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Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=QjQ2zDtwmRo

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Okay, we're going to call to order. >> This is the regular meeting of the historic preservation commission. Adequate of fair had been the adequate notice of this meeting has been given pursuant to the provisions of the open public meeting act. At the time of the board reorganization of Jan in January of this year, the board adopted its

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regular meeting schedule for the year. Notice that the schedule has been sent to and has been published in the Asbury Park Press on January 30th, 2026 and the tour times on February 12th, 2026. That notice has also been posted on the bullet board of the burough hall and has

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remained continuously posted there as is required by the statute. A copy of the notice is and has been available to the public and is on file in the office of the burough clerk. A copy of the notice has been sent to members of the public as have requested such information and in accordance with the statute. With

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adequate notice having been given, the board secretary is directed to include this statement in the minutes of this meeting. Can we get a roll call? >> Yes. Mr. Kav >> here. Here. >> Mr. Mr. Schlutoter >> here. >> Mr. Heller here.

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>> Mrs. Priscilla here. Mrs. Kley. >> Mr. Boff >> here. >> Mrs. Forte, Gareth and Mr. Smith. >> Okay. So, we have a couple of matters on uh we have one formal application and we have an informal although they're uh the

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Sandra Nick 28C Gillespie Avenue is on first. We're going to take the actual application first and that is Jill Brown and Matthew Dism. Uh 852 River Road, lot 53, lot five. >> Yes.

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>> Come on up. Have a seat. just introduce yourself for the record and um we're here for you. First of all, welcome to town. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Hasn't even been a full month yet. [clears throat] >> So, I'm Jill Brown. My husband Matt

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Dismute. Uh we moved to 852 River Road uh late last month. I don't know if you had a chance to look at our letter, but we we came from Middletown Walk uh the Toll Brothers townhouse development in Middletown. But before then, we had a

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very old um farmhouse, the barn and everything in Basking Ridge. That's where we raised the girls. And when uh our girls went off to college, we're like, "What are we doing with this big old house? Let's go closer to the beach and downsize." And so we found the the

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town houses um in Middletown, and we thought it'd be perfect, but we hated it. We hated I mean, everything was brand new and and it worked. Um, we tried it really we tried really hard to love it. We made some good friends, but um, we loved the area,

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but we hated the town houses. So, here we are. We found another old house falling apart that needs our love and um, loving the town even though we were in Middletown. So, we were there for about two and a half years. Um, we didn't really know about Fair Haven until very

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recently. It's it was kind of off the radar. We just would go to Redbank and not really come through here. You're sworn to secrecy >> apparently. No, it's so tiny. >> You sign the paper. >> So, um, we're loving it. We're really loving it. And it feels good to to have

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a little yard and to have leaky faucets and get rid of it. >> Very creaky. So, >> tell us a little bit about the house, uh, about the age, any history that you know about it. We always like to kind of hear about, uh, about structures and what we've learned, uh, from the from

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the sellers and so on. So, we didn't learn much from the lady that we bought it from. Um, we've learned more from our next door neighbor who said, uh, they've been there for, I think, 48 years. So, the house is said to have been built in

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1903. He, for whatever reason, thinks it was built >> before that. >> Before that, I don't know why. Um, and it sounds like in about 2002,

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the previous previous owners bumped up uh the back of the house. So, there was kind of an addition put on in uh early 2000s. >> Have you done any work on the inside? That kind usually gives an indication of the age or anything like that or finance

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not so much. Yes, it did. I think in 1903 when we had the inspectors come in, structural engineers, they kind of agreed with that date. Um, just based on the the material on the belt. >> Yeah, >> there's a couple fair haven maps that kind of, you know, they're about a couple of years starting like the late

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1800s and going through the early 1900s and sometimes you can kind of pinpoint it through looking at that whether there's a structure on, you know, where it's depicted along river there. We've tried online. Not we haven't really had much luck, but I feel I would love to

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actually go to a physical place and see if we could find more history. >> There is a program to do if you want to do a deed search uh through the historic association to get a century house flag. >> Yeah. >> Um it doesn't really change anything. You know, you're in the district, so you're subject to this commission's jurisdiction, but it's just something

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that, you know, you're into the historic aspect of things. So, something uh that you might want to look into. Um so yes so tell us about um problems that you have with the house that are leading to the restoration and I know you've outlined it in your submission but tell us some detail if you're looking at death.

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>> So um some immediate things need to be taken care of the roof um which brought us down this whole road of we love the house. We walked in fully knowing that there were some things that needed to be done. Um I think most urgent is the roof. Um there are some areas that

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needed um flashing or some kind of repair. Um we can see where the water's been coming in. Um the gutters are in need of um repair. Um which kind of started us down this whole road of um we did some remediation in the basement and

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the crawl spaces when we first moved in um to kind of seal off that from affecting the rest of the house. And then looking um through the rest of it, we said we need to do the roof. roof definitely needs to be done. Um, and then as we are going through the house,

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we're noticing the windows don't open and close. They're um, depending on which part of the house they're the original um, painted shot, 18 coats of paint. Um, lovely, but don't know if they're

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capable of saving. Um and then and then that brought us to the outside and um the the vinyl appears to be kind of at a end of life. Um starting to get brittle. Um so kind of just looked at it

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holistically and said why don't we start at the top, work our way down and make sure that the house is um sealed in. So that's kind of where we are today. any idea what's underneath the uh the vinyl siding?

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>> So, the one spot that we could pull up um had the original um cedar clap, but it looked like it was in pretty bad um shape. >> Was it a similar reveal to >> it was it was about a 4 inch. >> And um one of the things I did notice

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obviously is that on the front porch there's a y is there a yanked gutter system and you're keeping that? We would like to slightly elevate it. >> Um it's the whole front of the house because of

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that roof the way it's been for so long is um >> Yeah. >> It's awful. I mean the whole >> pitch back the front roof. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> Have you thought about doing like a membrane roof or something to kind of preserve that flat like Italian lift about it? I I know this is something

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that we face a lot of times with broad structures. um because that's obviously historically um consistent what's there and what was originally there, but I know from a from a practicality standpoint, it's not great and roofers don't like to deal with it is you get the drain off. You

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get the drain naturally if you have a slope. >> We also had it in our previous house in Basking Ridge and it gave us nothing but problems with I don't know why they don't work those Yankee Yankee gutters. Um, we had a terrible time with it,

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>> but I think I think just the slight pitch is really not that noticeable from the front, especially from the distance that we are from the street. Um, and then our contractor had um the drawings so that

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drain doesn't come directly in front. It was kind of wrapped behind. So, it's it's it's hidden, which I think gives us the best of both worlds. >> They're not going to be added gutters. They're not going to be yanking gutters. Correct. >> Which right now there is a gutter. There is a gutter.

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>> There is a gutter. Yeah. And you can see it just right in front of the col one of the columns. We would actually we see I see the down spout. >> That's the leader. The down spout, not the uh the gut. >> Sorry. Yes. Yes. Correct. That's right. >> So, and it's kind of interesting the way

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they have that sort of um is it in between the two brackets on the right. So that it's just a hole in the in the front of the porch, >> right? Which is actually not even open at the moment. >> No, it's not. >> Um and not not obstructed by debris, but

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just by whatever they did to stop it from leaking, it looks like. >> So what does the water What happens to the water now? >> Comes into the basement. >> Oh yeah, >> it just it's just coming down. Yeah, you can see where it comes into the house.

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Was there any even like a slighter pitch and like some type of I look I saw >> there's a slight There is a slight pitch to it. Slight but it's almost like as it's I don't know how it was originally

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built, but as it's as the wood has um rotted on the side, it's almost like it's sunk. >> Yeah. >> Back towards the house. >> It seems to me that you could probably rebuild the roof correctly and keep it

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the flat pitch roof. And flat does not mean flat, meaning a very slight pitch like a quarter inch per foot, which you can drain the water off and then redo a contemporary >> um gutter similar to what you have.

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And that that would make it look correct with the period of the house rather than trying to go with a pitched roof and changing the whole look of the outside of the house. you know, a correct Yankee gutter system would have worked there.

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>> And I wrestled with it too, just looking at because I think your house looks great and everything you guys are proposing looks from Griffin. Um, but it does change the historic configuration of that little front porch roof as it goes from being something impractical, quote unquote, but historically

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accurate, not changing the whole facade, but it I mean it does complement like in your image, this image. It looks good. >> I think I think it compliments the roof. >> I Yeah, >> but it's but it's just not really historically accurate. So, we've got an issue with something that's currently

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historic, historically accurate that probably has a fix, but it's a little bit different than what we're proposing. And I don't know whether you've explored it, whether you consider exploring it, or what your thoughts would be on that. >> I think we did talk to the contractor

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about it. Um, we did. We had we had such a terrible experience at our last house with it. I think it's just >> I mean >> it can be done right. I mean I don't know >> I'm sure I'm sure it can be I'm sure it can be >> deal with it you know.

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>> Yes. >> Are there other historic homes that have the Yankee gutter correctly? Uh well it's not just the Yankee gutter because you could add you could add gutter but yeah I mean the Bero house that we just approved when they first came in they

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had a very similar roof line on the front and they did make that modification to go with the flat roof. Don't remember the number of the house that's sort of across the street from this one that um we had a contractor who basically did kept Yankee gutters and

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kept I think a flat portion. Um, I mean there's a number of houses that are in the district that do have the flat roofs. Um, so I don't know, you know what the thought is or whether there was flexibility possibly. And again, like Joe said, it doesn't have to be a, you

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know, a flat flat roof, but it could be something less of a pitch that's really not as noticeable as the front porch roof that's depicted in your image. >> I would be open to that. Would you? >> Yeah, I think we can. I think we can discuss it. Are they showing a an

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asphalt roof on the new roof that you're proposing? >> Correct. >> Because that to me looks like it'd be too flat of pitch for the asphalt and they'd have to, you know, short course the shingles in order to do that. >> It was the lowest pitch. >> It was the lowest.

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>> I don't remember the numbers, but >> because it looks lower than four on on 12. >> Yeah, it was like a three or two or three. that is really not conducive with an asphalt roof over time. >> I I would be open to

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having that yinky gutter flat. I I I understand the the look. It It's a beautiful look. >> It's just something that um >> the long-term we're also kind of trying to balance the long-term practicality of I understand. Well, the the the current

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materials that are available are really good at doing flat pitch roofs. I have one at my in-laws house that has been we redid it probably 20 years ago and it's still showing no signs of leaks and we have a skylight as well. >> Okay. >> It's more contemporary. It's not a

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historic structure, but uh it is a flat basically a flat roof. >> I think what they generally use it's almost like a commercial products like a rubber membrane that they put on. There's either torch down or or glue down. I I prefer the glue down. >> And then they actually even sort of put

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that on the Yankee gutter system. >> Yeah. It runs right in and becomes the gutter. >> Okay. >> That was our first our first talk with the contractor was to have that to keep it. So >> we we could do that. >> Yeah. And I know it's kind of a big ask

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because I know about the impracticality and I know about the cost probably associated with it as well. But it's such a that you know and it doesn't look bad. I mean it looks great but I mean the bottom line is that sort of our purpose here is to preserve the facades of certain houses and even from your

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depiction here on the images it's so different and you and again it's just basically taking away from something that was obviously the original look of this house from 1903. It just doesn't really fit with the Italian style because usually there would always be

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flat news on the porches like that. The other question I have is about the windows and they're proposing the cottage style window as opposed to six over sixes which would be more traditional for that that period of

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house. So we did some research and it sound from what we could find on on research um in 1903. It was um it had just started to come out where

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me they were able to manufacture the larger pieces of glass and as a cost savings they would do the six smaller on the top >> with [clears throat] the and then you know budget for the big one on the bottom um as a more kind of upgrade and and it looked looked fancy. So

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we did we talked a lot about this and we feel like it is historically accurate. I agree that it's historically accurate, but it's not historically accurate for your style of house. Uh the other question I have is you

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looks like you've shortened the uh downstairs windows. They're not as tall as the windows that are in the original. >> We are not changing the size of anything. It might just be >> It's just on the drawing. >> It might just be on the drawing because the the sizes are identical.

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>> Yes, sizes are identical. Based on your picture, it's showing them smaller. It looks like the same size up and down. >> 6 over six current way upstairs. >> Um, currently upstairs is just windows that are falling. It's just one over one

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falling apart. They're awful. >> They look like replacement window. >> They're off. They're they're dangerous upstairs. Was there a thought to doing a six over six >> or just talked about that coming in? >> Yes. >> Um

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>> it was one of the things where we were kind of on the fence when we made put this plan together. Um >> what the what's the condition of the windows um downstairs? Are they you think they're original or >> they

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>> I think that >> there's parts. Yeah, I think they're either original or a mishmash of of parts. >> Uh, >> so there's six there's six in the front actually. Yeah, >> four.

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>> Four in the front, two on the sides, and then there's one on the back in the kitchen that look like they're all I guess what I would call original or >> pieces. You can tell where things have been replaced in them where the glass is diff different styles of glass in

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between. So, somebody did try >> um >> So, they replace the glass maybe with the flat glass as opposed to the older glass which is more of a wave glass. >> Yes. [clears throat] >> That's probably the original windows.

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They've just been >> some of them. Yes. >> Over time. >> Yes. >> Also, before I forget, I got a compliment you on your submission. Very good. It's great. The photos and it's just your details. Very good. It's

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better than sometimes we get from professionals. >> Excellent. Good to hear. Thank you. >> Let's explain the difference. The six the six over the six over one which she's saying there's historical. There's some research that says that's

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what is happening at the period. But you're saying the house doesn't match that. >> What type of Yeah, I was curious as well. >> Cottage style. That's more >> more of a cottage house would have the six over ones as opposed to an Italian egg would have the six over sixes. >> Okay.

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>> Okay. >> I was saying if you did the research for an Italian a six over six there. >> Is that important to you? >> Um >> it's not important to me. >> No.

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>> As I said, we were kind of on the fence about it. And if you think like if you really have the background of that and and it would look weird, it doesn't match the style of the house. Um >> yeah, >> I would concede to that if you think it it matches better.

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>> And the windows that you chose are a vinyl replacement window. >> It is. They are correct. >> And they do not have uh the mud bars on the exterior of the glass. >> Correct. >> Yeah. So that would be a deal breaker

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with our our board also because we would prefer to see the traditional style windows with the outside mud boss. I looked up the when I saw this application I looked up uh the window company and I saw that they don't

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provide that. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> They do not. >> So that's something that I think we would be looking at. It's something that we've specifically required because there's a certain depth and a texture of those windows that really gets lost when you have just like a snap in bracket

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from the inside. It's not really that vivid on on the images here, but uh but Joe was correct on it. So, I don't know. Um you know, if that becomes a problem, if that's an issue, >> it is an issue. Um we did have that

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priced out. It's a big It's a big issue. >> Yeah, >> it's a big issue. So, um it's a prohibitive issue actually for us that like that

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leaves us with just keeping >> the original >> the windows as is. Um which are awful. You can't open them. The ones upstairs, one of them is balancing. It's

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uh another one in the attic is off its hinges. >> Missing missing. >> We we that's prohibited to us. >> Is there any like a simulated divided light type product that's out there, Joe? >> Not that I know of that would be at that

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price point. >> And are you suggesting that all of the windows or just the street facing windows? Well, you know, we're only responsible for the the stuff that's visible from the street >> and I don't I don't I haven't driven by,

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so I don't know how visible, but the side windows are, but if they are visible from the street, that would fall under our jurisdiction as well. >> Yes, >> most people that uh board, they end up using the Anderson 400 series

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>> because you have the grills on the outside and the inside. with a spacer bar between. >> Yes. >> They're not cheap windows, but they are really good windows. >> And I don't know if uh the renewal by Anderson has something that's comparable

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to that. >> They do not. We We looked >> We did. We compared also um Marvin makes one, the Elevate, I believe. Marvin um >> Yeah. >> which is vinyl on the outside and wood on the inside.

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Um, it's >> there were companies that would do uh windows that were called sash packs and you would keep the existing exterior frames and you would just replace the the actual window sash and they would

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come with channel liners, but the company that I used to work with that that did those went out of business. So, I don't know where and I haven't done any windows like that in a long time. >> Yes. Does what is the um what is your take on

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replacing the windows on the top the five on the top with windows that look like the five that are there right now? We need air in the house and like I said it's it's cost

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prohibitive to us at I mean it's just all these things that need to be done. >> Yeah. >> Um we also want to get air in the house. >> So just understand just doing the top five windows. Is that what you're

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suggesting? >> Yes. Basically replacing them as with a product that looks just like they are now. Well, what do you like? They are now like a one over one. >> Yes. Or with the as a one over one or

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>> either six or six. I mean >> something that's cheaper. >> Yeah. If you're replacing it, obviously if you're replacing with something that's exactly like there is now, there's not much that we could say about that. But I don't know why you would want to do that if you obviously because the six over six would be such a step

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forward, such an improvement even if you just did those top five windows. >> It would be, but it wouldn't have the grills on the outside. >> The problem The problem is that we've been very specific to kind of not allow that. And um you know, we're kind of

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like I said, we're asking you a bunch of things here to do and some modifications that I know are costly, but this is a a you know, obviously a historic house of survivor if you will um and a fairly conspicuous part of town, River Road,

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and um you know, we have clues to what the original structure was. Um, and I I just find it hard to be able to make an exception just based on, you know, for no other reason. I mean, for cost is as much as it's an [clears throat]

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important thing, but it's difficult if we forced other not forced, but the recommendations to other homeowners in the district has been to do a uh, you know, a like Joe suggested, not a simulated,

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it's not like you know, a snap in. So, you know, it's a no-brainer otherwise in terms of approval with the with the, you know, the roof like we described in the six over six true divided light or simulated divided light, but I don't

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know again I I want to have more give and take with you guys. We walking around the historic district. Also, we um of course I didn't take down addresses, but we did notice homes that do have windows

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with out the exterior grills. Um some of our neighbors on River Road have that as well. Um, I feel like just what we're proposing is um,

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we're we're open to everything to that you've suggested. Um, this is very cost prohibitive. If you look at our neighbors across the street from us, um, next door to us, I mean, this is a big improvement to that little stretch

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there. Um, I think by us being able to replace all the windows, have them look >> uniform, >> uniform, six over six. Um, and again, there are other houses that have the grills inside. Um,

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>> we're not asking, you know, we're not painting the house purple. >> Um, we're trying very hard to keep it historically accurate. We just don't have the budget to >> Yeah. Now I I understand um you know in terms of other houses though that have

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that they may have never been before the commission. There was a time that you know certain um you know houses were modified when the commission wasn't in uh in effect. There was a there was a hiatus period. So I can't really speak to that. But it's your application now

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before us. And and you know, if you want to, you know, talk to your contractor and or figure out what kind of options are out there, that might be something you might want to think about doing. >> Um, and and I'm not certainly I'm sure Joe is not trying to be hard on her. I

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think is all everything you're proposing beautiful from aesthetics looks great and it's a major improvement over what's there. But again, it's certain things that are historically accurate, especially on a conspicuous facade inside of a house in a prominent area of town. It's hard for us to just kind of,

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you know, basically say it looks nice, so we're going to plow them. That's the problem. It kind of goes against what, you know, fundamentally our purpose is. >> I have a question about the the little windows under the eaves. >> Yes, >> that does look like that's how it is now. I suppose

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>> the up in the attic. >> Yeah, >> that's how it is now. Oh, wait, wait, wait. No, that's how it is. >> Yeah. Do not current. >> Oh, no. We don't have that >> because those actually at least the way it's rendered looked three-dimensional outside of the panes of glass when I

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glanced at it. >> This is rendered. This is rendered. >> So, that's why and that's why I wasn't I didn't pick up what Mark and Joe are picking up because I thought, oh, this looks >> Yes. Yes. So it though when they aren't inside the glass, it's definitely a

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different >> look to it. >> Yeah, that render on the side shows some of the exterior. >> It's just really good interior. So I guess let me ask the a question that's

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>> Sorry. Go ahead. >> So can we let our contractor He's on the Zoom. Can we let him >> speak >> speak? Sure. Sure. It's your your presentation. Whatever you like to do. I >> think somebody just needs to unmute him. >> Yeah. He's um if you can see him on

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Zoom. Pedro. He's from Braa Brothers. How you guys doing everybody? >> I'm not sure if you guys could hear me on your end. >> Hold on one second. Let me see if I can speaker. >> You might have to speak up.

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>> Yeah, I just don't like to speak. >> Hold on one second. >> Try that one. Yep. >> Maybe now. >> Yeah. Can you guys hear me? >> All righty. So, I just want to thank you guys for taking the time uh to review

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the application. Um I do want to clarify something on the windows. So, the windows are Provia vinyl replacement windows. Um the reason we went that route is because Matt, they want to save the interior historic trim, the original wood trim on the interior. If you do any

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type of new construction window with SDL grids, um you do ultimately have to replace the interior trim. We could try our best to save it. Um but again, that's a significant cost upgrade to them. They're trying their best to keep the historical presence of the house. Um

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they are investing over $140,000 $150,000 into this project and doing their best to preserve that. The previous homeowner completely neglected the house. I mean, starting with the the front roof on the front porch, we could definitely do something like a tpo with

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the Yankee gutter um to maintain that look, but from everything from the flat roof in the front to the windows and mismatching vinyl replacement windows on the house to keeping some original. Some have grids on the top sash, some don't.

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Some windows are no grids at all. So, to me, it's it's ultimately up to you guys, right? It's a historic society. Um, but I think when a customer is investing this amount of money to preserve that a historic house like this, um, there should be a little bit of wiggle room

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with what they're trying to accomplish here. Um, cuz clearly the previous owner did not invest anything into the house to maintain the the aesthetics of historic. And I don't know how it got approved. I don't know how they replaced the windows or did vinyl siding on a 120

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year old house. But to me, they're trying their best to to preserve that look. >> Yeah. And all your points are very well taken, and it's always it's a dilemma that we run into and a debate that we frequently have. Um, but again, I just don't know how we selectively enforce

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that. Is there any I mean, I mean, maybe you have some answer to that in terms of the interior trim, and I obviously respect and appreciate the, you know, the interior. Being a contractor myself, I have removed the interior trim and replaced it on the numerous old houses. It It's difficult,

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but and tedious, but it can be done. It does add to the cost. But we're looking at a historic house in a historic district. I don't see that we can make an allowance in this case because if we do, then we're forced to

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make allowances in other cases based just on cost. And that's not our purpose here on this board. >> And we do afford wiggle room and we try to do, you know, we really want to work with homeowners. And I do feel bad because I feel that you know, you guys

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obviously are doing a great job and have great ideas, but there's just a couple of things again that we have the cues from the original house and um you know, we're kind of married to them so to speak. And then the only other issue of course is the is the you know the the

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muttons or the rod dividing. Um and I again I don't know whether there's something that you could look into or uh look into the market again. I just don't want to be hasty about it. Um there's we don't have to you know render a vote today. You can come back next month or

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however you want to do it. If you want to talk to the contractor, figure out a plan B, I would certainly rather see that than, you know, making a decision that um is not satisfactory to you. >> Before um

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moving forward, this is this is an awkward question. Um but I'm I'm genuinely curious. So, this is um the historic commission and you make recommendations

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on how to move forward in preserving a house's character in this district. Um what [clears throat] what happens if we say, "Well, they didn't like it, but we're going to do it anyway."

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>> Well, if you if we were to reject were to reject. >> Yeah. So that or we make a recommendation against it, you then have to go to the planning board and uh you can make the same arguments to the planning board and um it hasn't happened but uh for whatever legal reason or

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factual reason or um any other reason that they deemed fit they could override. We're an advisory uh commission so we don't have policing authority and if they deemed it they they could do a number of things. they can remand it to us for further

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consideration or they could override our rejection of it and perhaps give you the relief that uh that you want. But I don't know for certain how that would work because it hasn't happened. you know, every time we've had um we haven't rejected too many because usually we

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make accommodations and things happen that you know that people wind up doing um you know, the ultimate house that's completed is better than what they originally envisioned because of the give and take of the commission. But if you want us to take it to a vote, we can

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do that. I mean, that's, you know, um, >> uh, the part that's just a little bit murky for us is to change windows that are in the same, you know, opening, uh, does not require

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a permit through town. You just do it. Where, again, where does where does the commission come into something like that? We're not making any structural changes or anything like that. So, I'm just really trying to understand how it

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all pieces together. I understand that you're here for for good for good reasons, for good cause. That's I mean, this is what drew us to this house. Um, but and again, you're probably not the right people for me to be asking this. >> You're exact. I mean, kind of, but the

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bottom line is that you're here. I mean, >> you're here. You're our neighbors. I app I I I >> You're on the radar now. >> Yes. Yes. Crossed your fingers and uh changed out the windows and hope that nobody would see it or do anything. Yeah, absolutely that could happen. And I know that it

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happens and you know, it's not like we have policing powers. It's not like we go through the town and try to find those kind of things and report those people. Yes. But it's something that obviously the building department would be made aware of. And I suspect that some action would happen in terms of if

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that was the decision to move forward doing what you want despite getting an approved here. >> Yeah, that's not how we wanted. I don't think that's not how we wanted to to come into the town and and like you know here's what we did. >> I appreciate your question though. I appreciate your you know

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>> it's just to kind of find is very murky for us. >> It it is with an advisory uh commission. So, if we if we could come to some kind of um agreement, if we decided if we could do

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just the front facing windows on River Road with that um window with the exterior >> with the exterior grills >> with the exterior grills. >> All >> what what is currently on the side of

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the house? >> Yeah, on the Elm Street side. So we only have the the future depiction of is the two windows up top and is that is that the configuration? >> Yes, that's exactly how. >> And what's the condition of those windows? >> The two up top are >> missing ps of glass. They're open.

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>> We we put a screen there to keep animals out. >> So what was obviously you're go you what's depicted there is a you know a two over two. Yep. >> Yes. >> What's is that a two over two that's there now? >> Yes. >> Yes. Yes. Keeping that >> is the intent to have an exterior grill

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as well there or no >> is that's a non is that that's sort of like a case >> we will no it doesn't open >> so >> it won't open it doesn't open >> so that window which is east facing um I would think that you probably want to

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replace Lycon with an exterior grill I would think the the top two windows what was being proposed I mean would I be here on the would I see here on the image, the future image, the photo, um, doesn't have a number on it, but

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basically is a depiction of a two over two window, probably like maybe two foot by two foot or two foot by 3 foot with an exterior grill. >> Pedro, are you still here? >> You're right in my neighborhood. I live right around the corner from you on Willow Street.

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>> Oh, yes. So, you know, >> I know the house >> and you know the neighborhood. I mean, what we're looking at is awful, >> right? >> The home. But I understand that's not we trying to beautify it even more. >> Can you guys hear me? >> Yeah.

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>> They're saying um the the depiction um >> yeah, so those two existing windows that are on the gables, it's on both side gables on the east and I guess the west side of the house. Um they were also proposed for Provia windows with two over two grids. Um, but Provilla, like

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I'm not sure the gentleman's name, Provilla doesn't offer SDL grids. Um, from what I'm aware, the top manufacturers that do right now are Anderson 400 series and Marvin Elevate windows. So, if that's something that you the route that you guys want to go and what you guys would accept is just

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the front facade windows and the east facade windows um being SDL, that's that's something to discuss. Um but again it is a significant upgrade which I already did provide the price to them.

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>> Well I don't think uh that the other side the west facing side is visible from the street. I don't know for certain but I doubt that it is. >> Um and I would and on you have a neighbor on the west side. If you

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>> we do it's a dark brown house. It goes back. >> Yeah. You know, obviously the front and the east side are the big ones. >> Yeah. Those are the ones that I fairly

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confident that we can see. Again, if it's something that you want to I don't want to say go back to the drawing board, but if you want to explore the market and see what's there, >> we have explored um on nine.

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Originally for these 11 would be 12 13 14 15 block my calculator >> additional >> additional on Open everything.

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What >> about? It's going to be about that. >> Okay. >> It's going to be about that. Um, do you do you do a vote and then see how it goes and then do another vote? >> Well, somebody's got to make a vote

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[laughter] on that. Well, if if we agree to do the exterior, I would like some leniency on the the front um pitch on the roof.

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I I feel like that's a valid ask. >> It would be able It would help us >> offset the cost. You're asking us to change everything that we've been doing for the years that I've been on the board.

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>> I don't think that I can be comfortable doing that. I don't know about the rest of the board. >> Let's put it to a vote then. >> We're doing our best. >> I understand. because we're already in we're already in 200,000 with the additional we're already in 200,000 for

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the with the additional cost >> we're charged with >> doing a certain job for the town and that's what we're trying to do and I understand your position because I know what it's like to have to work on an old house but I did that with my house.

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>> It's it's for us the roof is a small change um for the aesthetic of the windows that you're asking for. >> Okay. So, um >> I think Pedro wants to talk about the roof one more time before or if it's I don't know if this is just

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now coming in cuz my service is terrible. Pedro, did you have something else to say? >> Yeah. So, one uh one small comment on the pitch of the front uh flat roof. So, right now it's probably existing 112 pitch. Um it has torch down rubber on

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it. um has a ton of issues. What we proposed was a 312 pitch with asphalt shingles. Um if you guys like, I could provide the GAF technical bulletin that it states that the lowest pitch that you can install shingles on is a 212. You just have to do double uh synthetic

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underllayment. Um so if that's something that you guys want to consider because if the pitch right now is a 112, we could bump it to a 212 which is slightly noticeable. um and just install shingles, but I believe you your guys biggest concern is

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the Yankee gutter system. >> Well, yes, and the flat and not being able to see a visible roof. Uh because of the again the original construction was this flat roof which makes it an Italianade structure. So, I think that that's probably the most important thing

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because you're basically detracting from the architectural the classic architectural lines of an Italianade structure by putting a pitch on that front roof. You're changing the style of the roof. Um, >> uh, can we can we maybe propose a vote

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to to keep the roof with the Yankee system, um, with the windows as proposed. Right. >> Um so, um >> how does this work when we like when you

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>> Well, it's going to be your um I don't think any unless any of the commission members want to propose a vote on it. Someone's got to someone has to make a motion that we approve the application. But if you're basically asking us to

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move the application, so it's going to be on your recommendation. and nobody's none of the commission members unless somebody wants to do that are is going to move the application, but we will take a vote on your proposal. So, I I just want to make sure that we're on the same page as far as the proposal, which

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is that um the Yankee gutter on the front porch will be will be preserved, but you're going to use a shingle type roof material. And what is the pigeon? No, I think if we keep the Yankee, >> it's going to be a true

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>> flat >> flat Yankee system. >> Preservation of the Yankee gutter >> and windows as as proposed. >> Yes. >> Windows as proposed. >> Okay. And so so that names the issue

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that the window the case on the outside are different. say, >> "Oh, you're asking me." Um, yeah. >> Well, >> and then it would be the six over one, not six over six. >> We're happy to do the six over six, >> but with the snap in

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>> with the >> interior. >> I think it's I think it's between the panes is what it is. >> Will the motion be um six over six? >> Yes. >> Yes. every time.

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>> I'm not a window expert, but ironically >> the historic district is >> I feel that if it is 66 interior that almost adds even more of a distraction from the inside. I would almost preer

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over one because then it's a minimal visual. >> I've seen houses, but the my parents have that six over six. >> Um And given the fact that you said this is actually how it was done in 1903.

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>> In 1903 it's was done. >> It was done but was done on a different style of houses as opposed to Italian ace wasn't done. That's [clears throat] >> but the true but this was this house at that time for

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whatever reason that was historically what the house >> it was 6 over6 because you can see the bottom. I think it's period accurate, but not >> period accurate. >> And my point is that I would almost prefer a six over one if we're going

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with the internal because I feel that the internals are look even more obvious that it's not on the outside. >> That's your >> it's an aesthetic thing. >> Yeah. See if that's your decision. Yeah. >> Yeah.

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>> Okay. So on the applicant's request, a motion is being made uh or that can commission take a vote on the application modified uh to the extent that the flat roof currently existed on the front porch and the Yankee gutter is

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preserved. The windows um will be six over six, but as opposed to simulated divided light or actual divided light, uh the actual grills of the replace windows will be on

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the interior only. Am I correct? >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Okay. Um could we get a vote? Could we get a vote on one question? >> Sure. This won't be there if >> Well, we don't know. We have no decision

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on what we exterior b it's just based on what this drawing is. It looks like it's going to be some type of trim. They've listed it in the their description. >> This this is >> the exterior trim would be the hardy. this there's talking about uh

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already smooth trim boards >> and that's not to >> but we've been approving the asex but we've been approving the hardy siding but we come up the hardy trim boards do you know what the dimensions

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of the Hardy trim boards are >> is it 54 by four or five quarter by Let me write it, >> Pedro. >> Yeah. So, I I heard you mention that you guys do approve AX. So, the Hardy trim is five quarter by4. And if you're asking me, we we're James Hardy Elite

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Preferred Contractor. >> I believe Hardy is made to mimic wood more than than Azac or PVC. >> Okay. So, you're it's five quarter by by four, >> correct? which is what's there right now >> which we have not had a problem. I mean

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I know we haven't ruled on the AAC but I mean I don't think >> that the Hardy and the AAC are similar. >> Okay. But sticking you said you had question too. >> Yeah. I'm just confirming that this would be for the front windows and also the windows that face L. It would

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be all these windows not just the the forward facing windows. Right. Okay. I just want to be clear what we're voting on. Okay. So, I'm going to just so we have a consistent record. So, the application uh is modified and a vote is being

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sought by the applicant that the uh front voyage roof remain flat and that the Yankee gutters be preserved, that the windows as proposed um remain, but that they be of a 6 over6 character but with internal divided

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light um frames on the inside. Correct. Correct. >> Okay. Um Cheryl, if you want to take a roll call. >> Um we need a motion in a second. >> Well, again, I think this is a little bit different because I don't know that anybody's taking nobody's making a

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motion. So, it's on the request of the applicant. >> Okay. Mr. >> No, >> Mr. Schlooter. >> No. >> Mr. I've never voted on something like this before. Um, if this vote were to be

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negative, I think you should try the planning commission and see if they're willing to overrule it. But, uh, I'm going to abstain. I don't feel qualified. I don't quite understand the difference. >> Mrs. Pora. >> Um,

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Mr. >> No. >> Mrs. No. So um obviously the options would be to if you want to take it to the planning board that um you could [clears throat]

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do that or if there is any modification to the plan um you could rec reapply to us and we can address it again. If it's something if there's some type of a product or something that's out there if you want to address it with your

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contractor we welcome that. we'd be happy to to hear the application again with any modifications and and do whatever it is that we can do to to accommodate you know to the extent that we can. Um you know unfortunately this didn't work out not

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easy obviously you can see that by the extension of two members. Um it's a it's a it's a tough decision but you know we have a function here and that's exactly uh you know what's being done. >> Okay. Thank you very much. >> Okay, then moving along, we have Sanford

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Nick, who I'm sure is very excited to come. will pass. >> Well, it's informal >> Saturday Gillespie Avenue block 51 block >> and we're being proposed of course is

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replacement windows. >> Not the windows. Um so this is Patrick. >> Patrick Jean, nice to meet everybody. I'm also wonder >> um >> yes, so yes, we're coming here informally

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tonight because we're starting this process. I was a little afraid to start to get too into this process and fall in love with something realizing that it might not be allowed or whatnot. And as

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you'll see from the pictures, I don't even know and neither one of us know what style house we live in. So, um, >> just know it's old. >> Yes. >> And it needs a little bit. So, you'll see on the um the first page

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that I've provided uh we believe the house was built in what we've been told is 1917. Um by a man that built A, B, and C at the same or around the same time. Um our driveway,

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I don't know, maybe >> or it used to be all one lot. >> So, it was one driveway that went up at Gillespie. probably you guys probably know more than us of like >> when Captain's Point >> way you went in. >> Um now our driveway goes off of

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Captain's Point instead of off of >> but we still have a lesson address. >> Yes. Um, so we the the one thing that um, well, because it's an old house, we're

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dealing with the inefficiencies of the the windows, the um, insulation, etc. So, uh, we're hoping that we can start the process of trying to at least stop wasting money on energy and put that

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money into buying windows. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There's a lot of And for the record, we did speak the call and uh we you talked a little bit about the process and I recommended that this would be probably an appropriate way to handle it just to get some idea

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>> absolutely of um of what's what's there. So, um of what you know sort of the commission would prefer um things of that nature. So, with that being said, uh what's been presented are a bunch of different photographs. The original photo that shows the antique what is now

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would be antique car. Any idea when those photos were taken? Probably 1930s. >> That would be my hard to tell what type of windows there. >> It's a Yeah, it's a mix. We do have a lot of replacement windows in there.

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There are some original windows still >> the view from the street. So you have that one. >> Yes. >> Obviously the critical one because that's the one that's visible the left feet. >> Yeah. >> And um I think the most prominent >> would be that part portion of the house.

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>> Yes. >> So um what what do you >> what are we thinking? Yeah. So I think and what I'd like to understand like on the third I was just messing around

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whatever picture this picture I was kind of just messing around on the internet and um we came from Princeton Road. We were in a new build. Um and one of the things that I liked about that house is

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the fact that we actually had a lot of like natural light. Um right now our our windows are pretty small. Um, I would ideally would like to make them bigger. I don't know if that's allowed or not. Um, and I don't even know what

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type of style that I should be going after. So, that's kind of where I was, you know, some of these other pictures are just more or less like ideas of like the the different kinds of what

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muttons. Is that what they're they're called? So I just would like a little bit of understanding of >> a little bit of guidance. >> Yes. Can we make them bigger? Can we >> put our time and effort in? >> Yeah.

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>> We originally the one um that is visible from the street right now. It was replaced. I don't know. It's probably back in the 80s or 90s, but um the brick part of the house used to be like a cardboard or something that could get

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through um back to the river. >> There was a porch there at some point. That's no longer >> that. Yeah. Up top below it was there was a car in the picture in like the carport. >> Um I would love to make that into some sort of like

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>> a functioning like door again. Right now we're using that room as like our mud room. >> Um but again not sure if if >> again street those windows that are visible that >> are you looking to simply replace those

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or put something similar? Do you want to make them bigger? >> Make them bigger. >> Yeah. Small. >> Well, it's hard to say without any kind of simulation. >> Yes. Well, that's kind of where I started going in with my little AI things to be like, hey, make this bigger

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with window boxes, like >> playing around with just like what would it look like? And would something like this? >> That room itself is a very odd room. >> Um, it's that whole part of the house is very

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odd. I mean, it used to be a garage, obviously, or a pass through. The room above it is just this giant open room. There's nothing above it. The ceiling goes way, way up, and it's kind of off

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of a bedroom. Um, but the windows for the size of that room are very tiny. Again, it's I mean obviously the images that you have when you have the AI rendering larger windows. >> Yeah. >> You know, those larger windows certainly

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don't detract from, you know, the aesthetic of the house. Okay. I think the historic nature of the house, Joe, I don't know what she's pants >> because they they look like they fit and they're correct. >> Yeah. Right now they're obviously

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they're very decorative. At least that the bottom got >> Yeah. >> the right for you that show the decorative decorative moldings on the bottom. >> Is that preferable to go that route? Like I like that route, but I didn't really know if I'm going against because I don't know what style this house is

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and if I'm going against >> it's kind of an English tutor, >> right? True t. It's got some English cottage too. Yeah. Is there specific window types for that? >> I mean, honestly, the types of windows that are depicted in the images that you

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provided are all the so the house alone in a historic district. It's not really the type of house that we ordinarily see, which is, you know, 1800s, early 1900s of a particular style. Yeah. >> Um, this is a bit different. So, um, you

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know, you probably would have a bit of flexibility as long as there's some type of a historic rounding on it. And, you know, again, the images that you've shown with the larger one, those certainly look historic. They don't look um, you know, contrived in any way.

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>> They look better. >> And, and you know, it's funny when you look at those other the AI images, the view from the street that you provided, the window does look a bit undersized. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There's a huge field of that proportionally if it

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>> probably was a door or something. Okay. >> Well, it was definitely a >> door to the garage, >> right? >> Well, the lower one. Yeah. And the upper one was a door to the porch probably. >> Right. So, that railing on the porch uh eliminates the the portion.

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>> Yeah. >> Yeah. With that railing gone, now that hangs >> never never would have known. >> Yeah, that window is appropriately centered above a railing >> when it when we moved in. It was just like a raw

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iron kind of thing that was tiny, too. So, we got we took that down falling off the >> But that's a good point. I didn't think about that. >> But that original the original when it was actually you could actually probably walk out onto it was much bigger. So,

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that does make sense. Whoever removed that railing um without realizing what they were doing changed >> changed the dimension. Yeah. >> 100%. >> When did you when did you remove that? >> We didn't remove anything. >> I mean the

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there was like a little raw iron >> there was like >> thing in front of the the window. >> You couldn't there was no way to get out there or anything like that. >> But we didn't take this thing done. >> Any interest in putting that back that back up? Oh, that little

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>> I don't have a problem with that. >> This little thing. >> I don't know. >> Miracle is light. >> I mean, >> I know it is light. >> I It is light. I mean, >> can you tell if that curb is ransom with the brick if that is that the original

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or >> tell by by the brick looking at it? >> I think it is. Like we can bring in the actual photo. That's the one thing that that was left in the house and that's Ivy. >> But it's hard to tell on this picture.

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Like >> if you look at the actual photo, it does appear that it is. >> It was perfect. >> It was Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. >> I don't know if it's >> It looks like roof line of the garage. >> Yeah. >> It looks like that. And they put that glass window in there. >> Yes.

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>> Um and and sort of >> Yes. >> If you look if you compare the two. So if you look at the original, it's very hard to tell, but I meant to see. Yes, it was there. And then you put like they put the windows on the first floor with they filled in the arch by putting sort of like a transom window. >> Correct.

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>> Well, that's looks exactly that's why I was questioning what they did >> looked like it had been disturbed. >> No, >> it didn't look like it. >> Um I don't know. I mean, I'm not sure. >> Yes, >> that's hard to tell. >> Looks It looks pretty consistent.

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If that if that you can tell if that in this picture, the original picture, if that's herb, then that's >> definitely we could actually bring in the photo and you can see because it's I it's all ivy. It's grown over. >> You can see that it's actually the structure.

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>> Yeah. >> I just don't know if the original brick. >> Oh. Um, >> look, I can almost see it here >> in the bottom corner of this. It almost looks like you can see the >> Yeah. No, you >> in the photos we have you can definitely

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see it. >> Yeah, >> but a photo of a photo it starts to just >> the curve is there. Yeah. >> So, what is does is that little porch that's uh above the garage is it just on that one plane or what's does it wrap around or is

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there >> it looks like it's just on that one facet. It's like um >> it doesn't even look like you said the one facet you had the facet where the garage was and then the one to the left. It doesn't even look on this original photo that that window that little window was even there. >> I don't know if it was or wasn't. It's

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tough. >> Oh, the one on the side. >> Oh yeah, right. >> Yeah. [clears throat] I I am not sure if it was >> the tiny window on the side. >> Oh, that was there. If you look right here, >> it's hard to tell. >> But in the original, >> it's kind of in the Yeah, it's kind of

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in the shadow. Yeah, it's there was a flash almost. You can see. >> Yeah, >> it was there. >> This is a bad photo of a photo. >> If we brought in the original, you'll see it there. >> So, somewhere

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>> the same same size there was also I mean >> actually those windows are original. They're like the single pane. Um >> there's a a window >> basement either go in or out. >> Those are um they are

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>> are they fixed? >> Fixed. >> They're fixed. We also have two windows with the the weights the pulley weights on them. >> Yeah. >> Those are on the side and the back of the house. >> Um

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>> so um yeah, it's with what's visible from the street um needs to do. >> So I would think that um making a larger opening of that one window above the garage.

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>> I can't see a problem. I think it actually, you know, looks like that smaller windows kind of floating out there, especially with Kad's point, you know, pointing out that that porch used to be there. Yeah, >> that if you en made that larger but obviously with a similar configuration.

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In other words, that similar >> obviously interior and exterior grills but a similar simulated light pattern which would then require you to probably make the window to the left a bit bigger as well. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But then you run into the problem

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that it might be as symmetric to what's on that flat plane where you have those two domed windows where the door is. And that clearly is an original portion of the house that uh is an aesthetic that I don't know that you want to >> I want to keep those. Well, I want to keep we definitely need to replace them

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just because of water. >> Yeah. >> And efficiency, but I want to keep them. >> See, those are clearly original windows. They said shutter. They are >> close. >> Correct. >> Your AI rendering does show that you're

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keeping those proportions exactly the same. >> See, >> the only thing that that shows a little bit bigger in the rendering >> is the um >> the dormers look bigger. >> Yes. Which those are two bedrooms up

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there and that we're not changing that. So you have to change >> not changing that that those right now are replacement windows but we need to change them to like aesthetically so that the front of the house looks

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uniform but they're not going those are not going to change >> in size. >> Even the hot topic of the evening is the dividers. Are those dividers inside or external? >> Um on which window? Some some are, some

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aren't. >> Um, those are So, the one in the middle is has been replaced. That's like a um a true like replacement window that's not in there. The the two that are on

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like the angled sides, they are inside outside >> with the single pane. Um >> I guess I'm going this is given the earlier discussion. >> Yeah. All your windows Yeah. would need to

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have the external. >> Yes. >> And >> Yeah. And that's kind of one of the things as you were listening. >> Oh, yeah. We picked up >> like, "Oh, how much is this going to cost?" Like, >> "No, I was going to go down and look at like Marvin windows and I've been

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looking on um you know, the Anderson >> Anderson 400 series is what a lot of people are bringing before the board. We like those because They're fetching it. True. >> Okay, that's I wrote that down. >> Anderson 400s. Okay,

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>> that is fine. >> Impella makes a window, you know, with the exterior grills, too. So, >> okay. Okay. >> So, the upshot is that yeah, some leeway would certainly be allowed in terms of making them, you know, size increased.

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Um, you know, I think they have a little bit more of a problem with those certainly those arch windows. I don't know. I don't think want to replace those. And then the one that's above those arch windows, sort of diagonal above the door, is an original window. Did you see that? >> It's an original window with a lacrosse ball that went through it.

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>> So up there, >> you can kind of see a little like in original. >> That's a piece of cardboard that and it's plastic sealed right now until we could figure out what to do with the windows. >> Boys, >> yes. Like why bald in our bedroom?

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Obviously probably I would think that replacement of that in like kind would be the way that you want to go. >> Okay. >> Not necessarily increase the size of that. >> I don't know whether you know but what you have to do is you have to >> you know provide us with specifics

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obviously have leeway you know we would you know I think that's the give and take now. With that being said, can I ask you a question on that point of like do we have to replace with the same shape that like this design that's over

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that or like can I go to say something like the iron is not that? >> Yeah. like can I go and do like different shape like the diamond muttons or do I have do I like stay exactly the

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way it was? >> I think it's hard to say. We have to sort of see if >> each way that's fine. That's fine. Um >> but they do need to be on the outside. >> Yes. >> Yeah.

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Okay. Um, my last question for you just because they tend to be while I would we are using that what used to be a garage, it was just the living room when we moved in because we have two boys. We're using it as that that um the brick

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garage area is like our mud room right now. So, I would love to be able to like have like almost like doors, glass doors that go into it. Um, instead of >> where was the garage like here? >> Yeah. Was that Yes.

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>> Make those doors if those two. >> Yeah. Like, can I do like a glass? >> Same shape though. Same shape. Yeah. >> Yeah. Same shape, but just >> so many products that are out there, you would never notice the difference. That's not a problem because I mean some of these >> because originally it was

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>> was a garage >> the door. >> Yeah, that had a door. >> Okay, that's fine. That's great. Okay, >> I didn't really know what to do there and we're not bonded with window that's there now. >> That was changed over time window. >> Yes.

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>> Yeah. >> So, going back to the door would be putting it back more to it >> to what it was. Okay. Although it probably would have been wood doors, like barn doors as opposed to glass, but >> yeah. >> Yeah, definitely. >> That will give you a a visual impression

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that you may or may not like it once you stick it on. >> Oh, yeah. >> The two doors here which are down over to the ground >> down. >> Yeah. Well, that's the other >> lower in that room or Yeah. >> Yeah. You step down two or three steps

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down from the main house. >> Lower entrance. >> Yes. So, you're right. I think like >> you might want to look at that. >> Yeah, that before you make that decision. Yeah, >> there's some other stuff. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Do you have an architect yet or

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>> No, I didn't know if we needed an architect or like we're not really changing anything like in the house. >> It's just windows based. >> So, it's just windows based. >> No, it's a big investment. The type of windows that you're looking at are probably going to be pretty expensive.

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at all cost, but you you know an architect is would be so helpful to just usually >> work on the scale >> and they research the products and they give you a couple of options. It just seemed like it would make your life a lot easier for somebody to have them

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draw up a full set of plans or anything. Just, you know, lead you in the right direction. >> Got it. >> And they, >> you know, take your ideas and validate them for you, too. Yeah. >> Or tell you that you're crazy. >> Yes. >> Yes. Yeah. >> And then you know when it comes to a you

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know a formal application you need to give us specific elevations and the type of windows and a specification that we can make a decision on. >> Okay. It's not sort of I can't do it on an idea or a couple of options, right? So by using an architecture or some type of a professional, even if it's a

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contractor that would put something together, it would give us details at least base our decision on which, you know, once you make whatever you submit, you're kind of stuck with there's an agreed upon >> change to it. >> Okay. So, >> right. And what I think it's like

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interest toward whatever is your your AI renderings show your vision or your goals. You want light. >> Yes. Right? >> You want to fill the space proportionally and then I think an architect would now use that as his jumping off point knowing what house

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historically had and >> I agree with art. >> Yeah. No, that makes sense. >> James is an architect. He would have probably given you some suggestions but >> okay, but there's plenty. >> Yeah. No, thank you. >> All right. >> Yeah, this has been super helpful. I

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appreciate it. >> Thank you. kind of figured that maybe giving a little guidance would be helpful. >> Yes, 100%. It kind of gets us on the right direction. >> Great guys. Thank you. You have any questions? Thank you. >> There's no limitation as to how many time. So if you are in your search and

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you come up with a couple of ideas and you want to come back absolutely just, you know, provide them to us so that we can >> there any particular architects that are in the historic district? >> Can't really make a recommendation. No recommendation, but >> just want to hear it.

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>> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thanks, guys. >> Appreciate it. Have a great night. >> Okay. So, um I'll have you come on up. You can do some some things about the uh district. >> Yes. >> Just introduce yourself to

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>> Could you just take one of the >> Christina? And just uh full disclosure, um Caroline contacted me about this and I said I suggested to her that instead of me speaking of just me, I I suggest she come here

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>> to our meeting that has proposal here. >> I'm Carolyn Ferguson, 7 Colonial Court. I'm also a vice president of the Fair Haven Business Association. Um I'm here today to ask you for a small bit of procedural help for our small businesses

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that are located in the historic district. Um the a problem that we've encountered so for over a decade that uh small businesses have been coming to the business association and telling us that

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the sign process is challenging to navigate. It eats up a lot of time and cost. Um, and especially when the businesses are located in the historic district, uh, there's been frequent requests for us to find some way to have a simplified process for uh, somebody

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who's uh, making a change to a sign. Um, this we've been hearing this for over a decade, but recently we have three new businesses setting up in town or two new businesses and one moving. uh all three came to us and said like I'm trying to

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deal with the sign process and I just find it very burdensome very hard to navigate um unnecessarily expensive unnecessarily costly of time uh so I'm here to ask uh to make a proposal in a

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very narrow case uh for some uh small procedural change that might help our small businesses um in the current state any bit time a business needs to change a sign, they need to go to the burrow, fill out a

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zoning permit application, and that eventually feeds them into the historic preservation commission for review. In the thing I gave you, there's a diagram. And you can see that the top is the current process and this, you know, basically they

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design their new content. Then they have some yellow steps with the burrow. The pink steps are with the historical preservation commission. And then at the end they get to build and install their new uh change content. Um you can see

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that they pay $200 for to apply for a permit. Uh the review of the permit takes 10 days which is reasonable. That's what's required by law and the burough does it consistently which is fine. Uh but the part for the historic

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preservation commission really can add one and a half to two or even more months. they have to ask to get on the agenda. They come and present their um situation. So um we have a proposal uh

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it is in first of all anytime a business is going to change a sign structure we do not want to change that. But if they're only ch if they have an existing structure and they just want to change some text or images on a panel of

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their sign, we'd like to propose that they don't have to come to the uh historic preservation commission. Basically, their sign has already been reviewed. It's been approved. They've already gotten the advice and they're

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just changing words or images. Um, I'm not sure because I don't know your committee super well, but I kind of understand that maybe you wouldn't be commenting on words or images. Um, and that you might be more focused on

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structure and materials. >> Yes. uh the aesthetics probably not, but you know certainly if there was a circumstance that there would be some type of an aesthetic that would be you know contrary to what's currently there or contrary to what we've seen and you

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know the commission has the right to probably reject something like that. So it's hard to just say automatically that we you know we just if there's a replacement sign then we you know that we would give it a pass. Um it's also not our decision as to you know we have

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jurisdiction we have jurisdiction. this is more of a something that probably needs to be addressed by council or more, you know, it's um but I just uh you know, we try to get we get those sign applications on right away. I don't know that we we've certainly never rejected one. I know we've done we've

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rejected awnings years ago, but we make it as easy and and quick as possible for the applicants. And it's really just a you know a put through generally and I agree, you know, the sort of routine nature of that probably, you know, everyone's probably saying, well, why are we even doing that? But it's for the time that I think it's, you know, since

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it is our jurisdiction, for the one time out of a hundred that there is something that's objectionable or problematic that the commission should have right to weigh in on it. So the answer, at least my thought is that I've got no problem with streamlining the process, but I just don't know how it gets done. And

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and we can't relieve ourselves of jurisdiction. In other words, we can't tell, you know, the uh the building the uh zoning department to just say, "Hey, don't send it our way. Just go ahead and approve it." Um, you know, unless there unless uh it could be done

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simultaneously or not have to, you know, I think that to get it done quicker because there's no fees for having to apply fees regardless of what we do on it. maybe somehow getting to us earlier in the process, but a lot of times

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people don't even know that they have to come for us until they apply for a signed permit and that's at the you know that's at the zoning office, >> right? >> So I I think that if we could get if they could get on the agenda earlier, maybe that's a >> Yeah, I don't think I mean this is kind

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of assuming that they get on the agenda very promptly. Um >> I have a question. Um, do we does the commission have to vote on every sign? Is is there any way that

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uh something could be sped through with an original look like by you and we have six six criteria and they're all met to us and just boom boom and turns it around. It's not money. It's if it's 60 days,

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it's two months. And that's where >> again I understand again I don't know that that's a process that we have the ability to modify um and it's uh kind of difficult to you know for me to make for a singular person to make the decision of the commission because it's still a

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decision of the commission um and I know that you know it's great to be able to have one maybe a vote by email if everybody feels that it's just a replacement sign because most of the time people would probably just say yeah it's a replacement sign it's nothing different, you know, the applicate, you

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know, and speed it through even online. But I know that there's been a problem with even having anybody respond. You know, sometimes we don't even get can get people to respond to say whether they're coming or not. So, I don't know whether practically speaking that is a that's going to work.

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>> Yeah. Now, we understand that coming to this commission is asking for the advice of this commission. if you guys had a set of standards that were just published that we knew we had to comply with like it feels like we could get the

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advice up front rather than coming here and then getting the advice like >> no to answer your question I don't think there's this set of standards for signs that meet historic criteria >> I've noticed that Redbank's historic commission does have a a set of and one

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of the criteria they include is like the colors have to off the Benjamin Moore historic palette. >> Interesting. >> And like that would be something if we know up front >> people could just do that. >> Is there a list of for business commercial not home of a business

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museum? Is there a list of things that says these are the things that's that are under the purview of the HBC like I imagine curtains or not? >> Are they? >> I'd have to take a look and see but I don't think so. Like like if someone put bright neon curtains in the window with

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fluorescent would we would someone say that's not theoretically decorative but paint is wood is not really something that you know you don't >> so when someone comes here with their sign we've often commented on it but

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usually it's oh that's interesting like man the um example I don't think we've ever said that's an inappropriate image Sure. Have you ever commented on font? >> Um, not that I recall possibly, but nothing

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comes to mind. >> Do consistently comment on on the shape and the material and the >> alignment of it with the neighborhood. Yeah. >> So, would you comment on on lettering and font? >> Yes, you do sometimes. But I guess my

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question is that could be somebody could describe what those things are and >> Oh, I see. >> You know what I'm saying? >> I mean, the simplest thing, it has to be within the same context of the old sign. It doesn't change the shape. >> Well, that's path one. Path one is

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changes to the sign stuff. Path two is no change at all to the structure. It's swapping in the the vinyl shape. Yeah. And just as a few examples, like um the uh by George baby, they have an empty uh

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space. So they put a panel with two ducks. Now it's going to be occupied by an interior decorator. So they're going to take that little panel out and now instead of two ducks, it'll say Mary's interior decorating. >> Um >> we approved that, I think. Right. We did.

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>> So travel, right? Luxury travel. >> Yeah. >> I don't know anything about that. Yeah. They're not in >> She came last one. >> Okay. Yeah, I don't know anything about that. >> But it's it's really for businesses that

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a new business that is moving into a space like we have a lot of buildings that have signs with like two or three panels and a new tenant comes, they swap their business name onto the panel without changing the structure. Uh some businesses move and do that. Um, and

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then sometimes it's just routine maintenance. My son has gotten old. Um, and I need to repaint it. And you sometimes it's, you know, um, Ferguson dental care becomes Bill's dental care. >> Have your, has your proposal for independent brought it to the building

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department or the zoning department? >> No. I'm I'm almost thinking that that that criteria if it's just simply a replacement sign again of like kind almost everything identical to what was there uh then you know we don't need to

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hear that you know place them because we put it through every time and we say the same thing it's like kind you know so maybe that's something that the zoning officer would be able to consider uh the you know the identical exchange and maybe that's not something because

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clearly we wouldn't be having any kind of issue with it if it's a light exchange side to side. >> Like if there could be a definition of what that scenario is, then the zoning officer as part of their >> zoning permit review could just confirm

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like, oh, it meets this situation so it doesn't have to go to the >> that would be on his checklist. So, somebody comes in, I'm coming into Fair Haven, I have a business. He goes through whatever. And he goes, by the way, are you going to have a sign change? What is it? Is it like time? Who know? No, we never got to see it.

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>> Yeah. >> And that would be an enormous help to these small business owners. Um, one of the things I try to always make sure people know, our business owners are so truly small, and you know, some of them, a lot of them are just a person who started a business. We have a number of

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businesses where somebody has a full-time job and owns a business in town. Um, it's just them. Um, these are not people, they can't afford to spend a lot of money on professionals. They're not great at navigating these procedures.

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>> Uh, the borrow forms are not that easy to fill out if you've never done it before. Um, so it would be an enormous help. >> Yeah. I I mean, the HPC application is pretty simple. Generally when the people get a sign, the sign company comes up with a like a little schematic of it. So

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they would have to do that probably anyway as a proof. >> Totally. >> And that's generally what we base our decision on. So I don't know that it's so complicated coming here, but I'm certainly uh can appreciate the delay in time since we only meet once a month. And time and money, business is business. I get that. Yeah. So maybe

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we'll figure out or try to explore what the issue is um how it would be handled in the zoning office and see if again if it would be an identical exchange you know sign for sign whether there would be a circumstance that we would not have to get involved. >> Yeah it feels like it would be a benefit

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to a lot of people to not have to deal with these very routine matters. Um >> it's probably the most common application that we have. it is um it's the most heavily used. So that I mean it would be deliver huge value to our business owners particularly this is

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something they've been raising for 10 years and the one thing I will stress like even when I talked to Katie from your perspective this goes very smoothly but I will tell you from their perspective and what they're telling us

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it's hard they've never done it um they're not even they don't fully understand why they have to do it the value is not always very apparent to them. Um it does delay their you know their goal is to get open and to be seen

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by the public as soon as possible and it's kind of critical for them that that not get delayed. Um, so like a twomonth window before they could put a sign up to them is very significant, especially if they're a business that's been

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operating and now they're moving to a new location and they always had a sign and now for two months they have no sign, then they'll get another sign. Um, but like I said, it is something they've been asking for for a long time. Let me test this because u I mean the purpose

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of coming here is to maintain the historic sort of aesthetic particularly >> traditional streets. >> Um do we do you recall many times uh when people have come in with signs because I've been here with signs and we make making all kinds of suggestions and

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things but has there ever been a sign that we said shapes wrong material? We talked about material but it's it's usually suggestions that might help them. >> Yeah. >> But to them it's like 60 days after they wanted to you know put order in.

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So there is there is an option that people can come voluntarily just you know the first at the first meeting they started thinking about a sign but I'm just trying to I just want to make sure what would cost the pole apart. I mean somebody takes a square sign and and paints it orange, red and green and

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makes it a circle or something and always signs around their triangles, >> right? And what we're saying is anything related to structure or lighting, we want to keep that on the same path. >> It's only when the structure is completely unchanged, but someone needs to change text or images.

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>> Yeah. So like the two ducks might become three ducks or Ferguson dental care might become Smith >> replacement sign >> or the cardinal becomes a ball. >> Exactly. [laughter] >> All right. So I will reach out uh for the next meeting and see about uh talk

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to them to zoning and see how we can effectuate this and then maybe come up with some type of criteria that we could utilize. And Kenny, I see that you've been involved in this. So maybe you want to spearhead the criteria that you think you could use for a replacement something. >> Sure.

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>> Great. Thank you very much for considering it. >> Uh absolutely. Yeah. And um we'll be in touch if you want to come back next month. Maybe we'll have some answers for it. >> Okay. That's great. >> No, that we really just we literally got calls from three businesses in one week

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and you know we were like we have to try to do something. So >> sure. 9086757533. And it's >> 7533. >> Carolyn Ferguson. >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> And uh what's your email? >> Carolyn. C A R O L Y N F27

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atgmail >> 27. >> My birthday [laughter] or just to be clear before you reach out to draft a proposal for >> I don't think that's necessary. I'm going to see if it's something that's even doable. >> Got

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>> right. Like if you guys said when the sign is just changes and it's limited to XYZ already. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you very much for considering this. >> Thank you. >> All right, moving right along for the

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bsentennial hall update. Why don't we I was getting behind the uh >> I know here in the council meetings I'm always beh >> Yeah. So in terms of the approval of the storm windows >> just uh just announce yourself for

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>> Oh uh Christina Mki Town um I believe it was still in your court and what you thought this was the only information they gave to us. Um and we we went back and asked was there anything else? Is there anything else

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they can provide? And they pretty much said this is >> yeah so we had a couple of bunch of things to decide the last time was regarded by Centennial but we didn't really have a visual as to the storm window. Didn't feel comfortable making a

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decision on that. So it was excised from the remainder of the uh the things that we discussed and approved. Among those things discussed in the group were the the punch list items that brought about by the Goldstein group. Yeah. And testified to by um Miss Burwin I believe

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and then obviously the landscape architecture and design of um Steven Prague which we referred in full. Um so after the fact I think we were given some information on it but it was still kind of abstract to be able to determine um the fix and now we have at least at

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least a couple of privileges. The two images that I'm interested in are the ones showing not necessarily the the storm the the actual storm window specs but the ones showing historic windows with storm windows on top of them any is

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that what they're going to look like >> from my understanding? Yes. >> Yeah. And my think they still don't show stained glass though. They show up, right? It's still made over a grill. >> Glass. >> Yeah, it's stained glass except glass is

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>> it's built the same way. Glass is >> No, you have experience with this. We were talking before about it. The type of >> the type of window and pastel storm windows. >> It's basically looks like an aluminum frame. That makes sense. Well,

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>> it is. And that is there one question we had at the last meeting was what's the cleaning challenge over time as because those stain those windows at this chapel are just so unique. They're

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vivid over time. Does it get cloudy? Is it easy to maintain? Is this something DPW we need to have a maintenance schedule? >> They have to take a small window. Just leave them. Yeah. >> I had I had sort of some questions because I I I see these pictures, but they have to

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do with how how customized it has to be and how or not. So, they have frames and we have windows that are in in two parts. And my one question is, can these storm windows uh will their frames

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overlap the frames of our windows in this channel? Because you don't want storm window frame in the middle of our window. So, I'm assuming >> these are these are ordered custom. >> Um, in other words, >> fish like that because those are double

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windows at this chapel. Correct. >> Yeah. Some of them uh I don't have the pictures. Yeah, they're all they're double hung. They go up and down. I don't know if they're the same size, the top, the bottom, but what I'm saying is that wherever they meet at Fisk Chapel, these frames should

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>> they should match match them. >> Yeah. And I didn't know if that was true or not. Then um they would also be sized to fit the recession in our in our windows if this channel travels and that makes sense. It looks like these fit right in and they're sort of screwed in

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with these and that would prevent >> attaching window. >> Yeah. Yeah. So you can see the same sort of business. >> Yeah. >> My question is one request we made to um

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the architect was that whatever product was proposed to the storm windows and whoever builds that that there was an expertise about using that storm wind storm window product with a historical building. So it so that didn't leap out

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at me from the first two pages, right? And I don't know, did they provide these examples? No. >> Yes, they did. And I would imagine this is fairly status quo. Um,

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we're trying to preserve this window and like with storms coming and, you know, branches flying, the BB gun incident. Um, this is, from what I understand, it's fairly run-of-the-mill, but again, this

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is fairly new to me, this type of uh storm window coverage. So, you may have more expertise than I do. >> Um, I had two others. Um, the frames will be the same color. I believe that was we were told the frames would be exact same color as the as the paint.

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>> Yeah. >> The frame, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Um, and I think this was raised And I I don't think we can do anything about it, but the absorption or deflection of light, I don't know how would that affect the appearance of the uh

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>> might reflection. I would think if you see there's an added reflection because you got two reflective phones >> and but but from the inside of this channel when you're in there at night, but when you're in during the day and

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and it's late, there's wind there are really beautiful. I'm just assuming this one not absorbed the light and somehow throwing you open windows something. >> Does it say anything about that? >> I don't think it's being tinted.

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>> Wouldn't it just be a clear point? >> Standard clear glass. >> Well, I understand. I I don't want to deter from Bsentennial Hall. It's been something I've worked on for four years and I used to be a Girl Scout and go there when I was 5 years old. So, I I

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take this very seriously, but from what I understand, this >> this is the best way to preserve these windows that we love. >> Are they talking about a two track for the double home windows or they're just going to be a single?

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>> I can look. Do you know about that, Sheila? >> I'm sorry. >> A two track for >> about a two track. So that the windows will actually slide or is they going to be just fixed when >> I believe from what I understand it's going to be fixed around the

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>> Yeah, like just to protect the stained glass. Yeah, they don't they mean so the specs that were given are basically standard storm windows over like a residential, you know, standard there's a couple different sizes, but square windows >> that would limit the ability to be able

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to open the windows to let air >> and then and then also there's basically >> I don't know whether these photos >> Oh, no. No, of course. >> I don't know whether the photos even go with the specs. They're not. Yeah. So, it's >> it's >> it's at some point there's got to

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they're going to be custom made storm windows, >> right? >> Yeah. >> And so, are they We still don't really know exactly what's being proposed. So, we're kind of asked to decide it. A little bit of an abstract spill. >> No, I hear you. Especially with just listening to when 28 left. It's it's

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kind of a similar situation. They're just giving mockups of potential windows. You don't have the actual one in front of you. So it's hard for you to make a decision based upon that >> because it's I mean obviously if you do something that's going to olude the windows I mean that's you know devastating to the structure is probably

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the most prominent aspect of the whole structure. >> No I I I want this to be as perfect as we can make it. But I'm not exactly sure how we can move this forward. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? I'm just kind of like a rock in a hard place. Some of

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those questions I just raised, they could be reported just by having them answer them. >> The um the mounts on these windows in these pictures are silver. >> And there's nothing wrong with that, but we're trying to we're we're trying to

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have these storm windows blend in and sort of like original cells. I'm assuming the mounts can be >> painted as well the same way. So just simple things like that. Sheila, is the mounts going to be the same color? Is that or do we not have that information?

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>> All right. So, let me get exactly what questions. >> Yeah, give me exactly what you want. I guess the first thing would be if there's any way of a depiction or a mockup of exactly how this window is going to attach >> will have damp how it's going to attach to the frame

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whether it's going to be a single pane of glass >> or if it's going to have some type of frame element which many of those windows are large I can't imagine just a complete sheet of glass >> very tall >> okay so depiction or mockup how it

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attached to the frame. >> Whether or not it's going to be just a single piece of glass >> or whether it's going to have elements of frames that are going to be sort of overlapping. >> That's what we say windows.

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>> We want the frame to overlap the frames of the windows that are there. >> You want it to be as close to visible as posing. >> Yeah. >> And to Christina's >> the meeting rails of the upper and lower, you want that board to cover that. Yeah.

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>> Wait, can you repeat that? >> The uh >> Sheila, are you taking this down? >> I'm sure. Yeah, I mean, I'll have to listen back to get the specifics. >> Sorry, could you repeat that? >> You want the meeting rails of the upper and lower sash, you want whatever

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center bars on the storm windows to match those so that covers those. Yeah, we're guessing that um because the windows are so tall and just travel, these are going to be they're going to be two of these. I mean, one

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>> one piece of glass that >> doesn't seem like it would be so scary. So, there's probably be more than one. >> So, you want them to overlap wherever these where the sashes meet, right? >> Yeah. >> To Christina's comment earlier, it's interesting because I did zoom in on the

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sashes and There is a little latch. >> Oh wow. >> Above. >> I guess I was thinking about the top one. I was more focused on it. >> There's going to be two separate pieces. >> You said that the little >> No, she said that they would not. That was

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pretty sure she said that >> because they can't do a custom shape for that. Did she say the top? >> It wasn't here from the last >> I believe you're right. >> We asked about the the top. She said that was exactly Do you want to be able to open or

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>> That's an interesting thing. I I don't I don't think they've ever been open. >> I'm afraid it's in antique. You don't want to break it. >> They were built to open the original church. >> Yeah. I have pictures of it. You can you can see where the two terrifies me. Thought that people

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>> Yeah. >> Spongebob. >> Yeah. So I >> will work together with their exact needs and then I can we can send an email out to Chris who can

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>> attach the frame. Will it be a single piece of glass or will the center bars uh match the sash? Will the frame in any way include yes the appearance of the wind >> and the mass frame over

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they've got to have a sort of source for these like what what do they they must you know they give the spec the window but I guess what you also have to say is that you know we're completely in favor of storm windows preservation is the way to go for these you know elements of the of the structure so we're you know from

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a concept standpoint we're all in I think I can speak for everybody on that, but um and with that being said, they must be specking it out to somebody or some vendor instead of it's got to be some kind of a mockup of what it will look like. >> Would there be a way to stipulate moving

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forward with this, but when like preapproval of the sizing or >> No, I I think that the concept of you, you know, you could go back to them and say, "Yeah, move forward with just you know, I don't even know that we need to take a vote on that." Okay, >> I think I may put some I don't know if

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we put anything in the last memorandum but uh yeah I mean that's I think a given but just getting some idea of the visual is what we really need. >> Of course you guys are professionals have visuals have to spec it out to

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somebody. So even put together a rendering or some type of specifications in order to get pricing or even whether it you know they can that fabricated how they could base the fabrication on it. >> Yeah. Even in the mockup or not the this

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is an actual one you can actually see the glass stand or the original frame. Right. Right. that this architecturally historical window that would have been on building

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like that >> back in the day would have been a wood window that would have been h that's the top >> maybe you guys can show what you want when you send it to them. [laughter] Well, I'm just saying that is a historic

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styled sto wooden storm window. Back in the day, that would have been >> what would have been on >> on a building. >> I'm not saying that that's what we have to use. But that is a traditional sto, you know, historic storm. >> But that wouldn't that frame deter from

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>> the beauty of the glass? >> That's >> Well, it usually it'll fit around the the existing styles of the the existing window. It wouldn't cover the glass. >> Oh, okay. I see what you mean. >> But I'm not saying that's what they have to use, but that's

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>> I would think it would be >> what old structures had back >> for Christina. >> They volunteered for this. >> They did. >> I'm picturing a this something as we all walk around with our I just want to show

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>> I'm picturing that what you would get in return would be something a better quality photo something like this. And there literally would be arrows and specs and it shows where the boundary is and where because it's kind of challenging, right? Because we have all that frame and then

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the glass actually starts right there. >> I would think it would kind of nap in and maybe have a uh >> have a thought that >> like maybe some type of wooden frame in the middle to kind of just cover up the

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existing wooden frame underneath it. Right. So you want obviously we want to snap in and eliminate any overlap. >> Yeah. I mean obviously something that is not that's going to be as least visible

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as possible and what the ultimate project is going to look like. >> Okay. I can go back and with your questions and see where >> to think that they don't know what that they would be doing this

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>> to get the ball rolling. They're going to have to go to something. Here's a copy. >> The vendor would have to come and take measurements of the window. >> Yeah. >> Then give a spec as to what it is they can do. >> Yeah. I just don't think we're like there yet. So that's why we don't have

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that these actual specs because >> we're not that far along in the project. >> So I think the idea of us being in favor of that we don't have >> Okay, great. And then I'll work on getting those questions answered.

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>> Question that the same way that >> storm window decision is almost like the last thing that this is not going to >> get in the way of the punch list. >> No, I think it's all Yeah. see the painting. >> We just want to make sure that the HBC

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does approve this aspect. So >> yeah, I think that you know ultimately a design or a style is going to >> the decision will arrive that's going to support [clears throat] that. >> And the two question the two major questions that we've asked about how it snaps in and will the light refract or

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whatever the technical term correct link. We did pose that to the architect. We told her those were our two major criteria >> for storm windows and she said the next step would be to show us how it would >> yeah I guess to her this was

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good enough but and don't worry Tracy is also on this with me so we'll work on getting this figured out um >> any other uh council updates >> so actually yes last night we just

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approved um funding for a parking and circulation survey around 21 Fair Haven Road and Normandy. Um the total project is capped at 15,000. So, and this will be funded through grant money that was previously awarded for this initiative.

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Um which is very exciting. so we can really understand the impact um this new park will have to the community because that that was something that was um the residents really wanted to make sure that we were going to execute this appropriately. Um and also the survey

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will help with um the Stevens Institute of Technology which I mentioned last uh meeting um figuring out the ongoing feasibility study of the living shoreline. So, it will help them as well. So, we're pretty excited about that.

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>> And I just want to offer that at our last meeting, um, we talked, I think at least talked about the July 4th. And so, I went, how many went to the July 4th ceremony? >> I was at 21. >> I was there. It was for me personally,

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it was very moving to stand in that spot and to see how people move around in there to see the you kind of felt what this would be like in the future as a park that can be used by the community and it was very simple ceremony. So

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kudos to that that part of it. I know obviously the 250th and the Declaration of Independence. So I was looking around and I could visualize that this is an important piece of our chat. So >> yes, very very exciting and actually

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Tracy pioneered that whole event and >> did a great job. >> Yeah, I'm excited to see what the future has to hold for that little hallmark of our town. >> Absolutely. Any other council issues? >> No, >> not today.

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>> How about um historic association? I know leases here. Oh, you're not. Okay. All right. So, we'll sh that for next week. Uh any thoughts, uh comments from the audience? >> No. Um I'll make a motion that we

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approve uh the minutes from June 23rd. >> Want a second? >> Anybody? I'll second that. Yeah. >> Yes. Mr. Helen. >> Yes. >> Mr. Sora. >> Yes. >> Mr.

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>> Yes. >> So, yeah. So, an interesting I'll make a motion we close. >> Okay. Um so an interesting