[music] [music] Welcome to the zoning board of appeals. I will need my glasses. Please silence cell phones and note that this meeting is being taped by FCTV. If there's any private party recording this hearing, step up to the podium, please, and request permission. I'll introduce
the board and staff. To my far right is Mark Fineran, a voting member. To his left is Scott Peterson, a voting member. To my right is Frank Duffy, the clerk. My name is Suzanne Murphy, chair. To my left is James Mos, vice chair. To his left is Tony Patuchi, an associate. We
have Noren Stockman, our zoning administrator, and Ashley Dlo, our office assistant. The zoning board of appeals is charged with applying the state zoning statutes as well as the town zoning bylaws in reviewing and voting on applications. All decisions are made through the public hearing
process. Our goal is to hear testimony from the applicants and the public and to allow a full and fair discussion of the project prior to closing the hearing process and reaching a decision. Number one, to begin each hearing, the clerk will read the public announcement for the hearing and read pertinent
information from the file. Two, the applicant or the applicant's representative will then have 15 minutes to make a presentation, but their time may may be extended by a vote of the board. Three, the board will then question the applicant. Four, the public will then be invited to comment. Comment
should be limited to two minutes and be strictly related to the proposal. All members of the public wishing to speak should wait to be recognized by the chair. Come to the podium, then state your name and address for the record. Speak into the mic and it will not amplify your voice and record audio for
FCTV viewers. And before we take up any hearings, there's a time that if anyone wants to speak on anything that's not on our agenda, you're welcome to come up for a public comment. [clears throat] Anybody? So, we'll proceed. Our first is
a continuation for 06525 Habitat for Human Habitat for Humanity. They requested a continuation. >> Madam Chairman, I'll make a motion to continue uh hearing 06525 Habitat for Humanity of Cape Cod, Inc. 48 Benjamin
Nane North Falmouth to February 9th at the request of the applicant. >> January 29th. >> January 29th. >> January 29th. Yeah. >> Second. I have a motion from Mr. Morris and a second from Mr. Peterson. And any
discussion? No. >> All those in favor? >> I. >> And then before we take on the first hearing, um we're going to take up number two, an open meeting, discussion, and possible vote on creation of a negotiating subcommittee to coordinate
with councils on 40B. And we have town, we had town council, others here for this. Good evening members of the CBA town council. >> How's everyone tonight? >> Good.
>> Great. So, um I uh provided a memo on the issue of creating subcommittees and I understand that there were some follow-up questions. So, instead of writing another memo that might cause more questions, I thought I'd just come in and we can talk about it. And I'm
here to answer any questions that you have. not just about the memo that I provided, but just about questions, just any questions about um the proposed course of action that you have. Um and I'm happy to walk you through um some of
the concerns that I have about creating a subcommittee to address 40bs. >> Anybody want to start off with questions? >> So, sure. >> Go for it. >> I read your memo. Thank you very much for that. very very helpful. >> You're welcome.
>> Um I think the conclusion says everything about it. The whole idea of a negotiating subcommittee is to be prepared is not to go off without counsel. It's not what we what we did
with some of the others that we had these subcommittees working. uh but it's to be prepared and have whatever the negotiating team is in place when there's an appeal and mediation is required or council does need us to do
something uh because it is after all the board's choice as to what we do and how we handle at least I believe that's the case um and it needs that liaison between the board council and the applicant when there's an appeal so the
idea of having this not waiting for council, whether it be special counsel or you to call for members to become involved. It's just sitting there waiting to do it. We don't have to have it. The votes already taken. It's a standing committee. That standing committee would then be disbanded at the
will of the the board when it wants to. People are replaced when they need to be replaced. But to sit and wait would not be prepared considering how many 40bs we have in this town. Uh we shouldn't be waiting. That's the way I see it. Is there any reason why we cannot have this
uh subcommittee just in place and ready to go? It's on the shelf. >> Yes. For all the reasons that I've already stated, I do not recommend it at all. Um the subcommittee would be subject to the open meeting law, which would undermine the entire purpose of
having a liaison for council. If if I'm understanding the purpose, the proposed purpose correctly, it would be to serve um whoever the the attorney is who is
managing an appeal. Um I think there's what you're proposing there are some fundamental misconceptions about about that relationship. um when there is an appeal, the strategy
is um directed by an attorney and the attorney will look for um for insight as to the direction that this board wants to go and then the attorney will affffectuate that. So when so what
you're proposing is actually backwards in my in my mind. So, what I've suggested in the memo and what I'm suggesting to you tonight is that when an appeal is taken, the attorney, if
needed, will request that this board um appoint members to work with the attorney. That way the open meeting law is not implicated and the two people the one person where however many
[clears throat] board wants will assist the attorney in um strategizing and implementing that strategy for litigation. >> So may I follow up on that? Can I just finish the >> So, if you do it the other way, the way that you're proposing to do it, one,
it's um it's backwards as far as how litigation is managed. Litigation is managed from the attorney's standpoint down and not from the other way. I understand that um what you're saying about how an appeal should um
encompass and memorialize the wishes of this board and that will always happen but the strategy has to be at the direction of the attorney. >> May I just follow up on that? >> I'm still not done. Let me just finish. Um what you're proposing is the
opposite. that this board create a subcommittee which would then be subject to the open meeting law and every meeting that this subcommittee litigation subcommittee had with the attorney would have to be open and and
open to the public. Agendas would have to be posted. Minutes would need to be taken. Um it's highly questionable whe how much of that uh would be covered by the attorney client privilege because of the way that it's created and it
undermines the ability of me, my associate town council and any special counsel to conduct the litigation at all. It really hurts our ability to represent you. >> And now you're done. Okay.
>> Yes. I wanted to give your full answer. I think there's a miscon Yes. I mean, I come from the corporate world. We don't wait for our attorneys to manage anything but the legal course of action. We direct. We expect our
attorneys to implement. And I understand that municipal government's a little bit different than that. All right. This board is the only board by statute that has the responsibility for a 40B.
Speaking just for myself and the experience we've had for the last what seems like a hundred years, last two and a half years, we need to be able to effectuate the outcome. Legal strategy is an attorney's responsibility.
Business strategy is is another respon I'm not business is probably strategy is probably not the right term for it. strategy of where we want to end up is what this board should be doing because it's the only one responsible for a 40B.
There is no meeting of the subcommittee if it were to be formed prior to council you or special town council saying I need you to do this. There would be never never a meeting. It's just couple people sitting on a shelf never communicating, never having a
meeting, never having an agenda. It's just sitting there waiting to be called by you or by special counsel. I I so I don't see where we're creating a problem. So, um I'm going to use your words
and this proposed subcommittee would never meet and never never take any action unless called by the attorney to form to formulate. So in hearing that
I am certain that the subcommittee is not required at all unless and until an attorney requires some assistance in managing the litigation. For that reason alone, you're creating um
a grave concern that I have that the subcommittee will violate the open meeting law on on almost every turn because of the way that it's created. I don't see why
given that I I think we have the same idea about what the purpose of the the group is. I don't see why you can't wait for the attorney to call for a group to be created >> or that it wouldn't be.
>> Somebody has to direct what I'm going to call the business side of a negotiation. That is not the attorney's responsibility. It is the board's responsibility to make sure the attorney understands where we want to go. When we can get to a point where there's
something to talk about, that committee comes back to this board, brings them up to date, and if there's a vote to be taken at that point in time, then a vote is had. But the deliberation is had. The board may say, "No, you know what? We want you to go over here with this. This is what we want." I don't see it as the
attorney telling the board what it's going to do. I see the attorney saying, "Look, you can't go here because the law says you can't go here." That's what I see. It's it's just like being in corporate life. The attorney keeps you in the guardrails and then goes to court for you.
>> So you do understand that there's no open meeting law in corporate life, right? We can agree on that. >> No, absolutely. Of course I do. >> Okay. So that is my concern and the it the crux of my concern is who creates the committee. If the attorney calls for
people to help the attorney with that litigation, then the open meeting law doesn't apply to any any conversations, any meetings of that group. If we do it the way that you're proposing, then I
have a fear that those conversations among the group will not be confidential and that this the strategy, the litigation strategy and all of the things that you want the group to talk about to guide
how this board um wants to manage the the substance of the litigation. All of that will be open to public scrutiny. It is absolutely vital during the course of litigation that conversations with an attorney remain confidential so that you
don't tip your hand to the other side with the subcommittee. I don't I don't believe that that will remain sacred. >> How can we be guaranteed that if it were you or it was special town counsel that
this board would be included in the strategy? You have to be we we can't make decisions without you. I mean there are day-today things that certainly are are you know we have conversations regularly with opposing council about
administrative things and um but but the decision to um of the particular course like the substance of how the litigation
will proceed as far as um defenses or um the premise behind a particular motion that's going to be filed. Uh that I would I would not I would not file a motion without consulting with the client.
>> One one last thing and I promise I'll end. >> All I ask is this. If that were the way this board decided to go is I would not want my attorney whoever that is coming back to this board and saying this is what I negotiated for you because once
two attorneys come to terms it's very hard to break that. is all of that built-in trust between attorneys and I would not want to have this board's attorney come back say here's what I negotiated for you and then we have to turn it around and say no this
is not what it just costs a lot of money time and effort and it makes the the appeal even that much worse and I will if you want to respond please do >> I just wonder how many attorneys have hurt you I mean I >> oh I' I've believe me I I've managed not to have them do that
>> yeah No, I let it go. I I I hear your mistrust and it's not mistrust. No, please. It is not mistrust. >> Let me put this way and I and I apologize for arguing with you on this because you do know more than I know about this stuff. You truly do and I
understand that it's mistrust not in you, not in special tasks, but in the system, the way it operates. We are left out of it. We do not want to be left out of it. We want to direct it and I have to leave it that way because
other board members want to speak. >> I I will just say this. It is important no matter what the outcome of whatever decision you're going to make here. It's important for me to hear that as your attorney. I do need to know how you want
this relationship to work. I don't have sufficient communication with this board to to be able to to do my job properly for you. I don't think and hearing things like this is absolutely vital
because if I understand and if special counsel or associate counsel understands that you want this relationship and the communication to work a certain way, it can absolutely work that way. So, some some boards, some clients don't want us,
they just want to have us to take care of the litigation and let them know at the end. Other boards, other clients want every phone call. They want to report back on every phone call, want um input on every single thing that happens, and that is perfectly
acceptable. If that is how this board wants to manage that, that's fine. I just don't want you to create a subcommittee for the purpose of it. Could I guess [clears throat] one workaround I was wondering if if in fact we're going to enter into litigation let's say on a 40B
>> if the gating item was that and then your first course of business was to call and say I would like to have this >> group one person two persons to be enacted as your first course of action. >> Yeah. >> That protects everybody. that protects
and make sure the board is is involved as of day one. And would that be okay with you? >> Done. >> Okay. So, so I guess is that a vote that we have to take that the first course of action? >> I know. I'm just >> the point is that when you when the
attorney who's responsible for the litigation >> makes the request that this board appoint liaison correct >> to assist in the appeal that create those two people or one person are not subject to the open meeting law >> correct >> and it gets rid of all of those problems
just as Mara has explained >> that's why >> the idea of a subcommittee that the word itself creates the problem >> right so that's I'm just saying as soon as >> the town gets brought into litigation council's first action is to call to have the
assistance of the board members. >> Yes. >> But it takes us a lot of phone calls to get any response. That's the problem. >> I'm sorry. Could you explain that a little bit more? >> Your point? Yep. >> Um I've made many phone calls to town council and got no action
>> to me. >> Yes. >> That I haven't that I haven't responded to. >> Yes. >> Can you give examples? Um, I spoke to you on a Friday afternoon to get something to me and nothing came on Monday. Nothing came on t I phoned Monday. I phoned Tuesday. I phoned
Wednesday. It came here at 4:00 or whatever it was. >> It was later than that on the third day. Yes. >> And that's that wasn't sufficient. >> Absolutely not sufficient >> for me to draft and and send you a memo. >> Yeah. That's outrageous for you to have
that kind of standard for me to respond to you with a written memo. That does not happen. You could have called me back. I understand that. >> I'm I'm really busy. Sorry. >> I think we did talk. You called You called every day. >> Yes. >> I I responded to you on the first day when I wasn't at work. I was I was
>> I didn't know that. >> I know. Because it didn't matter because your your phone call was incredibly important to me and I called you on my time off. And then when I returned on Monday, it took me three days to do that and I dropped every everything else that I was working on to get that memo.
>> I didn't know that. >> And I'm sorry that it wasn't quick enough for you. >> I I didn't know. I was waiting for them because I knew the vote. I didn't know if I have to have it on the agenda. I have to know on Monday if it's even going to be on the agenda because I have to do the 48 hour thing to put it on the
agenda. That's when I phoned on Monday. Nothing. So then I >> I did return your phone call on Monday and I didn't return it the next day because I was busy writing the memo. I got it to you on Wednesday >> and [snorts] >> it's not the only example. >> So I'd love to hear other examples because I think I just gave you a great
example, you know, a great explanation for for that complaint. >> First off, is there any statute law or rule that says we can't do this? The answer is no to that. Correct. So the so the answer is you can do it and there
are absolute negative ramifications for doing it and I do not recommend it. >> Well to expand on hers uh the chair's uh point >> I go back to Sandwich Road >> to say >> we and it was a long fight to get
outside council. I don't think there's anybody in this room that will argue that that was the rest the the best action that this board could have taken. And uh it was delayed for weeks. I mean we're we're
in some total this is one of the best boards I've ever witnessed. Um, and I think we're certainly capable of taking care and decided what our action should be. Um, [clears throat] I
I I just see no reason for this. Uh, we don't have time to sit around and wait sometimes and um, maybe that's too >> broad or general. >> I understand what she's getting at. She's she's getting at that if we go and appoint it now where if it's Scott and
you, let's say it's you two, you're going to be sitting around talking about the case all the time or whatever. >> She says if we don't appoint the two people today, then the open meeting law is >> gone away. It's dust. If we do appoint
two people today, the open meeting law applies >> immediately. >> Immediately. >> Yeah. >> So, >> so what's wrong with that? But I mean, we don't sit around and talk about this stuff. Even I'm I'm just worried that we're not going to find out.
>> I'm I'm inaction bothers me. >> Yeah. >> It's it's hamstringed us on numerous >> occasions. Um and um hurry up and wait isn't the game we should be playing.
>> I say we give her a chance. We we we we went through this with with and it was a big long fight and it was a four to three vote in the end >> and and I think when all said and done >> everybody knows that we did exactly the right thing and we would have been in a
better position had we done it one month earlier. >> Um and also I'm just going to say and in that month we were left high and dry. >> Yep. And [clears throat] I don't I mean I I'm here for a reason. I mean, and I'm not here to twiddle my thumbs, and I'm
not going to spend all the time I spend unpaid doing this to to be treated like a secondass citizen. I say we give this her um thing of we take no action because it's going to make her nervous or whatever it is. And
>> excuse me, >> it will make you nervous if we have two board members appointed. >> Nervous. >> Will be nervous about us talking to each other or whatever it is. You were worried about open meeting law violations. >> Open meeting law. Let me tell you something. >> I' I've been involved in open meeting
law violations in this town probably a dozen times and I prevailed probably 10 of them out of 10 out of the 12. I don't keep track because I don't care what what what what happens, you know, what's in the rearview mirror doesn't bother me. I only look forward. But
>> um I I don't >> I think this is quite capable of taking its own actions. I think we should give it a chance and if we find out there's any any delay, which there shouldn't be. I think she
understands we're worried about delay. >> I don't I don't know. >> If I may, Madam Chairman, >> go for it. >> Thank you. Um, first off, I have been nothing but I think and I not going to speak for the full board, but I will say based on comments that have come back to the board, I think everyone has been
exceptionally pleased and happy with the members of the board who've been previously put on uh any sort of negotiation team uh with special counsel. Um and I think though that it's very important. I I know that some of the advocates based on uh the previous
meeting have come from the business world and I certainly understand in the business world you instruct your council and a good council and with a private client usually will say well what do you want the answer to be [snorts] and then we'll craft their argument as such. U I will just say in defense of our town
council government law is a little different. You have to say no as I'm sure Mr. Duffy will hopefully chime in and say that you have to make unpopular decisions at times and you have to say no. We've been given a suggested course of action. I think that yes, I think the board can most likely manage uh open
meeting stuff. I'm against this at this point only for regardless of what town council has instructed about the open meeting. I think we're putting the the cart before the horse. I don't think we're going to lose enough time that if we end up making a decision, the decision is appealed,
depending on how it goes to hack or to court. At some point, I think we would have sufficient notice that, okay, there's a judge or an administrative body who wants to remand this for mediation. They understand that a board has to then take some action to either authorize a certain course of action
with the attorney or to appoint people. So my suggestion with this and again I'm not trying to unseat our negotiating team because I'm very happy with the members of the negotiating team to date. >> Well I think that's a given that that's our our negotiating team is established and anybody that wanted to change
>> that can change with time and that could change with the case or the circumstances and I think it's improper for a board to delegate their decision-making authority cart blah. It should be it should be very carefully and soberly reflected on on a case-byase basis and I don't think we lose enough
time to do that. So >> your your example, cart before the horse. Um before the cart, horse before the cart. I mean, I I I think it even gets more fundamental. Does does the cart need to be moved? Um
we we've whatever we've lost time before and uh >> have have we had an adverse action taken against us because our negotiating team wasn't put together or ready to go at a moment's notice? I think the answer is not yet. May I ask a question of council?
>> So 40B is appealed. We don't hear anything other than it's been appealed. I would uh suggest, and you tell me if I'm wrong, I would suggest that the minute we know it's appealed,
we request town council to request a negotiating team. Right? because we want to affect the outcome. We're also going to want to know that the opportunity exists to have a frank discussion with
the applicant. Cost the town less money and litigation. All right? And it gives us an opportunity to bring everybody together. But I would want to be assured the minute we heard there's an appeal that whoever counsel the time reaches
out to this board because I don't want to be involved with any open meeting violations for sure. I mean, Mr. Finan's able to navigate those things better than me, but I'm not I don't want to be involved. But I have to be assured as a member that these things would happen.
Um, that's all I'm that's all I'm saying. minute we hear there's an appeal, I would expect special time counsel with counsel to request the negotiating team because that's exactly the time I want to say to council, where you're going with this. This is where we
think you should be going with this and that's the way it should go. Town council or special counsel has to say, "No, no, no, guys. You're going too far outside the guardrails. I need to bring you in here." And I've said this in the past. You take something all the way to
the edge and you look over to see what is there and council needs to pull you back when you get too far over. And that's what I depend on my attorneys in this case town council to do is make
sure we don't fall over the edge. That's all I'm saying. >> It's a very simple ask and something that can absolutely be done. >> Does notification of appeal go to you first or you first? We both get it depends same time >> exact same time.
>> I guess the question I would have here and certainly um Miss O'Keefe can address that as well is that if um a board's decision is appealed, there is an offer for mediation which
the developer may or may not accept. And if they do not accept to proceed with mediation, having a negotiating committee is of no value. >> I disagree with that. I I still think it's very valuable to have an a direct
inroad >> to the board >> to um facilitate the flow of communication. And um it's it's very important for any attorney to have an understanding of the sense of the board, to be able to get background information
that the attorney is not privy to, the history, the background. That all goes into a successful um litigation strategy. And even if mediation isn't um isn't something that happens at the
very beginning, it could be taken up later down the road. Um the hack in particular will push for mediation. I always highly recommend it. Um so having a negotiation team ready to go is is I I
think a great idea. And also just to have a couple of people to to be able to tap into the knowledge base, the factual knowledge base, I think is essential. >> I Madam Chair, go ahead. I just heard you say something.
Having a mediation team ready to go. What you're asking is that we don't have a mediation team ready to go. >> No, no, no. I so I I think I was just countering what Norin was saying about um about that there there might not even
need to be a team if mediation isn't isn't taken up um ready to go meaning as soon as the appeal comes in then like you've asked and I'm happy to happy to happy to do as soon as the appeal comes in the first course of action would be
for me to reach out to Norine to get on the next agenda so that we can set up some sort of communication team. Call it what you want. Mediation team, negotiation team, communication team, couple of people to help with the litigation, >> but not in advance. We advance because
of the open meeting law. Correct. >> Versus attorney client privilege. >> Not not just that, but it the the open meeting law implications hinge on who who creates the team. So, and this is this is I think the the conflict that
was perceived by the board in my memo. Um, the conclusion is that if if the attorney says I need a team, there's no open meeting law. If you say we need a team, open meeting law,
>> right? >> And it's that simple. >> What if the attorney doesn't want a team and we want to be involved? >> I will say you need a team. If I hire special counsel, the first thing I will Well, first of all, it's it it always takes me a little bit to hire special
counsel, I have to I have to make sure that counsel is available, is not conflicted out, and then I have to get a contract signed before they can do anything. That's wasting a lot of time. Yes. from what I'm hearing. Um I'm what
I will do instead is um begin representation my myself and immediately get on the next agenda to start some sort of communication strategy request
um a liaison between the board and and town council's office while I'm hiring special counsel if that is called for and then I will just tell special counsel I've called for a mediation negotiation
leaison team here they are >> madam may I ask a question what I would need to know is what stands in your way if anything at all uh if it's not you
being our counsel at that moment for that mediation or the appeal a special town council has to be hired because that's additional funding. That funding has to be obtained by I believe the select board or you have your own fund. I don't know how this
works. So my concern would be that um somebody would stand in the way of hiring special town council in the way of this board fulfilling its obligations under the statute >> and that comes from experience. >> Yes.
>> So um what's your question? So the question is, does anything stand in your way when you have to reach out to hire additional counsel such as special town counsel? Does anybody impede your path to doing that?
>> So the decision to hire special counsel is based on a couple of different factors. Um >> I'm talking about >> the budget. Yep. The budget. Um and uh the other factor is my assessment of the
litigation. So for example um it was an easy easy decision for me to make when safe harbor was challenged. I knew that attorney Poocci was was well experienced in this exact kind of litigation and I
know that he has had a successful relationship with this board in particular and that was an easy ask and it it's my request um that goes to the town manager to hire special counsel knowing that it may cause an additional financial burden and
then the town manager weighs um the validity of my request and my recommendation. And there was no hesitation here in that instance. >> I see. And I just want to bring this out so the entire board hears it. There may or may not be a flaw in the process, which is always my worry when
it comes to government. >> Um, this board has an obligation under the statute. It's the only one that can manage a 40B. The only one. Town manager can't. Select board can't. Planning board can't. No one can.
What would this board do if someone in town government got in our way of fulfilling our obligation under the statute? How would we deal? We don't have a budget. Can I um I'm assuming this is true now. I know
it was true in the past that there is money for outside council council built into your bud budget. Um there there certainly was in the past because I'm very good friends with someone who was the chairman of this board for 10 years and I know that was the case. Uh if
that's >> not the case now, I'd be um kind of surprised and I think it's um uh shortsighted. Um, and I mean this all comes from us being denied
what we knew was right in the past. Um, and we had to fight to get our outside counsel. And um, you know, maybe we're just naming this thing wrong. Um, I don't know.
Again, I get if the litigation starts, the triggering event is you get us on board with you or you get us on board without outside. >> Whatever's fastest >> and that's that's your first move. >> Yes. >> I'm really okay with that. >> I'm good with that, too. >> I'm good with that. >> And the the special counsel money is in
the town council's budgets, not in the board's budget. >> Well, it's there. >> I don't think so. We don't have a budget. >> We have no budget. >> Well, there's there's money set aside for outside counsel. That's my statement. That is correct. All right. Whether it's
an herb budget or not, it is there. It's always been there. >> It's at my discretion, though. >> Okay. That's all I said. I don't I don't know the intricacy of it. Listen, it's not my job, but it's not I might cut a little sharp. So, does aam's razor the simplest.
>> Listen, is always the best. >> But it's not our decision. That's where the problem lies. >> We have no say. None. >> That's not true. >> Say last time we had to vote for it. We had to fight for it. It was a >> So that's that's not true. That's not what happened last time. What happened
is a vote was taken without my input at all and that can't happen. The decision the this board cannot vote to hire special counsel. You don't have the ability to do that. I'm happy to to take requests or recommendations for that to
happen. I don't want to hang this board up to dry and I want to make sure that you're represented properly. Sometimes that will mean that I represent you. Other times it will mean that I know and I recognize that I'm not the person to
do that. That decision is mine. Um so the delay the last time this came up was because the process wasn't followed. We had to go. We had to deal with the fact
that a vote of this board took place without my knowledge and without my input and it was done improperly. And once we writed that ship and were able to I was able to weigh in and recognize that outside counsel was
needed, then I took care of that. And it did take time because the process wasn't followed properly. So, I I I'd like to put that in the past. I'm disappointed that it's coming up yet again. >> I think >> we can't forget
>> I can't forget that this board tried to tried to >> take my job away from me and we should >> that's unfortunate. >> Okay, I think we're all set on this. We've pretty much agreed. We're just tableabling this, right? >> Um well,
>> there shall be no vote. I think we just leave it on the agenda and bring it up if we have to at some point. >> But as long as we're all >> No vote tonight on this, correct? >> Turn the council has agreed to notify the board as >> ASAP. >> And >> that's got to be in the minutes,
>> right? >> Okay. Cool. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right. Moving along. Next, we have a new hearing. 08425 Broken Bow Residences.
Okay, I will um read the public notice of hearing. This is application 084 of the year 2025. Broken Bow Residences LLC has applied to the zoning board of appeals for a comprehensive permit pursuant to chapter 40B to construct 12
home ownership units within six duplex units. Three of the units to be affordable. The property is located at zero, also known as lot 001A, Broken Bow Lane, East Felmouth, Massachusetts. Um, before I read the relevant facts, I'm going to make a
motion. Um, I make the following motion on behalf of the zoning board of appeals. I move that the Falmouth zoning board of appeals has the grounds to declare that a denial or approval with conditions of the application is consistent with local needs as defined by general laws chapter
40B sections 20 to 23 and 70 and 760 CMR that's code of Massachusetts regulations 56.031A 031A and 3A because the town subsidized housing inventory exceeds 10% and
further under 760 CMR56.031B 031B and and 4 uh for municipal compliance with its approved housing production plan and to provide the requisite 15 days written
notice following tonight's hearing to the applicant and to the executive office of housing and livable communities. >> Second the motion. >> We have a motion by Frank, second by Jim. Any discussion?
>> All those in favor? I oppose? None. So relevant information here. We have this property at u zero broken bow lane eastmouth uh owned by broken bow. The applicant is broken bow residences LLC. They're a limited dividend organization.
Uh they have applied for a comprehensive permit pursuant to general laws chapter 40b sections 20 through 23. >> To interrupt, excuse me. It's Brokenbo LLC. Do we know the names? Broken >> in case there's a conflict with anybody up here. [clears throat]
>> Broken bro Residences LLC. >> The members of the LLC members William and Karen Curley. >> Excuse me. >> William and Karen Curley. >> Karen Curley. Okay. >> Okay. >> Thank you. Sorry. >> All right. So, where was I? They've applied for a comprehensive permit under
general laws chapter 40B sections 20 to 23 and 760 code of Massachusetts regulations 56.00. Um the property is is a split. Uh part of it is in a general residence district
and part of it is in an AGB agricultural B district. Uh it's in the great pond overlay district. There's no flood zone necessar identified. The um
uh lot is 69,544 square ft of which 10,252 square ft are general residents and 59,292 square feet are AGB. Um, we have a
um Massachusetts Housing Finance Agency site approval dated uh September 16, 2024, which was originally filed with respect to a previous application from this U applicant, but the MHFA determined that a new site approval
letter was not necessary. There are 12 units of home ownership, nine market, three affordable at 80% of AMI. There'll be six duplex buildings. Street frontage is identified at 317.55 ft. 100 is required. Open B lane is a
private right ofway at this particular neighborhood. There's vacant land, so there's no buildings affected and no no noted nonconformities. Um we have some referrals. Uh we have engineering. They have advise us. They have want us to pay attention to storm
water erosion control. They also advise us that there'll be no municipal trash or recycling, that there'll be no municipal snow plow. They recommend a sidewalk, and they also note that Broken Bow Lane is in disrepair. The conservation commission had no
comment. The water department advises us that town water is available. The housing coordinator reports that uh she noted that there are no H handicap units in the proposal and also the town's priorities rental units. The affordable
housing committee uh has a letter in support but some questions which we will ask the applicant to address during his presentation. Um wastewater department has advised us that the sewer will be available in the fall of 2027.
Uh also that a flow neutral u variance will be necessary and that will be our responsibility to address that issue. Uh the planning board has also sent us a referral. They note that the sewer will be low pressure. So that means grinder pumps will be will be
required. So they asked a question who will be responsible for maintaining and paying for the grinder pump maintenance. They've also commented that they're not really pleased with the design of the buildings. Uh they have issues about a playground. Sidewalks to Route 28. Storage sheds are recommended and
fencing for detention basin. >> More units too. They asked for more units too, >> right? More units. More affordable. >> Yes. Affordable units. >> More units. >> Yes. Sorry. Yes. >> Nick, can I ask a quick question before
you proceed? Is the plan that's dated September 1224? The one we're supposed to use for this project? >> No, I believe it's the 1120 dated one. >> It's this this one here. >> I'm sorry. September 12th. Yeah. >> September 2024,
>> right? Yes, that's the one I've got up on the screen. >> So, the plan itself has not changed at all other than the ownership aspect. >> Not since that, >> correct? >> The ownership >> nothing has changed on the September 12, 2024 plan except for ownership.
>> No, the same same owners that we submitted under >> No, the they're not going to be rentals now. They're going to be ownership. >> Oh, correct. >> That's the only difference. all the calcs >> more units when it was rentals, >> right? So, the plan is a little bit different then.
>> The plan is a little bit different. >> Okay. >> But this this is the plan we're submitting at this time to show the layout, >> drainage, the water sewer connections. >> Okay. I just wanted to check. >> Go ahead. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
>> All right. I'm Nick Marioni representing the African Broken Bow Residences LLC. And as I as I go forward, [clears throat] I just want to be on the record saying I disagree with the fact that you claiming to be in safe harbor and proceeding in that assumption.
>> Wait a minute. >> What >> is that? Uh >> he's on record saying that, but if he doesn't appeal, he's he's got it's up to him, not us. >> He is proceeding as if we're in safe harbor. That's what you just said. Yes.
>> So, this this project is uh located at this bend in the road at Broken Bow Road, Broken Bow Lane. It's 1.6 acres approximately. It's got fairly level topography with
about 10 foot grade change within the site except in the detention area in the back of the project which where all the drainage is going to go to. We're proposing 12 three-bedroom units, each with two bathrooms, approximately
1323 square ft each, and all have full basements with direct access from the inside. The building height will be 23'6. We require two parking spaces per unit, 24 total spaces. We're providing 32
and eight of those 32 will be handicapped. I'm sorry, three three of the 32 will be handicapped and eight additional spaces, three will be handicapped. The project serves by town water, town sewer with no intention to start construction until the sewer is
available. The underground electric um we're adding a hydrant to the project. Right here in this location, the middle of the site is presently a hydrant at this spot that we're moving to the other side of this driveway.
We're picking up the drainage problem that's in Broken Bow Lane at this curve and tying it into our drainage system. So, it ends up down in our detention pond and drains where it's supposed to go, where it should be going now, but
it's not. It's public. I think that outlines the project pretty well. If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them. >> Just wanted to confirm that I heard it correctly. You will not start any portion of the project until the sewer is available. Is that correct?
>> That's the intent. Yes. And that doesn't mean we not clear the site or get the site prepped, but we won't pull building permits or do any work on the houses until it was installed and we can connect to it. It wouldn't do us any good. I don't think we can get a permit till Sue is available.
>> Agreed. Okay. Thank you. >> Go ahead, Mark. >> Stack down there. >> Yeah. >> I think he said to start down this end. >> Oh, you said start. I thought he said should I start down there? You want to start? I um
at this point I madam chair at this point in time I don't have a lot of questions. I would prefer to um ask my questions at a later date at the continuence of this. >> Okay. >> So I may have to come back once I hear a
few other comments and may want to interject at that point if I might >> call us bookends. >> Jim, do you have anything? up broad strokes a few. Um, Mr. Marion, why was there a decision made to change from rental properties? Obviously, rental properties for this board's perspective
are preferable to ownership. All 12 would have gone on subsidized housing inventory. This way, we only get three. >> Well, when we when we had the first rental project, it was 16 units. When the when the
when we decided to go the lip process, we had to increase the number to 20 to make the numbers work. And they didn't like the building designs, the hotel six, motel 6, whatever you called it there. >> I think we called it the base actually.
>> So, so what we had to do was shrink the size of the project back down to 12 units. It doesn't work as a rental for 12 units. We went to home ownership. Thank you. Um, you indicated you're going to put a fire hydrant in. I understand plans change. Generally, where do you plan to locate that
hydrant? And if you know, could you do you know approximately where the next closest hydrant is? We have not had a fire department referral. And I'm going to make sure we get one. >> The hydrant we're adding is right here in this location. And the one that's existing is presently on this side of the driveway. We're
relocating it to this side of the driveway. >> What are you planning to put in uh utility wise? the 5 in water man 12 in how probably a six six uh utility pole is going to be buried or underground. >> Yeah, the riser pole is already here.
It's right in this location. We'll start with the transformer in a vault right here and go underground from here. >> Uh obviously we've had a lot of referrals from engineering. I think the board will most likely expect answers to those at the next uh meeting. And I would again thank you madam chairman.
I'll reserve additional questions after hearing from a Butters as well as uh responses to engineering. Thank you. >> I have a few for you, Nick. >> Um uh I want you to come back when you come back with an answer on the grinder pumps
on who's paying for upkeep and everything of the affordable housing units. >> No. Well, the grinder pumps will be installed by the owner when you're building the project and sold to the residents. >> And then they're in charge of it forever, >> right? >> You wash your hands.
>> They may owe the sewer fee going forward to >> Well, Amy Amy indicated they're going to need pumps no matter what. Even with sewer, >> we would have to every unit will have to have a grinder pump because it's low low pressure. >> So, the affordable people are not
getting any. They're paying for a grinder pump upkeep. included in the sale price. >> They will have to pay for the annual maintenance of sewer. >> Okay. >> There's no annual maintenance. >> Okay. >> You got to pay double your water bill though. >> And then did you read the planning
board's referral? >> I did. Yeah. >> Did you can you answer some of those when you come back too? >> Uh >> the sidewalk to answer some now if you want. I mean Scott uh Schlut is was
basically weighing on peer review. So I thought >> it was peer review. >> It was peer review should address it. So >> I just assumed it was going to go out to peer review and we'd deal with it there. >> Okay. So you would don't want me to deal with any planning?
>> I'll be happy to answer your questions. >> Um I want you to show in the next plan that you'll bring snow removal. I don't know where that's going. >> Storage. Yeah. >> Yeah. Storage. Definitely. We need to show where the sheds are going to go. Um, I'd like to know more about the
sidewalk to 28. I thought that was really important when the planning board brought that up. And the design, they had an issue with design also. They still look like they're over at the base. >> I'm sorry, I didn't catch what you said. >> The design they the planning board also had an issue with and I said it they're
correct. It does look like it's still on the base. >> Um, those are just a few I had. I'm I'm just I just want you to go through the referrals and when you come back to answer to them and not just I'll try
kind of answer like something you know concrete would be good. That's about all I have for now. Frank, do you have anything? Well, this is just kind of a general question, but the last time you were here on this project where where it was for the rentals, we heard from
people in the neighborhood saying that uh this particular parcel actually accumulates water and uh is there's water pooling on it from time to time. Now, I wonder, we never did get an answer because you didn't go far enough.
>> Yeah, you did. You got an answer to it. >> Well, what is it? We we've had a consultant go out there twice to tell you there's no wetlands on the site. >> That was a wetland answer. It wasn't to do >> talking about water pooling. Of >> course, there's water running onto the site. It's a low point, but we we've got
that all captured in our drainage. >> All right. You'll be able to talk about that in detail when we go into it. >> Yeah. And you guy will tell you whether the drainage works or not, >> right? Okay. >> Uh nothing specific this evening. I I think to looking at the plans and the
multitude of the engineering questions and things like that I again I we got to get the pier to weigh in and then that way we can have some additional guidance but uh got to have something for him to weigh. True true true true
I mean this is almost pointless at the moment so I I'll save my for >> next round. next round. Okay, >> everybody all set up here? How about the public? Do you guys want to come up and ask a few questions? Come
on up. >> Or statements. >> Thanks for being patient with us tonight. >> It's okay. Hi, my name is Walter Bur. I live at 45 Homestead Lane. I am on the other side of zero
on this project. My property abuts this next to this project that he's trying to put in. Uh give you a little bit of background. Coming from east farmouth on uh Ticket Highway
uh Shaw, but that the road goes downhill and to uh my wife and I turn off at uh at first uh Jesus. Okay, that turns we turn off and
take a right and go down Brick Hill Road. Take a left on Homestead Lane. So that land is is uh or the road is pretty flat. There's some up and downs. Now on the other side on this land that he's projecting to put in there,
the ticket highway has a lot of ups and downs. So, as you go down past with lumber, uh hardware, the next thing is there's a great big hill. And as you go up the
hill on the right hand side is the entrance to Broken Bow Lane. Now, the problem is Broken Bow Lane. If you look at the difference between the height or the elevation between Ticket
Highway and Homestead Lane, let me see if I can just kind of illustrate this with my funky cardboard. Okay.
D Ticket Highway, Homestead Lane. So, this land is actually on a slant where this water runs off uh and ends up in this I I'll call it a trough for now. >> Swale. [snorts]
>> Yeah. >> Is what it's called. >> It's pretty much is. Yeah. >> So, the the water coming off the highway is is it's not it just kind of runs down very slow because it all gets absorbed in the soil of trees, leaves, and so
forth. Uh with this project, what I see now is you're going to have all these buildings in here. Uh the water is going to be freely running uh down the hill. There's not going to be anything to stop it. The
black top will let the water run. All of the houses that are going in here, they all have roofs and they have uh uh >> gutters and down. No uh water uh
uh down spouts and every one of them are going to be shedding water adding water to this open water coming down the this property. So now what I'm uh I'm worried about is where is this water? What's going to
happen to this water that's running freely down with nothing to stop it? all these houses with the down spouts running water downhill. It's going to I think it's going to cause the water to run even faster in this drainage.
Uh I don't know what's going to happen. thing that I'm I'm not going to be happy with is this great big building about I would say two 11
feet 24 2 and 1/2 ft tall. Uh I'm going to have to look at this building because it's going to be right in front of my right in back of my property. I did bring some pictures and I hope they work
now with all this water running down and in the summertime you're going to have this great big building that it's going to have this uh water drainage coming down. It's going to be like a water tower
>> and that water is really going to be coming down. U this building, I'm sure, is going to have air conditioning. That air conditioning in the summertime is going to work all of the time,
day and night. Somebody help me. >> Thank you, Nick. Excuse us. >> Afraid to go through. >> Okay. How do I manipulate this thing now? This will fix that.
Okay, that's good. Yeah. >> All right, that's that's great. No, that's not it. [laughter] >> That's a lot of water's hole. That's >> No, that's not mine either. >> That's another nice one. [laughter] >> It's down. Well, it's on that drive.
>> Let me try again. >> Double click on >> Okay, >> double click. There he goes. He's got it. Oh, >> wrong picture. Okay, let me see where these images are. Okay, they're down here in the bottom.
>> Yeah. Okay. Okay. This one down here. Number one down at the bottom where all those nines are. >> Not that one. >> No, it's the first one that got has all the nines on it. >> I think I hit it.
>> Yeah, number one is up here somewhere. No, that's not either. It said it says number one on it. Sorry to take up your time. >> Do you have the pictures? The hard copies. >> I don't have any hard copies. These are all on my >> Just work your way right up the list,
Nick. >> Tell me when you careful. [clears throat] >> It's It's going the wrong way. Is there a big envelope? >> Well, that was close. Oh, well, let's close. Go back to this.
>> Keep going until you look. >> Go back to the driveway. The first one. >> Yeah, this one here. >> Yeah. Okay. Uh, well, my house is it's not quite what I wanted to show you. The front of my house is approximately
30. Let's see. 8 foot times three is 24. That's just to the property line. And then there's another 8 ft to the street. So what I have is the house is approximately 32 feet from the road. Now
coming down the driveway is another uh 30 40 ft because of the house. Now I'm going to show you that that picture. Yes. >> Yeah. I want to go to another picture.
>> Exit. Good. I was the fifth one down. Nick, >> it's not that quite far down. It's pretty close. >> That one. >> I try that one. >> I I can't see the pictures. Okay, that's great. So what you see here now on that slope of 62 feet downhill, my house is
actually 11 ft below Homestead Lane and this property abuts his property. I have one more picture to show. Oh, okay. Hold on. This is the the garage. There's a window which is the
laundry room. And there's a door there which is the entrance to the basement. Uh, we have built a bedroom in here for my son. It's wallto-wall carpeting. And if the water should back up and end up on this property, everything in there is
going to be flooded. Uh, >> just just so you get a picture, the front of his house is out on Homestead. The back of this goes downhill to our property, >> right? >> So, it's not coming up on his >> Okay. Get the next one. [laughter] I appreciate that. Which one you want right here?
>> Just Yeah. Next one down. One more down. >> I like the fifth one. We haven't seen that yet. >> Walter, you better check his consulting fees. >> Okay. Yeah, I know it. [laughter] Okay. All right. >> He's not cheap. >> I know it. [laughter]
>> That's good. That's close enough. So, down here at the close line, uh we're going to look at behind it. It's about three or four yards where his big housing development is going to be the
big two-story building. It's going to be what I'm going to look at now is looking at this building. I won't see any more sun coming in. My house faces uh west and this is on the east side where his
uh big housing project is going to be. That's my shed. There is a big tree there also. And what will happen is taking this tree out. Can we do one more picture? [laughter] I wish I could manipulate his
name, but I can't. >> You got to love teamwork. >> Just went down low. >> That one? >> Yeah, [snorts] >> that's a little closer. Same idea. >> Yeah. >> Go down one more. [laughter] >> Okay, that's good. >> Okay. down at the down at the bottom
there's that tree and my shed is also there. You can see the marker that is ground zero I guess you would call it. Uh if this tree is taken out all this land is going to run into the uh it's
going to go away. My shed is going to end up in this hole so to speak. And of course the roots are just going to be gone too. Uh so anyway, that takes care of all of this property. Uh there is as this goes
up to uh Broken B Lane, there's water running there already and it's coming down from broken broken bro lane and it is ending up in his property right at this time.
So, I don't know what we can do about this. Like I said, with that great big building, uh the in the winter time, the windows are closed. In the summertime, we like to open up the windows and have a cross breeze, but with this big building there,
uh we're going to have problems with the air conditioning. That air conditioning is going to be running day and night. Uh we are not going to be able to open up the back windows. Uh, as a matter of fact, we're we have that property back there with the picnic table. We like to
sit out there in the sun. We're not going to be able to do all that with that. Uh, over shadow of the building and the uh the motors from the air conditioning are going to be running like I say day and night and that's we won't be able to
open the windows over there. So to conclude this this uh whole presentation this building is uh it's going to be constructed on a slope. Uh water runoff watershed property. It is loose. Uh the
land is the soil is very soft because of all the water running down and it just kind of glides down with the rain and the snow and off the T ticket highway. Uh but when you take all of that into consideration and with all of the black
top uh all of the buildings uh [clears throat] with no obstruction this water is just going to run right down and you can see that in any one of the streets. Uh to get an idea on this all going to look
like this. Uh if you go over to uh uh draw block and you'll see that water runoff. It's kind of a it's all bricked in. It's all on a a slant and that's what this is going to look like with all of that water running down in these
buildings. So, I hope I've done my job here and uh I hope you turn this project down because it's really going to be an annoyance to the neighborhood with all of these uh motors running. Uh the other thing that uh I understand that there's
going to be a pump, a water pump at the bottom of the hill to take the water away. >> It's all gravity. >> All gravity pumping. Uh, so where is this water going to go once it starts to collect at the bottom or the basin of this hill?
>> If it collects and it really really rains, we're going to get flooded and we're going to have to pay. >> Three engineers are going to look at that and determine if what they're providing is sufficient to alleviate any of your concerns.
>> I saw and I saw something about a pump being there. >> Those are that's for the sewer. >> Oh, that's for sewer pumps. You've seen them that >> I was going to say if that pump fails, we're going to get flooded. >> All all the water and the runoff has to
be dealt with underground and and uh their engineer, the town engineers, and we're going to have a peer engineer, and they're all going to examine all this stuff and make sure that that you have no concerns. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Um and uh you know, three engineers is
better than one. >> [laughter] >> So, in the winter time when the snow melts, uh, we're not going to have any sun to absorb or dry up this black top. You're not going to have any uh houses.
Um, it's not brick. It's uh I'm lost for words. Cinder block. Now, cinder block is porous. And with all of that water and dampness, it got to do something with those with those blocks
in the blocks. Disintegrate them. Uh disintegrate the the black top. So now what are we going to do? The house is going to be pretty worthless if we get any water on that property and it stays there. That's my other concern. Yes, you
may have all this done with the engineers, but on my side of the the prop of my side of the line, I'm concerned about the water being on my driveways on the black top and back of the house, and I'm concerned about the
uh uh the cinder block that's being >> your foundation. >> Yes. It's all It's all porous. What's going to happen if that's the water stays stays there and uh >> well in in theory there's going to be
less water >> because you you're familiar with over on Broken Bow on the corner how that puddle is already there. >> Yes, >> it's always there. That puddle is going to be eliminated and and they're required to put any water that they produce or any water that falls on their property has to be dealt with
underground. And as I said, there's going to be three engineers that look at it. >> Okay. I hope so. I mean, we we certainly consider you. I mean, we won't forget you or your slideshow. I mean, it's it's all part of our concern. >> All right. Like I say, I'm more worried about the sun being here. I don't want
to be in the shade >> well >> year round. He's more than 10 ft off the property line. So, there's nothing we can do about that. Um, you'll get more sun with the tree gone, though. >> I'd rather deal with the trees than a two and a half story building, right?
and eight uh rooms wide. So, it's going to look like that building on Robins Road, that hotel, by the time they get done building it. And like I say again, with the noise from all of the air conditionings on the roof, they're going
to run day and night in >> Let's wrap it up, please, sir. We'll take the We'll take it all into consideration. >> Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. And keep showing up. >> Oh, I'm going to Yep. >> Anybody else? Come on up.
I agree with him [laughter] 100%. Yeah, because um I moved into my house. I live at 57 Broken Ball Lane. >> So, name and address. >> Name and address. Diana Manning
and I live at 57 Broken Bow Lane. And I can tell you from the time when I first moved in there, uh, how, you know, things have changed so much over the years. Uh, you know, the neighborhood was pretty quiet when I first moved in there
when there was a lot of pasture land be behind my house. And >> then Walter moved in and [laughter] >> Well, anyway, I did to talk about just the water. I was thinking what what can I talk about? What there are so many things, you know,
like the the fact that it's 12 units. Um it it changes the whole u makeup of the neighborhood. It's a quaint little neighborhood. I really don't want 12 units in there. I mean, if you put like uh two houses in there, fine. But 12
units, an apartment building, come on. you know, this is they're already doing that in a couple other places in Felmouth. And I just think on the road that I live on, I want to keep it as it is. We already have um you know, 10 new houses down that have been put in in the
last couple years down the road and um you know, Clippership apartments have been put in a few years ago. So, it's really changed the you know, the whole makeup of our neighborhood. And and talk about noise. Oh my god. you know, the
noise at night from Clippership Apartments. Um, you know, it's I I put in cypress trees. I have a I have a living fence all the way around my yard just so it buffers that noise. So, can
you imagine having uh, you know, an a 12un an additional 12unit apartment building uh put in at Broken B Lane? I think it's I I don't think it's right for the neighborhood. And I don't think it's fair for us. But I do want to talk
about the water. And the water is when I first moved in, you'd get a puddle down there where you know that that corner there. You you you'd get it. Yeah. We you know um but it would go away. You never get
the you know it's no longer a puddle. Now it's like a pond when when you know when it rains. I mean, there's no place. >> What's that? >> On the corner where? >> Yeah, it's terrible. >> Well, that that's on his property, so he's got to deal with it.
>> Yeah. Well, I'm just saying that >> you're looking forward to it. >> What? [laughter] Well, it's just that, you know, where's the water going to go? >> In the ground. >> Yeah. I mean, but I still I still think
I I lost a car there three years ago. Three years ago. I had a >> it'll turn back up when they dig it. >> I had a beautiful car, brand new, and I went through that puddle >> and it, you know, within few a few weeks
all the electronics had died. So, but anyway, I think that I just think it will it will change the whole makeup of the neighborhood and and and not in a positive way. You know, I really want to keep my neighborhood the way it is, a nice quaint neighborhood. We we have the
additional 10 houses down the road now and Clippership Apartments behind us and there's a noise level too. So enough already. You know, we don't need anymore. Put a couple of houses in there. I'm I'm happy with that. But I
don't need an apartment building anyway. That's all [snorts] I have to say. >> Thank you. >> Anybody else? >> Name and address, please. Yeah, my name is Paul Young, Homestead Lane. Couple
means ago, I enlighted you that this property is connected to the ocean. You can have all the engineers you want right now go there. They're going to say it's fine. Have them go there when a hurricane and it floods up. I just want to know you guys going to be liable if
you give them a permit. >> No. because twice Sandy and Bob that place flooded and I've been there since 1960. I used to play in that area, you know, as a kid.
>> Oh, from the storm surge. >> From the storm surge, you know, and everybody say climate change is getting worse. So, [snorts] you know, I'm just letting you enlighten you to what's
going to happen. The applicant's going to fix it all for us, he says. >> Yeah, I know. Put a big wall up. >> I really have to shave. >> Hi. >> Hi. >> Parks, 359 Locust Field Road, [cough]
and I'm [clears throat] representing my daughter who had to work at the hospital tonight. So, I said I would go in her place. And she's a director Butter. She's right there by that pool. They haven't swam in it yet. But >> who is your daughter? >> Lindsay Parks. Yeah, she's right there.
Anyway, two of the concerns she had is number one, there's the police station that's going to be going into that area. How does that affect the traffic and has there been a traffic study on this? >> Yeah. Well, question.
>> I would hope so because I mean there are already 27 houses and you figure two cars, maybe 54 cars, plus there's a safe house at the end there that has probably 10 guys living there. So there's quite a bit of traffic already in that area and
so I'm wondering she wanted to know about that. Then the other thing is if we if she read it correctly, one of the rent or some of the rentals, not the affordable ones, would cost around 700,000 for a two-bedroom condo.
And that just seems exorbitant for the area with the crowdedness and so forth. And what happens if somebody doesn't want to buy them? They don't like that idea. Maybe they would. I don't know enough about the real estate market. Nor does she. But what happens if the $700
$700,000 um condo is not purchased? Can it be turned into a rental? >> Don't know. >> So yeah. Okay. Well, those were thoughts she had and that she asked me to come and express them and particularly the traffic. That's something that's very
concerning because I guess the egress for the police station is supposed to be just a couple of down. >> So it's pretty >> They were there surveying today. >> Oh, where are they? >> Where it's the old entrance to the drive-in. But I think their plan is to use Brick Hill Road. >> Yeah. >> More often, >> right? Okay.
>> Because it's just easier and more convenient. >> Yeah. >> I mean, it is the police. You can pretty much count on them to do the right thing. >> True. >> Traffic wise and whatever. >> True. Okay. Well, >> I think they're the least of our worries. >> Yeah. I just don't want to see a >> And if [clears throat] you have to call
them, they'll be there all the quicker. >> I just don't want to see the traffic become so insurmountable for people not be able to. >> It is already there in the summer. >> Well, yeah, it is. It's your idea. But so anyway, okay. Well, thank you for your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.
>> Anybody else? Come on up. It's develop >> Richard Castlebury number 41 Broken Bow Lane. I'm also concerned about all the
transportation and traffic that's going to be rendered between zero and number 29. That's already a fiasco if anybody's keeping parking in there. And they're running these big old trucks through
there. You got huge holes there that they the trucks have already damaged everything. These people consistently want to park on that next to that 29, the big h house there. I mean, it's ridiculous. And
everybody else, if they park there, everybody else has got to go in those holes. And those holes are ridiculous. This is a a private road. This is not a regular two-lane road. Anybody comes in there and they meet a truck,
they going off the road and they got a little level about three or four inches on each side of that where they go into it. And then each time they do that, they're going to uh make the ruts deeper.
And we get 12 more cars. Could be a lot more than 12. This is total uh 12 units. Two cars per unit. That's 24 that are going to back up trying to get onto the highway out there.
I don't think so. That's not going to work at all. And this is this is in conjunction with the the houses that they were talking about they've built down there. That's most of those are summer people. And when they come in, they have a lot more
than two cars. So, this is becoming a real big problem, the traffic on that. And they drive up and down the road. uh Brown, FedEx, and these rental vehicles, they go down there, they don't care about 15, 20
miles an hour, children or anything. They're wanting to get their time done. And it's ridiculous. The traffic has not been addressed with this whole situation. And I'm really concerned about it myself because I I've sat there and I see those cars going up and down
that road. And you know what a bear it is to get out of the left from Broken Bow Lane with the light traffic. You sometimes have 20 cars going through there. So you can imagine if you get more another 12
cars or 24 cars up there, you're going to be sitting there forever trying to get out. A lot of these people that are working too, they have to be where they're supposed to be at a certain time. >> Well, they better take right hand turns or they're not going to get there. But
you Yeah. Who wants to go right every time they'll come out of there though? You know how long it takes to get there to for example to go over to St. Anony's? >> Long time. >> Can't get there from here. >> I think you're trying to >> you have to go right if you don't go left. Right. >> It's just a
>> So that's one my main concern. [clears throat] It's >> okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Anybody else like to speak on this project? John Butler from Homestead Lane. Also, um I'm trying to understand what was
said earlier. There's going to be a sewer line put in by the town. Has it already been approved or funded for? >> It's what? >> It's on its way. It's for all T ticket bath. >> Okay. And where where is that going to be going? >> Uh >> 28 or >> down the highway.
>> Yeah, down the highway. >> Yeah, >> down the highway. Yeah, it's the next phase of the sewer. >> Okay. >> It's going to do Perch Pond. Okay. >> Basically, and then around Ticket Bath and that area cuz you know how bad it is there. >> Well, I live there. >> I do. >> Um, smells good this summer, doesn't it?
[laughter] >> Uh, now I can get back in line here. Um, they were talking short time ago about closing the school in Ticket. These apartment, these buildings, these buil are going to be threebedroom or
twobedroom. >> Three. All threes. >> Threebedroom. That means there's going to be more children in that area. Yep. >> The population density in that area is unbelievable. >> They're going to put the police station there. And they're also going to put more apartments across the street on Brick Hill from where the police station
entrance will probably be. Um, and the the lights, there's 8 bazillion accidents at those lights all the time. Is this is this an HOA type situation?
>> Condo >> condo association. Is that >> Yes, >> it is. Okay. So, they're going to be responsible for their own entity. >> I hope so.
>> Um, is this HOA part of the ownership of that whole stretch of new new homes and stuff? Because it looks like they're ready to break through the the back end of Broken Bow onto uh Brick Hill Road. I drove down there the other day. I mean,
it's cleared out like there's going to be something else going at the other end of Broken Bow. Not that I know of. >> Not that we're aware of Homestead was was a one-way street originally, right? They broke through to Brick Kill >> and now Homestead is the expressway in
town, >> but it is. >> I haven't heard anything about anything going down there. No, don't know. >> Have you heard anything? >> No, but um Broken Bow is a public
rideway and not private. So, >> it's not serviced by the city. >> Engineers said private. >> Engineers said private. >> Engineers said private. >> Interesting. >> Our map showed it as public. >> They wrote I wrote private. Says it right in engineering. >> I don't definitely need an answer on
that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The town map shows it as public >> and the engineering referral says private. Yeah. >> He said no snowplow or public trash. >> No, he says that no matter what. >> Well, yeah. Well, if it's public, that puts a burden on the drainage on someone else. >> Yes.
>> Yeah. >> The area that's um >> closest to the highway >> where the the the highway comes down into that area where that road is, there was a large depression there that has always been full of water. >> Always full. Yeah. >> Always full.
>> Yep. >> Doesn't even have to rain. >> It's already there. And it used to be a dump basically for a lot of the uh buildings around there. >> Yeah, I'm concerned about the traffic myself actually.
>> I am. >> I'll leave it with that. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, sir. >> Anybody else? Do you guys have any further? >> Somebody else. >> Good evening, attorney. >> Hello. Good evening. How are you, madam
chair? For the record, Brian Tobin, 116 Broken Bow Lane. Uh, you'll have to forgive me because I did not see any packet materials available online for this submission. Were they or were they not? Is that okay if I ask that question?
>> Okay. I didn't see them. So, I'm going to ask some things of this board if they were in the packet, which I haven't looked at yet. Kindly disregard it. If they weren't, though, I'd like this board to ask the applicant to put them in the packet. Uh the first is a title search of that area including up and
down Broken Bow Lane. The reason is because that area is structured where there are this is my understanding and a and a title search could help to uncover it. But there are a number of what are called like spite strips in the neighborhood which may or may not block access to this locust and I'd like this
board to ferret that out. The second is a noise study. All right. Cutting down trees will impact the neighborhood. All right. It will impact noise. The trees in that lot and on that lot block the sound from route 28 which you can already at least partially hear approximately 200 linear feet up the
road. So it's going to impact the butters. The third is a light study, a photo uh phototric analysis. I'd like that thoroughly vetted by the engineers and I'd like to see the impact of the light. The reason is because the sun does rise and set over that area and the
trees uh do provide shade. Next, I'd like to reiterate the comments that drainage is a real problem in that area. Uh I'm not sure if this computer works, but if it does, I'd love to pull up the GIS of the area. Is that >> all right? >> Yeah.
>> Are these the proposed plans? >> Brian, do you know if it's private or public? >> Broken B uh lane is a private way. >> Yeah. [clears throat] So this is this the curb cut? Are they curb cutting on 28 or are they curb cutting on broken bow? >> It's around where the fire hydrant is
>> and on is on the right side of the curb cut. Right near the puddle basically >> is that that's up here. This is where they want to do the curb cut. >> Yes. >> Yeah, you can. >> Okay. I'm sorry. Is it shown on this plan and I'm not seeing it? >> No, it'll be on another one. But it's right where you got the cursor. >> Okay. >> Yeah, it's right there.
>> Yeah. And and this isn't a puddle. It is a pond. And that's not an exaggeration where she said it. Okay. the catch basin over here, >> right? This is right in front of somebody's property. >> It's the size of it's smaller than a soccer ball, right? And it gets clogged
and a light rainstorm creates a a significant puddle here. A heavy rainstorm does create a pond. I'm talking one and a half feet to two feet. >> Last Yeah. Okay. Last time they applied, we we saw real pictures of the puddle and and Lindsay brought some in as well
and and we all have been there. We've seen it for >> Yeah. And they're already part of the record. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, >> you guys did you guys did a site visit then? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. >> I was afraid to drive through it. I would thought it was going to bottom out like she did. >> Yeah. No, you you actually worry about
>> the mechanics of your car when you have to go through there and and if it happens on a weekday >> you and you have no choice because you have to go to work. You know, it's like one thing on a Saturday and you can cancel your plans, but you know, you have to plow through it and you know, >> you feel like you're in a boat. So, um
the other thing to keep in mind, this is why I want to help GIS, but I'm not seeing how to close this out. You'll have to forgive me. >> There's the road for you right there. See it? You mean this or was the entrance where the puddle is? >> Go back. >> Right. Right.
>> Oh, this is where they want to drive back. That's >> the road. Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. >> They're going to move the fire hydrant to the left side and uh it's b because it's basically right on the uh curb or right on the cut. >> All right. And and I I uh you'll have to forgive me. I was uh uh at another
meeting this evening, so I had to listen online while I was driving over here. But I just wanted to confirm as well to contextualize my comments that the applicant is presently proceeding as if the town is under safe harbor. >> Yes. >> Is that that's accurate? Okay. >> Yes. >> Um >> so then I will I will make that uh I
will second a comment that was made this evening regarding the characteristics of this neighborhood. It is all single family homes. I believe it's approximately 20 plus single family homes. They're all on a quarter of an acre uh of a lot uh up and down the way. And that's one of the things that I
wanted to show you and talk about it. >> All right. So, here's Homestead and this is Broken Bow. And you can see these are most of the homes along Broken Bow. And the average size of these lots is just under a quarter of an acre. Now, this is an
agriculturally zoned area, right? And little rusty here, but if memory serves correct, it's 1 acres, but it may even be two. >> I think it's 1.6 >> 1.6. >> Okay. >> And I think it said it was about >> 80,000 square feet. >> Yeah. >> I think it was 80 agricultural and 20 GR
I think. >> Yeah. >> Ballpack. So there are there are um wait sorry what was that? Can you repeat that? >> 80% agricultural 20 GR >> for that particular lot. >> Oh that's interesting it own lot. >> Yeah it is. >> Okay. Yeah.
>> So um the the reason why these quarteracre lots survive survive zoning is there was a checkerboard patterned structure set up in this neighborhood. [cough] Okay. So there were two trusts that own
every other lot which is what you know uh uh allowed them to be built upon. You know I won't get into too much the technicalities of whether or not that was uh legit out would be under the new affordable homes act but whether or not it was legit at the time that they were
built. But the point is is the developer that owns the building rights in this neighborhood already got four acts out of the neighborhood. That's four times what he should have gotten on. All right. If you had one, if you assume oneacre zoning, right? He's getting four
houses. So now on 1.6 acres, he wants to put how many units? >> 12. >> 12 >> 12 >> nine an acre. >> Yeah. So that that's tenth of an acre lots. >> All right. That's uh that's Felmouth Heights, right? That's not north of 28.
That's not in agricultural zoning. And to that effect, a much more suitable project for the town could be put in this location that addresses the needs of affordable housing and even addresses the needs of workforce housing. Right? CPC money can be obtained to put in
single family homes here that provide units at 80 to 160% of the AMI for working families, police officers, members of the fire department, teachers, the backbone of the community
on Cape Cod that works every day and can't afford to purchase a home. They could have access to single family units and attain the fleeting American dream if you encourage the developer to put in a different type of project here that
fits the characteristics of the neighborhood. >> That's it. >> Hey, may I ask a question? >> Yep. >> Madam chair. >> Yeah, go ahead. >> What is CPC money? >> Community preservation committee. >> Okay. >> So they can >> top part restrictions
>> charge on our tax. I I know I pay that. I just had forgotten when it was. >> I put my thumb over it so I don't have to look at >> Right on your taxes. That's right. >> Uh what So what type of housing are you talking about that would that you would want to see replace this type of housing? So what I'm saying is if you're
going to objectively look at right local needs versus the need for affordable housing, you know, whether we're in the context of of safe harbor or not, we'll say it's within the context of safe harbor because the applicant is putting forth uh that assumption for the purpose
of this application, right? and you still wanted to help make an impact in the affordable housing world, you could do it in such a way that's both profitable to the developer and beneficial to the neighborhood or
less, I should say, less detrimental on the neighborhood. Because if he did quarter acre lots on a 1.6 acre lot, that's six units. And if you were able to obtain funding from the CPC, the purchase deed restrictions, you could have six
attainable units, right outside of the 80% of the AMI for working families. >> Right now, we're getting three affordable units. >> Yeah. Versus six attainable. We could even do three and three as single family homes and it would match the
neighborhood. >> Thank you. Thank you. Anybody else want to speak tonight? >> Do you guys have anything further? >> No. No. >> Um, we're continuing this question.
>> Sure. Come on up and ask, please. >> About this meeting. Discuss about this meeting. I'd like to know when the next one is so I can be better prepared. >> I was just about to tell you. >> Okay. I'm sorry. >> Um, it's going to be March 12th. I'll give you a heads up. >> Um, anybody want to make a motion?
>> Madam Chairman, >> I was just going to say, uh, we should check with the applicant. >> Um, typically part of this extension period is if they choose to file an appeal based on our assertion of safe
harbor. Um, but if they intend on continuing to pursue the application, do they want to agree to peer engineering, which we could potentially >> arrange first? >> Yeah, if there was
>> get the ball rolling anyway. Yeah. >> You want to come up and answer that one, Nick, please? >> You asked a question again, Norin. So, what we're asking is um if you want to proceed with the application where the
town is asserting we're in safe harbor um we would arrange for a peer engineer. If you were looking to appeal this, we would probably wait and arrange a peer engineer later because obviously it
requires funding by the applicant. >> Either way, you're going to have to pay >> [laughter] >> Yeah, I I guess it is appropriate for me to ask where when your hearing is on the safe harbor. >> So you it would be you would have to file.
>> No, >> I mean on your other hearings on the two other repeals to >> I don't have any timeline. >> Yeah, we have no idea. >> After that there's going to be an appeal and if not there's going to be another appeal. So >> I mean >> if you agree to the U peer engineer now
we can make this thing faster that's all and then we can have the stuff in front of us as [snorts] opposed to in the past we've had uh delays where the submissions were two days beforehand we didn't get chance to review it.
>> And could one more thing couldn't the if we lost the safe harbor appeal couldn't the town go to superior court and appeal that? Yes, there are go on a long time. >> Be a long time till we get su. So
>> So I I guess I don't have an answer tonight as to whether or not we're going to appeal. We'll have to see. And uh >> All right. So we'll just wait. >> Continue it. >> So then are we going to get >> stuck for time again? Wait for the >> suspended. It's suspended.
>> So time ends, stops. The clock stops, right? Right. >> If there's an appeal, >> uh, if he >> if he appeals, correct? >> If he doesn't appeal in 180 days, >> tick. >> Ah, >> right. Right.
>> Right. >> So, you're it's up to you for timing. >> I I say just continue the hearing for another couple months and I'll decide within the next week or so. what we're going to do as far as appeal goes or not and I'll let Naren know and if we're not
going to appeal it can assign a peer review to it and that should give us plenty of time between now and >> the next meeting >> late March or April. >> Yeah, that's what we have. >> I I just suggest you get back to her as soon as possible because it's going to be a lot of work for the to
work for everyone. I especially uh at times like this I understand. Yeah, >> I'll get back as soon as I can. >> Okay. >> Well, can we put this on for a status review? say we know what's going on. >> Yeah, we could do that. >> That's a good idea. >> Is that all right with you? >> Put it for a status
>> just if we've heard anything. >> I can update you at a scheduled hearing. >> Yeah. Under zoning administrative certain. Right. >> So the March 12th, is that okay? >> Sure. >> Okay. >> Well, just I always say yes and then
something else that happened last week actually. No, that's fine. Yes. >> Did I have a motion already? >> I'll make a motion to March 12th. >> Second. >> We have a motion by Scott, second by Frank to continue to March 12th.
Everyone's all set up here. All those in favor? I oppose. None. So, March 12th, 6 o'clock. >> Thank you. >> Thanks all for coming. >> All right. Minutes. Uh December 11 and the 18th are ready
for vote. >> Good job. >> I'll make a motion to accept December. Is everyone all set with the minutes, you guys? I'll make a motion to accept December 11 and December 18th of 2025. >> Second. >> I have a motion by Suzanne. Second by
Jim. >> All those in favor? I oppose? None. >> We did two board discussion. Everybody's all set. Uh, zoning administrative updates. >> So, we have uh two recent administrative
approvals. >> Just one second, Nor. We can't hear very well. Thanks. >> Let Ruth go home. >> Can you guys go out >> and talk outside? [laughter] Can you talk out in the hall? >> That guy go. He was struggling.
>> It was continued. >> Sorry, I just couldn't hear you. Well, >> administrative approvals. Um 76 men, we approved a platform for battery storage for solar panels. That seems to be the next big thing moving through town.
um these battery powers battery storage for the solar panels will effectively be taking the place of a generator that somebody would have. So the idea is that you're collecting the power from your solar panel. >> We we can't have the door closed in an open meeting.
>> Oh shoot. >> Sorry to interrupt apologies. >> No, you stay there. >> I didn't I was looking [laughter] at the dates. >> Yeah, man. >> Thanks, Richard. >> Thank you, Richard. >> Thank you, Richard. >> Thank you. you don't have to catch. [laughter]
>> Okay. So, uh we approved a platform for their uh battery storage for 76 men and then for 24 Elizabeth Gan. Uh the board issued a special permit for additions and attached garage. Uh they came in for
administrative approval for a small infill deck area that would uh run flush with the front facade of the house. Dorine is 76 but not a single family dwelling. >> Why do they need battery storage? >> So they have they have solar panels on
>> there. Whoa. Whoa. For the whole >> So what will happen is the solar panels will effectively fill the battery and then they will use the battery for power. >> Okay. That's where they keep their Christmas light batteries. >> Yeah. Norine, do do they have to have the fire department review that because
these lithium batteries are so difficult to put out or where they're positioned or >> I don't know. I you know they're stored outside so you know >> the electrical inspector I'm sure would help the gas feed to the house.
>> They'll all be inspected. >> Okay. >> And then um we are now live with permitiz so people are able to file with us electronically. We still do require and request paper copies for the board
members use. Um, we're brand new with it being live, so I don't have much to report on that yet, >> but we're hoping that it will work out well. And we are also getting a window at cut
into the hall in front of the zoning board office and they will be installing a kiosk for the public to use to file elect uh file their applications electronically. >> God bless you.
>> So changes are underfoot. >> Good luck with all that to the pair of you. Good luck. Anyway, so what else? You're you're good. So future agenda items. >> Anybody have anything? >> January 29th.
>> Our next meeting will be in J will it be at 5:30 at the next meeting? >> Yes. Yes. >> So I do say that our next meeting will be at on June on January 29th. Uh executive session at 5:30, regular hearings at 6. >> Motion to adjurnn.
>> I'm second. >> All those in favor? All right. Those in favor. I >> pass with that hammer. >> We had Mark and Jim on.