[music] [music] Welcome to an episode of East Long Meadows. Who wants to be a planning expert? Today's contestants are Rob Watillaa, AICP, East Long Meadow's very own planning director, and coming [music] to us from
out east, we have Judy Barrett, principal of Barrett Planning, and we're going to ask a series of questions. [music] The two contestants are going to compete for a very special prize at the end of our episode. We'll
start out with question number one. What is zoning primarily used for in [music] Massachusetts cities and towns? Is it A setting property rates? B deciding how land can be used and developed, C determining school district boundaries,
or D regulating [music] utility companies. Judy Barrett, deciding how land can be used and developed. Great. That is correct. Do you want to say anything more about that? Just it's important for people to understand that zoning has an impact on some of these other considerations, the property tax rate
certainly. Um, and sometimes it will affect depending on how you zone your town where school district boundaries are drawn because when you have a lot of homes next to a school, it might affect how you draw the boundaries. But zoning itself is about how land is used and how
it can be developed and the procedures for doing so. >> So hang on. So how do people know what zone they're in? So, your town hall would have a zoning map >> um that shows uh where all of the zoning district boundaries are >> and people would be able to look at that
map and identify where their home or their business property is >> and look at the zoning district boundaries and say, "I'm in that district." >> And then there's a use chart that goes along with the map, what types of uses are allowed. >> That is correct. >> I should probably figure out what zone I live in.
>> I don't know. Don't think I'm gonna win this one, guys. She's really good at this. >> All right, one point for Judy Barrett. Question number two is, which level of government usually adopts zoning bylaws in Massachusetts? Is it A the federal
government, B the state legislature, C individual city and towns, and or D county governments? Robella, >> I'm gonna go on a whim here and say individual cities and towns.
>> Correct. >> However, >> oh, >> it's more complicated than that because the leg yes or no, sorry, go ahead. >> The legislature reserves authority to claim some land uses as having a
statewide interest. um in which case cities and towns cannot zone out those uses >> such as farms or churches or schools um child care centers. >> So whether you're regardless of what your zoning says, those uses are
protected because the state has determined um that it has a particular interest in protecting those >> listed exclusively under the do act or are there other areas that you would find those exceptions? So, it's in the zoning act, which is chapter 48. Uh,
section three is where all of the protected uses are. Um, they are not all do amendment uses, but that's typically what we call them. >> So, you're telling me that I'm allowed to have chickens on my 10acre farm in the hilltowns without the town telling
me what to do. >> That is correct. >> Like that. But if it's on an acre and a half, the board of health andor the zoning bylaw might have a say in what how many chickens you can have. >> Another reason to look at the zoning map so I know how big my property is.
>> Exactly. And the read the zoning bylaw >> and that's going to change from town to town to city to city because it is the jurisdiction of as you said Rob individual city and towns, >> right? >> Nice. >> Um one point for Rob.
All right. Neck and neck. We're going on to question number three. Which of the following is an example of a zoning regulation? Is it A, how often [music] trash is collected? B, where bike lanes are placed, C, how tall a building can be on a lot, or [music] D, how much rent
a landlord can charge, how tall a building can be on a lot is a matter if it would be appropriate for zoning to regulate. >> Correct. Any other thoughts there? So, if I had a house and it was 100 feet tall, the town could tell me to make
that shorter. >> Well, if the if the house that's 100t tall, which I've never seen, by the way, but if you had that, >> my house is the unique exception. >> And if it were conforming to some set of rules in the past, >> yes, >> you would be considered um a legally non-conforming.
>> Well, the contractor told me this was allowed per the zoning regulations. So, I listened to him. So, you're telling me that I'm out of compliance? I'm breaking the law. >> So, I'm not going to interpret your zoning bylaw for you in the middle of a discussion like this. >> I will simply say to you that if your
100 foot tall home complied with zoning at one point in time, it likely enjoys a protection as a pre-existing non-conforming use. >> Okay. >> If it never conformed, you probably have a problem. >> Well, I know it still has a pitch roof, so it's probably a wind hazard at that point from that height. So, good to
know. I have to get my money back somehow. Sorry. Please continue. You know, the some of the other answers here are important because people do wonder, well, who has the authority to decide like when is trash collected or Yeah. >> Um or where bike lanes are placed and you know, the trash collection is handled by the towns. It's a curb
collection system. So, >> the municipality determines when trash is going to be picked up on your street. >> Um bike lanes are going to be placed in a street based on planning that's probably led by the public works department. And ideally, those decisions
are made based on where you want to zone for population growth or zone for business access. So, >> everybody's got a role to play in what how a community develops over time, but zoning has a unique role and the example of a building height is is one of those
functions. All right, two points for Judy Barrett. Moving on to question number four. In Massachusetts, zoning [music] regulations are typically enforced by which local authority? A, the town manager, B, building [music] commissioner, C, town council, or D, the
president of the town council. Oh, I think that was Judy. Well, the answer is the building commissioner. It can get a little bit uh interesting though if the building commissioner position is vacant, in which case you then have to look ideally your zoning
bylaw says who steps in, but it would typically be the appointing authority for the building commissioner or the select board year or council system here. So, it's a little different, but the building commissioner is the one with enforcement authority all the time. It's a question of who wears that hat
>> if you don't have a building commissioner in that job at a particular point in time. That makes a lot of sense because the building commissioner is the person who sent me the letter about the 100 foot house. >> That would make sense. >> So now I have to be in compliance with this >> I know >> ordinance or whatever bylaw. Okay, makes sense. I knew the answer to this question. That's why. >> But you know that you can appeal that
decision >> to who? >> Um you can appeal the a decision of the building uh commissioner or the zoning enforcement officer to the zoning board of appeals. >> Oh, that's good to know. >> Yes. >> I have my options open now. And the
building commissioner derives their authority from the state government >> and the zoning bylaw. Both. >> Great. Okay, we're up to 3 to one in favor of Judy Barrett. Question number five. What does quote by right mean in
Massachusetts zoning? A. A project that automatically gets funding. B. A development allowed without special [music] permits or variances and cannot be legally denied. C. a use reserved only for homeowners or D a project
approved by the town manager. >> Rob Watillaa, >> option B, >> a development allowed without special permits or variances and cannot be legally denied. That is correct. >> From what I've learned today, by right and the Dover amendment go together. So, if something is allowed by right, that
means the town can't tell me what to do within reason. Of course, unless it's for zoning reasons, then obviously the zoning impact does not really matter in the situation. Judy, looked like you want to say something. Am I saying this correctly? >> You're doing just fine. I would simply
point out that even for so-called Dover amendment uses. Uh there's nothing that precludes a town from doing a a site plan review. Uh bearing in mind the limitations under which you can regulate those types of uses. But you certainly can look at a site plan and at least be
able to determine whether the parking is appropriately located, whether access works and so forth. What you can't do is deny the use. >> Um but uh it is without special permits or variances is certainly correct. Um there's a real unanswered question about
whether a an as of right use so-called can simply not be denied. Um, you know, there there's limited case law on this. Uh, a use that is permitted is typically considered one that is allowed as of right, >> but it may be subject to site plan
review. Um, and if it is, what is a board to do when the project before them uh, for example, doesn't really conform to zoning? Mhm. >> I mean, those are kind of bases where a site plan decision could uh air on the side of the town and against the
applicant, but you would never penalize the applicant from being able to come back with a corrected plan. >> So, if I had a solar development, right, >> the town can't really say no to me because it's protected by this as of by
uh theory that you're talking about. You're allowed to have reasonable regulations and a review process for solar, >> but they just can't tell me no. I can't do it there because we don't like it. >> I would be very careful about saying no to a solar or a battery storage system. >> Spoken like a true attorney, even though
you're not an attorney. >> I'm not an attorney. >> Love that answer. >> All right, so we have uh three to two [music] in favor of Judy Barrett. We are up to question number six. Which of the following projects [music] are currently allowed by right on the properties
located along the rail trail presently zoned [music] industrial? Is it A large self- storage units, B large warehouse facilities, C a bank, or D all of the above? So, it's all of the above in your
town because of what your zoning says. The answer might be different in another town. Um, but in your community in East Long Meadow, all of those uses are currently permitted >> in the industrial zone, which is along the rail trail. >> I've been wondering because we've been seeing a lot of banks around here
recently, and I've wondered like, why are there so many banks here? Like, who's letting this happen? And it's good to know this is the reason why that's happening. >> Yes. >> So, thank you for educating me and the residents of East Law Meadow on this matter today. So, that's good good to know that. >> And I would just go one step further to
say it's a use that's allowed by right. Um, and it's the banks and their corporate headquarters that are doing the running the numbers and making financial decisions about where to locate their banks. >> Okay, I see. >> It's good to know. >> All right, really pulling ahead uh four
to two, Judy Barrett. Question number seven, which is a quote dimensional variance under Massachusetts zoning law? Is it A permission to ignore building codes, B approval to change property [music] tax assessments, C relief from strict zoning requirements
[music] on lots and structures due to unique property conditions? Or D, a temporary [music] construction permit to modify the size and shape of the building. Rob Watilla, >> I'm going with C because it was the longest answer and because [laughter] it sounds like it's the most correct. Am I correct?
>> It is correct. >> Okay, awesome. Judy, can you explain why it's a correct answer? I the tool guest here. >> So the zoning act provides for variances um dimensional variances and use variances and they are different >> uh dimensional variance um such as the
one that's alluded to in this question >> around the perhaps the shape of a lot or whether it has adequate frontage or something like that. Those are variances um that any applicant really is entitled to go to the board of appeals and seek. Doesn't mean the board is going to grant it. Um, but then there are use variances
which are only permitted if they are allowed under your actual zoning bylaw. So they are provided for by state law, but you don't have to grant them. But if they're in your zoning bylaw, then an applicant does have a right to come to the board of appeals and request uh a
use variances, which means unlike a lot or or structure issue, it might be proposing a use that's not allowed in the district, >> but could be allowed by a variance. So to my understanding, last time I looked through the zoning regulations. >> Yes.
>> Is it true that we do not permit use variances in this town? >> As I recall, you do not permit abuse varian >> own the dimensionally stuff. Yes. Correct. >> Right. which is very important >> because your town recently prepared a master plan >> and I think you would probably not want
to encourage uh or open the door for uses to be proposed that would be in conflict with your master plan or your zoning >> because I'd be right next door to a factory or something or car mechanic in my densely populated residential neighborhood. Right.
>> That certainly could happen with >> definitely don't want that. >> Um yeah, >> right. in the master plan is really planning for the future and uh starting to talk about ways that we can reshape where we're doing things and do things more effectively and efficiently to promote either business development or
residential development or even preserve green and open spaces. All right, so we have four to three. Uh moving on to question number eight. Which zoning goal is most directly related to protecting public health
[music] and safety? A separating heavy industry from homes. B maximizing developer profit. C increasing parking revenues or D limiting home ownership. Judy Barrett separating heavy industry from homes. [bell] And I will just share
with you um because it's a delightful story that the authority to do that to separate industry from homes stems from a decision that is a hundred years old this year >> involving the village of Uklid in Ohio. uh and at the end of this month there is
a dayong gathering of zoning geeks in Arlington, Virginia to look at Uklid at 100. So but that concept of there are uses that would be offensive to other uses and so the ability to separate them into what we call use districts,
>> that's what that's about. So the assumption is that industry would be disadvantageous to homes. That's not always true, but it is an assumption that prevails in much of zoning today. >> Ukidian zoning. >> So, you're saying that oil refinery next
to a subdivision of a 100 homes within throwing distance of a rock that I found on the ground is not allowed. That's a big >> That would probably not be a great thing to allow. >> Okay, that's Yeah, that's a good point. Um, and 100 years old. Wow. >> Yep. >> 1926.
>> Yep. It was >> Supreme Court case, right? >> That's correct. >> Wow. Well, thank you. >> There you go. >> So, Uklitian zoning is working to separate out the uses. >> Yep. >> And we hear more and more about mixeduse districts. Yes.
>> So, is that in conflict with Uklitian zoning? >> Uklitian zoning does not did not contemplate mixed use >> and yet so much of the organic development that existed at the time was mixed use. It's Uklitian zoning kind of
took things really too far. Uh I'm not going to make an argument that a smoke stack next to a 100 homes is a great, >> you know, way to zone, >> but certainly in our downtown areas, our neighborhood commercial districts, we always had businesses and residences of
various types. Um, and I don't think that concept really was was embraced or even thought about with Uklid because Uklid was very much devoted to separating uses that were pretty much >> I think anybody understood were sort of obnoxious and and so forth. So now we're
having this other conversation today about well how do you sort of pull the reinss back from >> Uklid and think about ways in which mixeduse development actually could be better for our communities. >> So no more separation but kind of find ways for healthy integration. >> Yeah.
>> Healthy integration is a great way to put it. >> That's right. >> Wow. >> Well said. For >> somebody didn't know the answer. I came up with a pretty good point there. >> You did. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> That's because you're a good planner. >> Oh, thank you. >> All right. Five to three. Judy still in
the lead. Question number nine. What is chapter 4A of Massachusetts general laws best known for? A. Environmental protection rules. B. Historic preservation standards. C. Tenant protections. Or D. The zoning act.
Chapter 4A. I'm going to have to go with the zodiac here because I did a quiz in high school on this exact question and I know I got it right and I remembered that question and answer but my guts also tell me that it was brought up a few times during this so I think that's why I remembered the answer to this question. >> It's all right. I'm happy to help my
colleagues. But is it true that this answer or sorry the zoning act did it come up around the same time that whole Uklid v Amler Supreme Court thing 1920s later >> later than that >> and actually it was the zoning enabling act until 1975
>> because Massachusetts in 1966 adopted the home rule procedures act and >> pretty much ensconced in law this concept that municipalities can do anything that the state does has not reserved for itself. So when [clears throat] so when does the zoning
act come to play? In the 1970s >> 1975 the zoning enabling act was updated significantly >> in response to home rule. >> So today um our home our zoning act is procedural.
>> Yeah. and and there are there's a lot of provisions in it that talk about things you can't do such as what we were discussing with the do act, you know, the do amendment that you can't borrow a church or a school, you know, >> um so the sort of the things you can't do which are reserved for state interest
are in section three of 4A. Um their procedures are in section five and 11. And then um there's another section that sort of encourages communities to think about things like cluster development or open space residential development or um
you know incentives for uh density to encourage lower moderate income housing. Those kinds of things are in there as incentives but frankly communities don't even need that authority in the zoning act because they could do it by home rule. >> Yeah. So, you're telling me that the zoning regulations that Esau met are severely different from those of
Springfield, Boston, Worcester, every place is different, right? >> Every place is different. Okay. Um recognizing that there are certain things that you all have in common, >> like the inability to deny a religious use. >> I see. >> Or a public or nonprofit school or a
farm on five or more acres, things like that. >> That's going to be true in East Long Meadow as much as it's true in Worcester. explains why I couldn't open a farm in um South Hadley because the rules there just are not the same as they are here in East Law Meadow. So
that's good to know for next time. >> Next time. >> Yes. >> All right. So we are at five to four. Um it could end up in a tie with this last question or we might have a definitive winner. Question number 10. Why does zoning matter to people who don't own
property? A. It only affects developers. B. It determines who can vote locally. C, it influences [music] housing costs, neighborhood character, and access to services. Or D, it controls mortgage interest rates.
>> C. C is correct. It influences housing costs, neighborhood character, and access to services. >> It affects all of that. And yes, it matters to developers. It matters to individual homeowners. Um, it it does it
has no impact on who can vote. But I think anybody with an interest in real estate is going to be affected in one way or another by what your zoning says. So zoning is a really powerful thing and it can do great things for your cities and towns. Um or it can be uh very
discouraging. uh it can it has a an undeniable impact on uh on things like how much new growth happens that you can then roll into your tax base and be able to sort of manage the growth of um the tax levy and and so forth. So there's a
lot of things that zoning has a direct and indirect impact on but certainly the impact on housing costs and neighborhood character. Those are all matters that are rightfully the province of zoning and they can be very effective and helpful and positive or they can be not
so helpful. >> So you're saying that the whole not [clears throat] my backyard movement thing. Um I I have neighbors with lawn science that say that word. I think it's like nimi. >> Nimi. >> Nimi. Oh, I thought it said nimbus like the cloud but nimi. Um so that has
something to do with this right like property values going down. So people don't want like these big buildings next to their homes because they might they're worried that they're not going to get as much money later on from when they initially bought it. >> There is there is sometimes a concern that people have that a a new
development will affect their property value >> or even if the might have a beneficial property impact value impact >> um that it will bring additional traffic or generate additional children for the schools or have some >> change.
>> Yeah. So often the things that we think of as nimi are actually about just the public's anxiety about change >> and the inability to sort of control what change happens in your backyard. Um >> and yet >> when the homeowner needs to go to a
board of appeals for a special permit to do something very simple on their lot because their lot doesn't conform, >> the tables are turned. It's like why do I have to go through all this? It's hard. >> Yeah, >> it's hard. And I believe that uh the state recognizes that neighbors do have
an interest in what's cited uh near to them and for that reason there is a requirement of notification to abutters for special permits and variances. Yes. Whether notification is required for site plan review is up to the local bylaw ordinance. Um although I think if
a bill pending and the legislature does make it, uh I think you're going to see notification is just a standard feature of site plan review. But a building permit, no. I mean, if there's a lot next door to you and a single family home is allowed on it as of right, that
property owner can go to the building inspector or building commissioner and obtain a building permit. Um, provided the lot meets all the other requirements of the town. And the neighbors don't get a notification of that. That's just the way the law works. >> Well, it's because also it's
pre-ordained by right use. >> Right. That's correct. Yeah. It's your zoning policy that you've adopted for your town. >> Makes sense because I got a notification in the mail for that site plan review thingy that you were talking about a neighbor putting in 50 chicken coops by
Wright. He has 10 acres, but the buildings have to be regulated by the planning board because of their size. So, I think that might be a lawsuit in itself already because I'm already confused from a lot of >> This is already feeling like a little bit like a lawsuit waiting. >> There you go. But I'm not going to say the town. You're you're keep that in the
back of your mind. You can guess whenever after the show if you want, but uh that's good to know. You be very informative today. Thank you. And I What was the final score? I don't know what that is. >> Final score is 624. Okay. >> In favor of Judy Barrett. >> And we have a special East Long Meadow
prize for you. Our Spartan skull. >> This is cool. >> So when I do meetings in the future on [music] Zoom, [laughter] I'll have a friend There you go. >> To protect me. >> Thank you so much for joining us today.
Judy Barrett from Barrett Planning and uh director of planning. >> Who I just have to put my plug in has been absolutely magnificent to work with. You [music] are Thank you. >> No, I'm just very serious about it. Your town is I hope people know wellrun and
well staffed and smart people here. It's been a joy to work [music] with this community. So, thank you. >> Thank you for working with us. >> Happy to be here. >> We're happy to have you. and I'm Rebecca Lesey, [music] deputy town manager, concluding this year's version of East
Long Meadow: Who Wants to Be a Zoning Expert. Thanks for joining us. [applause] Thank you guys for watching that game show we just did. Uh, totally not a ripoff of Who Wants Millionaire or anything, not copyrighted. Um, so, you know, we have a very important
initiative that we're doing. you know, since we're now zoning experts um just from that game show alone, uh she has a nice helmet to prove it. We're actually doing a survey uh that's very important for our town. Uh many of which actually involves the questions that you were just asked um a little bit more specific
to, you know, yourself and your business or your property or somebody you might know owns a business in town. Uh we're just trying to understand, you know, residents in terms of how they feel about the town zoning regulations. So, this video kind of helped make people more aware of what zoning is, you know,
why it matters to you and why your response to our survey are really going to help us. So, Judy, you want to talk a little bit about the survey because you're the one that created it. >> Sure. No, happy to. Um, so the survey is part of a an extended community engagement or community consultation process that's been built into this
project we've been working on with Rob um and the and other town officials for the last several months. uh really kind of pulling the zoning bylaw apart. Uh trying to identify issues in it and some of the issues we identified are very technical and some are based on
consultation with community members, >> board members, city, town staff and so forth. And so the the survey is an opportunity for residents to tell us based on where they live and what they see around their own kind of neighborhood what things they really appreciate about where they are, things
that they're concerned about, perhaps changes they'd like to see and changes they would not like to see. So, the nice thing about the survey is you don't have to be an expert on East Long Meadows zoning, but you do have to be an expert, which you are, on where you live, and the questions are very much oriented
around what you see and experience around you where you live. >> So, the survey can be found on the town's website. Go to Islamma.gov planning community development web page. The link is right there. You can't miss it. There's also a few locations around town. Uh there's these little signs that
have QR codes, so just take your phone, you know, do the QR code, do the survey that way. Uh it's online through Survey Monkey, uh which is very easy to access. Um you can also find physical booklets at both the uh library reception desk as well as the council on aging. And you know, you can return that booklet
whenever it's convenient for you. the zoning audit is essentially done, but it would be we would be remiss if we didn't ask residents for input um who are not necessarily on town boards and therefore would not have gotten an email from us asking for an interview. So, we're going
to hold that audit just a little bit, but we're very much into at this point developing recommendations for the town's consideration. >> The survey is going to remain open until February 6th. Um that gives people plenty of time to still fill it out. Uh give us your feedback. There's some questions in there that are a little bit open-ended. So, if you really want to
give us your feedback, that's your way to do it. Um, so please take our survey. We really need your help. It's going to help Judy with her zoning audit of our town to tell us what we have to do correctly moving forward. Yep. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you.