I believe evening L gentlemen like to bring me order rise pledge of Alle please IED FL the United States of America and to the rep for stands one nation God
indivisible andice good evening everyone this is the February 18th 2025 meeting of the a Carver City municipal land use board and in compliance with the open public meetings act adequate notice was
provided by postal on the city hall bulletin board and by notification to our newspaper record and I ask the secretary to please make this announcement part of the public record and Don if you would a roll call please Mar
Petty Mrs caner presid Mr Timbers here Mr Peterson here Mr G here Mr Walker here Mr McKenna here Mr moleno here Mr frck here Carol Goa here Ryan here and
secretary here thank you so we have minutes of January 21 meeting make a motion second there second second all in favor please
say I I anyone opposed minutes are approved thank you no resolutions a new business application 20251 EUR Sports Center Grant Street and the industrial park where you guys like me to sit stand
speak from anywhere hereone um Donna do they need to be closer to the mic so that it records it's probably best that you from the I can hear you but that's cuz I can hear yell I just yell my name board members
my name is Chris B and I represent Euros Sports Center which is the uh inder facility you guys arear 1524 Grand Street it's block 10002 lock one uh the property project was
approved back in 2007 they buil for almost 20 years um we are here tonight to ask for a waiver or relief from condition with the approval originally requ IR to do sidewalk along the frontage which was um brought up at the
hearing in 2007 and ended up in resolution um why it wasn't resolved back then and waiver wasn't asked for I don't know um I didn't represent them back then um but it in fact sidewalk was
not on the original plan but it never got resolved other than made it into the resolution in the resolution requirement to do it um it never got it never got done uh at this point um rather than spend the 20 some
thousand or so to must do it coming for you tonight and ask not to do it not to have to do it and ask for a waiver for that simply for the reason that it would be the only sidewalk in indust no other sidewalk there it would be a sidewalk that really leads nowhere
we have brought Tom days professional planner and when I say when I say it doesn't matter when I say professional Prof do you want to raise it's already raised you swear that everything you
offer tonight will be the truth yes Tom Tom you're Li professional planner in state of New Jersey I professional planner in state of New Jersey also civil engineer also professional engineer yes and testified throughout South Region um respect to planning qualifications and
this board before uh it's been a while but yes I will the board accept recogniz yes Tom I'm not going to ask you questions back and for if you would would you describe to the board the location of where we are what the situation is as it is today
why you believe that under the circumstances exist now La lab would be reasonable circum sure as Mr Bon described this is our site it's right here it's right on Grand Street one um this is gole Earth it's an area
it's part of the uh industrial parkal Business Park have brond Avenue on this side M at the top and then Havana Avenue then ANP I can get down the middle as I said here's here's the site we're talking about I'm sure you're all familiar with it uh it is the only site
if we were to do sidewalk it would the only sidewalk in the entire industrial Business Park I looked at where the closest sidewalk would be outside of the uh Business Park and it's 3,000 ft down brond it's actually on the other side of deer street uh so there really isn't any
sidewalk in the vicinity of the industrial business park but alone in the park itself when you look at the ordinance the reason we you require sidewalks in neighborhoods like for example the neighborhood a residential neighborhood by Cedar Creek makes perfect sense there you have a lot of
pedestrian and even I know there's intent to get pedestrian traffic long good off the Avenue again that's a worthy goal and it makes sense here there's really nowhere I gu said the closest sidewalk 3,000 ft away that's a little over half a mile um a lot of the
businesses in here you know they don't have pedestrian traffic uh there's no pedestrians coming here even most of the people would drive in Tom what Pur as destination yes yes it's you know this isn't a community where people are coming to walk around they're not going to park one place and walk to another
business uh so for that reason I I don't really think that sidewalk does anything in terms of you know making it more walkable development uh in terms of safety uh the times that this business is used most of the other businesses are closed it's nights and weekends there's not a lot of traffic through the
industrial business part that would impact you know if somebody did have to walk there's really no traffic at the times that people would be walking there again there AR a lot of people walking but if were it's not an unsafe situation and by the time they've gotten there they've already walked at least 3,000 ft on County roadways without sidewalk so
again if you look at the totality totality of the application and we take into account that every other applicant that's come before you has requested that waiver and be granted I really don't see where you know granting the waiver in this instance is any deviation from you know it doesn't hurt your
ordinance anyway I think it respects the ordinance just in this spot just isn't really necessary so one of the things that right brought was when the par sidewalk for purpos of the use would necessarily be used because it would be behind the parking field so to speak
people pull in they Park and they go right to the front door where in fact there is a pedestrian path along the front of the building yeah for for for Sight circulation pedestrian sight traffic there is there are sidewalks and it's striped so that way I mean the parking lot is up to C SE it's just you know again pedestrians walking along
Grand Avenue there's nowhere to go and there's really nowhere to come from so once somebody's obviously on the park a lot the sidewalk behind them no for the use that's there correct there's no benefit for the use that's there and there's no benefit Rel to the
community MERS of the board that's all really have um pretty straightforward kind of come here asking for your begging for your uh assistance in this regard questions from board members how many parking spots you have
now my count is 46 I think there 49 I believe 49 Mr O'Brien what's the occupancy for the building oh I'm sorry raise your right hand you swear that everything you offer tonight will be the trth do what's your name
John John John o'ri o'ri John what is your position with your I'm the treasur and owner manager you're you remember your sports LC that's I'm sorry what's the occupancy because I mean you have
what two two fields in there or just one no we just have one field I mean I I I've G A by there on on weekends when I guess you have a leak Sports you do get quite a bit of parking we do want to we do on the weekend on the on the street side of the yeah we
have kids leaves during the winter time so the Overflow goes into the street it does I think that's the reason why sidewalk should be important because my feeling the rest everybody else in indust park is an industrial use and
their customer base is pretty much themselves they don't have a a walking customer is their employees only where yours is is Transit where you have a lot of your your customers are parking out on the on the street side of your your
property and they're walking in and I would think at least the frontage part um that's exposed should have some form of sidewalk to gain proper entrance I don't know how that was never done the beginning our hours tend
to be during the week at night time like from 5:00 and then on weekends during winter time there's basically nobody in the IND that time people park on the street generally how do they how do they get front to park lot on the street yeah
they would park and then walk 11 just the parking the club the that's just on weekends when you get games yeah it's particularly with kids leagues during the week we have more a leagues and stuff attempt to car FW a lot more with
kids Le sponsor a lot of kids leaves there are some teams that be respons high schools use facility field are washed out Fields washed out how long's this been there we opened
in 2007 March 2007 so this has been a requirement for Co for 17 years now it has I just want to make sure I'm looking at the right resolution and only for the
record I want it to be clear um resolution uh 17 2005 yeah that's the resolution I have uh Chris had said earlier that um he mentioned a 20 a 20 seven resolution there there I think there's only one
right they opened up the business in no that's okay I just didn't want my resolution I think still the seven off the 17 yeah yeah I just want to make sure the resolution is Right parking requirement no parking VAR application so I I know this application's old
and certainly no one from the board has gone back and looked at it but briefly I Revisited it and was there plans for a second structure just going to mention that there the sidewalk requirement was not imposed until a second structure
must be buil for a certain date test second structure was never built could could afford can't afford to do it now couldn't afford it that and if there was a second structure where would that be located in relation to the let me show you that sir
S [Music] size so is that still a possibility that you would build a second structure I don't believe so do you own the property that that you could if you yes we do own the property that we could
we could build business just no it didn't uh the the plan was to open a second air structure because it's a seasonal type of business it's a winter indoor sports or maybe apply for a a variance into an outdoor field also you
know I the point is it's it's an important it's it's a money is it's monetary I'm trying to understand what the thinking may have been and it's probably just you know an exercise of futility but what the thinking was back then I I think that they considered if
there was another structure there was going to be more traffic and that that the sidewalks would be proven yeah that's why the resolution was for either open so Ryan or Carol uh should they
choose in the future to build a second structure could we impose a sidewalk we accept that at that point we would yeah I was going to ask Carol the same question so we essentially they had a the condition was delayed until issue of its Co for the second air structure
or a certain date could they just could the board just strike the date and revise that condition to be upon a occupancy C occupancy for the second air struct what was the date November 30th 2007 the original the constru the
structure got a temporary C in March of 2006 so essentially the board gave him about two years okay so um the first the the approvals were given in November of 2005 um the first temporary Co was March of 2006 so they build it in four or five
months um and I think that you know at the time they figured two years would be a sufficient amount of time they build the first one maybe 18 months later do the second one obviously John in the 20 years have been problems vehicle indust conflict AC or
anything like that actually not most problems out the field Ryan I believe it's they still have a conditional Co since then we've never because temporary Co yeah I sort of go through the history of um that and the city picking it back up every couple
years and going back and saying hey you never resolved this um I think they were first advised in 2009 that they would have to come back to the board to seek uh an amendment to their application um to remove that requirement and um it just at some point I remember um one of the
other owners came in and spoke to the board at a public session but they never never filed from application right now the city's been very generous to these guys so so Ryan can you clarify in your in your write up you you mentioned 150
ft and 460 ft 460 the total property but required was 150 no so in the Amendment to the or the addendum to the application that they called it which is like the onepage narrative in the back of the application it references installing sidewalk 150 ft along the
Grand Street Frontage um I have the plan with the sidewalk on it it scales out to about 460 ft my mistake I drafted that I made a mistake yeah there there's a label somewhere that says 150 ft but I don't think that it was intended to be the sidewalk I think it's just something nearby um so I I measured out the
sidewalk it's a 4ot width I gave you the area um you know tried to convey like what it would cost if the city was going to do at a bid price just so you have a little more information and understand you know what we're talking about John did you look at the the cost of that as well yeah I comparing the original
estimate to the current estimate looked up some statistics on price of concrete over that time and we estimated it would be between $18 and $20,000 which is right in line with Ryan's estimate nice and that's cost based on today's construction if they would have done it back in ' 07 it would I'm sure it would
have been a lot cheaper I believe the original Bond was for $8,600 the original cost estimate SS $8,250 so just clarify R was it 150 or 460 the right number the sidewalk is 460 ft long the whole Frontage of the
property the property is about 500 ft long and there's a driveway in the middle so it's 500 minus that how much of that Frontage is the current parking lot um most of it I think it also extends out in front
of the Basin but um yeah so there is 30 there is about 140 ft of it that would be in front of the stor management Basin beyond the end of the one Ed of the parking lot and then
another 30 ft that would be beyond the parking lot towards braen so the sidewalk would extend yeah sort of into that wooded section there and then past the parking lot into the Basin on the other side I like hold on [Music]
yep 235 ft plus or minus 240 ft something like that the approximate length of the so when you have a tournament the Overflow cars are parked on Grand Street yes that would be correct what what kind of a tournament
would you have to have sometimes with kids I said in the rec time then we do have a lot of to play they have a final how many times a winter do you think you have an overflow four times and 10
times every weekend anywhere you know where there's a side there's no [Music] side wait you guys got to remember it's being recorded and if anybody's unhappy with what happens we need to have a
clear recording yeah I say every other weekend for perod of two and a half months either way you get money shoes oh 10 to 12 times a year you have an overflow and people are walking in the street and
if it snows you got a problem with the snow right two really we for two and a half months will be about four or five times we we won't open during the St unless we have our L clear I'm not worried about your lot
we're talking about the sidewalks on the streets so about five times a year that condition occurs where on the Flor apartment yeah I would say yeah maybe yeah five to five to eight times a year my personal feeling is at least the
the Frontage that covers the parking lot I don't think the 460 ft is warranted but my personal opinion is in front of your parking lot there should be some access because there is you a lot of overflow parking goes out there how many
kids are on a team 18 the kids are it's so don't so you you would say they just so 13 kids for Te it's 26 total find a Time One qu per kid Plus
grandparents you're not fitting a gain in that parking lot like I can narrow the focus of the board's question and any motion uh the board knows that I prefer motion uh motions in the positive that way everybody's real clear about what
they're voting on so a motion um in this matter would look like um a motion to approve the request for a labor from the previously um imposed requirement to provide sidewalks according to your
ordinance not to poo poo the arguments and not to pooo Ryan's calculations of the cost but the cost has nothing to do with this discussion we we hear that all the time in zoning and plan Bo right um no one wants to spend more than they have to to run a business times are
tough times are tough back in ' 05 time are really worse now can't even imagine I put a big circular driveway in my office 20 years ago I can't imagine I wouldn't be able to afford it so while we may have sympathy for the cost to a business owner in our city to to comply
with an ordinance really the question is why do we have the requirement to have sidewalks and in any particular situation is that goal being met I'm not saying which I'm not on the
board I have no opinion but I think the discussion if you want to ask Ryan or Chris and his experts more questions really is in the site where it is if you have children getting out of the cars if they're getting out on the
passenger side they're right by the parking lot is it a problem do we need a sidewalk there if they're walking from the passenger side to the parking lot if the kids are getting off out of the car on the driver's side or parents I'm not I'm not saying only kids have valuable lives for the parents or the
grandparents if they're getting out on the driver's side is the existence of a sidewalk on the other side of the car going to help that's a decision that the board has to make we know why we have sidewalk requirements we want pedestrians to be safe is the
requirement to have the sidewalk here that for whatever reason a waiver was not requested we know applicants like to come in and not ask for too many variances or waivers but it's that speculation we don't know why the waiver wasn't requested back in ' 05 we
certainly don't know why we're here 20 years to the day later um addressing it probably because the city is pushing the issue now um we've seen a lot in the last year haven't we
about uh temporary cosos and we need to get them cleared up there are there are requirements in these resolutions for reasons so when you continue asking Ryan or the experts um why it's appropriate to
either Grant or deny the waiver I think that's what you need to have in your mind is there a justification for granting the waiver and that's something that you could have 10 different people come up with five uh feeling one way and five feeling the
other that's that's my legal guidance for you and you have to have justification for what you decide car um I'm always so bad that my back do oh no first on something like this will I have a vote before I say anything I don't want to if I wouldn't be able to
vote you're zoning right your zoning board uh planning board not zoning board because I'm on ccil right you're yeah this is just this is before the the old what we call planning even if you're not you can talk no well no I wouldn't want to influence
uh so my I'm looking at this that the occupancy is 120 um but there's only enough parking for say 50 or fewer people you know I'm thinking one kid per car um being that
there's overflow I'm sure someone at least in my mind would have considered the possibility of there being at least enough cars to satisfy this 120 occupancy and say there's overflow that
overflow um by what's been testified to there is no sidewalks within here so overflow would have always been somewhere without a sidewalk so if it was just about safety I think they've
you know that part of it is to some extent left to the individual to take precautions because overflow is going to be somewhere with no sidewalk um that and the fact that uh the idea of a the concept of a sidewalk came in with a
with the possibility of a second building I think it makes sense that maybe we would say Okay um until there is a second building you know we could give you like some relief of that condition so we make it conditional that if there's a second building then you
would have to do the sidewalk to me that makes sense is that the way it was originally written up ran it wasn't written up like that right a second building yes yeah I'll read the condition of theol
either new building or a certain date yeah it says the installation of sidewalks shall be delayed until issuance of a certificate of occupancy for the second air structure or November 30th 2007 whichever date shall occur first so the board at least originally
did give them um until the second structure I guess they at the time felt that it wouldn't become necessary until the second structure was constructed or G it's end yeah I I think you been here long enough we always try to have some
kind of back stop so it doesn't just go forever um here we are R how many parking spots would they be required to have we need a parking requirement yeah they they didn't need a variance um so most of the time parking
calculations go back to the ordinance and or to it e trip generation manual to Transportation engineers and for each use there's like a different factor to say like okay if it's this type of use this many occupants you know here's the factor it might be divided by 2.3 or
times you know it just depends what the use type is yeah I didn't know if like the on street parking was part of their original no if they didn't need a parking variance they had sufficient parking on site based on the calculations from two structures two
fields but with what's with what's here now was sufficient for the second building as well yeah I didn't I didn't do that review but I mean if they didn't get variance then someone did I'd like to make the motion that we could wave the other most of that but at
least the frontage in front of their parking lot they should do that's 150 ft at $43 a linear foot about a $6,500 cost it's 235 ft I your parking is that 150 is what's killing here
that's I'm screwing up on that even even if there was sidewalk here parking still in the street cut I can't I don't still know that in front of the building do that much make that much of a difference yeah you're only G five cars on each side of
the driveway M that that would have a sidewalk next it' be 80 on one side approximately 120 the other typically parking spots like 20 ft long the road it' be 10 10 spots generously it's a recreational area where you got families
and kids and sooner we can get them off the road and onto a sidewalk the better off my my decision isn't based on anything other than what I think is best for the public safety here I say you had this RightWay here where the time we go so getting them off the road is one
thing but when they on this area where sidewalk doesn't make so let's let's let's do the correct flow so there's a motion is there a second that's is there a second if there's no second somebody
else is free to make a motion is there a second on John's motion no second okay F further discussion U and this doesn't have anything to do with sidewalks uh the doors are falling off of your
trash enclosure yes and fix yes and that's a code enforcement thing I'm just I'm just mentioning that because uh we're understand we're irritated because
this has been 20 years that we've been trying to get this thing resolved not that it's right or wrong but you know you have to understand the the feeling that of the board that you know here's another thing that you know just drug along until we finally got you before the board to get it
resoled that that doesn't affect our our decision uh but I I think that that the uh Mr chair I just wanted to mention the trash enclosure fixed within two two three weeks to be fixed and again and another thing that doesn't have anything
to do with this board but is that a gas line that is just off the parking lot about an inch and a half in diameter and it's on a riser and it goes across the the platform into where your mechanical
device it's suppies to feel with I guess and no no protection for that no ballards or anything like that I mean somebody could hit that with a lawn mower and knock it over I'm just wondering how that never sign yeah just just curious I mean it
already looks like it's bent I'm just not that that has anything to do with with the board I just it just didn't look up to date you know because usually they put gas installations in now and you can't drive a tractor trailer near them and know there was no code
violation as far as no I understand I just I just wanted to mention it that's all okay so would somebody else offer a different motion well here's a dilemma I'm having and I'm not stuck on it but
this type of business is totally different than the other businesses in the industrial park you have manufacturers in there you don't get the the crowd you don't get to walk throughs and that other businesses this year you're dealing with
kids it's at nighttime you told me you you're telling me that Grant Street gets filled up with cars in a tournament and stuff like that sorry talk CR there the kids come during the day on Saturdays so you don't have anybody at night not not kids all right
well that also get hit by a car too so so you have pedestrians at nighttime kids during the day kids at night maybe somebody's got a kid that watches their pop play play ball I don't know but anyway uh if you're lining this
road up with cars if it's snowing if it's raining it's nasty out you're going to have people running down the street instead of just running down the sidewalk that's my concern currently like it overflow Lally
get out of the car just walk down thege the but you're already telling me you're putting cars in the street right so I'm envisioning Grand Street that you're having you could have cars all the way down by the by the turn by the by the uh
the turn on the street you know where that dirt road comes out through the this is on right there I'm looking at it right there right there you could have cars all the way down there I'm thinking they' be parking across street huh I've never seen cars
parked Street when you see cars parked in the street primarily where are they're on that birge there that grass birge side of the park where where the curve is curve Cur is the curve people are going to park get Park
as close as they have experienced cars park all the way down no cars on not the basically in front in front of building is and typically the worst
weather is the less cars are there because they're drop they're dropping people off more people are car poing and stuff like that you know I don't know yeah that's why I'm asking question so let's let's be clear when cars park in the street show them where
typically by thege here seen complete control Solutions usually constra the are the park yes we were saying I think trying to explain I what the ver
is the curve line here just walk Park Lot yes do they park on the other side of Grand Street as well and walk across the street few few cars by so that could be a little dangerous walking over as well
because not enough [Music] parking parking I can't right no no no we're talking about the sidewalks for safety I think that's that's our main concern help somebody on the other
side can I ask a question is that from princial mhm okay um I understand your concerns Todd and John but most of us here live in the Egg Harbor City proper so I can tell you there are very few times there's any kids on my sidewalk
they're usually in the middle of the street day and night doesn't matter whether there's light out or not uh they ride their bikes they take their what are those little things they ride skateboards all over um when you're not
in the proper part of the town you don't see that but I think George Will attest to that nobody walks on your sidewalk do they do you even have a sidewalk I don't have a sidewalk okay well I have sidewalks and I live on a corner so I can tell you there nobody on the sidewalk maybe I don't see kids walking outside anymore no I I I see your
nephews yeah okay and they're not on the sidewalk yes so um with that being said can I make a motion or no of course okay I make a motion that we offer them the waiver with the exclusion that if they do indeed expect
and that they have to come back I'm sitting in place of the mayor okay motion away okay figure out the this year okay second building put the sidewalk yes that that should be in there completely that if they're going
to ever build it whether he's the current owner or if he sells it then at that time they have to come back for the approval from the land use board to put put the sidewalks in so are are you conditioning that on a
building or if they add another field another field only you what they expand it at any time they should have to put sidewalks in at that time okay there's a motion there a
second second roll call Donna Mrs ker yes Mr Timbers yes Mr Peterson yes Mr G no Mr Walker no Mr
McKennon uh yes Mr Mullen yes Mr Frick yes thank you thank you what part of Dublin are you [Music] from mrri is there some video that we're required to watch yeah there's like five of them
but we're only going to do [Music] one thank you Mr first one s minutes you got so we have no old business and no council report right and no public comments are we're all done no we're watching a
video we're still on new business number six I had to watch this at home already different ones recording you have to do it every year finish meeting do that guess they upgrade we not yeah should we finish all the other
items and I can shut that off yes etiquette is usually let your let your let your professionals there so we don't we watch all of these over over again yes I'm the one playing the video you're good your Jamies Council report public
comments Frank anything from the public questions board comments I have a question I've only been on the board for just about a year right now it seems like a lot of these applications are coming up had conditional cosos for years and years and years what can we do
to keep that from happening in the future I mean just just like in the situation 17 years are still in a temporary Co well here's what happens or has happened a couple of times is that they
want to get their business open and it's not administrative things that are left open but it's usually far enough along that the city issues a tempor ratio so that they can occupy the building and start doing
with the uh stipulation that they're going to take care of that last thing for the the temporary Co but uh once it leaves this meeting it gets forgotten and you know months and months and months and now years and you know we're
not going back and looking at applications from 2007 it's just that there was other there was other issues within the city that uh they were forcing the TCO issue so they went and looked to see were there any other
projects that had not closed after Co and they found this one and maybe there were some other ones I don't remember Al so that's how that this is coming that's how that's how this came about because I know that in the past we had I keep referring to the kns of Columbus um it's not no longer the kns of Columbus I
don't the new name but that was the most five or six years as well that they just things were never we were issuing temporate every yeah I I need to make this real clear because this chair no no no oh no we can discuss
until midnight if you want I prefer popcorn if we're going to say that late but it's especially with the fil your chair and other members I think Mo I think everybody was saying the same thing takes that issue so seriously but
you just said it again and I waged my finger at you the last time you did it what did I do you said we once you approve something it's no longer within the board's purview and what I was um trying to stop
the last time this came up was the um you know as we're all speaking um casually it's easy to forget that this is being recorded and you want to make sure you speak accurately when things are especially when things are being recorded so they don't come back
and bich it when an applicant is either here being heard and you bring up those types of issues or you're speaking during new business when nobody's around um it's easy to say things that sound like that
issue might have some bearing on your decision on a completely separate topic so the fact that they didn't come back for 20 years until Angela who represents the city is pushing pushing pushing really can't have any bearing on whether
or not there's Merit to the request for the waiver for sidewalks they requested back numerous times though but it's the city's issue and I I know with this small community like this well especially since it's a small community uh Carol but the problem is that there's
no action unless board members who take a a vested interest of what's going on speak up and say something I understand but it's at a city and and we'll talk about it all you want but it's at a city council meeting or calling up the um the U inspector's
office The Code Enforcement office saying we need you to do this which then brings up the conversation we've had and I've had with many boards over the years you have a temporary person who can only cover so much area in in the time a lot you know it's hard it it's it's a
difficult it's not Manhattan where you've got a staff of hundreds covering all the work that needs to be done it it's really difficult municipalities don't have enough money for full-time or more than one person that person can't get everything done
and then the frustration comes out when it takes 20 years to get um a business owner and you want the business we don't we don't not want the businesses to thrive um it's a tough position but it's not the board's not only job it's not
within your jurisdiction so we can talk about it all night but I'm going to make sure that you guys stay saved as far as it's the buck leads here and it goes to the next Department point where you can't put any provisional or or or requirements just requireed from the
Geto and that's it don't give them any time don't give them a twoyear don't give a TC extension just say no you can't sidewalks have to be complete project at the beginning problem like we've been nice
to everybody like or isn't it really the case and this is where I'll get a little firm I was always a strict mother I'm a strict plus 20 years it took I get people are busy but it really takes 20 years for the city to get them back L the
one we give them a time frame to complete something they never do and then we turn into the bad people trying to fight them down I understand the nights of colus building was the same thing they agreed to pay in their parking lot now they can't afford it okay but then they have to come back
well we I think we just sto giving people the the leniency I agree no more tcos well I mean the TCO is not on us that's on the building department but as far as but it's the Catch 22 the sidewalks if we said oh you could have put no they could have did them for
$8,000 back then they should have did them and been done with it they could have put the 210 ft a sidewalk in front of their place for the same price mm at43 L foot so I mean second Buble so the building
were out once already well listen it's not the it's not the applicant's fault that I mean it's their fault that they didn't follow through with it but it it lies on the city to have followed up on it to say you know listen you got to take care of
this yeah and what what normally would happen is you pass a resolution of course the Construction office gets not the Construction office well the Construction office and the code enforcement office some sometimes it's two different things sometimes now it's not any you diary ahead we all do it in
life if a judge tells me to come back to court in 2 weeks I have to go back to my office and write it down you know everybody should have this calendar and instead of I'm sorry I'm sorry oh I thought somebody ask me a question um
you know there's a way to avoid this it might not happen as quickly as you want but 20 years is just way too long well I would encourage Council once again I've done countless times that
most towns have a sidewalk ordinance that includes a sidewalk fund so if you're asking for a variance to not put sidewalks in there's a percentage of the total cost what it would cost if you put them in you make a contribution to the sidewalk fund the city could use that
for either repairs to City owned sidewalks or to add to a grant that they received offset what the city would have to have paid towards a grant this would have been a perfect example where instead of them putting in the $20,000 at the sidewalk we could have given them
the the waiver with a contribution to the sidewalk fund and then the city benefits they benefit and at least there's something positive happening here but John we could put those conditions on each application here at the board before approval we don't have
an Ur that covers a sidewalk fund City doesn't have a sidewalk fund so I don't know how you can impose a sidewalk fund Fe if we don't adopt that I've given that to the city multiple times my father was president of the planning board Township I I've
gotten a written document all you have to do is change the word Egg Harbor Township to Egg Harbor City and the work's done for you you know this this isn't hard just like a recreation fund we don't have a recreation fund if you're a developer you don't
want to contribute to the recreation of the city e over Township I think it's $8,000 a home and that's paid up front before you get your first permit that's how important Recreation is so they're not having a problem selling homes I don't think they are here either
look at the development that's been stalled they they're building developments every day at a week look at the person with homes are sell for this town I don't think there's a problem selling homes but either way I'm not saying you have to charge $8,000 like go for there there should be some fee I pay
my taxes every month you know I don't want to pay them I I don't get a variance for that because I say you know I can't afford it because you know times are tough I miss misspent my money so I think we have a due diligence to to do what's right for the city as a whole and if they're a business owner that's their
responsibility I'm not trying to hurt anybody by no means I you know somebody has for Vantage for not putting in trees I'll give that all day long I mean I know and that other people don't like that but nobody maintains their trees they're ugly after they put them in I'm
I'm fine with baranes I'll give them away all day long but there's certain things that I think you know we have an obligation to do I'll leave it at that I I I have a concern that the you can do anything I guess you want by by an ordinance but once someone comes before
the board I don't think we can it I don't think it looks right if we have some type of fund where a person can get a variance by spending money do you know what I mean well like the argument with sidewalks is safety that's something they can pay to the city they can do
that before they do away with the safety if you give us money cuz that's kind of to me that doesn't our sidewalk is always to say get the kids out of the street have them somewhere safe to walk on but if you don't want to put them in just donate money to this fund and you're good because you don't need them yeah the
safety I'm nervous if if if that's our role that that seems like something that City I don't think safety should ever It ultimately Falls with the city council whether to wave the sidewalks or not so I mean we can squeak all we want but it's up to them and I'm going to
give you a prime example a new house that was built on Boston Avenue that house should have had sidewalks as far as I'm concerned I mean there's other properties in the neighborhood that don't have them but they didn't curves them
no city council weighed that so there's no continuity this board granted the Board of Education or whatever they are over here at the old flying pug not that to put in sidewalk because there's nowhere on either side
to walk to with the sidewalk right and it's they're not attracting to this day they're not they're not attracting kids and all that and we gave that but that's talking about the one across from May thews that's a perfect example where we could have asked for 20% of the total
cost towards a sidewalk fund you're not jeopardizing safety I would never put safety over money I care less about the money uh but when it when it comes to situation like that that that's where that fund is used that's why most towns and townships have that
ordinance well I think there's a cost of doing business and sidewalks is part of the cost of doing business and if you have 20 years to save your money up to put in sidewalks and you don't have it yet you got bigger problems in sidewalks
and I don't think it's and I completely agree and I don't think it's always we don't have it they don't want to give if I have a choice of nobody wants to give it I got plenty if I have $20,000 I have as I'm sure everybody here three different places we could spend it I'm
just afraid if a kid gets hit by a car or somebody gets hit by a car over there the first thing they're going to ask is why are you in the street I'm in the street cuz there is no sidewalk and there was 6 Ines of snow where it was raining so hard that everything's muddy
and I stayed in the street because everything was muddy and that could be just somebody back in out or driving out at the parking lot and hit the kid and somebody's going to ask that question so it's a I guess it's a matter of opinion I don't know but you're a lawyer
would you like that case not not for nothing I'm going to be the devil's advocate here there's no sidewalks anywhere in the key wck property that's right just saying okay you got 600 ft by 600 ft and all the way around and yeah
but everywhere you park on the key wck you're taking one step out of your car and you're on private property key wck ground you're not running down the street to get on to the fields you step off your own if they're on if if they're on Buffalo Avenue they
are they parked on the other side of Buffalo Avenue or there par on buffalo buffalo yeah there sidewalks on that on the other side that's Safe Streets to school it can go round and round you can go all night it's it's just a matter of
opinion okay any other comments or opinions okay let's uh make a motion we adjourn second is there public comment we had public comment you missed it but
right I I just want to say all the all your comments were great because uh when we had this snow just for the record your name Joe Keener 459 Chicago um when we had the snow ordinance that was posted and everybody
was up in arms about that that we were going to find people for not shoveling their sidewalks and it was a a big fine and up to 90 days in jail if you didn't shovel your sidewalk within eight hours or something like that we have
ordinances on the books right now that have been on there and Carl you're on the ordinance committee that have been on there since the 50s and the 40s and nothing has been updated for many many years so because of that and some other
things that we've been running into um the ordinance committee and City Council in general is reviewing a lot of these ordinances and John you you made a good point about the uh recreational fee
for new buildings like that and that's something to look at you know I know other towns have that and but there's other towns that have sidewalk ordinances too I don't know about what you said about the sidewalks I haven't heard that before where they would pay a
fee if you wave the sidewalk I haven't heard that wasn't there a recreation fee attached to we did yeah it was a Redevelopment plan so it was negotiated as part of the sale essentially which is separate we don't
have a regular ordinance that correct corre so uh all I have to say is I I thought you said said too that Kyra is another example if if we thought it was a safety issue we should be putting sidewalks there the city should be doing that and
uh it's a it's a question that's why there's a land use board because they come before you and ask for a waiver and then you have to decide what's what's right or what's not right so so not to put a stick in the spokes
but should this have been a council I I think if you would have gone the other way they could have appealed it to city council is that right car if you is the question if you denied the waiver they could have appealed to
council I think they could have I didn't know if that was your question that was my question that's your question no if it's my understanding and maybe there's a rule about sidewalks that I'm not familiar with but if an
applicant doesn't like the board's decision their um remedy is to file an appeal with the superior court and that's why it's so important and I I try to get um you guys to State reasons for
the way you vote because I take my notes I read the minutes I make sure the resolution is as tight as possible but ultimately a judge can find that they were my findings in fact and I'm not a board member um that's why when I
suggest how the motion should sound I'm trying to give everybody tips about and and in this case for example uh it can't be about the money certainly a money conversation about what the cost of certain things would be sometimes has relevance but I was surprised that that
was the hook because you can't make a safety decision based on how much it might cost the business owner um might be the most popular guy in town might make donations to all kinds of funds and fundraisers and things it
can't be the money upon which a board makes a decision whether or not to um make an applicant comply with rules that the land use is all about we hear it all the time what's best for the Zone plan safety air space like I mean we could go
down the whole list there's like 15 of them um it can't be about the money but it's my understanding that the only place to appeal um something like this is to the Superior Court there are some things
that can go a different Channel but I I can look it up for you but I believe it would be an action I was on the planning board for a lot of years and U I think there was things that we did on the planing board that were appealed to city council and it might have been
sidewalks so I'm not sure I'd have to look at your ordinance um that that's an interesting question to me but again again if if the town has an ordinance that says X unless they can prove that all of the
factors that the Board needs to consider um it's the board's decision I'll look that up that's an interesting question any other comments thank you motion to adjourn second all in
favor now we're going to watch our movie is there popcorn presentation in a series about new you too