##VIDEO ID:u-47JW9a-m0## recommendations and I'll go through what to expect when we get to the public hearing portion uh which includes a call and number for those who are tuning in remotely uh but you can just hang tight for now uh the agenda will go as follows we'll do a call to order roll call approval of tonight's meeting agenda followed by the approval of the prior meeting's minutes then we'll do community comment which similar to a public hearing is your chance for those who are here in person to speak about something not on tonight's agenda after that we have the public hearing which is your chance to speak about that matter on tonight's agenda and since we have no reports and recommendations we'll go right to staff and chair member comments followed by adjournment so without further Ado we'll call this meeting to order and then roll call commissioner elire here commissioner Miranda here commissioner Padia here commissioner Smith here commissioner jonus here commissioner day here commissioner Bornstein here commissioner felt here commissioner hanaman here chair Bennett here as well just you know it's Halloween spooky okay so uh we have the approval of tonight's meeting agenda any uh any takers on that motion to approve the meeting agenda second all those in favor say I I I so moved next we have the approval of the prior meetings minutes from October 16th motion to approve prior meeting minutes second all those in favor say I I so moved all right next we have the community comment period as I mentioned this is the chance for anyone who's here that would like to speak about any matter that's not on tonight's agenda you have 3 minutes to do so you can come up to a Podium State your full name your address and let us know what we need to hear starting now okay seeing no one we will close that portion of the agenda tonight and on to our public hearing so with public hearings like this one uh the typical process is uh an applicant or development team is proposes something officially formally to the city submitting an application to do so staff puts together a report based off of a variety of findings how it complies how it may not uh with our current laws staff prepares this presentation for us we exchange some questions answers then we open it to the applicant team to do the same if they' have their own presentation and have another exchange and then after that we open it to a public hearing which is your chance to testify about the matter after which we close that and we deliberate as a Planning Commission and make a recommendation for approval or denial so without further Ado Carrie take it away thank you m of commission okay is that better yeah that's better uh guided office residential and it is uh zoned md5 our mixed development District here's a look at the existing site so it's the existing uh Marriott residents in connected to Edinburgh Park it's about a little over 3 and A2 acres in size so the proposal is to remodel the existing building um it's 133 units into 136 uh Apartments so there'll be no changes to the exterior of the building it would all be remodeling within just a few more pictures of the project Again part of the Edinburgh project development look at the existing site plan again no changes to the the the parking field in front the applicant is proposing to um add additional Landscaping along the the street out front our city Foresters reviewed those and found those to be acceptable so the request before the Planning Commission is a site plan review and that's due to the fact that it's a change in use and this requires a little more parking than a hotel would there's also a variance requested within our zoning code we require one enclosed parking stall for each unit this was developed as a hotel so there's no existing uh enclosed parking on the site so the variance is uh to have zero enclosed parking stalls looking at our pyramid of discretion we're up here with the site plan um the site plan review this is a Apartments multi-residential is a permitted use in the district but you do have some discretion with the requested variants so looking at the site plan again all the the building it's existing no changes to the footprint um it's all code compliant generally with the exception of the east side because it's connected to Edinburgh park again this was a a master development plan um the uh height overlay District allows allows um not 128 stories 12 stories apologize for the typo there and this project is well within that at seven stories and 66 Feet Again the variance is for uh no enclosed parking the density here is 39 units per acre just looking at this site within the overall Edinburgh project it's about 11 units an acre so the primary issue is the variance for um for the enclosed parking Justified looking at our variance criteria um the variance would be in harmony with the general purpose and intent of the ordinance consistent with the comprehensive plan and then meet meet our practical difficulty uh three-prong test um the owner would propose to use the property in a reasonable manner not permitted by the the zoning ordinance it's due to circumstances that are unique to the property not created by the land owner and wouldn't alter the essential character of The District so staff does believe that the variance criteria is met again it's just a change of a use uh within the building no enclosed parking on the site um currently the variance wouldn't alter the character of The District that that surface parking lot would continue with that beefed up Landscaping out front the intent of the regulation is to provide adequate and safe on uh off street parking the that is code compliant one thing I didn't point out I'm going to go back um so there's 180 uh 185 parking stalls on this site by code they need 170 within all of Centennial Lakes the Edinburgh project there were easements established over the parking areas for Access for the public to use the park so there is an existing ease M over this area here if somebody wants to go and use Edinburgh Park they can park there there's no change proposed to that easement um the parking here would be on a first come first serve basis no assigned parking um parking study was done and they figured they need about a 100 parking stalls our code requires 170 so again it is um there will be adequate parking um having apartments with no enclosed parking is not uncommon Anya Yorktown Continental Sunrise Senior summer uh Summit Point the Heritage Walker Elder Suites and most recently 66 West excuse me are examples most of those are senior projects with the exception of the Yorktown Continental um the use again is permitted um ssts Traffic Solutions conducted a traffic study and this um Apartments generate about half the number of trips um compared to comparing a hotel to residential so there'll be no impact to to the traffic so with that I will stop there staff is recommending approval of the site plan and the requested variances that are variance subject to the findings and conditions in the staff report and the applicant is here as well to make a presentation thank you g any questions just um on the point of other apartments not having enclosed parking how did that come to be would they were they established before the ordinance yeah that I don't know they're those are quite um those are a lot of those with the exception of 66 West um predated me so I don't know the detail there with 66 West that that's a very small apartment on on 66 Street that was a conversion of a TCF Bank building and that's an affordable housing project um so no enclosed parking was was required as part of that project okay and when we say the I was curious about the objective of the ordinance and I think the the notes say available in safe parking is it safe in terms of exposure to weather and ice and and what not I mean I'm trying to understand why we had that ordinance in the first place what what we were think the real intent is to provide adequate parking for the users of the hotel um kind of subjective whether a surface parking lot is considered safe or not compared to enclos parking maybe with a security access a little a little safer uh the option here would be to um construct detach garages in that parking area then they would meet code that would be the alternative so in terms of safety generally the same parking is going to be detached from the building either way okay so if it's an apartment it needs to be enclosed but if it's a hotel it doesn't need to be enclosed is that the correct coordinates okay all right that's all thank you Smith uh just a quick question along those same lines just to differentiate is it right to assume that enclosed parking means that it's four walls and a roof kind of sealing your vehicle within that space But covered parking if there was just something above it to prevent like for snow and a ice that's not really considered enclosed right that's just covered right yep I would yeah it would have to be a a garage or even a parking ramp really wouldn't qualify as enclosed parking okay thank you commissioner pH I'll follow along with the parking um theme for a second and another issue for safe parking is there going to be any kind of low-level lighting maybe not tall lighting but lowle Lighting in the parking for safy being able to see the walk at night yeah it might be a question for the applicant they would be required to meet our parking standards lighting requirements for parking lots I would assume the site meets those today but maybe I shouldn't assume so two more questions for you are there any other facilities on here that have reciprocal agreements with the Edinburgh park for parking just curiosity really yeah I haven't run across a development when I've looked at all these sites that doesn't have the those all of Centennial Lakes the office building on the other side of the park has those those same easements so it was pretty it was pretty much negotiated into both Edinburgh and sentenia lakes okay and then the sidewalk is entirely on uh the easement yeah either within the right of way or on the subject property looks like it is in the right of way okay and that stays that stays okay thank you can you can you I saw some discussion of affordability in the materials you can you just go over that a little bit with us what is the affordable component to the project is it aspiration is it required it's not required it's just something they're electing to do that the units would be 60% Ami or below but it wouldn't be a requirement this is really from regulatory perspective it's um we're just looking at the the units themselves just residential apartment units I thought it was 80% but maybe I okay all right there's a there's a mix some of it 60 some of it's 80 okay but Ju Just to build on that a little bit I think Carrie is kind of mentioning that it's that's more coincidental than you know prescriptive or decisive in this case it just happens to be that the rents that the applicant is intending to charge happen to be at 60% or qualify for 60% or 80% okay I I thought I saw something and maybe I was trying to connect it in some way to the variance request but I thought some I saw something to the effect of well you know the cost would go up if you had to build an enclosed structure and that might yeah I compromise the ability to charge certain rents and you know I was just trying to figure out whether there was a connection or not so that's kind I could respond I did put that information in there I didn't include it in the findings because it's not really a finding for the variants it was just more putting it out there as a um a fact of the project but not a not a finding for the variance it'd be a practical difficulty right yeah uh commissioner Padia there was discussion um in the paperwork that we got about uh the park um wanting to make sure everything was in agreement but I I thought it was a little bit nebulous so I'm looking for clarification on whether or not um the park will be changing its hours extending its hours or anything like that to accommodate the fact that um this would be a residence and not a hotel any longer yeah there's existing agreements um you know in regards to the parking spaces and fees and access to the park those would all remain in place it wouldn't impact the operation of the park itself there would be no so they wouldn't extend their hours or anything like that there'd be no change basically okay thanks so to uh go back to affordability and parking um so in terms of affordability there since this is not required um something could come up during conversion where things get more expensive and they would have to charge like slightly above that or whatever maybe a lot more than that they could sell it at any point and the new owner could decide to make it luxury housing or market rate housing or whatever right so so none of that is is required in any way that's correct okay and then in terms of um parking you know the the staff findings mentioned you know safe and and you know enough parking um but really between the Southdale guidelines and the way the city had been well until recently had been promoting uh mixed use developments um with parking underneath a large part of that was you know land use right I mean we want to use best most efficient use of our land since we have no place left to expand um and large surface parking lots are really not part of something that we're trying to do um as a city so um so really so you know one thing we could require would that they would build H we could deny that and then they would be required to build some sort of piking structure correct okay um or we could give them a variance and some other thing whatever okay um okay thank you any other questions for Carrie M Smith just want to touch on the easements with the edenboro park district or system how does the maintenance of this space operate like who does what when if it's winter does the park just just you know clear out part of the lot and the owner of the property takes on the other side like just talk to me about the maintenance and how does that shared yeah the city does all the maintenance inside the park but in terms of the parking lot they would be responsible to to keep that plowed with the easement just allows people to park there gotcha thanks questions all right thank you Carrie uh give an opportunity to the applicant team to come forward please introduce yourselves where you're from and tell us a little bit about what we're seeing here uh good evening Planning Commission that's uh my pleasure to present this project to all of you my name is Patrick jutton and my partner here is Abe Roberts and um we um uh in getting into this project kind of looked at it as an opportunity to um really come into uh a hole in the I rental marketplace where there is a lot of affordable options naturally occurring most projects you see that are coming down the pipeline um will throw a component of affordable in and they'll ask for Tiff financing or they'll um 100% require on financing that's several layers of local state and federal and then take many years to come to Fric because you're in line for some of those funding pools so we looked at this and kind of got excited about it because like the the um uh units are such that um they they work well for uh Apartments being Extended Stay so they already have kitchens in them and bathrooms and for the most part meet most of the current code there would be some slight retrofit issues um nothing significant and um the way the buildings laid out with the adjacent Edinburgh properties the bdale senior living and the and the uh uh Edinboro Office Park uh it's kind of a just a nice harmonious fit from the outside so you don't need we felt any really changes there it it stands well on its own um so when we looked at and said well we can do affordable we don't we don't need to come in and ask for Tiff financing for the city it's it seems like it's it's really a nice Fit For What the community could use um we um were also kind of a excited to find out what that traffic impact was going to be less as Apartments versus a hotel um and um also um you know felt that um you know whether we had to do uh covered parking or didn't do covered parking that the project um was still something we we were committed to doing but when we got into the details of the parking issue um kind of and iterations with with carry and whatnot looking at ourselves to do single covered parking fully enclosed doesn't really fit on the the way the site's currently laid out it's it's you can't do turning radiuses and whatnot for structural supporting elements of a of a garage it also kind of looks a little bit wonky when you got a bunch of garages in front of a hotel or apartment building for its future use and then um we also looked at um you know the possibility that the discussion went to the ramp a ramp option and and again it adds a a lot of cost to do a parking ramp it doesn't seem to add any additional benefit from what's currently been there for the past 35 years um giving that the parking is sufficient to meet the need of a hotel or an apartment building um and uh so we just kind of felt that for the project to really get the the biggest um impact as a naturally affordable project so again it's not a coveted project where we're looking at just the rates we charge would be naturally affordable and um the question was most would be 60% Ami 92 units and then 44 units would be at the 80% level or below so the whole Project's 80% but a great portions 44% so excuse me 60% so um you know we we felt that it IT addresses a a big need in the 2030 plan that the city has um and and certainly in the Twin Cities metro there's uh a lack of of projects you can deliver quickly without having to ask for supporting money from the municipalities or the state or the federal government to to get a project that uh most people need right now there just a big hole in the housing market for this type of project so that's how we're excited about it um and I know you had some questions about easements and whatnots all the easements and Covenants stay in place uh maintenance m is maintained by us of surfaces walks uh um the parking lot we maintain the green spaces um where there's an exception um where there's an Green Space on the north side of the property where you'll see in your paper where there's a a a road that comes in and there that goes over what's part of with a park site it's detailed as lot four and then comes into our building and that's a service drive that gets used for trash and currently linen deliveries and whatnot food deliveries for the for the breakfast concessions that are currently done um so that's a one spot where you do see a a uh I believe it's a shared plowing agreement um but the whole parking lot fac surface area is plowed by currently the hotel would be continue to be plowed by us and maintained by us seal coating striping all that uh uh wear and tear items and then to address the lighting uh there's ball lighting on all the sidewalks on the the park side and then the front of the hotel those walks and those were just updated two years ago uh by the current ownership and then there's overhead um canopy or goose neck type Lighting on on poles throughout the parking lot and that all stay in place in our proposal so no changes there um so that's that's my um little couple minutes about the project and then any questions that that uh you would have for me or for my partner i' be happy to answer for you well thank you very much for uh your presentation and the application commend your creativity and your practical Outlook to make something like this happen any questions comments yeah uh in the traffic study you mentioned the proximity of existing and proposed bicycle facilities how that impacts your site um do you plan on you know increasing the amount of bicycle facilities currently on your property or none on the property that's proba my next point was that a lot of bicycle riders or hotels these days um so we've added and on the most current iteration that um Kieran and I went through and I don't know if it's in your packets I'm assuming it is there is uh approximately 12 biking Bike 12 spaces for a bike rack on the exterior on the North side where there's a um uh currently a patio so we'd build off that patio and they had a dozen parking spaces for bikes that could be pitched up to like a loop style uh rack okay okay any consideration for ebikes as well like in terms of the additional space that they might need or anything like that I don't know that much about ebikes I got to admit so in terms of like charging or and no I mean just sometimes I mean it's a tighter fits if some of them are bigger framed and stuff like that I just want or cover facility or anything like that either yeah to newer rack designs that don't don't put them so tight maybe have a bigger we've got room to put a bigger Longer rack but yeah yeah commissioner Pia thank you for your presentation um couple of different directions I want to go in here um Carrie mentioned that um you were going to do some remodeling within um so just in terms of the the site plan aspect of this could you go into that a little a little bit within the building envelope itself um so we'd be adding three units uh to the current count of 133 originally there were 142 units when this was built in 1990 as a Hawthorne suits um and then in 2012 there was a large remodel done that Marriott requested of the ownership to keep the franchise and they ended up reducing the countdown to 133 units what they did is they combined two stacks of one-bedroom units and made those two bedrooms um so they lost seven units in their unit count and then there's a unit that currently is being used to store Hotel Sundries and mattresses that was never remodeled when they did 2012 remodel that would be one of the three units for adding back into the the account and then there was a fitness room that was created in 2012 that broke out two units um that we bring back as the two units two one-bedroom units so in inside the units you're not going to make any changes you're just bringing a couple more we would we changes like we've got to by code issues we would have to widen doorways in some units till we got 32 in clear um that's that's an ada8 requirement according to the 2020 code that's in place um that I've talked about with the building department um from the 2012 update we would not see a whole lot of changes other than probably some modifications to Closet locations increased closet space kitchens are tight and some where they've got small two burer um cook tops that we'd like to convert to a true range uh still and there's no laundry facilities in there currently is on the first floor there currently is on the first floor but not in the rooms just down the hall no there's not in the rooms and that's that will remain the same we are exploring adding that but um it's tough to do uh because of the stacking and the venting and trying to get it all to line up right and then get it out to your main sewer line so you're anticipating that there will be one laundry room in it we would likely put one where there's service closet is on each floor uh to add one to each floor and then have the a larger one on the first floor and the only rooms um that have ovens um are the two bedrooms which there's only one on each floor I believe some of the one-bedrooms do as well have have a range in them that we've seen they have a range not an oven that's that's an oven stove combo oh okay I was told that it was only the two bedrooms okay um well ones we toured some of one bedroom did but my our plan would be to go to like a smaller 24 in instead of a full 30 in range in those kitchen units that don't have them and who's going to manage um who's going to manage the apartment building so post post uh during the uh construction whatnot I've got a uh real estate brokerage firm called top seal realy company top sale yes and um my partner and I have other projects in Minneapolis and we've done in St Louis Park where we've uh all naturally affordable where we've managed those as well and so um we've had a good run with attracting good tenants and uh operating those as apartment buildings um there's there's discussion um in the information about uh the value of other projects but not the location so you just mentioned St Louis Park where some of of your other projects uh we currently have one in on Pillsbury Avenue in Minneapolis 5924 Pillsbury and then prior ones in St Louis Park on Pennsylvania Avenue uh 1349 and 1357 Pennsylvania Avenue um one that's been sold on Idaho Avenue in St Louis Park um so all those were ones were rehabs were done and then released and properties you're not planning on doing anything to the uh outside of the building at all no no so what you see right now is what you'd see as you drive by it with the exception of landscape screening uh increased around the parking lot permitter and I see that you had experience in REO so you're used to dealing with um I've dealt with some tough properties yeah this is not a tough property right um and you're not adding any amenities to the the building the building amenity structure will be slightly modified we don't need a commercial kitchen anymore we don't need a commercial laundry room anymore so and in a situation like that we could see laundry going to a storage location a commercial kitchen potentially repurposed into a a more usable demonstration kitchen with residential grade appliances or um incorpora into the lobby area as um like we plan for the office current office spaces to be more coldworking spaces for tenants to be able to use who want to work remotely and get out of their unit um so we reconfigure some of the space but in terms of way the amenities are laid out uh for the most part they're pretty consistent with how you'd see it after the work and how far would you say the closest bus stop is uh the traffic for calls that out we've got one on airor way in Minnesota I believe and then there's one on the York side I have to look in the report that is I think stops just at the office Park thanks very much you're welcome commissioner Smith thank you for the presentation um I'll hopefully I won't take up too much time here uh just talking on the parking uh what's the occupancy rate today of the hotel to it's going down because of the cold weather um but I mean averages I think it's in the low 70 range it's it's it's commensurate with the pure hotels around the bulington strip and once you guys are done with the upgrades and converting it into Apartments what would you anticipate the occupany the occupancy rate to be we expect to see it in the 94 95% occupied range okay the parking study that was done was that based on just current traffic movement or kind of projected traffic movement post development my so I'm not a perking study expert but also I spoke with a consultant about this I believe she can speak she is online she's on the zoom so she can she can pipe in so she's going to know the methodology a lot better than me um but they look at the use um of Hotel use versus apartment use so it's their methodology and studies that determine the car count uh use traffic in out of the site um so the hotel right now is very busy on Monday Tuesday Thursday nights as an Extended Stay it's not as busy on the weekends that you would expect say with a non-extended stay so it really serves more what business clientele but 60% of their business is Corporate and business clients not as much Leisure gotcha I guess where I was going there was trying to figure out if the reduction in traffic is based off of a low occupant occupancy rate rate versus you know a higher occupancy rate once you guys do the work you know just to compare apples apples right like if it's like 70% now and 70% later you could compare those two yeah and that just so in and I'm not a hotel person but and when they when I look at the hotel occupancy that's their annual occupancy rate they give me at 70 so Min stand is they run very high on the weekdays and then it drops off on the weekends so you might only be 50% occupied on the weekends but you want be close to 100% on your week nights okay to their current operation and going back um a little bit on the retrofitting so the appliances that you're going to use right are these like energy efficient appliances the ones that you're going to put in and replace yes yes so uh the current all pleses currently I think we're put in 2012 so they're they're more current than the 1990 versions but but uh yes be gar and it's all electric we don't there's no gas appliances in the units so okay and in terms of the process of construction and timing so let's just say we say yes right and then you guys go off and you start doing the work from once you start the work to once it's ready for occupancy how long would that take and what's the process that you have to go through good question the process we would start the pl the tener PL start with the top floor and work our way down to till we and then work the ground floor amenities at the same time we're working our top floor so Le up will come on the top floor units first um and the first unit should be ready summer 2025 um our plan start date would be it's a little bit floating dat because the hotel's got to wind down um which they're going to need some time to wind down that means offload corporate contracts they might have what Delta or FedEx or whomever the local companies that that place people there on a regular basis and then um they would give us the hotel shut down and then we'd be able to start the construction so we're thinking they to start around February or March time frame just a few more and then I could pass it off to my fellow Commissioners here um just thinking through the parking lot itself and safety right so with a covered enclosed parking lot typically there's you know a badge of some kind that you have to maybe put on your car having your key to access the space there's going to be security cameras right talk to us a little bit more about any kind of safety features that residents would need to have so like for example we we'll be sharing this lot with the Edinboro Park system and so would you have residents come through that you know with some kind of tag on your vehicle let's just say that they hang up in your car that you know you won't get told cuz you live here but the guys who move in here from the park because of an event they would most likely get to if it's beond a certain time frame so talk about that talk about cameras security and how that would be managed just share more about the security aspects of the space and I I don't I can't speak to what's on the Edinburgh park side or the the Brookdale part of the security because we do share property boundaries with them but right now I know that there's a security system within the building of cameras on all floors and hallways and and the common um uh uh hotel lobby um typically on all my other properties I like to put them around the parking lot um whether be case is like I mean it's just normal life and and in parking lots these days you get people that are coming jiggling door handles and might do a a theft and it helps to see uh who that might be if it's someone from your building or whatnot um the have's both unclosed and enclosed structures it's not unique to just having a surface parking lot um in terms of um maintenance um I think I think cameras probably I think probably the biggest thing the lighting is sufficient if you're drive by the say right now you see it's it's well lit that's not a problem um there's no cameras on the parking lot currently but I can speak to my other projects I always put cameras on the parking lots usually kind of around the Four Corners you at different angles and on the entrances so you can cars coming in and going um I give an add Security in terms of who can park there I think it kind of got to see how that goes because with the 85 spots allocated to the Edinburgh youth from their their wck hours um that's a bit of a a information process we're going have to give to tenants that this is public use as well historically hasn't been used a lot seems like more people use the office side entry because that's the the main entry that's marked um at direct Rec Center um but um we're more than happy to you know create a way that a use can cohabitate it's it's worked as a hotel is never seem to be a problem you know with apartment use most people are working during the day you know it's kind of been historically how it's been they're coming in the evening with the park site I think the hours are usually 7 to 7 so probably that 5 to six time could be will receive problems and um if we would need to do a designation like a stick or a hang take something like that it's a simple simple fix but starting off I kind of like to see kind of how our things are going to flow and once we get higher occupany rate then we'll see how the use pattern fits in with the park use again for 35 years or hasn't been and talking any dinina neighbors and whatnot who who know the S you used a site and I've used a site myself as a parent with kids over the years um I actually never knew you could actually Park on this side uh till till we got in contract to purchase the building so I maybe some of you are finding that out for the first time too as well so now everybody knows there's parking there um but uh like I said it seems like there's plenty of parking between what's going to Brookdale what's going to the office and here for the the user base especially in the winter time gets heavy and the hotel said they've never had a problem even when they're running 100% acacy with the parking use uh as it's run historically and the colon owners have owned it col ownerships owned it since 2001 so they've had a good history um of use of this property okay yeah I think that'll be important to observe monitor really carefully absolutely I agree with you um last question here for now uh if I would to get a an apartment would I have to pay for a parking spot or is it included in my our PL includeing rent okay so so so what you pay for rent has parking with it could I not have parking and pay less rent I I didn't contemplate charging for parking so it just be parking's offered on a first come first Ser basis okay thank you we could do a sign parking and need that but I I'd rather do first come first serve than manage the assigned parking okay thank you makes my life easier commissioner felt I'm going to go back to some of the building um ch changes you are taking off all of the signage correct yes the marott signage the building would be renamed it won't be no longer called resents in I don't know what that name will be at this point okay okay and then there won't be any signage on the building except for we probably the buildings right now I think there's like two signage Windows there's the signage facing Centennial Lakes on the West Side kind of where the green triangular Tower is on that west side and then there's a sign on the poter sh a canopies as you come in and then there's a a sign I think on the front of the hotel that faces 494 faces 78th Street and there's a monument sign on each entry on en burway and on 78th that's backlit that's that's the current signage okay and I think like the monument signs and the canopy signs but I think if there's any building signs they need their own permit they need a building permit okay so you be separate process okay um and and then I was going to um jump on the oh I I used to park on the other side too with my daughter when I took go to the park so I agree with you I never knew that there were 85 stalls in this so it was it was a it was a well-kept secret um and and I do have a lot of friends that kind of um seniors that swim in the winter and um I think parents with kids go there on the weekend in the winter so those win quite busy at the park yeah yeah yeah your busy times um and so you're thinking of starting in February and it'll be a year to um do the construction I think about 12 15 months and probably about 18 months to get it full leased up okay that's what our projection is once we start and then you're planning on keeping the building yeah we own it for quite some time okay yeah well a stable ownership okay thank you yeah you're welcome any other questions yes one more sure sorry since Katie is online maybe she can give a little synopsis about what she found um in terms of parking for the hotel versus what you found for parking for the apartments um hi are sure Ken can everybody hear me we can Ken hi I am Katie Schmidt with ssts and we prepared um the traffic and parking memo that was included in um the package for this project um so to briefly touch on the traffic question that came up earlier um on how we estimated traffic for the existing hotel and for the proposed apartment uses we used we use an industry current manual called um trip generation manual and it's published by The Institute of Transportation Engineers so it's an industry current kind of uh manual that Traffic Engineers cities counties use to kind of determine traffic numbers for planning for different types of land uses and it's a national survey of um apartments and a national survey of hotels and they document the traffic rates for each of them so we used those numbers and I would assume it's average capacity for both land uses uh so I don't know if capacity it didn't really come in we didn't assume 100% or 50% we just use these national average rates and that is where we came up with the traffic numbers for each of the uses and the proposed Hotel generates less traffic I me I'm sorry back up the proposed Apartments generate less traffic than the existing hotel and we did not apply any additional reductions to that um given Transit given sidewalks given walkability and bicycle paths and I would expect there could be a little bit of a reduction we could apply to the apartment uses in addition but we didn't take it to the next step because it was already less so that is a quick summary of how we got those traffic numbers for the existing and proposed uses thank you any yeah any questions on that no thank you very much thank you and then kind of similar moving on to the parking calculations we considered um two sources the First Source was Edina City code and the minimum parking we got from that is 170 spaces and that's from um a parking rate of 1.25 spaces per unit and then similar to the traffic um The Institute of Transportation Engineers publishes a parking demand kind of manual where they they um document parking for similar land uses so we got our other um it estimate from that manual and we were estimating with our uses and breakdown of one bedroom and two bedroom units we were estimating 97 parking spaces would would uh fulfill the the uh need for this development so that is where we determined kind of that 100 number that that's been referenced a couple times and and that is roughly you know 1.25 is 136 versus maybe one per apartment is what you're assuming the nand was you said 97 a little less than one per apartment correct and that kind of it deals with a little bit more there's the mixture is more one-bedroom apartments versus two bedroom apartments and um the it parking generation manual has subcategories for bedrooms so we kind of got more detailed within the estimates there and that kind of brought it down a little bit to the 97 thank you thank you very much commission Miranda yeah so speaking to parking still if you're still on the line um well I don't know if the owners or or you could answer the the existing um apartments that you own which sound like they're relatively affordable um do you find the similar amounts of parking required to what you're to what the it or whatever is is requesting I I'll speak that bedroom count makes a big difference in what I see for parking from Project to project I'll get when I got more two bedrooms I need more parking spots versus one bedrooms I mean that's just we get two drivers right but but do you see um you know one spot per per two-bedroom per one-bedroom unit basically is is what turns out people end up using typically in what I've seen in the most in in the the urban area Minneapolis St Paul and then first rank suburbs is usually a one:1 ratio yeah minneapol has now done away with parking completely on all new projects which I'm not sure how that works but um people some people still drive cars so right um in any case um I haven't had any issues with not having enough parking spaces on one: one um in any of those locations and are either those locations near transit or on a Transit line or anything uh yeah I I'm right on Nicollet and Lindale and that one location so have the rapid transit buses okay and and those locations um we have a couple of regional lines that run right past the hotel um I know Katie outlined it I was just looking at it while she was talking on yeah there's a few express lines few express lines and I find my experience as as an owner and manager is that people are more prone to use the express lines um to to pick up a ride to work um if they exist by the project that's usually beneficial line versus just the the normal City route lines okay yeah all right that's it for parking and Katie anyone else have any questions for Katie can I continue then you got it okay okay um so if you um how much would if if you didn't get the variants and you had to build parking how much would it cost to build a parking ramp there for the required spaces depends on the the complex of rentas but for 136 bases roughly about three and a half million plus another quarter million for entitlements and engineering and design here approaching four million in cost for a ramp okay and and then um [Music] um if you didn't get the variant would you go ahead with this project I was still go ahead with the project it would it would be a tougher project to hold long term though because with our investor pool and whatnot with the rates of return that they ask for us to deliver for them uh would be compressed and uh um are you open to your investors whatever open to guaranteeing any percentage of these units remaining affordable in order to get the variance I'm open to discussion if if it came down to you know it came down to that yeah okay okay um and then let's see okay we talked about that okay thank you any other questions thank you all right thank you Commissioners all right uh this is a public hearing so we will enter that period of the meeting so for those tuning in remotely uh you can jump in the queue and then we'll uh we'll jump right to the people who are here in person but for those tuning in uh to participate please call the following number 312 535 8110 enter access code 2632 554 0716 and the password is 5454 and then when you'd like to speak press star three on your keypad so hopefully this is all on a screen and you can uh just follow that while you do that we will open it up to those who are here in person that would like to testify you have 3 minutes to do so similar to community comment which we had no takers uh just come to either Podium State your full name address and you got three minutes uh when the light turns red your time's up and I'll I'll I'll do this to wrap it up anyone here for okay great good evening chair and Commissioners my name is Steve Steve Brown I live at 5528 Halifax Lane I'm going to urge you this evening to support this proposed conversion this action will result in 136 units of much needed affordable housing in a Dina of these 44 units will be for people who are earning between 60 and 80% of the area median income this is a group that is not reached by our affordable housing policy which requires uh Ami of 60% or below so this is sort of a little hole in our affordable housing policy so this is going to make a major contribution toward our goals set by the Met Council which does include that Gap area between 60 and 80 and I think the applicant and his uh paperwork provided you with the exact numbers and I think Stephanie Hawkinson also provided you the exact numbers uh I think it's worth noting that according to the US cus Bureau 49% of ad's renters are currently cost burdened meaning that they are paying more than 30% of their income for housing so this affordable housing complex may be attractive to some of those folks who feel like they're paying more than they should be paying currently and this could be a very good deal for some folks who are currently a dino residents this is also an excellent location for affordable housing there's easy access to 494 the popular number six bus line has a stop right out in front of this I checked that on the site today so it's an easy access for busing there are grocery stores pharmacies Medical Care a library a government service center and parks that are all easily accessible uh my what my first wish should be that the affordable uh affordability period be set as a condition for approving the variance of Park on parking so if they would agree to a 20year period or a 15-year period as a condition that would be terrific my second wish would be there be more units for families in this residence it's not only a great location for all the reasons listed above but there's that wonderful indoor park that I think uh commissioner felt referenced it's a a terrific place for kids and if you had a family be just an ideal setting I do also want to mention that the 80% Ami currently translates to $99,000 in income so that's sarly middle class it includes all the teachers uh or most of the teachers should say all it depends on your level of experience but teachers certainly qualify at that income level medical condition uh technicians also qualify and of course there are a lot of seniors who would fall uh below that 999,000 income level so this is going to be a very attractive complex for a number of uh both Workforce members and also seniors so again I urge you to support this conversion thank you very much thank you do we have anyone else who is here in person that would yeah come forward uh you got it good evening my name is Leo Silva and I live in Edinburgh Condominiums right next to the Merit Hotel I'm here today to say that I'm opposed to converting our local hotel into an apartment because I don't believe Apartments genuinely offer affordable housing the core issue with Apartments is they promote renting over ownership renting unlike owning does not build equity or offer a pathway to financial stability over time homeowners could see their Investments appreciated while renters would just be stuck with an never increasing cost of renting that will prevent them from ever saving enough money for a down payment sorry my first speech I think this decision would just be subsidizing the profits of a faceless Investment Group at the cost of our residents they might try to convince you that rent prices are fair but as someone who volunteers at food banks I can tell you that around 80% of the people we help live in affordable apartments that they can can barely afford they might try to convince you that the sem Landscaping is enough to ignore Sony codes that provide proper and closed parking spaces that protect residents vehicles from snow and theft in order to save some money they might try to convince you that residents will use public transit more just so they don't have to provide extra parking for families that share units they might try to convince you that construction won't require City or federal subsidies but who will guarantee that they won't need or use them later down the road perhaps I'm being too cynical sorry but I've tried doing as much research as possible in order to see the quality of this work but I couldn't find anything at all and the way this project was proposed to me just seems like he's just trying to make a quick profit maybe I'm wrong maybe they are a good company that we should cooperate with but there's just no way for me to find out regardless what I'm trying to say is that instead of affordable housing we need to explore policies that instead support housing affordability these terms sound the same but they're very different what I'm proposing instead is the construction of cost Condominiums like where I currently live in by prioritizing ownership we're not just providing a genuine place for people to call home we're offering a chance for economic growth where residents can spend their money on local businesses instead of just housing so let's not just build for-profit apartments that take advantage of government subsidies let's build Futures thank you for your consideration thank you for considering my perspective thank you very much anyone else please come forward my name is Elizabeth Toms and I live at Brookdale Senior Living we have three levels of um care memory care which they um used the building limitedly Assisted Living which is um about three these are three floors in our 18 story building and um Independent Living I live an independent living and when we heard about um the issue of these apartments at first I thought it was a good idea but um we were all talking over dinner and um we think that the buildings all three the park our building and the hotel are all even the office building on our side by York they're all connected the only thing that keeps you know you have to lock it to keep it and our senior living has a complete balcony that faces the um child uh garden and um we've had a lot of people who come up and they want to use the bathroom well you know it's a little child that needs help but um we're very concerned about the security of this situation for children and seniors um we have a CLE CED parking lot in the basement of our building and even having our cars down there there have been issues people sneak in when the doors are you know getting closed and uh there was one guy who was using the hotel and when uh someone was asked to identify who had been um in their apartment he had a different jacket on cuz he had clo a bag of clothes with him so it was you know it's if you're going to do something naughty there's a way to do it but um we think that um it's kind of an iffy situation and they need to address the fact that there are just a a lock between the security and all these buildings thank you thank you very much do we have anyone else here in person that'd like to testify all right see none uh we'll go to the virtual queue uh has anyone called in no we do not have anyone in the virtual queue and then I just want to give a reminder I'm going to need um just your addresses to for the record um if possible thank you do you want them to find you later yeah okay well since it's been well over a minute uh that we open the virtual queue I think we're safe to close a public hearing so I'd welcome a motion to do so motion to close the public hearing second all those in favor say I I I so move public hearing is closed I take it back to the Planning Commission to deliberate uh any further questions or comments in regards to some of the comments we heard m h apologies in advance for my voice I'm going to do the best I can and try to be short um I am deeply sympathetic about the idea that we are not building equity in congregate living environments um state laws are a big problem clawback and warranty problems um and the finance has made it unfinancial un financially suitable um and insurance providers are basically pulled out of the market so I I agree with you we need more condos but in this environment and for the last handful or so of years they're just isn't the appetite in the development world I think this project is a great adaptive reuse I'm bummed I didn't think of it myself it's I think it is um in line with our climate action goals it is providing that naturally occurring affordable housing that we deeply need um I Echo Mr Brown's comments it would be great if we could have larger units uh or multi-bedroom units and capitalize on that uh connectiveness to the nbor park um I guess I would challenge the developer I um there is a lot of seniors coming who need affordable housing but I think just that location from the family perspective there's a unique opportunity there um what's before the Planning Commission is really to understand if we can Gra of variance if we don't like their business model if we don't like the clientele or the pricing we're allowed to have those opinions and you can vote at the ballot on Tuesday everybody vote um but in in my mind the point of the ordinance for covered parking was to create Safety and Security um I don't know why this project uh would be any different um in terms of how we think of it if it was affordable or market rate do we think having open air parking is not safe for a person living in our city lots of people have open air parking I enthusiastically support this and um thank you and I commend you for figuring out a way to make that affordable housing without using any government financing City financing you're not asking for any subsidies of any kind you uh you found a unicorn property and you're going to do something great with it um I would hope and I'll throw my voice in that city council encourages you guys to um really make sure you have a thoughtful security plan because of the connectivity to public amenities in that Edinburgh Park and um encourages some sort of signing that makes it clear when you are at 100% occupancy that there are you know Monday through Friday 9: to 5 whatever the hours are these spaces are reserved for um users of the park I want to make sure that's available but that's not my purview I'll just just um suggest that personally to city council but uh thank you very much for coming tonight let's go down the row go down the line um um I agree with commissioner Hamman you had touched on it the the request for um before us is just about a parking variance we have very little to do with the building itself it's already allowed to be used as a residence um so that part we have very little say over um in terms of the variance for the parking I am fine with um the surface parking and I actually appreciate you know the additional um 3 and a half million uh 4 million with soft cost to kind of build a ramp um not having to do that will keep these rents lower um and I would probably I have been in that Lobby because my cousins used to stay there because they loved having the two rooms and um I would go down and sit with them sometimes there and it was always lovely and they were lovely people and they're homeowners and this was their kind of home away from home when they would visit people here so um I always thought the clientele there was um you know pretty good people for the most part and I also think that um people who' be living here day in and day out you will be um vetting them you will makeing sure that they have their source of income they will be making between 75 and 95,000 a year um and they will be um neighbors and they will be um users of the park and citizens of a Dina um and so I think all of that all of those things are good things and I'm in support of it too I really don't have a whole lot to add Beyond what's been said except I'd be interested in the rest of the commissioner's views about whether there's a way to um increase the chances of the rent staying affordable the a point of um one of the reasons they Grant the variance is you avoid the need to SN $4 million into building a structure for parking and and that helps keep the the rents affordable and that helps the city achieve its goals is there a way to to to lock that in a little bit more part of an approval basically same thing he just said and I think the variance is reasonable um but yeah I'd like to have that discussion as well that's pretty much it for me y I agree I think it's it sounds like a great plan and uh I'm for it it sounds it sounds cool I mean you get more families contributing and going seeing public parks and as a student um I mean that's that's great to see um I think there's not enough teens in parks and so I like the idea of attracting new families so yeah I think this is a pretty good project um the fact that there's no federal subsidies I think that's a positive I think we have to maintain that security as was mentioned earlier is going to be really important right because if we're giving up covered enclosed parking which security was a big a aspect of that and if we don't have that now we have to really find other ways to provide security so as I was talking about earlier things like cameras you know Etc right just to make sure that residents who move through and in and out of that space feel very very safe locks where it needs to be Etc um that has to be a part of this and I don't know if this is a question for director faue or not but if we could figure out to make the affordable housing component a condition on approval that's what I think might be the solution and I don't know how you do that but we have to maintain and lock that in because that was The Sweet Spot that got us over the hump right so we want to make sure and maintain that so whatever the investor class is looking at if they could maintain the affordable housing component that would make this uh a very good project but overall the conversion it makes sense I agree with most of what my colleagues have shared so far but we have to make sure that we lock in the affordable housing component and really focus on improving security I think those two things are the important parts for me as far as the variance goes um I am in support of the variance um because I think that um it's kind of a compromise there's there's a lot about this project I feel like is a compromise um having said that as I said I will approve the variance I think the building um is is a little tired looking the whole area is um I would been happier if you had said you were going to do um you know some minor facelift work um um I I wish for the amount of rent that people were paying there was more available or accessible laundry facilities and larger cooking um facilities um you know that's somewhat tempered by the fact that um there is a park next door I'm at that Park very often in the winter time and um there there are concerts there so it does offer a lot but it's my understanding based upon what I read and what um Carrie said that even if people live there and have kids they have to pay for the kids to go into the park or they have to pay the annual um fee um for the kids to go in the park because it's not free um basically for anybody even though I pay um to go to the park um so having said all that I agree that's my only other point I agree with everybody everybody's point about other things that are important so the way I'm looking at this um it's actually pretty complicated um on the one hand you know if you look at this if if you don't consider affordability or anything like that and you're were going to build a brand new apartment building um there's no real practical difficulty here about building a parking ramp I mean they have the space right um so if this were you know market rate or luxury housing or whatever then I think um you know it should be required um because that's what the ordinance says and um but I think the key here is that this you know we're not we're looking at trying to avoid that so the city has you know affordability goal uh the city has climate action goals um in that CA in this case they kind of contradict each other because an open surface parking lot is not really uh good for the city it's not good for the residents it's not good for the uh water at all but obviously people and affordability of housing is is I would say trumps that so so I'm kind of like trying to figure out a way where this is where my questions came from is trying to figure out a way where oh so the the other thing I'm considering here is that you know as wonderful and great people as you are I'm sure um there's a huge amount of consolidation going on in the real estate industry so um I was just randomly looking at henin county maps a few weeks ago and noticed that a few apartment buildings in St Louis Park um I wasn't researching this so I don't have a lot of detail but a few of them were purchased by some real estate Investment Group and then during Co and then after Co if we are after Co um that company was bought out by a Wall Street Bank so um and it turned out that was the most expensive Suburban building apartment building ever sold in the Twin Cities so as wonderful as these investors may be their company may be bought out at some point or or merged or something else so so again I'm hesitant without any kind of guarantee again this is where my questions were leading um it it feels like a giveaway because there's no physical impediment to building the parking um even though it's expensive and I think wasteful but but that's not what the ordinance says so um I think I think we should pass this with uh you know a recommendation to council that they require some sort of guarantee of affordable housing now I don't know that we need 100% affordability or anything like that um but I think some percentage should be required you know I don't know what the regulations are for that but I feel like if we are going to give this then we need to have some sort of you know it's something the city can use as leverage I feel like um to get guaranteed affordability so and it and it could be at this 80% you know it it doesn't need to be 60% or or lower than that so um but I think it behooves the city to do that sort of thing secondly again because an open surface parking lot is not part of the Southdale goals it's not part of our uh land use goals it it it's a kind of a waste of space really um especially when it's going to be overp parked by like 70 spaces um the goal I think would be to have that lot also or part of that lot be redeveloped at some point um and so the city has a we can't require well maybe we could but it doesn't make sense to require like bicycle infrastructure there because the city doesn't have a plan for it in Southdale um it doesn't make sense to require like a transit station there or anything because the six bus is going to be the E Line Which is far north of there and so this part of the six bus I don't know if it's going to continue or not um although there are other uh bus lines that go there so I feel like instead of spending $4 million on parking is there a way we could request the city council say hey give us $100,000 for The Pedestrian cycle fund or give us money for Metro Transit for a Transit shelter or something you know so something where um we get affordability or some AFF ability out of it and we also meet some of our climate action goals while they pay significantly less than $4 million for building parking and so I think that becomes sort of a win-win so that's kind of what I'm thinking and I'd be happy to hear what you guys say about that considering how much time I've spent trash talking surface parking over the years it seems odd to be supporting this project but I am um and I don't need to go through the reasons because others uh including Mr Brown have already mentioned all of the offsetting benefits that this will deliver to current and future Edina residents the the one thing I think I that does bear mentioning is uh related to the comments of a couple Commissioners about wanting to find a a mechanism to guarantee affordability over time I I am empathetic with that desire but I I guess I have a lot of confidence in the market in this case and the resilience of what we're calling naturally occurring affordable housing in my view these units are affordable today because they're quite small in the scheme of things and and um you know there's you know they're going to be nice places to live I'm not um trying to be critical I'm saying they're they're small and they're modest in their amenities they're going to be somewhat limited cooking facilities for example uh plus there's outdoor parking in January so I think I I'm pretty confident that the market is going to keep these comparatively affordable um compared to the other properties the kind that we typically see um in this environment so I I personally don't feel a need for guarantees or additional restrictions or regulations or promises um I think it's going to stay affordable just because the Market's going to demand it until someday it's developed into into something else thanks sure um I mean this is interesting to me we are so used to doing the Pud process and doing a give to get but there is kind of no give to get here and I think you know the variance is just about the parking um there's no variance request for the building at all so I think you know in terms of and and you had mentioned commissioner Miranda the um surface parking and the runoff they are doing a burm you know I think if wanted a variance and make sure that you know any kind of surface drainage was kind of filtered on site before it left um that would seem like a reasonable request for the variant um but I agree with um you David about commissioner Aly about the fact that the surface parking lot in this situation will probably help keep the prices a little lower and that's my gut feeling on this one question for you Carrie if if this were an exceptionally similar project but were condos instead would it still have the same issue right it would whether it's owner occupied or rental so I mean I didn't I didn't think that this personally that this this project could have got better until uh gentleman shared uh testimony about it being a condone I think we lose sight of that and uh it's something to not lose sight of um and commissioner Haman brought up kind of why it's just not able to be done right now but um you'd be in the same situation of um of either requiring parking or not to achieve the same better outcome potentially um but I appreciate that being said because I didn't think this could have got better and I'm like you know If This Were the same thing but condos I I would be more excited you know but I'm I'm still excited about this uh it's it's just something we don't usually see is just being creative with what you already got uh the tendency really is to tear down and start over and um it's it's inherently less wasteful to use what you got um and at least as far as like the future of like Southdale like it it doesn't conform to the those principles but I think it opens up the future it opens the possibilities in the future versus like you know cuz the design principles don't call for building Standalone ramps even though we've seen those proposed too I think if you were if we were forced to build a parking situation now you limit the future of this site for redevelopment um where maybe it could house the parking for the site or something more fluid and I think I'm more interested in seeing how that plays out versus you know forcing the parking um but yeah just just commend the applicant team for it's it's a great creative uh adaptive reuse uh commissioner Pia brought up the laundry and you know just you mentioned everything would be electric so I just figured I'd share a comment but at least with the all-in-one you know heat pump um washer dryer you mentioned just the drains right you just need to find a drain the other benefit that a lot of people don't realize about those especially in a reuse perspective is you don't need to vent which is usually more difficult to find exterior walls and larger duct work to get your venting to those type of uh machines use the Heat and convert it to energy so you don't have to send hot air somewhere else so um if there's a way to make those work or provide more facilities in a modest way or just combine units for families I leave it to you but so far so good I with a variance at hand I support this either way um any other questions or comments people have I know there was some just questions about conditions on affordability has that waned or [Music] gotten more Focus for any of you guys otherwise willing to hear a motion too I mean the only thing about the affordability I mean we can ask the city council I mean we can just say that the city council is there but I don't know about adding a requirement or it just giving the advice that make sense I know commissioner Waring day you had similar sentiment or at least curiosity around it wasn't that kind of the way you were phrasing it as well is recommend that the council consider whether it make sense to add some type of condition that would increase the likelihood of more units staying affordable seems consistent with the so maybe the Market's going to keep them that way anyway um that doesn't seem like it's intention with the idea that be like a ceiling or a cap place to make sure it happens regardless of what happens in the market so um I I I think I would support either type of motion um I don't see the downside and including a recommendation that the council consider if there's a mechanism that's appropriate for maintaining some amount of affability on the site the way to phrase it like that Claire I think you got some I think the problem is if we put a sorry if we put a requirement to make it affordable in the capital a definition of affordable then someone has to income qualify folks and monitor it and it creates an additional level of compliance and burden that ultimately hits the operating budget of the management company which makes operating the building more expensive which means rents have to go up to support that additional cost I would be I I liked commissioner Miranda's thought if if if we feel like we need a give to get perhaps there's a larger Park dedication fee or a um another public amenity that they could help make a contribution to that would enhance the overall community but I think if we try to I mean these are small units these are uh outdoor parking all of the things that everyone said nobody's going to pay top dollar for them that's why they're naturally occurring affordable I think if we add cumbersome requirements that even if they are um aligned with what the market will dictate it just is another example of us creating obstacles for of for development for these kinds of attainable um uh units I would support a recommendation to city council that they consider um expanding the park dedication fee or or perhaps some sort of contribution to Edinburgh Park itself um something along those lines but I would not support a requirement because of um I think it's redundant and unnecessary and does exactly what we don't want to do to make these kinds of things happen commissioner day uh so I wanted to take the the recommendation piece of the you know public benefit part whether it's something at a ro park or whatnot but I kind of fixated on the bike piece the bicycle facility piece here I think that could be a good area of opportunity um to you know if we were going to have a recommendation you know I think more than 12 biking spots if you covered parking so thinking about our parking discussion David right in terms of how do we increase Pike bike and pedestrian facilities in the city um we had our discussion with the transportation committee and a lot of big thing is it would be nice to have covered Park bike parking and more bike parking so maybe some kind of you know trade-off in terms of bike facilities here since the park is right there and' be nice if families could easily feel confident that they could bike there all together and that their bikes wouldn't be stolen cuz that is a big hurdle for a lot of people when they go when they talk about wanting a bike somewhere um I think that's maybe an N year of opportunity here for a give to get or recommendation piece so having been on the Transportation Commission um on a flat surface putting bike facilities in is not terribly expensive and or cumbersome or anything um but what's really missing in the city is you know we just have been going very slowly with our our bike and pedestrian plan because that's just grossly underfunded which is why I suggested rather than just you know nothing then instead of spending $4 million and spending 50 or $100,000 Into The Pedestrian en cyclist fund than at least you know because they're saying they don't need that much parking maybe you know if a lot of these are couples or whatever then one person drives one person bikes to the to the e-line or something right so the problem isn't parking your bike there the problem is getting from there to the e-line right and the the city doesn't have there's a there's some part there's there's some bike facilities in Southdale but there's not a lot and there's certainly nothing North South anywhere near here so um putting that money into the fund would allow the city to build more bike infrastructure so that's kind of where I was going with with that part of the discussion so so I would like to make a motion then that we approve the variance um uh and the message to the I don't know message what do you want to call it to the council is that you know they require a a contri ution to The Pedestrian cyclist fund I'd second that uh we'll leave it for discussion then any discussion we have a motion in a second commissioner SMI yeah this is a question for I guess director Teague just so that I'm clear um the motion that we have before us I know it's a variance for parking but do we have within the Pyramid of discretion right do we have the ability to put a condition on affordability is that possible for us or not yeah so you're taking action on a variance so there has to be a Nexus between what they're requesting for the variance and minimizing impacts that the variance causes so a dedication to the cyclist fund I'm I'm not sure we'll probably need a City attorney opinion on that um adding bicycle parking you know in lie of enclosed parking you know maybe there's a a Nexus there um but that I guess that's the thing that we need to focus on there has to be a connection to minimize impacts on the variance that's being requested okay so that sounds like a no to me um so I guess one question for the applicant if you don't mind um why did you propose that you know some of these units would be affordable at 80% Ami for some of them and 60% Ami for others like what was the reasoning for adding that and making that something that we should be thinking about okay um the reasoning in in part as already brought up by other Commissioners is looking at the size of the units um when we get down to a lot of the one bedrooms were probably around 480 Square ft and um I look at um for example uh competing buildings like Yorktown Continental which is a covenanted affordable building they're roughly 520 Square F feet on their one-bedrooms and that's close enough to be kind of an Apples to Apples comparison and they're around 12280 uh per month on their rents excluding certain utilities they get figured into the calculation so I looked at that and there're about 1,700 for the two bedrooms so that's kind of where I was kind of looking like can we be naturally affordable at those rent ranges with these unit sizes and not have to have uh like commissioner hman pointing out the burn of running all these regulations and compliance programs for affordability that you don't get in a naturally affordable project that's how we came up with the kind of all the break down between the units with the ones and twos and the pricing that we're looking at that that speak to your question well enough yeah yep that makes sense okay I understand how it came to be I guess there's nothing really preventing you and your organization from increasing the rents if you had to right I think we're seeing up here that it's naturally occurring right um but it could go up it could be unaffordable at some point right if the man goes up in that area so that's what I'm just trying to think through but it won't get un it won't become unaffordable because they're a more luxury premium product on the market so this um they give it like a office building right the new shiny office building that gets built it commands the highest rent per square foot because it's got the most amenities it's got the best Windows it's blah blah blah blah blah no matter what they do to this building unless they putting tens of millions of dollars in it at which point some part they'll have to come back for some sort of variance or permit or whatever this is always going to be a kind of tired small apartment building it's going to be one and two bedrooms it's not families it's couples or or maybe small children or retirees or you know widows and widowers they that they're living on more restricted income and they don't want to be the shiny sexy apartment building that's got the Fitness and the pool and the rooftop all like they can't afford that for financial reasons or they don't want to afford that CU it's not a priority to them so I think we you he's referencing Amis which are part of the affordability standards and programs but he's not going to check to see what people can pay if Steve Jobs wants to rent a a one bedroom tiny apartment for that he can but he but he is unlikely to do so because he won't have laundry because he won't have covered parking he just won't all right yeah no I think it makes sense I'm hoping that you know this is a good conversation right to just really understand why um yeah I'm glad you're bringing it up cuz the word affordable is loaded both politically and um very misconstrued because in car common talk right if I want to buy a car that's affordable people know that's not a Maserati but when we talk about housing it can have some regulatory meaning as well as just meaning something my college graduated kid can afford or anybody at any point in the housing Continuum so this this word specifically in this time in this country in this housing crisis has come to be very cumbered with a lot of assumptions so I really love that we're having this opportunity sorry to keep everybody up but thank you for bringing this because I think it's a good it's a good topic how you get things that are affordable lowercase a for people to buy is that you have really brand new shiny pennies and you have old not so shiny pennies and if we burden the the not so shiny pennies with a lot of um obligations that takes away from its ability to be affordable which then reduces that Continuum and that that Supply so yeah we're still discussing your motion I think yeah i' like to add to that discussion so uh you know part of my concern is you know I talked about consolidation in the industry and whatnot so uh Minnesota housing.gov has a 14-page PDF entitled the loss of naturally occurring affordable housing um and it mentions that 2,300 units are lost annually of affordable housing and so um and it goes into a lot more detail of course so so that's part of my concern is that you know I'm not questioning the morals or the business sense of these men here um but just that things change in the future and do we want to you know why are we giving this variance what is the purpose of this of us giving this variance to yeah allow it to change from hotel to a place where someone to live I know literally what it is right it's like are we doing it I mean is there a structural reason I'd argue there's no reason to give this variant right there's plenty of land for them to build there there's no difficulty for the business a monetary difficulty is not a difficulty right right so the Practical difficulty test or standards changed a few years ago it's it's the three um there are practical difficulties in complying with the ordinance the term practical difficulty means the following and I'll go through it uh the property owner proposes to use the property in a reasonable manner not permitted by the zoning ordinance the plight of the landowner is due to C circumstances unique to the property not created by the landowner and the third is it will not alter the essential character of of the locality so it was staff's opinion that those three are satisfied and not requiring the construction of the garages and wouldn't the deck if they came forward and they'd built a deck on the parking lot our very first comment would be well that's not part of the Southdale guidelines because we don't have pedestrian friendly spaces and parking decks are ugly and and it would change the character of the lot so I would argue in this CA I mean then we would be forcing a different project right then the developer would have to figure out a revenue stream that would support that 4 million and then we've got a tower with retail and more apartment I mean like it all everything costs so then it builds to I mean to me if they even they were magically going to make it a luxury building and needed nothing from us but this variance I think the variance holds in my mind so there was a motion in a second um maybe B based on some feedback from commissioner Smith's question to carrye maybe it's not a condition I know you said it wasn't necessarily a condition you're just a like a recommendation so I mean that's something that we could leave to the council between now and then and then City attorney can weigh in but I think more or less there is probably some shared favor of that there's no further discussion we could do a roll call vote unless someone wants to yeah can you read the motion again or say it again do we have I don't remember you got you made it uh a recommendation a recommendation I know right uh a recommendation to council that they uh require a contribution to the pestan cyclist Fund in or for this variance yeah but I guess just a quick question right so we could vote to approve what we have but the recommendation is not binding right so it's just saying a recommendation we could also as a recommendation with city council to think about I don't know how to make this affordable right again a recommendation not a binding resolution of of some kind so do we just say we approve the variance and then we say we have a few recommendations is that how it normally goes but I'm not sure if the motion has to include the recommendation in it is what I'm saying you could make a recommendation to include the 11 conditions outlined in the staff report and then an additional outside of those 11 conditions that the council consider um contribution to the cyclist fund are you asking because you'd be interested to add an affordability requirement is that what you getting toward that's still Weighing on me a little bit okay um you know to lose point right uh if we stuck to the code we would require that there was some kind of parking ramp or some kind of covered parking that would go here right but we all feel good that that's going to be too expensive and we want to bring more units into the space but then the more units is really units where it's naturally occurring affordable housing right so that's a sweet thing that we're looking at that's that's good but that's not binding right and we can't put it in the code and so the thought is that you know how do we strongly suggest that we want the developer to continue along this path right in having affordable housing and maintaining these rent levels that they've outlined for us how do we get that to be something that they strongly consider really is what I want to have them take into consideration and I think um because it's naturally occurring they are at their price point because that's what the market is bearing there's you know we can't determine what the market will bear this facility and the square footage and this and the number of bedrooms and the uncovered parking is going to determine what the market rate is and it's naturally occurring because of what it compares to because of what it's [Music] um because what similar buildings are are making people are going to paid more for here so I don't think we deal with uh continuation of that at all I shared a similar sentiment but I feel like I'm pretty satisfied with it it it feels like a complicates a rather simple matter at this point yep I would agree I I would agree with that I think I just had to work through that a little bit so I would I would go forward lose recommendation any other comments or can we proceed with a roll call Vote with uh the motion and the second in motion okay commissioner Aly I commissioner Miranda hi commissioner Pia I commissioner Smith hi commissioner day hi commissioner Bornstein I commissioner felt I commissioner Henman I chair Bennett I motion carries best of luck with your project thank you so much for doing business in Idina and being creative with what we got thank you to people coming in for the public hearing too really appreciate the engagement all right we don't have any other reports or recommendations as uh commissioner day mentioned no chair member comments or staff comments so we can just move right to get um so chair member comments yeah commissioner Pia just a very quick one um I got to go to pck a few days ago and it was the F the put check um and it was the first time I have been clear from you know the uh uh public hearing all the way through actually getting to a place that we approved and it was uh it was a great experience so happy to have done that and Pack's real fun fun so yeah that's that's just a great example of I mean when you think of what malls were just more retail and now what's trying to kind of naturally keep them alive is more of that entertainment shift and then other things too yeah and the Innovation I mean the Innovation that we you know kind of got to be a part of and so yeah very fun that's really cool Comm from Miranda um yeah so uh I know motans and twin cians in particular are you know have been a lot of our neighbors have been like you know oh the the weather is amazing it's great it's wonderful and everything and and I'm just terrified I just think this is absolutely horrible and um you know when the two hurricanes um in Florida in the Southeast and you know record rain and uh Asheville just kind of destroyed uh tornadoes in Florida you know um we're having record warmth and um you know poor little kiddos are going to have to deal with snow tomorrow for Halloween um it's really kind of terrifying and so that's why you know I I pushed for this cycling fund addition or whatever um because I think that anything that the city does I think should address our climate action goals because the world is going to hell in a hand basket you know right before our eyes and it's like if we don't do something it has to happen at every level of government and I feel like you know we're like first First Responders here and that we have to do something about it so um so yeah I mean it's been nice that you know I still have a tan but it's uh kind of terrifying that we have this weather and we're back into a drought you know so it's really um it's hard on Farmers it's hard on everybody so uh so let's keep up the good work thanks car you got anything journal entry anyone else yeah I got I usually don't have anything but can I go okay uh two two things real quick one um everybody should check out the kill District my wife uh threw me a 40 40th birthday party at a new kind of a business that has an event space there and I don't need to give a huge plug for it but um I know commissioner alar you did a lot of work on that area it's a part of the city not everybody knows about but there's interesting things happening there so uh don't write it off go go check it out uh learn about who's doing what and um maybe there's something interesting for you there um Second and I think may be more relevant to what we've been working on commissioner Smith you raised the idea can't remember remember when ago maybe a couple months ago that maybe um and it came up in the context of the the racially um prejudicial deeds in the country club neighborhood and some other parts of the city I read recently that I think the city of Moundsville Mounds View I think it was mountains view mandated that um when ever there is a sale of a home um that has one of those unlawful restrictions in the deed that it be removed as part of the sale and apparently it's not very burdensome to do and not costly and the fact that it was required suggest that maybe it's legal you know I think I was saying I didn't understand one way the other but but since there's now precedent for it from another city I think maybe it's time to rethink about whether Edina should should be doing it I don't think we're the right form for requiring that but there was another commission or committee I think that that was and so just to your idea it seems like it's getting some validation out there in the in the local government market and probably is worth citing that precedent and and pushing forward here you look at the map of where the the racially restrictive um and unlawful Deeds are it's it's all country glub and then some other parts of the city which just doesn't need to be there anymore so you were uh you were ahead of the game when you came up with that idea and I think I was the one that said I would try to pitch it to to whatever the right committee was so I think I'm going to figure that out and and incite that M view precedent to them great M felt I encourage you um all to go to the city has a page dedicated to racial covenants and the human rights and race relations committee did work in 2021 and the city has removed racial covenants on 52 of the all 52 of the properties they own they're 2800 in the city of Adina they're 550 in Country Club so it is not just a country club issue and it's not just an Adina issue it is all over the Midwest it is in Ohio it is in Michigan there are many of them so the city of Adina is one of 28 cities in Minnesota that participate in the just Deeds project and the just Deeds project is the project where lawyers donate their time for people to take the these Deeds off their properties so we have a lot of information in the city and um the HRC and the city has done a lot of work on this already I mean you think of all the things you sign when you buy a house I mean what's another signature right get that thing off there thank you guys for sharing great great news updates commiss Jour yeah Mo A J oh sorry you sure he said trick or treat motion to adjourn second all those in favor say I I meeting has been adjourned thank you everyone for