my over my over hey Hey hey hey hey hey Hey Black We're coming back
Hey hey hey Committee on ordinance and legislation come to order If the clerk can call the role here Samson here
Um pursuant to the open meeting law any person may make an audio or visual recording of this public meeting or may transmit this meeting through any medium Attendees are therefore advised that such recordings and transmissions are being made whether perceived or unpersceived by those present and deemed
acknowledged and permissible Has anyone signed up for citizen input okay Item number two approval of the March 4th Motion to approve Second Minutes There's a motion and a second
All in favor i Item number three corporation council to establish the right-of-way fees for fiber optic cable installation Hold the discussion You coming down oh
Um which one is Dan on he's on this one Okay I thought so It's why I went to put you first Thank you Trying man Trying Thanks I haven't worked this cast out yet Just for the people at home to know
could you just give your name and office position sure Alan Rumsy Corporation Council Dan Aguia director of engineering and planning You want to give us a heads up on this either of you sure Um Okay So my involvement I mean Mr
Aguar has done um a lot of the work for the permitting for this things but I I've spoken with Mr Aguar as well as the city clerk to try to figure out what would be fair and reasonable fees associated with use of the cities right away So just in a nutshell um you know these companies come in and they want to
use city property to um build their infrastructure Um I think having fiber internet in the city will be a great thing for the city of Fall River It's something we're in support of Um but I most municipalities have a fee structure
set up in order to use it right away So as I said in speaking with the city clerk for example um you know trying to figure out what a reasonable application permit fee would be These are the numbers we came up with Um there's fees associated Um for example if they put a
a box or a cabinet in the city right away there's a certain fee There's a different fee which is more if they get permission from the city to put that same box or cabinet not in the cities right away So for example if they wanted to put it just in the corner of a park things of that nature I mean there there are cost and fees associated with this
thing with these things So this is what I've come up with As I said I've looked into um what other municipalities have done Um as much as I could find out there spoken with all the people that are involved with it I mean uh Mr Aguar you see it right here is you know he's more knowledgeable on what they need to
do and what they're trying to do So his information is really what I used to help build this fee structure and he was he was a lot of help in me developing this So just a little bit of back history of where we've gone with this Um city administrator Aken was the lead
dealing with all of these fiber companies that were coming to the city and looking into installing We probably sat and spoke with at least six of them Every one of them had a different method for construction Every one of them had a different method for the areas of the
city that they wanted to service Um our concern was that we should be finding one and this is beyond the ordinance but that we should be finding one provider that wants to provide service to everyone not just the ones that are the easiest for them to serve that serves
their monetary structure Um and we were not at a point yet to get there We do have one provider um who was a little bit further along than everyone else and is ready for submission to a petition to the council uh to the clerk's office
like National Grid does for a pole or lines or any utility like that So we looked at how can we capture the same types of monies that we require those other utility providers to to come up with So we felt the best way to do it
was rather than create an entirely new ordinance was to modify the existing ordinance that deals with poles conduit and things of that nature just by simply adding certain words like cable wire fiber and cabinets So the ordinance that
you see drafted in front of you is really just an expanded version of what the the existing one does So it's it is under section A110-1 under chapter 2 administration fees 2-453 subsection 26 which actually
didn't even have a title So um Allan did put in a title use of city's right of ways for cable wire fiber cabinets etc And you'll see in here that the majority of them are currently the existing fees Um and then we added some additional as
we get further down the end of the proposals Something we thought was important to add here and I know councelor Pereira was running lead on this is when we end up with a provider that has unused equipment whether they be polls cabinets that they just leave
behind Um so the very last fee I we have included a fee uh to be acred daily for when they leave a pole that's not being utilized or a cabinet or things of that nature So that's something that that should be contemplated And as Allen
stated in this we've also included a section that deals with not only right of way but city-owned properties as well Um because we find like with the proposal that we do have there was a cabinet being proposed around Rugles Park Well the cabinet that they proposed
encompassed the entire grass area outside of the paved surface although we have no sidewalk there right now If we wanted to go and put sidewalks around uh Rugles Park this cabinet would impede our ability to do
that So maybe it made sense Well let's move the cabinet back 10 feet if we can get the parks to approve it and have it be out of the right of way So they have submitted plans to us which we've been going back and forth with asking them for revisions show us where underground utilities are and and meeting all of
those requirements because some of them a lot of it is just hanging lines off existing poles which a lot of them we don't own the polls right they're jointly owned polls between National Grid and Verizon or AT&T whoever owns the polls So we have to make sure that they have an agreement with those
providers to be able to utilize the poles But in about 30% of it it was underground installation So now we're dealing with street opening permits that are governed by my office And now we're looking at streets that are 5-year moratorium streets One of them was uh what's the
restoration going to be for sidewalks and most of the work is in sidewalks except for where they cross the street So just coming up with rules and regulations of how we would allow them to enter the street But it all comes back to their petition to the council for the use of the right of way which you you were all very used to dealing
with but just not for this type of a user yet So as far as dealing with one provider really not we're not at that point yet but we are at the point where we do have one provider ready to submit a petition that you that you will all
have to approve Can you say who that provider is tilson is is the company Yeah Now when they're doing fiber optics Mr Agia does that also um have the ability to have um wireless connection
well it is And so what happens is every one of them like I said is a different type of provider Some just want to come in and provide the infrastructure and then they in turn lease that space out to other providers who actually provide
the high-speed internet So they would own all of the equipment the wires the cabinets and then they will entertain bids from multiple companies Okay if you want to come provide this section of Fall River with highspeed internet we can allow you to use our
infrastructure There are some that do infrastructure and service So there's any the variables change Some are a combination of the two Some are only strictly one way or the other So we we've been dealing with how do we deal
with one type of provider There's also the option of the city could take it upon themselves to install all of the infrastructure but at that point you know it takes that's a lot of money a lot of time but there are a lot of smaller communities that are moving in that direction I don't think the city
could take that on because the profit would be the city's profit for at the end of the day Yeah And it if we're looking at a 30-year plan and we had the time to in and the money to invest in creating infrastructure just like water lines right we own our own water lines and we sell our own water We don't want to have that discussion tonight about
water But similar right we could be the utility provider that provides the ability for highspeed internet But I don't think we're at that at that point or ability to provide that So tonight the discussion really is just about what should we charge these companies for using our right of way And if I can add
one thing to that um so the FCC somewhat recently chimed in on small cell wireless facilities which is just kind of the 5G that we're used to that's being built all over the city And you know there's fights all over the country about what is and was not a reasonable fee But in that FCC decision they
basically said that for $270 for um annual fee for a poll I mean I guess my point is some of these numbers in here or what the FCC said that um they are reasonable These are the numbers that they'll deem reasonable They're not even going to litigate anything that
these are the maximum charge So that's why some of these numbers are in there It's it's what the FCC used for small cell wireless facilities which we adopted once that ruling came down you know the the so what this did in that case is just make the same fees available for fiber or any other thing
that comes in any technology So we didn't want to limit it to just small cell wireless facilities We wanted to be a more expansive definition So anything that looks like that would have the same fees Now this this council doesn't have to
approve for example uh a cabinet in the parks I mean um we can't be unreasonable withholding our approvals but if there's anything the council doesn't like you can deny it Um if it's you know burdensome or in the parks or the
historic section comes before you just like it does with National Grid And so they had sent in an initial plan set that dealt with I don't know maybe 10 acres of land and all the homes that fall within that area
That's a lot for the council to look at and decide you know So we had asked them multiple times well I think we need to break these up street by street and we can do multiple hearings in one night so we can be as efficient as possible but we think the information needs to be provided in a manner that the council
can understand because I can sit and look at 200 sheets in a plan set and understand what they're doing that doesn't mean that that you have the ability and the amount of time that you have to look at it to look at every street and what are the impacts whether it be above ground underground and and
what we're dealing with So we've been slowly getting more information out of them to make the petition once it gets to you a little bit easier to digest and deal with it you know in a regimented way not just a blanket approval Councelor Kadim So the annual fees if we
approve this we're going to be charging Comcast and well I guess not Comcast because they're National Grid poles So National Grid would be charged $27 for every pole that's in the city Well there is an annual fee now Whether or not it gets collected is something else I don't know that because
Allan and I have had this discussion Why is that i don't know That's I that's that's beyond my my department or Allen's department We're still looking into um whether or not existing um cable and things of that nature get grandfathered in Okay I think that's the
question you're asking It is Yeah Because I'm just curious because that's I mean that's a everyone should be treated the same way Yeah And the the the 10-year Comcast contract I don't think deals with the uh what you're talking about No And I would I guess I would argue with Comcast that that's um
it's a pass through to the subscribers So the subscribers pay for it not Comcast is it's not profit sharing from from Comcast Correct Although our contract I don't think deals with uh polls with the polls right so it may be another revenue source for
companies like Comcast but I'm not prepared to to say yes or no at this point And and it's not everyone that's on that poll pays the poll It's the owner of the poll right so it's just like personal property tax but it just happens to be on your personal property So it's there I know So I don't think
there's an ability to go backwards and start charging these people But this is the opportunity to now start acrewing that moving forward for any any new materials that get um constructed like a cabinet And I've I've explained to them
it it appears with the proposal that they've just sent that they're not proposing any new poles It's a lot of underground stuff handholes vaults stuff like that But again that takes up space in the right of way that precludes other utilities from utilizing the right away
So there should be a fee associated with it Hanging hanging lines off of an existing pole is relatively simple Or adding more equipment to it but then we end up getting these utility poles that have a lot of stuff on them And then when they when they're done with it we
want to make sure that it comes down including the pole itself when it gets replaced and it's not just strapped to the new pole waiting for the other provider to take all their equipment off before they take down the pole That was my only question I yield Well we've
tried to get other companies to come forward and we have to give them a three-month notice Yep For other um sources Now with fiber optics this is not wireless though No no because I know that in Texas they
had I was reading up on you know having this in front of me on knowing a little bit about internet Um and they are doing wireless So they put certain things in certain places but you would still need a modem in your house with with this
type of equipment Technically it's wireless from your laptop to the modem that's in your living room But um I think I think what she's saying is that they're starting to put Wi-Fi connections on poles on the poles themselves so that there are because beyond beyond the installation of lines in your right of way now you have that
many connections from that you from that infrastructure to the homes themselves because one of the problems is that when we had done internet when they had done the cable contract that was a long time ago they had a public hearing years before and all of a sudden I asked the
mayor about the cable oh We just signed that What do you mean you signed it we didn't even have a public hearing We did have a public hearing but it was what five years before it was before I started So there you go So that was really stupid I hate to say it but that was stupid If you're going to sign a at least let people come in and talk about
it because the public hearing was so long ago And if people I get calls all the time especially from seniors complaining how much their bill has gone up And if you just want internet because you can buy I don't know Roku box to put on or you can buy something else or you
can pay for Hulu or or Tulb or whatever those other you know those channels are Then you just want internet Well they charge you a crazy amount of money I think um T-Mobile is doing it now for $29 a month just for cable and it's 5G I
mean just for internet and it's 5G Um so I'd really like to see wireless I hate to see us hanging more wires but if that's the technology that's available at this time And are you only going to look for one or if somebody else wanted to come in well let's be clear We didn't
look for this at all No they came to this is this is strictly ordinance Who comes in where they service that's a different argument okay which I to be honest with you I am not comfortable at all with the direction that that it was
heading in but I don't know if I don't know if as a municipality if we can say no to them you know dealing with department of public utilities um oh and they just do such a great yard department of public I understand that so I honestly it's not I'll be the first
to tell you when I don't know something and I do not know this this was not again this was city administrators Akens deal where he was courting multiple companies Um but again no one came to say we want to service the entire city This is our plan for the next 10 years
Um because I questioned well if that's the case then there should be some type of a bond or shity that they're held to for providing it to the entire city They don't come in and they service the 20% that they want That's an easy installation and then the rest of the city gets nothing So so there needs to
be some protection to the city and to the taxpayers that they will be provided the same service Um agree Yeah I want to make clear to Rumsy did did who's picking up on this now meeting with these companies somebody in your office I would assume Well yes and no I mean I
was present for at least one or two maybe three sales pitches There's probably been six or seven or eight Um and what I can tell you is they all have the pros and cons and all of them are going to be extremely beneficial to the city I mean I live in the city I have the same issues that everybody has that
you were speaking about The speeds at the prices that their sales pitch are suggesting are reasonable Um it's going to be everybody's going to be thrilled to have anything So any of these companies would be great to have it in So I said their pros and cons the one that is currently um either that's
pushing hard right now their position and I think it's accurate is you know they don't necessarily want to enter into any agreement with the city to provide coverage to the south end or the Flint or anything else They just know that the law requires us to
give them uh reasonable accommodation and they're just going to do it and they're going to start where they want to start and they're going to see if they make money If they make money they're going to expand They they say they're going to expand throughout the whole city but they also call this their pilot right so this is their pilot I think even are they in western Mass i
can't remember This one may be in Western Mass or maybe this may be their first location in Mass And what they love about Fall River is the fact that they know that Fall River has the Comcast monopoly for internet So the first one in to compete with Comcast is
going to do quite well is the theory Um so it's a rush to get in because what's the chance a competitor will come in and be the second fiber or the third fiber Um I believe and don't quote me on this but I think this particular company's uh business plan is to let up to two or
three competitors buy it from them So Fall River will have a choice We won't be stuck with just one more person Um but you know competition breeds better prices right so who's taking over now to deal with these companies when they come in so right now there have been no
discussions with any companies since administrator Akens left Okay So I think it's important for us to figure out and and we had a discussion today I did with with Annne O'Neal um about how we are going to deal with new companies when
they approach us Is it to be a team effort i asked where we were at with getting a new administrator Um I'm just sitting here thinking now I don't know if we have or could have the ability to hire an outside consultant to deal with
this that that's all they deal with Right Right Where it's no one's expertise in this building or even administrator Akens Um maybe reaching out and getting a consultant to handle this is the right way to do it I don't even know if those kind of consultants
are out there but that might that might seem like the right thing to do but somebody needs to make the determination Do we want 10 different equipment owners right or do we want someone that's going to do the entire city i think most of these providers
have actually reached out to Tyler first I could be wrong on that but my I think that's where it initially originated that Tyler uh and Tea in the IT department and Seth were working on it often will field it and at the time he would then discuss it with the city administrator and then tasks were kind
of handed out as need be I mean I've been asked to look at of a couple legal issues u but I wouldn't say that I've been running with it at all I was asked to look at the implications to the right of way construction permitting and stuff like that So everybody's had their own little niche but we've all somewhat been
involved in the general discussion but I can tell you I haven't been involved in enough of it to say that I'm comfortable with taking the lead on it moving forward Council just real quick Dan you you mentioned Tillison That's one TS Uh is that the company that you're talking
about that would take would be in charge of the entire city of for this right now they are they they they are chomping at the bit to submit their proposal to the city clerk's office to be heard by you Now who who are the other companies similar to I don't remember their names off the top of my head but I can send
you what all of those names were because when you look them all up there are none no there there are none from Massachusetts like these are all companies from most of them are from down south and most of them are used to dealing with wide open spaces that
aren't city streets Um and so we had one provider that really wanted to look at they show us on a map and when I sat with them I said "Well threequarters of what you just showed me on the map is the bio reserve." So they it's it's odd that I question I'm like "Have you done
any homework before you you've come and have this discussion like they want the easy areas you know up the north end of the city where things are wide open and not but this group Tilson um the area is immediately downtown So the most difficult area to provide it like I said
around Rugles Park Um this is the area that they're looking at And I don't know whether that's just based upon sheer volume of people Um and that's the way that they go Um I'm not privy to them finding out why they decided this area And and Alan you mentioned that you did
some research with other municipalities as far as the fee structure goes Do you uh but do we also did you go as far as also seeing what other uh cities have actually um taken part in this particular project with fiber optics and
if they have have they what what's the um you know the general opinion that the uh that the f that that what what we're thinking of doing um like how did it work out for the that particular municipality as to how it worked out I I
don't really know that I have a good answer to that But um question No no no You you face it fine I just don't know if I have a great answer I mean I was looking mostly at the fee structure So for example I think it was Boston that was more based upon I was looking for my notes I know what
happened somewhere Uh more of a a 5% fee Um the problem with that is for some FCC rules Is this what you're looking for the email that you sent that that's also Yeah that's a Will that help yeah So Boston had the greater
15,000 or 5% of gross revenue which frankly the company's probably like that because 5% when they're when they're you know capital is probably difficult to come by when you're starting out Um so but the problem is of course 5%
um might not be allowable because it has to be based upon a reasonable fee not a based upon a portion of their profit if that makes sense So New Jersey had the linear foot idea which I think works better because it it's it's also
somewhat based upon their expansion You know if if they start small their fees aren't going to be so high Um but it it's based it's a I think it's a reasonable thing not based upon their profit margins but you know there's different fee structures I've looked at in Virginia Colorado I mean I have an overview here you're happy to look at
here You know how it played out I don't really know but you're happy to share this with you There's Well it's the beginning stages here So I mean but I think what you what Dan just mentioned about is a consultant that's I think we should definitely look into that I'm sure there's plenty of consultants that
have expertise in that world See what happens is all of our fees in areas So there isn't actually an ordinance for the installation of poles in the right of way We just happen to have a fee schedule that captures it So do we
create a a true ordinance that points you in the direction of the fee schedule like many of our other ordinances do you want to put in a curb opening It explains an ordinance There's an ordinance for putting in a driveway that's 16 ft wide and it points you in the direction of the fee schedule for what the fee is associated with that We
don't have an actual ordinance for the installation of these types of utilities in a right of way So whether it's too late to do that I don't know And that's a discussion that we've had is this this company is ready to submit I don't think we can say no
Can we hold them to some fee schedule these are all questions And you're well I just say for the consulting just just to make sure you're aware you know for example this company there's not a whole lot that we could provide consulting for
There's they're they're not asking our opinion They're asking for your permission to allow them to use the cities right away And that's where we where we are I mean other companies that have had specific questions you know I think the administration has found an
answer to for them Um I know some companies came in and said they were going to build 80% underground and had no idea that you know the amount of ledge in Fall River and they disappeared real fast once we told them to launch There's one company that does micro milling about three inches down which is
basically just a blade cut and they lay it down in in something that narrow um not taking into account frost and Thor and so there's I think they're out of North Carolina right probably I think so So he said it's been it sounds like a great plan And when I say consultant
when I say consultant it's to look at not ordinance Yeah but city as a whole right how to implement fiber right across the city And is it okay for us to have 10 different providers or 10
different installers of you know hard structure um that that I don't know So basically the fee structure that we have before us is one that attorney Ramsey has looked into and the FCC said these are fair We wouldn't get challenged that
we're overcharging or or Correct Correct And we're just trying to make that definition that it's not just for small cell wireless facilities that have infrastructure right away It should apply to everybody that's has infrastructure in our right away So again what what you see as proposed
ordinance look at what the existing ordinance is Yeah it's here We have and and the the dollar amounts are just about the same All we're doing is adding in language and we we made that Yeah purposeful to let's just change or
include the equipment that this company needs in the existing ordinance rather than rewrite an ordinance We're just we're just covering their type because we don't mention fiber in the in the existing ordinance for small cell wireless So it's really the small cell
wireless fee schedule but now we're just going to include Yeah And we have added like cabinets I mean obviously I apologize but I have to get downstairs Motion to pass through first reading Second to go All in favor i There's a motion and a second All in favor Thank you very much Thank you Mr Aguia Thank
you It'll be interesting to see how this goes on It it'll be great if and when it gets built and I hope more than one gets built Item number four is proposed ordinance
traffic handy uh handicap parking Motion for emergency preamble Second The first and a second Roll call please You may hang up Roll call You okay touch my phone Uh yes Sorry
Yes Yes Samson Chair Yes Motion pass through all readings Second All in favor i Item number five miscellaneous traffic handicap parking removals on Broad Street and Osborne Street Motion pass
first reading Second All in favor i Item number six needs to be uh lifted Motion to lift Is there a second second All in favor i If we could have the building inspector
and community development Oh sit down Got a new one Um attorney Ramsey has already stated who he is A few gentlemen just for people watching Leon director of community development Glenn Hathaway building commissioner city of for river
Mr Hathaway if you want to take it away with the rooming houses and what you've seen or or corporation council somebody Yeah we'll let Corporation I'd rather have him speak first if you have questions than I can that's fine Yeah I I mean I'll start Um Okay I think Glenn's going
to have a better overview than I do but um you know there's recent case law out there I'm not sure if this the council is aware of it Came down March 28th of this year Um BAK realy versus city of Pittsburgh dealing with sober houses specifically Um which is helpful I mean
it's the most reasonable decision I've I've read on sober houses maybe ever But in a nutshell what's been happening across New Bedford Fall River and other places is that sober houses have basically said that the zoning laws don't apply to them
Um so there was some kind of idea if we needed to tighten up their lodging house rules Um because we're for example sober houses were saying they didn't require sprinklers and we were suggesting they're more like lodging house they did require sprinkler systems Um what the court case essentially said is that
municipalities are free to define what a family is as long as it's a constitutional definition I think in Fall River it's more than five people Is that correct Glenn yes Uh more than five unrelated people or less than five unrelated people would be considered a family So but what the court case says
is one municipalities can define family and two that uh sober house or any other um lodging for disabled people Um if they fit the definition of family then you can't discriminate them You would have to treat them like any other um
definition of family But if they don't fit the definition of family then you would treat them like a boarding or lodging house that does not have a disability So finally we have concrete authority that says that sober houses can't just come in and do whatever they want Uh they're going to be treated
whether like a family or a lodging house depending on the size and whether they fit that definition of family So I have spoken with Glenn about this about you know whether he thought whether we needed a specific ordinance as to lodging houses because most municipalities even like Fitsburg this case it was Fitsburg they don't have
ordinances that deal with it They have more I mean I have it here It's regulations and guidelines It's more I think it's the the like this is the board of health lodging house regulations They don't have specific ordinances and you know I would defer to Glenn on whether or not
he thinks we need an ordinance um or whether we're okay with the way we are Milford has one too for boarding houses because lots of people were living in one apartment that were not related And I think you've had a couple um
situations Glenn where people have purchased homes and then taking a double parlor let's say and putting two more bedrooms there So now you've got five bedrooms in one apartment and people are paying $400 or $500 for that room with a
community kitchen and community bathroom and we were having people stepping stone Catholic social services with moving people in but then they didn't know one another There were fights and there were two of them that happened that I'm aware of One on Peekom and one on Tuck Tucker
or Tuttle Tuttle Tucker Tucker So there's a major difference Let's let's start with I think sober homes Okay Um sober homes is
a five and under group of people and usually there is a house monitor that is um monitoring the daily activities of a group of people that need to be monitored uh in order to become sober
whether it be alcohol or drug addiction And sober homes has a I'm going to call it a rule of thumb You stay five and under because you beat a lot of the necessary codes that have
been implemented with lodge hosts So you stay five and under Um in in reference to the house that you're referring to Um so they assume that they can take an apartment house three family and they assume that they can add another bedroom
and make it a fourbedroom and that's legal Uh as a sober home Um again it's five and under And they succeed in that mission But in order to I look at them sober homes um they have to be registered with
the state agency And I don't I I don't know the name of them but there's an agency that acknowledges strictly sober homes and uh they're certified through that agency and it's just an agency in the state uh in
in it's master something And I I I don't quote me on the on the uh the organization but um if they are they follow their guidelines and their rules pretty strict and usually uh there's no
not many problems with a sober home Uh we recently uh last year the code changed for sober homes uh the code changed for people that um have a disability in the sense that uh they're incapable of
self-preservation So at one point in time um all of these houses whether it be single family um if you had a sober home or a or and it was not a family all by name by blood
marriage so on and so forth uh then you had to put a sprinkler system in it They had to put a fire alarm system in it and it had to be handicap accessible Uh the code has relinquished the sprinkler system for the sober home community uh
with five and under So the uh and and some of it even falls back on to uh people with a disability such as uh convolescent uh incapable of self preservation Uh People Inc has many houses
uh in the community here that they've had to spend thousands of dollars and put sprinkler systems in because of what they are uh incapable of self-preservation But some of that as long as they hold to the five uh people
in a house uh they can uh uh not face the rules and regulations of a sprinkler system They still have to have the fire alarm As far as uh people uh again sober homes they're doing it
They've done I I've heard of a couple of places throughout the city So they do it and I've closed a couple of places Uh they buy a three family and they take all three floors and they put so many people in there Um they're being monitored by somebody an a social worker
of some type with an agency Uh there's been individuals that tried to do this and they weren't successful because they weren't taking care of the tenants that they were putting in there and they ended up subsequently I closed them down Um if you recall there was a three
family on Roberson Street that had a fire Uh one of the individuals got mad with the people running the place and set the house on fire So um some of them have a disability that is above and beyond Um
that house closed down because they weren't uh part of MASH I think it is Uh they weren't part of MASH They weren't part of anything And uh he was just scalping $750 uh off of each person he rented a
bedroom to uh in the house So he was making an enormous amount of money But uh I closed him down Anyways um sober homes is one thing lodgeing houses is another Uh we have still several lodge houses within the city Uh some of them
are run very well Some of them have diminished a little bit Uh but they have to abide with all the rules and regulations of being a lodge house They have to pay uh the annual fee Uh they have to have a certificate of inspection
uh annually They're they're uh they have a sprinkler system They're inspected quarterly by the fire department for the sprinkler system So there's uh quite a few fees to go along with a lodging house uh atmosphere versus uh sober
homes Then there's um congregate living and there's boarding houses So we do have a we don't have as many boarding houses as we used to have There was an agency that was uh maybe um Mike was no better They were
being financed through some type of uh fund and they'd have boarding house where uh they'd rented an apartment uh could be uh a two family and they'd have first and second floor women on the second men on the first and they were monitored by a social worker every day
they lived there Uh one would change shifts every day Um they were very well monitored They uh those houses had sprinkler systems Um same rules as more or less the lodging house but not quite as stringent Uh
again they had monitors They couldn't come and go as freely as one could in a lodging house atmosphere Lodging house is somewhat self- sustaining Uh you can come and go as you will Uh you take care of your own meals you have access to
cooking Uh the boarding house had restrictions That's the type of things we have Didn't New Bedford just um put in an ordinance that all their sober houses had to have a sprinkler system
if they did that um they might be going against the building code I don't know if they changed you up but I I did hear about that Do you know anything about that Attorney Rose no I don't I mean I just to kind of shorten the conversation I mean I'm more than happy to write any ordinance that we
need but in my conversation with Glenn I asked him "Do you think it would be helpful?" And his opinion and correct me if I'm wrong was he didn't think he needed an ordinance that the building code was all he needed and he was okay For lodging houses yes Yeah For lodging houses So I'm sorry I go ahead council
Is there any ordinance that should be written drafted for sober houses or any other I I know the lodging houses are taken care of with the building code and things of that nature and and I guess sober houses would be the same right in terms of the building code So is there any ordinance that this this so we
should probably down the road look at putting sober homes maybe into our ordinances our zoning ordinances so as to regulate them uh whereby they wouldn't be uh maybe uh 50 ft from a school as an example or 50 ft from
um a nursing home of some type Well we couldn't treat them differently than anybody else just to be that's right They have to be treated like everybody else you know but create a set of rules um similar to lodge if if they're in certain they're allowed in certain areas
of the city automatically by our zoning regulations If they're not then they would have to go to the board for special permit or a variance uh based on But I think the sober homes I think that's what they were saying that they're exempt from right correct You're right They were right They wanted to say
they're exempt from any zoning and the court just says no you're going to treat like everybody else Part of it the big part of it is where they can locate Correct In terms of the zoning So I'm familiar with an out of town and I don't remember the community Um they had an
area like the Highlands Mhm And they had all mansions all around And this guy particular attorney uh purchased one of these houses next door it was for sale and he put in a sober home next door Um he started out with uh with back then it
was um four individuals He increased it to eight So now he had to abide by all the rules and the regulations But the point here is is that he did not meet the zoning requirements for single ne single family neighborhood and he fought
and now we're at the same level whereby they they mash that agency They won in court back then and um they restrict you to five and you can go in any neighborhood you want and any location
and there's not a darn thing you're going to do about it uh because they are so-called uh under the do amendment right so I guess I'm just trying to figure out so is there so there's no ordinances that we should be looking at to create
or establish Personally I'm not aware of the need for one but as I said um Glenn would be in a better position to know of what problems he has and what he would need to help his enforcement but right now I mean I I don't think we're fighting over any rules we do or do not
need It's just a it's it's more a legal argument as to the building code which would be the same thing as if it were an ordinance Anybody else the only thing I'm going to say is that unless you people I I know two more just moved into the city Um there's again
we're not going to be able to do anything about that Um however if you are aware of complaints or something and you want us to write an ordinance restricted but we're restricted on what we can write because the do amendment is
going to apply They fall under it So I would say did you yield i would say come up with an ordinance specific to sober houses and make sure that you know they're not going to be treated any differently but that you know I think they should have um just
like a boarding house over so many that they should have a sprinkler system that that's concerning to I don't believe we can write the sprinkler system in uh depending on how many people they have well five and over the five and over over five the building code takes effect
right under five and they just relinquished that this past year uh in the building code that under f five and under does not require a sprinkler system I I really like to I know New Bedford
did something with sprinkler systems I can find no but I can check but I'd be very very reluctant to write anything specific as to sober houses The whole point of it is they have to be treated like everybody else that uh that doesn't have a disability Well there was one that people bought and they had people
with disabilities living there and I know some people had made an issue of it and there was nothing we could do They have just as much right to live anywhere but they were supervised It was 24-hour a day supervision on the premises as well Um and I don't know if sober houses
have 24-hour day or social workers just pop in or what you know different rooming houses have because you let's face it with the cost of rent you're going to find people especially if somebody's alone where they're going to want to have shared you know shared
expenses with people Sober homes um counselor has a supervisor and they're usually on site for three sh for the 24 hours Okay um whether they're there for 24 hours and then are off a day and somebody else comes in but they they normally have a
monitor there Have a monitor yes Yes Mr Dion what do you have to add to this conversation on not much well share your thoughts No because I know you deal with one one of the things we deal with is a lot of sober housing Um but we make sure
that um they're certified you know Um and a lot of the uh certified sober housing that we use are not included in Fall River Um we work very closely with Glenn to make sure that um you know
we're not violating any any regulations or any rules or anything like that What do you mean they're not included in Far River we don't do a lot of so we a lot of our sober housing is in is uh um we have encampments enhancement without encampments where we put people in sober living right um we do it mostly in
Bedford Attboro Taton we don't do a lot in F River um uh you know we do have some lodging houses in the city Jerry's Lodging House which was Gil Jerry Lorton yes is now run by Stepping Stone um
there's 23 SRO uh over at that location that location has 24-hour um people that are monitoring that um case management Um but you got to understand it's also a housing first issue Um something that HUD came out with where you're providing
the person housing Um you cannot require them for to to go through uh um any kind of case management so living that type of thing right um um you know you're renting out an SRO an apartment Um we're working right now with um the Passionac
property on Rock Street We're looking at maybe purchasing that um because we do have a lot of people that um are good people that can't afford the rents that are in in the uh um uh in the city right
now Um but in terms of uh um we know what Glenn goes through So we work very closely with his office to say "Hey you know we want to do this or we don't want to do this." Um uh and we look towards him to to give us direction you know we
really do So you don't think we need to do any kind of an ordinance Glenn or would it help you because you need to have ordinances to do your job So I'm just trying to look at what to make at this point in time There's nothing I haven't Sober homes are coming in no matter what Okay Okay They're going to
go wherever they want to go Um and there's there's not a thing we can do about it And they're here and as long as they behave themselves and and do what they're supposed to do we don't get any complaints right um for the most part the ones that come in and start acting
up and doing certain items like Tuttle and and Palmer Street um we're taken care of because they're not abiding by the rules Now if we're going to create an ordinance uh to deal with those that's that's going to be a difficult ordinance
um that would be a zoning issue uh whereby we could let them into that area but if they're certified which is most cases they can go anywhere They're going in anyways You're not going to stop them at one point right so the legitimate people we're going to make it more
difficult for versus the non-legitimate Let's just deal with them as we get them the non-legitimate and we close them down Yeah And that's what it really comes down to when we find out that they're not legitimate Sometimes it's it's horrible You find out later Um uh
we just had one just recently where uh this not Francis House in Fall River but Francis House up in Boston were shipping people down here putting them in a in a in a um multif family and charging like you know $1,400 for each room Soon as we found
that out and we only found that out because there was a fight god forbid a murder at that location Um we found out uh I was in the meeting and we told Francis House to uh go back to Boston Take take your people back to Boston move them out of Fall River Because people don't understand is is even
though they're transplanted to another community all of their services are still provided by Boston So these these people were going up and and getting their doctor's appointments up in Boston medication up in Boston and and they were living down in Fall River It
doesn't make any sense whatsoever at all So the minute the administration found that out and we also did a look at some other properties that were owned by the same owner and come to find out was it one or two of them were being going to be used and we put a stop to that So as
soon as we find out we but that St Francis was not a Catholic organization It was a Catholic organization out of Boston Yeah I thought it was just a corporation that named themselves Francis It was but it was the Catholic the Catholic Church It's uh there's I
looked at them as the same people just a different agency that sent everybody that uh became homeless uh down here and we were supposed to support them you know Uh yeah What happens is the name
What happens is is that they they probably get from the state homeless prevention and rapid rehousing money because Fall River at the time was cheaper than surrounding locations Instead of leaving the person up in the Boston area at I don't know $3,000 a
month or whatever it is they want to bring them down here and they they can service more people having the rent cheaper That's not the case They you know we don't agree with that They should they should keep those people up in Boston Keep them in the community Let them get services
in the community instead of putting them in Fall River And while I'm the community development director if we find out we're going to him and we're we're shutting them down We we had two of those on Ray Street Ray
uh not Ray Yeah Roy Street Um several years ago Uh they somewhat put themselves out of business a very short time after getting here uh with the trouble that they stare up and it just attracts us to them Thank
you council H I just have a real quick question What you just brought up both of you guys Um when you find out that there's the pro there is a problem you you deal with it and you get rid of that particularly St Frances Is there is there any way to be more proactive is to
find out it gets tough right to be more proactive before they even set So the one on Palmer Street that uh council Pereira is talking about that was a um out of town um investor or the three
family decided to convert the house uh through this agency that Mike is referring to Um not the same one not the uh the homeless they they were putting up homeless people Uh but they had some issues uh whether it be alcohol or or
uh sexual predators Go ahead There's there's no way of us knowing that and the out of town investor doesn't care He's going to put him in and hope he can get away with it such as this guy did And it took it
normally in some cases it takes us a little time to to succeed in our mission in my mission Um it doesn't happen right away Some cases depended upon the case we can get rid of them right away Uh the one on Palmer Street was a little
uh cumbersome because uh they had no place to go and we didn't have the funds to put them in a hotel Um so we took out a troublemaker and the rest of them had to go within they were paying monthly They were they had a lease for per room
for that landlord per month Um that was a signed lease they made with the landlord So when their leases went up that's when they had to leave Uh he would have been putting a sprinkler system and he chose not to do that So so like what you just said an investor comes in buys a three tenement or
whatever whatever it may be and they um want to maybe change the structure of the the apartments and put add more apartments to that or whatever they want to do if they have to increase their utility output there There's no u mechanism where they might have to come
to the city to get approval for something like that and then then we can maybe there might be some red flags there So if they probably build if they probably properly apply for building permits will catch them then But they don't do that No these they turned the
PA so they had a double para in the front half half of the house He put a petition down the middle and created two more rooms Um I hate to say this out loud because this is some of my key points but when they block a second means of egress I can shut them down
immediately because the other tenants can't get out So um they have to go period They have to open that up and and and open the keep the open second means of egress Now once that's accomplished
in Beck Palmer Street incident there was still a tenant left or two um they had 30-day leases to an agency and they agreed to let them stay until the lease was up and then they had to move and close down permanently and make it back
to an apartment So that's how we succeeded in in that particular case But he did all this illegally and that's the owners the investors that it's just like they're creating apartments everywhere right you know and when I when I mention be proactive I don't mean that you're
not being proactive No no no I understand Yeah I wish I wish I could be proactive It's tough It's tough to be proactive in that particular scenario We sometimes find out from our homeless advocates that are in the community
through our fast team through um you'll hear certain things of you know uh hey I found an apartment and you start listening and you start hearing you hear more than uh you know they got two three people four people five people living in this residence and uh they'll bring it
to our you know my attention and then we'll bring it to to Glenn's attention but sometimes we don't find out until like Glenn said there's a tragedy there or there's a call you know the police start going into these places a lot If there's calls for services they let him know you know there's been many of
properties that we've closed down throughout the city because of that There is uh I just closed two more recently uh with the police department uh in regards to similar situation um but with drugs you know strictly drugs
Um they went from one house to the other Uh and uh they're working on another house right now Uh and soon as the police department gets uh the opportunity they're going to call me and we'll work on that one Sometimes
you find out too that a person will go to Catholic Charities or they'll come to my office and look for assistance and then you start asking the questions of where you live and what are you doing and how many apartments you got on And then from there you know that hey that person's not living in the in the
correct uh um location We will not help anybody uh that's living that's that's uh um teamed up in that type of uh atmosphere you know So when I go to these places I call Mike I call the fast team
Um and uh they come in and they'll interview some of them and take over and help out some of the some of the people that they're you know that's looking for help Um but not all of them are looking for help Motion grant leaves to withdraw
Second Motion granted a second All in favor i Item number seven on the the agenda uh is short-term rentals Are you uh you want me to stay you sure sure I'm
here Sorry Second the short-term rentals Motion to pass through second reading Second Oh Andrew Councelor Reposa Thanks So I I have a few questions and just
Allan maybe you can help help with this So I had somebody reach out to me concerned about this but it may have I may have answered my own question while I run it by you anyway So short-term rentals essentially the Airbnbs of the world
correct a right thing here So there's a requirement that requires the owner to live there for nine months of the year which led me to the question of what would be the difference between a short-term rental and a lease or or a
normal renting situation a normal home But then I then I realized to go on later on that residential units located in a single family zoning district are not eligible to be Airbnbs Is that correct that's correct Okay So what would
What would leave what zones in the city would be allowed to be Airbnbs that that's the case Well let me I'm not sure if I'm answering your question but I think I am Um what a lot of people don't realize about this ordinance is the
general idea of what an Airbnb is The investorowned property solely for Airbnb it's not allowed in the Fall River So that's what people have to get their head around is that this is I mean the first time Airbnb h B&B happened it was
somebody who had an extra room in his house and there was a conference in I think it was San Francisco and rented it out It's turned into a vehicle for rich people to buy up housing that only increase the cost of housing and limit supply in cities across the world Um so
what this is designed to do is allow somebody who is potentially a snowbird who lives in their house for at least nine months out of the year or apartment that's not a single family home that then they could rent it And you know the idea is that this is a compromise first of all that you know the single family
zoning the expectations that homeowners have who raise a family and live in a single family district won't be harmed by something um of somebody living next door that you know let's face it when when people rent an a house or an apartment for a week at a time they
usually are there celebrating on vacation it's it's a different lifestyle than somebody who lives there uh you know 247 the whole entire year So it'll you know it's not allowed in single family homes but if somebody has you know lives in a a two family district and goes to Florida for a few months and
wants to rent out their property then that's allowable So I think that's the two major things that people don't understand about this ordinance Okay So I guess I guess the only question I had left was in regards to the the number of months in which they
reside I guess the question is is nine an acceptable number should it be less than that more than that i guess is my kind of dilemma with it Yeah And I mean ultimately it's for the city council to decide I mean a few things though Um
this is taken from a webinar I watched in January of this year Um so my numbers are off They're not my numbers But you know just to give you an example 2.4 million listings in the US alone They're growing by approximately 20% a year Um
the homes that are being purchased for short-term rentals are generally going between five and 10% more than a standard price Um to me that's a big one because you know if you're looking to buy a home um you know raise your family you're you finally saved up enough money
you're always going to lose to somebody who wants to put an Airbnb in if they're permitted to If they're willing to pay five 10% more um they're going to win every time So there's been so many numbers showing how it's increased the cost of living Uh I could probably dig
through and find it but it's increases the cost of living It decreases the the supply out there and it's really not for the benefit for anybody other than the people who can afford housing quite easily One who can afford two h two houses um it's become big business It's not too much different the effect that
corporate America has had um with things like um let's the Zillow purchases of homes how a detrimental effect on the cost of living and you know I have traveled in many places where
Airbnbs I've stayed in Airbnbs and most cities I would say are very very negative and they wish they could undo what's already been done because the people who make that city great usually can't afford to live there anymore So that's good and I appreciate
that So I guess at the end my last question because it says that single family resident zoning districts would not be allowed So zoning districts like I don't know a bunch of three- decker houses for example that would be allowed assuming the person lives there
nine months of the year Correct Okay If I may So we I have and we currently have some three families in an A2 apartment district that are doing this Um there's one not far from well it's in
downtown almost in downtown Uh he was uh doing an Airbnb on weekends um on the first floor apartment Um I was able to shut him down because he was operating a business illegally in
the sense that he didn't have a second means of egress uh for the first floor apartment uh it was not handicap accessible nor was there a bathroom that was handicapped and if somebody was handicapped they couldn't get in the
building uh as an example Um so uh eventually I was able to close him down but he told me that it was a very lucrative business Instead of dealing with tenants that didn't want to pay the rent he'd rent it out for a couple of
weekends and make double the rent and uh he uh guaranteed the city that he'd pay his taxes That's what he told me So by doing so um they're making a lot of money in a couple of weekends uh with very little work and they're hiring an
outside agency to do the cleaning and um uh it's just lucrative for somebody to do this So but but ultimately it doesn't I think we've made that point that it doesn't that doesn't help solve the housing issue we have Nope So you're you're you're taking away possible
apartments from someone to live long term versus an in-n-out And I mean and I guess I guess I failed to understand let's say I'm thinking about a three three family in the Flint Why would you run an Airbnb in the middle of the Flint for example
i think when I think an Airbnb I think of you you're staying there because you're going to something So I mean an Airbnb wall on the waterfront maybe but an Airbnb next to a venue of some sort sure But yeah I think it takes away from
a place where someone could live long term and invest in the city more than just a you know come visit see it by We have that situation on Plymouth Avenue Oh we had it uh gentleman owns the house
He leased the second and third floor to a investor in Boston The investor in Boston um rents the second and third floor apartment out of an Airbnb every weekend Uh that's what he was doing and
he was according to my calculations uh making a large sum of money every weekend Uh however it was annoying the tenants on the first floor uh because of the activities over the weekend Um so that's how the complaint started and that's how it ended up getting shut down
is uh but the the in again you can't solve the problem until it happens Correct And then you find out the circumstances uh this the second floor in this apartment
um and and I recall there was eight or nine people uh for the weekend there uh became quite the party house So uh they had a birthday as I recall or somebody's birthday and they decided to rent a house so they wouldn't have to have it
at their home and clean and uh they raised enough of havoc to uh call a building inspector in So okay It's it's a lucrative business in in regard through this ordinance but regardless they're subject to building codes and and inspections as a normal home would
be anyway And yes Okay And then Allan the only other question I have is on the affidavit section So this is uh 14723F number three So it requires the owner's sworn statement that he or she owns a residential unit being offered
and resides in the unit the minimum of 9 months And the way they prove that is basically just showing their license that that's their what they deem their permanent address Correct Um I'm just trying to
proof of ownership which is C right it's uh driver's license in a bill or a voter registration So that with for an affidavit is how we're going to prove it I mean there's different ways to prove it but that's the best I I looked at so
many different ways to prove that the residency I mean clearly somebody could probably somebody could somebody could declare it their primary residence and actually not live there right but the driver's license is I mean that's that's the biggest part here Yeah Okay
Okay I yield Thank you You yield Um Mr Haway when you're going around to these these homes you know short-term rentals or uh whatever are people still posting so that you know who's managing that property or who's not that's supposed to
be posted there for you to reach out to those people So if somebody is renting two floors would you call that person or the landlord or would the landlord have to have something posted there just for you to be able to contact people i know
it's tough enough you drive I'm not inspecting anything at this time If I get there in a complaint I'm going after the landlord Okay and then the landlord brings me to the person that's renting it He's leasing it to and has no idea supposedly that that's going on Uh he
leased two apartments I have no idea what's going on which I'll tell you I am I am aware of the fact that you are doing a lot and it's a matter of going and catching people I mean he closed down a house and all of a sudden drove by and they were bringing in groceries
went in whole house had been redone inside on a house that he had closed down You know if people see something say something you know that's the only way that still dealing with that one counselor You're still dealing with that Absolutely You know hire an attorney
So it's it's difficult to No You only find out after and with housing being what it is a lot of people they remodel They don't get a permit for doing anything in the house Was there an amendment there was an amendment to that one Item number six had an amendment If
you want to give it to us on the That's why you went in for second reading because of your amendment remember well I know that I thought the the question was about insurance Yeah that that may that was the main thing But that was when I looked into it that was already set because you know Fall River's position is until this gets
passed no short-term rentals are allowed anyway But there are state regulations State regulations require registration which is a million-doll insurance policy So they would still have to register with the state even if if and when we pass this So that's all taken care of by the state which is which is much higher
than a typical residential unit anyway right right because the states that was one of the arguments that helped us win with the house on Highland Avenue It's that the court correctly ruled that this is a business You know you've got commercial coverage through Boston You have to register through Boston You got
to pay taxes as if it's a business It's a business So that so that eliminates the question of of the insurance essentially Okay I yield That was the annual registration fee The biggest for sale I've ever seen in my life The uh the annual registration fee There was no
number on the ordinance what the fee was going to be Um okay So that would probably be in the fee schedule Yeah What was the amount there right Mhm Well I at the time I guess I didn't
know but we did the uh application fees registration fees probably similar to the fiber We could Yeah we have that one The clerk's office is probably more familiar with what the fees are I would just say keep it con consistent Maybe Glenn knows I don't I really don't know what Do you know what
the registration fee you could keep it I don't think there is one So we'd have to if we could create one Yes What would you what would you think you deal with this all the time how much $100 annual um
$100 annual registration fee The annual fee for example the uh for the fiber is 500 So I mean I can suggest that for now and then the the full council can decide if they want to raise or lower it and I can maybe do a little more work in it
but I would I would probably go with 500 for now Motion to amend the ordinance so that the fee the annual fee is $500 Second All in favor i uh motion to recommend pass through
second reading as amended Second All in favor i motion Second 500 registration requirement of $500 annual annual now that's does that say strictly how
Airbnb and in uh all the other associated ones or is it just a No it has a definition of a short-term rental Okay short-term rental Beautiful Motion to adjurnn Second All in favor i Thank you Thank you gentlemen Thank you
Hey hey hey Hey hey hey