##VIDEO ID:Ma1NP4jnpmQ## all right call to order the planning board of Flemington for Tuesday January 28 2025 this in person virtual meeting is called Assurance the provisions of the open public meeting act both adequate and electronic notice of this inp person the virtual meeting has been provided by way of publication in the hunteran county Democrat and Korean news newspapers on about January 23rd 2025 and January 19th 25 in addition notice of the meeting was posted on the door of the M flon Municipal Building located at 38 Park Avenue and any handicapped accessible entrances there to posted on the municipal website provided to the municipal club and distributed to all persons of any requesting top of the same this meeting is being recorded with both audio and video and may be rebroadcast this meeting is a Judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to the issues that are relevant throughout the board memb consider in reach a decision and decorum appropriate to judicial hearing must be maintained at all times please rise as you able all right take the V please council person fararo here here G here Mr Hill here wh here Mr Sino is excused M swingle here here here Mr here e here here M kazinski here clo here Manis here here thank you item one on our agenda as always is time for public comments this is specifically for things discuss why this is but items not currently on the agenda so any comments to planning board not currently on the on the agenda anybody in the room have a comment you have anybody online with a raised hand ear no okay seeing n we'll move on to item two May comments please so um thank you last night at the council uh meeting um we presented uh from the parking committee uh J Troutman our traffic engineer our chief police presented um the restructuring of traffic around the union Hotel Site in anticipation um that the hotel will be charging for parking for all apartments as well well as for overnight parking in the hotel which was information Jay got uh from the developer in um I believe March of 20124 For the First Time acknowledging that they were going to be charging for parking so in anticipation of people wanting to park on this the residential streets as well as um the promise that was made to the residents of this town that traffic was going to be kept as much as possible on Main Street um the uh two issues were presented last night to the council to the public uh one being rerouting traffic so that Spring Street heading north I'm sorry heading south so from Bluefield Avenue to William Street would be changed to One Way only from Bloomfield to Maple Avenue so um people coming into the hotel would have to come down Bloomfield and take a right because corer is um eastbound only and maple is westbound only um secondly Maple Avenue from Broad Street heading west uh to Spring would be changed to One Way only to ready one way west from uh spring to Maine so anybody leaving the hotel uh or the apartments would have to get to Maple Avenue and make a decision to take a right up to Main Street if they're most likely heading through 31 um south or continue down Williams and take a left and on to Broad and then a right to go after to 202 um Maple I'm sorry Spring Street at uh Maple will be weight restricted um so that big trucks do not go onto uh Spring Street unless they're for local deliveries only and Bloomfield Avenue also will be weight restricted at Spring Street also restricting it to local deliveries only so that trucks making deliveries to the hotel the restaurants or the apartments um would have to go down Spring Street and exit that way as well uh up to main um on April so there will be four ordinances as of right now introduced at the February 10th uh council meeting two one we only on Spring and Mall two weight restrictions uh on Spring and Bloomfield and the chief is also looking at where all the loading and unloading docks are supposed to be around the hotel area um so we we had our last Parky meeting um um planning board member and parking Committee Member dasna mentioned that this was a configuration that was being considered back when the site plan was here at the planning board but it was never um enacted so we are moving forward on that and the other thing that was presented was the idea of residential only overnight parking across the entire buau uh the large apartment complexes any apartment complexes that have parking lots would be exempt from getting residential or visitor street parking um which will also prevent people from the hotel project SE looking for free parking uh around the streets especially spring and Broad which is already you know totally clogged um uh traffic engineer trapman reminded the council that this is a very walkable town and an impact of you know 205 apartments and 100 hotel rooms people will be parking you know wherever in order to um uh to walk to the hotel to get some the parking if possible so there's also some problems from from the apartment complexes that we're having on the other side of town right now where they're clogging up residential neighborhoods um too many cars in some of these complexes between point so um we'll be looking to possibly introduce it ordinance on that as well at either the first or second meeting in February to provy the software necessary to manage um the tagging for this so okay thank you um item three Council comments please I have no comments this week I was attended the council meeting yest most thank you right thanks um item four HPC comments Denis do you have anything for us so we had a meeting on the 15th and we approved the fence at 38 East Main Street Eileen sent that out to the planning board members on January 17th that was it for me okay thank you um I can five professional reports um we have any I don't the only thing I can say is I reached out to Catalyst again um hadn't heard anything the last way I left it with them was when they were ready to come and present or ask questions of the board they would come back but that was think November May um did not hear back yet but public and are newer members who catalyst is I'm sorry yes that would be the sign on the circle the wall yes F yeah I wasn't sure how to phrase that if they're coming back they could probably submit this Hospital oh yeah yeah and and at that point in time I mean we I don't want to have too much of a discussion about it I just want to give an update that I'm poking the bear just to find out what's going on um but um we'd have to see what they're proposing I mean is it amendation no absolutely it's getting low I just that's what I just wanted we still have something all right that's great right well there existing approval still stands as such unless they if they want to change something they need to come to yes you know to the extent they complied with what they have to also so again that's additional discussion I just wanted to let you know just we'll get in be a little bit and thank you see what's happen um the only professional report I would give is uh actually just want to highlight one other thing from the council meeting last night the council also adopted a resolution declaring their participation in the fourth round affordable housing process and as part of that they also declared their affordable housing obligation and uh what this town did was they uh approved or cited the numbers calculated by DCA for the borrow since it seems that they were done which was not the case in all municipalities but in this town it didn't there seem to be no reason to to deviate essentially um so now that that's been done we have to actually wait for the obligations to be approved by the program that's going to oversee this but I think more importantly from the planning board's perspective this really kicks off the uh the time for us to actually begin crafting the housing plan which has to be adopted by this board and endorsed by the council by June 30th right so um I'm gonna begin to uh reach out to folks about that process I do expect your plan to not be that difficult just as it heads up just because we have a handful of projects that already have been approved with affordable housing that we're going to be able to use to meet part of that obligation and is that something that we can do through you crafting it and bringing it to the whole board we don't really need a subcommittee for that we it's going to be more simple i' prefer it to be the whole board if we can just have everybody look I have a feeling that your uh that your plan is going to be simple enough that that makes good sense so what I would so given that preference what I would propose to do is put together a really preliminary outline of how your plan could be satisfied and uh have a discussion with the board and then we can sort of go from there yeah I it's a good idea and then if that discussion suggest that it's more complicated we can choose to form a committee of okay great just a quick question could you remind us what Our obligation is under fourth round sure so there are two uh two types of affordable housing obligations um one is the rehabilitation obligation and this is the an estimate based on Census Data of substandard units in the burrow that are also occupied by low and Moder income households that number is 78 um and as I said that's all based on Census Data not somebody that is driven to the burrow for better work um 74 I'm sorry 74 sorry um the second component of the obligation is is referred to as new construction obligation because they're typically satisfied through actual construction of new units that number is 25 and that represents the fourth round obligation from the years 2025 through 2035 and there are rounds one two and three unit uh three obligations as well those have actually been satisfied already so um so those numbers exist they'll be addressed in our housing plan but in terms of focus it's the 25 for the fourth round and the 74 for rehabilitation that's an additional 25 from 2025 to 203 yes it's an add 10 years 2500 correct that's a stupid question even though that 74 is a rehab obligation can you satisfy it by way of new construction you can yeah yeah and there are also ways to uh to adjust that number is something I think that we should talk about when the time comes but you can do what's called a windshield survey where somebody would drive through town and go and site the conditions and if if the result of that process is less than 74 we can actually adjust it downward so or we can use new construction there a variety of ways okay I'm just curious and does that include projects that have to be U new built approved from this day forward or is it if they're already approved they weren't built as of 2024 they count to the obligation oh yeah definitely so so for example we just um the board approved Livery Village for example and that's going to include affordable housing that's certainly going need to meet part of your 25 so that's not so that's not in it Cardinal is not in it Catalyst isn't in it the Union hotel is in it yeah Union hotel Factory the original what about the one was approved no so the second either spice Factory building one or building two I don't believe so we're going be able to use those towards our 25 like you said you know I have a lot of towns that are going to have a very significant challenge in front of them I think that lington uh not that it won't be any challenge but your challenge is much smaller compared to what I suspect most other municipalities in the county are faced thank you anybody have any other questions to back that okay great all right um no report okay and um let Jay not to not attend today online oh he's onl I thought he asked not to he asked to be online I'm sorry I missed that yeah I don't have any report Karen thank you okay sorry thank you um okay then let's move on to um item six approval of the minutes from the January 14th um 2025 re Meeting those were distributed there was one uh revision that Mr show uh found um in the dates um had July 24th it should been 22nd so that's been revised Le okay anybody else catch anything they want to let okay then can I get a motion to approve the minutes please I make that motion second thank you the Mr Hill yes M Whitman yes mayor Carol yes council person pisaro yes Mr Campion yes Miss giin yes Miss wingle yes and Mr show yes thank you thank you all right item seven the resolution for HBC Liberty Village urban renewal LLC I've seen a lot of things going on today with this so where can you update us where we're at with this yes so we have the draft we have everyone's preliminary meaning the applicant uh their professionals our professionals um it's also been distri to the board um and we're we have most of the comments Incorporated but we have a couple that are still outstanding that I think may require some more discussion Bob had some questions and instead of going back and forth on emails I think it's better for me to incorporate everything that I can and then recirculate for everyone's you know quote unquote final review um the board should feel free to do that as well send me over any comments um the conditions are obviously the most important you want to make sure that they make sense that everything everything is there um but obviously anything even little typos so welcome to you know entertain and any notes any of the board made make sure that what's in the resolution matches your notes and it doesn't just contact Cara y um that then means that we're not really ready to can't I would rather have it perfect just so that people know that document those documents are usually a few pages long this one's 24 25 pages long so there's lot to it and we want to make sure we get that right um and get it correct so that that will is then the document that will be used to make we we compare to when construction begins so we want it to be correct we want it to be right for everybody yeah there was a lot of complicated testimony and discussions and resolutions and as Bob pointed out too there were a lot of changes and a lot of things that maybe we didn't have exactly the way we would usually like to see them so we want to make sure that you know all of that is spelled out and I want to make sure he's comfortable and everybody else is comfortable exactly some things weren't captured on the drawings as yet and so we're capturing it in resolution so to make sure that we get that exactly right we want to make sure that so that will now be so I'll work on that revision um depending on what time you got here tonight maybe either tonight if not tomorrow and get it around because what I'd like to do is you know to get it back out to every well definitely for the next meeting but to even get it out to everyone as quickly as possible so in its you know quote unquote final form at least amongst all the last right with a view to bring back for the next meeting for um for vote so that will be tabled for the next meeting as I thank you for everyone for I comments but did put comments in today I know there was a lot of B and thoughts going on we'll get that right all right then let's move on to item eight for tonight is public hearing for the hunon county democratic 2408 um this is continued from October 22nd we actually had testimony was it the October date I can't no November 26th we actually had testimony and then December 17th and January 14 continued from that yes baby a trial and a shoulder surgery going on right my colleague Scott s his baby little girl um her name is Emma if you put it Simon no Ella name name is Ella s Ella so that's why you can't wi Tom your last time he's has should Rec that he's fine IED it to be clear we knew we had some testimony I don't know how you want to play this we want to go over that what what's the best way we summarize what we've done before or just start fresh we do have magaletta n e l TTA on behalf of the applicant hun County Democratic commit okay we're here for this feel of the denial of a zoning that's yeah sorry so no F glad you did that thank um so as the chair indicated this has been carried a couple times and we do have some new differing members on the board so for that purpose I'll at least say oh and just let the record reflect um that uh November 26th meeting um we did have uh Mr Hill Mr Cy and Mr s were not present I wanted to ask uh Mr Hill and Mr Campion if they had a chance to review the the recording of that meeting actually no Mike did you get a chance to to watch the November 26th yes I did thank you You' be eligible to that okay so that leaves us with just so I can make the record clear we got so Jeff you would be eligible y yeah okay uh mayor you would be eligible Marin Jen no meliss no no I missed a few wasn't the 26 but I think there wasn't anything on the 14th right no there wasn't right December 17th there was only one hearing it was just on the 26 26 okay so don as well okay all right so I just really for the applicant edification so you could you know see how many people you would have eligible because the new members I don't think there's anyone that's listened to the tape shipment 26 okay so I guess you've got two people three people here tonight that wouldn't be eligible right but you would have one two three four five six not got yeah no we definit have the it's it's just a we have actually eight we do who's the eight side joh yeah okay but mayor Campion miss Karen Hannah Melissa Dennis Jeff and three four five six seven yeah I'm missing someone I'm sorry you do that one more time for me mayor y my Campion no we don't yes we do have my y I'm good okay all right so um to the extent that two three four five six seven eight you would wanted to wait for an additional ninth member um you would obviously have the ability to do that but for anyone um here that doesn't remember the applic applicant is here tonight requesting an appeal of the zoning officer's determination um the zoning officer found that the proposed use uh was not permitted in the zon um and the applicants here tonight to uh indicate to the board um what error it believes that the zoning officer committed in making that determination and to request that the board overturn um that decision of the zoning marks thank you very much out that way right so in the last so last time we had two witnesses appear we're not put any more witnesses on I think right now it's a legal argument the reason was carried because there was some information that the board wanted with respect to the hunding County Republican committee and their when they were in place at their location when they moved I have um elect reports okay so we're gonna Mark that not submitted no they're not it's A6 it is A6 correct they're all the same yes they are front and back thank you those are elect reports committee from um April and July of 2000 showing that the original location for the Republican committee was at 129 Main Street which is in the DB Zone which is where our proposed site is as opposed to when it's now current that the Republican committee is now in the um Highway retail District do you have any additional copies [Music] sorry discuss request here is open request and the response seven copies I have um just for the board's edification oh you don't now the open reest to it was a request to the your secretary for copies of all zoning permit tency change of ownership tency and change of ownership permit request for the year 2024 whether whether they were denied or approved that's that's the listing of all so these this one provided ahead of time stop which means that our member online can't see these I that no no I appreciate that I realize that but on the drive here like again I should have been done before but I just got this so that's my excuse ahead of7 I just record clear so A7 is I'm not it's coming down forest7 is going to be the receipts what is A7 again sorry in in the discussion said is request that office submitted to the Bor of Flemington requesting copy I'll read it so it's no confusion seeking copies of all change ATT tendency ownership applications submitted to the zoning officer since January 1st 2024 whe they were accepted denied withdrawn or any other result so any any applications in 2024 what we saw K we can't consider other other other I don't know why they're being submitted let's let him explain to the board what these mean what we're looking at why you think these help look at them right now I'm no you you you can I just don't know why explain that right so just to just to refocus what happened last time there was opportunity maybe for the board to make a decision but you wanted additional information I think at then it was it was pretty much accepted that what's left now is the legal argument that's where we're at now that's so I'm here for that purpose um and the do I provide to you so request it also will will supplement my M that okay okay we'll supplement what I'm what I'm going to discuss as you may recall there were two points why we thought that the denial should be overed overc one is that we think it's we think our use is a permitted use number one and number two there is already in part steming from that you have the hunington County Republican committee which is the same use in the burrow it's permitted and somehow we're not permitted so we try to understand the distinction and as we look through and I'll start with with the reason that we say that we are permitted so this proposed use is in the downtown business district and that is D in your your code chapter 16 section 2620 the purpose at subsection A is for mixed uses in the traditional business and governmental Center of the burrow and is a transitional area between the downtown business Zone and the V Village Artisan shopping Zone and then subsection B has the permitted principal uses now if you look at this the first use that is permitted is apartments on second and upper floors of principal structures so your code contemplates that there'll be residential above the commercial on the first floor and then we prend that our use is consistent with a number 26 six which is public relations and similar Services towards that end we had the owner of the property Mr banish come and testify that the uses that my client will be operating at the site are similar to what already there this property is already this first floor is already a commercial use it's a it's office building sorry it's office space it's been used for office space for at least 16 years um I think uh the mayor actually in the meeting September 10th uh there was there was an application here and the mayor pointed out that at Hawk house which is what this location is at 111 Main Street that has been commercial use at that space for at least 16 years and I know that there was a there is an effort maybe to have consistent with the master plan to um maybe remove commercial spaces from the first floor unless their grandfather now specifically uh honor mentioned that the space has been there has been commercial forever not forever but for a long time and since it it should therefore be grand prob in we submit to you that it is commercial space what my client is going to do at the space is a commercial space is a commercial use Excuse me and to further show how that the code really supports this use if you look at number 41 of the of that of that section 2620 p number 41 says any combination of one or more permitted conditional or accessory uses so the point is anytime you can find any use in subsection B whether you Cobble it from a different SE different portions you should be permitted because the idea is you want to have this commercial use at this ground floor level at this in this area because that serves the purpose of bringing traditional business and governmental Center in the burough um by the way the Jo permit that we're seeking to u a reverse is zp d24 0108 just for the right um I'm sorry can you say that again sure zp d24 d0108 sorry what was that number 0 one I'm saying z z z okay I'm right I'm sorry I'm just I'm a little confused what we're doing dated 816 2024 that helped okay you get yeah I got one thank you so the uses that we're is consistent with advertising and public relations therefore we think that is a permitted use um again it's consistent with the use that's currently on the site um and as Mr B testified there's sufficient parking there for the uses we're going to have two employees there we have some meetings but nothing nothing hyper intensive that's going to interfere with the commercial use in the area um and what's also telling is that my client operated at 155 Main Street just up two and a half blocks up and there was never any problem there's never any suggestion that they violate any kind of code as far as the usage but all they done now is move down the street and and so therefore there's no reason why all of a sudden now this is improper use not permitted use um make sure my not and I gets to the second point the main point that the Hun County Republican committee also operates in the burrow now they're a different District at the same time if you look at the the permitted uses in that Highway retail Zone District C and the downtown business district they're the same definitions and there can be no reason why that same use is permitted in one District but not in the same definition and yet it's not permitted in the other District when it's the same exact definition um I say this not to be antagonistic but I do say that if the board were to uphold this denial I think it would be that that decision would be subject to a legal challenge for constitutional reasons first first amendment because there's really no reason maybe political this a political decision um right now you have you have a code that allows political signage and to deny this would would be the First Amendment violation I think also you have two Sly situated entities one is being treated differently than the other so you have equal protection argument as well a violations excuse me so I think for those two reasons there those those violations are I think are something you have to think about um now with respect to the hson H County public committee they used to be as a as this paper show on on 129 Main Street in The District in the in the downtown business district till they moved up to Route 12 now this tency change form was not required until about a year and a half ago so we don't know on what basis uh what SIC code or what section of what provision of the of your your code um that usage is allowed but we do know that they they've never been CED a violation we've never given a s of violation for operating um so it seems to me that we should be treated the same as the other entity in the town um that's effectively it we've I think we've demonstrated it's a permitted use it's a commercial it's a commercial space right now the use that we're contemplating is consistent with the usage there now um it's permitted under your code and I think that and respectfully we request that the denial of The Zing permit be overturned okay is that that's your sum you don't have any other Witnesses you want to call witnesses that's correct okay okay then ask coule questions ABS that's what coming to our professionals to question you so I hear you saying the the very similar organization the the Republican committee uh having received zoning permit approval uh so that they can operate on Main Street in the past and in the H HC District as well do you know when those uh when those permits or Tendencies began and can you verify what I know I know you don't have the zoning permanent but how do but the argument is that the uses I think if I understand you correctly that many of the uses between these districts are are the same and so if they're the same in the HC district and they got an approval why is it different now in the DB District but can you verify when those Tendencies began and what the ordinances were at at those times because I I don't know I just don't know I was looking at the pro code for example and the earliest dat cited for the HC District in terms of their ordinance numb is 2012 I don't know that that's the I don't I actually don't believe that's the year the district began that it was newly created but I don't but I guess I I can't necessarily confirm that it's an apple sta comparison essentially if we don't know what the ordinance stated then if those same sic codes were ring upon so there was last time there was a I think except 8-5 which was a chart comparing the two districts and and uses that were committed and it should basically identical that's one number two um right we did present but and those are the current ordinance current correct no get to your question though um based upon those reports it seems that the tendency for the Republican committee started in 2000 now as far as we know since 2000 there's been very there's been no subst I think we've presented uh the code from in 2012 as far as I know there's been no subst substantive change since 2000 so it's effectively the same I can't point to anyone particular to answer your question directly I just don't have it yeah um and then I think I heard you say that the SIC code that you're looking for is the want to say it was 487 87 is SIC code 46 is in the ordinance yeah it's number 46 for perform minuted uses in the DB 26 oh I'm sorry 26 and 41 is what I referred to that's the the cobbling provision where if you find if anything you find in the other Provisions you can put it all in one spot absolutely yeah can and have you can you compare how the proposal relates to the definition of sic 887 and how this might fit and I guess my follow question is are is that the only SIC code that this might apply to well we we thought it was under it applied to number 25 which is 73 sorry 25 your code which is 73c is advertising right um and similar use similar Business Services adverti can't the function of this of my client is to campaign that's advertising effectively um and then 26 as well public relations and similar Services uh again public relations that's part of what the committee is going to be doing as far as Outreach at meetings um and also the the usage is there Mr Banner said there his office and his tenants there do the same thing that we are proposing to to do so there's nothing Noel being done here so we think that we fall within 25 and 26 and Si codes 73 and 87 to be clear okay um I can read the if you're not I can share the definitions of those from the board so for examp so for 87 which is uh number 26 in the code which is engineering surveying architectural accounting auditing bookkeeping research and development management public relations and similar Services that's SIC code 87 uh for the record sic means standard industrial classification y thank you y okay go ahead I'm sorry um so there's no the way that the code works there's not a definition for a two-digit code but if you if you search it what you'll find is uh a breakdown of for example 8711 through 8748 uh and one of one of these is the Public Relation Services uh that's been cited that's specifically 8743 public relations Services the definition for that is uh establishments primarily engaged in the preparation of materials written or spoken which are designed to influence the general public or other groups in promoting the interest of their clients and then they provide example business types and it's lobbyists and public relations services and so the other one that's been cited is code number 25 uh with SIC code 73 which is advertising that uh is going to be structured very similarly uh the definition of that is for advertising back to that uh let's see advertising agencies is defined as establishments primarily engaged in preparing advertising uh parentheses writing copy artwork graphics and other creative work in placing such advertising periodical of newspapers radio and television other advertising media for clients on a contract or fee basis establishments which advertising which place advertising with media but perform no creative services such as a media buying service are classified uh differently those with those which write advertising copy uh but do not place the advertisement with the media or also classified differently and those which provide services in Commercial Art and Graphics are also classified differently um example uh business types include advertising agencies and advertising Consultants um and so I I think what I'm hearing is the the the board is being asked to consider whether or not this uh definition of public relations or advertising agencies uh applies to the Hun County Democratic committee this office use um and I think that's the the Crux of the issue uh the there may be other sic codes that also align with or potentially align with this um um and Bo you let me know if you're interested in that information as well is there is there an SI code that allows for political opposite specifically there is right so right and so our neither of our zones expressly have that code in them it's correct it's uh sic 8651 for political organizations so if that was in there this wouldn't have be because the the zoning officer then would have been able to De site that that was alled on that because of the SIC code for new people who aren't aware the S codes are kind of a list of what's allowed very expressly so there is one it's not like other I guess what I'm trying to ask is it's not like other political officers have to prove these 87 and 73 work for them there's one specifically if we if we had wanted to put it in there is that correct um there is an SIC code that is specific to this type of um organization okay thank you but let me ask that is because you is there anywhere in the burrow where 8651 is listed under thing thatc fots haven't been used for 40 years but um but we'll be a I don't remember seeing no 8651 anywhere in our ordinances but obviously we have had political organizations work you know having tency and operating in town right we corre there's none listed in the burrow and yes we have these organizations or I would say that those sic definitions you gave my client fall squarely within those services and and operations but but again we've been here we've been we've been in the burrow as has the Republican committee so even though there's not a code for it it's there it's allowed I think you can find a way you find appropriately find a way legally find way way under the existing code to allow those uses all right for my professionals any other questions for this no open can I yeah um from a legal perspective this Board needs to find that the zoning officer committed a specific error in making this determination could you just and I think you kind of have but maybe just kind of summarize for the board what error you are saying the zoning officer committed in making this determination because they're looking at language there's some interpretation which you haven't applied for you applied for an error and you haven't applied for a variance you're specifically saying the zoning officer committed an error so I just want them to be clear on what specific error you're pointing out errors is in misreading the code and not allowing us uh to be permitted use on either 87 or 73 that's the error um if you look at the if you look at his his decision is denial which is the last page of that packet I'm sorry of the of the application not the packet I sent today but the application you know if there's handwriting on the right hand side I assume it's it's officer handwriting goes not permitted use as per current bur ordinance sic codes 87 and 73 does not reference this operation I think that's I I think it's operation anyway so I think it's a misreading of your code as far as 87 I'll use the Si code numbers for ease of reference because we consistent 8773 allow for this use my clients use it at that site and I will say you can say well there's no use for it in your code no specific use in your code and yet we have my clients's been operation the Barrow the Republic committee has been operation the B so there it is a permitted use it's been it's been allowed and we're just moving out the street let's all Reve it well I did want to I did want to ask a question about that because I I seem to remember and every anybody else that was in the previous meeting correct me if I'm wrong I thought the proof that we were struggling over was that I understand that you've given us a the paperwork that you've given as regard to the Republican party and that part of your argument is not that the zonian officer interpreted it wrong but you're also um alleging that um there were political reasons that this wasn't allowed um and that the Republican party was allowed and we not but one of the questions we asked last time was you don't have we don't know under what decision because we don't have the permit for either the Republican party where they were on Main Street where they they are now or either where where the Democrat Party was originally we don't have those available to compare and I think I think wasn't that kind of one the we were struggling we were asking for some if you could Oprah that and find proof but the Oprah you've done is all of the4 so I I so I have two questions then like did did you find that proof we looked for and the second question then would be um as Cara alluded to what what was the reason for giving us the packet of all of those own officers decisions for the year because I was because my understanding is that you want to see what we opr and that's the reason why I brought this but to answer your question about why we don't have the tency permit for the Republican committee the Republican committee moved to its present location in 2000 this 10 SE document was not required until about a year and a half ago so there is no document right so the so the the implication that the Republicans will let produce something and the Democrats are being denied is not really fair because the rep Republican party hasn't asked to change location right now we don't know they they like very well be given exactly the same denial as you were right so I just want to kind of clear that up a little bit about I feel like there's this flat threat of political reasons being lettered and I don't think that's fair personally I definitely been mentioned many many times in this argument it hasn't just been about the SIC code or he's done it interpreted it wrong that was issued straight off the bat and I I think I think that's an important question or point to make does anybody else feel oh I appreciate you meting here because I wrote down the same thing the Democrat headquarters was down at uh police building is originally and then they got a permit for that and they moved over to where they were up until recently they got a permit for that Republicans were on Main Street somewhere they got a permit for that they moved out to rout 12 they got a permit for that everything was treated equally you know and then we changed here and changed some things up here and then after we did that Democrats decided to move and I totally agree with you if the Republican going to come back to main street we would be saying the same thing to them well shouldn't well perhaps well that's okay let me say we would be fair about it whatever we're doing we're going to do here we would be doing there but but to say that there that the one party is being treated differently than the other as the chair just said they haven't asked uh yet but they're allowed to operate State operation that's but you would have been able to nobody was going and giving you his owning violation when you were down by Unity Bank that's right because there's no reason for a violation because it's a permitted use and therefore my client rightly thought I'll just move up the street because there no violation it's a permitted use um and I just want to be very clear I said I don't want try to be antagonistic when I mention this this this thing about the Constitution isation but that is something that you have to you have to base your consideration upon you know think about this because it does open up the challenge because if it is denied my client is that's a consideration for them it's not a threat I want I want you understand it's a legal argument it's different I know it takes a lawyer to think like that but it's exactly how I intend it okay it's not a personal tack to be clear so can you just make clear what your first amendment argument is first it's it's cing political speech you don't allow my my client to stay in place that's if it's a non-permitted use but it is a permitted use that's I'm just saying I'm not being antagonist to I'm just trying to understand that's for the board and previously the zoning officer to determine but again the contention is under your zoning code is to permitted use okay which would have to be found first in order for there to be a St other's First Amendment again just trying to understand and make sure that the board has you know a full understanding of this and again you have equal protection AR as well because now you have different political groups being treated differently also know well we just discussed that applied so they haven't been treated differently Mr s said that he was told by the zoning by the zoning officer that it's not it's a political organization it's political now what does that mean it means that because your politics are are not what we want I mean also might mean also might just that looking at an SIC code that's not there arum I think I think that we're mudy the waters here I think that the that that the the argument that that you made about what the operation is rightfully falls under 87 or 73 because of what it is we should stop there and just leave it alone like I I think that the reason why it says he's talking about political is because there is an SIC code for IAL uses that's why I was asking Mr Banis before and it's just not in our ordinance for anybody anywhere that there's you know and the the Republican committee was at 129 Main Street we have that until 2000 the Democrats were 127 Main Street next door until they moved down to where the police office now at we used to be Insurance building and then and then and they moved over to their 200 Main Street and then they moved up to 150 whatever at you know by Unity Bank so it's not a think that this we're we're getting no time did we ever make it right by putting it in Si code yeah it's never been in there it's never been in there so I I think that you know it's not it's not an argument that's worth bringing up when you're you're it's mudding the waters getting people unnecessarily you know annoyed when the argument is what we're doing fits under stuff that's in your code the zoning officer did either didn't understand or or didn't read correctly what we were doing that is we argue is permitted under the s IC codes period hard stop and we just leave it there I think that that's I think we just in my mind that's just the argument and that's it like I don't I agree with you I I would tell you I think the very I said that's my primary argument I think that's really I think the strongest argument here for sure right that to my point that hasn't been your only argument and you have you call it m in the water I just wanted to make it clear for everybody that wasn't involved previously your previous your your main argument I one sentence on your second argument one people Anno I have like 15 so you know can we can we go back Beth please can you read the definition again of under advertising yes advertising agencies SIC code 7311 um establishments primarily engaged in preparing advertising parentheses writing copy artwork graphics and other creative work and placing such advertising in periodicals newspapers radio and television or other advertising media for clients on a contract or fee basis stop right there contract or fee basis yes for on a contract or other advertising media for clients on a contract or fee basis is the Democratic party charge does the Republican Party charge their candidates fees to do advertising for them I do not know the answer that question I have my a representative here who could answer a question if you want that's the one question you want to ask I can find or I can find out can you read the public relations one again she's not done with this one I stopped her keep I agree Dennis but we okay so after the contractor fee basis it continues to State establishments with which place advertising with media but which perform no creative services such as media buying service are classified in Industry 7319 those which write advertising copy but do not place the advertising with media are classified in Industry 8999 and those which provide services in Commercial Art and Graphics or other creative advertising services but do not place the advertising with media are classified in in Industry Group 733 and then the example firms are advertising agency and advertising consultants and if you if you combine that with the public relations I think you get what my client does would the board like that definition okay so Public Relation Services uh s code 8743 defined as establishments primarily engaged in the preparation of materials written or spoken which are designed to influence the general public or other groups in promoting the interest of their clients examples include lobbyists and Public Relation services and then the uh the other item that's been cited a number of times is uh just the last item in this ordinance as a permitted use which is quote any combination of one or more permitted conditional or accessory can you read it one more time be please I'm sorry for uh public relations public relations establishments primarily engaged in the preparation of materials written or spoken which are designed to influence the general public or other groups in promoting the interest of their clients examples are lobbyists and Public Relation Services going you have their clients like not for themselves as such yeah like somebody else being employed by somebody um can I ask you a question on and forgive me if anybody is offended by the term it's just what we grandfathering the grandfathering um think argument has been brought up a few times that it's allowed here and we just moved isn't it true that the permission permitted use goes with the land not with the organization move into a different spot in land is that correct so if they were permitted in that spot it doesn't move with them if if the spot I mean that's that is generally true that the the variance runs with the land is one way that one similar sentiment that people often say but but I do think that the argument is that they are moving within the same district correct yes and also that the hawk house 111 Main Street has has commercial use at that bord level I understand yeah no I was just that was used as you I wrote it down when you WR down approval stays with the it was mentioned several times that it's grandf and grandf and just so so while they are the argument is that they're moving from one location to the other within the same district I think the other the other considerations the board has to has to make that I started out with earlier confirmation that the permitted uses during those those moves or those examples are actually the same as what's being compared to today and also uh understanding how those previous approvals or Tendencies came to be and I think that is part of the reason why the the op request has been submitted um but what I I haven't had a chance to go through yet and and may You' had a chance but um to to verify how these uh with what may be similar organizations similar political organizations were approved so what was this SIC code that had been relied upon so that we know what the interpretation was at that point so that we can determine if it's applicable here we have that we don't have that by date do we before the previous stuff didn't cover this the original location is I think I think the concern is that uh that the information may not be available at this time that's right then approve so I have another question related to um this is in terms of considering these commercial uses that you say should be permitted it should be permitted under um what in what would your um what would your client's hours of Office be and total usage by persons and how many people would be coming go in as it says on the application there be once two employees hours operation 8:00 a.m. to 7: p.m. and there be two vehicles there' be somebody two people there permanently one yes every day one to two one to two people every day but there would be sometimes I would imagine there' be more right there's there there mean yes there'll be more people there yes but generally speaking this the this the U the operation do anybody else on the board have questions start online because you guys are Dennis are you able to understand that Miss because you don't have them in place that we've that this applicant need I just Den can you can you hear me yes I follow you follow I just wanted to make sure did you have any questions no I you know for me it's it's it's around um where would they fall in the code regardless of political party and seems like public relations to me but I don't have any questions for the the person yeah because we can do our discussion and the public questions yeah right now um Mike do you have any um online any questions I am good thank you thank you and Melissa I've been following I mean I guess you know where they fall in the code if those two codes are at je applicable and if there was that specific code for political organizations how come we didn't include it like it would be nice if we knew what the other that what the previous location done yeah I understand that because I I have struggled with that as well so we we don't know what the previous people thought or when they did or didn't for the end right right can we zoning officer approving that all kinds of stuff yeah just just because just because things were the previous zoning officer didn't exite these doesn't you can't comment on that rightly or wrongly is what it was um in the room you already have you got some more I'm sure you do I don't know more questions I I'll reserve for discussion okay question no I don't okay you gave your job did I um oh you can't vot but you can you can take part in discussion Mark you any questions uh no okay um this one a committee being approximated to polling stations is there any restrictions there it's not a polling station I understand that but um no it just okay oh you were thinking it yeah D no I no I think this is for the organization to meetings and conduct their business right yes things they do that is an interesting question though is it within 200 feet of the public library which is a poing station no well that's what I was thinking like it's not because I don't think the other side of Main Street is within the election side I think I think it it's very it's tight from the entrance to the library over there sorry I think I missed the concern Beth and I would the concern was was is the is the subject property within I think it's 250t 200 200t 200t of entr to the library which would election are but that is only when there's a when there's a vote taking place and I think that if they were and I don't know that that's really something we could even consider I mean if they want to get an approval out the law is if there's an election just we can't put signs up that's all but I don't think I I think 200 feet doesn't get you to that side of main I think it gets you like a couple properties around that door okay you know very clearly how many STS okay um can't be the I'm just checking on my notes if I don't have aop not the okay um all right so then at this point if there's no more questions from the board right hold on one second that's much effort I know exactly [Music] beim no it's 1188 yeah it's on the list it's within 200 feet at least the property property line to property line is within 200t I'm not how count the front dra is isway down the building I I don't think it's going to be issue and again the Restriction is the restriction on in is the day of an election right during voting hours it's not it's not like you know other parts of our coordinance where certain things can't happen within X number of feet of a you drug free school zone or other sorts of things and again this isn't that there's there's a provision of our ordinance that doesn't allow these types of uses within those types of uses this would just be a restriction on the way that they could operate which again isn't there boards concern the applicant right okay okay if there's no more questions from board members then I'll open it up to members of the public um questions of this I say witness but that we haven't got today this AB is that fair enough for me anybody online I mean I I didn't open up to see the hands sorry here do comments too I think they asked questions of all the witnesses so if we just need comments General comments thought do public comments no there's nobody in the attendees that has their hand up for comments for this application of the public here to make a question of this applicate not comment question at this seeing none let me move on the public commentary commentary from the public right com going be really specific all right so now you have a chance to make commentary on the whole application as a whole comment you want to make we' like to limit these to three minutes please and if you want to make a comment come up to the mic and you have to state your name and address for the record and make a comment um is there anybody online I that want to make a comment is there anybody in the room that wants to make a public comment there we go no attendees um can I have Mo I'm moving to CL did you want to make a it a zoom user does somebody on no all right so I think I asked for a motion close the public I think Jeff a second so can we take a rooll on that place mha yes Miss whitesman yes car Mr Campion yes Miss giin yes Mr Hill am I allow to uh yeah yeah to close but not on the application that's right that's right M swingle yeah Mr show yes Mr schender yes Mr Dash already I'm sorry you did why I was able to make the motion okay now is the time for the board to have discussion about how they feel about it it's not just questions always just discussion between us so you can discuss and you can ask our professionals if you have questions that you haven't already asked or concerns or clarifications so let's let's start um online get make sure we've included again before we start getting in here so Dennis if I can just say something Madam chairly um I do think we should hear from everybody and in doing that I think that um it would help the board to hear what portions of these arguments were um considered by each board member which SIC code is considered or not considered by the board member and um you know what is factoring in their analysis I think that would be a right thank you Dennis that um so for me uh the public relations I think that's the SIC code 87 um I I don't see the advertising one fitting myself but the public relations one it seems like regardless of political party um it fits in that um and given that the town doesn't have political SIC code anywhere um it seems like the intent is you know we're not going to disallow that in the burrow and so I I feel that it it fits under that SIC code um and given the current zoning um it should be permitted that's my feedback thank um Michael Mike I do not have any feedback thank you okay Melissa I'm kind of on board of Dennis I think it's a stretch for the marketing Melissa just a second you're a little faint can you move closer to your mic please that a little better yeah okay sorry um I'm kind of in line with with Dennis I think it's a stretch for the marketing and the advertising I don't see it really fitting there I think it's a little bit of a stress for the customer patients as well but again if we don't have that political organization SIC code and we don't have the knowledge of how the other locations were approved it kind of puts us in a predicament true okay thank you um so in the room I'm gonna go the other way you don't mind just for fun uh don yeah I mean public relations seem to fit the best with the advertising combination I don't know how you would combine them given the two definitions I mean but they are very similar the fact that you're a contractor getting customers in but with that said certainly without having a specific um it's not I mean if we denied it we have ssis anywhere in the B I mean you would have to like where where they go um and I guess they're both of these are permitted uses in where the Republic committee is currently is that correct the same Zone where they are now in the highway district those two are uh and 73 yes they are both and so I look at them both being in both zones where the one's currently so tend to agree with the uh approval for the um to overturn the denial well you can in the discussion agree with Dennis and Don uh Republican committee uh had it they have it where they are not where they were they mooved from place to place to place so it's not like it's really changing uh not our discussion now but the 200 ft thing I guess just be careful but that's not under our consideration but uh I think I think uh I agree with with the Don and denn just you feel you want to comment I mean you yeah I'm in the same ballpark as uh as the Tre gentlemen at the end I wasn't here for lesson was it denied because of 87 and 7 yeah as it is on that packet exactly what he wrote down we don't um we didn't call the zoning office or anything to explain it we're just going off the application so was for both of those that's I see yeah okay well I agree with one and not the other H is that you your point too yeah agreed um I can understand what with what we've been trying to do in that trying to promote retail in the first floor I can see where things kind of got over overlapped maybe um but I do agree in that you know I see it with uh 87 um and that it's it's a little bit hard to deny that at this point I have not found a different way to say that you got it covered too many numbers yeah um just so I'm not having the last word I'm just going to go in order that's all right I want to say something when you're done so I'm done when the whole everybody's yeah no I hear everybody and I understand these codes I I struggle a little bit with the codes because I felt from Beth's description that there was more of a um what's the word I'm looking for an exchange of money for it rather than it being for like a nonprofit situation um and so I'm just I'm just like a eyes and teas thing and it's really specific for me the argument with the um didn't come in because that's not with the um Flor thing right doesn't that wasn't relevant to what that wasn't what yes no and I agree with but I can kind of see sometimes um one thing the testimony that was interesting on that for me was the hours of the office like the fact that there some many them more I I was imagine this was empty most of the time bra and or something which is a completely different scenario than having somebody in a commercial Enterprise in like business hours whatever even if do business hours different business hours um I do strugg with I I I am I know we said we were trying to just focus on just the the SIC code aspect of it but I do want to say that the the threat of the political thing was was thrown in straight at the at the backat and and I didn't appreciate that I I really didn't appreciate the implication that either us or the zoning and Construction office had any any political like negativity and Vendetta in doing what they did I find the zoning and construction off to extremely professional and and on their behalf I'm offended that the implication was thrown out there I know you've walked it back but at the last meeting and at this one it was mentioned um and and I don't think that's appropriate because I don't think this town or this board can ever be considered to have done anything against each political party like that so I I do find that offensive for the on behalf of the bur employees involved in this um and I know now we're just focusing on the SIC code and trying to just focus our decision on that part but I just I just feel that needed to be said um I'm gonna move on to you before I um Beth yes we go back one more time to the um public relations definition the examples at the end what were the examples they are lobbyists and public relations services and nowhere in that definition did it mention working for contracted clients as it did in the the than you the advertising line right the advertising spe client uh for clients on a contract or fee basis for advertising agencies um but Public Relation Services doesn't uh it just simply says say designed to influence the general public or other groups in promoting the interest of their clients but it doesn't provide any further detail about how about clients okay so um first of all you know I dismissed the entire argument this is political at all um I am a republican there are four voting members here tonight that I appointed that are not of my party including the chair so I take umage at any implication that this is political because my first day in office I appointed more Democrats to boards and committees and commissions in this town than the prior mayor to in four years of my party so I take huge difference to any implication that there's politics going on here having said that um I completely also dismiss the um advertising argument because being in politics for the last 30 plus years there you don't do pay clients in Republican or Democratic parties who take on candidates you raise money for them and you know they have fundraisers and you buy literature they buy literature you help each other out or whatever it is there AR any clients however parties are lobbying groups they are and I cannot deny that this is public relations under that definition citing lobbyists as an example because the Republican party in this County Democratic party in this County as well as all the parties in all the counties in the United states are lobing groups that's what they do so I am in favor of overturning the learning um my last 14th never wants to no I I I may made the argument that I was always going to it's not is not advertising there's no Fe for service as somebody who has been involved not as much as I once was but on the other side of the aisle um uh it's not feed for service uh County parties raise money and give it to clients they do absolutely create materials to help influence elections um they absolutely help clients get elected um it is very much with that public relations definition that was read is has been my experience and my understanding of it so I think that that's you know again I'm I'm also supportive of of overturning the decision based on on that code not the it's not fee for service count County organizations get they have money coming in and money going out but it's not fee for service it's not a client relationship C candidates AR are raising money and and the fact is is that candidates run for office depending on you know many cases at the primary without any support from the county organization so it's not you can't say it's a one the one thing it just but they're the county organizations absolutely are trying to influence the public very much fits into that l defition so I I agree with that I I think that um the uh the fact is is that we're you know we can't know what was in the minds of the folks who wrote the ordinance 25 years ago um when was there an intentional omission of a particular SIC code or was it just forgotten and I'm my experience being on this board for a little while is that it's probably more of the second the first just no one thought to include a particular code at the time it was written we have no evidence one way or the other so if we can find a way to take an existing use that's been in this district for a while if there are other District you and it fits then yeah I mean that's just kind of where we're I'm that with it so can I ask the two of you based on this knowledge your about the public relations aspect of and I want to just be specific about because it's I'm thinking because it's an applic count committee so that's a slightly different animal than like an individual say for inst so because it's the county committee they're you you they're involved and and also because the county committee then I guess that ties into the hours of the office they're more a perent member of staff and then it's going to be functioning on those different levels that you mentioned on lobbying it's lobbying there there really is no other so it's called the county committee but but essentially they are jump in please but they're essenti these there are 21 counties in New Jersey there are State parties the state parties have County committees there each each electoral District within each county has people elected to like the committee itself is is is is the body of the parties establishment which political parties exist to influence the public opinion and so so it is the work committee maybe Mis maybe Miss call anate yeah call it an association call it a CL yeah it Ser a it basically Ser in all of H County I don't know why it didn't no County committee no there's no 100 County comme there's 100 County Republican committee there's 100 County Dem committee and then the municipalities have their own local committees but the the Judiciary State Cas law has given the county parties great leeway to write their own bylaw so if you look at the hunter County Republican committee bylaws versus the Hun County Democrat committee bylaws they are vastly different okay so the the Judiciary is basically said you guys are a club you're organizing yourself you're political do whatever you want but if you substitute in forget Democrat or Republican and you put in NJ which is the lobbying Organization for the teachers union it is the same thing they are lobbyist that's all they do they're lobbyist they they yes they raise money so does the nja um sometimes there are are Democrat count County Republican Democrat committees across the state that pay dues nja they campaign for their beliefs like I mean just substitute and ra njda put any of those in you want it's all the same it do I would say and and it's not just Democratic or republican you know any political organization right if the if the Working Families party or the libertarian party or the green party or whoever right right were to they would be their their use uh their their operations whether it's countywide entity or a Statewide entity or a you know sub region of the state Highlands preservation it doesn't matter like they they're they're uh they're a chartered nonprofit that tries to influence the outcome of right change public opinion really like when Beth read that definition you know and I don't know how many times I made have read read the public right and then made have read the public relations one over I think at least four times you know I mean it was a complete non started for me when she hit the contracted clients right under under the um the advertising thing Complete because that is not what happens here but you know as soon as she said the word lobbyist you know I had know moment I was ready to say let's just give it to them because that's what they do that's what the Yeah that's what these associations these organizations do they Lobby I think my committee question was as much as part of that thank you both for you definitions imput on it it's thinking about as a committee and as a hun committee there's a lot of people going to be using this space over the different times it IT services a but I would say that the the again not testify for the client but having observed things directly we'll put it that way um when there is a convention when there's a meeting of the 400 committee members in a county it's not these building it's never these buildings they rent out other SP they would they're going to have 20 people making phone calls they've got a parking lot that's part of this building you know and hopefully they're not going to take up Main Street shopping and can we put that car can we put something like that in the resolution that we can't do something like just to overturn the thing okay so I'm just asking you to bring it back to your client do not take up value Main Street parking spaces you know before before you know 8:00 at night or whatever because the restaurants are open and use the parking lots that are available the applicant can of course say to the board that they would agree to put that statement in the resolution they will tell anybody who comes here to do that yeah Mr B said that there's space in the parking lot well there's and there's a county parking lot right next to like it's attached all part of it so we will direct people to not park in the street are you willing to put that in in the resolution for well I think that I think it's a good intention and there plenty of parking of course our people want to park and parking lots applicant will encourage yes encourage right encourage visitors to park in the parking lot workers sorry the two people that are going to be there all day long of course they want they're going to want to park there aren't they I I don't know I don't know where they answer they answer from the back or do they answer from the front well I think I think the part of the intention is that parking there for employees will be set aside for employees of my they know there's a back door there that some of the businesses use and I think some people use I don't know how who you know who's where but we will encourage visitors as well as employees to park in the parking lot or in the public lot not not in Main Street thank you think that's a yeah so yeah it's a good points it's things like so if both Republican Democrat whenever there's people want to go knock on doors they often times use the county the these offices as like muster points to like here's a pile of LP to go knock on doors with you know so so or here pick up alongside like it's not a it's not meant as they don't tend to be these you don't have 400 people at these things it's it's one or two people and it's definitely not a at the same time don't we want to put traffic on Main Street too traffic yeah but we don't want the parking SP well no right the parking spaces But ultimately wouldn't that be like kind of like four and a lunch that yeah I just want to say just just to remind the board and uh I think this is in line with everything I'm hearing but I just want to we did hear the definitions of both section 87 which included public relations and section 73 which included advertising this zoning permit was denied because the zoning officer specifically said that this proposed use was not included in either one of those sic codes 87 or 73 I'm hearing from the board that they feel that this is akin to 87 which is public relations and that SIC code does say and similar services so want uses lobbyist as a example but again it just says and similar services so in connection with what I'm hearing your thoughts are with the proposed use the public relations and that particular one I just wanted to point out that that language is in there as well it's in the code and Si it's in your zoning code and the SIC it's in yes okay the notes in the Cod corre thank you all right so does anybody feel comfortable proposing a motion or do I want Cara to make a motion can you sorry I said does anybody feel comfortable proposing a motion for us to vote on sure I'll well we have to say what we're moving are we the motion to the motion is to overturn the decision of the zoning officer denying uh uh this Zing per zoning permit specifically finding specifically finding that is committed use under 87 public relations Cod that that get it for you y okay sure does all right thank you second all right so a yes vote on this would overturn it and vote would maintain what the zoning officer um correct I just want to make sure I know I get confused what I'm saying all right so the motion was Jeff mayor second Mr J yes mayor Carol yes Mr Campion yes oh you went thank you um what oh meix is it yes uh m man yes Miss swingle yes M yes hear me yes yes thank pass the seat thank you very much all right we will work on the resolution we need a resolution for that one yes yeah the resolution that to you thank you back attention to insult anybody just be very clear okay thank you I still on the planning board as well so I understand where you're coming from um you a minute we minute break all right let's take the roll make sure everybody's back please mayor Carol I'm here um Council did not return uh Mr Campion here M GI here Mr Hill here M whitesman here M swingle here M Jo Mr schlinger here Mr Dash here Mr eek here Mr hay here M kazinski here Mr clo here M mcmanis here Mr Troutman here all right let's move on to item nine sorry I oh which is our annual report so um Eileen issued that R to everybody last time and then very kindly K associate no yeah he was got EXC um and put all of the um exactly on a map so we could kind of see if that influence um our decision so talk about the annual report anybody got anything they want to say anything about anything we did the idea behind Free Speech Free Speech first right I I mean I was recused from number of well I was accused of all those variances so that's why I'm asking oh I'm sitting not participating I want to be like I have not watched any of the videos of any of those hearings but I do want tocate as a and the resent member of the plan board not as mayor that you know there was a lot of due diligence done by the ordinance and I should say as a member of the ordinance sub committee that created some of this these changes we did a lot of due diligence you know we heard what the public wanted we changed the own for it and then it got overridden and that made me angry not angry frustrated with the right and sad frustrated sad for the town lck the opportunity and frustrated so but I did not hear the arguments because I was being a good D be under state right but for the new people the idea of this annual report is that we pull together it tries to inform whether we need to recommend if we gave a lot of variances for a certain thing in a certain Zone then is that for us to recommend to the council that we need to do an ordinance change just to change it per because if if we're allowing the variance constantly do we do that so that's what this discussion is kind of about to review what we what we gave what rances we gave and why and whether anything um would inform our year or recommend to the council to participate in this since I was refused pretty much all of those yeah I mean you can com it doesn't influence the decisions it's just what going forward these are recommendations to bring back to the council and yeah you the fact that you couldn't participate on certain applications doesn't mean that you don't have an opinion as to whether or not changes to the ordinances that the mayor and ccil adopted should or should not take place well I no I prefer that the variance didn't take place well are good right they said we did a lot of diligence to write those ordinances at the planning board they were unanimously passed by the board they were unanimously passed by the council and then if this guy comes in you know varant given that very frusterating to me which one are you talking about yeah you want to be specific or not but to your general point I on one of them because I think there's some depositions let's talk about anything that's that's got nothing to do with us it's got nothing to do with the council it's got nothing to do with the claim board on a general basis whatever our ordinances we set up any applicant has the right to apply for a variance absolutely right AB so we agree and we understand that principle of M that whatever we think that we shouldn't change and we should never they have every right under the law to apply for events now what you're talking about is whether you feel that we should have have given those but like you say we you weren't necessarily involved in the discussion I wasn't here and and uh you know I um so you know to argue why it shouldn't be why there shouldn't have been a variance granted um and you know I just no when I to the most point I can say generally when I first came onto the board I was confused about why if everybody put the time in the people that put the time into to the master plan and the V and the ordinances and then somebody came along and we just said well I don't care what they were thinking this is what we think in this particular case I mean obviously we're listening to the um applicants um information and their testimony and everything we discussions often and this board loves our discussions and we talk about things the end of the grave but I know that was confusing at first that whole principle of especially if the people that put the time in to create the audiences it can come across very strange and frustrating that they then just agree to you can look at it and and I hear you you can look at it both ways though and that is the purpose for the land swap otherwise you would get what there's some discussion about now zoning being preempted which I don't necessarily you know think that you would want to have either so the municipal landage law is there so that this board and the people on it have the ability to consider circumstances that they may or may not have thought about at the time of the ordinance now you get towns that don't Grant any variances you know that are you know not business friendly not development friendly or just they feel exactly the way you did we took the time to do this this is what we're going to do and then you get the opposite where you know you have a 15minute meeting and they Grant everything that comes before them that's why the l is slow there do you is you made a statement and I'm sorry to jump on you but it's it's one that's bugged me that I've heard many many times on this not from you personally just general but you say they don't Grant variances therefore they're not business friendly now is that those two necessarily go together just because you don't Grant something doesn't mean so just because you want to be business friendly doesn't mean you have to Grant every variance right so that's and just because a variance comes up and you deny it doesn't mean you're not business or applicant friendly or developer friendly it just means you don't think that really matches what the public what we're what we're trying to enforce for the public right I'm just trying to because I've often heard we've got to be business friendly we've got to be business friendly and often I've found some of our um way we process things actually into costing them more money C them more time so it's I'd like to be I think the point here maybe it ties into the next I'm not speaking for you but let me just think that the point of that it's disrespectful of the people that put the time in to do the master plan or the ordinance or whatever they do I think and the the the statement is often made when we do evance well we never thought of this particular scenario right it's been said many times um and I so I think going forward when we have an ordinance group of a group looking at something I'm minded I'd rather that group take twice as long as they think they need to take so that they do this is just a general statement again they do try to consider all those options except read really look at different op we considered all the things we wanted of course we didn't consider the things that we didn't want we considered what we wanted and then the planning board something can can so can I if we're going to make if I could bring it into recommendations that I going to float to possibly make to the governing body one thing that came up and I will in in an application where a variance was given and I voted against it and was in the minority well just leave it at that had to do with signage and I think that we had an application last year I can speak about a specific application is that okay I mention which one I'm talking about I know which one you're talking about you guys where the signage proposed um my reading of the ordinance was that it was not consistent but that was not where the vote went and so they got their approvals and so I think that the kind of signage that was presented in that application for the pool place I think needs to get looked at because I think that was the statement that was made I wasn't that's when I was in AC for the legal municipalities but I heard all about this from from Karen with the other no I know um and that was the thing that was said we never considered that sign so what what I would I would say is that I I you know my personal opinion is those kinds of like all wrapping signs is not necessarily something that I envisioned when we were talking about this over the years clearly it's out there clearly other towns another seems to be that there is some technological uh advancements that allow for these things to allow lights through and they're becoming more and they're cheaper to make and so we may see more of these kinds of I think that we need some clarity um I would say we either have to say yeah we don't want signs like this or if we do how what are the rules around something like this because the the issue we ran into and I think we blabbered was you know way our ordinance is written is you know percentage of the window pane and square inch and square feet and lettering and this and and it was hanging on the inside of the window it's different than if it's slapped on as a film applied to the glass like those we don't have our ordinance doesn't I don't think handles that what we saw in that application well and I think we need to do some something to decide how to handle these and it may very well be we just don't if the organiz we don't want them I think we may need to be explicit that we don't want them and that's a B I were just talking about because the mayor's point to your point like if there's a reason why you didn't consider something then let the board know it's in the purpose maybe it's somewhere but you know we didn't allow for this you know particular percentage or use or whatever because we don't feel that it belongs in the DB District because it's too close to blah blah blah so then that way when an applicant comes in and has that criteria that their planner has to satisfy and they have to show that it's consistent with the master plan and your ordinance it won't have a negative detriment a negative impact that's going to be a more difficult hurdle than if and I think that part of the challenge was the highway retail District not is not the same as Main Street and I and certainly not the other parts or Sangle or the other parts where we've got and I I I don't again I don't think our ordinance in the highway retail which is it's not a brand new Zone but it's not hasn't been around forever and ever you know it's maybe 15ish years or something I think that that that part of town may we may need to have a bit a more or some difference in the ordinance for signage for for those kinds of store and again whether whether it's a ban or conditions or something yeah Highway retail is different in terms of signage and we do have some differences in the code like we the the pylon signs and the standing signs we do have differences in how we retail for signage but but the facade signs and and the and the window signs I don't know if we have enough distinction that it's appropriate for that zone and I think that was part of the things we Wrangle with that particular application but it might we're gonna have like we're gonna have these come up there's there's turnover in the shops and there may be some desire for those kinds of signs in those places rville as well you know there there's a there's a few of them and again we had this came up not this year but last year I guess with bless when they were looking at the site there the old uh Pizza Hut um 25 Burgers whatever there was a regulatory reason from the can Canabis control board about what what what that needed to be there like we have nothing right in our ordinances that deal with those kinds of things and that's why we had to deal with that application as as a different entity so I think that that so what would that recommend kind of I don't have a good way to consolidate this the the signage requirements in the HR District I think Glo I think globally because I think that what to me the egregious part of that application was the percentage over it wasn't we we weren't looking at 5% more or 10% bigger it was like 700% bigger than are allowable but that's because of the type of sign it is by definition it wraps around therefore for it is all so I think we almost need to add in yeah I I would I would I would agree that there's two I think there's two recommendations then I one recommendation is burrow wide how to deal with these cling wrap signs on Windows I would feel lights too I want to look right and then the second one is do window signs and other sign it within the HR does that need to we need to look at adjustment there in terms of coverage and and and material and things like that percentage thing yeah because again the the part of the you know part of the the difference on Main Street has always been you we didn't you know we don't we don't want there's a security issue and there's a visibility issue and there's a aesthetic issue about this percentage of of OB Street seront that's covered with signage as opposed to you I think Highway retail is different right that's so I think there's I think there's two things there those those are the kind of coming out of that one we're looking at if we're looking at the where work relief was granted I think that was one we should some we should we should have further discussion and just to add to it I am in committees I I'm looking at a signage Review Committee for that ordinance anyway which could wrap into that and start to look at that as well and look at the ordinance um as part of that work maybe that follows on from the other work maybe had to grab that more but I just made K as far as the the annual report formatting is that what we're trying to discuss here or is this going to go to um Council we we have to we have to summarize what we did and then we also have to say whether we think there's things from this that we recommend to the council we should do yeah just just a just a general observation the annual report seems to be too detailed like i' like to see a little bit more concise like for example February 13th it's just saying that some hearings were carried um you know you get down to page seven like it'd be nice to kind of use the map have just an executive overview executive summary we had these number of applications this is what one page isn't that last page do why do we have the seven pages up front because that's just the way that they're formatted what's really funny Don is that a few years ago they used to be shorter and then people on the board said I need more detail now you want me to do a little bit more cons I'm willing to do whatever you guys it's the you know preference of the board at the at this moment I mean you could you could say a penic a five years I get that well I like the last page now you brought up the last page that seems to make sense to be the first page and the the I mean they could just see the meeting minutes the ex only the minutes the no but the and and they have a book of resolutions as well that show understand stat requirements yeah there's a and this is what attached to the resolution that I'm going to be preparing that will say the list of action here's the recommendations that the board is making to the commit the mayor council based on that so it's really an see how long like one application we did complete and then it was carried and carried and carried so having that history sometimes well it could be like aart form I don't know it seems like page 10 should be one the ex there's not a there's not a requirement that the the zoning stuff has to appear after the planning board stuff right I mean it could be on page one right those are so no idea this is how the format was and it's kind of everything and then we summarize summary in the beginning the most important thing is the recommendations you're going to make because that's what the that's what the mayor and Council has to add the more information they have handy at their fingertips to use I mean listen I'm always the the more you have there the better in one spot so it's easier so you know I think the we need to it's up to you do they need to know that we carry Chick-fil-A to March 26 on February 13th I actually think they do and I going tell you why is that when members of the governing body get yelled at a shop right about why is Chick-fil-A closed what's going on they need to know that Chick-fil-A didn't have their crap together and we had to carry the thing to all different meetings so it would make make sense maybe a summation chart saying that these applications were carried for 180 days the average time an application was carried right then because if I was to look at this I I would have to look at every time we carried it to add it all up so you're saying rather why why so we it's not crazy to say we could do we could do it by applicant as opposed to exactly applicant and oh we carried it X number of times it was delayed we baked in it like that would be more actionable in terms of a summation from an executive right from an executive standpoint it's easier to make a decision I I'm just it doesn't it's just a lot it's just I think to the point of you saying about all the carries I think that's a something that we could put in our report is that something to consider for us and how we our business change the formatting don't do it by date do bring do it by application do it by application like hard though because the minutes are done meeting by meeting but it's an executive annual report somewhere think of it more of an executive summary with the map you know how long chickfila was car is looking for an executive summary of you know each application is is not more of a chronological uh you know recording of what happened during the year so we could take those things out but um let's double check what she has to do the way it is we just have to pull the information out for ourselves say that in 2024 the the board granted six C variances from sidey yard setback in the DB District this this and that and what I'm hearing is that that didn't give enough information to really make a recommendation as to what needs to happen so then it kind of morphed into yeah people want a summary of the year which exactly what that given and when you have um many people looking at something everybody's going to have a little different what your suggestion would have a reformat that right now and I'm not sure well you slice you just slice the data a little differently right you say for each of these applications that we approved they were these these particular applications were carried nine times over a period of time this one received these are the total number of variances this these application to receive these variances in which zone which fits with the map right let me let me just this is question is that I know that because it's on page seven 45 4055 d701 says that there has to be the the Zoning Board of adjustment has to issue a report of variance applications is there a similar part of the ml that says that a planning board must also no because if we were not a joint board planning board wouldn't even do it this just the function ad correct so it's so it's not ready a planning board annual it's a zoning adjustment board report and land use board so we operate in both doing that that I had accused before you as the question when we used to have two boards we couldn't get volunteers for either one so oh no no I'm I'm fine with that yeah and maybe the format of this done with your comments um again committees and we'll look at the PB bylaws maybe it's something that we can yeah I mean just make committee and look and make a suggestion for next time maybe subit would like to that I'll give them all the information sh I'm I'm sure I'm not going to get it corre D is going to be on that commission so committee so you I'm only arate so needs go in right so signage I'm heing signage and we've got plans to like look at that during the year anyway which I'll come into later and again maybe the I all right so I'll put I'll put something together with that language I'm sorry I do have one minor thing is is we had we've had a number of zoning you know we've heard a number of applications about appeals of zoning board decision zoning zoning off right I I don't know some of those get captured here because the board acted and some of these that were not in some of like so is that I don't know what other people think I I just it feels to me like there's been a lot of it going on and I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing but I don't think it's anything that we are allowed to actually do because I think that's why we can't tell the zoning or construction officer how to inter what I'm what I'm saying the recommendation to the governing body is because we've had a number of these cases where there's where there's been denials and we've had a subset of those cases that have come here on appeal because people don't agree with it does that perhaps suggest uph and right some are denied and some are upheld does it suggest perhaps that there are areas of our ordinances right that are not as that that are not clear all of it comes down to the codes everything he does is related to the codes which which we're trying to get rid of kind of back on so so then what I was gonna say is that the work that we did last year to to update the zoning ordinances to eliminate the ambiguity of the SIC codes or the restrictiveness of the SIC and to leave to leave flexibility for common sense needs to happen this year and it got punted and by the governing body and yeah I don't think you want to put this in a report however I don't know how to put this I don't I understand what you're trying to say well well because I think listen and and again not that I'm trying to make work more work for any body but I I feel like if the point of this report is to show the governing body what's been happening and what they may want to consider it being all-encompassing is not a problem the fact that we have had a number of zoning officer determinations being appealed here shows that there is some confusion or ambiguity that should be reviewed whether it's to change sic codes whether it's to eliminate them whether it's to you know uh tighten something up remove the similar service like whatever but it covers a large number of things that's what I'm suggesting is that and I think that because again sub committee worked a lot on this last year and it didn't get across the finish line and it's frustrating was the word of the night um that and and it it's difficult for this board to be put in that situation that I will say because there is a determination the zoning officer makes there is an ordinance that you are allowed to interpret um this one and you know it's it's a it'd be easier if you didn't have to do that yeah it's definitely for review review with very that's the fine word covers a lot of different things I just think that that's something lots of different they need to be aware that the it needs revie well they they all want it out they want the codes out as well um there have been you know some indication that you know they just want to take over Zing themselves and it's like whoa so um I that's allow the law let's just recom we need to Tre lightly totally right we need to Tre lightly I understand where you're coming from yeah but thank you for making that point because I really good point to all right so I will put some language together I will circulate that one of the things I wanted to know is are we okay with the map that was attached I thought that they did a great job make sure that that is form everybody you know you just this conversation reminded me that I was expecting a text from the council president and who's also the FCP trustee from the council regarding uh the Main Street data that held up and kind of dismantled all the work that the ordinance subcommittee had done to get rid of the sa codes and he sent me a text he told me he was going to send me one so I could report on this and I totally forgot mentioned it that he is going have that we will have the datea on M stre retail by mid February thank you thank you for reporting on that because yeah I was yeah I thank and we'll come into that inites in a minute as well anyway um is that good for the report we can pull that together now Bas what we did perfect anybody else want to add anything before we uh move on good okay right item 10 Che items right next meeting is February the 11th 2025 I understand we have a possible conflict we have only one item we have a completeness item at your conflicted outop card right that that's the one we need to find a conf I did contact Bill H and uh cler he was on I sent the email the very next day after our reorg meeting and he was working to get that published but I don't know I spok to two attorneys L attorneys uh neither of which is free um for planning board meetings um the second one I had a conversation with late today he gave me two more names of two more potential attorneys uh one of which I'm familiar with the other one I asked Cara to find out something about yeah she didn't know who he is I but he came highly recommended by somebody I do respect um board attorney so I'm working on it thank you now if we can't find one if we I'm just I'm just being Dev if we can't find one oh good question Sor if we can't find a conflict attorney for the 11th and but we might be able to find one for the next week and is that something we can ask the applicant to just delay and explain why we not absolutely just has it even been complete yet no complet for complet complet and really on the 11th attorney doesn't I mean you can proceed we could proceed without an attorney for I haven't even looked at it so I don't even know I didn't want to look until we knew we had somebody but um so we could just let right okay just I just wanted to know where KN where we're going with that just in case it might change okay and we have nothing else on that agenda right now right just the resolu we be the resolutions the resol perfect we'll do those we'll definitely do one I don't know if we'll do all right the exciting Day news you've all been waiting for I know but you all know about it anyway um committees so I've been making phone calls I've asked people who wants to serve and everything and I'm really glad that everybody has jumped on board um so what will'll be the first committee is um the sign Review Committee as it stands by ordinance right as it is set up um the HPC confirmed that Wendy or would be continuing for them the FCP have yet to tell me who their representative will be but they'll let me know um Hannah she she sent you an email today maybe she did sorry if she did then it's then if that's correct I'm sure she will we'll continue as the on that um Hannah has agreed to continue and and Mark Hayne the um OG um SRC committee person who wrote the ordinance um I thought that was appropriate and he's agreed to serve on that that's sign to come in with as it is yep moving on from that or continuing on from that what I want to have is I've been thinking about this all last year so this is a sign Review Committee Review Committee does that make sense that signage Review Committee Works Within all the wheels and cogs of our organization it works with Z it interacts with zoning and construction with the FCP and over the year I've heard concerns about how it's working so what I want that Sandage Review Committee to do is basically work together look look at the ordinance and the what we have uh the ordinance that sets it up and then also Lia with the FCP and Zoning Construction in reviewing the process how it works does it work right does what we have work right and or do we need to change anything if the answer of that is we don't need to change it that's fine I just want it to be looked at because I know there are concerns um from both zoning and um FCP about how we interact and whether it's needed and all those so that would be the remake for that committee so Hannah and Mark have agreed to serve on that I'll be on and then has agreed to be involved in that also with his experience of or ordinances and the signage review and I'm thinking also from our discussion now is that we could Contin we could almost extend that committee to look at the the sign ordinance itself not the sign Review Committee setup ordinance the actual sign ordinance that we did at the same time because that's where that work that you mentioned Jeff would come would pop into it could the actual it could now you could we could look at that as well just to buron it up and say did we consider everything that could be an extension of that but let's let's consider that for that committee to to look at so who's on that committee the the SRC RC yes thank you the srcc that's um me Hannah Mark and Jeff then the next committee I want to set up is um planning board bylaws I'm calling it um so that this would be working closely um with Cara and be with both actually I forgot the sign Review Committee will have to go with car will have to check what we do with that ordinances PB bylaws some of it would be Cara because what I'm wanting that to look at is we have we have three things that we work under we have our uh uh setting up ordinance we have our PB bylaws and then we also have a little report called rules for citizen input that's where Beth would car about so the first two set things like we want to look at our agenda our time in how we do things there's little tweaks and things and we want we can look at um but I want that to do and we've also been talking about resolution tracking and I think that could come into that committee about how we set something up within our bines to make be clear on how we're tracking applications and how it goes through so that um and then the citizen input meth I'm thinking is we could use that as a current document that we can tweet for that document we talked with with the SCP in terms of Outreach about making things more easily communicable to people who need to access the services and use the system I don't know if you I I I've forgotten about that rules it was brought about when it was we had a lot of contentious meetings so these rules were brought in all of these or else she'll be expelled kind of thing um we don't tend to have that so much anymore but also when I read it say that it was very Dr sorry um I figured that could be a good springb something we could start off and make that bit more user friendly it could start into a process that we talk with the FCP when they might help us again the sign Review Committee would use it for how do people access our services and understand what's going on because look it's very confusing and sometimes the actual work that we do can look really confusing be I just I just want to get the things communicated out a bit easier I think that could be part of that screen so that PB bylaws subcommittee um would be myself and then Adrian as a council member agree because it's has a lot of tie-ins with what council are doing um Melissa swingle agreed to um be on that and D Echo with his for detail and organization and sorant andant youant I anyway go French word all right um blush you now all right the the other one uh the other committee um coming out of this will be re um I don't know what the word is I'm scared now use the wrong word um starting up again the ordinance brackets zoning committee so I said brackets instead of parentheses there we go um zoning committee that did all the work last year that you referenc and Jeff um start that up with view to moving that process forward obviously we took the it didn't get past Council but we want to as Jeff said we want to get that those items moving um so um brianly though the ordinance is tabled it was not bur out it was t no I didn't yeah I didn't I'm sorry but I it said turned down I didn't mean to say that I just meant we didn't we didn't get it through but we need to restart that Pro say and as the May suggested um the FCP have agreed to a timeline to get the data that they wanted to inform that process so we can work with that that would be great um as regards the makeup on yeah yeah you um Brian agreed that he asked to leave that um committee um so thank you for his service last year appreciate his time on that um Dennis has agreed to stay Dennis has a lot really good keeps it all calm um stay on that and then this is um Jeff um has also agreed to um work on that committee to help us move that forward his SP um experience and knowledge is going to be in valuable on that moving us forward together oh um and that would be the mayor too right and you're on and me me the mayor Denis and Jeff that's the thought right that's F yeah because they're looking the ordinances I did actually make double check that we had I now so that seems to be enough for me for for now now moving forward some of them can start as soon as um the Ordinance one obviously we'll wait for the FCP and we'll and we'll go gently and slowly with that one and we'll move ahead um as we can working together with everybody on that one any um yeah it seems like enough points to be getting on with right everybody's got a little bit of something to do so just in need to get used to planard first and then I only put mark on because he actually wrote that on I it's appropriate that he goes on it ask him to rewrite it he has a pwn sh for writing the day the day no it shows up on like times crossw tomorrow it's too long for listening so it'll listening all the time for I've changed all my settings all my meta sets I don't let it like words it's a purple category are side B you spell it wrong because somebody spelled it wrong when it first came Alum came over incorrectly wrote aluminum here that's incorrect so I Stand My Ground on that one Al aluminium about aluminum M saying I don't know he says things like that anyway let's move because it's already we're doing quite well but it's still 927 words um all right um that's all I have we going 11 let's move on to the bills they were distributed today and if you need to see them physically they're here can I have a motion to audit the bills please move Ro [Music] play May car yes Mr cion yes Miss giin yes Mr Hill yes Miss whitesman yes swing yes Mr show Mr slanger yes Mr B yes thank you okay item 12 we have any need to go into executive session excellent um item 13 bye thank you all for being in person as well I appreciate that that we're able to be yes great to see Don in person great to see K in person to