##VIDEO ID:IQ0AGYFgPKg## guys for great do the best how you all right minutes started we got a qu right oh wow wow okay if you sick you don't need to come don't come 
don't come I know need to stay home if be sick thank you wa all right uh good morning everybody Happy New 
Year hope everybody had good Christmas and Holiday   days um we'll get this show on the road it's 
a meeting of the esami County planning board   for January the 7th 2025 is hereby called to 
order with what do we got six members present   we have a quorum uh please remember to turn 
your cell phones off or put them on silent   while we're in the meeting if you could please 
stand with me for the pled Pledge of Allegiance right of the United States of 
America the stands indivisible andice all right do we have a proof of publication 
yes sir did the publication meet all legal   requirements yes sir and I'll entertain 
a motion to wave the reading of the legal advertisement moved got a motion second got 
a second all those in favor please signify by   raising your right hand all those opposed motion 
carries the Reon owning meeting minutes from   the previous meeting dated December the 3D have 
been provided to the board members are there any   additions deletions or Corrections if not I'll 
entertain a motion to approve motion we got a   motion we got a second all those in favor please 
signify by raising your right hand all those   opposed motion carries all right the resoning 
hearing package for January the 7th 2025 with   findings of fact has been provided to the board 
members I'll entertain a motion to accept the   hear resoning hearing package with findings fact 
and legal advertisement into the evidence do we   have a motion motion to approve second T all 
those in favor please signify by raising your   right hand all those opposed okay motion carries 
will the court reporter please swear in members of Staff all right the board has previously 
qualified staff to offer expert testimony   in the area of land use and planning does anyone 
have any questions regarding their qualifications   and abilities to offer expert testimony 
all right seeing none at this hearing the   planning board is acting under its authority 
to hear and make recommendations to the board   of County Commissioners the BCC on resoning 
applications these hearings in qu are Quasi   judicial in nature and these hearings are like 
evidentiary hearings in a court of law however   less formal all testimony will be given under both 
and anyone testifying before the planning board   may be subject to cross-examination all documents 
and Exhibits that the planning board considers   will be entered into evidence and made part of 
the record opinion testimony will be limited to   experts enclosing arguments will be limited 
to the evidence in the record before making   a decision the planning board will consider 
the relevant testimony the exhibits entered   into evidence and the law each individual 
who wishes to address the planning board   must complete a speaker request form and submit 
to the planning board clerk these forms are on   the back of the table or on the table in the 
back of the room and you will not be allowed   to speak until we have a received a completed 
form please note that only those individuals   who are present and give testimony on the record 
at this hearing today will be allowed to speak   at the subsequent hearing before the board 
accounting Commissioners the BCC at that time   no new evidence can be presented before the board 
County Commissioners therefore all testimony and   evidence must be presented here today the planning 
board will provide a recommendation for each   resoning request to the BCC which will review 
testimony documents and Exhibits consider the   closing arguments and make the final decision all 
Decisions by the BCC are final anyone who wishes   to seek judicial review of the decision of the BCC 
must do so in a court of competent jurisdiction   within 30 days of the date the BCC approves or 
rejects the recommended order of the planning   board all written or oral Communications outside 
of this hearing with members of the planning   board regarding matters under consideration 
today are considered expar communication these   communications are presumed presidential under 
Florida law and must be disclosed as provided   in BCC resolution number 96-13 as each case 
is heard I will ask that any board member who   has been involved in expart communication to 
please identify themselves and describe the   communication as required by section 27.2 of 
the Escambia County Land Development code the   planning board's recommendation to the BCC shall 
include consideration of the following approval   conditions the applicant has the burden of 
presenting competent substantial evidence to the   reviewing board establishing that the requested 
zoning District would contribute to or result   in a logical and orderly development pattern the 
appropriate surrounding area within which uses and   conditions must be considered may vary with those 
uses and conditions and is not necessarily the   same area that is required for mailed notification 
a logical and orderly pattern shall require   demonstration of each of the following conditions 
a consistent with the comprehensive plan the   proposed zoning is consistent with the future land 
use flu category as prescribed in LDC chapter 3   and with all other goals objectives and policies 
of the comprehensive plan if the resoning is   required to properly enact a proposed flu 
Amendment transmitted for state agency   review the proposed zoning is consistent with the 
proposed flu conditional to its adoption Criterion   B consistent with zoning District Provisions the 
proposed zoning is consistent with the purpose   and intent with any other zoning establishment 
Provisions prescribed by the proposed District   in chapter 3 C compatible with surroundings all 
the permitted uses of the proposed zoning not   just those anticipated by the rezoning applicant 
are compatible as defined in chapter 6 with these   surrounding uses the uses of any surrounding 
undeveloped land shall be considered the   permitted uses of the district compatibility is 
not considered with potential conditional uses   or with any non-conforming or unapproved uses in 
establishing the compatibility of a residential   use there is no addition burden to demonstrate the 
compatibility of specific residents or activities   protected by fair housing law D appr appropriate 
if spot zoning where the proposed zoning would   establish or enforce a condition of spot zoning as 
defined in chapter 6 The isolated District would   nevertheless be transitional in character between 
the adjoining districts or the differences with   those districts would be minor or sufficiently 
limited the extent of these mitigating care   characteristics or conditions demonstrates an 
appropriate site specific balancing of interest   between the isolated districts and adjoining lands 
e appropriate with changed or changing conditions   if the land uses or development conditions within 
the area surrounding the property of the resoning   have changed the changes are to such a degree 
and character that it is in the public interest   to allow New Uses densities or intensities in the 
area through rezoning and the permitted uses of   the proposed District District are appropriate 
and not premature for the area or likely to   create or contribute to sprawl at the beginning 
of each case as long as there's no objections   from the applicant we will allow staff to briefly 
present location and Zoning maps and photos of   the property next we will hear from the applicant 
and any Witnesses they may have then we will hear   from staff and any Witnesses they may wish to 
call and then finally we'll hear um testimony   from members of the public who have filled out a 
speaker request form today we have one case to be   heard the rezoning application for consideration 
is case number z-2 25-01 which requests rezoning   of 5200 block of North Blue Angel Parkway and 
5600 Block North Blue Angel Parkway from medium   density residential MDR district 10 dwelling units 
per acre to hdmu high density mixed use District   25 dwelling units per acre requested by AA Mills 
gutcher agent for blon teston owner members of the   board have there been any expart communication 
between you and the applicant of the applicants   agents attorneys or Witnesses with any planning 
board members or anyone from the general public   prior to this hearing have you visited the subject 
property and please also disclose if you are   relative or business associate of the applicant 
or the applicant's agent no to all no to to all no   to all no to all no to all no to all right staff 
was notice of the hearing sent to All interested   parties yes sir was notice of the hearing posted 
on the subject property yes sir great um and we've   got are we good with is the applicant okay with 
the staff presenting the photos Okay um all right   staff I'll let you go ahead and present the math 
and photos for the case today okay good morning   um Allison Lindsay Urban plan or development 
services so this is the location map showing the   parcel outlined on Blue Angel Parkway this is the 
500t radius map zoning showing the medium density   residential zoning currently this is the future 
land use map showing the mixed use suburban and   this is the location map showing the property site 
this is the public hearing sign that we posted   on site and this is looking into the subject 
property this is looking North along Blue Angel   Parkway this looking east across blue angel from 
the subject property looking Northeast um across   Blue Angel Parkway and this is another public 
hearing sign that was posted a little further down   because it was the two Parcels looking South along 
Blue Angel Parkway from the subject property and   this is just another view into the subject parcel 
so same one um another view North along looking   North along U Blue Angel Parkway and that's 
the map some photography all right thank you   at this time could we have the applicant or the 
representative to please come forward and uh swear   in any witnesses that you may have or be sworn 
in yourself um I guess are you attorney I am not I do all right and then if you could just State 
your full name and address for the record yes my   name is Alara Mills gutcher I'm a certified land 
use planner and I'm in ly Haven Florida okay and   then just a couple questions and then I'll let 
you get going I'm sorry just um and then did you   receive a copy of the reasoning hearing package 
with the findings of fact from the county I did   okay and then do you understand that you have 
the burden of providing by substantial competent   evidence that the proposed resoning is 
consistent with the comprehensive plan   furthers the goals objectives and policies of the 
comprehensive plan and is not in conflict with any   portion of the County's Land Development code 
I'm aware yes okay good to go so uh I have been   admitted as an expert witness to Escambia County 
in the past for the record uh board if we would   like to um consider Miss Mill g gutcher a expert 
uh witness today I think that would be appropriate   timing for us to have a conversation on that and 
and see if that's something we want to do yeah I'd   like to go ahead and move that we do so but if you 
wouldn't mind uh maybe sharing with the board I I   had I looked at your the website and I kind of did 
a little dive into it but if you'd share some of   your credentials and I think we can certainly get 
that in there yes so I have been in practice in   Northwest Florida for about 25 years um regionally 
from mamian County to Jefferson County and I have   worked on some projects in Central Florida 
um um I have a master's degree in Regional   and City Planning and I have been uh admitted as 
an expert to um DOA and to Circuit Court and to   various County commissions throughout the region 
and City councils and board of adjustments in fact   your board of adjustment here in the scambia 
county yeah and I'll say I think you were on a   Case when I was on the vaa that we um accepted you 
as expert witness at that time so Mr Speaker I'd   move that we uh accept her as an expert witness 
I've got a motion to we have a second there any   questions further questions all right all those in 
favor please seey by raising your right hand all   those opposed all right thank you thank you um as 
you are aware this is a resoning request um to and   we are in the we are not changing the future land 
use map I think we all agree that the the request   is consistent with the future land use category 
your staff has noted so in the report so we just   like to know that we are compatible consistent 
with your um future land use map in this request   um I would like to give a little history we 
actually submitted this application on November   20th for a request to go to the commercial 
designation knowing that with the hdmu category we   are still going to have to go before the board of 
adjustment for conditional use permit because the   store size that is anticipated to be developed is 
greater than 6,000 square feet and the Restriction   of the hdmu is that you have a sized uh store that 
is 6,000 square fet or less so the application was   actually submitted as a commercial request and 
uh staff came back and asked us to revise that   application which is really highly um unusual for 
staff to ask an applicant to amend an application   to go to the hmdu because it was uh more palatable 
for the request so we did that we resubmitted the   application on December 2nd at the re request 
of the county I amended all of the application   analysis to coincide with the hdmu category as a 
lesser category knowing now that we will have to   go back and come for a conditional use to the 
board of adjustment if this is accepted by the   County Commission um so you have in your packet 
my analysis for the rezoning which includes a   compatibility analysis to show that we are 
compatible with the surrounding uses and by   Florida statute the definition of compatibility is 
one that uh excuse me where we won't be contrary a   cause a condition that will will cause unnecessary 
hardship or use of property surrounding the area   um as you're aware this is over six acres this is 
about 6.6 acres and um another point to mention   is when we applied for the commercial category 
originally we only asked to change the 2.5 acres   that front the road however because there's 
two Parcels we were um told that that's not   something that escamia County will would be 
willing to entertain because they don't do   split zoning on Parcels which is understandable 
a lot of local governments won't do that we were   willing to subdivide that and reconfigure that but 
the timing was such that we need to go ahead and   proceed um the applicant does not plan to develop 
those other four-ish acres in the back they're   they actually discussed even donating that to the 
county for some sort of park or some sort of use   uh we were told that the county isn't looking for 
extra property right now for those kind of uses   so here we are today applying for the amendment 
for both Parcels for the 6.6 acres to the hdmu   um just rest assured that the only portion 
of the parcel that will be developed is the   2.5 acres that front the road that are adjacent 
to an existing commercial use which is a um a a   quick food store convenience store so uh as as we 
mentioned the the request is consistent with the   future land use map there is no no inconsistency 
with the comprehensive plan I did that evaluation   um this is considered infield development because 
there is development surrounding it it's not um   Lea frog development it's not sprawl it's in an 
area that's already developed um and so it's a   vacant property underutilized that will be used as 
a um well a Dollar General Store a Dollar General   market so it will have grocery to it it's not 
just the uh convenience portion of it um your   your staff has indicated also that the um that 
it's not consistent with the Land Development   code because um we talk about compatibility and 
we talk about um the HDR and the hdmu and the   commercially Zone properties and that they are um 
there's nothing next to it similar well I submit   to you there is something next to it similar 
it's that it's that food store that that food   mart that's next door and as your hdmu requires 
the intermixing of uses um that are customary if   if you're requiring that to be part of your zoning 
category um but the area in the vicinity is mostly   residential I think there's a house of worship in 
the area and then this commercial use how does one   start the intermixing if we can't get take that 
first step if if we have an area that's suitable   for this type of development um I submit that 
we should allow it with the appropriate buffers   probably in excess in excess setbacks because of 
the the size of the property um to allow for the   the um compatibility and the consistency 
uh of the site with the surrounding uses   you know today if somebody came in they 
could develop the whole entire 6.6 Acres   there would be something AB buding um all of 
the all of the sides um so that might not be   as compatible as what we could do with the 
excess buffers and setbacks and again this   isn't a high-rise building it's a it's a it's a 
22 foot store um so and we also have reviewed your   um your engineering specialist who prepared a memo 
that said there were had no concerns regarding the   proposed development uh so we would submit to you 
that this is consistent with your Land Development   regulations this is something that is much needed 
in the neighborhood um these stores do not locate   unless they've done a full analysis of of the need 
and what what couldn't couldn't happen here and so   we would submit that you find this um consistent 
with your Land Development regulations and your   comprehensive plan as staff has indicated and 
we request approval of the site of the request   all right thank you does uh any of the board 
members have questions at this time for the   applicant I will say um the the development 
company is here and I think they want to say   a few words about the proposal also okay uh we'll 
go ahead and we'll take them um we've got uh Josh   huffstetler huffstetler um Jennifer Bell Gary 
Watson and Tyler gray Bill are we all speaking   or just I may be able to speak on their behalf and 
then a lot of them are professionals that work for   us that could answer some questions I got you and 
Josh I could have you uh go ahead and get sworn in yes sir I do all right so my name is Josh 
huffstetler um I reside at 160 well uh my   business is at 165 bigar Drive in Thomasville 
Georgia um I'm the applicant uh the you know   potential developer of this property um I'm 
president of Tera Moore Development of course   we've been here uh I started 18 plus years ago 
and I've had a lot of success around this area   um Pensacola uh was the first uh Dollar General 
location I built and since then we've opened over   500 locations um I wanted to just kind of give 
you a brief rundown and I won't take up a lot of   time I'm not a big talker or anything but um on 
from our perspective in selecting this location   and some of the things that we've done to try 
to adapted to the community because at the end   of the day you know in all the stores that we've 
opened um I'm a firm believer that it's important   for us to partner with the communities um I 
mean gosh you guys know more than anything that   we can fill a room with those in opposition 
really quick uh there's a lot of stores um   it's not always the most fun job but at the end of 
the day I want to do it better than most um and so   in this scenario you know if we attempt to find a 
location that Dollar General wants to a store um   we always look for something that's already zoned 
appropriately and unfortunately in this scenario   that the property just wasn't available um zoned 
and so we uh we looked at the site and obviously   not wanting to put a square peg in a round hole um 
we obviously targeted this one it was available um   and it was next to a convenience store um as aara 
pointed out the convenience stor is unfortunately   not zoned appropriately for its use but at the 
end of the day it is a convenient store and so   we just thought that you know the the match suited 
the area um so that it wouldn't be considered spot   zoning and uh one thing that I do like to do 
whenever I can stretch the dollar is go into a   situation and try to address our developments to 
suit the community as much as possible so as AA   pointed out in this case we have an excess amount 
of property that we just we we really do not need   um and so you know offers were made to deed it to 
the county uh at the end of the day you know I I   don't care what happens to it I am a developer um 
so I like to see the property utilized um you know   if right now our consideration for it is just to 
leave it Green Space forever um and I know this   is quasi judicial you know I believe we can place 
conditions on it things like that but I don't mind   conditioning it to a deed restriction that leaves 
it Green Space forever um but the layout of our   site in relation to the customers um that are 
nearest our development is such that they would   never see the deel velopment and I understand 
because again I've built over 500 of these and   sometimes we have 500 people show up in opposition 
sometimes we only have a handful um you know it   I want to sleep at night and so going into this 
one a few of the considerations that that we've   taken I think the best one is the buffer um 
we've got four acres of green space so that   any of the surrounding residents would never see 
our project um we went ahead and dressed up the   store uh so it's not your standard Dollar General 
uh that's you know got the split face block and   then the rest of it metal um in this case because 
we have such a large buffer the only side that is   metal is the very back but nobody's going to see 
that side of this St um because of all the green   space and so the upgrades include uh your split 
face block around the bottom like three and A2   ft and then from that all the way to the Eve is 
going to be a Hardy laap sighting which you know   in my opinion is a good look look especially for 
surrounding residential uses um importantly for   this project is that it's not your standard Dollar 
General um again I've built over 500 stores 98%   of those stores are your standard Dollar General 
that's going to have the yellow signage and all   of that um this is a Dollar General mini market 
is what they consider it and so it's more of a   grocery store it's geared towards grocery the 
entire fixture layout uh has shifted around so   that the second you walk in the store you have you 
they've moved all the coolers and the produce and   you've got meat selections and it's all right 
there in your face um and and I would say that   probably 70% of the store is devoted to grocery 
in these Min markets um the signage is actually   green and with a little bit of yellow Dollar 
General and so um you know what they're doing   as a company is diversifying and finding a little 
niche they can do these small grocery locations   where it makes sense where there's not you know 
a big anchor grocer right around the corner and   so I know this isn't land use specific but uh 
important topics to note when we're you know   considering rezoning a property and its impacts 
that it could have on the surrounding uh community   and residents and um trying to think any other 
uh topics I I may need to bring up in regards uh   you know to the property itself I so far in terms 
of opposition we may find some today I'm not sure   there's others that have uh raised their hand to 
speak um I'm an open book and I love uh having   neighborhood meetings um you know meeting with uh 
anyone that's willing to try to adapt our project   to earn their their um you know commitment to be a 
good customer for our locations and so um I would   just want to offer up to anyone that's here um to 
please reach out to me after this meeting and I   would love to have that conversation um I don't 
have the easiest job in the world I build a lot   of Dollar Generals again I get a lot of opposition 
uh to those projects at the end of the day I don't   think there's a tremendous amount of opposition 
to this one and I love that situation um but if   there is anyone that wants to reach out um I would 
certainly be more than willing to entertain any   thoughts they have on our project as long as 
it's you know just you've got to stop you've   got to kill this thing because I do have a job at 
the of the day and it's to see this through and   hopefully we can do that thank you any questions 
any questions from the board um for the applican   or their representative not at this time all right 
we might get y'all back up here but all right   thank you staff if we could uh go ahead and have 
your presentation at this time um before we get   started I I want to clear what the process going 
forward um um and and they're trying to CH in   that with the rezonings and I know y all y'all 
are agree we cannot we're not focusing on just   this case on this specific use we have to look 
at all of the potential uses as well this is and   I and and and and no disrespect to to to to the 
Dollar General we we we work together well but   I have resoning is a it's a different Spectrum so 
I want to make sure that we focus on the resoning   not the boa if it's approved the boa can get into 
the pacifics but this is the reone in which dollar   joural may not decide to go somewhere else so 
if it is reone all of the potential uses can   definitely have an impact on the area so I want 
to state that for the record going forward which   I know all y'all know but we just want to be clear 
going forward thank you okay board okay so this is   the resoning at 5200 and 5600 Blue Angel Parkway 
requesting MDR to hdmu so on the consistent with   the comprehensive plan um in this in the gam 
County comprehensive plan and its implementing   document the Land Development code the county must 
consider the issues of compatibility of adjacent   uses in determining the suitability of development 
projects the hdmu allows the in an allowed zoning   category for uses of density within the mix use 
uh Suburban incompatible development is defined   as development is proposed to be constructed next 
to existing development wherein the proximity   of the two kinds of development would either 
diminish the usefulness of the other or would   be detrimental to existing operations which can 
arise from either land use or structure size and   design the int the intensity of the proposed 
resoning request is incompatible with the low   impact low intensity residential development in 
the area infill is determined as development of   new housing or other land uses on vacant or 
underutilized land in existing development   areas which focuses on the ReUse and reposition 
of obsolete or underutilized buildings and sites   the property does not meet the definition of 
infield development and the staff cannot support   the assertion that this is infield development 
because of the commercial uses that are allowed by   the hdmu staff determined that the request hdmu 
is not consistent with the comprehensive plan so criteria B consistent with the zoning Provisions the proposed amendment is not 
consistent with the intent and purpose of the   Land Development code so the residential uh uses 
in the in the MDR are basically are limited to   single family uh development whereas the hdmu is 
a mix of high density residential and compatible   non-residential uses and where the inter mixing of 
the uses have been custom and some Redevelopment   is probable hdmu district is appropriate to 
provide transition between areas zoned or used   for medium or high density residential and area 
zoned are used for commercial but still there   are no HDR hdmu or commercial Zone properties 
adjacent to the subject parcel the property   does not meet the location criteria as stated in 
the hdmu zoning District Blue Angel Parkway is a   state road and FD will do the review and have 
any uh and comments for any access or traffic issues criteria C compatible with the surrounding uses so compatibility is not considered with 
any non-conforming or unapproved uses so the   request to rezone to hdmu is not compatible with 
the surrounding residential uses in the area   there are no other commercial uses adjacent 
to the subject parcel with the exception of   the legal non-conforming use of the 
convenience store which has been in   operation for the past decade or more the 
bulk of commercial businesses are located   at the M major intersections to the north 
which would be softly fielded and to the   South lilan Highway hamu zonings will allow high 
density residential development as well as a mix   of neighborhood retail sales and services 
the applicant stated that out of the 6.5   Acres the front 2.5 acres would be developed 
leaving the large buffer area that abuts the   residential subdivision undeveloped the additional 
buffering above the County requirements will   provide greater separation between residential 
and Commercial development additionally buffering   will minimize or eliminate adverse impacts on 
any adjoining residential uses but the and the mind um so criteria D Spot zoning the request 
to hdmu would be considered spot doning as   there are no adjacent Parcels that are hdmu 
therefore extending the Privileges that are   not generally granted to other properties in 
similar in the location of the area criteria   e approved uh with change or change conditions 
there is growth happening along Blue Angel to the   South however the land uses or development 
conditions surrounding the subject parcel   have not changed the request to rezone would 
allow more intense development along Blue Angel   and the permitted uses of the hdmu may not 
be suitable to coexist with the residential   uses in the area and that's staff's findings 
are there any questions from the board for staff real real quick Mr chair Horus here we are again um feel like this is reminiscent 
of another uh issue we had where the only   difference was that the zoning was commercial it 
was much closer to Comm to residential um in fact   on all four sides single family homes would you 
agree that this is also we're here and in a bit of   a quandry because of the fact that we didn't label 
these until 95 and now here we are in Blue Angel   Parkway with an MDR uh in a in a situation that 
could be argued either way with the non-conforming   use directly next it's right next door and my 
question to use this is before we failed and if I   recall the attorney was fairly smugg and saying 
I'm want to get this approved no matter what   and he did and I'm sure that the store has been 
suffering because I won't go in there at all uh   but um it was I was simply opposed because of the 
the proximity and it to me it was clearly not uh   in the right place this one I have to say um allor 
you've done a great job with your presentation   I sat and I don't think I've ever done as much 
preparedness for for a meeting as this one and put   both of them out and went through them and I have 
to say her presentation is fantastic um I'm having   a hard time uh you guys usually equip us with your 
your backup and you know this is a tough one how   how do we avoid I I look forward to hearing 
from the the public but I mean last time we   had a desire it didn't matter they rolled over us 
and that had to do with the zoning because it was   commercial this one is not but how can you deny 
that we're I mean non-conforming or not we have   to consider that and that is part of our our our 
our are privy that we are to use our brain matter   here and there is a functioning gas station right 
next door if I may unfortunately unfortunately we   have to look at the black and white language 
of the Land Development code the language of   the code not not what we think not what we feel 
but the black and white language of the Land   Development code and the code is clear it states 
that and n and with non-conforming uses that's one   the criteria that you cannot consider that as a 
criteria for a resoning case because with the Land   Development code and the law and the comprehensive 
plan and the smart principles of non-conformance   if a non-conforming use goes out of business 
basically the purpose of is to eliminate or   make it conforming that is the black and white l 
language of the Land Development code regardless   how much we may think or feel but the black and 
white language is what prevailed now if you look   at this map if you look at the map if you look at 
this map I do not with this large with this Large   review of low density residential of MDR B Blue 
Angel perhaps was a state but in that area it was   primarily and predominantly this was not a this 
was not a flip this was a predominant this portion   was a predominantly residential low impact area 
and the reason for that is that you don't want to   create urban sprawl that is the reason now now and 
those are set aside smart growth legally contested   principles with such a SL clth there's no way the 
county would have have have upzoned those because   it would have it would have been spot zoned it 
would have been erroneous because that portion   is is was clearly prior to the ccat study that we 
was involved in prior to the map changes that we   were involved in that was clearly R1 or R2 that 
is low density residential it was a it was a   seamlessly conversion so so and you see all those 
residential developments that is a budding you see   all those local streets that's there so so I I 
do understand what you may be saying but based   upon the rules that we have to go by based upon 
the language of the Land Development code what it   says and the competent substantial evidence that's 
why staff could not provide the support yes many   theories but with resoning we have to look at the 
language of the comprehensive plan and the now if   you all want to refute that that's your decision 
but we got to go by what the law says what the   code says compatibility now it was brought about 
it was brought about compatibility compatibility   is an issue that was referenced inside the 
comprehensive plan black and white language   there's a definition for compatibility and also 
Florida statute 163 it states that compatibility   for the safe of consistency it has to be looked at 
for intensity density and uses and the definition   of compatibility is that if a potential use 
can have a detrimental impact so you got the   low density R you got MDR plus it's surrounded by 
a subdivision is surrounded by homes so so we're   just not focusing on what we think maybe feel 
good what but we got to look at we got to look at   what's the existing land uses and what out there 
so is a comp compatible is it moving towards that   could it grow and it's not this area is premature 
it is not growing so so I I know the case that   you referring to ke but we cannot consider the 
legal non-conformance asset criteria we can't so   interestingly enough it it almost seems as though 
staff I'm not saying that I'm not putting words   in your mouth but it almost be preferable to have 
a home builder come in there and jam you know 10   houses per acre on I'm just saying by conforming 
so I I want speakers neighbors to remember this   and I'm I'm again I can't I'm not for or against 
on this I I think this is a very interesting case   okay to think about what if if pick your poison 
what's going to go next door whereas the currently   they're stating and I know we cannot take this 
in you can uh uh consideration except for the   fact that there's some unbelievably gorgeous 
oak trees on on that Backlot that if I were   a neighbor I'd love for them to De it to my HOA 
so that we could keep it as a buffer but um that   as opposed to putting in as many houses as say a 
builder could put on that particular spot is that   that's what would be acceptable correct a Housing 
Development right there basically basically MDR   MDR is it's a residential use MDR residential can 
go for residential yes that zoning category does   allow for MDR residential which is consistent with 
ldr that that would be that would be a compatible   consistent residential development pattern 
that whole area Mr pow is a residential much   respect for for the team but this whole area is 
a residential low impact area portion and that's   and that's and that's what's on the ground now and 
now and now to to come about to try to when it if   it's not planned in that direction we got to look 
at right now the future yes her presentation was   very well done but again she's working for her 
client but we have to look at I got to provide a   balance the Land Development code the black and 
white language because if this ever challenge I   got to be able to support this position and and 
and this is Staff position regardless we may not   always agree but this is the we cannot find 
what this meet the criteria the spot zoning   is not compatible with the surrounding uses now 
the fut land use category does allow for mixed   use Suburban but we got to look at suitability 
compatibility and the what's around there and   preserving the Integrity of that area those are 
things that we have to look at when we when we go   to these type of putting commercial right next 
up to residential this what we have to look at respectfully did you want to add something in 
there I do want to add some things but I also have   a first I would like a point of clarification in 
Allison's presentations under the findings on page   two of her analysis um the last sentence there I 
would like to mention that states staff determines   that the request to hdmu is not inconsistent I 
believe she said not consistent but it states   not inconsistent with the comprehensive plan if 
I could finish please um I also would like to   highlight the definition of infill that is in that 
same paragraph which states infill is defined as   development of new housing or other land uses 
on vacant or underutilized land in existing   development areas which focuses on the ReUse and 
reposition of obsolete or underz underutilized   buildings and sites which I submit to you that's 
what this is doing that this that this definition   meets exactly what we're doing so that her 
statement saying this is not inconsistent with   the plan is correct um assuming that definition 
is what it is the black and white words that is   what we are doing today I would submit to you that 
also the high density mixed use District in the   black and white also allows for retail sales 
services and professional offices um and and   other non-residential uses so if a a developer 
came in today and did want to clear the entire   parcel for non-residential uses as long as that 
development met the requirements of the code it   would not even be for you it would be approved um 
on that Merit so I I I I just want to accentuate   what um Mr pile was saying that somebody could 
come in and clear this whole 6.6 Acres that's   not what this developer wants to do they want 
to do what's right for the community they want   to keep that buffer behind um so excuse 
me so that there is um a not not a not an   incompatible issue going on here with the adjacent 
residential uses and just for the sake of Cl   to correct the record MD zoning does not allow 
for commercial development it does not so the only   thing that would be consistent with compatible 
in the MDR zoning category would be a residential   development pattern yes it should have been not 
consistent that was thank you for the correction   not consistent so so it it so an infield 
development yes it is a it is it it is a tool that   we looks at all the time but but you cannot have 
in this area infield that is sporadic you can't   you just can't have sporadic infield if there 
was a logical development pattern of commercial   infield development perhaps that could be a 
consideration but again that that store that's   been a long time basically that's a non-conforming 
use and the whole again the whole area here if you   look at the maps the existing land use map the 
area map we did we we did observation out there   I'm understand the suitability of this APLE of 
land Mr P that's all I'm saying so MDR right   now you cannot clear it for commercial MD allows 
for residential uses only and the high density   mix shes we're just not focusing on the store we 
focus on all the potential uses and the densities   the densities is a challenge as well so that's 
what we looking at respectfully staff can you   put up the use the allowable uses for 
hdmu because that is what we ultimately   are looking at I can't say that this board 
cannot take in consideration for a singular   development on those are also in the 
findings too yes thank you Mr benen I   mean because ultimately at the end of the day 
we're talking about the entire 6.59 acres here or the applicant alluded to the fact that um 
upon initial contact with the county that they   were looking at going to a commercial for the 
rezoning in this case and we're told by staff   to go to hdmu is that sound accurate I I wasn't 
aware she said it was yes yes sir um she came   in and and she uh provided an application for 
commercial and then once the division managers   and the senior planners we all looked at it and 
the commercial was more intense in their uses   and the commercial uses are way more intense 
than the current MDR ldr in the area so we   suggested that they could do the uh go down to 
hdmu um for their request for resoning versus   commercial M Nills was it your understanding that 
by that recommendation provided by staff that you   would maybe get a more favorable uh opinion and 
what you've gotten from staff today so knowing   that they can't make a promise to a decision 
a board is going to going to make but we did   we've had discussions for months so this wasn't 
um a decision to apply on November 20th and then   we were having discussions prior to that and the 
original discussion was to uh apply for commercial   and understanding that there might be some concern 
with the intensity of that use and that therefore   at a public hearing then we could downgrade to 
the hdmu to help appease the situation um but   once we applied for commercial then the thought 
process changed and we were asked to change our   application to hdmu which is what we did okay 
and for those of us keeping score after the   clarification on Criterion a we now stand at zero 
criteria being met of the five basically basically   at this point basically at this point we we we we 
looked at this very carefully we looked at it very   carefully and and they mentioned about subdividing 
the property again that's why we don't want you to   site pacifics we looked at that to do that that's 
why we have to look at the whole gam of the code   we cannot create non-conforming Lots when you 
subdividing so all of those things was looked at   that's what but we didn't we don't want to get 
into those details right now but they mentioned   it that would have been that would have been 
some other challenges would have occurred so   which is a little confusing to me because we never 
indicated we would create a non-conforming lot we   were going to leave enough egress and e um Ingress 
and egress on one side to reach the back portion   but again again it was state that they want to 
split the lot and when you split Lots you got to   create non-conforming you got to create everything 
got to be but that's not neither here or there so   I just want except for the record since they 
bought it out okay um aside from that before   we hear from the public for their sake I know 
you see a sign go up you're concerned there's   something new coming it's going to change life 
I want to go talk about it as it stands right   now with the current zoning a housing developer 
could Target that property purchase it and build   60 homes as long as it was compliant with uh 
boa that for for a subdivision that would be   the gross density MD want to be infrstructure all 
that I get that retention we want to be clear 50   40 50 I'm I'm going to get as a developer the 
most houses out of it that I can get and I can   get 10 du use right now with the zoning let me 
let's be clear with words is very very important   that zoning the gross density does allow for 
that but whether or not they could get that I   yeah understood granted another that's another one 
clear definitely more than 6,000 square feet worth   of Home and Car traffic would be more but anyway 
I cannot say that because you can't we so so let's   be clear those are things that's speculation so 
we want to be clear with the record all right um   I'll let you add something before we go to the 
sorry I know I should jump up thank you um I   if we failed to include anything I take full 
responsibility for this it would be the site   plan in our application and I do think it's 
critical for y'all to see it so if I could enter   it for the record it uh so I'll I'll say this 
um we can we can have a vote on that it's not   something that we can use in evidence um to make 
our decision today unfortunately um but if the   board wants to look at it we can do that but it 
it wouldn't be anything that would really hurt or   help your case to be honest the intent would just 
simply be to illustrate the property that would   be deed restricted to Greens space so it could 
never be developed um and that's what the site   plan reflects it shows our 2.5 acres in relation 
to what would become the four acres of Green Space   deed restricted or I love the idea of deeding 
it to the HOA if if that was appropriate um   board I'm sure the board is aware that the board 
cannot consider uh any site plan or anything like   that for their decision for that reason i' advise 
that it shouldn't be entered into evidence unless board that's fine a I appreciate it but again 
it it won't help you hurt you one way or the   other so um if this goes through it will happen 
you know the man of my word thank you okay all   right um we'll move on to the public unless 
there's any other questions up here which I   don't think there are and for those members of 
the public wish to speak on this matter please   note that the planning board bases our decisions 
uh on the approval conditions and exceptions uh   that we've described earlier those five criteria 
and during our deliberations the planning board   will not consider General statements of 
support or opposition accordingly please   limit your testimony to the approval conditions 
and exceptions described in section 2- 7.2 and   please note that those individuals um only those 
individuals who speak here today will be able to   speak at the board of County Comm commission uh 
meeting when they make their final decision so   if you haven't filled one of these out which 
I would imagine that you all have if you're   uh want to speak on this um we do have more 
forms in the back of the room um as you come   forward I'll ask you to State your full name 
and address for the record and be sworn in   um so we've got David Cohen is our first Speaker 
today you'll have three minutes and uh just name   and address for the record and be sworn in my name 
is David Cohen I live at 5780 Scotland Court your right the truth Tru I do um can we put my uh 
address up there so you know exactly where   I'm talking [Music] from on Scotland Court up in 
the corner over keep going over over right there   that's my house I bought that back in 2008 been 
there for quite some time when we were looking   around at the house we noticed the whole backyard 
was nothing but woods and thought hey this is   great this is where I want to raise my kids and 
my grandkids we raised our grandkids there took   them out in the woods did all the stuff you do 
we've got a a pool right there in the corner   and that was the thing that when I looked at I 
said okay this is good but one day there could   be houses and I could accept that but now with 
this if they put the Dollar General there and   you go out in my backyard there's a pool there's 
Dollar General nobody's going to want to ever buy   that it's just not an investment that you want 
to make because of how it affects your property   value and I Googled it and it said Dollar Generals 
tend to make property values go down 16 to 21% so   that's that's my displeasure with that and putting 
houses in there is going to make my property go up   because that house in 2000 or 1973 when it was 
built sold for 20 $26,000 and I just refinanced   it and it's it's worth 220 now so it is a a sign 
a significant investment that I made and I hope to   continue that it grow so that when I retire in 
about five or six years and go to sell it that   it'll sell based upon being a residential area 
and not a house that has the Dollar General in the   backyard and that's that's really to me the the 
big issue is putting that that there because there   is a Dollar General 1.7 miles down on softly field 
and then there's another Dollar General 2.7 miles   down off lilan Iowa so we we have enough Dollar 
Generals and to me it's like leave it leave it as   it is because we also uh we raised birds par cars 
they have a very susceptible respiratory system   and if all of a sudden we have diesel 18 wheelers 
coming into the back of a Dollar General and leave   their engines idly that creates fumes that can 
drift over into where we keep our very expensive   birds that could be susceptible to that we are 
licensed we have a fish and wildli uh permit   to raise the birds we pay taxes on our our income 
that when we sell the birds so it would kind of be   affecting us that way also that is a retirement 
income that we're slowly building up so when it   comes to retire we can fall back on selling our 
Birds because we do ship them domestically across   the country we advertise on the internet and we 
get buyers from all over the country so because   of that it would be detrimental to affect it 
so that we can't do that anymore thank you uh   all right next we've got uh Sandra gold if you 
please state your name and address for the record   and be sworn in hi Sandra gold 57 ad Scotland 
Court Pensacola right stim truth truth yes hi um   I'll just kind of expand on um what David said um 
okay I'll just expand on what David just said um   I'm his wife we live at 57 Scotland so you see 
we're right this is a budding our property we   bought this home um 17 years ago um our plan was 
to like he said raise our family we've taken on   four grandchildren that we've had to take custody 
and I'm adopting my youngest one this is where   they're growing up um putting a Dollar General 
in there concerns me um I have some people that   I know with other Dollar Generals in the what 
it brings to the area in terms of traffic um   a lot of things I'm not attacking Dollar General 
but any business of that nature and that size um   undesirable activities um just a lot of things 
we're residential um you know and and they want   to highlight that oh we're not going to develop 
develop the back four acres or whatever I'm a   budded right up at the front to that this is going 
to completely impact My Life um the small income   that I've started started generating so that I can 
raise my family and you know we retire in a few   years I've invested a significant amount of money 
into my well they were a hobby but now they're   um a small business as well um and I work on 
Conservatory breeding as well for for endangered   species within the Florida Fish and Wildlife 
commission's guidelines I've got all my permitting   I pay um city and state tax but it's a very small 
level but this is what's going to allow me to   survive and allow me to finish raising my family 
and intentions were for our oldest granddaughter   to get out of the Navy and buy the house from us 
in a few years this is upending everything quality   of life in our neighborhood is going to change 
they can say they're not going to develop it   back there and I don't know what what the intent 
is or isn't but what safeguards do I have to keep   people from crawling over a tiny wall they might 
put in that's going to look right into my pool   with my children in it and what about my I've been 
there 17 years that little teeny convenience store   they're talking about is Tiny with two pumps it 
is not anything substantial it's just a little   convenience thing that's been there for a very 
long time I just think that they're encroaching on   what's intended to be a residential area I have no 
problem with a residential neighborhood going back   there Lord knows we all need more housing space 
in the city so you know but single dwelling you   know you don't need huge sto six-story apartment 
buildings back there all that what about those of   us who are right up there on the circle you 
know we pay our taxes we abide by the laws   when do we get considered so it's a little bit 
of an emotional thing with me but that's where   you know thank you all right next we've got 
uh Richard grimmel please state your name and   address for the record and be sworn in Richard 
grimel 1579 you Scotland Court 5790 Scotland Court I do thank you gentlemen first of all I want 
to bring to your attention looking at this notice   that we've got the only it went out only to the 
homeowners that are 500 ft what about the rest   of the subdivision that's going to be impacted 
back in 1996 this exact same property was up for   housing it was stopped because again myself went 
and talk to every single neighbor got them to 63   people to show up in me sorry uh the main thing 
that held it up is the traffic the main thing   they could not do is it told them they had to have 
a traffic light there and the owner that bought   the property did not want to pay $100,000 for that 
property okay the other problem you've got is that   is a flood zone all these houses behind uh David 
and Sandra going all the way down water is like a   river coming down the back of that property uh I 
understand they're going to try and put a holding   part in there there's so much water that goes 
through there it comes in waves about two feet   back side of the houses okay so that holding Pond 
even if they do put a holding pond in there what's   going to happen when that overflows the street 
behind us is at current those homes are being   flooded the water's going right straight 
through their garages okay so looking at   it I'm trying to get some idea of what's going 
on my house was paid for I bought that house   back in 1978 it isn't going to be my retirement 
home I'm 75 have no intention on retiring yet   okay but I just want to voice my opinion just 
there's going to have to be a traffic light if   you're coming down from pineforest Road you're 
heading towards the Naval Base to get into our   subdivision they have moved the street out 14 
feet because people were coming down hitting   the sign that said Yorkshire estate which is our 
subdivision broke those uh brick walls and kept   running into the house there that's why they 
moved it out so meaning we have got to come   down from Pine Forest that is a very hard turn 
coming into our subdivision slowing down hoping   you don't get hit the worst problem is coming 
from the naval base if you go to turn into our   subdivision you are turning into a a turning lane 
of cars going to C well we've got to get in there   to our own subdivision we're in that turn lane 
for the oncoming traffic so something's going   to have to be done there there's already been 
three young ladies that were killed there with   a truck coming in from a naval base that the girls 
were in the turn lane hit them and knocked them   all the way into our subdivision and killed 
them so these are things we need to look at   thank you Mr trffic and with uh traffic lights 
yes sir thank you thank you uh next we've got   Bradford grimmel please come forward state your 
name and address for the record and be sworn in Bradford grimel 5790 Scotland Court you saw 
stim truth whole truth I do um same of the some   of the same concerns with traffic uh if as 
mentioned if you from Scotland Road out in   Blue Angel if you're trying to exit the neighbor 
neighborhood right now um traffic is already an   issue you know we talk about what become more 
of an issue but it's an issue right now it can   easily take you 10 minutes to come get out of 
the neighborhood coming into the neighborhood   taking a left there is no turning lane um so it's 
already dangerous um as we just mentioned where   you're trying to cut across oncoming traffic 
you're in their turning lane um there was some   past history discussing a traffic light so 
if we add you know a Dollar General yes you   know that's some more traffic how much worse is 
that going to make that also a little concerned   about these uh 4 acres in the back if if the 
high density zoning then allows Apartment 10   units per uh anre to be put there then that that 
compounds of trafficing even even more so so just   just concern the the hazards and what that's 
going to do to the area from a mainly a traffic perspective and that that's pretty much have 
all right thank you I think I skipped over   Linda segman sorry I just just realized 
that so I'll get you up here next if   you stick your name and address for the 
record and be sworn in Linda samon 5620 C Road my family has lived on cery road since the 
70s and I've seen it grow and grow in that area   of Belleview um we are in low density area and we 
are surrounded by medium density area and I really   do not want high density in this area um I enjoy 
living in my Pleasant low density residential   neighborhood and I'm concerned that the rezoning 
will change the character of the local area this   rezoning will bring more people more traffic 
safety issues and more noise um it will also   decrease our property values and this Zone will 
significantly impact traffic there is a deadly   Corner within a few yards of this proposal the 
traffic is already congested in this area please   do not allow the zone change to high density 
thank you thank you uh next we've got Andrew BL   please come forward state your name and address 
for record and be sworn in we get your time started Andrew BL 6101 modus place I do good morning I'm here basically to 
hopefully talk y'all then not resoning anything   I don't want you to reone anything um the the the 
stupid mistakes that the county has done in the   past is going forward all right Blue Angel Parkway 
when y'all did all the rezoning on that why wasn't   that Zone commercial to begin with because y'all 
went through softly field or whatever and zoned   all that on softly field commercial and y'all came 
in there okay it's they came in there with the   Dollar General and the DRC didn't do anything that 
they should have done so so everything y'all say   oh we did our part or whatever then the DRC you've 
got horse here or whatever and the county staff or   whatever is doing their part to help people out 
I guess but it ain't helping out the citizens   in there if you look at that Dollar General on uh 
softly field and mold dun totally messed up that's   a residential area they put the Dollar General 
in there because somebody rezoned it commercial   and y'all didn't have a say in that because that 
was back in the 90s or whatever you said oh salty   Fields commercial let's do it commercial all right 
if you go in there and look at that Dollar General   the holding Pond is way too small the driveways 
are too close to the intersection they got trash   Heap in the back of the Dollar General there that 
degrades the value of everybody I mean they got I   call it a trash he I mean it's like bread racks 
I mean how can they have so many bread racks or   whatever it is the trucks pull in there and 
dump off their trash there nobody wants that   there on Blue Angel the traffic on softly field 
that should been five Lane on softly field just   like they got you got Michigan comes there and it 
should be five Lane on softly field all the way   to Blue Angel the county says that ain't their 
Road so what are we going to do that's a state   road I think it's supposed to be a Federal Road 
but the county hasn't negotiated anything with   the federal government or the state to fix that 
road how much money have we spent on Blue Angel   Parkway having uh traffic survey on that I don't 
know how many millions and millions of dollars   they've done on Blue Angel Parkway is it five 
Lane there Blue Angel no I don't think anything   should be reson commercial or on Blue Angel but 
it's sure is that way now I mean the only part   that's five lane or four lane or whatever is down 
there by the the back gate of NES Pensacola so I   say nothing needs to be reson and let all these 
here real estate lawyers go to the bard of County   Commissioners and say hey get off your Hinds and 
get this here County thank you Mr greck way thank   you Chris CB we'll have you up next you just 
state your name and address for the record and   be sworn in and that was the last person I had 
signed up for this case I didn't know if there   was anybody else okay are you are you Mary konopka 
okay all right um I'll get you up here next all right Chris curb uh I'm with flood Defenders I 
previously uh let me get you just sworn in real quick absolutely I'm all about I'm all about 
the truth brother and your address Chris and   then we'll get your time going uh my address 
is 5999 Somerset Drive P Florida uh I would   like to uh remind the board that uh I think 
at one of the former uh resoning meetings I   was uh certified as an expert and storm water and 
Engineering um for the record um I just wanted to   make a real quick comment I'm not for or against 
this um but I I did want to make some comments on   some history about flooding in this area and 
uh I already know the response cuz I hear it   all the time is oh that's going to be handled 
by development review process well if your   development review process doesn't allow the 
public to come in an initial review and make   comments or final review then how is it going to 
be addressed there is some historical flooding   on Perkins and turkey road which I believe is 
Dow gradient of this property under your section   e this little handout y'all put out it says 
appropriate with changed or CH changing conditions   if your land use development conditions within the 
area surround the property of resoning have change   the changes are to such a degree and character 
that it is in a the public interest to allow New   Uses density or intensity in the area through 
rezoning and the permanent uses of the proposed   District are appropriate and not premature for 
the area likely to create a contribute to spraw   public interest is what I wanted to point out 
storm water flooding and drainage is public interest I actually think y'all's rules should be 
revised because you just had a resoning get kicked   back for the third time on Belleview because of 
flooding mention that so uh that was zoning case 2024-the law quasi judicial system you 
can rely on other cases am I correct attorney the board can look at its previous 
decisions in some capacity but each decision   is independent and fact intensive okay well I 
just want to get that on the record too thank   you thank CH thanks Chris all right next we've 
got uh Mary kopka if you could just please come   forward state your name and address for the record 
and be sworn in and we'll get your time started my name is Mary kopka I live at 
6248 moldun Road Pinacle Florida 32526 I do clock going um I'm here to back up 
the resident in the BW area um especially those   that have been there a long time they purchased 
their properties with lots of room around them   woods behind them little traffic and we love it 
that's why we bought it long long ago and now it   just seems like developers are snatching up every 
little piece of land they can find to build stuff   on and that is the traffic is horrible it's 
gotten horrible the floodings gotten worse   and worse and worse so many impervious surfaces 
now the water has nowhere to go except inside   the houses or swamping yards so your septic 
tank doesn't work so I do stand behind these   folks here um I bought there a long time ago and 
um that's why I bought lots of room Woods I love it oh we have another speaker second uh are 
you with the applicant group sir yes okay so we   have a pink sheet on you Philip Walker no Gary 
Watson Gary Watson sorry oh Gary Watson yes got Gary Watson 1308 East Barcelona 
North Barcelona stre uh Street Pensacola Florida I do yes I'd like to 
point out something that's   sort of the foundation of this whole problem yeah okay the the root of the problem 
here in my opinion is if you go back   in the records and look at the 
convenience store it was built 1973 zoning went into effect in 1988 the county at that time zoned at something 
today it's called ldr even lower density than   medium density if that convenience store 
had been zon properly when the zoning went   into effect in 88 we would we wouldn't be having 
this conversation because it would be a property   adjoining another commercial property so I say 
you need to fix something that was broken a long   time ago thank you all right uh thank you very 
much can I well uh I guess y Josh if I may uh   again Josh Hof Stellar uh I just want to take 
the opportunity to reiterate to the um you know   Community behind me that uh I would love to speak 
with any and all of you after this meeting and I   have I've got some great ideas um to preserve the 
green space as we've discussed um to modify our   plan um in a manner that you know appeases you 
as much as possible I do understand that that's   an impossible task ask um but I can promise you 
I'll do everything that I can um because the next   developer may not and so all I ask is please 
take the opportunity thank you all right thank   you Josh uh board are there any questions that 
we've got um for staff or the applicant or even   members of the public at this time Mr Walker 
I I want to I want to say something very very short the density is an issue high density 
makes you will allow for 25 dwelling units   per acre Mr Eric you stated that if they if 
they if they get stay with MDR if they go   to MDR if they go to hdmu that allows for 
more density it's a MTI family allows for   apartments as well so that's why we just can't 
focus on this one use we have to look at all the   potential uses and the black and white language 
of the Land Development code when considering   these res zonings thank you and Mr Speaker to Mr 
fear's point though currently as it is it's 10 per   acre correct yes correct so and I understand 
and you're right it could be 25 per acre the public the developers just offered uh I 
just think it's interesting that um look   at the who you've got on hand now and 
he's correct that the next guy may not   take such a position Jonathan um do we have 
any sewer infrastructure maps for this I no sir I don't know I don't know but in the and these 
type of uh cases with resoning that that is a s   pafic issue so we need to Angel SE okay public 
water and sewer and this would be tapped into sewer all right any more questions for 
uh applicant or staff at this time if not then um is there anything that staff 
or the applicant would like to add to their testimony okay then I will uh entertaining a 
motion to open up discussion one way or the   other uh anybody would like to take a stab at 
it I mean I'm going to keep going back to the   zoning overall here I mean we cannot look 
at the actual development we have to look   at all possible things with hdmu here and 
with this map and that's what's throwing   me off I know that there's a logic here of the 
existing convenience store there and it sucks   because we've had similar cases in the past 
but the problem is they were next to zoning   that was compliant and they slipt through this 
one I don't have a good answer here the whole   blocks are MDR ldr um and once again we can't go 
by the existing use that's in the code it's not   an ideal situation on a few fronts I'll 
say that um but I go back to the zoning   map here that's what's driving my decision 
I'll say that I don't know about anyone else Jonathan you got your light on yes I I I make a 
motion we follow staff's findings and uh deny the   request for up zoning okay we got a motion do 
we have a second second any discussion on the   motion pardon the interruption but I'd like 
something clarified that the staff findings   there was a typo uh that in the motion that it's 
clarified that it is uh it's not supposed to say   is not inconsistent with the comprehensive plan 
to say is inconsistent with the comprehensive plan   to clarify that when if the 
staff findings are adopted thank you okay discussion on the the motion to 
deny the upzoning request all right all   those in favor of the motion please signify 
by raising your right hand all those opposed   motion carries four to one all right 
that anything F from staff for this a five minute break and then we'll 
start the regular planning board meeting put my earphones con usually this around I we e Mak want I want it e than don't know are we ready or we e all right ready to go all right this meeting of 
the esami County planning board for January 7th   20125 is hereby called to order with six members 
present we do have a quorum do we have proof of   publication yes sir did the publication meet all 
legal requirements yes sir I'll entertain a motion   to wave the reading of the legal advertisement 
motion to wave the reading motion to have a   second second all those in favor please signify 
by raising your right hand all those opposed   planning board meeting minutes for December 
3rd 202 for have been provided to the board   members previously I'll entertain a motion to 
approve uh the planning board meeting minutes   motion and do we have a second second second 
all those in favor please signify by raising   your right hand all those opposed the planning 
board hearing package for January 7th 2025   has been provided to the board members uh I'll 
entertain a motion to accept the board hearing   package and legal advertisement into evidence 
to have a motion so move to have a second second   all those in favor please signify by raising 
your right hand all right and today we have um   a public hearing concerning the review of 
an ordinance amending chapter 1 Article 1   Section 1- 1.2 storm water quantity and chapter 1 
Article 1 Section 1- 1.4a Pond slopes fencing and   maintenance access um so we'll turn this over to 
staff to to run us through this and we do have a   few speakers have signed up uh for this today 
so we'll get to them once we get through this presentation good morning morning I'm not going 
to try to read that to you um and you can thank   me later but the uh the reason we're here today 
is because we've been meeting with our Pac which   is the professional advisory committee that 
leads into your board in other words we meet   with our pack group who are um resident experts 
appointed by and uh they listen to the citizens   of the community that are interested in these 
topics and they make recommendation for us to   go forward with any modifications to code um 
what you're going to see today um let HDR do   a presentation for you of what we uh we summarize 
to uh these changes and then we'll uh go forward   with any further discussion after that so I'll 
let Allan take over from here y'all introduce   yourselves yeah yeah Alan vinon I work with HDR 
engineering I've been with him for about 20 years   uh been doing U stor M and transportation work 
for the county uh during that same time frame I'm   joined by Philip Walker um who's uh been doing 
the same for about 10 years um and uh you know   we do a lot of uh lot of storm water work for the 
county um so the purpose of uh of why we're here   today um engineering staff asked us to to kind 
of help Define what it is we're talking about   when we look at um at the current DSM language 
um and we start talking about things like Old   Dot rainfall data no Atlas 14 what does all that 
mean um so so so the two items we're talking about   is the F IDF uh which which is the old way of of 
quantifying the amount of rainfall that falls over   a certain duration uh you know we talk about 
you know 25 year and 100-year Designs um and   that sort of thing um and then the change to no 
Atlas 14 these are both statistical methods for   determining the amount of rain that falls um so 
we were asked to review the impact on County uh   stormw water Pond design um and so we we put 
together a report uh that went through several   different Alternatives several different land 
uses sever several different so types wet and   dry ponds to determine uh what the change uh 
to no Atlas 14 would um would would require of   County STW water Pond design in the future um so 
we're going to go through some some comparisons   um and you know ultimately we made recommendations 
into that report uh to u to look at some specific   elements of the of the DSM and we made some 
recommendations there so uh it's really a   matter of best available science uh when you look 
at uh the F IDF curves um they were created um in   1979 they were based on data uh and Technical 
reports that were created in the 60s and 70s um   those reports contain stations uh rainfall gauge 
stations from only nine locations in Florida and   most of those were situated in the Miami and 
Jacksonville area um do archived uh this data   in January 2024 next slide so no outlas 14 um 
has a has a broader reach with with regards to   the to the data that that creates these rainfall 
values um the the stations are in six Southeast   States there's nearly 3,000 of them there could be 
3,000 by now um uh the records Encompass from the   1800s all the way to to 2011 um the do drainage 
manual um from 2020 to 20123 uh adopted the use   of no Atlas 14 but still included the old f. IDF 
curves um uh which probably caused a little bit   confusion but they um they still included that 
whole information appendix because that's kind   of the way we always done it right and then in 
2024 um those old IDF curves were removed from   the manual um and and they've now been stamped 
archive not for use and design um so really when   you when when you consider the two um no outlas 
14 would would represent the the best available   science just based on those statistics um so the 
way it works is um you know you you take a dynamic   Point anywhere in the county um and it'll provide 
you uh the Noah's website will provide you with   the with the rainfall values um uh for different 
storm events and different durations and so for   comparison the archived rainfall information 
for 100y year 24-hour event you see it's roughly 13.44% two in and so what we're saying there 
is you know uh by adopting this Pond design uh   would would you know when you're looking at that 
100-year 24-hour event would go to um a 16.2 in   rainfall amount at that specific location which uh 
for for the purposes of this example was a Point   taking a long out of 10 continue so what we did 
like I mentioned is we ran several scenarios to   see what the impact would be um on on County storm 
water Pond design with that increase in rainfall   value so for dry storm water ponds you see it 
represented you know an 8 8 to 10% increase in   pond volume across all the different scenarios we 
ran um 6 to 15% increase in volume for wet ponds   um the biggest increase was uh for dry closed 
Basin storm water ponds those are those those are   ponds that don't have an outfall and so they have 
to have to be larger in order to attenuate all the   or capture all the water that would that would run 
off those sites those we saw the biggest increases   there so summary again the idea here was to kind 
of Define the the two methodologies and what the   best available science is um you know ultimately 
you know we want to use the best data available   um that it also provides the county with national 
consistency on on on what the rest of the nation   is using um the old IDF data hasn't been updated 
in 45 years um it's already been archived by the   state um and uh it obviously provides a higher 
level of resiliency um you know when you consider   uh when you consider future development uh it is 
also logical they haven't stated this yet but it's   logical that federal agencies in the future when 
it comes to when it comes to grant funding would   require um this National Standard to be utilized 
so with that I just kind of wanted to give you an   overview of kind of what was the what's probably 
the biggest question mark in the in the proposed   changes to the DSM uh you know Divine some of 
these terms um if you guys have any questions   feel free I do real quick um I uh so basically 
let's catch up to science right and let's adopt   this and you're making this bigger is there is 
there anything that we can do going forward to   help with handing off said subdivisions or 
or developments with maintenance because   everything is about the pond the size how that 
water is treated from point A to point Z that's   great everything's perfect until you hand it off 
developer sells it he's gone and then you've got   an HOA sitting around and have never heard of what 
they have to do to maintain a pond I saw the first   big stick uh cleaning out a pond the other day 
I almost went over I wanted to hug the guy and   I was like what who told you to do this you know 
I don't think in other words that we're equipping   home owners or uh subdivisions with the knowledge 
or how to maintain and keep these things and I'm   in a subdivision right up next to inter Coastal 
somebody asked me go where's that water coming   from I said really and anyway so I just it to 
me I just think that's something that we've not   done a good again I'm not blaming you or anyone 
else how can we incorporate it into the building   development process for maintenance and upkeep 
going forward and good morning again I I don't   think I even introduced myself and my apologies 
I'm I'm Joy Blackman I'm your County engineer and   that is uh a particular problem that we've been 
dealing with Through The Years A lot of the um   privately maintained subdivisions I prefer that 
they're adopted by the county for maintenance and   we we've tried to encourage that um it's still 
occasionally there are some that remain private   and are required by HOAs to maintain the the qu 
the answer to your question is is a little more   complicated but the good news I suppose is that 
the Water Management District is requiring an   operation and maintenance letter to be signed 
by those HOA so that they understand the cost   annually and the necessary methods that are needed 
to maintain the pond um that's that's just now   beginning through this year and the new water 
quality rule that's coming in next year it'll   get even more complicated but um as I say I prefer 
that even if there's uh you'll see in this where   we're not no longer requiring that they remain 
private just because they don't have a positive   outfall I would prefer the County Tech maintenance 
because we know what's required we have the ms4   which is a permit that's countywide that we have 
to maintain with Water Management District so it's   better that that we do it that way we we're 
held accountable by them and and we have the   equipment and the the ability to do so um the 
Passover to the HOA as it existed in the past   was a generic letter not something that truly 
gave you background and information that would   be much help um so presently we work with any of 
those that are private and try to convert them   But to answer your question the the um it usually 
comes down to a code code violation if you're   noticed of code issues with your ponds then we sit 
down and meet with you and try to try to bring you   up to speed as to what's necessary perhaps um when 
I say we convert them uh Mr pile that means we we   have the msbu process which means we can establish 
you as an msbu and your subdivision and we can   tell you what it's going to cost cost for the one 
time maintenance or we can tell you what it costs   for maintenance and perpetuity and you can uh 
establish that agree to an assessment for that if   you want to do it so it's a little complicated 
and I don't have an a good answer at all for   um those that are in the past but I know that 
what's coming in the future is the notification   of this the annual reporting that's going to 
be required for our Water Management District   it's going to enforce it whether we like it or 
not but of course you know we we want good storm   water we want good water quality so it's putting 
a lot more onus on the developer on the county   and if it remains private on the HOAs so it'll 
be there'll be more information not not sorry   not a short answer backing up from that question 
just for my clarification if the new quantity uh   go goes into effect that's future design only does 
not retro activate any existing pond maintenance   or or design or when we go in and dredge the 
floor and put a new floor in are we under the new   compliant standard good question thank you it's 
it goes into effect as the BCC approves it and   not retroactively it is for any new developments 
from that date forward there have been um a lot of   discussion back and forth we've probably vetted 
this this particular item for almost a complete   year probably three to I'm going to say four 
pack meetings alone just to vet this item the   BCC has not given exact clear direction as to 
which way they were going to land so I'm still   waiting to see how they vote when they vote then 
I'll know but to my um my expectation is that it   will be adopted by the BCC and upon that date it 
will be become effective so any development that   has not submitted an actual DRC application will 
have to comply with this requirement I have some   latitude and have used that Latitude in places 
where we know we have drainage problems in the   history of escamia County that was not something 
that was available or not something that was used   by previous County engineers and myself included 
because the board's Direction was not very clear   however that is not the case any longer we have 
the some latitude and I for instance if there's   a a Development coming into an area that I know 
is problematic um we will require them to do to   do additional because um these guys as Engineers 
know I will tell you yes you want to use the best   data available best science but nobody nobody 
was trained to do it to the minimum standard as   an engineer you were never trained to do minimum 
standards so I will sit with them and we will have   these hard conversations about I'm not going to be 
able to approve this without you going above and   beyond because I already know I have a problem and 
it may not it may not be to your benefit to to go   forward with this project but I I can't in good 
conscience allow anything to go forward if they   don't go above and beyond and do what's necessary 
so these are minimums and that's that's just what   I want to say for your benefit for the other 
things that you you're hearing here and there   that you know that that's not you know that's 
not all that's done is minimum standards these   Engineers are ethical and they're doing their 
they're doing their job best of their abilities from a um pre-existing condition issues I I 
know staffing has always been challenging in the   engineering department as well as anything having 
to do with public maintenance here uh Public Works   um the pre-existing problems like uh Tim was 
referencing I I live in a neighborhood that has   a HOA maintained um Pond ponds plural right um 
the change in leadership Within HOAs it happens   you know could happen every two years could happen 
every 10 years uh the education for someone new   here that they want to be the HOA president 
they don't necessarily know who to reach out   to I happen to live next door to my HOA president 
so I get lots of questions about maintenance on   their ponds um from an Outreach standpoint because 
pre-existing is probably the biggest problem that   we've got because going forward obviously we're 
looking to upgrade our standards and build to to   a accommodate you know current floodwater data or 
storm water data um from an Outreach standpoint   and not to put another had another thing on your 
plate Joy but my brain's already spinning from an   Outreach standpoint how could we as the planning 
board assist staff uh in sending something to the   board of County Commissioners that would help you 
Outreach to existing neighborhoods and homeowners   um homeowners just in general and homeowners 
association specifically and the presidents of   those home owners associations that have existing 
ponds in place um that they should be maintaining   um what would what would help staff facilitate 
that obviously monies thank you throw throw money   at it's typically the answer it could be but 
I mean some things are are are available to us   just by doing a database search so there you know 
through through our database we know which ponds   are private in terms of subdivisions i' I'd like 
to separate subdivisions from commercial sites   completely because that's that's different devil 
in the whole detail but the uh subdivisions we   know which ponds are private and we could we 
could make efforts to you know put together   a package of Education because through our ms4 
permit that's some of the things that we're we're   already mandated to do by the state so that's 
you know you started asking the question my   head started spinning a little but it's certainly 
something we can do through that um permit and we   not we can notify the HOAs of what's necessary and 
and also tell them what options they might have   like I say if we wanted to convert them to PRI to 
public ponds I'd much rather do that and you know   the public works department will have a little 
bit of a cons concern with that but by the same   token it's best in the long run for the county 
because most most HOAs don't hold up through 20   30 years and by the time we get to that point we 
need to take it over and maybe we can improve it   expand it deepen it do things to make it a better 
service better in the long run there's ponds in   some subdivisions that were only Built to treat a 
half inch you know it's that's simply not enough   it's simply there there's flooding and I and 
if I can get get into those areas and perhaps   expand the pond now that's that's a another U 
problematic issue because that means I'm buying   houses but by the same token if they're flooding 
and repetitively flooding and we can buy the home   and and expand the pond areas then we're doing 
a lot of good for everybody in the neighborhood   but the to answer your question I'm sorry it's 
it's it's a topic that we could get into through   our uh education program on the ms4 um we could 
put together uh informational packages and make   it available to those private subdivisions even 
just something that was in a digital format be   a link that because every one of us up here is 
in real estate in some form or fashion and and   goodness knows people find out that you're on the 
planning board they want to talk to you about all   kinds of stuff um so if if we could direct them 
to something on my escambia.com here here's option   a option b right you know you can you can this is 
what you can do on your own uh with the assistance   of scamby County engineering this is something 
that you know option b is msbu which obviously   you've recently had to do that with with some 
projects um where the the homeowners in that in   that subdivision get to you know bear bear that 
through a through an msbu um but uh if we had if   we had something like that to communicate out to 
the citizens and and any you know everyone the   County Commission as well as the planning board 
anybody that gets questions that that uh could   help educate um through through something through 
the public information office that would be great   we can do that we'll put together a a package for 
the um ms4 related project and then we'll pass it   on and make it available to you guys Rachel follow 
up with us on that awesome thank you I just want   to want to add one thing to that it's more more 
of an idea um I was formerly a neighborhood   association president um in the city um and the 
city has a council of neighborhood association   president cnap they call it and um you know it is 
an opportunity for neighborhood association HOA   presidents to get together um into a common Forum 
um and I feel like something like that would be a   a good way to educate you know kind of president 
president there could be like a you know you know   again a site set up on the County website for 
it the county can post information questions   could be asked um you know County staff could 
potentially be available um at like an annual   meeting or something like that of those of those 
uh of those groups of presidents so just a just   a thought we'll work towards something all right 
anything else okay we'll go to uh public comment   or I guess uh comments speaking on this issue 
here uh Mary I think we had you up to speak for this just state your name and address 
and then you we'll get you started I'm Mary kopka I live at 6248 moldun Road 
in Pensacola right by Hogan's pit and what   I'd like to know is this um I have a 
lot of questions this application that   y'all are talking about who developed 
it and I know he talked about the f   stuff but in this application are there going to 
be burms are all of them going to have outflow   or not um those are some questions because those 
that don't have any um outfall uh fill up and they   flood surrounding areas um I don't understand 
the birming and I would like that explained um   if it's a new design um is there somewhere 
else in the county or country that's using   this design specific design with I understand 
there's bming and stuff in it H has that been   tried out somewhere else if not it seems logical 
to have a prototype and see if that prototype   Works before you spend all this County money doing 
it because if the Prototype doesn't work you're   saving the county a lot of money um I'm also 
interested in uh perk testing and specifically   up in the um the Bell viw the land off bellw 
nobody can tell me who did that perk testing it   was done finally which I would have thought the 
planning board would have asked for earlier but   it was done in early December don't know who 
did it would like to know the results of that um so so I do have questions about birming and 
um I think it's great you're adopting the latest   stuff but in that design we're talking about a 
specifically out outfall and birming I'd like   to know about thank you thank you Jo um clear 
some of those things up for us try to try to   clear it up a little bit um this this is uh not 
a specific design this is uh an ordinance change   to require new designs to meet a stricter 
standard it is uh it we will require perk   tests um we we do that for all new ponds that 
are being built some do have BMS uh installed   or or where they you know they build up the back 
slope where it didn't have one before so they're   not just they not just digging a hole they do 
have to burm sometimes the back slopes um when   they do they have to meet certain um compaction 
tests for those to make sure they don't blow out   um again it there are some that don't have a 
positive outfall so they do have to do um onsite   100-year retention what this does is increases 
that amount of uh this the that ordinance this   ordinance change will uh basically increase that 
amount I believe what was the percentage about 20   22 to 25% increase in the size of a pond if they 
don't have an outfall so hope hopefully and we'll   see um a greater amount of free board in there 
um above that discharge elevation so we should   we should see uh this stricter standard uh and do 
make some improvements for future developments um   and I lost my notes of what your last question 
was um oh that was it the perk test is required   for all of those so it's not exactly this 
is not uh proposing a particular design it   is proposing a stricter standard for designs in 
the future for any of the designs coming in for   subdivisions and that sort of thing okay so the 
BM just get you out the mic so that the public   can hear it if they're listening in sorry or I 
I'll ask it for you if you want to sit there I'm sorry oh I can't even see that I don't my glasses 
Chris what does that mean Chris if you don't mind   Chris can we let her speak um well thank you 
Chris um so the burm is to in my mind a burm is   something that like if I have something here and 
I put a burm it's it's contains it yes ma'am okay so how does the water get in if you've got a 
burm the BMS blocking water from flowing into   it it would block the water from from flowing 
in or flowing out you're right but there would   be other devices or structures to take the input 
from the streets and and the surrounding area all   right like inlets and pipes and that kind of thing 
okay so there is no design like it yes ma'am in   this area yes ma'am it's not new that's a pretty 
typical design actually I'm sorry pardon me sir okay but are they working I mean there's so much 
flooding in especially in the Belleview area um   some of the ponds have outfall some don't stay off 
FL anyway um so that that's my concern I I would   love to see a design a prototype somewhere but I 
know that you know you've got different soil types   and densities so it's just um I I do commend that 
you're upgrading to um current rainfall data and   standards but I'm just worried about um BMS I I 
mean just to let you know it Hogan p pet when it   rains the all the water goes to my yard not to 
the pet which is right behind me so all right   thank you all right Andrew bler we got you up next 
just state your name and address and we'll get you going Andrew BL 6101 mest place my question is does engineering even know what a transit's 
used for I mean is it just a most a more stable   place to where you can prop up against than a 
shovel I mean you can see people propping up on   a shovel whatever do they think a Transit is just 
something that's more stable for them to prop up   on because engineering has spent over $6 millionar 
on Hogan's pit to collect water to dump on me but   yet I'm not a subject matter expert but I've 
lived it for like 32 years now of that Hogan's   pit which they go home to there I mean just what 
was it the count County administrator or whatever   uh we had before you know he says I live on top 
of a hill I don't care where the water goes it   you know and that's just like Godwin Lane over 
there they had done three storm water projects   on Godwin Lane well guess what Godwin Lane's on 
top of a hill they done three three storm water   projects on that and they still got water coming 
toward me that'll flood my house I can't figure   it out so like I'm saying they don't know what 
a transit's used for they got Zachary Estates   and soft for Field Pond or whatever I'm going I'm 
going to break it down there very simple to you   I've done this to the Five County Commissioners 
well over five County Commissioners because now   we got three new ones you got a five gallon bucket 
you drive you drill a hole a 2-inch hole in the   side of that 5 gallon bucket how much water would 
that five gallon bucket hole half as much but yet   we got County Engineers on Zachary States and 
the softly Field Pond put a hole in the burm so   you got an emergency Spillway but that emergency 
Spillway doesn't work because the water is leaking   out Mr BL can we stick to the ordinance please 
if nobody else is going to do a point of order   I'm going to ask for it well I mean the point 
of order is if you have regulations you have   a designed Pond but then you go and breach the 
design of the pond what have you done what are   we doing here with this irregula and laws or 
whatever yall doing what are you doing if the   county will come in there and breach the BM and 
it holds half the water that it was supposed to   have that's why Perkins streets flooded and they 
said oh my goodness Perkins streets flooded we   going to have to do something about that but it 
was because they went in there and drilled a hole   in it the house behind the softly Field Pond that 
house flooded I'm not sure what I don't know about   that issue to be fair I'm trying to get somebody 
in engineering to look at it I we had a talk with   um Joy Blackman and um West Marino and the County 
Administrator at that time about four years ago so   answer that all right uh we have Chris CER we' got 
you up name and address and we'll get your time   started answer for that one Mr BL we're here to 
discuss the ordinance if you have any questions I   welcome those about the ordinance we're not going 
to have a back and forth right now with staff or   anybody from the public so Mr Cur if you'll go 
ahead I have a couple of uh handouts here um   if I could subit him to the board yeah you good 
with that all right you can ask him to either uh   summarize the points that he has written or 
you could consider uh in accepting into the   evidentiary record past practic has been to 
discourage written reports uh submitted as   evidence but it is discor this is I misspoke you 
can consider it and that's discretion to inter evidence us sure U first of all it's a summary 
of what I'm going to speak on and second of it's   it's um a do uh Source uh of of information all 
right do we need to vote to accept that or we just we got one more he's out on on 
the phone there's six of us up   here okay I think I got I think I got 
six copies of your we can share if we   need to and you can take a look before 
accepting into the evidentiary record thanks e for for dead time can I ask the lawyer there do I need to 
sue the county to get an answer to my question Mr   BL we're we're in the middle of a meeting and 
we got an agenda item here in front of us so   we're going to have to take this first and I 
don't know this is the Forum to ask a question   it's so they can't give you that advice Mr 
chair can we have yes sir speaker explain yeah are you ready for my testimony or do 
you want you want an explanation of this   before he starts his tesy is basically 
a synopsis of this I like to hear him   speak and then we can decide whether this 
needs to be you know in sound good with   thanks I don't I don't have a digital 
copy so I'll email it to you Andrew so you ready yes sir okay I'm Chris 
Cur 5999 Somerset Drive flood Defenders um section 1- 1.2 using adopted fdot rainfall 
data which is basically Noah Atlas 14 and   in 2026 it be Noah Atlas 15 this is good and 
I'll tell you in a minute why it's good but uh   I'm all for this but there is a little problem 
here with the ordinance uh where it talks about uh   a minimum free board of5 ft or 6 Ines for 100-year 
24hour storm in a closed Basin a pond and enclosed   Basin has no positive outfall that only meets 100e 
24-hour storm with a 6in free board is a flooding   liability to the properties around that pond 
where did the S the arbitrary and capricious 6in   freeboard originate because it's not based off of 
science I know where it originated but I'll tell   you that later I spoke at the professional 
advisory committee when this ordinance was   proposed and I did not agree with close basement 
specifications I presented What DOT required   for closed basins being a 100-year 7-Day and 10day 
storm event thus the handout this should be added   to the language of this code when the County 
engineer debated that that um this that she   would be you know making sure ponds designed in 
vulnerable areas and take extra measures to ensure   that you know not going to have any flooding 
well that's good I mean I commend her for that um   but still this is inconsistency and application of 
law you can't require somebody to do something in   one area something in another area doe something 
different the rules should be clear for all   special attention to certain flood problem areas 
can easily be achieved by the County engineer but   the problem is the 6inch free board for closed 
basins is arbitrary and capricious not based   upon science and such will open the county up to 
problems like the Velma moldun softly field Hogan   pit Pond Belleview project by the way what's the 
cost estimate for that project I think it's around   20 to $30 million to provide outfalls for County 
ponds that don't have outfalls Philip Walker who   sits right here at that pack meeting he agreed 
with me and uh when I said the county should be   adopting a 100e 7day 10 day 10 our storm event 
for closed basins however the pack approved it anyway is that my time or can I finish you 
wrap it up W I'll wrap it up in 2022 Florida   Statutes were were uh revised uh to to require 
do to submit a resilience action plan included   using the most updated Noah precipitation data 
in June of 20123 they submitted a resiliency   action plan thus why no Atlas 14 was adopted 
and do got rid of their 1979 archived rainfall   data and marked it not for use and design but 
this also required a little pushing from flood   Defenders with Miss green the tot straight uh 
State drainage engineer there are some other   considerations Congress through the American 
flood Coalition pushing them they pass the   precept Act and the floods act what that does 
is that requires that Noah update their rainfall   data every 10 years in 2026 we will have Noah 
Atlas 15 the floods act establishes the inter   agency committee on water Mar management and 
infrastructure to ensure federal agencies work   together on water related issues so what does that 
actually mean well it actually means that in 2026   we're going to get no Atlas 15 but all these 
grants that we get from the federal government   you're going to have strings attached to them 
like the Clean Water Act and and the National   Environmental Policy Act local municipalities 
will have to meet the design standard strength   attached to those grants like using Noah 
Atlas rainfall data and eventually we're   going to have a national storm water management 
standard if the American flood Coalition uh sees   it that way so I request that you adopt you 
change this language right here um where is it scratch the minimum free board of 5.5 in and 
change the 100e the 24hour to a 7day and a 10day   storm for 100-year frequency you can do that 
right here at this board meeting and uh I'll   be a happy camper to all thank you Mr curb um so 
I know we wanted to decide if we're going to let   this into um I guess the record essentially after 
hearing hearing the comments from Mr [Music] curb   well that's fine but Mr Speaker I'd like to 
hear our Engineers their response to that and   you know as far as validation or verification or 
what where the information that came up out of   the blue theoretically I'd like to get their 
response before we vote on this okay uh just   briefly it's it's not out of blue as I said we 
had several pack meetings and it was discussed   in um at length and I respectfully just we've 
chosen the half- foot reten of free board it's   if you want to call it arbitrary I can respect 
that response um the science he's speaking to is   also a a decision that's made based on empirical 
or what have you so uh I'll let Philip speak to   that part of the conversation um so that you can 
hear the background on that sure uh thank you Joy   uh so I will say that um you know a part of our 
process of looking at the no Alis 14 and providing   recommendations you know currently there's no 
free board requirement on a close based in stormw   water pond so our recommendation to the planning 
board was um you know consider adding a free board   criteria to the to the DSM and uh that is what 
we're here today uh discussing having been adopted   uh furthermore I would say that for the closed Bas 
and stormwater ponds uh fd2 does require the three   the seven and 10 day durations that's because 
these ponds don't have an outfall and so you   know hurricane Sally was the perfect example 
storm for us it rained for three days before   the storm even got to us and then we had the 
most intense you know we it was essentially   100-year 24-hour storm after we had just had a 
100-year 72h hour storm uh so that is why fdot   does require that those closed Basin ponds are 
run out for longer durations because they want   to know what the impact of you know over 
a week how much do the pond recover draw   down by percolation and then how much does it 
fill back up and so it's more of a you know   a service life of the pond for a closed Basin 
analysis and that's just what I wanted to add there and I'd ask the the engineers you know the 
information I don't know if you have copies of   this as well I mean do you disagree with any of 
other than the fact that I mean I I would I would   say that you know federal grants are going to be 
tied to whatever the federal Grant's from anyway   I I mean I don't know of any money that people 
are giving away without strings attached it to   some form or fashion but um I guess to the 
his point would you agree with the validity   of this uh this information that's given to us 
and as far as the table's concerned and I mean   look I I sounds like we're making a step forward 
we're making progress that's a good thing uh but your your recommendation can be different from 
what the P's recommendation was it's perfectly   fine the uh I I just provide the the data for 
the conversation um uh you know I have to try   to work between the Rock and the hard place to 
determine what's the best balance um uh while   there is no positive outfall in most cases in 
our scenarios they are smaller closed Basin   issues where I hopefully we be able to find 
an eventual outfall for them they're just not   a direct positive outfall um and the Dot's impact 
if those ponds were to overflow are significantly   higher than what ours would be however that 
doesn't mean it's not important it is what it   is but if dot ponds fail um interstates and and 
other significant infrast structure could be in   Failure as well so it's a balance I'm not saying 
it it's wrong I'm saying it's more stringent it   may be what the board wants to go to I I'm here 
to support whatever guidance they have in that   regard again there are different methodologies 
you I'll add the freeboard criteria um is over   and above I mean that's what we're talking about 
right now so so the ponds are still being designed   100-year event you know we're talking about 
using the new rainfall data and everything so   any any amount of free board is is a good thing 
it's it's over and above so just something to keep   in mind so I mean taking this into consideration 
would it be that I I forget how often the   professional advisory meeting or committee 
meets could we send this back with taking   this consideration I hate to defer something but 
I mean maybe just to take it under consideration   one more time just to say we've added it I don't 
know that I don't have a committee meeting lined   up anytime soon I'm also running without uh a 
deputy director a storm water division manager   or a storm water reviewer for the DRC so I'm it 
so I don't really have the resources right now   I would ask um if you would consider it that's 
that's perfectly fine if you'd like to send it   for to the board with this in consideration 
um our pack as well as uh as you are aware   from past discussions at the board meetings 
both sides of the equation will be there to   discuss it with the BCC so I think it's perfectly 
fine if you want to amend or suggest that it be   considered I certainly wouldn't have any problem 
with that Rel I'm sorry Chris and I just want to   get some clarification for the guy that sells 
lumber and tries to keep downtown clean um you said to include the S to 10day 100e frequency the 
it's where it says 24 hour changed that to 7day   and 10day mhm and then you can scratch the 6in 
freeboard or the 5.5 foot this is 6 in I got you   okay so and it's and it's spread over a whole pond 
so it is a volume amount I got but this is 6 in y   That's arbitrary and capricious that information 
came from a a recommendation in s keep let me keep   moving J what does that what does that do with 
that change in your mind that you that you don't   agree with or maybe not don't agree with but 
didn't think was necessary for this ordinance   change I I think it's just on a scale basis I feel 
like the the freeboard requirement um does with   the added volume that we're already asking for 
on the Noah Atlas 14 and any future updates to   that as it comes along as well as the 6in 
freeboard over that entire area of pond uh on a   scale for what we're dealing with in subdivisions 
is typically pretty significant in terms of volume   and it's not that I don't understand um the 
idea that dot is looking at is is a cyclical   type thing in other words and and Phil spoke to 
that is the recovery time of a pond is important   but we're also looking at recovery times as 
well so if we see the Pond's not recovering   like it should then you know we we can or we 
see the park rates are not good then we can   make some adjustments to that but to Chris's 
point I mean this is a methodology it was   discussed at the pack and those professionals 
decided that this was adequate and and the   the proper way to go so I'm just bringing that 
forward as well so that's their recommendation   but um you know all of these things are 
subject to the bcc's approval so if you   would like them to to know that you've taken 
that into consideration and you have concerns   of that I'm happy to represent that as 
well for you okay yeah let BBC have an option I'm with you so this is for again 
as we said stated early any new storm water   um upon going in whether that's by the county 
or by a private developer correct it's for um   new developments specifically new developments 
specifically yes sir all right and you might not   have the answer to this but what is in developing 
a storm water P like this there's you're not going   to be able to answer this but I'm going to ask you 
anyways what's the what's the cost difference in   what you got here and what is being suggested by 
Mr KB you're probably have a better answer than   I am on that because you know more about real 
estate than I do but you're you're going to   see a reduction in the number of lots that can be 
developed in a subdivision that's the short answer   it's going to also impact the I'm going to say 
the number of parking spaces or something to that   effect relative to a an apartment complex which is 
usually a bigger a big issue as well we see those   are the things that have to be taken in that 
that that impact the cost that's that's really   all I gotta we use up usable acreage typically 
in commercial but I mean we've been using more   Turtle Back designs and on-site retention and 
detention so I mean a lot of this is factored in   I mean it's more advantageous for us not to have 
it but I mean I get it fully too so understood   I think I got everything I needed she want add 
anything else I would like to add something 36   billion doll that's our national deficit with the 
national flood insurance program 36 billion that's   in 2023 that doesn't include 2024 we are not 
handling storm water in this country in this state   in this County like we should be why don't the 
county step up and modernize like uh Ashley ran on let's get modernized let's go with 
science let's not go with arbitrary and   capricious 6in freeboard that came from 
s Resa County they're 30 years behind   us I gotcha thank you thank you all 
right board so we've um I don't know   if anybody else has got questions or 
anything Mr BL if we can make it quick and that's what I want 6 inch free board what are 
y'all saying on that so when the water comes up   above that it's going to overbank and I mean 
that's going to be like opposed to zero yeah   opposed to zero What's the difference I mean that 
means you're going to get six more inches of water   breaking through a burm I guess you can huh what 
what and it tops that when it tops to 6 in when   it tops to 6 in it's going to go over the BM right 
and it goes over the BM what's it going to do it's   going to wash out the BM right so you got six 
more inches of water over what was the the the   capacity of the pond right yes so why don't you 
have a hardened Wii or something other in there   if you're going to if you're going to adopt the 
stupid thing then you are at least have a hardened Wei gotta all right board don't know what I talk about if we'd like to um figure out how to proceed what you can say it from there and I'll 
repeat it so we got it on the record what you   got okay I'll try to talk loud yes ma'am it is 
a free board that also concerns me because if we   if it overflows there's no place for it there's no 
way it's going to go back into the pond it's going   to flow out to all of us who around that pond so 
that's why I'm so concerned with that um and how   does that pond collect the water anyway I would 
hope that that the pond is low enough that when   it's raining and raining and raining and water's 
building up in my yard that it will flow down to   H's pit and it won't be able to get into the pit 
if there's a free freeboard and then if the pit   overflows then it's going to come back twice in 
my yard because the first water couldn't get out   and then the freeboard water won't be we get out 
so that is the concern with the free board for   me thank you very much so I just wanted to clarify 
for the record uh requiring freeboard is requiring   additional Pond volume that is not anticipated 
to ever be used so what you would do is you   would figure out what's your maximum stage of your 
pond is for whatever designed storm event whether   it's the 100e 24hour 72 any of them right and say 
that that top elevation of water is elevation 100   what we would say is the minimum that the burm 
can be is elevation 10050 and what that does is   provides a factor of safety in the pond design 
so the pond can retain more storm water than the   maximum of the theoretical models that were ran 
during design you can't dig it deeper to achieve   the same thing that gets into more variables 
well yeah you you dig it deeper and then you're   changing policy right now the policy is a 100-year 
24hour design so you know you could dig it deeper   make it a 200e pond but that's not what current 
policy is we're talking about over and above   current policy okay board is there any further 
questions for staff at this time any direction on   how you wouldd like to proceed with the evidence 
that was presented by Mr cerb that we've got in   front of us or his testimony essentially written 
down um no U Mr Speaker I just want to say thank   you uh to Joe Joy M Blackman for uh presenting 
this information a step forward I want to earlier   we had mentioned some about impervious parking 
and our County facility here is a great example   of pervious parking that's supposed to be a model 
for developments coming forward um while it's easy   to throw rocks at uh the folks who are taking 
the responsibility and trying to fix things Mr   BL you may need to apply for the position that 
Miss Blackman has open available for to help out   uh but I think this is a step forward uh and I 
I say we should I don't think we need to admit   this information I think he was very articulate in 
explaining it and if they're going to be present   at the board of County Commissioners we can they 
can also present that information as well but I   think it is a step forward and I'll leave it up to 
the board if you guys want to add that additional   language or not are we going to be notified 
of the BCC meeting on this I checked a little   box on that pink piece of paper saying I'd like 
further February 4th 8:30 no the BCC meeting for   this item is Wednesday January 22nd at 9:15 in the 
morning at the BCC Chambers all right so that's   just letting you know when the next planning 
board meting is Wednesday January 22nd at 9:15 a.m. okay Mr chair I'm asking for clarity 
here is are we looking for a motion and if   that motion is to include any change to the um 
written draft does that have to be articulated   in the motion we need if you wanted to change uh 
make an amendment to the draft itself we would   have to have a motion on that Amendment um vote 
on that and then vote on the what would then be   amended version of this ordinance in front 
of us to move forward does that make sense understood so I'll take any kind of motion we got 
on the table right now we don't got one I'll make   a motion to move excuse me to move forward with uh 
as advised by staff with the current language and   um I'd like to add this as additional evidence um 
for the bccc if they want to send it back to staff   for uh revision that's entirely up to them but the 
motion would be to move forward uh with this added   as excuse me as additional um evidence and yeah 
I will second that fully I will take that great   so we've got a motion to um send on what we've 
got in front of us plus adding this testimony   here with it um that provides an alternative 
option as well for them to consider and uh   so there's no further discussion on that motion 
uh all those in favor of the motion please signify   by raising your right hand all those opposed all 
right uh thank you very much and then um that'll   be on the next board County Commission meeting 
and then any action or discussion items I had a   quick question so you you accepted this ordinance 
and that document that I submitted to be presented   for consider yes sir um option A that's right 
so any action or discussion items or info from Staff All right we didn't have anyone 
sign up for public forum nothing from   County attorney um for recommendation 
or whatever I want to be Doge of a scam   County I'll have to come up with 
I might be as crazy as or whatever engineer Mr Mr BL the our next meeting 
is Tuesday February 4 so we'll see you   all then do we have some cases scheduled 
I have a resoning and opt out okay great   all right thanks so much we're adjourned thank you Horus can I have a minute with you and joy um