##VIDEO ID:Xea8MYq0a34## so she is not present but all other members and including Mr Su are here present and we're happy to have him here in the flesh um may I have a motion please for the approval of the final agenda so move's a by Jim Dunlap and a second by Don sui any discussion on the motion any objection to the motion motion carries unanimously the next item is the nomination of officers Nancy I'll turn this over to you okay so um pursuant to your uh policies and your procedur your procedural manual um at the first meeting after the expired members positions are filled by Council which occurred yesterday um a chair and Vice chair will be chosen and the LPA members you can nominate a person for each of these positions there is not a second that's required uh the vote will be taken in the order that the candidate was nominated positions can be filled by majority vote um if a majority is not received second ballot will be taken for the two candidates receiving the most votes from the um so there's a motion is there a second on the motion there was three second second okay all those in favor say I I anyone opposed likely this morning please come on that we're glad to have you hello good morning I'm I'm Katherine C laon and my sister and I live on Madison Court in the house that my parents built in 1964 they started it in 6 and I'm just here to ask you not to allow any big tall buildings my first visit to Fort me beach was in 1953 and we spent the winters here until we were all in school and then we used to come for um November and December and then we moved we finally moved here full-time and we lived it righted coconut and it was our way our home away from home and we arrived in a 16t travel trailer with um five of us and um we ended up buying a bigger mobile home so that we could live more comfortably and then we just my father decided to have the house built by a local Builder um think about it back then no um nail guns right think about it so and it was Bud Bailey who was person who lived on the beach and he was a builder so but we're we're concerned about the new buildings I went to the meeting for um the Red Coconut property when they had it at pink shell and one of my questions that I asked him was was he aware of the height restrictions when he purchased the land and he said yeah so it was kind of like yeah but I I took it as yeah but I didn't care cuz I know I'm going to build what I want to build and um having a restaurant in a park does not sway me either way to let those tall buildings go up and you know Santa Bell became a town before we did and do you see any tall buildings over there no because they're sticking to the plane and I would like us to stick to our plan because I think you know you Wen if you weren't here in 1960s then you don't know if you weren't here and you know about why we became a town because of the county gave a piece of land sold gave whatever we're not sure but they gave a piece of land way which was a established um easement to the beach for the public and it was across from Virginia Virginia a and it was in the middle of Diamond Head which is a wonderful facility they do a lot of things for the beach I understand that but they bought the land here and they bought the land here and they didn't have this and the county said oh sure have it and so uh you know it was and as you know that that's the North End of the island was established first so those people had that easement for years and years and years and all all of a sudden they didn't have the easement so if you could possibly stick to your guns of the plan that was made by the people who cared the most in 1995 when we became a town thank you very much for your comments we appreciate it all right thank you that's my sister we liveed together at the house is there anybody else who would like to make public comment this morning okay hearing none we'll move on to the next item uh we don't have any public hearings today but we're here specifically to talk about U public benefits and um I'm gonna Judith do you want to start off the conversation either way so um mostly I see my role today is in gathering your feedback comments um input and kind of putting that together for you all um uh some things I was thinking about coming into this that I think might be helpful is when you're having your discussion thinking about what the next steps might be what the result of this might be um I might suggest doing a joint meeting uh with the Town Council um sometimes things are Lost in Translation if you you know staff can certainly present your ideas to Town Council but it might work better if you all do it together in in that kind of joint Forum um I know there are uh in in the works we don't have dates yet but for meetings for the comp plan um and then after that for the um revisions to the Land Development code so that would be the time where if there was agreement to make those changes and add those input we would need um that for the comp plan first and then later for the Land Development code and I can make suggestions about where if any of those changes might um um go in in those places um I would also suggest that you think about definitions of terms um I think that that from what I've seen has been some confusion how you might Define a view corridor we've seen some differences in the way that's designed and uh defined and some of the projects you're going to see coming forward people get creative with the definition of that so if there was a um a definition from you all about what that was what what that look like could you put parking in a view corridor that type of thing I think that would be helpful um and not just for that term um for some of the other terms um restaurant also I mean it seems like we all know what a restaurant is but is that mainly food is it a bar is there live music how big is so there's there's some things you may want to think about in in creating definitions um and um that was the the main thing thinking about where you're going to take this in the next step comp plan Land Development code what kind of meeting you want to have what kind of um how how you want the process to move forward because I think that from staff we would certainly like to have a a a step forward in the process um and then we're here if you have any questions about how this works from our end when the builders and developers come in and start asking us questions how we handle that internally before it gets to you um certainly any other questions along the way is that helpful very helpful okay thank you Judith um anybody have comments on what you just said I I foresee that our next step would be that joint meeting that we've talked about now for months and hopefully that might actualize but you know I um I know the result of the seate case but I did not watch the entirety of the meeting I just watched the vote part um Nancy were you there I was can you can you just summarize the discussion about public benefits was there anything that might be helpful here to us today that the council um talked about yesterday well there was a lot of discussion um concerning the height the parks um some of the other um amenities that had been and I Ed the word amenities kind of loosely um that were embedded in this in this project um I mean basically yesterday's meeting in my memory is that it complied with um procedural requirements everyone had their say um they did go through the um the proposed document the proposed development agreement um not in as much detail as the LPA did and they were quite complimentary of the LPA for taking that deep dive into the details um but there was discussion regarding the highlights of the parks the um a little bit further discussion about the um what constituted a park um specifically where that roundabout was um adding I think a water fountain some um additional um amenities discussion of a possibility of having a bathroom um that would comply with FEMA as well as other you know regulations um but there was no real discussion as far as um what constituted a um a special benefit or a public benefit to my my recollection and Judith if you want to add to that I don't remember anything yeah I mean I agree with Nancy I mean what we're looking at now um there's some examples that we put in the agenda that um Sarah had pulled from other places and then certainly you're all's um input where you're talking about this is the this is what a public benefit is and this is how we're going to Define it and this is what we're going to you know trade off for there wasn't a conversation like that about you know um is a park worth two stories or or that was not but they certainly did review what the defined public benefits are and the the development agreement um certainly if you have any questions about the development agreement process because we're going to have to put this conversation into that process as well I don't know whether we're going to see more of those moving forward but we may so I think it'll be important however we choose to talk about public benefit that fit into both the CPD process and the development agreement process yes and in resolution um 2473 the it's in section two that talks about minimum requirements and there is a description of um it's 2.16 this is where uh special benefit comes up I mean we're calling it public benefit but I believe it's intended to be the same um a description of any special benefit to the town as a result of the demel the de development such as so these are descriptive but not mandatory uh the promotion of Economic Development affordable housing hurricane recovery provision of needed public facilities provision of public lands or Recreation and or the elimination of blight such as blight so such as is descriptive of but not um mandatory or restrictive I guess this is one way to say it okay um I was just wondering if they had if if they I mean we talked a lot about public benefit I was just wondering if they had elaborated on it at all none okay okay Jim do you want to start since you you proposed uh you had a written proposal uh don did you get that by chance uh no I don't recall see that NE had he left when I passed it out it should be in the was in the packet I thought somebody was going to send it but I didn't get it in an email yeah it's in the packet so for Doug and Don um my approach to this was to try to get a conversation started um my personal beliefs around how these things work are to try to establish fairly Global guiding principles things that in forensic analysis don't argue one way or another but these are things that say there ought to be at least a knock at the door that we recognize and these kind of things are familiar to us and they ought to have the Baseline of these before any details get put around it so you'll see in the document i' I've brokered a set of guiding principles here that I think are the gateway to any conversation around a developer or or an applicant providing an argument for public benefit um I went on then to categorize some natural uh destinations if you will of the offerings and all this is to create a Common Language where I think we can talk to each other we can understand what we're trying to represent and demonstrate and there's a requirement in some way shape or form to fit into something that our community believes is of value to us um and then after the categorization so you've got some natural convergence points there I went in and put some tearing and the tearing was meant to start to put a magnitude Factor on here where the amount of what you're asking us to consider on your behalf should be similar to or align with the magnitude of the benefits or offerings you're providing to us so that the trade-offs are obvious to the common reader and both the elected officials and those of us in these roles can have the debate with you about um what degree of magnitude We Believe versus what you're representing including um a financial impact um Cate started to do that a little bit yesterday I saw for the first time putting some tax roll Financial benefits out there what was that J they went through that the amount of taxes are going to be paying what portion of that would be to the town there were some Financial discrepancies on that because fire and uh schools and the library were included in there too they should have extracted those I would argue there's benefits to our town to have all those things paid for too and then they went on to talk about the permitting fees and the ongoing real estate taxes of a fully developed product so it was several millions of dollars you would expect with a um with a project of that size so in my document I tried to give some illustration ations around what tiering would look like and they should be in my mind sequential you have to meet the minimum tier one categories to get into the conversation about tier two we don't get through that and don't try to make your representation bigger than it ends up being through verbiage or other type of things and it goes down to actually quantifying um the financial benefit that the applicant believes the town is going to receive both initially and perpetually if they um if they get approval for what they're suggesting so um a couple things matter to me as we're setting the the guidelines here it is in my mind the responsibility of the applicant to prepare to provide to argue demonstrate and defend what it is they're representing to us on our behalf is something that they're making compelling argument around asking for us to give them something that they need on their behalf so I don't want the this the the the document of the conversation to slide too much to a prescriptive approach because that limit is cre creativity and it also slides the obligation to the town to defend you said you wanted this don't want to get there at all but somewhere between ambiguity and and prescriptiveness is important so that we can have a conversation around it I also was trying to protect the role that staff has in formulating an opinion on behalf of us let alone the elected officials I don't think it is their role to represent whether or not the public benefit threshold has been established met or exceeded although I do think they all have an opinion on whether or not the guiding principles have been met therefore the conversation's legitimate but I'd like that to be our conversation and our debate and our discussion I think that's what our role is here and clearly those elected by by the residents um should have a full bite that apple to see whether or not it's relevant to the community the way that the developers representing it so that's how my mind works in formatting these things putting a conversation around it um I guess in the end and I read through as I'm sure all of you do the public po that have been out there through Beach talk 32 pages of what public benefit is and what height is and all that and there's some um there's some natural conclusions one can extract from that first one is it's all over the place so so we're right where we start and therefore we should but if you AI it a little bit there's some common words in there and some other things that come right out at you and say we as a community believe anything you guys start to sentence with the public benefit needs to include these kind of things so there's some convergences in there so I'm very interested in the reaction to the format and the document where people feel that is a starting point and I'll close with this um this is one man's opinion it's a straw man um I don't hold any proprietary emotions around what was created here just that I believe form and format matters as I talked about so we could have a common conversation so we can obliterate this in any way we'd like to to come out with something better that our our group thinking Lees would help and then I'm very looking forward to the interaction with our elected officials so we can have symmetry around our job now with their job which is vetting what they're asking us to do before it comes to them for a recommendation and conclusion I'll close at that can I just make a statement yes please do yeah just uh couple quick things but one um I I like the idea of the um how do we how do we quantify public benefit and the uh the tax the tax benefit because I would wonder you know if we took that as one of our guiding principles and said what was there before and what did it produce and what is going to be there and what does it produce right and so in other words the Red Coconut produced probably you know probably a lot we couldn't quantify right if you have I don't know hund and some RVs on the island for several months and they're you know going to restaurants and they're going to uh to Shops and and doing what they do on the beach renting jet skis and Cabanas or whatever there's a there's something there right so what does this new project do if it's a residential community is that going to be the same as someone that is visiting right if it's a hotel or if it's a restaurant or whatever that is there there's all kinds of pieces that we could quantify right so I I love that idea of looking what was but but look a little bit further maybe and you may have thought this but just maybe I didn't read it or didn't say it but uh you know what was there before and what's the what's going to be there now and what's that going to do the other thing is um I think a public benefit I just wanted to make a statement as we start a public benefit is not something someone has to to quote unquote pay for access to in my opinion uh so if it's a um a private place but you can pay something to enter and i' I've struggled with this at Margaritaville right the the whole uh the pool pool because I originally thought oh that's a public wow that's I thought interesting if I were the developer or the general manager I wouldn't necessarily want it to be public that way the way it where it got to is you pay a fee to have access there is public access for a fee I can get my head a little bit more around that than I can a club or a restaurant that you have to pay an entrance to right if it's a private say exercise facility on the beach or a private dining room or bar to me those things are not quote unquote public for which you should receive some exchange of value the other thing is again just my opinion public benefits to me I mean like the The View Corridor great we should have that that should be fundamental uh to the extent we could get it beach access at least on each side of a piece of property should be fundamental other than that this is probably where I I might differ from others I kind of don't care to some extent what you do if you follow the plan or you're or you're close to the plan like and the height is obviously the elephant in the room right if you're allowed three floors above parking we all recognize things have changed if you're coming to us saying hey I'd like two levels of parking you know uh and I'd like you know four or five stories or something like that six stories whatever I don't know what the number is that's one thing but I think the other side of that is going the extreme and I certainly understand with some of these projects that it's kind of like let's see what we can get right and we'll you know we'll fall back we'll ask for the moon and maybe we'll fall back to you know something um just barely out of the at or in the atmosphere so those are just a couple thoughts that I had around um what we've already discussed and what's out here I you know if someone owns a piece of property and they want to develop it they want to develop it as the town was established I don't I don't think there's a lot of Need for other than the fundamental public benefits give me beach access give me Bay access give me you know whatever that might be if you're going to ask for setback changes or something maybe you know you give a little bit of public parking or something like that but those are kind of the fundamental thoughts I have around it but you know those are my at least my initial thoughts and opinions Doug well I think um in general and what I'm struggling with h too is a public benefit is like how many stories I want to build is a very specific quantitative thing I could say five stories above or six or 17 public benefit is a vague you know it's very hard to Define and I think we're I like the guiding principles uh that were presented but I think our challenge going in all of these is going to be to find that balance between um okay the public benefits so now we've got something that's sort of subjective we can't really you know we could say well one beach access equals something but um but a developer comes in and I understand how they work too and actually somewhat appreciate it he's going to ask for the most he might be able to get and he's going to offer the least you know in his first presentation and in my mind uh going back to our last meeting uh if you're going to ask for 17 stories maybe you should offer up the beach front or a portion of the beach front is a public park I mean make something real I mean substantial to justify a pretty substantial request but I think what we're going to see and we're going to have to like work together to get that balances we're going to developers are going to come in with the maximum ask and the minimum give and we're going to have to find a compromise and it's going to be difficult Jim a lot of your comments that you you submitted were kind of incorporated or could be incorporated into the other gyms format what are your thoughts uh I tried to uh approach it from an objective standpoint and I I see a difference between a public benefit and an amenity a public benefit to me needs to be Perpetual in nature um I also after seeing everything that's happened since our last meeting and looking at uh Jim's propos actually think that there are going to be benefits public dedications of property that are clearly um a public benefit but then there's going to be some um proposals that are jointly um a benefit to the public but also a benefit to the developer for example this roundabout it's an entrance to a parking garage but it is access to the beach so that sort of is a hybrid so maybe it doesn't count as much as something that is truly a public benefit in perpetuity um but I agree with staff and your earlier comment um I have a hard time reconciling the council's vote yesterday and the council's vote on Estero Beach Club and if I can't reconcile that then I think we need direction we're not the policy makers but we need a clear path to analyze these projects as they come John I agree with you J um so I think there's a commonality in what both of the gyms have put forward which was the teering the whether you call it tier one tier two amenity versus public benefit I think we can recognize that there's different classes of offer from a developer uh some that will be in their own self-interest and also maybe of benefit to the residents and the visitors to Fort Myers Beach um and I think there's some value to those the restaurant for example um obviously we heard loud and clear and those of us from the south end know that restaurants on the south end are a public benefit um but they're private Enterprise and so I think that they are of U when I think of it I think of the open to the public free of charge in perpetuity top public benefit whether that's a beach access which I think is easy but wonderful and we need as many them as we can uh I think it's access to the sand behind the property the mean high water line for example one of the things we talked about recently with the Seagate proposal was so what's going on with the beach behind the roundabout Park is that going to be Cabanas or is that going to be available to the public to me that's huge because that seems to be like the front line of beach access here in Florida not here in our community but further north it is and I think it's really important because when I think of Fort Meers Beach I think of it uh as an inclusive publicly available beach and yeah and to me that's you know along with the bars and the live music scene that's what defines Court Meers speech I mean it's the people and everything else but that's the culture to me um so so there's the Imp perpetuity available to the public free all of those things I think are critical they're the number one and then we get to the things that are uh of benefit to people like view corridors I love view corridors I really think they're important but it's not the same as having a piece of sand and then from there you go to uh well actually probably even ahead of that would be public parks that are Bayside or just not on the beach but public spaces that are available giving up land giving up access those things um and and then you then you back down and you start talk to talking about access to amenities that I think is the way that Jim put it is amenities or maybe the other tier and there's benefit to them M I also I think what's important to the conversation that Don and Jim have brought up is the economic impact on the island okay the viability of this island going forward is going to be very much driven by the investment that's made in this island right and I'm sorry but we have to talk about that we I don't have the history on this island that many of many people have and I try to learn from it every day but I do know know that downtown Margaritaville was blighted for over a decade it was not good and it was not good when I moved here and it's gotten so much better and actually my wife and I had dinner Sunday night at margaretville and it was awesome you know it really was so so economic development is also incredibly important but it but it doesn't of itself make a public benefit I think those other things of imp perpetuity of available to the public free access those things are really really important and then when we start to get to restaurants we start to get development we start to get things uh that that benefit both the developer as well as the residents I think they're important I think they're really important but they but they they don't quite add up the same level need one little quick comment um I was reminded and my document doesn't reflect this yet but I think just to get in lexon right now there also Al be a bias for uh our residents versus our visitors sure as it relates to because the more attractive it is to become part of this community in that way because you have access as that as that criteria category then we grow the people that really matter and those are the ones that are not only financially invested here but they're emotionally connected to it that way too so I I should have done a better job in my document outline that but I was reminded that it wasn't there and I just want to get that on the record I think that's a very good ad sorry Nancy so if this was a town council meeting rather than an LPA meeting I think council member King might be saying you can't always get what you want um but that isn't true because because councilman King has the cards in his hand I I'm I'm trying to just provide a little bit of levity and keep the conversation going um I have to also advise you that um you know there these um the whole concept of a development agreement is the fact that there is a project that's coming forward that is very unique yes and any project that comes to you requesting a development agreement has to be evaluated on a caseby casee basis right and at AK is our private um property rights that's right the rules that have been created in the resolution doesn't refer to a public benefit it refers to a special benefit and there may be a distinction there that we might want to further elaborate and discuss because um whenever you come forward you can't deal with two uh overriding Concepts as basically basically whether or not it constitutes a taking or not being an extraction from the developer you you can't go down that road because there is potential liability there so the benefits that are being derived should have some kind of Nexus to the development itself and courts have viewed that because of a Nexus that um it it doesn't constitute a taking although again it's factually based so I can't give you a definitive answer it's a caseby casee analysis as to what you're you're dealing with and the other legal concept that you want to be aware of is that you cannot engage in contract zoning right so you can't have this tradeoff one to the other and if you look at what was adopted in your resolution it talks about any special benefit it's not a required special benefits so any special benefit that results is a v untary act on behalf of the um owner applicant um and it does talk about a special benefit so I think your your uh task today is to elaborate upon that I mean it's been very widely discussed with lots of different concepts um I have not provided a legal opinion as to what you are finally putting on paper other than what we have currently in 2.16 so what you end up with I will need to go back and analyze it and review it to make sure that we are not crossing the threshold into perhaps some kind of uh deprivation of private property rights uh which would end up putting the the town at risk that's really really good advice at this juncture um two comments there are Supreme Court cases that have dealt with this already so I'm sure you'll pull those out I have them here too about where you don't create the Nexus therefore it's sit for that but the other side of it is consistency among applicants so what I'm hoping is is there is a Nexus around what our community wants what the developers understand and what they voluntarily offer therefore as something that matters to us and it shows through full disclosure they get it to be part of what ultimately we want in our community so I think the caution around don't get too prescriptive and don't take away what they can do anyway is wonderful the other side of that is let's amplify what we think's important and see how they rise to that occasion voluntarily precisely I agree and that discussion today I think is going to be very valuable um to the LPA to those that are watching to the Town Council to the community to developers um so I'm glad to have the conversation but ultimately what you propos today I'm still going to go back and review it analyze it make sure that you're not Crossing that threshold y do you not find a conflict or why was the word chosen because in in 4C it 4c4 it talks about uh the the height issue and public benefit but then the development agreement says special benefit so why do you I mean does anybody have a comment on what makes those two words different and why one was used over another I mean it would have seemed to me for consistency since the comp plan and the or the LDC talks about public benefit that the word public benefit would have been used and not special benefit in the development agreement um I'm not sure what the distinction is that's something I would go back and look at but if you recall the development approvals or this whole development review process was somewhat on a very fast track oh yes through the LPA um to the Town Council um and we have something we have a new tool in our toolbx but now the question is how do we use it and use it correctly um and so this is what we're we're trying to figure out at this point to me so we may want to change that I mean I I need to look at it and and that may be part of the recommendation is to amend the resolution to make it public benefit but I think special might be well I think the word special and the word public do have different definitions abolutely special is vager than public it BR it has an air of exclusivity to it so if it's if it's special to me that means something isn't special you know Don might be special and Jim might not be special you know the way I see but so to me they they they conflict with one another in the essence of what they mean now that could be just a ridiculous Nuance but all of this is nuanced and I think that this definition is really important one other thing I just wanted to ask you all because you all say well most of you said commented on in perpetuity uh one of the most important things to me and I'm only going to talk about a public benefit because I'm not particularly concerned with a special benefit a special benefit to me is a special benefit uh for for a a development they have a special benefit from the town or from whomever but I'm concerned about the public and so for the public to have a special benefit to me it needs to be exclusive to the public doesn't mean that the special people can't go there because they are also part of the public but it needs to be exclusively public so let's I'm just going to use the roundabout uh for my biggest objection to that was uh it wasn't a public park it was public could have some access to it but it was essentially uh access for the development so what what really became the the big public benefit for me I it it wasn't the walk over I mean it was a 10- foot easement was was essentially the only real public benefit I could come to so I think that what I liked well I liked all of Jim's talking points because I agreed with almost with all of them but I like the way Dunlap has formatted this because I think that the guiding principles are essential much like much like the goals of our comp plan they're essential and so like the first one accessible to or for the benefit of all that to me is public every public but then unique I mean it needs to be benefit for all and in perpetuity it shouldn't be because part of the development agreement at least that we reviewed that troubled me immensely was the ability for administrative changes so long as they didn't have something to do with density or whatnot but the public benefit didn't have anything to do with density but could be amended administratively and as we all know who have been here for any length of time the the I don't I want to say whim but whim is not whim is derogatory and I don't mean it that way at all the the feeling of administrations and councils change so they go from being very conservative to you know to ultra Ultra lenient and it would depend on where that would fall in here I I didn't like that that flexibility at all so if it is a public benefit much like I'll use from Margaritaville in my opinion had true public imp perpetuity dedicated public improvements and dedications the parking lot adjacent to the pool area was a dedicated piece of property for the town's use for public use and then the other parel that was also dedicated to the town that you nobody really thinks about but is instrumental into the realignment of the road coming onto the island those were dedicated imp perpetuity public benefits and to me that's the standard I mean at least in my opinion that's the standard it isn't just you can cut through through my backyard right that that is way down the list for me and I don't know how to um like I told you I was a little discombobulated today I don't know how to best memorialize that as a guiding principle I but I'm throwing that out there for you all to talk about and and one other thing the financial thing the FI the financial element so let's just say that Matt price had said uh this is what I want to do and and I'm going to dedicate the entire beach front to the public that would take it off the tax roll and so the financial element would be negative but the public uh Community benefit would be enormous so how do you balance that that's a question for the money people because it's not me um those are just my thoughts for the first round here Nancy back to your comment if I look at 4c4 which is what we're referring to that kind of started the the dialogue around the definition if I read the town Shel balance the public benefits I don't see that when I read that as a noun as a thing it's a concept uh it wasn't a requirement it wasn't a recommendation in order or or a threshold it just said they're going to balance it so I don't I don't think we're I think we're starting a new conversation versus building on that one at least that's how I personally read it um so whatever that means or doesn't mean and a little bit is around let's be nice to each other well what does that mean in New Jersey that's different than Ohio both in language and and behavior so there is some of that we get to make it ours we get to do a fort my Beast draft around what we believe and we care about and then you got to test it say are we really allowed to implement it correct and that's our role today yeah it's interesting the way you put that Jim because it doesn't say you get to do this it doesn't at all um does everybody agree with that 100% so the comment that there is a way for you to get from A to B is that true but if you if you challenged our Behavior a bit I remember sitting here with the IBC and being surprised that there was a requirement official requirement for view cords as a code violation or something I asked just Jason of the moment so somehow that became real and yet we see I've gotten some feedback that because we have so many view quarters right now you forget about Hickory Boulevard when you're driving down there but that doesn't seem to be much of a trade-off anymore in the open conversation of if you give us that we'll do this I mean it just seems to have diminished in its influence because it's required yeah and yet somehow that got in whether it's approved or ordained or just practiced now and I just don't think picking something like that is right Jason is it approved ordained or whatever because that did surprise me in that case as well yeah me too so I I take your point I would dispute that anything was forced upon that particular case and I would remind everybody that they chose to do that because they felt it work better for their site design um for the uh movement of their own people people on the property remember that the code itself the way that it is set up says you will have today 60 foot tall buildings from ground to the top of your building that's completely within code you're 20 feet above uh sea level and then you get an additional 40 feet above that by right so they they could have come in and said I want I want to run across 70% of my property 60ft tall buildings it's completely within code maybe I come ask you for an offset for the lower area um shielding but at the end of the day they could have chose that they chose instead to to try and show a public benefit uh that worked with their design and gave them something that was much more Compact and they were looking to then in my opinion spin that up as a justification for some of their other asks on the property so I think it goes back to your point today what what's the what's the view corridor worth how do we quantify what is inherently a qualitative thing um and how do we gauge that versus what they are asking for so one little additional reaction if you would Jason of course not for you personally but for the staff it seemed to me that during the conversation with our experts they clearly got the impression that would be very valuable for them to represent and include in the project so it does matter who you're talking to if I'm sitting and have a conversation Winston church only tells me so I'm going to think hey that's pretty cool stuff so here's a town who basically holds their future in in your hands if you're suggesting something I'm going to listen very carefully is that what the applicants are are are extracting out of the interaction I think the applicants came in and extracted that staff was saying this is something that's in the comp plan this is something that is mentioned as an alternative design metric in the LDC so it's been put in there in multiple different places and took that and staff said look if you're going to ask for a bunch of of deviations you've got to think really hard about how you're going to quantify your public benefit and up to that point staff had been hearing yes a open view to the beach is something that has been in uh both spoken word and meetings and and qualified in the code as something that was wanted so I I think they did take that and run with it I think it's also when you when you think about the specific projects that are coming up um the smaller the project the less opportunity there is for them to provide any sort of public benefit they just don't have the real estate to do it or you know it just isn't part of the project and so one of the things I took away from what Jason just said was that even if they're building by right and it's 60 feet tall we still would like to have some sort of view corridor and and it's it's in our code and I think there's value to it um but parameters they're not required not well they're no they're not required to have it but we do have bigger setbacks and we do have view cords being defined so they are required read you the language specifically so we're talking about it so um one of the things that might be helpful in to a joint meeting is to have a kind of a broader meeting on this I had um if we all have the same the same board members which is good for consistency's sake um but something that I've done when I've worked other places is done an explanation of how planning Works in Florida um the the state regulation and then the county and then how we function here I can find that to be very helpful for the general public because people planning is a very specific profession and there there's also a lack of understanding we hear that constantly well why don't you just build according to the comp plan build according to the code and those things are different every place and they function slightly different but we all have you know in Florida we have framework which we abide by so there's the the comp plan which the town should set out it its goals and objectives policy of how they're going to get to those goals and objective and then the comp the the LDC the zoning is the tool of implementation for the plan so you come up with the plan what we want what our goals are and then the the Land Development code should tell you exactly how we're going to get there this many feet this wide it's very prescriptive from a staff perspective it should be easy to read and and interpret that's way everybody gets the best result so if I could if I could just read you the language that's actually in the Land Development code just so you understand where staff is coming from and when a developer comes in any Savvy developer who's done things multiple places they have somebody on staff whose job is to read this code to read the comp plan um and these people are very famili familiar with these documents even if the town itself you know the the general public is is not um so this is section 34- um 631 um and that's where we're talking about the height um and then specifically so it goes through the the the height you're allowed by right um which and by right generally means you don't have to come before the LPA you can go right to the development order stage get your building permit and go ahead and build without any kind of special sorry Judith could you say the number again I'm 34 63 D 631 got it so that's Building height and then if you go down a uh five B5 okay so this is where it's telling you if you can't build what you want to do by right in those few cases where individual Parcels of land so skip through that height regulation chapter would be unreasonable land owners May seek relief through the plan development resoning process so that's what you're seeing a lot of these property owners are saying well we the the first floor now we've got to have it raised so we have to do parking there or or something else and then we're restricted in height above that um which may seek relief through the plan development rezoning process which requires a public hearing and notification uh the town will approve modify or deny such requests after evaluating the level of unfairness again a bit of an ambiguous word unfairness that would result from the specific circumstances and the degree of the specific proposal conform the degree the specific Proposal conforms with all aspects of the comprehensive plan including its land use and design policies pedestrian orientation and natural resource criteria particular attention would be paid to any permanent view corridors to Gulf or Bay Waters that could be provided in exchange for allowing a building to be taller than the height limits of this chapter in each case the town shall balance again the public benefit of the standard height limits against other public benefits that would result from the specific proposal so it's they've taken the language of the comp plan they've added a little bit more in there but that's what why you're you're seeing these things because the the the developers the builders are reading that and they're saying okay they want to view corridor we're going to give them a view corridor and so when they come to us they already know this mostly um and then they're they're trying to and and I completely agree with Mr DL that this kind of ambiguity should not be handled at the staff level no that's not appropriate but what happens is is that they come and they say what do you think they're going to approve what what what what can we do we really want this what can we do and we'll say well we don't we don't know or uh maybe you should watch some of the the past meetings and see what other kinds of public benefits have been acceptable because we we don't want to be in the business of negotiating that that is something that the LPA and the Town Council should be doing if you think that's appropriate but I just want to let you know the The View Corridor it's there so they're saying okay that's we know what that is that's easy to Define whereas some of the other things we you're talking about restaurants or this is an easy thing they can put it on a site plan and they can measure it out and they know exactly what the the reduction in in in buildable space and they can quantify that so so Nancy that's a specific item that they trade for a specific request can we put 15 more things like that in that same section because your concern before was this intersection right but then it it would if you added to your LDC Your Land Development code then that would I believe uh conflict with the language in your comp plan because your comp plan only talks about um view corridors so right now the two are together they are consistent one with the other and where we are in the process right now the comp plan is still open we would very much from a staff level like to have that completed and and sent back to the state they already did the first round the state accepted it so now the the town has to ratify it and that's what we've been talking about with the Town Council about setting up some public meetings getting some public input um if you listen to the very end of the meeting yesterday Sarah was asking that um about going to events like the the Christmas tree lighting or other things that are coming up to try to get public feedback not everybody feels comfortable coming to a town council meeting that could be a little intimidating and trying to get that feedback but we have to close the loop on the comp plan process before we can touch the LDC so I did want to make one comment that the very first line of that section says in the few cases where individual Parcels of land are so surrounded by tall buildings on lots that are uous yes that's very specific being in the middle of the South End not it is it is so and then there's the other question about is a view corridor must it be unimpeded because there's the constant discussion about a parking lot is not a view corridor trees so what is that to us now a pool trees I landscape yeah an elevated pool perhaps Landscaping I have a question though on EBC specifically Jason you mentioned we could go you know 60 ft High we could cover that parcel at 70% Call It Whatever if they had did that big box big ugly box right 75 units I want nothing more than I had before which is pretty close to what they're doing um could they have been denied because there's no View Corridor or would they had to would the would the town go no we're going to squeeze you a little bit to get the view corridor and you can go up a floor or something like that is that I'm I'm trying to figure out out if that's the the a tradeoff you know I I think that's actually a wonderful question because the the reality is no I don't think the town could have squeezed them what they could have done and this is allowable in the code is if they chose to for instance tier the building and give further setbacks on floor three through 10 right in in that respect they would have been offered the option to go back and be able to get an additional floor a few extra feet to complete an additional floor but again the the the staff and the code doesn't force you into that there is a reality where you end up with 60 foot buildings across 70% of the property um by writing they're just writing into do that's we have to be careful because I remember distinctly unless I dreamed it or something but the need of you specifically and others of us saying hey when they first came to us hey you know make this a little more aesthetically pleasing like it looks like a big kind of you know walking down the street and it's right on the street you know they had kind of what maybe they could have done right and then we said go back and fix this and they went back and fixed it and I thought made it look really good and then now I'm thinking well if I'm eibc or those designers I'm thinking gosh instead of I can't remember what it was 10 stories maybe I should have did you know the step up and then did three towers on that property you know single wide and then I give you your view corridor you get a Aesthetics and I'm just trying to we got to be careful what we ask for because you know I think someone said councilman king would say you can't have it all right or you can't have everything you want or so what is View Corridor what is it is it on the edges because you can't have the setback you know you don't ask for anything what is it to you Jim um to me it's a concept it is where you have an option or opportunity an example I give you is a parking structure under the facility we require they block the fug cor so I think that's in Conflict so I would say as open as possible it's better for the cars running in there and all kinds of things it's better for the public and they use the one Crossing Publix and all that all the time to say you can see right out you can't see much but you can see more than if you didn't so I think it's where opportunities exist to have line of sight CLE clean line of sight and I'm not talking about uninterrupted because that's not I don't think realistic whether it's cars or vegetation Etc but you don't have mass blocking light uh views and and it just makes you feel more restricted as as a as a person wherever that can be open and be clear for multi-purposes I think our attempt should be to create view corridors that are can be multi-purpose but they're unencumbered for the General Public from A View so yeah general public so that's really on the street right that's me standing at my eyesight so from you know a little you know a little kid to the tallest adult right can see right in other words if I have a house across the street you know it's not a view corridor or say there's a hotel across the street or or a restaurant it's not a view corridor because I I can go up three stories and have a a balcony that looks over and has a view corridor right that's really not a public it's really not a view corridor it's really on the street you know to I have a problem with that I really do because personally this is only my opinion but in my opinion A View Corridor goes up to the sky so not underneath the building type of view even though I may be walking down the street and and enjoy a view out to the Bay or the beach to me it's it's the entire up to I don't know how else to put it but it's it's to infinity and beyond it's if I could add to that though like because you're not going to get you you require parking underneath as to your point that's a conflict you're not going to get a continuous View Corridor on the road so that's where I think a view corridor can be you know between the buildings you know down the street down the beach access it can be under the building it could be that the the building goes 60 ft and then because it creates value AC across the street right there's value in property which means value to property tax there's value in building a restaurant over there with a you know with a a be a a beach whale type restaurant where they can see the gulf right for Sunset but all those there sorry I didn't to tr no no I just saying I think to your point you know there's that view corridor it might be blocked on the ground but three stories up it could be open it's the neighborhood's objection to seate right exactly yeah it is precisely that so yeah it feels to me like there's a like I always use the word balance or you know but it feels to me like there's something there to say hey across the street this property you know eibc for instance you know that's commercial property across the street you know that could be more valuable to another developer to come in and purchase and build but you see both can be true and isn't that the magic of putting the onus where it belongs to the developer to say not only am I going to let you look through here but I'm also going to create something that lets the sunshine in all the way to and if you give all that gets to count in the degree of magnitude they come to us with trying to make their case that's the magic I think and what we put out to them to do their job to show us that that both can be true and I'll say on Seagate I think Seagate had an opportunity I the the thought was leave the beach side you know for public benefit that I buy into or whatever it is but you know there could could have been something to that there you know there could have been units put over there you know that still still left the shot of the you know might be obstructed across the street so you might not get as much out of those fourth or fifth floor condos but you know there there are you know other what were you say I'm wondering if we could Define a view corridor um something like this like uh we have setbacks already side setbacks and part of that reason we have those is for views but if you're going to say well I'm providing a view corridor I'm going beyond that setback I'm the The View cor I'm providing is an additional 20 feet to the setback I would have had to do anyway right and then my view corridor uh Florida ceiling has got one value uh but if the percentage of that Florida ceiling that I obstruct decreases the value of my view corridor by proportionately you know some sort of guidance like that to Define well you know like like came up on seates like well View Corridor yeah but you had to have parking anyway you know so it's not really you're not doing something special you know so I think um I think what we're reaching for is when a developer makes a special effort above and beyond what would have had to do anyhow to create a view corridor and there's the magnitude issue that I think I feel passionate about I don't mind those descriptions at all there's a great criteria for starting and making it bigger than you had to I don't want that instead of all the other things we could get to the view quarter stuff and how they arrang the pool and how they set that up that having definition is clearly a magnitude issue having flexibility shows a I think a commitment issue to us that not only am I doing this but I'm doing these three other things make your cas so I could I would like both because it gives us some magnitude Jim do you have something to add to this I just summary is I think View Corridor should be an unimpeded view of the either the beach or the bay um and it should be something more than what is required uh by code yes that's what I've written down here almost almost exactly I wrote the View Corridor should be an open clear line of sight vertically and horizontally uh to open space beyond the existing required setbacks does that Define View Corridor yeah the only thing I would say is beyond the setbacks but it could be within the property too right I mean it could be yeah yeah it could be right in the middle right or it could be like I mentioned on EC it could be two could be two down the property they say hey we're creating these we're giving you an extra 5 foot on each side and we're giving you another you know 15 foot in between magnitude thing is way big important for me yes how committed are you y me too uh does that give you an idea yes I was just going to say and you're saying not necessarily Public Access right it's not necessar access it's my eyes access it's for me to see yes okay do we want to just talk for a second that came up yesterday like three feet wall to elevate the pool is does that detract from the view view corridor um uh not as not as it's been talked about here because if as you're walking down the beach if there's a three- foot wall and you have a clear view of everything else it doesn't that three foot wall is not going to bother I I agree but we start talking about magnitude does a 5- foot wall the way does a six foot wall get in the way yes it does so so yesterday it came to I think 2 or 3 ft is okay that's what was kind of bounced around and I agree with it but I think we should yeah either agree with it or not as well like what do we think do we think it's three or 4 feet is that okay three max because I don't think you I mean the way the properties go you know even when I think of our condos down there I mean there's no flooding at the building a lot of times because it's around it it slopes up to the building so if you had a three-foot wall by the building you would not see any sand or golf probably You' just see Skyline yep you do actually if you walk by down there that's all you see yes yes that just you know you've been to my house I have a six foot fence the fence looks much taller because my yard is sloped up yeah you know yeah that's a good point so do we solve that with simply with saying a clear open line of sight uh I think ler site is good right I do too no problem okay so what about public and special or benefit versus amenity so my reaction public and special would be um public is um public is extremely General somebody drives on the island special is to whom and in what context and again since I think we all live in the real world um the definition of why this is special or should be to me I want somebody to tell me that because I may not I may miss the obvious and I want to be convinced I heard you say at our last meeting I'm listening please convince me and that's a wonderful delicate professional way to say I'm not getting there on my own so if you have something I haven't heard or thought of then give me the insights on that because I'm willing to adjust but you got to make me feel special and I think that's the difference to me between public and special I could see um um I hope I want to hear that after Doug I want to hear from an yeah um so I don't know this might be a little simpler than what Jim's saying but like a public benefit I'm going to uh dedicate a certain width 15 ft for a public beach access anybody can use it visitors can use it my own my own constituents can use it um it's in perpetuity that's a public benefit a special benefit might be I'm going to open my Beach Club to not just the residents but outside people they're going to have to pay just like anybody else but it will be open that might be defined as a special benefit but it's not really a public benefit I agree completely I agree completely so that was like H because to me a public benefit is imp perpetuity it is public public no par for Resident could be somebody lives in Indiana anybody who wants can walk down that path it is open it's open completely but then the special benefits which is why I find that so conflicting in the development well think about a special benefit as being the discount that Margaritaville provides to Residents that is special specialit for residents yes yes yes we all agree with that yeah Nancy you got that the monetary benefits I'm not certain how enforcable that is um it could doesn't have to be monetary it could be people who live on St Peters are allowed like like a like the the accesses that certain neighborhoods have yeah the D to beach access the D to beach access that that's not necessarily monetary but it is specific access for a specific purpose in perpetuity be a special benefit that's a special benefit to me okay because it only benefits a certain group of people Mountain park access is any of them any of them okay the mound house is public anybody and their dog can enjoy a walk at the mount house but a neighborhood park is not is a special benefit to that neighborhood but could not a resident from another neighborhood access that Park as well no technically they can but they shouldn't if somebody's standing there yes they're able to you could walk through there but that is not your park it belongs to somebody else it's like could somebody walk through my yard yes should they no it's my part it's my yard maybe not a park but a beach access for example very a well there's a difference um because because the beach access would be available to the public regardless of where you live no there are some beach accesses that are yeah allocated to a specific subdivision correct where a general Public's not supposed to use them okay so with that said though how does that fall within the definition of special benefit that is currently a special benefit is something that is designated for a specific group of people okay so what you're proposing would be a change to the definition in 2.16 um yes because then that would be consistent with the comp plan LC right a smaller subgroup of the public or a subgroup a a group period I mean public is wide open special closes that so that is different from what is current written however know um I mean affordable housing is is in there that might be specific to a smaller subgroup those that are able to acquire a residency right within that project yeah I would see that is a special benefit it's a good benefit I'm not demeaning it but it would be a special benefit you had a comment on special I mean I I think that makes that makes sense to because that's what we're seeing being offered so in that maybe we tear it like that across the board I'm looking at Nancy to see if that's possible but like you have a definition of public benefit that's very clear what you've said something that's in perpetuity open to all general public like a beach access path like a public park I think everybody can understand what that means and then this the additional special benefits is a restaurant because you're going to you're going to pay to go to the restaurant people like them they they want to have them but it's or um something that's limited by the the fees or the cost um so like the affordable housing you have to qualify through a program and so that's going to be limited through the whatever government program they're going to access that through or limited to certain HOA um that so let's let's test our language then let's go to the tier two list I have here and let's try to bounce these against special versus public and see if our definitions um those are natural for us to put some categories on there I do think you can tear that within the public I think that's the next step here actually of course so run down those in need let's see how everybody feels about which category they see it falls into on soer two those public benefits with significant financial and CommunityWide impact Beyond those adjoining and or complimenting the development itself this category should include granular description and specific details on the community wide impact or benefit infrastructure for example as well as the projected Financial investment or dollar value equivalent for any in-kind Services being proposed and then there are examples um beach access improvements could include design permitting construction uh beach access with facilities that include public restrooms and showers so let's pause on that and see how people feel which category yeah I would say that's a public that's a public public perfect this is definitely public this is helpful for us to practice language absolutely offsite public parking garage I think that might be a public I think it would fall into public myself once again though it's public but it's something that is commercial so I'd like to separate public being public and not commercial that's I feel is because public would be a free parking garage or or potentially a parking I'm going to build this parking garage I'm going to the town of Fort Meyers me beach has a Perpetual lease to charge parking and generate revenue for the town that's a public benefit it is a public benefit but if it's I'm building a parking garage and you the public can park here but I'm going to charge you yes that's a difference so we could redefine special maybe special free for residents parking free for residents in this space or two floors reserve for res whatever we want to do this is where the nuances really matter and this is where we challenge the creativity of the presenters to say and here's how I'm making it for you right so here's where you could you could take it a step further just to put this out there um if the community wants a parking garage and I'm not sure whether we want that but if we do what you can say is that this is a a goal of of the town we we want to have a town owned parking garage and then the benefits would be uh maybe in the off seon it's free to residents or maybe if a hurricane is is coming we allow residents to park on the upper levels you know for free there you you you could organize that in a way but if you define the parking garage as a goal that the town is trying to meet and asking the developer when they when they come in as part of that to contribute to X number of parking spots because we think that they're going to need additional parking that's not provided there so for example with the the public park that's being offered um there's no parking for the public park well maybe the developer contributes X number of parking spaces to the the pot of money that the town is saving to build the public parking so you're creating a Nexus this is back to nany's point between the actual development what we think it might need and then what the the town's goal is if we've stated that outright that our goal is to build this and lots of communities do this you each parking spot is worth $20,000 and that's what we need you to contribute and we're going to put it in a in escrow or in a fund whatever for the parking garage and when the town gets enough money and we've identified land then we build it so as a as a public benefit yeah it'll it'll well in perpetuity you know structures how have lifespans but you know it'll be belong to the town as opposed to a parking garage that belongs to a private developer where we have to make agreements about who can park so how would you characterize if they said we're going to create a lot or a garage whatever it is being and all our employees are going to park there and we're going to shuttle them on the beach so that there's no traffic coming over the bridge which categor is that go in for you if somebody of magnitude chooses to do that if they're putting that garage off Island and they shuttle their employees in so there's no traffic the problem from a staff perspective is how do we monitor that how do we enforce that how do we make sure because that it's a good idea but then they're going to have to purchase that land offsite we don't have any control over what that looks like how what the zoning rules of someplace else is going to be or in effect how it's used or and how it's used and we don't know well somebody you know they decide to there's no way to I'm just thinking about it from an enforcement perspective how we enforcement okay um I think from a town perspective the you know what thinking about what we can control um we we do have town policy the dra is the the right acronym yes Drive don't run right so that's a great I idea and program as far as I know there's no we don't check on that we don't know what kind of impact it has long term so just thinking about it because From staff's perspective we like Clarity exactly you know what we can what we can count what we can identify what we can control so I think I think the the parking garage has got too many elements to it um you know this came up the off-site parking came up with Margarita bill this is this is well all right so what about Workforce housing I think I think I know you can't say the word affordable but housing that um you know folks working on the island can afford is uh attainable housing is a yeah is a to me it's a it's a it's not a public benefit I think it's a special benefit well it's a special benefit to the employee it's a public benefit on an alteristic scale because it helps us staff our employ all of our restaurants and hotels and everything it's it's a benefit to the property owner or business owners balance because you may not be able to attract people to drive on the island unless you pay them double what you'd have to otherwise pay them if they could live five minutes from and they could ride their bike to work and maybe help School population exactly so it's special in nature I think so yes special yeah I would I would rank that special even though there's secondary or spin-off public benefits that we can imagine sure you can't require people to have children that live in them but boy that's a that is a that is a public benefit to keep Beach element populated it's aspirational it is sure yes um relocation and conversion of above ground utilities to below ground utilities public I think that's a public benefit I think that could be seen as a public absolutely a public benefit it's absolutely a public benef see how easy this is I would think most most infrastructure anything is going to be a public benefit yeah sidewalks uh pedestrian access landcap undergrounds uh visible landscapes for all public stops so that's that's the last one on On's list here is any significant improvements to um to public infrastructure um but what about um that are not code required yeah above and beyond C above and beyond what code would require um so go I sure wish we could just call a sidewalk a sidewalk instead of a linear Park do you know many people have asked me what's a linear Park is that for skaters that was that was a question yesterday for me it's a sidewalk for heaven's sakes um construct open space malls that are pedestrian oriented and streetscapes as gathering places for the general public wa this is aspirational for sure um got a dream and you know what if if that if that well I'm just thinking about the Arches project that that this would come into play there and I would consider that a public benefit I would too I I I beg to differ okay because with the Arches I really loved the fact that they were going to do that Baywalk Etc but it was completely a commercial Enterprise and although the public had access to it it was strictly for profit so it once again becomes a tier different from that in my mind that top deer yeah I yeah I I don't I don't disagree other than I could go walk through that Park and not spend a dollar yeah or a dime good point so good point and see the B absolutely access if I lived in the neighborhood behind there I could you know I would find that a benefit if I lived in the neighborhood because I could I could go walk that every night and look at the day you you've convinced me Don because you're right I didn't have to pay for access to it the other thing I would say is um I weigh those choices against the Alternatives having that open versus building up to the water Andor doing other enclosed structures there that to me is a public benefit and it would be attractive in the overall requests they have to have that kind of optionality because we don't have much of that at all here where you can walk along the water that is in sand and sometimes you just want different shoes yeah and if if uh exactly and I I I think that good point on the Arches the alternative is a marina where I will never go walk along the water because it's not as pleasant right and I don't have access because there's a fence around it because it's private property it's closed after dark right or whatever yeah no you convince me okay yeah I would agree I think that's a public uh spaces open to the public attractive spaces even if they're a commercially motivated but if they're open to the public and that's where I think LPA Town Council we all have to be open to change because change could be good in that particular instance again if there's a lot of other factors to that one but if somebody well Seagate if seate actually we can't because there's mangroves but if Seagate was building a you know that was Public Access benefit to me even if there were you know food carts there right or if there were benches and there was a walkway that I could walk on the water maybe get the the ferry or the taxi there the water taxy there to The Preserve yeah I mean that's a to me that is if it's truly Public Access you know you can have a 3ot wall along your development your however many story buildings you have but if I have Public Access there to me that that is a that is a benefit they all sit okay and what about Jim this this just says fairy to me create an underwrite an islandwide pedestrian friendly transit system oh I have I think Fair's included but I have many other ideas around that so we can we can debate that out um there are services that exist today in Beach communities um in particular where you have congested traffic that corporations or non-for-profits colleges campuses hospitals can underwrite and the entire Transportation U micr transportation is at no cost to the users and that is a significant public benefit in my mind absolutely um and it's door to door yeah um that I can give you more definition around that outlines around that it exists it's tested it's profitable it's all the things you want it to be but it is a change I have not heard anybody talk about something like I can go into great detail with that in another setting and we can talk about how you want to debate that but I have um the information we need to get that into lexicon anytime you want to do it what do you all think absolutely I want to learn more yes so do I and I agree exists I've seen it it works and it's just a matter of having to take the and we have access to it yeah right we can do that okay so the only thing that we took out of well we took out quite a few we we took the so for tier 2 public benefits with significant financial and CommunityWide benefits we wanted to redefine parking garage um we made develop Workforce housing with special and everything else here was public totally public here she comes so so one of my questions is so as you were all were discussing I was looking at the language that you currently have in your procedural rules for development agreements again these are like hot off the press um so the 2.16 is a description of any special benefit I'm thinking that maybe you might want to just add or public benefited because it seems like you're you're drawing a distinction between the two absolutely a distinction okay so instead of eliminating that add it add it that's a good idea that is what I'm hearing good idea but but I also want to point out that in 2.16 um it does talk about hurricane recovery which in a way it kind of relates back to what you were talking about with underground utilities that is related to Hurricane recovery in the long term um you know being able to um mitigate damage from perhaps future storms so so there is still a little bit of an overlap between the two concepts so in your procedural rules as far as development agreements I think adding special or public that way you don't require them to draw the distinction in the agreement ever if they're going to go for height they have to draw the distinction then then we're looking at changes to perhaps your comprehensive plan or Your Land Development code where you want to be a little bit more specific what what I really like about that and you guys all know my biases now um at least in this topic is I was gonna say I don't know they then they got then they have to come and further granular Define within that category they're choosing it is and I love that conversation so I like your approach a lot mhm oh it's it's not mine it's what I'm hearing from you guys thank you for translating translating our discussion run for that record yeah yeah turn Okay so another thing that uh has been brought up a few times now is the difference between a benefit and an amenity and I think this is where the discussion about restaurant comes in because so many people have debated is a restaurant a public benefit so is it a public benefit is it a special benefit does it fall into our special benefit think it falls into the special benefit special benefit yeah if it's not a private restaurant that I have to pay to go eat at you know that's one thing if if it's a restaurant that's there I think there is a special benefit to that and I and I definitely think there is back to being a a southy like John uh you know that's that's a benefit that everyone I think needs uh or or feels like they need I think we could say would it be fair to say like any amenity is falls into the special benefit category just by the way it's well the reason it's not I may not have access to seates pool or or hot tub or spa or steam development what yeah that's an amenity for the development so um you want it to be special to us and give us access to it yeah and under what conditions yeah but access will be limited to 75 people right that pay yeah and I think that is a restricted I think that's a restricted very restricted special benefits and I would throw it out of the special benefit category or public benefit category I would say hey that's nice you know do it or don't right that's your that's your right but you know as a as a developer or you know property owner but he's a much more chatty in person isn't he seems to be we have his full attention very hard to interrupt on the screen TV screen go good to have you here okay so we've defined that was helpful by the way thank you for oh gosh very helpful um so we know what a benefit is versus an amenity do you all know what a benefit is versus an amenity a benefit is a public or special V benefit an amenity is to me amen an amenity is something that is for the use of of the people who belong to the club that's an amenity right I mean but what's a public amenity is well I don't even know that we need to Define that no I'm okay so the public V benefit versus Enterprise I had that in there and that was that was mostly discussed relative to the um relative to restaurant and so restaurant has now fallen fall falls into the special benefit um so should we make should we make a list of what we think I mean Jim you did that of what you thought examples of public benefits are or is that helpful I think it would be helpful if we could make a list of public benefits special benefits as examples to help developers age to as just examples as but only as examples only as examp not as a definition but as an example to help developers understand the kind of things that we see as a public benefit which has a higher rating than a special benefit which has a higher rating than what's just really an amenity that they might have provided anyway so back to Judith's uh representation which was if we know what the town wants then we know what to put on our list so make sure the applicants get exposed to those priorities and desires very early on the process um we've got a role LPI official role we're not the final role but we can create that list both under the criteria it's not exhaustive but it also may not be the right ones no that need to be vetted with the public that say I get why that's nice but I live in the real world right now and I need this so if you're gonna and then we're going to get into ranking we have to be careful about ranking because they want value to apply to them I don't think we should so it would be impossible to be all inclusive it can I open up something else just um I'm not sure if this is the appropriate time if it's after the ranking but I it's mentioned in there as part of hurricane recovery and um blight getting rid of blight is their public benefit to that in it of itself and that's a slippery slope you know I think blight at this particular moment in our history is subjective because there are so many people who love the open space on the island and others that would say well that's blight that's blight that's why I say it's a very slippery slope but it's something that is referenced and um undeveloped land is not blight but buildings that are dilapitated are blight that to me is blight i' say maybe we could Define blight as any structures or buildings that fall below our code standards or or in disrepair or something like that but I I think we have to be careful not to be subjective yeah if we could find that I think that would be important because so how do we make that actional because we're watching forensically what the town's trying to do with property owner rights and blight and it is an arduous process and one that can be interrupted with nothing more than filing to permit not moving on that so if you're talking about a developer Comm in saying I'm taking I'm buying this property to eliminate these issues um they're going to do that with the property whether it's an advantage to us or not because they're not consistent with development I would struggle with having a broader category like that in and let them make an argument that we're getting rid of blight because it's not happening now you're not doing that altruistically no you're doing that as a demolition process yes yes and not only that but uh getting rid of blight should be something that the code enforces there you go you know so I we could all put tags on all the spots on the island right now that we go why is that still there why why is it still standing um yeah so I don't know how to handle that element that John's bringing up that's in there um it's it is subjective um so so let's leave it alone let's leave it alone especially if you're talking about dilapidated buildings because there is a process in place there a I don't think it is vague I think there's a legal definition in the code well so it's unsafe buildings and UNS structures the term blight generally comes to us from from Federal Regulations about Redevelopment and how we qualify for redevelopment money and there's pretty loose uh definition of that and then people get very defensive when you refer to their property as sure you know especially if they don't see it that way um but we do have the town does have a process in in place um as I said it's longer because we have to go through um the the process because people have property rights so it's not something that's troubling you I don't think so especially because when you're when you're being sent a project to Mr D's Point you're being brought a project they're intending to redevelop it so they would have to necessarily demolish what yeah I think we should just eliminate blight as a concept as far as public or special benefit because it's going to be addressed other ways or as part of the development project anyway so just I don't think a developer can say well I'm eliminating blights is a benefit I think that that's not valid isn't the the clear argument that perhaps there's no economic benefit to the community of those structures facilities and entities so I'm going to create an economic Revenue stream as a result of clearing out those nonproductive ones that actually are negative nonproductive we have to pay to get them and getting nothing yes so to me that's the argument perhaps they ought to be making and it is a form of blight when there's no contribution but there's a drag on the community right but it doesn't necessarily put that in conversation come into play when you're seeing a project you're you're absolutely correct um but when we get to this stage of the process the developer already agreeing to to develop exactly right so it is a benefit I 100% agree it is a benefit to have that back on the the tax rooll and provide the the service to the community of whatever they're going to do but I don't know what how is there the benefit that gains them anything no but is at this point in the process yeah but isn't there a scenario where maybe somebody's a little too aggressive when they acquired a property and they said gosh we can do X Y and Z and they learn at some point we can only do you know X and then the property sits or gets sold for a loss and you know what I'm saying I mean it can happen corporations do it I've seen them so I'm just saying there is an extreme there that you know that we could push to right and we want to be careful to keep that balance this is why we recommend before you buy a property you come and talk to and do what we call a zoning a verification letter where we tell you exactly what you can and can't and what all the rules are totally agree but it doesn't happen and a pre it does not happen that that onus is on the abely and the property owner not I mean the town has already we have our services available for that reason most everything will get developed at some point in time but it's a matter of you know is there a is there a an extended period of time where there's a lot of swirling for years and then it gets sort of which what everyone's afraid of right exactly and we may get off time because obviously this is this one's the squishy one we've dealt with so far but there are um Financial motivations that are available we all know about loss Carri forwards how you do your equities well same thing happens with property right if the property remains damaged unproductive and unimproved but sitting on a very valuable piece of land unoperated can be soon as they scrape it that land becomes taxable at that base line they no longer have any losses against the damaged building to offset the the um taxes so I'm sure nothing suspicious like that's going on in our Island but there are buildings sitting around that have not been scraped and they still show different on the asset liability of that Corporation than they would if they were scraped because now it's a valuable piece of land with an incumbent Financial requirement so getting at this matters because it eliminates a bad motivation too so what's your recommendation don't have one just making sure that you heard about boy I heard you loud and clear but you know the same thing holds true though a mortgage even in foreclosure is an asset but if it's real estate owned it's a liability you go so um yeah I don't know that we can really go yeah we got leave it alone it'll be it'll be an argument it's going to be hard to find so then one last piece before we go on to furthering list I think you want to do is I want to have my the other conep challenged here by the team that it was important to me that somebody represent um the financial impact of these items that we put in here so if they're going to acquire land I think they ought to let us know what they paid for that and of course we can find that out they're going to make other Investments um I just don't think it ought to be nebulous and only taken for granted that it is what it is I think the the applicants ought to have a challenge to quantify it and we have the opportunity to challenge their conclusions um because that does for me and it's a financial guy put the rubber on the road that you spent this did this invested in this uh donated to this uh volunteered to this all those things are quantifiable um to our community because the alternatives for that is we doing them ourselves are not being done at all so I'd like to hear the team's reaction to putting the numbers around what they represent as some of these public benefits to see how that tracks can you give me me a little more detail on that concept so like use give me some more detail so Margarita build donated a piece of land yes which we could put a value on what was that worth yeah um we we could they could mathematically um extend what 25% discount to average users both the adrs in their hotel and with their restaurants that's quantifiable it's a projection but it's quantifiable you can go that the entire margar real Bill thing and put a financial outcome on what this town is gaining perpetually as a result of that approach right that's the example I would give you and there are Civic organizations looking for funding to rebuild their places and if you said you know you know come to this island you know we want to be part of the community and we're going to we're going to help fund the Art Association and the women's foundation and you know uh to the tune of for the L right for this much money for this amount of time for 10 years check that box and then you you know ensure that it actually occurs it doesn't that touch on contract zoning that I don't know that seems I I like I like the thought process but where does that I don't I don't know where that fits um I I don't have an answer to your question well it sounds like these are impact fees well yeah these aren't required no yeah um so there currently is a process in place um whenever we adopt opt an ordinance we do a business impact estimate um and that's required by Florida law in the past uh land use uh decisions have been excluded from that process but I believe there's a recent statutory change where we would have to start doing those um so we're checking right now that that requirement may actually satisfy and answer some of the questions that you all are raising okay Jason you're nodding your head do you have something to add to that that's yeah we're just confirming so right now on the town website under the ordinance page WE Post those business impact estimates for every ordinance that's proposed um a lot of them are exempt but we're still posting those anyway uh so those are available for public our public visibility anytime on our ordinance page what would be exempt for example uh so as Nancy said I think some Planning and Zoning if it's just following State statutes that sort of thing there's and on that business impact estimate it'll have what the reason why it's exempt but we're still filling those out um just to be proactive on our part too but what Jim and Don are talking about is a way step above that sure it's in it's granular it is it needs to be defended but if could I ask a question maybe for Nancy back to the contract uh zoning so Seagate for instance cross the street from Seagate is the Art Association property if seate said I'm going to rebuild the Art Association I'm going to pay for that building not going to fit it or anything I'm just going to build the structure and I'm going to put a you know a million dollars at it or whatever is that contract zoning or is that a going to be with the Art Association that would be their private agreement that they have I yes but if he says that in the course of his if he had because he has not said that if he had said that in the course of his public hearing saying and you know something else I'm going to do is block this is adjacent to my property one of the properties I'm going to affect potential by building a 17 story building is that a I'm trying to figure out is that a that's a that's a Civic 5013c organization I think so yeah I don't I don't think that the town is really involved in that specifically unless we're considering that action as part of our approval process and I'm just trying to figure out can we could that be a we allowed to question so um no okay no um what you would be requiring is the local government to contract with a not for profit as a re requiring a rewarding and I go to Vice mayor's conversation yesterday was extensive around the art group was clear connection to me when wake not not or have a conversation and the president of the Art Association come up and acknowledg the conversation's happening and it mattered to him matters to me so requirement versus the acknowledgement I think are different things but they're powerful things they are powerful oh yeah so I guess they're valuable to the community sorry they're valuable no they are they're very valuable to the community so I guess my question would be you two are saying this very passionately uh where else does this happen and is there something that we could formulate that to say Hey you know this is this is another criteria that we'd like to look at and address how are you going to impact the overall community and in a way that it is legal for us to do so correct you know because you couldn't say hey uh Matt if you uh if you build that uh that that Art Association we're going to let you have your 17 stories you can't say that so who gives um John Q developer um who gives that entity or that individual an orientation of our community where does the conversation around here's the things that matter to us uh here's here the things we value here's the way we behave um it's not documented that you better do this or you're out it's an appreciation and representation of the underlying culture and the ability they have to accelerate their involvement in a way that adds a lot of Distinction to me versus someone from another city coming in and sending their business development people making offers to the land and by rights do what they want to do whole different feeling during the interaction of the people I want to be around I don't know where that orientation happens again not back staff's responsibility to do it they're trying to follow what we give them but I wish there was some of the other communities you put it that way because that's almost like a comprehensive plan goal that's almost like talking about you know as this community redevelops we we we aspire to having folks who are coming to the island or folks who are redeveloping to have a greater impact is that making you nervous it it makes a little bit nervous I because I wouldn't and I'm looking at at Nancy again to Define the types of developers you want yes you want a good neighbor right you want a community partner and they're certainly able to say that when they they come before you but you should be judging the project on its merits and those things I mean there's such things as voluntary propers if he came and he said I want to give you know ,000 to the Fort Myers Beach Art Association that would money might would probably have to pass through the town and then we would turn that over so that we can verify that so it's you have to also think about the the enforcement and the legal structure um everybody wants a a good neighbor who's part of the community but I'm I makes me you know uncomfortable to think about defining I think we're at two different ends of the spectrum when it gets to you I agree it ought to I'm talking about much earlier than that the next when I was running the the chamber in Orlando the the chamber took full responsibility for this role and you as a CEO in that Community had to sign up to be available three or four times a year to meet with potential developers or people that want to move companies to Orlando Etc and that was a two or three hour luncheon about who we are what we are what we care about we value it's funny how that altered so their first interactions when it came to the requests then that we didn't ordain or or demand but it always show up and it kept things the way they ought to be yeah I I have seach seen that where certain um organizations and I don't is this chamber 50133 or is it but anyway certain organizations given roles within the community so um you you might be maybe not required but ask me these are the the tiered organizations that the the Town Council is going to take their input fund from that you have to um meet with first I mean I'm looking to the the attorney to to to put that legal format I I don't know if that necessarily is a requirement as much as a suggestion that these this is but again I'm a little hesitant to give any power to an outside organization that's not the the town no I I would agree with um with Judith but I think you can um have community outreach meetings I think you could require that yes this is something could yes exactly this is something that could come up in any one of these you know events that these that the developers so far have had that could be something that would be brought up in those sort of in in that sort of environment but I hadn't thought about that surprised I thought about it's a teeny tiny bit forward if Matt had come to us and said hey by the way remember the like 3,000 ft of space that was I can't remember it's like we were trying to figure out what it was or there was some space that was in the building on the not beach side that was I can't remember we were trying to figure out what it was going to be used for like is it a Convention Center whatever if Matt had come to us and said well I'm going to actually make that space available in perpetuity for a Civic organization as you know for instance you know he knows about the property across the street and what it's for right I'm going to make space available in my development for that is that a special benefit or a public benefit if he said I'm going to give the Art Association 3,000 foot to have a you know their place and a gallery is that specialit it's a special benefit okay a special benefit and it would matter yes it would absolutely matter to most everyone in this community the whole concept I know you guys like requirements because you can live safely within them I'm talking about encouragement and not Su clear communication this solves a problem right it solves a problem for this community in rebuilding it prevents a further you know maybe potentially a hurricane from damaging a Civic organization's property again and I know that's I'm just using one example there are manying the community not just rebuilding projects exactly it's not just taking that property and saying I'm going to put a bunch of residences on it or condo rental condos or now is the time to do that because there's so many options there are that it's hard to pick a priority because there's so many so let natural convergences happen and it's peanuts for a development exact it's peanuts to make that happen it's like but it's huge they're doing a great job it's it really gim's inspiring me I usually don't come up with this kind of stuff may I ask a clarifying question so previously I believe Mr mlan and and M M Saras um you mentioned how do we quantify Parks what's their value and from a environmental planning standpoint I I think it's a really really tough question but a really important question and also I would add one one additional question on on top of that is there a point when we have too many parks and their value is not worth as much or will we take every piece of land that we could possibly get and figure out how to use it later um my point returns kind of thing sort of but my my point I think largely is if we're going to look at how we're going to quantify what the output of a developer is how much skin they have in this game to your point Nita I think is the exact point at some point when you look at the the ones and zeros in front of you you're getting a signal that says this the value of phow land even if it's a a a social benefit is much more difficult to quantify than here's this built thing I'm giving you access to where I built you a bathroom um and it's it's important to me I think there's there's unquantifiable or hard to quantify social benefits that often get get kind of pushed off because nobody knows how to quantify them you know Jason when I raised that issue earlier what I was speaking specifically to was the financial notion of uh deeding property to the town if it's a passive park for example there's no Revenue stream from that it's like boom it's off and so does that become a negative in fact and like you're saying now if at some point what if we have so much park space uh that it becomes a negative impact for the town I I mean I think that might be a lovely place to have to be to deal with that problem but I I don't know how realistic that is yeah agree I the land is so incredibly expensive and valuable here there's not going to be a whole plethora of those donations made in my mind and we kind of know when it's there and the conversation will change absolutely but to me I mean I've said this about Time Square you know 50 years from now the decisions that we make right now or the council makes right now 50 years from now what do those people think about the decisions we made are they glad that the you know that the new hotel was built or are they glad that they have a place to sit and look at the beach I personally think they're glad that they have a place to sit and look at the beach um because not everybody will have access to the hotel but you know that's just my point of view but just to make our our Vision Quest here for a definition of public benefits which I think we' you know narrowed down let can we give some examples some real examples not special benefits of only public benefits so reduce I mean Jim made a list this Jim so reduced density is in the comp plan we shall reduce density wherever we have a chance to do that to me that's like an ultimate public benefit because it reduces traffic it reduces impact on on the island uh do you all agree with that sure yes yeah um view quarters we've talked about ad nauseum um publicly deed open space and beach front access that's kind of like a view quarter but not really but publicly deeded I think is super important so to me that's another good example of a public benefit um the same with parking spaces yes um Road RightWay dedication eliminating curb cuts on a stero Boulevard is that a public benefit it sure helps traffic it does you're right you're right it does do you all agree it's a public benefit I do and permanent source of periodic funding for Town infrastructure Jim I didn't I didn't understand this one um let's say that um we're going to need a new fire station uh a new Water Filtration plant anything but the particular development shouldn't bear the cost the entire cost so we talked earlier about it they make a contribution to the city the city accumul the money to do the infrastructure project I think we said $20,000 for parking spot well there are studies that will say you know at some point we're currently upgrading the storm water system well that's definitely a public benefit but the particular development would only be required to do it on site so making a contribution to the benefit of the public for a larger project how does that work yeah I let me give you a example that I thought of um kind of embedded my document a little bit under this category so this real life example so it's Friday holiday weekend um down at the end of erret truck is backing up hits the uh above ground water meter there so we have a beautiful geyser for a while to to enjoy and um Town comes and takes care of that and shut it off we immediately you're the recipient of a boil water notice until we get two consecutive days well Friday holiday weekend so Saturday Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday on our street before we had that two consecutive days and that's because we Outsource that process through proper Laboratories and proper equipment which is which is available so wouldn't it be something if one of our partners coming in said we're going to underwrite the cost of having on-site water quality so your team can do it 24 hours and Saturday or Sunday whatever they want to do because the machine sitting there and it'll do all that so 30 $50,000 for that and then the appropriate training certifications we pick up a benefit for our town and our residents that's material to sitting five days without water or with having to boil it when I think of that kind of thing that these Partners can do I see huge leaps in those little things that are nothing to them in the grand scope but really materially impact quality life here just an example that I have okay I get how it would work okay so that's definitely a public benefit so we um when we were listening when I was listening to to Jim speak um and what went off in my mind was impact fees it sound like you were describing that and that already is a component in our development agreements right not as a public benefit but the required payment um so that we have uh infrastructure in place at the time of development and how far along is the town in that process right now so um the Town Council asked that question yesterday and Sarah said she was going to get them an update so certainly we can have one for the November 12th meeting for you all um if not by next Monday at the Town council meeting um but I know that the it's access um infrastructure the company Sarah works for that's doing that process and they have met with all the town staff and they I believe that they've collected a lot of the the information but that's going to capture the impacts like you said of the specific property so if that property needs additional pumps for water I'm just coming up with things for the actual property that's why when we were talking about the development agreement we um separated out offsite improvements so what you're saying would fall under that category um and when you are doing a development agreement you you can um as we've done think about those things and it but it has to be something that is directly connected to the the property um but maybe not happening exactly within their property but happening in the right of way immediately adjacent or directly impacting their prop it could be right if it's a 17 story we might need a taller ladder truck for instance right and the town so the impact to the town could be greater right I mean there are things like that or to your point booster stations to push water up you know they you know so the the the booster for for the water pressure and I know that came up yesterday that's on the developer right so within the site right they're going to want that because they're going to want water pressure they have to have fire flow to the town the town's not going they have to automatically that's not going to be covered in the impact no but see if like for instance just to sorry just to explore so I'm in the business so Water and Sewer so if uh is the main that's going down a stero Boulevard large enough to provide the capacity for the boosters to actually push the water I think it is but I'm just saying as an example you know that would be a hey you've got to actually increase the size of the pipe from point A to point B to get you the water pressure and that's a that could be a special impact fee for that development yeah I mean and that's true in the in the reverse in the sewer as well making those and that capacity well the same would be true for oversizing too right right but we may have to pay the county for sewer treatment right so we may need to pay them impact fees for you know if that's 10,000 per equivalent residential connection then we're going to charge them 10,000 times that at the town because we're going to just pass that right through the county the town doesn't get a benefit from that though and that's what I think we need to be careful with there are actual costs to the town for a development to occur and that needs to be collected and then that's that's sort of the minimum that's what required and then if there's anything additional like I don't know what it would be to your point something that's different and out of the ordinary that the town wants or a ladder truck you know hey we need an extra million dollars to you know have a truck that has a long enough ladder you know kind of thing so again there's ways around I know around that but you know that that would be a probably a poor example but there may be something like that but not to get too granular but these kind of things end up mattering um the amount of water pressure going down that big main um I'm I'm volunteering to help the one of the condo units boards navigate through our process um just because they can't do it on their own you know these people aren't used to this so as we're going to the the 50% stuff and all that obviously the fire pump in there for their building became a big issue so uh we spent some time with the fire department and learned um because of where they sit on the main if your PSA going front of that building is sufficient you can put a tap on there at your cost and not have to put a fire pump under the building for all those residents now it was an extraordinary uh elimination of of an expense that they wouldn't had but if we had those kind of conversations with people that are doing infrastructure all the condo units to some degree of scale could benefit financially and maintenance wise Etc and insurance by not having to make an investment individually but collectively this was an impact to the town and that's a live example that we literally just got signed off and and done so this can matter under this infrastructure thing Beyond Way Beyond the development itself right completely agree I don't even know where to put that you know that's not my area but you're absolutely right well trying to on the point is there are benefits or there are things the town could get from new development yeah maybe like an example like this um so I want to put in a 17 story building I know I'm going to need fire pumps and everything but also the town has a a booster pumping station on the by the bridge that where it gets water from Lee County and that the town's pumping station needs work it got damaged in the hurricane I'm going to make a contribution yeah to fixing that pumping station I mean that would be a probably a reasonable example what you're talking about in real life and it could happen now way before the development ever happens right it could help the town accelerate it its uh restoration soon as they get their approval I think you're saying right so if I if I could yeah so one again it's got to have a when we're talking about a specific project it's got to have a direct Nexus if we're requiring it if it's a voluntary profer on behalf of the developer that falls in a different category but if we're just because we're we're at 11 o' um thinking about the the the the the second half of this so if you're requiring or asking for these things what are they getting in return if because if if that's how we're still thinking about this height versus public benefit um or or something else because I think we're there's lots of things we can we can um we can ask for but the developer is going to want to know like what what am I required to do in exchange for what I would like to do if that's where we're but the most compelling things are not just those that you require they're those that you offer in addition to what's required back to a setback so I know why you're concerned and you continue to remind us of that and that's the right thing for you to do I think very few of these get embedded in thou will if they if they they wantse requ right right but to make the concepts available of the examples available because there's too much I don't know what you guys really want I'm trying to create it so stop as short of putting into something you don't think is enforcable or doesn't have a Nexus shouldn't elimin us from have the conversation of what we want value and we like people to offer to to be part of so maybe that's an important distinction when when you have this conversation with Town Council so there there's part like there public benefit what we have in the comp plan what we have in the in the code where we're talking about the benefit versus the height so you're going to get some more feed and this is the but then we're talking about additional other things that are Town goals maybe um or or enumerating that some other way so that when a developer comes in and we're going to have a development agreement conversation about um but th this actually goes to what Jim said early and nobody thinks that the staff should be empowered to do that these negotiations should be happening at a different level whether it's here at Town Council but there's no so I reason not in a development agreement to be able to put all of these things on a list and negotiate them with them so I 100% agree with you staff does not want to be involved in those things but how it's the development agreement is set up right now um that's not the process so the process and I don't know if Nancy you want to go over that how that's specifically set up is for that negotiation to take place and then bring it to you bring to us and that's where we got uncomfortable to be and and I would I understand that and I know that um the town manager and the staff and the attorney negotiated that document before we saw it that is absolutely right and when the other Council I sat on another Community the town manager in the same week former government week mayor former government we have was part of the present presentation group to the city council to us around why they negotiate what they did and how they got there actually co-authored if you will or certainly was was kingle with it what I would want a town manager to have is a document that says get these things in the conversation yeah nothing illegal about that and then when you come to see us on Council you will represent how those negotiations went and we started from here and these got added and I don't think there's anything wrong with that no I think that would be extremely helpful that's what I'm used to seeing from develop when you look at the document that's what Sarah was trying to represent yesterday it says have you provided us with these things and yes you provided us with but they're ministerial in nature I mean they're just exactly right we need to survey of the property we need a legal description you know I mean all and which they they of course provided to us but then it when it got to the so I think that makes sense that's how we marry the two visions attorney is the the official but we don't necessarily uh make value judgments as to what the special benefit or the public benefit is our role is really to find to make sure that whatever is negotiated by staff and the town manager that it's legally enforcable um we are a little bit more reactor reactor I can't say the word reaction re yeah there you go um just like at today's meeting I mean you all are having the conversation and then I'm going to go back and make sure that what you're proposing is is okay under Florida and federal law it's almost like we're proposing two two two paths uh or two maybe two documents the the actual zoning process that is the development agreement and then a another maybe another document that embodies all the things we've brought up here as um I don't know as a as topics or as as but that could be in the comp plan it doesn't you don't have to create a whole new docum not going if sewer and water infrastructure is a goal and that should be problem something considered we can you know I mean I believe it's already in the comp plan but so we can identify what those things are to create to create the next yes okay got it and I don't think we need new words these are definitely public benefits yes they are public benefit in the subcategories we have now under that I think it fits there I wouldn't over complicate it yeah I just want to empower it illuminate it make it that kind of conversation that you want to be part of if you want to come to our town so the other thing I want to add is that the consistency with the comprehensive plan is vital to these development agreements because if you are inconsistent with the comp plan that pretty much ends the conversation so so if we if we start with a definition of a public benefit as something that is accessible I'm using your words now Jim accessible to or for the benefit of all in a unique with unique uh nature or physical location for a Perpetual commitment to the town of Fort Meyers Beach we've we've kind of ballooned or B Blossom that that's what a public benefit is and then the details and then a special benefit is something that is exclusive to a to a subgroup to a particular group of people and then and then in the examples you know once it meets that threshold uh the examples we we've pretty much itemized as things that are are examples of that and hopefully could be embodied yeah I I think that would be something that we can um further evaluate and and perhaps move forward with so um what I have in my notes is provide examples of other public benefits which is cross referenced back to your comprehensive plan language in the LDC for administration of height requests um as examples in your LDC section 34- 631 um and then perhaps include first a sentence uh embodying the definition that you've proposed and then follow it up with some these are some examples um and then also propose changes to 2.16 in your um procedures to add um public benefits special benefits or public benefits and to include amenities as a special benefit and to um there's just a change to affordable housing to Workforce housing that's what I have so far the only thing we have not touched on is where does it get you what does it get you can it get you 17 stories can it only get you 10 not going to get me to go there I don't want to quantify that that's but I do want to back to what Jud was saying um you know I had a hard stop I got another board meeting get to so I just want to make sure where you started with this was what's the next step the timing and how how do we get this to council so if you don't mind no I'm still here to participate a little bit in that it's we've made some progress I'm sure we have further to go but I also don't want to miss the opportunity to publicly put out what we think we're going to do with this and what we think that ought to look like um so Nancy the next step for you is to quantify what we've discussed here today and put it in a document form yes and then that will be discussed at the 12th at the 12th we'll discuss it at the 12 okay and hopefully um sometime between now and the 12th the Town Council will set a date for a joint meeting uh where we can finalize something here and in the meantime we're going to have all sorts of cases come forward so I think the sheer fact that we've had this discussion puts folks on alert so whether it's a joint meeting or whether or not they have a discussion along the lines that we're having and then we get together like most hous of Congress do and then have a compromise committee at least we have everybody on a conceptual record so can I ask you a question on the document I don't want to viol any law that's why I ask you so when you create that um does that come to us for review part of the 12 or does it go to the public domain all the same time well it'll come to you for review but your agenda and all its backup materials that is do we get ahead of time to before it's on the agenda before the agenda is published are you going to send it to that us not NE that's usually not part of our process but if you have questions then you could call me could could because Jim has invested so much time and this Jim has invested so much time in this could we ask you to send it to get input from these two members on this they can call I I can have a conversation with them um a lot of times what happens is before um well usually it's after an agenda goes out there's individual conversations with members of boards and Council after the fact what about what about in the process of so if I have questions um interpreting the materials that they've provided I can call them draft review a draft review a draft review got a draft review Nancy how about that how about giving me the discretion if I need to ask questions okay whatever whatever I just I just you know I know how important this is but but I have not given it the Deep dive that you have or that you have or or or or these guys that are in that field you know but so not to miss an opportunity there's I think Council has an MMP on the seven can we get our document into the conversation for that agenda because we're not meeting again the 12th our draft we could give them a summary of what you've discussed today today but I would not sum summary is good I like it yeah because I don't want to misrepresent in writing what what I'm hearing today it a summary would be good to them so at least we know we're on the right track because I'll tell you what this morning I had a conversation with somebody because I was like I said I was feeling discombobulated because I don't know if I'm on the right track or not I really don't know I don't know I'm very yeah I don't know so be nice to have some direction maybe they look at this or listen to what we've said and say ah it's a bunch of you know whatever um it'd be nice to know because I I have other things I could spend my on of we can give them a summary of what's been discussed today do you think that would be helpful Judith I mean a summary to let them know what's been happening but I think really the meeting what I wanted to avoid is is you presenting us information and then us presenting it back to the Town Council without you all there right so that's why I think the joint meeting is really essential but certainly a summary of what we discussed I think a joint meeting can be a conclusionary meeting sure clarifying and distillation meeting the conceptual meeting I think unpolluted with that Back in Forth we get their opinions and their attitudes on the record a bit so they can influence the document and then we have whatever that joint meeting looks like together and my goal in going to that bid we're going to come out with a subst substantial amount of agreement on things popr the other thing to keep in mind too is that there we will need to schedule comp plan public input meetings and so that question can also be asked to the public at that time if you feel like that's appropriate and then after that is finalized then I I assume there's going to be Land Development code public meetings so as we're we're thinking about how these things get added into and and formalized so I don't know when you're envisioning like because you're you're saying the the the joint meeting would be the stage no for our for our our role in that public reaction and feedback and whatever the right way is to do all that the more the the merrier I think Judith the whole idea is to get off go because if this has been talked about and talked about and it's like let's just say here's what it is and so we eliminate I mean if I hear another time we don't know what we can do well yes you do know what you can do here's the plan this is what you can do what you don't know is what you can get and what you need to do to get something so if we could memorialize that the sooner that we do this the better for the residents and for the developers and for you guys so Judith I know that there was originally we've had a couple storms come through but um what is the thought for the larger Community meetings that we've been talking about that Andy was talking about for U comp plan comp plan I'm not 100% sure there is an outside Consultant Group who has been handling the the comp plan and so we have to schedule them um uh you know the the storms obviously changed everything and so we would we would like to do it before the the end of the year but I don't I don't want to speak to that I don't know exactly when that's been scheduled that's fair I just want to make sure that it's still F Center because it's really important the the comp plan has to come first we can't really deal with the the Land Development code till the comp plan is done that's why I'm asking about I I think it makes sense for you to to have this meeting with the Town Council so you all are on the same page and you've had that discussion and then the public can maybe opine on on where you've come to and tell you all whether they're they're in agreement and then we put that into the comp plan and then maybe there's another meeting before the you know the Land Development code and that that public process but I'll I'll talk to to um Sarah and you know the town manager about when the Envision yeah yeah I mean I think this is incredibly valuable because it at least puts out what our opinions perspectives it's it's out there and I'm certain that council is going to watch and understand some of what we see some are here I just want some closure well yeah listen we're not all going to we're all not going to agree but we all certainly need to get it out there um what of thinking right so let's let's just continue to shed light on all of that I mean okay okay well I hope this was valuable and uh and we'll do it again and so Jim I'd just ask you to be in touch with Nancy and Jim and I may be in touch with the rest of you guys too just so you know good good F good Anita uh I need to ask I am not going to be able to make the November 12th meeting okay which I feel bad about but I just can't make it we'll we'll excuse you yeah thank you you're welcome you're welcome I'm glad you guys were all appointed and does anybody else want to say anything before we say we're going to leave motion to adjourn thank you it's 11:24 and we stand adjourn thank you