Tell me when. Good afternoon everyone. This is the July 2024 regular meeting of the Fair Haven Historic Preservation Commission. This is regular meeting of the Fair Haven Historic Preservation Commission. Adequate notice of this meeting has been given pursuant to the provisions of the
open public meetings act. At the time of the board reorganization in January of this year, the board adopted its regular meeting schedule for the year. Notice of the schedule was sent and was published in the Asbury Park Press on January 31st, 2025. And in the Two River Times
on January 23rd, 2025, that notice was also posted on the bulletin board in Burough Hall and was remained continuously posted there as required by the statute. A copy of the notice is and has been available to the public and is on file in the office of the burough clerk. A copy of the notice has also
been sent to members of the public as have requested such information in accordance with the statute. Item no problem having been given. The board secretary is directed to include this statement in the minutes of this meeting. Can we get a roll call?
Mr. Pavo here. Drummond. Mr. Anderson here. Mr. Schuer, Mr. Heler here, here. Mr. Casey here, Mr. Here,
forte here. Yeah. And um I re obviously by regulation, we have to read the open public meetings act for the record every year. And I wanted to I'm going to hold it until the end of the meeting, but I want to have a couple a little bit of a discussion about the whole concept of
it. have, you know, we can kind of educate and have a discussion about what that means and different ways to operate. And if anybody have any questions about what we can and can't do to keep everything appropriate and orderly, we'll talk about it at the end. But uh in terms of moving forward on our
first application, we have a couple of applications relating to the 775 rubber road. Some sign applications. The first of which is Lauren Kushner, LSK Interior Design, 775, lot 49, uh block 49, lot
three. It's a new sign. We have anybody here? Yep. Come on now. Introduce yourself. Dan, partner in MSK Interior Design. asking for signage.
Yeah. And just for context, uh 775 Brittle Road is the uh commercial u formerly residence turned into a commercial structure and recently renovated probably during most of 2024.
Um, did you guys receive the certificates of occupancy yet? Uh, yes. Okay. Are you Have you moved in yet? I mean, okay. As of Okay, congrats. Great. And these are signs. I did actually look at an old image that showed three signs,
one oversized and two probably similar to the size that you're looking to. And you're you're looking to utilize the same post that was there that I think same post. I think they took down a reate sign just recently. convinually
gaming place. Did you say the same post? One post signs. Uh yeah. So it's a singular post that uh had signs on either side and there before I just pulled it up on a Google image which I think is from 2021. It's
when it was captured and it shows an oversized I think it's like a learning center. It was next to the game sign there in the real estate agency, right? The sign was mentioned of the same dimension as the sign previously posted.
And uh I I see that it's going to be a matte finish. Uh it is going to they're going to be um single plane, so they're not going to be etched or anything like that. What is Matt?
Yeah. Um, so usually it's like a synthetic with almost like I mean they do the fact that this is going to be a metal sign as far as Yeah. Yeah. has a similar style to a number of the other uh signs that we've heard applications on. U some of which
come in and they're etched and uh have some type of depth. A lot of them those are very expensive and generally made out of wood and not that durable. So we've had these sort of uh simulated and single plane sign that we've allowed.
Anybody has any thoughts on it? through placing signs and location of the previous sign. Yes. I mean otherwise I mean I don't have a problem. I don't recall when this but certainly it's been the way
it's been suspended and everything. It's an identical design as what was there before. any type of any modifications being made fence post or the hanging device. How does it hang the post? And which side is it going to occupy?
will be closer to the structure on the outside. We have the other one too. Is there any decision as to the order of the sign? I I don't I think that's maybe get it wherever they place it. He made a
request that where you want to sign it closer to the road, closer to the structure. I believe the post right now is facing the road. I can see the signs on either side. off the top of my head. I thought it was so request.
I'm just going to show you. Yeah, it's gone. Sir, did you have did you have a photo you wanted to show? Yeah. Yeah, actually. Yeah, I think the second applicant actually printed it out. I should have put that
Yeah. Yes. Any thought for both sides of the post or anybody on the commission? I I don't think it' be a concern of the problem if the pre-existing approved.
Yeah. I the armature would be nice if it be so uniform on both sides. How does the difference on both sides whatever that is support you want to see what
I call it? It was not Yeah, I I assume that you're just respons the sign he's the landlord. So I mean that's something that will go back to the landlord if he's going to be the one that's going to be installing
it. Um you called it an armature. I agree. I think that I posted I think this should be Yes. Um any more comments from the commission? Comments from the audience?
Anybody in Zoom? Mr. Chair. Yes. Thank you very becoming like a design. Yeah, that's very welcome. Okay. So I I'll make a motion that we approve
the application pursuant to the proofs that have been submitted uh with the condition that uh as they describe the armature or the hanging devices on the signposts be of identical uh be
identical to one another had been there previously and that the affixation be identical to what is presented here by chain with the sign. I'll second that motion. We get a roll. Mr. Ta,
yes. Mr. Anderson, yes. Mr. Heler, yes. Mrs. Pora, yes. Mrs. Casey, yes. Mr. Smith, yes. Yes. Great. All right. So, now I usually wait
until the end. So, tell us a little bit more about the business with techn by appointment only. It's what three type of design fabric is it all types of interiors? Yes, it's suits uh design business. My wife is the primary designer
more or less her second. Okay. Um but renovations in construction, uh single rooms, you name it. Excellent. And were you guys in a different location before? Was a home office for a number of years. Um but business has been excellent
especially in this area and the opportunity uh you know we drive by this this street every day. Um so she saw the sign and uh thought it was a perfect location to expand their business now. Yeah they did a nice job with that building I think as well. So great. Well
welcome. Obviously you had the welcome already and uh good luck with the business. Thank you. Great. Uh the next application, virtually similar uh identical to what we just heard, is um the same address,
775 River Road. Uh the applicant is Bloom Barrett Michael Monroe. Um and again, it's new signage for uh in front of block 49, Lock Creek. Come on up, introduce yourself and um we'll hear you.
my circum and then help them to sign up and give a couple examples they use a 2x closer to color but it's it's a nice
color um we were given a sign that while we're gave us significant arbit. Um so yeah this uh this company is just a uh they do flowers and whisk and also they take out matcha that's a different
location to actually serve cold drinks and coffee they really can't serve cold drinks because if you even surv to become a restaurant it's it's you know the engineering point
is it's ridiculous we try to do it 775 But tremendous keep one of them and so the only business but so the uh
yeah they they just do it juices prepackaged himself take out taking out babies object and um So what you just presented to us now this vertical sign is what you
decided upon as opposed to the other sign or forms that was made confusing. I sent two this most recent and um same dimensions as outlined in
okay and that is it's going to be painted wood. So again is it going to be black or is it going to be etched or what type of sort And same question also with regard to the location. The other sign may be one just based on its size on the inside of the post. Do you think this one's going
to be on the exterior? I'm fairly certain something with the symmetry there. Yeah. there. Is that full occupancy for the building? So the previous picture
said this is your side and you know he's going to redo the way I think light be so that lit up a little bit. I think there's light in there
almost all the gardens. I got about 80% bathroom. So I didn't get building next door. Oh, you just purchased that. We just purchased it. when my clients
purchase it that we're going to bring into the next one and then we make from that hope that the wood retaining wall and redo. Uh what are the thoughts for that? What are the thoughts for that? I'm still looking for historic pictures
of the building. We don't I can't change too much. It's in pretty good shape. Most architecture there. I thought it was covered up and changed most of this other research about colors and I I heard some thoughts of people wanting to make that into a residence
again. Is that is that a thought? No, there's no access to that's a daunting challenge. Um the owners are they're local people. They know everyone. It's going to be family parking which is great. So there's no parking necessarily.
Yeah. So it's I would be going to minister probably neighbors on that side street people and stuff I would be concerned about. I'm not saying it's not justified if there's a house in the corner. Yeah.
If that house is ever bought in connected then I can see if that house comes up for sale. I can see someone like people buying it and then doing property. There's two there's two uh garages in the back that are flowing down. So,
can you share the lots with parking because you have access where you're at? I'm allowed to cross easily 775 because they knew each other. That was that was my client. So, everybody's
nice, you know. Um, so yes, I think that would be a thought down the road, but it also complicates it because it brings both those properties back to the plane and then they're going to have PE light and drainage and hand and then and then there's there's an access
um the driveway is off property it's been that way forever but it said they couldn't they couldn't conceive of you know stone market access,
you know, I got a 10 days just we're doing our recon for when that application comes before the commission. Yeah. So, but yeah, I think what's nice is these guys, they're really good guys. They introduce the deal and they do the right thing. I
get a nice suit and it's been a good one in the building. A lot of parking. It's a very passive use. Yeah. And It's a home that's basically a financial use very low activity. So it may be useful. Right. Getting back to the sign application.
Any thoughts or comments from the comm? Um I just wondered if there any sign on anything that's very clean. Yeah. I don't know if it's Yeah. property.
Oh yeah. My client from Bloomore actually worked hard. So the building proposion is that there zoning on whe
the zoning requirements or not. I I was guessing it was a pre-existing allow but that's not within our jurisdiction. You did that first show that told us this is what you have. Do it like this. Keep it like this and take
this time. So it's Yeah, I just want to represent. Yeah, this is approval for graphics. Any thoughts from the audience? Any comments online?
All right. I'll make a motion that we approve the sign uh as posed in the uh version that was provided to us this evening. Uh do that with also the same provisor that the armature or mounting brackets be identical on both sides and
any sign that be utilized. Um but uh the motion is obviously to approve it in form and uh in the visual that's been presented. I'll second that. Mr. Yes. Mr. Anderson,
yes. Mr. Mr. Heler, yes. Mrs. Gizora, yes. Casey, yes. Mr. Smith, yes. Mrs. Congratulations, guys. Uh so we have Tracy will be coming back
like um old business our first uh thing is bysentennial hall this chapel will tell a lot about that you want but um so
the latest um conversation we have work was that building there's a set date for whatever the exterior work is going to happen. Um but it's under the inside have to close that or at least for an extended kind of time. Um but there's
still the next um thing on his list is they have to meet with senior folks over there and then at some big
chef. I mean, not that this is ideal. I think you probably get more more deliberate tables and stuff, but it seems to to, you know, facilitate at least this type of remember there was a thought that it couldn't ever be done unless they repeat
it that way. Yeah, it seems like it's fairly well suited for that. I I don't know about, you know, the courts. Yeah, it seems pretty good. The visuals even better,
you know, it seems like a good use of it. But I think it's great to have it back to use, you know, rather than not too discussions about
however I word. So, the acoustics are a little bit good here. Yeah, understood. Um, I I agree. The acoustics aren't great. That could probably change with some efforts. I know there's a lot of thought going into what they're going to do with that,
including monitors and so forth. But to your point though, I think it's, you know, when it's kind of interesting the way that all worked out. The whole idea of using the fixed deis, using the blocking off the front doors and all these different ideas that the burrow
had kind of set the wheels in motion to get things behind the the structure and kind of be where we are right now, which is a lot different than we were a year ago. on tape. Yeah. This is a technical I don't have anything to drive with the
concept of just ming speakers because I think would that speakers I think that table. Yeah, I was gonna say any thought on that. It's really in here. It's really hard to hear.
Great. It's it's even in the room. It's difficult sometimes. I can't hear you. And this um device, which is a visual device, just has a really difficult time fastering it. So there's even like if I if I play back
the audio, there's even a close caption feature where you it it will you know dictate what you said and in most of the meeting it gets every fifth word. It just has a really I think the echo
makes it very difficult even for this device to capture the audio the way it does um very accurately down council chambers. So, so I'm sure a lot of commissions are here
that pays the feedback versus so it's cont there's a contract with free and so now we don't have an in-house audio visual person but they they will come in I think they're scheduled to come in at the end of the week and they'll move these audio visual
computer equipment back to Bur Hall so that we can start having meetings. Yeah. When is that? It will be for next month. Yeah. For August for sure. But it's I think this might even be the last meeting in alo the solution is not that the solution for for these the
commission and the you know zone board council will be to be back in that room. That space also by the way is completely so it looks it looks nice. open there's so much open space here
and well this will be used for other function definitely just won't be a dedicated use for all the kids they'll have like the natural area committee will meet in here
is an experiment that has not worked out here And my question is and therefore my question is does that have to is there a solution
for this? Yeah. Paul, come on up. We were just talking about uh Boston County Hall Chapel. Any updates from the council perspective? Um yes, I have several updates.
Following our last meeting, Um so I will the um the memo the that the commission offers a shield current transfer to Chris and the mayor we are
all aware to do with the pink color and or federation commission. So the next um council meeting I'll be able to sort of the rest of the council understands the role of the agency and um I think most importantly with this commission
um cares about in addition to being quoted is the um the role of a paint specialist by Mr. color and fade and really everyone agreed. And um the bid package
that will get put together by Laura Perin, the architect at the council and put together effects on the main body of work here will include sessions. So, um, I've adored that that's that's a typical
practice. Once you're gone to preservation, uh, work and that Laura has a specialist she works with. I don't know who the professionals are and their information.
Yeah, it would be nice to find out who those people are, what at least the protocol would be. um you know how they've done it in the past with any uh uh preserved structures you know what they've done to terms the fedig
can I ask you to you want to know what paint specialist they typically use what they're processing yeah just generally I don't think it's you know that would be something not formally just an informal request just to see what the process
well it could be educational and we've talked about It's important to the commission to tell them. See any uh I know you had a couple of leads that you were following up on. Anything happened with any of that? No.
I wasn't following to to go in charge of I could do that but they have you have contract. Yeah. We have would probably go to their stable. You know, we've kind of be operating outside that lane. um if you
if you want to share it but I would say at this point let's defer to them in their scope and assign this work and to see what they bring us if for some reason the commission should not be specialist that gets stuff out actually does
see that yeah I assume it's sort of best practices we can find out yeah and I'm assuming just based on what they've indicated that they've done a significant amount of historic restoration work yes that to solidify that compliment.
Um, on the transom, I did do a little field trip over to the community center actually and I said the commission and the historic association put him thought into this and instead of the right place
and we just by because he said it's in his mind it's pretty obvious there's no place to put it. Come on. And you throw yourself to put it in there. It's mostly glass. The two side walls, which really would be the most
best place for eating, is where you need to a monitors and you know for presentation purposes, meetings and stuff like that. And um B, it's not even a place. Like there's a gap when you
come in the front door. There's a gap overhead. where the you know it's a pitch roof and then there's a small it would basically be by the distance between the front door and that wall that is only a few feet so no one would
really be able to see it. Um it seemed the way the conversation went I said you know the narrative about the school is really a key piece of this story the reason the transom is
important to the historic association and to the HPC is because it's piece of from that landmark and maybe these two things go together which seems appropriate kind Right. Um, but that's
really kind of where we left the conversation because there's still a lot more work to be done to kind of find a place to put it, figure out how to display it appropriately. Um, and if anyone has any suggestions, I'll
run them down for. But at some point, what we will need to find the right place for. We also looked in here. It feels like moving it from its resting place doesn't seem right. Um, which is again not my decision, but I know that
we've examined the idea of putting it elsewhere and continue to come back to the community center. So, um, I I don't have anything other than that, but still need
I suggest that they on your agenda. It's one of those things. Yeah. And don't want to forget about it. Exactly. Don't forget about um I don't have a schedule on the next phase of work. Wait, they're on transfer
now. Um you want to go to I don't have anything you want to cap. Did you want me to touch on that? Only if you had something to report that and then have the 21 fair share here or anything. Um the I actually have an
email uh to find out when we're going to award the work. So to me the work refers to business is this site stabilization work for people who live in the neighborhood. extremely important. They want to know you're going to be down
there in the summertime doing hazardous material or what are we then they there we haven't even the work yet. So there's still some time between job getting awarded and then the crew
need to mobilize notify everybody notice say because the fastest um and the applicant got in on time to sell application and where it gets very competitive I haven't found a reason to believe we should pile before the end of the
year. Oh excellent. Yeah. Good. Um, and the I agree the transm is just sort of an exhibit for a story what you were saying. Uh, and then we
had the the narrative of the in the fair in which I think was supposed to be by a certain county but I I remember hearing that there was to be some kind of a monument on on this site. Was that a
trans? Is there are you aware of anything on site right now that could be on site other than the trans? Yes, the um council particularly some sort of marker I've follow because I
don't know what it is yet and we should call out what the site was in in plain terms. Um there Chris has engaged a professional historian from his preservation county preservation
commission. So I think we're in good hands. We're going to get some I mean to your credit you were the one who identified some I think get attacked down um and verified. So, we've got a historian working on the narrative piece
to be there, but um it's probably going to be simple because that was rather lengthy. You know, I I don't get to make this decision, but I'm sure it'll get put in front of all of us at one point or another. Um I this has come up at the historic
association releasing the top because we we've committed to doing a website and an archive. Um which is going to help because there are lots of great stories and they can't always plaque or all in um nor should they.
That's right. We want to tell the story. So the historic association is committed to hopefully you know, this year, first half of next year, get that website and the archive started. Um, and that's going to be a great place for all of
many stories people have, you know, Susie, the suitcase, the top extension I would make that live. So people don't know to go to that site
or they might not even inclin to go. It's like people who visit here which is part of the history or having that there be some way that there would be somebody who present the
history beyond them having a group meeting do something give a 10 minutes overview of what where you're really standing. So that's that's the thing I've been to see.
Um so about two years ago the council authorized a grant application which I was having involved in. Um, and we were awarded um about $38,000 to retain clamps to help us engage the community
and have conversation about how best to do exactly what we described, whether it's, you know, custom cases and cabinets or iPads and self-guided tours or do customs or all the other. But it's
it's the next level programming a space like this and bringing things life um which we will then um once that's articulated for the community we will then apply for that next level of funding through the national for the
through the state historic trust to fund the execution a combination of all those things they'll have to say for anything else um just the um the black heritage trail application this still in the works
having you know it's the last the last yard seems to be the longest yard but um hopefully we get that completed soon and that would be um assignment here as hall but ideally
the black school is a great place too we haven't council adopted resolution support that I haven't hired anybody to do Yeah, but the trail is all throughout New Jersey. They award these signs to worthy
landmarks. Um I've discussed that landmark with state historic council and they like it. So the town deciding to do it council starting it and retaining someone to prepare the application.
Right now it's just an ID. Okay, good. Any thoughts, comments? you started the trans transition into historic association. So, let's go there. Maybe we'll have a report on.
Um, so first thing is the garden tickets finally went live and we have purchased a domain name for our future website. Oh, excellent. Yeah. Um, so those are two of the
biggest um updates. So, we're working on building that figuring out the date of the garden party is Saturday, September 6. Is there any kind of push notifications going on? Yeah, you'll get a um last year. You'll
get a constant contact invitation which is going to be one of our you know 250 people events that we're really excited about. And is it going to be kind of themed that way?
Sort of a little bit. Yeah. Not the whole thing, but um Check out whatever that is incorporated. Small. Yeah. So on that note, uh we had meetings for
the 250th anniversary committee and one of the things that was kind of brought up was the idea as far as the century box concerned. Did you guys I know we just kind of briefly touched on it and you mentioned it. You guys have any discussion about that? We did on Thursday
and I have a um just like a draft of what that process kind of look like application. It's something I put on the website and what exceptions would reject you. Um I actually probably have a copy of an
application. Do you think so? Yeah, it um I have it in a foldage that uh is from when the people who own my house before I had it and it actually has all kinds of different stuff that they didn't know. So I can share it like nails from the
house to show like the age and stuff. So it's not just like a document, but that might give you some idea. Yeah, maybe that's something that might you think is reasonable to maybe roll something like that out during 2026. Yeah. Yeah. if you can share that.
Yeah. And I guess since we're talking about historic association stuff, we have uh Sheila brought to our attention a plate that was given to her. Oh, you can just pass it down. Okay. You can give me description. Yeah. Right. It's a plate
that apparently was uh in Brooks von Arcs's office uh that showed um is it a Method? It's a Beth Methodist church. Is that right? Methodist church. And we were looking at the structure. Kind of an impressive cool colonial looking structure. I'm thinking of the
Smart Start Preschool. Obviously, they got rid of the the uh Yeah. You looked at the structure, you could tell the rear of the structure obviously was some type of church. Yeah. Uh but obviously all the ornamentation
and the turret and all that is done. And Susan, who knows probably more than any of us here about a town, was kind of well knew it right away. It was my I guess at it and you got it right away. Okay. When church look at it.
Well, the pressure is here. Don't know when the plate was made sometime after 1882 probably was a Masonic. Masonic was his church. I think it was purchased by the Masonic lodge in like the 30s or something like
that. And I knew before that it was the back of the plate of anything. Yeah. Oh yeah. What does it say? Preston Hopkins. This is I guess the commemorative uh Apple Virginia
protective. That's the company. Yeah. It's this no year though. Smith Taylor. No, no, it's a nice checkp for stuff like this. Uh, well, it's it actually
Yeah, we looked at it before. If you want to see it again, Susan, not a problem. Oh, yeah. Smith. Let's just see. I'm going to Google. Getting a chat. You can see. Yeah, I'm doing a chat. I'm all in on the AI now.
See, there's room in the agenda for some casual conversation once the historic association puts out the community announcement. Give me this before I break it. you know that now there's an entity to score or
at least to scan and you know download things to people or we don't have a place to store things yet but um who knows what will show up really fun yeah and less than the press think if we
do any of our research but chat we're getting very yeah right I mean right now it's basically just um regurgitating what the the information from the plate itself
but I gave it a please tell me more um directive. So what's happened with that basement and it is good to search once all down
findings. So people are hungry to they don't know where to do this. So it's a place to start but certainly once there's a place where someone can just send a picture
the red thing very Cool. While we wait for that, um, anything else from the association or Okay. All right. Um, quickly, I know that everybody's taking a look.
Yeah, sure. Um, so Steve, remember when you talked a while? I was gonna I the morning after the last meeting I was at, I called and I kept going right to voicemail, but like a generic one. I think I had the wrong I
don't know. So, I was gonna I was going to tap you in anyway, Katie. So, please, good, good. Oh, good. Everything. Wow. story after story after story. And so I said, "Can we meet with you
stories?" And don't know how old But anyway, long story short, um I ran it to him in the afternoon today and
there other linkage goes back and so I said two days said, "What about next week?" So, I just found something up to see what this
story is. So, if anybody would like to um Yeah, if I'm away next week, but don't don't let that stop you. So, please go ahead and um and then bring it in. Yes.
Yeah. So yeah, not 10 people there, but one or 200 people there just Sure. Sure. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Great. Awesome. That's
that's very good. That's how nuggets of things that offers that may inform the 21 that would be right. So maybe that and or you'll just say anything about the tax anything new
that we don't already know. Did not we'll wait. All right. Uh, I'll make a motion that we approve the minutes from, uh, June. Mr. Mr. Anderson,
yes. Mr. Oh, no. A minute. Yes. Okay. So, um, one of the other things I just mentioned in the beginning, I read that open public meetings act sort of sunshine law uh, preamble for every
meeting. um everybody hears it probably a little bit of white noise but I wanted to just discuss it a little bit uh because it is an important concept and it's something that um even though sometimes we're a little informal the way we handle the uh meetings and so forth and obviously we have business
people and our neighbors and people that we know um we do have a function here and we have to adhere according to the law uh the certain statutes that regulate the way in which we operate and uh the sort of penalty uh if in fact someone would were would
to challenge something that we did uh and there was an allegation that we didn't adhere to the open public meetings act some of our findings or recommendations would just be nullified and there could be a challenge technically to the even even the ability of uh this group to function. So, you
know, just a couple of things. Uh I'm not I'm going to not get into the statutory or administrative sections but basically when we talk about the open public meetings act it's the concept of sort of as it sort of indicates is that this is an open public meeting meaning
this board we function as a public board and uh or commission and our works and our decisions and our uh discussions that lead to our decisions are open to the public and there has been a push in the last 30 years. Um won't get into the
history of that but that uh it to be open to the public so that there can be a robust debate that the public can discuss these things with the commission question the commission um that's why we decide we ask questions of the town of
pe of people in the audience of people uh on zoom uh so there could be a robust debate and that the decisions that this commission make like any other um be the will of the people so to speak. So just a couple of concepts. Um so uh the open
public meetings act also known as the sunshine law. Anybody thought that that's pretty sounding law and something different. It is not. It's the open public meetings act um by the state of New Jersey. not according necessarily to the statute, but the way they describe it in their literature is is that it's
designed to ensure that the decisionmaking government bodies in the state conduct their business in public except under specific circumstances where exclusion of the public is needed to protect the privacy of individuals, the safety of public or the
effectiveness of in government such as negotiations or investigations. So one of the things for example I even noticed um you know was either a zoning or planning board meeting. It was a private session and that had to do with some discussions between the planning board or the zoning board and some potential
and the board attorney with some litigation that had been um uh pending or contemplated. So that may have been confidential discussions that wasn't something that would be open to the public. Um I think it's also important because the state sort of defines a
meeting. It's not necessarily a formal grouping like we have uh the fourth Tuesday of every month but any anything more than two people or um it says that um a public body is basically defined as a group of two or more persons who are
empowered as a voting body or public uh to perform a public governmental function. So two people together even though they're not meeting as a board but make a decision and then perhaps vote as a block that could sway something that we do as a commission constitutes uh an action of the
commission. So it's important to know that that technically was a violation if we talk or email or talk to each other about different decisions and things of that nature not in public because it prevents the public from being uh aware of that type of discourse and also
prevents the public uh from participating in as well. There also is a uh sort of a suggestion that an advisory c uh commission event but the way in which this commission is operating in the nature of our recommendations brings it within the
ambus of the open public meetings act. Um and that's kind of it. I think that you know it mostly applies to us when we have certain things that happen in between meetings and I know that in the past we've been uh trying to accommodate certain homeowners or certain uh
business owners. We entertain the idea of maybe having uh special meetings uh or continuations of meetings and you know in strict adherence to the open public meetings act. We do have to be careful about that because as much as the intent is proper to try to help
people, um we don't want to do something that uh either by way of communication that's not on the agenda or communication that doesn't involve the public is construed with decision or sort of uh making decisions behind the scene that doesn't involve uh the
public. Um I don't know if you know if any of this or all this makes sense if anybody not that I'm an expert on it but if anybody has any questions or comments on the open public meetings act I know um Tracy you're here you have you could give maybe weigh in from a
council perspective because you you're under much more scrutiny obviously the decision- making is much more significant at that juncture but maybe you can share from a practical standpoint what your thoughts everything you said is true I would say
If um if you recall when you're when you're elected you swear an oath and when you're appointed you swear an oath and if you remember the oath is where it's really kind of noble you to uphold the constitution of the state of New
Jersey obviously state of New Jersey and the local laws and one of those laws is the public act or sign um and the heart of that piece of legislation is what is at the heart of democratic
government and that is the public's right to know and the reason we have public forums is because this is the way and that we advertise those things and we advertise the agendas is the way we honor well first of all the laws it's
articulated statute this is administrative our local codes but um it guards the procedure that allows those points of engagement for the public. And
so by following those laws, we are in fact democratic form of government and engage with our citizens. So that those are bowing for the decisions that you guys make. You are citizens and anyone
who chooses to show up here and weigh in. Susan Brian, um those are very important decisions. um engagement. So I think that's the beauty of it. Um every day
on the fourth Tuesday of every month, you stop what you're doing and you all come to this building and you purposefully with good intent engage in this process to serve the
community for the greater good. That's a beautiful thing. So, um I'm grateful for all of you and at any rate, maybe that's some the hearts or the spirit of the law. Um that's how that's how we live it. With council and your tenure on council,
have there ever been any challenges or issues or have any people sort of raised that that's a violation of the act? You know, again, take any specifics, but has that come up at all? No. Well, we have attorneys. There's only three categories that we can go into what's called an executive session
where the public is excluded and that's for legal matters or potential litigation um personnel matters for their privacy. Yeah. And um if there are other sort of you know typically it might fall into
acquisition matters of uh it's it's not a broad category. I'm just not being very specific but right there's enumerated things that there there a bunch of them but those kind of things that I think the other wonderful thing that
um is worth saying is no individual has any power authority from the time you gave in and g that body whether it's the council commission or planning board uh
expresses one position agenda through the majority vote and so government is heard when I think the voice of government is heard in ordinances and resolutions or in your case of action um
and that's true for all pieces of government because the council this is a piece of government formed by government made possible by a state enabling legislation same things were required anymore. But these are all
pieces of government that work together. But we're all held by the we're all required to follow the same rules. We take the same out for the same purpose. So um coming with the threshold between um public meeting where we're taking an
action that's going to be an impact on people versus as members of the commission you have an idea where you're dealing with say whoever commission say should we bring this forward and have a have a public
discussion about it or a member of council meets with an individual citizen to talk about a problem and they don't make commitments or they always say we have to go back against people but um I mean even since I've been on this commission I've talked to people about
should should I do this should we do this get something on the agenda I don't think it's meant to stop thinking and communication outside the condition yeah any point that's a good point. So, um, and and you would think that,
especially with counseling, you have so many moving parts and so many different things and you want to foster, you want to get things done and sometimes that you can't wait till next month or you can't have a formal meeting and there's just not enough time to get it done. So, paid with good intentions there on
occasion could be a violation of the act. to your point precisely there is a provision and it with regard to the level of interaction or what's discussed or even it's just an informal conversation and and the statute specifically says or so I'm paraphrasing
but uh it is not necessary that a meeting result in some action mere discussion of public matters is enough to make it a public meeting and what that's referring to in the case commission
is if four or more commissioners are speaking amongst themselves about an item on the agenda. It constitutes a meeting and that meeting hasn't been advertised or noticed. See, so you have inadvertently
nobody here, but um inadvertently created the black box behind the doors. I'm speaking about the pre ideas and things that eventually may not
get on agenda this chapel is this really the perview of the commission people talk about it outside the commission come to the commission yeah well I think the answer to something like that it doesn't you know we have these sort of standing agenda we
talk about if it fits within there I or usually usually I remember sometimes I don't. Are there any thoughts or comments? Bringing up those kind of things during the formal meeting and we can figure out how to respond to it or whether or not we need to make it an agenda item. Um or if it's something
that's outside what we'll discuss, call Sheila and tell her to make it an agenda item. I might be picking up the wrong thing, but it sounds like you're talking about engaging with the public interest. Well, it could be with the public.
Yes, you're the only member at that point. However, if you took Jay and Elise and Kate and you said, "Come over to my house and we're all going to get together. There'll be folks who care about this stuff." you know, as as as good as your
intentions are, that's a violation of the law because I think it's only two. You can have up to three, but uh if you have more than that, then it's violation
because it constitutes the majority of the body, right? and and the majority of the body in your case is four and I hope to hear from that because I wasn't sure. Yeah. I mean the regulation seems to indicate too that yeah it's so restrictive. Yeah. I think and the main thing is we
just got look I think you you share an excellent meeting so I know that if two people are having a conversation it technically doesn't violate the law as it has been determined by our appointment. So I called a check on the number to be sure that's the only thing
it was sure about. Um but yeah definitely about that two categories that vulnerable in a small town to violate you're right and
all here as well I know but the glosser So sending an email out and there's more thanational but any distributed to the innocent sharing of information
for something that public they allow. And then the second thing is even as an individual as well can't represent boy that sign that looks great.
I'm looking forward to seeing next month. Even that saying that works great is mere represent. But yeah, I think the email is probably May I weigh in on this part? Absolutely. I think in the u uh given
that you know sort of we're finding the the correctness I would suggest that we do it as strictly as the law calls for at this time and then if you find out that there's something you need to do
that requires email and engagement across the commission um I'll run that to the ground for you and find out if there's a way for you to do it but the current interpretation of the all the guidance clerk is um if there's a one point push on the direction of the
chairman and the secretary president has to circulate information nobody needs to respond to that in fact you shouldn't um but that way the secretary does her job the chairman has the technical administrative support
he needs to keep you um informed whatever that email might be but I would uh in in the secretaries of the law it's not email and then if something does come up
and you need a way it's something by email I'll work with Sheila and we'll get we'll get Alison we'll figure out if if there is I'm not even sure there'll be a I mean usually u for the planning board and designing board there's like
some a note at the bottom of the that say do not violate um so as to violate violating sense. So I can put that same you know version at the bottom of yeah of these emails just
as a reminder that if you send like for example if I send something that's you know for your reference for your information like a number of action that it really is just for your meeting reference not to respond back and stuff.
So, um, so a hypothetical a hypothetical um, and and this happens from time to time. Um, hasn't happened recently. We haven't had any significant applications that have been pending. You can put your arm down. I got you when when I'm done with this. Um, so, uh,
somebody says we're going to make a vision in a plan or somebody makes a representation of an application, but we don't have the specifics in front of us. um and they present it and we just want to make sure that it's what they say is what they do. Uh you know, I I guess
technically a reading of the uh Sunshine Act or the Open Public Meetings Act would require we go to the next meeting before we take any action even if it's just submitting uh a plan to just say, "Yeah, that's what they said that they were going to do and we then approve the
application." So, in essence, it delays the whole process a little bit, but technically that would be calling for a violation. Well, it's a good example actually. Um, and I know with the planning board and landing school all students, they they their resolution is
because they adopt resolutions, but they're often conditional subject to correct and you would um detail what those conditions are. the applicant submits to the secretary which of course you would see it's it does not meet that what was
what was specified from the commission then they would have to and and they they should know that but because this is what was approved but that's that would be the procedural right mechanism I think you could use okay and I think it makes sense our project
because in the past there's been some representations of of things and then didn't always get built to what they said that there's you know actually come back at least more accountability it's a little bit more
understood it's a bit of a burden to come back I think makes a lot of sense let me just get to see got so actually the best course of action
She was sending something out to all of you is that she should blind everybody and then you could start some private. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of what the take my takeway was
my very first meeting. I know you and J and presented something said, "Oh, we went across the reconnaissance. We did some research and
present in the results." And I remember thinking, "Oh, are we allowed to do that?" And I think it's it's just back to part of how you operate because your expertise goes do research and then you present it at
the next meeting to anybody else learns that that's okay like to do our own research then send it back. Yeah, absolutely. I mean you guys were completely silent in that discussion say one word to well I mean according to commissioners
to visit the site of any so just because you know you have to have these tremendous resources it doesn't doesn't mean you know that's all I mean certainly the intent of this statute regulation is not to you know
stifle what we do to your point exactly So yeah, that's perfect. That's great. Between the meetings, we can do whatever they need to be able to then bring our sites to the meeting.
And of course, we advocate for people if they have the time to go look at the subject. Yeah. Yeah. And I any other thoughts on this? Hopefully it was kind of helpful. Susan, you got you
you know you're very uh active from a a citizen standpoint. Um you know, hey, that's you know the name of the game and we welcome it. Absolutely. If you weren't here, you know how many neon signs it would be in
I did a deep investigation on things you guys may know about and I would all the way to 1971 and they're in minutes by planning board council and two voices are peppered
throughout the minutes from And those voices on this woman here and that's obliter. So then we'll just move on. Lastly, we
have one other item that's not an agenda item. I want to bring it up because, you know, it's not uh it was an email that we received regarding 27 Normandy, the Hagerty application, if you remember that at the house that um we brought it was brought to our attention that they
were changing the windows and we um had a discussion as to the type of divided light and mountains that were in the window. Um, so, uh, there is apparently an open, um, an open, uh,
what do we have? It was it was an email that Sheila received from, uh, Sabine Connor from Rumson about an open building permit that was there and they want to close the building permit out, and they wanted to know what what was going on from our perspective. So, um, I
did take a look at the property. Uh, it doesn't look like there's been any change in the windows. There's not the type of mins that we have talked about. I did email the uh Miss Hagerty. I haven't heard back from her yet. I'm going to put it on as an agenda item for
next month, but because this is something that just goes back a day or so. So, I want to give her the benefit of the doubt. Um, and then we'll have to address and we'll have to address the B. We'll have to address what if any options are available and uh what's going on. It did look like there was still some construction going on. There
was a Home Depot van there. Um, you know, I think it's been sort of slowing down a little bit, but it did look like there was some activity there. So, it is what it is at this point, you know, clearly, but we'll address it. I I want I said I was going to bring it up because I mentioned that I was going to
uh make sure that uh before this meeting that a site inspection takes place and we'll have a plan item next month. And that's it. Uh motion to close. I'll second.