##VIDEO ID:-HIoLF9h6qY## notice of this meeting has been given pursuant to the provisions of the open public meetings act at the time of the board reorganization in January of this past year the board adopted its regular meeting schedule for the year notice of the schedule was sent to and published in the Asbury Park Press on January 6 2024 and the two River times on February 1st 2024 as well as supplemented by published notice of July 11 2024 to advise of the hybrid format that notice was also posted on the bulletin board in burough Hall and is remain continuously posted there as required by the statute the copy of the notice is and has been available to the public and is on file in the office of the burrow clerk a copy of the notice has also been sent to such members of the public as have requested such information in accordance with the statute adequate notice having been given the board secretary has directed to include the statement in the minutes of the meeting uh so uh sh shall we take a roll uh mron Mrs Bush Mrs here Mr here here here Anderson here here okay uh allegiance to the flag United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all okay so why don't why don't we just get to the uh the administrative item first so that we can uh we have no old business or new business so we'll move right into the approval of the July 16th uh minutes which were distributed uh via email prior to the meeting um does anyone have any comments on those uh on those minutes motion to approve second Mrs yes I wasn't here I know can I Mr pal yes Mr yes yesy yes yes okay so um we invited uh so so as you know uh the last two meetings we've been talking about uh the reexamination of the master plan which is due in August 2026 and uh we we've worked together as a board to come up with a you know very high level timeline um but through those discussions um we we we wound up with a number of questions that I think uh we need need sort of professional help so we've invited uh Mike Sullivan our our board planner uh to attend tonight to to help us get organized or at least to start to get organized uh with regards to the master plan reexamination what it entails um you know are we are we amending just certain elements are we going to do a full rewrite all of these things were were discussed over the last two meetings we didn't seem to really get anywhere of substance um and and so uh I think it's important that we have the professionals uh involved uh in uh in this meeting to help us get organized I think what and and we like to hear from all of you as well before we get started I think what we'd like to have probably over the next two meetings is a is a good timeline um obviously resolution on on on what we're going to do for the reexamination and then a timeline to to address that so that we can start um creating the different committees for each element and making sure that we uh we have obviously enough public Outreach and then also involve the other other you know the other committees um in the town that that probably need to be involved so um with that I'll just open it up to to anybody on the board uh to add to what I just said before we get started Doug anything uh no okay okay uh so I'll turn it turn it over to Mike well thanks for inviting me it's good to see you again I don't that here for the zoning board or was that for the planning board I once this year I've been here a lot this year been a lot yeah there hasn't been a lot on the agenda really the last year me so I I do want I did have a a conversation with Fred we talked about um generally what was going on and that you're uh you do want to comply with the statute and actually do a reexamination report prior to the deadline 2026 our firm did your last reexamination in 2016 that reexamination I don't know if everybody's refreshed their memory with of it it was pretty basic um it was not something that it wasn't as robust let's say as many of them are and it wasn't master plan it doesn't stand for the proposition that you have a master plan anything that was in there that has not been Incorporated in your master plan is still just a proposal is not a policy um and that's the difference between a master plan and a reexamination re-examination report and the statute tells you all the steps you have to do and looking back and identifying circumstances have be changed um how you think policies policies should change uh recommendations for master plan amendments recommendations for zoning amendments it's really what it is but it's really just a plan for your master plan and result not it doesn't constitute those things um so I think one of the early decisions I think you need to make is do you need this to be also a Master Plan update to either the land use plan which is really your zoning guide um or another El C maybe circulation is real important or um you know with respect to housing uh housing plans uh that's a big uh thing now uh the state just dropped a new law um in March and towns are required to comply with the the statute in terms of accounting for any trust fund spending and trust fund um affordable housing trust fund income uh and also any units that uh were produced uh during the last rounds and also going forward developing a fourth round housing point so that's that's and that's on a tight time frame that's by June June June 30th of 2025 right so we when we spoke on the phone I think there were two things so so that was you know I guess the the June 20125 deadline right what exactly is required and and I I is a new housing plan and fair a plan so we have to we have to effectively rewrite the housing fan element of the master plan it's really not well it's it's up it's a it's a new one but it's moving from your third round plan which is not that old that's the overlay that that was the rich the overlays that that was it included the overlays as part of your compliance mechanisms right so that was included in that so um so yeah you're going to get new numbers um from the DCA the DCA is establishing uh because it's still not there's still no COA COA went away and they haven't come back uh for the third round the courts took over enforcement and um for all the towns who cared to participate and try to protect their immunity which you did um the DCA is now going to play a role of an adjudicator or they call it the program which is going to be uh the storehouse of all knowledge of all Municipal plans and documents and determining whether or not you're complying or not um they are also charged in October with developing numbers you know an allocation for every town and state and uh I have very little faith and I I've said this on the record in several places that they're going to meet that deadline um State doesn't usually do that but that's not going to absolve any talents of having to meet the deadlines uh my firm uh for all of our housing clients we're actually developing a model um and by September we think the model will be ready to actually model of what we think DCA is going to do um and the reason we're doing that for our clients is to get a head start on planning and also to have a basis whereby we may challenge the tals want to challenge we following stat the laws to do that and um we'll see where that goes um so that's that's the housing piece but right so so you one question question just a quick question so I give the board of Comm reference because your firm was also instrumental in helping us do our updates to the affordable housing we had the ordinances that high R are you familiar with the work that they ass with yes okay how much of a lift will it be to bring us up to date from say the higher and Ru materials to I mean you've identified some things how much of a lift for the board to update the master plan for the next room for the housing housing Planet element fair share plan it's it's it's not that much of list the laws change so much that there's different mechanisms there different bonus structures um there are different ways to comply so it's a it's a new set of or a modified set of compliance mechanisms so it's it's just taking all we do is an accounting of where you got to based on the last round and see what what you've done and then we go from there based on the new numbers can we other than numbers is there anything you're a vacant land town right so so you've got a vacant land adjustment for vacant land adjusted town uh who's not I I we're we don't have any we we your vacant land adjustment town okay which means that when you got your number you said to uh the Council of the courts you don't have enough vacant land presumptive densities in order to that what made us do the overl so so you do the overl right and so some of and that's and what you're addressing with that is called unmet need you don't have the a vacant available developable land to do it so that's called unmet need so you're taking care of that in the world of available land you don't have much you're still going to be a vacant land town but what the new law does is it makes you look harder at redevelop areas they look very fair share housing center was doing this in the last round they making us look at if you saw a develop site and it looked kind of marginal because it was 50s and the industry was going away they'd say that's a redevelop you have to Zone that for housing so it's it's it's a little bit different this time without getting the details in terms of the mechanisms but you're vacant lanon so your unmet need from the last round is going to go into this round and the new um whatever the perspective need is is going to go on top of that to the extent that there is is so rich has H GRL been in touch with you at all on this has have they you know theyve contacted anybody in Burl Hall on this Chris anybody um can I can I say one thing we we've been working with Mike Edwards too that's how it is and and do you know Mike Edwards yes I work with him in other place so so he has been keeping us um informed as to what the requirements are as as of March I think when the first change they send their Letters Out y y so and he hon GRL is still our fair share housing agents right right so there are planners with so we have two plan the board our planning board has two planners we have CCH and we have Hing rules for all housing element matters so I would I I mean we would I think we need to address with hire and GRL like what the timeline is we we can't have something dropped on us a month or two months before office has develop a town a Time line that Chris yor has that that he can provide us with but um I think we all have to work together in concert because we can't have everybody working independently on the [Music] same proposal as it affects our absolutely no no I was just giving you because it came up and when I spoke with Fred I said you know as far as I know I wasn't a CO foral housing plan so the yeah I brought up a resolution from January that the governing body adopt past they they changed professionals as it relates to affordable housing planner the U pable housing planner is uh tendra we would Le from Kyle M mcis we we had a zoom call with Mike's firm and she was on that and kind of Kickstart on where things were moving so but then he canceled the second one we've never right we've never met again since then so I I'm not really sure where we are in the process but Chris should know that yeah but I just I mean I this is are I mean it's a planning Board responsibility is it not yes it's a it's a combination it's a governing B the planning board is the housing plan element of the master plan because that's under the master plan the fair share plan goes with that but it's got to be endorsed by the government have toing on the Gover body the Govern the government the governing body so council is driving I'm just worried that we got something we have to do and and and you know sort of out of the on it a little bit my understanding is the planning board makes all the the does all the proposals makes the plans and then the governing body votes up so we do the work and then present our findings to them and they vote on it so then we're driving it not we are definitely driving in most and and every in most towns there's a it's a there's an affordable housing committee set up and we have one right you got it and it's it's Mike Edwards it's your planner it's the planning board somebody from the planning board and somebody from the governing body usually in that world and and and that's who really tries to solve the issues and present them to the PO and government but it's it's really you're together on this it's it's it's more I think the housing plan element fair share plan have a much closer uh linkage between the planning board and the governing body than typical Master plans yeah I it just seems to me like we're running around in circles we need to start somewhere you know what do we do first well I mean they don't have to I mean the re-exam is separate from the from housing yes so if you're talking about the housing plan do whatever like does right but it would seem to me that the the the housing plan the housing plan element is is going to be is going to be due like you said in June of 2025 so it seem to me then for purposes of the re-examination we would pretty much be done unless there's any other update to the law right because we would have done like the reexamination report that's due in 2026 would just reference the work we did it would only be a year old at that that point or we have to do I mean we wouldn't have to do anything else I would think the housing looking for the housing be looking back at the housing plan element and saying we updated our housing plan element pursuant to the new Statute in 2025 and you know the re re-examination plan says implemented that's so focusing on housing plan at home other than the affordable housing and other things that have to bring us up with the current Wom anything significant that the board has to concern itself with because I think that's what Fred's saying once that's done are is there really anything else in that element that the planing will concern itself with well you know it the original purpose of a housing plan elementes to really look into your the needs of a town and it's morphed into something which is just an edict from the state and here's what you got to do so most housing plan elements only focus on how do we solve the affordable housing problem they don't FOC on how should housing be Tred I'm assuming that's so unless our de demographics have significantly changed I don't know I don't know that they have I don't I don't know that the demog I'll say this I don't know even though we do all the demographics at housing 21 whether you don't even look at those you just do them because that's what's required in a housing plan element what you do is look at the numbers that you're required and you say okay how do we get X number of units built either through inclusionary or 100% jobs or overlays so it's it's it's not as a it's not as um so not as holistic as it we would have concerned ourselves that much if there was a significant increase in population or significant change from say young families to seniors or something like that yeah I yeah you could it might it might have some bearing if there was a big change but you know that doesn't happen and there could be no right our housing plan could be what our housing plan is we already have the overlays well you're going to need more overlays yeah so we're have to put more overlays that we already have we' with more we' tased with more unit which is what the state's trying to do unit thr the numbers have changed right but I mean I don't know I last time I don't know where you getting more overlay is you GNA overlay in neighborhoods now well so over completely and then we had the church property over Fair Fields a spot and then I don't know where else you're going to put there's nothing else here doesn't exists I think I think what that's my point I think saying like you still have your unmet need you'd have to recognize you have then your next round of okay here's what we've decided is on top of that unet need and do you have a realistic plan to address them yours is a very practical response I don't know how we do it but we might have to work with um Mike Edwards and in coordination with our the professors to say here is something reasonable that if challenge that we haven't met one needs that we have something that I mean the the snow development was going to meet some needs but it never happened true application came from B us and application went away and never came back and they they received all of their permits they yeah they were good to go right so that that's another property that would help us meet some of these requirements it's not there so I mean I guess that's there in the future they build it that's a piece of property that they can do it with but I think I think that in this in this in the current world what you may do is if you if there are areas you've already done overlays and you think that and they haven't developed are there things to enhance them to make them if you really want to develop right if you have I always encourage towns if you can make some lemonade app right what what do you want to have happen you know if you have an area that really could use some refreshing I mean not that you would have that here um but you do have places like that um like the business districts if you could incentivize Redevelopment there and the current overlays aren't working well maybe you need more density um people don't do things for free they get paid to do it and that's what developers do so if you can find a way to leverage that and say well we're solve this issue but we're also going to incentivize Redevelopment in a way that's really positive it's worth taking another look at some of the overlays you've already created in these commercial districts or mixed juuse District districts to see because if you do create these things and you can actually um spawn Redevelopment and you can get some really good requirements in there you could have some dramatic and positive change let's say so if there were opportunities that's what I would be coaching you to to look or where where are these opportunities where you can actually make something happen through this because if there's money to be made there'll be a developer trying to make the money and you know with with the business districts you know you've got whole series of different ownership issues right there's always connect parking lots and they connect streets and and they have these kind of things so there's other issues there that are working against Redevelopment of these sites and so looking at how you know and this is a re this is a re-exam thing too right this is a thing that you do with the re exam of the master plan because you don't want to just look at your housing but say oh we need we need 20 units over here to an overl it's not that thoughtful but if you really want to think about how it could happen and visualize it and and work with some of the owners out there and the I mean get the business Community I mean we talked about committees you know I've worked in places where we brought in like we had heavy rentals you know we brought in the Realtors to talk to us about how do we make good rentals and and then we talked to the Architects about how do we make good buildings how do we make it all work together so that people can yes you can rent create beautiful buildings and transform some of these places so that's the kind of stuff you don't really talk about too much in a housing plan but you would talk about that in L use plan element your Urban Design Community design element um and then that translate into either Redevelopment plan or regulations kind of getting all over the place yeah I'm trying to bring it back though heal so so so how do we I I I think we talked about um starting the the the process with a survey for the for the public and we you know we just how do we get started here I guess is really well are kind of a they're kind of a big it's not a big deal you got to do it carefully right and so it starts with formulation of the questions the things you want to know right and um there's Communications involved with this there's robust Communications and Outreach to get people to participate in it um you know it's usually like a two-month process to do that um because you want to you need to build a survey which means you got to develop the questions and what you want to know um you've got to test the survey make sure it works you have to decide what the conduit and the outlets are going to be is it going to be your website is going to be um an engagement Hub which is a separate type of website that would post all the information for your master plan or your reexamination um how how the survey gets um analyzed and eval waited in the format of the survey um there's lots of ways to do it but it's a it's it takes a lot of thought up front before you even pull the trigger on survey to do it and the gr it right and there's a lot of communications involved and there's expense yeah and our budget's really really tight but there is a benefit your firm spearheaded the last survey yeah as part of re examination so you can recycle some of those questions re them take a look at what we asked the last time was n years ago fairly recent you know and we we got a lot of good feedback with that yeah I don't I don't think it has to be complicated I'm just saying when you do it it's it's got to be built right and the questions may be a little different now I mean I I you know the consciousness of land use is all sitting around the table I think it was even a little above and beyond L use I think there were some other questions in there like Municipal related type stuff that we wanted feedback from oh oh yeah there's all kinds of get that data yeah there's all kinds of stuff you can ask and you need demographics first so you have demographics up front um and it could be very it could be very robust or it could be more we did you survey which is a it's kind of a blunt tool um but yeah but I know I know some very experienced folks who have worked with us on other Master plans who use survey much people certain things okay so are we doing a reexamination and overhaul what exactly are we going to I think that's what we wanted to determine today is what was involved in each uh it sound I mean so how do we evaluate that that's where we got stuck last last month was us that don't know what we're going to yeah I mean like there's nobody sitting here that's done this before we were we were just looking at it from a I I should say we I know I was looking at it from a perspective that is 30 years old the master plan um plus the 1991 original doc pulled up I'm looking at it right now and I look at the table of contents you know the the elements that are in there um you know we just dove into the master or the housing plan element for quite a bit um you know the land use circulation facilities just seems like it a we could certainly do the the reexamination effort and look at it from that perspective is there ever a chance or does it make sense for this body to look at doing something more than just that I think that was the fundamental question ourselves do we use it as an opportunity to refresh like actually create version you know 2026 of our PA Haven master plan yeah well it's very rare for a town to do every element of the master plan statute provides for I believe it's like 13 elements give or they should probably know that they keep adding it and then they keep hanging other things on to the elements that are redundant and they it's they crazy anyway um you can't touch 13 or you what's that when you said there's 13 different elements like you there's certain elements you have to there's mandatory element elements mandatory land use plan elements mandatory storm management master plan is now mandatory but it's not in the same section it's they you put under the utility plan element this is why say it's ridiculous um uh goals and objectives which is not really an element but it's part of the master plan there's like four you have to do um I think you have to ask the question what is the benefit of rewriting the master plan to 2026 and going through that you know the comes up a lot but the question really is what do you let's be strategic about like we're not just going to do every element just to do every element you know given budgets and time and everything what what are the things you want to accomplish and those are the elements El that are going to provide the underpinnings for zoning if you want zoning to change and your landage plan element is out of sync and you want zoning to to follow your land use plan element then you update the land use plan element don't is it wasn't that the purpose of the survey I mean we talked about that like the survey was going to guide us to what was I mean we know what we think is important based on the discussions we' had here over the last several meetings but didn't we say that the we needed to have Outreach to the public to direct us in terms of what the public felt was important that's certainly one element I think one part of the conversation last month was also looking at the 2016 reexamination had several I put it like a recommendation we suggest you do these things I come back to the the example of the setbacks on River Road and business district are still at 35 ft but we want a close in look and feel like a town feeling in the reexamination so to me and I don't know if that's part of this process but there's a Mis there's already a misalignment of the master plan and what we are governed by today and what the reexamination 2016 says we should be doing so I guess my question is is that our job as a planning board to try to rectify those in things that aren't aligned in our next version or is that a a governing body step that just never happened after we did the last re examination think it's a little bit the one thing I was going to say if you read through re examination report I think of 2 201 16 16 I think the first thing you need to look at is look at all the accomplishments that the governing body or the buau has completed whether it's putting the bike lane Network in which has always been talked about you know bike safety and pan all the street skate work you can go go down the list facility upgrades that's finally under W those are major undertak that took several years to get into the works and planning and and budgeted and you know funding allocated for and then take a look at that list of things okay you know what we didn't accomplish these maybe there's reasons why um you know your example is a good one that's a pre-existing condition with the setbacks but that's that's a whole planning exercise that would you know it's somewhat complex it's not complicated but take a look at all those things your point you call it a planning and and I think that's why it's in this conversation so when it's a planning exercise does it happen in conjunction with what we're faced with now which is a reexamination or does it happen outside the reexamination doesn't have all the answers right but the reexamination is pointing you towards the problems and issues that need answers okay so and and the master plan is where those policies get studied you know developed and then finalize prior to Zone that's the way it's supposed to be so can you make recommendations for a zoning I'm still wrapping my head around it if we were to do a re just a reexamination would that then be relay to Council to vote on to change the zoning as it stands today or does that have to be done at the master plan level the the reexamination can the re-examination can recommend ordinance changes great okay if you if if you can come to a conclusion about what you want to make a recommendation right um You can recommend we recommend that the governing body study X to determine whether the setback should be changed that that's a recommendation but you could all have a very uh clear mind and say we recommend that the governing body adopt an ordinance that makes the setbacks along River Road 10 feet right right you could say that and they can decide whether to do it or not have to be ream that can be a re exam right so the the what what we what we what what we ultimately come up with will guide the the governing body to either make or change or create additional ordinances to address what's in right it doesn't haveen doesn't have to it can it's a guide for both governing body action on ordinances we're not making policy by doing this right we can't do that ream doesn't constitute policy but the re exam is a guide for not just the governing body to change ordinances if it's clear enough or to study it it's also a guide for how to update your master plan that's also the go can we do a re-exam by the deadline that's two years from now and then in subsequent year that the master plan can be updated subsequent to a reexamination can you update the master plan at any time or is it happen can update the master plan at any time you could do as many re-exams as you want I've had towns where we've done three in a year I did two in one town last year Well winter 23 spring what is the part to El what update the various elements and you can update the master plan as often as you like what what's the perk to updating the master plan as opposed to a re-exam where you're recommending next the difference the difference between a reexamination report and a master plan is that a master plan actually has some U as a basis for your Zone the re-exam is not I mean you can recommend things there but if it's not consistent with your master plan with the governing body there's a consistency review you may have done these before at the planning board when the governing body introduces ordinance they send it back to the planning board and the planning board is supposed to look at it and say this is with the master plan go right if your master plan's from 1991 they're saying these back to you you could say listen it's not consistent with the master plan they then have to have they have a super majority vote they have to to pass it so it's complicated and if you get into any sorry who day and I'm sorry I'm sorry yeah if if the governing body refers the the ordinance to the planning board for consistency and the master plan is very old the planning board May determine that the ordinance is inconsistent with the master plan and then the governing body would have to pass it via superator or could the governing body change it on the recommendation of the planning board because due to an inconsistency we recommend that the governing body make this change they totally yes exactly of the planning that's exactly but I think too historically the burrow has had a land use subcommittee that's helped guide planning board governing body also take the annual report of the zoning board see what their recommendations and data shows and then compile proposed changes to those ordinances and we found a decent amount there's does what subcommittee did that we have't we've had historically we've had sub the um you mentioned the zoning board annual reports reading through those ahead of this meeting there are very specific recommendations each annual report that could be ported right into whatever reexamination we do I don't think had a chance to look at those as well they were you know there's there's 10 years of of of guidance from the zoning board as far as name so the important thing about the M the important thing about the master plan is you can't really it's hard to R on the re-exam at the basis for zone right it's not a policy document the master plan is let's say that you decided to have a Redevelopment plan create a Redevelopment plan for River Road and that has to be consistent it needs to be consistent with the master plan it should be if it's not you can get folks who aren't happy with what you're doing poking tools at you know so the reexamination reports then don't really update so with the way we were thinking about it last month was I was actually going to ask him that question so the re exam is not a master plan but it's not even an update so it's not even an update not at all they don't get they don't get we were talking about you re-exam the master plan look at it and make recommendations based on the master plan on what the town wants to do what direction we want to go right that's that's what happens with the re-exam that's that's right it's it's basically a to-do list for your zoning ordinances and master and then the town decides to take you up on change on ordinance or doing this or fixing or whatever we come up with in a re exam so maybe asking it slightly different way if if we identify that there were a backlog of things that were recommended in previous reexaminations and acknowledging that a lot of stuff has been up I'm not trying to make well that's that's part of the reexamination process you look you look back at the last re-exam and so in 2025 I think that's the question we're asking ourselves do we want to continue to just cultivate that list or do we actually want to back to the master plan and spend our time updating the setback limits updating the zoning charts things like that so B1 Zone we have those conversations so we hold those forums so that it's it it we're doing the work for that update rather than making a recommendation to council that says hey we think this should be updated and then that kickstarts another process where they either kick it back to us or a subcommittee or something else to actually like I I don't know the mechanism for updating the master plan if we're not the ones like the planning board updates the master plan right but you but we're saying that the master plan is not like the the the governing body passes the ordinances that's right and so just because we put something right just because we put something in the master plan doesn't mean there's going to be an ordinance well there's a presumption that there's coordination because you have governing body members on the planning board and that you know this is a this is an exercise that you're not to spinning your wheels here and then picking it up it's it's a it's a it's a collaboration to that and I think we're going is to the extent that we did the reexamination report we had certain recommendations and we knew we had the blessing of the governing body to make those it is conceivable that you could do a reexamination report and an update of the master plan in one proceeding is it not that's the way we normally recommend it and and I'll tell you why um and we just I think that's we've done some of our I don't know if that's what you're asking but but but very often and we've done this in in several places I normally recommend it is that when if you're doing a land use plan element update which is really and you're changing zones let's say you're changing zoning designations or things like that you need to update your land Ed plan element when you do that it's really important and sorry I want to interrupt you but is that us or is that zoning board is responsible for zoning board Zing planning master plan is the domain of the planning important that's all you have to you know zoning ordinances are a collaboration But ultimately adopted by the government um very often we will we will do a re-exam with the Master Plan update because um due to a quirk in the in the statute um if you do a zoning ordinance amendment that was not included in a recommendation of a master plan re-exam you have to notify everybody within that zone within 200 feet of that zone and those notices my personal surveys get very expensive um many towns like to avoid that cost so we talk about this in a way that says okay well you know this you can do this um let's do a re-exam to you want to do a re-exam to we do the re-exam to so now you've covered them both so if somebody says well was that the re exam or not you basically meld them together and um we do that routinely that's just one reason you're not trying to avoid the notice you're trying to the the master plan itself though is a is a 10,000 mile high look down on what we're doing and then the ordinances are dictating what happens based on that Master Plan correct it's actually they're in there as well so like if you look at the zoning table it's in the master plan it doesn't it doesn't have to be though like the one that was done in 91 is very specific but we've done them where we are more General like you're saying where let's say it's you know um low density resident medium density residential this is just an example high density residential but within those areas that are land use districts in the master plan you could have several zones because you have existing lot patterns that are different within the con context that and that would be just as just as reasonable and actually provides more flexibility and so that you don't you're not going back to amend your master plan just because you change the density that was recomended I was about say so the master plan can be that or you're saying currently is that detailed with zoning turn from 1991 both right right you know I mean I envisioned a master plan when we discussed I was around for the last re exam or whatever is you know the town the sze hey we we think that 35 foot height on buildings and the business district is nonsense we want skyscrapers well you have to update your master plan to say we want skyscrapers on River Road and then the zoning and everybody else would write the ordinances through the through the council to approve a 65 foot height instead 35 he right that's kind of it's it's mov from the general to the specific right the plan master plan to the zone right so when you work with other towns and do the examination and a Master Plan update does that fundamentally change the workload that the board takes on or you have to answer the questions it's it's more work guess um but it it it it allows it gives you more in the re-exam than you might otherwise have to point to if somebody yes for consistency you can say well this is the re-exam and the land so you say okay everything in here is part of the re-exam and so you put under that umbrella um but you still have to go through the questions uh that they ask and it's it's a little clunky the way the statute sets it up we try to make it a little easier um in our format um but they we usually we do them together quite often Mike this so This document 2016 Yes master plan re exam and master plan updated says both things are in this document how it seems like we got we re-exam on all the questions are answered in here detailed but the Master Plan update did not happen is that am I am I I'm not sure I'm there's a lot of this document seems to have gone around every you know subcommittee in the town and come back to here and I'm a little confused just to how do we avoid not updating the master plan if we have concrete specific recommendations that comes out of the the master plan re if we are going down the path of a re-examination how do we avoid not updating the master plan if that's what our intended goal is if that's what like our domain is as a planning board is to keep that current um right and relevant yeah so forg there first we have to do to ream and decide whether man plan fits the bill still or it doesn't doesn't then we go to you're saying the yeah you're going to answer the you're answer the questions right there you're going to answer the questions just just thinking about your master plan is going to lead you to the questions that you're going to be looking at for through the re-exam you know what were the LA at the last re exam what were the issues have they been solved have they gotten worse or better and and any new issues that you want but that then still does not update the master plan just getting just getting to the end of that re reexamination right I don't know I'm like I'm like no I that question makes a lot more sense tonight after the explanation because the title says 2016 master plan reexamination and I will say this when we did this we just added the words master plan we made it we did a master plan hearing we did a re-exam doesn't require public hearing a master plan does and so this was handled as a public hearing and there and we and we called it an update so it constituted an update technically our master plan is as of 2016 yeah but it it wasn't a robust updated but but something along the lines yes exactly it's not it's not it's not mired in 1991 ordinances and and it's it's it's a working document as of 2016 yes but it was done without having to redo the whole master plan it was and and you're never obligated to redo the whole master plan and we could do that again this time yeah and and my point about what you want to accomplish with this what's your strategy you really have to reflect on what are the things you want to happen because you don't need every element the land use plan element is like the big toe of the of the man right it's the one that drives your Zone and it underpins your zoning and gives you legal um a legal link to your Zone um circulation uh open space Recreation all the other ones that go in there utility plan elements unless there's something you want to accomplish you need to do it I mean that's generally the way we come with these things what are the things that you need to accomplish and what are the elements will help give you the policy background so it seems to me that the way to get started then would be for us to understand what elements we feel need to be addressed so what what does the board feel strongly about addressing and then I would think we would then have we then move to the survey to make sure to understand what the sentiment is in the public and then we can come back and say once we have that information we can then develop the plans to address the different elements in the reexamination does that that sound it does I I almost I I would almost suggest that because you folks think about this more than anybody else I'm assuming that you guys to think about that you have a good sense of what some of the issues are already we do no no in all seriousness I would think we would have a pretty good understanding and what we've seen in subdivisions and what we've seen in the different cases that have come before I think we have a pretty good idea of some of the things that need to be or that we would want to look at and then we may determine that there's no update necessary but but we we we would have a good idea of what needs to be looked at I mean there's some already some strong opinions about different elements um already and so I think what I'm trying to do or what I think we need to do is we need to have we need to be organized about what you know how to get started I guess and and and create some some deadlines um over the next couple of meetings to address these you know to to get started right and so I think the way to do that or the way forward would would be and please disagree if if is we should make sure we understand what elements of the master plan we want to we want to understand or I'm sorry that we want to be part of the re-examination discuss discuss those elements in terms of what what in those elements need to be need to be addressed right and then we have to develop a survey to understand what the sentiment is from the public as far as what they see what they believe need to be needs to be addressed and then we can I I would think move forward with the actual process of updating the different elements I I think is that I mean does that how does that sound in terms of what you've seen in other towns it sound it sounds close so let me let me say this I think that before you can decide on what elements you need to understand the issues that are out there to the greatest extent you can you know there's a there's a level within this room of folks who have an understanding about things and and put those in a buckle and then see where what elements have an influence over those issues you know is it a Zone CH land is it I want bike Lanes that's circulation do I want traffic com that's circulation do I want a new sewer plan that's utility right do we need to go forward with the impervious coverage Strat you know strategies that's storm water management master plan right there so the issues will tell you what the issues will drive which elements you need you should be working with the issues will also be able to for help you articulate the questions you want in that survey you want good questions you don't want a lot of open-ended you know fluffy questions everybody wants a beautiful town and they want beautiful retail and c p right everybody wants that but to be more strategic about questions you know you know for instance you know do you think we need more multif family hous right I don't know what people are going to say I know depends on the town if if if we were going to put multi housing in town would would you support uh you know 5 to 10 units 10 to 20 units 30 to 40 units and then where would you want you know these are the kind of things you know and that drives you know but it's more focused on the issues that you see and then the survey is one input tool and it's not going to give you a Magic Bullet right you are not going to have a lot of my towns they think it's going to be this great objective thing that they can point to people get mad that they did something well I did I did it because of the survey I'm looking at it as a as a way to make sure you know because we're going to identify what we believe is the ISS we're going to identify what we believe the issues are and then I I guess use the survey to see if we've missed anything or if there's any you know to validate what we think is important it's also General sentiment you're going to you may find things out that you don't know right well exactly and it also will allow you to understand from a priority standpoint what are the things that need you need to go deeper into right what are the things we need to look at more closely and drill down into it'll give you those issues too if the if the questions are articulated correctly so both you and Rich worked on the 2016 update so you're both very much familiar with the information with the changes that were made from 206 to 2016 would it would it be outside your roles to make suggestions to us as to where you would point us in a particular direction well the way I would start first is is what you were talking about let's go back and let's check off what's been done and what has been done and this is part of the re-exam process right so what hasn't been done and then it's then it is this wasn't done is it something you still think is important or do you think something and then what are the additional things you think are important and in terms of I'm not a decider but I can give good guidance on planning principles Urban Design zoning and and I can bring some of the experience that we've had in other places where we've done Zing ordinances development plans or design plans things like that yeah so so we're really here to inform you and help you make decisions I we've talked about the business district that we want to see improvements made in the business district uh to keep our businesses there and encourage new businesses to move in and that would be something the master plan could address absolutely we're seeing that a lot of our a lot of our towns that have older commercial districts they're looking for ways to revitalize to get it's economics too it's like we want things nicer but we also want to keep the economy going I mean when you're in a uh you know insurance goes up every year the the cost of a municipality go up every year um and yeah and you need to you need to find place where can you grow and where can you change because that's where your economics are going to come from in your economics so it's something we're dealing with in lots of places what do you think we can as takeaways from this meeting for each of the planning board members I feel like I I've kind of heard some Executives always say things like you just start by starting so should we all just come back to the next meeting with one issue that we think needs to be solved one survey question yeah I I think that we would we would start we we would next meeting we would come back with with everyone having looked at the the 2016 reexamination and for lack of a better term come back with your scorecard what do you what do you think has been addressed or not addressed or or to what degree do you think something has been degress addressed has it been addressed well has it been mostly addressed has it been not addressed at all and let's understand how we all view the progress from 2016 and then like you said Dave I agree with you then what are the issues that we all feel are important and codify that in some kind of document coming out of next meeting that we can then in the October meeting I would think start the survey construction which what which is what our Target was to begin with anyway break to committees like taking right we can start to the issues that we identify next meeting we can say you know who on the board is is most qualif or or you know sits in the middle of of those issues the best I guess I think by identifying pass about yeah there you go that's what you're getting at is something what we what we normally try to do is like a TR right to and that's what you're talking about you know what what's what where were we in 2016 what's been addressed what should still be addressed that hasn't been addressed and what are the new issues it can see that's really the three questions I start with looking at that can you say that again please you would look at what what are the things that were recommended in 2016 that were addressed and and to what satisfaction do you think they were addressed what wasn't addressed that you think uh should be off the list what should stay on the list and why and then what are the new issues that you think need to be addressed and based on the subject matter so like I said that all they'll find its way to which of the elements is the appropriate and that I think that's a good way to do it um if you want what I would what I would suggest is that as part of this I know do do you have a good Bas map of the town with everybody that they can mark up and any put comments on I I mean I could spit one out in two seconds I don't want to do the work you got um if you you probably have more tools to develop that okay yeah what I what I would suggest is that also with a map of maybe it's the zoning I don't even know if the zoning maybe it is but something like in addition to writing things but marking up you know the T what what are the issues and where and where identify those when we do public Outreach very often we'll have a you know in person um engagements and sometimes we'll have Maps out there and folks are writing on them and drawing and telling us where they went bike pass and where they went train all but as a board you could do that same exercise to complement what you're talking and the re exam evaluation so i' be interesting to have instead of a survey kind of as you're describing like give the give the towns give the public access to like a map where they can put a star well social yeah and a comment yeah there's engagement ups to do that yeah you can do that but it's what's different about it is you have to be limited in the questions like you you have to say I forget what it's called but it's a it's a pen you do put a pin it's a digital thing it's an app and you can go online and they can use it um and that's one of the engagement tools it's not social pin it's um the it's an interesting way it's an interesting way to actually supplement I think just survey questions well the surveys now too um when you publicize them you send them out with QR codes and people are like you know they at a stop later that a business and they do the QR code and they go right do survey that that's that's the thing about survey if you're if you're doing it if you're not using survey um but you're actually program you program it for all your devices to and then if you're doing let's see what's that sounds expensive it can suring monkey cheap um sorry but but there's there's ways to do it and um and there's other engagement you know public engagement methods that don't cost a lot of money you could have Bridge sitting you know setting up shop by the ACT I like that yeah we'll do that I'll bring you table Yeah you can borrow and and he'll have he'll have the survey on an iPad like hey take the survey do it outside the dunky donuts be real or next to the Girl Scouts the fair right you know but people aren't really equipped to do surveys at the fair but that's that's normally what we do right we get some real honest answers at the well we're we're doing a a big plan up in h County and and there's going to be the county fairs going up next week right so they're going to be the QR code's going to be out there going to be announcing the people and try to get people involved Fireman's Fair starts Friday but I think for a first step review and get all your and don't and you know as many ideas as you want to put into the hopper because then you guys can sit here you can fight about what important and then get into all right so what do we say this so reread 2016 re exam what was addressed since 2016 what can be removed from the suggestions from 2016 um what new issues have come up in our own one um and then I would love to challenge everybody to come up with one survey question to discuss you know is there any but there's other documents you can review too I mean so there's the the impervious coverage the Ruckers Ruckers there's the active Transportation plan thep I don't that I seen we did in 2017 do very helpful tool send that to you okay yeah what about I didn't see it online there's all the work that the land use committee has has done the um plus we said out survey so we have that survey too that was very helpful and it was very well received what was that survey for I'm sorting that was for it was on Fair Share housing it was on um oh that had some other um other Municipal type questions involved yeah in there but but it was a lot of bles questions and then at the end we threw in some Municipal General Municipal questions but it was it was very well um responded to you know we had I think like 60% responded was a very good respond it's huge who ran the survey uh many and then they they just Survey Monkey that was it yeah I think I think DJ put it on Survey Monkey for us I think so yeah we did it ourselves yeah so we can get a copy there right yeah oh yeah so I think it's on the website what what's the DAT what's the8 so a couple things we just mentioned as far is like Circa 2018 every time you I'll get us for you is it acted now as well that subcommittee no no we haven't no was it was we stood up for that Tod was on the committee he chaired the committee sorry just going back a page um we want to reread the ruers report the ATP report the land use survey can we somehow have those organized and resent to the planning board is that is that a Sheila thing or yeah I don't know anything that I well last month we also talked about the River Road study from 2007 the fair housing plan the transportation plan I think that's what you're referring to the ECP those are all documents discussed last montho sorry Rich was the rord report is there impervious coverage yeah it talked about how to reduce imper you know did impervious coverage and it looked at ways to mitigate it on particular sites that had a potential for absorbing storm water we we're working with Ruckers again I should have a proposal from them it's a a service that they got a great D so they reached out to municipalities we were actually the first town to reach out to them we had a zoom call with them last week two weeks ago and we are looking to expand the whole storm water management best management practices reinstruction type stuff can eventually get incorporated into subordinance updates and that's that's all part of the planning process so it's there's other things happening you know is your storm water management master plan up to date MH any reason for utilities to be in in the world here the only thing is whether or not they go towards a uh utility for storm water well that's yeah that's part of the storm water right are you looking at it we're not but um I think New Brunswick may have adopted that or there's some towns that are I know I know Princeton is moving that way Lambertville is um to go that way what we're talking about is just like your sanitary sewer system as a utility Two Rivers municipalities moving towards making a storm your storm water system utility and um we haven't talked about that but it's it's kind of a newer topic that's been discussed and that's the what regulate tax on it charge for it yes it's a mechanism to charge for it and then be able to make upgrades make upgrades maintain it yes yeah and and some of the structures that I know of the way that they do it is they they incentivize folks to do like even on the single family lot to do various like nonstructural and green infrastructure your in order to get a credit discount on the on the fees because it's for maintaining the stor water infrastructure what are some of the things you do well uh like redention sisters recharge recharge yeah um what about um Recreation open space you that was in the 2016 is there is there a recreation open space coordinator or Recreation there's no open space tax okay the county is the what about the recreation programming and maintenance and stuff it's all funded through the annual budget basically but is who's in charge of who's in charge of you know making sure that Recreation works and programming and facilities and things director parks and recation and the recation committee they meet month and they bring back their recommendations they work off a three to five year plan they they put in for various projects talk to various sports groups I have an understanding of like the load on fields and all facilities between leads and everything else DJ has good handle on that he's our director of Parks and Recreation so so one one of the things that I I will tell you that just as valuable as reaching out to the public is reaching out to the the staff and the folks who manage these various things engaging them not in a public setting but in a you know in in a lesser set to find out what the issues are on their side because you might find out that you know there's something that's needs to be done for field or you need plenty more pickleball courts something like I think you may find some reason why that may not have been significantly addressed is is is informed in your reexamination report with regard to open space and Recreation and you got your survey back you can see this on your report that majority of residents seem to be satisfied more than satisfied are very satisfied with the girl's active and passive Recreation there were some other things part of the that then there was also you know responders were generally partially satisfied or satisfied with the availability and quality various active recreation community facilities in the burough such as but not limited to tennis facilities voting access soccer facilities and those things so it may not have got been highlighted that much in the last survey so there may not have been a drive for that there were however some things that were mentioned within the reexamination concerning the police department which I would say if you had to check off something what we're were going before Police Department was checked off Department of Public Works it was checked off uh with regard I don't know what the brush facility is uh this facility should be considered for relocation based on priorities from Community facility evaluations don't know what that is I don't know if that was done Community Center they formed a brush and leaf committee so that did yeah yeah there was some okay and and and again there was the community center and I understand we ended up combining that within one of our facilities so you may again you can have some check off things but that still may be an active question that you put into your survey how do you like your you know your current Recreation facilities there was a mention that folks in the last reexamination said they would like it if there was improved access to the m syn I don't know if that's still active or not and I know maybe things very easy to into a Ser question through those of events [Music] anyone and again that's just starting with what they highlighted and take use of those surveys that you've already done and come to conclusion to whether or not that's still active that may inform the survey questions that are a little more pinpointed by the so then I think we have at least a we have next step we have a next step for for next meeting and then we can go we can go from there yeah I think I mean I think we're still a little early to for you know formal I think between next meeting and the October meeting we then have something that that M's firm can look at and and we can then formally start I guess and we'll get all these docs sent to the board then I guess what DJ link provid I me it's out there right no I'm certain they're all there I just want to make sure that I'm hitting the ones they before do we have a copy of the last survey questions list or do have that actually yeah example we need that we need 201 most proba available to search they all like public do so but if I can be helpful and put it all together in one place I can do that I just want to make sure I know exactly what that's it's real important that we have like a a clearing house for all the documents so everybody who's involved can access them I'm not talking about the public I'm talking about the board and and anybody else in terms of any folks who are can we just come back to an earlier topic the to the housing plan element is being updated by Council it's being it's it's it's it's being updated but it's under the advice of Mike Edwards with the higher and Ro there Mike Edwards is with h right mik Ed Mike Edwards is our affordable housing attorney gotcha okay and he works in concert with the planner iron R iron Ru is no longer you're plan different plan when did that change R was affordable housing the governing body appointed the professional so the reason I asked wait wait AG let finish p r are still the agents I thought you still had some but we we as a planning board we retained hiring Ru as our as the housing element attorney we did that I mean know remember we had that whole debate about should we have two planners or one two planners one out we went with two for whatever reason and and so we had high I so how did that now change without yeah we when we when we appointed all of our professionals yeah we appointed CCH as the the board planner and hir and GRL as the housing uh as the housing planner for for the housing element wait did we a point or did we just did we understand I thought that the town had highing rule as a blanket advisor the B highing rule was their planner but we picked CCH as our as our Planner yeah I didn't want to do that I said we should all just go with one so that we're all reading off the same page but we went off we pardon that's yeah exactly I mean and we ended up with with three planners I guess so CCH H and GRL well H and GRL the not as far as I know they are no longer appointed by the burrow were right matters okay burrow has a burrow planner an affordable housing planner an affordable housing administrative agent and then the boards have their own professionals that you right and so we we we appointed CCH as our so who so so we're responsible for the housing El element update in June of 2025 I would think right so who's doing that like I guess doing that as far as I know but I will confirm so that's my question if we're responsible for the planning document and that's an element of the planning document why are we not doing the update to that I thought yeah the master plan includes the master plan incl the housing element burrow is responsible for providing the units the like the plan the plan yeah okay AR we all part of the burrow we are but I think I think through the work of Mike Edwards office all of his communication has been directed and you get a copy of it right Rich from Mike Edward you're copying on all he's basically spearheading the eff yes yeah so is it a narrow scope of just affordable housing updates or is it that whole section in the master plan the housing plan Element no it only has to do with the affordable housing requirements for the for the for the rule the new going to be new housing new housing element fair share plan it's going to replace whatever you want and if you can let just my recollection what happened before was that in coordination with what the burrow the burrow of the board which our board burrow and the board will doing the burrow was lead because they were involved with the Vol litigation come up with appropriate plan that would be adopted by the court what our role became at that point in time was then adopting the ordinances which also I believe and I can go back and check this but which also then updated our master plan go back to some of the things Mr Sol saying before we our plan had to be consistent with the master plan so at least that portion dealing with affordable housing it had not been consistent it was now consistent which allowed us to then adopt those ordinances and were given an opinion by those who were presenting it at that point in time I may have it confused as to which plan it was but then said with this update your housing element master plan concerning affordable housing will be consistent with one another and these ordinances can be adopted so in a sense it was a mini if you will Mini review of your master plan mini update of your master plan to make those things consistent which help then the court say this is acceptable to us now in the never ending scheme so I advised this before there now coming out with new numbers as to what our responsibility is and we and that may oblige us to again do that so I think your question is yes we are but I think in certain instances mayor and Council taking the lead to make sure we're consistent with what our numbers are which drives us then to sort of reverse engineer it the lack of a better way to put it make sure it's consistent with our ministry I believe that that's how it I don't know in Scotch is a different de no it just they're they're looking for the town not the planning board to provide them with the information on how we're going to fulfill the new housing notes when we first did it we did it with overlay zones and we met those needs we had and now they up the numbers so how are we going to accommodate the larger numbers even though we don't have a or we have a realistic uh development potential of two we requireed to 400 I mean it's ridiculous so this question I just curious why I didn't come to this body to be discussed and addressed last time I was in front of planning board I'm the one who involved with overlays that's how I know what we overl and everything with Todd and everybody else we decided on the over the planning for not Council then kind of agree coun that's a question we can bring up yeah Josh do you know why I have no idea okay fair last time we sat here went over it month after month meeting after meeting on ways in the church and then we had a public hearing a lady from the church who was the trustee of the church came in and says are you taking my place from em domain and we said no all this means if you ever decide to sell the church nothing happens but if you ever decided to sell the church it would then be this overlay where somebody if they wanted to could put it for La nobody was mandated to but we have all these discussions had it it had to have the master bedroom on the first floor I me we went through all of that but I thought we did it as a committee not as a planning is that I guess is that what you think is happening is there a committee dealing with right no okay I just asked the question why if if we're responsible for the master plan why an element of the master being updated without I'm to see thead administrator tomorrow I will ask him he has asked us not un counsel or staff people to reach out to professionals without going through him so I will ask him to reach out to Mike Edwards and say why is this going emails going around through Council as opposed to the planning that I can find out well and but it sounds as if this is supposed to be a planning board driven I don't know I I don't know well there had to be some coordination because your your ordinance 2021 coordination I guess your ordinance 2021 D1 amended your affordable housing ordinance you had ordinances 2024 2025 2026 2027 through 10 and then ultimately you had an ordinance [Music] that specifically occurred I don't I can't tell you the mechanics but to the extent that the ordinates were then passed they were developed by man Council as to the plan certainly not since I wasn't in the room yeah I'm not going to doubt what you said that that you came up with that but there obviously some coordination that then ined and then to make that conclusion before because I was here for those these are consistent with your master plan there had to be that update in there so otherwise you don't have made that that statement and relied Upon Our that time depending on which agency it was I apologize for not going through I remember I remember the woman coming and speaking because we did that over a zoom yeah I mean planning was planning board was deeply involved last time now whe now whether it came as some sort of plan from Council and then we reviewed it we reviewed it meeting after meeting with all our there were several meetings we yeah but we were deeply involved with that overlays and all that kind of stuff we have property you know y yada all that all that so I will find out [Music] tomorrow thanks question I'm not asking for answers that we need to have but I would have thought this would be something that we would be driving or that we would have like we would have permissioned CCH to then sort of do the work in our direction right like we would I mean I get that it has to be done like it has to be a coordinated effort right but I yeah and and then is there a chance though that um we're actually just we will be involved but just EXA right because all all that's been required now is to do reporting as I said when we first started trust fund reporting was due in June but they moved the deadline to September so there's a deadline in September for trust fund reporting there the September deadline is also for unit monitoring how many units you've created you know what the status is do you have deed restrictions on all this other stuff but who's managing all like who's like is that Mike Edwards okay so somebody I I just yeah well that kind of makes sense though right so so if we get some sort of feedback that the units that we have pre you know pre previously determined are like now we're not we're out of compliance inoti form then then it might get to us to start um coming up alternative plans and it might be different overlays or I don't know right or incentives like you mention you might you might be our overlays could be our overlay you're going to Overlay the historic district share housing you know then then it comes down to like incentives like you mentioned you revisit your you may be revisiting him but your unmet need is going to travel from the last round to this round yeah you're going to obligation is going to add to your there's going to be some looking at the me mechanisms and where it is but generally it's going to be the same deal okay I would suggest you to the extent that you've experienced the Builder's remedy come with a settlement and plan you were ahead of many municipalities because were're forced to yeah we watch Ron take Bea him so we jumped on it right away I think that is ultimately our goal right like we want to make sure we do not there is no Builder's remedy option out there right we are we are going to have a plan you comp you want you want to receive counsel not a reaction yeah makes sense okay okay so uh yeah we should open up I I don't have anything else with regards to this I think we have a plan before the next meeting what to do Betsy thank you for following up on on all those items um in terms of what's going on with the the housing element um and so we'll open up for public comment hi uh this is Tracy Cole Sheila are you bringing me in now here hi can you hear me yes hi Tracy yes hi everyone um I've I really appreciate your conversation tonight and I'm just here once again to support your process I think this is really important for Fair Haven and um I appreciate all your work I had a couple just on the and I think you covered it but to Sean's point you know the the fair share piece of element of the House of the master plan would probably have been initiated the planning board as part of a a reexamination or an update in years past but it you know for one reason or another Fair even didn't get to it never initiated it it's on on its own so I mean if not for the threat of a lawsuit um that's probably the way things would have proceeded but um we took an alternate path and um we were confronted with a potential lawsuit and so it shifted and moved into a FasTrack which is you know my understanding of why it didn't initiate independently as part of the normal process at the planning board so uh but that that's the initi that was two years ago or whenever it was I'm talking about this time right so I I guess the law was passed in March is that when it was passed it was passed in [Music] March so we're only a couple months out I mean so I I guess you know Dave as you said it's possible that it's going to make its way to us you know we we'll get that answer from from Betsy um shortly I certainly from my my from my vantage point I think that it should be closely coordinated with the work of the planning board um and of course we now we have a plan it'll just evolve over time as the state continues to meter out new obligations and then we evaluate our ability or or need as we see appropriate but I had a couple questions about um I know you're going to be reviewing documents and Mr solvin I guess this questions are for you there's a sha tree commission and environmental commission both of which have uh documents as is mandated by state the statute the environmental resource inventory at the environmental commission and the community forestry management plan at the shade tree commission um both bodies are mindful of the need to update those but do should they be considered in this same bucket of documents that are going to be reviewed by the board it it any document that's relevant to the subject matter that's covered in the master plan elements um even if they're sort of adjunct to or parallel to the master plan may be helpful to the board members and to the public in assessing how to articulate policies in Master Plan update or recommendation in a re-exam so certainly they should be uh reved okay so um when when we read the reexamination or the master plan can we assume that some I that's not the right word but are we to understand that the work that's in those documents is in part driven by the community's values so meaning while surveys are helpful it doesn't necessarily tell us exactly um you know the most important thing or what everybody's thinking right now because some of that is already in the master plan and the re examination surveys are helpful to sort of validate that but aren't those already embedded in the documents are Community Values I don't I don't know we I can't answer that yeah so why why I asked that is because um and Mr kovat I I may have not been tracking what you were saying properly but I heard you kind of refer to the fact that there's a survey the results of which may have indicated that the public is satisfied say for example with um the management of our open space and yet we know we know at Council we're struggling to I mean Our intention is to definitely take care of it uh but we know we need some professional guidance in those areas and we don't yet have a conservation um open space and Recreation element for our master plan which would be a great go-to for some just overview of the capacity of the open space and what what needs to be added what needs to managed or stewarded differently I guess I'm trying to say that we might not necessarily need to the public to tell us that we need to do a better job when we already know we do I I I think to give context to to my answer there was a question or at least a colloquy between our our Professionals in this instance as to where certain things were addressed where certain things weren't addressed was trying to offer a thought not having been there for either that as a result of the survey it did not appear to be a driving need to address those things at that time that my answer now to in response to yours is you may be right you may not need a survey we may already know what's there but in trying to inform the colle between our professionals is to perhaps why that was not given a great deal of additional attention in the last Master Plan update reexamination and update it may have simply been because the information we had at that point in time didn't necessarily tell the planning board in 2016 that that was an issue that they needed Tove address then and there but yeah time I I I understand what you're saying um and 10 years has made a difference uh I guess I had two more questions Mr svin is your firm usually asked to um provide a a process kind of outline or overview for at some point I really I know the board is just beginning this work but at some point um is it generally Your Role or the firm's role to Pro provide sort of a process so that everyone understands what's happening the community as well as the board yes yes yeah and every Town's different every board's different um we can adopt the process to whatever works for a particular municipality or particular planning board or governing body or whoever that is so I'm not at the point yet where I understand fully how the structure is going to work here um but once we have those conversations and we can lay it out and come to an agreement on what that process would be then yes we articulate that that's great that would be very helpful um my last question and and I don't know what everybody thinks about this but would it be helpful at some point maybe that's not maybe it is now I don't know to look at um sort of really great Master plans um you know prepared by your office or others but they're they're they're not necessarily going to be fair even course but just or even specific to or related to but um there are awardwinning kind of Master plans I don't know that anybody's seen I personally have because this is stuff that interests me but um some of them are very visual they color renderings you know they're all what Fair Haven is used to looking at is what you have on the table there in front of you and I was just wondering if you thought it might be helpful to look at some other documents just to broaden the understanding of what a master plan could be for Fair Haven sure I I think that's a great idea um recognizing that you know different efforts have different levels of budget and you know but you can get a sense of what these look like um we just finished Princeton's master plan last fall um they want to submit a per award I don't know if it been but it's a and it's fairly broad I'll say this the prinson hadn't done a master plan a full master plan in in a long time and it really and they merged the township and the and the borrow merged into one municipality and it really was like a two-year 18-month effort it was a re-exam plus uh the master plan very very robust public Outreach if you look in the back in the appendices and it talks about the public Outreach it was insane um but um we really on eight I believe eight plan elements plus a re exam on that so very comp very aware to see a town do that um Hasbury Park um we did theirs that's a re-exam and a Master Plan update um and in terms of visual uh and why will we did a Pacific Avenue Redevelopment plan which is really a combination of zoning and and master plan but in that there's much more Urban Design guidance than you would see in a typical master plan but if that's important in a place like the uh business district and thinking about how multif family or mixed use goes it can work with that um and there's other and there's other towns that we haven't worked in and have good Master plers to I I would welcome the opportunity to look at them if those links are ever offered um they're documents go to the I know I know Asbury Park and Princeton have them online yeah thank you any other uh public comment Josh anything all right uh move to move to adjourn second yeah all in favor I so all right so I'll get you that two things I'm going to find the survey find out I'm gonna go talk to anyway because