##VIDEO ID:USX-kut4DMk## sure all right hey there welcome everybody to the January 29th 2025 City V Planning Commission meeting on behalf of the rest of the commission we are grateful you're here to those in person and those turn tuning in remotely say it every time but your curiosity feedback and participation vital to this process of we as we navigate change together here in Dina specifically regarding the ways in which we like to use our land uh you know engagement and your feedback matters uh we're committed to hearing your feedback before every meeting and and considering that as we make decisions uh to recommend or approve to recommend approval or denial toward proposals at hand uh but tonight we don't have any of those we just have one report a sketch plan uh it is on on our City's engagement website better together.org so check it out and if you do have correspondence or any feedback for us send it in an email until it becomes a formal proposal either to us as a group or to City staff and they'll get it our way so what to expect tonight we'll call the meeting to order we'll do a roll call we'll approve tonight's meeting agenda followed by the PR meetings minutes after that we have our community comment period which is your chance to testify about a matter not on tonight's agenda and you'll have three minutes to do so then we have our reports and recommendations and there's just one of them and it's the sketch plan review for 5516 Vernon Avenue after that we have our chair and member comments followed by staff comments and adjournment so without further Ado we'll call the meeting to order then roll call commissioner El here commissioner Padia here commissioner Smith here commissioner day here commissioner Bornstein here commissioner felt here commissioner Henman here chair bennon here next we have the approval of tonight's meeting agenda if there is no proposed changes I'd welcome a motion motion to approve tonight's agenda second second all those in favor say I I I so moved next we have the approval of the prior meeting's minutes from January 15 same deal motion to approve the minutes second all those in favor say I I so moved okay so next we have our community comment period And this is the chance for anyone who is here in person to testify about anything uh not on tonight's agenda so anything but that sketch plan review you have 3 minutes to do so you can come to either Podium when the light turns green State your full name and address and speak your mind when it turns red your time's up and we'll ask you to wrap it up the comments is anyone here for Community comment period all right minus the applicants I see one person shake their head no so I think we're safe to move on from that okay so without any public hearings tonight we jump right to the reports and recommendations so what's a little different with this compared to the public hearings is this is the chance for the city and the applicant team and us to kind of be a little more proactive with a potential project where this where the planning commission's role here is to provide non-binding feedback to the applicant about a potential project before they then submit for a formal application which then triggers the 60-day rule and period where we have 60 days to make a decision and a vote at city council level and that is the public hearing process uh where staff under goes a report but staff still takes a look at this they provide a quick presentation turn it over to the applicant team to kind of do the same we have you know back and forth Q&A and then we provide some non-binding feedback to the team and planner Teague take it away excellent thank you chair members of the commission so as mentioned this is at located at 5516 Vernon Avenue it's straight west of City Hall it's located south of Highland School the property and the whole surrounding area here is zoned R1 single dwelling unit district it's guided in our comprehensive plan for low density residential you can see the large school property to the north there's uh a wetland and some Park property to the east here's an aerial shot of the site note that there is a similar size parcel to the east 558 the site we're looking at here today is about 38,000 Square fet in size just a quickly hit on setbacks the existing house is about 140 feet back the property to the east 127 the single family homes in the area are quite close to Vernon you can see 15 feet 15 and 18 those are rough just taken off the aerial uh photo aerial um henip and county maps here's a look at the existing site you can see this is the house we're looking at this evening so what the proposal is is to tear down that single family home and build two duplexes or town home uh structures on the site one access off of Vernon they would be about 3,000 square fet in size twostory uh four bedroom four bath owner occupied uh housing units so with a formal application we would need to amend the comprehensive plan to regu the site to low density attached housing that's where most of our duplexes are guided low density attached uh a rezoning from R1 to prd2 planned residential district to and a site plan review that would go along with that and potentially a variance I'll get into that in a second but when you look at our PRD standards vast majority of them are met setbacks are met minimum uh lot area per dwelling unit is 7300 Square ft and with this quite large large property it's uh a little over 9,000 square ft 9,000 square ft as you know is our minimum lot size in the in the R1 district one thing that at least I don't believe in all of my time here we've talked about usable lot areas within the PRD zoning District we haven't had any requests to rezone to that zoning District but what that is is usable area that's usable to the residents but not in included in the required setback areas so the area that I highlighted here in green that would be their usable lot area and you need at least 1500 square feet per unit this unit four would be about 20 and again these are just rough estimates um based on the site plan that we have unit four would be code compliant unit three would be slightly under the 1500 and units one and two are around around 1100 square ft but again there would be uh quite ample Green Space outside of that that area so there could be a variance there uh issues to consider um while the properties all adjacent are zoned R1 these two sites are somewhat unique the single family homes to the West are somewhat isolated with a row of trees we saw in the photo we've got the school to the north North there's that large Wetland to the East and then Vernon Avenue on the south so the existing land use plan as I mentioned is guides the property for low density residential the amendment would allow the low density attached residential so there is some property so here's the site that we're looking at to the West the old Vernon development to the West this is guided low density attached residential and it has a prd2 zoning to it this development was rezoned from R1 to prd2 in 1997 it was guided in our comprehensive plan at that time however for low density attached housing there's also a couple of duplexes here along this is a um Highwire electrical easement it I believe the railroad goes through here as well these are a couple of duplexes that were built in the 60s and 70s uh those also are guided low density attached residential so again most of our duplexes along France the busy arterial roadways have that designation uh this is could be considered missing Ming middle housing this isn't affordable housing but it's providing again that that cluster housing that that can be considered a missing middle so I will stop there answer any questions that you may have and the development team here is ready to make a presentation as well thank you Carrie uh any questions fellow Commissioners for Carrie oh come on there's got to be one all right uh let's start with Maryweather she had she beat you barely can you go back over the um usable lot area for the and that's in that goes with the prd2 that goes with the prd2 zoning yes okay could you just run through it again sure it's area that could be used for residents that doesn't include the required setback area so you can see here this is the required setback area it also doesn't include I didn't mention this before it doesn't include parking and drive AES so that's excluded so it's really looked at as Green Space usable for the residents and why do we have that as part of the PRD too I don't know the history behind that it's just it's new and do we have it for any other just the PRD zoning districts but no other residential has it correct that was my question as well can you could you so could you I sorry could you go back to the slide with the differences between R1 and prd2 okay so could you build a single family home in a prd2 Zing District or no like I I'd have to check what's outow in that District I believe it talks about housing units oh I I'll have to check the exact definition I was just trying to figure out if that's like a more inclus a broader and more inclusive category or just like a different category than I think it's up to six units clustered together but i' I'd have to double check I think we still need to talk some more about this cuz I'm not getting it yet so on this on the compliance table it says 11,00 to 2100 what's the 2100 it's just my rough calculation calculating the Green Space here here and here and I just measured to this point here so all of this green space is 2100 for these two units it was about 1,00 and again I just drew a line L here calculated the square footage of this area and this area do we know is the expectation that this is going to be subdivided or what I would imagine it would be a town home plat so it could be well I guess might be a question for the applicants we haven't gone into the to the detail but a cic type town home plant that would be located along the basically the the building walls there could be they could be extended I guess to the lot line where each unit would so that was yes it is going to be subdiv it would be sub okay so the TW because each of the four units has the same footprint but you're saying each unit has different amounts of open area around it not counting Drive aisles or setback right okay okay I think I got that one other question um you know in missing middle is a a term that means different things to different people and I have a question about another term that's kind of like that what what what is a D's definition of spot zoning we don't have a specific Edina definition of spot zoning um you know we have along busier roads we have duplexes whether that's considered spot zoning located right next to a single family home I would interpret a spot zoning it's a land use that's just not compatible with adjacent properties with a prd2 zoning with essentially two duplexes I wouldn't think that's I wouldn't consider that spot zoning okay thanks one option as we move forward and the applicant has had some conversations with the property owner to the east but it would make sense to ruide both Parcels to that low density attached the single family home at 5508 could Remain the comprehensive plan talks about single family homes being allowed uh wouldn't necessarily rezone it at that time but it would a single family home zoned R1 would still be considered consistent with the comprehensive plan for low density attached because it mentions single family homes but it would give them the opportunity in the future to rezone potentially for something similar as what's proposed here this evening so just something to think about as we discuss this one and even though we are going to repat and subdivide we're keeping it as the proposal is to keep it as prd2 because the site's not large enough to accommodate two PRD 1es each with a duplex uh you're talking 5508 also oh I I was talking about 5516 but I guess since they're duplexes I'm a little I guess ambivalent as to why one would need a prd2 versus a prd1 if we're going through the process of replatting and subdividing well we have a separate zoning district for just duplexes an R2 zoning District um there are certain standards for those types of um duplexes you need at least 15,000 square feet each certain amount of Frontage along the road um prd2 seemed to be the best fit here given somewhat similar to the property further furthest west um I didn't run R2 calculations in terms of setback and those kind of things okay thanks would it would it be because of the size because PRD you have to have a minimum lot area of 10,500 ft per dwelling unit I think we would be for one correct yep that's why we would want prd2 over yep over one okay and then you know it's just I always have this handy um the league of Minnesota City's definition of spot zoning because it's discussed a lot at the city council level um but they always the four points that they make or three points really this the practice of giving a parcel of land special privileges that are different from the surrounding area when it's an unreasonable or arbitrary application of zoning and when it creates an island of non-conforming use that significantly reduces the value of the property or surrounding properties right so just something to keep in mind here mhm for sharing that will you like so when is the the re the plan to update the comprehensive plan happening again you what's the timeline on that yeah so in my thinking here is and this to be discussed but really like to get through that zoning ordinance update in the next two years once we complete that I would Envision starting the comprehensive plan in 2027 right at the start of the Year we're supposed to have them completed by December 31st of 2029 we have we would have two years to complete it yeah that's a that said also met council at least the last two comprehensive plans that I've been here for we've requested an extension for an additional year so if we go over that's okay questions for Carrie I guess I I think you alluded to it with including the other property on one of your slides it looked like you did show both properties rezoned potentially or reg guided guided right I was going to and then I think Claire had a great question and I I don't know if you could help further make the distinction of R2 versus prd2 I know you kind of spoke into it but just um I think to just further support and we can get into comments but Vernon is kind of flanked with different densities as most busier roads so um I would maybe disagree and say prd2 surrounded by R1 could seem like spot zoning if it's a different location like if this were in the middle of a neighborhood I think that would feel like it would kind of violate all three of those um so I I think location really matters here but could you speak because then location helps influence why you do R2 versus prd2 as well sure I I can take a quick look at the R2 and see how this project would stack up I can't remember if there's Frontage requirements for each unit that might I'll have to double check that okay yeah where do they have to like it' be a complicated flag pole lot situation prd2 seemed to be a good fit here other questions okay thank you Carrie uh now we'd like to welcome the applicant team up you know just introduce yourselves tell us a little bit about who you are what you do and tell tell us why you think this is a great idea all right um cool excited to be here uh typically around this time I'm I'm like 10th rendition of a kuna matata with the toddler so thankful to be here tonight um and then quick question just toggle through on with this mouse is that cool yes okay sweet we got a slide for you guys to kind of uh share a little bit about uh abundance properties um I'm Jordan Crockett um and today we'll talk about about us a little bit The Proposal uh the plan and then we'll walk through some questions and everything uh with you guys as well um as I mentioned my name is Jordan Crockett I'm the operations project manager good evening everybody I'm Rashad Kennedy owner of keny property development as well as co-founders of these gentlemen next to me and uh we've been in business since 2020 focus on residential commercial uh multifamily mix use U remodels things like that cool and I'm uh Darren Fletcher uh from South Minneapolis co-founder as well and uh we make abundance properties and um at abundance properties our mission is to create abundance through the rehab and um development of communities while empowering and educating individuals to do the same that's really what we stand for and a project that really aligns with our mission statement and core values was one where we worked with a nonprofit out of South Minneapolis PPL if you're familiar with them and um I can talk about it but rather show you guys what this uh project meant to us but also to the community so we have a video for you guys to check it out what's up y'all it's chy hollingworth with abundance properties y'all it's cold out [Music] here it's cold out here we first started this project it was warm out the sun was out we had nice drone shots none of that's happening now it's cold but we still got work to do we've already done Roofing siding Plumbing electrical whatever you could think of we've done it on this receip project and the last part of this is the windows and that's what's happening right now we're doing Chicago Avenue and Portland Avenue windows and uh we getting it done the crew has been amazing and this has been a fun project um that we've been doing with PPL so what I'm most excited about with the receip program is how it's allowing emerging developers to add to their portfolio but not have to take on so much risk with grabbing properties that need a ton of work still so this is a great opportunity for people within the community to now be able to continue to invest back into their community and not take on as much [Music] risk our team here at a L's properties have been excited doing this project with PPL because it's bringing forth Equitable transformation here in South Minneapolis the time is now and Legacy Starts Here sweet and that that's our our uh partner chy as well uh who's not here today but uh cool now we'll talk about uh the meat and bones of the project and everything uh we're super excited uh wanting to be here front of y'all and to talk about it um so as Carrie kind of mentioned um on you know 5516 Vernon Avenue uh we're essentially proposing uh four town homes in a rezone all right so why does it work right that's the question um so I've with with heina um in the city itself uh the comprehensive plan the climate action plan everything leads to increase ing density in targeted areas uh for several layered reasons um in the uh so you can see in the picture that you see now um it kind of shows you exactly where that site is the the orange bubbles are uh targeted areas and this picture is a um from the UFM study that was done in 2024 that um really articulates areas where they are recommending increased density um which as you can see Vernon's on a busy road um when it comes to density uh the concept is if you increase density in the city you'll decrease the vehicle miles traveled or VMT um and you'll also increase people utilizing the transit system which is the goal um and in the climate action plan it actually talks about uh the goal in 2030 of almost doubling the transit usage you know how do you get there you have to increase density you got to make uh some more properties affordable for people working in Adina that want to live in Edina and go to work um so this is this is the perfect project for it um and then when we talk about land use efficiency um it's it's an entire acre um and it you know somebody was just to give an acre uh you know would single family be the IDE ideal use for that with the community uh in mind you know that's the question right um and then the the last piece is uh we got a dynamic team here um and we're extremely excited uh we actually own the property we closed on it already so we are here to partner with you guys we're ready to take action um and we also have a very clear record of success so not just a project you've seen but we also have uh a track record of development doing Town Homes we completed uh in Egan in 2022 as well as Rashad can talk about uh quite a few other uh projects that he's done in Egan as well as that uh uh throughout the Twin Cities essentially oh yeah so this property specifically as Carrie mentioned four tow houses through 3,000 ft each actually Four beds four baths on here it says 3x four baths and the owner OCC and the end goal would be for owner occupants um I know there was a question alluding to um plotting that' be the plan to go do a cic plot townhouse plot um each person would have their own uh designated space as well as a uh management company for uh the association and think else to highlight on that no I think that's that's it for now awesome so in summary as I mentioned edana's comprehensive plan the climate action plan everything essentially highlights increasing density in specific targeted areas um and that's you know the stars are aligning here where uh you know we controled a lot um it's right along a busy Corridor uh where you know Transit can easily be go uh the location and the the size is perfect um to have owner occupants in mind at the end uh you know new families moving in is is who would essentially be buying these properties um and then like I said I I can't brag enough but uh we're a dynamic team and we're taking action throughout the Twin Cities um and we love to share more about that uh as well so thank you all for your time and consideration thank you very much I guess I'm sure we have some questions and then again since this is a sketch plan um we hope to give you a bunch of good non-binding feedback but at least help direct certain aspects or details of the potential project toward a successful outcome so you want to start over there um would you mind explaining for everyone what a cic is yeah um so do I have a defin defition note uh but so in the past so we're also working on a 16year townhouse development in Maplewood so the ones we're doing right now in Maplewood pretty much had to go through this exact process hire an attorney anywhere from 10,000 to 20,000 depending who you're call and how they're feeling that day now I'm just kidding about that part but um yeah and they pretty much you know they're the expert they put that all together do got involved the surveyer he plots it out um and works with the county uh closely to make sure that um that's done right it's like a condominium right where you own your piece but there's like common area and amenities that everyone helps pay for y and manag by an association and they have like a declaration um requirements and stuff like that that is along with the CSC PL um I'm think this is fabulous I would be uh very in favor of a project like this both on this site and the site next door um I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about the bedroom for bath is this a layout that you're you've done before or how did you come to that mix for this site just out of curiosity yeah really from doing it before and um knowing the cost the lumber the siding um LP siding from the roof and so really just kind of I don't want to say plug and playing but just not Reinventing the wheel um there's a lot of other developers and Builders using the same like slab on grade um on the main level uh like Living Kitchen Maybe maybe a powder bath a full bath on the main level and then on the second floor you or you could call it the third too you'll have four bedrooms and then two bathrooms laundry up there and that's kind of the make out of it great thank you good luck oh yeah I was going to just add about the platting that would come before Planning Commission and city council they usually happens after a project has been built so we know exactly where the walls are so that would be a a second step um after should the project be approved thank you for coming here with us um I wanted to ask did you consider putting additional units on this land yeah so we did have so as Jordan mentioned we do have a a pretty solid team and um experts in our own rights and uh our draftsman he gave us a couple ideas um could definitely fit more on there um but just with the layout the setbacks we just felt like four was a good number so that's I mean was there really any science to it not necessarily a little bit of Art and Science um but four felt good um the reason why I ask and we'll deliberate later on is because um you know our single family residential has a lot size of 9,000 square ft and um this is 38,000 ft divided by four so this is as as any kind of single family residential and because we do want to have more density along corridors um I think this is a perfect spot for considering six or eight so I just want to know if you were open to that yeah we we thought about that for sure um it was something that we went back and forth on and um you know we're not necessar stuck on for um we felt like it was a good number good starting point but that's something that you guys are open to that's definitely conversation that we would have as well yeah cuz your numbers work out for four MH and the other reason I was thinking that because you had one um elevation in there of a town host that you had done somewhere else MH and it had um a relatively flat facade and so I'm bringing that up like if there were if you did more if you could add like front porches or um add a little bit more character a few more roof lines in there um and I think that would really the front porch definitely would kind of really help so if you'd be open to something like that for sure like that feedback okay super thank you that's it nice to see you guys it's nice I mean sometimes we get some repeat players in here we haven't seen you before um so it's nice to get like some fresh faces in here oh sorry and appreciate your presentation what are what are your thoughts on the parking is not covered right as far as black top blacktop parking okay you but in two car garages per unit as well oh there would be yeah okay I I didn't I couldn't tell that and then it's kind of like the first floor I guess you could call it the um got it parking got it okay I I I think I missed that and then um so would these be market price units yeah so being that's preliminary in like the design phase and whatnot um some of the numbers that we're looking at as far as the end buyers anywhere from like 800 to 900 okay and that's based off some comparable tow houses not too far from Veron yeah probably maybe like half a mile mile maximum so kind of piggybacked on kind of some of their Design Elements and even a price point too okay yeah I was just curious what they might what Market was for this type of structure I think those are the questions I had for now any other questions for these guys all right quy yeah I certainly appreciate you guys coming out here um good to see some fresh faces of new developers uh thinking very creatively on using um that space um just a couple quick questions you know more so on the work that you guys are doing in Maplewood I was just curious just reading through you know there's a community feedback section just talk to me like a little bit about what what our experience was like did you guys go out to the community ask questions get feedback just tell me a bit more about your experience there um and then sorry Quincy could you clarify so you said the the Maplewood project if if we went out to the community yeah there was a challenges addressed um and I think under that section I'm just reading okay one of your handouts uh and there was a comment here about Community feedback I was just curious about about what that meant or what do you guys do all the experience there I'm Le sh sorry about that I was uh interpretting your question as far as the feedback from some of the neighbors because we did meet with uh some of those Neighbors on uh what's today Wednesday that was on Monday um so I mean basically it was resoning um and just doing this the same process with Maplewood I think their process was a little longer um there were some design I want to say changes or necessarily challenges but from water and sewer um to storm runoff um and just working closely with like the civil engineer in the city the city's engineer and making sure that we're meeting their requirements um and also making sure from civil civil there was a lot of civil um requirements that we had to adhere to so I'd say those were some of the biggest challenges as far as like though the neighborhood and the community they they were forward um it's actually right next door to a townhouse community so they want to see something fresh there wonderful uh good stuff I think the design looks pretty good um I think you mentioned you have an an architect on your team that probably looks at the homes in the region and kind of comes up with a design that kind of fits that neighborhood um and based on the pictures from the other um developments that you've done it seems like it's really nice nice you know definitely the Modern Standard I think uh uh this this area would be looking at um I think the slab onr um in Maplewood that's not what's going to happen here or is it going to be slab on grade here as well slab on grade here as well but definitely um different design elements from the interior and the exterior for example like in Maplewood we use vinyl siding here we do L siding um some things like that um we had decks on the back maybe we do decks in the front on these ones um some changes like that but it would be slab on gr at least that's what we'd be proposing okay right sounds good um there's a lot of mature trees in that area I'm guessing you'll try to preserve them if you could and uh maybe replant so I'm sure the future design might have you know different uh landscaping ideas kind of embedded I'll be excited to see see what those would look like um but that's it for now I think based on you know what I've seen uh we talk more about the zoning and everything but the design look like it's going to work pretty well I like the four units on that lot on how you enter it as well so I thought I was very creative um the location seems like it fits too you know with the density for Veron uh so yeah I think it's positive so far I'm sure we'll chat some and get some more ideas but thanks again thank you welcome very nice to see you um a few questions um did you consider any other configurations um in terms of where the driveways would be or the the homes or anything like that did you do iterations and what were what were the issues around them how' you land on this one yeah so I'd say the other one that we were debating on was uh kind of to maybe uh what's your name Miss Claire uh Point as far as having more than uh four townh houses uh we had one has six um trying to Fig I think the entrance was still on Vernon though it was still right there um but we liked doing split them up into two different buildings so that was the other one that we're kind of debating on was just having six okay but nothing like with all the the not all together or any of the parking in the guest parking in the front or anything like that no we didn't change that up no okay and I was going to ask the same question about why not more units um and sort of to that point of increasing density which I think we all realize is is um an important future goal um and other needs um any consideration for making some or or any part of this affordable housing um we hadn't really talked about that to be honest uh I when we I guess when we say affordable like by the definition it's probably not by the definition right because Stephanie did a memo where she said it does not you know constitute affordable housing so right um but at the same time when we so there's other we have a handful of other projects going on in E Dino right now um some range from 1.2 to 1.8 million um which would be designed very similar to these at a much different price point so although it doesn't NE meet the affordable requirements you're getting a lot of the same design elements that these houses are going for anywhere from 1.3 1.4 1.5 just as far as like the kitchen the bathrooms the material selections being used um so no it's not affordable but it's it's um a lower price point than what you're seeing um if if that makes sense uh as far as some of the design elements and materials being used I thank you I understand what you're saying I I I just um I just think it's unfortunate that we can't on this parcel somehow um con be considering that but but I understand if it doesn't meet you know the economics of the situ of your situation um but to that point in the in what was submitted um there was something about them costing between or the price point being between 7 and 800,000 and you just it just sounds like it got ratcheted up to between 8 and 900,000 and and the reason for that is um I yeah I don't really have a reason I'm not sure which piece uh yeah that that could have been my uh my mistake or typo um we were still kind of looking at numbers uh to see what could work um and we definitely as a group you know affordable housing is definitely something that's you know on the horizon something that we are always looking for those type of projects as you can see uh the PO project as well as some of the other things we're doing for clients uh are similar in that realm um but when we were looking at the economics of it uh we were kind of really basing off the comparables in the area uh so I guess when I was saying affordable is more like relatively affordable U for EO thank you um and then in the video um discussed uh partnership with PPL um are you going to have any such partnership um in this project you don't always work with with PPL no ma'am that that was um a project where we were um they have a portfolio of uh small multif family anywhere from duplexes to six plexes that we were Contracting on to uh and we did the windows the all the um um the roof the furnaces boilers all the um the heavy stuff um so that they can sell it back to um investors in the community at a discounted price they're going to the city to get um uh interest for given and everything so they can sell it back to the community um at a lower price point are you involved do you ever work with Summit Academy OIC I'm not familiar not familiar with them okay um um and would you be involved in the financing at all so I guess that that kind of brings me to my next question was this with this project bring with it any kind of Bridge to government financing or anything like that or you just require the buyers to get private financing um there there is no other uh financing I guess to your to your question um but I'm sorry I missed the the last part did you say the the buyer financing yeah I mean once you sell it I mean it's just all private correct yes just all private okay um last question oh there be common area maintenance of some X dollar per unit to cover your management costs and things like that ongoing costs um and have are you aware have you looked at uh the like the traffic patterns during school because you're so close to Highlands as um many of us are aware the traffic around that school is quite a cluster you know at certain times of the day and even though you're you're close to the school but you have you know um have you considered that in terms of you know access and things like that and um possibly the impact it might have on the price we have um we have heard similar feedback um we haven't done an in-depth study uh of it so far but it is something that we've uh you know looked at or kept in the in the back of our notes for sure so okay and as we move forward with the process it'll definitely be something we'll be looking into okay thank you thank you thanks for coming I was going to say thank you for your interest in Adina but then you said you already closed on the lot so thank you for your investment in Adina we're glad you're here uh did you say you started in 2020 yes correct been busy you got uh Egan Maplewood and St Paul projects I graduated in college in 2016 um went to Augsburg College I'm D study business management was also on a wrestling team I say that to say right out of college I was pretty much operating as a GC um but I I didn't have my official GC license until 2020 so really been doing it nine plus years um but as far as like official GC general liability you know employees all that 2020 MH that's impressive congratulations you got some really nice work in the presentation that we saw thank uh just a couple specific questions on this project the four surface spots those are guest parking correct shared for the four units I I believe that's how we would make it out yeah okay so the drive a and the four guest spots would be HOA correct and just for clarity are you imagining subdividing into two or four four okay okay for so each buyer would have their own separate address own uh ownership of a particular area between the walls and on the lot in a driveway okay thank you thank you any other questions right now I just had one so there was a project Rec oh did you have one oh thanks there was there was a pizza place proposed for Vernon recently did you guys watch what happened with that okay did you I I I did hear about it where they at three to five where what uh where the city council voted 3 to five forward with it well there was just a lot of discussion so right down the street there was kind of a basically unbuildable lot that there was a request to rezone um and regu that and amend the comprehensive plan and then rezone that that parcel and it just generated a lot of discussion and people had it's not worth rehashing now obviously but like everyone the the neighborhood had a lot of comments and then we had an opinion and the council had a lot of comments about the comp plan and rezoning in this area along Vernon and I just didn't know if you guys had followed that whole discussion because a lot came out of it but but if not that's fine we don't we don't need to get into it um there were just a couple Concepts that came out of that whole discussion that that may or may not be relevant to this request as well so later on all right thanks all right yeah car I could give you a little feedback on the R2 I was looking at it looks like a number of variances would be needed if if the request was for an R2 District there's a 90t lot width requirement this slot is about 140 ft wide so there would be variances there each unit would need 25 ft of Frontage on a public street so that could turn into a really awkward plat so I think PRD to would be the the best fit here thanks Carrie stealing my oh you got my answer before the question all right good um I think it I guess starting with process uh commissioner Smith asked a question about feedback you mentioned you met with some neighbors could you share some of that feedback that you've received already yeah absolutely absolutely so we connected with uh uh some neighbors to the east um and it was it was a a great connection um it's a almost a generational uh family that's there um and also a neighbor uh to on that in that development I forget the street that's right there yeah yeah to the West right um was also there as well so it was really great to hear from them um they were definitely like in approval they want to see something new there it's been sitting for two years so those were like direct quotes from them um is kind of what they said there so uh yeah it was yeah it was a good meeting i' say so I guess following up on that neighbor to the east is there any potential of interest from them to sell that you guys could buy that property too yeah so it's a it's a good question and I think it's something where uh there's more conversations to be had uh is what I would kind of sum it up as okay because it is a a family they're not um they're not in distress or they're not like you know I need to you know let this go it's something that uh is really important to them uh but that's to say that um there there's more conversations sure cuz uh I mean I'll get into my comments later but I would say probably the one key ingredient to making this like a just a home run is if this were both properties just what you could do with that opportunity and maybe the I I think this the persuasion toward this not being spot zoning I think makes it I just picture that and there's along with my comments of what you could do with both of those properties together could create something a lot more palatable instead of just tucking all these in between uh the single family home so I'd say that's that was why I was asking and then um other questions uh do other projects of yours feature that that small guest parking lot and I guess why' you guys consider that versus just Green Space or playground or something shared um is it just you want a spot for other guests to park versus in the driveways of the people they're visiting or what are you thinking yeah so it's a good question uh definitely just want to have more more like parking available other than just what's theirs um and you know if I had to answer that even more honestly it would be you know the team as far as the architect the uh cver engineer they've been doing this a lot longer than I have been and um when they have recommendations like hey we should do this I'm usually like okay that sounds about right okay and that's I definitely like lean on their expertise and their feedback and their design and um always like to buy into you know their idea so um th those would be the two main points I just wanting to be able to have more options and as well as them saying hey I think this is a good idea okay thank you I think that's it for I the questions I have and I know some some fellow Commissioners have some feedback for you guys and I certainly do too but and we can always jump back to questions if they come back uh but anyone else have any other specific questions for yeah Comm Smith yeah this question is just for Doc director Teague um you know if we switch from switch to prd2 and we expand that space to also Encompass the home on 5508 and that lot area um would we need to get any kind of feedback from the ownership from the owners there or or would they have any kind of say in in us doing that or could we independently as a body make that decision yeah the city hasn't proactively rezoned properties we haven't done that so what I would Envision let's say we wanted to there's a couple options we could amend the comprehensive plan to include their property they would have to sign the application so they would be you all for it um obviously so they would have to sign that the application for the comp plan amendment to Encompass both Lots they could remain as a single family home because a single family home is mentioned as a allowed use and that low density attached District the other option they could even be a party to a rezoning application so they would sign the comprehensive plan and the rezoning in rezoning them to um to the prd2 the single family home would become a non conforming use um if it were to burn they would have to build the exact same house um but other we potentially could look at doing like a a ghost plat what could happen in the future um kind of as phase two with that house um should that house be removed in the future so there's some options there but they would have to be a party to an app to rezone or regu their site is that true if we waited until the uh official next comp plan if we were to propose a new land use guidance we would we would get them involved upfront kind of s we don't do that very often with Comprehensive plan amendments the one where we did was in the 70th in Cahill district there was one property owner and they were agreeable to that land use change so um anytime we're looking at ruid we would definitely want to get them on board early got it thanks just one more clarifying question um director T can you say again the prd2 property to the West on Vernon was rezoned to prd2 from R1 but did you say it was already guided to low density residential correct I found residential correct yep I found a land use map from the 1980 comprehensive plan and it showed it as low density attached okay so that rezone was consistent with the comprehensive plan correct got it thank you all right how about some non-binding feedback who's got some all right you just start it back up we'll come down we just come down I had to go last last time so I'll go first this time uh we just a few minutes ago somebody asked about the surface parking and I'm trying to get the picture back up I don't have a lot of feedback on this on the on the basic site plan but that's one that I'm wondering about it's not clear to me that that needs to be surface parking I not saying you shouldn't listen to your architect because I'm not an architect but just um as a planner seems like you have space in front of the garages for a couple of guest cars and I know that's awkward in in other properties you would have your guest park on the street and that's not really an option here but just practically speaking if I'm a guest visiting unit 3 or unit four I'm not sure I'd even know that the surface Park the guest parking was even there so just for what it's worth some feedback on that um as far as the project overall uh we are historically very cautious about uh rezones of R1 director T I think that's fair to say um and yeah this is an a isolated spot it's a very large lot it's on a corridor that we're interested in uh increasing density on and if you do the math it's not a materially more intensitive land use than the neighbors to the West uh I mean we're asking for five units per acre or five units per acre would be required but in fact if you do the math it's 4.6 versus 4 4.0 and the neighbors to the left so in the scheme of things it's a pretty trivial departure from the density that's already there uh in that neighborhood particularly right to the rep to the West I think what's most important to me is um this is what we say we want missing middle I can't tell you how many times as a planning commissioner I've heard people talk about wanting missing middle um we want it and this is a great place to put it I it just seems completely obvious so how will we get there seems like we could rezone and change a comprehensive plan and do the variance that we need to or we could uh Kick the Can down the road and wait for a zoning update and comprehensive Plan update in five years these are all valid options I mean there no matter which one of those three options you they're equally transparent public processes public gets to weigh in no matter which of those courses we take um the reason that I would be comfortable with a rezone and a comprehensive plan and a variance would be because we do that now rather than wait five years when we when we may not have somebody standing in front of us who's interested in doing it so as I said I'm not uncomfortable with the rezone and comprehensive plan change in a variance others may be but I would say that if we do choose to Kick the Can down the road and wait for the zoning update Andor the comprehensive Plan update that really increases the pressure on all of us to get those large scale forward-looking plans exactly right down to the parcel and I'm not sure that's a realistic expectation so I'm really excited about this opportunity and hope we can hope we can keep it moving thanks um well I think this is a great project um in spite of the fact that you know I mentioned affordable housing as much as I would love to see more of it I understand that this might not be the right parcel but I think the project that you are have brought to us um is a good project and I'll generally push back on my fellow commissioner Aly because I I looked at the um at the drawings and I thought oh there's four extra parking spaces that's so great CU then everybody is in all cramped and jockeying for position plus the fact that there's not a lot of available parking elsewhere so if one person has a few people over everybody else is out of luck so I like the configuration with all due respect um I believe that with the comprehensive plan amendment that got passed for the Hankerson property where we it was a fairly similar if I recall correctly ask and um that got passed I believe that that's setting something of a precedent in terms of of what you're looking for and I would be all for a resoning to get you know more housing and sounds like it's a great project so my full support at this point yeah again thanks for bringing this idea forward you know uh we love to see when Developers like yourself identify opportunities and then we get to debate it and talk through it I think this is certainly one of them um I see this in you know there's a zoning question right I think the design question most most of us I would guess is positive on that um the zoning question is the is the one that you know to direct to aly's point we try not to do that but sometimes it would make sense what would make way more sense is if you had boat lots and then you could design something and then we could Zone that larger space and it would make sense and it would fit into the community it it almost feels like this particular property is kind of locked in by uh Wetland and trees right on both sides and then the school and then the Vernon so it's almost like a mini Community right it's like if you come and live here you get to know your neighbors really really really well because they live right next to you and there's no neighbors you could easily just run off to and hang out with you just kind of hang out in that spot so from a design perspective I like the design but think about the design as if you had the other spot too right so assume that in the future that becomes available you have the conversations with that neighbor and they say Hey you know this sounds great and let's just say you acquire it then your current building that you're going after with match and fit like the driveway how you enter how you exit those kind of things just think of it as one unit is my recommendation for us as a commission right um I love how director Teague looked up you know the difference between R2 and prd2 and how prd2 seemed like it made sense this to me is a nice gradual increase from uh single to attached and I think that made sense to me but at the same time it does feel kind of like spot zoning a little bit but it seems like this one would work so I'm not sure how we go about changing that or if we have to change that now but I'll be in favor of it and try to find a solution or a way forward to get this Zone properly so that these higher density type units that fit that missing middle you know not affordable but missing middle um could be developed because to the points that we heard so far and all the research that we've done this is exactly the kind of spot where we want this kind of housing right and you guys definitely um found a a really great opportunity to uh do that so I'm I'm I'm very positive and I'm in favor for it um I'll just love to hear more from my fellow Commissioners on the zoning question and how could we advance that forward all right thank you for being here here tonight um try not to rehash too much of what you've already heard but as far as just feedback on the the lot design itself could you maybe go bring that slide back up actually on your presentation this one yep so I mean the two immediate thoughts that jump out to me are you know the one around the trees and I think we talked about that there's all the mature trees there and trying to minimize how many mature trees you need to tear down and then kind of following that in terms of the surface that's covered by uh concrete and stuff here you know I think you know maybe there could be a little bit more creativity employed here um you could potentially flip you know those garages so that they are next to each other right so you don't have to have separate driveways for each in order to reduce the the amount of lock cover the impermeable surface coverage that you have going on there um you know just again there's a lot of and you know I echoed Comm aly's thoughts there on parking and really just impermeable surface space right Trying to minimize that and think of how you could maybe position these a little bit differently to try to even get and we talked about the usable lot area right Beyond what's the setb and how much Green Space the residents have could potentially do something a little differently here I'm only a chemical engineer I'm not an architect so I can't can't give you too many specifics but I'm sure that could be something that's brought up in conversation um and then I guess they just you know that's that's the main feedback I think overall um you know I like like the concept you know I like that you're trying to keep an owner occupied that you're not a big Investment Group coming in you know taking owner owner opportunities away and then renting it back out for outrageous prices to people giving a chance at home ownership in that missing midle um to comment on the the zoning piece and spot zoning and the comprehensive plan you know and you brought up key site right and the main objection I think around that was that it was a commercial site in the sea of residential and I remember Julie R talking about that specifically and this is really just residential in the sea of residential I mean it's a slight slight change in residential surrounded by other houses right barely I wouldn't even hardly call them much more dense based off the the the lot coverage that we require for our ones and how much how big this lot is for four different for four units um I also like it's not a PUD so that's always that's always a plus for me for something like this that we're actually conforming to one of our existing zoning uh designations so that's great so all in all you know I think there's a little room for improvement maybe again with the layout here again with trying to reduce some of that permeable surface or impermeable surface um and trying to save trees and and whatnot but I think you have a great start so thank you it's interesting so Vernon's like we're all talking about Vernon all the time now and I think like sitting in the background is the question what what should like just setting this one individual proposal it's just the bigger question of what should Vernon look like going forward and what should it what should Vernon be guided for in the comprehensive plan and how should the properties be zoned and how you know you pointed to the University of Minnesota study that was presented to us and they proposed a really dense Vernon not just on one parcel but the whole thing yeah you know and commissioner Miranda if you're still here would would have a fair amount to say about about his vision for that as well so I think IDE just ideally that question would get answered first and the comprehensive plan would be updated or amended to clearly articulate what Vernon should be guided for including this parcel and everything around it whether it's low density attached or something else I don't know but that's in the ideal world I think that would happen first there's skepticism that it will happen that way um and if anybody I think everybody here knows like especially with that area and the folks who live around there if anybody proposed making any kind of significant change to Vernon like wholesale you would hear very emotional reactions to put it to understate it um and like for example if someone proposed making all of Vernon low density attached um there'd be strong reactions to that or even a significant part of it so I I'm a little conflicted about whether the right processes to figure out what Vernon should look like and just deal with that issue first and then everyone has certainty and can can approach it with with that or to to take these little minor changes that come and I don't know what it looks like maybe a little bit of a patchwork or something so I don't I don't have a fully formed opinion on this just know that that's a dynamic in the back like Vernon is there's these bigger questions are all implicated by these individual projects um and I don't know how that's going to play out you know with the different decision makers um I think there's there's I I I like a lot about what you guys proposed I think there's also something a little bit random about just re as a as a Planning Group saying from a planning perspective we think we should um just amend one amend the comp plan to just change what one parcel's guided for I think just just in actually for from a planning perspective that's a little bit it's just a little bit that like left to be desired there even if there were two uh adjoining Parcels that were regid that were then abutted up against a marsh or something and it was the beginning of a corridor that was starting to be Reid you could explain that a little bit more I don't know persuasively to people when you made your not you guys but we could um I'm just explaining to you why the reasons why I don't know how this is going to net out actually um like I think commissioner Aly said said there's probably significant pessimism about the we want denser types of housing in these areas I think folks are really skeptical rightly so about whether that will ever happen the way it should um which is through a wholesale uh adjustment to the type of documents that govern these types of areas and so we always struggle with this you know do you do you appro you do you make it you make incremental progress towards your goals when it's available or you try try to do it in a more l iCal way um so that might again Merit approving this at if proposed it might be um an opportunity to start momentum towards making Vernon overall look a little bit different um maybe you need to start with one to make progress on the whole but regardless so I don't have I don't have a fully formed opinion on this one yet because of those Dynamics I think some folks on the council might struggle um to approve this having not approved the pizza place you know when I listened to the conversation that happened around that you know a lot of the residents their point was and I I actually didn't agree with it but their point was um the comprehensive plan is a promise made to us and when you change it for one parcel you're breaking your promise to us and we relied on it when we moved in here and folks on the council you know some of them adopted that same view and ultimately deciding that a business you know a site that had been commercial for decades we you know the comp plan wouldn't be amended to reflect the commercial nature of of that parcel they said that the comp because it had been guided differently that was a promise made to the residents of the city and well we can't break that promise now so there are these kind of like Dynamics out there that someone's going to have to kind of engage on when they make the final decision I don't know if the council's going to stay consistent on that type of perspective or whe they're going to change I can't predict it um so so so that's really it I mean I think there's definitely Pros to this really appreciate your presentation it would be awesome if we could get more housing that looked like this in Idina especially long Vernon um process-wise whether enough folks are going to be persuaded in this instance for all those reasons I just don't know but I just thought feedback wise it would just be good to know about that context as you continue to have these conversations and continue to kind of present things to folks because eventually that bigger question you know like folks might ask that bigger question how does this make sense from a planning perspective for Vernon as a whole so really appreciate you coming in thanks a lot y thank you for being here um I do want to address your comments we and and commissioner Pia talked to this we did approve um the anerson town homes and that was turning R1 into um denser residential and just because there's only a couple of other PRD twos doesn't mean there's a lot of other duplexes along Vernon and the comp plan does recommend higher density on L Vernon when people get upset it's about their zoning the zoning is the problem is comp plan is pushing us to higher Den residential along and that's what happened with the pizza place too is that the commercial was not in the comprehensive plan the comprehensive plan was for um heavier residential along there and for me because the climate action plan which you referred to um the comp plan the transportation plan the University of Minnesota study we have a housing crisis um unless we kind of allow denser uses a heavier traveled are major kind of routes this is one half mile from the 46 bus stop right now um I know the 46 is looking to expand the bus service as soon as the stations go in in um on the other side of 169 for the light rail um and we are now allowing 8 us on every single family residential which is single family residential is 9,000 square ft² and an Adu allows like 1 and a half units per 9,000 square feet so I'm thinking you guys should do six units on here and I don't you know so I would allow like pushing this farther back towards the school because it's it's still schools are allowed in Residential Properties but there is a lot of room back there um I would be willing to kind of push the drive a little farther as long as you can do some planting on that I do agree with like thinking towards the other property but I would not consider even talking about the other property until you have conversations with the homeowner I'm not going to go there um and commissioner Smith you talked about Community um and we talked about kind of I had brought up covered porches and you talked about decks covered porches create Community because people can sit out there in all kinds of weather and um talk with their neighbors and so I would strongly strongly recommend those too um that's it I'd say do more okay yes thank you guys for standing up there for so long and clearly you know you're at the center of some hot topics and very current discussions uh here in the city Beyond just your project um as commissioner Bornstein said uh we do have to think about uh the comp plan um and how that that is our vision um but it's a 10-year comp plan and for me I I very much believe that we need to make incremental progress because Lord knows 10 years ago was a very different world than we're in today and so I think we do have to accommodate that um I'm not going to give away your negotiating position with the neighbor but that would be I think as we've all sort of alluded to a SL a slam dunk if you can make it happen um I'm okay if getting a variance for this usable lot area I sort of agree that this is a great use of this site and um to me I would have no problem if you can I I guess I wouldn't let setbacks or this usable lot variance be the reason that you don't deliver the most the best product that you can here um I think at the7 to 800,000 price point you could almost have the spec built because it will be a very in demand product um and I sort of you know if you want to put soft feelers out there I think there'll be a lot of people who who would love 3,000 square feet they might not need four bedrooms or four bathrooms or whatever but there's a lot of people who'd like to downsize from from their home which in a few years will be median price of a million dollar to something smaller and I think um this is exactly what is needed here um and I'd even to the comments that other folks have made about um affordability you may even find that you don't need the white marble granite High super high-end finishes that there may even be a demand for a true sort of General consumer product um and I think this is a great site um more it' be better I do love that that they duplexes because then everybody gets more windows versus like row homes but um I hope you guys can figure out how to make it work on paper I hope your negotiations if you choose to have them uh go well and um yeah just really excited to to get this project going I forgot one thing I also agree with kind of flipping the garages towards each other CU one unit for could have Windows on the south side but each unit could have Windows on all of their exterior sides so I agree with the flipping of the garages all right thank you guys I have a little bit of feedback maybe some of it a departure from others could you read the definition of the spot zoning again I think it's I just want to be very clear with what you guys ought to expect as far as it goes for the next steps and what the process looks like and what you're up against um the guidance from the league of Minnesota cities is that Spa zoning is the practice of giving a parcel uh of land special privileges that are different from the surrounding area it's uh considered illegal when it's an unreasonable or arbitrary application of owning laws and it's considered illegal when it creates an island of non-conforming use that significantly reduces the value of the property or surrounding properties so I guess how you read that or how others is that it needs to check all those boxes to make it spot zoning or just you know I'm looking for maybe discussion here if it significantly does one of those if they purchased both and came to us and it was just a bigger lot it would still be a spot if if I mean if we're going to look at it as we've taken one parcel in isolation or one area in isolation no I know I'm just saying like how how that reads I mean is it all or is it and or or I'm I'm just curious right because I mean I think we have to confidently stand behind this isn't some form of spot zoning I don't think it does any of the four to merryweather's point you could if this if you split this into two lots two R1 Lots you could still have two houses with 280u so you'd still end up with four families on this piece of land I don't think it impacts negatively anybody's property value because the people to the other side of the bushes are completely unimpacted by the use of of this land I mean it's not going to be a manufacturing plant the schools behind it the road next to it the one owner is right next to the lake I gu back I mean how do you read that to I mean to me so in the City attorney has commented on this before right it's it is very it's not a very black and white definition right and I think to the way I would look at it and others could look it different is how big of an ask are you what is the change that you're going to we're going from single family to single family attached right and that's is that significantly different than changing from you know P putting a PUD in the middle of residential area or a commercial space in the middle of a residential area uh you know it's not to me it's not you're not giving a bunch of special privileges right we're meeting the zoning existing zoning code where it's not unreasonable or arbitrary according to all of our planning documents and say this is what we're aiming for in this in this Corridor um and we I certainly wouldn't say that it significantly reduces the value of the property or the surrounding properties we're not putting a power plant next to a school or in the middle you know in the middle of a single family neighborhood right so that's that's different to me this is like it's such a little step up that I if I were arguing from a legal standpoint I wouldn't think it would be spot zoning but so so a little bit of why yeah can just build on that a little bit I don't I don't know the all the history of spot zoning law but my understanding is that it a big part of it and where it started was anti-corruption like a planning commissioner a city council would take a bribe to allow a factory next to a residential or inter residential area like that's be the extreme case of it and that would be bad so I think that was the the the the original basis of it not to say that that's all of it but that's a big part of it yeah and I'd say like a lot of it has to do with just basic planning principles throwing something random somewhere so so a little bit of why I'm asking that is in this process once you have to request a comprehensive Plan update it's a much harder ask to achieve because it requires super majority vote by the council so they they would have to approve this 4 to one now I like I feel like we' speaking for all of us maybe felt a little blindsided with this project we're talking about down the road that was like a commercial use someone proposed an awesome restaurant there that like people could gather at we voted to support that unanimously it didn't get that super majority vote right and it isn't happening now so you have to be up against that and some of the things that were discussed beyond what you what was discussed tonight there is a there's a difference between this site and that site where the use was bringing people together so you could argue for from our sides there's this positive impact for neighboring properties in the neighborhood to have a place to come together and one of the the pinch points and pressure points for the council was also that change would negatively impact the neighboring properties so what I could see here plain Devil's Advocate is the neighboring property to the east not being a part of this you have one acre next to one acre lot in an R1 Zone and now your neighbor intensifies their use times four with a lot of surface parking other people there I could see a reasonable case to say that adversely impacts that neighboring property I don't see it to the ones to the west but I could see that argument to the East and that's what makes me a little unsure about loving this where if it was both of them I think what you could do because it is isolated two properties you know you have those things to the east I think it's it makes for a much a much better Community as commissioner Smith brought up if both of those properties were one so I know we're not looking at that now but that's where my hesitation is because I do think that this potentially adversely impacts the neighbor to the east um compared to doing nothing so that's that's just an opinion um but that's what makes me not love this as much like if if you had that property to the east we would see a much different design of and configuration of this particular property here which I think would be more efficient and as you mentioned you know you have an acre you want to be most efficient with that land use but if you had two acres you could be even more efficient with fitting more people and providing what I would say is like what seems like an A logical opportunity here is more of the that courtyard style housing where you kind of flank the perimeter and have like a a park all eyes on a common spot for people to hang out and gather so I'm just letting you guys know the process like to get the comprehensive plan changed compared to the one down the street that did go to you said it was originally guided right they just had to or it was zoned that way it was it was guided medium density residential but zoned commercial I I guess I'm referring to the the r the R2 or the prd2 on the south side yeah the old Vernon uh that was zoned R1 and was rezoned to prd2 okay and so on the heels of the past comprehensive Plan update it it it was at least advertised and Comm communicated to the community that our focus is really on our commercial nodes and the small area plans and we don't want to start upzoning R1 areas especially if it's not in a logical succession so like the Vernon project too being separate it was already a multifam lot that that got densified and then it was the neighboring lot so it was different than this and I see this as unique as most projects are unique but this isn't as ideal of a you know logical transition as some of our other ones because there's no history of the density right here on this side next to it around it and it it didn't have a different use that we're placing it for so I I just see that as as a tougher ask um but if you get to the rezoning and what we have at hand the prd2 seems to make the most sense um as far as your layout goes um I feel like there's a little bit more to be desired too and I'm I'm I'm not necessarily A proponent of the parking unless there's like specific agreements cuz what's stopping one of the units from filling all those parking spots all the time uh what commissioner Miranda would say you build stuff for cars it's just going to get used by cars so I feel like if you didn't need need it you shouldn't do it and if that helps create like a green space like if you can't successfully negotiate the property of the East and this is what you got I could see unit three and four kind of pushing more to the West um maybe keeping the driveway farther to the east pushing unit one and two just a little more to the north and if you took out that parking lot maybe you had have like a little common Green Space or Park you know for like a playground or something for the users besides parking so just just thinking to maybe sweeten the deal and to provide something that isn't more just car generation right the whole point of this is to densify it so people don't drive as much so I kind of see that as like an opposing you know feature um so that that would help um I and I I think that's it I I mean in general I support like I support this and I I want to see this happen I just want to be realistic of the next steps and who you're going to talk to and what other things they're going to be looking at and I think there is a tough sale on the comprehensive plan Amendment only um and I think everything else here looks really good and I I mean I personally wish you the best on this I think it's the right type of layout if this stays the same and if you do get that property to the east I think continuing this type of design to kind of make more of like if you look up Courtyard housing of what that is sometimes it's like you know you got an alley behind it so you don't have roads driving up through it but it kind of keeps all eyes on a common space and there's a couple examples of that in Idina just south of 50th in France with like a really nice development where it's basically a you but like you can take that type of style and get maybe more units to it so yeah just your on your comment if you move forward um with or without the parcel or without the parcel to the east um having a letter of support from them about how they feel about the project um might be beneficial and kind of help that argument since they would be the one neighbor most impacted and I guess I'd say yeah going forward like the problem with the sequence of this is you don't get to be ideal with consolidating things so I would just let you know if that happened I would be personally more willing for other variances to get the next set of housing closer to that prop property line to kind of connect the units along the back um just cuz that that property the East is wider not as long I mean it's as long but it kind of kind of loses some of its distance so I I think where you got things is generally good I I I just think there's a little bit more to be desired with kind of that parking situation so I'd kind of argue more for just keeping it to a driveway people could kind of Park along the side of the driveway you know um and as long as there's a place to kind of turn around um I just I guess I'd like to see something a little different there any other feedback from anyone else do you guys have any questions for us after hearing all this it's a lot of stuff at you um my apolog I had a few every time you guys were talking I appreciate the feedback they'll probably come back to me but um one thing uh to I thought about it some more uh to Bonnie's kind of question of like why not affordability one one uh feedback that we did get uh when we were having the conversation with neighbors is uh that that was a scary word for them uh first question this isn't going to be affordable is it you know so that that was kind of part of it and then um just looking at the the variances and setbacks and things um was part of it um as far as and I really appreciate especially the um that the counter thoughts too like that's super helpful so as we go into February 4th we can prepare and um and have a response for those questions uh is there anything else that you uh that that you think we should be prepared for uh or that maybe a uh you know a hot button for the council or anything for February 4th don't use the word affordable just at all it's attainable housing it's for the average I mean like the a word has a lot of connotation in conversations right now so I would just not use that word EX any else anyone yeah and not not because it wouldn't go over well with this group because everybody here is on board with that I mean how many times have we that's not why you're saying that it's because it it creates a dynamic in the community yes yes that like if you guys ever go on next door I hope you don't honestly but if you ever do you know and someone says affordable half the room will be filled um with people against it for that reason so these are just strategic tips not because this body needs to we can weigh through that stuff I build affordable housing so I'm very pro- affordable housing it is just a a loaded word right now understand bigger picture thank you well if that's it we really appreciate your guys' time appreciate you being bold enough to come forward with this plan and bring something to the community that is arguably being asked for in a place that makesense so good luck to the rest of the process we expect to see you again with a formal application hopefully and uh until then good luck thank you guys appreciate it all right well that was it on the agenda for business so that leaves it to chair and member comments so I guess uh chair and member comments yeah I one all right you got it okay before I say this I I have a I have a thought experiment to share with the commission tonight but before I say that I want to speak directly to the camera and say anyone who's listening or watching no one at the city is working on this what I'm about to say it's just a creative exercise for the Planning Commission so I have a neighbor who uh during the the um budget conversation recently um we had lots of conversations about what's in the city budget what's not in the city budget and should it be there should it not be there and one of the things he said to me was why does the city own a golf course and I don't have any opinion really I don't play golf but I don't have any opinion about whether we should own a golf course or not I think it's an interesting question I don't know but that got me thinking like well what if we didn't and so the the thought exercise that I wanted to challenge you with is what would would you do as a planner with 402 Acres of undeveloped land in a Dina it's 17,520 Square ft what would you do you don't have to answer I just want you to think about it because it's kind of interesting to think well that would be really different for a Dina what could we do with it not saying we should just saying what if that's it so which golf course just so everybody oh okay I just I know just for the record yep yes can I say something I thought that was a really good question and I think you're like you're ahead of your time because um like there's so many golf courses and this is just my personal opinion what a bad use of land like do we really need this much Golf and it's just you know what if it were just a park so I just appreciate that you're raising it um there's so many other things that could be done with some of the land that is a golf course right now I'm not even talking specifically about Brar but just generally I think someone's going to watch this back if anyone watches these they're going to watch this back in 10 or 20 years and be like commissioner alire was the first voice on the question of do we need all the golf courses or can they be better to used literally in any other way um for something for something that I don't know makes the community better some other way it's controversial now I mean I'm sure but I really think you're on to some things for for clarity I am not recommending this I think it's just an interesting thing to think about I was just gonna say Fred Richards anyone right I mean also I think no one asked that question soon enough you know for that golf course that then turned into a park you it was kind of reactive toward the end where maybe if you had that teed up before it would have been a little more um yeah yeah all right I'll end it there any other uh chair member comments anything all right commissioner Pia uh yeah just to let everybody know that the Human Services Task Force has just about completed its um uh marching orders in terms of you know it's a two-year project and last year we had evaluated um all the rfps that had come in for City money and dled out that money for two separate years um this year we did site visits and as we finish up um we are recommending to the city which is the first time that they increase funding um in spite of the fact that there's many budget discussions going on um and just to refresh everybody's memory um the Human Services Task Force has somebody from every Commission on it and it sits and recommends this um um expense allocation um from the city budget to worthwhile organizations that um work with ader residents that don't provide that ser and the city doesn't provide that service elsewhere so we're at the end of our tenure now and recommending increase funding for we'll see what the city thinks about it in this next budget go around so thank you any anyone else right look to Carrie staff comments yep just a quick update from the last council meeting they reviewed the sketch plan for the Eden 100 building on stilts over here we're anticipating a formal application probably in the next month or so traffic it's a pretty big traffic study that's underway and that's going to take some time and the other was the Highwood Drive the shifting of the lot lines the council approved that and that's it could you share a little bit about council's thoughts on sketch plan if you if you had any to summarize in general I think they were supportive you know there was a lot some of the recommendations here um Shifting the building over creating more green space activating uh the the street frontages those types of things yeah it was good all right that it one last item motion to close second all those in favor say I I so moved the meeting has been adjourned thank you everybody for