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Okay, everybody. Good evening. Welcome to the zoning board of appeals. Please silence all cell phones and note that this meeting is being taped by FCTV. If there's any private party recording this hearing, step up to the podium to request permission. I'll introduce the board and staff. On my far

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right is Mark Finan, a voting member. To his left is Scott Peterson, a member. To my right is Frank Duffy, the clerk. My name is Suzanne Murphy, chair. To my left is James Morse, the vice chair. Tony Patruchi, an associate. We have Ashley Dlo, our office assistant, and

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special town council George Poocci. The zoning board of appeals is charged with applying the state zoning statutes as well as the town zoning bylaws in reviewing and voting on applications. All decisions are made through the public hearing process. Our goal is to hear testimony from the applicants and

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the public and to allow a full and fair discussion of the project prior to closing the hearing process and reaching a decision. Number one, to begin chairing, the clerk will read the public announcement for the hearing and read pertinent information from the file. The applicant or the applicant's representative will then have 15 minutes

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to make a presentation, but time may be extended by a vote of the board. The board will then question the applicant. Four, next, the public will then be invited to comment. Comment should be limited to two minutes and be strictly related to the proposal. All members of the public wishing to speak should wait

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to be recognized by the chair to come up to the podium. State your name and address for the record and speak to the microphone. It will not amplify your vo voice. And record audio for FCTV viewers. And before we start the first hearing, we have a time where if anyone wants to make a public comment of on

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anything that's not our not our agenda, you are welcome to come up and make a comment. >> No, I actually wanted to speak under uh the 809. >> You do want to speak under 809. Okay. So, we'll open up 809 and it's already been opened. So, the clerk has done and

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tonight's going to be mostly on engineering. Would you like to speak first since you have a a meeting? Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Peter Johnson sty, assistant town manager. I'm here to speak tonight on the 40B application for 809 Sandwich Road. Uh,

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and I'm here to speak in support of this project. Uh, as the board is aware, the select board voted to endorse this project as a local initiative program informally known as a friendly 40B. That vote was on December 16th, 2024. And I I

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want to say a few words about that local initiative program process. So the town's review of local initiative program or LIP uh projects begins with a review by the town managers housing development working group which is comprised of a select board

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representative in this case Bob Mscali and affordable housing committee representative Dave Garrison, the community development director Jed Corno, housing coordinator Kim Fish, and myself as assistant town manager. The intent of the lip process

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is for the town and the developer to have a dialogue before the developer spends a lot of money on design and gets locked in on the project. Um, so the purpose of that dialogue is for the town to be able to describe what it wants and

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uh and needs from a housing developer and what is feasible to the developer. In this case, the working group met with the developer several times and I have to say I was very pleased with the outcome. At our first meeting with Jack Dolly, he was planning for a forale home

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ownership development. The Fmouth Housing Production Plan, as you may know, calls for prioritizing creation of affordable rental units. We asked the developer to consider a rental development and he agreed.

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The initial proposal was for 13 of 36 units to be deed restricted affordable. We asked the developer to consider adding How long is this going to take? >> About two minutes. >> Continue.

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>> Thanks. We asked for more units, more affordable units, and the developer agreed to add four additional deed restricted units. This is how the LIP process is supposed to work. We arrived at a project that was well tailored for the town's housing

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needs, including a mix of 80% area median income units and units restricted at 100% and 110% of area median income. And those latter categories are something that the town has really tried to prioritize. sometimes referred to as

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the missing middle. Um where folks were working and earning an income a little bit too much to qualify for 80% units but still very hard to find units that are affordable to folks in that 100 to 140% uh area median income.

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The members of the working group were unanimous in recommending approval of this project as a lip to the town manager. The town manager in turn recommended that that the select board vote to approve the project as a local initiative program and the select board

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vote to endorse it was unanimous. The amended project before the board now has reduced the number of affordable units to 11. This is still two more than is required under 40B. The select board affirmed its support for this project

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with this project change on June 1st of this year. and you have a memo from housing coordinator Kim Fish that provides further detail on the LIP evaluation criteria. In closing, I know the members of the ZBA are well aware of the regional

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housing crisis. It is reported by the conquered group traffic that roughly 30% of individuals working on the Cape are coming from off Cape. They're driving over the bridges. The Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution reports that

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the total number of year-round rental listings has decreased by 75% since 2004. The town and the Cape desperately need rental housing that is attainable for working families and individuals who live here year round. This project makes

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efficient use of the land available for the development and it is proposed on a lot that is already cleared. So there are reduced environmental impacts. I urge the board not to attempt to reduce the number of units proposed. We

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need all 11 of these attainable affordable and attainable units. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay. So tonight we're going to review engineering. You had your engineer before with Mr.

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Santos. I don't see him. >> Thank you. Good night. Good evening. My name is Jack Dolly. I'm the president of Northland Residential. I am the applicant. Tim Santos is not here, but um Brandon Barry from Merill Engineer is here and he can speak to the storm water

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management design plan if you'd like him to. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. We weren't going to do storm water, but I guess we can go over it tonight. >> What? >> We were going to do engineering being that I know I wanted one of the buildings to be moved and I felt that if

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we attacked the plan that way if there was any revisions that would give you plenty of time to do that. >> We had storm water for a different day, but we haven't had any storm water. So, we can go. Is it Is it a long >> Yep. Go ahead. >> Excuse me. I mean, that would be affected by any changes. So, it's

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putting the car before the horse. >> That's what I think. Yeah. >> Okay. I'm sorry. I was >> It was supposed to be engineered. >> We did. >> Okay. Okay. We can We can do >> I was led to believe that it was storm water, but we will go where the chair would like to take the conversation to

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go. >> So, anyway, we have questions on engineering. I don't know if I don't >> Brandon and I and Allan uh can respond to >> So many of them site the site plan. You're really referring to site plan. site plan >> uh related issues.

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>> Yes. >> Come on up before he begins. >> Go ahead, Tony. >> Can we put the site plan everything up in the uh screen? >> I I can. How do I do this, Ashley? >> Beforehand.

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>> Sorry. >> Well, I mean, whatever. Yes, I told you. >> I'm sticking to engineer. this folder here. >> Great. >> Use the black and white. >> Yeah, please use the black and white.

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>> Before we get begin, Madam Chair, I have plans. We've been handed several. What is the date of the current version? The uh current plans that we should be reviewing uh were resubmitted to the town in April. They should have a revision date of 1211 um on them in the

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>> 12 1125. >> Yep. 121125. >> Thank you. >> Did you say December 11th? >> December 11th, 2025 should be the most um current revision date on them. >> Second one down. You got it. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yeah, there should be two. >> You want to do a quick overview for

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there might be somebody new in the audience? I know we did this before, but we have a different person, but if you want to do a quick overview. >> Yeah. Um, so the development, the property is 809 Sandwich Road. Um, it's located along Sandwich Road, obviously, just to the southwest, um, or southeast,

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uh, opposite the intersection of Hatchville Road. Um, the development is trying to maintain the existing curb cut that exists to the property today. Um the property currently has a single family dwelling and a barn structure and is predominantly cleared. Um as was previously referenced, uh we're looking

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to maintain the curb cut to the extent practical, but is being widened slightly. We'll have a 16 ft uh in each direction two-way access drive that will have an island separating them to access into the site. Uh as you enter the site, the driveway will go down from the 37 ft

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total width to about 22 as you travel through the site. Um, upon entering there are there is an intersection um to provide dead-end streets to provide access to a couple of units right as you enter. As you continue on through the 22 foot drive uh through the rest of the units that go through the the site, uh

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there is a dead end at the back uh but then a turnaround area to provide access and circulation for fire trucks. The firetruck turning on the site has been reviewed and approved by the fire department uh based off what is shown on this plan. Um there is a number of um

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units uh just get the total number for 36 total um units on the plan totaling 90 bedrooms. Um there's also walking paths and a few uh amenities for the development as well including a play area, a dog park um and then a pavilion

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that would be like a bus stop or mail collection area. >> Okay. Anybody want to want to start, Mark? um >> off the bat. >> Start in the middle. Yeah. Is that after the commercial?

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>> Um all right. I mean, there's number numerous uh questions here from the review. But I mean, I look at this. I'm just going to be honest. This is how I look at it. And um safety is always an

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issue for me. So the way I see it and if you stack this on top of the other project which they're stacked on top of one another you can't do anything about it from my outlook and I mean I have a background in engineering but it goes way back you know the trains were

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running then um I see this place operating better with some kind of an agreement with the one next door where we're only clogging up Sandwich road with one outlet, inlet, whatever. I mean, you can

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easily turn left into this. You can almost take these and and invert them and uh just move a house or two, a house and and get it over to the other side. But um I mean, we're only just basically starting and I just whatever. I'm going

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to harp on safety from now till it's over. these other details are just you know I mean you don't have all the plans depending if you flip it it changes everything but I mean um I just want to do this in the best way for everyone

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that um lives there and around there and I mean like I said this is just step one we haven't even gotten to first base really so but I might as well tell you where I'm at and uh I that that's the end of it for now >> certainly and um you know obviously

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viously safety is something that we want to address any concerns that you would have um short of interconnecting with the adjacent property or linking the two because obviously we don't have rights to that property. We can only work within the parcel that we have development rights to >> um Oh, yep. So, we can only work within

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our property. So, we can't directly link. >> But, I mean, the curb cut thing is just it it may very well be just a bridge too far and something you're going to have to >> I don't know. It's going to be a long process. Whatever. I mean, uh I could end up being totally wrong, but

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might be totally right, too. >> Okay, >> Scott. Uh just again as Mark pointed out a general theme it would be nice we have the proximity of the units to Sandwich Road at what 23 feet or so it's you know

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with a kind of a setback of 35 would have been nice. Did you ever look at and I'm not sure that you can answer the question, but were were forplexes ever looked at in way to kind of densify maybe further back from the road and and

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move back some of the ones that are up on Sandwich Road or was that never thought about? >> Uh, it may have been. I'm Alan Aman from Ryan Associates Landscape Architecture and Planning. Uh we may have looked at a number of different building types at

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the beginning, but as was described with the work with the the select board and the committee, um it moved pretty quickly to a duplex style um model type and the precedent elsewhere in town that was an attractive uh building type to to

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to use here. So we went to duplexes pretty soon. >> Is a forplex more expensive than duplex? it has other starts to get into other code issues. Um you end up with middle units, you know, so these all have these live more like individual

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>> um with daylight on three sides which is a nice >> plus. So, I mean, there's a lot of uh livability um arraying a forplex on a on a site because they're longer. You know, it's they tend to line up like soldiers and

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it's easier to um work the site so that you're not seeing big lines lineups of garage doors in quite the same way. We can introduce some curvature to the road, work with um the topography. There's not a lot of topography here, but stepping the buildings, you know, so

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there's disadvantages to the the duplex. >> Thank you. >> Mhm. >> No further questions right now, >> Frank. >> Well, the first two members uh raised basically my two issues. Also, I would have liked or would have preferred that

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when the parties came before us, they had gotten together and worked out some kind of an arrangement for a common driveway. would have would have taken care of one of my principal concerns. But I understand you can only work uh on a on the lot that you own or the lot that you have right

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rights to. Um and we have to deal with that because apparently it's not possible for you to get an agreement. Um uh the the intersection of um your driveway or actually your your

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development road and Sandwich Road to me is at a kind of a difficult situation. I've read the traffic reports. Um, but I know myself when I tried to get out of there, I was looking at a lot of traffic coming around that curve and it's coming at you kind of fast and I am concerned

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about the people who live there uh and dealing with it on a daily basis. It's going to be very annoying. But the other thing that I would like to ask you about, you've got two uh or excuse me, four buildings that are set back according to your plan 23 feet from from

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the property line. Uh, as you know, the 35 ft is our preferred setback distance under the zoning bylaw. Have you or will you make any accommodation by perhaps putting extra insulation in the street side of that house so that the people

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who live there don't have the noise of this road going through their house every day, every every minute. Seems to me there's got to be something done architecturally with buildings that are closer to the road just to make it more

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livable. >> Yeah, I um being the engineer, I can't speak for the architect, but obviously there is a fencing shown along there as well to provide somewhat of a visual screen. You know, that won't be a perfect um audio screen for that, but fencing around there will help with the visual screen for it. And that's something that we can ask the architect.

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>> Well, visual screening is one thing, but noise screening to me is another thing entirely. And I I there must be some product out there you can uh put in the wall in the form of additional insulation or sound deadening material that'll help these people. I'd like to hear something about that perhaps when

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you come back. >> I also share huge concern with being 20. Have you been out to that site? >> You've heard what the trucks do when they come down the hill. You you've heard Okay. It's all day. Not all day,

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but they might take Sundays off. Do they >> trucks there? >> But it's um I think that it's way too close to the highway myself. I'd rather have them pulled in. That's why I think Scott's idea of even a triplex or a

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forplex and not even have people living on that road like that. They're not going to be able to sleep or anything. These things start about 4:30 in the morning. I might be quarter 5, but it's very early. there's no sleeping going to be happening in those four dwellings unless

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there is some kind of sound deadening and um that's a fact. And then the four houses in the rear, how um is the Amazon guy going to turn around there? >> Um they could utilize either the

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driveways or you know as he turns on >> someone else's property >> when as he turns into the drive, you know, into that road, he can park on the street unless he's at the very end of the intersection. It's not a long way to back up and then go out. You know, it's it's a shorter There's some driveways. I'm sure Amazon trucks will pull down um that they need. >> Now, that's their parking spot is their

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driveway. >> The the >> the four units. >> The road layout can handle a fire truck. So, how does an Amazon truck differ? >> Yeah. I'm in that house. Number 17, maybe. Mhm. >> Number nine. Number nine.

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>> I got my car parked in the driveway. Amazon shows up. What are they doing? >> Because they're going to show up at all these houses. >> Sure. Right. >> You're you're fine with it. >> They would. >> Yeah. We >> they would reverse back out, use the the

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hammerhead, turn around below the units there and then exit through the site. >> They know every driveway in town, I imagine. >> Yeah. >> And the other thing I I don't have the stats for the pavilion, the size. It doesn't have it on the plan at all. >> It's about uh >> not about I need the stats on the

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pavilion. Sure, >> please. I don't have that at the tip of my tongue. It's about 14 by 24. Looks smaller than the driveways.

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>> And those are 18. >> It's smaller than 24. Yeah, for sure. >> The driveways are 18. >> Yeah. You want it bigger? >> Well, I'm just was going to ask it's going to be for male and you said the bus stop. >> Mhm. >> 20 >> like a like a congregation for potential

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children before they go. >> 16 ft long bus, >> not a dedicated bus stop for public transportation. >> No, it can't. The bus can't come in. So, where are the parents that live in that the guy that has no place to turn around with the hammerhead when they go to

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bring their kids up to this pavilion? You have to wait for the bus. The kids can't you can't even get them out of the car there or they'll get the pancake out. Um, where are they going to park up there >> in the surface? >> There's two spots at the pavilion. One is handicap. They can't park in the

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handicap. >> There's six to either side of the main drive. What? There's six to either side of the main drive >> and then there's two more just a house in >> and two more on the other side of the street. So one, two, three, four, five, >> 15 spaces. >> Yeah. >> So they're going to take guest spots up

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and then walk up the street walk, I suppose, right? >> No, they won't walk near I wouldn't let my kid walk near Sandwich Road. No way. >> You said they're walking from >> I'm trying to understand. >> They're going to get driven. When you drive down Sandwich Road, all the little streets are filled with the parents sitting in their cars so the kid doesn't

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get killed when it gets off the bus. That's the way it is on Sandwich Road because the average is about 50 maybe 48 miles an hour. So, the kids are going to be I wouldn't let my kid loose. I mean, maybe there's someone up there that would. I I don't know. I would be holding my kid's hand

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to the road personally, but that's where I'm wondering. They're going to have to leave their car. So, you think the guest spots are okay? that will accommodate >> because you're building this for kids. >> I'm trying to understand the question still which homeowners >> any homeowner >> any of the ones that may need to Yeah.

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>> So somebody who doesn't want to walk down the street with their childh >> Well, most people have to go to work right after they drop the kid off. >> Yeah. >> They go out jogging with the UPS >> 26. Yeah. >> All right. So it sounds like it functions like every other neighborhood.

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>> Yeah. >> Yeah. But they have areas to pull over in their neighborhoods >> in like these spots >> either side. >> We do it with any 40B. We we have like a little area where you pull over so that they can walk their kids to the end of

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the street. I just didn't see one here. If you're using guest parking, I I I guess. Okay, that's I guess I'll I'll have to look at it more. >> But that's an issue for me because the kids can't be they can't walk alone up

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there, believe me. I don't know if you don't have kids or something, but they can't go up there by themselves. So, that's a concern for me. And uh Okay, that's all I have for now, but I do not like those buildings so close to Sandwich Road at all. I think they should be pulled in. A reconfiguration

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could happen >> or shared. >> I'm not looking. I'm not, you know, >> or shared. >> Yeah. >> I mean, the you just double the space, right? >> Yeah. >> Okay, Jim. Uh, first question really more towards the developer, but I'm just I know the answer, but I'm just going to

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ask you for the purpose of the record. Has there been any discussion about reduction in units to decrease the density? And if so, and if it's not possible, could you just for the record explain why briefly? >> Sure. The microphone should put up. Thank you, Mr. Dolly.

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>> For the record, reducing the number of units is not possible. >> Financial reasons. >> For financial reasons. >> Thank you. >> Um >> that's easily demonstrated. >> The the reduction of any units is not possible for financial reasons. The

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applicant has just stated they couldn't hear. Is there kind of on the south my concern is always with buffering with with adjoining properties. Um what is I noticed that there's a walkway on the south border there to kind of to

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loop the walking around the it's called the community garden or village green, excuse me. Um is there any possibility of pulling that off the lot line to try to keep some of the natural vegetation? Is that possible? I know the septic is going in there. You don't necessarily want root

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incursions, but just trying to think about delineating and separating these properties and keeping some sort of green vegetation between the two prop two developments. We could look to relocate that walk. I think any natural vegetation, as you referenced, the

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septic systems going to be going in there. So, construction of that would probably remove a lot of the natural or existing vegetation that's between the house and the property line. Now, there's a fence to serve as a buffer between the two along that property line. Uh but if it would be preferable to have that walkway either further off the line or maybe even there uh we could

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take a look at that. So >> and I think the existing conditions plan which should be in your package shows the vegetation line I believe through here down here. So I don't know if there's much to save there along the property line. >> There's some there isn't much. I was just out at the property. I'm just kind

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of overall just generally we like to keep some type of buffer between the two properties. um with the density you've got and we've had some significant snow storms the last couple of years. What's the plan for storage of snow that accumulates uh on the property? You don't have a lot of

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areas. I the areas you do have look like they're going to fill up very quickly. What's what's the overall plan if you have one? Well, the, you know, the first snow, it'll be plowed like the first snow. And the snow will be, you know, plowed progressively as the storms

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accumulate. And we do get big snow storms where, like the one this past winter where you do have an awful lot of snow at one given time. Um, the data usually shows that there's melting events between storms. So, like any other neighborhood, we're we're plowing

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to the curb. Uh we're plowing to the heads of the the gift spots to the sides of the driveways to between the the sidewalk and the and and the road so that the snow will be dispersed um pretty typically >> not removed. >> That's pretty rare. But, you know, if

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that does have to happen, that is one of the benefits of a, you know, a managed property for rent, right? The applicant has to um make sure that the tenants have, you know, access to their property. So, if it gets to that, you know, then the that is a management

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issue. A lot of 40bs that we have that are dense like this, we do usually they do usually even volunteer to remove because it's going to be hard with these sidewalks and you know, you can't just dump it where the fire truck's going to go

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>> and the three corners. I mean, >> yeah, >> plow that without >> Yeah. >> taking snow away on on any kind of a a substantial snow you're >> you're not managing. >> Go ahead. Sorry. Um, no. The other just general comment just the developers. Uh,

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thank you for once again putting these back as rental properties as opposed to home ownership. >> Thank you again for making these rental properties as opposed to home ownership to add to the town's subsidized housing inventory. Thank you. I no other questions at this time, Madam Chairman. >> Tony,

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>> um, I would uh like to just discuss a few things. Uh, I want to start with utilities. Um my question is what is the peak hour domestic water demand and how does it affect pressure? Have you looked at that?

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>> Uh I do not believe we have peak hour demand for the for the development at this point. No. >> Will you have that? Because you're going to have to figure that out. >> We can look into that. Yes. >> Yeah. The other thing is what is the available fire flow at the nearest hydrant and has the water department

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confirmed adequate pressure and fire flow? Um, we have shown the fire department the layout of the proposed utilities and firet truck turning. We have not confirmed pressure or flyer flow uh at the water main yet. >> I will be asking you uh with regard to that uh every uh emergency access on the

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527 CMR regarding safety, but uh that's something that I know that when I've ever had a build subdivision, that's a key question that has to be answered. So, we're going to want that answered. Um with regard to water, are any pump stations proposed? And if so, are there

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any redundancies provided? >> We are not proposing any pump stations. >> So, there'll be no pump stations. Um, has the power company confirmed capacity for the project load? Is it available?

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>> We um have not reached out to the electric company to confirm capacity at this point. >> I'd like to know what that answer is. >> Yep. Um, if there are transformers on site, which I suspect they probably will be, will they be loc how where will they be located and how would they be screened?

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Um, we would work with the power company to locate the transformers as needed likely between the units off, you know, in off the road so they're not right on the roadway or at the sidewalks. Uh, and then use the landscape plantings to screen them. >> You do that. All right. That that's the

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answer. That'll be with regard to emergency access under 27 CMR, the fire code, and I know you've been to the fire department, all that, but it's far more than can the truck turn around. It goes way beyond that, including things that were brought up about snow storage. So, let me just talk about this quickly

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because you have just an unbelievable amount of dead ends and and um and there is a hammerhead. I still don't understand how the town accepts hammerheads versus culde-sac, but they do. Um, do any uh does any dead end fire

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access road exceed 150 ft? >> The access roads themselves um from the connection or are we looking from Sandwich Road to the end considering that >> anything for me is not being a professional in this particular area? >> I have to ask because my engineers talk

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about this all the time. Um the question is does any dead end fire access road that's the whole road exceed 150 ft without a compliant turnaround is required of the 527 CMR >> the main drag wood um you know as you

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measure it as it's one continuous road to those rear units is a dead end over 150 ft. All right. So, these are safety issues uh that this board is going to be very concerned with and 40B allows us to go through these. A few more questions if you don't mind.

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>> Uh is it okay to go on? Um so with regard to the fire truck and you talked to uh the fire department about this 527 CMR has specific requirements to

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accommodate uh the largest responding apparatus. This hammerhead which I'm not sure is a hammerhead. Um it's the one that's unit number 11. That's what you're considering the hammerhead because the other is just a dead end. That's not a hammerhead.

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>> Yes. >> So, under 527 Camar, is that dead end road uh a safe place for a fire truck to be caught into? What will happen if they have to go to that dead end if the fire is right there? Are you expecting them just to

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back into the hammerhead? >> That is the the access that we're planning for. Yes, >> that is the axis and it it is covered and adequate for 527 CMR. is the fire code >> is what we would assume the fire department has reviewed it based off of

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when the fire >> I don't want it to be assumed this is about safety this is a very compact uh uh complex site very small with a lot of units per acre and there can be no mistakes with regard to fire the you

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know and so I don't think you can assume >> we will >> that is the case >> we will revisit the 527 and comments that we may have received from fire and make sure they remain >> a couple more I do I do have just a few more questions. Just want to get on the record. Um, what would happen if a vehicle was parked illegally along the

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driveway? Do u how does that impede uh fire trucks if can they get by it? >> If they are parked illegally on the road, is that road wide enough? I think there's something about a minimum of 20 ft, but >> it is a minimum 20 ft. If a car was parked there, uh the road's 22 feet

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wide. Uh, so if a car was parked through one of the main drags on the road illegally, they would probably still have a 12 to 13 ft. >> Okay, let's to go from probably to that they will get by because people will park illegally. >> All right. Um, is the driveway, and this

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is all in the 27 CMR. Is the driveway enough wide enough for two emergency vehicles to pass? >> To pass with a car parked illegally or just pass >> just two vehicles to pass. So, one pulls over. Can the other one get by? Yes, the

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fire definite answer. >> Fire trucks that we model typically are 9 to 10 feet wide. Uh so if there was one parked on the side of the road, uh it would take up about 9 to 10 feet, maybe 10 and a half if it's not right on the curb. We would still have 12 1/2 ft beyond that or 11 1/2 ft beyond that for

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a separate fire truck to go by. So if they are not under over 11 and 1/2 ft, they should be able to pull by there. >> Okay. Now, are there any and I think I already know the answer. Uh if the primary driveway,

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which there is one, if it were blocked, is there a secondary means of uh egress for the emergency vehicles? >> There is none. Uh right now, no. >> And how do we cover that? That's a safety issue. So, I'm going to circle that is I don't know if that's going to be good enough.

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>> The the only accommodation the island does um where it's a separated driveway, uh the island does provide some protection in that instance. It's not a you know, two lanes right next to each other. At the main entrance, there is a 5-ft island. So, if there was an accident, chances are it's in one of the other one of the two driveways. So, one

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of them would likely be able to be utilized by a firetruck. So, there is some accommodation for that. Uh outside of being able to use that other driveway, there is not a second means of eress right now. >> So, with regard Thank you. with regard to uh snow storage, snow removal,

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um what I heard uh when you were answering I think um Mr. Morris's question. I think I forget who asked the question with regard to snow storage. Um, how can you first of all we know that location of fire hydrants are

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required under 527 CMR. So you didn't quite answer snow storage. You just said, "Well, it's going to melt." And we know that there are storms that it just doesn't melt, right? And there has to be a plan in which to get it out of the

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subdivision, which I would imagine that you would hire somebody to take it out in dump trucks. I mean that has to be the answer to the question because you cannot block the hydrants >> with snow plowed up on the So you have to have a plan as to what you're going

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to do with the snow and how you're going to keep access to the uh to the hydrants. >> Um >> sufficient storage area would also work. >> I think we can look at and display on the plan areas that are available for snow storage where plowing it makes sense not just behind the houses. Um and

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also show that that snow storage area does not is given proper buffer to the hydrants. So during plowing activities it's removed we can show that on our plans we can review the amount of available area that we can come up with on that plan and then formulate a plan for if removal seems to be necessary. So I don't want to litigate that fully

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rather a little bit just because I know you're going to shut me down here. Um, with regard to, uh, parking, dumpsters, loading, snow storage as we just talked about, uh, can you identify,

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uh, any kind of dumpster loading areas that could impede fire trucks that would be on the street or you can say that they just won't there won't be any. >> The plan for trash is that they will have trash and recycling bins per unit that will be wheeled out to the curb for trash day, picked up, and then removed through a private trash service. There

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is not a communal dumpster area proposed on the site. >> So, we covered utilities. Um, quick question um about grading slopes and retaining walls. I notice you have a retaining wall that is right up against the property line and that generally

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does not work out for the abutter. Uh, so let me ask you these questions and I and I'll end this. >> Um, are there any slopes steeper than 3 one such as 2:1 on this property? >> None proposed. Are any walls within 10 ft of the property line? I think the answer is

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yes. >> Um, >> how are they going to be supported? How are you going to make sure that they don't fall into the abut's property? >> Um, so not being a structural engineer, I can't speak to the specifics of it. The wall will be designed by a structural engineer based off the height

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of it. Um, it is a fill. Our site is the fill side of the wall. So we don't need to put any supports into the other side. They will be the cut side. They will be lower than our site. Um, so any supports, back ties, geog grids behind the wall that are needed to support that will be designed by a structural engineer for the >> So the answer will be an engineered plant because Okay, so we'll be four

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feet. >> Can I interrupt for a second? Can we get the calcs on that when you come back? But there's no calcs on this plan of the retaining wall >> for the retaining wall. >> Yeah, please. >> So my I'm trying to make this my last question. So what often happens with retaining walls that are being

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constructed particularly up against the butters is that the slope is some is dug into taken away and it destabilizes the soils around it >> and often that can affect the people

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next door or any affect anyone. So how will you protect in the mutter because you're right on the property line. How will you protect the butter when you make that cut? It's >> not a cut. It's not a cut. It's just going to sit on top. >> Yes. >> All right. So, we don't have a cut. No. Okay.

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>> I guess that is for the moment. I do have more questions, but I I'll >> You'll hold off. >> I'll hold off. >> Anybody have any other further questions here? >> Just a couple things. Um, you know, I mean, we're not anti

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anything. We just look very closely at things and try to give the town and the people of this town the best thing possible, you know, and we're going to take a much closer look at this than any one previously has. And um um whatever

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that's important for you guys to understand. Um but there's a few things um with the uh pro proximity to Sandwich Road. There's also uh as Frank brought up the sound. There's also uh with traffic that moves at that kind of

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speed. There's also a huge dust issue. I mean, as soon as you open the screens, it just fills your house with with dust, you know, and up. So, that also affects the uh being closer to the road than we expect. Um and I mean, you you said u

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that if we asked for a reduction in units um that it would uh uh ruin the project financially. I mean, uh, whatever. At some point, would you be able to show us that? And that's just, this is the first out the gate. Out of

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the gate. And, um, again, um, oh, there's an engineering question. Um, if this thing were flipped, is the uh area at the top of the uh just as acceptable for a septic system

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in the uh interest of perhaps having a one shared exit in the shared property line or something? I mean, simple just the septic question, would it function just as well at the top side of the uh property? >> Yeah, we did we've done soil test pits in the area of the uh storm water

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infiltration systems up here. Yeah, but I mean let's not I'm just asking you if that whole thing were flipped so the storm water um but Oh, so you've done >> we've done test pits in that side and found similar similar feet. Yep. >> Just a curiosity, how how far above like

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groundwater is that? >> Um we did not encounter groundwater um down to a depth of about 10 to 10 to 11 ft. >> Yeah. But I mean, anybody have any idea how far it is? It's all right. Doesn't matter. I'll find out from somebody who knows. Um

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I Safety is my big thing, you know. That's all. >> Uh, just a quick question to follow up. Uh, for the basements, they're all crawl spaces. >> Slab. >> Crawl spaces. >> Slabs. Slabs. >> Yeah. No crawl spaces.

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>> Thank you. >> In response to Mr. Petrrui's question about trash, I believe you said there's going to be curbside pickup. >> You have that confirmed in writing from the Department of Public Works? >> No, it would be private pickup. >> Private. Private. >> Private. Yeah. >> Okay. Thank you.

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>> My final question is um well for now uh storage. There's like not any hardly. You have a garage. No shed. Anything else?

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What's the attic going to be like? We haven't pulled downstairs. Is it going to be any storage? Awesome. Wow, that's great. >> Well, then Madam Chair, how where do people put their belongings that they have to store?

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>> Why not why not put a a U plywood floor just around the access area so they can put something up there? I know the way you're going to in I think I know the way you're going to insulate it. >> And you're going to have to be pretty deep, but >> yeah, that that's we're the civil and

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the landscape architect. So we can't directly speak to building code and you know tenant management and attic space. I mean that's >> I don't >> bring back that you're going to hear that question. Were you going to would you madam chair would they get back to you

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>> and answer the question as what can they do to provide some storage and I know >> you are very likely again I'm not looking at framing plans I don't know but you're very likely to be able to add

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some 4x 8 by 4 by8 around a some drop down stair even though it'd be pretty messy with the kind of insulation you're very likely to put in Am I correct? May I ask Mr. Dolly that question? May I ask Mr. Dolly that question?

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>> He has to come up to the podium. >> Thank you. >> May I Mr. Dolly? >> These will be uh trusses. Am I correct? >> The seal the roof structure will be a trust roof structure. Correct. So when we ask about putting in storage

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someplace and you don't seem to have many areas on site, although it would be good if you did, you have to in my opinion, you have to find some means of somebody putting something someplace to at least store Christmas lights or suitcases, things like that. There's no

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it's slab on grade. So with trusses, and I think I brought this up before I talked about box trusses, and I know they're slightly more expensive. They're not prohibitive because people use them all the time where you can put a pull downstairs. The box truss has a flat bottom like this in an open. You know, you know what

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box truss looks like? Like that. Why can't you do an area of box truss just to satisfy this storage thing? Just small for you know piece of plywood, piece of plywood, piece of plywood, piece of plywood. >> Let me look at the cross-section of the architecture and the and and the

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structure up there to see if it makes any sense. That's all we ask. >> I really don't want the attics and rental units to turn into dumpsters. >> They do. As a landlord, >> I've been there. So, um, but I

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>> Everybody's got a Christmas tree. >> Not in their living room year round. >> Understood. I'll take a look at the architecture. >> Anything you can do. Appreciate it. Thank you. >> Any other questions? follow any other >> can can we just go back to the uh

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setback from the street you know on this street it's talked about how dangerous this street is all right everybody knows this it it's reported it'll come up in traffic uh uh study uh the planning board wants to see you

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push it back to 35 ft actually they want to see you get rid of the I believe they want to I didn't bring that page get rid of 8, 9, 10, 11 potentially. I think that was the comment. But going back to Mr. Peterson's comment about three

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plexes, fourplexes, I get the whole thing about doing that. Uh, it is something that is done architecturally. It doesn't have to be lined up like some tenement. There's a lot of creativity go into. We're going to cover architecture

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on another night. Uh, but I just wanted you to think about when we get to architecture on that night that I'm going to ask, did you look at it? How did you approach it? Did you just not care or was there some and you

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talked to but we don't we're not talking about reducing units. We're trying to figure out how you save units but provide the safety aspect of units being pushed further back from the street. Not talking about re losing units. We're talking about just architecturally

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changing some of these things so we can achieve that goal. So I'm going to ask at that meeting, did you look at it? How did you approach it or you just didn't care? Okay. Thank you. >> George, do you want to say anything?

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You're all set. Is anybody have any further further questions before I go to the public? I mean, Matt, sorry. You're the public. So, we have our peer review that's going to come up and go over the engineering.

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That's okay. Why not, ma'am? Thank you. Thank you. >> Good evening. Uh, for the record, Matt Cody Appeals and Thomas, a professional engineer. Uh, we were tasked with uh doing a peer review on the reference project. Um we issued our letter to the

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board uh dated June 5th and received um some responses uh to those comments yesterday. Um obviously we didn't get a thorough chance to go through those, but I was able to kind of skim through it quickly and um just wanted to highlight some of the things that most of which have already been talked about this evening, but we'll highlight them again

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just for the record. Um obviously they requested several waiverss um a lot of them administrative, you know, just you know from planning board review and obviously those things that fall into the 40B category. So we're obviously fine with those. Um there were the you know the waiver regarding the setback

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and um the uh lot coverage um which obviously we questioned and obviously been discussed here tonight of the density and um you know potential reductions andor u um your configuration alternatives. You know we're looking for some information

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on that. Um they did request a waiver from a street opening permit um and said they wouldn't need one. Um the water main work is in the street. So obviously they're going to need one and that's not something we would obviously recommend you granting and I think that was echoed by U DPW.

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Um a couple other a couple other notable was was the septic system. Um there were some questions there. It does have nitrification but obviously we would defer to the board of health on you know the full review and approval of that system. We did question the water system. Again you're going from a single family house to now 90 bedrooms. You

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know we is there is there adequate pressure? What are the implications there? The applicants indicated they will work with DPW or the water department on that. We had questioned again the fire access. Um the early indication is that the fire department has reviewed and approved it. Um but

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obviously it is tight. Um ADA uh we question you know the they're showing sidewalks but any kind of like accessible ramps or anything like that. Um they said that's something they would add to the plans. Um, we did note that not all the buildings had walkways to the rear and

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questioned if that was like for a specific reason or not. Um, they said it was more kind of just it would be like a you know a unit preference to you know some people want more privacy. Um, I guess we would just assume we just would have assumed that the access to all units would have been the same. Um, but

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we'll again we can go through that further as the you know revised revisions come in. We had also questioned like the limit of clearing. Um again the the site is mostly clear but there will be some you know implications as was mentioned earlier about screening at the property lines

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and different things. So we wanted to some clarification on how much or how much uh vegetation would be remaining after the site is largely clear. I mean again it is largely clear to begin with but again as it gets they're pushing out basically to the property line. So what will be remaining?

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Uh we referenced the snow issue you know again it's a very tight site uh for larger events. How's that going to be handled? Um we, you know, Bills and Thomas is a traffic engineer by trade. We don't have any um traffic engine on staff, but we did review the report in in general. Um we did note that the site

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distance is not, you know, sight distance concerns are not on the plan. Um the response was that, you know, it's all in the traffic memo, but then within that traffic memo, there was reference to there's likely going to need to be clearing in the right of way to achieve the proper sight distances. So that's

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then obviously something we'd want to see incorporated into the plan and not just live in the traffic memo. Um there were some other concerns about the landscaping plan which we didn't necessarily have right away. We do have that now. So that's something we'll go through that you know again gets the screening the retaining walls etc. And

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then we did have a couple concern couple minor comments on the storm water. Um we do understand that the DPW has already gone through their storm water review and I guess they were satisfied. Um, so we'll see, you know, but we did note a couple minor items that um will, I

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guess, will or will not be addressed. Um, but that's >> location questions >> about the storm water. >> No, the septic too. >> Yes, because the septic Yeah, the the as the the reserve field overlaps the tank

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was the one question. But again, I could we would defer to the board of health. You know, ultimately that's a board of health. Yep. >> What they're comfortable with and not comfortable with. But yeah, that was the the reserve area and there was a question about potentially flipping the, you know, having the actual septic system up closer behind those houses have the reserve on the property line.

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Um, but again, we would defer to the B, you know, however the board of health wants to handle that is obviously we're fine with. >> Sounds good. Anybody have any questions for >> I'm sorry. I apologize. Go ahead. Uh with regard to number 11, the fire hydrants when you made the comment about

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uh let me say the first was located approximately 300 ft from Sage Road with the second being at the end of the access driveway approximately 750 ft from Sage Road and 450 from the first high. When you made that comment, were

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you referring to 527 CMR or am I wrong in that? >> No. Yeah. I mean just generally I mean typically you want to see them more evenly spacing. If you know if you have you know if you have 700 feet you wouldn't want like 250 ft and then you know 500 feet. You're looking for more of a 350 ft between is between them is

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more what I was looking for. Is there a specific distance that that >> it's typically it's typically per that's usually a local, you know, like and up to the fire chief, you know, it depends. It's like co links and different things that all factor into, you know, what the the local department has available to them, but typically we're looking at

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like 400 feet would be like a maximum is my typical, you know, because usually because usually you have a 200 foot hose would be the assumption. So from that you can go 200 feet in either direction, but if you're not but if you're more than 400 feet, then you're not getting to like that next hydrant, you know, there's a potential gap. So are you saying that uh it depends on the

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equipment the fire department has in a particular community rather than the fire code itself? >> I believe so. Yes. >> But that 400 foot is a pretty standard like assumption. You know that's a pretty typical spacing and see in this case they have a little bit more than that. >> Thank you.

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>> Any questions? >> Anybody else have any questions? >> I I guess general theme on the waiver comments. anything critical there that you see uh that can't be overcome >> just OB this the street opening permit is the big one and then obviously I mean

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the setback has been a concern so I mean that's you know from a technically can they be 20 feet off sure but it's your comfortability with you know that you know resulting setback but from an engineering standpoint I guess it's it's obviously been done before it's been it'll be done in the future but it's a

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it's a concern it's something or you know it's it should be Um, you know, usually the waiver process is like what's the hardship, you know, that you need to be, you know, like can like can those buildings be removed? The answer seems to be no, but we've also talked about alternative, you know, maybe going to threes or fours and can

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those be pulled back. That's the kind of, you know, discussion we want to see on that um to support that waiver. >> And and anything in the general comments that that you saw is critical that couldn't be overcome? >> No. >> Okay. >> Thank you, M. >> Sure.

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>> Great. Thanks. Okay. Anybody from the public want to comment? Come on up. Name and address, please. >> Valerie Harding, 54. >> Welcome back. >> Thank you. 540 Old Meeting House Road.

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Um just to clarify because compared to the last meeting now we have to accept the fact that all the waiverss that the builders have asked for are a done deal. In other words,

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so >> I'm particularly >> accept that. >> Okay. So I'm particularly concerned about two waiverss that have been asked on this project. One is the setbacks of the houses. And my thinking is, well, if there's going to be so much more

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increased traffic on that road to the point of increasing 362 cars at least going in and out every day if the state comes along there. I mean, that's two cars per houses for the

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two total developments coming out on that little area. So, what if the state decides, well, we need to widen that road? What's going to happen to those homes that are 20 ft back instead of the 35 ft?

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Should we be thinking about those homes as well? I mean, I'm sure Mr. Dolly is investing his money and not expecting to have to find out that all of a sudden 5 years down the road the road's going to need to be widened to accommodate all this traffic.

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The second thing is the waiver for Decosta Circle which is you know just below the old meeting house on the curve. The town bylaws state that there's not supposed to be any I'm not using the

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right words, but any roadway within three 300 feet of that area. So, that seems to be well within that um problem area, >> right? Yeah. And I'm wondering what will

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happen there because I know many of the residents on Dosta Circle already have problems with coming out onto that road. They don't happen to be here tonight. They weren't able to come. But >> okay, good. But there,

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>> you know, there is that problem. The third thing I want to say is we all have been coming for nine months and not every you know it's been in litigation but it's been nine months that our homes have been under this

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cloud and in the first paragraph of the 40B application for a developer it states that they should make contact with the Abutters.

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And I saw at the selectman's meeting that Mr. Dolly was asked if he had made contact with the abutters and he said no. It would have been nice if we had heard in the beginning and even now from both

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the developers in question. So that for me is a problem because we're going to still live there. You're going to still have your development. I don't know how it will turn out, but you're still going to have it because I get it. It's business,

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but what's it going to be like? And for the rest of us all here in the room, I hope the developer and his engineers notice that we are all faces of homeowners who have lived there for quite a while and really care about our

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neighborhood. But we don't see the developers acting like they care about our neighborhood. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Come on up, Mrs. Augusta. >> Hi, Susan Augusta, 522 Old Meeting House

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Road. I want to thank Mrs. Harding for her comments. We've all been residents there for over 30 years. Um, our property is along the east side of the plan. At that point, we have a large barn there. We also have a turnout for

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horses. Every summer, our daughter brings her horses down to the Cape for summer vacation. It abuts also what is the dog park. There's going to be some issues of noise between those. So, um I don't want any

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problems in that regard, but I would request that there be consideration made to a tree buffer zone with 10-ft fencing and some kind of um landscaping including trees that don't lose their leaves like arborite or spruce trees. As

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well, there are tall pine tree pine trees behind our barn and if the opportunity to save those is available, we very much would appreciate that. Um, as a school committee member, I want to make it very clear that I'm speaking

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as an individual, but I continue to have reservations, severe safety reservations regarding the plans for school buses, and I appreciate the members comments in that regard. Um, and the storage issue is definitely going to be an issue. So, thank you very much.

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>> Thank you. >> Come on up. Name and address please. >> Keith Loris, 11 Dcasta Circle. Um, question is the very comprehensive traffic analysis never looked at Dcasta

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Circle. It looked at the other roads, right? Uh, I don't know why that was an emission, but uh, I'm concerned about that because that's where I happen to live. Uh, it's a really hairy intersection, the Hatchville, the Y, we're going to have this other development. So all of a sudden all these cars, it's a confusing

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intersection. It's not a typical intersection. It's sort of a rotary, but it's not really. It's a Y-shape. So it's really kind of confusing. Now you're going to have these two high volume driveways. Uh Dosta Circle, it's a it's a curve, right? On our side, I can see down far east side. People on the other

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side, you can't you all know this, you can't see very far down there. And car is definitely a trick. So I'm it's curious to me why uh you know a so affected uh street is not part of their traffic analysis. The Kasa circle is not in there at all.

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>> Thank you. Anybody else? >> Sure. Come on up again. I forgot that I have a petition to submit to the board of 166 people who live completely surrounding the property

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that have signed citing concerns mostly about the traffic and that is our main concern. So I will hand this to you after. >> Sure. Madam Chair, >> just in regard to the people in Dasa

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Circle and everyone here who's concerned about safety, I see very little chance that uh these um developments will escape without a sidewalk in front of them, which is going to open up the uh line of sight

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anyway. But we're never going to uh um forget that concern all through this project because I think it's the number one by far concern and um we take that seriously and eventually there is going to be a sidewalk from Brick Hill Road

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all the way to 151. I mean, when who knows, but that's been on the wish fit list for a long time. And uh we got a mile of sidewalk out of uh the last developer and um there'll be sidewalk in front of this at least up the carriage

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shop road. At least I would hope so. That's all we're we're going to do our best. I feel when we have the traffic person come that we should give him heads up to address the Costa issue too before he comes here.

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>> Yeah. Well, I mean we know the concern and I mean we drive through there. I mean it's >> they shouldn't omit a road like that though. >> It's it's it's a very busy spot for the speed, the average speed. And uh we're going to mitigate as much as we can or

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or certainly try and fight. And then we got our negotiation date, too. >> Okay. Any other further questions up here? Tony, you're all set. Anybody else from the public? Would you like to address anything? Mr. Freeman, we

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haven't even heard from you tonight. >> Playing shy. >> Please don't speak. >> You know me. I'm not shy. >> That's why I asked. Everybody's all set. All right. So for homework next meeting we're going to focus on

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traffic. So let's make sure we do include the Costa neighborhood since it was omitted and it really is important. It's >> Yeah, very important. Um I have storage on my list. You were going to address storage. >> Not next week. Next meeting.

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>> Next meeting. Sorry. Not next week. >> It's 7 >> 16. >> 7:16. >> No. >> 625. >> 625. Yes. 625. So we're going to address storage. We're going to address the calcs for the

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retaining wall that this is what I have anyway. We're going to do costa. Even though we're just focusing on traffic, we still want the information as soon as you can get it for us. Um the site distances we should probably have too those calcs,

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>> right? Did anybody else have any other stuff that we want for the next meeting >> to have to do with traffic? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Or if you need any kind of calculations that you need up front. >> Well, we're just not going to limit ourselves. That's just going to be the headline.

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>> But I mean, just heads up, we're going to need this stuff at some point. A phototric we're going to need at some point. That's a lighting. >> I should have that already. Oh, okay. I didn't see it. >> Um >> 11 >> on on the second link thing. >> It's there. Yeah,

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>> it's there. Okay, good. Don't have to do it then. >> Um, >> the question is, is is dark sky friendly or dark sky compliant? >> Yeah, I think I I I think there was another gentleman in here last time that said that it was going to be dark sky

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friendly. I I don't remember his name. Yeah. >> Yeah. Ski skiill or something like Yeah, I think that person said that. And I would like you I would like personally over by where Mrs. Augusta's barn is since she is talking about noise and

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there will be there are some huge trees like like you can't even hug them sized trees that would be really nice not to just blow down. >> Why you a tree hugger? >> I am a tree hugger. I was going to Yes. No, but there's some really big ones

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right down there and it would be beneficial to all. I mean, for your rental units and for the August and for the horses just to have the trees there and because they're really big trees down there and I think you can get around them even though I know you guys

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just like to scrape it all up and make it one flat pancake. But if there are some trees worth saving, I I know I and I'm sure the the abutters would really appreciate it. And there's some really big ones right over there by the right where the dog park is. right where she said in that corner and right where the

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four units are in that corner there's a lot of really big trees I know you have to clear for that area there but best you can do just give it a give it a look on your plan anyway I would appreciate that and as she said we do encourage um anybody that comes in here to speak with

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their neighbors and I'm I'm not I'm I'm sad that that hasn't happened because this is very very impactful to these people's lives forever and ever even when they go to resell it. It's it's very very impactful and there's been nothing. >> It's generational.

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>> He didn't even know the name of the person that owned the bond when I walked the cider. >> As well as your neighboring developers. >> Yes. Yeah. >> But this is a generational Yeah. >> affected. >> Yeah. >> The odds in the next one. This is going to go on for generations. You're going to affect this community for a long,

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long time. Got to get it right. >> I mean, we encourage it even if you're just building a shed half the time in your neighbor's lot line or close to the neighbor. encourage you to go speak with it. It's neighborly and I really encourage you to do something about that from me anyway.

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Does anybody else have any other >> I'll just continue the dialogue with Thomas. Let's close out open items that uh don't take too much of a heavy lift. So >> yeah, >> just be more efficient on process. >> And will will um Mr. Santos,

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come to the next meeting. >> Okay. >> All right. So, next one's basically traffic, but we'll, you know, do the go over the homework and that that kind of stuff, too. But the traffic's pretty important. So, all right. So, the next meeting is scheduled for 6:25 at at 6.

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And I can turn that into a motion. I'll make a motion to continue to 6:25. >> I'll second that motion, Madam Chair. >> We have a motion in a second. Does anybody have anything further before we vote? Everybody's you're you okay? All right. All those in favor? >> I oppose? None. Thank you all for Well,

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you're not don't have to leave, but thank you all for coming. >> Thank you. >> Do anybody need a break before 809? Okay. >> All right. Do you want a break or anything before >> Adam? Will we be able to get the minutes of

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this meeting? >> Yeah. Ask Ash. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Just n >> I can't write my account. I'd like to. >> It's hard to write down right now. >> Yeah, >> you are. Okay. So,

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>> I might have that. >> That's the 18. Oh, yes. I have that. >> He knows he doesn't have to. >> It's It's a human. We're all still humans here. >> You know, you know the mic. >> 18th. Okay. The 25th we just got.

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>> Say anything. >> Not the night. >> All right. I'm going to clear off this section. Right. >> It's going to be >> God only knows. I got to get another one out. >> July 9th. >> Do we have a Do we have a separate traffic report for 809 sandwich or is

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this the one for zero sandwich? >> And for I look for it too and I didn't see it. I found that one today and I'm like is this it read it and it's >> but yeah but it's not >> yeah some of some of the

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>> I think it's online Frank >> you and I don't do the online thing >> the traffic >> is it online >> traffic for you don't I >> I was wondering >> it was stuck inside then 27 but you don't

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>> I'm just getting stuff out before I start him Vote on engineering. >> Keep a pencil. >> Yeah, I guess. >> Oh, wait a minute. Oh, no. Uh, traffic was big 73.

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>> Ashley, >> didn't that suck? >> I can't write everything down. We get minutes before the next meeting. was uh came out on July 3rd. >> Yeah, because >> last year. >> Yeah.

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>> Yeah. Anything that I just >> I have to go look for that. That's fine. >> I don't want >> Yeah, they're going to be in draft form though. >> Ready to call up. All right, >> you guys got your new new new stuff out.

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>> Yep. >> Whatever it is. >> Guess I need glasses for this. >> Right, we're going to move on to the next hearing tonight. Guess I have to gabble.

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We're moving on to the next hearing which is zero Sandwich Road. >> So now we did open this one up and I think we'll do the same game plan where there's a general overview. Sure. If if that's okay with everybody. Could we do with that please? >> Uh yes, Madam Chair. And for the record,

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my name is attorney Jesse Schmer. I represent the project developer. We're prepared to do an overview uh presentation tonight. Um I'm a little unfamiliar with your technological setup though. Can I plug in a flash drive or my computer? Either

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one to put that up on the screen. >> Ask she knows everything. >> Help you. >> We know the rest. >> Thank you. >> What was your name again, sir? >> Jeffrey Schmer. I didn't get it either. >> It's up there.

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>> Thank you. >> I didn't get your name correctly. What is it? Schumer. >> Uh, yes. Jesse Schmer. It's S C H O M E R. >> Oh, Schmer. >> It's variously pronounced either Schmer or Schumer. And I'll respond to both.

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>> Okay. Maybe I can full screen this so you can see it a little bit better. Shoot. Okay, there we go. Um, so, um, thank you, uh, board members. Um, just a brief presentation

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from us tonight and then we'd be interested in feedback from the board members as well as members of the public who are in the audience tonight. Um, as you know, this project site is directly adjacent to the one that was previously presented to you. It's located at what's numbered zero Sandwich Avenue. I'll just

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>> road I'm I'm sorry. >> Okay. >> Can I ask you one question? >> Sure. >> Were you here for the entirety of the last hearing? >> The majority of it. I would say 95% of it. >> So many of the questions were we're taking copious notes on the issues that you all raised.

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>> Members in the audience raised as well. So, we'll be preparing. took our general temperature. All righty. That's good. >> Understood. Yes. Yes, sir. >> Um so this parcel um we are proposing um currently uh the the previous proposal before the board was for 50 units. It's

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been modified uh since we were previously before you. As the board will recall, uh there was a safe harbor claim with respect to this project that has since been resolved by the housing appeals committee. The revised project is proposing 62 home ownership units as

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well as two additional parcels that we're proposing to either donate to the town, the affordable housing trust, or to a nonprofit for some additional affordable housing units. >> I thought your application was for 60 to the state. >> Correct. And we've been in contact with

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Mass Housing about that. Uh they're comfortable with the project being reviewed on final approval. And that's typical for these. >> They're aware of the two increase. Correct. >> So, what's the total again? >> 62. >> 64 units if the board and the town wants those two additional lots at the end.

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>> Were we notified? >> No, >> I'm sorry. >> Were we notified? >> Uh, that I can't speak to, Madam Chair. U, I was not. >> What's your project? >> I was not previously representing uh the developer when that change was made. So, I'll have to look into that. And if proper notice does need to be made, um,

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we're we're certainly notifying um you with the filing of the updated plan. Um but if if further notice needs to be provided, we will correct the record. >> Getting bigger. >> Yeah. >> So um as before, do you want to address that?

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>> Yeah. I mean, you'd need a to hear from the subsidizing agency if they approve that because it's an increase. >> We have nothing. So what I can say is for changes like this, the subsidizing agencies as is provided in the 4DB regulations

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typically reviews these kind of changes on final approval because project changes whether they be increases in units or decreases in units happen in just about every 40B project. So >> but those usually happen during the process not you know hi here we are

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we're increasing. Correct, >> Madam Chair. It I mean they do have to go to the subsidizing agency. It's true what Attorney Schmer is saying that typically they will say we're going to either defer on it or we'll approve it for now subject to the final review. So in other words, once you go through the

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permitting process, they address it in the final review, but you should have some type of correspondence about a communication with them and what their ruling was on that >> because it's an increase. So if he if he said, you know, the original was 60 and

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we're coming in tonight for 55, that's fine. It's within the scope of what the PEL was, but you do need some type of confirmation from the subsidizing agency that it was reviewed. >> I mean, the plans I have are only for 50. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

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>> So, I can I'm going to put that on my on my to-do list to supplement the record with confirmation from the subsidizing agency. >> I didn't even know we I guess we continue. Yeah, I would definitely continue hearing him tonight for sure, but you definitely do want to get to the bottom of that.

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>> Okay, so u as before the original 50 units that were proposed in the previous filing, those are proposed to be uh restricted as 20% of those units at 50% of area median income. That's deeply affordable housing units. Those are all

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for sale units. The additional 12 units that we're proposing are single family homes. Those are being uh proposed to be deed restricted at 80% of area median income. And the restriction on the additional two house lots is uh to be determined. We haven't we haven't

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decided. >> What was the number of of of so-called affordable units? >> So it would be 20% of the >> Well, now the new number is 62. So, >> so I'm I'm just going to do the math and and if I can ask for your indulgence, I started my day today in Austin, Texas.

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So, I'm I'm a little bit tired. So, 20% of the the 50 units, so that's uh 10 uh units. And then 25% of the 12, that's four. So, that would be 14 affordable housing units. >> Thank you. >> Will we get a copy in the record of that summary you've got up there?

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>> I'm happy to submit that. It's all all the information >> all the information is in the record, but I'll submit it for record. Well, I like the way it's presented. That's all. >> Okay. >> Certainly. >> So, just moving to the next slide and make sure I didn't skip any and I did.

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Um, this outlines again what I've just gone through the 62 units and the two additional house lots at the rear as well as the project history. And I'll move on to the uh overall town site plan. I put in star here. This is the project site. the development that you

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were just reviewing parcel directly adjacent there. Uh and we did hear uh some of the board's concerns as I noted to you sir um regarding that project. What I'll note is this project is approximately 50% of the density by land area of that compared to that project.

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So it's significantly less dense based on the lot size. As you can see it's significantly larger lot and that is with the proposed increase in unit count. Um, we are also, I would say, open to >> That doesn't affect our major concerns. >> Understood. We'll we'll be we'll go

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through those at length, I'm sure, during during the hearing >> and do our best to address those. Um, with respect to the driveway, we we are open to a conversation with that developer about perhaps a shared driveway. There there >> and a shared property line would benefit

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the both of you >> and make the whole thing better. >> A lot better. there there is potentially also there's an opportunity to provide some through as a secondary access between the properties but this is a conversation we'll have to have with that developer and as I said we're we're

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open to having >> or even if we got inside and turned left and right >> that would certainly and and then it would make the bus um >> uh situation because we don't know where I mean but >> he just all of it better >> okay do you think that's possible to

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have that conversation prior to our next hearing perhaps an initial conversation. >> Okay, that's fine. >> At least maybe approach the developer next door and then you know >> we understand this is right in the very beginning and and we just want this

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thing to be as good as it can be for everyone especially the people in this room. >> Understood. >> Do you have a set of plans for us to even look at? >> Those were submitted to the board I believe a week ago. I

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>> That's what you have. >> This has the 62 units on it. >> Dated June 1st, 2026. >> Correct. >> But it doesn't have the Do we have a set of plans with all the units on it? >> You do. >> This has 62. >> That That's them. >> Oh, okay. >> Yes. >> Where are mine? >> I don't think so. >> It's dated >> June

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>> June 1st, 2026. >> No, no, no, no. >> Where'd you get that? >> I'm special. >> Mine says August. >> Well, we know that. >> Mine says Augustine says August 2025. You're you're you're gonna >> I don't have anything up there that we

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need to get us through the initial. Okay. >> I looked at projected >> Suzanne >> I mean I I just went through the >> I what was listed the project that I have is a 50 unit project.

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>> Yeah. Yeah. That's Well, we have >> crazy. >> I don't know where Tony got it but he's got those. >> All right. I found something. All right. So, this is trash, right? This >> we need to get I don't know what you've got there in front of you. This is a 50. >> I think we can get through this as long as you're very explicit.

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>> We can submit additional paper copies for as many as you need. Uh so that everybody has one. >> I can't read it on the computer. I'm blind and one eye can't see on the other. >> I would that's the >> If you can, Suzanne, I try to clarify tonight. I I've got a 50 unit project. I went through everything in detail of

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what was posted online >> and Ashley just >> gave me the updated one, but that's the 50 unit plan. >> I did the same. I did my homework on >> I don't know what's >> And what's the date on that? >> Uh the August plan. >> Yeah. >> August. That's what we have.

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>> Yeah. So >> what's the date on your plan, Tony? June 1st. >> June 1st. >> Are you looking at the 809 plan? >> No. Smithfield comprehensive fund. >> That would be embarrassing. No. >> Okay. I found nine. It was attached to that. Look by that lump of traffic

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stuff. That's where mine was. >> All right. So, we need we need the six two plus two. >> Yeah. >> This is crazy. >> We all have what was submitted. I believe it was last week. >> Yep. On the 4th. >> Yes. You all have copies that were

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dated. It's in the bottom right. Revised comprehensive permit 6126. >> Where did we get those? >> Last week. Why does it say 61 here? >> Oh, so it was in the bottom right. >> All I did was >> reflected in the plan, but not any of the narrative or the application

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material. >> Sorry, we just, you know, I mean, it's a slap here. I'm taken back myself. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> We can keep going. All right. This is >> Sorry, we're just trying to get >> No, no, no. Let's Let's all make sure we're get stuck, we'll stop you. >> Understood.

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>> Yeah. Actually, hang on one second if you would. >> Yeah. >> Tony, did you look at the plan? Is it 50 units the June? >> I'm I'm just trying to figure out what I actually did look at because I'm now confused. >> I took everyone's I thought the whole bundle was mine

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>> cuz Ashley just confirmed the plan that she gave me was the updated plan, but she thought it was 50 units. >> I have 50 on this plan. >> That's all I studied was 50. >> This is nuts. >> 50 units. >> Maybe it's on this one, Jim. It was a

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million. Here's the plan. Here's lot one around >> and yours is dated June. >> Yeah, these updated ones may only show 50. >> Do you know Jesse? I mean we can >> there are two there are two parts of

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this. One is one is page um >> page three and that shows the 13 units and then there's page after that it shows 50 units. >> So we have both sets in here.

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>> Yeah. So it's a little confusing. >> Mary and Joseph. All right. So page three shows 60. Maybe my page three doesn't show. So one of one shows 13. >> G1 of one.

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>> These are really oddly marked. >> And well C201 shows 13. >> C201 shows third. So that's the >> No, that shows more. One, two, three, four, five. >> That's 14 lots on C201 there. So that's the 12. So this is 14 >> plus the two houses that we're looking

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to Tony, >> right? >> That's sheet 2011, C201. And in my >> this is only half of plan. >> That's the rear port part of the property. >> So the front part of the property. >> So I'm supposed to attach to

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>> Can you Can you put that up in the screen? >> Yes, I can. >> Because we need to get on the same page here. >> Yep. This is nuts. so to speak. >> Buckle up. >> Yes, there's 14 in from the back. >> It's on another like page. Yeah, I can't

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even put it together. >> I do have it all, Ashley. I apologize. Uh, >> it's was with that traffic. didn't tuck this in my >> t traffic plan for >> Yeah. Did you find yours?

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>> Traffic plan. >> Let's see. >> I think it might have been on top. I don't know where mine was. >> So, this is the this is the plan the 61 plan that was filed last week.

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>> We like one page that shows the project. There is I believe >> so there's a there's the survey plan that shows the entire site >> in here. >> All right, we can continue. We'll just blow through >> keep going and see what happens. >> You can't put something like this up there.

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>> We can we can put that together. We we'll we'll speak with the engineer and and get you everything on one sheet. It'll be a smaller size plan obviously. >> I want to see the plan. >> Understood. The way that they did it was was on two sheets. So I'll I'll make sure that they they get that in the in

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the plan set. >> So just add that on these are this right here. >> Okay, we can continue. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> So don't they have to is are they allowed to go in the easement?

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building the go under it. >> There's no there's no homes being proposed within the easement. They're just crossing it. >> It's hard to tell with a plan that's like this. >> Yeah, we'll we'll go. It's coming up very soon. >> Okay. Sorry. >> No, no, no. Please don't. Just trying to get it together here. That's all.

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>> So, this what this is the the tax parcel here. You can see it's approximately four 14.63 acres. That's uh over three times the size of the adjacent parcel that was the the previous project that's being proposed. Have you been to the property? I >> I have been by it. I've not been into

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the property. I have not been in into the property. >> Uh single access out on Sandwich Road. Um and you see the yellow portion there. That's the utility easement that you were just referencing. This is the age restricted 50 unit the the previous iteration of the project.

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You can see access road coming in off of Sandwich Road. Full access around the entire development. There's a mix of three-bedroom and twobedroom uh single family style cottages and duplex cottages. It's 45 of these units are

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two-bedroom and uh five of these are threebedroom. Um there's some community green spaces I'll show you here. Um in this area here, which I'm highlighting with the mouser mouse cursor, an additional one here. These are also anticipated where

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the storm water structures are going to be located. Um, and there are sidewalks throughout the uh the project uh running throughout this area here and I'm just highlighting them so it'll be walkable for the residents.

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This is the civil plan. So, it drills down into additional detail. You can see the units uh the single family style cottages as I mentioned and the duplexes. There are some cutins that you'll see in the road. These are guest spaces. They're all around the the

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development site. The roadway itself, the paved width of it is 20 ft. The actual roadway width, the layout of it is uh somewhere, it looks like it's about 40 feet, uh perhaps 42 feet. So, there's some additional space there to

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widen the road if the fire chief feels that it's necessary to do that. But, it will be fully compliant with all fire code requirements. Um, and as I mentioned, this portion of the project has full circular access. So, fire vehicles coming in to access any of these homes will be able to go in and

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around the site without needing to back up. So, the cottages, as I mentioned, they're they're single family homes and duplexes. I'll show you the layouts uh and the elevations. These are the

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proposed elevations. The cottages, single family style, garage facing. They're all two stories. Those are the duplexes down there. We have four unit types for this portion of the project and these are the floor plans showing you here. Garage entrance here, front

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porch, master bedroom on the ground floor. These are all age restricted units. So, it's important that those uh units all have a master bedroom on the ground floor. uh D uh dining and living room area in the rear of the of the

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unit, kitchen in the back. U and then the you can see the staircase coming up there to the second bedroom uh on the second floor there. This is unit uh unit plan B. Similar layout also twobedroom.

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Unit plan C with the master bedroom up front there. loft and bedroom on the second floor. There are >> those gray areas, porches. >> That's uh it looks like that's uh residences residential area below, but it's not it's not a full story. It's

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like a half story in that area. So, there's there's no porches proposed back there. >> Upstairs isn't as big as down. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Do they have basements? >> No. >> Slabs, >> I believe. So, yeah.

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more storage. >> Wait, wait, wait. Sir, >> go back to that one. >> Up if you're going to ask. Sorry. >> Any chance of storage going into a knee wall there or what? However that works. No, obviously it's much lower. >> Something we can look at. Um, you know,

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perhaps there's there's some area on on these parcels for little sheds, that sort of thing. But these are really >> I don't see that happening. >> No, >> these are really intended to be smaller sort of starter homes. And these are again, these are deeply affordable units, restricted said they were um for

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the elderly, not starter homes. >> 55 plus. So they're >> most people start a little younger. >> 55. >> I take the point. It's the the idea is you can have both. >> Yeah. The the idea is and I apologize. I

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misspoke using the term starter home. It's smaller homes for for for folks of lower means and we would expect them to have less of a need for storage in that case. But it it's a point well. >> They're going to have to start getting used to not having storage in this

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starter home. >> I'll take the point and and we'll we'll ask the architect to take a look at that where >> that's the kind of things we do. You you saw us before. >> I did. I did. We were taking notes back there too. >> So this portion of the project, this is

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the rear portion. I'll just come up. This is the utility ement running through the site. There we've got an access road going to the back. These are the 12 single family homes. Those are all four bedroomedroom units. It's a little bit small. These two are

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proposed. >> How many square feet are those? >> Four bedrooms. >> Four bedrooms. That's what they >> for the elderly. >> These are not age restricted. No, >> these ones are not. >> Yeah. >> Oh, another twist. >> Yeah. Let me just >> Goodness gracious. >> Let me just clarify for you because

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>> um and again it's good to be with you. I'm George Pooie from KPR. I'm your council. Um, >> so on on that issue of the change, it >> you did actually get notice on the 809 one. >> Yeah. >> And and what happened on that one was they made the change. They wanted to go

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from the rental to the ownership. >> Yep. >> Mhm. >> Yep. >> Uh the town raised an issue with the subsidizing agency and then they reversed the change. So they didn't end up with the change. So in that case, you actually did get a notice >> Yeah. from the developer that was to the

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subsidizing agency copied to the executive authority >> and and so I just wanted to tell you because this is a I mean I'm I'm not I don't mean this in an argumentative manner but it's obviously a substantial change with four bedroomedroom units added

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>> that are 14 units >> not 55 and up >> to right to money grab >> to also a 50 unit project >> so I I just want to just tell you and >> I I know Jesse too off. I can speak to him, you know, when we're outside the

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hearing, but I'm just going to advise you and and the public as well. If the applicant desires to change aspects of his proposal that would affect the project eligibility requirements after it has received a determination of project eligibility,

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it and remember their project eligibility letter is for a 50 unit project. >> It's actually for 60. >> 60. >> Their original is for 60. >> No, no, no. It was 60 even >> the original one. >> It was >> and then he went down to 50 after the

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hearing or during the hearing. So they shall notify the subsidizing agency in writing of such changes with a copy to the department. That's the the the old um they used to call EOHLC the department of

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>> community development uh and the chief executive executive officer of the municipality and the board. So you should have gotten notice of that change to the subsidizing agency. Then the and what Jesse was saying earlier is

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oftentimes the subsidizing agency will defer but the and this happened in 809. It says um if the subsidizing agency finds that the changes are substantial,

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it shall ordinarily defer any review until either the board has issued a comprehensive permit or the application has been denied and the applicant has lodged an appeal with the committee at which time the subsidizing agency shall reaffirm, amend, or deny its determination. But there's an exception

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for that deferring and that's in a parenthesy that says except if the applicant, the chief executive office of the municipality or the board request otherwise. In other words, they can provide notice of a subsidizing agency that we think that this is a substantial

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change and you need to revisit the project eligibility letter. So that process did happen in 809 and what happened in 809 after the executive authority raised an issue that they objected to the change from the uh rental to the

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ownership then the developer ended up going back and and withdrawing the requested change. So there there should have been some notice to you um you know of of the change if this is a substantial change from what was

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presented before you before. I mean to me just on my preliminary review it looked like a 50 unit project to me. >> So this would be a 28% difference >> right >> which is much more than 10% and >> I would have to look at the original project eligibility letter again and say

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it's within the scope >> but it sounds like it isn't. It sounds like it's something that they should have gone back, provided notice to the subsidizing agency and provided notice to the board and the executive authority so that they can raise an issue and ask the subsidizing agency. Don't defer

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review until the end of the process. Review it now as to whether it's a substantial change requiring you to change the project eligibility letter. So, it's just sort of a preliminary matter that you want to get to the bottom of. >> Yeah. Immediately >> action with this. >> Yeah.

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Does changing the style from going 55 and up to not 55 and up. >> Yeah, you'd have to look at the project. >> It definitely was for 55 and up. >> Yeah, >> that's what they applied for in their eligibility list. She'll bring it up for >> and now we're changing it to not 55 and

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up. That's you just said fourbedroom, not 55 and up. I mean, we'd have you'd have to have, as Frank was saying earlier, he he liked the way it was sort of set out about what the >> the you know, the project particulars are that you have to kind of look at it and line it up and what are all the

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changes and do you you know have an objection that you want to lodge with the subsidizing agency that you need to revisit the project eligibility letter. Is it a project that's substantially changed and is it has it changed in the scope and scale of the project that they

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want to revisit it and not just let it go before you and defer a ruling on that until later? >> So you're recommending that you should move forward and do that. Is that what you're telling? >> I'm recommending we need to get to the we need to >> get the if notice was made to the

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subsidizing agency and you know was that >> they know it's not a 55 and up anymore too. So portion of it. >> So potentially we should move any further forward till we know. >> Well, I >> I I the the only re Yeah. So Ashley's showing me the original PEL is for 60

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age restricted home ownership units. >> So it's a different project for sure. There definitely should have been just Yeah, >> that's the other. >> There definitely should have been notice to the subsidizing agency and with a copy to the board and the executive authority of the select board. you

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should have had the opportunity to go through the process that they did on 809. Having said that, I don't recommend that you just clear the room out and we wait. Everybody's shown up and >> I agree. >> You know, cover as much substantive

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ground as you can, but let's definitely get to the bottom of this uh issue because you definitely have to. >> Thank you, >> Madam Chair. May I just understand something? >> Sure. So what we now have in front of us is a 50 unit 50 age restricted 55 and up

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on the front portion and we have a 14 unit single family home subdivision at the end of it now. Two of which they're talking about donating to something. I don't know what.

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And they are 80% AMR. All of them. >> Correct. >> Every one of them. >> Correct. >> All 14 are what? 80% 80% AMI >> 80% of AMI >> for sale. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> Substantial. >> Okay.

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>> So, we all I'll confer with uh Attorney Pooie and and I agree we do need to get to the bottom of this. If we need to supplement the record with the notice that was provided, we will definitely do that. If we need to provide additional notices, we will we will definitely do that. What I will say, the board does

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have the right, as attorney Puchcci correctly noted, to ask the subsidizing agency to look at this change. Now, what the subsidizing agency is doing is looking at a project really from like space. Basically, they're looking at is it an eligible developer? Is it an

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eligible site? Do we have control of the site? Are there major issues of health and safety that would be apparent from a single site plan um that that would impede the development of this parcel? So, we can we can go through the process. We're happy to do it. You're

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entitled to it. I've never seen the subsidizing agency say no to a change like this. That that being said, that's that's my >> I've never seen this kind of thing happen either. >> I mean, the only I don't want to go tit for tat. The only the only thing I would point out is I agree with that

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generally. 809 it definitely happened. It mattered. You you you object. Well, I advised the with town council. We advised the executive authority. They notified the subsidizing agency and the developer ended up withdrawing that

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request. So even though the subsidizing agency will typically defer, you want to exercise your rights under it uh because it had a substantive result in in the 809 Sandwich Road matter. exercise our rights. Okay,

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>> Mrs. Augusta, do you have a quick question? >> You got to come up, please. You got to come up. Thank you. >> Sorry. >> Procedural. >> Would this mean Susan Augusta 522 meeting house road? Would this mean that the the uh butters on Bittersweet? Were

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they notified? >> We don't know. Boy, we don't know. >> Good question. Well, >> no, they wouldn't have been. >> No. >> So, is then is it properly before? So, people aren't notified. >> That's the thing that you you have to go

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>> I mean, >> right, if they didn't I mean that you know to her to the lady's point is >> if if they didn't know about that part of the project before, maybe they don't keep showing up and and unbeknownst to

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them, there's something that could potentially affect them. So, that's why to us. It's a surprise to them. >> They and they could maybe not be coming because they don't know about that. >> So, we just deferred to the people that

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are here. Uh why aren't we deferring to those people? >> But if it's not properly noticed, >> that's a problem. >> The original the the project was properly noticed. What what has to occur? >> Not as presented. >> Correct. But they have the right to make

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changes. They just have to seek that they have to provide the notice of the subsidizing agency. >> Unfortunately, the abuter wouldn't get the notice that >> that the commenter is saying, >> but the the town would the the executive authority would get the notice. The

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board gets the notice. You have the right to say to the subsidizing agency, we want you to, you know, act on this now. We want you to deal with the project eligibility letter. And then it would depending on the result of that it would become part of the public process.

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You'd have posted online that this is now a 64 unit project with the updated plan. So but even then it assumes a lot. It assumes that those people are watching, you know, the project and seeing if anything changed. >> Good question.

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>> So it's not it's not great. Let's put it that way. I don't love it. >> No. >> At all. In the original notice that went out to the public, it's 300 feet from property lines. >> Right. Yes. >> Right. >> Now, the property lines here have not changed, have they? >> They have not.

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>> So, anybody within 300 ft of the property line >> got noticed. >> Was properly noticed. >> And whatever happens inside the property after that is not subsequently noticed again. >> But, right, that's not subsequently noticed. But to the commenter's point,

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it it's if you're in a butter there on this part with the extra 14 units and you looked at the original plan, you may say, "Hey, this is not my problem. I've got plenty of buffer and you don't pay attention to it ever again." >> I understand. But the original notice

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that went out, but if you >> notify everybody within 300 ft of the property line, you've covered yourself on that aspect, right? >> Correct. You're right. >> All right. But if we look at this, I mean, are we I don't know. I I certainly don't like what's this is bad

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>> doing. This is bad. >> Yeah. >> Well, >> so for for the legal notice the as you as you mentioned, >> the legal notice is cool. >> Legal med notice is is fine. There's no prohibition for the board if you feel it

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appropriate to issue new notices to abutters. something you can do if you think that they that there are folks behind this area of the site that would be surprised by this. Um they would not they would not have received a notice if if they're not here tonight. >> All all of those rules that we're we're

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looking at >> are within the realm of a nonsubstantial change. But what you have here is 14* 2 is a 28% difference on a 50 unit project. I mean, the math's pretty simple, and I think

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we're out of a gray area into a a no area. >> Do we do we even have elevations for the houses? >> We do. Um, >> for the new ones, for the four bedrooms, >> I don't have them in these plans in the 61. I >> thought you had everything over there. >> I'm lying.

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>> I believe these cover the new houses as well. I'll have >> to They're just the same thing. >> I'll have to get confirmation of that, but I'll I'll I believe that's that's accurate. Yes. Well, >> I don't even know what questions to ask. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> I mean, we're we're going down the same

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road. It's a very preliminary presentation that >> I could ask a good question. What's the distance from the hammerhead at the new fourbedroom houses to the to Sandwich Road? >> Hammerhead. >> That was a hammerhead. See it down there? >> A nice Yeah. From there to

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>> the linear distance from Sandwich Road. I don't have that figure on. >> It's got to be 800 feet. >> Yeah. It's more >> distance is 120 ft. >> Is it 150? >> No, you don't. >> That's only on that part. That's not on everything in front of it. That's all the way back by the power lines. >> Yeah, >> that goes all the way to beyond the

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power lines. It goes all the way to bittersweet and none of those people are here. >> Um, but >> I feel bad for the bittersweet people. >> So, what that to the to the point that was raised regarding the previous project about fire access, the the state fire code requirements for turnarounds

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cannot be waved by the board. were required to comply with them for all 40B projects. Just note that there's some additional room here. These these lots can be rejiggered if they need to be to make some room for a turnaround. >> They've been they've been rejigged

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tonight. >> I I'm only making the point that it's if if the fire chief feels very strongly that there needs to be a more robust turnaround, it's possible. >> The fire chief hasn't seen this. These are all >> not to my knowledge. >> Yeah. I mean, you need to restart that process because Norina and Ashley are

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very diligent on seeking the town department comments right at the beginning. >> All the town comments that you have are on the other plan. >> So, it's you're going to have to reinitiate that process. Very important. >> You'd think that with all the time we've had.

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>> Anyway, continue. >> Anytime you put a culdeac in, you should. So, >> yeah, >> that's that's the end of the slideshow. So if if there are additional questions that the board members have, uh it was a it was an overview presentation. We'll have further presentations by civil architecture and the uh traffic

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engineer. >> Okay. Um so questions since we have a new set of plans in front of us, I'm sure we're all ready. >> Um >> I think you garnered as much from the previous meeting as you have from this. >> Yes.

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I'm we >> keep that all in mind going forward. >> So you have to do all new storm water, all new traffic, all new all that >> traffic study was submitted last week. There's there's a full traffic review storm water >> and that's including the extra with the

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fourbedroom people, >> correct? Yes. >> That's a lot of more cars, four bedrooms, a lot of way more water. >> Here's your traffic study. >> I'll read that. >> We get more time. The as far as storm water is concerned, we haven't submitted a drainage report because the drainage

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is preliminary at this point. We're showing the locations and the engineer will discuss in a broad sense the what we're proposing to do in terms of what systems it'll be a standard. I I anticipate subsurface drainage structures um in those green areas and

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there's there's ample space on the site for those to be looked at. Madam >> Madam Chair, quick question. So, all tonight was about was you telling us the plan has changed. >> This is what it looks like. >> Yes. >> And that there's more to come

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>> and that's it. And then you want to end the meeting. >> We're happy to stay as long as you want. If you have questions, but that's that's the extent of my presentation. >> How can we ask you if you're not an engineer? I mean, I've got rating questions. I've got utility questions. I've got emergency access questions. I

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mean, these are all things that you can handle. Tonight was for engineering. >> We'll have to we'll have to have the engineer come back at a future meeting. >> Well, my 400 pages is just for that. >> Understood. I can I can dabble in in engineering questions, but I wouldn't

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feel comfortable getting into the specifics >> and I don't think that would be a good use of your time either. >> No. >> One good takeaway, they want to discuss maybe one entrance and exit. >> There you go. Now, you saw me um >> going to happen. I feel you should meet with the people. Well, now you're going to have to meet with the bittersweet

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people, too. And I I feel you should be meeting >> hopefully it's not bittersweet. >> So, my clients have had a a meeting with the >> but I believe uh black jackets were uh were were worn at that meeting, but we have met with the abutters. Yes,

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>> you have met with the abutters. When did that happen? >> When did that happen? >> Um it was a few months ago. It was a um >> let them know who you are. >> Name and address, please. >> Michelle Cavan. I live on Martha's Vineyard. Hi J. >> You're not from film. Okay.

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>> No. So, it was several months ago when we um met with a very full house. I think some of these people probably were there. Um it was at the community center. Um very very full house. >> And how did it go? Did they know about

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the extra 14 units? >> Um well, I I will tell you um there was discussion that there was a possibility of it increasing. Mhm. >> And they didn't give any numbers though. >> Um I do believe numbers were discussed.

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>> Good. >> Maybe. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Wow. Well, I urge you to meet with the public again and inform them since numbers might not have been discussed about the increase here.

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>> I I'm just curious what someone's uh uh interest from Martha's Vineyard is in this. Yeah. Uh, what's your stake in this? >> She's she's a membership of the development team. She she happens to live on Martha's Vineyard. I I don't live in Valmouth myself. >> Okay. All right.

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>> They're the owners of the property. >> Okay. Anybody have any further questions up here? >> Just hopefully we cover. >> Yeah. Hopefully we get a real plan and you know Yeah. >> I mean, he certainly came left here with a good sense of >> Jim has a question. Council, the one

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thing I just that I'd like an answer for at the next meeting. I I'm a little put back, I think, with the rest of the board about this sudden change in additions, but all of your affordable units now appear to be based on your testimony off on this piece of land that's offset of the electrical

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easement, and I'm reading the plan. Why is it that they get a gravel driveway and not a paved one? That all of the affordable units, according to the plan that you've submitted, you don't even pave their driveways. That's very concerning. I'll I'll bring that concern to the

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civil engineer. I don't know the reason why that that design choice was made, but I'll note it as as a concern and ask them to address it. The reason why >> George, if I'm correct, it they're supposed to be spread out in the development. >> Yeah, >> that's not spreading them out. That's

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>> So, to be clear, there will be market rate and affordable units in this component. So, 25% of these new units are affordable. Oh, so they're not all >> they're not they're not they're not segregated. If if I gave that impression and I misspoke, I apologize. The 50

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units will be interspersed 20% these 25% all interspersed and that's overseen by the subsidizing agency. Even if we wanted to put all the affordable units in the back like that, >> I'm sorry. >> They don't know this, right? >> They they they are aware of this and we'll again I'll confirm with your

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council and correct any record that needs to be corrected. Madam Chair, can we just ask that whatever happens next when they come before us that they give us uh a an executive summary of all of this? Something that we can read in advance and understand what

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>> seven days. >> Yes. At least seven days in advance. >> Absolutely. >> And a plan that's not like a jigsaw puzzle would be good, too. >> Yeah. >> Understood. Saying >> yes, >> we're easily confused. >> Question. >> Go ahead, Jim. council,

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is there flexibility with the a 55 age restricted issue? And the reason I asked the question is that um I'm hoping the development team has read the town's housing production plan. Restricted housing is the last thing that Falmouth needs. There are numerous

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age restricted uh projects in this town. Some are condominiums otherwise. The town is desperate for housing and then taking a significant amount of the working age population u be and being ineligible to apply or live is just it's not helpful. So I

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don't know what their flexibility on that is but it's kind of the last thing that I think found with these right now is 55 restricted more 55 restricted housing. >> Good point. >> That's why you didn't get the lip. I'll I'll discuss that with with my clients. I I don't know if there's flexibility now. So, just to make sure I'm clear,

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you would prefer >> now how as opposed to when >> I I'm I'm sorry, I didn't >> You said the flexibility now. >> I I don't know if there is or not. I don't want to commit one way or the other. >> It it is your right under the CMR. It's your right to to put forward the project. My personal feeling is I would

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prefer that uh 55 restriction be struck from the entire project, but I understand you have a marketing plan and so on. just giving a little back based on the town's uh local needs. >> Okay, that's that's good feedback. I appreciate that. I I was a little surprised to hear it. Usually

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communities do want the the aid restriction because it >> keeps kids out of the school system. >> Kids out of the school system, less traffic. Uh >> the 21 to 55 demographic is the one that is shrinking rapidly in this town. >> Understood. Okay, I'll I'll take that

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back to my Suzanne on um to Jim's point too. It's helpful if a developer looks at the town department comments and has a reply like and and that you schedule it one of your topics at a future hearing date for

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developers reply to town department comments because Jim's comment is clear. I saw that in there as well under from the housing director right >> above the 55. >> That's why they didn't receive a lip. >> Yeah. >> They didn't want 55. What I'm saying is you want to schedule at some point in time just like you schedule a discussion

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on civil engineering traffic have a developer response to the town comments that are in there. >> So we'll get you the referrals as soon as we can. >> Thank you. >> May I say one more thing too? >> Yeah, go ahead. One of the things I do find very disturbing is to get a traffic

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study like this unbound and it just it's very difficult to review and um somewhat disrespectful to the board when we get these things. So the next time we're going to have an engineering report well an executive

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summary plans that we can understand. Uh, we're gonna have I hope some peer engine has a pair engineer been May I ask this? Has a peer engineer been hired >> and the pair traffic engineer? >> We're working on it. >> Yeah, I think that's >> correct. But we don't

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>> have they put any money in the 53g account. >> We need to do >> these things have to all be taken care of because we have nothing to talk about if you don't do these things. >> I mean that that would come after they make their presentation from their project team. So,

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>> but can I mad chair, may I just say this though? >> We're trying to get through this and understand this quickly. Sometimes you just kind of have to do things. >> All right. You know, we're going to look at the u the engineering, storm water management, all that. You know, we're going to look at traffic. Just get the peer engineer done.

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>> We have no objection to that. If you're if >> just get it done, put the money in the 53G account. Get it done. Let the town hire where they're going to hire so we can keep moving on this thing. >> No objection whatsoever. I agree. Don't and don't and just don't throw these things at us like this. >> My apologies. It it wasn't intended as

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disrespectful that they're not bound. >> Go ahead, M. >> And I'd like to add to this and I added it uh Sandwich Road. This thing isn't numbered properly. It's not bound. What happens if one of us dumps this on the floor like I did with Sandwich Road?

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>> Yeah. I mean, maybe that helped me go through it as much as I did, but uh it's it's really I don't know if we should uh amend um the rules we've been going through. We are going to have a come back to Jim with I'd like to thank you very much for taking the initiative.

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>> We are going to have a traffic night, so maybe they could do a condensed version or something, >> but I mean it should be known that in in the future. I mean, we're looking for >> Yeah. >> you know, numbered from one to 630 or however many are in here. I mean this is

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>> can tell you that the traffic study does have an executive summary in the front and what I'll do after the hearing is I'll uh confer with the traffic engineer and ask him to put together bound copies for all the >> great and numbered >> the way he presents it one to 173

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>> because even with an executive summary I go I go back and I I I look into the report at you know certain impacted areas or whatever if I want to go back there's no way I can find the page in here. I mean, and to be honest with you,

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I think sometimes they do it on purpose. >> In this case, I it was a function of >> Oh, okay. In the other cases, it was Yeah. Yeah. Right. Okay. I I just woke up. Anyway, it just it's easier for us. I mean, we should be considered in this

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somewhere along the line. What is he charged to do besides engineering? >> Everything. >> We're going to do >> everything. >> Everything else. Okay. >> I think we also want to report on the uh attempt to communicate with the

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developer Dolly next door. I think Chie, as far as I'm concerned, >> one single entrance serving both of these would make both projects better >> work. Yeah. >> Much safer. And there isn't anybody who does up these 150 page or whatever that

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doesn't know that's absolute fact. >> Um, and >> right we all got to get through this. >> Well, I I'll ask does anybody from the public want to comment on this? What's happened here tonight? >> Good to see you again, Mrs.

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>> You have a civil tongue in your mouth. >> Okay. Valerie Harding, 540 Old Meeting House Road. This is a smoke and mirrors show. Yes, we did have a meeting after pressuring Mr.

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He came. He was very contentious. He did not like hearing our concerns and at which point he told us that because we had stalled the project, he was going to punish us

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by increasing the density >> and he told us he was going to increase it to 60 units. >> At which point several of Bututters walked out realizing that there was going to be no talking to him. He really

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did not want to hear what we had to say. So we tried very hard and I am sorry to say that after researching his other projects if he is still with Atwood

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if that's still your company's name Atwood it's does not have a good reputation. They have several projects before the vineyard and the vineyard well has quoted the town of Oakluffs quoted

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him as misusing the state 40B bylaws. His traffic study history with the vineyard was not done in the summer as requested and he has had a history of quote not filing all the needed reports in a timely manner. When we went to walk the property last November, he and his

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lawyer had agreed that the walkthrough would in the proposed roadway would be cleared for foot traffic and it was not done. >> Yep. >> So, um the development of this project, this property is very poorly planned.

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Yes, we need homes for young families. Mr. Cummings stated at the first meeting that these homes were going to cost a million dollars. He stated that they were going to be homes for 55 and older because he had studied the needs of

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Falmouth and that the needs of Falmouth were that the people could sell their own homes and downsize into his milliondoll homes. To my mind, that was a very ridiculous way of reasoning. I don't know anybody

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who's going to sell their home in Felmouth and move into a million-doll home to downsize, let alone that it doesn't have any storage, no basement, and live within 10 ft of their neighbor. It's just not realistic.

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He used the same slide presentation he used for us in 2017 for his presentation to the vineyard for several developments. really not even a new slide to the vineyard. He quoted the same so-called study and used the same

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reasoning that older people would be selling their homes to younger people on the vineyard. Therefore, I contend he never really studied Falmouth's housing needs or situation. If he had really studied Falmouth, he would have noticed how many young

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craftsmen are traveling to the vineyard from Felmouth every day. We see these craftsmen parking their vehicles at the harbor or they're from over the bridge. None can live in Falmouth or or on the vineyard. Same for teachers, police, and hospital workers. All of us here,

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most of us here grew up here. We know how difficult it is to get a house here and make a living. We do not need many people that are over 55 coming from over the bridge to buy

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these homes, adding to our continuing ongoing problem of not being able to keep workers in our hospitals, our schools, our police department. So, I just feel this is the real problem and

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what these people are proposing and how they've gone about proposing it. I'm sorry, it's been very shoddy. It doesn't respect the neighborhood. He didn't respect the neighborhood the day we met with him. It was terrible.

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Um, so at this point, I'm very against it. And of course, my main concern still comes back to the traffic. We'll now have with the added homes, 98 homes with only two cars each, 196 cars entering

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and exiting every day, 392 cars going in and out of that roadway. That doesn't even count if they have company or delivery trucks or anything else. So, therein lies the problem. Thank you very much for listening.

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>> Thank you. >> Anybody else from the public want to comment? >> Come on up. >> Name and address, please. >> Name is Peter Dawson. Live at 681 Samu Road. Um, I want to start off by saying that I was the person that initiated the

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the the meeting with the developer and that was after several emails that we eventually got that to happen. >> How'd it go? >> Are we there? It didn't go very well to be honest with you. Um, one thing that's interesting to me is when this first was proposed, the design was done by a company called

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Union Studio and they were all stick built homes. The latest proposal is for prefabricated homes. And my question really is to the developer. Is it his intent to stay involved financially

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through construction and completion of the project or is he going to transfer the permits to some other developer? >> Good question. >> That's it. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Anybody else? >> Anybody up here have anything before we

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continue? Um, I uh just want to say that, you know, now that we're here, um, perhaps what happened in the past doesn't matter. It's how we move forward. And I I think that uh the

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message is out there and um we've displayed on enough occasions that safety is a a a huge concern of our board and we're going to look at it Okay, judging by this traffic study,

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anybody can know more than anybody else has. And uh it's of the ultimate importance and uh I hope we can uh make this as acceptable as possible somehow and it's going to take working

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between both developers, I believe. >> Nothing that hasn't already been said. >> Is everybody else all set up here? Yeah, >> I make a motion to >> to continue 6:25. >> That I think that's too soon because they've got to get everything to us a

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week before. That gives them one week to get all the stuff that we expect. >> Well, they're scheduled for 625. Do we get an extension? >> Uh, I don't know. >> This is smacking us. I mean, >> well, I mean, tonight's a good example.

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and when we had I mean if we're not prepared if the information isn't out there we do a lot of spinning our wheels and I mean I think it would be better if there was sufficient time for >> how long do you think it will take us

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with mass housing >> well that they should have made the notice I don't know I don't know the answer to that because I don't know if they made it I don't know if they >> if they object to >> Yeah I don't know if they objected to providing that notice that they think

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that they didn't have to provide it. I would re I would disagree with that if that was their assessment, but I don't know. I can't guess at it. Um so, >> so one month's time, 7:16, >> I would do 7:16 then. >> Yeah, if we do a month, it'll be more robust. They'll have more time.

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>> All right. So, we'll u we have >> substitute for information and we don't have enough. >> We don't have enough. See, >> and I want the bittersweet people to to know. >> Oh, that's >> so anyway, we'll make you made a motion to continue and it's 7:16. Okay, >> that works for me.

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>> 76. >> Yes. Thank you. >> Is the developer going to come in? >> We got a >> Yes, he will. He He apologizes for not being a available tonight. He's out of the country today. >> So, we have a motion on the floor to continue to 7:16 at 6. Um, all those in

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Do we have a second? >> Second. We have a second by Jim. All those in favor? I oppose. None. >> All right. Thank you all for coming out. >> Sorry, we were a bit, you know, gobsmacked, I guess. Sorry. >> Keep coming. Keep coming back.

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>> That's right. Keep coming back. >> And as I've told you before, there's no substitute for showing up. >> If you're interested, >> do it. You have to >> the 25th is just 809. >> Frank the Ashley.

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>> 25th is just 809. >> Yes. >> Thank you. >> Can I be >> You do great speaking. >> You do great. >> You do. Keep it up. >> All right. This is trash, right? >> Uh, >> no. Keep I'll keep it.

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>> Keep it. Okay. >> I hate trash. >> Oh, cuz that may be the only thing you >> What's next? >> No meeting stuff. >> Jesus. I have to continue. >> You've got elevations. >> You've got elevations that you may may need. >> All right. I need I need someone's

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agenda. I packed fine. >> We have any minutes? >> We're going to Yes, you're going to do the uh April 30th and May 7th. >> So, I'll make a motion to do the minutes. Everyone's read minutes. April 30th and May 7th. >> May 7th. >> I'll second. >> There's a motion to second. All those in

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favor? I >> I >> as you have the I my agenda packed. Uh board discussion is next. >> Board discussion. Anybody have anything? >> No, we've had carry on. >> Carry on. >> Well, the two of us are up for reappointment at the end of the month. Did you get the 29th now?

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>> 29th. >> The day before. They're holding it out. >> I'm going to stand behind Jim. >> Well, good luck. >> Good luck. >> Yeah. Good luck. >> Yeah. I'm sure nobody will hear you. >> And I think that's >> updates.

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>> Updates. >> I think we're all set, right? Yep. >> So our next hearing is >> next week. >> Next week on the 8 >> June 18th. >> June 18th. Next hear next meeting is June 18th on June 18th at 6.

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>> Motion to adjurnn. Madam chair second. >> We have a motion and a second. All those in favor? Hi. >> You know I