as we change the All right. Good afternoon. It is 2:10 p.m. We are meeting with ECAP 4 wage opener. My name is Nikki Pal. You're not on there. Go ahead, Deb. Oh, fabulous for interim mass transit director. Debbie M, assistant county administrator. Uh, I guess we're over here. Michael Larry, president of the ATU 1395 and bus operator. Eli Williams secretary operator. Michael Brooks, chief shop stewart is bus operator
and county office. So, you sent me over something that I've reviewed and I have a to ask you. Is this What did I send you? Well, what you sent me was a bargaining unit list with their existing wage rates and their date of hire. Okay. Yes. With their with their classifications. And at the bottom of it, it says
3% equals $83,121. And then it has below that, it has the progressions that are built in for all the bargaining unit employees at ECAT with one of them being the part-time part-timert operators and the full-time operators with off to the right like an adjusted progression. Is that correct? You should have only received the wages for the um so that was probably added inadvertedly to there. Um that
wage cannot be accommodated because money's not there. So so that that's what I was working with. If you see if you're seeing a proposed that is what I was trying to work towards. So for instance like but that is not that's not a prop that was not meant to be a proposal. Your request was for the wages the 3% or the progression or both. The 3% is what is budgeted by the county. So that is the dollar amount that I'm working with. So that $83,000 that's what I'm working with
to have created a proposal. So the progression that's listed below is not something that you're currently offering. No. for instance to I'm just making sure starting wage of a bus operator from 1882 to 1997. That's not being offered. That's not even on the one that I have. This came from public from uh public records to me. So the I don't know who created this document. So it sounds like it's a created document and not an actual report. Uh, so I'll have to get with my department and find
out why they added a created document and not a not a report. The report that you requested was wages and that's what should have been attached. Um, I have a file that I've been working on that I've had wrote down multiple proposals that I have tried to get to, but with $83,000 I can't do it. So your position is that the progression for instance I'm sorry I'm sorry I wanted to tell where it came from. So the your position is the existing progression of 1882 for a bus operator
is the starting rate you're going to maintain as of right now. Yes. With a top out of 2387 after uh between 49 and 60 months as of right now. 60 plus months. Is that correct? Yes. Okay. So I had okay chang this little thought process here for us. Okay. So that was why I did in the email or I thought in the email that I replied to you I told you the dollar figure that I was working with so that if you wanted to come up with your own proposal we could cost it out. But that dollar
figure that 3% is what is budgeted. So that is about 83,000 for current employees. Um, but if I try to increase, let's say, those wages to that proposed table that I was playing around with, the increase comes to over $30,000 for incumbents and another $25,000 for vacant positions. That's over the 83,000. So that's an addition to So that's what is that? An additional $55,000,
which is not not budgeted. Okay. So 3%. So 3% is what is budgeted. Yeah, I got I I got it. I got it. So So let me just see something real quick. So what you're saying is like I'm just using an example. Someone that's at 1882 right now, they would go with a 3%. They would go to 1938, which is a 3% raise. Yeah. and that anyone hired in would be an 1882. Correct. Okay. Again, for the
record, that's not really our problem. That's more of a management problem because you're going to be the one struggling to hire people, right? That's how we feel, you know, which is why I I will say we really and and Daddius was supportive. He, you know, he worked with me on this and you could I'll just turn this around real quick. You can see all those numbers. All of all of it goes all the way to Yeah. But there's with what we're working with, there's not there's not room to increase the wage table. Yeah. I mean, I've had conversations with Mr. with that. I'm not used to that. Okay. I
called you Mr. Dort. Um, so I just, you know, hear that and and my concern is not so much existing employees because 3% is something that we'd be, you know, comfortable with on our side, right? Um, I I think the existing employees I I don't know about the So for let me check. So for for you and and raising bus rates and this is what where we run into the problem is not just raising
that bottom rate because you have the table it raises all of those rates. So then you have to apply that to the progression. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. So that's where the it would cost me I'm just going to out a number but let's say $50,000 to raise starting wages for the vacant positions. Yeah. But to apply that to the progression and apply it to the rest of the union, we were looking at around is that the 115 number I gave you? I think it was the 115. So I mean, you know,
this goes back to the original negotiations back before we signed the contract in 2023. just, you know, well, it took so long to get a contract. If we had done it the way mass transit, which I know was bad and more than that is used to seeing we in transit industry, we're used to a five-year progression and that's what people get and you adjust the progression. You don't adjust wages, you adjust the progression. So, when there's an increase, it adjusts that. And uh uh but we're not there obviously that's that's kind of out the window. So the county, you know,
again, we have the money to do parent incumbents. The money is just not there to adjust for the vacancies. Even with budget cutting the number of vacancies they're cutting, there's still vacancies that if you increase that wage table, I think just that base rate on the vacancies that remaining come to around $35,000 increase on just vacant positions if you increase the wage table. Okay, I won't deny that. From my perspective as the union president, I'm disappointed because 2387
is the top rate for those fellow employees that are currently in that progression. That's the most they're going to reach if they get to that 2387. And you know, to me, I think that's a low number. That's not industry standards for a professional bus operator. I don't know. But of course, you're going to be adjusting them year after year when you give them an additional raise and adjusting their existing raise, right? So, they'll end up like us at some point where
they're above that 2387 because you've adjusted every year, right? I'm not saying we can't live with that. I'm just saying that, you know, it makes it hard for them to see the end when they're looking as a new employee, where am I going to be at? But um I I I kind of worry for your side of being able to hire people because I've watched people come and go during training. Stan Boy, you got to agree with me on this one. I've watched you put people through training and then they go
see you and they walk away for various reasons whether some say it's wages, some say it's the schedules that they have to work. Some come in and they see what we actually do. Debbie, you I look forward to you maybe coming and watching what we do and see what we do. They're shocked to see the responsibility that we actually have as as bus operators but in technicians. The the the skill the technicians have is is amazing, you know, to deal with the fleet they have. Um, but I don't
think the union's going to walk away from a 3% raise. Okay, we're not going to do that. I mean, 2% I was a little kind of like not happy, right? We weren't happy. We think we work hard enough to at least get a 3%. And so, we're pleased that you all found that in the budget. I'm not going to not going to say we aren't. I am worried about people that are below the top people that are making the top wage. I am worried about them a little bit, how they're going to feel. Uh, I noticed like one after they get this 3% raise and then they move in the progression, they move one penny when
they reach their one penny when they reach that time in that one that month of service. They're going to be like a penny really. But um um you know the other progression I saw on the screen when I got this I was like I was excited because I thought you guys were we were excited but it's not going to work. I got it. I got it. you know, uh I was excited for those that are existing in the progression and those that would be coming in the door, you know, even though I still think 1997
is a little low for this industry. And I know I emphasize that all the time about the industry, but you know, it it is a job that is is not what people think. A lot of people think you just drive. You got to have a lot of skills. You deal with people every day. You deal with all types of people. Okay. And uh uh it's hard sometimes. Um I just came from a safety meeting the other day with
with Rashad and we were talking about this exact issue of how we deal with individuals and uh um we were we were discussing how you deal with so many different personalities. It's not easy to to u have the same personality for every person because you got to be careful what you say and sometimes you know it's not a friendly moment for us but so 3%. That's what you have on the table. Um
so if I guess I'll wait before I say this other thing before I go to the other thing I want to talk about. Um, I want him to hear that. Um, I mean, I think you're the 3% pushes some of the some of the individuals to like in maintenance department. You're pushing them into a much better wage scale for the skill they have being
technicians. Um, I do think your wage rate for a cleaner, a starting cleaner is is exactly what I hear Commissioner May say on the the DAS when he talks about we got a utility worker. Is that what you call a utility worker? Because I don't have a cleaner. It's a utility worker slashcleaner. It's, you know, they they service buses. want to make sure I have the right position. I just know the
position he holds more than he is a See, in my eyes, a utility worker is the one when the bus comes in at night, they check the oil, they check the fluids, they they clear out the fairbox and do all the thing. They check to see if there's any defects on the bus and they move it to the maintenance department if there's defects that need to be worked on. A cleaner is one that's cleaning the bus, but they they've kind of combined them to do all everything. They're training them to do everything. And so that rate of pay of of 15 let me think 1549 I think it is is
pretty concerning because I was as I was saying commissioner May I've heard him on the dis talk about you know we don't want to be a place where where uh people come to work and they're they're living and they're going for food stamps and whatnot and services because they can't live and again I know that Marcus has told me, this is the the cleaner I'm talking about, he hopes he can stay, but he doesn't know if he can make it with this kind of pay. Um, I think that pay is a little low. There probably would be some room in the budget to move that wage
table simply because there's only three people in those positions and there's no vacancy. Well, only two only one of them is in in a in a dire straight of pay. the other two the the other one's making top and I say that in um there is going to be some movement in the custodial um salaries so we could make that probably equivalent and update that wage table um I could probably get a little movement from budget on that simply because there's only three
employees I think when it comes to the bus operators you that's 43 43 employees that talking about plus your eight vacancies and that's why that costs so much money. I mean, yeah. I mean, I'm not saying you have to adjust the entire progression on their existing progression because of the three people, two of them are making a decade
plus he's gotten existing raises. It's the guy at the bottom that's the one that I'm afraid you're going to lose. and anyone coming after him. He's actually replaced somebody that quit. Generally, when you have a wage progression, you kind of shift the whole the whole thing. And I'm okay. I'm fine with that. So, I'm just making the point. Okay. The the other and I'm just I want to go on the record. That's why I'm saying some of these things. um
you know, when you're not adjusting our starting wage as a bus operator and leaving at 1882, that's that's uh concerning. And um I will just say this, Nikki, as you know, I talk to every new employee that walks in the door because I'm trying to talk to them. I meet with them in orientation and I meet with them oneon-one about the union or whatever. And I and I will tell you that the new hires have expressed there's there's one, two, three, four, five of them right now. And every
all five of them expressed to me 1882. They're they're only hanging in there based on these wage negotiations. And you know, I'm not saying they're going to leave, but um all five expressed concern at that rate. They said it was a very low rate to come in and you know some of them came here's the other thing about that that group that came in. They all came in with experience. They all came from other places. Uh I mean you got Tammy Ferguson came from Sarasota transit. You
got Patricia who came from Michigan driving a bus up there. You got Taylor who drove a bus in Santa Rosa County. You got Let me ask you a question. Well, I'm trying to get to a point. Hold on. It's not like you're hiring someone off the street and then training them and giving them a CDL. These folks are showing up to the property with skills. You just got to teach them the routes and teach them your rules and policies. But as far as driving a vehicle that size, they're they've been doing it. And so I'm only saying to you on your side what I've heard from them. You know, one of
them one of them is I hope she doesn't leave, you know. I just hope she doesn't leave. But, uh, you're going to push her to 1938 with a 3%. And okay, we'll see how that goes. Again, I'm not going to I'm not going to, you know, if you say you got $83,000, that's what you got. And, uh, we can go from there. But, um, I think u I just think that the problem's more on your side, not ours.
I would, my side is trying to tell you when you had that second progression that I saw on the screen, we were ready to say, "Let's talk. We're ready. We're ready. We think this is going to work." And, uh, but it's not there. And you were right. And you're always right. So, um, the other thing is you got, and I'm I'm just adding this in to for discussion. We we've got a pilot program that's out there and at some point that pilot program will end and if you
decide to take them in house, we're going to be discussing that wage rate of a nonCDL employee, non I think they're making 16 and change now, right? and we're going to be discussing. I can tell you I've talked to many of them and they have told me personally they can't they're they're they're just hopeful for the pilot program to end so they can get become county employees, fall under the union, get benefits, negotiate a more living wage, right? And uh but when you're
still at 1882 for starting rate of a bus operator with a CDL, that's that's that's a problem. And um you're going to find yourself with a lot of high turnover rate at some point with uh with those um individuals. You're going to try to keep them down there in the $167 raise, which by the way, ITL has gone now two years without raise. ITL is not giving those poor drivers over there a raise in two years. And and he's not even communicating to the union anymore. So I'm a little frustrated there. Um I just I'm very proud of the workforce at ECAP.
Deb, I don't want to say I feel like saying Miss Bowers, but Ted, I'm trying to be respectful because position, but I just want you to know since you're coming in as a new admin, assistant administrator over that department. You know, I've been there 30 years and I'll tell you, I'm very proud of a lot of my co-workers. They put in a lot of hours to help keep that system going. And and and you know, some people say, "Well, you get paid overtime." Yeah. Well,
overtime's great. Obviously, some of us, we like overtime, but it's more than that. You're taking away from your family. You're you're taking away from your private life. after spinning. Michael Brooks, we joked about him when he got here, wears his uniform on because it's usually on his back, his uniform. It they go out there and move this community every day and they really I hope the county understands that these professional CDL drivers are the are the best. Yes,
there are there are there are mistakes out there. There's no doubt about that. We're going to deal with agreements here uh after this. But um you know based on an accident, there's going to be accidents unfortunately. But it's there's some of us out there that you know I'm one of them. I'm going to brag and say never had a preventable accident in my career, right? I'm not just the only one. Don't don't get me wrong. There's a lot of us. And there's and the ones that have had some that have had preventable accidents, minor minor little accidents, you know, it's and compared to the hours they put in, you know, they So,
I can't emphasize to you how professional these folks are, they're skilled. They're out there moving those buses. So, when you know, when we're getting these wages to where we're getting them, I'm pleased to see the top people getting to where they should be, which I think is industry wages. right there. You're right. You're getting close. Not quite there, but you're there. You're getting close. And I'm not going to argue that. I just worry about those coming in. That's all. And uh um Ela Mike, you got anything you want to add? I only want to say um if we're offering
3% I'm all for it. I hope the union accepts a 3% off, you know. So, um I don't know where where we going with it, but it'll be some happy employees and happy drivers, you know, to take that 3%. And I don't want I don't want us not to take it and the other county employees get a 3% raise and then we still be negotiating with with the county for five more years like we did before. So,
you know, I'm hoping that we take the 3% that we can agree on that and just make everybody happy. Yeah. I think the I think I came in, we told you we're not angry about we're happy to see 3% gone from 2%. We're we're there. Again, I just want to go on record. I'm worried about y'all and new hires and existing employees that are not at top rate. I'm more concerned about whether you This is what I was going to ask you a minute ago. We might have to do some wheeling and dealing with but with
uh Stephen. Would you be opposed? This is just a thought. Would you be opposed to removing that beginning rate going to a fourstep progress and with the starting being at the that the 1997 is one? We take you mean take off a year basically. And what would be the stats 1997? 1997 the 21 20 22 49 2387 we don't change don't change the progression you just take off that that first
take off that first step so it' be 1997 2020 20 2120 2249 2387 give up one more position what's that was a whisker that wasn't meant for me was it I knew I should I got I got I got to wheel and deal some positions um So, so if it goes to 1997, let me just look. Here's my question. If we're going to go to 1997, that's what you're
changing. No, that's we're going to a four-year progression. I'd have to run that past budget, but I'm asking you today what your thoughts are before I Okay. go through. My question is with the 3% raise the existing, which I think there five of them. Let me see. Six of them. There's six employees. One's just a penny difference. After the 3% raise, you would adjust those five up to 1997 because they're with the raise they'll be in 1938. Is that correct?
So the proposal would be how we write the proposal. So it would be they're brought up and then you get 3% or 3% and then you bring your wage table up. I would do the 3% and then based on the the new agreed upon progression, you adjust them to the to the beginning. Like to the beginning rate based on their months of service basically just bring them to 1997. Correct. Because they're already getting more than 3% basically. Well,
they would end up getting more than most people. Yes, I agree with you. But if we're trying to get qualified people into ECAP Yeah. Is that something you would be interested in? No. Sure. And on our side, we're going from on our you would go from a fiveyear progression back down to a four. Okay. For now, I mean, if there if if we ever see that we're getting
revenue or we see that there's money coming in or there's there's money available, we can discuss. But I just I very quickly did the math. So I don't want to make any promises but very quickly did the math and said I think if we if we take a position from from him um we might be able to what's we might be able to to do that um and then that doesn't change your whole table. You do have to
I just saw something you do have to adjust trolley drivers too. Uh, not much. Uh, one cent with the 3% with the 3% they go to 1996. It would go to 1997. Are those the are those temporary? They're part time. They're talking about our progression, right? They're talking about the old progression. They would eliminate this and then would be a four year progression starting here. That would be 0 to 12 here, 1997. And the others were just down and it would stop it be 37 to 48 plus.
Let me just say something. Yeah. Well, the top would be 237. No, not us. No, but he wouldn't be here. He'd be here. That's the way. Let me look his name. No, I we got it perfect. He'd be he'd be above it. He's like he'd be like all of us. He'd be above he'd be above that top rate. Yeah. He'd be
Yeah. Does that make sense? Okay. So, okay. So, if I can work that out with budget, um I'll see um what I'll do is maybe just since we've talked about it, if I can work it out with budget, then I'll have the draft written and send it to you. So, when we do theou I'd like to ask one thing. Okay. Not just say 3% across the board. You would it would also show the progress the adjusted progression, right? as of this effective date,
which you I'm assuming is the first pay period, October, would be the adjusted new progression, correct? And that would be the reasoning of you having to adjust the other people because that, you know what I'm saying? They would get 3% first pay period of October and then you show that we agreed to an adjusted progression and because those people below it, you would agree that they in theou that they get adjusted. The just the B. Yeah, the bottom. It will be the correct people.
Yeah, correct. The people will at the bottom. It would be the first full the first full first full paperification. Not the first day there could, but I I also would like you to reference something that I just want to have it on record, which is we reference an email you would send prior to us prior to the first full pay period in October, which will list existing employees, their previous wage rate, and then the 3% and their new pay rate. I just want to have that in
as record that they went from uh 2459 to 2533. So like after we implement the 3% you want a copy of the before and after report in theou I want you to re say we don't put employee names in I don't want the names I want you to reference an email that was sent to the union stating effective the first pay period in October we have adjusted all existing employees and that email shows what it is
and when we get it we'll have just like you just sent us back it's just going to be our standard. We're not going to put that inou. It's going to be our standard language of effective blah blah blah. We get the 3% and then here's the new wage table. That we're not going to put that in anou. I'm happy to send you a report. Okay. But we won't. That language doesn't That's what I got. You were asking for at that time you want to have a report sent. Yeah. Show me the existing
report, but we're not going to reference it in anou. Yeah. I don't want to have to come back and keep asking you, you know, what is this person making? You know what I'm saying? I want to be able to follow up ourselves because again, you know, when they when they get a raise that's for existing employees only, it's different than what the progression is. And it's it kind of I mean, when I looked down here and I saw some of the folks, I was like, "Wow, I didn't realize they were at that wage rate. That one's kind of strange, you know. Didn't know they were at
that because they got 3%, 2%, 4%, right? Whatever. Whatever. So, I didn't know even know what they were at. So, I'm just asking. Okay. Um, so I guess that is It sounds like once you go to budget, we'll be close and we can sign off and we can try to wrap up. It sounds like happy with 3% if that's all we can do. But if I can finagle this, maybe get rid of this bottom wage and just go to a
four tier with everything else remaining the same, that would be even better. Yeah. And sounds like with the only thing I will again, I did this last meeting. I'll say it one more time. I'm doing it for my own members to actually listen to these recordings. Again, last year you guys gave a 3% across the board. it wasn't negotiated, you know, and and I know in the future you're going to make sure that that's not going to happen because you we feel like we lost a wage reopener because, you know, if I if I was standing firm here, I'd be arguing that this is for last year's wage.
This conversation today, I really think kind of shows you why we just said push the 3% because it's really not enough to to even anything with and there wasn't anything additional last either. But I I I think it's important that you pull your unions aside before you actually implement that and talk to us and make sure we understand that this is what we're going to give you. Even if we have a wage over, you're not going to get anything else, you know, or whatever. And the only reason I say that is because depending on the union, they might say, "Well, you know what? We want 4% for
this person, 2% for this group." You know, you know what I'm saying? And adjust it the way they want it to fit depending on the weight. But um we're we're on board with the 3% right now. Okay. Um and uh and I'm very happy that you tried to at least tried to adjust that that that starting rate. I hope that brings you a few people that report. See what I can that is that is Yeah. I can't get used to you calling me Mike. Mr. Larry. Um, but if he does, we're going to put a quarter.
We're going to put quarter jars all around so that every time someone says Mr. or Miss, they have to put a quarter in there. We don't carry cash, you know. We don't want to get You have anything else? Y'all can throw I think y'all you be able to throw a big party. You have anything else you want to say on the record? Yeah, I will say one last thing. We We've been told that Mr. Dav Thaddius, Mr. Davenport is going to be our hopefully permanent. Well, we we are in well with the change in leadership with Debbie. We're going to do some things different. We're
going to do some things different. So, I don't know what that means, but Mr. I mean, I will I will tell you because you will see it and that is not discussed. We are going to post the position just so that that's how you know I've done it with all my departments even though some of them have gotten post the position theire director position. Oh and that is we'll be applying for it and then you know oh so what our meeting is not correct things change just that quick. Okay. But you
already introduced as director. Yeah. That's just you know the employees you welcome you all this conversation doesn't need to be on the record. I'm a wage opener. So if you have anything else to say about wages otherwise I'm going to go ahead and turn off the recorder. No I think we're close and I think you'll get back to us pretty quickly on wages. Correct. Thank you. Thank you.