[Music] over [Music] over hey hey hey hey
hey hey heyy hey he committee on ordinance and legislation come to order if the clerk could call the role here here here CH here pursuant to the open
meeting law any person may make an audio or visual recording of this public meeting or may transmit the meeting through any medium attendees are therefore advised that such recordings or Transmissions are being made whether perceived or UNP perceived by those present and are deemed acknowledged in
permissible do we have any citizen input no um that's item one item two on the agenda to approve the minutes of the January 14th 2025 meeting motion to approve second motion to approve and a
second all in favor I thank you item number three handicap parking um I know Stephanie's here if you want to come down Mrs MacArthur proposed ordinance it's albian Street
East 881 ft north of Downing Street Bedford Street north of 105 uh 105 ft west of Eddie Street Bradford Street North 45 ft east of Fountain Street Foster Street East 33
feet south of Buffington Street Kellogg Street East 268 feet south of Osborne Street Lindsay Street East 28 feet north of Brightman Street Oliver Street North 90 feet east of Broadway Pitman Street
East 236 feet north of Harman Street President Avenue south 85 ft of June Street South Main Street West 95 feet south of King Philip Street South Oxford Street West 249 ft south of Brighton
Avenue Swindell Street East 130 ft north of Pleasant Street Whipple Street East 67 ft south of Osborne Street wigam Street North 36 ft east of malberry Street motions for emergency Preamble
second emergency Preamble first and second roll call please on that motion counc yes councel har Council proposal yes councel Simpson yes CH yes motion to
pass the RO readings second motion to pass the RO readings first and second all in favor hi item number four miscellaneous traffic 15minute parking on George
Street souths side 48 ft of Lindsay Street Monday through Saturday 6 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. and that's for a removal and George Street side 52 feet east of Lindsay Street Monday through
Sunday 6:00 a.m. to 700 p.m. um um this is being removed why are they extending it two more hours is there a business it's a different business so the original one was from a previous business so now it's a new business opening with different hours of
operation different hours of operation how is the parking down there is it tight it is it is it's congested um so we're we're only giving them just that one space but that's I mean it was it's always been there so
it's just that one space m okay and section three is 1 hour parking braon Avenue South 46 feet east of broadman Street Sunday uh Monday through Sunday from 1100
a.m. to 11 p.m. do you have a question yeah I'm just curious what counos what is that for section three the um is that into the business as well no it's not into business it's right now Avenue Cafe oh okay mhm got it I Y thank you how many
spots is that two usually 20 22 MH okay and item uh section four is handicap parking removals do you want me to read them all no motion pass through first
reading second all in favor I thank you thank you have a great night you you as well thank you item number five is a proposed ordinance the Four
River Public Library new positions of Museum security officer of the public library service and processing Archives of the public library service it was referred on 211 and I believe uh Felicia desaris is here to speak on this is
there anyone else with you Felicia yeah I have Emily Mr Main and Emily just if you could all state your name and position so that those at home know who you are and welcome Felicia I think it's your first time here it is it
thank you uh my name is Felicia desmaris I'm the director of the fall of Republic Library Nick molini Director of Human Resources Emily Ary interm CFO okay do you want to tell us a little bit about why you need these positions
yes um so for the the security guard positions uh we've kind of struggled with an issue at the library for a long time having a lot of individuals who are maybe experiencing homelessness some individuals who might be in between
um um recovery programs uh and a lot of those individuals come into the library and a lot of the behaviors that we're seeing uh we don't we're not really equipped to deal with with the security guides that
we have currently we have um two part-time security guards and they're only there in the evenings and their the salaries that they have right now uh we weren't able to get the qualifications that we really needed for those
positions such as um having first aid um CPR yeah CPR exactly um so and also just to have the knowhow to deescalate a situation and to be able to address things um as they come up very quickly because a lot of the things happen very
fast we've had issues where some of our staff have had to step in and deal with deal with a problem a lot of um issues occur in our bathrooms um we have a hard time monitoring the bathrooms um and so I think that the security position is
really necessary because we need someone who's able to get through that building very quickly uh we need someone there all the time because with The Gap with the part-time hours that we have in the morning um there's individuals who come in they get comfortable and they know
that there's not someone on staff at that point and then by the time that the security comes in they've kind of already um started I guess started problematic behavior in the library that has already
it's had a chance to grow um and it it just creates an environment where there's it's not safe uh for for children uh who are coming to our programs for our staff uh one of the instances there was a woman who um was
trying to end her own life and in our bathrooms and she fell broke a toilet uh one of my staff members tried to intervene caught her hand and it was just they're just situations that we would really need someone who's really qualified uh for okay how much do the
part-timers get paid there um it starts at 1842 an hour and if this position is given are we still keeping those two part-timers no we would not be keeping the part- timers um one of the
individuals voices to me on a weekly basis that this really isn't what he signed up for and he is looking for other job okay and the other person is also looking for employment elsewhere it is a stressful position if I have other questions but I believe Council Samson uh wants to answer ask some questions so
I'm just curious how often are the police called there how many calls a week areow to um so we don't we don't call them every week um a lot of the time we try to handle the situations ourselves because we know that the police are often doing other things and
we feel if we if we call them for something that we can handle on our own um it it might be that um it's it's not seen as as uh something that will be I I guess so serious yes so
serious the next time we don't want to call for any anything um and a lot of the times when there's someone who is is having like problematic behavior in the library by the time we call they do take off uh and then it's kind of a CH case so we feel really really bad for taking
the police officer time cuz by the time that they get there they usually leave so does a staff feel unsafe yes so the staff is feeling unsafe how do you know in the last year how many calls you have to the police department down there I
don't I wouldn't be the only one calling either because uh when Leanne was the director I'm not sure that she ever kept track of that uh she might have but I don't have access to anything like that um lately we've been working a lot with the fast team so we will call them first
um mostly to try to to try to see if they can solve any of those uh issues for us and also find the individuals a place to stay because we know that the police can only do so much in that regard um so we're and we try to give them the resources that they need and
it's not only individuals experiencing um homelessness it's not only the people who are in recovery uh it's all walks of Life we've had issues with domestic violence disputes um just a couple weeks ago there was a domestic violence
dispute in my stacks and um the security guard on duty he's he's a younger gentleman he went to stop the argument from happening but when he did so the gentleman got really close to him and in his face started calling him racial
slurs and he started to lose his cool a little bit so I found myself and my assistant administrator trying to really get him to back away so it's an issue of just not knowing how to deescalate um so just a few questions yeah
um this what are the hours of this position so it would be from a half an hour before uh we open so that would be 7:30 um I don't I don't have that here with me I'm sorry I uh so so we
anticipate there being an overlap I believe it was from 7:30 to 2:00 um I was I was I I don't have uh work out the hours the intent was to have coverage from a half hour before to a half hour
after after the LI CL yeah I had a couple questions about break break periods all of that stuff that I hadn't gotten settled okay um I guess I'll yield to my colleagues thank you thanks Council reposa thank you hi nice to meet you finally um so two you're looking for
two positions um at 50k each so it's 100 total uh Emily I guess ask you the question as far as Financial constraints are concerned budget can take it on so um I know at this point in time part of what she was looking to use is some state aid um funding that comes in every
year that we've been it's a it's a special P it's not typical state aid money that comes in so it's a special funding that they get that's been set aside in a reserve for right now that we would like to start using for some of this um given obviously that some of the positions are being released in order to
do it I think we would utilize some of that funding but the other the majority of it for right now would be coming out of um the state aid funding that they're getting that hasn't been utilized okay all right I thank you councilor kadim so I I fully support the security um aspect
of this and I and I don't disagree I I think we need uh full-time security at the at the library for the reasons that you stated I think my questions more fall in line with whether or not we want in-house security or we want to stick with an Outsourcing of of the security
so I guess you know if we if we have two full-time positions obviously those two individuals are going to have some uh obviously leave and things of that nature whether it's sick time vacation so there's going to be points where you don't have coverage that you don't always have two so like my question
would be are we still going to maintain some Outsourcing uh with that and then this the second part of my question um given the fact that we only have two individuals who would be um essentially security officers how are we handling um you know ongoing training and
certifications and things of that nature since it's not since we don't have a Security Department per se okay well I was to say so for things like CPR we could handle that in-house through EMS department just to to maintain certifications on that but I mean we one of the things you did
discuss was that we have used outside um agencies before and just haven't had the results that we should have had through those agencies yes um so the the part- Tim the city employees as part-timers that we have now is actually something pretty recent we tried that to solve the
problem of the private companies uh when we were having private companies um bid on on the service the service that we were getting the individuals were actually making the workers feel unsafe uh we were having people come in and
Shout shouting at the staff and there was it was just a level of unprofessionalism that I had not seen working anywhere else so uh and we tried different companies it had gone on for quite a while it just it did not work out well um those people would often not
show up um this position um it is it would be annually renewable based on performance um because it was funded because it's an anticipated to be funded with state aid funds uh it needs to be approved by the board that we continue
this and so the performance would have to be there um in order to keep that person in the position so that's one thing that we felt might be important because if someone is not so in what we need in security of the building we we can't afford to keep them
on okay I guess I would still I would need some more information you know just a financial analysis in terms of you know what what the cost is I know you said it was like about $19 it was 18 and change so for the part- Tim $19 so roughly 20,000 for parttime so yeah for
the and annually um it's 13,725 that we have uh for each for each of the part-timers that we have on we have two of them and um sometimes they don't show up so if they don't show up they don't get paid but um but I think the issue is we need them there so so I
I guess my um what I would like to see and I'm not saying that I'm a no right now I just need more information so um just discussion in terms of you know ongoing training is there going to be you know Naran that's going to be provided I know you had talked about that is their n training um also just in
terms of potential Li on the on the on the city in terms of taking the security position on and I I know we could probably have some conversations with the school department since they do have a a security department to see how they're handling that and maybe maybe some of the training is cross trained
with with the school department in that sense uh which I would be okay but oosha training um but then we've got you know if somebody gets hurt workers comp things of that nature so I just want to be able to kind of make sure that we're kicking the ties on on all those things before we make a decision to move away
from having uh Outsourcing and and if it comes back that Outsourcing makes more sense then maybe you know the issue becomes more about trying to find um you know an agency that actually provides better quality service but I I don't disagree I I think there should be uh some type of
security at least in the library at all times you know prior to opening and and prior to closing especially obviously given the fact that we we know what the library has has become um so it is a it becomes a a warming shelter during the day a place to to kind of hang out while
the places are are closed so so I'm I'm not saying that I'm not supportive I just need more information um I do just want to clarify the positions currently are City positions they're just part-time so we we don't yes they historically have been privatized positions but currently they're
part-time City okay so I I missed that I I I I remember when they were outsourced for company okay so how are we handling so are we handling the training how are we doing that now there is no training um right now there needs to be absolutely um but
I think that with with these individuals like I said one of them just I mean he reminds me on a weekly basis that he doesn't want to be here so um it's just it's a situation of a waiting game um I was hoping that this would solve the problem they he wanted to work in a
library he didn't specifically know that the security um would be this this necessary in our building it's gotten it's gotten progressively worse Last Summer we had a lot of encampments um happening in our parking lot every morning we came in there was people
camped in our in our parking lot then I guess the um you know the other question I might have is is whether or not these individuals should fall under the library U maybe it's under the police department and more of a conversation with the chief in terms of what that
looks like or operations because I I respect what you do but you know I mean at the end of the day I don't I don't think it should be on her to um make sure people are getting trained on all the you know security measures that are that are necessary I I think she would want to make sure that
there's somebody who who is trained and educated in that to be able to provide that type of information for her to ensure that uh you know the library is is as secure and safe for you know constituents coming in and then also the the workers that we have so makes sense I
yield now I know that um we're talking about training do you have a list of specifically what you you think that those people need to be trained in like Council team brought in Narin etc those are things that um so I definitely yep I
definitely think that um Naran CPR all basic first aid should be uh should be a requirement when uh when I was thinking about these things I really felt that there should be some background knowledge in security and a potentially
military background or a law enforcement background in education um and so the salary uh the average salary in this area that Banks and museums use because we also have a lot of valuable paintings um and so we want to protect our assets
uh I was looking at the annual salary for that average is 55,000 so that's where the the salary number came from so that's that's the average um going rate for individuals who already have a
history of of knowledge and education or experience uh with security uh in facilities that have high value items and also uh those those same facilities they do they do also value the the safety of their guests so it's something
that that is a standard um so uh the education and experience was work in law enforcement service military or security um cyber security also because we have surveillance we have a surveillance system but we it's not doesn't make sense to have our staff is constantly
surveilling they're busy doing other things so we have this surveillance system that it would be great if we had someone to really be able to use it yes uh and to use it as it's intended I know one of the part-time has told me that somebody was attempting to do something
illegal in the bathroom and had an overdose situation and that that they did then did have to call the police um and I believe knockan was used when they saw that it was on the agenda when we were going to be talking about it tonight I got a call earlier and they expressed a lot of what you're
expressing this cannot be put into the budget not depending on state aid that we may get we may not get is there room in the budget so there is potential room so um you know she actually brought it to us with wanting to use a state aid that hasn't been um utilized in a couple of years that I mean they in all
actuality they should be using um and so this is kind of one of the ways she wanted to start utilizing it we kind of talked about it not being maybe a forever plan that we would kind of put put it into the budget and and work it in in that way but as an immediate solution um in a way that she wanted to start utilizing the funds that she has
every right to utilize this is the way she wanted to do it but we definitely talked about bringing them into the general fund budget because they are something that needs to be um constant with the library Have you shared any of your concerns with the police chief um I
have yes I think there I think that they just have a lot on their plate um I think that it's a concern that they share um yeah but I have I have shared concerns sometimes they will have officers walk through and when the officers walk through I will say
everyone scatters but um as soon as they're gone you know they get very used to they get used to the EB and flow and the patterns of our building and when the security come in um they're there all of the time so that's why I think we really need someone there before open
and after close yeah I know I have seen people in the back where you park yeah seeing people on the stairwell there in the back entrance uh sleeping councelor Samson do you have something yeah I can that state aid be used to fund the police officer
if we're looking at $100,000 can we just get a police officer down there for that eight hour shift instead of two potential security guards with no training and we don't even have an Avenue to train and we don't know what the training is so can that state aid can you request that state aid to fund
an exra police position so the state aid is Library state aid and um it's it's intended to be used as the Director in the board suggests only for the library and needs to be spent by the library um so it can't be appropriated by the city in another way to another department
yeah I think them being I think them being a part of another department would complicate that and I think the union aspect is where it would kind of come in I think in a general sense in some ways yes they could maybe say to pay for a police officer but because the police is really a police officer in the police department I don't think that they can allocate their money to the police
department even if the police department is serving the library you know it kind of gets to do so I just want to make myself I just want to understand so it can be used to create two new full-time positions but it can't be used to pay for a police officer to cover that which would be safer route because technically part of the library's funding and budget
expense and the police and a police officer would technically still be part of the police office the police department's budgets like we couldn't pull the police like the RSO was for the school department we could we couldn't have own because they are in the police budget so this this the um SRO are part
of the police department budget so in that sense and then it's funded through the schools so it's kind of like reimbursed through the schools but it's definitely a part of the police department so I think with that funding and the legality from the state behind it it might be a complication I'm not saying it's definitely not but I could see that it could be a a
pretty like a a rough loophole to get Sounds by the way everything's talking you need to have a police officer down there a trained police officer with all of this going on but so I I think I think that's the intention for the the job hosting is to have someone up to those standards and with that background but not necessarily one of our our own
maybe like a retired police officer type of yeah someone who fits the same criteria but not necessarily pulling from their work for us all right I Y thank you maybe a retired police officer would be you know interested in doing
something like that um Mr Maris you I know speak with directors of other um libraries throughout the Commonwealth has there been anything like this in other police departments and what has their solution been if you've discuss that with anybody I don't
know so um you know there's a lot of different towns around us that don't have the same issues that we have I think Mo the most comparable would be New Bedford I haven't reached out to them I could and see what they what they do for their security they have security officers like positions like this that
are part of the library Department that it's yeah it's have they have security some of them are parttime some of them are full-time it depends on the location if they have both or you know one but there are certain locations that they have security officers at all times because I think you do an excellent job
down there the library has so many services and you want people to be able to go in and utilize them and you want to have your staff working in a you know as stressfree as possible we don't get many complaints ever from the library it's quiet over there so don't think we're not thinking about you we think
about the library and how well things they run um Nick would you be able to look at into some of the concerns shared by some of us absolutely and we can get call data from the police department too if that's helpful okay but I'd like to have this on the next ordinance
committee meeting I don't want to put it off for a long time you know what I mean um as soon as you can schedule it you'll be ready okay so the next one that we schedule we can have this um brought up again because I think she you know
brings up some concerns that really need to be addressed we want to move on this so as as you know quickly as we can get back and we will because I don't know if anybody wants to move this to First reading and wait or just table it and wait till they come back what's the will of the
committee I'd like to wait just to see information so do you make a motion to well I just got a quick question oh sure so just on the state aid so is the state aid that we're talking about is just the state aid that we get on the chair sheet is that um yeah but it's it's based on the spending that they are required to
do but yeah it's just there it just goes into a sep yeah so you're meeting Yar and then because you're meeting Yar and get your certification you get some additional state aid that comes in that all flows in through the general fund though right it's not it's in a special fund it's it's the way account yep it's
the way it's been and I think it was like that New Bedford for us too I don't know I haven't read the legality on it's just kind of been the way it is so I kind of just accepted it but we can look into it I just assum they're not supposed to have to appropriate it that's I think why it's pulled out of a general fund they're not the way the legislation
reads on it is it is supposed to not require an appropriation to be spent okay I wish I thought it was just flowing into um just general fund Revenue that was coming in and then obviously I mean I'm sure you just probably at Yar right in terms of allocation yes I so I mean I
can't imagine we're significantly above that requirement no I wouldn't I wouldn't think so but um but we have been making it um and that's actually what keeps us certified as well and allowed to lend with 70 other libraries so it's important and we haven't gotten a waiver in a a long time okay y all
right I Y thank you counc reposal so this ordinance actually has two positions um to discuss it's not only the security but it's also the processing archist so I wonder if we can make a motion to split them off so that we could get some more information
on the security and then address the archist separately from this so can I I guess can I ask a question with that so it you're looking for two security positions right okay it wasn't one in one like one security and one for the uh no two security and one archist I just
want to make sure okay so um do you want to make a motion to split yeah I'll make a motion to split um the uh security officer position and the processing archivist so we can discuss them separately there's a second all in favor I
and then I'll make the further motion to table um the security the the position of security officer at the public library second all in favor I okay let's go on to the next position so the processing archist of Public Library Services uh we think that this
is really valuable because we have an entire room uh for over history and special collections uh these items are very particular in the way that they need to be handled processed cataloged a lot of them are not cataloged a lot of them are not processed and a lot of them are not access ible to the public in general um that could be anything from
directories local history um there's there's a whole lot of stuff that we have that is high value but it's not accessible to the public and we also don't have a way to get them into view those items without having a person who has the qualifications that that is able
to handle them um show them to people and also to catalog them uh ideally they would be making things digital um making digital copies of all of our historical records making them accessible by getting them online and also so not only
for our department they would start in our department um since we have a large special collections but we've realized that other departments constantly reach out to us and say we have these old records we don't know how to handle them we don't know what to do with them uh and we'd like to be able to use this
project archist to go out and and handle um and handle archiving basically different historical records of the Departments that we we have so that we have a backup of all of this information um so usually processing
archist a lot of the times when they're hired by universities they are temporary uh they might be for a semester they might be 1 to three years so that's kind of the idea that uh that we have for this position is as as needed basically
I think that we could at least have enough work for this person to do one to three years before they even touch digitizing all of our historical records uh or cataloging them or making them accessible but um at that point it is possible to to reassess whether it's
something that we want to continue in the future because a lot of processing archists are temporary positions councelor reposa thank you madam chair um so this is a new FTE then essentially so we'd be adding to it um
question to the director so in I clear to understand it's the person should hold a graduate degree so master's degree in library science yes okay and then three years of qualifier experience can you ex excuse my ignorance on this one but uh a degree in library science
what does exactly that cover so um so it's a requirement that a lot of our positions have our section head positions they require a library uh a library science degree so you can get a master's in library science with focuses on on different aspects um it could be
ethics it could be archives it could be um management so um the archival track it is actually it's something that I had gone for um so it does have specialized training and how to handle those those Collections and so you get a little bit of preservation um there's different
standards in the way that you catalog and then upload data online there's very specific um data data structures all of that kind of stuff uh that that they learn in that program so that's what would be required okay and then to the
interim CFO as far as budget concerns if this position were to be approved and hired this year do we have room to cover without a transfer of anything sort so same thing she was we were hoping to pay for it out of the local state aid so um out of that fund so there's about um we
get about 300 plus thousand a year it's kind of growing it's gone up from like two in the most recent years it was like at like 275 and it keeps going up a little bit each year so um there's at least 300,000 from this year to cover it oh W but it there has been like I said
the last couple of years um the former director wasn't using it she was she was saving it so there's a decent amount of money in there that she can use to cover this um and it's trust right now because she said it was a temporary position I think the security ones definitely make sense to bring on into the general fund
in some sort of time frame I think this one maybe would make sense to keep in this type of fund if it isn't going to become a permanent um role in the library okay and how many positions are at the library currently full times I believe it's 21 um B Park yeah B Park 21
okay so it' be 22 essentially and then if we have the security offices don't that exact number that's close between 20 and 25 fair enough that's a that's a fair Ball Park I appreciate it and these would I I would keep them separated in when uh budget time comes like in our
organizational chart outside because the intention is for state aid not from our budget fair enough I appreciate it I yield thank you Council kadim so so are we anticipating this to be temporary this position um yes in most
cases they are temp temporary um if in three years you know uh me and anyone else who who uh like say my board if they say this is really great this is a good service that we have and we're really benefiting from this and all the Departments are benefiting then it's
always something that we could extend but currently the the idea is to just take care of what we have right now um and get rid of that backlog and then and then address it again in the future so I'm just assuming if if approved you would highlight that it's potentially
temporarily temporary position not a a permanent position yes okay uh so I I did have some questions with regards to um just the education experience um my colleague my colleague asked some of those questions I I was just curious
because I'm ignorant in this as well how difficult is it going to be to find somebody with a concentration in this particular study and and it's not it's not difficult at all um there are a lot of people that come right out of their program and they're looking for a position a lot of people uh take
positions like this temporary uh for free just to get their first their first job a lot of people take internships um so a paid position is definitely something that's coveted and uh but we would want a full-time position because if we we have someone working with our
valuable collections we need them to be uh a trusted employee and we need them to work from the top to the bottom and leave us with a process that we can um that we can continue off of if they were to leave um so that I did consider maybe
um asking for internships something of that nature but in the past when the library had done that I think they had an issue with the security of the items some of the items went missing and so I didn't think that would be a good idea uh when we post for the library uh it's
unreal how many applicants we get that are qualified for those positions at a salary that's about 15,000 less that's posted here yeah okay all right I'll I'll make a recommendation to pass through first reading second second before we do that I just have a question this position is for
65 65 correct yes okay all right there's a motion um and a second all in favor I I thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you okay the next item on the agenda
item six is to convene with the city um director of City operations Corporation Council and a representative from the police department to discuss a potential find Amendment relative to illegal dumping of solid waste uh Mr
ala attorney Ramsey and Sergeant yeah demoted you just got demoted deputy chief I'm sorry deputy chief well for years I called him Sergeant now he jumps up on me good to
have you here sir pleasure to be here I thought my mind was failing me for a second said wait a minute no with that I don't know he's listening to all of our library stuff so that was good I'm glad you're
here all right um one of the issues that we have been presented with and this came from the committee on health and environmental Affairs and Council reposer chairs that committee so this was put in through that committee I'm going to give the floor to him for him
to explain uh this resol mad um so one of the conversations we had and it kind of stemmed from the conversation of the issue in the Copa cut but as we were discussing it we realized and after talking to the clerk that there's
actually two separate ordinances that deal with the copicut in particular and dumping but the general dumping that goes on in the city and I think my colleagues on that committee agreed that the fines are too low regardless and it it kind of almost incentivizes people to
dump junk somewhere because they'll take the risk and pay 300 bucks or actually dispose of it as we've discussed before properly um so we're actually I'm going to go to you Mr Oliver first on the fines in general versus what it actually
cost to dump some of these materials and you know can we kind of close that Gap a little bit to hopefully decentivize people from dumping stuff in public parks and streets and what have you so Al Al direct of City operations um yeah so we so that $300
fine that's that is definitely not um high enough per se if you're going to if you're going to throw out some tires if you're going to throw some uh CD which is construction debris you're going to that that could go between now I mean between here and in new Beford
you're talking about probably about four $450 $500 easily and then the trip with the you know the type of vehicle so there is there is a cost to getting rid of that waste absolutely okay so you feel that uh in your experience $300 is
clearly way too low in my experience it definitely is and in your past life have you seen um past life past positions have you seen higher fines than this not really no because I mean municipalities tend to try to keep it
status quo and and unless there's a brought to a committee like this then it's generally staying in that in that um dollar figure okay uh deputy chief if I don't know if you have excuse me this knowledge at all but do you not have a sense of how many people have been given citations for IL
legal dumping so we usually go the criminal route which is uh Mass General uh chapter 270 section 16 it has a little bit more teeth in it as far as fines but also uh has uh sanctions in which that individual would be responsible for the also the cost of
getting rid of what they've dumped so um obviously it's a bifurcated effort you have the copaa area so we have environmental police officers that Patrol there obviously with the concerns of protecting our watershed area and obviously the the bio Reserve out there
uh but obviously we have concerns in the city uh with areas uh you know President Avenue recently uh we had people dumping behind Rocky's Ace Hardware in that area so uh clearly the criminal route for us is the most advantageous for the city uh
for the result uh as far as my research through municip IP alties we are on the higher end of most municipalities I think to to uh Dr ala's Point uh a lot of it is become status quo I've seen as low as a $100 for illegal dumping but I
also don't know within that municipality if their practice is to go the criminal route which is typically what we do uh our most recent criminal activity uh happened or arrest happened in December just before Christmas I was on William S canning Boulevard up in that area uh as
far as copaa ity we did have one last August that we uh prosecuted uh but as far as most recently the most recent complaints on President okay Mr Rumsey do you have any thoughts on any recommendations on this I mean on
the legal side I'd say uh most of my thoughts actually Echo deputy chief wh um and much of what he said I think the littering ordinances is kind of written towards somebody who might toss a cup out of a window um which I think 300 is more than sufficient for something like
that um but there are other avenues like for example if you throw a tire you know I think there's some discretion that's not exactly littering I think they can be charged criminally which I think has the the the largest teeth but you know there's also the ability to charge the
actual cost involved so for example if you find somebody who dumps a mattress charge them the 300 plus whatever the the mattress cost is which I know is raised I'm not sure exactly what it is right now um you know if you dump two tires I think you could easily um hit
them with two $300 fines you know it's there's I wouldn't say there's any discrepancy here but obviously if you throw out a bag of trash maybe that's one item but if you throw two tires I would suggest that's two 300 other fines but the truth is littering is one thing I think dumping is generally charged
CRI so would would it be helpful to maybe add a another article to the ordinances that deal with pumping per se and then kind of attach that to M General
law with an attached fine on the municipality side well I think generally um you know from our perspective I mean the DA's office clearly can find somebody as part of the criminal disposition but I think the problem is you know I don't I don't think you want to hit them with both a
civil and a criminal I'd be perfectly happy with any dumping just gets charged criminally and the city doesn't receive the fin that I we can always when you're charged criminally the DA's office um should be seeking restitution for any victims so
um you know I'm not sure how many people get charged for for dumping but when they do it would be helpful if if the city's aware of it they can file paperwork with the DA's office saying what the actual cost to the city was so any kind of plea bargain or any kind of deal made usually would include full
restitution to the victim so uh deputy chief I don't know if you're aware um some months ago there was some dumping at father travaso Park and it is my understanding that those individuals were found did you go the criminal route in that particular situation okay we usually always go the
criminal route I think when you speak to 2642 the activities prohibited on public Watershed lands surrounding Copa that was to kind of give the environmental police another tool on their tool belt to enforce things like open campfires things that would put the watershed area
at risk for you know forest fire uh you can even see there it speaks to the use of live bait things along those lines which sometimes they're covered in cmrs which the municipal police officers can't enforce okay fair enough point out you do see there's a five up to a $5,000
fine for Copa cut right yes and and and that's why when we when I was doing the research too realized that there is so much more teeth in the Copa cut obviously for the reasons it is versus just general littering and dumping um so that that was good and I think I would make an argument this has a lot more
teeth and protects more I would still argue that you know we could give it a little more teeth on on the fine sense my bigger concern is actually just the littering itself um but I'm going to yield for now let my colleague speak and I'll touch base back on this thank you you want go um councelor Samson National
Grid came before us about a month or two ago and stated that they were going to be installing cameras up there license plate reading up in the reservation has that happened not yet they haven't they haven't started the project yet but they are planning that we did hear that at the last minute last meeting that they were
planning to do that has the police department gotten any recently in the last week uh we've had conversations around the type of equipment that we're looking for um clearly they're they're moving in a direction to purchase the cameras so they're I will say that that that was a volunteering part right of
their request it's not something that was required of them no but they also wanted their polls and lines to be so you know they made that nice uh for that to happen so I will say that um who's going to be monitoring that is that the police department that monitors yeah
it'll be part of our network of cob operation cameras that we have do they have cameras up there now I'm not going to speak to where we do and where we don't but uh we're always watch so it would be an added it would so this would it could add I it Mak sense okay you know what I yield the question I have on this uh is
if we could charge up to $5,000 who came up with the determination that it was going to be $300 like how did that happen the ordinance says we could find up to $5,000 and that that ordinance was
specific to the Watershed land surrounding the Copa the copaa reservoir so it says it in here you know the copicut dam Spillway pump house um all of this area and it says violations of
this section may be enforced via non-criminal dispos disposition and fines and or criminal violations including fines up to $5,000 I mean who makes that determination of what the fine is going to
be I think it gives whoever uh writes the ticket some discretion I mean if it's somebody doing a legal fishing um it might be different than someone who drives their truck back there and and drops off a mattress I mean I I I don't know I don't think any of this has been touched the five
years I've been here but my guess is the littering came first and then they added the Copa cut after that that's that would just be my guess it depends on how egregious it does get um someone has that ability to to reach that $5,000
threshold depending on how severe that is adjacent to the uh the Watershed or bio Reserve so there's there's that opportunity um and someone has to make that decision is there something that this committee is looking to as far as
tightening this up to be more specific with what type of dumping versus you know somebody who is um you know bringing their dogs within a certain amount of the shoreline and somebody who's going to be uh dropping
off construction material because that that's a little bit different and if you're going to go and dump and figure if I get caught I'll pay $300 and it's non-criminal well that's
less expensive than me going and bringing it to New Bedford to dump do you know what I mean it just seems that sometimes we have ordinances that don't really work like when we wanted to put litter barrels around uh you know
drive-throughs just to help with some of the litter we'll know because if they litter we can just find them for littering but if we don't have the resources to go out and find people as they're littering around the city obviously somebody is because everyone complains on how dirty the city is so
you know we really need to start enforcing some of these so people take it serious did you have something to say well iade just in line with what you're you're saying I I would just say you know the folks on the table did mention so we've got essentially three different
things we've got a criminal action that's really for the illegal dumbing right so I don't know that there's any changes that need to be made to that because I think that's probably as they mentioned the strongest um the littering is you know I think it is what it states you know somebody's driving in their car and they throw out you know a bag of
McDonald's that's that's a $300 fine right and then when you get to the the cobut you have this I I would suggest that you know maybe we might as a as a committee want to refer it to Corporation councel because I think um not having a fee a fine schedule that
that really kind of articulates what that like to the point of you know it's $1,000 for this it's 2,000 for this that once it goes to court you know it's just going to get thrown out so the enforceability is probably not going to be there um so that that's the only thing I would I would say that we need to to do I think outside of that I think
we have enough um tools on the tool belt to really kind of handle a vary varying um aspects of either litter legal dumping things of that nature but I would agree with the deputy I think everything that comes through is dumping illegal dumping should be charged criminally I agree the first offense uh
through the law is up to $5,500 and fines and then they cover the cost of the materials that they dumped to be disposed of properly but I think to your point counselor uh the risk that people run to get rid of construction materials tires is a cheaper risk than it is to
actually pay to get rid of it so right I know we've had incidents where we've caught people that were kind of a straw to someone saying hey can you get rid of this for me I'm going to pay you this much money go dump it somewhere and that's typically where we're seeing some of that activity activity come from is
uh uh using that as a way of earning cash for somebody that might be hard up so they don't even know where the stuff is coming from and they're trying to get rid of it um so with that said we always go the criminal route because arbitrarily the judge is going to determine what the fine is um but we've
had uh dual charges before so to the corporation council's Point we've charged criminally and then also put in in the bylaw violations in there just as extra teeth in it to uh ensure that something was either going to come back to the city or happen to that individual
that violated the law thank you I appreciate that councila yeah I just need a clarification to attorney Rumsey um so we have Article 1 Section 15 is the general penalty which is the $300 for any general offense according to
city code correct and then the litter is separate correct but I mean everything goes through 40 now I mean honestly that U 115 it's it probably is outdated in the sense of anything that could possibly be
under 40u once we accept 40u that's the route we take okay I I I can't say for certain that 115 would apply to anything right now but I know I I've just I mean it's left there just as a catch all in case something somehow doesn't fall in the 40 you okay so I guess to council
kade's point maybe we should look at and maybe refer this back to you to maybe look at um changing this up if this doesn't really apply maybe we need to clean this up attach a fee schedule to council kem's Point um and then I would also add if we get down to that road
about the littering piece I would advocate for a higher fine than $300 I think it's too low so I don't know if that's something that you would be able to to research and come back to the committee with yeah I'd be happy to look at it my only request is that if if you have a fine that you would suggest I
mean suggest it I can I can include whatever um this ordinance committee would like I could definitely tighten it up for example make it clear that for each item you uh discard improperly it's the $300 fund um would apply to each
action uh I don't think it's as clear as it could be here and I think we could also make clear that it's also going to be the actual cost of the city will be added to any fine um but that's easy enough to DOD be happy to look at it yeah I think I think that's the the good way to go about it clean it up a little
bit you get I do c I just think that this one that's General penalties it goes to a lot of other section A lot of other uh things in the city if you could read some of those the general penalties for the the um for the
ordinance so the city website when you search it comes up with uh all the typ times that it's essentially listed so um it's listed under chapter 14 businesses for charitable solicitation it's listed under chapter Administration under Department of City operations it's
listed under uh chapter 14 businesses for door-to-door solicitation it's listed under chapter 38 for historical preservation um so there's various chapter 62 Solid Waste there's various sections that refer to that generally but the ticketing will all go under 40 years since we have that procedure in
place I just think it needs to the Penalty needs to be stiffer but we need to enforce it if we sit here and say this is going to be the stiff penalty and even if it's going to going to be criminal if we don't have the Manpower out there to enforce it sometimes that's frustrating for me personally that we
have these ordinances we're not enforcing them and then people call Us com complaining I mean I know up in the Copa Reservoir you have two environmental um officers there now but there are more coming on board yeah
potentially I believe another three another that will be the highest Manpower we've had in that unit in a long time good so that might help and a lot of people are using um the reservation area the Copa cut because the water department um and Mr laasia they've put in trails and done a
lot of other things there so more people are frequenting we need to make sure uh Al are there any signs up there would you do it would the water department do it some signs up there that say no dumping like coming in coming out there's no signs yeah Mr laier is in
charge of that so that's that's their their area if we would request that they put up some signs you know dumping is illegal here I mean there's there's there's definitely dumping no no dumping signs up there but but do we want more that's the question yeah I don't think
there's a lot because I took a ride through to see and I was shocked that we didn't they're not really visible right um so maybe we need to look at that too so people are aware of it so uh attorney Rumsey if you looked
at this and tweaked this with um with what other communities have if you want to meet with us do you need information from us on what we think which way we're going I'm not going to look at it if if you have any suggestions I'll listen to them and incorporate them if I can but
otherwise I I'd be happy to look at it and uh just tighten up a little bit I know this hasn't been looked at in a while and frankly it's probably a good time because it's a very diff I mean littering in itself is a very difficult crime to um to catch but with dash cam
cameras becoming more and more prevalent I imagine I can I can definitely imagine where citizens are sending me the videos and then we can start taking them that way does anyone have anything to add um to attorney Ramsey when he tries to review this ordinance or taking it up no
thank you so much attorney Ramsey um thank you Deputy Chief or and thank you Mr ala motion to table motion to table second all in favor oh we we have to refer it refer to Corporation councel
second so motion to refer to Corporation councel and there's a second all in favor I I thank you do I have a motion toour because motion to ajour then there a second all in favor I thank you
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