it's
effective and will be built. >> So, >> right. And I think whether it's in the center or anywhere in town, we have to allow something because even though we have some quite large buildings, they're all tailored to the elderly for lack of a
better >> Excuse me. >> Doesn't count anybody on up here. We're all young. So, I I just have always found that a little odd that we've only been as a town willing to allow dense building of housing when it's catered to
an older age demographic, but everybody else we've left out in the cold in town. You can only really have a single family home if you're less than 55 years of age. And I think that needs to change. >> Well, it can change. And I I'm not saying that it shouldn't change. And
what you said in the very when you first started with your sentence about it doesn't have to happen in the center, it can happen someplace else. Putting it all in the center is the problem that that we're struggling with because that's a confined area. And we're
hearing all of these wonderful comments about walkability and yet people still need cars. So we have to put them somewhere. and and the the um proposal that we looked at had adequate parking for the people that lived there. But I
looked at one of the units and I said, "What do they do with Christmas or Easter when all the family relatives come in?" >> You know, you have to allow for you can't be that restrictive in that kind of offering. You have you have to, you know, look at the outside of the box
stuff that people are going to need their cars. We're not going to give up cars because we're moving into an apartment in center of town because why walk to a mattress store? You know, who needs who needs a mattress? I mean, I'm just saying that who knows what's >> I just have a burrito. I got to lay
down. >> But see, the thing is we don't know what's we're going to be walking to, >> right? You know, >> the other thing too to consider is I think our zoning was built so well, but it was also built for an era when we had so much land like at that point in the
50s or 60s, which is was probably the advent of a lot of this growth. There was tremendous growth, I think, all across the United States. So, tons of units were being built. A lot of the prices were low, even adjusted for inflation. Now, what we're going to be faced with eventually is like what
Connor said, you know, we're not going to be able to build as many more single family homes anymore or at a point maybe it'll just kind of completely shut off. So, if we do want to retain the growth, we'll probably have to start slowly introducing other things into it
eventually. But again, >> being very strategic about it >> and that's like what every community is being suburb is being >> smiling about it. I feel like I'm Ralph tonight because I think this is the most I've shut up.
>> So, Connor, if I may your point, um I I think looking outside of the center of town for some possibilities is not a bad idea. Um >> I I've been doing a lot of uh research and looking in uh New Hampshire. Um I'm
going to call them mini homes. Um but it's a development of them to where it's a development for more um young people, single family, stuff like that. The houses are smaller. Um the developer was
given some incentives from the town and the parameters in order to build were a lot different. It wasn't, you know, a 10,000 square foot lot. It was um I think they built 16 of them on a 1 acre uh area. and you're like, "Oh my god,
how can you have 16 houses on one acre and then you actually look at it and it was pretty amazing." Um, you know, it came in into a circle. The houses were set up. Um, they were set up in a way so that you weren't staring into the neighbors and all. Um, I think a
development like that in certain areas or a few of them. Um, I mean years ago we had when um all the houses were built behind Heritage Park, that's what they were. They were a development type. I don't say World War II cuz I think they
were built in the 60s, but it was a housing boom that was needed. And so, I mean, all the houses were very similar, very similar size and everything, but they were built extremely fast, extremely efficient so that people could afford them. And I think that's an
option. I mean, that's something to think about. Um, I know like through CPC, we have the housing uh portion of it, which I recently found out that that was pretty much only for new housing and not to redevelop and all. Um, but that would
be something where it maybe we could use some of those funds as an incentive for someone to do something like this. >> That's great. Again, there there's a lot more ways to get what we want and it's just a matter of coming up with them and
and then where um >> what what you were talking about is that we we tried with cluster housing years back. >> Yep. >> Many years back >> and the town wasn't interested at all. >> Failed at town meeting.
>> But I think that was for the entire town to allow it. Well, just >> no. The bylaw to develop take a parcel, an acre parcel and do cluster housing and have, you know, one drive coming in and then like a, you know, a wheel and
people would just the houses would just branch off. They were smaller and more affordable and and I thought very attractive. That was one time people didn't agree with that. >> So, that's that's something to think about, too. Any
other thoughts? Okay. >> All right. >> I think we all have a lot of thought. >> Next under new business was accepting a Massachusetts general law for additional compensation for the town clerk serving as the clerk of the council. Tom, would
you mind providing some background for this? >> Yes. Uh this is um something we instituted a um couple years ago that um has um was it a couple
years ago? Um that has a mass general law sort of attached to it. Um we have a lot of similar laws that we've create or accepted for similar things. Um i.e. the
collector treasurer certification um the certified clerk one and the board of registars one all in this chapter that's J K and 108P so this is just um we started
I think it was two years ago uh providing additional compensation for the clerk being the clerk of the council this is sort of just to memorialize it and have it recognized um as pension able income for the employee as all the other ones are
already accepted. Ralph, >> well, I go ahead. I think we about this before, >> didn't we? Talk we we talked about this before and and we understood that um the charter specifically indicated that the
town clerk would be the clerk of the council. >> Yep. And then her the job description reflects that the town um that one of the duties of the town clerk is the um clerk of the council. >> Correct.
>> And you know as far as compensation I you know I think that's important. Absolutely. It's a lot of work taking care of us. >> Yeah. >> And but the the issue is why do we need this? the the charter directs what we're
supposed to do. You create whatever you want to give your your um town clerk as part of her salary. >> So, at some point in my first year, we gave Jeanie >> Yes. >> this stipen.
>> Yes. But not not it was more than that. >> What? >> No. >> What was the stipen? No, there was no stipen specifically for this because we've never adopted this. The stipen was given uh previous to you by Mary for
additional work that she saw that was above and beyond. >> So, it's always, at least as far as I've been on the council for seven years, it was always agreed that >> um this job was way more than a town clerk. Y >> and the salary should be compensatory to
that. Okay. I don't think $1,000 to be the clerk of this council is anywhere near enough. And that's why two years ago when I was leaving president, me and you had a talk and I said instead of doing this, give her a
raise in her pay. Um, and that was for Jeie. And um, >> that was always in the form of a stipen. And so I don't know if we had a miscommunication on that, but that's how it always was. Not to my knowledge because I mean it was >> it was substantial and
>> yeah and I understood that to be in her salary as compensation. >> So how does one hand I'm sorry >> go ahead. I'm sorry. If it's considered a stipen does it count toward um
>> a retirement benefit. >> So this is where this came up. The Hampton County Retirement Board did not recognize Genie stipened as oh >> pensionable income because we had not accepted the general law.
>> And so again, uh apparently we've had some sort of miscommunication, but we have all the paperwork in HR. This was always a stipen because we have all the PAFs for additional compensation. And so to
prevent this from happening to our employees in the future, I wanted to accept the law so that Hampton County would accept that additional compensation as pensionable income. >> So if we choose not to give a stipen and
you give that as a raise, wouldn't that be the same thing? >> Yeah, >> it was. It would be. And that's that was always my understanding because when we talked I said >> this position is very clear under the charter >> the position is clerk and clerk
>> and that don't give a typing you give pay increase. >> That's what I'm saying. >> And if we think that because otherwise like this um scenario that we just had where um we analyzed everyone's pay >> y >> you would have compared clerk to clerk.
>> Yep. which would have been a lot less and then you would have given $1,000 for being clerk of the council. >> Yeah, it's I mean >> it's more than that. >> It's definitely more than that and again it's always been a stipen. So
>> I'm I'm I'm looking for a solution >> based on what we've been doing. And so if I if at whatever reason when this first got instituted was not instituted correctly, it it's been a stipend >> certainly since I've been here.
>> Do you give someone a stipen for something that's written in their job description? >> When there's a mass general law that's attached to it, it's but we haven't accepted it. >> I know, but like J is is being a board of registar. There's additional
compensation. K is a certified clerk additional company in in 108P or whatever this is. We accepted all these in like 2015. I'm guessing at some point >> somebody said >> that's not pensionable if you don't accept the general law. So we did.
>> My understanding was this got instituted and we missed the general law >> because there's no reason for >> that. Well, I'm just telling you where we're at. No, I just >> I know you're saying no, but this is where we're at. So, Jeanie was given a stipen for a number of years that is not
pensionable income. And I guess that wasn't the intent, but that's how it was executed. >> So, did she they didn't straighten it out, so she lost that? >> Most likely. I mean, it was only >> still. >> No, it was more than $1,000.
>> It was Well, it was more than what what the range is. >> $500. It's not what I remember, but that's okay. I'm getting older. >> Just as a clarifying point, this would um basically just make this money pension, but it wouldn't actually
increase anything. >> It would increase compensation right now. >> Not based on the what we have in place, >> but restrict it. >> It's bill. It says, you know, not less than a thousand. >> The general law restricts it. Yes. >> Yes. So
>> and I wouldn't again this is for a function for you. >> I I didn't pick the number that it was. >> We understand that >> and I wouldn't change it certainly without your opinion. >> I have a question. >> Sure. >> Thanks. >> Um
sorry. Um when we hired the new clerk >> Jackie >> intent to give the stipen in addition to the salary. It was my thought that the the stipen was set for the clerk by the council in a separate payment as a
stipen. This is it. Yes. When Jeie retired halfway through the year, we prrated it and when Jackie's done with 6 months, I intended on giving the rest of the proration of that money. Well, >> that money was always spent for the salary or
>> stipened. Yep. >> Can't we just make it the salary? We can >> that would again my thought >> this wasn't my direction this was a clerk of the council thing so yeah I I don't care >> it's not a stipen when it's part of your salary a stipen is given a one lump sum
>> right >> and yeah it increases your pay and it taxes a little higher so it's probably better as the salaries >> all right >> you know instead of you know >> and if you actually look forwards >> and you do a 2 and a half% % cola. Well,
that's part of the salary. So, that 2 and 12% will be on that where if it's a stipen, that 2 and 12%, right? >> Okay. >> And do we have other employees that get a stipen each year? >> Well, there's there's st those three general laws that we accepted. Yeah. The
collector treasurer has one. >> I mean, it's a good idea to kind register >> with with that. Sorry, I don't mean to jump in. Um, most of those positions can be two people doing them. >> Correct. >> The clerk can have a collector and a
treasurer. >> You could >> or you can choose to have one person do both jobs. >> That's the way I always understood the stipen because like in John's situation, he works for the state. He's not allowed to accept this.
>> That law reads that you're certified in one or both of those. It doesn't it doesn't it's not a stipen for having both positions. That's not the way the law reads. >> I want to make sure that we can compensate this position. >> Yeah. You know, even $4,000 to be clerk
clerk of the council because I got to tell you being the clerk of this council is worth a lot more than $4,000. Um and I just I'd like her pay to >> All right. So >> to be that. >> So >> great, >> Anna. That that's certainly going to
beable. >> Finish my sentence before uh Ralph cut me off. >> Otherwise, I'd forget. >> I didn't realize I would have elbowed. >> It's okay. My um statement before was that if there are three three other people that are getting a sip for their
extra duties, should we switch should we look into switching it over to just be part of their salary? >> It's for certification. >> Oh, okay. So that's >> so so there's another this the middle one is for being a certified city clerk
>> and I don't think you can even take the test unless you're a clerk for three years or something. So that it's not for additional duty. It it's like a certification. >> Mhm. >> All right. >> Okay. >> All right. Well then then then >> so do you want us to make a motion to
>> No, me and Jackie can work it out. $8,000. Jack, >> no. I'm just >> No, no. We're adding that. I don't want that. >> In an effort to be consistent with all the other laws that we accepted for other stipens so that it would be
pensionable, I just figured, well, this is the way the other three are done. So, to be consistent, we'll just accept the other law. Bada bing, bada boom. If you don't want to do it that way, >> you need to speak. >> It's all going to be the same. >> Well, that helped Judy. I didn't want to cut you off.
>> I don't I don't know. Honestly, I don't know the answer to that. She She asked if we accept it, will that help Jeie? I don't think so. But >> No, probably not. >> I believe that. But >> I guess what was the answer for me was what the charter says. You know, the
charter makes the position of clerk of the council as part of the job, >> right? >> And and so I, you know, I feel like that's that's all said and done. And then you recognize within her salary um you know what what she should
deserve because of all of her hard work. >> Fair enough. >> Is up to 10,000 now. >> I got to redo the budget now. >> Yeah, that's Listen, I I'm trying I was trying to make that additional compensation pensionable. And if you'd
rather just do it that way, then done. >> Well, it's pensionable, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Well, it will. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. >> There's one of two ways. Either that way or accept the law. If you don't want to accept the law, then we'll do it that way.
>> The other no worries. When it comes to the difference between salary and stipens, when we see it on the mun reports, are those just all lumped into like one line item so we wouldn't see that there's differences or does that
get >> if it's paid as a stipen, it would be in that? We we we've been trying to eliminate them. There were stipens for a whole lot of things when I started. We're trying to just bake them into
whether it's a union contract or right >> or or salary or whatever. Uh if they exist now, it would be on that sheet because Stipen has a separate or org number. >> Either way accomplishes what I put this on the agenda for. So it's completely up
to you. So if I'm understanding, it sounds like the consensus then is to not offer it as a stipend, but increase the regular compensation. So therefore, in this upcoming year's >> budget, we would really see the numbers.
>> Well, they would just be >> the total budgets >> well will still be the same. It'll just be instead of a stipend, it's in there. >> Still in the salary. >> Yeah. >> portion. >> Congratulations. >> Thanks. 10,000. It is
>> 10,000. >> Take it easy. >> Play the house. >> 10% for the >> You got to kick some to Genie. >> Any other discussion? >> No. >> Okay. Thank you. Uh action items for our
next meeting. Uh depending on the timeline for posting, we'll have to work it out with Jackie. I don't know if we'll meet the publication deadline. I can't remember if we missed that or not. But whether it's the next meeting or the first one in April, we'll have the second reading of the right to farm bylaw that we had
the >> bylaw >> general bylaw committee uh at last night about. Um we'll also have public hearings for the CPC projects either again pending the publication deadline
for that. >> Yeah. Um, I love the budget presentation. We will maybe have some more on the oil tank if we need transfers now or if that waits till later in the year. >> Y
>> um otherwise that's all I have penciled in. We've covered a lot of that's all. >> I just one more. >> Sure. >> Um I know we've had this conversation before. Um, I got a call the other day. They're a lot of the sports youth sports
teams now are they've moved to nonprofit status. >> Um, I'm getting more and more calls from them because they're doing their own fundraising and they're trying, I think, to solicit businesses, the banners. >> Yeah. >> On fields and stuff. So, they're trying to It's no longer going through the recck department. So, they're more and
more soccer, um, basketball and football, and I'm missing one. They're all baseball. >> I think softball. They're all now in like a nonprofit status, so it's easier for them to raise money. So, they're all So, I've gotten a couple calls recently
about fundraising, be able to place banners in places. So, I don't know if it's something that we as a policy want to revisit. Um, it's a little cleaner. I think >> I like to revisit all the policies, >> but I am getting I have fielded a couple of those calls >> advertising banners.
>> Yeah. >> So, the way they do it now is they're like temporary. They're up there in the game and then they take them down. >> When we had that discussion, I'm sorry, Kathy, I think there's is a in the school side. I think there is a policy about
>> banners banners on the field. So, you probably should start there and decide if What's the most prudent way to go where >> next tackling >> because if there is a policy it would reflect the fact there was concern about
who gets to advertise there had you know and there's >> parameters too >> but if we you know >> if one of our gun shops in town wanted to put a a banner up that that was and that's there's parameters >> it really gets into >> really what it gets into
>> signed by signed by law the last time we talked about >> that's really what it gets two budget cycles ago, I believe, when >> um Sarah Trullio was still on the school committee, and that was one of her recommendations to the council when we were evaluating funding sources that
year was to look at the the banner >> stuff on fields. So, if these um I think it's baseball, soccer, you said are now separate 501c3s, that means the money is not going to the
town. That means it's not a town banner. It's a separate entity that would be looking to put advertising on town property. Currently, we don't even allow that with well limited with our own wreck department. and the money that's
generated goes to the recck department. In that situation, the money generated would be going to a separate 501c3 entity. Um, first, I'm not sure why
the different teams are now breaking away from Wreck. I thought the whole point was a few years back was to bring all of those uh oddball 501c3s into one house in the
>> take off. >> Um >> didn't take off. The sports like to be by themselves. >> There's different grants out there and there's a whole >> No, I do understand that. I just um but
each one now is making money for their own events and they can choose individually how the money spent, where it's spent uh without any town oversight. And I think that was part of the issue. Um especially if you start allowing them
to advertise on town property. >> Well, I know like one of them per se is trying to raise money to rese it so there's some benefit to the to the town. So that's what they're looking to do. But if you're going out there raising that type of capital, >> they're they're trying to sell something.
>> That's that's what the conversation is. >> Yeah. >> But we can definitely >> visit. >> Yeah. We can have we I I have a lot of conversations with a lot of wreck uh parents, coaches. Uh we we we we're trying to find ways to
help, but again, we run into some legal problems. we run into policy problems which we can talk about but there's some legalities in terms of uh you know it's still town property so what happens on town property is sort of governed in a
certain way um under the law and so it kind of ties the town's hands in terms of sure you can operate as a um 501c3 and have an agreement with the town and pay your portion but run your own league
which we're doing with baseball and softball. Um, but it's still town property and whatever happens on town property should happen a certain way, which I've had our our attorney would say I've had way too many conversations
with him about this, but trying to trying to sort of facilitate some of this, but it's it's it's it's pretty difficult. I know it's not easy, but I'm just saying >> it's happening more and more. It's bubbling up a lot. >> If we want to reit I'm just throwing it out there.
>> No, I I >> It's like there's a there's big interest in like the Birchland 111 field. It's >> it's less than desirable condition and there's a big push to get redo it and we can bring money into >> that's not town money to redo it and we can put some banner up.
>> Yeah. Yep. >> And again, like Kathy alluded to, that's a school use form. >> Yeah. So, I probably wouldn't even see that, >> but look at me like that. >> It would be >> it should. Uh yes, >> I don't know that I would object to the
5013C, but if Banner is going to reside on town property, then there are parameters that should be naturally in place for a
municipality in school um fields and that would um prohibit any um banner um promoting alcohol tobacco products. weapons. So, I mean, with all respect to
the gun store owners, they couldn't advertise. >> And not to quote my attorney again, >> but anytime you say you can't do that, but you can, we're opening up some serious liability.
>> Yeah. I don't want to >> And this is where this is where the yes to everyone or no to everyone comes in. And I always say no. I know I'm a fddy duddy, but my answer is always no. But nobody can say you're treating me differently. Everyone's a no. >> Well, with the the
>> um organizers of the baseball whatever groups have the 501 3C. >> Yeah. Um, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume they would not be
going after a business that would um advertise tobacco or alcohol or firearms? >> It's a reasonable assumption, Kath. I mean, yeah. Again, the the parts of this argument I've always sort of come back to. You
have a temporary sign, i.e. it's just up while you're playing on the field. That doesn't violate the sign bylaw. >> But like when we went through the site plan with the high school, >> we didn't let them have an LED sign because it's not allowed. >> Yeah. >> Just cuz it's the town of Esau Meadow
doesn't mean we allow. So if you're putting up a sign that's going to be that's going to stay there, that's erecting a sign and that that is just expressly not allowed. >> I don't want to keep this conversation going. That's an action item section.
It's just action item. Sorry, but yes. No, this is something that Jim's right. People bring this up. >> It's very quick and it's to Tom. So if these entities are separate now from the rec department, >> are they renting our fields? >> They have a agreement in which they
provide monetary every year to the >> And the only reason I was >> Well, that's just coming from our pockets. Well, I knew Ty used to and I knew um there was some other question. >> Okay. >> Yep. It's a net. It's a
>> This wasn't on the agenda. This was just a >> I'll just say, "Hey, can we take a look at it in the future?" >> Yes. >> And that's actually allowed. I think there's a uh >> Okay. Any other action items? Any motion to adjurnn? >> I make a motion to adjurnn. >> Second. >> Motion was made and seconded. Any
further discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor, please say I. >> I. I >> opposed.