Welcome to the zoning board of appeals. Please silence all cell phones and note that this meeting is being taped by FCTV. If there's any private party recording this hearing, please step up to the podium to request permission. I'll introduce the board and staff. On my far right is Mark Finan. To his left
is Scott Peterson. On my close right is Frank Duffy, the clerk. My name is Suzanne Murphy, chair. To my left is James Morris, vice chair, and Tony Patruchi, an associate. And we have Noren Stockman, the zoning administrate, zoning administrator and special t
special counsel on George Buchcci. The zoning board of appeals is charged with applying the state zoning statutes as well as the tone zoning town's zoning bylaws and reviewing and voting on applications. All decisions are made through the public hearing process. Our goal is to hear testimony from the
applicants and the public and to allow a full and fair discussion of the project prior to closing the hearing process and reaching a decision. Number one, to begin each hearing, the clerk will read the public announcement for the hearing and read pertinent information from the file. Two, the applicant or the applicant's representative will then
have 15 minutes to make a presentation, but their time may be extended by a vote of the board. Three, the board will then question the applicant. And then four, the public will then be invited to comment. Comment should be limited to two minutes, be strictly strictly related to the proposal. All members of
the public wishing to speak should wait to be recognized by the chair and should come to the podium. State your name and address for the record. Speak into the microphone. It will not amplify your voice, but will record audio for the FCTV viewers. And if there's anyone that would like to come and make a public
comment before we go to the the hearing on the agenda tonight, you're welcome, but can't be about the hearing tonight. Anybody want to make a public comment? I guess we're good. So, we'll start off. It's a continuation of 05925
Felmouth Residential LLC, 809 Sandwich Road. And tonight, we're going to try to keep it to landscaping and architecture. That was the goal. >> Which one do you want to start with?
>> Let's do landscape. That was right off the top. [laughter] >> I'm not sure. Are we plugged in here? >> You got branded in the it >> right up on the screen. Oh, there it is. Did you see the building?
>> Good evening, Alan Aerman from Ryan Associates Landscape Architecture and Planning. Um, it's been a little bit since I've been here. Um, but I think at the last meeting, Brandon walked you through the site plan updates associated with bringing the project into
compliance with the uh 35 ft front setback. And so, in a lot of ways, the place to start with a landscape plan is to to show that, you know, as the sort of applying landscape, you know, can be reduced to thinking about applying the finishes to the project. Uh we're
showing tonight with the lands updated landscape plan that those site plan changes um uh work as we uh update the plans with the planting design, the paths, the
the um additional um the guest parking and the other amenity spaces. So, I'll walk through those um and remind everybody that the compliance with the 35- ft setback really affected that first rank of of buildings, the ones
that are parallel more or less with Sandwich Road. They shifted about uh 12 ft uh into the site to comply with the 35 ft setback. Um part of that change was to um uh update the entrance drive
to the fire department uh comments which uh the the radiuses the radi um on either side of the entrance widened the um median is no longer a curbed uh planted median. It'll be uh
differentiated paving or paint uh to um to allow for the appropriate turning capacity at the entrance. Uh but the character of this front otherwise stays very similar. Um there is now a 8x10 um
bus um shelter along side of the on the page south um side of the of the entrance drive. where as well the um community sign is and that was in your packet uh for tonight as well. The the shape and size of that sign
>> bus stop >> the uh treatment along the uh Sandwich Road frontage stays the same. There's a a a rail fence >> similar to what's there now along the property line
>> with the street trees behind and then the fronts of the um >> the residences along Sandwich Road >> at the end of the sidewalk. started getting into the site where we had a
pavilion uh before. Um the GI parking was uh reconfigured to allow for that that shift to happen from those GIS parking spots. There is a a path that leads into what we've been calling the
community green. Um that is the uh about a 2/3 of an acre uh open space behind the units facing the the southerntherly property line uh that where where the infiltration systems and reserve areas are.
So as you look around the site and into the site you'll see that um that path is there. those houses uh still facing the green. And further into the site at the um
amenity area, the playground is still there and the um dog park is still there reconfigured and I'll discuss those changes um in just a moment. And then the uh additional community
>> Do you know how to use the arrow? >> Yeah. right there. >> That might be more helpful. Thank you. >> Yeah. So, that's sort of backing up. That's where the pavilion uh uh layout changes meant that the >> Is that going to be the mail now? Right there.
>> The mail will be there. Okay. So, there's a pad there. Um the exact configuration of those boxes is would need to be confirmed with the with the post office. Um but that's where that would happen and there's a spot in the path there uh for that accommodation.
This is the the community green area. These dash lines refer to the subgrade uh infiltration systems and reserve areas. Um so even though the the green looks cluttered, that's all subgrade. Um
and these homes front the green. There's the path that leads into the green. primary sidewalk circulation along the street takes us to the amenity area here that I just started talking about. So, there's
the the the tot lot play structure with a community garden with raised beds and a and a small gardening shed uh located here. And then the dog pet park area
here backed off the the property line um here to preserve and reveate that back buffer um as we talked about it I think at one of the last meetings. So throughout the street trees [snorts]
uh populate the streetscape and um the uh foundation planting um around the the houses and additional buffer and planting area
along in between homes. Todd, do you have to use both plans because the hydrates and a lot of stuff is in one? >> That's in in the aggregate the the landscape plan and the the the concept that's been
before you. Um I think in the most recent um sort of update with the Beals and and Thomas letter um they hadn't received the updated landscape plan yet. There were a few things raised there. the endorsement of the plan, a question
about a scale, which I think is updated now. Um, pet park surface, which would be a a crush stone surface. Um, and then um following on um the update of the uh
the lighting plan with the um new site plan, which as we work through the um >> civil updates, landscape updates, you know, we're updating the set as we go. So, I think those were the sort of applicable pieces of the um the peer
review um most recent letter from Beles and Thomas that were flagged. >> Okay, this is hard for me to follow because there's no street lights on this one. Street lights are on the other one. Hydrants are on one, not on the other.
>> Just kind of >> Yeah, the street lights are here. >> On that one right there. Oh, good. >> Yeah, >> I just wrote the hydrants in. >> All right. So there is the the um typical street light symbols are highlighted. So they are um they are shown on the plan.
>> What are they an asterric maybe? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Is that what it is? [clears throat] >> Small. >> Is that like >> and then we have the additional hydrant which I should have mentioned with the um >> those are the street lights. >> Changes made for the the fire department request. There's an additional hydrant midway
>> through the neighborhood. And then the street lights which um again the photoometric plans will be updated. I think the only one that really got updated in terms of the street lights was we had a light in the
um center island and that now has moved to the um the curb line here. >> May I ask a question? >> Yeah, go ahead. >> On the lights, are these dark sky friendly lights? >> They're solar and they're dark sky. Yes. Um, another question. >> Go ahead, Tony.
>> Um, how do I phrase this? Monday night, I attended a planning board meeting in which this town was talking about some zoning changes, but there would be tremendous effect on the water supply of this town, which is uh in very bad
shape. Um, and adding any more development to this town is is is going to be a problem. 40Bs don't care, but it's a problem for this town. One of the things that the
water department, and I have the letter here, it's all public. You can read this letter. It came out in the 28th talked about is um, one of the biggest offenders of the use of water, our irrigation systems. What are your plans with regard to irrigation?
um minima. I I think the direction from Jack has been that we can't count on much irrigation at all. >> How would you and and I appreciate that because there is read this letter from the water department. Talk to Matt
Landon. We have a serious serious water shortage already and it's building and with all these 40bs coming on that we can't manage as well as we'd like to um that u there's going to be even a
greater risk to this town not having the amount of water that is necessary. But read that letter. I'll talk about this again uh later. um irrigation uh in order to establish your your plantings. I mean, you have to do
something. You're going to have to be held accountable to do that. So, what would your plan be? One year, two years of irrigation. If it's allowed, that's of course if it's allowed, >> right? Well, we, you know, optimally uh install in the right season. So, established,
>> right? We're not planting in August, uh July. We're planting in the fall or spring. Um, we're using temporary systems. Um, >> what does that mean? >> Well, for trees, we would use the watering bags. So, you water you're not, you know, um, you're you're sp, you
know, spot specific. Um, and then, uh, we're using systems, um, that can be, um, zone zoning that can be turned off, drip systems, um, for instance, that would be, um, shut off. Um,
>> so it it's hard it would be hard to impose on you folks of 40b something that is not imposed everywhere. >> Uh, but if you recognize in your and you're concerned about this community that you're going to be working in, you have to take
this into account that what you're going to do, never mind what all the rest are going to do. um we'll speak to them too. Uh is going to have an impact a severe impact on our water supply. To take it one more step, what will you be doing to
mitigate um we have both a nitrogen we'll talk about in septics another time. We have both a nitrogen and a phosphorus. Phosphorus for fresh water. Uh fertilizers affect that. We have a very serious problem with that. What how will
you be handling uh fertilizers if you're going to fertilize at all? Right. >> And then I want to get into drought tolerant issues. >> We would be trending towards with the, you know, the sort of the emphasis of the town away from the golf course
style, you know, always green, always plush, always mowing every, you know, every week. Um, >> I see a big village green. >> Mhm. >> And I think they're beautiful. >> Yeah, >> I do. I mean, I think they're beautiful. >> We should all have them. But we have a
problem in this town right now. You will be contributing to that problem as a 40B, as a large project. As a responsible developer, and I know you are, I know who the company is. Um, this is something that we have to figure out
as a board how to condition this without having you scurrying to housing appeals committee over something like this. And as speaking as one board member, I'd like to know more how you're going to mitigate phosphorus inflow
via watering, landscaping, all of that. One of way, one of the ways to avoid it is to plant more drought tolerant. What I'm looking at here on this landscape plan is not necessarily drought tolerant. Is there anything we can do to
mitigate types of plantings? And I and I believe me in a regular situation this is beautiful >> but how do we how do how can you help this town >> as you work in this town to do that >> right well the the the green is the the infiltration system zone I mean so so
it's providing a I mean it's a function there it's not just a lawn to look n you know nice um and we don't want to tax that infiltration system by pumping water over the top of it when we're require when we're using that area for
um you know its primary function. So the um expectation here is that lawns will go dormant right when it's dry and that has to be >> well that's the expectation is that a
condition that we should put in that you they must go dormant I mean I don't understand how we're going to be able to >> let me step forward um Mr. Petruchi. >> I didn't. It's very difficult. >> I didn't want to screw it up. Um, >> you did. It's Patruchi. [laughter] There's an R in there. >> I would I would forgive you, sir.
>> No, don't call me, sir. >> You didn't leave out any vowels, though. [laughter] >> Let us, we want to come back in a month. Um, I think your questions are spot on. I think they're good questions. um uh rather than try to you know make up on
the fly you know a canned answer. I mean I think you know drought tolerant limited irrigation limited duration of irrigation to establish planting and or grass area um are all you know tools in the toolbox. Uh let Allan Brandon and I
come back to you and I think they should be spe you know conditions of the permit. >> Thank you. May I while you're still sitting there, one of the uh worst offenders for phosphorus into the groundwater are and we have an engineer
here are storm water management systems. >> All right, that is another very but we can't do without them. >> Madam Chair, you have rain gardens. >> I'm going a long time. >> You can do without them, Tony. >> I know other people have questions. >> Well, let me come back. I I'm taking a
long time. So, let I appreciate everything you said. Thank you. I'll come back to the storm water management. >> Excuse me. I just want to follow up on that. There is things you can do about them, specifically rain gardens. So, your statement was spot on, but not
100%. And I mean, we're talking about seriously covering a large area. And I honestly think that um everything else you said it being accurate. I I I think it should be something that can be considered should
be considered. And it could also uh help uh to um stave off a little bit of this dormcancy during dry periods if you were to use the uh water in an
intelligent fashion. >> But I have other problems as well. >> I'm very appreciative of Mr. Dolly uh wanting to come back and do something about this that in a way can be conditioned. So I appreciate that. >> Yeah. >> Jim, >> so one of the concerns that the board
has had on this is the is traffic and the sight view along Sandwich Road. Um I'm looking at the plan. I just want to make sure I've read it right. The plan is uh you're putting tulip trees in front of uh essentially along the rail split rail fence line along Sandwich Road.
>> Correct. And what's going to be planted is one and a half to two inch calipers. How big are those trees expected to get as they mature? My concern is are they going to as they age, grow, is it going to start to encroach or get into the sight view along Sandwich Road with the
proposed placement? >> So, there is a a sighteline analysis in your packet, I think, for tonight. Um, we're back from all of that. um they they're canopy species, so they're going to be limbmed up appropriately. They're not going to be u
branched to the ground. They're not, you know, um sort of impeding at that level at the driver's level. >> Well, the edge curve to the face of the fence to the trees that are bound behind the fence is approximately how what's that distance?
>> 10 to 12 ft. >> 10 to 12t. So you you think of your no your car sort of at or at or close to the edge of curb as you're turning left or right. Um the rear of your car well car is what 15 16
19 ft long. The rear of your car is going to be back where that fence line is and the trees that are shown on the plan are behind that. So you know the the trunk of the tree will not be in sight line to the degree that they they leaf out and droop down. they that could
be and you know that would be a main issue. >> So I'm not looking to micromanage my suggestion my concern at least for the three that are on the south side of the entrance if we could to the extent possible shifting them away from the road just to make sure that the sighteline is not imposed because safety
and the again safety is traffic is a concern of the board. Um, in the northeast portion of the proposed development, I know we've got existing vegetation and then there's an area that just says buffer restoration area. We've had an
butter who's expressed significant concern about this. Uh, what is the plan in terms of allowing that to >> reveate what? >> Right. So, I think we we have there there's a subsurface um storm chambers. So I we need I needed to coordinate with
Brandon more closely that you know what we have for cover on those before but we'll as we finish the plans um or update that coordination um we will specify what what that is.
>> Thank you question this time. Madam Chairman, >> do you have anything? >> Um yes, a couple of questions. Um would you just kind of go through again or uh once you have completed this project, assuming you get the permits
you're looking for and you've got occupancy and people move in, how are you going to maintain all of the common areas uh on this property? >> So, it's a rental project. So, um Northland Development will be holding it
and will be responsible for the um care and upkeep. So, um they'll have a landscape contractor who will come and and do that work. >> And this will be done on a regular basis. >> Yep.
>> Um one of the uh comments made in Beiels and Thomas um peer review which I saw the other day. That's the one dated um June 28th, which is a month ago. Um they talked about um
uh your plans for snow storage and there was a concern that uh in a heavy snowstorm uh the snow storage area near the intersection might impede the sightelines at the intersection. Did you see that and have you given any thought to that?
>> Yeah, we we did see that and I think we're updating that as part of the response to be and Thomas. So we're we're correcting that as um we're applying the the sighteline analysis. >> Um another thing and I'm just asking this for my own clarification. One of
the things they talked about was the they call it the S SWPP storm water pollution prevention program which is kind of a mouthful to say but um who who is going to approve that? Uh, is that something that's done by the
department of engineering or how does that work? >> Typically the the we call we shorten it to a SWIP just added an I into the abbreviation there. Um, that is an application that we put together and then that goes to um NIPYS which is the
national protection or national department of environmental services. Um so typically it's reviewed by D. uh copy will gets forwarded to the engineering department but that goes through construction controls um to manage erosion during construction activities um within our storm water report that
we've submitted with our application has been reviewed by the engineering departments uh peer consultant and also Beiels and Thomas we have a operation and maintenance plan both during construction which is a smaller abbreviated version of that SWIP application we'll submit and also a long-term prevention pollution plan and
operation maintenance plan which speaks to after construction is complete complete. How are the storm water management systems that we've put together, the infiltration systems, the catch basins, the water quality units, how are those maintained so they continue to function as they do today? Um, and so that's something that um the
is in our storm water report. Typically, we will have a copy of that signed by the applicant acknowledging their their requirements and obligations for long-term maintenance on the storm water systems. So, will the maintenance of continued maintenance of the drains for storm water be part of the maintenance
obligations your uh landscape archite when I've selected what we call the horizontal site work infrastructure contractor the dirt guy >> because I want him to or today for them you see she it to own it in their
contract. Um so it is a document that has to be produced. It has to be reviewed and approved um at a state level the DPW so on and so forth. But it needs to be it's not it's not technically all that enforceable if I don't bake it into a contract with the guy who's actually pushing the dirt
around and controlling erosion control and those little bags that go in catch basins that you've probably seen on the road that are yellow and those those tube things. What do you call the tube? >> Silk socks or silk straw waddles. >> Um so um that we do that after the
permit before the commencement of construction. It can be to Mr. Kuchi's u coin it can be a condition of approval that prior to commencement of construction such as submitted and so on. That's a customary kind of uh
procedural matter relative to long-term maintenance. I'm this is a rental community. So, I'm the landlord, so I'll be responsible for collecting trash, maintaining the buildings, right? >> Um, uh, mowing grass, plowing snow,
picking up trees, fixing fences, enforcing rules and regulations, making sure that dog waste is collected and put in certain places and not all over the place. Um, all the things that us human people, human being things, we do. Bikes
aren't laying around. stuff like that. >> Thank you. >> You know, abandoned cars don't just sort of set in guest parking. >> Address some of my my concerns because I wasn't so much concerned about how this is going to be handled during construction because there's a lot of people monitoring the situation during
construction and there's inspections and so forth, but I'm concerned about the long term after all that's done and we're going down the road. So, thank you very much. Okay. Well, you know, I kind of have a vested interest. If I maintain it well, I have higher occupancy and I have higher rents.
>> That's understood. Thank you. >> Scott, do you have anything? >> I guess Allan could just for testimony, could you speak to the six different uh tree types that you have and kind of the heights that you have? It's up in your legend. >> Sure. >> Just so folks at home can Yeah.
>> get a better understanding. >> Right. So we have the >> the different types. Um the street tree tra sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh shade tree t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t types in the the first block of the list are the trees that uh we typically line, you know, the streets
with that form the overall tree canopy, the tree canopy species or the larger tree trees that grow um to the greater heights. Um the we have the evergreen trees which we've used um in places for
um you know yearround interest and privacy that evergreens provide. Um the flowering trees we've used them typically uh to punctuate prominent uh corners off the fronts of buildings or to provide um uh some character between
the buildings um separation between the buildings. Um then we break down um the deciduous um shrubs um flowering shrubs um that will be part of the primarily the um foundation planting around the
building and other common areas. And then of course the evergreen shrubs which are used um to add interest uh at the same level. and then the perennial um grasses and perennials that um will
round out the planting beds. Um and typically um we sort of as a you know planting strategy um the planting goes in at a a a good size but everything grows and as
things grow um so we we we pick the species that um you know we know different things have different lifespans and thing certain things will take over. So as we pick the species and inter mix them in the around the homes.
Um, we know the perennials have a usually a shorter sort of life cycle than the shrubs, but then as the shrubs take on their character uh and the planting beds mature, uh, we know that um, you know, we have good longevity um,
and an attractive streetscape and and pleasant environment to live in. I think to the question of, you know, it kind of goes back to the questions of establishment that have been raised a couple times tonight. Um, in the construction of the neighborhood, um, Northland will will start with the first
buildings and as they're completed, they'll be planted and the lawns around them will be installed. Um and construction will pro proceed across the site which is the other component of um
that um monitoring establishing plants letting them and being there to um get them get them through the first seasons and then you know we're still on site. the contractors are still actively planting uh the last building when the
first buildings, you know, are are are pretty well um set and they don't need that that attention in the same way. Um so it is uh you know, it's not like we're planting 100% at one big push and that's always a you
know that's that's a a risky operation. You have so much to maintain but here it's you know it's a duplex by duplex. Um so that will be part of the success of the the planting and the um weaning that will happen.
>> Thank you very much. >> Uh [clears throat] how many people do you project are going to live in here? >> There's 36 homes. >> Yeah, I know that. >> Yeah. So I mean give me a number. >> Yeah. I I'm the landscape architect. Um
my I can I can suppose uh there's there's half of those are three-bedroom apartments um and half of them are two bedrooms. Um most of them I imagine will have a baseline of two residents. Um and then you can imagine the you know
statistical uh you know 1.5 1.75 children per home applied across the whole thing. So you know >> could easily be a hundred. >> Yeah. Yeah. Right. >> Sure. And then using those same numbers,
next door, right next door, there'll be another 200. >> So we got a combined 300 people living here. >> Where's the sidewalk? >> The sidewalk. >> Within the neighborhood. It's
>> No, I'm not talking about that. >> Right. You know, this might be out of time, order, or whatever, but whatever. I'm going to say it anyway. You guys are asking to build neighborhoods,
but you don't act like neighbors. We're We're supposed to look at these two things individually instead of looking at them as one. I think that's completely wrong. Um, and uh, you know, I I know it's got nothing to do with landscape or trees or
whatever. And I don't have any I of all the 40bs that we do, I think I have the least amount of um, concern that there aren't going to
be some fairly decent properties built here. I mean, and um that has a lot to do with quality of life, but if somebody gets killed out front, they got no quality of life at all. And and I'm just going to have to go back to it because it's my
major concern. I'm concerned. I I don't see why you guys can't share an exit. It would have a calming effect. Left to right would have to turn left or right. Um, and any one with any amount of logic
can look at that and see that doubling the uh entrances and exits is is doubling the potential for disaster. And uh, [clears throat] as currently constructed, I don't care. It's my I'm I'm here. I'm supposed to do
what everybody wants. I'm not voting for either one of these. And uh I think that uh it should be addressed and it should be addressed immediately before we go any further down the road. But I can't say that my opinion is going to affect
anybody else's vote. But I can also say on Sandwich Road, I I I I fought to get the sidewalk, which we finally got, and I was voted down, I believe, twice before we finally got it. Safety is all of our main concern. Um, and uh, I just
want both of you guys to realize that the potential for me to get one more vote for just that reason is there. Is it the potential for me to get a third vote because of that? I don't know. But I know I'm not changing. So, take that
with you. >> I have a few questions on on landscape. Did you want to address that >> or should I just continue? Hm. >> I'll take the nickel. >> The nickel. >> Um I I'm not going to address that. No. Um I do have I just want to um sort of
expand a little bit on landscaping for one second. One of the comments we heard last week from a resident or spoke to the agricultural concern of the area that this this area is zoned >> uh agriculture and so on and so forth.
and and looking at the, you know, this area down in here where we had tot lot and and big trees and um and and a dog park and and so on and so forth. One of the one of the things that
I've heard from um the the manager of the Megan Crossing property and Mike Galasso directly that the residents really really value over there is the community garden. Um the raised beds and um so there's a picture in here that I
took that's that little square in the upper right. Um so I asked Allan and Brandon sort of reconfigure that area um such that we could integrate um some community garden space. Uh so that's what that's the that's where that that's
the genesis of that listening to that comment. Um uh listening to the property manager and and and Mike Galasso over there that lot doesn't get used a lot um uh very much at all as a matter of fact. But, you know, we had it we've had it on
the plan from the beginning. Uh, so we kept the uh the structure uh and the picture here is the same structure that's over in North Fmouth. Uh, you know, it's a little canopied uh play play thing uh that at least you could go out and do something with uh with you
had a you know, a toddler or something like that. Um, so so that just just wanted to highlight where how that evolved and why it evolved. >> Yeah, I saw that on there. I've never seen any kids when I drive by there ever. >> But I do see that there is stuff growing
in their >> in their garden. >> It's a little barn, a little shed. But, you know, I don't know. I don't know what's in there anymore. >> You'll have to put a tap. >> Yeah, you put one of those. >> Every other day, it's all you're allowed.
>> Could I ask one more? >> Yeah, go ahead. >> Uh, follow up. You you mentioned that you had chatted with either the residents or the property manager. Any other lessons learned from that uh um development project? >> Well, they spoke um to
um Mr. Petruchi's question about storage. Um you know, I asked the question, how does that work? And um because we were searching whether we can go in the attic and basement. Um uh people tend to park in their in their
driveway and use their garage for storage. They're one most of most everyone there has one car. Um, coincidentally they have a um there's 10 residents there. Eight of them are women, single women with um one or two kids. Um so they they they have some
things out on the decks, you know, um arbors and planting and so forth. You drive through, it's not too cluttery. Um it's relatively clean. Um, uh, there isn't a lot of there's a sidewalk in front on 28A that you could
walk to, for instance, Deans and to the >> Dunks >> south or Duncan to the south or you could go up to where the old Brew was to the north. Um, I mean, I'm on that. I live over there. I'm on there. I don't see a lot of traffic, foot traffic going
in either direction. The mail the the bus stop is used. It's used for two purposes. It's used for the what do you call it? The RTA. >> Yep. >> The RTA stops out on 28A. There's a sign on the face of the bus. This building that we're proposed is a carbon copy of
that. So the buses stop for kids and then the RTA that's a that's a mapped location, but it's you call, you text if you want to be picked up. That's I guess that's how the RTA works unless it's a established truly established thing. So
that that feature was something that was good. >> Okay. >> Um they used gravel for all their walkways. It's a mess. >> All that and their driveways. As Allan says, all that gravel ends up in the house. >> They were supposed to be paved. They
never completed it. >> Well, that's between you and the lasso. >> No, it's always good to have lessons learned and especially since you're replicating the same building to some degree. So, thank you. >> I have a couple questions on the snow
storage. When I look at You didn't put it on this plan, but it's on the other plan. And a lot of the trees are right where the snow storage is going. Especially that one. When you come in and take the first right at the end of that street, you got a whole lot of trees and that's like your biggest snow
storage area. There's usually not a, you know, areas that, you know, are meant to be plowed into, you know, are different, but the, you know, the street tree is limbmed 6 to 8 ft. Um, so there is, you know, the
ability to to put snow around a tree, which >> what size are these trees going to be? >> The trees as they go in? Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. They're specked at around 2 in. And you think two feet of snow is going to be [cough and clears throat]
peachy keen? Uhuh. >> Two two inch caliber. >> Yeah. >> Oh. Oh, okay. >> Yeah. No, no, no. We're not planting. >> No. Twoinch caliber. [laughter] >> He's say caliber. So, he said two inch trees to me. >> Okay. >> 10 ft plus. >> Got it. >> Yeah. >> All right. I was just worried because I
just did look and it a couple of them. It's right where the trees are and I don't want especially like dog woods or something. One of them has flowering trees right where the snow goes and you just might want to take a gander at it. That's all. >> And how high up are you going to maintain
>> the growth on the tree up up the trunk? How >> six to eight feet? I mean it's along the sidewalks, the drive lines. So yeah, like a typical >> And how t how tall are they going to be when they're planted? >> How tall? >> Yeah. How tall a tree are you planting?
Yeah, they go in at 10 ft plus. >> Okay. >> And I did want to ask over by the barn, >> there was huge trees, >> like huge trees. >> Mhm. >> I don't see them depicted on here because I really wanted them to be saved.
>> Mhm. >> Do you know where I'm Do you know the ones I'm talking about? >> Yeah. Along the the back corner here. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's along the border pretty much, >> right? Well, it comes in a little bit, but >> it can you put them on the plan so I can at least see them or >> do we have that in the base?
>> I have to check what we got. Um I don't know if we included individualations in our circus. We've just shown it on the existing conditions plan and you'll see it just kind of shows the tree lines. So, I'd have to see if we actually got >> Yeah, there's some huge huge Yeah, and it would be good to save those because they're I mean, you can't replace
>> those trees. They're huge. And that's about all I have. I think I have other >> I have one more quick question. >> Go ahead, Tony. >> The uh you touched upon phototric a minute ago. I really didn't hear what you said, but the question is on the photometric plan you have in the initial
submission that cut sheet, is that the light you're putting in or is that changed? >> I we I have to reconfirm that it's it's changed. >> We haven't changed it. >> I'm just I'm just curious. That's all because [clears throat] everything here becomes part of the >> comprehensive permits. >> Sure.
>> Okay. Not that that you couldn't get an administrative insubstantial change, but I'm just saying. >> Right. >> And that's a that is a uh what's going to go along Sage Road, it looks like, is going to be a tulip tree. >> Tulip trees along the along the street
there. >> Yeah. So they grow to be 30 40 feet. >> Yep. If they're really happy. >> If they're really happy. Yeah. Okay. Just curious. [laughter] >> They're not happy road. It is sunny, I guess.
>> Anybody else have any further landscape questions? Norine, do you have anything? I'm going to go to the public for landscape if that's all right with you guys. Anybody from the public want to comment on landscaping? You guys are all set?
>> Oh, Richard, the landscape. >> Thank you, Frank. Richard Johnson, one Amvetsz Avenue. I'm a landscape architect. Um, I just want to make a comment that the buildings surrounding the village green, so to
speak. Um, there's a few trees there, but otherwise it's it's open field or lawn with no trees protecting the buildings or framing the view of that green from them. Uh, I realize there's a lot of underground
material back there, but if at least a few large shade trees could be planted in appropriate spots, it would make that field far more attractive, at least in my point of view and uh particularly along the property line with the next development.
>> What may I ask a question? >> No, I was just going to ask one. Is there a can I ask first? Is there a particular tree that would be not not the roots going down, you know, too deep to affect the >> I I think that uh I wouldn't plan anything close to an underground
facility, but there's u particularly in the east side, there's a lot of green space with nothing underground and uh um in the area where the sidewalk stops >> over in that corner like Okay. Yeah. All right. So, >> sorry. Go ahead.
Are there uh types of plantings that um can help draw phosphorus out of the ground? >> All plantings, any plant, any >> every plant does that. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, what should be which means that we should probably want more. >> Yeah. Well, a deep rooted species, a
taprooted species like an oak might be to that point um more efficient in drawing >> unless you use a rain garden >> into the water table. And I appreciate that you're a landscape architect. You know these things and ask but they're coming back to us with
something. Jolly coming back. But I just want to appreciate >> Thank you, Richard. Anybody else want to come up? >> Welcome back, Mrs. Harding. >> Thank you. >> I just have a question. Valerie Harding,
540 Old Meeting House Road, Hatchville. I have a question about the island. Will there be plantings there or just a sign? Um, and as far as the plantings on Sandwich
Road, most of us who've lived here a long time can remember when Plum Hollow was laid out with a beautiful island and some attractive plantings that's now complete woods. No island can
be seen. No sign can be seen. I do appreciate the fact that Mr. Dolly has said that they will be um monitoring and um handling all the aspects of this property. I appreciate
that he has done his homework by going to visit, you know, the property in North Falmouth. Um but I'd like to know the long term. In other words, you know,
we're all gray-haired here. Is he gonna be at it for 30 years? [laughter] Um or um and and also how long will the construction take? I realize that's not a landscaping thing, but from the start, the gentleman said,
"Well, when the first house is finished, we'll start planting the landscape. How long until the last one is finished for the neighbors who have to endure the construction doors? Just curious. Thank you. >> Good question.
>> What was the first question relative to the >> plantings >> maintenance >> and if it's just going to be a sign or if there be other plantings >> that island? >> So that island is not actually an island. It's a chain that it was an
island. The fire department asked us to take a raised island, curved island out so that they didn't lose the tires driving in and out. >> It's either a cobble strip chain, not pavement. It's cobble or is stamped
concrete or it's pink. >> And is there a sign there? >> There's not a sign in the middle. There's a sign proposed right there. That word kind of blended neighborhood sign. And it's going to look like Do
>> you want him to speak into the mic? >> I think I just said that to Jim. I think you can hear him. >> Yeah, you guys got to talk over here. [clears throat] >> Pull up. >> Don't know how popular you are. I'm sorry. >> Use this one. Mr. Dolly, you >> want me to repeat all that? >> Um, she was asking about if there were
plantings in this island between the uh ingr, you know, inbound lane and the outbound lane. That is not a planting island. Um, the fire department originally was. The fire department asked us to take it out so they didn't lose their tires on it. It was going to be a change in surface. It's either
going to be all asphalt with white lines on it or it's going to be cobble, you know, so it's a a different, you know, median that you can drive over. Um she then um Mrs. Miss Harding, >> thank you. Miss Harding then asked if there was a sign. Um, the neighborhood
sign is that little thing right there at the tip of my finger of the mouse. And it's going to look like this. >> What's the size of that sign while you stand? I can't read mine. >> The size of that is in your packet. Um, >> it's too small to read, though. >> Oh, okay. All right. Okay.
>> I even tried my magnifying glass and couldn't do it. >> Can you read that? >> Um, give me a moment. >> No, >> it's over six feet. It's is it tall? It's >> tall next to it. >> Uh the the top of that sign is 87 in
above the ground. >> Meaning the arm this this arm >> actual dimensions >> top of that arm there's a dimension right there. You can't obviously can't read it. That's 87
in. Um the arm itself is 52 in coming from the post to the left. Uh the sign is 44. The sign itself is 44 by 30.
And then it has these two gooseeneck lights that go like this to illuminate the face of the sign. [snorts] Um I don't know. And you had other questions and I've forgotten what they are. How long? >> How long?
>> Oh, the construction. Thank you. Um, construction's probably going to be So, we're building 54 units of rental units at Mashby Commons if you've seen if anyone's been down there off of Job's Fishing Road. Um, that's going to be just shy of a two-year build from
groundbreaking to final uh building completion occupancy. Um, so this is eight uh 36 units. I imagine it's you know 18 to 20 months um from groundbreaking. We will begin by
um excuse me we'll begin by doing what I call the horizontal site work first and that's all we'll do is we'll get this road roughed in and all the drainage water the u transformer bases uh conduits you name it. Um all of that
will start here and well probably start here and run backwards. Um and we'll get it to binder. We'll put this in next. Um, we don't need the wastewater treatment plant day one because we're not flushing a toilet until we finish a unit. And then we'll start building from
these four. We'll do those four as a cluster. And then we'll work our way out. Um, we like to work from the rear out so that um, not every resident uh, has to deal with all the construction. If we built these first ones, I mean, it'd be nice to do the first ones
because it sets the sets the edge, as we say. Um um but then you have all sorts of dust and construction. So typically we work from the back end out. Um uh I would say, you know, when we get to somewhere down in here, the dog park and
all this amenity stuff starts to fall into place because it's needed. There'll be enough residents. Um uh this the the bus stop will go in fairly early because there'll be people living there. U 18 24 months at the most. I mean it it it's a start to
finish. Um Nashby Commons um we're delivering one four to six unit building a month beginning September. Uh and then we'll go to September. One building a month September all the way then there's 11
buildings 11 buildings. So 11 months later all the buildings will be done and it probably took us 120 days to do this site work. All right. Thanks. >> And then this is all dependent on whether Eversource shows up and that did
not >> we all live on that edge. >> Miss Harding, did I answer your question? >> Yes. >> And that in Mashby appears to be a well-managed site. I'm making that as a statement. You should agree.
>> He's hoping it's going to be. dirtier than I like it to be. But >> I did the permanent. >> No, I mean, we're it's it's my own construction company, so the left hand is working for the right hand. Um, so, you know, we're able, you know, >> they want to hear everybody at home
wants to hear you, too. >> I should pull up to the >> It's our own construction company working for the develop. We have a development entity called JWT phase 1-B LLC, but Northland Residential Construction is working as as under a
contract for the development entity. This will be what do we call this? Falmouth residential. Falmouth residential will execute a contract with Northland Residential Construction. That's the that's that's the way we do it. Um that's the way you have to do it. So, and there's a team down there. That same group, Sean, Louie, and Arthur will
be R and Scotty will be doing this site. Um, and those guys all have 15, 20 years of tenure with me. >> I don't know why, but they do. >> Don't ask. [snorts] >> Anybody else from the public?
>> You have to speak in the microphone. They can't hear you from back there. >> Is he all set? >> Anything else? >> I'm going to ask anybody else from the public. and we'll move on to architecture. >> All right. I'm not the architect, but I'm going to be the architect because
ship Kit Kit Weiss, the architect of record, uh is semi-retired and actually on vacation. But one of the questions um let me get organized for a second. >> All right. So, I'm going to start with
this is all in your packet. Um, the first page of architecture is this one that has the green box at the top called 809 uh sandwich road architectural design. Um, this is what has been built known as Megan Crosset in northbound. There are
10 units in five duplexes over there. Um, there are two units to a building. They are built slab on grade. One side of the building is a three-bedroom unit of 1350 square feet. The other side of the building is a two-bedroom unit uh of
1,200 ft². The three-bedroom unit has a first floor bedroom. Um the two-bedroom unit, all both bedrooms are on the second floor. Uh each unit has its own um direct entry garage, meaning its own private garage. And from the garage, you
can you can drive into the garage, you can close the door, get out of the car, and walk into your home or you can walk in uh uh via the front stoop. Um so uh the uh next page is a picture of the
building in in reality from uh across the street on 28A on the west side of the street taken by me. Um they are um they are not vinyl, they're not hardy plank. They're the these are built with wood cape traditional Cape Cod
construction 2x6 wall um clabards and painted clabards and um white cedar shingles. Uh wood trim uh most likely a vinyl double hung uh thermopane window.
Um uh architectural shingle on the roof. Aluminum aluminum gutters. you know, collecting uh rain water and and piping it to the ground and into areas. Uh >> I ask a quick question. >> Yeah, go ahead. >> Just out of curio, I think you said white cedar shingle. >> Yeah,
>> real white >> regular the the shingle that they've been doing down on Cape Cod since I was a baby. Same ones. >> Um given the cost of that per square, I'm trying to say >> I think he's trying to say he's happy.
>> Yeah. Yeah, it's quite something. I I probably bought more white cedar shingles than I ever imagined. Um I don't know how to turn this image. So uh >> the it was this thing do something.
>> Turning circle in the bottom right corner, isn't it? >> Oh, there we go. Thank you. Make it bigger. There we go. Uh, a a bunch of questions. >> You're upside down.
>> Upside down. >> All right. Thank you. >> So, one of the questions that was raised uh was interior storage area beyond the garage. So, I I marked up the plan in
this um blue and blue and yellow uh blue and yellow manner. Uh the the yellow is the mechanical room uh that's sort of tucked under the stairs uh where um hot water heater and and the like would be located. These are going to be all
electric units. Uh there will be mini splits. Um so a two-bedroom unit um there will be a mini split on the main level and there will be two mini splits up in on the second floor in both bedrooms. And a threebedroom there'll be two on the first floor and two on the
second floor. And then there'll be an electric hot water tank in the mechanical room. Um the uh personal uh storage area, closet areas are noted in blue. Um so you'll note as on the left
hand side of the image on the screen, if you come um you know into the garage into your garage and into the unit, uh there's a coat closet immediately there. Uh there's also a series of closets in that bedroom on the first floor, left hand side of this particular image. Um
on the right hand side um there's a coat clos there's two coat closets uh there. Um I think there were another question that was asked was the size of the porches. I've noted those in this image in green. Um,
so the entry porch is 86 by 176 w 86 feet by 176 wide. And the rear porch as it's labeled is approximately 5T by 14 ft. Um, and if I can go backwards
somehow. How do I do this? I don't know how to do this. I was trying to go to the picture of the unit to get try to give you a sense of what I'm talking about.
So, yes, thank you. So, that is that's the street side that this is the face of the building that would be facing 809. Uh as you get into the development, this is the face of the building that essentially either faces to the north um north property line or to the green area
that the gentleman landscape architect gentleman uh referenced. And this porch was the it's a it's some it's a sheltered porch if you will. It has a cover. You can see how it is covered by the second floor. >> Yeah. >> Um
uh all right. So now if I rotate again now I plus right. Come on. Sorry about my um navigation skills. We're on the second floor now.
Uh, and you can see the various I'm still upside down, but um, uh, you can see the closet space that's been allotted within the unit to the various bedrooms. There is a linen closet for the bathroom out in the hall, which is sort of a pet peeve of mine that you
have to have cuz we all have that stuff, you know, sheets, towels, blankets, toilet paper, toothpaste, you know, toilet plunger, you name it. It all has to go somewhere. Um, so
anyone can stop me whenever they want to stop me. >> While you got it up, will you tell me the size of the rooms? It's hard for me to read this. >> Yeah. Um, >> they look pretty close to each other. >> Scroll down. Scroll down.
Okay. So, yep. this bedroom on this drawing. Um, I'm on the right hand side. If you can see the cursor, uh, this bedroom is 137 wide. You can see my cursor at the top of the screen.
>> And it is 1210 deep. >> Um, >> and the other one across from it I think matches. No, it's a little >> And the other one is pretty close. Same 137 1210. The front bedroom is 14t deep by 112 and a half.
And if I get find the first floor, I go up to the first floor. I know where it went. Oh, there it is. The first floor bedroom here is 1011 wide by 152
and a half deep. The living room, I don't know if they're going to give me a good dimension on the living room. I don't have a string dimension on the living room. I'm sorry, chair. >> No, it's fine. I just want to know the bedroom sizes. >> The garage is 19
two deep by 11 118 wide. >> And it's a 4 by8 area in front of the front bumper for storage. >> Yep. A little bit a little indent there. That's a good point, Alan. This little recess.
>> I was going to ask about that. Had my know to ask. That is a place, Madam Chair, where >> somebody put up shelves. >> Yeah. >> Things there. It's I don't know if the Mr. Dolly will allow that or not, but um >> yeah, I mean it's their unit. They can put whatever they want in it. Um
>> that's a good place. That's a pretty large area. >> Yeah, it it looks like it's about 4T 38 deep by I don't know what the width is. Um >> well, it's over six feet wide. >> Yeah, it's a good storage spot. Um, >> are you going to have bins with the
trash pickup? >> Um, yeah, most likely. >> So, those would that would be >> could go in there. I I don't know. I haven't really called Kavosa and said, "What's the best way to service this to be honest with you?" >> Yeah. >> Um, >> I think that's what McGa does. >> That would be
>> I think I don't know about >> dumpsters are nuisances. >> Yeah. >> Um, for >> No, but that would be a good place for the bins, that little spot. >> Yeah, it would be a good place for that. Um, but it does to Mr. to Patucci's um point, it does take some. I mean, you
could put some shelves above or seasonal items, you know, high shelf above. Um All right. How do I get Where am I going here? Down >> to the elevation. >> Yeah, scroll down.
>> No, I am happy about that. >> Okay, thank you. Um, so we've sort of talked about the elevations. A question was um, uh, raised, I don't know where it is in here, how tall the building is. It's 20. There it is. 265
20 256, excuse me, tall. Um, and it's at the the top here, if you see my mouse. Um, 1212 roof pitch in, you know, the main body of the house. This little shed over here is a 612
um an asphalt um shingle, you know, tab shingle. Uh two over two window, double hung. Um let's keep going down. Here's the side elevation, left elevation.
Going. You guys can stop me anytime you want. elevation with the garages, garage door with lights in it, you know, a transom light panel at the top um to mirror some of the lights left and right. >> May I ask a question? >> Yes. >> Oh, with go back to windows for a
minute. What would you normally put in? I mean, I'm not asking for anything. I just curious, what kind of window brand would you put in that's a vinyl window? Usually, >> um, we we're using something called MI right now. It's the window out of Maine.
Um, very popular. Um, uh, Harvey got bought by somebody. So, you >> Lancing, >> thank you. Um, um, so MI seems to be the go-to at the moment. >> Thank you.
>> We've used quite a bit of them and they seem to work. When they break, parts are available. Um, let me keep going. One of the questions was asked is on the on the units that this we split one of these duplexes.
>> Yeah. The baby ones. Yeah. >> Yeah. We split a duplex in half to frame the entrance. This was Allen's idea to sort of break down the massing at that entrance. So rather than have a duplex there, break it down and have a little bit of a softer feel. So um the asked
the architect to give me the full elevations um for this. And so there's one on the right and one on the left. Unit one happens to be on the right hand side exiting. Um this the front elevation is the elevation that would face Sandwich
Road. Uh the right would be to the north. Um the rear would be on our internal that you know how we come in and we have a T. Uh and the left would be I guess to the south. No, I think it's
the other way. Have to go to the site plan. I think the garage is on the right hand side. So, um [clears throat] >> it would be the left elevation would be on the on that north side. So, it's not
the this is the elevation that you'd see as you drive in the entrance and look left. And then if we flip it the other way, >> are the half units also 256 in same? Are the half units the same height? same height. >> Okay.
>> Yep. >> All we did is split it in half. One one half is a two-bedroom, the other one side is a two-bedroom, the other side is a threebedroom. Um, and it doesn't show all the the detailing. He just gave me the line drawing here. Um,
I said they'd be all electric. I said they'd be white cedar shingle and clabird, painted clabboard, uh, three tab asphalt, architectural asphalt, shingle, loom, gutter. Um, there would be a composite deck. We would use some sort of trex or you know plastic kind of
deck um >> for the p porch and the deck. Same >> the rail would be that yeah it would be a a what we call a uh a rail system which is a composite um >> she's talking about the porch as opposed
to the deck. >> I beg your pardon. >> She's talking about the porch as opposed to the deck. They're going to be identical. >> It be the same material. >> Same materials. Yeah. same material if if the grading around the building permit in places um we'll step out of
the unit to a a patio some sort of concrete you know um but I don't know that we've gotten haven't thought about it that detailed yet >> so what caught your eye to replicate a project an existing project you're a developer why wouldn't you just do what
you do >> what what what c what what what in this design made you want to replicate Yeah. >> Um, couple of things. Um, I thought the massing of the building was was felt
residential. I mean, this this the overall scale of this building isn't a whole lot different than a single family home. In fact, it's less than many of the single family homes that you guys probably come across your desk you see around. Um, I like the fact that um, from a rental or for sale, you get a
garage. particularly in a rental 99.9% you know go to Liberty Green go to uh my project in Norwell go to my project in Mashby you don't you don't get a garage um so it's going to live as a rental product it's going to live very much
like a home ownership product um I like the fact that there was a mix of two and threebedroom uh units so you could appeal to different family sizes household incomes um Um, uh, I just
thought it was an an efficient footprint, um, plan overall. Um, and I didn't have to re, you know, it I talked to Mike, I talked to the property manager. Uh, it was accepted. Um, so it
I grabbed it. Okay. >> Because I I mean I could sell this product. I can also rent this product. >> Thank you. Would you ever go through a 183A sometime? >> 183A.
>> Condom minimize. I mean, I'm not even sure you could do that. It's a it's a 40B, but >> condo. >> Oh, condominiumiz. >> Yeah. 183. >> Well, yeah. So, if this were proposed as a a forale community, it would be a condo, >> right? But that's not something that's in your long-term plans.
>> I have >> because these are very much what you're saying. These are very residential. >> I guess I could condiment. No, I've never thought of that. >> Okay. I mean, I suppose as an exit strategy when >> Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. >> I'm not going to live 30 years. At least I hope I do, but um I'm 65. That if I
live 30 years, >> some poor sucker dealing with me. >> Don't go there. Don't go there. >> Um [laughter] I mean that could be an exit strategy, but um haven't haven't thought about it. >> Just curious. >> I have a question. You said that most
people don't park in the garage. How long is the driveway? our driveways. I think the shortest is 18 feet when we push the the houses back on the first four buildings. We shorten the driveways, >> so they won't be able to park back to back. >> Well, I mean, if you're driving a
Suburban, your tail is going to be, you know, half in the road. Not half in the road, it's going to be But if you drive a Yugo, you'll be completely in the driveway. The rest of the driveways are 19 to 20 feet deep. >> So only that front row, >> only that front row is a little crown.
It's not a through street. >> No, I was just thinking about the storage part of it >> because I mean all the bikes. You're going to find bikes laying around all these lawns and >> I haven't parked in my garage and >> I got scrapes all down my cars from putting my car in the garage from kids with bikes.
>> Yeah. No, I don't. >> That's what they do. >> My my kids and wife fill my garage so I get to park outside unless it's a big snowstorm. >> All right. Anybody have any other questions on landscape? I mean on architecture up here. >> No. >> No. Thank you. >> No.
>> Anything from you? >> Anybody from the public? >> Thank you. >> Good. Great. I think we're in pretty good shape. You guys have any other questions that he needs to take home with them for
homework or >> ask few questions. >> Yeah. What is >> Go ahead, Tony. >> No, I want to understand for time purpose, where are we going from tonight? Uh, once we get through tonight, what is next?
>> The applicant has asked, which I agreed with him, that he would like um August 27th. That way, he can take all that was said tonight and and compile and then present to us on August 27th. that he feels that gives him enough time to get all the details
>> and then it would be then a plan would likely be to close and have discussion >> if we need it to be. Yep. >> If we need Yeah. Whatever. >> Okay. I'm just trying to plan my next steps. >> Yep. >> Do you have anything, Brandon? >> I'm just here just in case.
>> Just hanging up. >> Just in case. And I'm going to grab the flash drive before I go. >> So that's Did I speak that properly or you want to come up and address that? I think I covered for you pretty well. >> Uh I like to always like to speak for
myself. Um yeah, I I um I suggested um that tonight's hearing be continued to August 27th. Uh Brandon, Allen, and uh Peter and I um believe that we can compile uh a complete set of all of the
necessary drawings. You know, we submitted them a year ago, whenever we submitted them. Um and we've had >> August 5th >> six six or so meetings a lot of good comment [clears throat] from the board peer review and the and the community.
Um some of which we've tried to hopefully most of which we've tried to um look at and embed in various um drawings that we've showed you. We if if if we're going in the right direction, we take all that information and we produce a new book, if you will.
And we we think we can get all that done by an early teen August teen date. Get it to you, Noren, and off to um the various peerreview consultants so they can do their um >> their thing.
>> Hopefully a um either last or near last tick and tac. Did we answer the question? Did we respond to the question appropriately? So that when we come here on the 27th, you have your input from your peerreview consultants on this
compiled package. Um you have a compiled package and you have an input from your peerreview consultants on whether that compilation package has been responsive to the issues they've raised, you've raised, andor the public have raised.
Um, and we make a uh, ideally we make a determination that our duction in a row and and close the public hearing, vote to close the public hearing. If there are still loose ends, we continue it to an early September date or a September date, I should say. Um, and and get
whatever loose ducks are not in line. >> Go ahead. Yes. That I appreciate that very much. And that gives me I would like to ask one more question, but I want to go into septic real fast just in case. Is that all right with you? >> Yeah. >> Do that. Is that all right? When when I
was reading through the notes, again, this I'm I'm keying off of what the board of health was telling us in this town at the planning [clears throat] board meeting Monday night about the very difficult straits we are in between the DP mandate
to stem the flow of nitrogen into our estuaries. Everything, every 40b that gets approved in this town is not helping us to do that. Even with IIA systems because they're not those that are not in the sewer system. It takes two, according to
our board of health, takes two really good IA systems to equal one house on a sewer system. I don't that's what they I I'm not an expert. I don't know that. So, when I was reading through the notes,
I had asked the question, "How many gallons per day?" And the and the notes say, "You mentioned 9,000 gallons per day." And I probably did the math wrong, but they're 182bedroom and 183bedroom. Doesn't that make Is that 90 bedrooms?
>> 72. >> How many bedrooms? >> Oh, no. >> 90. >> 90. >> And isn't Isn't this calculated under uh 310 CMR 15? I think >> 110 it would be 9900 gallons. >> Huh? >> Be 99. >> Yeah. So, so the real answer that's what
I want to get straightened out. The real interest you're 100 gallons under a onsite >> water treatment plant. All >> right. >> Just sneaking just get you just getting Well, that's what you got got to do that. >> I know. I understand. >> So,
we So, let me just ask a couple of questions because I want to get this out. Given the problem we have under this mandate. So, you've got one state agency, D saying, "Hey guys, you got to stop this. You got to stop this." We got another state agency, Mass. Uh uh
what what is it? >> Mass, not mass committee. >> Well, we got I'm going to get to that, too. >> Oh, >> the executive office of housing and livable communities. >> I was going to say something else, but um saying you've got to put more housing
in. You've got to put more housing in. So now we're competing with D says you got to stop putting nitrogen in and they're saying and you know if we said we're not going to do this because we're under mandate and we can't put more nitrogen. You're just going to run to hack and hack's going to say this is
where I'm going to come in with Hack's going to say we don't care what your nitrogen problem is. So you've chosen or at least your notes say you've chosen I guess there are two really there are maybe five or six D approved >> Mhm.
>> you've chosen the nitro >> correct >> which is rated for 10 milligrams per liter per day. >> Yes. >> Okay. Now the problem that appears to be happening uh in town with IIA systems according to the board of health is that
some folks are not maintaining these IIA systems. They're not they're turning off the electricity. They're not doing the servicing. So now you're degrading what is being taken off a nitrogen load. The sludge is not being cleaned. So you got a big um old collection system which I
can't even remember the name of it. Anyway, um what I also heard the other night is that some of these larger systems such such as your planning, you can actually get an efficient and you have to tell me if I'm wrong or right. you can actually
get an efficiency as as great as five milligrams per liter per day. We were able to get that through negotiation and DP of course was the final arbittor on that on the the larger development on
the street to an average of 3 to 5 milligrams per liter per day with they have an on-site because they have 50 around 50,000 gallons. You don't have that and you don't have to do the on-site. So my question to you is given again the level of responsibility the
stewardship we have to follow by the law 4A and 40B in this case 40B but there's a certain responsibility of stewardship that everybody in government has we pass by for a short period of time and we leave Falmouth it should be in better
shape we're not doing that we can't manage 40BS the way we should be to deal with the D mandate to keep nitrogen out. So, let me go back to that question. Is
there any way of a large system like the nitro system you're planning that we might get down to the 5 milligrams per liter per day on average, not a regular bit, but on average? Can that be done, do you think? >> Um, so first just to follow up, uh, I
have not checked the record, but if I had said 9,000 gallons per day, that was just a slip of the tongue. Um, just confirming it does show 99,900 gallons per day on our calculation. So, that was not was not trying to lie about what it was. I just miss, you know, didn't include >> I'm not playing. I guess >> just just to have it on the record and
the plans do reflect 99,000 per day. So, it is calculated per title 5 correctly. Um, the use of the nitro system is because there is the board of health regulations at 10 milligrams per liter or per day. >> Um, we you referenced the letter from DPW uh that came out after the D that
came out after the meeting this week. I have not re reviewed that so I don't want to speak directly to it. I've put it in my notes that that came out just a couple days ago and we will certainly take a look at it. Um we utilize the Nitro system because it's one that we've used for both large and small projects in the town of Fmouth. We know that the board of health likes it being used and
we know that it meets the requirements. uh with there being new directives to try and reduce that, we can see if there is a way to upsize that system or use another approved alternative system to get us to a lesser not just meet the 10 uh milligrams per liter per day but get to a you know closer to that 3 to five
number. I don't know if we can guarantee that but we can look into an alternative system based off that direction. >> And speaking as what I appreciate speaking as just one member that's what I would ask you to do. >> Yep. um and >> and then come back and then come back to us and on the 27th and tell us whether
or not that can or can't be done >> and if it can how will that be done if it can't why can't it be done >> so that it's in the record and on our findings with regard but we have you have as a developer we a responsibility
to this town to help not make this a worse place to live. It's not just you. It's the one next door, the one down the street, and the next one, the next one, and the next one that's going to happen. And Massachusetts does not allow this or any
ZBA to really manage these things well. And all we're doing is making our waterways worse and worse and worse. And we can't stop you from doing that. All right. D says you must.
the executive office of housing and livable communities say too bad and I want I'm saying this because I want the audience to hear this. All right. So I would like to have that in the next if we could. >> That'll be certainly something that we will review and have as you mentioned an
answer to that either yes >> or no and here is why. Yes. >> I appreciate that. >> Great madam chair. >> Yeah. Go ahead. Can I add to that? And can I add to your list of uh state agencies? Last Thursday, you guys found out that
the laws have changed and we've been neutered somewhat. Coincidentally, last Thursday, the Massachusetts last uh July 22nd, the Massachusetts Senate passed a measure it hopes we will create unprecedented
levels of new housing in Massachusetts. The legislation included in the Senate sweeping economic development bill would apply automatic two family zoning across Massachusetts allowing duplexes to be
built on most residential properties. So that is going to entirely exacerbate the problem that you speak of. And uh >> but not only that, our own town management is trying to get >> but the state already did it so they can you know >> I'm just saying
>> I don't think it passed yet. Did it? >> It didn't pass yet. >> It passed. >> I don't think it passed. >> But we have >> July 23rd. It passed >> in the Senate. And they'll have to go to committee and put it together. But, you know, they're going to throw both together. >> We have We have dueling boneheads in the
state of Massachusetts and probably in this town as well who I know I'm going to get criticized for that, but not even smiling at me on that one. Um, >> so anything you can do, I appreciate it. >> Can I respond?
>> Of course you can. Well, chair can tell you that. >> Please do. >> We will look at it. I I don't think we have I'm going to I'm going to say, you know, for what it's worth, you know, I I I was raised on the Cape. I've spent a
lot of time on the Cape. Cape has been good to me. It's a place I like. um take serious the responsibility and the role that I have to develop in a manner that is rational and reasoned. Um I have you know you're the point you're making is a
good point. I I you know I don't pee in my pool and swim in it. Um and I don't want to do that. If it's a if we can reasonably, rationally, you know, figure out a way to get something less than 10 without promising anything, we'll look at it and we'll we'll come back to you
and say whatever we say. Um, but >> I'm just I appreciate >> give it a do. >> I'm just I appreciate just asking you if you would asked me to put one in on my house and I didn't have to do it and I did it because because I don't want to. >> And you're maintaining it.
>> What's that? >> Did you say you put one in your house? >> Yeah. But you're absolutely right. You know, I looked at another deal in another town next to this one where a whole bunch of single family homes are going to be renovated and I wanted to put it on a 10,999galon system so the whole thing could be
managed and now it's going to be 30 individual IIA systems that aren't going to be managed. >> That's right. >> Not easy. So everybody's all set up here. We have a politics. >> Well, I think we should just um if for
our next meeting go through what we're looking to talk about. Uh I think one of the things that I had on my list was um presentation and discussion on waivers. >> It's true. We will have to do waivers.
So we should have I think an explanation you know from the developer as to what waiverss they're looking for and the rationale for that. Anything else you can think of? Do we have to worry about any easements or anything? This easement is on the
other. Okay. Okay. Okay, I think that's it. You're all set. You >> So we'll take a motion if anyone wants to >> move to continue to August 27. >> Second. >> A motion in a second. >> Any further discussion? All those in
favor? I oppose? None. See you next month. >> Very much. >> Thank you all for coming out. Good. Mrs. Harding. >> Yep. both >> big night out. >> There you go.
>> I won't be here that night, but I can miss one. So, I'm going to get through. >> Who was the second on that motion? >> I put one in my bag. >> You need
>> I'll see you next time. >> Fast. too low conditions. I'm not coming to Broken Bow because that's pretty basic. >> We'll be fine. Yeah. >> But I'll see you on >> this. >> Thank you, George. >> Yeah. >> Thank you, George. >> You're welcome. >> Thank you.
>> I am working on Broken Bow, though. I'm following it. I'll do the decision and stuff when you're ready. >> Thanks, Nor. I'll see you later. >> Thanks. >> All right, moving along. >> Good thing brought up way right over my head. Thank you, Norie, for bringing
those up. They >> Oh, that's fine. >> Didn't even think of them. Are we doing any minutes? >> Uh, we are tableabling. >> Tabling minutes. >> Next, we have Wes Fel. >> We have a question on minutes. Didn't
you suggest in an email that we may have to have a different procedure for approving minutes because we have a new person taking the minutes? >> Uh, yes. I wasn't sure if that was something people wanted to talk about, but we do have a new person who's taking
minutes. Um, I talked with the town planner slash uh development director and the practice for the planning board is different than the practice for the zoning board. What the planning board does is they have an individual prepare
the minutes and then the clerk >> Thank you, Mr. Dolly. is the individual who reviews slash tweaks the minutes and then they come back into the office and they're sent out to everybody whereas in the past we've been doing that editing
within the office. So it's just something for the board to think about. I know it's somewhat of a commitment when you realize that these minutes are virtually verbatim records of what was said. >> So Am I did I misunderstand we're not
going to get the same quality of min? >> Oh no, they are in fact actually the format I looked at just received today of the first meeting that this individual did and what they did was similar to other town records. There's
actually a number for each line. That's great. >> So if you are concerned about line number 29, it's very quick and easy to find something. That being said, anything short of you sneezing will wind
up as part of the transcript. >> So, I probably should not be using the term I used a little while ago. >> Yeah. >> So, essentially, >> which one and which time? >> Essentially, [laughter] >> line 28, how little, a while ago. >> Essentially, every word spoken is
recorded. That being said, we are of course taped by FCTV, so there's that record. Typically in minutes in other communities that I worked in, I would use the minutes as more of a summary so that people could read through them
quickly and get a glimpse of what transpired. What happens here in Falmouth is you have virtually a transcript of who said what. And so if it's a back and forth, like somebody asks a question and the answer is yes, like all of that is recorded,
which can be tedious to review. >> Very tedious. >> Yeah. >> So that's why >> speak again. >> I, you know, I don't know if it's something people want to think about, maul over. >> Will we have the minutes?
You'll still get them before. >> No, but we have the minutes of tonight's hearing prior to the 27th. >> Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I think the turns for I think the turnaround's pretty quick. I think >> Okay. >> The minutes that I got today were from the prior meeting. So, pretty quick.
>> Okay. >> It's just a matter of >> That's straight from the recording. >> Yeah. So again, >> it's it's all together more important that everybody is up that's up there >> speaks into the microphone. Mr. Dolly
has a habit of leaning against the wall and I can guarantee you the people at home can't hear him when he's speaking leaning against the wall and short people while I'm pulling it down. I mean if you ever watched before but it can be hard to hear at certain times and if they're depending to pick stuff up for
minutes I mean we could have a flaw there. I debate it's going to be as good. I think that Ashley took the best minutes, condensed them >> perfectly. Uh, made it easier for us. This will be I can guarantee you that as well. >> The other part of the problem too is
that when someone is brand new like with this board, >> they're not going to be familiar with what types of things should or shouldn't be included. >> So, things that Ashley knew.
>> Right. >> Correct. Correct. >> So I guess the >> So it's going to be just as good, but it's going to take us three times as long. >> Exactly. Right. >> But we get paid up here for you because it's going to be now it's literally like
a court transcript. I think it's very important that we not >> step on one another. We're speaking that you need to recognize who's going to speak. Let them speak. And so >> that's what I just said to Frank. It's going to be a lot >> very confusing otherwise. >> Yeah, >> it's that's what it's going to be a lot on the chair of any board whoever.
>> It's going to be very hard. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, I guess the question is like I say the what the planning board has done is they've assigned the task to the clerk. So what happens is instead of the minutes coming in and and being reviewed
by the office, it would be reviewed by the clerk and then the clerk would send the minutes back to the office and then the office would disseminate. >> I have to pay attention >> for people to review and vote. So I guess it's it's a question of you know
whether somebody wants to undertake >> that task. >> I think we should double Frank's pay. [laughter] two zeros. >> Zeros, >> two zeros for that's a good idea. >> See how it works out. But we've got this
new system. We have no choice but to >> to work with it. And then once we've done it for, you know, we can criticize >> then we'll be certain that it >> I do enough transcripts, Frank. I'm happy to give you a hand. >> I've done it, too. I just happen to think that um I've never really
personally never really approved of that type of minutes. I think if you just the open meeting law only requires certain information a synopsis >> that is fine but I understand why some people want to do the transcript type minutes particularly somebody who's
doing it remote that's the only way they can kind of relate to what we're doing >> right >> I think the other part too is longevity in that you know when you've become accustomed to something and you're using it all the time and you logically know how something could be condensed, but
when you're brand new, you really don't know what pieces are important or not. >> That's right. That's I agree with that. >> Okay, >> we was spoiled. >> Okay, so >> hope we all appreciate it while we >> all over now.
>> All right, now we have um West Felmouth Estates >> on case Oh, >> I'm sorry, Madam Chair. I was going to just make some suggestions on this. Um my understanding and please I correct me if I'm wrong or I think for the purpose we all know what happened but I remember the last time we had a decision like
this we had some constructive feedback that we need to be a little more transparent. So my suggestion would be that for the purpose of the record and people watching in the television audience tonight, we have a brief recitation about procedurally how we got here. And then my understanding is that at least based on the decision starting
on page 22, that's the where the hack has has changed the decision and imposed additional conditions that we just read those into the record. Is that nothing else has changed and previously that the decision has been publicly it was posted. It was read into the record and voted on.
>> Yes. I guess there just for your reference as well. Um there were a couple of tweaks that were made at the very beginning of the decision. Um, one of which was to add the letter R after the end of the case so that we're
understanding that this is the housing approved the >> after remand, >> right? And I think I also added in that um the that this had been appealed to housing appeals which our prior decision
of course had not. So, there's a couple of I guess factual tweaks in the beginning and then the rest is essentially exactly what the housing appeals committee directed us to change in the decision.
>> I think Mr. remarks that suggested the only thing we really need to do is to we want to go to the additional conditions imposed by the housing appeals committee as frankly would take us till midnight to do all
the other tweaks which many of them are just minor and inconsequential. >> Do you know the factual tweaks that were changed normie? So I believe I did not bring down the red line version with me.
>> I think a public of interest it's the conditions added by the housing appeals committee that would be of interest to the >> disagree. So on page 23 starting on page 23. Yeah. It says 23. I was just going to move to this, but
you go for it. >> Although we did have a few comments from the special town council that we worked on worked with, excuse me, and um you know there [clears throat] was I think you know obviously there were
items that were stricken. Um, one of the items that they brought up was um, the appeal period and you know the fact that we hadn't necessarily included within our decision that
the decision would be good for three years of time period of time but we didn't also have me mentioned that it that that period didn't include the appeal period. So, there were, you know, some little tweaks like that that um
that they corrected. >> So, those are just corrections to comply with the existing statute. >> Yes. >> It's not a new condition. >> No, >> that's >> So, do you feel you want you want to read them? >> Happy to read them in.
>> Go for it. Uh so the changes uh that are now incorporated into the comprehensive permit previously voted uh by the board that was then appealed to the housing appeals committee and remanded. Uh beginning on page 22 it states additional conditions imposed by the housing appeals committee. Continuing on
to page 23, small A. The development consisting of 20 total units including five affordable units shall be constructed as shown on the site plans as set out prepared by Atlantic Design Engineers LLC revised through December 17, 2024, exhibit 6, and shall be subject to those conditions and
requirements imposed by the board's decision filed with the Falma Town Clerk on January 13, 2025, exhibit 8 as modified by this decision. Small B. The board shall not include new additional conditions. Small C. The board's decision is modified to provide that the
developer is required to comply with all applicable non-waved local requirements and regulations in effect on the date of West Falmouth's submission of its comprehensive permit application to the board consistent with the decision pursuant to 760 CMR 56.02
local requirements and regulations small D. The developer shall submit final construction plans for all buildings, roadways, storm water management systems and other infrastructure to Falma Town entities, staff or officials for final comprehensive permit review and approval pursuant to 760 CMR 56.0510
small B. Small E. All Falmouth town staff officials and boards shall promptly take whatever steps are necessary to permit construction of the proposed housing in conformity with the standard permitting practices applied to unsubsidized housing in Falmouth. Small F. Construction in all particulars shall be
in accordance with all applicable local zoning and other bylaws, regulations, and other local requirements in effect the date of West Falmouth's submission of its comprehensive permit application to the board except those waved by the decision or in prior proceedings. In this case, small G. The subsidizing agency may impose additional
requirements for site and building design so long as they do not result in less protection of local concerns than provided in the original design or by conditions opposed by the board or this decision. Small H. If anything in this decision should seem to permit the construction or operation of housing in
accordance with standards less safe than the applicable building and site plan requirements of the subsidizing agency, the standards of such agency shall control. I no construction shall commence until detailed construction plans and specifications have been reviewed and have received final approval from the subsidizing agency
until such agency has granted or approved construction financing and and until subsidy funding for the project has been committed. Small J. The board and other Falmouth town staff, officials, and board shall take whatever steps are necessary to ensure that a building permit and other permits are issued to West Falmouth without undue
delay upon presentation of construction plans pursuant to 760 CMR 56.0510B that conform to the comprehensive permit and the Massachusetts Uniform Building Code. Continues on page 24, small K. Construction and marketing and
all particulars shall be in accordance with the presently applicable state and federal requirements including without limitation fair housing requirements. Small L. This comprehensive permit is subject to the cost certification requirements of 760 CMR 56.00
and EOHLC guidelines issued pursuant there too. Madam Chair, I think having read that perhaps a brief summary of the two major um impacts of this decision on our decision should be just summarized for
the public. One, we had approved 16 units. The housing appeals committee restored the developer request for 20 units. So the project is now 20 units. The other major impact that I see is that
the housing appeals committee decided that at the time the developer applied for the comprehensive permit, our health regulations did not require an IIA system. Uh at this location,
we put a condition in requiring IIA systems. The de the housing appeals committee determined that since at the time of application there was no requirement for IIA. But the requirement for IIE came during the the hearing process that we had no
authority no authority to uh request or require IIA systems on this project. So they're allowed to go back just to title five. So I think there are several other >> conditions big ones. Those are the two
major ones that I saw. >> So, Madam Chair, a question. So, we we had testimony tonight about all of the challenges that the town's under yet we get this document back. So, we have no avenue to appeal
this decision. We can't go to the Supreme Judicial Court. Well, I'm I'm not an attorney and I I shouldn't be calling anybody out here, but why hasn't town council given us some guidance here? >> So, >> we're approving now we're being forced
to approve 20 units with just title five system. So, we were working with special town counsel on this particular decision. >> Yeah. >> And um >> so I'm assuming a determination was made that they were not going to pursue this further,
>> but we've never heard any rationale behind any came to us >> and said this is the rationale for not going to we have a problem in town. It was discussed tonight. >> Exactly. This is just making it worse. And we're not going to fight this for 20 units,
>> not in safe harbor at the time of the application coming in. >> Four units, >> right? >> Four, I'm sorry, four units, right? >> Um, in uh one of the well, I'm not going to talk further, but I have a couple of comments
about this decision. Half you vote as to what we're doing. Uh, we also are directed to sign as Mr. Morris read into the record. So just for purposes of discussion, I would make the motion that we amend the decision in uh
west with estates in accordance with the decision of the housing appeals committee and executed and record it with the town clerk. >> I'll second the motion. >> Have a motion in a second. Any discussion? >> I still put in there in spite of our better judgment.
>> Well, you just said it. [laughter] I still don't understand why there we don't have a written correspondence from town council on optionality on challenging the decision. >> I'm just that's kind of >> too soon.
>> Pardon me. >> It's a George left too soon. >> I don't have answered the question. >> Very legitimate question. >> I know. >> I apologize but I just don't think I should vote for something. I mean the
answer I again I don't I'm just as concerned about nitrogen and the concerns raised by other members of the board but we don't go anywhere we're going to lose this on appeal title we have no jurisdiction over title five issues and wastewater as long as they're compliant with the
regulations and the hack has said at the time there was no IIA requirement so they're not going to >> I think that's >> struck the thing it I would prefer the IIA I think everyone on the board would prefer it >> absolutely but I think that's determinant if it was didn't exist exist at the time they file their application. >> I I look at this just like a remand from
the superior court like issue the decision with these changes. >> You know I guess the other thing I will offer you is that special town council did go and appear before hack and they made their best arguments on your behalf and they were not successful. So I think
the idea of now appealing further they probably didn't feel that there was anything further you were really going to gain. What I don't if I might what I don't understand is we have a housing appeals committee that acts in
the is legally allowed to act in this manner as a court but the superior court is it superior court >> generally appeals of the administrative bodies are taken to the superior court first and then >> but the superior court is a less biased
>> body than hack would be. Hack has one purpose and that is housing. >> All right. Spirit court. Wouldn't the superior court look at it in a more balanced manner? >> Not necessarily. They don't look at it on a day basis. In other words, they're going to start at the beginning and go
forward again. >> They essentially defer to the regulatory agency and it's our job on appeal to prove that the regulatory agency exceeded its authority. Not what? Not that we disagreed with it, but that they had no authority to do what they did.
>> And that's a very very daunting. >> It's a big hill. Big hill. >> Yeah. >> So that would likely be why town council would not want to pursue this. >> I don't know. I didn't talk to >> because you'd have to prove that hacks were hacks. >> That's right. >> Well, [laughter] exactly. >> At least they're named correctly.
Anyway, >> putting it, but yes. >> So, they're adding to the nitrogen loading, which is again against public health and safety, and we can't do anything again about it. the legislature just to look at these development issues holistically and they're not. There's just competing mandates from state
agencies and no one is looking at the big picture. >> They are looking at the big picture. It's not designed to help any one of us. It's designed to help >> I know exactly what >> All right. So, I guess we have a a motion in a second. I guess I don't unless >> we have a motion. We have I have
motioned it. Mr. Moore seconded it. >> Someone second. Yeah. Was it me? >> I I seconded I believe. Well, you included that you're the chair. >> Yeah. No, I I [laughter] thought I did, but it might have been you. I don't remember. Is there I I think it's an uphill battle >> that we're not going to get to the top.
>> Oh, pun intended with that place either. >> Exactly with that place. >> All right. >> So, all those in >> the winter, it'll be a downhill battle. >> All those in favor of the motion. >> I I >> opposed. Did I abain? >> Did you abstain? >> Yeah. >> All right.
>> We got an abstension. Thank you. >> I believe that's just requires a simple majority. >> It's not a special. It's a 40B and it's >> that would carry that, Madam Chair. >> Yeah. >> Oh, so >> all set on that.
>> Okay. >> All right. Boy, >> board discussion. >> Uh, Madam Chairman, I I apologize to the board. I was in trial in superior court last week and I'm sorry that I couldn't make the meeting. Uh, it was not I I believe >> Did they find you guilty?
Well, criminal trial, the client was very happy. I'm just leaving it at that. A [laughter] week and a half in trial. It was daunting and I had to prep him the night before. Uh, and I will not be here on the 27th of August. >> You will not be here on the 27th. >> Um, I know that that's we've got both 40bs. I will make sure I'm watching from
remotely and I'll execute the uh I'll form and I have u just about finished watching uh the one continuence from last week and I'll get the paperwork to you uh Norine. So, >> until ready to go. Yeah. Frank. >> Okay. Um, this is under uh board
discussion, but uh I'm making a public statement as clerk of the zoning board of appeals that this board has received uh an open meeting law complaint alleging that uh this board violated the open meeting law on July 23rd when it
discussed the uh nine Sycamore Street special permit. Um and we've moved to um uh dis dismiss the appeal on the basis of the fact that we had no jurisdiction.
Um it's an open meeting law complaint and therefore it is appropriate for this board to take a vote to refer the matter to town council for response. >> I will make that motion to refer to town council. >> Second that motion. >> Everybody else set.
>> All those in favor? I >> I >> I will ask to be marked as an abstension. I wasn't here that meeting. >> I was gonna say Tony's in on that one. >> Oh, yeah. I wasn't here either, so I can't vote on that. >> Oh, abstension. So, four. >> What? >> No, he wasn't here. So, it's >> Oh, three. >> Well, three, but
>> three carries. >> Three carries. >> I think it's just a simple mistake anyway. >> I mean, the the the party doesn't realize that we have email. >> No, no, we cannot discuss. >> Can't comment. Okay, board updates. Let's move on. board updates.
>> Okay. Now, one more thing. >> Okay. >> Um you um this board um tasked me with attending to the mediation on 163 Bay Road. >> Um I met with Eric Hammerland, the
associate town council, and we attended a on Zoom a mediation screening session, not mediation, but a mediation screening session with the owner of the property and the complaining neighbor. Everybody was there. Um, this case is in the This
is an appeal of one of our decisions relating to the aquaculture license that's being conducted at 163 Bay Road. Um, the case is in land court. Land court requires that all parties meet at least once before the case is assigned
for trial to determine if mediation is the successful way to resolve the dispute. Um, we did not reach a decision on the other day. This is um Tuesday morning. Um but um we we did reach a
couple of conclusions. One, we all all parties agreed not to mediate any legal issues that are if there are legal issues about what is a lawful use at the property. That would be defined or decided by a court.
the the only that leaves conditions um hours of operation various things like that. The owner and the applicant or the complaining party are still determining if they're willing to mediate conditions. They will advise us
in a couple of days. And if they do, they will mediate just themselves. We will not participate because there's no reason for us to participate. let them present to us the conditions they want and we will then determine if we should approve them. But the decision to grant
the permit oh excuse me to affirm the decision of the uh building commission itself is not going to be mediated. >> Good job. >> Glad you glad you was. >> Is that clear? >> Yes. Thank you.
>> Very good. >> Future agenda items. May I make a suggestion? Yes. Why am I talking so much? >> You're the clerk. >> Job. [laughter] You're doing a fine job, Adam, too. >> This isn't This is for our future uh meeting in
>> in October >> uh when we meet and discuss business. >> I I read this decision from the housing appeals committee on West Vmouth Estates and I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned in that. Um, it's very instructive about how the housing appeals committee looks at our
work, but how they think about our work and what we should know when we're deciding what to put into a decision. And I don't >> maybe we don't wait till October for that. >> Well, um, it's going to take a while and it's going to be a freewheeling discussion. Um, at least I think it will
be. But I think it's very it's very um instructive to read that decision and read their thinking. >> Their minds >> their minds. And I think we should all be aware of it. >> Yeah. >> I think their minds are one track.
>> Well, that's probably true, but we should know what it is. >> Always good to know what the other guy's thinking. >> No. In other words, I'm not suggesting we talk about West Falmouth estate specifically, but we talk about things like what is economic and what is
uneconomic, what conditions we have authority to oppose, what conditions we don't have authority to >> constitutes a health or safety issue. >> Also, the level of evidence that we have to have to back up our decision. um just something that's pulled out of thin air,
doesn't usually fly, but if we've got the testimony of the chief of police or somebody to back us up, then we're much better off and that kind of stuff. >> Yeah. >> No, that's a good point. >> And I guess then like um should be put
properly in findings. >> Well, it's something we have to talk about. The followup on that point through you, Madam Chairman, excuse me, um is that I think that it may require a conversation with the town manager because we need our own town subject
matter experts to come and make presentations. >> That's true. >> One page referral saying, >> "Okay, yeah." Or concerned about a turning rad, you know, it's a little different when >> someone comes in and says, "This is the concern we have with wastewater. This is the concern we have with the road
layout. this is the concern we have with topography versus just a written referral and somebody not showing up. So I think >> I have to agree with you because the planning board invited u the water department and the board of health to come and testify regarding these zoning
changes Monday night. They were invited by the chair and they showed up to be and they did out absolutely outstanding job explaining their subject area expertise. I think >> they are two professionals there. >> It was outstanding. I learned everybody
learned so much. >> Respect for those guys >> and I think you're absolutely right, Mr. Mo. Absolutely. You're right that we need to be able to get the same thing when we need it here. >> Well, that's the thing. When we need it. >> We can't do it every time. >> When we need it. >> When we need it. And we have to have discretion as to when we need it. But I
I totally agree and I've thought this for a long time that, you know, if there's a public safety issue, we have to have some public safety uh tobacos come and talk to us and tell us. >> So perhaps what would work for the board here would be that if there's specific
issues that arise or you find in referrals, we could then ask those specific individuals to attend >> perhaps. Yeah, >> I think for any 40b of some order of magnitude, we need to have somebody from water and we should have brought a
health person here to help us. >> We need need to know when we need to ask. >> Yeah. >> Right. Um, >> yeah, if it's three houses or three units, I don't I I think we can handle it. But anything over some order of magnitude, it would be nice to have that testimony.
>> And our timeline squeezes us so much um as evidence >> for the next uh 40B we have coming up, we could use some help. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Right. And the other thing that struck me about that decision is that once they find that the that the
decision is puts the developer in an uneconomic situation, that means his profit level drops below the 15%. Then every other condition following it falls. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> And who challenges the 15% calculation?
>> Yeah. But >> how come we don't get the numbers often enough? >> Because that's determined up at the state level, not here. Well, don't isn't it? >> Hence my term used earlier tonight. >> I thought it was true that if they claimed something was uneconomic that
they had to bring forth the figures to prove it. >> They do. The board can address that. If we >> We haven't. >> Well, I don't want to get into specific. I've asked can >> Well, if we're going to split hairs, we got to split airs. >> We can ask the question, will it make the project uneconomic? And they say yes.
>> So, it's that point that if >> that's all we're going to get, yes or no? a hard one because they say yes to almost everything. >> Anybody can say yes. You got to back it up with some >> numbers. So, from a testimony, Frank, we couldn't ask for it. >> No, I don't think we can under the regulations, but I don't think anything we can look up.
>> I I thought that if they brought it forth that they had to prove it, >> maybe they don't bring it forth. >> A question. >> Oh, they say it's you know, if you bring some they say it's uneconomic. >> We asked. No, no. They only do say that in response to something we do.
>> We've asked for. >> So, the burden is on us. So, >> well, there are ways of doing that, but I think it needs research. I've watched many for I've been part of many 40bs now, and there are ways of getting the answers, but you have to be very very
careful. But I'd have to do more research on it. >> Please do. >> All right. >> Sharpen up your hammer. >> You want to move >> your hammer? [laughter] Is that the end of tonight? >> Oh, wait. Yeah, I have to make my last
one. Our next meeting will be August 6th at 6:00 p.m. >> I'd be happy to make the motion that we adjourn and second. Do whatever we want. >> Second. Everybody's all set. All those in favor?